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Melman
09-18-2006, 10:07 AM
Update: Decided to go with the blue for a time being.

I know that there was already a thread about this deck, but i feel that it was taken in the wrong direction and that this deck actually deserves a serious look at without saying "Forget this deck play that" =P. I'll explain why later.

First, the starting out decklist.

//Land
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp
3 Underground Sea


//0cc
4 Lotus Petal

//1cc
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Cabal therapy
4 Mystical tutor


//2cc
4 Shallow Grave
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Tainted Pact
3 Lim-Dul's vault

//3cc
4 Buried Alive
4 Corpse Dance

//TheFat
2 Sutured Ghoul
2 Krosan Cloudscraper
2 Phyrexian Dreadnaught

------------------------------------

Card Choices:

8 fetch: Thinning the deck is key for combo

Swamp: Duh

Lotus Petal: Speed in reanimator? Why not? This > Chrome mox imo because the mox is almost always removing a card that I could have used, and you rarely need the mana you get from it more than once anyways

Dark Ritual: Again, duh

Duress/Therapy: You need some disruption. There is that one card that really owns you (Swords) that you need to get rid of, so you play alot of discard.

vault: You need the two combo peices, and so you get them with this card. You can get both at once if you really need it as well.

Shallow Grave: Part of the Combo

Cabal Ritual: See Dark rit. Its not quite as good, but its perfect after a buried alive, when you will most likely have threshold, and want to throw in that extra discard before you swing, or whatever.

Mystical Tutor: Awesome card for the deck, period. One mana, grab the second combo peice? Yes please.

Buried Alive: Combo

Corpse Dance: See Shallow Grave

Fatties: I like playing 2/4 because drawing a ghoul sucks, and removing too many combo peices with spoils/pact sucks. Also, you can go off twice, which happens more than you would think, if need be. When they swords you for 24 life, you have plenty of time to find the cards you need again.

-----------------------
Card for consideration
-------------------------

Brainstorm - Good synergy with tutor, can hide stuff in case of a duress/therapy at you.

Doomsday - This is the real card Im not sure about. Its 3 cc, which is more expensive then any of the cards I would cut for it (spoils/pact). It makes you lose alot of life, which most of the time wont matter, but its something to remember. It sucks butt against solidarity. And lastly, you play this, you arent going off again >_<. Also, you almost never dont have a single card for the combo, so this card is kinda overkill if you're just looking for one more card.

Infernal tutor - Another card I was looking at. The main problem with this guy is that unless you are Hellbent-ing it, it doesnt do much for you. And in order to hellbent, you cant look for the buried alive and be holding the reanimation; but if you have the buried and not the reanimate, its perfect. Or if you have nothing, its good too.

Chrome mox: Its extra accel, but as explained under the petal explanation, It has its downsides. But on the other hand, its still mana. Im thinking if you want more accel make the cabal rit a 4-of before you start adding these guys, but again, not sure.

Evening out the dreadnaught-cloudscrapers: I do the configuration as I do for a number of reasons. First, it sucks to draw cloudscrapers, and dreadnaughts are fine to draw. Just play them before the buried alive, they die, and its another dude to pitch to the ghoul when you get him if you need it. But the Krosan is bigger, so I like playing 2 of these dudes so that when you buried you can find both of them. I dont really pay attention to the morph though... if you are playing this card morphed, you already lost, so dont worry about it. same with the fact that it cant be brought back on its own... if you arent bringing back the ghoul, you are not bringing back anything. But If you think that one is better than the other, feel free to explain.

Any other card I may be missing - Feel free to explain why I should play it =P.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Test results - I havent tested it that thoroughly, but I have done some, and its pretty good. Also, see my second post for more details.

Thresh - not so hot, but not as bad as people like to think. Id say its like 40-60 or so. you play 8 discard, and all you need to get rid of is their one daze or FoW they might be holding. So just play a little slower until you get the discard, or just set it up so you can go off twice in rapid succession.

