[Article] The Future of Legacy

[Machinus]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12762.html

[JACO]

Chris, I thought this was an interesting article for a few reasons. You laid out specific examples of what and why to unban specific things, and everybody will have their own opinions on those issues of course.

They should definitely not unban Vampiric Tutor, however, if you seek a balanced format. There would be no reason to play anything other than combo or combo-control if this was available. I'm not positive, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Imperial Seal would do the same thing.

I think there is already a good amount of fast mana available in the format, so I don't see Grim Monolith coming off the list anytime soon, nor something like Mana Vault. I also wouldn't want to see Replenish unbanned either.

Overall, I think your ideas and writing were very clear and concise, and applaud your efforts to encourage others to voice their opinion in a public forum of some sort, and to make their thoughts known to the DCI.

Personally, I never believed in Wizards' assertion that Chaos Orb and Falling Star should be banned because of 'manual dexterity' issues that they have cited. If you can't attempt to flip a Chaos Orb, how can you reasonably be expected to sufficiently shuffle and randomize your deck, and your opponent's deck, multiple times in a game (and match) of Magic? That being said, if I had any say on what would be unbanned, it would probably start with the following:
Chaos Orb
Falling Star
Dream Halls
Mind Over Matter

I think the current Banned list is very well maintained, with those exceptions. BUT, I would like to see what comes out of the new Time Spiral block. There appear to be some very powerful cards coming out that could potentially be degenerate in Legacy, so I'd like to see the impact of those over a couple of months before making any other decisions.

[The Marco]

2 articles about Legacy in the same week...wow what is going on!

Nice article, great job educating the limited and standard players about what Legacy is about...

I agree with most of what you said in the article!

Again very nice, we need more people to advertise the format like that to the masses!

[_erbs_]

I agree on what JACO had pointed out that with Time Sprial about to come out, its much better to wait and see then have a final decision on B/R list for legacy.

Currently for me legacy looks like standard using old cards, almost all decks are aggro, the amount of control or prison type decks aren't that visible.

Nice article though. I do hope metalworker do get unbanned :laugh:

[dontbiteitholmes]

Chris, I thought this was an interesting article for a few reasons. You laid out specific examples of what and why to unban specific things, and everybody will have their own opinions on those issues of course.

They should definitely not unban Vampiric Tutor, however, if you seek a balanced format. There would be no reason to play anything other than combo or combo-control if this was available. I'm not positive, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Imperial Seal would do the same thing.

I think there is already a good amount of fast mana available in the format, so I don't see Grim Monolith coming off the list anytime soon, nor something like Mana Vault. I also wouldn't want to see Replenish unbanned either.

Overall, I think your ideas and writing were very clear and concise, and applaud your efforts to encourage others to voice their opinion in a public forum of some sort, and to make their thoughts known to the DCI.

Personally, I never believed in Wizards' assertion that Chaos Orb and Falling Star should be banned because of 'manual dexterity' issues that they have cited. If you can't attempt to flip a Chaos Orb, how can you reasonably be expected to sufficiently shuffle and randomize your deck, and your opponent's deck, multiple times in a game (and match) of Magic? That being said, if I had any say on what would be unbanned, it would probably start with the following:
Chaos Orb
Falling Star
Dream Halls
Mind Over Matter

I think the current Banned list is very well maintained, with those exceptions. BUT, I would like to see what comes out of the new Time Spiral block. There appear to be some very powerful cards coming out that could potentially be degenerate in Legacy, so I'd like to see the impact of those over a couple of months before making any other decisions.
First off there would be a page and a half of Chaos Orb related rules. Second I will come to tourneys with a magnetic board and magnetic tape to Orb proof my permanents (like people did when Orb was legal). Third Chaos Orb is one of the most broken cards in Magic. If you didn't notice it's not hard to flip and it is basically an artifact version of Vindicate that sometimes hits multiple cards. Oh, and Chaos Orb would cost like $400 a peice if it was legal.
*Edit* Wow Orb destroys everything it touches (unlike Falling Star which damages everything it lands on) just did an experiment and yeah it's pretty easy to flip it kinda foward and make it slide into multiple cards.

Flames Deleted. Warning. ~ Nightmare

[raudo]

Yeah, and if there were Chaos Orbs one should use ruler or something to measure if the cards are 1 cm apart or 10 cm apart from each other. But I hope JACO was just joking.. he must be.. :rolleyes:

[Finn]

Chill, Holmes. He clearly didn't know the reason Orb and Falling Star were banned in the first place. You could have just told him about dexterity cards being banned instead of laying into him.

This is why my friends refuse to post on this site.

[Nightmare]

Chill, Holmes. He clearly didn't know the reason Orb and Falling Star were banned in the first place. You could have just told him about dexterity cards being banned instead of laying into him.

This is why my friends refuse to post on this site.While Dontbiteitholmes is clearly overreacting, if your friends are for the unbanning of Chaos Orb, it's just as well. If I had seen this post before you, it would be a non-issue. This is what the "report post" button is for.

Don'tbiteit - There's no reason to flame him. Education is better than insult.

[Hoojo]

Just read your article, and I found it very well written and educating.

On Vampiric/Imperial tutor being unbanned, my only thought is that these cards are heavily used in Vintage in restricted formats. Granted, they grab better stuff than we have, I just thought maybe the proper baby step would be Demonic Consultation. Did you approach the Vampiric/Imperial route because of comparability to the other Mirage tutors?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I thought it was a logically written article. The analysis of Land Tax is overly optimistic; true control is dependent on land drops, allowing any aggro or aggro control deck in existence to 'counter' Land Tax by simply not dropping their next land until you do. I'd also disagree with the statements about the viability of control, but that seems a little beside the point. It's high time that R&D actually thought about the bannings in Legacy: the vast majority of the cards on that list have never proven themselves broken in a format anything like Legacy. This doesn't mean they should be unbanned all at once, but it's very easy for chicken little reactionaries to respond to every potential unbanning by screaming about how R&D wouldn't have put the ard on there without a good reason.

I would agree with the initial five unbannings. Other considerations that allow for powerful, actual playable, dare I say fun interactions but are unlikely to be truly metagame warping (and if they are, ban them then) would be Metal Worker, Oath of Druids, Worldgorger Dragon, Mind's Desire and Mind Twist.

I also have to mention again that the constant cries of, "Let's not discuss any changes yet; let's wait for such-and-such to happen" are a death-knell to progress. There will always be some new set and some new event on the horizon, yet it is not advisable or desirable to always be standing still waiting for someone to tell you what to do.

[Jander78]

Good Article Chris!


Just read your article, and I found it very well written and educating.

On Vampiric/Imperial tutor being unbanned, my only thought is that these cards are heavily used in Vintage in restricted formats. Granted, they grab better stuff than we have, I just thought maybe the proper baby step would be Demonic Consultation. Did you approach the Vampiric/Imperial route because of comparability to the other Mirage tutors?

Demonic Consultation is a whole turn faster than Vampiric Imperial. It puts the card right in your hand instead of on top of your library.



I would agree with the initial five unbannings. Other considerations that allow for powerful, actual playable, dare I say fun interactions but are unlikely to be truly metagame warping (and if they are, ban them then) would be Metal Worker, Oath of Druids, Worldgorger Dragon, Mind's Desire and Mind Twist.
I too agree with the initial five unbannings posted. And I also agree with all of the cards Jack has listed besides Mind's Desire. I still think that card is too strong in this format.

[FakeSpam]

Just read your article, and I found it very well written and educating.

