[Deck] Crystal Lake - UB Control

[DarkAkuma]

This week I desided to build a new deck I havent seen around here before (atleast with the same idea and more then 25% of the cards I used), but plays with a bit of familiarity/generaly good cards. After thinking about Dark Confidant and Shadowmage Infiltraitor, I realized they should make a nice team/card advantage. I proceeded to design a Discard/Counter deck to go with them. Heres what I came up with.

Crystal Lake - BU Control

// Lands
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
2 [RAV] Watery Grave
2 [B] Swamp (3)
2 [B] Island (1)

// Creatures
3 [OD] Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [RAV] Dimir Infiltrator

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SH] Mana Leak
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [US] Duress
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [B] Dark Ritual
3 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
3 [TO] Chainer's Edict
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [DIS] Azorius Guildmage
SB: 4 [ON] Infest

It has since been playtested quite a bit, and even did fairly well (2nd) in a tourney piloted by a friend, and its seems solid enough to develop further.

Its strenghs and weaknesses are:

Combo = Good
Control = Nice
Agro/Control = so-so
Agro = Bad

The sideboard deffinantly needs some love, but i'd like to optimize the main to round it out a bit better against a larger field.

My main beefs with the deck are the slots occupied by the Chainers Edicts and Jittes. I figure editing those around in adition to adjusting the numbers of some other cards like counters can help the deck round out better.

I tried Dark Blasts for awhile, they wernt preforming well. Tried Echoing Truth main. Bleech! Went with the chainers last minute since the deck controls the pace of the game, and alot of times the huge flashback can be payed. I couldnt realy think of enough situations where the instant speed Diabolic Edict would be preffered.

I added the Jittes mainly to stop Bob from completey beating me down, and also as another form of removeal. My playtesting hasent realy yielded enough games with Jitte to realy make a good argument aganist/for keeping it, but somehow I do feel there should be something better.

The Cranial Etractions have been realy nice. I was considering them and Lobotomy, and went with them cause their not a useless topdeck wen your opponant doesent have any cards in hand. Its simply nut forceing/dazeing through a Dark Ritual + Cranial turn 2 against Solidarity.

I added the Mishra's Factory's after my initial build, cause the 7-8 creatures at that time, just werent doing enough. Often i'd see a game end up in top deck mode for both of us, where id be winning if i just had a damn creature in play. Since i added them, they have helped a TON which is why im considering adjusting them back up to a full compliment of 4.

So does anyone have any interest/subjetions for this new fun deck?

BTW: BJ Lovin = Bob and Jon Lovin, for you people with dirty minds. =)

[Mirrislegend]

Your minimal number of lands prompts the changes I'm recommending:
-Play Diabolic Edict over Chainer's Edict, seeing as you are never going to get the mana for flashback, and thus the Instant-speed Diabolic is strictly superior
-Play 4 Bob. He's a house. Sure you risk hitting FoW, but you NEED the draw
-If you're running 4 Bob, you can/should probably drop 1 Cranial Extraction, just because this ISNT The Rock and CANNOT easily handle a 4cc card

The other changes come from the fact that you're not running enough creatures:
-Cabal Therapy is best when it can be flashed back to maximum effect. How often are you able and willing to do that? Just drop it
-With those four slots, add in 4 Dimir Infiltrators. It's got a (relatively) fat ass to hold down the board, and carries a Jitte like nothing else. And it tutors for Jitte, as well as Bob, Mana Leak, and Edict.

Speaking of Mana Leak, take Rune Snag for a spin in it's place. While your deck isnt designed to go long game, your win condition (beating with 1 or 2 power creatures) takes a long time to do its job. And it's relatively rare that the 3 of Mana Leak matters as opposed to the 2 of Rune Snag

Good luck

[Cavius The Great]

A big mistake in the deck, that I see, is the fundemental flaw of running mana intensive blue spells and dark ritual. In a control deck, you never want to sacrifice card advantage for speed, ever. The only real exception to the rules is probably Mox Diamond so you can set up a first turn counter. but all in all, Dark Rituals in a blue based control deck is a big no-no.