Iggy - Its a race. What I saw was that I generally can combo faster than them, but if they are smart/have a good hand, they can just combo for a storm count of like 5 and then you have to go off again. This only happened a few times. Oh, and leyline = bad. But again, they have to be playing a shitload of em or get ass-lucky.

Goblins - Really easy actually. They can rarely build up 6 points of untapped blockers by turn 2, 3, or even 4, which is when you should be going off.

Thats about all I've played so far, but I will be testing more and if there seems to be any interest in this thread at all, will be posting more thorough test results later.




So, rip away. The more constructive criticism the better ^_^.

Melman
09-20-2006, 03:04 PM
Ok, Ive done a little more testing, because due to the lack of enthusiam thats what i assume is wanted =P.

I goldfished 100 games. Yes, 100 >_<. I got the following results...
Win on:

Turn 1 ----------- 8 times
Turn 2 ----------- 19 times
Turn 3 ----------- 46 times
Turn 4 ----------- 18 times
Turn 5 ----------- 5 times
Turn 6 or later --- 4 times

Id say thats pretty solid / consitant turn 3 win, with the occasional wtfpwn and omgthisdecksucks thrown in there, like any combo deck.

Now, the list Im testing is the BLUE variant of the one I tested above. I like mystical tutors too much to not run them, and the manabase can easliy support running 3 U. Seas in the place of 3 swamps, so thats not really an issue. Now, I ran the exact blue version above for a brief while, but I then switched out the spoils for Lim-duls vaults. Im still not sure which I like more. I hate killing myself / removing double ghouls with spoils, but it is faster... I may be leaning towards Vaults, but again, want some input on that.

I played goblins, and raped them. Really, the only games I ever lost were where they lucksacked and someone managed to build up 7 points of blocking by turn 3 without fetching a single time... oh, and obviously when I beat myself. Matchup estimate: 80-20

I played Iggy pop, and just outraced them most of the time. They did win a few games by going off for a storm count of like 4 on turn 2 or 3 so that the swing didnt kill them, but it was rare that they could pull that off and then really go off again before I just went off a second time as well. However, if they start with a leyline in hand, you lose really. Id say this match is about: 75-25 if they dont have 4 maindeck leylines, if they do, like 40-60 >_<

Against random jank decks, its simple: Just play it slow. Dont try and outdo yourself, if they arent playing counters and its not a combo deck of its own, then you really just need to go off by like turn 5 (which is insanely easy) to win.

I didnt manage to go against Gro, which Im assuming will really the decks hardest matchup. Playing against counters just changes how you have to play the deck, you generally want to wait for one of your 8 discard. Its not impossible, no where close, just kinda changed the method to your madness.

Ill update further with new ideas/new results later.

iOWN
09-20-2006, 03:38 PM
- Tainted Pact is really, really bad in this. Nearly all of your cards are 4-ofs, and if you even wanted it to work you would have to redo the land base to make it much smaller (1's and 2's).

- Cabal Therapy usually a suboptimal choice, as you have no way to flash it back before you win/lose, and one-shot guesses can be a waste of your disruption - Unmask should definitely replace this.

- Cabal Ritual? Why not just play Chrome Moxen? Other than those choices, this does not seem any different than Dancing Ghoul.

- A blue splash just for Mystical Tutors makes you're land base vulnerable, meaning that the Goblin matchup will become unfavorable. I would say do not splash unless you are playing a reasonable amount of Blue - for example you can try some cantrips and countermagic as well.

Here is a Dancing Ghoul list that I use which has some success:

// Lands
7 [MI] Swamp (4)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [OD] Cabal Pit

// Creatures
2 [JU] Sutured Ghoul
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Corpse Dance
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
3 [WL] Doomsday
4 [US] Dark Ritual
4 [MM] Unmask
4 [US] Duress
4 [WL] Buried Alive
4 [MI] Shallow Grave

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ON] Infest


Now aside from all of that, there is a new combo available which is faster and less card intensive - Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker, Sky Hussar, and Karmic Guide. Guide's power level errata was lifted, meaning that its ability now triggers whenever it comes into play. Reanimate Guide, to reanimate Kiki and copy the Guide, returning the Hussar, untapping Kiki and going infinite.

