[Deck] G/W Aggro

[Blair Phoenix]

I realize that their is another W/G beats decklist on the source, but as it's nearly 2 years old since anyone's posted on it, and the fact that our decklists vary greatly, I decided to make a new thread. If a moderater feels that a new thread isn't warranted however, then by all means either combine, or lock this thread.

I've been working on this deck for quite a while, going through many tweaks and changes till I finally got to the decklist below. It's a pretty basic aggro deck with light control.

Props to Phantom for both his input and much needed support

Here's the list:

Mana Sources:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 plains
4 Chrome Mox
2 Treetop Village

Creatures:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Watchwolf
4 Ohran Viper
4 Glowrider
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Anurid Brushhopper


Spells:
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Rancor
3 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard:
Note: The sideboard is anything but complete and definately needs to be ironed out. My lack of a good meta hasn't really helped much either.

4 Rule of Law
4 Tormod's Crypt/Jotun Grunt
7 unknowns at the moment

Card Choices:

Elvish Spirit Guide:Quick and Easy Mana Accel.

Watchwolf:Efficient beater that fits the mana curve

Ohran Viper:Gives the deck needed card draw + can kill pretty much anything that gets in its way.

Glowrider:One of the only outs against Solidarity preboard, Glowrider also makes any match against combo generally better, and also helps against the control matchups as well.

Troll Ascetic:Beater that can regen PLUS can be pumped with little worry due to untargetability? Golden.

Anurid Brushhopper:Normally just a 3/4 for 3 mana which is good by itself, it can dodge almost all removal using it's ability which CAN be worth it in some situations.



Swords to Plowshares:This deck has access to white mana. Need a better explanation? Best targeted removal in the game.

Rancor:Pump and trample for a single mana. Staple in any green beatdown deck.

Umezawa's Jitte:Still think it's a bit slow, but with glowrider mainboard, it looks to be a better choice overall. Life gain, targeted removal, and pump all in one. Good stuff.


Wasteland:In conjunction with Glowrider and Armageddon, Wasteland is a soild choice to further disrupt your opponent

Sideboard choices were mainly chosen to improve this deck's worst matchups(combo). Not really up to scratch on the best ways to hose solidarity/iggy pop/whatever so advice is definately welcome

Cards not used:

Savannah Lions/IsamaruCost efficient, but they aren't worth pumping, and after the first few turns, they are utter crap to draw into. While you could say the same for birds/elves, the fact is that at least birds and elves will atleast provide a nice cushion of mana when and if you geddon.

Exalted Angel:E Angel is an excellent card, but here she is simply to slow, too vulnerable when morphed face down, and a win more card for this deck. playing her face down, and morhping her face up is essentially a waste of a turn which you could have played a threat, and for the most part, she won't win you any matches that the deck couldn't already win by its own.

Ravenous Baloth:Was playing this in the old versian of the deck due to synergy with brushhopper, but the fact that Hierarch gave immediate life gains seemed more prevelant

Matchups:

Haven't really had the time to thoroughly test, to have exact numbers, but playing in several tournaments plus light testing has given me a good idea of the matchups.

Goblins:Definately in our favor. All our creature are bigger than theirs, plus life gain from armadillo cloak and hierarch makes this an easy matchup as long as you can surrive the initial onslaught before mounting your own offenseive. Hierarch is definately MVP here with both life gain and a fat body. No SB as I didn't really think it was necessary.

Threshold:I'd say the matchup was about even. Our threats match theirs, so the only thing that really is prevelant is pushing through threats, which I usually find isn't that difficult. Post board with crypt/grunt should be able to tip the game in our favor.

Solidarity:Even with changes, the match isn't that good for us, but maindeck Glowrider at least makes the matchup winnable.

Iggy Pop:See Solidarity above, though their clock IS faster, so our matchup is probably even worse.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Hasn't a rule been established that if you're playing aggro you run Jittes or something?

[Blair Phoenix]

All Aggro? I'm could have sworn some goblin decks don't run jitte, as well as Thresh decks...maybe just me though:tongue:

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Thresh is aggro-control, and Goblins is special.

>_>

[Blair Phoenix]

I don't doubt the little green men are "special, but aggro-control, is STILL aggro.

[Phantom]

I've always loved me some G/W, but it's tough to make Legacy viable, although i guess that could depend on your meta. Anyway, here are some thoughts:

1) The creature base is your strength. I love Brushopper and Troll, like Hierarch a lot, and Watchwolf is solid.

2) Sadly, are pretty crappy in Legacy thanks to Fanatic and all the Goblin splash hate and sweepers which will ruin your game. Elves are slightly better since they kill lackey, but are still suspect. I would think about changing them to moxen and Wall of Roots. A moxen/creature spilt is nice so that sweepers hurt you less (except crap like Deed).

3) Rancor is great. Armadillo Cloak is terrible except on Troll, and even then it's worse than Jitte. Cloak is nice if you can get it going, but creature hate is way to prevelant to run creature enchantments that don't come back.

4) I might cut the 'geddons down to 2. They are just too inconsistent to ever draw 2. They are awful against Goblins, pretty bad against Thresh (especially if they have Daze to save a Trop or Tundra) and are iffy against combo. Still, I like that your deck is built upon it, so I have a suggestion that will help this strategy: Maindeck all 4 Glowrider's for Watchwolfs. Glowrider's beat for one less, and can't trade w/ a 'goose, but will really help with your non-Goblin matches and geddon will be even more of a game over.

5) Pop quiz, name a top Legacy deck that runs no draw or hand sculpting. I can think of one (red death) and that one succeeds through a lightning speed and a solid disruption package. Luckily, the wizards at R+D gave us Ohran Viper which I would run in the Heirach slot. This gives you three 3cc baddies which you can power out turn 2 and drop a Jitte/Rancor on turn three. Also, they are all awsome. (I suggested Wall of Roots up there, but if you do drop Heirarch then change them back to elves)

7) We already went over this but Jitte is an auto include here. It's not really slow in a deck running 8 accelerantes and it will turn games in your favor where your creatures are outclassed or you are being swarmed. Test it. There's a reason 75% of the aggro decks in the meta run it.

8) You mana base seems quite solid and I would advise -3 Forest, -1 Plains, +4 Wasteland. Wasteland can be either used to nuke their first land drop after 'geddon, or nike any non basic they have while you have Glowrider out. Also, there's always the standard "use it to buy yourself another turn 3 (which is a solid turn for you)

9) The sideboard seems pretty solid depending on your meta. Grunt is the creature de jour, and fits great here. I might even thin about 2 mainboard since it works so well w/ 'geddon. Rule of Law is a no brainer. Crypt is solid against a large number of decks. There's some 1GG instant that deals 2 dmg to all attacking creatures and 1 to all other creatures whose name I can't think of that is a solid Goblin hoser (Chang ran it in his Legacy champs madness deck) and I generally feel that Naturalize > Seal of Cleansing although that new SPLIT SECOND naturalize seems promising. Compost screws Deadguy or Red Death if you see a lot of them.

