Testing Cards that are Banned against Legacy [Archive]

PunkRocker1134

09-16-2006, 01:27 PM

this thread is as obivous as the title. Its for getting people together who want to test cards on the banned list against the upper tier of Legacy. Obivously we would do this to show what lists the banned cards are in, what we tested against and the results to the DCI and hopefully get cards off of the list. Also I think we would optimize the decklists the banned cards are in so we are testing very good lists and most importantly discuss what needs to be tested. Hopefully there will be enough interest so we can do this on a large scale and do it efficeintly. First our current banned list:

Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Dream Halls
Earthcraft
Entomb
Falling Star
Fastbond
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Grim Monolith
Gush
Hermit Druid
Illusionary Mask
Imperial Seal
Jeweled Bird
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Metalworker
Mind Over Matter
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Rebirth
Replenish
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Tempest Efreet
Time Spiral
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

What obivous shouldn't be taken off:
Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Tutor
Falling Star
Fastbond
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Illusionary Mask
Jeweled Bird
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Rebirth
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Tempest Efreet
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Wheel Of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Who's In So far:
Me (obivously)
Kadaj
Anarky87
Warmonger

If you havent noticed things like Windfall and Mind's Desire arent on there. While they probably shouldnt come off, there is still some iffyness in there. We can add cards to the list of things that dont need to be tested because of broken issues, also as (if) this progresses we will make a list for cards that have shown to be too broken (and the list they were in and percentages). Also I will personnaly update this post with current testing percentages, optimal lists (as argeed upon), who is in and what cards have been proven to be too broken. Also I believe I should mention that we should test multiple decks with certain cards in it. Windfall maybe not be broken in Faerie Stompy, but it could be broken in Storm Combo for say. SO one question remains. Who is in?

Warmonger

09-16-2006, 01:45 PM

We're going to design the best possible decks that might abuse these cards. if we don't success, our right is proven.

Ok, now a couple of words about our Land Tax:

-Cheap, immune to hate source of card advantage
-Requires loads of basic lands
-Requires either non-land acceleration, non-mana build (like Friggorid) or a way to sacrifice lands
-Provides only these lands, which don't do anything on their own.
-Dropping lands would screw it.

Build that uses it:
Old parfait, mono W control

12 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Mox Diamond
2 Zuran Orb

1 Sol Ring
2 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Argivian Find
4 Land Tax
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Mindstone
2 Scroll Rack
1 Balance
3 Abeyance
1 Soldevi Digger
3 Seal of Cleansing

2 Story Circle
2 Sacred Mesa
1 Karmic Justice
1 Pariah

2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Replenish

SB:
1 Ivory Mask
1 Abeyance
2 Story Circle
1 Blood Moon
1 Mountain
1 Ivory Tower
2 Tormod's Crypt
6 To be determined

***********

1x Strip Mine
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Mountain
14x Plains
3x Wasteland
1x Mox Diamond

3x Replenish
4x Argivian Find

1x Soldevi Digger
1x Blood Moon
1x Ivory Mask
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Story Circle
1x Seal of Cleansing
2x Aura of Silence
3x Orim's Chant
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Sacred Mesa
1x Humility
1x Balance
1x Wrath of God
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Zuran Orb

3x Scroll Rack
4x Land Tax

Use acceleration and Zuran Orb to make it working, draw loads of threats wit Scroll Rack and finally win.

Any other ideas?

Eldariel

09-16-2006, 01:48 PM

Old Empyrial Armor/Cataclysm WW-builds used it. Worth testing. Also note that Mox Diamond is unbanned in the format so it should definately be a 4-of. Arguably, Chrome Mox could be included too since it also works nicely with Scroll Rack that's a likely inclusion in a control-build. Since multicolour is so easy in this format, UW Tax Control could work nicely seeing that U offers Brainstorm and such.

PunkRocker1134

09-16-2006, 01:50 PM

Also Confinement might help, considering Tax can keep filling up your hand and with Scroll you can keep getting a fresh hand and dig into those Squees. I think a UW Control/Parfair/Confinement build might be best.
Edit: and Enlightened Tutor. Also with Zuran Orb and countermagic this could be something interesting.

Anarky87

09-16-2006, 01:57 PM

Old Empyrial Armor/Cataclysm WW-builds used it. Worth testing.

I just mentioned to PunkRocker about how I used that combination in an old school WW. Though now we have Empyreal Plating to take the place of Armor. I suppose that's worth testing. Confinement I hadn't thought about, but that seems to be pretty good.

TheDarkshineKnight

09-16-2006, 02:05 PM

Just some personal opinions:

Black Vise: The thing about Black Vise is that it completely hoses control. It's fine in Vintage because you can only have one. However, since in Legacy it's either banned or playable in fours, it's simply to powerful to have around.

Demonic Consultation: WAY WAY WAY too powerful. You see, no one runs Consultation in Vintage because there are a lot of one-ofs. You don't want to kill yourself digging for the one balance or what not. However, it's extremely good in getting cards that you have multiples of.

Skullclamp: Legacy is already aggro-centric format. This will only shift the metagame further to the aggro side.

Vampiric Tutor: It's an instant and it can get anything. If it were a sorcery like Imperial Seal, then methinks it would be acceptable.

Wheel of Fortune: No Draw7s, PLEASE.

I'm fine testing everything else.

Lego

09-16-2006, 02:13 PM

I would say that you could probably make a case for unbanning Illusionary Mask as well, and possibly Oath of Druids. Maybe Library of Alexandria as well, give blue control some reason to compete (although I'm sure other decks could abuse it more.)

Tacosnape

09-16-2006, 02:22 PM

We're going to design the best possible decks that might abuse these cards. if we don't success, our right is proven.

That's ridiculous. It's incredibly unrealistic to think you will design the best decks to abuse these cards just because you say you're going to. If you fail at breaking these cards, all you have technically proven is that -you- aren't capable of breaking the card. How many people would have glanced at Ill-Gotten Gains or Reset and claimed those cards could be broken before Bomholt and Gearhart?

I think it's the most amusing thing I've ever heard for anyone to say "We're going to design the best possible decks that _____." If you could do this, there'd be no point in half of these forums existing. We'd all just contact you to make all the decks.

Kadaj

09-16-2006, 02:25 PM

I don't think Library should be unbanned, just because it's so utterly gamebreaking if you can get it active. As a four of it seems too good, but then again that's what this thread's for, to see if this stuff is really all that good.

Mask could come off, I don't think it would be too ridiculous. Oath would likely demolish the current metagame, but I think if there's even the slightest doubt about it we should attempt to test it.

The one card that's been brought up that doesn't need to be tested is Black Vise, that card is far too brutal as a 4 of.

I'm working on a Spring Tide list that uses Mind Over Matter, primarily because I can't think of anything else that would ever use it, just to see if it even fits in there.

Warmonger

09-16-2006, 02:25 PM

^Keep in mind that we already KNOW the reasons these cards were banned. :wink:

Bane of the Living

09-16-2006, 02:53 PM

edgewalker

09-16-2006, 03:06 PM

An idea for the parfait for a win would be the old PMS combo (equipoise, iron maiden, and sands of time.)

I would also suggest unbanning mask, since it really isn't that great a combo. it wins turn 3 at best and is really fragile, hell smother beats it. I would test oath just for shits, but it really is good.

dontbiteitholmes

09-16-2006, 04:02 PM

Library of Alexandria should always remained banned because its not fair for some dude with mono u and a bottomless wallet to be playing 4 of them. There are many cards on the Vintage restricted list that cant be unbanned because they can be utilized as 4 ofs. Im not sure The Rack falls into this category however. Its a great turn one play but I think the format can empty its hand fast enough to alude the rack damage for the lose.

Replenish and Metal Worker are probably far too powerfull to be legal once more. The shells for each deck would probably look this way..

Legacy Replenish
4 Attunement (sp?)
4 Parallax Wave
4 Parallax Tide
4 Replenish
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Opalesence
1 Humility
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Academy Rector

Maybe something like that? Im sure theres something better than attunement but whatever. Metalworker would be much scarier however..

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Mox Diamond

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metal Worker
2 Pentavus

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Voltaic Key
4 Mindslaver
3 Trinisphere
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Power Artifact
4 Basalt Monolith

Thats another bad decklist but Im sure you understand his potential. Turn 3 Slaver is the shit. Im sure you could do the power artifact combo or timevault one with him pretty easily.
1: It's Black Vise not the Rack.
2: That Replinish list is terrible, it looks more like a reason to unban Replenish to me. It can be made better but I don't think any Replenish combo deck is going to rock my socks since step 1 is always fill the graveyard with beef and Frantic Search is ultra-banned.
3: You seem to have failed to abuse Metalworker in the Metalworker deck also. I do think he can be broken though. I don't see why you have the Power Artifact combo to go infinite when you could just as easily stick in something way better like Staff of Domination and have a 2 card combo that utilizes the card you are attempting to break, going infinite without the UU mana requirement, drawing your whole deck and gaining infinite life, all without playing cards that completely suck.

Warmonger

09-16-2006, 04:04 PM

Some ideas of deck(s) abusing Land Tax, based on Turboland engine:

Max Tax

3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
6 Forest
4 Plains
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond - sure, good with Tax

4 Exploration - acceleration
4 Land Tax - hm?
4 Scroll Rack - sick (really!) draw engine
2 Zuran Orb - life + land sac, nice with Tax

2 Solitary Confinement - clear, but needs draw engine
4 Daze - counter, helps Tax
2 Forbid - nice counter, good with Tax, Meloku, Loam

Pure randomness:
1 Life from The Loam - card advantage!, mills well with Scroll Rack
2 Horn of Greed - additional draw?
1 Crucible - additional cards?
1 Winter Orb - possible threat?
1 Constant Mists - endless Fog, helps Tax
2 Gaea's Blessing - prevents possible decking, another shufle effect for Rack, lets to use Tax forever.

Kill:
1 Meloku - good with Exploration & Tax
2 Terravore - cheap, fed well

Please write your opinions and ideas.

Kadaj

09-16-2006, 04:16 PM

I have been working on some way to actually play Mind Over Matter, which believe me is not easy. This is the best thing I could come up with, a basic variation of Spring Tide.

4x Force of Will

3x Meditate
4x Ideas Unbound

4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Snap
3x Turnabout

4x High Tide

3x Cunning Wish
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Serum Visions
3x Sleight of Hand
4x Brainstorm

2x Mind Over Matter

3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
10x Islands

I would never want more than 1 Mind Over Matter over the course of a game, and it's extremely expensive. In my limited testing it's been fairly powerful if you can resolve it mid-combo, but even then it's almost definately a win-more card. Any thoughts or ideas on another way to use MoM in Legacy?

dontbiteitholmes

09-16-2006, 04:27 PM

Stick Black Vise in a Stax deck, 4x in the SB of any aggro deck (if not main), maybe a combo deck with Prosperity, and maybe something like Legacy Owling Mine with Stasis + Forsaken City. Can we stop acting like Black Vise should ever come off the banned list now?

PunkRocker1134

09-16-2006, 07:24 PM

No reason to get upset over Black Vise, I just threw it out there. Its always worth testing to see if it kills our metagame.

Also I feel I have to post this, its what I think UW parfait should look like now. Its very rough but I'll post it to help with the ideas floating around.

UW Confinement Tax

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [MR] Plains (3)
6 [8E] Island (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [IA] Zuran Orb
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [LG] Land Tax
4 [6E] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [SH] Mana Leak
SB: 4 [U] Swords to Plowshares

Its gotta Tutors/draw in Brainstorm, Intuiton and Enlightened tutor. Its got protection in Counterspell and Force of Will. Its engine Land tax and Scroll Rack works well with Confinement out because it finds Squee with Solitary Confinement out. Also it works with Zuran orb too, which is part of my primary aggro defense. The board is basic but its something. Thoughts? General ideas on other decks and banned cards. No one has said anything about cards like Earthcraft or cards liek that yet. So far thanks for all of the help! Keep it coming.

dontbiteitholmes

09-16-2006, 09:02 PM

No reason to get upset over Black Vise, I just threw it out there. Its always worth testing to see if it kills our metagame.

Well when you go saying Channel should never be unbanned "obviously" then turn around in the same post and say Black Vise, Mind Twist, Windfall, Skullclamp, and Vampiric Tutor deserve a second look it begs a WTF?
Come on people think before you go saying this stuff. I mean I think WoTC is bad at these kinda descisions then I see people comparing Mind Twist to a 3 mana Hymn...
I'd rather just have WoTC never touch this list again then play in a format full of first turn Vises, Skullclamping Golbins, Mind Twist with Duress backup ripping my whole hand, every deck running black splash for Vampiric, and seeing Windfall mid combo. Come on people can we have some logic to this arguement atleast. The first things to come off will surely be Land Tax and MoM. That's pretty much a given at this point so let's just take it from there instead of jumping headlong into unban Grim Monolith and Metalworker. Also what is our definition of broken? I mean in an alternate reality Lackey could have been banned when Legacy was created, now obviously some would be saying unban Lackey it can be handled by Swords and Darkblast and such, and apparently Wizards doesn't consider Lackey broken enough to ban it, but knowing what we know now I don't think it would be very easy to reach an agreement on wether unbanning Lackey in this theoretical situation would be acceptable or not. I for one know I wouldn't.

PunkRocker1134

09-16-2006, 09:14 PM

Well when you go saying Channel should never be unbanned "obviously" then turn around in the same post and say Black Vise, Mind Twist, Windfall, Skullclamp, and Vampiric Tutor deserve a second look it begs a WTF?
Come on people think before you go saying this stuff. I mean I think WoTC is bad at these kinda descisions then I see people comparing Mind Twist to a 3 mana Hymn...
I'd rather just have WoTC never touch this list again then play in a format full of first turn Vises, Skullclamping Golbins, Mind Twist with Duress backup ripping my whole hand, every deck running black splash for Vampiric, and seeing Windfall mid combo. Come on people can we have some logic to this arguement atleast. The first things to come off will surely be Land Tax and MoM. That's pretty much a given at this point so let's just take it from there instead of jumping headlong into unban Grim Monolith and Metalworker. Also what is our definition of broken? I mean in an alternate reality Lackey could have been banned when Legacy was created, now obviously some would be saying unban Lackey it can be handled by Swords and Darkblast and such, and apparently Wizards doesn't consider Lackey broken enough to ban it, but knowing what we know now I don't think it would be very easy to reach an agreement on wether unbanning Lackey in this theoretical situation would be acceptable or not. I for one know I wouldn't.

I included Skull Clamp, Mind Twist, Vamipiric tutor and a few others for reasons Im sorry I havent explained. I put them on their because I have heard people call for their unbannings. I know they are probably way to broken, but I would rather test it so next tiem some is like HEY LETS UNBAN them. I can atleast say I tested it and yea, it doesnt work, its way to broken. Sorry I should have said it in my beginning post. No need to seem so inflamatory bout it. Good enough reasoning there?

mogote

09-17-2006, 05:36 AM

I have been working on some way to actually play Mind Over Matter, which believe me is not easy. This is the best thing I could come up with, a basic variation of Spring Tide.

(decklist)

I would never want more than 1 Mind Over Matter over the course of a game, and it's extremely expensive. In my limited testing it's been fairly powerful if you can resolve it mid-combo, but even then it's almost definately a win-more card. Any thoughts or ideas on another way to use MoM in Legacy?
Are there any scenarios where MOM in this build would better than Peregrine Drake which let's you untap up to 5 lands for the investment of only one card and one less mana than MOM?