It's strengths are that it is infinite so it ignores blockers (toughness of 4 does not matter), it doesn't lose at the end of the turn, it can run Reanimate and Exhume rather than subpar choices, gets around Maze of Ith, but it still dies to Graveyard hate, Pithing Needle, and instant speed destruction. All-in-all, I'd say the pros outweigh the cons.

Kiki/Hussar Combo:

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 City of Traitors
7 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
3 Lotus Petal

4 Burning Wish
4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Reanimate
3 Buried Alive
3 Exhume
3 Doomsday
1 Darkblast

1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Sky Hussar
1 Karmic Guide
1 Gigapede

And a Wishboard allows you to run removal, mass removal, artifact destruction, disruption, a Buried Alive and an Exhume, maybe Recoup or Boiling Seas, etc.

Melman
09-20-2006, 05:31 PM
Tainted Pact is really, really bad in this. Nearly all of your cards are 4-ofs, and if you even wanted it to work you would have to redo the land base to make it much smaller (1's and 2's).

I agree, and thus I tested the blue version, which doesnt use pact. I think blue is pretty much necessary at this point.


Cabal Therapy usually a suboptimal choice, as you have no way to flash it back before you win/lose, and one-shot guesses can be a waste of your disruption - Unmask should definitely replace this.

Cabal therapy is actually much better than unmask in my testings. I counted the number of times total that I would have rather the therapy been an unmask, and there was a grand total of 1. In ALL the games I played. Depending upon what deck Im playing against, I name swords, force of will, chain of vapor, etc etc. If you know the cards and the color you are fine, and you rarely if ever have a spare black card to remove. They ALL do something, and unless you have a duplicate combo peice, which rarely ever happens, you should be using the card to go off faster / destroy the opponents hand


-
- Cabal Ritual? Why not just play Chrome Moxen?

See above. You shouldnt have extra cards to remove. =



A blue splash just for Mystical Tutors makes you're land base vulnerable, meaning that the Goblin matchup will become unfavorable. I would say do not splash unless you are playing a reasonable amount of Blue - for example you can try some cantrips and countermagic as well.
Two things: one, I run lim-duls vault now instead of the pacts, so they are there too, and second, there are a total of 3 lands different because of the blue splash. You can even run 1 or 2 seas if you are afraid of goblins, which you shouldnt be



// Lands
7 [MI] Swamp (4)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [OD] Cabal Pit


city of traitors, in my testing, was subpar, because you dont have a single card that takes that 2 colorless in the entire deck other than the buried alive, and getting stuck with that colorless mana was hell.



// Creatures
2 [JU] Sutured Ghoul
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

Why not the cloudscrapers? You say yourself one of the weaknesses is you have to worry about more than 4 toughness; why not make it 6?



3 [WL] Doomsday


I posted this as one of my cards for consideration in the original post, and found that it, well, sucks. Vault is purely better imo.



There is a new combo available which is faster and less card intensive - Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker, Sky Hussar, and Karmic Guide.


It's strengths are that it is infinite so it ignores blockers (toughness of 4 does not matter)


I know about this combo, and tried it for a while as well. But what I found was that that extra turn they have to do stuff really kills. With ghoul, you combo, they die if they dont have 7 untapped toughness on the board (by turn 3? yeah right).


it doesn't lose at the end of the turn,


The only time Ghoul ever goes off and doesnt win that turn when kiki could is if they have 7 toughness, which was explained above.
Oh, and when they gain more than 6 life, but those cases are so incredibly rare its not worth weakening the deck to account for them


it can run Reanimate and Exhume rather than subpar choices,


Exhume = shallow grave, so you get Reanimate over Corpse dance, which is so far really the only substantial pro I see so far.



gets around Maze of Ith


Who the hell plays Maze of Ith? XD I dont think Ive seen anyone play that against me in a LONG time.



but it still dies to Graveyard hate, Pithing Needle, and instant speed destruction.