On Vampiric/Imperial tutor being unbanned, my only thought is that these cards are heavily used in Vintage in restricted formats. Granted, they grab better stuff than we have, I just thought maybe the proper baby step would be Demonic Consultation. Did you approach the Vampiric/Imperial route because of comparability to the other Mirage tutors?

Demonic Consultation is much more powerful than vamperic tutor.




The problem with unbanning in legacy is, unlike Vintage, you go from being able to play 0 cards to playing 4.

Some cards that are on the list exist for no reason:

Land tax, Replenish, Mind over Matter, Entomb, etc.

While the others are very big no-nos. I agree with the majority of your list. Vamperic Tutor seems a little too powerful for the current state of the format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If they unbanned Worldgorger and Entomb at once, could we expect Syracuse to actually start playing Magic again?


Pre-empt: Sundering Titan + Reanimate is arguably much more unfair than WGD + Animate Dead, as it never allows for StP, Naturalize, or Stifle to be cheap preventive answers that also incidentally win you the game.

[Hoojo]

Demonic Consultation is much more powerful than vamperic tutor.

I understand that funtionally it is, but it sees no play in Vintage where it's legal. I understand that is also puts the card in your hand, just like Spoils of the Vault. My point is, if Vampiric/Imperial Tutor is seeing play in Vintage, why isn't Demonic Consultation? If the answer is it isn't powerful enough, wouldn't that mean that Vampiric/Imperial is more powerful than Consultation?

Legacy is not Vintage, but I wanted to clarify my point. Spoils is functionally more powerful than Vampiric/Imperial; it puts the card in your hand, costs the same, and is an instant, but it only sees minor play in Legacy and no play in Vintage, unless your playing budget.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a banned discussion. I was just wanting to hear a little more on why Mechinus chose Vampiric/Imperial over the other tutors.

[Nightmare]

I understand that funtionally it is, but it sees no play in Vintage where it's legal. I understand that is also puts the card in your hand, just like Spoils of the Vault. My point is, if Vampiric/Imperial Tutor is seeing play in Vintage, why isn't Demonic Consultation? If the answer is it isn't powerful enough, wouldn't that mean that Vampiric/Imperial is more powerful than Consultation?

Legacy is not Vintage, but I wanted to clarify my point. Spoils is functionally more powerful than Vampiric/Imperial; it puts the card in your hand, costs the same, and is an instant, but it only sees minor play in Legacy and no play in Vintage, unless your playing budget.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a banned discussion. I was just wanting to hear a little more on why Mechinus chose Vampiric/Imperial over the other tutors.I can answer this. Demonic Consultation is AMAZING at getting a 4 of into your hand. Demonic Consultation is AWFUL at getting a 1 of into your hand. Vintage Combo decks (the decks that would use Consultation) are so full of 1 ofs that it's nearly impossible to guarantee sucess with Consult, and often you end up either milling yourself to death, or losing enough relevant cards to make wahtever you tutored for irrelevant. In Legacy, on the other hand, Consult becomes Demonic Tutor for 1 mana less, since most decks - even combo - are mostly 4 ofs.

[FakeSpam]

Metal Worker, Oath of Druids, Worldgorger Dragon, Mind's Desire and Mind Twist.

What is in that pipe you smoke?

[AnwarA101]

I also have to mention again that the constant cries of, "Let's not discuss any changes yet; let's wait for such-and-such to happen" are a death-knell to progress. There will always be some new set and some new event on the horizon, yet it is not advisable or desirable to always be standing still waiting for someone to tell you what to do.

I have to agree with this statement. Cards are always being added to Legacy so this condition will never be satisfied. There will always be a new set that is coming out and it will obviously affect Legacy.

I also agree with the theme of the article and that is that change doesn't necessarily have to be bad. Wizards seems overly concerned that something might go wrong so they just continue to keep the list the same. I'm glad someone from the Legacy community made this point in print. If Wizards isn't going to have any major events for Legacy in the near future then why not take a chance on the B/R list?

[JACO]

First off there would be a page and a half of Chaos Orb related rules. Second I will come to tourneys with a magnetic board and magnetic tape to Orb proof my permanents (like people did when Orb was legal). Third Chaos Orb is one of the most broken cards in Magic. If you didn't notice it's not hard to flip and it is basically an artifact version of Vindicate that sometimes hits multiple cards. Oh, and Chaos Orb would cost like $400 a peice if it was legal.
*Edit* Wow Orb destroys everything it touches (unlike Falling Star which damages everything it lands on) just did an experiment and yeah it's pretty easy to flip it kinda foward and make it slide into multiple cards.

If you want to be the tool who carries around a magnetic board to a tournament, that's fine with me. I would still play Chaos Orb and gladly destroy one of your permanents at a time. It is quite like Vindicate, except that it can be Stifled or Pithing Needled, and it requires a degree of skill to flip it correctly (I own a couple of them, and I and other friends test them). The cost of a card is irrelevant, until the DCI decides it has become too great a barrier of entry. With one proper errata Chaos Orb would be perfectly acceptable in a tournament environment, and wouldn't require a page and a half of related rules. Your reasons don't provide an adequate response to why it shouldn't be unbanned.

That aside, why don't you guys actually talk about Chris' article? I don't think it was meant to solely talk about the Banned/Restricted list, but to nudge others to speak their mind, whether it's about the B/R list, or the DCI penalty system (Jack Elgin, I'm looking in your direction), or whatever else.

[quicksilver]

If you want to be the tool who carries around a magnetic board to a tournament, that's fine with me. I would still play Chaos Orb and gladly destroy one of your permanents at a time. It is quite like Vindicate, except that it can be Stifled or Pithing Needled, and it requires a degree of skill to flip it correctly (I own a couple of them, and I and other friends test them). The cost of a card is irrelevant, until the DCI decides it has become too great a barrier of entry. With one proper errata Chaos Orb would be perfectly acceptable in a tournament environment, and wouldn't require a page and a half of related rules. Your reasons don't provide an adequate response to why it shouldn't be unbanned.

That aside, why don't you guys actually talk about Chris' article? I don't think it was meant to solely talk about the Banned/Restricted list, but to nudge others to speak their mind, whether it's about the B/R list, or the DCI penalty system (Jack Elgin, I'm looking in your direction), or whatever else.

You would need rules to prevent things like what if your opponent rearranges their cards on the table in reponse, do you need to have a judge measure the hieght you drop it from, what if your opponent makes all of their cards 10 feet apart, or puts them up right next to yours, or stacks them in a pile. Or what if they rip their chaos orb into pieces then sprinkle in on their opponent's cars. Or what if they throw it down at an angle so it touches a bunch of cards as it slides across the table, how the hell do you rule that? There would just be so many rules involved that magic doesn't keep track of, not to mention it could never be done in an online environment. My god this list goes on forever, there is absolutly no way they would ever make these cards tournement legal.

[Alfred]

Guys, Oath of Druids would ruin the format. I don't know why any of you would agree with it's unbanning.

[Nightmare]

Guys, Oath of Druids would ruin the format. I don't know why any of you would agree with it's unbanning.Because Turboland is a fun deck, and I want it to be good again?

[Alfred]

Because Turboland is a fun deck, and I want it to be good again?

At least you're honest ;)

[dahcmai]

Some cards that are on the list exist for no reason:

Land tax, Replenish, Mind over Matter, Entomb, etc.



The reason those are still on is because of some nasty little combos that existed back in the day that would still be impressive.

Replenish still has the pandeburst combo which would be quite easy with todays Lotus petals being around. Even the cheesy Wave and Tide thing would be hard to deal with.