[DarkAkuma]

Your minimal number of lands prompts the changes I'm recommending:
-Play Diabolic Edict over Chainer's Edict, seeing as you are never going to get the mana for flashback, and thus the Instant-speed Diabolic is strictly superior
-Play 4 Bob. He's a house. Sure you risk hitting FoW, but you NEED the draw
-If you're running 4 Bob, you can/should probably drop 1 Cranial Extraction, just because this ISNT The Rock and CANNOT easily handle a 4cc card

The other changes come from the fact that you're not running enough creatures:
-Cabal Therapy is best when it can be flashed back to maximum effect. How often are you able and willing to do that? Just drop it
-With those four slots, add in 4 Dimir Infiltrators. It's got a (relatively) fat ass to hold down the board, and carries a Jitte like nothing else. And it tutors for Jitte, as well as Bob, Mana Leak, and Edict.

Speaking of Mana Leak, take Rune Snag for a spin in it's place. While your deck isnt designed to go long game, your win condition (beating with 1 or 2 power creatures) takes a long time to do its job. And it's relatively rare that the 3 of Mana Leak matters as opposed to the 2 of Rune Snag

Good luck

First i need to say, this deck has been thourghly tested this past week by me (a veteran of 12 years), and has undergone alot of adjustment into the deck list posted. You realy need to try the deck first i guess before you make a major disection like that.

The lands in this deck may seem like a low number, but thier not. In the case of Chainers Edict, the intent isnt to cast i all the time. Its for additional late game options, and to make late game top deck Dark Rituals useful. But still, i do feel their might be something better, and i dont mean Diabolic, at least for the reasons/lack of reasons you posted.

I originaly had 4 Bobs. But ive never been as impressed with him as others, ad testng in this deck has only helped impress me a little. I hate haveing doubles in play, which is why he useualy gets cabaled on a slight feeling that i need to. But i do agree this can be a little lacking in creatures every now and then. When i added the mishras, they helped a ton. But i still think 2-4 more creatures in the deck might be best.

Dimir Infiltraitor now. I'm not to familiar with some of the later sets, so i didnt know of him. He seems very nice for this deck. He will deffinantly fill my 2-4.

This isnt rock, but it most certainly can and has handle(d) the 4cc Cranial as a 3 of. Ive tought about moveing 1-3 to the board, since against argo thier less helpful. Againt combo, they win games. Against control, they help alot. Agro, very so-so.

As for Cabal Therapy, you dont need to go full force into double useing it to play it. Hittng just once with one is fine eough. Duress',s Cranials, and skill keep it hiting someting often eough. And between mishras and confidants, their has been enough options to pop it a second time.

Ive been considering Rune Snag. I might play it. I just dont know if thier have been enough games so far where ive played 2 or more mana leaks where a Sang would be better. Truthfully, leak would be the first counter adjusted down in number if i needed to make space.

[DarkAkuma]

A big mistake in the deck, that I see, is the fundemental flaw of running mana intensive blue spells and dark ritual. In a control deck, you never want to sacrifice card advantage for speed, ever. The only real exception to the rules is probably Mox Diamond so you can set up a first turn counter. but all in all, Dark Rituals in a blue based control deck is a big no-no.

I dont see any "mana intensive blue spells" besides a hard cast force. And I wouldnt consider this a "blue based control deck" either. Its mostly black.

But i have thought about adjusting down/removeing the rituals since there has been a few hands where their was a extra unspent mana thanks to Shadowmages casting cost and lack of a Duress/Therapy. First/second turn Cranials against Combo and Control though, have stoped me from messing with those. I guess instead, if anything, id like to find more uses for the rituals besides late game Chainers Edict flashbacks.

[Cavius The Great]

I dont see any "mana intensive blue spells" besides a hard cast force. And I wouldnt consider this a "blue based control deck" either. Its mostly black.

I think you just killed yourself with that comment. Any good player knows not to include Force of Will in a deck that's "mostly black".


But i have thought about adjusting down/removeing the rituals since there has been a few hands where their was a extra unspent mana thanks to Shadowmages casting cost and lack of a Duress/Therapy. First/second turn Cranials against Combo and Control though, have stoped me from messing with those. I guess instead, if anything, id like to find more uses for the rituals besides late game Chainers Edict flashbacks.