Ghould doesnt die to Pithing needle, which everyone and their mother plays now >_<

Now, one thing I could potentailly see doing is running both in here (Kiki for when they have 7 toughness), but that would add the logistics of having 7 or more creatures in the deck (if you want to ghoul to win that turn but have a fatty in hand), so I dont know if its worth it.


Oh, and I really appreciate the feedback. I'm an argumentative guy, as you can see, but everything helps, and the more back-up you can give your statements the better it is for me (and you ^_^).

Solpugid
09-20-2006, 06:04 PM
Unmask does seem like the better choice for this deck (over cabal therapy), but since I haven't tested this I can't say for sure. If you continue to run therapy I would suggest you stay at the 2-2 split between dreadnaught and cloudscraper. That way you have the "put into graveyard" effect when you play dreadnaught, but you can play cloudscraper face down and sacrifice him to flashback therapy (as unlikely as they scenario might be).

Melman
09-20-2006, 06:13 PM
You rarely need more than one shot with the Therapy, but yeah I see your point.

I'm gonna give unmask another shot in testing this week but Im still thinking that it wont be that much different from last week... no cards to spare >_<.

Oh and when you say "If Cabal therapy, then 2-2", do you mean that you like another configuration more? cause this is another unsure thing that I have been playing around with and could also use input on.

Solpugid
09-20-2006, 07:17 PM
I personally like unmask in place of therapy (though again, that's purely speculation), in which case I think you should go with all 4 dreadnaughts (and no cloudscrapers). Maybe just split between 2 therapies and 2 unmask? (in which case, again, 4 dreadnaughts)

Melman
09-20-2006, 07:21 PM
I personally like unmask in place of therapy (though again, that's purely speculation), in which case I think you should go with all 4 dreadnaughts (and no cloudscrapers). Maybe just split between 2 therapies and 2 unmask? (in which case, again, 4 dreadnaughts)

Ok, just real quick, why do you like the dreadnaughts over the cloudscrapers? Heres how I see it:

Dreadnaught:
Pros - can play it before buried alive to make your dude super-huge, so you dont have to worry about blocking
Cons- Is smaller.

The reason i like the 2-2 setup is because it means you most of the time do h ave the 2 cloudscrapers to remove to make your guy 2 power bigger, but you dont need more than 2 of them, so make the other 2 dreadnaughts so if you draw them, you can play em. Basically, 2 cloudscrapers in deck > 2 Naughts in deck, but any more than 2 is pointless, and naught > scraper in hand, so yeah. Like that made any sense at all.

Solpugid
09-20-2006, 09:39 PM
No, that made sense. I think I just figure that if you have a 24/24 attacking on turn 2 or 3, why would you want him to be a 26/26? Maybe they can block to soak up damage, and live an extra turn. In the vast majority of cases where this would happen you will have killed everything they have to beat you with, and you can attack again for the win next turn. Similar to darksteel colossus in that regard. So considering having two extra power won't help all that much, why wouldn't you want to run the card that gets out of your hand more easily?

mercc
09-21-2006, 12:32 AM
Who the hell plays Maze of Ith? XD I dont think Ive seen anyone play that against me in a LONG time.


43lands.dec

Melman
09-21-2006, 07:06 AM
Basically Its because there have been more than one occasion on which they have 5 or 6 defense on turn 2-4. first turn birds, second turn wall of _____ = >_<. Lacky, warcheif, piledriver = >_<. But Ill be keeping track of how often this happens from now on and see if its worth it or not.

