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Mad Bomber
09-16-2006, 02:40 AM
Ok i remember back in the day when you could cast waylay at the end of an opponents turn and the tokens would still be around to attack the next turn.

Does this still work?

And if so what is the exact wording someone would have to use to be able to do that?

Also would this work.

EOT cast shallow grave targeting one of my creatures. And still have it around next turn to attack with or use its ability?

Thanks

AngryTroll
09-16-2006, 03:16 AM
The Waylay trick no longer works. It has been Eratta'd to say

Waylay 2W
Instant
Play Waylay only during combat. Put three 2/2 white Knight creature tokens into play. Remove them from the game at end of turn.

I am not sure about the second question. I believe an entire faction was created about the Waylay rules eratta...a group of players that play without any errata. The Casual Players League? Something like that, maybe?

Eldariel
09-16-2006, 05:07 AM
The cards were instituted an errata since they were printed before the 6th edition-rules and the 6th edition-rules changed their functionality. Other examples are Thawing Glaciers (the EoT-clause, else you could use it at the EoT, then again on your turn), Phyrexian Dreadnought (the comes-into-play clause turned into 'as it comes into play'-replacement effect), etc.

The exact wording you need to use those tricks is simply the one on the card without any errata. Here's how it goes:

End-phase contains 2 steps:
End of turn-step. Here, triggers worded 'At the end of turn' go on the stack. After that, players get priority. If you play effects with 'At the end of turn'-triggers at this point, the triggers won't resolve until the NEXT end of turn. This is what causes all the tricks you can do at the EoT.

Clean up-step. The active player discards to 7 cards if he has more than 7 cards, then all 'This turn' and 'Until end of turn'-effects end and all damage is removed from permanents. If some abilities trigger during the Clean up-step (like Madness in the puzzle), players get priority after all that. Once both pass priority on an empty stack, there's a new Clean up-step, repeated until no triggered abilities are put on the stack and the game can proceed to the next turn.

Tacosnape
09-16-2006, 01:19 PM
As mentioned, Waylay has been errata'd.

Shallow Grave, however, works exactly as you said. It allows you to do insane awesome shit, like the trick I pulled off awhile back.

1. EOT, Shallow Grave, Akroma
2. Untap, Upkeep, Draw, Play Land, Combat, Swing for 6.
3. Since Akroma has First Strike, Ninjitsu Ninja of the Deep Hours in, deal an additional 2, Draw a card (I drew Shallow Grave and was able to pitch Akroma again shortly after. Whee.)

Not quite as fun as Vial/Ball Lightning/Vanish into Memory, but pretty close.

Raider Bob
11-25-2006, 08:46 PM
Ok well I know the whole Waylay Errata crap thing HOWEVER, with cards going back to how they were printed and the errata being romoved as in great whale, yadda yadda, Time Vault...Does the old White Ball Lightning crap work still? The Gatherer is unclear.

cdr
11-25-2006, 11:20 PM
How is Gatherer unclear? It is the single official source for Oracle text.



Waylay
2W
Instant
Put three 2/2 white Knight creature tokens into play. They gain substance until end of turn. Remove them from the game when they lose substance.

(The text AngryTroll posted is outdated)

The errata has not been removed.

Their policy for errata is now "printed intent", whatever that's supposed to be. I personally think Waylay (and Glaciers) should have their errata removed.

From the article explaining the new policy (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af127):


Waylay / Thawing Glaciers – These cards had their intended functionality disrupted by a rules change. If we're willing to “leave intent intact” by making cards better (the aforementioned Ertai's Familiar and Armor of Thorns with substance), then we have to be willing to “leave intent intact” by making them worse as well. The end-of-turn phase didn't exist as we know it when these cards were printed.

Cait_Sith
11-30-2006, 09:59 PM
Printed intent just means that they errata'd the card to do as opposed to what it actually does. Before Waylay DID an white ball lightning when it was INTENDED to be a combat trick. The errata reduces it back to such.

Oh, and since they though of substance, they have been having a ball with it.

Benie Bederios
06-18-2008, 08:12 AM
I had another question about this..

I read this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10062.html) article and read about the End of turn step. There I read that people still get priority after the active player discarded down to seven. This means that you could discard down to seven and play an TFK after that, ditching an artifact en actually end the turn with 8 cards in hand. Is this correct?

So it could work the otherway around too. If you play with for example Solidarity and you go to the end step. You could wait until your opponent discards down to 7 and combo afterwards?

I tried to look it up, but couldn't find an answer.

If so, when is the best time to play an EOT Brainstorm, before or after discarding?

BB

Ewokslayer
06-18-2008, 09:55 AM
The article you linked to is incorrect.
There are comments to that effect in the discussion of the article.
Basically, Unless something triggers during cleanup and goes on the stack no one gets priority during the cleanup step, which is where you discard.


Great article, but there is one small error I noticed right away. According to 314.3, the active player only gets priority if something triggered or SBEs kicked in during that cleanup. Otherwise, no one gets priority and the turn ends. It makes a difference, as it means that I can't specifically wait until "after your Giant Growth wears off but before I untap for the turn" to fire the Echoing Decay I drew in End Step.




it means as soon as the active player does actually discard, there is no opportunity for the other player to play anything any more, as long as that discard doesn't trigger anything.
This is important, because it means that if you're opponent announces that he wants to discard and you say ok and he discards, you can't play anything any more.


And finally a really interesting scenario

Your opponent plays turn 1 Plains. During your upkeep, he Orim's Chants you. You draw a card, then say 'go' with 8 cards in hand. (...time to break it down...)

Your end step hits and you both pass. The Cleanup Step begins and you discard Basking Rootwalla to the Madness zone. Madness's second ability sets up a trigger that allows you to play that spell via it's Madness cost until your next priority pass (this trigger isn't on the stack yet; it is hovering and waiting to be put on the stack). All "until end of turn" effects and creature damage is cleared simultaneously*.

At this point, the game sees that a triggered ability is waiting to be put on the stack. The Madness trigger is put on the stack and each player passes. The trigger resolves and you may now play Basking Rootwalla by paying zero until your next pass, and you receive priority. You pay zero and put Basking Rootwalla on the stack. You both pass and Basking Rootwalla enters play. You both pass on an empty stack and another Cleaup Step occurs. Nothing unusual happens this time and now begins your opponent's turn.

You are allowed to play Basking Rootwalla at this quirky time because Orim's Chant's effect ended at the asterisk* above.

Nihil Credo
06-18-2008, 10:49 AM
That scenario no longer works. The Madness trigger used to say "You may play CARDNAME for its madness cost until next time you pass priority"; this was because back in 2001 or so the rules did not allow you to play a spell during the resolution of an ability.

When they reprinted Madness cards in Time Spiral, the wording was updated to a simpler "You may play CARDNAME for its madness cost (i.e. right now)", therefore in the described scenario Orim's Chant would not allow the Basking Rootwalla to leave the RFG (Madness) zone.