And you still don't have enough first turn plays in the deck to make Dark Ritual that useful. relying on rituals to cast late game Chainer's Edict is bad strategy and a fatal mistake.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I think you just killed yourself with that comment. Any good player knows not to include Force of Will in a deck that's "mostly black".



And you still don't have enough first turn plays in the deck to make Dark Ritual that useful. relying on rituals to cast late game Chainer's Edict is bad strategy and a fatal mistake.

I see 19 blue cards in the deck. That's enough to support FoW.

[Amoeba-]

Why not just play Psychatog!?:eek:

[Cavius The Great]

I see 19 blue cards in the deck. That's enough to support FoW.

Then I guess his build isn't mostly black like he said it was. :tongue: That brings us back to the ritual situation. Any good player would realize that it's bad to run Dark rituals in a deck with 19 blue cards. There are much better thing that you can be doing for four mana. Fact of Fiction would be a much better choice than some clunky sorcery. Sorceries in general, aren't that good in control decks with very few exceptions, such as Duress, Serum Visions and Portent. You have to realize that with more card drawing instants, you're more able to play "permission" properly and pick and choose when you counter a spell and when you're able to play a draw spell at the end of your opponent's turn. With sorceries, it hinders your deck too much, especially one costing you four mana.

[DarkAkuma]

Then I guess his build isn't mostly black like he said it was. :tongue: That brings us back to the ritual situation. Any good player would realize that it's bad to run Dark rituals in a deck with 19 blue cards. There are much better thing that you can be doing for four mana. Fact of Fiction would be a much better choice than some clunky sorcery. Sorceries in general, aren't that good in control decks with very few exceptions, such as Duress, Serum Visions and Portent. You have to realize that with more card drawing instants, you're more able to play "permission" properly and pick and choose when you counter a spell and when you're able to play a draw spell at the end of your opponent's turn. With sorceries, it hinders your deck too much, especially one costing you four mana.

Dude, just dont post on my thread anymore. I can see allready by your insults to me, your just trying to turn my thread into a flame war. I want to critique the hell out of your statements, but im just not going to since it would derail the goal of this thread completely.

Anyway, this while this deck is mostly black (26 cards), it has enough blue cards for force (20 total). Lategame Chainers is in no way my only reason of haveing ritual. I mis-worded my statement above. My main reason, but not only, is 2nd turn Cranial (dark ritual isnt a first turn only card). But it also helps push out a first turn bob with a cabal/duress, or a 2nd turn jon with a cabal/duress. Activates several mishras by itself leaveing more mana open for disruption. And helps cast and equip Jitte right away.

But as i said, while that is several uses for it, i have still been considering takeing them out. I guess further testing will help me deside one way or another. I myself will probly be piloting this deck at the next tourney i go to, so hopefully by then i will have desided.

BTW:

-1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
-1 Cabal Therapy

+2 Dimir Infiltrator

[Cavius The Great]

Dude, just dont post on my thread anymore. I can see allready by your insults to me, your just trying to turn my thread into a flame war. I want to critique the hell out of your statements, but im just not going to since it would derail the goal of this thread completely.

Anyway, this while this deck is mostly black (26 cards), it has enough blue cards for force (20 total). Lategame Chainers is in no way my only reason of haveing ritual. I mis-worded my statement above. My main reason, but not only, is 2nd turn Cranial (dark ritual isnt a first turn only card). But it also helps push out a first turn bob with a cabal/duress, or a 2nd turn jon with a cabal/duress. Activates several mishras by itself leaveing more mana open for disruption. And helps cast and equip Jitte right away.

But as i said, while that is several uses for it, i have still been considering takeing them out. I guess further testing will help me deside one way or another. I myself will probly be piloting this deck at the next tourney i go to, so hopefully by then i will have desided.

BTW:

-1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
-1 Cabal Therapy

+2 Dimir Infiltrator


I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just telling you whats on my mind. On another note, have you considered Quicken? It basically turns all you sorceries to instants which would probably benefit the deck significantly, plus it's a cantrip. :smile:

[Kimpa]

Would mutilate help the aggro matchup? (wild guess here) Since it should kill a lot of creatures on turn 4-5, or maby its too slow.