The more i talk about the deck the more I like it's chances. Anyway, here's what I would (and might) test:

//Lands (21)
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Heath
4 Savannah
4 Forest
3 plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures: (22)
4 Llanowar elves
4 Glowrider
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Anurid Brushhopper
4 Ohran Viper
3 Jotun Grunt

Spells: (17)
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Rancor
3 Jitte
2 Armageddon
4 Chrome Mox



//Sideboard (15)
4 Rule of Law
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Armageddon
3 Hail storm (that's the name of it)
3 Naturalize

[Blair Phoenix]

1. Yes I love the creature base too though it took me a while to make it

2.Goblin splash hate? I haven't really found it to be that great of a problem, at least in my meta. It's not that they don't hurt me(a good amount of them don't, The ones that do being WoG, Infest, and Deed)but the fact that many people don't think to side them in. Even if they do kill a portion of my creatures, the fact is that I run such a high amount of threats, it isn't difficult to replace them usually. Mox is a good idea, but I know if you draw them late game, they are utter shit, plus losing a card to play it kinda sucks. I'll test them though and get back to you. I don't like wall of roots however. it's a good blocker sure but the fact is I shouldn't need a good blocker, and the wall also doesn't accelerate any of my beaters into play 2nd turn unlike elves or birds.

3. Yes I had the feeling someone would say replace the cloak with Jitte. The idea has crossed my mind more than once, and the more I think about it, the better it sounds. Cloak has just won me so many games, I feel reluctant to side it out. Trample plus life gain is just really good, and it being killed once in a while feels unimportant. I suppose I'll just flirt between the 2 in testing, and see which I like more.

4. I have almost never had the problem with drawing 2 geddons. In fact, I find in a lot of games, i don't draw them at all. Personally I don't think geddon is THAT bad against Thresh, or Gobbos. All I have to do is gain board advantage, and then geddon. Unless my opponent is godly, and gets all the land draws he needs, I should be able to gain board control by the time he stabalizes. Maybe not? I'm not sold on Glowrider maindeck either. I just don't see it being much of a factor except against combo making it seem really narrow to me. Perhaps I'm wrong?

5.I do however like the idea of Viper. I knew the deck needed some sort of draw, but Hystrodon had the same problem as E Angel, and Top is too slow. I'm not sure about replacing hierarch but Viper is definately an idea. The only thing is, it's pretty weak by itself being a 1/3.

7.(as 6. seems to have gone on vacation)The only thing is, it's not just jitte's cost, but the fact that it doesn't provide any immediate bonus, which I thought would slow the deck,though I have tested it, and many times liked it however. I guess I just need to test more.

8.Ah Wasteland. Still on the fence on this one. I know it can screw an opponent at times, but I'm almost positive I will have more than one game where I'm going to wish it produced an actual color mana. I just don't see it being that useful without a way to abuse it with other land destruction point land destruction.

9.Grunt just seems like crap mainboard if I don't draw into a geddon. I just don't think it's justified main deck. Is Hailstorm really necessary? Does the Goblin matchup really need to be more refined than it already is?

Overall I like the majority of your decklist although I think it's a radical change from my own. More testing is definately required. If you do test that decklist, I would love to hear your results at any rate.

[Anarky87]

5.I do however like the idea of Viper. I knew the deck needed some sort of draw, but Hystrodon had the same problem as E Angel, and Top is too slow. I'm not sure about replacing hierarch but Viper is definately an idea. The only thing is, it's pretty weak by itself being a 1/3.

A normal 1/3 without Viper's abilities would appear very weak. But the Viper makes for an amazing blocker and ground pounder. Just the ability to nuke any attacker/blocker it engages with is huge. Also, slinging it up with a Rancor or Jitte makes him a force to be reckoned with.

[Phantom]

4. I have almost never had the problem with drawing 2 geddons. In fact, I find in a lot of games, i don't draw them at all. Personally I don't think geddon is THAT bad against Thresh, or Gobbos. All I have to do is gain board advantage, and then geddon. Unless my opponent is godly, and gets all the land draws he needs, I should be able to gain board control by the time he stabalizes. Maybe not?

The reason 'geddon is such crap against Goblins is because they rarely cast their spells thanks to Aether Vial and Lackey. I would def board out 'geddon against them because they recover from it even easier than you do.

Thresh deals with it very well because 95% of Thresh's spells cost 2 or less, and they run a ton of one mana dig spells. What this means is that if they are holding a land, draw a land, or bounce back a land with Daze, they will probably recover from 'geddon very easily.

Maybe 3 geddons is fine, I'd really have to test to know for sure but my general rule on this is that if there is a card I never want to draw two of in a deck with some draw, then I run two.


5.I do however like the idea of Viper. I knew the deck needed some sort of draw, but Hystrodon had the same problem as E Angel, and Top is too slow. I'm not sure about replacing hierarch but Viper is definately an idea. The only thing is, it's pretty weak by itself being a 1/3.

The only time you are going to find viper weak is in the combo matchup. Otherwise he is trading with the opponents biggest fattie, or simply winning you the game by attacking unopposed.



8.Ah Wasteland. Still on the fence on this one. I know it can screw an opponent at times, but I'm almost positive I will have more than one game where I'm going to wish it produced an actual color mana. I just don't see it being that useful without a way to abuse it with other land destruction point land destruction.

Well, most zoo decks tend to run it by itself in the hopes of extending the early game wherre they have the advantage. I've never been too big a fan of this either, but I like Wasteland with Glowrider and geddon. We can either make them overextend pre geddon, or make them drop a shit ton of lands in order to recover post geddon.

Sure, it sucks that it produces colorless, but your mana base is extremely solid considering you run allied colors while only needed double green and single white (Oh, and ignore the 4 foothills, 2 heath part of my mana base. What was I thinking? They should be reversed)



Grunt just seems like crap mainboard if I don't draw into a geddon. I just don't think it's justified main deck. Is Hailstorm really necessary? Does the Goblin matchup really need to be more refined than it already is?

Tough to say with Grunt. I haven't tested him yet, but everyone on these board seems to love him, even maindeck, so they are probably right. I would always have something to side in against Goblins unless the matchup was at least 75/25 in my favor.


I'm not sold on Glowrider maindeck either. I just don't see it being much of a factor except against combo making it seem really narrow to me. Perhaps I'm wrong?

I really think that Glowrider maindeck is what's going to make this deck Legacy viable. It makes most combo matchups winnable preboard and downright good postboard. It's going to smack Thresh right in the throat. Their mana base is not meant to handle 2 mana brainstorms and 3 mana predicts. The few control decks out there are going to need to get rid of rider ASAP (except maybe rifter) in order to cast their expensive sweepers. It even screws over Deadguy and Red Thresh by making their Hymns and Sinkholes outrageously espensive, and their rituals nealy useless.

Basically, your original build focused on winning the aggro mirror and relied on 'geddon to win the combo or control matchups. What I'm saying is that geddon is probably not enough. I think Geddon + Glowrider + Wasteland might be.

[Blair Phoenix]

Thank you for the insight. After reading your replies I pretty much agree with the majority of your choices, though I must still disagree about Grunt Mainboard. It's certainly a good card, but I think he is overlyhyped by the Legacy community, and is still largely untested, plus my personal opinion is the deck just can't support him enough to warrant him mainboard.

I'll post a new list shortly.

[Blair Phoenix]

Here's a rough list using the suggestions given

Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Plains

Creatures:
4 Llanowar elves
4 Glowrider
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Ohran Viper
4 Anurid Brushhopper
4 Loxodon Hierarch

Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Rancor
4 Umezawa's Jitte/Armadillo Cloak
3 Armageddon

Look good? Suggestions?