Land tax would bring back Scroll tax. One very good Legacy deck. Though I would be interested to see how it would hold up under today's decks. I think this one might be worth arguing over considering Solidarity and Iggy pop are now faster decks than it was. There isn't anything that can meet it's card drawing power though today. Loam decks would go nuts, that's for sure.

Ok, Mind over matter still sucks. That Urza's Blueprints trick is pretty funny though.

Entomb - One of my favorite cards of all time. It won me entirely too many 1.5 tournies though playing my favorite Reanimator. Nothing like 1st turn Dark Ritual, Entomb, get Nicol Bolas, Shallow grave him, Hit for 7 and take their hand. It's truly evil and amazingly easy to do, espeically with the newer cards to make it redundant.

[Complete_Jank]

I read your article, and I have to say that I disagree with most of what you wrote.

The fact that you say some cards are on the Banned list could be dealt with by Goblins, Threshold, or Solidarity should it be unbanned is not a good argument.

The Banned list provides the format that we now have. You are right in saying that many of those cards should they become unbanned, would be able to be dealt with by the top three decks, but most of the other decks in the format could not deal with what unbanning them would release.

Thus if you unban some of the cards you mentioned, you force the Format to shift. Players either play the better cards that are now unbanned, or play one of the top 3 decks that can deal with the unbanned cards. This will create less diversity in the format which is bad, because people will get tired of seeing the same decks over and over.

It will bring forth a decrease in the interest of this format, and that is something we are already fighting.



As for the cards you mentioned that should be unbanned.

Mind Over Matter, I agree should be unbanned.

Land Tax, unsure whether it should be unbanned, but I don't think it is something that many decks couldn't deal with.

Entomb, No this card should not be unbanned, IT GETS ANY CARD, and will go into other deck other than Reanimator. It will force every deck to run Graveyard hate, something I don't think should have to be done.

Hermit Druid, this should stay banned as well. I remember playing against it and I went off with my Aggro-Combo turn 2 just as the other player did, and only being able to provide blockers and stalling till turn 5. This is too quick and consistant for this format.

Replenish, Simply said, "NO." Keep it on the Banned list, thank you.

Grim Monolith, Again too much mana accel will lead to nothing but combo, and the fact that one card can make this go infinite is supporting the fact that this too should remain on the Banned list.


One card that I think could be unbanned is TIME SPIRAL.

It is possible that it would make Solidarity stronger, however I think that because of the deck's design, and the casting cost of Time Spiral, it would not be able to fit it into the deck, and if it did try and fit it in it would be like fitting it into spring tide rather than solidarity. Overall, it wouldn't impove the deck, just change the approach of an already strong deck.


And Jaco, lol, you'd lose to your own Chaos Orb. :tongue:

[troopatroop]

If they unbanned Worldgorger Dragon, this would be a much better format. It would actually lead to a consistant turn 3 combo deck that can disrupt your opponent. Without Bazaar, it's power level wouldn't be broken, and it still loses to STP/Disenchant/Stifle.

At any rate, the power level of the format needs to get higher, IMO.

[Angel of Despair]

All I have to say is look at my Sig....\/

[Bryant Cook]

Guys, Oath of Druids would ruin the format. I don't know why any of you would agree with it's unbanning.

Because it would cause a metagame shift. Our format is pretty damn stagnant right now, which is why alot of people think it's boring. I'm not saying unban Oath at all, but if Oath of Druids was unbanned Gro would suck, goblins would once again become inferior, and Solidarity would have a Control deck that can race them. Do we want a metagame shift? I'm not sure, our tier structure hardly ever changes. Even in old 1.5, is this possibly one of the reasons the B/r list was changed? Will it happen again? Or they could just unban Oath and cause all hell. I'm fairly sure if wizards wants the format to quit being stagnant they'll unban Oath before another dramatic B/r list. All I'm saying is that unbanning Oath of Druids isn't completely out of the question.

[Bardo]

Our format is pretty damn stagnant right now, which is why alot of people think it's boring.

I'd really fault the players' lack of creativity and ingenuity (not to mention, knowledge of the past) on this one, and not the card pool.

[quicksilver]

I am in favor of unbanning many questionable cards. And if they are too broken, ehh, so what? Not like there are any major tournements soon. Wizards can just put them back on the banned list again. If anything it will shake things up for a little bit. But I am definatly in favor of having as few as possible cards on the banned list.

[Bryant Cook]

I'd really fault the players' lack of creativity and ingenuity (not to mention, knowledge of the past) on this one, and not the card pool.

I'm not argueing against you on this but many people are quite creative, I for one am always creating decks on MWS. Just because you don't see it on an internet site doesn't mean it's not happening, which many people don't take into consideration. As for knowledge of the past, I mean it helps a little bit but it's not terribly important that little Timmy or Johnny knows about the wrath of Landstill or the few years Dragon dominated the metagame.

[Machinus]

I added a little more about Replenish and Vamp in the other thread (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30252.new#new).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If anyone is wondering, the reason that these threads invariably end in being locked is not because people disagree vehemently on cards being on or off of the banned list. It's because idiots feel the need to make posts that contain absolutely no argument besides saying that "This card is busted; it has to stay banned, duh."


Cards are banned for being broken, and presumed innocent until proven otherwise. This is how it works in other, non-Eternal constructed formats, with a couple of exceptions like Entomb in current Extended. If you think a card is too powerful, please, cite instances of the degenerate things it would do, don't just stand there smugly with the presumption that the card would ruin the world. When Fact or Fiction, Regrowth, Lotus Petal, and Doomsday were banned, people made very similar statements about how these cards were too good for 1.5- the irony? This was at a time when Metal Worker, Worldgorger Dragon, and Oath of Druids were all legal. And the last one of those three wasn't even a blip on the radar.

Now, another heads up for anyone that doesn't know:

Land Tax can only grab basic lands.

Please. Stop talking about Life from the Loam. Life from the Loam made Land Tax obsolete on so many levels. I don't know the last time that you checked a Loam deck, but most of them run 0 basics. They'd have to cut superior lands to fix their three color mana bases, which are generally a necessity to get their cycling CA engine kicking via Onslaught cycling lands, as well as providing whichever tools whichever LftL deck we're talking about is using, just to fit in the three basics to get one activation off of Land Tax running, in addition to cutting four useful cards to fit in the Land Taxes. And, as these decks are inherently mana greedy, they would have to bring a basket of muffins to use as "incentive" to convince their Goblin and Gro opponents to actually make land drops beyond 1-2. What do you do if your opponent has already eaten today?

[frogboy]

Most decks that would play Land Tax (i.e. white based control) are going to get mauled by Gro anyway. You can't play Tax against Gro, because they can just play land, Mongoose and kill you with it. Even if you do get to the point where you have land, all Gro has to do is run out guy, guy, counter your Wrath, and Armageddon.

I do think that if Vampiric Tutor was unbanned that Cephalid Life would become a significant contender.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Eh, uh, Machinus? Any thoughts about Metalworker or Earthcraft?

[Michael Keller]

Because it would cause a metagame shift. Our format is pretty damn stagnant right now, which is why alot of people think it's boring.

Q.....F.....T

[Complete_Jank]

Eh, uh, Machinus? Any thoughts about Metalworker or Earthcraft?

Earthcraft, maybe.


Metalworker should be a permanate member of the banned list.

Sadly I say this, as I loved playing him, and winning on turn two, even with out Workshop. Yes he is disruptable, but he is just that good.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Earthcraft, maybe.


Metalworker should be a permanate member of the banned list.

Sadly I say this, as I loved playing him, and winning on turn two, even with out Workshop. Yes he is disruptable, but he is just that good.

