[Deck] Pox

[Clark Kant]

Here is an article I wrote for SCG with development help from a friend of mine in Columbus roughly a month ago. We were told it was going to be published, but it wasn't for a few weeks. When we resubmitted it the moment Tomb of Yawgmoth was spoiled, we simply never heard back. So in an effort to get this topic moved to Open, I thought the article would make a decent primer here...

Legacy on a Budget - Small Pox: Design and Construction

There are two common misconceptions about Legacy. Legacy is a format with only three truly competitive decks. And even playing fairly strong rogue decks requires investment in multiple very expensive dual lands. Is it any wonder why so many players just decide to build goblins, the cheapest of these three? Is it any wonder that goblins makes up a full third of most reasonably sized tournaments? Is it any wonder that many players choose not to invest several hundred dollars into building rogue decks they already falsely perceive as unviable? This article is the first of what we hope will be a series of articles popularizing viable budget decks that are not among the overplayed three: Goblins, Threshold and Solidarity.

Smallpox is a monoblack deck with a heavy focus on discard, land destruction, and many inherent synergies. The deck draws it’s roots from Pox, a deck which first reared it’s head in 1995, but which in it’s prime relied upon cards such as Pox and Hymn to Tourach and creatures such as Hypnotic Specter and Mindstab Thrull to heavily disrupt the opponent. Pox has always remained under the radar since then, slowly evolving to incorporate newer cards such as Chimeric Idol and Nether Spirit in the mix. But it is the recent printing of the cards Smallpox and Phyrexian Totem in Time Spiral, and the hot off the presses spoiling of Tomb of Yawgmoth from Planar Choas, that we believe can put this deck back on the map.

Smallpox BB, Sorcery

Card text: Each player loses 1 life, discards a card, sacrifices a creature, then sacrifices a land.

This recent addition from Time Spiral adds an additional element of both creature removal and land destruction working extremely well in a deck that was already designed to abuse the more powerful, but more mana intensive Pox. For comparison, here is what the original did.

Pox BBB, Sorcery

Card text: Each player loses 1/3 of his or her life; then chooses and discards 1/3 of his or her hand; then sacrifices 1/3 of the creatures he or she controls; and then sacrifices 1/3 of the lands he or she controls. Round each loss up.

Phyrexian Totem 3, Artifact

Tap: Add B to your mana pool.
2B: Phyrexian Totem becomes a 5/5 black Horror artifact creature with trample until end of turn.
Whenever Phyrexian Totem is dealt damage, if it's a creature, sacrifice that many permanents.

This card provides this archeatype with another win condition that is immune to Innocent Blood, Smallpox and Pox to the already steller options, Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol and Mishra’s Factory.

Tomb of Yawgmoth, Legendary Land

Card text: Each land is a Swamp in addition to its other land types.

This land allows this deck to mitigate one of it’s biggest problems, mainly, that running colored sources like Mishra’s Factories and Wastelands made it sometimes difficult to cast Pox without casting four mana sources thus breaking the ability to maximize Pox by making certain you also have multiples of three in terms of lands in play and cards in hand. Just how successful adding one to two copies of this card will be in mitigating this issue will not be determined until more testing with the card is done.

There is one last card that has recently been spoiled and warrants mention.

Expirate B, Instant

Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.)
Choose target card in a graveyard other than a basic land. Search its owner's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that card and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

It yet remains unclear whether this card warrants inclusion in the deck. The card by itself rarely generates card advantage. But in a deck such as this, that easily gets cards into your opponents graveyard and that runs into a few cards in certain matchups that greatly hurt it's game plan, cards such as Exalted Angel, Standstill and Goblin Matron. Being able to remove all additional copies from the game can be a massive boon.

The main strength of the deck is that with proper tuning, it can be designed to beat just about anything. The two major weaknesses of the deck are that it can be a little inconsistent at time, and that when tuned to consistently perform well against one archetype, the maindeck becomes weaker against others and must rely on it's sideboard.

Here is a sample decklist…

Variant One - Nonbudget

8 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit

3 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Nether Spirit
3 Phyrexian Totem

Sideboard:
X Expirate
X Pithing Needle
X Powder Keg
X Engineered Plague
X Infest

It is also possible to increase the land count a little bit and run maindeck Mox Diamonds over Dark Rituals in such a build. On the same token, it is perfectly viable to cut Mishra’s Factories and even some Crucible of Worlds and instead utilize Chimeric Idols as a win condition. Chimeric Idol has two very relevant advantages over the alternatives Mishra’s Factory and Phyrexian Totem. It does not use up a land drop, and it does not require mana to activate thus allowing you to actively Pox and play out your other disruption all while attacking at the same time. Attacking with Mishra’s Factory eats up the equivalent of two mana each turn, and attacking with Phyrexian Totem eats up three but with the advantage of offering a mere four turn clock. Thus, it’s difficult to play out your disruption while at the same time chipping away at your opponent’s life total.

Here is an example…

Variant Two - Nonbudget

(Mana)
18 Swamp
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

(1cc Disruption)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress

(2cc Disruption)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

(3cc Disruption)
4 Pox

(Win Conditions)
3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Phyrexian Totem

Variant Three - Budget

(Mana)
18 Swamp
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Dark Ritual

(1cc Disruption)
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
2 Cabal Therapy/Funeral Charm

(2cc Disruption)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Powder Keg

(3cc Disruption)
4 Pox
2 Infest

(Win Conditions)
3 Nether Spirit
3 Phyrexian Totem

The only two cards that need be removed in order to budgetize the deck are Wastelands and Sinkholes. The loss of Wastelands while generally bad, actually makes the deck stronger in certain matchups. Wastelands are usually a liability against two of the three most prevalent decks in the format, Solidarity and Goblins.

Against Goblins, except for hitting the occasional dual land, Rishidan Port, or Wasteland at a critical moment, Wasteland usually just takes up slots that could be devoted to either more threats or more discard and creature removal, all while not producing the on color mana needed to cast Pox, Smallpox, or Hymn. As land destruction itself is only occasionally fruitful against goblins, the replacement of Sinkhole with a card like Cabal Therapy also serves to make the deck stronger in this particular matchup. Even Rancid Earth is quite potent against goblins once this deck attains threshold.

Against Solidarity, Wasteland once again serves little purpose beyond Smallpox fodder while taking up slots better spent on discard. Sinkhole however is a significant loss in this matchup, as Solidarity is very depending on reaching four lands in order to combo off, and land destruction when combined with the Poxes, Duress and Hymn to remove critical card drawing elements is often sufficient to secure victory.

Threshold is the one matchup where you will most bemoan the loss of Wasteland and Sinkhole. These two cards, when combined with the remainder of the disruption elements, can in many games make short work of Thresholds fragile manabase even enduring a free counterspell or two. Wasteland of course has the very notable advantage of being uncounterable. With the loss of these two cards, the matches can be a bit longer and more drawn out with your discard often trading with their countermagic, your win conditions being dealt with their Swords, and their win conditions being dealt with by your Poxes and Smallpoxes. A threshold player who makes very intelligent use of his countermagic and Meddling Mages usually has the upper hand over a budget build that is not running multiple Cabal Therapies.

If you are looking to replace the land destruction that Sinkhole provides, but wish to do so on a budget, neither Blight nor Rancid Earth are terrible options. Infact, in certain matchups, loading up on all three cards and thus effectively running 24 land destruction options maindeck, is the right call. But both cards unfortunately have very significant disadvantages over the original which will be covered in greater detail in the next section.

The sideboard will be covered in the next section.

Card Analysis

For a card to be considered for inclusion in Smallpox it needs to get around cards such as Innocent Blood, Smallpox, and Pox and in addition needs to produce mana, disrupt the opponent, or deal damage. There is a surprisingly large number of potent cards to choose from. No one build is ever optimal for two different metagames. No card is an automatic four of, not even Pox and Smallpox. The specific card choices and numbers are heavily dependent on the particular metagame, and to a lesser degree, the preferred playstyle. Nevertheless, certain cards though they may seem strong on the surface, are in fact poor choices in this deck, and those cards in addition to getting an explanation as to why they are poor choices will be marked with a * to allow people to easily skip past them.

Mana

Due to the tendency of cards like Pox and Smallpox to destroy your own lands, this deck needs to play a good bit more mana than would be indicated from a simple analysis of the mana curve.

Swamp – Due to the heavy black dependence of cards such as Pox, Smallpox, Sinkhole and Hymn to Tourach, you will need to play a bare minimum of 18 permanent black mana sources but preferably 20, and a lot of land in general.

Wasteland – This card may make more sense in the Disruption section as that is the general purpose this card serves. As good as this card is, the only reason to play it is if your meta packs atleast a moderate amount of nonbasic lands. The reason for this is that it is absolutely critical that your disruption begins early on with a deck like this, especially when facing a blue mage who if left unchecked will likely build up sufficient card advantage to put you in an unwinnable position, and against who your massive pseudo reset button, Pox is unlikely to resolve. And yet the only disruption element in this deck that can be cast with colorless mana is Infest, which usually is a more a turn three and later type of card, and which is often of little use against blue mages. Where as with just three swamps in play, you can usually Pox without much hesistation, but if a colorless land was played within the first three turns, Poxing early will require you to either sacrifice two lands, or use up a Dark Ritual, both of which are disadvantagous to you as well.

Tomb of Yawgmoth – Being a brand new spoiled card that’s hot of the presses, testing with this land has been limited. But it seems to be a great way to get away with running lands that don’t produce black mana, such as Mishra’s Factory, while still enabling you to Pox early without losing more than one land at a time.

Mishra’s Factory – This card may make more sense in the Kill Conditions section as that is generally the purpose that this card serves. As a kill condition, it’s major weakness is that uses up a land drop.

Dark Ritual - A very solid choice. ability to set up explosive plays early on, and it's equally important ability to let you cast a threat off of just one land, after having used up some combination of Pox and Smallpox or Wasteland to nuke all of your opponents lands but leaving you with only one land in the process. Nevertheless, some players may opt to cut this card in favor of more disruption and more consistent mana sources.

Cabal Pit - The lifeloss that this land causes in a deck that depletes it's own life total rather quickly makes this a tough card to recommend. Nevertheless, it is a black mana source that doubles as removal and has excellent synergy with Crucible.

Mox Diamond - Some suggest running these in place of Dark Ritual. It does have synergy with Crucible of Worlds and allows you to pitch Wastelands in matchups where they are not worthwhile. Even then, that this card is better than Dark Ritual is doubtful. An opening hand with 2 Swamps and 1 Dark Ritual leaves you with many more options than a hand with 2 Swamps and 1 Mox Diamond. With the former, you can opt to a play both Duress and a 3cc Threat turn one, only to follow it up with a Sinkhole or Hymn next turn and a Smallpox the turn after should they miss their next land drop indicating that they are vulnerable to mana screw, all while your Idol reduces their life total.

Mana That Should Not Be Played

Flagstones of Trokair - Only viable in nonbudget versions that opt to splash White. Any splash is advised against however as it makes the deck too vulnerable to Wastelands. But if White is indeed splashed for cards like Vindicate, then this card is easy to recommend due to it's inherent synergy with Pox and Smallpox. Tomb of Yawgmoth in specific gives this card a significant boost.

Chrome Mox - Some suggest running these in place of Dark Ritual. But the extreme card disadvantage it creates in a deck where it's own spells cause it to discard cards and that has no means to draw extra cards makes a very difficult card to recommend.

Kill Conditions

While the disruption below paves the way, these are the cards that must end the game, and unfortunately, for the deck to work well, no more than 8-10 maindeck slots should be devoted to them. This means that consistency is key, these few cards must work well every single game. A kill condition that sticks around and consistently damages your opponent each game is preferred over one that works extremely well in some games, but does next to nothing in others. This is the underlying reason why some very popular and disruptive kill conditions such as Cursed Scroll, Hypnotic Specter, and the Rack are not recommended. They are either too slow for the mana investment they require each turn, have poor synergy with many of your own cards to stick around, or simply don’t deal damage in all situations.

Nether Spirit - The best tempo swing you could ask for. Discarding this card to Smallpox not only nets you a card over your opponent but also puts creature into your graveyard thus bringing it to play under your controller during your next upkeep, all without costing you a single mana. Not only does this creature not go away to anything short of Swords to Plowshares, but it can chump block till the end of time and also combos beautifully with Cabal Therapy and Contamination. The only disadvantage is that each time it returns to play, it has summoning sickness which makes it rather slow at times. Regardless, we would gladly run four if not for the fear of having multiple Spirits wind up in my graveyard. When initially learning to play this deck, you must get into the habit of declaring your upkeep step and making certain there isn't a Nether Spirit you could return to play at this time.

Chimeric Idol - Chimeric Idol is a very easy card to compare with Phyrexian Totem. It has the advantage of activating for free thus allowing you to play your disruption and then attacking, and attacking when you only have two lands in play, where as Totem ties up your mana and requires three mana in order to attack.

Phyrexian Totem - This win condition can end the game very quickly after a pox, and can be tapped to produce mana as well, allowing you to recover quicker. But when active, a surprise burn spell could cost you all of your land and probably the game. In addition, Totem takes a full three mana to activate which is a very big disadvantage since this usually means playing a piece of disruption the same turn as you attack is out of the question, as is activating Totem when you go down to two land. All in all, Chimeric Idol seems to have an advantage, due to it’s ability to block but if there is room, there is no reason not to run both.

Kill Conditions That Should Not Be Played

Cursed Scroll - This is likely going to be the most controversial point in this article, but a great deal of playtime went into Cursed Scroll before it was determined that the card just was not consistently good enough to beat out the above options. The reasons are multifold. 1.) The activation cost is too high. The three mana it takes to activate Cursed Scroll can just as easily activate Totem, and deal a full five points of damage rather than two. With such a high activation costs, it has the same disadvantages that make Totem less appealing, it doesn't let you cast disruption the same turn you activate it, and it also can't be used when you only have two land. 2.) The fact that you will rarely be able to activate Scroll the same turn that you play your disruption, means that unless you keep drawing lands, you only have a 50% chance of hitting something with Scroll the second time, a 33% the third time etc. The only alternative is to alternate between casting out your hand and activating scroll. 3.) Your opponent usually ends up knowing exactly what's in your hand and what to expect each time you use Scroll. They'll be able to brace for impact for that upcoming Pox, and will likely change their gameplan based on this. All this work and mana, just to deal two damage every other turn is not a very sound investment for this deck.

The Rack - In a build dependent on mana disruption, the above options are unquestionably better. Mana screwing your opponent prevents your opponent from playing cards, which itself makes The Rack worthless. But in a build of the deck that has more in common with the budget version of the deck. This isn't a terrible win condition due to it’s low casting cost. Even then, to use it well, you would have to load up your deck with discard even more so; and you are still most likely better off with the above options which can all block and kill off weenies, a very significant aspect to making this deck work in an aggressive metagame.

Hypnotic Specter/Mindstab Thrull/Necroplasm - These creatures harken back to years ago, at the height of Pox's success, but also back when not nearly as many noncreature alternatives existed. Now that Smallpox has become a mainstay, it’s best to abandon all traditional creatures with the exception of the very abusable Nether Spirits.

Dark Confidant/Nantuko Shade/Phyrexian Negator/Jotun Grunt - Once again, the addition of Smallpox makes running traditional creatures less desirable and also allows you to instead run cards like Innocent Blood. Phyrexian Negator however remains a decent sideboard option in a metagame filled with combo, due to it’s ability to end games quickly after firing off several bouts of disrutption.

Guardian Idol - Considering how little use this deck has for colorless mana, and the high activation cost for such a small creature, Mishra's Factory, Phyrexian Totem and Chimeric Idol are all far superior choices.

Disruption

Innocent Blood – Simply the best creature kill this deck could ask for. At a casting card equivalent to Swords, it gets around both untargetability and protection from white, all while not gaining any life for your opponents. It works well with Pox and Smallpox clearing away any creatures left behind, and also has excellent synergy with Infest, allowing you to clear away all your opponents weenies, and then force them to sac the one piece of fat they have left.

Funeral Charm – This card is versatile enough that we would at the very least run 2 in either the maindeck or the sideboard, in every Pox build. Not only can it kill first turn lackey, but it can also let your Nether Spirit trade with Werebear (only to return to play next turn), can deal a few points of extra damage ending the game a turn sooner than your opponent anticipated. Swampwalk can be useful at times as well, especially if your build runs Phyrexian Totem. And last but certainly not least, once you empty your opponents hand, instant speed discard can be a very potent tool.

Infest – This card is the strongest weapon you have against all manners of aggro and single handedly wins games if used properly, and especially if your opponent overextends out of fear of losing their threats to your discard. It also works well with Innocent Blood and Smallpox to enable such game altering plays as clearing away all your opponents weenies, thus forcing them to sac their Exalted Angel. Three is the bare minimum number of these that should be run between the maindeck and sideboard, four is recommended.

Duress – In a deck that has access to a multitude of tools to deal with creatures and land but little else, and that is highly dependent on being able to anticipate your opponents future plays, Duress is a no brainer. If you anticipate facing mostly straight forward aggro, then relegating this card to the sideboard may be acceptable. But the only reason to cut this card entirely is if you play in very underdeveloped metas dominated by creatures and little else.

Cabal Therapy - Can be flashed back using Nether Spirit, or Mishra's Factory with a Crucible in play. Has great synergy with Duress as well. If you anticipate facing a decent bit of combo, or simply have a little room to spare in your decklist, this is a solid inclusion either in the maindeck or the sideboard.

Hymn to Tourach – This card is an absolute automatic four of. Not only does it create card advantage, but fear of it can push your oppoents to overextend, only to leave them vulnerable to a well timed Infest or Pox. Lastly it can also can cause your opponents to discard away critical lands.

Sinkhole – In addition to providing a huge tempo swing, this card wins games. Many players design their deck to open with 2-3 land. If one of these lands falls victim to Sinkhole, another to Hymn or Wasteland, and yet another to either Pox or Smallpox, your opponents often have no real chance of winning.

Smallpox – You can kill off both a creature and a land. Easily the best piece of disruption that black has seen in a very long time. Yes, the only time this provides actual card advantage is when a Nether Spirit is involved, or when hand is already empty. But if there is one thing that Vintage Fish has shown us, it’s that the importance of tempo should never be underestimated. This also serves to be a critical piece of the mana disruption puzzle.

Pox – This card does everything that Smallpox does, but can do it far better, all for just one more mana. It also very quickly brings down life totals, bringing all your threats within striking range. As a very quick rule of thumb, one that will be elaborated upon in the followup article, you are best served when your lands and cards in hand are in multiples of three and when your opponent’s creatures, lands and cards in hand, are not.

Powder Keg - This is a very powerful and versatile card, one of the few good cards that allows black to deal with artifacts including mana producers, and the card is useful against goblins, affinity and many other matchups as well. A couple warrant being run in either the maindeck or sideboard.

Crucible of Worlds - While not disruptive in and of itself. This card can greatly supplement your disruption engine, by letting you recycle Wastelands, and by letting you play Poxes and Smallpoxes with impunity without fear of manascrewing yourself. Recycling lands pitched to Mox Diamond and reincarnating Mishra's Factories, including those that served as Cabal Therapy fodder can also be huge boons.

Sensei's Divining Top - One of the few means to help keep the threats coming in black, without taking lifeloss. Unfortunately, this still doesn't change the fact that the deck is very tight on free slots as is. May well be worthwhile in the budget version since it has a few extra slots to spare. Of course, the addition of fetchlands can put such a build on a relatively high budget as well.

Expirate - It yet remains unclear whether this card warrants inclusion in the deck. The card by itself rarely generates card advantage. But in a deck such as this, that easily gets cards into your opponents graveyard and that runs into a few cards in certain matchups that greatly hurt it's game plan, cards such as Exalted Angel, Standstill and Goblin Matron. Being able to remove all additional copies from the game can be a massive boon.

Braids, Cabal Minion – Variants of this deck, utilizing it’s mana destruction core along with a card like Braids to give the deck a more Stax type feel are popping up in various forms. Many such variants opt for a white splash for Vindicate and some even run Sphere of Resistence. Of course, utilizing a creature like Braids mandates that Nether Spirit be cut and the heavy stax theme mandates that the decks plays a large number of lands utilizing cards like Mox Diamond for acceleration and Mishra’s Factories to deal damage. This in turn also makes Chimeric Idol unviable due to the inherent disynergy between Idol and Mishra’s Factory.

Smokestack - Combos with Crucible of Worlds and Nether Spirit. But can be slow and mana intensive especially against a deck like goblins. This card is geared for a slower more controllish metagame but in those situations, it can indeed work and work well as long as you are running atleast six Crucibles and Nether Spirits.

Blight – We certainly don’t advocate running this card, as it has its share of problems, but it can act as a budget Sinkhole replacement for some, and can supplement the land destruction route for those that find that this is the main means through which they win games. However, this card is no where near as good as Sinkhole for three reasons. 1.) Your opponent gets one last use of their land, which means that they can still save up mana to cast that Exalted Angel they've been saving up for. 2.) Your opponent can wisely choose not to tap the land and wait for you to topdeck and eventually cast a Pox or Smallpox at some point, only to sacrifice the Blighted land to that. 3.) While this is a minor point, Blight can be destroyed with a Disenchant, Naturalize etc.

Rancid Earth - Another candidate for the budget Sinkhole replacement, or Sinkhole supplement slot. It costs a little more mana which messes with the mana curve a bit, but it also can act as a one hit pestilence once you attain threshold, which can be quite potent at times.

Night's Whispers - Not a disruption slot per se, but this does help replenish your hand and allows you to draw into more disruption especially after your initial disruption spells are used up. Unfortunately, the fact that this deck has little spare room, can't afford to cause much self life loss, and is often tight on mana, often using up whatever mana it has to cast disruption and threats, means that running it probably not worthwhile. Often you would rather that this were an additional piece of disruption rather than a card that eats up one of your turns to cast.

Skeletal Scrying - Refer above.

Phyrexian Arena - Refer above.

Sideboard Slots

Many of the aforementioned cards are just as viable in the sideboard as they are in the maindeck. But in addition to them, here are some sideboard choices that are a bit too narrow to be suited for the maindeck.

Spinning Darkness – Creature destruction plus life gain all without paying a single mana, this card is a great supplement to your existing creature destruction.

Engineered Plague – This card is sideboarded in every other black deck over Infest because it sticks around and stacks and because Infest has the drawback of hitting your creatures. This deck doesn’t care about that drawback, and Infest is generally good against a much larger number of decks. So I would start off any sideboard with 4 Infest due to it’s utility against a much larger range of decks, and supplement it with as many Engineered Plagues as possible, preferably a full set of 4, in order to turn the Goblins matchup into a favorable one postboard.