And honestly, Im not that concerned about 43land.dec, considering a deck running a total of 1 card Im scared of isnt worth worying about ^_^.

iOWN
09-21-2006, 03:27 PM
Cabal therapy is actually much better than unmask in my testings. I counted the number of times total that I would have rather the therapy been an unmask, and there was a grand total of 1. In ALL the games I played. Depending upon what deck Im playing against, I name swords, force of will, chain of vapor, etc etc. If you know the cards and the color you are fine, and you rarely if ever have a spare black card to remove. They ALL do something, and unless you have a duplicate combo peice, which rarely ever happens, you should be using the card to go off faster / destroy the opponents hand

I've played Dancing Ghoul with Unmask for nearly a year, maybe more, and it's never been a problem. A freecasted Duress can be fired on the same turn you go off, which is basically making it a turn faster. I've never, ever found that not having a card to pitch is a problem. Therapy, on the other hand, is a complete gamble as any instant-speed removal or counterspell, which is a wide, wide range, can disrupt you. When you try to use it first game you might as well name Didgeroo as you really have no idea before you see them play, and in a case where you do, it costs you another turn. The only situation where this beats Unmask is when they have a double StP or something, which should never come up.

Fake Edit - "I haven't tested it that thoroughly"... and aside from that it was all Goldfishing. You aren't going to see just how Therapy works out with a small amount of actual testing.


See above. You shouldnt have extra cards to remove. =

In your blue-splashed build, you are most definitely right. The two cards you added are essentially card-disadvantage engines and should do a decent job at emptying your hand. In mono-black, it is very rare that pitching to a Mox ever is a problem. Dancing Ghoul is not different than any other deck which uses Moxen, so your logic of 'but you won't be able to pitch!' is the same as saying 'I just don't like Mox.'




city of traitors, in my testing, was subpar, because you dont have a single card that takes that 2 colorless in the entire deck other than the buried alive, and getting stuck with that colorless mana was hell.

1 - Corpse Dance, Dreadnought, Defense Grid, Engineered Plague, hardcasted Unmask, Needle, and you can just use one of the colorless whenever you need to; a single manaburn won't kill you.

2 - There are 15 mana sources in the deck which can produce black mana (23 if you count Deltas and Rituals), against 4 which produce colorless. The only time you get stuck with colorless is when you really have pathetic luck.


Why not the cloudscrapers? You say yourself one of the weaknesses is you have to worry about more than 4 toughness; why not make it 6?

Because Dreadnoughts drop from your hand, which means a possible 36 damage, never getting stuck with a Cloudscraper in hand meaning you only have one shot, and that if they block or prevent the damage from Ghoul somehow, you can play a Dreadnought to sac it and have a permanent 12/12 Trampler.



I posted this as one of my cards for consideration in the original post, and found that it, well, sucks. Vault is purely better imo.

It doesn't suck. It sucks against certain decks (aka hardcounter.dec or Goblins), which is why you sideboard it out. It turns a two card combo into a one card with perfect consistency, it does not suck.



I know about this combo, and tried it for a while as well. But what I found was that that extra turn they have to do stuff really kills. With ghoul, you combo, they die if they dont have 7 untapped toughness on the board (by turn 3? yeah right). The only time Ghoul ever goes off and doesnt win that turn when kiki could is if they have 7 toughness, which was explained above.
Oh, and when they gain more than 6 life, but those cases are so incredibly rare its not worth weakening the deck to account for them

They can do a lot of stuff that kills in an extra turn? Like... sorcery speed removal? Swinging for 20? That's about it. If they stop you, which is entirely possible, your creatures don't get zapped from the game, they stick around which means you still win.



Exhume = shallow grave

Exhume does not = Shallow Grave. It makes it so the stack of creatures doesn't matter (the 'top' creature of your graveyard...) so dredge works.


substantial pro

Better Reanimation, infinite means no 7 toughness limit, 4 creature requirement rather than 6, etc, etc. All valid reasons.


Who the hell plays Maze of Ith? XD I dont think Ive seen anyone play that against me in a LONG time.

Well than you haven't played for a long time. There are about a million Loam decks running around, and at least a couple run it (the main being 43land.dec).


Ghould doesnt die to Pithing needle, which everyone and their mother plays now >_<

I know it doesn't. I said that it was the only different con. But, Burning Wish lets you fetch all the artifact hate you need which makes it much less of a problem.


Now, one thing I could potentailly see doing is running both in here (Kiki for when they have 7 toughness), but that would add the logistics of having 7 or more creatures in the deck (if you want to ghoul to win that turn but have a fatty in hand), so I dont know if its worth it.