Bongo

09-17-2006, 06:45 AM

Interesting experiment.

I've tried to break Hermit Druid and Metalworker, but ended up without much success.

Hermit Druid was used in slightly modified Hermit Reanimator list from the old Extended. Turned out that the combo is very fragile and you pretty much lose the game if there is a well-timed Swords, Fanatic, Tormods Crypt, counter or any removal whatsoever (which is pretty rampant in Legacy).
I ran this against Goblins, Threshold and Solidarity a few times, but gave up pretty quickly because I lost too much.

Metalworker was also less than stellar. I built an artifact prison deck with Staff of Domination for a combo kill around it. While it fared better than the Hermit Druid deck, it had similar problems concerning removal and counters. The deck sometimes choked on me because I was stuck on high-cc artifacts when I couldn't use Metalworker. Also, Null Rod, Kataki and Serenity destroyed this deck.
I basically think it is worse than affinity while having the same problems.

I don't think "real" creatures deserve to be on the banned list simply because creature-based strategies are so fragile. Also, the unbanned Goblin Lackey is better than both Hermit Druid and Metalworker.

Edit: Earthcraft is being tested in a combo deck with Squirrel Nest, but so far it has not been doing very well. It is also severly underpowered when compared to Solidarity and Iggy Pop. There is no definitive conclusion yet, as there is something I might be overlooking. If someone manages to break this one, please post a decklist.

Kadaj

09-17-2006, 10:20 AM

Are there any scenarios where MOM in this build would better than Peregrine Drake which let's you untap up to 5 lands for the investment of only one card and one less mana than MOM?

I'll be honest with you, almost definately not. There's just no other deck that would ever want to even think about playing MoM. I think that alone is a fairly good indication of whether or not it deserves to be on the banned list. It sucks, plain and simple. I goldfished the list a bit and when MoM was resolved mid-combo you would simply never fizzle, but that deck barely ever fizzles anyway, and MoM is an incredibly huge dead draw in the opening hand.

I can still put this through a gauntlet, just to see if by some miracle some matchups change for better, but I think it's pretty much confirmed. MoM sucks.

Warmonger

09-17-2006, 10:34 AM

A couple of ideas:
MoM + Niv Mizzet = shot for 40
MoM + Quicksilver dagger = the same
MoM + Kiki + eee, Kavu Climber?
MoM + Arcanis
MoM as a part of Survival / opposition deck
MoM as a part of some new Tinker?
MoM + Cabal Coffers - da, good luck

Ehh... forget. :tongue:

Kadaj

09-17-2006, 10:41 AM

Eh... I'm going to work on a Rector list that uses MoM + Niv-Mizzet to win the game instantly. Of course, it'll have all the weaknesses of decks like that, mainly that graveyard hate eats it alive and it's not going to be at all resilient, but we'll see. I'll get back to you with the list.

dahcmai

09-17-2006, 10:55 AM

Rifter kind of screams to get it's hands on Land Tax doesn't it? Other than Loam control decks that would suck it up like mad, I think Legacy could handle the old Scroll tax decks being back. Parfait never was that great, it's just fun and different. Still Life from the loam will probably keep Land tax out forever now.

Illusionary mask still has the Phyrexian Dreadnaught combo that requires no power whatsoever to be fast. Dark Ritual - Mask - Naut seems pretty fast to me. Even Lord of Tressorhorn is pretty scary.

Hermit Druid is there because of the Sutured Ghoul reanimation combo. It was a turn 2 kill hasted Ghoul 20/20 that killed that one. I still wouldn't want to see that back even if it dies to swords. Just means everyone has to play a Bolt, FOW, or Swords in their deck and well that means the current combo decks become too slow all of a sudden. I hate relying on drawing one card to stop a super fast combo.

Mom is probably the only one worth bothering looking at anymore, the rest are there for a pretty good reason that won't get outdated anytime soon.

Warmonger

09-17-2006, 11:03 AM

Just means everyone has to play a Bolt, FOW, or Swords in their deck
And everyone does so due to Goblin Lackey appearing all the time. It's a different age, man.

Rastadon

09-17-2006, 11:21 AM

Edit: Earthcraft is being tested in a combo deck with Squirrel Nest, but so far it has not been doing very well. It is also severly underpowered when compared to Solidarity and Iggy Pop. There is no definitive conclusion yet, as there is something I might be overlooking. If someone manages to break this one, please post a decklist.

I've always thought that Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest should be in an enchantress deck. So much easier to kill with than Necra Sanctuary. Plus the ability to tap your own enchantresses to untap Santum is sweet.

Warmonger

09-17-2006, 11:43 AM

So much easier to kill with than Necra Sanctuary.
With WHAT? Is it supposed to be a joke?

Plus the ability to tap your own enchantresses to untap Santum is sweet.
Da, :

Tap an untapped creature you control: Untap target basic land.

Brushwagg

09-17-2006, 02:46 PM

So this pretty much boils down to one of those threads that's "I want this off the banned list". Your not going to convince Wizards of anything, The format is healthy. Look's like you want to make a format that's more broken then Vintage.

Also how testing do you need to know that Land Tax, Minds Desire, and Windfall are broken?? Not much. Mind over Matter how ever, proabably the least broken, right now, but it can stay gone.

TheDarkshineKnight

09-17-2006, 03:58 PM

You said Land Tax was broken? LOL.

Kadaj

09-17-2006, 04:43 PM

Mind Over Matter isn't broken at all. In fact, I guarantee there isn't a single deck that would EVER want to play it for any reason whatsoever. It sucks. Why the hell should it stay on the banned list when it's not going to see ANY play if it were off?

Land Tax may or may not be broken, that's what we're testing to find out. Windfall and Mind's Desire are both broken, that much we know. There has just been doubt expressed over whether or not they should be on the banned list or not by some members, hence the testing.

This has nothing to do with what we want, it has everything to do with what SHOULD happen.

edgewalker

09-17-2006, 05:06 PM

Bongo

09-17-2006, 05:10 PM

Hermit Druid is there because of the Sutured Ghoul reanimation combo. It was a turn 2 kill hasted Ghoul 20/20 that killed that one. I still wouldn't want to see that back even if it dies to swords. Just means everyone has to play a Bolt, FOW, or Swords in their deck and well that means the current combo decks become too slow all of a sudden. I hate relying on drawing one card to stop a super fast combo.

Turned out that the combo is very fragile and you pretty much lose the game if there is a well-timed Swords, Fanatic, Tormods Crypt, counter or any removal whatsoever (which is pretty rampant in Legacy).
I ran this against Goblins, Threshold and Solidarity a few times, but gave up pretty quickly because I lost too much.

The thing is, the combo has two fundamental weaknesses. First, Druid as an enabler is extremely vulnerable to almost every removal spell out there. Second, Sutured Ghoul as a win condition also can get handled by Swords, bounce, tap effects like Fire/Ice, Terminate, Putrify and Mortify which are seeing play in Legacy.
Edit: A flashbacked Therapy *can* clear the way, however, there are often multiple cards that wreck you (Swords, FoW, Daze, Counterspell in Gro alone) so a single Therapy won't save you.

Also, turn 2 kills are the exception, not the norm since you don't always draw Hermit Druid. The question you have to ask yourself: is this any better than other combo like IggyPop, Solidarity or even Belcher? My answer would be - no.
If you want to go the fattie route, the modern Reanimator lists are superior than a Hermit-based AngryGhoul combo imo.

Anarky87

09-17-2006, 05:45 PM

So this pretty much boils down to one of those threads that's "I want this off the banned list".

Hmm, well, too bad it isn't one of those, but nice try.

You're not going to convince Wizards of anything, The format is healthy. Look's like you want to make a format that's more broken then Vintage.

Fixed your grammar =) The format may be healthy, but there's also no sense in having a B/R list that's cluttered with old, non-useable cards or cards which were a mystery being banned in the first place. This isn't just a whiny cry to, "Unabn <Insert Banned Card>!!" People are actually testing out specific cards to see if their place on the list is indeed warranted. Of course there are cards that I would rather not see come off (Desire, Bargain, perhaps Oath), but the reason for ACTUALLY testing the rest is to see if they indeed are too powerful and format warping, or if they're readily handled by today's meta.

Also, how much testing do you need to know that Land Tax, Minds Desire, and Windfall are broken?? Not much. Mind over Matter how ever, proabably the least broken, right now, but it can stay gone.

Well, at the moment, I'm not seeing Land Tax's 'Uberness,' factor, but then that's why we're, omg, testing it to see. Confinement seems like a good start for it. Desire, well, duh, pretty powerful, but no sense not to test it; the same with Windfall. I think this thread could be very beneficial in providing the data to at least give some answers to either side of the debate.

Evil Roopey

09-17-2006, 05:49 PM

TheDarkshineKnight

09-17-2006, 06:13 PM

This is a little better than Lackey and everyone wants to have him banned.

Heh, considering Lackey isn't that great aside from first turn and only if you have an Incinerator in hand to deal with chum-blockers, then I'm not too worried about Metalworker. Honestly, Vial is the MVP of Goblins, since you don't have to deal direct damage to get a creature in.

Rastadon

09-17-2006, 06:16 PM

With WHAT? Is it supposed to be a joke?

Da, :

Swear to god, I've played against builds that use that.

MattH

09-17-2006, 06:21 PM

If Cephalid Life is the best thing you can do with Vamp, you're not trying very hard.

PunkRocker1134

09-17-2006, 06:50 PM

this seems to be getting pretty bad right now. Its jsut an experiment, so what if it is obivously broken. Doesnt hurt to try right? You can provide somethign that looks broken, now test it. See what happens, thats what I'm trying. No need to soudn all pissed off and all.
@ the Legacy metagame: yea its healthy and all, but there coudl be more decks that would be viable and not broken. Adding more equally viable decks to play isnt bad. is it?

Bongo

09-17-2006, 07:41 PM

Metal Worker + Staff of Domination is infinate mana. When this can happen on turn 2 it sounds kinda sick. This is a little better than Lackey and everyone wants to have him banned.

+ nice decklist

The deck you posted is very similar to my testing version. While on paper it seems like a behemoth, there were a few problems.
First, MonoBrown has a high mulligan percentage, since you often are stuck with hands that don't have the right mix of mana accel and threats.
Second, the deck starts to falter when Metalworker is handled by removal or by timely Wastelands.
Third, quick testing against some DtBs show that MonoBrown is not as favored as it is supposed to be. Deadguy and Threshold were tough, especially when going second.
Fourth, unlike Goblins, MonoBrown is not resistant to hate. Null Rod, Serenity, Kataki and similar artifact hate takes this deck down.

Conclusion: Metalworker is not broken.

On the other hand, Cephalid Life? Try Vamp in Tendrils combo...

Lego

09-17-2006, 09:11 PM

I still would suggest testing mask-naught. I have a list built that I've been testing and it's fast, but really inconsistent and fragile. Besides, it's a combo that doesn't win when you play it. Infact you give your opponent two draw steps to find an answer.

I just want to play Ninja Mask in T1.5! So much so, in fact, that I've played it several times without the Masknaught combo, just cuz I miss it so. I think it would quickly become a Tier 1 deck, although that may not be the case, considering the vast differences between the T1 and T1.5 metagame. It would at least be objectively powerful. Anyone want to test?

Evil Roopey

09-17-2006, 09:24 PM

On the other hand, Cephalid Life? Try Vamp in Tendrils combo...

How is Vamp any better than Mystical in a Tendrils deck? We already have 8 of those.

Bryant Cook

09-17-2006, 09:49 PM

All this talk and no one mentions unbanning Yawg-Win, FOR SHAME.

Kadaj

09-17-2006, 09:58 PM

I'd like to think we're not quite that stupid. Borderline maybe, but hopefully not on that level.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-17-2006, 10:01 PM

All this talk and no one mentions unbanning Yawg-Win, FOR SHAME.

Well, in Iggy Pop, for instance, not only would it be cheaper than the name sake card for a broader effect, but it would also obliviate the need to run Leyline of the Void to counteract the recurring Force of Will problem. So, just in this particular deck, for instance, it's already adding mana, freeing up card slots, and giving you more cards back than the already powerful Ill Gotten Gains. To be fair, it has less use in multiples, but it's still quite a bit more powerful than a card that's already pushing Tendrils back to viability single-handedly.

OMGHEACTUALLYEXPLAINEDHISPOSITIONINSTEADOFCALLINGUANOOBZOMGLOLACOPTER!ROFL!!!11!!!eleven

Phantom

09-17-2006, 10:12 PM

How is Vamp any better than Mystical in a Tendrils deck? We already have 8 of those.

Vamp can get land; Vamp can get LED; Vamp can get Confidant; Vamp can get Leyline. Not sure if any of that is useful since I'm not an IGGy player. Two things I am pretty sure are useful is that Vamp is black and Vamp is hard to screw with predict.

dontbiteitholmes

09-17-2006, 10:22 PM

My opinions:

I don't know if anyone realizes this but there is already a deck that is Replenish starved. Solitaire would be rediculous with the card. It would have an amazing game against Control decks because of this card and this card alone. This means that it would beat aggro and control and the only deck I can think of that it would lose to is Solidarity. Now thats a healthy format: Solidarity vs. Solitaire.

Metal Worker + Staff of Domination is infinate mana. When this can happen on turn 2 it sounds kinda sick. This is a little better than Lackey and everyone wants to have him banned.

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MI] Crystal Vein
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
2 [DS] Sundering Titan
2 [4E] Triskelion
4 [UD] Metalworker

// Spells
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Mindslaver
4 [FD] Staff of Domination
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [US] Smokestack

Vamp is something I don't think would be overpowered. It would only imrpove consistancy which isn't a bad thing. It was in extended a couple of years ago and wasn't overpowered at all. In fact it made a lot of decks viable that weren't at all before. A deck that I would love to see play in Legacy is Cephalid Life.

From old Extended:

1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Brushland
1 Caves of Koilos
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Underground River
1 Yavimaya Coast
2 Starlit Sanctum
3 Nomads en-Kor
3 Daru Spiritualist
2 Krosan Cloudscraper
1 Sutured Ghoul
3 Cephalid Illusionist
4 Brainstorm
1 Dragon Wings
1 Dragon Breath
1 Exhume
4 Vampiric Tutor
3 Living Wish
2 Krosan Reclamation
2 Shuko
1 Worthy Cause
2 Worldly Tutor
1 Reanimate
3 Cabal Therapy
4 AEther Vial
SB: 1 Starlit Sanctum
SB: 1 Nomads en-Kor
SB: 1 Daru Spiritualist
SB: 1 Cephalid Illusionist
SB: 1 Dragon Shadow
SB: 2 Kami of Ancient Law
SB: 1 Battlefield Scrounger
SB: 2 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Forsaken City
SB: 1 Energy Field
SB: 1 Rootwater Thief
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Uktabi Orangutan

Now thats a deck, and Vamp would only produce more decks that are rediculously hard to play and very scary when they are played correctly. Vamp would up the learning curve to enter the format because it would make the format much more skill-intensive and much more fun to play.