[Phantom]

Looks pretty damn good. I did some very light testing with your build and found the deck a little mana light. Also, in two of my games I drew 2 'geddons and it was just as bad as I thought it would be. I'll prob try -1 'geddon, -1 Heirarch (although I love pitching these to moxen) +2 Wooded Foothills.

[Blair Phoenix]

I have done my own light testing and have come to roughly the same conclusion. Going to be a bit more gradual, and just take out 1 geddon and replace with a land and test that. Guess I'll edit the first post as well to match the changes when I get the chance

[Blair Phoenix]

Looks pretty damn good. I did some very light testing with your build and found the deck a little mana light. Also, in two of my games I drew 2 'geddons and it was just as bad as I thought it would be. I'll prob try -1 'geddon, -1 Heirarch (although I love pitching these to moxen) +2 Wooded Foothills.Perhaps instead of Hierarch, take out the 4th Jitte?(I'm assuming you were using Jitte in testing)

First post updated by the way.

[Franz Ferdinand]

You've got 20 3cc+ creatures in there and very insufficient mana for it. I don't understand why you dropped Watchwolf instead of Glowrider, which is narrow and can be SBed. I think you need a lot more cheap, powerful stuff. Ohran Viper seems a poor choice, as well.

[Blair Phoenix]

You've got 20 3cc+ creatures in there and very insufficient mana for it. I don't understand why you dropped Watchwolf instead of Glowrider, which is narrow and can be SBed. I think you need a lot more cheap, powerful stuff. Ohran Viper seems a poor choice, as well.

Hm, so you preferred something like the old list then?

Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
8 forest
5 plains

Creatures:
4 Llanwar elves
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Watchwolf
4 Anurid Brushhopper
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Loxodon hierarch

Spells:
3 Armageddon
4 Rancor
4 Armadillo Cloak/Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to plowshares

I've already concluded that the old list can afford to use Wasteland, so that's pretty much in. That leaves us with Chrome Mox, Ohran Viper, and Glowrider vs Birds of Paradise, Watchwolf, and basic lands. Thoughts? Comments?

[umbowta]

Here's a rough list using the suggestions given

Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Plains

Creatures:
4 Llanowar elves
4 Glowrider
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Ohran Viper
4 Anurid Brushhopper
4 Loxodon Hierarch

Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Rancor
4 Umezawa's Jitte/Armadillo Cloak
3 Armageddon

Look good? Suggestions?

-1 Heirarch
-1 Brushhopper
-1 Jitte (Cloak should not even be considered in this list)
-1 Armageddon
-4 Glowrider (just move them to the board, they make half of your deck cost more...including geddon. This is awful in the main.)

+2 Wooded Foothills (it felt too light on land)
+2 Fyndhorn Elves (more 3 drops on turn 2 was nice, as was more lackey chumps)
+4 Watchwolf (whats the point of dropping Chrome mox T1 when your 2cc slot is empty)

[EDIT] - 1 Troll Ascetic
+ 1 more Fyndhorn Elf
Seriously, the Viper is the only card in the 3cc slot that deserves to be a 4-of. [End EDIT]

[Blair Phoenix]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, even though you all contradict each other:tongue:. As far as I can tell we all pretty much agree on this much:

Mana Base
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
4 Chrome Mox
3 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Plains

Spells:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Rancor
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Armageddon

Creatures:
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Ohran Viper

Troll Ascetic, Anurid Brushhopper, and Loxodon Hierarch all make it in some amount. The more questioned slots it seems are between Watchwolf, Fyndhorn Elves, and Glowrider. While 2 other people have posted against it, I do want to at least test Glowrider maindeck. Unfortunately I'm not getting to one of our weekly tournaments in a while(I'm going to Prerelease) so I myself am not going to have definitive results in a while. If any of you are willing to test you're respective take on the few remaining slots, however, by all means. Any and all imput is appreciated.

[Shugyosha]

I like the way this deck is developing but we should discuss the slots instead of just posting alot of +/- lists.

Speaking of the creatures only, I would suggest to pay attention to the mana curve. With Llanowar Elves and Chrome Mox we have quite a bit of accel so we can even cast a 4cc on turn 2 but the deck should be able to do something without the accel as Elves and Chrome Mox are far from invulnerable.

1cc
Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves: I think with 4 Mox and 4 Elves we have enough accel. Upping the Elves count would lead in a more reliable first turn elves drop but you don't want to draw these in the late game too often, even with Geddon.

2cc
Watchwolf: It needs 2 colors which might be a problem but otherwise he is a reliable unconditional beater.

Jotun Grunt: I think the Grunt deserves to be tested MD. Maybe 2-of. The advantage of having MD Graveyard hate is quite good in the current meta.

Silhana Ledgewalker: I tested him in ZillaStompy. This guy is quite nuts. He carries the victory home with jitte and rancor when all your other creatures are stalled.

3cc
Ohran Viper: The carddraw is desperately needed so as Blair wrote this should be an auto include.

Troll Ascetic: The only problem I see with this powerhouse is that we don't have the mana after a Geddon or not enough mana to regen and cast spells.

Brushhopper: The ability is far from relevant or broken so its just a 3/4 for 3cc. Kills Mongrel and survives bolt but I still see him as the weakest of the available 3cc creature.

Glowrider: Combo hate on a beatstick. Thats what I like the most about this deck. Its an aggro build that can support good MD hate against combo and control and isn't just helpless. With all the acceleration it shouldn't be problem that the spells cost one more, especially as 8 of them are 1cc. So OK, the Geddon costs 5 but its alot harder to recover from a Geddon with a Glowrider out. The only thing that bugs me, is that he is bad against Goblins but most of the creature which could be included can handle Goblins quite well.

4cc
Loxodon Hierarch: Makes the burn matchup better and helps against some forms of mass removal but...

Iwamori: A 5/5 Trample creature is a better finisher as a Hierarch. Ok you might say that Rancor gives trample but you can't count on it alone in a deck with no "reliable" carddraw. So more "trample slots" help to finish the enemy off fast. As he is legendary I would consider him as 2-of.


So if I counted it right we have 24 creature slots. What do you think is the right curve? Maybe:

4x 1cc
6x 2cc
10x 3cc
4x 4cc

So we have 4 Elves and 4 Vipers. Glowriders are also set for me.

[Blair Phoenix]

I too think Glowrider is going to be a major boon to this deck, which is why I plan on playtesting it as soon as I get the chance.

The only card choice you mentioned that I still don't think is viable is Jotun Grunt. I just don't think he's maindeck material. With both him, and Glowrider, it would dilute the deck too much into more of a "hate" deck and as I said earlier, we have no reliable way to feed him, and thus has no longevity, which was what was good with the original decklist's creature base.

I could see this deck running Iwamori(The REALLY old versian of this deck did)so probably our 4cc slot will be 2 Iwamori and 2 Hierarch, or 4 Hierarch depending on your meta.

That leaves us with 8 creatures slots left which I really want to have 4 being at the 2cc and 4 being at the 3 cc. I definately see this deck running Watchwolf over Ledgewalker at the 2cc slot, as Ledgewalker seems just too weak being a 1/1 by itself, making it rely on rancor and jitte too much, and I don't really ever see this deck being stalled out long enough where she would make a difference.

That pretty much leaves us with Troll vs Brushhopper at the 3cc slot. Opinions? I like the fact that Troll is untargetable and regens, but he CAN be a virtual mana sink. Ideas?