Damnation – The single best sweeper black has to offer. Unfortunately, a tad bit above the decks general curve, and I’m not yet convinced that there any particularly difficult matchups that this card would improve. Infest already does a fine job of removing all weenies, and Innocent Blood, Pox, and Smallpox do a fine job of cleaning up the one or two fatty that many decks run that is big enough to survive Infest. But the card is so inherently powerful in a deck like this that the deck itself may warrant tweaking in order to allow you to abuse it.

Diabolic Edict – It is an instant speed Innocent Blood that doesn’t set your Nether Spirit attacks back by a turn. It works well for the same reason Innocent Blood works well, because you have cards like Infest, Smallpox and Pox to deal with the others and because it dodges protection and untargetability. But you have so many other cards that have a similar effect that you are probably better off playing something else. Some people however may opt to simply maindeck this card instead of Innocent Blood due in large part to it’s instant speed.

Smother – Yet another card that supplements your creature destruction well. It’s fairly versatile and it couldn’t hurt to have atleast some targeted removal.

Darkblast – An early Lackey killer that can kill 2/2s as well at the expense of a draw. While Dredge does combo well with Crucible and Cabal Therapy, this deck has many better options in my opinion.

Massacre - Worse than Infest against goblins which is the main reason to run a sweeper such as this in the first place. Don’t bother with it unless your meta is packed with white.

Lose Hope – Scry is a very useful ability for a deck such as this that packs many bombs and no card draw. Nevertheless, it’s too narrow a card to play in a deck with so many better options.

Mutilate – The second best sweeper that black has to offer. But requires many swamps to use effectively. Only bother with this if your play style isn’t as reliant on land destruction and you thus frequently find yourself with a lot of mana to spare.

Sudden Death – A great card that just too mana intensive in a deck that has so many cheaper options.

Perish – Rather narrow compared to the other sweepers you have at your disposal. Only worth running if you see a lot of green.

Virtue's Ruin – See above, substituting green with White

Dystopia - The first permanent is destroyed without any lifeloss. And losing a couple of life to clear your opponents entire board is usually a worthwhile investment.

Leyline of the Void/Planar Void – Crucible, Dredge and Loam decks can really interfere with your gameplan. These cards shut them down. And they’re also quite potent against Reanimator, Threshold, Welder Survival and lots of janky combos, enough said.

Tormod's Crypt – See above.

Pithing Needle – This can deal with some of the randomness that interferes with your gameplan, especially artifact mana and Aether Vial. But Powder Keg does the same thing, and usually does it better.

Kaervek's Spite – This is quite the finisher, especially when your opponent is tapped out. Probably too narrow to devote slots to however. If you do, just remember never to bring this in against any deck playing Force of Wills.

Contamination - Combos with Nether Spirit (and Crucible + Factory) to screw over a lot of decks, a very potent strategy in certain metagames.

Dimir Machination – Supplements Contamination by letting you grab any combo piece you may be missing, while also letting tutor up bombs like Pox. Its normal effect comes in handy at times too.

Misinformation – A good way to ensure that your opponent won’t topdeck anymore lands anytime soon. *Props to Tannascurath for the tech.

Tangle Wire – A great way to supplement your land destruction. This would be an autoinclude if this deck ran more permanents. As it barely runs any, this card is probably not worth the effort.

Trinisphere - If your build is geared heavily towards land destruction, even at the expense of 1cc Discard spells, then this will supplement your gameplan against decks with very low curves very well.

Oppression – Very potent and not just in builds that use The Rack. This card can really devastate Threshold and most control and combo decks.

Chains of Mephistoteles – Another very potent weapon against Threshold, Control and Combo decks. Definitely a worthwhile investment if you can afford it.

Wrench Mind – If your build opts to run The Rack, and it needs more discard spells, this is one of your better options.

Persecute – In builds heavily focused on mana denial, especially if they are also running Dark Rituals, this can be an extremely potent means to decimate your opponents entire hand with a single spell.

Haunting Echoes - Often too mana intensive to be castable in time to matter.

Zuran Orb - Combos with Crucible to gain you life. But the combo is unlikely, especially in deck with no tutoring or card draw. Can provide some life gain as a buffer, but is too narrow a card to recommend devoting slots to. In short, don’t bother wasting slots on this.

Engineered Explosives/Null Rod - Both can destroy most artifact mana, and can hurt Affinity and even Goblins in the case Explosives. Both cards are less versatile than Powder Keg for all intents and purposes however so we would stick with Keg.

Splashes

As already covered, any splash is recommended against because of the increased vulnerability your manabase faces, but if you really must splash, these are your best options. In addition, the very idea of splashing runs counter to the idea of Budget deck.

The White Splash

Vindicate - This is just about the best card to splash for in builds running 4 Sinkholes. It works as one additional piece of land destruction, one that can deal with other problem permanents as well.

Gerrard’s Verdict – The one other contribution that white has to offer for this deck. Of course, selective discard is never be as strong as random discard, but this card may none the less be useful as two of in a White splash.

Swords to Plowshares - Do not run this card, even if you do opt to splash white. The life gain that your opponent gets when you Swords one of his creatures can cost games. Innocent Blood, Funeral Charm, Smother, Infest, and Spinning Darkness do the job of dealing with creatures just fine.

Wrath of God – Made obsolete in this deck due to the recent spoiling of Damnation.

The Red Splash

There are a decent number of cards that a red splash can offer this deck that work very well with the card Pox, Pyroclasm, Grim Lavamancer, and Lightning Bolt among many many others. Unfortunately, these cards all take up slots that are typically devoted to disruption and the focus instead becomes on abusing Pox to kill your opponent very rapidly. At that point we are talking about a different deck entirely, one that has more in common with traditional burn.

The Green Splash

Pernicious Deed – The only other splash worth considering is green, and this is the card that makes it worth considering. Deed is likely the strongest sweeper in the format, and it suits this deck very well.

Life from the Loam – This is another potent tool that green offers this deck. Not only can this card be discarded to Pox and Smallpox with impunity, but it can dredge lands (including Mishra’s Factories and Wastelands) into your graveyard and bring them back to your hand all for just two mana, a significant advantage over Crucible.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
For reference and to avoid confusion, here's how the thread began...

Black mages everywhere, Rejoice!!

Small Pox BB, Sorcery

Each player sacrifices a creature, discards a card, sacrifices a land and loses 1 life.

I think this card helps Pox tremendously, and a new build is in order...

20 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
4 Smallpox

4 Innocent Blood/Infest
3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Phyrexian Totem

There are literally about 50 billion cards that now work in Pox. The key is to find the very best combination of all of these to get at a build that has a shot against any matchup it may face game one, and completely wrecks that matchup post sideboard.

I really want to optimize the deck. Any advise would be appreciated.

[Tacosnape]

I'm going to be ridiculous and vote for The Rack here. 1 Mana to get out, can't be stopped by Pithing Needle, Stifle, or anything short of flat-out Disenchant-or-Deed style removal, and does its thing without any sort of mana assistance in the slightest. I think its effectiveness is boosted tremendously in a deck where we now have eight Pox-like effects, in addition to Hymn to Tourach.

I'm also a fan of both Chrome Mox and Innocent Blood. In fact, I'm a fan of Chrome Mox in ANY deck packing Smallpox, be it Pox or Deadguy. It allows you, on the DRAW, to cast, say, a turn one Smallpox, wrecking a Land, a Lackey, and a card, in one fell swoop, and it leaves you with a mana source on the table still.

This could also be Mox Diamond. With green. Imagine LoamPox.

[MasterBlaster]

I think we might start to see a resurgence in the popularity of Pox after TimeSpiral is released. Not only because of Small Pox, but also because of the new card Phyrexian Totem.

[laststepdown]

The problem would be with the synergy of Pox and keeping 3 land on the table to activate the totem-you can only run so many dark rituals.

[Tacosnape]

Phyrexian Totem doesn't exactly tickle my fancy in Pox. I mean, yeah, it's nice, but it takes 3 every time you activate (EDIT: See above. Curse your ninja-like stealth posting speed, laststep!). The nice thing about, say, Chimeric Idol, is that it doesn't tie up your mana to turn into a 3/3 beatstick, freeing you up to Pox and Hymn and Sinkhole to your heart's content.

I'm working on two builds currently. One is standard Pox with kills of Chimeric Idol, Nether Spirit, and The Rack. The other is a build with Squee and Zombie Infestation, which seems very attractive right now based on the fact that Pox will already have 8 self discard mechanisms in Pox/Smallpox. Zombie Infestation will double as a control mechanism and a kill condition, and allow you to balance your hand out for an optimal Pox. In addition, Squee and Nether Spirit's triggers can stack so that Nether Spirit still returns if Squee is in the graveyard.

14 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox

4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood
2 Buried Alive

4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Zombie Infestation
2 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol

SIDEBOARD:
4 Leyline of the Void (Graveyard recursion, Loam)
4 Duress (Combo, Landstill, any deck where Innocent Blood is useless)
4 Engineered Explosives (Kills Needle and other random annoying CMC 1 drops, as well as opposing Moxen should you face them.)
3 Pithing Needle (Stops Aether Vial)

This is tenative so far. Buried Alive might raise a few eyebrows, but it can fetch 3 Squee or 2 Squee/Nether Spirit. It makes cards like Pox and Smallpox significantly more in your favor.

[Aggro_zombies]

The build I'm currently messing with looks something like this:

Weezing

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

3 Nether Spirit

3 Pox
3 Smallpox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smother
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Infest
2 Phyrexian Totem
3 Chimeric Idol

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Oppression
1 Phyrexian Totem

It's nice to see some pseudo-bumpage on the Pox thread. I'm currently trying to retool my deck to be better in meta that's about 60%/40% combo/aggro, with a few random control decks thrown in to the mix and no aggro-control to speak of. The problem is, if I modify the maindeck to have a good game one combo matchup, I get steamrolled by aggro, and vice versa. Also, I really miss the draw of Phyrexian Arena, but...it makes you lose life, what can I say.

EDIT: one thing I noticed at the last tournament I played at was this deck's problem dealing with loads of fat. It can easily deal with x/2's and less, but if it's got an ass of 4 or more, a cmc of 4 or more, and they have other men to back it up, you're hosed. I wonder if that new Split Second Last Gasp-like card would be of any use here? It's worth a try.

EDIT2: updated the decklist with a theoretical new build. Geared towards beating aggro in the maindeck, but you can switch some things in and out to have it beat combo and control game one, depending on the meta. I played the anti-combo version of the deck at the last tournament and spent the day getting my ass handed to me by aggro decks. T_T More than half of the field was combo, and how many combo decks did I play? None! Oppression is anti-tech against Gobs, btw. >.>

[hrun]

When i think of decks that can REALLY take advantage of Small Pox, I think Ichorid..

Ichorid doesn't care if it loses lands, cards, or creatures. Now if only it could deal with grave-hate...

[SillyMetalGAT]

The point to Pox is that every spell you play should be able to be cast with Dark Ritual alone, making Ritual your MVP. Heres the list I ran at Philly.... as you can tell from reading it, I auto-won against Goblins.

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
3 Cursed Scroll

4 Pox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymm
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
3 E. Plague
3 Funeral Charm
2 Smother
2 Infest


SB:
3 Oppression
3 Haunting Echoes
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Infest
1 E. Plague
3 Massacre

Something like that. I can't remember exactly because it was almost a year ago. Unfortunatly, my teammate Bane_of_the_Living was playing it the night before in a tournament to get the 2-round bye when it got stolen. He was 2-0 in it too, his 3rd opponent was Goblins. He would have tromped them, but when he looked up, it was gone. Foil Wastelands, Beta Sinks, altered Infests, pretty much a money deck.

Anyways, The amazing thing about Pox is its flexability to the format. If you know your meta has a lot of combo, maindeck Oppressions, Cabal Therapy, Duress, Hymn to Tourach, and Racks. Playing a lot of Aggro? Throw in Infests, Smother, Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol, Cursed Scroll, and whatever else may tickle your fancy.

A really underestimated card is Contamination. Solidarity literally cries if that thing hits the board. Bait out the FoWs with some discard, then drop that card on them with Spirit in play and that equals GG 99% of the time. Some people are crafty enough to float mana, Wish for bounce yadda yadda yadda, but most people just scoop. Its also a house against Threshold, although its harder to cast because they play 10-12 counters. The other thing about Threshold is that they really dont mind discard as long as its not on their creatures. Discard = Quicker Threshold. Which blows, especially if your not packing Diabolic Edicts. Mongoose will smash your face all day if you can't pwn him early.

Goblins is by far the most fun deck to play against. When I played at Philly, I opened a hand like this: Swamp, Dark Rit, Dark Rit, E. Plague, Swamp, Spirit, Pox. I kept and went first, playing swamp, Rit, E. plague on goblins. My opponent got up and yelled judge because he thought I was cheating. The judge walked over and got my decklist, then laughed and said everything was fine. The kids face turned bright red and he went, playing mountain, vial. I drew into another E. Plague and it was GG. The kid was bullshit at me but whatever. THIS DECK TROMPS GOBLINS SOOO BAD! If you have a lot of Goblins in your meta, this is the deck to bring. You play Infest, Funeral Charm (lacky tech), Smother, and E. Plague. Hymns throw away their Gobs at a pretty fast rate if you see multiples. This deck is probably Goblins worst matchup. Pox = MVP too. They lose it all if they dont have Vial on the board.

As for Control, thats a tough one.... Its like facing the mirror. Whos going to make the first move? Nether Spirit is the man in this matchup. The only card you dont want to see is StP, but between Duress, Hymn, and Funeral Charm, you should be ok on that deal. Spirit can chump block ALL day and just laugh about it. Poxing against control is also nice, considering control only gets scarier the more land it has. LD is pretty key here, as is discard. You drop Idols late game with Spirits and beat face from there. Luckily though, there isn't too much pure control anymore.

Small Pox seems pretty nifty. Its definatly VERY powerful for its CC, and definatly warrants use. Its a house against Solidarity and Threshold, which is nice because those seem to be the DTB nowadays.

So, now I think i'll post a decklist of a solid Pox list from what I think.

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

3 Chimeric Idol
3 Nether Spirit
3 The Rack

4 Pox
4 Hymm to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
3 Small Pox
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Contamination

SB
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Oppression
3 Haunting Echoes
3 Engineered Plague
3 Infest


The list has a pretty strong maindeck against both Threshold and Solidarity, with an even better sideboard. The deck packs 15 LD effects, 10 creaure kill effects, and 17 discard effects. The Echoes is in there to completely own Threshold. They call it the Scoopmeister in Germany for a reason. Oppression puts the hurt on Combo. Crypt is there for Thresh and IGGy pop. E. Plagues and Infests round out the goblin matchup pretty easily.

Overall, Pox has the tools to become quite a contender, and hopefully Small Pox will be the extra oomph needed to make it viable. Just remember people, Pox Hard, Pox Fast!

[parallax]

In addition, Squee and Nether Spirit's triggers can stack so that Nether Spirit still returns if Squee is in the graveyard.


Just so you know, that doesn't work. Nether Spirit has an intervening-if clause, which means that if there are any other creatures in the graveyard, the triggered ability doesn't even go on the stack.

[Clark Kant]

A main thing that people have to keep in mind is that between Pox and Small Pox, we're going to be losing a ton of land ourselves. This means running 24 black sources counting chrome moxes plus 4 dark ritual is a must if we want to be able to cast the many 3cc cards in the deck like Chimeric Idol and others.

Another key question we have to answer is if it's better to run Dark Confidant and Hypnotic Specter, both of which have mad synergy with the deck, or if it's better to run Chimeric Idol and Nether Spirt which serve no disruptive role at all.

Also important to answer if Cursed Scroll is worth it. It eats up a ton of mana.

Other possibilities...

The white splash has always been amazing in Pox. Vindicate would allow for a full 20 land destruction cards while giving you a great out against everything.

So I'll definately squeeze that in somewhere.

[erdjinn]

I've been playing this decklist:

//Discard Spells
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
//Land Destruction
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
//Creature Destruction
4 Diabolic Edict
//Mass Disruption
4 Pox
//Creatures
4 Mindstab Thrull
4 Hypnotic Specter
//Damage Sources
4 The Rack
3 Cursed Scroll
//Mana Sources
17 Swamps
4 Dark Ritual

Total : 60 cards

I've always had close games which I often lost because I wasn't able to kill my opponent.
Props:
- Pox: Always MVP. I never draw enough of them. Small Pox seems a nice addition
- the Rack: cheap and effective, a must have
Slops:
- Mindstab Thrull: I've never damaged anyone with it, every opponent has a way to kill/bounce/... him

I felt the need for something recurring like Crucible of Worlds or Ichorid (but I have too few creatures for it).
Maybe Nantuko Shade or Mishra's Factory are worth a try but I haven't tryed them.


This could also be Mox Diamond. With green. Imagine LoamPox.

Mox Diamond is worth a try. Loam would be great but you cannot rely only on the Mox to cast it. I'd go with the Crucible instead.

Just my 0.02

[SillyMetalGAT]

A main thing that people have to keep in mind is that between Pox and Small Pox, we're going to be losing a ton of land ourselves. This means running 24-26 black sources plus 4 dark ritual is a must if we want to be able to cast the many 3cc cards in the deck like Chimeric Idol and others.

This isn't true. The thing that people need to know is when is the right time to Pox. The magic numbers for Pox are 1, 4, and 7. This means that if your opponent has 1, 4, or 7 cards in hand, lands in play, or creatures in play, you've maximized your Pox. If they have 1 of anything, they lose it. If they have 4 of something, they lose 2 of them. If they have 7 of anything, they lose 3. Remember to do things like hold land in your hand if your going to Pox, so you can at least recover. The other thing I noticed is that its typically not a good idea to play more than 3 swamps at a time, as this makes Pox that much worse for you. All you need is 3 lands in play to really be able to play any spell you topdeck.

As for the debate about Cursed Scroll, you only use it when your in topdeck mode... Its used as a kill condition.

I ran a build of Pox for a little while that ran Hyppie and Confidant, and it really comes down to your comfort level. Confidant makes the deck a lot more scuicidal, but increases consistency. Nether Spirit makes the deck more controlish, but also makes it more graveyard dependant, which may be something you want to steer clear of with all the Crypts being run as of lately.

Nether Spirit does in fact have synergy with Pox because it comes back from Pox aftermath, which is one of the reasons I don't run Confidant. Now the problem with using Scroll and Idol are that they leave 2/3rds of your kill conditions vulnerable to Needle, which can make for a REALLY bad day. Black also doesn't have artifact removal really, which could prompt for a white splash. The thing with Pox is that one of its strong points is its immunity to Wasteland. Adding white to the deck would give you more cards to use, but at the risk of getting wasted.... which isn't a good thing for this deck. at all. White also gives the deck StP, which I know I wouldn't complain about having.

[Alfred]

The thing about Smallpox is that you don't have to run a completely terrible manabase and deck built around it because it doesn't matter how many cards or lands you have in play. Smallpox is so much better in a control deck than Pox it makes my mind hurt.

Just make a Monoblack control deck with a lot of land, and more land distruction and add Smallpox as extra disruption, so that you don't have to use frigging Nether Spirit and Cursed Scroll as your kill conditions. The problem with Pox has always been that you have to run an otherwise terrible deck to accomodate Pox, which is no longer the case.

If you don't believe me about the deck, just look at it in the absence of Pox, it's awful.

[SillyMetalGAT]

The thing about Smallpox is that you don't have to run a completely terrible manabase and deck built around it because it doesn't matter how many cards or lands you have in play. Smallpox is so much better in a control deck than Pox it makes my mind hurt.

Just make a Monoblack control deck with a lot of land, and more land distruction and add Smallpox as extra disruption, so that you don't have to use frigging Nether Spirit and Cursed Scroll as your kill conditions. The problem with Pox has always been that you have to run an otherwise terrible deck to accomodate Pox, which is no longer the case.

If you don't believe me about the deck, just look at it in the absence of Pox, it's awful.

Without Pox, the deck looks like a monoblack build of Deadguy, Which is a pretty solid deck. I understand how you think Small Pox is better, but thats because its controlled. Half the reason you play Pox is because its a house. It has the potential to be 3 Small Poxes for 1 more mana. The creatures in the deck aren't exactly the best, but they get the job done.

[nitewolf9]

^ in that list, I'd cut the thrulls for negators, and the scrolls for crucibles.
Negator ends the game quickly, while having great synergy with crucible.

[SillyMetalGAT]

^ in that list, I'd cut the thrulls for negators, and the scrolls for crucibles.
Negator ends the game quickly, while having great synergy with crucible.

Funny you should mention Negator. I was thinking and I don't know much about the card, but what about replacing Chimeric Idol with the new Phyrexian Totem? Granted if your opponent plays Burn he's going to suck, but he would certainly put pressure on White Thresh and Solidarity.

[Alfred]

Without Pox, the deck looks like a monoblack build of Deadguy, Which is a pretty solid deck. I understand how you think Small Pox is better, but thats because its controlled. Half the reason you play Pox is because its a house. It has the potential to be 3 Small Poxes for 1 more mana. The creatures in the deck aren't exactly the best, but they get the job done.

It looks like Deadguy, yet without any of it's good threats, like Confidant or Nantuko Shade. In their places, a glacial clock of Cursed Scroll and Nether Spirit is added, which means that any deck has the potential of drawing out of the soft lock that it creates. Also, now you don't have to run the card disadvantage that is Dark Ritual.

[SillyMetalGAT]

It looks like Deadguy, yet without any of it's good threats, like Confidant or Nantuko Shade. In their places, a glacial clock of Cursed Scroll and Nether Spirit is added, which means that any deck has the potential of drawing out of the soft lock that it creates. Also, now you don't have to run the card disadvantage that is Dark Ritual.