First off Solitaire would still suck against combo in general. It could never be a tier 1 deck because of this and aggro has a grip of possible answers for it in the sideboard. Goblins can splash either white or green destroy all enchanments and win on that turn, Angel Stompy can Tempest of Light and Armageddon which also sucks. For some reason people tend to refer to Enchantress as a combo deck when it seems to play more like a control deck to me. It beats most aggro decks (because of lack of hate), is very marginal vs. aggro-control, sucks vs. combo, and is descent against 50% of control decks, I say it could use the help but I doubt they will unban Replenish and it might not be the greatest idea anyways.
Second, for Metalworker, while the second turn infinite win scenario is scary I think the real issue is all of the other cards it has synergy with and this is the main issue most people seem to be disregarding. If the only play was turn 1 Metalworker Turn 2 win it would be admittedly savage, but when the same deck can go turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 2 Metalworker, turn 3 win things just tend to get broken. That's not even to mention the rest of the deck I figured Worker might go into.
Lastly Vampiric Tutor is brooooken. Consistancy may not be a bad thing to you, and you may claim the format "More Fun", but when every deck splashes black to run a playset of Vamp tutors and garbage like a singleton Nether Void or whatever I could see things getting really unfun really quick.

Lego

09-17-2006, 11:52 PM

Vamp is hard to screw with predict.

Not true. It's hard to draw an extra card while screwing Vamp up with Predict, but you can still screw it up just as easily. Whether or not I guess what you've fetched for (which in a lot of situations I should be able to do) it's still going to the yard. Mystical just guarantees I will draw two in the process :smile:

Phantom

09-18-2006, 12:00 AM

Not true. It's hard to draw an extra card while screwing Vamp up with Predict, but you can still screw it up just as easily. Whether or not I guess what you've fetched for (which in a lot of situations I should be able to do) it's still going to the yard. Mystical just guarantees I will draw two in the process :smile:

Further proof I shouldn't post after a 4 hour nap while playing in a poker tourney. Thanks for the correction.

Bongo

09-18-2006, 05:12 AM

Second, for Metalworker, while the second turn infinite win scenario is scary I think the real issue is all of the other cards it has synergy with and this is the main issue most people seem to be disregarding.
If the only play was turn 1 Metalworker Turn 2 win it would be admittedly savage, but when the same deck can go turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 2 Metalworker, turn 3 win things just tend to get broken.

Isn't Trinisphere the broken card then? I think it is.

Anyone remembers WelderMUD from the old format? That deck was a lot more degenerate since it had 4 Mishra's Workshop in addition to Metalworker, and still didn't dominate the entire format at that time.
I fail to see how Metalworker decks would be completely broken, much less dominant.

Evil Roopey

09-18-2006, 08:14 AM

Isn't Trinisphere the broken card then? I think it is.

Anyone remembers WelderMUD from the old format? That deck was a lot more degenerate since it had 4 Mishra's Workshop in addition to Metalworker, and still didn't dominate the entire format at that time.
I fail to see how Metalworker decks would be completely broken, much less dominant.

That's because the combo dekcs were winning on turn one and the control decks had Drain.

Bongo

09-18-2006, 08:31 AM

That's because the combo dekcs were winning on turn one and the control decks had Drain.

Actually, the most degenerate combo during that time, SpoilsDragon, won on turn 2.

I understand the concerns about Metalworker, but testing has shown it doesn't reach wMUD's power level. It would be a viable strategy, but today's decks can deal with it.
This is valid only if Grim Monolith stays banned, of course.

Warmonger

09-18-2006, 09:35 AM

Actually, the most degenerate combo during that time, SpoilsDragon, won on turn 2.
I've seen Foodchain Goblins winning on turn 1, so there is no exaggeration. Combo decks can be really sick in this format and that is why current metagame consist of Stax, Fish and various U controls. There is no way people would play anything else.
Legacy bans have on purpose solving this problem.

Anarky87

09-18-2006, 10:06 AM

Combo decks can be really sick in this format and that is why current metagame consist of Stax, Fish and various U controls

I thought the current metagame was Goblins, Thresh, and Solidarity?

Bongo

09-18-2006, 10:09 AM

I've seen Foodchain Goblins winning on turn 1, so there is no exaggeration.

May I ask how that was possible? What's in that opening hand? Legacy FCG could go off on turn 2 the earliest as far as I knew.

Different topic: Earthcraft.
The SquirrelNest combo is chaff, both as a deck built around it and as a kill option in Enchantress. Words of War/Wilding are better kill options, taking up one less slot.
Goldfishing was nice, but playing against Threshold + Deadguy was not. Though I didn't test against Solidarity, I suspect the matchup would also be unfavorable.

These three cards could be unbanned without causing any harm:

1) Mind over Matter
2) Hermit Druid
3) Earthcraft

Maybe there are some other unbannable cards, but I haven't tested them yet.

Evil Roopey

09-18-2006, 10:25 AM

2) Hermit Druid

Why are you people bent on having these creatures that just win games? We already have Lackey, is he not enough? Why do we need Metalworker and Druid to make it so that our entire format revolves around turn 1. This isn't making the format better or momre fun, it's making it more broken. That isn't what we want. If you really want to do broken things go to Vintage. We want a format that is fun as fuck. As it stands the only degenerate card in Legacy is Lackey, is you people's solution to that to unban more broken cards to even it out?

Stop it.

Warmonger

09-18-2006, 10:41 AM

May I ask how that was possible? What's in that opening hand? Legacy FCG could go off on turn 2 the earliest as far as I knew.
Legacy? But we are talking about T1 afaik (damn, why I've noticed it after writting the whole post)

Anyway, check this out.

Opening hand:

Black Lotus
Ancient Tomb
Mox
Food Chain
Goblin Ringleader
Goblin Recruiter
something

1.Use 5 of 6 mana to play Fod Chain and recruiter. Put all goblins from the librray on top.
2.Remove recruiter, you get 3 + 1 mana floating. Play Ringleader, draw Ringleader + Warchief + 2xPiledriver.
3.Sac Ringleader, play the next Ringleader.
4.Repeat four times, so you have 8 mana and 12 goblins in hand.
5.Eee, Warchief & swing for 40?

SpatulaOfTheAges

09-18-2006, 11:16 AM

Why are you people bent on having these creatures that just win games? We already have Lackey, is he not enough? Why do we need Metalworker and Druid to make it so that our entire format revolves around turn 1. This isn't making the format better or momre fun, it's making it more broken. That isn't what we want. If you really want to do broken things go to Vintage. We want a format that is fun as fuck. As it stands the only degenerate card in Legacy is Lackey, is you people's solution to that to unban more broken cards to even it out?

Stop it.

Hermit Druid doesn't reliably drop turn 1 without further distorting a bad decklist that requires a terrible mana base, several dead slots and a 2 mana 1/1 that doesn't win when he drops, and doesn't win when he taps the majority of the time. Solidarity and goblins can race this thing no problem, Threshold would bludgeon it with counters, StP and Needle.

revenge_inc

09-18-2006, 12:28 PM

Holy fck! This thread has degenerated into a flame war fast:frown: ...so much for the close and friendly legacy community-:tongue:

The only input I have is that after extensive testing I have found that Mind over Matter isn't that broken...for the rest, not sure.

TheDarkshineKnight

09-18-2006, 12:32 PM

There's a fundamental difference between Yawgmoth's Will and Hermit Druid, however. If Will resolves, it's essentially game over. If Hermit Druid resolves, you can still deal with it AND any jankiness that occurs with its best friend, Sutured Ghoul.

Essentially, it comes down to how powerful the card is when it resolves. Will wins the game, where as Hermit Druid does not.

Ancestral Recall is a completely different story, however. While it's not a game winner like Will, the advantage it bestows upon the user is so unbelievably great that it simply has to be banned. This isn't Vintage where we restrict a card; a card is either banned to zero or it can be used in a full set. Ancestral Recall as four-of is simply too much card advanatge, and thus requires everyone to essentially play blue so as to keep up.

To finish this, Legacy has always been a creature-centric format due to the lack of good combo decks. That's why everyone runs creature removal; not because of Lackey. Lackey might make it more viable to run swords and what not, but its certainly not the reason.

Warmonger

09-18-2006, 04:21 PM

Some wrods about Hermit Druid... don't think only about the combo with Ghoul, which is totally unreliable with current card pile. But just consider abusing him in decks like Garden, any Loam-based list, Friggorid, hipotetical Dregatog, Turboland (!) or every single deck that might be happy to mill a lot of cards. Beyond that, he's quite nice on his own - provides us pretty nice card advantage in form of basic lands. He's like Lackey or Confidant - reasonable guy with additional devastating engine.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-18-2006, 05:30 PM

The difference between Goblin Lackey, Yawgmoth's Will, Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm, Ill Gotten Gain, Goblin Recruiter, Aether Vial, Mountain, Helldozer, Sensei's Divining Top, Urza's Bauble, and Dragonstorm and Hermit Druid is that unlike every other card listed, Hermit Druid literally requires your deck to be full of nothing but terrible cards for it to be "good". You're running no basics, multiple Krosan Reclamations, a playset of Krosan Cloudscrapers, Reanimates with no targets other than Cloudscrapers, Dragon Breaths, etc., etc.. Your entire deck is devoted to sucking so that if you untap with a Hermit Druid, and if Krosan Reclamation is not countered, they don't have Brain Freeze, they don't Wasteland one of your lands or play an ill-time StP or anything else goes wrong, you can win. This deck is in every way worse than Goblin Charbelcher. Stfu.

Anarky87

09-18-2006, 06:45 PM

I think this topic needs to have a little more discussion pertaining to its title and a few people just shutting the hell up. Honestly, 5th grade is over I hope for many of you. So shutup. We can do without the flames, and we can also do without unfounded, unsupported, thrown together decklists that supposedly, "Break the format."

This thread should have the same requirements as other divisions of this site have. If you're going to post a decklist there should be card discussions, and specific matchup analysis/detail. There should be no more:

"//Lands//
X Lands

//Creatures//
X Creatures

//Other//
X Other spells

I have now demonstrated that this deck breaks the format, and have also done so without the need to test. Anyone who thinks otherwise can suck goat dick."

The only real discussion I've seen is from PunkRocker, Bongo, and a few other members that signed up to do this. So the flaming and infantile name calling can end any time now so actual discussion can resume. If you can't make a suggestion or critique without having a psychotic episode, then just keep your mouth shut, click the link to go back to the forum index, and leave the discussion alone.

Edit:
I shouldve added that if I was Roopey I would also call him a cocklickingsonofabitches. Im just standing up for him.

So standing up for him means you'd act just as ridiculous? Instead of being a mediator and the cool head of the group, you'd rather incite more animosity? Somehow I fail to see how that handles any problem.

SillyMetalGAT

09-18-2006, 06:56 PM

Come on guys is this really necessary...It would suck for the mods to shut everything down because of personal attacks (then we'll all have to stfu-lol)

Maybe thats what needs to happen. This discussion doesn't do anything. You think that the DCI will see this and change the B&R list? The cards are banned because people with more authority than any of us said so.

PunkRocker1134

09-18-2006, 08:26 PM

Well its worth a shot on the banned list. Come on I want to see a more open format even though this is a very wide open format. I'm going to adress my opinions on certain cards and please dont flame them. Seriously stop the flaming and all. Commenting and all is cool but not flaming. I think we need to test before we go crazy. So please if all you want to do is argue and flame, instead of suggest ideas and test with us, then shut the hell up. Sorry to say it that way but please.

Metalworker: I dunno, I dont like the card. its open to so much Hate, , any playable burn, STP and other creature removal, and freakin artifact hate. Yea it has a strogn ability. but if you playing this guy first turn then your asking for it to be killed. Maybe Im wrogn but I think it is worth testing, it looks broken. But common on use common sense. its a 3 mana 1/2. I would rather be playign trinisphere first turn. And thats much scary,espcially when followed by Tangle Wire/ Smokestack/ Crucible and Wasteland.

Hermit Druid: I think roopey actually covered this guy. Hes a 1/1. A FREAKIN 1/1!! He requires running a deck with a lot of stuff that sucks. Again not exactly something I think is broken. When they counter Krosan Reclamation you lose. They bounce/STP the your sutured ghoul you lose. Come on, lets agree it should be tested.

Mind over matter: i think we all agree on this.

Land Tax: Come on you're deck needs all basics. And will probably lose to Solidarity. and most other combo as a matter of fact. But it does have some potenial. With Solitary Confinement, Zuran Orb, Coutnermaigc, Scroll Rack and Enlightened Tutor. Worth testing, yea. Worth bitching about, no.

Black Vise: yea it looks broken, but lets give it a shot. Its better then saying OMG thsi is obivously broken. This way we can say yea, its been proven to be broken.

SKullclamp: see black Vise.

Windfall: see skullclamp and black vise.

Vampiric Tutor: See clamp, Vise, and windfall

Demonic Consulation: yea see above.

Replenish: yea it would help Enchantress, but seriously. How much could it help, will it make it broken? Probably not. Might it make it viable, maybe. Replenish as the central piece of a combo deck. Maybe it is broken maybe it isn't testign will tell.

Mind Twist: maybe its broken or maybe it isnt. Testing it will tell i guess.

@ not find the right deck and good testing: Maybe, jsut maybe, if we had more actually helpful comments it would be easier to get decks optimized fast and test well. I was actually hoping mroe people would be helpful instead of flaming. See I was hoping a good portion of the site would give a damn and help out. If some of the smarter guys on this site like Diablos, Godzilla, Roppey, Eldrial, and IBA ( I know theres many others but these are the guys I see the most posting) would actually help and contribute then we coudl get somewhere. So theres my pretty big post about my opinons. Say what you will but please try to contribute.

edIt: took out Pithing Needle hating on Metalworker part. Sorry botu that.

Kadaj

09-18-2006, 08:32 PM

If someone mentions Pithing Needle stopping Metalworker again I'm going to blow a proverbial gasket. Metalworker's ability is a MANA ability, and thus is completely immune to Pithing Needle.

Hermit Druid was extremely fast in the old extended where FoW, STP, ect were not played because the format was almost entirely combo oriented. I have no doubt that without all the tools it had in extended that it won't be nearly as good in Legacy. How good could it be? I have no idea, but I highly doubt it'll be broken. Still, testing (hey, isn't that what this thread's about? ZOMGZ!) would help us figure it out one way or the other.

People are reading a bit too far into this, we don't necessarily WANT Black Vise, Windfall, Vampiric Tutor, ect, unbanned. We want to know if they deserve to be banned. Everything imaginable points to yes they do, but we're going to test it anyway. In all likelyhood, we'll prove what we've all known all along and move on.

Anarky87

09-18-2006, 08:56 PM

To get back to the task at hand, what deck is everyone currently testing? So far PunkRocker has suggested this list for Land Tax:

U/W Confinement Tax

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [MR] Plains (3)
6 [8E] Island (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [IA] Zuran Orb
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [LG] Land Tax
4 [6E] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [SH] Mana Leak
SB: 4 [U] Swords to Plowshares

No real discussion was established on this list, so, to get things back on track, discuss.

P.S. I think it might be better, perhaps, to only do a few cards at a time, that way we're not swarmed by 5,000 decklists sporting different banned cards. So maybe we, as a group, should tackle, say, 2 banned cards at a time. That seems more feasible.

MattH

09-18-2006, 09:01 PM

PunkRocker1134

09-18-2006, 09:07 PM

Are you guys seriously trying to break Tax and MoMa out of all the options afforded you? I mean bully for you if that's your bag, but I figured everyone was pretty much on the same page regarding those two.

We just want to have results that we can show. Seriously we get to the big stuff when we do but we want solid results for everythign we suggested keeping banned or unbanning. Yea Mom And Land tax are horrible, but testing is worth it just incase.