You see, my thinking with Metalworker is that since Legacy is filled with so much creature removal, that it isn't that big of a threat. Also, Meddling Mage can prevent it from ever coming into play, and Pithing Needle makes it worthless. Since all of those cards see extensive play, Metalworker shouldn't really change anything other than making Prison decks more viable.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Land Tax needs to be unbanned. Sorry it just sucks. Obviously Life/Loam is about 100x better being that it is basically counter/discard proof, doesn't require you to miss land drops for it to be good, and has synergy with itself what dredge and all. Land Tax only grabs basic lands (how many basic lands you trying to run hoss?), is conditional, and is a very poor topdeck in the late game. Despite Land Tax being good in old Ext. it is poor with Scroll Rack in Legacy which is a laughable combo that comes online turn 3 and doesn't win the game in any sense except exchanging basic lands for actual cards if you're lucky.

Mind Over Matter is also a bad card that needs to come of the list. It really doesn't do anything that can't be done better without coming in the form of a 7 MANA ENCHANTMENT.

These two cards should come off the list ASAP they should already be off. I think they should do these two then let it go to the next banning/unbanning before unbanning more since I don't trust the DCI to use logic and such properly.

Oath of Druids should never be unbanned as long as Forbidden Orchard is legal. IBA's post seems to ignore that Orchard came out in Champions which has a lot to do with Oath not making a splash in 1.5, well that and the top 3 decks were Landstill, Dragon, and Workshop based. Also ignored are that people called Petal and Fact or Fiction broken partly because Mana Drain and Dragon were legal. Not to mention in the same period refered to by IBA Skullclamp was unbanned as well as Goblin Recruiter and neither saw play yet strangly were missing from his arguement.

Also all the people trying to unban Metalworker will be the first to be like, "SAVE US FROM STAFF OF DOMINATION", if that were to ever happen.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Also all the people trying to unban Metalworker will be the first to be like, "SAVE US FROM STAFF OF DOMINATION", if that were to ever happen.

And God said let there be Oxidize, Krosan Grip, Naturalize, etc.

[FakeSpam]

The reason those are still on is because of some nasty little combos that existed back in the day that would still be impressive.


No.

[dontbiteitholmes]

And God said let there be Oxidize, Krosan Grip, Naturalize, etc.And on the second turn God dropped Trinisphere followed by Wastelands, Ports, Chalices, Winter Orbs, and Smokestacks. Then the masses flocked to Vintage and Extended.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

And on the second turn God dropped Trinisphere followed by Wastelands, Ports, Chalices, Winter Orbs, and Smokestacks. Then the masses flocked to Vintage and Extended.

And on the third turn God said let there be Shattering Spree, or something like that? You got me good on that one.

Plus, they would all flee to Extended, as Vintage has more Prison than Legacy would.

[Lego]

Plus, they would all flee to Extended, as Vintage has more Prison than Legacy would.

Pure speculation, but it's quite possible that Metalworker could make Legacy Stax better than Vintage Stax. Or at the very least relatively better.

[MattH]

I would sooner unban Mox Emerald than Vampiric Tutor.

[Lego]

unban Mox Emerald

No one would play this anyway. Green is the worst color in magic.

[Watcher487]

No one would play this anyway. Green is the worst color in magic.

Uhhhh I would.... and hopefully get 4 of them before they became about a thousand each.

[Bane of the Living]

Metal Worker is forever banned from Legacy. He cannot co-exist with Voltaic Key, and artifact lands. No way.

[Warmonger]

I agree with lots of statements included in article.
-Mind over Matter does and will do nothing.
-Dream Halls does more, but it's too slow to worry about possible build.
-The same is true for Time Spiral. It's just overkill.
-Yawgmoth's Bargain and even Mind's Desire are also crappy because of their cost - could you imagine them beeing faster than current decks?
-Land Tax gives enermous card advantage, but it's much harder to abuse than eg. Loam or Confidant. It requires very specific build of manabase and probably the only way to use these cards it are Coninement and Scroll Rack.
-Replenish doesn't seem much more dangerous than Aluren, Sneak Attack, Academy Rector - another cards winning for four mana under specified circumstances.
-Grim Monolith isn't better than already avaliable acceleration.
-Gush might be worth considering in decks like GAT, Stasis or Turboland, which are tier2 or worse.
-Unbanning Illusionary Mask will just result in new, better survival build, which haven't been seen for a long time.
-Mind Twist would hardly do anything, as it requires a lot of fast mana nobody has.

Now cards which should stay as they are:
-Entomb would be way to good with Loam, Regrowth, Witness, Welder and other powerful cards of this format.
-The same is true for Hermit Druid. Imagine this guy in Garden?! Or any other deck using graveyard? Say no! For one-card combo.

[Kadaj]

...Are you joking?

Yawgmoth's Bargain and Mind's Desire? Storm combo would break those in half before you had a chance to blink. Turn 2 Bargain? GG. Turn 3 Desire for 5+? GG

Seriously, those are two of the most broken cards ever printed, and you want to turn them loose? We'd be in a combo winter for a very long time if they unbanned either of those cards, resolving one of them essentially automatically means game over, they're just that dumb.

[Warmonger]

Yawgmoth's Bargain and Mind's Desire? Storm combo would break those in half before you had a chance to blink. Turn 2 Bargain? GG. Turn 3 Desire for 5+? GG
Combo decks already kill on turn 2-3, but those 6-mana cards would just make them inconsitent. It's not like T1, where you can drop Crypt, Vault and Mox.

[Kadaj]

No, considering Mind's Desire is uncounterable it would make them MORE consistent. Bargain would give them a late game, something combo decks aren't supposed to have, as well as a way to win off of nothing other than a lotus petal and a swamp with 2 dark rituals.

I'm not going to argue this point with you any further, due to the sheer stupidity of the idea, but I can guarantee you that Bargain and Desire are never coming off the list, and with good reason.

[Eldariel]

People talking about Hermit Druid seem to forget that it can easily exist in a deck, which dumps Anger to its grave anyways. Any sort of survival-build could pretty easily abuse it for an instant kill. Say 'no' for 3-mana 'I win's.


Anyhow, I'll be quick about this:
-Land Tax - fair game, the format has Loam and it isn't breaking anything in half, and it can at least get non-basics too.
-Mind over Matter - it could be usable, but the combo-deck that broke it is banned, so it couldn't be used as much as a combo-engine as a tool. (heh. Tool.)
-Mind Twist - 3-mana Hymn? Na, not scary.
-Imperial Seal - reprint + unban, gives the colour that's supposed to be the best in tutoring at least one decent tutor in this format. Vampiric is far too much superior to the other Mirage-tutors to be legal in this format (this has been proven time and time again, last Extended-season, Vampiric was everywhere, many toolbox decks even splashed just to have the versatility at their grasp) and Consultation and Demonic are even nuttier. Seal is about on par with the others.
-Entomb - risky, but could potentially come off. If only it said 'creature card', it'd be all good. Being able to get Loam and company, dunno. Turn 1 Akroma is definately nice.

-Metalworker - Mono-brown is good enough already, they don't need 3-mana cards that tap for 10.
-Grim Monolith - Voltaic Key called. No, but really, I don't like the idea of having Voltaic and Grim in the same format. Let Basalt Monolith enable the P. Artifact-combo, Grim is uncalled for.
-Replenish - Interesting, but it seems pretty strong with the present enchantment-pool and all the discard-outlets and enchantments that destroy themselves. I don't think it should be unbanned.
-Oath of Druids - The present format is perfectly fine, thank you very much, don't need a new one.
-Illusionary Mask - Nah.
-Bargain/Gush/Desire/Spiral/etc. - Nah.