You can run Confidant. You can run Shade. Nobody said you couldn't. The reason people run Cursed Scroll is because in addition to being a kill condition (not to mention if you get 2 of your kill conditions on the board, your doing 4-5 damage a turn to an opponent thats already at 10-13 because you Poxed them) Cursed Scroll also picks off creatures. Dark Ritual may be card disadvantage, but its amazing to go 1st turn Swamp, Ritual, Duress, Hymm. That rips your opponents hand down to 4. While you might be at 3 cards, you just fucked Combo completely, or you just ripped valuable card advantage from Threshold. Dark Ritual is a much needed card in order to keep up with the speed of such decks as IGGy pop, Solidarity, and Goblins. The whole point behind a Pox deck is to recover from Pox faster than your opponent, then deny them the ability to ever recover. Until you do that, I normally wouldn't drop a threat. The only exception to this really is 1st turn Nether Spirit to get around Lacky if you have no other option. Nether Spirit is also the most amazing creature to have with Contamination if you try it. It works really well for me

[Aggro_zombies]

Funny you should mention Negator. I was thinking and I don't know much about the card, but what about replacing Chimeric Idol with the new Phyrexian Totem? Granted if your opponent plays Burn he's going to suck, but he would certainly put pressure on White Thresh and Solidarity.
I would run both for consistency, and cut Scrolls for the totems. They both cost the same to activate, but the Totem deals five instead of two damage and can double as a black mana source in emergeny situations. Imagine having three lands and an Idol and Totem in play. Activate Totem, then activate Idol, then swing for eight. Post-Pox, that's going to leave them at five life...for three mana. Granted, you can't normally activate the Totem the same turn you Pox, but you can the next turn, so that makes up for it.

One thing I haven't thought of before is running Therapy. That's hawt with Nether Spirit in play. I might try Therapies in my sideboard to strengthen the combo matchup, which is okay right now but not tremendously great because my maindeck is geared towards beating aggro, so unless I get lucky, I usually have an uphill battle game one.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I would run both for consistency, and cut Scrolls for the totems. They both cost the same to activate, but the Totem deals five instead of two damage and can double as a black mana source in emergeny situations. Imagine having three lands and an Idol and Totem in play. Activate Totem, then activate Idol, then swing for eight. Post-Pox, that's going to leave them at five life...for three mana. Granted, you can't normally activate the Totem the same turn you Pox, but you can the next turn, so that makes up for it.

One thing I haven't thought of before is running Therapy. That's hawt with Nether Spirit in play. I might try Therapies in my sideboard to strengthen the combo matchup, which is okay right now but not tremendously great because my maindeck is geared towards beating aggro, so unless I get lucky, I usually have an uphill battle game one.

Yeah, that does sound pretty rediculous. Swinging for 8, sometimes 11 if Spirits in the yard is friggin silly. Therapy + Spirit = amazing. Swing 2, then sac to Therapy, strip their hand. Replay Spirit next turn. My decklist is more geared toward Combo/Threshold so I maindeck Therapy, but they could definately go in the SB.

Im really glad to see people getting hyped about Pox. Everytime I tried to bring it up, it got shot down.

[Alfred]

You can run Confidant. You can run Shade. Nobody said you couldn't.

Sure you can run them, but they both suck in this deck. Neither work well with Pox, and Shade is even worse because you don't want to play more than 3 lands! Building around Pox neccesitates using terrible win conditions, or risk making Pox too symmetrical.


The reason people run Cursed Scroll is because in addition to being a kill condition (not to mention if you get 2 of your kill conditions on the board, your doing 4-5 damage a turn to an opponent thats already at 10-13 because you Poxed them) Cursed Scroll also picks off creatures.

Cursed Scroll as a win condition is a peice of garbage. I agree it's great at controlling opponent's creatures, but when you are paying 3 mana and having to play the extra lands that you draw so that you can deal 2 damage to your opponent a turn, it's ass. Especially seeing as it isn't being used as a reach element that is difficult to deal with, like most Sligh decks do, because it is actually one of the main win conditions.


Dark Ritual may be card disadvantage, but its amazing to go 1st turn Swamp, Ritual, Duress, Hymm. That rips your opponents hand down to 4. While you might be at 3 cards, you just fucked Combo completely, or you just ripped valuable card advantage from Threshold. Dark Ritual is a much needed card in order to keep up with the speed of such decks as IGGy pop, Solidarity, and Goblins.

Swamp, Ritual, Duress & Hymn rips YOUR OWN hand down to 4, or even 3 if you are on the play. And in this deck, there are no good creatures that can take advantage of the momentary window that this discard creates. The only good play I can see with Dark Ritual is the fact that it makes Hypnotic Specter come out on the first turn, which is admittedly quite good. Other than that, Dark Ritual accelerates you into a whole lot of nothing at all.


The whole point behind a Pox deck is to recover from Pox faster than your opponent, then deny them the ability to ever recover. Until you do that, I normally wouldn't drop a threat. The only exception to this really is 1st turn Nether Spirit to get around Lacky if you have no other option. Nether Spirit is also the most amazing creature to have with Contamination if you try it. It works really well for me

What I'm saying is that Pox is fundimentally flawed deck. It is totally built around breaking the symmetry of Pox, which forces you to run a completely awful deck. Like, look at the manabase for christ sakes! The deck can't run over 21 lands because it doesn't want to play more than 3. There is no draw engine whatsoever, because aparently having more than 3 cards in your hand is a "bad idea". It runs probably the worst threats in the whole format because you don't want them to die from Pox. It also sucks against aggro because Pox takes away between 5-7 life when you cast it the first time, which means you made their job waaaay easier. It also sucks as removal too, because you are spending 3 mana to (most of the time) kill a single one of their creatures. That simply isn't efficient.

Smallpox is easily way better than Pox because you can put it into a Monoblack control deck, or virtually any control deck that can afford BB and not even think twice about it. Sure it may not be as "powerful", but it doesn't pigeonhole you into playing a suboptimal deck. It also does everything a Control deck would want: It's cheap creature removal, it kills a single land which is usually what Pox does anyway, it doesn't make you discard most of your hand and you lose a much smaller amount of life.


EDIT: If you really want to run a Pox deck, run a Smallpox deck, but build it more like a mono black control deck with a real draw engine, and like 25-26 lands. You can still run the hand disruption and land destruction, but you can also run good win condition, a draw engine and a stable manabase.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Swamp, Ritual, Duress & Hymn rips YOUR OWN hand down to 4, or even 3 if you are on the play. And in this deck, there are no good creatures that can take advantage of the momentary window that this discard creates. The only good play I can see with Dark Ritual is the fact that it makes Hypnotic Specter come out on the first turn, which is admittedly quite good. Other than that, Dark Ritual accelerates you into a whole lot of nothing at all.

Your playing the spells, meaning your getting the effect stated on the card. Even though your down to 3 cards, your opponent LOST 3 cards. What im trying to say is, you can remove 3 key cards from your opponents hand, while you lose 3 cards doing it, but thats ok because now your opponent doesn't have shit against you. Plus, you know whats in their hand. Thats huge! You may not beleive that this is a big thing, but it is.

The other thing is that this build isn't optimal. I run this because I see a lot of decks like Survival, IGGy pop, Threshold, Solidarity, and Keeper. Combo and Control. My build does good for me because of the hand and land disruption. Build Pox around your meta, dont follow what I write if you face a lot of Zoo, Goblins, and other aggro.

[Alfred]

Your playing the spells, meaning your getting the effect stated on the card. Even though your down to 3 cards, your opponent LOST 3 cards. What im trying to say is, you can remove 3 key cards from your opponents hand, while you lose 3 cards doing it, but thats ok because now your opponent doesn't have shit against you. Plus, you know whats in their hand. Thats huge! You may not beleive that this is a big thing, but it is.

The point is is that you are trading 3 cards in your hand for 3 cards in theirs. I may seem better for you, but I mean, what is the advantage that you hope to gain from it? I can sort of understand against Combo, but against everything else it just seems like wash, and against Goblins, they will probably even come out ahead!

Furthermore, Dark Ritual is a terrible topdeck, and for a deck with 0 draw engine to negate drawing it, they start adding up quickly. It's far worse than a real land, because the longer the game progresses the more valuable a permanent source of mana becomes, and this deck isn't winning very quickly at all. I guess it is good if you want to keep land light for Pox, but that's part of the reason I think Pox should be replaced.


The other thing is that this build isn't optimal. I run this because I see a lot of decks like Survival, IGGy pop, Threshold, Solidarity, and Keeper. Combo and Control. My build does good for me because of the hand and land disruption. Build Pox around your meta, dont follow what I write if you face a lot of Zoo, Goblins, and other aggro.

I just think that Pox is a poor deck all around, regardless of meta considerations. I think that with the printing of Smallpox, Pox can actually become an effective control deck, rather than a poor aggro/control deck. It is essentially a control deck right now, because it takes so long to win. With Smallpox you can run a stable manabase, a draw engine and a good win condition, while keeping a disruption suite in place.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Furthermore, Dark Ritual is a terrible topdeck, and for a deck with 0 draw engine to negate drawing it, they start adding up quickly. It's far worse than a real land, because the longer the game progresses the more valuable a permanent source of mana becomes, and this deck isn't winning very quickly at all. I guess it is good if you want to keep land light for Pox, but that's part of the reason I think Pox should be replaced.

You do know that when you have Cursed Scroll in play and are in topdeck mode, Dark Ritual isn't a waste? I know this sounds like a one-in-a-million, but it happens quite often. This deck relys on being in topdeck, thats when you start shelling out damage. Hopefully when your in topdeck so isnt your opponent. Try using a build on MWS, ill be glad to play against you sometime with it. Maybe you can prove me wrong, maybe you'll learn something about the synergy in this deck. This entire deck has synergy. I think your thinking of Small Pox in the wrong context. I would use it as Pox 5-8, since that is essentially what it is. The other thing is that are we certain this card is going to be printed?

If you think Pox is a bad deck, why post here? Make a new deck that doesn't use it and post it. For all I know, it could be better. But until then, Ill stick to Pox.

EDIT: Or give us some ideas to improve on it.

[Alfred]

You do know that when you have Cursed Scroll in play and are in topdeck mode, Dark Ritual isn't a waste? I know this sounds like a one-in-a-million, but it happens quite often.

A land accomplishes the exact same thing.


This deck relys on being in topdeck, thats when you start shelling out damage. Hopefully when your in topdeck so isnt your opponent.

Not being in topdeck mode is better than being in topdeck mode. If you had a draw engine, like Phyrexian Arena or Skeletal Scrying, you would draw even more disruption, rather than simply hoping you draw well throughout the game. Decks that are built around Pox can't use draw engines because they either cost too much mana, too much life or are non-synergistic with Pox's scaling discard. It isn't a coincidence that all of the good decks in the format use a draw engine of some sort, and this should go double for a deck that destroys it's own resources.


Try using a build on MWS, ill be glad to play against you sometime with it. Maybe you can prove me wrong, maybe you'll learn something about the synergy in this deck. This entire deck has synergy. I think your thinking of Small Pox in the wrong context. I would use it as Pox 5-8, since that is essentially what it is. The other thing is that are we certain this card is going to be printed?

Right now I'm finalizing the first installment of Battle of the Sets over on MTGSalvation, but once that is done and MWS is updated with TS cards, yeah, I'm going to build a Smallpox deck.


If you think Pox is a bad deck, why post here? Make a new deck that doesn't use it and post it. For all I know, it could be better. But until then, Ill stick to Pox.

EDIT: Or give us some ideas to improve on it.

I'm posting here because I'm trying to make this deck more viable, and I am giving ideas to improve apon it.

[Tacosnape]

Adding white to the deck would give you more cards to use, but at the risk of getting wasted.... which isn't a good thing for this deck. at all. White also gives the deck StP, which I know I wouldn't complain about having.

I would. Swords to Plowshares is godawful in Pox. Half the games you play come down to a swing of 1-2 life points. Anything, be it Fetchlands or STP, that helps move this life swing in favor of your opponent, is bad. If you want the 1-mana remover, try Innocent Blood. It's hot sex in Pox. The only reason for white in Pox is Vindicate and the incredibly sauceome Gerrard's Verdict, and even then it's personally not worth it to me.

Okay, now that I've realized Nether Spirit doesn't actually trigger if there's a Squee in the yard (Meh. I shouldn't make decks in the wee hours of the morning), at least I don't have to worry about hunting up four Squees. I think Nether Spirit is clearly the kill condition of choice, the question seems to be mostly regarding its backups (Idol, Scroll, Factory, Rack, Totem, Shade, Confidant.)

I don't like Scroll in this new Pox. Pox+Smallpox = too unlikely that I'll always have three mana to spare. Ditto for Phyrexian Totem. I like The Rack because it's insanely difficult to get rid of and does its dirty work time and time again for a single colorless mana, but I've never liked the dissynergy between The Rack and Sinkhole (Namely, if you deny your opponent the ability to play the spells in his hand, it's tricky to keep his hand empty.) I also like Chimeric Idol due to the fact that keeping mana untapped is never a priority for Pox, but relying on him too heavily would be risky, as Pithing Needle is something Pox can't get around. The same goes for Mishra's Factory. It's awesome, it's solid, it dies to Pithing Needle. You also can't run both Chimeric Idol and Mishra's Factory at maximum effectiveness, as you'd have to tap the Factory to swing with the Idol. I hate Shade/Confidant here, as they die to my own Pox/Smallpox.

So every alternate kill besides Nether Spirit has drawbacks. At the same time, it's a bad idea to rely entirely on Nether Spirit for the kill, as you're a bit of graveyard hate away from disaster.

So the question now would be, is it best to diversify the kill conditions broadly, running smatterings of Rack/Scroll/Factory/Idol/Etc, or is there some gem of a kill condition we haven't found yet?

[SillyMetalGAT]

I would. Swords to Plowshares is godawful in Pox. Half the games you play come down to a swing of 1-2 life points. Anything, be it Fetchlands or STP, that helps move this life swing in favor of your opponent, is bad. If you want the 1-mana remover, try Innocent Blood. It's hot sex in Pox. The only reason for white in Pox is Vindicate and the incredibly sauceome Gerrard's Verdict, and even then it's personally not worth it to me.

Okay, now that I've realized Nether Spirit doesn't actually trigger if there's a Squee in the yard (Meh. I shouldn't make decks in the wee hours of the morning), at least I don't have to worry about hunting up four Squees. I think Nether Spirit is clearly the kill condition of choice, the question seems to be mostly regarding its backups (Idol, Scroll, Factory, Rack, Totem, Shade, Confidant.)

I don't like Scroll in this new Pox. Pox+Smallpox = too unlikely that I'll always have three mana to spare. Ditto for Phyrexian Totem. I like The Rack because it's insanely difficult to get rid of and does its dirty work time and time again for a single colorless mana, but I've never liked the dissynergy between The Rack and Sinkhole (Namely, if you deny your opponent the ability to play the spells in his hand, it's tricky to keep his hand empty.) I also like Chimeric Idol due to the fact that keeping mana untapped is never a priority for Pox, but relying on him too heavily would be risky, as Pithing Needle is something Pox can't get around. The same goes for Mishra's Factory. It's awesome, it's solid, it dies to Pithing Needle. You also can't run both Chimeric Idol and Mishra's Factory at maximum effectiveness, as you'd have to tap the Factory to swing with the Idol. I hate Shade/Confidant here, as they die to my own Pox/Smallpox.

So every alternate kill besides Nether Spirit has drawbacks. At the same time, it's a bad idea to rely entirely on Nether Spirit for the kill, as you're a bit of graveyard hate away from disaster.

So the question now would be, is it best to diversify the kill conditions broadly, running smatterings of Rack/Scroll/Factory/Idol/Etc, or is there some gem of a kill condition we haven't found yet?

Im stickin to Spirit/Idol/Scroll until the Totem comes out, then I will probably go Spirit/Idol/Totem. Scroll is still the best option next to The Rack, even if you think your running too much self-land destruction. BTW, I have yet to have a problem with being mana light, even with 8 Pox effects. Your right about Innocent Blood though, I kinda forgot about that card. Is anyone else expiriencing mana problems with 4 Dark Rits, 17 Swamps, and 4 Wastelands?

I dont get why your so concerned with a draw engine, Alfred. Goblins doesn't run any draw besides Goblin Ringleader (unless you count Incinerators...) This deck doesnt need it. Think about it. You only have 21 dead cards, 17 of which are lands. so 1 in every 3 draws hypothetically, you'll draw a land. But your drawing 2 disruption spells in the process, weighing your opponent down until you find a threat to start beating face with.

[Alfred]

So the question now would be, is it best to diversify the kill conditions broadly, running smatterings of Rack/Scroll/Factory/Idol/Etc, or is there some gem of a kill condition we haven't found yet?

Haakon is a good kill condition, because he's bigger, and difficult to remove. In fact, if you run a deck with him and Phyrexian Totem, you could probably ditch Pox entirely, and go for Smallpox with a few Death Clouds, and some way to ramp mana up more quickly. Death Cloud still allows you to function as a control deck, yet is also more devistating against Combo than Pox, as you get to eliminate lands and cards in one fell swoop.

I would add green, both for mana ramping as well as Living Wish -> Boseiju, so that you can cast Death Cloud with impunity. Or maybe Burning Wish and red to get Death Clouds out of the board. I could even see this deck running a sort of 3 color control with Deeds, Burning Wish, etc. etc.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Haakon is a good kill condition, because he's bigger, and difficult to remove. In fact, if you run a deck with him and Phyrexian Totem, you could probably ditch Pox entirely, and go for Smallpox with a few Death Clouds, and some way to ramp mana up more quickly. Death Cloud still allows you to function as a control deck, yet is also more devistating against Combo than Pox, as you get to eliminate lands and cards in one fell swoop.

I would add green, both for mana ramping as well as Living Wish -> Boseiju, so that you can cast Death Cloud with impunity. Or maybe Burning Wish and red to get Death Clouds out of the board. I could even see this deck running a sort of 3 color control with Deeds, Burning Wish, etc. etc.

Haakon isn't a bad idea really. Death Cloud, however, is. It would be fine if it didn't cost so damn much. You have to remember that Death Cloud has a HUGE target on it counterwise. Also, you dont really want to go 2 colors with this deck because you again, run into wasteland problems unless you ran LftL or Crucible..... in which case, that wouldn't be for this thread. Burning Wish is a god awful idea. I would never play Burning Wish in a Pox deck. Burning Wish is like a Time Walk for your opponent when you only have 3 mana. Instead of trying to change this deck entirely, why not just change the kill conditions? Seriously I dont think you have any faith in this deck... So at least play with it before you try to change what it does entirely. If Pox wasn't a good card, why would there be a deck built around it?

[Clark Kant]

How are you getting away with running 21 lands (4 of which are wastelands so essentially 17 lands!) in a deck where eight cards cause you to sac your own lands.

That seems horrible. I mean even burn runs atleast 18 cards and their curve mostly tops off at 2 and they have Magma Jet to help find land. Our curve has tons of 3cc cards and 8 sac effects.

We need 23 lands min unless we run chrome mox.

Haakron IS a bad idea.

a.) He increases your reliance on the yard.

b.) He costs you two life everytime he goes to the yard, meaning you can't sac him to Pox with impunity.

c.) He cost 3 mana to recast each time he goes to the yard.

d.) You're better off running a traditional deadguy creature base along with 2 Volrath's stronghold than running Haakron.

A key question.

Chrome Mox or No.

The Good: It accelerates your whole gameplan by a turn, lets you Hymn turn one etc and thus lets you disrupt goblins and combo faster.

It lets you have four permanent mana sources on the board.

The Bad: It costs you a card in a deck without any card drawing.

[Bane of the Living]

GAT isnt getting away with 21 lands. Its a purposed decklist at the moment and testing with Small Pox has not begun. Im sure we'll need to add more lands or some moxen. Right now I like aggro zombies list the most but here is the one I came up with..

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit
2 Mox Diamond
3 Nether Spirit
3 Pox
3 Smallpox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smother
3 Innocent Blood
3 Infest
3 Phyrexian Totem

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
2 Smokestack
2 Engineered Plague
3 Trinisphere

[SillyMetalGAT]

GAT isnt getting away with 21 lands. Its a purposed decklist at the moment and testing with Small Pox has not begun. Im sure we'll need to add more lands or some moxen. Right now I like aggro zombies list the most but here is the one I came up with..

Actually, I did do testing when I got home..... Thats why I asked you to go online...... But anyways.

I actually took Small Pox out of the deck. Personally, I think its a waste of 4 slots that could be dedicated to something like more creature kill like Smother. I dont really like the fact that out of all the creature kill im running, none of its targeted removal. Also, Small Pox makes the deck too suicidal, and I often found myself with not enough lands.... like noted above from aggo zombies. So I decided to just remove Small Pox instead of trying to accomidate for it with Moxen and whatnot.... F that shit. You really dont need it. If anythign, the only card to add in is the Phyrexian Totem. Man that card is teh KNUTZ.

[Clark Kant]

Cutting Small Pox, that's crazy, crazier than running 21 lands even!!

Small Pox is Innocent Blood + Sinkhole + Funeral Charm all in one 2cc spell.

Not only does it have mad synergy with Pox,

It is a better card than Pox overall, though Pox is stronger in a deck built specifically around it.

If you want more removal, run Infest. It kills off their weenies so they have to sac their big guys both to this, Pox, and Innocent Blood.

Phyrexian Totem mostly seems okay at best. There's too many better kill cards like Chimeric Idol, Nether Spirit, The Rack and Cruicible.

And you certainly dont want to use up a disruption piece's slot for it.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Cutting Small Pox, that's crazy, crazier than running 21 lands even!!

Small Pox is Innocent Blood + Sinkhole + Funeral Charm all in one 2cc spell.

Not only does it have mad synergy with Pox,

It is a better card than Pox overall, though Pox is stronger in a deck built specifically around it.

If you want more removal, run Infest. It kills off their weenies so they have to sac their big guys both to this, Pox, and Innocent Blood.

Phyrexian Totem mostly seems okay at best. There's too many better kill cards like Chimeric Idol, Nether Spirit, The Rack and Cruicible.

And you certainly dont want to use up a disruption piece's slot for it.

Umm...... so your saying its better to run more mana sources but less disruption just to compliment Small Pox? There aren't any open slots in my decklist and im running 9 kill conditions. 3 Spirit + 3 Idol + 3 Totem. So I didn't cut any disruption for it. Your list however, did. Im running more disruption and I dont need Small Pox. Not to mention there isn't even comfirmation of this cards printing yet. So your all going to be quite dissapointed if its not made. If it is, then I retract this statement and may take a serious look at the card.

[Clark Kant]

Considering that there is an italian scan of it online from a site where many of their scanned ended up preview cards, I think it's pretty well confirmed.

Running Small Pox isn't cutting disruption. Small Pox is three disruption cards for the price of one. It's well worth upping your land count by 2 if you can play a card that does the work of three of your other cards.

Also, my build runs 4 Mutilate. If you want to cut something for Innocent Blood or Smother or Infest, cut that, not small pox.