TheDarkshineKnight

09-18-2006, 09:11 PM

I argee with Roopey. Everytime I see I post from you I want to throw up. All you do is talk about unbanning proven broken cards. Stop, its annoying. Go to a different forum and do that. Make some fantasy magic cards and shit.

Theres no reason to be a rude asshole to great minds on the source whether or not their an adept. If I was a mod I would ban you and not lose sleep over it.

The only cards that I said should be unbanned that are actually causing an argument are Metalworker, Hermit Druid, Entomb, and Grim Monolith. I haven't see anyone get pissy about Replenish, Earthcraft, Mind over Matter, or Land Tax. You must be confusing me for someone else. The only thing that should stay banned that I had said should be unbanned is Black Vise, and I realized my stupidity soon after.

And in all honesty, I only flamed Roopey because he seemed to be whining about how degenerate Lackey is in every other post and it was beginning to annoy me. If Lackey were degenerate, it would have been banned.

SillyMetalGAT

09-18-2006, 09:26 PM

The only cards that I said should be unbanned that are actually causing an argument are Metalworker, Hermit Druid, Entomb, and Grim Monolith. I haven't see anyone get pissy about Replenish, Earthcraft, Mind over Matter, or Land Tax. You must be confusing me for someone else. The only thing that should stay banned that I had said should be unbanned is Black Vise, and I realized my stupidity soon after.

And in all honesty, I only flamed Roopey because he seemed to be whining about how degenerate Lackey is in every other post and it was beginning to annoy me. If Lackey were degenerate, it would have been banned.

But none of those should be unbanned. Hermit Druid is banned because the deck would have auto-wins game 1. Nobody maindecks shit that can beat that. It makes it such an unfair combo deck its not even funny. Land tax would make control stupidly good. Imagine MWC with Land Tax in it..... can you say BROKEN? People wouldn't use Weathered Wayfarer at that point. Mind over Matter sounds ok to unban but I'm sure theres a reason I dont see. Earthcraft gives a rediculous combo with that silly squirrel land thats very hard to stop. It's no fun when opponents can make 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 creatures turn 2. Not fun at all.

TheDarkshineKnight

09-18-2006, 09:40 PM

Meh. At least the King of Legacy is on my side. :)

cathl

09-18-2006, 10:11 PM

There is no point to all this testing because if the DCI was even going to consider removing cards from the banned list, it would be done one at a time. Mind Over Matter is the only one I'm sure we can get a full consensus on. I wouldn't even bother testing other things until Mind Over Matter is removed from the banned list.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-18-2006, 10:25 PM

You are completely right. We should unban Recall and Will too because Force, Duress, Therapy, Counterspell, and Daze see a shitload of play in this format.

Actually, while it took them many years to finally stop fearing the card's great and terrible power, Recall is currently off the banned list. Legends fans everywhere rejoice.

Force of will is already unbanned, although a number of people have called for it's banning for being too powerful and unfun. Of course, those people are free to run C. Spell, Daze, Duress, Cabal Therapy and Force Spike against it if they like.[/subtlety]

Ridiculous Hat

09-18-2006, 10:47 PM

Hermit Druid doesn't reliably drop turn 1 without further distorting a bad decklist that requires a terrible mana base, several dead slots and a 2 mana 1/1 that doesn't win when he drops, and doesn't win when he taps the majority of the time. Solidarity and goblins can race this thing no problem, Threshold would bludgeon it with counters, StP and Needle.Um, did you play during tinker extended at all? This was the list that top 16'ed PT New Orleans.

2 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Brass
4 City of Traitors
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Underground River
4 Vault of Whispers
1 Yavimaya Coast

4 Hermit Druid
3 Krosan Cloudscraper
2 Sutured Ghoul

4 Buried Alive
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Corpse Dance
1 Dragon Breath
4 Duress
2 Exhume
1 Krosan Reclamation
4 Mox Diamond
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Reanimate
4 Vampiric Tutor
---
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Coffin Purge
1 Crippling Fatigue
3 Defense Grid
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Naturalize
4 Propaganda
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Woodripper

Now, while I know Vamp is banned, turn 1 Hermit is not all that hard to get. Every single time he taps, the game is over within two turns. Threshold would probably beat it just like it beats every combo deck, sure, but this deck can race Goblins and Solidarity. Think of it as a better version of salvagers game.

The deck may or may not still be broken, but the mana base really isn't that bad. All you have to do is play artifact lands.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-18-2006, 10:50 PM

Ridiculous Hat

09-18-2006, 10:54 PM

Why is that list better than Salvagers game? Salvagers has room for more than 4 pieces of discard at least, and better dig.

What does that deck do if it draws double Cloudscraper and/or the Dragon's Breath, incidentally?It Cabal Therapies itself.

The list is better because Salvagers game doesn't have Hermit Druid. That card is stupid good.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-18-2006, 10:58 PM

It Cabal Therapies itself.

The list is better because Salvagers game doesn't have Hermit Druid. That card is stupid good.

"You guys clearly don't remember how good Hermit Druid is. Check out how much better this list is than Salvagers Game."

"Why is that list better than Salvagers Game."

"Uh, duh, it has Hermit Druid?"

Ridiculous Hat

09-19-2006, 01:21 AM

"You guys clearly don't remember how good Hermit Druid is. Check out how much better this list is than Salvagers Game."

"Why is that list better than Salvagers Game."

"Uh, duh, it has Hermit Druid?"Yes, this is what I said. This is because Hermit Druid is retarded. It's a one-card combo that guarantees the win the turn of or after its activation. Yes, it is disruptible, just like every other card/deck ever, but Hermit Druid is what pushes these decks over the top.

Note also that this is an extended deck while Salvagers has access to much older cards. It wouldn't surprise me if an updated version of this deck turned out to be quite silly, and I think that Hermit Druid is powerful enough that it deserves to stay on the list. The presence of a few good answers does not mean the threats should be present-- magic doesn't need more coinflip scenarios.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-19-2006, 01:56 AM

frogboy

09-19-2006, 02:02 AM

If I have to go through this thread one more time for trolling and flames, I'm going to close it.

Ridiculous Hat

09-19-2006, 03:47 AM

By that argument, Charbelcher needs banning. Even more so, since it's not disruptible by StP and Mogg Fanatic. Yet no one has screamed to ban Belcher or a component thereof in two years, and no one plays the deck. Why? Because people that play lots of risky coin flip-type decks lose pretty consistently, and good players would rather be able to rely on playskill and a fallback plan.Charbelcher doesn't cost 2 and this deck has a backup plan-- dancing ghoul etc. This deck also has hand disruption. Like, you can't really tell me there's a direct parallel between the two. Charbelcher is obviously way worse-- that's a card that's potentially broken by the acceleration present in the environment, which is why Tinker/Grim Monolith/Ancient Tomb were banned in old ext and not belcher itself.

Bongo

09-19-2006, 06:40 AM

This is because Hermit Druid is retarded. It's a one-card combo that guarantees the win the turn of or after its activation.

It wouldn't surprise me if an updated version of this deck turned out to be quite silly, and I think that Hermit Druid is powerful enough that it deserves to stay on the list.

The purpose of the thread was to test banned cards to see if they are really degenerate. However, this discussion is a typical clash of personal opinions. What irks me is that almost none of these opinions are based on testing, which is the purpose of this thread.

I'm trying to prove my opinions with testing results, but apparently my testing results go ignored... I know that my testing results won't be enough to say for safe that a card can be unbanned, but at least it's an indicator.

Hermit Druid was used in slightly modified Hermit Reanimator list from the old Extended. Turned out that the combo is very fragile and you pretty much lose the game if there is a well-timed Swords, Fanatic, Tormods Crypt, counter or any removal whatsoever (which is pretty rampant in Legacy).
I ran this against Goblins, Threshold and Solidarity a few times, but gave up pretty quickly because I lost too much.

A little more analysis why Hermit Druid didn't do well: there are three (technically four) vulnerable points.

1) Hermit Druid
2) the reanimation spell
3) Sutured Ghoul
optional: 4) Deckbuilding requirements: no basics, lots of stuff unusable if drawn

All the current decks can attack at least one of those weak points. That doesn't make a good combo deck, much less a dominating one worthy of a banned card.
In testing, the deck also had a high mulligan ratio, because there is no good tutor like Vampiric available and you have no way of putting unwanted cards back unless you splash blue for Brainstorm, further destabilizing the manabase.

The SquirrelNest combo is chaff, both as a deck built around it and as a kill option in Enchantress. Words of War/Wilding are better kill options, taking up one less slot.
Goldfishing was nice, but playing against Threshold + Deadguy was not. Though I didn't test against Solidarity, I suspect the matchup would also be unfavorable.

This is another combo that was too fragile. Green is not a good combo color, and you have to dip heavily into it because of the 1GG cost of Squirrel Nest. I splashed blue for library manipulation and counters to cover some weaknesses. This morphed the deck into a control-combo shell. Logically, Deadguy and Threshold ripped it into shreds.

1) MonoBrown has a high mulligan percentage, since you often are stuck with hands that don't have the right mix of mana accel and threats.
2) the deck starts to falter when Metalworker is handled by removal or by timely Wastelands.
3) quick testing against some DtBs show that MonoBrown is not as favored as it is supposed to be. Deadguy and Threshold were tough, especially when going second.
4) unlike Goblins, MonoBrown is not resistant to hate. Null Rod, Serenity, Kataki and similar artifact hate takes this deck down.

This is probably the most debatable one. When it has good opening hands, the deck is a contender. However, the points mentioned above are serious problems. Additionally, Goblins with the green splash for Hooligan is not a good matchup, even without the devastating Artifact Mutation.

I'm testing Replenish now, one version with the Pandeburst combo and the second with SquirrelNest/Earthcraft. Early results indicate that this is another tier2 combo, but more testing needs to be done.

tivadar

09-19-2006, 08:40 AM

I'm more than willing to consider Hermit Druid, Mind over Matter, and Land Tax for unbanning (all of which seem to be pretty innocent). Though druid and land tax are good, and can be added to some rather good decks, I doubt these decks will be any better than the combo decks already out there. Iggy wins T2-T3, so would a druid deck, correct? And both are susceptible to graveyard hate, but iggy isn't susceptible to creatuer removal...

Mind over matter is a no-brainer (no pun intended). It's just too expensive to be worth the effort in any deck, especially with the essential turn being T4, and no really good ways to speed it up like in vintage.

Land Tax could probably come back as well. Keep in mind that your opponent can still play around tax by having less lands, and that it fetches basic lands, which means you have to build your deck around that. Sure, it's huge card advantage, but the conditions for that advantage are pretty strict. How is it any more broken than loam (my guess is that it's actually less broken, in which case, loam should be banned :-P). The two together, however, could in theory be a problem.

Metalworker: I don't think this can be unbanned. Granted, this is somewhat of a hunch, but I can see it being abused far too much in 5/3, stax, and other decks of that style.

Skullclamp: Dude, shut up, deserves to be tested my left butt cheek. This WAS in legacy, and it DID break the format. By all means, if you want to bring it back and watch AS and goblins go apeshit on your ass (hell, even kobolds), go right ahead, but this one has proven itself to be BROKEN.

SpatulaOfTheAges

09-19-2006, 09:21 AM

Um, did you play during tinker extended at all? This was the list that top 16'ed PT New Orleans.

1xIrrelevant decklist

Now, while I know Vamp is banned, turn 1 Hermit is not all that hard to get. Every single time he taps, the game is over within two turns. Threshold would probably beat it just like it beats every combo deck, sure, but this deck can race Goblins and Solidarity.

The deck may or may not still be broken, but the mana base really isn't that bad. All you have to do is play artifact lands.

Are you kidding me? Have you tested it against any of the tier legacy decks? The mana base is effing awful. What kind of base is terrible, exactly, if not one composed soley of non-basics? In my testing it went 50-50 with Goblins, and couldn't build Landstill. Since then Goblins gained Port, Landstill got Needle and a faster clock, and Iggy Pop was developed.

A) The deck requires the succesful casting of a 4 of,
B) Said 4 of is a 1/1 for 2 mana,
C) Said 4 of does not have haste,
D) Said 4 of does not win the game the turn he taps, if he taps.
E) If all these pieces align, they have to do so before turn 3 reliably to compete with Iggy Pop, which is more reselient, and runs a 4x that beats your deck and does not respond well to Therapy.

Think of it as a better version of salvagers game.

Why on earth would I do that?

But none of those should be unbanned. Hermit Druid is banned because the deck would have auto-wins game 1.

Every combo deck has auto wins game 1 in Legacy. They're called board control decks. Want to know the exception? Combo decks that need to untap with creatures.

Nobody maindecks shit that can beat that.

Thresh
4xStP
4xFoW
2xCSpell
3xDaze
0-4xPithing Needle
0-4xMeddling Mage

Goblins(Turn 4 average kill)
4xIncinerator
4xFanatic
4xWasteland
4xPort
0-3xSGC
0-1xSharpshooter
0-3xStP/Pyrokinesis/Disenchant against Moxen

Solidarity(Turn 4 average kill)
4xFoW
4xRemand
3xCunning Wish
4xTurnabout

Iggy Pop(Turn 3 average kill)
4xLeyline of the Void
1xEchoing Truth

Should I bother going into the Sui/Confidant decks?

This isn't Yawg's Will. Yawg'sWill is vulnerable to only counters and GY hate. It wins when it hits. And the win is not a creature. It's not even Lackey. Lackey is 1 mana. That makes all the difference. Even if he doesn't make it through, he still only cost one card to put pressure on turn 1. Druid either waits for turn 3 to do anything or requires card disadvantage to accelerate. Card disadvantage in a deck that frequently needs to mulligan anyway due to either dead cards or not drawing it's 4 of. These problems are actually not alleviated by playing him in Friggorid or LftL decks as has been suggested. It requires distorting of decent decklists with bad cards. To support Druid you need Reclamation, reanimation spells, Surtured Ghoul, possibly Cloudscraper.

Land tax would make control stupidly good. Imagine MWC with Land Tax in it..... can you say BROKEN? People wouldn't use Weathered Wayfarer at that point.

Stop the effing presses. We've got a card that's better than Weathered Wayfarer.

Actually, when Land Tax was legal, people still played Wayfarer over it, because it gets Wasteland, which is, you know, useful, as opposed to just getting basics, which, well, isn't.

re:

Skullclamp - Saying it was proven to be broken in Legacy doesn't seem to be based on much of anything. When did that happen? I remember it being pretty bad in Legacy goblins, since it kills your board, isn't a goblin, and the tempo loss isn't worth the card disadvantage in Legacy, where you have to worry about combo. It's answerable by Thresh and gives them the oppourtunity to play the beatdown. It may be broken, but it hasn't been tested adequetely.

Also, mentioning the word "kobold" undermines your credibility. You may want to watch out for that.

Replenish - Can everyone agree this deck is terrible? Please? It would put Enchantress solidly back in tier 2-1.5 range. That's it. I mean honestly.

Entomb - I'm not sure I like this card being unbanned with LftL, and Reanimator, and maybe Iggy Pop running around. Somebody may want to build a version of LftL with this for testing.