And how much life do you lose in aveage on bob, fetch and watery graves? It seems pretty savage, unless brainstorm an top fix it.

This is probably bad, but sword of light and shadow?? Lifegain, STP proof a little more use of cabal theraphy.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just telling you whats on my mind. On another note, have you considered Quicken? It basically turns all you sorceries to instants which would probably benefit the deck significantly, plus it's a cantrip. :smile:

Thats just silly. Quicken wouldn't really help him at all. The reason why he can say his deck is "mostly black" and still have 19 blue cards is because 5 of his guys are multicolored and the rest of the blue is counter. Speaking of which, has pitching a counter to FoW ever been a bad thing for you? I typically hate wasting a counter to FoW unless its completely needed.

[Cavius The Great]

Thats just silly. Quicken wouldn't really help him at all. The reason why he can say his deck is "mostly black" and still have 19 blue cards is because 5 of his guys are multicolored and the rest of the blue is counter. Speaking of which, has pitching a counter to FoW ever been a bad thing for you? I typically hate wasting a counter to FoW unless its completely needed.

Ok, he has 13 sorceries he's running in a control deck. Running Quicken will allow him to play them on the end of your opponent's turn. It doesn't take a half retarded monkey to figure out that running Quicken makes almost a quarter of his deck actually playable.

[Complete_Jank]

Ok, he has 13 sorceries he's running in a control deck. Running Quicken will allow him to play them on the end of your opponent's turn. It doesn't take a half retarded monkey to figure out that running Quicken makes almost a quarter of his deck actually playable.

Cavius, It is quite aparent that you don't like the deck, and flaming him/the deck. I should know, I do it every once inawhile too. Your remark about Quicken was obviously intended to not make the deck better. Why don't you leave the thread like asked, besides I responded to your rediculous remark in the Juzan decision and am awaiting your feable reply.

Most people actually don't like U/B beat decks, because it isn't the typical thinking of how the colors are played. U/B can be played more strongly a different way

First thing I would do is send Cranial Extraction packing to the side board, as Duress and Cabal Therapy are already main. It is only really good against Iggy and belcher anyways. Solidarity can still win after it resolves, and has counter back up.

Secondly, put Engineered Plagues in your sideboard, and probably BEB and/or Hydroblast, as Goblins will roll you.

[DarkAkuma]

Cavius, It is quite aparent that you don't like the deck, and flaming him/the deck. I should know, I do it every once inawhile too. Your remark about Quicken was obviously intended to not make the deck better. Why don't you leave the thread like asked, besides I responded to your rediculous remark in the Juzan decision and am awaiting your feable reply.

Most people actually don't like U/B beat decks, because it isn't the typical thinking of how the colors are played. U/B can be played more strongly a different way

First thing I would do is send Cranial Extraction packing to the side board, as Duress and Cabal Therapy are already main. It is only really good against Iggy and belcher anyways. Solidarity can still win after it resolves, and has counter back up.

Secondly, put Engineered Plagues in your sideboard, and probably BEB and/or Hydroblast, as Goblins will roll you.

Ive been seriously considering moveing Crainial to the board, since of all the cards, it and the creature removeal (currently chainers Edict) are the only cards that arent useful in every match up. I guess they should share the same slot when it comes to boarding. When it comes to Solidarity (and spring tide. Both have been tested against) Crainial rules. It would acctualy be sided in against it. Turn 1-2 Crainial nameing high tide wrecks them. They dont scoop, since they have cunning wish still, but they still have a very hard time winning thanks to all the discard and counters. Turn 4 Cranial is a little harder to get through, but this deck has more counters then a standard Solidarity build, throwing the odds in my favor. That combined with duresses and cabals the previous turns makes it a struggle for them. Hitting the high tides with cranial, leaves you enough room to site back and practicly only counter cunning wishs. Another top decked crainial goes right after wishes, and then they useualy scoop. I cant say this is unbeatable against solidarity, but its well in my favor.