[Bane of the Living]

I wouldnt run Mutilate since its slow and your other removal spells most likely leave only one man alive at a time. Making Mutilate a 1 for 1 trade at 4cc, above your curve.. I hate to play 4cc spells in this deck and now that Small Pox is in it you'd have to be a mad man to play more expensive spells. I think Crucible becomes a necessity when playing both poxes in conjunction as well as keeping Wasteland in the manabase. Totem will help keep mana on the table and so will some version of moxen. I prefer Diamond thanks to Crucible synergy. Mishras Factory should definitly be added as at least a 2 of for a recurring win condition.

Crucible of the Worlds is MVP. Everyone should at least test a build with it. Compare it to pox without it and see it as the bomb it is.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Considering that there is an italian scan of it online from a site where many of their scanned ended up preview cards, I think it's pretty well confirmed.

Running Small Pox isn't cutting disruption. Small Pox is three disruption cards for the price of one. It's well worth upping your land count by 2 if you can play a card that does the work of three of your other cards.

Also, my build runs 4 Mutilate. If you want to cut something for Innocent Blood or Smother or Infest, cut that, not small pox.


Can i have a link to this picture? I looked for it for hours and was unsuccessful.

[Goblin Snowman]

Out of curiosity, has Uba Mask been considered? It makes post Pox/Small Pox great, makes the Rack crazy, prevents people from recovering, and caan randomly screw a deck like Thres.. This is only for the builds running Crucible, since otherwise it'll screw you alot also.

[Aggro_zombies]

Can i have a link to this picture? I looked for it for hours and was unsuccessful.
Gatherer has been updated with Time Spiral and both Smallpox and the Totem are in there. So, testing can seriously commence once someone (not me, too lazy) throws together a patch for MWS. And yes, Crucible is a house, but...I found I just wasn't that impressed with it. Granted, I only ran it as a two-of in my old build, but I would rather draw a Spirit or an Idol than this outside of the early game. However, the addition of Phyrexian Totem and Smallpox may necessitate running it, since not doing so makes the deck pretty suicidal in terms of mana. Once the MWS patch comes out, I'll start messing with things.

[jiminycricket]

All the talk about exploing the symmetry of Pox and having to run bad cards to do so...what if we just used Pox in a different sort of shell? Haakon is a great idea, a creature that you don't care about discarding or sacrificing, and he makes everyone else you might discard or sacrifice that much better.

Perhaps using Pox and Smallpox as massive utility in a Haakon-style shell would work well. Haakon allows us to run some toolbox knights with evasion (flying) or first strike and ups the threat count by a great deal. Maybe a shell like

Haakon Pox
Lands
19xSwamp
4xWasteland

Creatures
4xHaakon, Stromgald Scourge
4xBlack Knight
3xOrder of the Ebon Hand
3xStromgald Crusader

Spells/Disruption
4xDuress
4xHymn to Tourach
3xSinkhole
4xDark Ritual
4xPox
4xSmallpox

Goblins and Aether Vial aren't so great to play against, but the list does very well against Thresh/Solidarity/Pikula. I found that The Rack/Chimeric Idol/Nether Spirits were just too glacial of a clock, and Phyrexian Idol seems too suicidal to me.

[Bane of the Living]

Haakon is terrible. Hes a 3/3 who dies to everything and has no good abilities. He has additional life loss for you to kill yourself with, he also NEEDS to be played from the yard. Nether can be played from your hand, he also comes back for free everyturn. Haakon also forces you to run other VERY shitty knights to try and work with him. Yuck.

This is not standard. Please dont get excited about every feesable T2 card. Pox needs to most efficient cards to work properly and Haakon has nothing to do with efficiency.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Haakon is terrible. Hes a 3/3 who dies to everything and has no good abilities. He has additional life loss for you to kill yourself with, he also NEEDS to be played from the yard. Nether can be played from your hand, he also comes back for free everyturn. Haakon also forces you to run other VERY shitty knights to try and work with him. Yuck.

This is not standard. Please dont get excited about every feesable T2 card. Pox needs to most efficient cards to work properly and Haakon has nothing to do with efficiency.

QFT. Haakon isn't good. Nether Spirit does what Haakon does like a million times better. Also, I dont get why people think that Phyrexian Totem costs too much. His activation is the same as Cursed Scroll, and that cards been run in Pox pretty much since it was printed.

On the other hand, Smallpox is a real card! This is very cool, but Im kinda hesitant about it. I dont think extra land is the way to go, but maybe something like Chrome Mox? Or maybe extra land + Crucible + Mox Diamond. Diamond would allow for 1st turn Sinkhole, which is AMAZING. Flat out rediculous. Or 1st turn Hymn, which is pretty damn good against combo.

[Clark Kant]

Yeah Chrome Mox is mentioned in my original post.

Now I'm having second thoughts though. With all the card disadvantage from Pox and Smallpox, I don't the deck can afford to lose another card for chrome mox. It's just too much card disadvantage.

I'm running 2 Phyrexian Totem. I think that's maximum but what do you guys think?

[Bane of the Living]

Thats why you should play Mox Diamond and Crucible of the Worlds. You get the mox accel without rfg'ing a good card. You get the land back with Crucible. It allows recurring removal (cabal pit) and recurring win conditions (mishras factory). Recurring ld is sooo good in pox by the way. (Wasteland). I urge anyone who hasnt tried it in the deck to give it a whirl.

[Clark Kant]

What does your manabase look like?

How do you support Wasteland+Factory+the BBB for Pox?

How do you support all the lifeloss from pox+lifeloss from cabal pit?

What happens when you don't have one of the 2-3 Crucibles you play in your opening hand, you have no real card draw, so how do you not get mana screwed after discarding away one of your only two lands?

Don't you pigeonhole yourself into situations where you can't cast Small Pox or Pox or Wasteland whenever you don't have a Crucible by running Mox Diamond?

[scrumdogg]

Crucible is the glue that holds playable Pox together. Running less than 3 is madness, I've run 4 before because it is that important to the deck. If it resolves, you just gained a distinct advantage. The life loss from Cabal Pit is negligible as it is usually a 2 of & there as back up removal that fortuitously taps for black mana if needed. 22-24 land is not a bad way to go in a deck that relies on having mana, especially recursive mana. 14-15 swamps, 2x Cabal Pit, 4x Wasteland, 2x Mishras Factory, 1-2x Ghost Quarter, 4x Dark Ritual is a very flexible base. Having land to recover from or pitch to a Pox or Smallpox lets you set up Crucible properly, at which point the 'card disadvantage' ceases to matter.

[Clark Kant]

Mox Diamond eats up a land in your hand. So what would have been a hand with 3 lands or 3 black sources if you were running Chrome Mox, would be essentially a hand with 2 lands if one of those lands was replaced with a Mox Diamond instead of Chrome Mox or just running land. This means you likely can't sac a land to Smallpox and you can't even cast Pox. You can't even cast Crucible to get the land you discarded to Diamond back.

I'm not saying don't run Crucible. I'm definately running it.

I'm just saying you can't rely on drawing it and being able to cast it every game. You may have it roughly half the games you play.

And the many games when the Mox Diamond isn't accompanied by a Crucible in play, Diamond is bad for you, very bad.

Also, all the colorless producers you play can't be a good thing. Most of this decks cards don't take colorless mana as payment be the cards be Hymn, Sinkhole, Pox or Smallpox. Wastelands are a must for obvious reasons, but I don't think I wouldn't run Factories just because you can't play a Pox off of two swamps and a factory.

[Clark Kant]

Sorry for the double post but the thread died when I would bet anyone that Pox is now a contendor in the format.

Here's my latest build. The first cards listed are what I'm personally running.

I believe the new card Smallpox adds a ton to Pox and I really want to optimize the deck. Any advise would be appreciated.

18 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit

4 Chrome Mox/Dark Ritual/Mox Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy/Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
4 Smallpox

4 Innocent Blood/2 The Rack & 2 Funeral Charm/2 Infest & 2 Crucible/2 Spinning Darkness & 2 Cursed Scroll/Tons of other options I forgot.
4 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol
2 Phyrexian Totem

There are literally about 50 billion cards that now work in Pox. The key is to find the very best of all of these.

To the people not running Nether Spirit, I'm not sure you guys realize just how good that card is.

If you discard it to Small Pox, it comes into play the next turn, if you sac it, if you chump block with it, whatever happens to it short of Swords, it always comes back into play rather than just into your hand like Squee. Not only does it nuetralize the discard/card disadvantage of small pox, it is one of the most annoying creatures to play against, for anyone not running 4 Swords.

[Benie Bederios]

Allthough Nether Spirit is very good in the deck, I don't want to run 4. If you have 2 in the graveyard it won't come back anymore, and with all the selfdiscarding and destruction, you will get 2 in yard. I'm not sure on Phyrexian Totem too. Sure it's a fast clock and taps for mana, but I would rather run Phyrexian Negator then. The great thing about Chimeric Idol is that it blocks and his activationcost is 0. This way you can play spells in your turn and then attack or pass the turn and he is able to block. Totem will cost 3 mana to activate, wich leaves you with the choice or play disruption or attack( you rarely will have 5 or mana without Ritual.)

So I would run as kill:

2 Nether Spirit
4 Chimeric Idol
2 Cursed Scroll

Then in the Innocent bloodspot I would play 2 Crucible and 2 other. You also play Cabal Pit. This with wasteland can stop alot of decks and it isn't affected by Pox.

For the rest very nice list.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Why not just go:

3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
3 Cursed Scroll

That way you are pretty much guaranteed to see a kill condition in your game. 3 Nether Spirit isn't bad. I very rarely ran into the problem of having 2 in the yard. I mean, he does come back every turn, which means your opponent would have to kill 2 on the board, or kill 1 and rip 1 from your hand/library.

[Bane of the Living]

I think sb'ing the 4th Spirit is the way to go against decks running StP.

[Aggro_zombies]

So, I've been messing with the Pox deck a little bit, and I've come to the conclusion that Smallpox is t3h suxx0rz against Goblins. It's sorta like Diabolic Edict or Innocent Blood, in that they'll just sacrifice a token or a Matron or something like that, but it messes you up more than it messes them up...so, I've moved it to the sideboard since Goblins is so prevelant and does so well in my meta (surprisingly, Goblins won the last tournament around here). Here's the list I've begun testing:

Weezing Again
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit
2 Mox Diamond

3 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Funeral Charm
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smother
4 Infest
3 Pox
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Smallpox
2 Oppression
4 Leyline of the Void

Any suggestions? I'm worried that I'm win condition-light, but I'm not sure I want to add Mishra's Factories back in because of my painful previous experiences overloading on colorless mana. It may be better this time around, though, with Moxen and Totems backing me up. We'll see...

[SillyMetalGAT]

If you dont like using the Totems, why don't you play with Mishra's Factory?

[Clark Kant]

Aggro Zombies, I have one suggestion, sub out Innocent Blood for Smallpox.

You say your meta is so goblins heavy and they'll just sac a token to Smallpox but you run Innocent Blood which lets them do the same thing.

Do you know why Deadguy does decent against goblins, because of all the disruption/mana denial. Smallpox lets you run more land destruction than Deadguy ever ran. The creature destruction and discard are just gravy, though they're solid too.

You will win many games against goblins just by mana screwing them.

I also suggest cutting 1 Crucible and running either Pox or Smallpox as a 4 of. Since Pox tends to really hurt goblins, I guess in your meta, Pox should be the 4 of.

Also, this goes to everyone, but for the love of god, please up your land count.

Any deck running a curve with many 3cc cards MUST play 22 lands as a bare minimum.

Pox, Wasteland, Smallpox, Mox Diamond, Cabal Pit all require that you play more than the 22.

You're just asking to be mana screwed many games by cutting away lands.

[Negator131]

Have we entirely ruled out splashing another color in this deck?

Is a more graveyard-based build necessarily bad if it's for good cards? ie not Haakon, Stromgald Scourge.

[Benie Bederios]

I agree with Clark Kant completely and I found his list the best so far. The power of Pox is that it can recover from Pox faster than the opponent. For this reason you need alot of lands. Also you need to run 4 Pox, periode, it's your killcondition( the reason why you can play with smaller and less other killconditions) because 2 poxes/poxen(?) can deal 12 damage to an opponent. This is also the reason why this deck doesn't need to run Phyrexian Totem, you don't have to deal much damage. I do run Phyrexian Negator in the board to speed up the clock with some matchups.

@ Negator: Splashing a color( white) is a possibility, but remeber that you have a card in the deck that costs BBB and alot BB. But white for Vindicate and Disenchant might be an option.

[Negator131]

I was thinking of splashing Green, actually. For Life from the Loam and sideboard options. Loam would open up the possibility of a legitimate draw engine, and give you something proactive to do in the turns spent recovering from Pox or Smallpox. Also, it would provide a way to recur lands used for other purposes than Poxing, ie Wasteland and Cabal Pit. Loam also has amazing synergy with Mox Diamond. Also, Loam lets you cut Crucible, a 3-drop card which you could usually be doing better things than casting, ie. disrupting your opponent.

My personal modifications to Clark Kant's latest list (also the best in this thread IMO):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
6 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
1 Polluted Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit

3 Mox Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
4 Smallpox

4 Life from the Loam

3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Phyrexian Totem

-1 Nether Spirit
+1 Chimeric Idol

-1 Mana Acceleration Slot (only 3 Mox Diamond)
+1 Land Slot (up to 25 land)

-4 Metagame Slots (4 Innocent Blood/2 The Rack & 2 Funeral Charm/2 Infest & 2 Crucible/2 Spinning Darkness & 2 Cursed Scroll/Tons of other options I forgot.)
+4 Life from the Loam

Especially if Crucible sees play in this deck, this should be a purely good change, as it adds slight manabase inconsistency for a draw engine, more options in the sideboard and more resiliency to Pox and Smallpox. What does everyone think?

[Clark Kant]

I haven't tested it but the build looks awesome.

I agree, Life of the Loam maybe a great way to get genuine card advantage engine.

I would love to hear back from you about the number of swamps after you play a little though.

I would think 4 Life would let you get away with cutting to 23 lands (or 24 lands), rather than upping to 25, but I'm not sure.

[Parcher]

What I have added to hurt Goblins(mainly Vial) is Powder Keg. Aether Vial can ruin the LD plan for you. It also pops at Zero to blow Chalice. Chalice for one shuts down a third of this deck, and there are several decks that can drop it on turn 1-2. And a two casting cost, it is easy to play, and never hurts you.

[Clark Kant]

Chalice for 1 shuts down a grand total of 4 cards (Cabal Therapy/Duress) in most builds.

As for clearing away creatures, I would look at Necroplasm, or probably the best option of all either Infest (I sideboard 4) or Withering Wisps (just sub out swamps for snowcovered swamps), both of which are far faster than Powder Keg and hit all the goblins, not just some of them.

[Koby]

If you know that goblins (or thresh for that matter) are really big in your area, then you should probably gloss over the Nether Spirit/Chimeric Idol route.

There are much better creatures for dealing with aggro that Pox can use. Plague Spitter and Necroplasm absolutely wreck these decks. Necroplasm is essentially a walking, living Powder Keg, and it's recurable. It's also a halfway decent clock (hit for 9 damage over 3 turns). Plague Spitter wreck goblins rather easily. It kills all the x/1's and forces Goblins to hold back and build up. This allows you to just can Pox and wrath them anyway.

On a side note about win conditions: I've found that most of my games were won by The Rack damage alone. A good mid-game Pox will end up dealing 4 damage on average once you factor in The Rack.

The strength of this deck is that Pox can be cast on either turn 1 or turn 2 and literally ruin your opponent's game. The loss of potentially 4 cards on the first turn is huge. (creature + land + 2 cards in hand) Pox is specifically designed to take advantage of the low resource game by attrition. This, of course, doesn't leave very many viable kill conditions. The artifacts are necessary to circumvent that. The Rack is passive and cheap mana cost, while Chimeric Idol is cheap to activate (and hits for roughly 1/4th the opponent's life total after a Pox). Both are usefull, but not necessarily together.

I think we can all agree that the basic shell of Pox should look like this:

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Pox

Additions should really be based on your expected metagame. Against Aggro, more board control elements such as Powder Keg, Necroplasm, Plague Spitter, Smother, Innocent Blood, etc, are good choices. Against control, Funeral Charm, Phyrexian Negator/Totem, The Rack are great. There is not going to be a singular Pox deck that fits into every metagame, so don't look for one.

[Clark Kant]

Most metagames aren't strictly aggro or strictly control or strictly combo. You can expect to see a little of everything. Thus there is an ideal Pox list out there, a list that can deal with most any matchup, and can be tuned against it even more so post sideboard. That's the list we're trying to develop here.

Yes Pox is incredible, why aren't you running 4?

Also, please go through the last page as we already covered most of this, mainly.


Also, this goes to everyone, but for the love of god, please up your land count.

Any deck running a curve with many 3cc cards MUST play 22 lands as a bare minimum.

Pox, Wasteland, Smallpox, Mox Diamond, Cabal Pit all require that you play more than the 22.

You're just asking to be mana screwed many games by cutting away lands.

The Rack is awesome, but it is a win more card, as is Funeral Charm. Mainly, if you have your opponent low on cards and can wait a few turns for the Rack to kill them, that means they're also low on threats. In that position, any thing can win you the game. I think you're better off running stuff like Nether or Idol since they can chump block all day long too, or Phyr Totem since it can end the game in just two activations while serving as a mana source.

[Parcher]

Chalice for 1 shuts down a grand total of 4 cards (Cabal Therapy/Duress) in most builds.

Almost every list runs both Funeral Charm and Dark Ritual. That's twelve. A great deal also run either The Rack or Cursed Scroll. That's sixteen. Any Stax, 5/3, Faerie Stompy, or board control deck is going to drop a Chalice at 2 as well, which is game over with no way to remove it.



As for clearing away creatures, I would look at Necroplasm, or probably the best option of all either Infest (I sideboard 4) or Withering Wisps (just sub out swamps for snowcovered swamps), both of which are far faster than Powder Keg and hit all the goblins, not just some of them.

Why would anyone run Powder Keg to kill creatures in a Pox deck? You run it to stop Aether Vial against Goblins, as that one card negates all land destruction, and in conjunction with Ringleader negates discard as well. And set at Zero, it kills Chalice of course, and completely ends Affinity

[AnwarA101]

The Rack is awesome, but it is a win more card, as is Funeral Charm. Mainly, if you have your opponent low on cards and can wait a few turns for the Rack to kill them, that means they're also low on threats. In that position, any thing can win you the game. I think you're better off running stuff like Nether or Idol since they can chump block all day long too, or Phyr Totem since it can end the game in just two activations while serving as a mana source.

The question is how to structure the deck so that win conditions are optimal. Given that Small Pox and Pox make it virtually impossible for you to keep creatures in play why not go with the Mox Diamond acceleration and run manlands specifically Mishra's Factory? You can also run Crucible of Worlds which allows Wasteland recursion as well as bringing back your Factorys for the win. If you play Crucible and Mox Diamond and Phyrexian Totem you can have a potent clock. The mana base could be something like -

18 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond
4 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds

Totem doubles as mana and win condition as does Mishra's Factory. You essentially evade the drawback of losing lands with Crucible, Totem, and Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond also allows for a splash, but which color?

[Peter_Rotten]

Totem doubles as mana and win condition as does Mishra's Factory. You essentially evade the drawback of losing lands with Crucible, Totem, and Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond also allows for a splash, but which color?

Obviously Blue for Standstill! Duh! No, seriously, probably White for StP and Disenchant and maybe Vindicate (but not likely).

[Aggro_zombies]

The question is how to structure the deck so that win conditions are optimal. Given that Small Pox and Pox make it virtually impossible for you to keep creatures in play why not go with the Mox Diamond acceleration and run manlands specifically Mishra's Factory? You can also run Crucible of Worlds which allows Wasteland recursion as well as bringing back your Factorys for the win. If you play Crucible and Mox Diamond and Phyrexian Totem you can have a potent clock. The mana base could be something like -

18 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond
4 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds

Totem doubles as mana and win condition as does Mishra's Factory. You essentially evade the drawback of losing lands with Crucible, Totem, and Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond also allows for a splash, but which color?
This looks interesting, but I'm slightly leery of having two win conditions, both of which are vulnerable to Pithing Needle. Are you advocating taking out Nether Spirit for this? If you're running both Pox and Smallpox, it doesn't seem like Spirit will stay in play long enough to be useful as an attacker. It's a pity it doesn't have haste...and if you're running Factories, running Chimeric Idol isn't smart. Guardian Idol, perhaps? I'm just nervous about having so few kills.

That said...26 lands?! Yikes, especially in a deck without card drawing. Mana flood ftl? I wouldn't go above 24 even with the Moxen. Hell, my Astral Slide deck runs 26 lands and 8 of those are cycling lands you really don't want to play. 24 lands, 3-4 Mox, 4 Totem, maybe 2-3 Guardian Idol, and you have all the mana you could ever want.

As for the color issue - I really hate the idea, but it has merit, especially with Moxen. The only two colors that really bring anything useful are white (already discussed, I believe) and green. Green gives us Naturalize, Deed, and Regrowth. Deed is great as a way to sweep the board, but it will always eat your Moxen and can quite often eat your Crucibles, Totems, etc. Regrowth would be awesome - you could regrow a Pox and play it again, regrow a slain Totem, regrow an Infest or Hymn or Sinkhole or...well, you get the point. Powder Keg would be the safer Deed-esque option, but it is also vulnerable to Needle. There is also the aforementioned LftL draw engine.

One thing I'm worried about with running Pox and Smallpox is life loss. Your life total will drop like a rock since you have no lifegain but lots of ways to lose it. I don't want to drag the Zuran Orbs back out, but is there some other way around it?

EDIT: now that I think about it, the "three mana to cast or less" rule can probably be relaxed somewhat with all the acceleration in the deck. This leads me to wonder about potentially having Persecute as a sideboard card. It's nuts against mono-color decks and pretty good against most combo (play it for black with IGGY Pop, blue for Solidarity, red for Thunder Bluff, etc. It sucks hardcore against Salvager's Game, but then, so does Oppression...). Here's the list I think I might throw together:

14 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
4 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
3 Smother
4 Infest
3 Pox
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Phyrexian Totem

SB:
4 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Oppression
3 Powder Keg
2 Persecute

Thoughts?

[AnwarA101]

That said...26 lands?! Yikes, especially in a deck without card drawing. Mana flood ftl? I wouldn't go above 24 even with the Moxen. Hell, my Astral Slide deck runs 26 lands and 8 of those are cycling lands you really don't want to play. 24 lands, 3-4 Mox, 4 Totem, maybe 2-3 Guardian Idol, and you have all the mana you could ever want.