[SillyMetalGAT]

Troll. Troll with either Rancor or Jitte on him means GG a lot. Troll is your MVP whenever you play him. He is SO good. People dont really play a lot of mass removal (at least where I play) so this guy really shines. He is the man.

[Blair Phoenix]

Troll. Troll with either Rancor or Jitte on him means GG a lot. Troll is your MVP whenever you play him. He is SO good. People dont really play a lot of mass removal (at least where I play) so this guy really shines. He is the man.

Playing with troll, I don't think he is quite as good as you make him out to be, but he clearly is the better choice it seems. I'll wait for more imput as to not "jump the gun" this time before posting a new decklist lol.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Well, here let me actually explain my choice. See, we start with casting cost. You use elves, so its probably easier for you to attain GG rather than GW. Then, if you think about it, it costs 2 cards from your hand and you have to phase out Brushopper to avoid losing him. All it costs to keep Troll around is 1G. Thats pretty boss. If you slap Armadillo Cloak, Rancor, or Jitte on his ass, you will probably ride him to victory. It's kind of pointless to slap anything on a Brushopper.

[Phantom]

Glad to see some good stuff going on here.

@ Ledgewalker: No. I'm a fan of him as well, but I would only run it if I was running 12 pieces of pump. With 8, it's too easy to keep us off our pump. Also, with a Rancor on, he's not much more scary than a Watchwolf, who has the same cc. If we ever got to a point where we were running SoFI, I'd def try him.

@Iwami vs. Hierarch: Actually, I've dropped both in favor of Watchwolf. First, this deck runs rancor/jitte and has no need for an expensive finisher. A 5/2 trampling regenrater does the job even better anyway. Second, I don't always get to 4 mana quickly. Third, when I get to 4 mana, I want to 'geddon ASAP and getting back up to 4 mana is a bitch. In testing there were just too many times that Hierarch sat in my hand all game. Watchwolf is great b/c it can be dropped off mox first turn and it stops Goblins in their tracks.

@3cc creature slot: I love having four great creatures fill up this slot. We don't really need to cut any of them.


I'm going to try to get some serious preboard testing in this week, but it might not happen (damn college).

[Blair Phoenix]

Glad to see some good stuff going on here.

@ Ledgewalker: No. I'm a fan of him as well, but I would only run it if I was running 12 pieces of pump. With 8, it's too easy to keep us off our pump. Also, with a Rancor on, he's not much more scary than a Watchwolf, who has the same cc. If we ever got to a point where we were running SoFI, I'd def try him.

@Iwami vs. Hierarch: Actually, I've dropped both in favor of Watchwolf. First, this deck runs rancor/jitte and has no need for an expensive finisher. A 5/2 trampling regenrater does the job even better anyway. Second, I don't always get to 4 mana quickly. Third, when I get to 4 mana, I want to 'geddon ASAP and getting back up to 4 mana is a bitch. In testing there were just too many times that Hierarch sat in my hand all game. Watchwolf is great b/c it can be dropped off mox first turn and it stops Goblins in their tracks.

@3cc creature slot: I love having four great creatures fill up this slot. We don't really need to cut any of them.


I'm going to try to get some serious preboard testing in this week, but it might not happen (damn college).

Sounds solid. Taking out Hierarch does make me wince a bit, but it seems the logical conclusion. And Yes College sucks lol.

Edit: With replacing hierarchs with Watchwolves, should the amount of mana sources be lowered?

[Shugyosha]

@ Ledgewalker: No. I'm a fan of him as well, but I would only run it if I was running 12 pieces of pump. With 8, it's too easy to keep us off our pump. Also, with a Rancor on, he's not much more scary than a Watchwolf, who has the same cc. If we ever got to a point where we were running SoFI, I'd def try him.

RG Beatz also features 8 pump only and as a 2-of Ledgewalker proved to be a real killer. He seems really weak but he isn't if the other creatures we field a big enough which they are.
But Watchwolf > Ledgewalker you're right on that.



@Iwami vs. Hierarch: Actually, I've dropped both in favor of Watchwolf. First, this deck runs rancor/jitte and has no need for an expensive finisher. A 5/2 trampling regenrater does the job even better anyway.

As I said Hierarch is also 2 more lifegain slots and his ability can be quite devastating against a Deed/Disk/Vengeance supposed he can cast it. Iwamori is extremely hard to deal with if there is no Swords around. He is trample slot 5 and 6.



Second, I don't always get to 4 mana quickly. Third, when I get to 4 mana, I want to 'geddon ASAP and getting back up to 4 mana is a bitch. In testing there were just too many times that Hierarch sat in my hand all game. Watchwolf is great b/c it can be dropped off mox first turn and it stops Goblins in their tracks.

I think the deck should manage to get 4 mana in turn 4 on a reliable basis.

But if its really the plan to play a Geddon when hitting 4 mana the list will need 3-4 Geddons to constantly blow up the lands. I see Geddon more like a card that can help you but is usually not a must play. There may be also alot of situations where a 4cc creature seems better than a Geddon. You already mentioned the "Goblin problem"...
Another thing is that when you play a Glowrider when hitting 3 mana you will need 5 mana for the Geddon so you are free to cast a 4cc creature when reaching 4 mana first.

You also contradict yourself when saying the Geddon should come ASAP and then a rancored Troll rides for victory. If you are lucky enough to have Elf and Mox out (and not already blown up) you can regenerate him, otherwise he's not half as good and anyways horribly bad against Sliver Knight.

So to get the plan in action you need Troll, Rancor, Elf, Mox, imprinted card, geddon and 2 land which would be really nice but not the case that often.


Sooo... what seems to be set so far:

1cc
4x Elves

2cc
4x Watchwolf

3cc
4x Viper
4x Glowrider

Thats 16. Depending on the rest of the deck we have another 6-8 slots for creatures.

First of all Troll IS extremely good but is it true with Geddon? Maybe as 2 or 3-of. I think that we have alot of quite good cards so why only playsets?

Then I think the 2cc slot needs another two. Either Grunt or Ledgewalker. Yes Grunt is not reliable but its a freaking 4/4 for 2. You usually can support it for two attacks and he is absolutely expendable.
Another man which came into my mind again was Kavu Titan. But he hasn't much of a Titan without Kicker.

For the 4cc slot we can try any combination of 2-4 Hierarch and/or Iwamori.


I guess we need more testing but my time is also a bit sparse "until end of month".

[Blair Phoenix]

Been a bit wishy washy recently, and I apologize. I am new to the forums here and still surprised that people actually like the deck to an extent(though it's quite a bit different from my original build)

After some thinking and some goldfishing, I came to this for the creature base:

4 Elves
4 Watchwolf
4 Anurid Brushhopper
4 Ohran Viper
4 Glowrider
2/4 Loxodon Hierarch/2 Iwamori

Goldfishing showed(me at least) That we CAN usually cast Hierarch, and it's my belief that he is too important against the goblin matchup to drop. I agree with Phantom though that Ledgewalker isn't right for this deck, and I still don't think Grunt is main deck material either.

So why drop Troll over brushhopper? My reasoning is that the only reason Troll made main deck in my original build was because he owned with Armadillo Cloak on him. With the replacement of cloak with Jitte, which lives regardless what happens to the creature, Troll becomes less important for his untargetability. Also while we can reliably hit 4 mana for hierarch, we usually don't get much past that,which really makes it difficult to both regen Troll AND play more threats which really slows the deck.