I would put EP or blasts in board, but my meta lacks goblins atm. I was the only one with goblins, and since i tore it apart, i dont have to worry about it.


Thats just silly. Quicken wouldn't really help him at all. The reason why he can say his deck is "mostly black" and still have 19 blue cards is because 5 of his guys are multicolored and the rest of the blue is counter. Speaking of which, has pitching a counter to FoW ever been a bad thing for you? I typically hate wasting a counter to FoW unless its completely needed.

Sure theres times when you run out of counters when you say "if only i didnt pitch that counter a few turns ago". But the discard, chainers, jittes, and cranials takes care of enough threats by themselves, that they allow you to be a bit more selective with your counters.


Ok, he has 13 sorceries he's running in a control deck. Running Quicken will allow him to play them on the end of your opponent's turn. It doesn't take a half retarded monkey to figure out that running Quicken makes almost a quarter of his deck actually playable.

Im sorry, but just because a card is a Sorcery doesent make it unplayable and have to be worked around. I have NEVER felt the need to cast a Duress, Cabal Therapy, Cranial Extraction, or Chainers Edict at instant speed. Well, maybe not the Chainers, but the desire to have a instant speed removeal has been infrequant enough to not feel the need to change to Diabolic... yet...

Besides, the decklist feels very tight to me right now, so id have a hell of a time makeing room for Quickens. Sure if Cranials ended up in the board, id have more room, but id have other, better considerations for those slots.


Would mutilate help the aggro matchup? (wild guess here) Since it should kill a lot of creatures on turn 4-5, or maby its too slow.

And how much life do you lose in aveage on bob, fetch and watery graves? It seems pretty savage, unless brainstorm an top fix it.

This is probably bad, but sword of light and shadow?? Lifegain, STP proof a little more use of cabal theraphy.

I havent tested much hate against agro yet. So far i like infest the most. Mutilate is nice, but a turn slower, and doesent work off a ritual alone. Also the fact that Infest doesent kill my Jons or Dimirs is nice. Still, i dont like Infest all that much either. Its just what i pay till i can come up with something i like more.

Bob hurts. Brainstorms REALY help, but still arent as much as i could desire. Alot of the time you take only 0-1 damage (17 Land, 15 1cc). But occasionaly luck wont be on your side and you will hit a cranial or force, and that realy hurts. Thats why Bob went from a 4of to a 3of, and might change to a 2of. Jitte helps a ton though. Specialy now since Dimirs have been added (can get them more now). But i almost always keep an eye on the yard makeing sure i have cabal as an out if i need it. Fetchlands dont do much, and Water Grave rarely comes into play untapped. Acctualy, i might go with a Swamp and Island instead of those to lower its vulnerability to Wasteland.

I thought about SoLS, but 2 jittes is just enough for the deck. And SoLS cant be fetched with Dimir.

BTW: Im changeing the name of the deck to "Crystal Lake". I dont need to name decks random slightly funny names. Styleish and somewhat makeing sence, is enough for me.

[DarkAkuma]

Ok, in the interest of keeping this deck evolving, as much as it pains me, i desided to move the 3 Cranial Extractions to the board along with a 4th. To me, their like 4cc Meddling Mages that cant be stoped with creature removal, so they probly wont completely disappear from the list any time soon, if ever.

But now im left with 3 spots to fill. Prefferably id like to place something 3cc in those slots. And something that helps agro match ups. Or something that causes continuos disruption or a soft lock of sorts, while still staying in theme with the rest of the deck.

Hyppie is the only thing that comes to mind, but still i feel their should be something better.

[darkgenasi]

well hello there. i am actually the one who plays the deck ( just in case you don't belive me i'll see you on saterday) and it does fine if you play it right. And with a little luck, just like any other deck it does really well. well all we really need is so answer for aggro. as for all the thing above we only change or keep something in the deck after alot of playtesting. well if you have something for aggro just post.

[DarkAkuma]

Unless I can come up with something else, im just going to go with 3 hyppy's saturday when i play this.