The thing is that 26 lands is quite alot, but very few decks have 8 cards that destroy their own lands. I played 21 lands in my old Pox build and that deck ran 4 Dark Rituals. I don't think its that much of a stretch, perhaps 17 swamps is enough dropping you to 25 mana sources, but remember you are playing both Pox and Small Pox each of those cards will cost you a land at least.

[Clark Kant]

The problem with stuff like Mishra's Factory is that eats up one of you land drops, unlike say Phyrexian Totem or Chimeric Idol, or Nether Spirit. Heck Nether Spirit is 0cc if you discard it to Small Pox or Pox.

You have to use your land drops to replay the Swamps you had to sac in order to be able to cast your disruption. You can't afford to use those land drops to play Factories bc you can't play most of your spells without 2 or 3 swamps in play.

Recurring Factories requires using your land drops on them while Nether Spirit recur for free. If it provided on color mana like Phyrexian Totem so you could play Pox with it, I would be fully on board, but as is, Factory seems slow.

[AnwarA101]

The problem with stuff like Mishra's Factory is that eats up one of you land drops, unlike say Phyrexian Totem or Chimeric Idol, or Nether Spirit. Heck Nether Spirit is 0cc if you discard it to Small Pox or Pox.

You have to use your land drops to replay the Swamps you had to sac in order to be able to cast your disruption. You can't afford to use those land drops to play Factories bc you can't play most of your spells without 2 or 3 swamps in play.

Recurring Factories requires using your land drops on them while Nether Spirit recur for free. If it provided on color mana like Phyrexian Totem so you could play Pox with it, I would be fully on board, but as is, Factory seems slow.

Nether Spirit is the definition of slow. Its a creature that when it dies comes back during your next upkeep and then swings the turn after that? It also is about as slow as Factory, but at least Factory can pump other factories as well as being a land that can be pitched to Mox Diamond in the early game and in the mid game come back via Crucible. I'm not saying that Factory is the optimal card, because I'm not convinced that's true, but I don't think the problem with it, is that its slower than Nether Spirit.

It also should not eat up land drops if you are using Mox Diamond and it helps you cast Totem which will provide black mana along with 17-18 black sources should be enough to cast your mana intensive spells.

[Bane of the Living]

Keep pox mono black. Theres no reason to completely screw your mana for an off color card. Small Pox means you dont need Vindicate. Innocent Blood is better than Swords. Stay black.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Nether Spirit is the most efficient creature for Pox. Its the only one your going to see that comes back consistently after Pox. Sure its slow, but hes fuckin reliable man. I can't see how people would rather play a creature that dies to their own Pox, only to not be able to recur it. Thats just silly. Stick to Spirit and Factories if you play Crucible. That there should be more than enough. I think people forget the fact that after you Pox your opponent, they are at 13 life or less... so Nether Spirit doesn't have to swing 10 times.... He's not that slow.

@Anwar: Factory may pump other factories, but it really sucks to draw multiples as it is. Colorless mana FTL. Hopefully Diamond will fix that, but only testing will show.

[fearphage]

Is the life loss of Skeletal Scrying (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=skeletal_scrying) too much to handle post Pox? I was considering it as a late game refueler as a 1-2 of.


Stay black.
http://www.ishkur.com/sports/olympicmoments03.jpg
I have to agree with bane 100%

[Icon Of Sin]

Nether spirit is a brilliant finisher in this deck and it has great synergy with pox so there should be no question about running it. However it should not be run alone as it is vulnerable to stp/graveyard hate/having two in the grave at once. You don't want to lose the game once you've established control just because your finisher is unusable and you happened to draw first.

The options for secondary finishers are the rack; negator totem; cursed scroll; mishra's factory and chimeric idol.

The rack is very good only if you're opponents hand is empty or near empty, in this situation, you could end the game with anything and I think a finisher should be useful even when you're not winning. The only advantage it has over the other finishers here is immunity to pithing needle.

Negator totem has the potential of a very fast clock and it can produce mana. My problems with it are threefold: once you have 3 mana you don't need any more in this deck; it can't always block and when it can you need to sacrifice stuff; once you've sacrificed your lands you can't attack with it. you also have no way to recur this.

Cursed scroll is hard to remove and can stop opposing creatures but like the negator, it needs mana to do this and it also isn't completely reliable, it is however a lot better than the rack.

Chimeric idol is slightly smaller than the negator totem and doesn't produce mana but it also doesn't require mana to activate. Unfortunately, like the negator, if it gets killed whilst blocking for example you can't recur it, and it has poor synergy with mishra's factory.

Mishra's factory is great because it can run off one other land, can be recurred with the crucible and pump other factorys. It is useful in the early game because it can be pitched to a mox or produce mana. The disadvantages are: vulnerability to wasteland and using up a land drop whilst not producing black mana and ofcourse lack of synergy with chimeric idol.

In conclusion, I would say that in the crucible/diamond build a factory is much better because it can so easily be recurred. Without the crucible however, chimeric idol is the best because it is the most useful when you aren't winning and very reliable when you are.


I also have some other suggestions for cards:
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale could be used in the sideboard against decks with aether vial to prevent them having more creatures than they have lands.

Pithing Needle could also be used against aether vial but it also has maindeck uses against fetchlands. Many decks run very few basics and if you shut down their fetches with needles it is easy to wastelock them.

This brings me to the idea of using fetches in the deck, they would thin out the excessive numbers of swamps slightly and allow you to draw more power in the late game. Especially with a crucible. The life loss from the fetches might be too much however so perhaps terramorphic expanse could be used instead (the lands come into play tapped but you want them for the deck-thinning not the mana)

I think pox is a really fun deck to play and smallpox could make it quite competive.

[mmmetaphor]

Has anyone tested Dimir Machination in this deck? There seems to be a fair amount of 3cc drops that could be searched for with it's transmutation ability:

-pox
-crucible
-nether spirit
-chimeric idol
-phyrexian totem
-e. plague
-perish
-infest
-oppression

I'm sure I missed some. I haven't tested this but i plan on it, my only concern is that Machination might be a bit too slow.

[Benie Bederios]

After quite some testing, I'm not really satisfied about Small Pox. Sure it can be devastating, but it's too symetrical. You can't really get the advantage out of it as you can with Pox. When I was thinking of cutting cards, Small Pox is almost always the one. I'm now testing without it.

About the kill condition, at the moment I'm running( I'm running a version without Crucible):

4 The Rack
2 Nether Spirit
4 Chimeric Idol

I think it's important I chose killconditions that 1) weren't affected by Pox and 2) Disruption of there own. For this reason I didn't choose Phyrexian Totem. It's only a fast clock next to being unnafected to Pox, but it doesn't do anything when you are loosing. I chose not to run Crucible, because although it's a strong card, I didn't have enough room in the deck. I try to squeeze some in, but having 2 without draw is too random for me. For this reason I don't play Factory. Also I would like to keep my non-basics to a minimum.

The Rack is one of the strongest cards of the deck. If you can slap 1 or 2 down it's definitly disruption. Opponents want to have multiple threads to dodge Pox, but the rack punish them for it. It is not a win more.

The other kills are disruption because they can block opponents creatures and live to tell about it.

About The Tabernacle, it can be played but again I'm not playing Crucible so it is hard to keep around( maybe I need to fit them in, but I don't know where.) As for fetchlands: do you mean the Fetchlands of Mirage? Bad River and Rocky Tar Pit? At Machination, I would play Infernal Tutor over it( because most of the time you're in topdeck anyway.) But I found them both suboptimal. The only reason I would splash another color would be to fight enchantments, not for Vindicate or Swords to Plowshare.

How would the Sideboard look like?
You could play Chalice( against combo) just board out Innocent Blood and play it for 1. Not sure, but I think Solidarity will have more problem with it than you.
Phyrexian Negator. With people boarding out removal and holding counters for Pox, this beast can punish them for it. Also nice against combo.
Gate to Phyrexia. Only one of 2 monoblack cards that can kill artifacts( I think.) Very good with Nether Spirit.
Than usual cards: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Infest???, Dystopia???, Chains of Mephistoteles( or something)???

[Clark Kant]

How is Smallpox symmetrical?

You run 0 creatures that you have to sac, they always lose a creature.

You also run Sinkhole, Wasteland and Pox. So, you lose one land. They lose their last and final land and are unable to cast anything afterwards.

It's the definition of synergy. The only reason it would feel symmetrical is if you're not running enough lands in your list to properly be able to recover from Smallpox and Pox, which unfortunately many of you are not.

I also don't think that The Rack counts as disruption. Phyrexian Totem lets you recover from Pox faster, just like running extra lands does. Thus in a way it's disruption, because it's what enables you to cast your disruption without hesitation.

I like Negator in the side and Chalice is an interesting idea. If you're running only 2 Nether Spirit or even 3, Gate to Phyrexia is useless a lot of the time. What artifacts do you fear so much? Equipment? Just bring in more creature destruction?

[APriestOfGix]

This is my current list ment for mostly control and random aggro.


19 x Swamp
4 x Wasteland

3 x Nether Spirit
3 x Contamination
4 x Dark Ritual
4 x Duress
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Smallpox
4 x Pox
4 x Innocent Blood
3 x Chimeric Idol
4 x Sinkhole

SB:
3 x Cursed Scroll / Rack
4 x E. Plague
4 x Leyline of the Void
4 x Cabal Therapy

[Clark Kant]

With no real card draw and no tutoring, I can't see how you can possibly ensure that you have a Nether Shadow everytime you have Contamination.

You only run 3 Nether Shadow, and Contamination is a dead draw if you don't have Nether Shadow to accompany it, even when you do, its dead when your opponent is black or is playing Affinity or 5/3 or something.

If you really want to lean heavier on the mana denial route, you could just as easily run Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistence (just off the top off my head to supplement all your land destruction).

Otherwise, the build looks perfect.

[APriestOfGix]

With no real card draw and no tutoring, I can't see how you can possibly ensure that you have a Nether Shadow everytime you have Contamination.

You only run 3 Nether Shadow, and Contamination is a dead draw if you don't have Nether Shadow to accompany it, even when you do, its dead when your opponent is black or is playing Affinity or 5/3 or something.

If you really want to lean heavier on the mana denial route, you could just as easily run Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistence (just off the top off my head to supplement all your land destruction).

Otherwise, the build looks perfect.



The build before this was:

- 3 contamination
+1 swamp
+2 Phyrexian Totem


thoughts...

[Aggro_zombies]

I was never impressed with Contamination. Usually when I played it, it was an act of desperation to prevent combo deck X from going off in my face...in other words, Solidarity. There are very few decks that are absolutely devastated by it, and it slows you down by requiring you to sacrifice your Nether Spirit every turn.

As for Dimir Machinations: it's bad. The tutoring is good, sure, but...you usually can't cast what you went for that turn, and if you go for Pox or something like that, they know it's coming and can brace for impact. Also, if you're not transmuting it, it's pretty bad against stuff that isn't combo.

[scrumdogg]

Contamination was amazing for us as it wrecks most decks in the format if you set up the lock. Of course, we were running Crucible (why would anyone cut this card in Pox, btw, as it negates all the 'symmetrical' LD???) and Factories, which provide a nice alternate way to set up Contamination Lock.

[APriestOfGix]

in my build above where would i fit the crucibles in and how many, also how many man lands?

if that were the route to go?

[Clark Kant]

The build before this was:

- 3 contamination
+1 swamp
+2 Phyrexian Totem


thoughts...

Lol. Considering that that would make the build card for card identical to the build that I posted I was running in my opening thread, of course you know I'm going to say that I think the build is perfect.

How has it been working for you?

Edit: Forgot to mention that I went back to running Duress over Cabal Therapy. I think Duress is overall the stronger card anyway you look at it.

Still not sure on the Dark Ritual vs. Chrome Mox debate. What're everyone else's thoughts on this subject?

[Icon Of Sin]

The Rack is one of the strongest cards of the deck. If you can slap 1 or 2 down it's definitly disruption. Opponents want to have multiple threads to dodge Pox, but the rack punish them for it. It is not a win more.

The rack does almost nothing in this deck. It's not even a real finisher as your opponent can just hold back cards. If the rack is dealing damage to your opponent that means that his hand is nearly empty. If his hand is empty because it's in his yard, you've already won, If his hand is empty because he's played it out and is attacking every turn then 3 damage every upkeep isn't going to save you.

If you have multiple racks out then at best you've spent 2 cards and 2 mana to make your opponent lose 3 cards of his choice. I'd rather have hymn personally.


Contamination was amazing for us as it wrecks most decks in the format if you set up the lock. Of course, we were running Crucible (why would anyone cut this card in Pox, btw, as it negates all the 'symmetrical' LD???) and Factories, which provide a nice alternate way to set up Contamination Lock.

I'm not sure about this strategy, it seems to me that whilst you're sacrificing your win conditions, your opponent will craft a lethal hand and then play a crypt/vial it's good tech vs solidarity though.


Edit: Forgot to mention that I went back to running Duress over Cabal Therapy. I think Duress is overall the stronger card anyway you look at it. I disagree, if you are going second it does nothing vs goblins/ most other aggro. Cabal therapy doesnt always hit but creatures are basically free in this deck and if you are missing that means you're opponent doesnt have the cards you are worrying about.


Still not sure on the Dark Ritual vs. Chrome Mox debate. What're everyone else's thoughts on this subject?

I much prefer mox diamond to either, a first turn smallpox is just as good as a first turn pox and mox diamond lets you run lots of land, they are all dead in the late game though but if you reach that stage you will probably win anyway.

[Benie Bederios]

The point about smallpox being symetrical:

You have other cards in hand and lands. Opponent has got cards in hand, creatures land. You will both loose 3 cards. Of course this can be a good trade, but it not always is.

About The Rack:

Pox cannot control the game. All it does is unbalance it, when the game us in your advantage, you must go for the win. The Rack helps that. When you Poxed/ Hymned your opponents hand away. He has the choice, or take damage, or play his cards out. If he plays, good that is 3 damage and additional food for Pox/ Sinkhole/ Innocent Blood. If he keeps in his hand because of low life( wich is often due to Pox) you get a turn. If an opponent has 6 life, he must keep the card in hand, or loose without carddraw.

About Ritual/Chrome Mox Diamond.

Ritual rules them all. First turn Ritual, Duress/Innocent Blood and Hymn to Tourach/Sinkhole wins games. Second choice goes to Mox Diamond, because I hate pitching buisinis spells.

[lolosoon]

How could Infernal Tutor improved this deck ?!

I mean : Pox is all about disruption then topdeck, then Win conditions. With IT your topdeck is far better than without.

You could then easily go with double(with a li'l help from your Dark Rituals) or successive sinkhole/smallpox/hymn even without hellbent and put a lone Contamination for a lock win condition.

Just a thought...

[Icon Of Sin]

About The Rack:

Pox cannot control the game. All it does is unbalance it, when the game us in your advantage, you must go for the win. The Rack helps that. When you Poxed/ Hymned your opponents hand away. He has the choice, or take damage, or play his cards out. If he plays, good that is 3 damage and additional food for Pox/ Sinkhole/ Innocent Blood. If he keeps in his hand because of low life( wich is often due to Pox) you get a turn. If an opponent has 6 life, he must keep the card in hand, or loose without carddraw.


Thats right, pox doesn't give you any advantage you can abuse with the rack. If your opponent has 6 life, you have 6 life, and your opponents 2 cards might be lightning bolts. If you have no finishers in play and cast 2 copies of the rack, your opponent can hold onto his 2 cards until he draws something to win with. If you have another finisher in play, why do you need the rack, run a funeral charm to get rid of your opponent's answers instead.

This is the great weakness of the pox deck, it has very little card advantage. The only certain source of card advantage is hymn to tourach. Pox and smallpox are often card disadvantage but this is balanced by your permanent mana. If you destroy all of your opponents lands they cant play anything so all their cards are useless (except for denying you rack damage). Explosive first turn plays cost you lots of cards and don't destroy many lands. First turn mox diamond is card disadvantage (which can be recouped later with a crucible) and lets you play all you best first turn cards (smallpox, sinkhole, hymn). Your three mana spells arent much good first turn (pox is awful without a spirit in hand as it cannot net you card advantage)

The problem with infernal tutor is that you don't actually go hellbent all that often. You might be hanging onto an extra kill or land destruction spell or worse, an excess spirit. Once you're reached this point any finisher will win you the game anyway,except for the rack, you don't need to pick and choose.

In the early game, you dont want to spend effectively 2 extra mana to replicate a card you already have. every card in this deck has a better alternativ e costing 1 or 2 mana more, except the crucible and nether spirit which you dont want multiples of anyway.

Dimiir machinations is a cool idea, it costs 3 to transmute unfortunately but it would let you drop the spirits and crucibles down to 1 each. I don't think it's viable however, games often hinge on getting a crucible down quickly to recur wastelands.

It's useless to speculate but were entomb, imperial seal or vampiric tutor legal I would run them despite the card disadvantage.

[APriestOfGix]

Lol. Considering that that would make the build card for card identical to the build that I posted I was running in my opening thread, of course you know I'm going to say that I think the build is perfect.

How has it been working for you?

Edit: Forgot to mention that I went back to running Duress over Cabal Therapy. I think Duress is overall the stronger card anyway you look at it.

Still not sure on the Dark Ritual vs. Chrome Mox debate. What're everyone else's thoughts on this subject?

I actually got my list of The Mana Drain so you must have posted it there...

[nitewolf9]

What about trying a green splash with LftL that also uses exploration (probably instead of ritual)? Exploration and Mox diamond as acceleration with life from the loam as recursion/recovery seems like it could be good. Treetop village also seems like a much more efficient finisher than factory. The lone nether spirit can also be put into the yard with loam dredging.

7 win con:
4x treetop village
1x nether spirit
2x necroplasm

20 disruption:
4x duress
4x hymn to tourach
4x small pox
4x pox
4x sinkhole

11 mana accel/recovery:
3x mox diamond
4x exploration
4x life from the loam

22 lands (other):
4x wasteland
3x polluted delta
3x bloodstained mire
4x bayou
3x Barren Moor
5x swamp

Thoughts on this?

[Aggro_zombies]

@nitewolf9: I’m not sure about the green splash. Even if we ignore the idea of a splash being a fundamentally bad thing in Pox (more on this in a second), your execution of it is rather…poor. First, you run green and black, but no Pernicious Deed? Deed wrecks decks based around permanents, and without Crucible in your deck, you really don’t care about blowing it for more than three since you can still use LftL to recur lost lands. But moving on…Exploration? Wtf? You have a grand total of seven win conditions in a deck with twelve board control cards, none of which are capable of wiping the board and eight of which are symmetrical or nearly symmetrical effects. To make matters worse, all of your win conditions are Needle-able, and you have no way to take care of Needle. Four of your win conditions are vulnerable to Wasteland, as is the remaining 44% of your mana base (not counting fetches or Wasteland, or Barren Moor, which I’m assuming is in there for some sort of card advantage generation). You run a grand total of three cycling lands in a deck with six ways to skip your draw step and eight ways to make yourself discard. You run Exploration, which is not a threat, disruption, or a way to recur a threat, and doesn’t generate card advantage or really allow for a turn one Sinkhole like Mox Diamond would. You do run Mox Diamond…in a deck with Exploration? So if you have an opening hand with a Mox, an Exploration, and two lands in it, what do you do? Pitch a land to the Mox and make Exploration useless? Play the Exploration and your second land and strand the Mox in your hand? Play a land, play the Exploration, then pitch the land to the Mox, thus rendering your Exploration useless until you can get your LftL card non-advantage engine going? I’d drop Exploration altogether in favor of Deeds and probably Infests as well. I’d also fit in more cycling lands so you can actually have a card advantage engine, thus negating the drawback of dredge and Pox/Smallpox.

So…I said a splash was a fundamentally bad thing in this deck. Why? You are running symmetrical land destruction. You are also running ways to toast your opponent’s lands. Your opponent, however, is probably not running ways to toast your basic lands. Therefore, despite the potential to create card disadvantage with Pox, you actually generate a rudimentary sort of card advantage – in the style of Burn – by intentionally building the deck to make certain cards of your opponent’s dead. You have plenty of ways to continue to destroy their lands post-Pox, but their Wastelands can’t touch your basic swamps. Therefore, you will end up ahead in the land race. Not so with a splash – you open yourself up to getting trashed by Wasteland at a point in time which may be rather…inopportune for you. your only way around this in this deck is Exploration, which is still terrible even with this purpose in mind.

As for Chrome Mox versus Ritual…Ritual wins, because Mox Diamond is better than Chrome Mox, and you should always run Ritual since it allows you to accelerate your threat spells out (in a way that Exploration does not, I might add).

I’m rather reluctant to chip in on the Rack debate, since I never liked it, but…in the right build, I can see it being golden. Since my deck is primarily geared towards beating aggro game one, and discard versus aggro is poor compared to, say, discard versus combo, I don’t run very much discard maindeck. My sweepers/creature kill discourage aggro opponents from committing too heavily to the board, which results in them holding cards back to keep up a constant stream of threats, thus making the Rack less useful. However, in a build geared primarily towards beating combo, you would be fairly discard heavy, so the Rack would be an effective clock that feeds off your discard (which, in and of itself, is not a threat, just a way to delay your opponent’s threats).

I’m also finding that Smallpox is not as great as I thought it might be. Against aggro, I would really rather just run Innocent Blood because it’s cheaper and it’s almost always card parity for me. Against combo, it’s almost always card disadvantage, since we both lose a land and a card…but I also lose Smallpox, so I actually lose two cards. 2-for-3’s aren’t hot. Control is like combo, but without the need to really push for a timely win, since you have adequate answers to their threats and you can cripple their ability to disrupt you through forcing them to discard. I’d really rather just run Pox and more creature kill or discard or another win condition. Not running Smallpox also decreases my dependency on Crucible and Mox Diamond to ensure stable mana, so I can drop the numbers on those and dedicate the space to something else. I’m still tinkering with my list, but I’ll probably have it done by this weekend (I have an organic chemistry midterm and an anthropology research paper both due this week, so I doubt I’ll have much time to mess with it until then).