SillyMetalGAT

09-19-2006, 10:48 AM

Skullclamp - Saying it was proven to be broken in Legacy doesn't seem to be based on much of anything. When did that happen? I remember it being pretty bad in Legacy goblins, since it kills your board, isn't a goblin, and the tempo loss isn't worth the card disadvantage in Legacy, where you have to worry about combo. It's answerable by Thresh and gives them the oppourtunity to play the beatdown. It may be broken, but it hasn't been tested adequetely.

Also, mentioning the word "kobold" undermines your credibility. You may want to watch out for that.

I dont know if you ever played Standard, but when you have Affinity with Skullclamp, the deck gets STUPID. Especially with Genesis Chamber. If you dont believe me, you can try it, but anyone with a legit IQ can see thats just a silly combo. Same with Kobolds, as a matter of fact, Kobold Clamp probably wouldn't be a bad combo deck at all considering it could go off turn 1 pretty damn consistantly. As for Land Tax, would you like to play against AS using it? That card would smooth out AS's mana base perfectly, and would probably make the deck THE best aggro deck in the format. Maybe we need that.

NoGameShow

09-19-2006, 10:54 AM

I dont know if you ever played Standard, but when you have Affinity with Skullclamp, the deck gets STUPID.

Goblins can also get ridiculously crazy when it has a draw engine.

SillyMetalGAT

09-19-2006, 10:56 AM

Goblins can also get ridiculously crazy when it has a draw engine.

Spat already made the point that its not as powerful in Legacy as it was in Standard days. But oh man that deck was a HOUSE

quicksilver

09-19-2006, 10:59 AM

I dont know if you ever played Standard, but when you have Affinity with Skullclamp, the deck gets STUPID. Especially with Genesis Chamber. If you dont believe me, you can try it, but anyone with a legit IQ can see thats just a silly combo. Same with Kobolds, as a matter of fact, Kobold Clamp probably wouldn't be a bad combo deck at all considering it could go off turn 1 pretty damn consistantly. As for Land Tax, would you like to play against AS using it? That card would smooth out AS's mana base perfectly, and would probably make the deck THE best aggro deck in the format. Maybe we need that.

Well this isn't standard, it's legacy. And guess what, we already had affinity and skullclamp in Legacy. Sure it made the deck better but not broken.

I am not worried about kobold clamp in the least.

Also, I'd be happy to go against angel stompy playing land tax, it doesn't bother me at all.

Goblins would have a bettter late game with clamp. But clamp is down right dead against combo or any deck where you just need to win as fast as you can.

Evil Roopey

09-19-2006, 11:02 AM

quicksilver

09-19-2006, 11:08 AM

Is that because it pumps your creatures power or because it finds the answers you need to actually beat combo?

By answers you mean sacrificing your clock to draw into another clock that you can play. Or do you hope to draw into your game 1 maindecked hate. Or do you actually plan on leaving this in game 2 and siding out your creatures for the hate, so not only do you have very few creatures, but the ones you do draw get to be sacrificed, having no clock is the tech against combo I guess.

Oh, yeah it can pump your creatures, go go bad bonesplitter!

I have ran skull clamp extensivly in legacy, and I must say that it is terrible in a match where the early game is very important, it's only good against decks that go to the late game where you need to grind out card advantage.

SillyMetalGAT

09-19-2006, 11:08 AM

Well this isn't standard, it's legacy. And guess what, we already had affinity and skullclamp in Legacy. Sure it made the deck better but not broken.

I am not worried about kobold clamp in the least.

Also, I'd be happy to go against angel stompy playing land tax, it doesn't bother me at all.

Goblins would have a bettter late game with clamp. But clamp is down right dead against combo or any deck where you just need to win as fast as you can.

Can you actually give a reason why instead of just saying it wouldn't bother you? That doesn't really help explain why they're not a problem. On top of that, When Skullclamp WAS legal, It did distort the format. Why else would it be BANNED IN EVERY FORMAT save Vintage? Seriously, you know its a broken card. Dont even deny its power. The card can't be unbanned. If it does, then this format will lose to aggro. You will be able to pretty much overwhelm your opponent when you have drawn out most of your deck because of a fuckin 1 cc equipment. Bottom line the card is too powerful for its cost.

EDIT: and stop being a sarcastic asshole.... nobody likes one.

tivadar

09-19-2006, 11:10 AM

AS dropped Tithe for a good reason, and we've discussed Tax before and come to the conclusion that Tithe is actually better, as it guarentees you at least one land and doesn't help your opponent. Don't worry about Tax in AS, worry about it in other places where it can be abused (if this is even possible).

You're right, this isn't extended, but I still think skullclamp would do mean things to Legacy, and it wouldn't be a card to add that had nearly no impact on the format. The purpose of this thread is to discuss cards that won't affect the meta much (I think), not cards that will have a significant impact on the meta, but may not entirely break it. Bring back clamp and it'll see play in lots of decks and will bring many decks up a teir. Bring back Mind over Matter or Land Tax, and I don't think it will do hardly anything at all. Remove the dead weight first in my opinion.

SillyMetalGAT

09-19-2006, 11:14 AM

AS dropped Tithe for a good reason, and we've discussed Tax before and come to the conclusion that Tithe is actually better, as it guarentees you at least one land and doesn't help your opponent. Don't worry about Tax in AS, worry about it in other places where it can be abused (if this is even possible).

You're right, this isn't extended, but I still think skullclamp would do mean things to Legacy, and it wouldn't be a card to add that had nearly no impact on the format. The purpose of this forum is to discuss cards that won't affect the meta much (I think), not cards that may affect the meta, but may not entirely break it. Bring back clamp and it'll see play in lots of decks and will bring many decks up a teir. Bring back Mind over Matter or Land Tax, and I don't think it will do hardly anything at all. Remove the dead weight first in my opinion.

Why even bother with the B&R list? Do we really need these cards? The format is getting along fine without them. So is there really any point to conversing about what cards are dead weight? Nobody can do anything about it. All the time wasted thinking about the cards that you CANT play with could have been used to think about the cards you CAN play.....

SpatulaOfTheAges

09-19-2006, 11:36 AM

I dont know if you ever played Standard, but when you have Affinity with Skullclamp, the deck gets STUPID. Especially with Genesis Chamber.

That sounds god-awful clunky for any enviroment with a cardpool greater than 1.5k. Clamp doesn't really solve the problems that Affinity has; Deed, Null Rod, mass artifact removal, and a weak mana base.

If you dont believe me, you can try it, but anyone with a legit IQ can see thats just a silly combo. Same with Kobolds, as a matter of fact, Kobold Clamp probably wouldn't be a bad combo deck at all considering it could go off turn 1 pretty damn consistantly.

That's simply untrue. I have to ask if you've ever tested the deck? I have. Kobolds is never good. Ever.

As for Land Tax, would you like to play against AS using it? That card would smooth out AS's mana base perfectly, and would probably make the deck THE best aggro deck in the format. Maybe we need that.

Huh? How do you figure? Tithe all ready smooths out their mana base. Guess what? Cards that smooth our your mana base aren't busted. If they were, fetch-lands would be banned.

When Skullclamp WAS legal, It did distort the format.

When and where and in what deck?

Goblins can also get ridiculously crazy when it has a draw engine.

God, that'd be sick. Imagine if Goblins could tutor or draw like 2-4 more goblins off one spell. God, that's so sick.

I mean, Jesus.

Is that because it pumps your creatures power or because it finds the answers you need to actually beat combo?

I think Dave all ready addressed this. In what scenario does this hold true?

A)2 mana for an additional point of damage a turn isn't very impressive next to Piledriver.
B)What answers are those? Are we talking post-board? So you'll be running Vial, Clamp, answers and lands? That's weaksauce for an argument. Sacraficing tempo to increase your chance of drawing answers in Goblins is br0k3?

Anarky87

09-19-2006, 11:41 AM

Why even bother with the B&R list? Do we really need these cards? The format is getting along fine without them. So is there really any point to conversing about what cards are dead weight? Nobody can do anything about it. All the time wasted thinking about the cards that you CANT play with could have been used to think about the cards you CAN play.....

Well then go to another topic and talk about the cards that you actually can play, and stop berating everyone in this thread and detracting from the focus. That's not a hard concept. If talking about this given subject gets your panties in a twist (Which it apparently does), then stop subjecting yourself to it. If people want to 'waste' their time testing out banned cards, then let them 'waste' their time testing banned cards. It is THEIR time, fyi. I think they can do with it what they damn well please, and would much rather you not pollute their thread with unrelated, unhelpful bunk.

Artowis

09-19-2006, 01:04 PM

Well this isn't standard, it's legacy. And guess what, we already had affinity and skullclamp in Legacy. Sure it made the deck better but not broken.

I am not worried about kobold clamp in the least.

Also, I'd be happy to go against angel stompy playing land tax, it doesn't bother me at all.

Goblins would have a bettter late game with clamp. But clamp is down right dead against combo or any deck where you just need to win as fast as you can.

You do realize Skullclamp in 1.5 had to compete with Dragon and Goblins with fucking Recruiter.

Seriously, if we can't do Extended comparisions, why the fuck is anyone entertaining 1.5 comparisions when there were three decks that were far more broken than anything else in the format*?

*For those who didn't play / forgetful
Dragon, FCG and MUD

Tao

09-19-2006, 01:28 PM

That sounds god-awful clunky for any enviroment with a cardpool greater than 1.5k. Clamp doesn't really solve the problems that Affinity has; Deed, Null Rod, mass artifact removal, and a weak mana base.

There is no way that Skullclamp will be unbanned.

Skullclamp enables every creature deck to outdraw every Control deck. Elves will beat Thresh, Landstill or Rock because of card advantage.

Affinity will go absolutely crazy with Clamp, Disciple and Ravager. SillyMG described it pretty good with "STUPID". Equip this, draw 2, play Worker, equip, draw 2, lose life in Disciple, counter for ravager, Frogmit for free, equip, Draw 2, counter for Ravager, lose life. Thoughtcast, Disciple.

quicksilver

09-19-2006, 01:39 PM

We also have a highly played answer to skull clamp that we did not have before, pithing needle.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-19-2006, 01:50 PM

Charbelcher doesn't cost 2 and this deck has a backup plan-- dancing ghoul etc. This deck also has hand disruption. Like, you can't really tell me there's a direct parallel between the two. Charbelcher is obviously way worse-- that's a card that's potentially broken by the acceleration present in the environment, which is why Tinker/Grim Monolith/Ancient Tomb were banned in old ext and not belcher itself.

Charbelcher is way worse because no one plays Mogg Fanatic/STP/Wasteland/LeylineOftheVoid/BrainFreeze, or Charbelcher is way worse because it's the one we have proof of sucking and we want to hang onto our memories of Extended glory and insist the Hermit Druid is still the best creature evah?

Look, can people get over this notion that combo isn't allowed to be played? I know people have an irrational hatred, but we're talking about an average turn 3-4 kill here undisrupted. Without storm or resilence of any kind. And a fucking plentitude of cards in the format answer it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this as a combo deck; combo is allowed to win fast when no one does anything to it, because then decks that do something to it have a favorable matchup. Encouraging a little bit of actual control in the format is not a bad thing.

SillyMetalGAT

09-19-2006, 02:09 PM

We also have a highly played answer to skull clamp that we did not have before, pithing needle.

Yeah cuz that really put a dent in Jittes usage, and it really did something to Survival decks and to AEther Vial....... Dude Pithing Needle is out there, but people still play cards that are perfect Needle targets AND STILL WIN WITH THE DECKS!!!! ZOMG!!!11!! NO WAY!! Its like........ people don't fear Needle? No fuckin way! Skullclamp WILL NOT be unbanned. Its too good. Doesn't matter what you think. It won't happen. GG David Price.

overlord95

09-19-2006, 02:18 PM

quicksilver

09-19-2006, 02:24 PM

Yeah cuz that really put a dent in Jittes usage, and it really did something to Survival decks and to AEther Vial....... Dude Pithing Needle is out there, but people still play cards that are perfect Needle targets AND STILL WIN WITH THE DECKS!!!! ZOMG!!!11!! NO WAY!! Its like........ people don't fear Needle? No fuckin way! Skullclamp WILL NOT be unbanned. Its too good. Doesn't matter what you think. It won't happen. GG David Price.

I like how you have absolutly zero evidence to back up what you say. Survival decks did decrese in popularity with the printing of needle. There had for a very long time been a survival deck in the LMF until pithing needle got printed. And you know this thread is not for just saying that a card is broken with no evidence what so ever to back it up. This thread is for just the opposite, to prove that cards are broken. So unless you build me a deck with skullclamps in it that breaks the format in half, I don't give a shit what you say. Go flame elsewhere.

Alfred

09-19-2006, 02:34 PM

I can invision a Hermit Druid deck that uses the new Dralnu card that is basically "Creature - Yawmoth's Will", and just running the equivilant of an Iggy Pop deck with 4 Hermit Druids, 1 Shallow Grave and a Krosan Reclaimation.

That combo is also immune to STP on your non Hermit win condition, and you have a combo deck around it that is already pretty good. Doesn't that seem a little abusive to people?

Artowis

09-19-2006, 02:49 PM

We also have a highly played answer to skull clamp that we did not have before, pithing needle.

'Wasteland is a solution to Academy'

Survival decks did decrese in popularity with the printing of needle.

I thought it decreased in popularity because all of the Survival decks sucked and couldn't beat combo even if it mulled to 5 every game.

SpatulaOfTheAges

09-19-2006, 03:13 PM

You do realize Skullclamp in 1.5 had to compete with Dragon and Goblins with fucking Recruiter.

Um. Recruiter made Skullclamp kind of playable in Goblins. If anything, that makes Skullclamp weaker. Competing with Dragon for a Skullclamp-based aggro deck is little different than competing with Solidarity or Iggy Pop. The tempo loss will very rarely be worth the card advantage against any moderately fast combo deck.

Seriously, if we can't do Extended comparisions, why the fuck is anyone entertaining 1.5 comparisions when there were three decks that were far more broken than anything else in the format*?

*For those who didn't play / forgetful
Dragon, FCG and MUD

At any given tournement those decks comprised a fairly small percentage of the field, given the price of Bazaars and Workshops, and the fact that FCG was terrible in the meta-game, (though also the most likely to abuse Skullclamp).

'Wasteland is a solution to Academy'

Because Wasteland prevents the activation of Academy and the dumping of shitloads of mana into your mana pool that will in turn allow you to replace your lost Academy?

I thought it decreased in popularity because all of the Survival decks sucked and couldn't beat combo even if it mulled to 5 every game.

One-liners, though generously stuffed with hyperbole and snark, do not an argument make.

There is no way that Skullclamp will be unbanned.

Probably not. That doesn't make blind reactionism logical or correct, however.

Skullclamp enables every creature deck to outdraw every Control deck. Elves will beat Thresh, Landstill or Rock because of card advantage.

What testing is this based on? What reasoning is this based on?

Affinity will go absolutely crazy with Clamp, Disciple and Ravager. SillyMG described it pretty good with "STUPID". Equip this, draw 2, play Worker, equip, draw 2, lose life in Disciple, counter for ravager, Frogmit for free, equip, Draw 2, counter for Ravager, lose life. Thoughtcast, Disciple.

Affinity is all ready capable of random god-hands. That's not the problem with the deck. Skullclamp doesn't really fix the problems with the deck. Skullclamp lets you smash control decks that don't have an answer to Clamp. So what? Most control decks have answers. Most aggro and combo decks will smash you in the tempo window you gave them.