[MattH]

Besides the obvious MoMa and Tax, I think we could stand to have Replenish around. It's pretty slow as a combo, and some neat stuff could be done with it and dredge. (Loam for Boseiju to force the YWill through?).

I think we could also allow Hermit Druid back. It's slightly stronger but WAY more fragile than Mesmeric Orb/Basalt Monolith and that deck is approximately beyond the orbit of Neptune.

I would however be wary of unbanning both Druid AND Replenish at the same time.

Grim Monolith is tempting but I'll stick to just the above for now. Get the two obvious ones out of the way, then get one more toy for fun and wait awhile to see how it plays out.

If you guys really want any hope of catching the DCI's attention, you'll focus your efforts on only the two most reasonable unbannings. Suggesting things like Mind Twist and Time Spiral is a good way to get them to never pay attention to you again, even if you're right. Present a united front advancing positions that really CANNOT be argued with, and you build a sense of trust in them - trust that you know what you're talking about. Only from there will you ever be able to ask for the more powerful broken toys.

[Warmonger]

If you guys really want any hope of catching the DCI's attention, you'll focus your efforts on only the two most reasonable unbannings. Suggesting things like Mind Twist and Time Spiral is a good way to get them to never pay attention to you again, even if you're right. Present a united front advancing positions that really CANNOT be argued with, and you build a sense of trust in them - trust that you know what you're talking about. Only from there will you ever be able to ask for the more powerful broken toys.
Of course you're right, but I don't expect many of them to read my post. It's the forum and I feel free to speak my mind, even if not many accept my words.

[cathl]

Mind Over Matter does make a neat combo with Quicksilver Dagger. I would be interested in putting such a deck together; I doubt it would be broken.

[PunkRocker1134]

I said this before by why not test these cards in decks against the upper tier. For christ sake if we show them the lists we ran and what we ran them against and the freakin results the can't deny it. Come on showing that Parfait and Land Tax WW wont rip the format open via testing results has to mean something. I tried this before and it got ignored by most of you guys. It would be a huge project and require a good bit of people but it could get cards off that list. So come on, who's in? PM me or post it here.

[Anarky87]

I said this before by why not test these cards in decks against the upper tier. For christ sake if we show them the lists we ran and what we ran them against and the freakin results the can't deny it. Come on showing that Parfait and Land Tax WW wont rip the format open via testing results has to mean something. I tried this before and it got ignored by most of you guys. It would be a huge project and require a good bit of people but it could get cards off that list. So come on, who's in? PM me or post it here.

I think this would be the best way to present our ideas as a Legacy community to the DCI. This will give players the chance to see what kind power level the cards would be playing at and put to rest the unfounded, "ZOMG LAND TAX (Or insert any card on the list) WOULD BREAK LEGACY!!111!" statements. I wouldn't really mind something coming, as I'd like to have something new to tinker with.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Well, we don't need to test out Land Tax or Mind over Matter, simply because we've got universal consensus on those two.

[PunkRocker1134]

Still test them just to show the DCI that they aren't ridiculous of anything.

[Togit460]

post the proposed decklists that would abuse the said cards as badly as possible, then if in testing they are still fair our logic would be undeniable that they could not wreck the format. Please pm me some decklists to try out, I prefer metalworker decklists personally...

[PunkRocker1134]

i posted a thread about it just now, look to that for future refernce. Thank you.

[Warmonger]

Great idea, just do it. :cool:

Maybe you should start a new topic for this undertaking?

EDIT: yeah^

[dontbiteitholmes]

I agree with lots of statements included in article.
-Mind over Matter does and will do nothing.
-Dream Halls does more, but it's too slow to worry about possible build.
-The same is true for Time Spiral. It's just overkill.
-Yawgmoth's Bargain and even Mind's Desire are also crappy because of their cost - could you imagine them beeing faster than current decks?
-Land Tax gives enermous card advantage, but it's much harder to abuse than eg. Loam or Confidant. It requires very specific build of manabase and probably the only way to use these cards it are Coninement and Scroll Rack.
-Replenish doesn't seem much more dangerous than Aluren, Sneak Attack, Academy Rector - another cards winning for four mana under specified circumstances.
-Grim Monolith isn't better than already avaliable acceleration.
-Gush might be worth considering in decks like GAT, Stasis or Turboland, which are tier2 or worse.
-Unbanning Illusionary Mask will just result in new, better survival build, which haven't been seen for a long time.
-Mind Twist would hardly do anything, as it requires a lot of fast mana nobody has.

Now cards which should stay as they are:
-Entomb would be way to good with Loam, Regrowth, Witness, Welder and other powerful cards of this format.
-The same is true for Hermit Druid. Imagine this guy in Garden?! Or any other deck using graveyard? Say no! For one-card combo.
A few things...
1: Yawgmoth's Bargain may be expensive but you can cheat it into play and once it hits play you basically draw your whole deck and win. Not to mention the new pitch card from CS that would make this retarded.
2: Grim Monolith is actually better then all available acceleration in Legacy. Name a better one.
3: Mind Twist is one of the only cards ever to be banned in Vintage for power reasons. Maybe it deserves more of a look then, "It can't rip your whole hand turn 1."
4: Mind's Desire wins the game when you play it more often then not. It might not be faster then current combos but decks could be altered to make use of it in ways we might not like. I seriously don't think I've ever seen someone resolve a Desire and not win.
5: Illusionary Mask would be a playable card that would be rediculously expensive. I don't think it's broken but I'm pretty sure it won't be unbanned.
6: The decks you mentioned are teir 2 mostly because Gush is banned. The alternate casting cost is more often helpful then a drawback and it just makes GroTog retarded.
7: I can't believe you said unban Yawgmoth's Bargain then said Entomb was to strong to unban...

[Warmonger]

^It's all about the cost. I can hardly recall any playable card with cc>4 that would be hardcasted. Decks tend to become faster and more consistent instead of trying to kill with bahbroken cards. It's because of powerful and fast disruption, like Duress, StP, Stifle, Oxidize, ReB, Needle and Crypt. Every threat you have may be destroyed within seconds, so they'd better require as little resources as possible. In current metagame these would be "kill more" cards, casted in a oment every other card would give you victory as well.
Grim Monolith is much worse than Cabal Ritual... the problem is that Voltaic Key is unbanned, so you may expect something like 7/10 Agrro back.

[dontbiteitholmes]

^It's all about the cost. I can hardly recall any playable card with cc>4 that would be hardcasted. Decks tend to become faster and more consistent instead of trying to kill with bahbroken cards. It's because of powerful and fast disruption, like Duress, StP, Stifle, Oxidize, ReB, Needle and Crypt. Every threat you have may be destroyed within seconds, so they'd better require as little resources as possible. In current metagame these would be "kill more" cards, casted in a oment every other card would give you victory as well.
Grim Monolith is much worse than Cabal Ritual... the problem is that Voltaic Key is unbanned, so you may expect something like 7/10 Agrro back.

Actually Grim Monolith is leagues above Cabal Ritual. Cabal Ritual needs black mana Monolith goes in any deck regardless of color. Grim Monolith can be used once then untapped and used again Cabal Ritual needs to be played the same turn you need the mana. Cabal Ritual nets you one mana without threshhold and 3 with threshhold while Grim Monolith can net you one mana the turn it is played or can be played then used for a net 3 mana next turn. The only time Cabal Ritual is better is when you have Threshhold and a very good use of 5 black mana.