[SillyMetalGAT]

I’m also finding that Smallpox is not as great as I thought it might be. Against aggro, I would really rather just run Innocent Blood because it’s cheaper and it’s almost always card parity for me. Against combo, it’s almost always card disadvantage, since we both lose a land and a card…but I also lose Smallpox, so I actually lose two cards. 2-for-3’s aren’t hot. Control is like combo, but without the need to really push for a timely win, since you have adequate answers to their threats and you can cripple their ability to disrupt you through forcing them to discard. I’d really rather just run Pox and more creature kill or discard or another win condition. Not running Smallpox also decreases my dependency on Crucible and Mox Diamond to ensure stable mana, so I can drop the numbers on those and dedicate the space to something else. I’m still tinkering with my list, but I’ll probably have it done by this weekend (I have an organic chemistry midterm and an anthropology research paper both due this week, so I doubt I’ll have much time to mess with it until then).

Wow, last time I said Smallpox wasn't meant for Pox, I got doubted. At least someone else has seen the light. Seriously, nothing new has come out for Pox. You really need a good card. Phyrexian Totem is only a maybe at best also. I still prefer Nether Spirit/Chimeric Idol/Cursed Scroll. Bottom line they are the best win conditions, with Factory/Crucible at a close second.
Also, Innocent Blood > All. From what I've seen in testing, it really is just better than anything else black has to offer for you. Its blacks StP for Pox. It even kills Mongoose!!! Yeah, its a 4 of.

[Ophidian]

Just wondering if anyone has considered running Nether Void? I would think it would have great synergy with the LD aspect of the deck, plus all of the aforementioned kill conditions -- Nether Spirit, Idol, Scroll, Factory, and P. Totem all work great with Nether Void.

If you're running Crucibles, the additional 3 mana for the Void wouldn't be too tough to come by, and since Void counters the spell, you could drop a Nether Spirit, not pay the 3, and get him into the yard that way.

[Clark Kant]

You can't compare Smallpox to Innocent Blood.

The only valid comparison to Smallpox is casting and using both an Innocent Blood and a Wasteland the same turn. In fact the cost of playing a Wasteland second turn and using it, and casting an innocent blood off of your first turn swamp is identical to the cost of laying down a swamp second turn and casting a smallpox.

The most powerful aspect of the card is destroying your opponents land. Sure that may not seem all that great by it self, but when you are running a total of 16 land destruction spells (not counting random discard of land via Hymn), it's an extreme crippling of your opponent's development. You are running as many land destruction spells as a lot of decks run land.

When I've played this deck, there are many many games where my opponent never goes past their first land and often is stuck at 0 land. At that point it's irrelevent if your opponent is playing control, combo, or aggro. That's how this deck wins. That's what makes it so damn powerful. And that's why Smallpox is so incredible, because it increases your ability to do that. If I could run 4 more Smallpox for a total of 20 2cc land destruction spells, I would without a second thought.

As for Nether Void, if there was any way to ensure that I would always have a ritual in hand to cast it turn two consistently, I would run it no questions asked. But without rituals, you are saccing your own lands too, which means that you many times won't reach 4 lands for a while. You would rather that Nether Void be something that destroys one of their lands instead.

[Benie Bederios]

Wow, last time I said Smallpox wasn't meant for Pox, I got doubted. At least someone else has seen the light. Seriously, nothing new has come out for Pox. You really need a good card. Phyrexian Totem is only a maybe at best also. I still prefer Nether Spirit/Chimeric Idol/Cursed Scroll. Bottom line they are the best win conditions, with Factory/Crucible at a close second.
Also, Innocent Blood > All. From what I've seen in testing, it really is just better than anything else black has to offer for you. Its blacks StP for Pox. It even kills Mongoose!!! Yeah, its a 4 of.

I've said it too. I removed them for Funeral Charm, giving me 8 options( next to blood) to deal with Lackey or so.

[SillyMetalGAT]

You can't compare Smallpox to Innocent Blood.

The only valid comparison to Smallpox is casting and using both an Innocent Blood and a Wasteland the same turn. In fact the cost of playing a Wasteland second turn and using it, and casting an innocent blood off of your first turn swamp is identical to the cost of laying down a swamp second turn and casting a smallpox.

The most powerful aspect of the card is destroying your opponents land. Sure that may not seem all that great by it self, but when you are running a total of 16 land destruction spells (not counting random discard of land via Hymn), it's an extreme crippling of your opponent's development. You are running as many land destruction spells as a lot of decks run land.

When I've played this deck, there are many many games where my opponent never goes past their first land and often is stuck at 0 land. At that point it's irrelevent if your opponent is playing control, combo, or aggro. That's how this deck wins. That's what makes it so damn powerful. And that's why Smallpox is so incredible, because it increases your ability to do that. If I could run 4 more Smallpox for a total of 20 2cc land destruction spells, I would without a second thought.

As for Nether Void, if there was any way to ensure that I would always have a ritual in hand to cast it turn two consistently, I would run it no questions asked. But without rituals, you are saccing your own lands too, which means that you many times won't reach 4 lands for a while. You would rather that Nether Void be something that destroys one of their lands instead.

Playing both Smallpox, Wasteland, and Pox loses you a minimum of 12 lands. Thats really bad. That makes it so Crucible is a 4 of.... Which is also bad. The reason you need 4 Crucible is because you pretty much need one at that point to even hope of winning, because you dont have any way to regain lands faster than your opponent without it. Innocent Blood is also better because your really not effected by it at all. Its pretty one sided. Not to mention Smallpox sucks when your opponent has a vial on the board. A lot of other people are starting to realize this too, so im not the only one who says this. Play Smallpox if it works for you, all im saying is don't plan on winning with it at the next PT when you stare down accomplished aggro.

EDIT: It does matter if your opponent is playing aggro, combo, or control even if they are at 0 lands. You don't have instant speed LD do you? Dont say wasteland either. Bottom line is that Smallpox + Pox is WAYYYY too damaging to yourself and it only makes it tougher for you to get out of the hole that Pox created.

[Clark Kant]

How many lands are you running? I think the reason that some people are very happy with Smallpox and some aren't is that the first group created a new mana curve that's adjusted for losing your own lands while the second simply stuck with the old pox curve.

I approach this like a land destruction deck, one that has the bonus that it's ld also destroys creatures. I'll grant you that Vial has poor synergy with ld so you will have to play those few matchups/games that have vial differently. But aside from those few games in a few matchups, I've found the land destruction approach extremely effective. You recover from your own ld much faster than your opponents because you knew before hand that you would be losing your own lands, and run more lands as a result. You don't need to run more than 2 Crucible. Heck my old build didn't run Crucible at all and still did well. Just make sure you run a reasonable amount of lands.

All well built decks were built with a very clear curve in mind. Most every deck mulligans one land hands because they know they can't possibly win the game if they never go beyond one land. This build is designed to win by ensuring that every deck is stuck at 0 land and almost never gets past 1 land even if they cast a land their turn. But that requires casting land destruction aggressively and most importantly a curve that supports ld.

[SillyMetalGAT]

How many lands are you running? I think the reason that some people are very happy with Smallpox and some aren't is that the first group created a new mana curve that's adjusted for losing your own lands while the second simply stuck with the old pox curve.

I approach this like a land destruction deck, one that has the bonus that it's ld also destroys creatures. I'll grant you that Vial has poor synergy with ld so you will have to play those few matchups/games that have vial differently. But aside from those few games in a few matchups, I've found the land destruction approach extremely effective. You recover from your own ld much faster than your opponents because you knew before hand that you would be losing your own lands, and run more lands as a result. You don't need to run more than 2 Crucible. Heck my old build didn't run Crucible at all and still did well. Just make sure you run a reasonable amount of lands.

All well built decks were built with a very clear curve in mind. Most every deck mulligans one land hands because they know they can't possibly win the game if they never go beyond one land. This build is designed to win by ensuring that every deck is stuck at 0 land and almost never gets past 1 land even if they cast a land their turn. But that requires casting land destruction aggressively and most importantly a curve that supports ld.

When I was playing with Smallpox, I was using 24 lands + 3 Diamonds and 3 Crucible. I think thats way too many slots to be dedicating just to run Smallpox in addition to Pox. When I originally played Pox, I ran 17 Swamps and 4 Wastelands and almost never had a problem with lands. Alsmot every threat in my deck costs 1-2. Pox, Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol, and Infest were my only 3 CC cards, and E. Plague if I wanted to maindeck it. But I also ran Dark Ritual so it made this cards pretty much cost 1 and an extra card. Not a bad trade to put your opponent at 13.

Smallpox on paper seems like a perfect fit. Hell its a half Hymn, Innocent Blood, and Wasteland for BB. But it also does this to you. Which isn't always a great thing because you spent an entire turn to play it. Your opponent now has their turn to go right back to the same board position they were the turn before. Its like a negative Time Walk on both people, except YOU casted it. Now if you did something like this it would be good: Diamond, Ritual, Duress, Smallpox, land. Only if you were on the draw and your opponent casted a creature 1st turn. I can see this card hurting Solidarity because its a land hungry machine, but nothing else is really effected by this card.

Seriously, think about how many times you draw this card and which it was a real Pox.

[Clark Kant]

17 Swamp + 4 Wasteland is too low even when you weren't running Smallpox. You sac your Wastelands anyways. Even with 23 lands, you're effectively only running 19 lands if you are using Wastelands like you should. I don't see why people went under 22 lands then.

You run 2 more lands to support not just Smallpox but Pox as well. Like I said, you don't need to run Crucible at all. Actually, Crucible is rather slow hence why it's not included in the build in my opening post. And Mox Diamond is something I would run in place of Dark Ritual, not in addition to it, so it shouldn't be eating up any extra slots.

Try running 24 lands including the 4 Wastelands, 0 Crucibles, 2 Phyrexian Totem and 4 Dark Rituals and that's it and let me know how it works out.

[SillyMetalGAT]

17 Swamp + 4 Wasteland is too low even when you weren't running Smallpox.

You run 2 more lands to support not just Smallpox but Pox as well. Like I said, you don't need to run Crucible at all. Actually, Crucible is rather slow hence why it's not included in the build in my opening post. And Mox Diamond is something I would run in place of Dark Ritual, not in addition to it, so it shouldn't be eating up any extra slots.

Try running 24 lands including the 4 Wastelands, 0 Crucibles, and 4 Dark Rituals and that's it and let me know how it works out.

Ummm 17 Swamps + 4 Wasteland isnt too low, try reading the past Pox threads. Thats the number that is pretty much agreed upon by the people that played the deck for a couple years. I dont get why you think that its too little. Maybe your doing some sort of math for it, but I never, EVER had a land problem, and I will prove this via MWS. IM me if you want to play it out, my s/n is the same as my source name, and Im always on.

Tell me what you've ACTUALLY tested your deck with Smallpox against? No paper writeups, I mean throw the cards into a Pox deck, shuffle it up, and play the game. I will tell you right now that I've played it against Goblins, Affinity, White Thresh, Solidarity, and Loam of all colors (GW, GWR, GR, GRB). I will post my matchups if you want, I played 2 out of 3 both with and without Smallpox and I have the matchups on my friends laptop, which I will have him send to me if you so please. I did a lot better against every deck without Smallpox except Solidarity and GW Loam I think.... It could have been GRB Loam though...

EDIT: This is taken from the Pox Primer, which can be found in the primer list. This is the original Pox deck, so yes it is old, but this is basically the shell that was used for Pox for quite some time.

G. The Decklist

//Discard Spells
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
//Land Destruction
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
//Creature Destruction
4 Diabolic Edict
//Mass Disruption
4 Pox
//Creatures
4 Mindstab Thrull
4 Hypnotic Specter
//Damage Sources
4 The Rack
3 Cursed Scroll
//Mana Sources
17 Swamps
4 Dark Ritual

Total : 60 cards

IV. How to Play Pox

The most important thing about playing Pox is knowing when to play the card Pox. The other spells in the deck do not require you to worry about consequences since they only effect your opponent. Knowing when to cast the spell Pox depends almost completely on the board position at the time and whether it is advantageous to do so. You almost always want to achieve some type of card advantage by casting Pox since it can create a great swing in the game you want to make sure this is the biggest possible swing in your favor. You also want to affect the aspect of the board that is most critical to your opponent. For example, if you are trying to disrupt an aggro deck and it has 4 creatures in play and you have none this would be a good time for playing Pox because your opponent will lose 2 creatures and you will lose none. The best way to know when to play Pox is to understand what your opponent is trying to do. If you know that your opponent is playing control then you need to disrupt his ability to play spells. If your opponent is playing aggro it is important to slow down his assault by destroying his creatures. If you are playing against combo you know which pieces he needs to complete the combo and you need to use this information to disrupt his or her plan. This ability to maximize disruption requires a good deal of knowledge about what your opponent is trying to do and how he plans to do it.

Pox should never be confused with other blue-based control decks, because unlike those decks it is unable to maintain control over a game indefinitely. Its disruption creates instability for the opponent but for the most part that instability will not last and it is during this time that Pox has to find a way to beat his opponent. This is why the deck is classified as aggro/disruption because unlike a control player it does not have the luxury of waiting out every game but rather follows up its disruption with an aggresive strategy to end the game. But compared to other aggro decks it doesn't need to win nearly as fast because it does put constraints on its opponent and what he or she is able to do.

Finally, since playing Pox can be very different depending upon the deck that you are playing against it makes sense to examine how it does against the top decks in 1.5 currently.





Since its old, some cards have been decided that they are better. But note how Anwar only used 17 lands in general??? WOW and his deck was probably one of the most feared ones in general, with TeenieBoppers and ObFreelys coming in a close 2nd. If theres anyone to ask about Pox, its these guys.

[Clark Kant]

I tested against the decks that I have access to,

Deadguy, Zilla Stompy, Fairie Stompy, UW Thres, Reanimator, Burn. Nothing with Vial unfortunately except on MWS. But against those matchups I've never once regretted running Smallpox as a 4 of. Burn is the only very unfavorable matchup for you and that's because of Pox, not Smallpox. Burn is the bane of most any black deck.

Edit: I read the pox primer thank you. Like you said, a lot has changed. No one runs 4 Mindstab Thrull and 4 The Rack and most people find Cursed Scroll too many hungry and to luck dependent at times to run as a 3 of. But more important than that, the meta has changed completely from what it was back then.

Things moved much slower back then. If you're short on lands, you could wait a turn or two to draw into another land and odds are, you're not nearly as behind as you would be today. Decks change and evolve based on new metas and new cards. I think it's time to rethink the old mana base as well.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I tested against the decks that I have access to,

Deadguy, Zilla Stompy, Fairie Stompy, UW Thres, Reanimator, Burn. Nothing with Vial unfortunately except on MWS. But against those matchups I've never once regretted running Smallpox as a 4 of. Burn is the only very unfavorable matchup for you and that's because of Pox, not Smallpox. Burn is the bane of most any black deck.

Thats funny. Half those decks require winning with a couple creatures. Innocent Blood would do just as much good against them. Try playing Affinity, Goblins, and Loam with Smallpox. The only reason Smallpox was any good against Loam was because of its discard effect. They can't recur a Humility or Confinement.

If you want to test against these matchups, I will be glad to show you the light. Smallpox is, at best, a sideboard card for your combo matchup, but Oppression is there for that already, and does that job 10X better.

EDIT: Also, I would think that Faerie Stompy would be a bad matchup for you because of Chalice at 1 and 2 is SOOOO bad for this deck. Did this happen to you?

[Clark Kant]

Or perhaps you can accept that a lot of people don't play in metas dominated with Loam and Vial decks. I already acknowledged the weakness of the ld strategy against Vial and Loam. And as I've repeatedly stated, goblins has fallen out of flavor where I play, and in most places I suspect. And both Loam and Affinity were never in flavor here or in most areas I suspect. If your meta has tons of Vial based decks and Loam based decks, I wouldn't be running Pox in the first place.

Fairie Stompy is rather land light and prone to mana screw. Plus their mana base is very prone to Wasteland as well. You have an easier time getting your ld engine to be effective as they do casting a Chalice at 2, and Chalice at 1 isn't that painful. Certainly Smallpox would be among the last cards I would ever cut against this matchup as it's actually better than Pox and most of the stuff you run here, it more easily lets you keep them stuck at 1 mana and destroys their first turn creature to boot. Actually Smallpox is probably the strongest card you run against Fairie Stompy. Why would you ever want to cut Smallpox against Fairie Stompy?

[SillyMetalGAT]

Or perhaps you can accept that a lot of people don't play in metas dominated with Loam and Vial decks. I already acknowledged the weakness of the ld strategy against Vial and Loam. And as I've repeatedly stated, goblins has fallen out of flavor where I play, and in most places I suspect. And both Loam and Affinity were never in flavor here or in most areas I suspect. If your meta has tons of Vial based decks and Loam based decks, I wouldn't be running Pox in the first place.

Im making a point that I wouldn't bring Smallpox to a big tournament such as another GP, just because of the amount of decks like Goblins and Affinity, which seems to have popped up recently. So if its not a good card against 1 of the best decks in the format, how does it help the deck? When people say that Goblins is dying out, they lie. Goblins is still out there people, and you need to be ready for it. Just look at the Sinkhole touney in W. Springfield. Nobody there was really ready for it, and it ended up being the only 2 goblin decks there at the final match. Fear it. Im saying that its not a solid card option, so there shouldn't be any hype over it like you say. You make this card out to be better than Innocent Blood. Innocent Blood is a million times more versitile then Smallpox and I think a lot of people agree here. Play Smallpox if you want. Go ahead, Im not stopping you. Im just pointing out why its not the best option. Maybe it is and Im a dickhead, but from my testing (And trust me, I was just as excited as everyone else when it came out) this card is mediocre at best. I tested the shit out of this card, I really wanted it to work. Unfortunatly, it didn't do it for me. But hell, I play Magic to be number 1, not to have fun, so what the hell does my opinion matter?

[Clark Kant]

If I was expecting to see a decent amount of Goblins and/or Affinity at a tourney, I don't think I would bring Pox period, with or without Smallpox.

Very fast decks that deal tons of damage in just a couple of turns on are the bane of Pox's existance. That's nothing new. And that's nothing that can be pinned on Smallpox. Smallpox if anything helps you in one of yyour major hopes against such decks, mana screw.

[SillyMetalGAT]

If I was expecting to see a decent amount of Goblins and/or Affinity at a tourney, I don't think I would bring Pox period, with or without Smallpox.

Very fast decks that deal tons of damage in just a couple of turns on are the bane of Pox's existance. That's nothing new. And that's nothing that can be pinned on Smallpox. Smallpox if anything helps you in one of yyour major hopes against such decks, mana screw.

Umm, this statement is just silly. I brought Pox to GP Philly. The meta was easily 50% Goblins. Ask anyone that went. I lost to Rabid Wombat, Deadguy, and Landstill. I beat all my other matchups. My other matchups were ALL GOBLINS.

How did I win you ask? Maindeck Infests and E. Plagues. I think my decklist is on the first page of this thread. You can most definately tune this deck to be an auto win to Goblins, as I did. I lost to control though, which was my downfall. Thats the thing about Pox. There are so many good black cards, you can literally form Pox to beat whatever you gear it towards. Once again, I refer to my first post on here when I say just how to do that. Im not retarded when it comes to Pox, it is my favorite deck after all. I have worked on it for almost a year straight, so I know a thing or two when I talk about it.

EDIT: Here, Ill even repost it for you so you dont have to bother going back


The point to Pox is that every spell you play should be able to be cast with Dark Ritual alone, making Ritual your MVP. Heres the list I ran at Philly.... as you can tell from reading it, I auto-won against Goblins.

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
3 Cursed Scroll

4 Pox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymm
4 Sinkhole
3 Duress
3 Infest
3 E. Plague
3 Funeral Charm
2 Smother



SB:
3 Oppression
3 Haunting Echoes
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Infest
1 E. Plague
3 Massacre

Something like that. I can't remember exactly because it was almost a year ago. Unfortunatly, my teammate Bane_of_the_Living was playing it the night before in a tournament to get the 2-round bye when it got stolen. He was 2-0 in it too, his 3rd opponent was Goblins. He would have tromped them, but when he looked up, it was gone. Foil Wastelands, Beta Sinks, altered Infests, pretty much a money deck.

Anyways, The amazing thing about Pox is its flexability to the format. If you know your meta has a lot of combo, maindeck Oppressions, Cabal Therapy, Duress, Hymn to Tourach, and Racks. Playing a lot of Aggro? Throw in Infests, Smother, Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol, Cursed Scroll, and whatever else may tickle your fancy.

A really underestimated card is Contamination. Solidarity literally cries if that thing hits the board. Bait out the FoWs with some discard, then drop that card on them with Spirit in play and that equals GG 99% of the time. Some people are crafty enough to float mana, Wish for bounce yadda yadda yadda, but most people just scoop. Its also a house against Threshold, although its harder to cast because they play 10-12 counters. The other thing about Threshold is that they really dont mind discard as long as its not on their creatures. Discard = Quicker Threshold. Which blows, especially if your not packing Diabolic Edicts. Mongoose will smash your face all day if you can't pwn him early.

Goblins is by far the most fun deck to play against. When I played at Philly, I opened a hand like this: Swamp, Dark Rit, Dark Rit, E. Plague, Swamp, Spirit, Pox. I kept and went first, playing swamp, Rit, E. plague on goblins. My opponent got up and yelled judge because he thought I was cheating. The judge walked over and got my decklist, then laughed and said everything was fine. The kids face turned bright red and he went, playing mountain, vial. I drew into another E. Plague and it was GG. The kid was bullshit at me but whatever. THIS DECK TROMPS GOBLINS SOOO BAD! If you have a lot of Goblins in your meta, this is the deck to bring. You play Infest, Funeral Charm (lacky tech), Smother, and E. Plague. Hymns throw away their Gobs at a pretty fast rate if you see multiples. This deck is probably Goblins worst matchup. Pox = MVP too. They lose it all if they dont have Vial on the board.

As for Control, thats a tough one.... Its like facing the mirror. Whos going to make the first move? Nether Spirit is the man in this matchup. The only card you dont want to see is StP, but between Duress, Hymn, and Funeral Charm, you should be ok on that deal. Spirit can chump block ALL day and just laugh about it. Poxing against control is also nice, considering control only gets scarier the more land it has. LD is pretty key here, as is discard. You drop Idols late game with Spirits and beat face from there. Luckily though, there isn't too much pure control anymore.


So, now I think i'll post a decklist of a solid Pox list from what I think.