It's not.


Oh, and I really appreciate the feedback. I'm an argumentative guy, as you can see, but everything helps, and the more back-up you can give your statements the better it is for me (and you ^_^).

Don't worry, I am too. ;)

Edit -
And honestly, Im not that concerned about 43land.dec, considering a deck running a total of 1 card Im scared of isnt worth worying about ^_^.

They run it as a four-of, and they can get it really easily. You have absolutely no way to stop it.

Melman
09-21-2006, 04:41 PM
Yay for wall of text posts.


I've played Dancing Ghoul with Unmask for nearly a year, maybe more, and it's never been a problem. A freecasted Duress can be fired on the same turn you go off, which is basically making it a turn faster. I've never, ever found that not having a card to pitch is a problem. Therapy, on the other hand, is a complete gamble as any instant-speed removal or counterspell, which is a wide, wide range, can disrupt you. When you try to use it first game you might as well name Didgeroo as you really have no idea before you see them play, and in a case where you do, it costs you another turn. The only situation where this beats Unmask is when they have a double StP or something, which should never come up.

Fake Edit - "I haven't tested it that thoroughly"... and aside from that it was all Goldfishing. You aren't going to see just how Therapy works out with a small amount of actual testing.


Ok Ive done more and more testing, with unmask instead of therapy and vice versa, and Id say roughly 50% of the time, yes, 50, I dont have a card to pitch that wont a) ruin my combo or b) slow me down at least a turn. This, Im sorry, is unacceptable in a speed combo deck. I can now truthfully say I have tested the deck thoroughly (although I still havent found a competent/willing gro player to play against), and Unmask isnt working out for me. the only cards in the whole deck are accel, combo, finding combo, and discard, and the only card out of all those that you want to be pitching to unmask is other discard, where a duress would be flat out better in almost all circumstances (If you have it you most likely played it turn 1 and dont have ANOTHER to pitch).



In your blue-splashed build, you are most definitely right. The two cards you added are essentially card-disadvantage engines and should do a decent job at emptying your hand. In mono-black, it is very rare that pitching to a Mox ever is a problem. Dancing Ghoul is not different than any other deck which uses Moxen, so your logic of 'but you won't be able to pitch!' is the same as saying 'I just don't like Mox.'


So many problems here. First, Vault is purely, and in every imaginable way, superior to doomsday. Cause yes, Doomsday does suck. If you have only one search card and no combo, you probably should not have kept, so theres never a situation in which you need both cards, and it costs one more then vault, and you almost always will lose more life, and you cant go off again, and... I think you get the point.



1 - Corpse Dance, Dreadnought, Defense Grid, Engineered Plague, hardcasted Unmask, Needle, and you can just use one of the colorless whenever you need to; a single manaburn won't kill you.

Corpse dance, ok sure. so 2 cards. Dreadnaught no, your whole argument that you want them to make your guy bigger in situations where you have them in your hand is flawed, because if you are proficient whatsoever at math, you can see that the situations in which the extra power from removing cloudscrapers outnumbers the situations in which you have extra mana to play a dreadnaught that you happen to have in your hand so much that its not worth it. Defense Grid wtf? Since when does a turn 1-4 combo deck want to run a sub-par land so it can play a sideboarded card with one less mana? I have no idea why you would be running plague, it helps in matches you already rape in, stupid stupid sideboard card. Hardcasted unmask... lol I can see that you do need to beef up that list, but you will never be casting an unmask with mana unless you are already in an unwinnable situation. And needle also seems like a very subpar reason to run a shitty land.



2 - There are 15 mana sources in the deck which can produce black mana (23 if you count Deltas and Rituals), against 4 which produce colorless. The only time you get stuck with colorless is when you really have pathetic luck.

15 v 4 is kinda bad, considering you need about an average of 2 or 3 black mana on turns 2-5. Having one is just not enough, added to the fact that you SHOULD be playing the blue splash, which furter weakens city.