As far as Bargain not being good... turn 1 Sacland into Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, turn 2 land, Dark Ritual into Academy Rector flashback Cabal Therapy... GG bro. Scenario one of a million in which Bargain is broken. Incase you weren't aware there was a tier 1 Vintage deck that had games like the one I just mentioned but unlucky for them they only got 1 Bargain so sometimes they wouldn't be able to Rector it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm pretty sure this thread is currently too full of stupid to make any dint in. And I do mean stupid in both ways, both in some of the arguments for unbanning certain ridiculous cards, and for keeping others banned. Mainly the running theme is a lack of any argument and calling anyone who disagrees with you a moron.

Let's start with seven cards that I think could be unbanned for starts, and actually explain why;

Land Tax: As I already mentioned, this card only grabs basics. That means you have to have a mana base full of basics for it to work. Already you're cut off to only two colors, realistically. If you're playing a control deck full of artifact, card disadvantage mana to make it run, that means you're at a huge disadvantage in terms of your deck sucking if Land Tax doesn't hit play and stay there. Already this is looking grim. In trade-off, you get to play a version of Rabid Wombat with a slightly faster, more consistent mana drops for a couple of turns before any opponent on earthy stops dropping lands. Except Solidarity, which the deck described still cannot conceivably beat. You'll probably still beat Goblins, but the already shaky MWC matchup against Gro cannot conceivably be helped by opening your mana sources up to Daze.

The inherent flaw with the Scroll-Tax argument is that the deck built around it means that your ridiculous card advantage engine is drawing you more Land Taxes, Scroll Racks, basic lands, Mox Diamonds and Lotus Petals. People very often forgot the last line on the Rule of Card Advantage, so let me reiterate; The player who draws the most cards tends to win the game, as long as those cards do something useful. This engine is significantly worse than Sylvan Library-Abundance or the entirety of Enchantress for raw card drawing, with little sign that it might do more besides beat Goblins.

Empyrial Armor-Land Tax is a three card combo that produces a slightly faster kill in exchange for turning StP into Ancestral Recall. For comparison, Giant Growth-Berserk costs 1/2 as much, functions at instant speed, and is not depedent on the opponent doing anything but allowing your creature to live.

Mind Over Matter- I cannot conceive of a single argument for this card being banned, nor have I heard one. If anything, the infinitely small chance that Arcanis the Omnipotent might become a powerhouse card is a great reason for it's unbanning.

Mind Twist- Any first turn scenario you describe will mean playing a deck strictly worse than Iggy Pop, which can produce the same effect while winning the game. At any point at which it's actually better in some sense than Hymn to Tourach, one wonders why you are not playing Cranial Extraction or Haunting Echoes. The card would probably be played in some sort of black 5/3 build which might be good or might only be awesome, and it would be great in the Truffle Shuffle vs. Train Wreck metagame, but there are already enough expensive spells that can break the late game control on control stall wide open, and too few control decks to make it matter.

Replenish- Every single proposed build of the combo deck is literally awful, and no one suggesting such a deck is good has every playtested it. Let me break down the fundamental flaw for you; your suggest combo deck empties it's hand, so it has no protection, already making it worse than Iggy Pop or Solidarity. It kills, at the earliest, on the same turn as Solidarity, but at the speed of Iggy Pop with the same vulnerability to graveyard hate, and, unlike either deck, it does not, of course, have Storm, meaning it gets eaten alive by Gro and any blue-based control deck, or, to be honest, any discard-based control deck.

The card is strong in Solitaire-Enchantress, but that deck being a little bit better isn't going to hurt anyone. Might there be some LifeFromtheLoam-Confinement-Humility-ParallaxWave-NaturesRevolt-Opalescence-Replenish combo out there? Conceivably. Is there anything to suggest that such a deck is any more consistent or resilent than Food Chain into double Myojin? Not in the slightest.

Grim Monolith- I have some interesting information for you.

This card is fundamentally a Seal of Cabal Ritual sansThreshold.

No, that's not fair, right? Because it only costs colorless mana to play. Because it only produces colorless mana.

Okay, go first turn City of Traitors, Monolith, Trinisphere. Better make that second land drop, buddy. I realize that people have an irrational hatred of prison and combo, but the Voltaic Key-Monolith engine is not the uber stone cold nuts. We already have a shit ton of colorless mana producers, and in a format where resilency is generally better than speed, I find it extremely questionable that this card could ever be better than Worn Powerstone, much less at the level that it would dominate the format and require immediate banning.

Hermit Druid- Okay, let's discuss the first thing. Your deck cannot run basic lands. That's the first thing we're looking at in a combo deck. Second thing; Your deck needs a 1/1 to untap on the third turn; not only are Mogg Fanatic and StP answers, 50% of the time Vindicate is too. Already your deck is incredibly vulnerable to the hate Goblins throws at it. This is assuming we are not playing Gro or Smart Goblins, which turn Swords to Plowshares into the absolute best Brain Freeze ever printed. Hell, if you opponent has two Fire/Ice in his hand he's sitting pretty good. Or, y'know, Dazes your Krosan Reclamation. Is this deck powerful objectively? Yes. Is it resilent? Quite clearly not. Is it faster than Belcher? No. Is it any more consistent? Considering it's requiring one card to get set up instead of to win, and the fact that it can no way afford to play Spoils of the Vault, I'd say not. Did Belcher ever lose to Mogg Fanatic? Pretty rarely. If your deck is not better than Belcher, you don't get to be on the Banned list. Decks that can win on turn 1 30% of the time are annoying to play against. So is Pox, but I'm not seeing any cries to ban Chimeric Idol.

Worldgorger Dragon- I'd actually much rather start with this one than Entomb. Animate Dead on Worldgorger Dragon is arguably much fairer than Reanimate on a Sundering Titan against a huge chunk of the field, as Stifle/StP/Naturalize/Edict can cause a huge reverse in game direction, and Dragon at least requires another creature in the yard of some immediate use or a convenient Ghitu Fire to actually win. Without Bazaar, and without Entomb at least to start with, I think the card would actually see very little play, probably only pairing with Ambassador Laquatus as another two Buried Alive targets for a toolbox style reanimator, which is still very far from being argued as a top, much less overpowered, deck.




Once these have been unbanned for three months or so, I'd move on to consider other cards. Anything I list here would be too controversial to get into, but suffice it to say; cards should not be banned for being powerful. Cards should not be banned because they're played. Cards should be banned for negatively affecting the metagame. I would however probably only uban one or two cards at most at a time, and probably not with every update.

And for the record? Did you fucking play 1.5 at all before the bannings? Goblin Recruiter was heavily played, and Skullclamp was around a good bit while Oath was being ignored. Giving Blue-based control a tool to be competitive is not a terrible move in my deck, and neither of the other two cards listed are cards that could never be conceivably unbanned; while they're both very powerful, there's no reason to assume that either would inherently destroy Legacy based off of that fact.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Cabal Ritual nets you one mana without threshhold and 3 with threshhold while Grim Monolith can net you one mana the turn it is played or can be played then used for a net 3 mana next turn.

This is the sort of combo deck that likes to pass the turn a lot. Pogger Tendrils?

[MattH]

[Mind Twist] would be great in the Truffle Shuffle vs. Train Wreck metagame
Speaking of which, I was wondering when you were going to start making decks with Mind Sludge, thereby completing the project to import every card from Odyssey MBC into Legacy!


his is assuming we are not playing Gro or Smart Goblins, which turn Swords to Plowshares into the absolute best Brain Freeze ever printed.
This argument is not applicable, because if they plow the Hermit, you didn't mill, and if they plow the ghoul (or whatever) - well that won't actually happen because the Hermit is gonna get sacced to Therapy naming STP/whatever.