So from the list in the first post, it will be:

Main:
-3x Cranial Extraction
+3x Hypnotic Specter

Sideboard:
-3x Sensei's Divining Top
-4x Azorius Guildmage
-1x Echoing Truth
+4x Cranial Extraction
+4x Leyline of the Void

At our saturday tourney, we dont have goblins. Mostly just have to worry about Rock, Solidarity, and Rifter. And occasional appearances by Threshold, RG Beats, Burn and Affinity. A friend is building Farie Stompy too, and may have enough to play it soon. So ill edit the board from there saturday when i have a better idea whats going to be played.

[Elf_Ascetic]

I don't know if it belongs here, since I chose to run Tog, but anyway, here's my list. It isn't optimal jet, so some help is appreciated :)

4 Tog - Your finisher, wonderblocker, etc. Just a great card, even in a deck not specially build around him.
4 Dark Confidant - A two-beater for 1B with a sick drawengine. No need to explain further.
4 Dimir Cutpurse - Found it better than Hypnotic Specter since it speeds you up. I play enough removal to let it beat my opponent. It puts more presure on my opponent than Shadowmage Infiltrator.

4 Brainstorm - autocard.. Digging, cantripping, filling your grave, synergy with fetch, etc..
4 Duress - pulls direct damage, humility's, fow's and stp's.
4 Mana Leak - cause 6 counterspells is too few.
4 Force of Will - well, duh..
2 Daze - counters unexpected, great card.
2 Sensei's Top - Soo strong with Dark Confidant and fetchland. Couldn't find room for nr. 3.
2 Mystical Tutor - Toolbox fetcher, really, this card is the answer on everythinh.
1 Echoing Thruth - Bounces threats, bounces cards like humility, and lets you counter them when they play them again.
1 Diabolic Edict - Removal for Mongooses and Mystic Enforcer if you can't bounce him.
1 Smother - Kills gobbo's, clears the way for Cutpurses and Confidants.
3 Darkblast - See Smother. Dredge is tech with Sensei's Top, Brainstorm, en Tog of course.

4 Wasteland - Mana base can support this, so why not?
4 Polluted Delta - no comment
4 Watery Grave (got only 1 sea) - should be 4 Sea
1 Underground Sea - should be 1 island.
3 Island - no comment
4 Swamp - no comment

EDIT:
Just ran into Rune Snag. This card is worse than Mana Leak the first time you play it, but after that, it keeps getting better. Has some tech with dredge. What do you guys think?

[DarkAkuma]

That isnt anywhere close to my deck, so no, it doesent belong here.

[DarkAkuma]

Bummer.

I didnt get to play Crystall Lake in the tourny today, since darkgenasi didnt bring his 4x LotV and 4x Infest, which i felt pretty much were required for me to have decent odds against the other decks showing up. Instead i played Bauble Burn, and split for top 2.

However, darkgenasi did play this deck today despite the lack of optimal meta cards. He didnt do so great, loseing to Rock and Farie Stompy i think. The deck still played the maindeck cranials, and the board was something like.

1x Chainers Edict
1x Cranial Extraction
3x Planar Void
4x Aurious guildmage
3x Eradicate
3x Echoing Truth (guessing on this)

I didnt get to watch his Farie Stompy matchup very well, but i did finish my match early and watch some of his Rock match. He bored in Planar Voids (substitue for my wanting LotV in the board), and got it out first turn. But the Planar voids were messing him up too from what i could see. No flashing back Chainers or Therapy. No therapy sucked from what i could tell, as it would have been nice when his confidant was beating him down more then the Rock player.

Also, Chainers being a sorcery did become a negative when the rock player kept swinging with Treetop Villages. I liked haveing the option to flashback chainers, maximizeing my ammount of creature removeal, but i think if he brings the right cards next week, and i play it, ill deffinantly try Diabolic Edict in place of Chainers (had to give the chainers back to my other friend anyway).

Rock is played every week there, and seems to be giving everyone the most trouble, so i guess ill meta the board and deck alittle more torwards it then i normaly would.

Ive been thinking about trying to work in some Wastelands to the list, but haveing a hard time finding room. They deffinantly would have helped today. Been considering droping the 2 Watery Grave for more basics/4th Mishras, so may give Wasteland some thought for those slots.