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

3 Chimeric Idol
3 Nether Spirit
3 The Rack

4 Pox
4 Hymm to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
3 Small Pox (Yes, I had hopes)
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Contamination

SB
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Oppression
3 Haunting Echoes
3 Engineered Plague
3 Infest


The list has a pretty strong maindeck against both Threshold and Solidarity, with an even better sideboard. The deck packs 15 LD effects, 10 creaure kill effects, and 17 discard effects. The Echoes is in there to completely own Threshold. They call it the Scoopmeister in Germany for a reason. Oppression puts the hurt on Combo. Crypt is there for Thresh and IGGy pop. E. Plagues and Infests round out the goblin matchup pretty easily.

Overall, Pox has the tools to become quite a contender, and hopefully Small Pox will be the extra oomph needed to make it viable. Just remember people, Pox Hard, Pox Fast!

[Clark Kant]

You can most definately tune this deck to be an auto win to Goblins, as I did. I lost to control though, which was my downfall. Thats the thing about Pox. There are so many good black cards, you can literally form Pox to beat whatever you gear it towards.

That cuts to the heart of the matter right there. You face a lot of goblins and tweak your build to beat goblins at the cost of losing to control and I suspect combo.

I see a lot more nongoblin decks and run cards like Smallpox that help me against those matchups and lean on my sideboard to hate goblins.

Different builds for different metas. If Smallpox is bad in your specific meta, then more power to you. But that doesn't justify your statement that Smallpox is a bad card for Pox (GP Philly was a long time ago, goblins WAS top dog back then). It's very synergic with the deck and I may side it out against certain matchups, but I would never not run it altogether.

[SillyMetalGAT]

That cuts to the heart of the matter right there. You face a lot of goblins and tweak your build to beat goblins at the cost of losing to control and I suspect combo.

I see a lot more nongoblin decks and run cards like Smallpox that help me against those matchups and lean on my sideboard to hate goblins.

Different builds for different metas. If Smallpox is bad in your specific meta, then more power to you. But that doesn't justify your statement that Smallpox is a bad card for Pox (GP Philly was a long time ago, goblins WAS top dog back then). It's very synergic with the deck and I may side it out against certain matchups, but I would never not run it altogether.

Ok. Im ending this arguement right here. Give me your meta. I will make a Pox deck that beats it without the use of Smallpox. Smallpox is Suboptimal to any other card choices because, while one part of it might be good, one part of it is bad. Here is an example of such a thing:

Solidarity.
LD= Good
Discard= Good
creature kill= Poor

Pox
LD= Good
Discard= Good
creature kill = Poor

Your effected 2 times by it conditionally. Solidarity isnt. But its got 2 out of 3, so its not a bad option, but instead you could run.......... CABAL THERAPY!!!! ZOMFG!!! WOW YOU MEAN IT DOESNT HURT THE POX PLAYER BUT CAN COMPLETELY RUIN SOLIDARITY????

Goblins
LD= Poor
Discard= EHHHH
Creature Kill= Good

Ok, so you can kill 1 creature, but you lose a card and a land to do so. but instead you could run...... INNOCENT BLOOD!!!!!!!!!! WOW YOU MEAN YOU DONT LOSE A LAND AND A CARD???? or even INFEST???? WIPE THEIR BOARD????????????

Threshold
LD= Good
Discard= depending on what you rip
Creature Kill= Good

Ok, so you pretty much lose a card and a land to do the same to them. But instead you could run.... INNOCENT BLOOD!!!!!!!! You have Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Pox to get rid of their lands already. Again, Innocent Blood is better because its A) Cheaper, B) Doesn't cost you a land, and C) doesn't cost you a card in hand AT RANDOM. It could be a non-spirit win condition.

So I've given you 3 cards that are easily better than Smallpox in those situations. Do you need more proof? Your guaranteed to lose a card in your hand, which is BAD FOR YOU. Your guaranteed to lose a land, WHICH IS BAD FOR YOU. Its the same exact concept of Pox. But you already have a Pox. Why do you need a weaker one? Your running Smallpox over utility because its supposedly better than any other option you have. I gave you 3. Do you need more?

Then, THEN think about this. You have a Smallpox and a Pox in your hand. Which one are you going to play? If you play the Smallpox, you run the risk of losing the Pox, and vise versa. YOU PLAY THE FRIGGIN POX. You only need 4 global effects like that. Seriously man, SmallPox is suboptimal in
almost EVERY situation you can think of.

[quicksilver]

Ive' done some testing with ismall pox and I have been impressed, esspecialy if you can set up your deck so that the discard, land destruction and creature destruction don't effect you. It basically three for ones.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Ive' done some testing with ismall pox and I have been impressed, esspecialy if you can set up your deck so that the discard, land destruction and creature destruction don't effect you. It basically three for ones.

Did you use both Pox and Smallpox? Can you elaborate for me?

[quicksilver]

Did you use both Pox and Smallpox? Can you elaborate for me?

I did have both pox and small pox in the same deck, and no i can't elaborate for you cause someone told me not to spill their tech, but you'll see it soon enough, probably once the set becomes legal. I am just saying it has been really strong for me.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I did have both pox and small pox in the same deck, and no i can't elaborate for you cause someone told me not to spill their tech, but you'll see it soon enough, probably once the set becomes legal. I am just saying it has been really strong for me.


Ok, answer this for me then. Is it a Pox deck? Like an average one, not one thats completely different? I mean like it has 75% of the same card choices and whatnot?

[Icon Of Sin]

In order to win with a land destruction deck, you need to meet a critical mass of land destruction. Most decks can win with 2 lands and annoy you with one land, but very few can win with no lands at all. Therefore you need atleast as much land destruction as your opponents have lands.

The best pure land destruction cards are wasteland and sinkhole. Your other land destruction is slightly less efficient but more versatile - pox and hymn to tourach. Most decks run about 17-20 lands - you need smallpox or the rest of your ld is useless.

To compensate for running pox and smallpox you need to run more lands, i run about 26 - 18 + one for each land sacrifice card. These lands are not however dead cards because nearl half of them have other uses - 4 factories, 4 pits and 4 wastelands, and I can discard them to pox and smallpox if I get mana flooded. Crucible of worlds is very useful because it consolidates your position, once it's down your opponent can't play nonbasic lands or small creatures, the crucible is effectively a finisher and I would consider running something else.


The problem with aether vial is not that it circumvents ld but that it allows your opponent to drop several creatures each turn, cards like innocent blood can't keep up with that, so you generally lose. This is why I recommend 4 md pithing needle. Every major deck in the format has atleast one or two 4 of's which are completely shut down by this card (fetches mostly) and it answers one of the deck's biggest problems (aether vial) and stops topdecked crypts once you get the crucible or the spirit online.

You don't draw a pithing needle every game but when you don't smallpox is actually very strong against the vial because it deals with one creature and stops them casting as many next turn by destroying a land and forcing a discard. Pox can generally deal with one new goblin a turn with nether spirit or mishra's factory by the time that the vial has enough counters on anyway.

Using these strategies I can go about 50-50 game one with goblins without having any dead cards md.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Edit: I read the pox primer thank you. Like you said, a lot has changed. No one runs 4 Mindstab Thrull and 4 The Rack and most people find Cursed Scroll too many hungry and to luck dependent at times to run as a 3 of. But more important than that, the meta has changed completely from what it was back then.

Things moved much slower back then. If you're short on lands, you could wait a turn or two to draw into another land and odds are, you're not nearly as behind as you would be today. Decks change and evolve based on new metas and new cards. I think it's time to rethink the old mana base as well.

Whoa, what? Try it. Seriously. The only way this point can be proven is to try it. Dude, you only need 21 lands. I guarantee it. You know why? NOBODY RUNS LD IN THIS FORMAT! Thats right! The only LD you see is Wasteland, which doesn't hit swamps! So the only one blowing up lands is you and Deadguy, and thats because of Sinkhole. Deadguy, btw, is pretty much gone. I haven't seen it post highly in a while. Another thing, How is Cursed Scroll slow? Its just as slow as Nether Spirit, but it costs 3. So what? If your playing with Chimeric Idol, its an amzing card to have. Shoot an opponents creature, swing 3. Or shoot for 2, swing for 3.

[Clark Kant]

It's pretty clear that our decks are for very different environments and our findings don't agree with each other.

For me, Land destruction has been viable, actually not just viable but extremely powerful for me as a strategy and though our builds are very different, Icon of Sin summed up the need for Smallpox to make the land dest strategy consistently effective very well.

So let's not waste more time and just agree to disagree.

As for Scroll, yes, Cursed scroll's luck dependence when you have more than 1 card in hand and it's 3 mana cost to deal just 2 damage has been too slow. Nether Spirit is effectively 0 cc since you can discard it to have to come into play, and it's cost only has to be paid once. That's why I love Nether Spirit, it lets me dedicate all of my mana for disruption.

But I know others have different expereinces with Cursed Scroll so I won't say that it's a bad card for Pox, just that personally, I would at the very most run 2, if any at all.

[slylie]

Just a thought: What about mishras/urza's bauble? The bauble was used in early pox decks to store cards on the table, which sounds like a good idea when you are about to pox and dont want to get stuck with 4 cards in hand, you play out the bauble, pox, sac it to see what your opponent is drawing into (minor detail), then by your next upkeep you have an extra card in hand. Ontop of that it helps thin out your deck, and for those playing cabal pit, helps you reach thresh faster. Has a bit of synergy for those playing cursed scroll as well. Just an idea.

[Benie Bederios]

In the day that it was used, Yawgmoth's Will was legal, to make the card really broken. For now I don't know it there is space in the decklist to play them. I shall try it.

[Aggro_zombies]

My, my, such heated debate. I think I'll stay out of that one...

In any event, I've started playtesting my latest list of this deck (more on that in a sec) and I must say, the initial results have been extremely positive. As in, as yet undefeated (round-wise, not game-wise) positive. "H-What?!" you say. "How is this possible?" The answer lies in a higher concentration of black mana sources over my previous lists in addition to a much faster clock (Negator totem). So far most of my testing has been against fast and mid-range aggro decks, but this deck does mean things to combo and aggro-control too. I still need to test against pure control, but the only pure control deck in my meta is a Burning Tog deck, and I haven't been able to track the guy down yet and squeeze some playtesting out of him. The decks I've played against so far: Angel Stompy (blue/white version), Goblins, BWR Sligh, Faerie Stompy (Force of Will sucks T_T), Solidarity, and one game against Sal Game. I lose pre-board to Solidarity, but post-board I can bring in frightening levels of hate, so it's all good. Without further ado, here is the list:

2 Nether Spirit

4 Infest
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Pox (I want to go back up to four, but I'm not sure what to cut)
4 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Smother
3 Chimeric Idol
4 Innocent Blood

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Oppression
1 Nether Spirit
4 Leyline of the Void

The totem is far and away the MVP of the new list. Having a realistic clock ensures that you can win before your opponent recovers after a Pox as well as allowing you to race combo decks (when backed up by enough disruption) makes this deck so much better. One thing I want to work in there is Sudden Death, since mid-range aggro decks are slowly taking over my meta and Infest just doesn't cut it as a good board sweeper against them (also, it kills 'togs dead, without letting them respond). Any thoughts on how to get it in there? Gobs is still enough of a presence around here that I don't want to cut too many Infest.

[Bane of the Living]

I like your new list but I wish it was playing Smallpox. You should at least side board it. Its amazing against Thresh, Solidarity, and other combo. Maybe sideboard it instead of Therapy.

If your not playing Smallpox you REALLY need to have 4 Pox in the deck.

Why only 2 spirit main? Maybe you should cut a Chimeric Idol or a Funeral Charm for one more.

[Aggro_zombies]

I like your new list but I wish it was playing Smallpox. You should at least side board it. Its amazing against Thresh, Solidarity, and other combo. Maybe sideboard it instead of Therapy.

If your not playing Smallpox you REALLY need to have 4 Pox in the deck.

Why only 2 spirit main? Maybe you should cut a Chimeric Idol or a Funeral Charm for one more.
I'll probably cut a Funeral Charm for it, since I don't think there will be much difference between 7 and 8 answers to turn one Lackey. I'm still trying to figure out what to cut for the last Pox, though.

EDIT: one card I just noticed is Vesuva. Well, actually, I noticed it when the set came out and instantly fell in love with it (awesome artwork, quirky ability - sign me up!). I really just noticed it for this deck. I think it's interesting because it's so versatile...you can choose a swamp with it and I'm pretty sure they can't Wasteland it, you can choose a Wasteland and essentially run more than 4 of your nonbasic-land hate, you can choose an interesting nonbasic of your opponent's before you kill it with Wasteland (I'll copy your Mishra's Factory and then kill it with Wasteland...thanks!). I wouldn't run more than two of it, but what does everyone else think? Is it up to par or am I just romanticizing the card?

[FakeSpam]

This thread should not be drifting in the obscurity of page two.

So, I bump.

I'm very excited about Smallpox and Phyrexian Totem. Mostly for the reasons mentioned above.

I believe Phyrexian Totem to be superior to Chimeric Idol. If for no other reason, it taps for B.

I'm still working on the details, and adjusting the deck for the current metagame. I'm working on the mox/crucible/8pox version. I think it has the most promise.

Just had to bump more than anything.

[Bane of the Living]

The only problem I see with playing totem over idol is that idol blocks for free each turn. Often keeping you alive against gobs or AS in the early game. You could also Pox, then activate Idol and swing. Dropping your opponent to 10 in one turn. Totem is slower, yet just as you said the ability to tap for black will keep our heads above water when playing 8 self ld effects. Im not saying to not run totem but you might still need the support Idol offered. Testing will tell. Nice to have adepts pick up the best black deck in the format again.

[Aggro_zombies]

The only problem I see with playing totem over idol is that idol blocks for free each turn. Often keeping you alive against gobs or AS in the early game. You could also Pox, then activate Idol and swing. Dropping your opponent to 10 in one turn. Totem is slower, yet just as you said the ability to tap for black will keep our heads above water when playing 8 self ld effects. Im not saying to not run totem but you might still need the support Idol offered. Testing will tell. Nice to have adepts pick up the best black deck in the format again.
Why not play both? I do - three Idol, three Totem. They're the biggest beats your deck has available, I see no reason not to use both.

@FakeSpam: just out of curiousity, what's your list? I'd be interested to see what you're testing.

[Citrus-God]

I revised my Angel Pox list. I really liked it so far. I was really impressed with what Smallpox could do, and along with the other resource denial cards combined together did for me.


// Mana 26
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
2 Godless Shrine
8 Swamp


// Creatures 4
4 Exalted Angel


// Spells 30
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Crucible of Worlds

And OMG, this thing is explosive. This deck created so many Redzone/Board locks for me, it was just unreal what this deck could easily do. I should cut Mox from the list and add Dark Ritual in, but the fact that Mox Diamond is unaffected by anything makes me happy.

[nitewolf9]

^ even with ghostly prisons, how is your game against goblins? Seems like it would be bad, but I duno.

[Aggro_zombies]

AAAAAAHHHHHHH someone bumped the thread. I was starting to worry I'd killed it. Well, I wrote up a primer of sorts for my build of the deck on mtgsalvation (which you can find here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=1504469&postcount=62), but I think I should probably elaborate on the evils of Smallpox.

Keeping my analysis from my deck explanation in mind (too lazy to retype it), you might also object that Pox itself can generate card disadvantage for you. This is true, it can do so, but the thing that sets it apart from Smallpox is that it operates on a sliding scale. Whereas Smallpox is always set to one of stuff, Pox will hit for at least one of everything. In other words, Pox wipes boards, and Smallpox doesn't. Well, it could if you played it in the early game, but it will set you back just as far unless you run Mox Diamonds and other artifact sources of mana to dodge the land sacrifice effect. Smallpox's effect just isn't devastating enough to justify setting yourself back on mana, or if you're holding a land in hand, keeping your mana stable. This is especially true when you want to ramp yourself up to triple black mana ASAP so you can Pox and get down to business.

That said, you *could* theoretically run a build with heavy Mox / Crucible support to fit in 4 Smallpox and 4 Pox, but I really don't want to spend that many deck slots to support an unimpressive effect.

That's my take on things, anyway. I'm sure Smallpox can be useful in the right builds. I'm taking my version into a tournament on Sunday, and I'll post how I do.

Also, someone please post after me so I don't kill this thread again.

[Bane of the Living]

We've been QUITE happy with Small Pox in testing. The best time to play it is after an actual Pox, thats when it hits their final land, final card in hand, and final creature. Aim to do that. Pox is a set up spell for this super scooper. Its like playing Pox into Pox but affordable and just as devestating.

Running Crucible is nothing to scoff at. Its the only non aggressive card I would play in the deck. It gives you wastelock, something completely suited for the deck. It lets you have recurring win conditions in Mishras Factory, and it gives you the staying power for the attrition wars you start with your namesake cards. IMHO I would start every pox decklist like this...

4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
3 Small Pox
3 Crucible of Worlds

Where you wanna go from there is your own choice. Meta your deck based off your surroundings. Add Innocent Blood against Thresh, Duress against Solidarity. Ect. You know the drill.

This is the strongest base I've found for the deck.

[Moczoc]

I lust looked for cards that can become a creature for a turn and i found Genju of the Spires: 1 Mana to play, 2 Mana to activate and hits for 6!! but ... its Red :confused: (/edit: oh, i forgot that you have to tap it to attack, so you can count it as 3 to activate .. but another red inclusion may be Storm World ;) )

@bane_of_the_living: Have you testet Mox Diamond in that build too?

Then, what about Dark Ritual, is it maybe a wastet Slot? I cant image broken moves with it in a pox Deck ?!

[Bane of the Living]

The reason I left Ritual and Mox off the list is because the accelerant slot should be played at your own disgression. Ive played Pox with Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond, I found either to be too much with Dark Ritual. It gives you bad hands like land, land, mox, ritual, land. The deck needs to stay threat heavy. Adding too many dead draws is bad. The deck usually wins the attrition war mid-late game so its best to focus on card quality rather than speed.

I prefer Dark Ritual for its explosive nature but I run it with Totem. Ritual can be played with 2-4 mox but I found them much less needed with Totem's mana helping.

[Aggro_zombies]

I lust looked for cards that can become a creature for a turn and i found Genju of the Spires: 1 Mana to play, 2 Mana to activate and hits for 6!! but ... its Red :confused: (/edit: oh, i forgot that you have to tap it to attack, so you can count it as 3 to activate .. but another red inclusion may be Storm World ;) )

@bane_of_the_living: Have you testet Mox Diamond in that build too?

Then, what about Dark Ritual, is it maybe a wastet Slot? I cant image broken moves with it in a pox Deck ?!
I don't think Genju is worth a splash. Why? Well, first of all, almost every deck running either white or green (ie, most decks in this format) run either Disenchant or Naturalize. Secondly, there's already a black Genju (albiet not very good, but still). Third...Genjus are just generally not great.

And look at the mana curve for Pox before you criticize Dark Ritual. Ever gone turn one, Swamp, Ritual, Pox before? On the play, they lose 3 cards...on the draw, they lose a land, maybe a man, and cards in hand. Or how about turn one, Swamp, Ritual, Duress, Hymn against combo? Kinda hard to go off if your hand just got destroyed. Or you can go turn one, Swamp, Ritual, Phyrexian Totem, then have three mana on turn two. There are lots of good things to do with Dark Ritual - the deck is built to take advantage of Dark Ritual because nothing costs more than three mana to play. You can cast every single card in your deck (aside from lands, obviously) with a turn one Ritual. That's huge.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Has anyone considered Senseis Top? I havent tested with it, but this deck really needs a way out of topdeck mode and this could be the answer. When you have a beater on the board, you can now consistently draw threats to lock your opponent down, and if you need a beater, it can help find it.

[Windux]

This deck made Top2 on the Dutch Legacy Champs.
Some "Rudi" palyed the Deck, but I'm sorry that I only noticed his first name.
Rudi if you are on the forum, we played round 3 (UWB Fish, where I won on 1 Life with Serra Avenger).

[AnwarA101]

This deck made Top2 on the Dutch Legacy Champs.
Some "Rudi" palyed the Deck, but I'm sorry that I only noticed his first name.
Rudi if you are on the forum, we played round 3 (UWB Fish, where I won on 1 Life with Serra Avenger).

Yeah here is the list posted by drudie on The Mana Drain -

4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Crucible of Worlds
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
2 Mishra's Factory

SB:
4 Infest
3 Spinning Darkness
3 Funeral Charm
3 Oppression
2 Cabal Therapy

Looks interesting. I'm not sure what he does against Aether Vial, but it did pretty well.

[Bane of the Living]

That list looks very similar to the others being posted here. Looks like we have a solid decklist and good results. Can a mod please move the discussion to the Open forums. I believe Pox was there to begin with.

I like his sb although Im wondering what matches you want FC's against and what you side out for them. Props on using secret tech of Oppression in the side. We found that gem years ago.

[Aggro_zombies]

I like his sb although Im wondering what matches you want FC's against and what you side out for them. Props on using secret tech of Oppression in the side. We found that gem years ago.
FC's are good against Gobs - turn one Lackey answer. If they're maindeck, they're never dead, but they're never fabulous either.

[Bane of the Living]

Right theyre never stellar just 'good' which makes it a fine maindeck card but I just dont see situations where you'd want to sideboard it. There are so many good cards to fit in your sb.

[Clark Kant]

Needless to say, I'm very happy that this deck is putting up very strong results. I do think that it's about time it gets moved to the open forum.

Just for reference, here's what I've been running for about a month now...

18 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit - I've gone back and forth on this.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Small Pox
4 Pox

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole

3 Chimeric Idol
3 Nether Spirit
2 Phyrexian Totem

I just haven't been too happy with Crucible of Worlds is all. It just sits there not doing much some games. I like having threats to finish off my opponent.

But certainly, it's obviously a viable option, esp if you're runing Mishra's Factory. Factory is solid but it can't be used to cast Pox. Then again, that's what you have Ritual for.

I think that's the only question left to answer really. Is crucible/mishra's factory in or should we stick with Totem and basic swamps.

The other minor question is Cabal Pit, is the lifeloss too much for this deck?

[Bane of the Living]

I find Crucible to be a staple in the deck. If its not doing anything for you your not playing the deck geared to it enough. You should discard land to SmallPox and Pox w/ Crucible out. You should be playing roughly 4 Fetchlands because they help you hit triple black with Crucible as well as thin the deck. Factory seems to replace Nether Spirit once found. Altho he's free he doesnt trade with Mongoose on the defense.

Cabal Pit is weak because you dont hit threshold reliably. You dont play cantrips, you only play 4 fetches if you play them at all. Ive taken a good 3-4 points of damage off these before getting an activation in. Maybe as a 1 of but I wouldnt suggest more.