Yeah cuz that really put a dent in Jittes usage, and it really did something to Survival decks and to AEther Vial....... Dude Pithing Needle is out there, but people still play cards that are perfect Needle targets AND STILL WIN WITH THE DECKS!!!! ZOMG!!!11!! NO WAY!! Its like........ people don't fear Needle? No fuckin way! Skullclamp WILL NOT be unbanned. Its too good. Doesn't matter what you think. It won't happen. GG David Price.

Wow. Acting like a 5 year old ftw? Grow the hell up.

I can invision a Hermit Druid deck that uses the new Dralnu card that is basically "Creature - Yawmoth's Will", and just running the equivilant of an Iggy Pop deck with 4 Hermit Druids, 1 Shallow Grave and a Krosan Reclaimation.

I can envision a Dralnu deck that abuses Through the Breach and mana acceleration. Fat lot of relevancy that's got to the conversation. The deck you're talking about has all the same weaknesses of the other Hermit Druid list discussed; the weakness was never in the kill condition, it was in relying on a 4x 1/1 for 2 mana without haste that makes you run bad cards and a terrible mana base.

That combo is also immune to STP on your non Hermit win condition, and you have a combo deck around it that is already pretty good. Doesn't that seem a little abusive to people?

Not really. The control deck shouldn't wait to StP your Ghoul anyway, they should just StP the Druid. If they don't, they're being stupid.

Alfred

09-19-2006, 03:42 PM

I can envision a Dralnu deck that abuses Through the Breach and mana acceleration. Fat lot of relevancy that's got to the conversation. The deck you're talking about has all the same weaknesses of the other Hermit Druid list discussed; the weakness was never in the kill condition, it was in relying on a 4x 1/1 for 2 mana without haste that makes you run bad cards and a terrible mana base.

The Through the Breach argument is obviously falicious. If I came up with an engine that could run on Hydrogen extremely efficiently, with your logic someone could counter that with "LOL I CAN BUILD A CAR THAT RUNS ON MANURE AND HAS LIEK A HUGE STEAMSHIP WHELL THAT TEARS THE PAVEMENT APART. NICE TRY NUBLET."

Basically, take out Leyline of the Void and add like 3 more cards in addition to Hermit, and you basically have a deck that even if it fizzles, you can go off if you can resolve a 2 mana creature. Also, the win condition I came up with is like 50000000 times better than the stupid Sutured Ghoul combo because it runs 3 somwhat dead cards instead of 15, and isn't totally built around it.

Not really. The control deck shouldn't wait to StP your Ghoul anyway, they should just StP the Druid. If they don't, they're being stupid.

Then why the hell were people mentioning that Sutured Ghoul can be STP'd? Obviously that shouldn't matter if anyone in their right mind would kill the Hermit before it activates.

Warmonger

09-19-2006, 03:46 PM

The tempo loss will very rarely be worth the card advantage against any moderately fast combo deck.
The possible card advantage will &%& any aggro or control deck. As nearly every build cna run skullclamps, it will end up like ban in the olfd extended, where beyond Goblins it played in Affinity, RDW, WW, Elves, Opposition, ANY creature-based deck except of Rock, which had been already Deed-based. The player who draws it first wins.
It's similar to abuse of Jitte in Standard just some months ago.

Artowis

09-19-2006, 03:57 PM

Because Wasteland prevents the activation of Academy and the dumping of shitloads of mana into your mana pool that will in turn allow you to replace your lost Academy?

Seriously, stop with the bullshit, you know what I meant. If you didn't you wouldn't of just straw-manned my argument. I'll lay it out in simple terms though. Just because there's an answer to something, doesn't mean it isn't still broken. Regardless if Skullclamp is or isn't broken, that's my basic point.

Clear enough for you Spat? Or do you want to snark me again while bitching about me snarking?

Tao

09-19-2006, 04:09 PM

What testing is this based on? What reasoning is this based on?

Affinity is all ready capable of random god-hands. That's not the problem with the deck. Skullclamp doesn't really fix the problems with the deck. Skullclamp lets you smash control decks that don't have an answer to Clamp. So what? Most control decks have answers. Most aggro and combo decks will smash you in the tempo window you gave them.

I did no testing with Skullclamp against current Legacy decks. The reasoning behind my claim that any Aggro deck will outdraw every control deck with an active Skullclamp is pretty easy: Skullclamp does what it does what is does what is written on the card. Feel free to test it, for me it is obvious enough from thinking about it for one minute.

The tempo argument is really weak. An active Skullclamp will decide any Aggro mirror in a few turns. Just go and attack into a clamped Frogmit if you don't believe me.

Atwa

09-19-2006, 04:27 PM

Ridiculous Hat

09-19-2006, 04:37 PM

Are you kidding me? Have you tested it against any of the tier legacy decks? The mana base is effing awful. What kind of base is terrible, exactly, if not one composed soley of non-basics? In my testing it went 50-50 with Goblins, and couldn't build Landstill. Since then Goblins gained Port, Landstill got Needle and a faster clock, and Iggy Pop was developed. I have not tested against legacy decks. This doesn't make the card bad, though it may not be the destabilizing influence that it once was. And like, the mana base isn't spectacular by any means, but you can always cast your spells. Isn't that good enough?

A) The deck requires the succesful casting of a 4 of,
B) Said 4 of is a 1/1 for 2 mana,
C) Said 4 of does not have haste,
D) Said 4 of does not win the game the turn he taps, if he taps.
E) If all these pieces align, they have to do so before turn 3 reliably to compete with Iggy Pop, which is more reselient, and runs a 4x that beats your deck and does not respond well to Therapy.

I mean, the list posted is obviously not tweaked for legacy. I'm not saying that it's a perfect deck and it should be ported immediately. I am aware of the drawbacks of Hermit Druid, but if he taps he usually wins the game that turn-- you just need an Exhume or a Reanimate. Like, Hermit Druid + Reanimation spell + 3 mana = gg. Yes, it can be disrupted, yes, there is disruption present. Does this make the card itself bad?

Needle and Leyline weren't around when the card was played and I will concede that it is not as good as it used to be-- but it still enables degenerate wins. I'm not sure at what point that the answers discourage the threats from being good.

Every combo deck has auto wins game 1 in Legacy. They're called board control decks. Want to know the exception? Combo decks that need to untap with creatures.

Are board control decks played right now? Like, there's "truffle shuffle" and... is that it?

Thresh
4xStP
4xFoW
2xCSpell
3xDaze
0-4xPithing Needle
0-4xMeddling Mage

Goblins(Turn 4 average kill)
4xIncinerator
4xFanatic
4xWasteland
4xPort
0-3xSGC
0-1xSharpshooter
0-3xStP/Pyrokinesis/Disenchant against Moxen

Solidarity(Turn 4 average kill)
4xFoW
4xRemand
3xCunning Wish
4xTurnabout

Iggy Pop([b]Turn 3 average kill)
4xLeyline of the Void
1xEchoing Truth

Should I bother going into the Sui/Confidant decks?Yup, there are answers. This deck does have disruption-- and I'm not convinced of Turnabout. The Buried Alive plan is usually what you go for against Goblins, and that usually hits t3 or so. SGC is not an answer to Hermit Druid, btw. And yes, it's a combo deck, it's going to have a bad thresh matchup. This is true of pretty much every combo deck ever, right?

This isn't Yawg's Will. Yawg'sWill is vulnerable to only counters and GY hate. It wins when it hits. And the win is not a creature. It's not even Lackey. Lackey is 1 mana. That makes all the difference. Even if he doesn't make it through, he still only cost one card to put pressure on turn 1. Druid either waits for turn 3 to do anything or requires card disadvantage to accelerate. Card disadvantage in a deck that frequently needs to mulligan anyway due to either dead cards or not drawing it's 4 of. These problems are actually not alleviated by playing him in Friggorid or LftL decks as has been suggested. It requires distorting of decent decklists with bad cards. To support Druid you need Reclamation, reanimation spells, Surtured Ghoul, possibly Cloudscraper.Card disadvantage? It's a goddamn Mox and you pitch a land. Yes, it is technically card disadvantage, but that argument is completely irrelevant. Come on, dude-- have you played the list? It doesn't mulligan that often and it's certainly capable of winning turn 2-- turn 3 was pretty consistent when I played it back in the day. Reanimation spells aren't bad, so you have to play, what, 6 "bad" cards? Drawing Reclamation naturally isn't that bad, and you play multiples of the spells you need to reanimate because drawing one doesn't matter that much. You either need Buried Alive + Corpse Dance or Hermit Druid + Exhume/Reanimate/Corpse Dance. (You can reorder the cards off of Hermit Druid.) I'm not saying the card is insane and it's certainly not a parallel to Yawgwill, but it is comparable to Lackey. Whether or not Lackey belongs in Legacy is another discussion, but I don't really think Hermit needs to become unbanned.

Charbelcher is way worse because no one plays Mogg Fanatic/STP/Wasteland/LeylineOftheVoid/BrainFreeze, or Charbelcher is way worse because it's the one we have proof of sucking and we want to hang onto our memories of Extended glory and insist the Hermit Druid is still the best creature evah?

Look, can people get over this notion that combo isn't allowed to be played? I know people have an irrational hatred, but we're talking about an average turn 3-4 kill here undisrupted. Without storm or resilence of any kind. And a fucking plentitude of cards in the format answer it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this as a combo deck; combo is allowed to win fast when no one does anything to it, because then decks that do something to it have a favorable matchup. Encouraging a little bit of actual control in the format is not a bad thing.Charbelcher is way worse because it involves significantly more deck warping than Hermit. Playing different lands and taking a few more points of damage a game is different than having over half your deck being mana accel, not having room for any disruption, and playing TWO lands. Obviously things are different in this format than extended, but the creature is still powerful.

And yes, combo is allowed to be played-- there are combo decks in the format. I'm not even sure that Druid would warp the format that much, to be honest, but do we need to tempt fate? The card is good, there are answers to it, etc etc. If you think Lackey should be in the format, by all means bring it back. I'm not sold on either card.

Alfred

09-19-2006, 04:48 PM

Also, don't forget you can run Iggy Pop with a few cards added to it, and win either by normally comboing or with Hermit Druid. That Dralnu guy is obviously the best win condition in a legacy Hermit deck.

Complete_Jank

09-19-2006, 06:53 PM

The only cards that should even be bothered looking at are as follows, and the only ones that should reasonably be thought about are in bold.

Balance
Dream Halls
Earthcraft
Land Tax
Memory Jar
Mind Over Matter
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Replenish
Skullclamp
Time Spiral
Windfall

Remember, unbanning these cards by themselves is not completly bad, however some of these cards if unbanned together could cause problems and think about that.

P.S. Did not read entire thread, as some of the conversation was rideculous.

Tao

09-19-2006, 07:05 PM

The only cards that should even be bothered looking at are as follows, and the only ones that should reasonably be thought about are in bold.

Balance
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Time Spiral

Mind Twist and especially Balance are way too powerful for any format.

Memory Jar: I don't like colorless, 1-sided draw-7's.

Time Spiral: I don't like Spring Tide to draw 7 AND untapp all their lands.

Complete_Jank

09-19-2006, 07:30 PM

Mind Twist and especially Balance are way too powerful for any format.

Memory Jar: I don't like colorless, 1-sided draw-7's.

Time Spiral: I don't like Spring Tide to draw 7 AND untapp all their lands.

1) Mindtwist and Balance are both not bolded, and both are not top of my list to try and get them back from being banned. I actually agree that they should stay banned. I am however not being biased against what I think, but more biased against the obvious. Balance does not win games, but it can swing a game to one side or the other specially if the deck is designed to abuse it. Same goes for Mindtwist.

2) Memory Jar's cost and the fact it isn't a complete one side draw makes it possible to bring back. It isn't broken without Tinker or Tolarian Academy. It is no better than Diminishing Returns, specially if you add in the fact that it can be stifled.

3) Time Spiral if added to Spring Tide would actually be worse for them and slow their deck down a turn on average.

Warmonger

09-20-2006, 01:49 AM

Time Spiral is 6 mana, Jar is for 5 colorless. Works with Welder AND Second Sunsrise. It's the last draw-7 card I would try to test.

Tao

09-20-2006, 03:20 AM

3) Time Spiral if added to Spring Tide would actually be worse for them and slow their deck down a turn on average.

Maybe it would slow down the goldfish (even though I can't imagine it) but it makes the Combo unfair. If you get disrupted by heavy discard with a slow clock (for example Deadguy or Truffle Shuffle) you can go off with 2 cards (High Tide plus Time Spiral) or only 1 card (Time Spiral with 6 Islands in play).

2) Memory Jar's cost and the fact it isn't a complete one side draw makes it possible to bring back. It isn't broken without Tinker or Tolarian Academy.

This is totally wrong so I am not going to discuss this.

Ridiculous Hat

09-20-2006, 04:40 AM

This is totally wrong so I am not going to discuss this.Agreed. We'll get a chance to see if the effect is still broken on Magus of the Jar, even though the card is about a million times worse.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-20-2006, 04:48 AM

Mind Twist... way too powerful for any format.

I'll try to put this succinctly.

WHY?

PunkRocker1134

09-20-2006, 06:06 AM

Jesus guys, can we stop all the flaming and fighting?

Please all stop with posting arguments with only some personal opinions and theoratical knowledge. Also stop comparing Legacy with Standard, Extended, Old Extended and Old Type 1.5.

Post some solid ideas with decklists and/or ideas how to break a card. I don't need to know if you think Hermit Druid will be broken in our format! Build a deck, test it against the current tire 1 and 2, and share what you've found out.

You think Hermid Druid will be too strong for Legacy? Build a deck around him and prove it, until you do: please shut up!

This tread has lots of potential and when people are willing to have some good discussions, we might prove some point with data, instead of having a flametread where everyone has an opinion, but noone can/wants to prove whatever he/she claims.

Whenever someone makes a statement which you don't agree with, please show us some results or keep your fingers away from your keyboard when reading in this tread
[/frustration]

Just one question:

Maybe I'm just stupid or compleatly blind, but when reading the tread, some people were talking about testing Vampiric Tutor. When I am not completly convinced Vampiric Tutor is broken enough to be listed on the banned list, wouldn't it be safer to start testing with Imperial Seal. Although I probably won't be taken of the list (mostly because of price issues), it will sooner get unbanned that Vampiric will.

Thats everything Ive been trying to say but a little differently. Thank you Atwa.

@ Vampiric Tutor: I thought of this at first becasue I overlooked Imperial Tutor first, which would probably be a good idea to test that first. Also because I remember when Legacy was first made Wizards had some cards banned because of price. I would test to see if Seal is broken first but it probably wont come off because of price issues.

Now please lets see some freakin decklists and comments on the decklists. Testing would be nice to see to, and I think we need to tackle one or two cards at a time. That is, unless we get less people flaming and more people actually contributing. Then we could tacke more cards. At first I woudl get the two most obivous out of the way, Mom and Land Tax. If we want to work three cards I would add hermit druid, mainly because everyone is throwing shit fits over him, and it would be good to prove it one way or another. So now, any ideas that are something other then flaming and fighting.

FakeSpam

09-20-2006, 02:18 PM

I, for one, am greatly enjoying the flaming.

Most of this thread is filled with worthless conjecture. I would call people idiots, but, I don't want to offend. Your opinions, however worthless, have been noted.

First off, let's just stick with the cards that anyone in their right mind know to be safe: Land Tax, Mind over Matter. Everyone in agreement that these cards bite ass? Good.