Also while Hopper may more easily be killed, the fact is, with leftover moxes and jittes, we should have more than enough cards to pitch to it to save it if need be.

[Phantom]

Got to do some light preboard testing tonight. Went about 60/40 with both Goblins and thresh. I wasn't particularly pleased with either result but it's a starting point. Here's my thoughts:

1) Troll Ascetic is the best creature in the deck and Anurid Brushopper is the second best. They are both auto 4 ofs. Viper won me a few games and only comes in third because it can be plowed.

2) I tested with 2 Hierarchs, and found them to be pretty bad. Goblins was almost always able to deny 4 mana with either waste or port (or both) and even when I was able to cast it, the 4 life was never the difference between life and death. I had similar results with him against Thresh. Maybe others are having different results with him, but I'd rather replace him with Watchwolves.

3) In 20 games I cast 'geddon a total of 2 times, and i lost one of those games. The card is just dead against too many decks, and is dead in every situation where I don't have board advantage. I think I'm moving it to the board as the deck does just fine without it.

4) The deck CAN support a pair of Jotun Grunts, but Watchwolf is near as good, and can be dropped turn 2, so Grunt might go to the board.

5) There were def times when I could have used more creature removal.

6) Llanowar Elves kind of suck against Goblins and Chrome Mox kind of sucks against Thresh. Not much we can do about that I guess.

7) Jury's still out on Glowrider. He didn't kill me vs. Goblins (which I was worried about) b/c he simply chumped the first available attacker. He won me a game against Thresh, and was great along with Wasteland at slowing down their cantrip engine.

8) Can't decide if 3 of 4 is the right number of Jitte's. Dropping extra's to Brushopper is nice so I'll prob keep it at 4.

[Blair Phoenix]

Ahh! Actual results. Much better than going on what SHOULD work:laugh:.

1: If we take out Armageddon, I think Troll becomes a much more valid choice. Otherwise, I still go by what I said earlier in that we can't support him well enough

2.Results are good. Still not positive though. Guess I'll have to test it more myself.

3. Dropping Geddon? Interesting, but I can see where you're coming from. Does worsen the solidarity matchup slightly though(I know not by much)

4.Agreed mostly. Am surprised we can support grunt, but Yeah, I think he's mostly a board card.

5. Hard to do. The colors we're in gives us crap for creature removal. Seriously, the next good removal I can think of is Faith's Fetters, which is overly costly.

6. Yeah, not much we can do about that at all.

7. *nods* Still testing at this point is fine.

8. If we do drop Geddon, 4 jittes sounds optimal

[Amoeba-]

Have you considered Iwamori, the Open Fist?

[Blair Phoenix]

Yes he's been considered. Reading the 2 pages of the thread is savage tech.

btw, here's what my deck would look like without geddon:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept heath
4 wasteland
5 forest
4 plains

4 elves
4 watchwolf
4 Troll ascetic
4 Ohran Viper
4 anurid brushhopper
4 elvish spirit guide
3 Glowrider

4 STP
4 Jitte
4 Rancor

Without geddon, mox isn't as useful, and ESG becomes more useful. I had a lot more written, but I accidently erased it(D:) so I'm making this short due to lack of patience. Sorry >_<

[Blair Phoenix]

Been busy and haven't been able to test at all. Anyone else have results or ideas?

[Phantom]

Did a little testing with a build close to that last one and the Thresh matchup stayed about the same. ESG and Llanowar Elves didn't go together very well. There are a couple things I want to try out:

1) The Elves and ESGs aren't working together so well. When I draw one of each, the ESG just sits in my hand since I can drop a 3cc creature on turn 2 without it's help. -4 Elves. +4 Moxes. I know what this will do. It will greatly increase the Goblins matchup (first turn Trolls = gg) while slightly hurting the Thresh matchup. Still, I want to see the numbers myself.

2) Creatures I've been thinking about testing: Hidden Gibbons, Syshroud Elite, Treetop Village (as a 2 of).

3) R+D have given us some nice gifts. One vs. Solidarity and one vs. IGGy.

Angel's Grace W
Instant
Split Second
You can't lose the game this turn, and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less then one reduces it to one instead.

Children of Korlis w
Creature - Human Rebel Cleric C
Sacrifice Children of Korlis: You gain life equal to the life you've lost this turn.
1/1

Not sure if either of them is runnable, but at least they are there.

4) I'd like to run another component of Mana denial. Glowrider (especially in multiples) + Waste has been nice, but not fantastic. I wish there was a decent W/G card that fit like Stifle, Shadow of a Doubt, or Sinkhole. Hmmm.

5) This deck needs a good sideboard answer to Needle, which can shut down a lot of what we do.

[Alfred]

Did a little testing with a build close to that last one and the Thresh matchup stayed about the same. ESG and Llanowar Elves didn't go together very well. There are a couple things I want to try out:

1) The Elves and ESGs aren't working together so well. When I draw one of each, the ESG just sits in my hand since I can drop a 3cc creature on turn 2 without it's help. -4 Elves. +4 Moxes. I know what this will do. It will greatly increase the Goblins matchup (first turn Trolls = gg) while slightly hurting the Thresh matchup. Still, I want to see the numbers myself.

2) Creatures I've been thinking about testing: Hidden Gibbons, Syshroud Elite, Treetop Village (as a 2 of).

3) R+D have given us some nice gifts. One vs. Solidarity and one vs. IGGy.

Angel's Grace W
Instant
Split Second
You can't lose the game this turn, and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less then one reduces it to one instead.

Children of Korlis w
Creature - Human Rebel Cleric C
Sacrifice Children of Korlis: You gain life equal to the life you've lost this turn.
1/1

Not sure if either of them is runnable, but at least they are there.

4) I'd like to run another component of Mana denial. Glowrider (especially in multiples) + Waste has been nice, but not fantastic. I wish there was a decent W/G card that fit like Stifle, Shadow of a Doubt, or Sinkhole. Hmmm.

5) This deck needs a good sideboard answer to Needle, which can shut down a lot of what we do.


Pithing Needle is mana denial, also good against everything and cheap as shit. I would try it out. You could also try something like Ice Storm, or something of that nature. But it seems a little expensive. If you're looking for something like Shadow of Doubt for Fetchlands, Bind seems like it could be a cheap way of disrupting an opponent's mana, while drawing a card.

As for something to kill Needle, I was thinking Sex Monkey or Viridian Shaman, but you do run Jitte, so those would probably not be the best choices. I would suggest something like Disenchant or Naturalize, which has versatility on it's side as well, allowing you to deal with Humility, et al.

Treetop Village sounds really good actually, and 2 sounds like the best number.

[Phantom]

Pithing Needle is mana denial, also good against everything and cheap as shit. I would try it out. You could also try something like Ice Storm, or something of that nature. But it seems a little expensive. If you're looking for something like Shadow of Doubt for Fetchlands, Bind seems like it could be a cheap way of disrupting an opponent's mana, while drawing a card.

As for something to kill Needle, I was thinking Sex Monkey or Viridian Shaman, but you do run Jitte, so those would probably not be the best choices. I would suggest something like Disenchant or Naturalize, which has versatility on it's side as well, allowing you to deal with Humility, et al.

Treetop Village sounds really good actually, and 2 sounds like the best number.

Needle will def come in out of the board and try to shut down some fetches, but it's pretty useless game one, and we run Windswept Heath, so we can't name one of the most popular fetches.