Because Dreadnoughts drop from your hand, which means a possible 36 damage, never getting stuck with a Cloudscraper in hand meaning you only have one shot, and that if they block or prevent the damage from Ghoul somehow, you can play a Dreadnought to sac it and have a permanent 12/12 Trampler.

See above. The situations in which you have a dreadnaught in hand AND have the mana to play it BEFORE you play buried alive OR extra mana AFTER the reanimate to play it is so minute, its not worth running it over a 100% of the time bigger dude. This is my experience so far. This, I must admit, is one of the points Im less sure about, and one of them that I have been looking at very specifically, but Im still liking the 2-2 setup as of now.





It doesn't suck. It sucks against certain decks (aka hardcounter.dec or Goblins), which is why you sideboard it out. It turns a two card combo into a one card with perfect consistency, it does not suck.

See above. Yes it sucks. Vault is purely better.




They can do a lot of stuff that kills in an extra turn? Like... sorcery speed removal? Swinging for 20? That's about it. If they stop you, which is entirely possible, your creatures don't get zapped from the game, they stick around which means you still win.

Like... Iggy or high tide go off? Like... wrath of god, mutilate, disk, and any other of the plethora of playable sorcery mass removal? Yes, I do really like that 'stick around' factor, which is the advantage. This is one of the other things that I still need to test more thoroughly.



Exhume does not = Shallow Grave. It makes it so the stack of creatures doesn't matter (the 'top' creature of your graveyard...) so dredge works.


1 Dredge card that I dont play, and dont see the use for in this deck in a 60 card deck? Exhume = Shallow grave.




Better Reanimation, infinite means no 7 toughness limit, 4 creature requirement rather than 6, etc, etc. All valid reasons.

The 6 is so you can go off twice. And 4 will not work, it kind blows when you draw a combo peice, huh? so 8 instead of 6?




Well than you haven't played for a long time. There are about a million Loam decks running around, and at least a couple run it (the main being 43land.dec).


I can assure you, I have been playing this game for quite a while, and there are very few loam decks running around, and even fewer running Maze. Really, the only deck at all running maze is 43land. And running an entire, weaker, separate combo to accomodate for 1 uncommon deck? nothx.




I know it doesn't. I said that it was the only different con. But, Burning Wish lets you fetch all the artifact hate you need which makes it much less of a problem.


Burning wish is just a weak mystical tutor. Its an extra mana, requires you to gimp your sideboard, and, above all, is a sorcery. Weaksauce. The only advantage I can potentially see at all is the fact that with a gimp sideboard comes answers to the incredibly rare situations of screwage that a wish board may potentially be able to solve. Oh, and also, red instead of blue means no vault, which, for the 3rd time, >>>>>>>>>>Doomsday.

parallax
09-21-2006, 04:58 PM
What's all this about an extra turn with Karmic Guide--Kiki-Jiki--Sky Hussar? That kills the turn you combo. Kiki-Jiki gives the tokens haste.

Melman
09-21-2006, 06:15 PM
What's all this about an extra turn with Karmic Guide--Kiki-Jiki--Sky Hussar? That kills the turn you combo. Kiki-Jiki gives the tokens haste.

O_O

I suck at life

Ok cool. So thats just a 3-card combo as well, right? I remember seeing like a giga or something but Dont think thats necesarry... so if thats the case, then Id say that its purely superior to the ghoul combo.

Only thing with that is, we need to find a new name >_<.

KIKI JIKI, BRING OF DOOM.dec
>_>

EDIT: I keep getting nubs not beleiving me when I tell them the errata was lifted. Is there anywhere that I can lead them to to prove it to them? Brainburst and starcity both have the card as still errata'd, which doesnt help the cause >_<

Maverick676
09-21-2006, 06:27 PM
Go to gatherer on wizards.com/magic, it has the official wording.

parallax
09-22-2006, 09:53 AM
You should always check card wordings at Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com).

I think the Karmic Guide kill is strictly better than Dancing Ghoul. The only downside is a vulnerability to Pithing Needle.

The Gigapede is in case you draw a combo piece in hand. You substitute the Gigapede when you Buried Alive, and discard your combo piece on upkeep.