Now, here is where I insult people in a very general sense.

Mind Twist: This card is splashable and devistating. First off, it's random discard. We don't see too much random discard anymore. Second, it's scalable. This card is too powerful and, more importantly, too flexable to be allowed into the format. Remember, unbanned cards become playable in fours.
The closest card that we have that generates a comparable effect is Mind Sludge. Mind sludge requires BB, requires a healthy number of swamps, and ALWAYS costs five mana. Mind Twist does not have any of those problems. Also, they reprinted Mind Twist in Ice Age as Mind Warp. It costs 4-freaking-mana PLUS x. So, Mind Twist is a little undercosted and a little too good. Sorry, IBA.

Dream Halls: Whoever suggested this come off the list is a complete failure in reading and comprehension. This card is insanely powerful. It's on the same level as Yawgmoth's Bargan. You know, because it makes every spell in your deck free.

Balance: Let's just let people play with a two mana armageddon, wrath of god, and mind twist. A splashable two mana armageddon, wrath of god, mind twist. Sounds good.

Windfall, Memory Jar, Time Spiral: Just say no to draw 7s.

Hermit Druid: He's green. He sucks. And his art sucks. And his set sucks. Fuck him. He was decent in extended because the format didn't have inexpensive answers to busted shit. We do here. I don't care if he comes off the list, he won't show up in any real decks anyway.

Skullclamp: I consider this a possibility for unbanning.

Replenish: I don't see the problem with this card either. I see this as potentially unbannable.

...and I would like to thank quicksilver and the elgins for making great comedy. I loled. Honest.

TheDarkshineKnight

09-20-2006, 02:24 PM

In summation, I do believe I have won. :P

FakeSpam

09-20-2006, 03:04 PM

Metalworker: eeeh... I'm iffy. Iffy and leaning to "no." I don't think he's the end of the world, exactly. I.. shit. I dunno. Man, turn two mindslavers sure would be fun.

Grim Monolith: This is another iffy one. I don't think it's too bad. I don't think it's too good either. Solid? Sure. Broken? Eeeeh.

Earthcraft: I don't see a problem. Then again, it's green.

Entomb: What exactly would we be entombing?

TeenieBopper

09-20-2006, 03:36 PM

So, I thought any thread discussing unbannings and what could/should come off was auto locked because it dragged the retards out of the woodwork? What happened to that?

Nightmare

09-20-2006, 03:47 PM

So, I thought any thread discussing unbannings and what could/should come off was auto locked because it dragged the retards out of the woodwork? What happened to that?Irony.

quicksilver

09-20-2006, 04:09 PM

So, I thought any thread discussing unbannings and what could/should come off was auto locked because it dragged the retards out of the woodwork? What happened to that?

Lol, and the funny thing was just now when I saw Mr. Nightmare had posted I had assumed it was locked, but it wasn't to my surprise.
Also this thread wasn't meant to be an argument of what should come off, it was meant to give concrete data to support wheather or not a card should be on. For instance if someone could build a deck that ran skull clamp that trumped virtually every deck in the format, then we would know that skull clamp should almost certainly stay on, however if people tried to build decks with skull clamp and at best they could just be a contender in the format, without making the top teir decks obsolete, well then it would probably be safe to take it off the list, at least for a trial period, you could always put cards back on without hurting anything since there are not going to be any tournies that matter.

Warmonger

09-21-2006, 08:57 AM

^You're right, but there are some cards that don't need to be tested because their power is obvious.
I tried to create some possible decklist, but soon after people started to flame and it all... ehh.

So - if you say that card should be banned, prove it.

If you think that something could or should be banned, show us possible decklist.

SillyMetalGAT

09-21-2006, 09:05 AM

FakeSpam

09-21-2006, 11:22 AM

Earthcraft + Squirrels Nest = Rediculous combo.... at least I think thats why they banned it. Then again im not completely sure.

Even then, not really a problem.

Silverdragon

09-21-2006, 02:20 PM

Concerning Metalworker and Grim Monolith I build a deck with both of them using a basic Stax core (with Smokestacks, Trinispheres etc) and Staff of Domination for the Combokill. My results were shocking. Shocking in that I still got my ass handed by stupid Goblins. In fact if I didn't get the goddraw they demolished me even with a moderate hand (one without Lackey or Vial). Granted I'm not the best player but out of 20 games I won exactly 1. I wont even start on the Thresh matchup.
Ok now let's assume you are a really good player and have an optimized list. That raises the matchup to perhaps 60:40. Then think about the fact that the DCI would obviously only unban 1 of the 2 cards at a time so...
And before you ask these were the main problems I had: even with Powder Keg and Trsikelion the removal was not sufficient to stop all the little red men and all Goblins needed was to topdeck another Piledriver and I was down faster than I could look. Disenchant can ruin your day, So can Wasteland and don't forget that they can simply cycle Incinerator when they have 2 Gobs out to kill your Metalworker. And for those that say you have protection in Trini and Chalice: Remember Incinerator is immune to them and too often you end up with much protection but not much more in form of actual pressure. You are dependent on getting the optimal mix of mana, disruption and pressure as fast as possible and that is really hard without Workshop. Also there are very few ways to get back into the game once you've fallen behind. Powder Keg is just that bad at stopping Goblins :(
Oh and as a final note I started playing Stax when the new banned list came out and Top8'ed with it at several tournaments in Germany so I know a bit about the archetype and the mulligan decisions which are crucial to these decks.
So my conclusion would be take off either Metalworker or Grim Monolith so people can attempt to break them. If it does happen you can put them back on the banned list whenever you want (there's always the possibility of emergency banning) but I think they won't drastically alter the format but be nice additions to existing decks.

quicksilver

09-21-2006, 02:58 PM

Bongo

09-22-2006, 07:09 AM

Here's the list I used to test Earthcraft:

Combo:
4 Squirrel Nest
4 Earthcraft

Acceleration:
4 Birds
4 ESG

Disruption:
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will

Search:
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict

Mana:
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
5 Island
5 Forest

This is a rough draft and by no means perfect. I used the Gro cantrip package to dig through the deck. Mana Leak over Counterspell because UU is not always available.
White for Enlightened Tutor was also considered, but that version was even weaker against disruption.
I only played a few games against Threshold, Deadguy, Goblins and Solidarity, but the results were pretty clear: this is a tier2 deck at best.
If anyone comes up with a better version to break Earthcraft, feel free to post your version.

Warmonger

09-22-2006, 08:35 AM

I suggest something like this, based on Pitch Enchantress by my friend Danarim:

Mainboard:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Savannah
1 Tropical island
1 Plains
1 Island
6 Forest
2 Serra's Sanctum

4 Exploration
4 Wild Growth
3 Utopia Sprawl
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
1 Mirri's Guile
3 Earthcraft
1 Squirell Nest
1 Words of Wind
1 Stroke of Genius
4 Seal of Removal
2 Ground Seal
3 Elephant Grass

4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Palichron

SB:
3 Dovescape
3 Mystic Remora
4 In The Eye of Chaos
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Solitary Confinement

In this build, Earthcraft is used as additional acceleration - tapping our creatures (which are always untapped) speeds the deck up, especially with enchanted forests. Enchantment fits well in curve and whole engine, combo with Squirell Nest is only and addition. We have Stroke as the primary win condition. Sideboard targets combo decks and common threats.

PunkRocker1134

09-23-2006, 12:22 PM

For Earthcraft my thoughts would be U/B/G verison. It would have cheap disruption, Cabal Therapy, Duress or hell even Force of Will. Tutors, Lim-dul's vault probably, and it would have cheap draw. This is my rough, VERY ROUGH, list:

Earthcraft:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [ST] Swamp (4)
1 [8E] Island (1)
1 [MM] Forest (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [U] Bayou

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [P2] Sleight of Hand
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [US] Duress
4 [OD] Squirrel Nest
4 [TE] Earthcraft

so I decided to goldfish this a little heres my results: (Out of 20 for this specific decklist)

Turn 1 Kills: 0
Turn 2 Kills: 0
Turn 3 Kills: 1(it involved 1st turn chrome mox, Lotus Petal into a Squirell nest then a 2nd turn earth craft)
Turn 4 Kills:1
Turn 5 Kills:5
Turn 6-blah:3

Turn 2 Kills with disruption: 0
Turn 3 Kills with disruption: 0
Turn 4 Kills with disruption: 1
Turn 5 Kills With Disruption:3
Turn 5 Kills with disruption:4
Turn 6- blah with disruption: 2

Seperate Stats that are interesting:
Disruption Flood: 1
Mana Screw: 2 (actually one turned into a turn 3 with disruption kill)
Mulligans: 3

Ok ,so it sucked. Probably a decklist problem, So i decided to goldfish the Enchantress verison, since the Groish verison or whatever you want to call it supposedly sucked. So here was the results for 15 times:

Turn 1 Kills: 0
Turn 2 Kills: 0
Turn 3 Kills:
Turn 4 Kills:2
Turn 5 Kills: 3
Turn 6-blah:5

Interesting Stats:
Mulligan: 4
Fizzle (which means tried to go off and ran out gas and couldn't win until turn 5 or 6-blah): 2
Mana Screw: 3
hands that would stalled/beat aggro alot: 8

Ok so its not 15 but after havign results like those I just gave up. I know its not a perfect list but just from that Earthcraft isn't looking so high in my books. All I know is the deck would thrash aggro, but doesn't Soltaire do that anyway?

We are actually gettign some solid advice, well not solid but its getting better now. So lets keep those lists, comments and advice comming. I still would like to see lists, or ideas about decks abusing (attemptign to abuse)Replenish, Skullclamp, Land Tax, Mind Over matter, Metalworker, Grim Monolith, Dream Halls, Hermit Druid and the others that have been mentioned.

edit: i think the number one problem with The Earthcraft combo is you need to wait a turn to win. The stats looked good until I relized i need to attack to win and I had to knock back all the numbers.

Bongo

09-24-2006, 02:20 PM

The list that tried to abuse Hermit Druid:

Mana:
4 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Tropical Island
4 Mox Diamond

Druid combo:
4 Hermit Druid
3 Krosan Cloudscraper
2 Sutured Ghoul

Disruption:
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

Manipulation:
4 Brainstorm
2 Mystical Tutor
2 Buried Alive

Reanimation:
1 Corpse Dance
1 Shallow Grave
2 Reanimate
3 Exhume

Utility:
1 Dragon Breath
1 Krosan Reclamation

Brainstorm + Fetch gave the deck some badly needed hand optimization. Still, this wasn't good enough to hold its own against Goblins, Threshold and Deadguy (like mentioned in my previous comments).
Even worse is that the often-played Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle severly slow it down.
I'd be really surprised if Hermit Druid is used in a halfway-playable deck.

------------------

The Enchantress Earthcraft list was decent, but wasn't Enchantress good anyway? I don't see how Earthcraft improves the worse matchups of Solitaire. So far, I'm inclined to say that Earthcraft is pretty safe. That basic land clause is probably enough of a disadvantage to make it unharmful.
Maybe a Solitaire player could help here.

Atwa

09-24-2006, 04:49 PM

I play Enchantress a lot as a petdeck, and trying to fit in the Earthcraft combo in it will only weaken the deck.

I think you need to test Earthcraft in a specially build deck, adding it into an excisting deck won't really work.

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I am currently testing Land Tax. I've build a W/G deck which tries to abuse the landsearch by discarding the lands to a Solitary Confinement, while beating with a large Terravore. The deck is being tuned every time after I played with it, trying to get an optimal decklist, but lack of time really suckes when heavy test sessions are recuired.

I'll post my current decklist for refference some time tomorrow, now I am getting some well needed sleep.

Complete_Jank

09-25-2006, 03:51 AM

Sweet some actual evidence instead of just conjecture, rock on!

I disagree with Metal worker coming off the Banned list.

I had stated this before. I miss playing him, but he is too powerful.

I ran a combo deck that used him, and even ran it with out Mishra Workshop's twice when they were legal because a friend wanted to borrow them for a blue/red control slaver deck.

The deck I ran had Metal Worker, Voltaic Construct, Staff of Domination, Planar Portal, Myr Incubator, Goblin Canon, Karn, and Goblin Welder. Metal Worker is the only one on the banned list, and the deck is now unplayable.

Metal Worker and Voltaic Construct are creatures, and Duress didn't remove them, thus if a first turn duress revealed more than one of the win conditions (Staff of Domination, Planar Portal, Myr Incubator, or Goblin Canon) you usually won turn two.

The deck had multiple win conditions, and Mindslavers only came in after sideboard, against control. The deck ran less than 15 land without the Mishra's Workshops, and less than 12 with.

Even with out the Mishra's Workshop, Turn two Kill was possible even after Muliganing. I had muliganned to 5 more than once while on the draw and not on the draw. I drew an additional artifact to make metal worker tap for enough and go off turn two.

The deck proved itself by winning a 35-50 person weekly tourney 7 weeks in a row, and other times as well, and never lost more than one match a night, meaning it never finished below Top 8!

Metal Worker because of my testing should remain on the Banned list. Metal worker is best abused in a combo deck, not a stax's deck.

Lukas Preuss

09-25-2006, 04:40 AM

Metal Worker because of my testing should remain on the Banned list. Metal worker is best abused in a combo deck, not a stax's deck.

Would you mind giving us a list of your combo deck?

PunkRocker1134

09-25-2006, 06:04 AM

and more exact percentages?

Bongo

09-25-2006, 09:15 AM

I play Enchantress a lot as a petdeck, and trying to fit in the Earthcraft combo in it will only weaken the deck.

I think you need to test Earthcraft in a specially build deck, adding it into an excisting deck won't really work.

For a specific Earthcraft deck, see my list above. Because of the basic land requirement of Earthcraft, two colors is the most you can run. Blue is the natural second color because of the library manipulation and the counter protection it provides.
I also ran a version with less cantrips and more counters + Impulse, but the results didn't change - a pure Earthcraft deck is not dangerous, it lost too much against the current top decks.

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I'm also testing Land Tax. And to be honest, the Land Tax deck I'm testing right now feels a lot stronger than both Earthcraft and Hermit Druid decks.

Tax Confinement Control

4x Land Tax
2x Scroll Rack
2x Zuran Orb
2x Enlightened Tutor

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Humility
2x Solitary Confinement

4x Isochron Scepter
4x Orim’s Chant
2x Abeyance

2x Planar Birth
2x Argivian Find
2x Abolish

2x Goblin Charbelcher

16x Plains
4x Mox Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard:
2x Abeyance - Solidarity
4x Rule of Law - Solidarity
4x Tormod's Crypt - Threshold
2x Disenchant - utility
3x Spiritual Focus - Deadguy

Confinement isn't there for a lock, temporary protection while Belcher finishes the job is fine. Scepter is really nice with Chant, Abeyance, Swords and Argivian Find. Planar Birth brings back the discarded Plains from Mox Diamond and Abolish to give me the needed mana for Charbelcher. It's also useful to gain a shitton of life with Zuran Orb.

This list is enormously strong against anything based on creatures. Turn 1 ScepterChant can turn even unfavorable matchups into wins.
Goblins was easy, similar to MonoWhite Control I suppose.
Threshold was about even: sometimes well-placed counters were enough, and sometimes ScepterChant spelled game-over.
Against Deadguy, getting out Tax was key. If I could get out Tax, I won. Otherwise, the discard could disrupt me enough. This was very dependant upon the coinflip (turn 1 Duress or Tax).
Keep in mind that I only played very few games. The matchup-analysis might change with more testing.