Bind def deserves some testing as maybe a 2 of. It's nice with our accel but there are some few decks that run few or no activated abilities. Still, I like the idea.

Sadly, Naturalize does seem like the best option although actually the split second version will probably replace it since it smacks things like deed in the mouth. Too bad Stomphowler is out of our curve.

I had a lot of success w/ Village in my DarkViper deck as it goes so well w/ Rancor and Jitte, so I think it will go well.

The sideboard is going to get awfully tight after TS.

[NoGameShow]

Pithing Needle is mana denial, also good against everything and cheap as shit. I would try it out. You could also try something like Ice Storm, or something of that nature. But it seems a little expensive. If you're looking for something like Shadow of Doubt for Fetchlands, Bind seems like it could be a cheap way of disrupting an opponent's mana, while drawing a card.

As for something to kill Needle, I was thinking Sex Monkey or Viridian Shaman, but you do run Jitte, so those would probably not be the best choices. I would suggest something like Disenchant or Naturalize, which has versatility on it's side as well, allowing you to deal with Humility, et al.

Treetop Village sounds really good actually, and 2 sounds like the best number.




If you want a disenchant creature check out Viridian Zealot he hits both when you want it to unlike sex monkey that has to do it when it comes into play.

[Alfred]

Needle will def come in out of the board and try to shut down some fetches, but it's pretty useless game one, and we run Windswept Heath, so we can't name one of the most popular fetches.

Bind def deserves some testing as maybe a 2 of. It's nice with our accel but there are some few decks that run few or no activated abilities. Still, I like the idea.

Sadly, Naturalize does seem like the best option although actually the split second version will probably replace it since it smacks things like deed in the mouth. Too bad Stomphowler is out of our curve.

I had a lot of success w/ Village in my DarkViper deck as it goes so well w/ Rancor and Jitte, so I think it will go well.

The sideboard is going to get awfully tight after TS.

I think Needle should be maindeck, because essentially every single deck has something that Needle can name, and not just in a land destruction capability. I was running Bind in it's place, but after testing against a few decks, I found that Needle is better in almost every circumstance. It's a great card, and probably should be put maindeck.

Viper seems to me to be the worst card in the deck IMO, but I imagine it's a bit better against Threshold than against other decks. It's even worse against combo, because it doesn't win the game fast enough.

Oh, and yeah, Stomphowler would be great, but as you said, it doesn't come out fast enough to matter.

[Phantom]

I think Needle should be maindeck, because essentially every single deck has something that Needle can name, and not just in a land destruction capability. I was running Bind in it's place, but after testing against a few decks, I found that Needle is better in almost every circumstance. It's a great card, and probably should be put maindeck.

Viper seems to me to be the worst card in the deck IMO, but I imagine it's a bit better against Threshold than against other decks. It's even worse against combo, because it doesn't win the game fast enough.

Oh, and yeah, Stomphowler would be great, but as you said, it doesn't come out fast enough to matter.

Well, this is sort of a personal choice, but I've always been a fan of bringing needle out of the board (except when it's a tutorable one-of). There are just too many needle targets which have to be named BEFORE they are dropped (Survival, Wasteland, Fetches, SoFI, Deed sometimes, etc).

Viper is a beast in both the Thresh and Goblin matchup. He kills every Goblin except Piledriver and still lives. Thresh relies on card advantage and powerful creatures, both of which Viper turn the tables on. He seems bad against combo, but aside from Glowrider, he's probably our BEST creature against combo since he will draw us into Glowriders and pump since none of our creatures are really good clocks.

Here's the new list I'll test:

//Mana
4 Savannah
4 Windswept heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Treetop Villages
4 Mox

//Beats
4 Watchwolf
4 Troll ascetic
4 Ohran Viper
4 Anurid brushhopper
4 Elvish spirit guide
4 Glowrider

//Spells
4 STP
3 Jitte
4 Rancor

If this turns the Goblin matchup to 70/30 then I might test Hidden Gibbons in the Watchwolf spot. Hell, most Goblin decks run instants now too.

[Blair Phoenix]

Well, this is sort of a personal choice, but I've always been a fan of bringing needle out of the board (except when it's a tutorable one-of). There are just too many needle targets which have to be named BEFORE they are dropped (Survival, Wasteland, Fetches, SoFI, Deed sometimes, etc).

Viper is a beast in both the Thresh and Goblin matchup. He kills every Goblin except Piledriver and still lives. Thresh relies on card advantage and powerful creatures, both of which Viper turn the tables on. He seems bad against combo, but aside from Glowrider, he's probably our BEST creature against combo since he will draw us into Glowriders and pump since none of our creatures are really good clocks.

Here's the new list I'll test:

//Mana
4 Savannah
4 Windswept heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Treetop Villages
4 Mox

//Beats
4 Watchwolf
4 Troll ascetic
4 Ohran Viper
4 Anurid brushhopper
4 Elvish spirit guide
4 Glowrider

//Spells
4 STP
3 Jitte
4 Rancor

If this turns the Goblin matchup to 70/30 then I might test Hidden Gibbons in the Watchwolf spot. Hell, most Goblin decks run instants now too.
Lots been going on while I've been away. Love the current list, though I'm not postitive of the effectiveness of treetop village just yet. I have been REALLY busy with college, and haven't been able to playtest at all, which really sucks.Thanks for all the support and advice thus far everyone.

[Shugyosha]

I'm glad this thread is still on course.

I really like the new decklist Phantom. Mox and ESG can do crazy things. With this accel the Treetops are a good addition.

I wouldn't include Bind or Needle maindeck as it slows down the beatdown plan. The Split Second Naturalize shouldn't be included either unless this deck faces severe problems against some decks. A Deed is no autoloss in game one and in games 2&3 needle deals it.

Angel's Grace is a damn bomb!!! Think of it against Goblins. He makes an alpha strike with Pyromancer out and you just say Angel's Grace...
Sure you only have one life thereafter but it will buy you at least one turn to stomp him or get some jitte counters.
SB 4-of

[Blair Phoenix]

Prerelease was a blast. Won 4-0 and got 13 packs on Sunday, so i'm happy with that. Just got my playset of Glowriders when I got back, so I'll definately be doing more testing with the above list soon.

[Mirrislegend]

I just took the latest list and started playing it online. I must say that I LOVE it. It runs very smoothly, and appears to have a good game against a lot of the field.

My only concern ATM: how does it do against the new generation of aggro decks? I'm specifically referring to the R/G Beatz deck that did well at TML Open. I picked up that list and ran with it as well, and it can pull off ridiculous wins via burn: what does this deck have vs that?

[Blair Phoenix]

I just took the latest list and started playing it online. I must say that I LOVE it. It runs very smoothly, and appears to have a good game against a lot of the field.

My only concern ATM: how does it do against the new generation of aggro decks? I'm specifically referring to the R/G Beatz deck that did well at TML Open. I picked up that list and ran with it as well, and it can pull off ridiculous wins via burn: what does this deck have vs that?

Back when I ran Armadillo Cloak, This matchup was fairly even, though favored for this deck. With replacing cloak with jitte, we may have dampered our matchup against them(Note: We can still trade Jittes with them though, which helps, as I always found jitte a huge problem in testing with very early incarnations of this deck). If it really becomes a problem though, I could easily see sideboarding Silver Knight an option, which also helps our goblin match as well. At any rate, more testing has to be done.