Also, has anyone investagted the use of Hermit in a deck that only wants to mill a lot of cards, and not necessarily the whole library? Like Ichorid or something in that vein.

Based on how long it took this format to decide that vial goblins was better than goblin sligh, I don't think unbanning more than one card at a time (not counting the obvious two, here) is a good idea. 3 months between unbannings isn't nearly long enough, because I don't trust this format as a whole to figure out how to exploit cards' full power in that time.

Also, everyone advocating unbanning multiple cards that aren't Tax/MoMa should have to addres is that one important thing about the banned cards is how well they interact with other banned cards. Even if Mind Twist is okay, and Monolith is okay, Mind Twist AND Monolith might not be. Hermit Druid happens to go really well with both Entomb or Replenish. And so on.


If I were in charge, I would unban MoMa and Tax immediately (December), then 3 months later pick ONE of the following to unban:

Replenish
Grim Monolith
Hermit Druid

and then wait probably 9 months before unbanning anything else to give the format time to adjust. I know it hurts to say it, but it's true: this format simply is not popular enough to have enough attention focused on it to break cards and decks as fast as other formats. You can't assume that because T2 can find the best way to use a new card in a matter of months that we can do the same, because of the lesser attention (both quality and quantity) and because of the deeper cardpool. You can't hold Legacy to the Extended or Block standard.

[Machinus]

Based on how long it took this format to decide that vial goblins was better than goblin sligh, I don't think unbanning more than one card at a time (not counting the obvious two, here) is a good idea. 3 months between unbannings isn't nearly long enough, because I don't trust this format as a whole to figure out how to exploit cards' full power in that time.

I don't know about you, but it didn't take ME very long to discover Goblins.


I spend quite a lot of time designing decks and exploring the potential interactions in the format. I wouldn't have written this article if I didn't think these six cards together really would be safe in Legacy.

Most of the questions/arguments in this thread are covered somewhere in my article. If you have an objection, I suggest you read my article (again). I addressed many concerns in it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This argument is not applicable, because if they plow the Hermit, you didn't mill, and if they plow the ghoul (or whatever) - well that won't actually happen because the Hermit is gonna get sacced to Therapy naming STP/whatever.


Not necesarily. Smart Goblins might let you mill yourself during your upkeep, then Fanatic/Gempalm the Hermit Druid before your main phase in response to your Krosan Reclamation. Gro, on the other hand... well, go ahead and name StP actually, as Counterspell, Force of Will and Daze are also the most amazing Brain Freezes in that deck. Assuming they don't just Brainstorm into whichever in response to Therapy, or Predict you naming Reanimate before your draw step.

[Warmonger]

Worldgorger Dragon- I'd actually much rather start with this one than Entomb. Animate Dead on Worldgorger Dragon is arguably much fairer than Reanimate on a Sundering Titan against a huge chunk of the field, as Stifle/StP/Naturalize/Edict can cause a huge reverse in game direction, and Dragon at least requires another creature in the yard of some immediate use or a convenient Ghitu Fire to actually win. Without Bazaar, and without Entomb at least to start with, I think the card would actually see very little play, probably only pairing with Ambassador Laquatus as another two Buried Alive targets for a toolbox style reanimator, which is still very far from being argued as a top, much less overpowered, deck.
I've played a bit of unpowered Dragon it T1 and it was still powerful. Win on turn 2 was common, not to mention I still have disruption and not much hate can stop me so easily. This two-card combo is too powerful for Legacy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Explain to me the two card combo that wins on turn 2 again, much less manages to provide disruption.

[MattH]

Not necesarily. Smart Goblins might let you mill yourself during your upkeep, then Fanatic/Gempalm the Hermit Druid before your main phase in response to your Krosan Reclamation.
I fail to see how this actually bothers the Hermit player in any way...? Once the Druid activates, its job is pretty much done.


I don't know about you, but it didn't take ME very long to discover Goblins.
And I would trust your judgment a little more than the average Legacy player's. But look at the Vial Goblins thread in the metagame forum here: it was March 2005, six months after the split, that Vial Goblins even got a thread. And the first couple pages are arguing about whether to include Goblin Lackey.

This is why I don't and won't put any stock in the results of the thread where people are trying to test whether card X is actually broken or not: I don't trust them to make the best build, I wouldn't trust them to play it right even if they did build it right, and even if they go on a rampage with Metalworker and declare it worthy of a ban, I don't trust their opponents not to really suck and have thrown away countless games, making a possibly fair deck look like a monster.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I fail to see how this actually bothers the Hermit player in any way...? Once the Druid activates, its job is pretty much done.

Smart Goblins in this case references Tom Smart's build. This means it runs maindeck StP. Fanatic/Gempalming your Hermit during your draw step means you can't flashback Cabal Therapy. This means that the one white they keep untapped signifies you losing the game after resolving your combo. It's an illustration of why your saying that they have to StP the Druid is incorrect.


And I would trust your judgment a little more than the average Legacy player's. But look at the Vial Goblins thread in the metagame forum here: it was March 2005, six months after the split, that Vial Goblins even got a thread. And the first couple pages are arguing about whether to include Goblin Lackey.

To be fair, Vial-Goblins hadn't been discovered in Extended until shortly before then, and that was a format with a shitton more coverage and pro attention. And the arguments for not playing Goblin Lackey were, I'm pretty sure, solely coming from Corrupted Angel who was trying to ape the Extended builds and did not understand that the card was not run in that format only because it was banned.


This is why I don't and won't put any stock in the results of the thread where people are trying to test whether card X is actually broken or not: I don't trust them to make the best build, I wouldn't trust them to play it right even if they did build it right, and even if they go on a rampage with Metalworker and declare it worthy of a ban, I don't trust their opponents not to really suck and have thrown away countless games, making a possibly fair deck look like a monster.

And, quid quo pro, absolutely no one has any reason to care about what you trust or not, to any extent, so everyone's free to continue as they were, aren't they?

[Phantom]

This is why I don't and won't put any stock in the results of the thread where people are trying to test whether card X is actually broken or not: I don't trust them to make the best build, I wouldn't trust them to play it right even if they did build it right, and even if they go on a rampage with Metalworker and declare it worthy of a ban, I don't trust their opponents not to really suck and have thrown away countless games, making a possibly fair deck look like a monster.

Of course this isn't a perfect solution to finding out whether or not certain cards are broken (let logic show that there IS no perfect solution) but if someone comes on here with a build that abuses a certain card and claims it has crazy good matchups against everything don't you think others will test it? And if a certain number of legacy players all agree that the deck, and by extension the card, is broken, then we can probably come to the conclusion that the card should not be unbanned.

Proving that a card isn't broken is much, much more difficult since cards have sometimes gone months and years in formats without being discovered.

What I like about this thread, even though it may overreach in scope or goals, is that it doing something as opposed to starting a ten page flame war which will be locked by Mr. Nightmare.

Action > Inaction.

[AnwarA101]

But look at the Vial Goblins thread in the metagame forum here: it was March 2005, six months after the split, that Vial Goblins even got a thread. And the first couple pages are arguing about whether to include Goblin Lackey.


The information that is lacking about this statement is that there were very few tournaments for Legacy right after the split. There is no major tournament listed in the Historical T8 thread until April of 2005 which is a month after the Vial Goblins thread. There was very little opportunity to discuss the results of tournaments if none were occurring. In absence of actual results its hard to guess what was a top deck at that early stage. Weren't the top decks things like ATS, Goblin Sligh, and Landstill? These were essentially the decks that survived banning and in the case of Goblin Sligh just a return to a deck that was essentially obsolete because Food Chain Goblins existed.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This is the sort of combo deck that likes to pass the turn a lot. Pogger Tendrils?