Although the testing isn't anything conclusive, I could already feel its power. The power level of Land Tax and the impact it would have on Legacy is leagues above Mind over Matter, Hermit Druid and Earthcraft.

Complete_Jank

09-25-2006, 06:19 PM

I didn't even bring up that the deck I ran before the Artifact combo, won for longer as well, but then again, I'm not using that as proof that Timesifter is broken and should be banned.

You would be surprised what the expression of another player is when you drop a turn two Timesifter, or that when a control deck reveals a Force of Will, they still don't get to take the next turn. However, Like I said already, I'm not claiming that Timesifter is broken, but its record was better than the Metal Worker Combo Deck, just no where near as fun to play, thus I stopped playing it. So take your "I'm better than you" remarks else where, because they make you sound childish, funny seeing how you were calling another posters remarks that very same thing.

As for the Metal Worker Combo Deck List, I don't have the complete list, but I'll post what I can remember, it won't be the exact card list, but you'll get the idea. This is also the list without the Mishra's Workshops, as those are Banned, and I don't want to support an arguement that something should remained banned by using another Banned card. Only card on this list that is banned is Metal Worker.

8 MVP's (Invincible to Duress)
4 Metal Worker
4 Voltaic Construct

14 Win Condition Cards
4 Staff of Domination
4 Planar Portal
3 Goblin Canon
3 Myr Incubator

8 Answers
4 Karn
1 Mindslaver
1 Memnarch
1 Bosh
1 Pentivus

11 Mana Adders/Fixers
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Guilded Lotus
4 Lotus Petal

4 Of these guys
4 Goblin Welder

15 Land
4 Crystal Vein
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Tradors
4 Mountain

Side board
4 Chalic of the Void
4 Defense Grids
3 Mindslavers
4 Jester's Cap

Infinite Mana can be produced by the following.
1 - Metal Worker & Voltaic Construct
2 - Metal Worker & Staff of Domination
3 - Karn, Voltaic Construct, & Thran Dynamo
4 - Karn, Voltaic Construct, & Guilded Lotus

Infinite Mana with any of the following is game over:
Staff of Domination
Goblin Canon

Infinite Mana with the following an no counter spell by your opponent is game over:
Planar Portal

Infinite Colored Mana with any of the following is game over:
Memnarch
Bosh

Memnarch is in the deck to take things like Ivory Mask and other problem cards.
Bosh is there to destroy the problem cards, along with another win condition.
Mindslaver is a one of to search for by Planar Portal, against certain match ups, like White Control, or Regular Control.

Match-ups
Goblins - Some where close to 100%, the only answer they have main board is a double Mog Fanatic on turn two if they even went first. Sideboard, most goblins aren't running Disenchant/Naturalize, they seem to be running Tranquil Domain and Pithing Needles, Swords of Plowshares could come in as well, but I board in 4 Chalic of the Void.

Solidarity - I'll say 50% for the lack of testing. I only played this deck once when I played the deck, and game one, I had double worker, and won after first turn force. Game two I sideboarded in more Mindslavers and Defense Grids, and beat him with his own deck.

Threshold - I'll be fair and say 50%. I never played the deck, but I think with the sideboard it is a fair matchup.

Burn - Less than 20% before side board, about 75% after sideboard. You can win with Chalice just by shutting them down before they can even cast the spell of that cost, but it is the most played deck that has a chance to beat you.

The only deck I ever really feared playing against was a Black based deck with Hymns and Dark Rituals, and a board full of Dampening Matrix's. Luckily, it isn't something that is played. I did however see that once, and only because a friend said he was tired of seeing me win.

Also, it faced Dragon and Hermit Druid/Sutured Ghoul back in the day, and Dragon was about a 50% match up and Ghoul was about 60%.

The deck was much Stronger with the Mishra's Workshops, however, the deck is still play able with out them.

Bongo

09-25-2006, 08:01 PM

Lukas Preuss

09-26-2006, 10:40 AM

Just to clarify for everyone this was before Pithing Needle was printed.

Edit: A few months ago at one of our monthly Legacy tournaments in Germany, a guy that was not entirely familiar with the banned list brought a Metalworker deck. People didn't even bother calling the judge until round 3 or 4, because they had no problem beating him. I talked to one of my friends who played him in round two and I was like: "Why didn't you call a judge?" He was just like: "I seemed to have so much fun. And he was never close to winning anyways."

Edit 2: Hm, you're right, Mr. Nightmare. My mistake. Of course Needle doesn't affect Metalworker since it's a mana ability. I should know this kind of thing. :). It's still just as vulnerable as Survival, though, since it is a creature and Legacy is a format full of creature removal.

Nightmare

09-26-2006, 10:51 AM

Yeah, but Needle affects Metalworker, as well. Appearently, there's still no big difference between the brokeness of Survival and the brokeness of Metalworker.

Metalworker
Artifact Creature
1/2
Rules Text (Oracle): : Reveal any number of artifact cards in your hand. Add 2 to your mana pool for each card revealed this way.

10/4/2004: This is a mana ability. It does not go on the stack and can't be responded to.
10/4/2004: You can reveal zero cards to gain zero mana.

Pithing Needle
Artifact
Rules Text (Oracle): As Pithing Needle comes into play, name a card.
Activated abilities of permanents with that name can't be played unless they're mana abilities.
Activated abilities of cards with that name that aren't in play can't be played unless they're mana abilities

Seems to me that Pithing Needle is not an effective way to deal with Metalworker.

Bongo

09-26-2006, 02:59 PM

I tested the Metalworker list some more, and played against Gro, Madness, Psychatog, Landstill and UW Control.

The results: I lost more than I won.

Keep in mind these were mostly unsideboarded games, so artifact hate wasn't that present. Still, the list wasn't as good as it looked. As a matter of fact, the lock parts seemed stronger than Metalworker.

I can only quote myself, this is what happened:

First, MonoBrown has a high mulligan percentage, since you often are stuck with hands that don't have the right mix of mana accel and threats.
Second, the deck starts to falter when Metalworker is handled by removal or by timely Wastelands.
Third, quick testing against some DtBs show that MonoBrown is not as favored as it is supposed to be. Deadguy and Threshold were tough, especially when going second.
Fourth, unlike Goblins, MonoBrown is not resistant to hate. Null Rod, Serenity, Kataki and similar artifact hate takes this deck down.

You can add the decks mentioned above to the 3rd point.
Yeah, maybe I was unlucky and did get bad draws, but the point still stands: Metalworker is not dominant enough to warrant a banning. It might be tier 2-3, but definitely not tier 1.

By judging from my experience now, I think Land Tax is the most powerful of the banned cards still on the list. If I would do a power-ranking, it would be:

1) Land Tax
2) Metalworker
3) Earthcraft
4) Hermit Druid

Somebody please test Replenish!

Complete_Jank

09-26-2006, 05:07 PM

I don't want to insult you, but that Metalworker built is crappy. You need to mulligan a helluvalot. I just did a few testruns on MWS with your list against Goblins, Deadguy and Threshold and boah - it was almost 100%. Almost 100% for Goblins, Deadguy and Threshold combined.

I don't think you played the deck properly, specially if you are lossing to Goblins. The only way it is a 100% for the other decks is if you are conceeding.

Does the deck need to Muligan, yes it does. I stated that when I wrote it up, but it still can win with 5 card hands, or 4 card hands if on the draw for artifacts, which isn't hard, go count how many artifacts are in the deck.

As for the timely wasteland remark. Play mountain say go. Play non basic two tapper, and play metal worker. That is worst case senario for playing around wasteland.

I played the deck for months, and yes it was MUCH stronger with the Workshops, but it is still competitive without.

One last thing that I mentioned before. These banned cards may be able to be dealt with by the tier one decks, if they came off the banned list, but many other decks could not deal with them, thus the reason they are banned. You shouldn't have to play one or two cards that answer a single card or lose.

PunkRocker1134

09-27-2006, 12:09 PM

One last thing that I mentioned before. These banned cards may be able to be dealt with by the tier one decks, if they came off the banned list, but many other decks could not deal with them, thus the reason they are banned. You shouldn't have to play one or two cards that answer a single card or lose.

if you can't deal with a 1/2 you're gonna lose anyway. seriously if you ghave a bad Stax match then chances are you'll have a bad Metalworker Stax match. If you can't deal with a 1/1 youre gonna lose alot anyway.

and on testing REplenish any specific lists to test, also any more tweaked lists on any card we want to test?

edit: i dont mean to sound any bit offensive in my post btw and I would like to test sometime in the near future myself.

Complete_Jank

09-27-2006, 04:00 PM

Ok, how about someone start off with an old deck list and how it ran, and then we'll go from there with Replenish.

quicksilver

09-27-2006, 04:02 PM

One list that comes to mind is enchantress, which is still midly competitive today.

Anarky87

09-27-2006, 04:49 PM

For awhile my friend was running a casual version of the old Pandeburst combo. Essentially U/W with Force and Swords, draw that dumped cards into the graveyard, and tutors that went and found Replenish. It was kinda meh, but fun nonetheless to play.

Artowis

09-27-2006, 06:07 PM

if you can't deal with a 1/2 you're gonna lose anyway. seriously if you ghave a bad Stax match then chances are you'll have a bad Metalworker Stax match. If you can't deal with a 1/1 youre gonna lose alot anyway.

and on testing REplenish any specific lists to test, also any more tweaked lists on any card we want to test?

edit: i dont mean to sound any bit offensive in my post btw and I would like to test sometime in the near future myself.
Um... Solidarity and Iggy can't deal with a 1/2 creature on any consistent basis and I hear those decks are pretty good. Like I understand your impication, but it means nothing without proper context. Blanket statements like that don't actually mean anything.

Complete_Jank

09-27-2006, 06:12 PM

Um... Solidarity and Iggy can't deal with a 1/2 creature on any consistent basis and I hear those decks are pretty good. Like I understand your impication, but it means nothing without proper context. Blanket statements like that don't actually mean anything.

LOL, I didn't go there, because I know this post will only be deleted as well the others.

Many decks can't deal with certain cards, that is just the design of magic. If you make a deck that can answer anything, then you lose direction, but become more adaptive.

PunkRocker1134

09-27-2006, 07:08 PM

Warmonger

09-28-2006, 03:51 PM

Some hypotetical build based on old T1 Workshop Aggro:

4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
2 Sundering Titan
3 Triskelion

3 Sword of Fire & Ice
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of The Void

2 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
2 Mountain
4 Great Furnace

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Defense Grid
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle

Instant Stax pieces + serious threats to beat with, especially to beat the aggro.
What does Metalworker do in here? Just allows us to use Swords and huge creatures, even under the Sphere of Wire.

Atwa

09-28-2006, 05:34 PM

Here is the Land Tax list I have been working on:

The Lands:
8 Plains
4 Windsweapt Heath
3 Forest
3 Secluded Steppe
2 Savannah
2 Wasteland
1 Flagstones of Trokair

Some ways to kill:
4 Terravore
1 Eternal Dragon

The Core:
4 Land Tax
4 Solitary Confinement
3 Scroll Rack
3 Enlightened Tutor

Utility and Protection:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Wing Shards
2 Life from the Loam

Tutor Board (sorry, no wishes):
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Parallax Wave
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Defense Grid
1 Rule of Law

I am posting this list so other members can toy with it, I don't have the time to do some extensive testing, unfortunatly. Maybe the list is crap, maybe someone can get some ideas from it.

Some explanations:
Swords to Plowshares & Wing Shards: We all live in a format filled with creatures. Kill them or get killed.

Land Tax & Solitary Confinement: The reason to play Land Tax in this deck. The extra lands give you enough discard material to keep Confinement on the table.

Life from the Loam: General Utility. Ressurects Wasteland, cycleland and Heaths. Loam also helps when drawing you cards when you must skip your drawphase.

Scroll Rack: The other way to draw cards whenever having a Confinement on the table.

Terravore: This deck gets a lot of lands in your grave. This guy loves lands in the grave.

Enlightened Tutor: This gets you your missing lockpieces or some silver bullets against some matchups and even saves your ass a couple of times. I am considering to replace it with Sterling Grove.

Eternal Dragon: It gets you a plains/savannah and counts as a secondary wincondition when facing a Moat or when the grave gets removed for some reason. Also very good in blocking irritating Exalted Angels (before they get equiped).

The tutorbox: I just trew this together for testing, and I haven't been disapointed yet. There is something for everyone. Tormod's Crypt, Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle and Seal of Cleansing are nobrainers. Rule of Law and Defense Grid are against Combo (and sometimes control), Parallax wave works wonders against agro decks (Angel Stompy does play it as a 4-off for a good reason).

I hope this helps some people with some ideas/data, I really like this project. As soon as I have more spare time, I will start testing again. Testing for the Dutch Open Legacy and working a lot have a lot more priority at the moment.

PunkRocker1134

10-01-2006, 08:44 PM

anyone get any testing done? or have any more ideas to input?

Kadaj

10-01-2006, 11:13 PM

I managed to obtain conclusive proof that Mind Over Matter sucks. I put the Spring Tide variant through a gauntlet, and came upon the simple fact that 9 times out of 10 MoM would be better off as nearly anything else. It didn't help any matchups, and if anything made the deck more susceptable to discard based stratagies because of the high CC that made it impossible to cast without doing it mid-combo.

I also built a combo around it, Academy Rector, and reanimating Niv-Mizzet for the win. Needless to say, it was slow, clunky, and got blown apart by any disruption at all. I can post the list if you guys want, but MoM is for all intents and purposes totally useless.

Bongo

10-02-2006, 06:59 AM

@Warmonger:
If you go the Workshop aggro route, wouldn't Juggernaut be better than Metalworker? You don't have the Staff of Domination combo anymore, and in your version you want to be attacking with an equipped Metalworker, not tapping it for mana.

@atwa2002:
Have you seen my list posted above? I have found Mono-White to be the most efficient way to abuse Land Tax because of the basic land rule. I think Goblin Charbelcher is a better win-condition than Terravore.

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The preliminary Replenish list:

Combo:
4XReplenish
2xSaproling Burst
2xPandemonium

Search:
4xBrainstorm
4xCareful Study
4xIdeas Unbound
4xIntuition

Protection:
4xDuress
4xCounterspell
4xForce of Will

Mana:
4xMox Diamond
4xAncient Tomb
4xPolluted Delta
4xFlooded Strand
4xTundra
4xUnderground Sea

This is a rough draft based on the old Pandeburst combo. The goal is to set up a win on turn 3. Careful Study and Ideas Unbound replace Attunement and try to mimick Bazaar of Bagdad.

Although I only did a handful of test-games, this seems like another deck that is good on paper and in goldfishing sessions, but horrible in real-life.
Goblins was good, but Threshold and Deadguy were absolute nightmares. Replenish reminded me a lot of Belcher.

I don't know if Replenish would be "broken" in an Enchantress list with Earthcraft, although I doubt it. I would appreciate if somebody would step up and do some more testing, cos it feels like I'm doing the majority of the work here.

EDIT: After thinking about it, this can't be better than Iggy Pop.

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Current power-ranking:

1) Land Tax
2) Replenish
3) Metalworker
4) Earthcraft
5) Hermit Druid
6) Mind over Matter

After these short testing sessions, I think everything but Land Tax is pretty safe. None of this cards would spawn a new deck that would absolutely dominate the format.