[Blair Phoenix]

Been testing when I can and the decklist looks good. Any other thoughts?

[Alfred]

Back when I ran Armadillo Cloak, This matchup was fairly even, though favored for this deck. With replacing cloak with jitte, we may have dampered our matchup against them(Note: We can still trade Jittes with them though, which helps, as I always found jitte a huge problem in testing with very early incarnations of this deck). If it really becomes a problem though, I could easily see sideboarding Silver Knight an option, which also helps our goblin match as well. At any rate, more testing has to be done.

Really? Isn't Jitte, like, the nut high in any aggro matchup? I would imagine that it would improve aggro matchups rather than denigrate them.

[Blair Phoenix]

Really? Isn't Jitte, like, the nut high in any aggro matchup? I would imagine that it would improve aggro matchups rather than denigrate them.
Yes but most R/G Beats decks also run Jitte, which can definately be problematic at times, as if we can't keep an active jitte on the board to gain some life, the burn they have can really dampen the match.

[Phantom]

Did a bit of testing with the new build. Rocked Goblins about 70/30 preboard. It's all about accel vs. them. If I dropped a creature turn one or two, I usually won the game. If I didn't, I lost. Simple as that. The matchup isn't quite good enough that I wouldn't want a few board cards against them, but it's def positive.

Next I'll test Thresh and see if we can't get that better than 50/50.

[Blair Phoenix]

Did a bit of testing with the new build. Rocked Goblins about 70/30 preboard. It's all about accel vs. them. If I dropped a creature turn one or two, I usually won the game. If I didn't, I lost. Simple as that. The matchup isn't quite good enough that I wouldn't want a few board cards against them, but it's def positive.

Next I'll test Thresh and see if we can't get that better than 50/50.Good to hear. Glad someone isn't letting college bog them down enough to stop them from playtesting >_<.

[Anarky87]

This thread has actually sort of sparked my interest, I might jump on board and give the current list a go and see if I can think of anything. Looks pretty solid as it is though, nice job.

[Blair Phoenix]

This thread has actually sort of sparked my interest, I might jump on board and give the current list a go and see if I can think of anything. Looks pretty solid as it is though, nice job.
Much appreciated if you do.

[Blair Phoenix]

Going to start playtesting the deck myself a lot more now that a lot is off my plate. I'll hopefully get some results of my own by tonight or tomorrow. Cheers.

[valor]

I used to play a deck a lot like this, like WAYYY back when Mirrodin first came out, as a semi-casual T1 deck. It was really fun to play, so I'll be glad to help wtih testing too.

A few things that I remember:
Trolls are REALLY good, Jitte wasnt aroudn back then but Rancored or Jitted trolls will win the game for you, almost certain.
I used to run something pretty crappy, i think Noble Panther lol in what should have been the watchwolf slot, that thing seems pretty awesome to me.
Never liked the Brushhopper, people will swear by it but I dont really know if its worth it, even if you save it you have to re-Rancor/Jitte it. I dont see it being worth such an investment, compared to trolls.
I would run Ohran Viper without question. Seems so good against so many common decks.
People used to love Ravenous Baloth, and Hierarch seems even better for this deck, I could imagine he'd be really useful. Hes basically a Baloth with an extra Sac ability, and he's pretty big too.
Jotun Grunt seems to be useful in just about every white deck with creatures in this format, it shuts down so much.
Glowrider seems like a great answer to some bad matchups (combo), and also thresh, but is probably best in the board as hes not that efficient for you if you dont need it to win. something else thats cool against combo is True Believer but the double white might be an issue? I havent tested the mana base enough to know. With Wastes I'm assuming its harder to get.
To get some help against Goblins, Tivadars Crusdae might help, but again it has a double white cost. Also, Mother of Runes is pretty cool to block Piledrivers, but again might not find its place here.
I would run needle because like Grunt, it hits 99% of decks really hard.
I also like the idea of Skyshroud Elite, although the lack of synergy with Geddon is there, I dont see them conflicting too much.
There is a really cool land that works well with Geddon: Flagsonte of Trokair from TS, Geddon with it and a fetch out and your 2 land up as well as moxes/elves you may have.
There are a LOT of 3 drops so i do like the mox/elves setup, theres a lot of things to pitch to the mox here (hierarch seems pretty cool) and that whole strategy works awesome with Geddon. The good thing about the number of 3 drops is that since watchwolf is probably the only 2 drop, a sick opening could look like this: Mox to Hierarch, Elves/Birds, Treetop Village
Turn 2, Heath/Savannah, Troll. Which is why I will usually say no to village but here it is pretty good considering the curve.
I going to do some more testing with this to back up my statements but this is my initial view on things with my experiecne with the deck back in the day.

[Blair Phoenix]

I used to play a deck a lot like this, like WAYYY back when Mirrodin first came out, as a semi-casual T1 deck. It was really fun to play, so I'll be glad to help wtih testing too.

A few things that I remember:
Trolls are REALLY good, Jitte wasnt aroudn back then but Rancored or Jitted trolls will win the game for you, almost certain.
I used to run something pretty crappy, i think Noble Panther lol in what should have been the watchwolf slot, that thing seems pretty awesome to me.
Never liked the Brushhopper, people will swear by it but I dont really know if its worth it, even if you save it you have to re-Rancor/Jitte it. I dont see it being worth such an investment, compared to trolls.
I would run Ohran Viper without question. Seems so good against so many common decks.
People used to love Ravenous Baloth, and Hierarch seems even better for this deck, I could imagine he'd be really useful. Hes basically a Baloth with an extra Sac ability, and he's pretty big too.
Jotun Grunt seems to be useful in just about every white deck with creatures in this format, it shuts down so much.
Glowrider seems like a great answer to some bad matchups (combo), and also thresh, but is probably best in the board as hes not that efficient for you if you dont need it to win. something else thats cool against combo is True Believer but the double white might be an issue? I havent tested the mana base enough to know. With Wastes I'm assuming its harder to get.
To get some help against Goblins, Tivadars Crusdae might help, but again it has a double white cost. Also, Mother of Runes is pretty cool to block Piledrivers, but again might not find its place here.
I would run needle because like Grunt, it hits 99% of decks really hard.
I also like the idea of Skyshroud Elite, although the lack of synergy with Geddon is there, I dont see them conflicting too much.
There is a really cool land that works well with Geddon: Flagsonte of Trokair from TS, Geddon with it and a fetch out and your 2 land up as well as moxes/elves you may have.
There are a LOT of 3 drops so i do like the mox/elves setup, theres a lot of things to pitch to the mox here (hierarch seems pretty cool) and that whole strategy works awesome with Geddon. The good thing about the number of 3 drops is that since watchwolf is probably the only 2 drop, a sick opening could look like this: Mox to Hierarch, Elves/Birds, Treetop Village
Turn 2, Heath/Savannah, Troll. Which is why I will usually say no to village but here it is pretty good considering the curve.
I going to do some more testing with this to back up my statements but this is my initial view on things with my experiecne with the deck back in the day.
Anurid Brushhopper is excellent as it can tangle with a mongoose and live. Double white is indeed hard to get to, which is why we don't run it. Mother of runes is a bit too protective. The deck altogether is supposed to be aggro. Was originally running hierarch, but it was deemed too expensive for the current build.

[umbowta]

Anurid Brushhopper is excellent as it can tangle with a mongoose and live. Double white is indeed hard to get to, which is why we don't run it.
What?