Who said it had to be a combo deck? With Grim Monolith and all the 2 mana producing lands it gets somewhat easy to be pumping out 7 mana on turn 2 which can get hairy. Not to mention it untaps for 3 and accelerates by atleast one mana. Of course it could be a combo deck.
Also as far as Mind Twist being unbannable because control isn't in the format enough for it to matter. Hello? It's still the nuts against control and whos to say control couldn't make a comeback and then Mind Twist would be a super hardcore hurdle. Mind Twist in the sideboard vs. Control? No Thx.

[Hoojo]

Who said it had to be a combo deck? With Grim Monolith and all the 2 mana producing lands it gets somewhat easy to be pumping out 7 mana on turn 2 which can get hairy. Not to mention it untaps for 3 and accelerates by atleast one mana. Of course it could be a combo deck.
Also as far as Mind Twist being unbannable because control isn't in the format enough for it to matter. Hello? It's still the nuts against control and whos to say control couldn't make a comeback and then Mind Twist would be a super hardcore hurdle. Mind Twist in the sideboard vs. Control? No Thx.

Grim Monolith untaps for four mana, not three.

[MattH]

What I like about this thread, even though it may overreach in scope or goals, is that it doing something as opposed to starting a ten page flame war which will be locked by Mr. Nightmare.

Action > Inaction.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the project. I just don't think it's actually staffed all that well. Forgive me if this is insulting, but I simply don't think Anarky87 or PunkRocker1134 or Warmonger is going to find the best Grim Monolith deck out there. I think that the temptation to register false positives ("this card is safe" when it's actually not) is unacceptable high, and the liklihood of registering false negatives ("this card is too good" when it's actually not) is also higher than I would like (though not nearly as likely as false positives, because people fundamentally WANT a lot of these cards to be safe for unbanning).

If a collection of people with proven strong playskills and/or deckbuilding skills were to take up the challenge - people like Machinus, Bardo, Artowis, Rich Shay, Zilla, Gearhart, herbig, and hey in the spirit of compromise I'll throw in your choice of Elgin - and come to a strong concensus on the strength of a card, THEN I would trust that result.

Maybe you guys are actually gods of Magic - but I have no reason to suspect that. I wouldn't even trust myself to give an interesting card like Replenish a full working-over, I sure don't trust you guys.


In absence of actual results its hard to guess what was a top deck at that early stage. Weren't the top decks things like ATS, Goblin Sligh, and Landstill?
What you say is true but missing context. The problem with this is that the "actual results" from the tournaments from that time would have told you that Landstill was a very good deck. It often appeared in the top eight, and I recall seeing one tournament just prior to GP: Philly that had 5 or 6 Landstill decks in the top eight. Even later (from the split to GP: Philly), when we HAD actual results, some flat silliness was still considered upper-tier.

Saying "Well, naturally we didn't catch one of the good decks right away" disguises the fact that the Legacy community as a whole 1. didn't catch on for much longer than it should have, and 2. DID catch on to a load of decks that turned out to be pretty bad. I'm far from innocent of this myself, but really it just undermines confidence, and hence makes me pretty wary of drawing anything conclusive from such limited testing. Which is why I said I would want a relatively conservative 6 or 9 months between EACH unbanning, instead of the "unban these six cards right now and another six next time" approach, which seems needlessly reckless.

[PunkRocker1134]

Hey, abotu the project I wanted way more peopel involved, all it did was turn into a flame war. I want people involved who are amazing magic players and have more creidablity then we do. YEa, I'm new the the format, Ive been playing since old 1.5 but Im nto amazing. So yea get involved with it isntead of saying we arent creditable and all.

[Machinus]

As I said before, I don't think people read my article very well. If you had, you would know that I'm not advocating six unbannings right away. I'm also not asking for Vampiric Tutor's unbanning. It's not that long; please take the time to read my analysis!

[MattH]

You may not have, but some people ARE asking for a lot of unbannings.

I'll read it again to be sure of your arguments, but also remember that I'm addressing more than just you with my posts.

[Complete_Jank]

As I said before, I don't think people read my article very well. If you had, you would know that I'm not advocating six unbannings right away. I'm also not asking for Vampiric Tutor's unbanning. It's not that long; please take the time to read my analysis!

I took the time to read your article and respond, however you didn't take the time to read your own thread and respond to my post, so why would anyone else want to waste their time reading your article and responding to it and then not have you respond to them either.



To the person that replied to me saying Pithing Needle was an answer for Metal Worker, a little enlightenment. Metal Worker is a mana ability, and can not be stopped. I also ran 5 different ways to abuse the mana, two of them went infinite, so Pithing Needle was not an option as a logical answer.


Now, Worldgorger Dragon even without many of the other components is still too strong and can allow 1st turn wins, but is still stronger than most decks in the format. Here's a short decklist of sort of how it would be built.

4 Poluted Delta
4 Blood-Stained Mire
1 Underground Sea
1 Badland
1 Swamp
4 Lion's Eye Diamon
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
3 Spoils of the Vault
4 Worldgorger Dragon
3 Flaming Gambit
4 Cunning wish
4 Force of Will
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead

It is possible for the deck listed above to go off first turn and counter the one answer the other deck might have.

Dragon should it become unbanned would make decks not playing Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Stifle and Chain of Vapor to change their decks, thus eliminating Goblins from the format along with most other non control decks.

An argument for unbanning a card that states that there are lots of answers for it already is not a good arguement as it will force all other decksnot currenlty running those cards to have to run those cards, or not be competitive and that is not what Wizards wants to happen nor do I.

[Hoojo]

It would be neat to do a survey and couple it with opinions about what cards would be right for legacy. Information like age, how long you've been playing, tournament records for the various formats, et cetera could have interesting results.

[AnwarA101]

It is possible for the deck listed above to go off first turn and counter the one answer the other deck might have.

Dragon should it become unbanned would make decks not playing Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Stifle and Chain of Vapor to change their decks, thus eliminating Goblins from the format along with most other non control decks.



Iggy Pop has essentially done this already. It usually beats the hell out of decks not playing Force of Will. Its not even affected by STP or Chain of Vapor. It can win on turn 1 and very consistently can win by turn 3. I'm not sure Dragon would do much better, but even it did it would have to as consistent as Iggy Pop without the weaknesses to be better than Iggy.

Try playing Goblins against Iggy Pop I bet you'll get tired of it pretty fast. Goblins basically has very little chance because you basically need a turn 3 win otherwise you lose and you might even if you do.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As I said before, I don't think people read my article very well.


Joke's on you for trying to have an intelligent discussion about the banned list, I guess.

[DeathwingZERO]

An intelligent discussion about the banned list is HOW it gets changed in the first place (contrary to popular belief shown in the card "Look at me, I'm the DCI", which everyone knows is how they really do it for formats other than standard).

The fact that people automatically assume that since a card was broken once in a given format it can be broken again is exactly why nobody is getting anywhere with the list changing. In all honesty, if Wizards or the DCI really cared about the format, they would rip the banned list out completely, get a group to test some of the cards that they have a 75%+ certainty would warp a "healthy" metagame, and then let the rest go, and see what we come up with. In my opinion, a good 5-8 cards would be taken off the list permanently due to our inability to break them again, thanks to the formats original facelift into Legacy.

We play this game, and mold this format, not them. They still haven't quite caught onto that yet, they think we're still infants, just because the format technically is.