When did WotC change Brushoppers casting cost from 1GW to GWW?

Oh. They didn't.

[Phantom]

What?

When did WotC change Brushoppers casting cost from 1GW to GWW?

Oh. They didn't.

If you read the post he was responding to, it's fairly clear he was talking about Tiv's Crusade, especially since this deck DOES run Brushoppers.

[nitewolf9]

This would be pretty interesting:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept heath
2 Secluded Steppe
4 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Treetop Villages
4 mox diamond

1 Valor
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Troll ascetic
4 Ohran Viper
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Glowrider

4 life from the loam

4 Swords
3 Jitte
4 Rancor/moldervine cloak

It adds cycling lands and life from the loam to give the deck somewhat of a draw engine, and replaces anurid brushhopper with wild mongrel (who can get pretty crazy with LftL). Mox diamond also replaces chrome mox so that you can recover from the card disadvantage more easily (LftL once again). Oh and the added immunity to your mana base is pretty solid as well.

If you want to really smash other aggro decks into the ground, how about giving all of your creatures first strike? Valor seems like it could be good in the format.

Jotun grunt is fed by the loam engine, and obviously kicks threshold right in the balls. Plus he's a 4/4 for 2, instead of a 3/3 for 2 which he replaces (watchwolf).

Perhaps moldervine cloak would be better in this build than rancor...perhaps 3 cloak and an additional valor? Not sure, but it could be good (maybe even 3 rancor and one cloak).

The board could have 4x armageddon for control and some combo, which is pretty damn good when you have life from the loam. The rest would be hating on combo probably.

What do you guys think? Just a thought.

[Blair Phoenix]

If you read the post he was responding to, it's fairly clear he was talking about Tiv's Crusade, especially since this deck DOES run Brushoppers.
Yes I did mean Tiv's Crusade.sorry about that. Was rushing when I posted. Sorry about that

[umbowta]

If you read the post he was responding to, it's fairly clear he was talking about Tiv's Crusade, especially since this deck DOES run Brushoppers.Thank you for pointing that out for all of those who failed to see the humor in my pointedly sarcastic remarks. The way Blair's sentences came together was just begging to confuse.

[edit]
Was rushing when I posted. Sorry about that No need to apologize. It gave me an opportunity for a little humor.

[Blair Phoenix]

Thank you for pointing that out for all of those who failed to see the humor in my pointedly sarcastic remarks. The way Blair's sentences came together was just begging to confuse.

[edit] No need to apologize. It gave me an opportunity for a little humor.

ok then lol. Got some testing in, but I got dumped with a lot of HW as well, so not as much as I'd like:mad: . Stupid college. Well at any rate, looks like I may be a bit late with results.

[valor]

This would be pretty interesting:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept heath
2 Secluded Steppe
4 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Treetop Villages
4 mox diamond

1 Valor
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Troll ascetic
4 Ohran Viper
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Glowrider

4 life from the loam

4 Swords
3 Jitte
4 Rancor/moldervine cloak

It adds cycling lands and life from the loam to give the deck somewhat of a draw engine, and replaces anurid brushhopper with wild mongrel (who can get pretty crazy with LftL). Mox diamond also replaces chrome mox so that you can recover from the card disadvantage more easily (LftL once again). Oh and the added immunity to your mana base is pretty solid as well.

If you want to really smash other aggro decks into the ground, how about giving all of your creatures first strike? Valor seems like it could be good in the format.

Jotun grunt is fed by the loam engine, and obviously kicks threshold right in the balls. Plus he's a 4/4 for 2, instead of a 3/3 for 2 which he replaces (watchwolf).

Perhaps moldervine cloak would be better in this build than rancor...perhaps 3 cloak and an additional valor? Not sure, but it could be good (maybe even 3 rancor and one cloak).

The board could have 4x armageddon for control and some combo, which is pretty damn good when you have life from the loam. The rest would be hating on combo probably.

What do you guys think? Just a thought.


Hm this is a really interesting idea, a completely different direction for the deck to go in. Seems like there are so many Loam decks floating around, and while I'm not sure this is the right place for it, its worth considering. It does leave a good portion of the creature base intact, and runs Jotun Grunt which makes me love it. I would probably drop a Wasteland as your bound to see them with only 3 in the deck and there are some mana issues (double green on Troll, Viper, need a plains for Valor). Also, does Genesis work, considering your discarding to Mongrel/Dredging an awful lot into the yard. Rancor>Cloak in pretty much every situation, imo. I would run Glowriders boarded for the reasons I suggested previously, and this deck is lacking on the turn 1 drops that make the curve work (Birds/Elves) which are probably a hell of a lot more useful game 1. Grunt should hold thresh for the first game anyway, then board out the StP's for them since theyre to fix up the combo matchup. I dont know how the tempo works out with all the comes in tapped lands, although obviously cycle lands are for loam, sometimes you will need to play one, which makes me wonder about Treetop Villages, but I could be wrong. Just seems like turn 1 is dead without a Mox, and also without a Mox you dont get your 3 mana guys out turn 2 which is key here. It seems to be at least worth a test imo.
The only downsides I see are the moving of Geddon to board, I love that card and this deck makes it work, especially with Moxen, Loam and potentially Elves/Birds. What I see being an issue is that you lose your tempo and effeciency that allows you to win in favor of a cool draw engine. Perhaps taking out the Ohran Viper, since it is outclasses draw wise with this engine, would help with this?
Worth a test imo.

[Blair Phoenix]

Reviving my Dead thread...fun fun. At any rate, I've been playing the deck for a while and have come to conclude that Glowrider isn't worth it main deck. His ability is great, but the problem is that he's on a weak 2/1 body, and nearly everyone runs removal thanks to goblins. Also, the big combos in my area now a days are usually loam based ones, and I just never found Glowrider to be all that useful against them

This is my current decklist:

Mana:
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Chrome Mox
6 forest
3 plains

Creatures:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Watchwolf
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Anurid Brushhopper
4 Ohran Viper

Other:
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Rancor
4 Armadillo Cloak
3 jitte

Wasteland just doesn't seem useful anymore as the only land kill, and as it dies too, it slows my land developement also. Also, my meta doesn't really seem all that hurt by them atm. Not to mention I don't own them still *sigh*

Treetop Village in this build is just a tad slow, and I just never found it that useful, not to mention the few times it got wasted really just sucked.

Armageddon is just filler at the moment, and I plan on taking out a plains and adding 3 of something in....just don't know what lol.

I've fooled around with Silhana Ledgewalker, and though I at first discarded the idea, I've really come to like the little 1/1. The Evasion, plus untargetability with the pump seemed good, it fit the mana curve, and I wanted to try out Worship in the deck. While I've discarded Worship, I found I really liked Ledgewalker and kept it in, and so far haven't had any regrets.

Armadillo Cloak-Okay, I'll admit, I still don't own Jittes. I've borrowed them, I've played them, and I know they are godly. With Ledgewalker in the deck though, Cloak isn't nearly as bad, and I like the fact that I can just slap it on something and get immediate effects, while I need to play, equip, and get one swing in before Jitte does anything for me at all. Also, I like the fact that I can play more than one cloak, and the fact that cloak can't get needled.


Opinions on the changes? Comments? Yeah I know I went more back to aggro, but I just wasn't finding the mana denial theme to be good enough.