[Clark Kant]

You make some good points. I keep going back and forth on Cabal Pit precisely due to the lifeloss you mentioned.

I've never tried out fetchlands with crucible, but yeah, it's a worthwhile idea.

Perhaps, I'll try the Dutch top 2 list, but cut the 2 pits and run 4 fetchlands and see if I start liking Crucible better then.

[Aggro_zombies]

Fetchlands are an interesting idea, but I don't like the life loss they cause. One thing I'm wondering about, then, is Terramorphic Expanse. It's a fetchland minus the lifeloss, but it also keeps you from opening with fetch, crack the fetch, play a spell, pass. Still, it provides all the benefits you're looking for without damaging your life total.

I have an updated list that I'll post here later. I'm trying out Powder Kegs now for Vials.

[Illissius]

I posted this list at TML (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30881.0) recently:

4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Nether Spirit
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Cabal Pit
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
9 Swamp
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 9 other cards

It solves the "Factories are good, but don't cast Pox", "you sacrifice too much of your own land", and such issues by using Diamonds and Crucibles. I rather like how it all fits together.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Well, I ended up going to the Mana Clash with Pox. I expected a lot of Goblins and Threshold, with a couple of people packing Solidarity. Boy was I wrong. I didnt see a single Goblins or Threshold deck, nor did I face any Solidarity. I ended up playing against:

U/W Angel Control
Ravager
RGW Mangara Survival
Faerie Stompy
Welder/Stax/Nantuko Shade/4-colornoobjank.dec

Im pretty sure this was my list

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
15 Swamp

3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Nether Spirit

4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Duress
4 Hymm to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
3 Infest

3 Cranial Extraction
3 E. Plague
2 Sudden Death
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Phyrexian Negator

So, Round 1 I played U/W Angel Control. Game 1 I drop 1st turn Phyrexian Totem and he allows it. He plays Tundra, go. I drop Swamp, tap Totem and swamp, play Sinkhole and Duress. He reveals a hand of StP, FoF, Rune Snag, Island, Brainstorm. He makes his next few land drops while I topdeck swamps and Wastelands. He resolves a FoF, flips something like FoW, Pristine Angel, Pristine Angel, Exalted Angel, Tundra. I scooped. Game 2 I side in Sudden Deaths and Negators, taking out 2 Spirits and 3 Infests. I play 1st turn Duress Hymm, ripping his Brainstorm and a Pristine and StP. 2nd Turn I Sinkhole, 3rd turn Phyrexian Totem, 4th turn Negator and he scoops up. Game 3 the only thing I remember is me being at 4 with him having an Exalted Angel on the board and I topdeck Innocent Blood. We go back and forth a few turns until he drops Pristine Angel into Pristine Angel and rides it for the win.

0-1

Ravager was a little easier. Game 1 I open a hand of Swamp, Wasteland, Swamp, Sinkhole, Hymm, Smallpox. So I kept it and he goes land, Vial. I draw into Dark Ritual, so I play Swamp and pass. He forgets vial so it stays at 0 and he drops a Nexus and Ravager. I draw into Nether Spirit so I go land, Ritual, Smallpox, discard Spirit, tap Swamp, Hymm. I Hymm 2 lands from his hand and pass the turn. He puts vial at 1 and passes. I drop Wasteland and waste his land and ride Spirit to the win. He didnt see any creatures besides Frogs and Enforcers and I had the LD to keep him off Affinity.

Game 2 I side in 4 Leylines and 2 Sudden Deaths for 3 Infests and 3 Pox. I figured that Leylines ability to shut off his Modular and Disciple was more important than Poxing. I was right. I opened with a Leyline and went aggro with 1st turn Totem beats. I must say 1st turn Totem, 2nd turn Sinkhole is pretty damn good.

I cant really anything much past this point because I stopped trying to remember my games because it was 3 AM. All I really remember was crushing Fairy Stompy, losing to RGSA because we both got deckchecked, making it a 1 game match, where he pulled out with a last second Mangara to remove my lethal Spirit. He was at 2. I lost to noob jank the last round too. The guy played Crucibles, Smokestacks, Tangle Wires, Goblin Welders, Bobs, Jittes, SoFI, Nantuko Shades, and some green spells. I couldnt even decide what direction to go after he played Wheel of Fate. :(

Overall, I was alright with my game, but I was disappointed I couldnt use Crucibles. Wastelock would have spelt GG against all my opponents for the most part. Phyrexian Totem is a house and should really be an auto-include. The fact that he taps for BLACK mana is such a boon for this deck. Sudden Death is also MVP. That card made so many people rethink their strategy.

[Aggro_zombies]

Okay, I promised to post a new list and here it is. I haven't done much testing with it yet since I've been busy trying to not fail organic chemistry, but hopefully I'll be able to take it through at least a few games before next tournament.

3 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
3 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Powder Keg
3 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Infest
3 Phyrexian Totem
2 Crucible of Worlds

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Duress
3 Oppression
4 Sudden Death
4 Leyline of the Void

One thing I've found in the Goblins matchup is that the major hurt there is Aether Vial. It's sort of like giving them unlimited lands to play their best dudes. It also allows them to drop guys EOT, which is problematic for you because most of your removal is sorcery speed (I ran Smothers in the Kegs' slots). It allows them to effectively circumvent your land destruction strategy, thus invalidating a large part of your deck. So, I'm testing Kegs to deal with Vials and level the field there, and they have the side benefit of blowing up Needles naming Totem. One thing, though - do I have enough win conditions? Should I fit some Mishra's Factory in there?

[Bane of the Living]

Absolutely play Factory. He's really good in the deck. Having all your kill conditions avoid Pox and Infest is just unfairness. Its like Landstill with Wrath and man lands.

People playing Factory can push for Cabal Therapy as well since you then have Nether Spirit and recurring Factory to flash it back with.

It looks like all these lists are starting to mirror eachother.

Can this deck be moved to open?

[Giles]

It looks like all these lists are starting to mirror eachother.


I agree that all the Pox deck are looking the same. So we should talk about theroy.

I have been playing Pox for the last month or so an want to ask some questions.
When is the best time to play pox?

I so far I can not find the best time to play it. Should I hold on to it for the long game or Use it T2 and after?

[jebus]

I have been playing Pox for the last month or so an want to ask some questions.
When is the best time to play pox?

I so far I can not find the best time to play it. Should I hold on to it for the long game or Use it T2 and after?

A phrase i used to hear about this is "pox early, pox often, pox hard."

But i guess it's really about timing it to get an advantage out of the "1/3 rounded up" dynamic, breaking the card's symmetry simply by playing it at the right time. A good rule of thumb is to play it when your lands and hand are at 3X [usually 3 lands and 3 or 0 cards in hand], and your opponent is at 3X+1 [1, 4, 7, etc], for maximum advantage, or maybe even 3X+2. Then again, i've found that poxing with an opponent at any amount but 0 or 3 lands, and with 4 or more cards in hand, is a good play in general, as long as you're at 3X. This of course gets better with a spirit in hand and/or a crucible in play.

Is there really an absolute need for mana acceleration [mox, ritual]? With a relatively low and flat curve, does the deck not benefit from using the slots usually reserved for accel to boost the land count and add more threats/utility? My testing has been inconclusive so far, what are your thoughts on it?

[Giles]

A phrase i used to hear about this is "pox early, pox often, pox hard."


That is what I heard too, however you never want to pox on T1.
I like you math for the best pox possaible.


I going to post my current list of Pox:

2 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
9 Swamps
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Ghost Quarter

3 Nether Spirit

4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Engineered Plague
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pox
3 Crucibal of Worlds
2 Funeral Charm
4 Mox Diamond

SB:
2 Engineered Plague
2 Funeral Charm
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Infest
2 Opperssion/ Chains

Some notes on the deck:
I do not like Chains or Opperssion, I think there might be a better spell to take the spot, since I had Reset decks still win with one out there.

I was using Funeral Charm for Lackey hate, however this might need to be repalced since you can kill it (and the other goblin) even if you do take one from him.

I have set up the deck for more aggro meta, since that what alot of MWS is.

[jebus]

Poxing on your first turn is just plain bad.

On the play, you lose 2 cards [Ritual and Pox], you sac the land you just played, and you discard 2 more cards, leaving you with no lands and 2 cards in hand. Your opponent discards 3 cards, but doesn't lose a land drop. It's almost like restarting the game with your opponent on the play with a 5 card hand, and you on the draw with a 2 card hand. Not good.

On the draw, you lose the same amount as above, but have 3 cards left in hand instead. Your opponent loses his first land, maybe his one-drop creature, and 2 cards in hand. Slightly better than poxing on the play, but still meh.

As for your list, it seems to be short 4 cards, which i assume are lands. 18 land and 4 Mox Diamond, even with 3 Crucible, is far from adequate. also, how is having just 3 Factory and 3 Spirit as threats working for you?

[xsockmonkeyx]

A) Mountain, Lackey, Go.

B) Swamp, Diamond, Smallpox


Against goblins a turn 1 smallpox can keep your opponant from exploding on you.

[jebus]

I was talking about big Pox. Turn 1 Smallpox [on the draw] is a lot more managable, and could be a good play [as in the example].

[Bane of the Living]

Turn one if your opponent opens with a land and a creature that leaves the magic number 5 in their hand. You draw a card, play a swamp and pox. That leaves you both with no board and 3 cards in hand.

This might not seem like the best idea since your opponent gets the first turn after that, but remember how well your deck runs under such conditions. Everything can be cast for under 3 mana and your deck is designed to heal itself. If you have one card to break Pox synergies you come out ahead. This can be a NS in hand or a Crucible in play.

Your opponent on the other hand might've been relying on a land light hand or a hand totally banking on the turn one lackey. You force bad discard choices on your opponent when they've only seen 7 cards. They dont know if its ok to discard a land, or a key piece of their plan because they dont know what their next available resources are. Playing Pox before your opponent sets up a plan for themselves is detrimental.

Taking 7 life out of your opponent on turn one is some good btw.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, I played my previously posted list today in a local Legacy tourney (but I decided to do -2 Swamp, +2 Mishra's Factory beforehand) and got my ass handed to me. I beat Salvagers Game and lost to CAL, Madness (Fucking manascrew!!!) and Life.dec (!!!!!!!!!!!!). No, I am not lying. I lost to madness because I had to go to four cards game one before I got any lands, and game two I got the dreaded mana flood. WTF. Cal was just...bad, since I really lose to LftL and he knew my list ahead of time and anticipated me siding in Leyline of the Voids to hose him. Life.dec was absolutely hideous - I get him down to one life in one game and then get stuck drawing swamps while he draws combo pieces. Btw, Poxing your opponent for 2 million life is kinda funny.

One thing I'm starting to wonder about this deck: what would happen if, say, it went in a more Stax-like direction? The decks already share a lot of similarities and running Disruption.dec is just brutal. Not sure how exactly you would pull this off, though, since Ancient Tomb would be bad here (life loss ftl) and diluting your mana base with all that colorless mana makes it harder to cast a timely Pox. Casting a timely Pox becomes slightly less important when you run Smokestack and Tangle Wire, though, so...what do the rest of you think? Yay or nay on that idea? And if so, should I make up a rough list and post it for critique?

[erdjinn]

One thing I'm starting to wonder about this deck: what would happen if, say, it went in a more Stax-like direction? The decks already share a lot of similarities and running Disruption.dec is just brutal. Not sure how exactly you would pull this off, though, since Ancient Tomb would be bad here (life loss ftl) and diluting your mana base with all that colorless mana makes it harder to cast a timely Pox. Casting a timely Pox becomes slightly less important when you run Smokestack and Tangle Wire, though, so...what do the rest of you think? Yay or nay on that idea? And if so, should I make up a rough list and post it for critique?

I have tested Pox much and I think the control part is already good. The problem has always been the win condition because the Rack and Cursed Scroll are not so efficient in killing your opponent. The second problem is that we don't have any draw/search engine.
As you said going to a Stax direction would ruin your manabase, which is already unstable without Crucible since you're destroying your lands also.

[erdjinn]

I have a question about having multiple Nether Spirits. I wouldn't include more than 1 to avoid having 2 in my graveyard. I see many lists instead pack 3. Is this effective? Never had problems with multiple Spirits in your graveyard?

I was planning to run Undead Gladiator instead to ensure some recursive draw in the late game. Gladiator + Crucible should be quite slow but solid (when you draw land you cicle the gladiator and play the land from your graveyard the following turn). Gladiator is also good without Crucible to clear your hand from useless cards. What do you think?

[Aggro_zombies]

I have a question about having multiple Nether Spirits. I wouldn't include more than 1 to avoid having 2 in my graveyard. I see many lists instead pack 3. Is this effective? Never had problems with multiple Spirits in your graveyard?

I was planning to run Undead Gladiator instead to ensure some recursive draw in the late game. Gladiator + Crucible should be quite slow but solid (when you draw land you cicle the gladiator and play the land from your graveyard the following turn). Gladiator is also good without Crucible to clear your hand from useless cards. What do you think?
Run one and in most games you won't draw it unless you go into the late game. Run three and you may or may not draw a second one. As for me, I'm going to go back to running two.

I've also started experimenting with the mana base. The annoying thing about this deck is my mana issues - either I draw no land or only colorless sources and get mana screwed, or I draw too many lands and get flooded. If I was having only one or the other problem, the solution would be straightfoward, but...I'm not sure how to fix it in this case aside from shuffling the living hell out of my deck. I'm going to try experimenting with the following mana configuration:

13 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory (also a win condition)
3 Terramorphic Expanse

4 Dark Ritual
3 Phyrexian Totem

I'm also going to go -1 Infest, +1 Crucible of Worlds. As for Expanse, what's the deal with that? Well, the problem I have with regular fetches is the life loss. I would prefer to inflict as little life loss on myself as possible, considering I run both Pox and Smallpox. But that aside, the thinning / shuffling effect from fetches is very good in this deck. My solution? I only run basics for colored mana, so Terramorphic Expanse fits the bill as a fetch that doesn't make me lose life. Unfortunately, I can't open Expanse, fetch, spell, go, but I also don't drop to 19 on turn one and I won't lose life recurring and reusing it with Crucible. Anyway, here's my deck at the moment:

Weezing

13 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory (win condition)
3 Terramorphic Expanse

2 Nether Spirit (win condition)

4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
3 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Powder Keg
3 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Infest
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Phyrexian Totem (win condition)

SB:
4 Duress
4 Sudden Death
3 Oppression
4 Leyline of Void

I figure I can get away with 3 Crucible without it being too annoying since I run seven self-discard effects now. Anyway, comments?

[C-Aleric]

There is no way, someone could convince me that Terramorphic Expanse is better in Legacy.

When I compare the two, it's like this:

Fetch-land: Thins your deck, gets you the land you need, you then proceed to play normally, as nothing has happened out of the ordinary.

Terra-Morph: Thins your deck, gets you the land you need, you then prodeed to do nothing, and you pass the turn, because you basically Time-walked your turn away.

It's only one life. It shouldn't be breaking a game. Recurring one, shouldn't be necessary. It doesn't seem like you'll need tonnes and tonnes of mana late game. You shouldn't have to fetch each turn later in the game with Crucible. If you keep casting pox and such, you can just replay swamps. And not bother fetching more. I understand you want to thin your deck/shuffle, but really, you want to be active the turn your land comes into play more than you want to not lose 1 life.

[Complete_Jank]

I took 1st with my deck that uses small pox last week.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4599

[erdjinn]

@Aggro_zombies why no the rack?
It's a good win condition. I use 4.

[Aggro_zombies]

@Aggro_zombies why no the rack?
It's a good win condition. I use 4.
Because I don't have enough discard in the maindeck or post-board to make it worth my while. Playing Pox or Smallpox just to make them discard is not usually a good idea.

[Complete_Jank]

I think there should be two different approaches to the Small Pox card.

Either a Black/White board control deck or a Green/Black with Eternal Witnesses and Life from the Loam, and possibly Genesis.

[erdjinn]

I prefer the MonoB route of the original Pox build + Crucible to recur lands.
Take out Diabolic Edict and throw in Smallpox that adds discard and land destruction to creature removal. Phyrexian Totem is a nice add also being both a finisher and a mana source.

[erdjinn]

I am currently working on this list:
Maindeck
//Lands: 20
12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory

//Spells: 24
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

//Artifacts: 15
4 Mox Diamond
4 The Rack
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds

//Creatures: 2
1 Nether Spirit
1 Undead Gladiator

Sideboard (quite sure slots)
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
(completely debatable slots)
2 Zuran Orb
2 Perish
1 Darkblast

I'd like to ask your experience on a few points:
1) are 20 lands enough for 4 Mox Diamond?
2) how many Crucible of Worlds: 3 or 2?
3) how many Phyrexian Totem: 2 or 3?
4) The Rack: hot or not?
5) Cursed Scroll: hot or not?
6) Nether Spirit: 1, 2 or 3?
7) any idea to draw a bit? (I am going to try Undead Gladiator)

[Complete_Jank]

I'd like to ask your experience on a few points:
1) are 20 lands enough for 4 Mox Diamond?
2) how many Crucible of Worlds: 3 or 2?
3) how many Phyrexian Totem: 2 or 3?
4) The Rack: hot or not?
5) Cursed Scroll: hot or not?
6) Nether Spirit: 1, 2 or 3?
7) any idea to draw a bit? (I am going to try Undead Gladiator)

1. No, but in addition, why 4 Diamonds and 4 Rituals?
2. Three
3. None
4. Not
5. Not
6. If you are going this route run 3 or 4.
7. Phyrexian Arena if you feel you need it.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'd like to ask your experience on a few points:
1) are 20 lands enough for 4 Mox Diamond?
2) how many Crucible of Worlds: 3 or 2?
3) how many Phyrexian Totem: 2 or 3?
4) The Rack: hot or not?
5) Cursed Scroll: hot or not?
6) Nether Spirit: 1, 2 or 3?
7) any idea to draw a bit? (I am going to try Undead Gladiator)
1) No. Try at least 23-24 lands if yo want to adequately support Mox Diamond.
2) I'd say 3 in the absence of draw, 2 with it. Drawing multiples sucks but you want to draw at least one per game.
3) 3. This card is the nutz.
4) Depends on your build and how reliably you can keep your opponent within Rack damage range. However, I am generally of the opinion that the Rack is not synergistic with this deck due to the amount of resource denial - specifically mana denial - that you run. When your oppenent has no mana, they can't typically play spells. If they can't spells, the cards they draw tend to build up in their hand. This does not work well with the Rack.
5) I think Phyrexian Totem is generally better because it does more damage and isn't totally dead if they drop a Needle naming it.
6) 2-3. I've been happy with both numbers, but one is too few to reliably draw it in a game.
7) This is one of the main problems of this deck. Most of black's good card draw makes you lose some amount of life. Once upon a time, I ran a build with Zuran Orb and Phyrexian Arena with Crucible in it, the idea being that you could sacrifice lands if you needed to make up for the life loss from Pox and Arena. This build had a number of problems, though - mostly that Orb sucks, and it sucks even more when they Pithing Needle it. Pox generally tries to be a proactive control deck, actively doing stuff on its turn to advance its game. Zuran Orb doesn't advance the deck's game, isn't terribly proactive, and a good Pox build shouldn't need craptastic lifegain anyway. If you're that desperate for life, play Vicious Hunger or something like that and have it actually be useful. Anyway...because Pox decks tend to lose life pretty quickly, most of black's card draw is out. I'm not a big fan of Gladiator, just because I've never liked the card.

[Moczoc]

We could keep the opp's handsize down for The Rack if we replace Sinkhole with Wrench Mind (or Gerrards Verdict) .. if we then play more Totems like 3-4 the deck will sure kill faster. I don't know if it is the right direction. but it seems worth thinking about.

[Bane of the Living]

I am currently working on this list:
Maindeck
//Lands: 20
12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory

//Spells: 24
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

//Artifacts: 15
4 Mox Diamond
4 The Rack
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds

//Creatures: 2
1 Nether Spirit
1 Undead Gladiator

Sideboard (quite sure slots)
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
(completely debatable slots)
2 Zuran Orb
2 Perish
1 Darkblast

I'd like to ask your experience on a few points:
1) are 20 lands enough for 4 Mox Diamond?
2) how many Crucible of Worlds: 3 or 2?
3) how many Phyrexian Totem: 2 or 3?
4) The Rack: hot or not?
5) Cursed Scroll: hot or not?
6) Nether Spirit: 1, 2 or 3?
7) any idea to draw a bit? (I am going to try Undead Gladiator)

Here is my opinion based on my pox testing.
1) None. Drawing Mox mid-late game losses you the game. You dont have card draw or selection. Besides if you dont have crucible its shitty since you lose card advantage in a deck that already makes itself discard cards. Stick to ritual.
2) Three. These get countered and blown up constantly. Extras can be discarded to pox effects.
3) 2-3 Totem. As good as it is its a needle target.
4) This is based on your own preference. It also depends on wether or not your playing Duress as additional discard. More discard or more removal? Adapt to your meta.
5) Not too hot but effective. Id run 2 at most.
6) If your not playing three you shouldnt be playing any at all. The fourth should be played in the board against anything playing swords to plowshares. I side him out against solidarity and thresh for Phyrexian Negator alot though so Im beginning to question his role in the deck. Especially when crucible is incorperated.
7) Dark Confidant if your meta is light on goblins. Phyrexian Arena otherwise. You shouldnt be caught without one or other imo. You need card draw or the deck just dies off late game no matter how busted a start it gets.

[Aggro_zombies]

Here is my opinion based on my pox testing.
1) None. Drawing Mox mid-late game losses you the game. You dont have card draw or selection. Besides if you dont have crucible its shitty since you lose card advantage in a deck that already makes itself discard cards. Stick to ritual.
2) Three. These get countered and blown up constantly. Extras can be discarded to pox effects.
3) 2-3 Totem. As good as it is its a needle target.
4) This is based on your own preference. It also depends on wether or not your playing Duress as additional discard. More discard or more removal? Adapt to your meta.
5) Not too hot but effective. Id run 2 at most.
6) If your not playing three you shouldnt be playing any at all. The fourth should be played in the board against anything playing swords to plowshares. I side him out against solidarity and thresh for Phyrexian Negator alot though so Im beginning to question his role in the deck. Especially when crucible is incorperated.
7) Dark Confidant if your meta is light on goblins. Phyrexian Arena otherwise. You shouldnt be caught without one or other imo. You need card draw or the deck just dies off late game no matter how busted a start it gets.
Do you have a list, bane? I'd be interested to see what you're testing.

[erdjinn]

1. No, but in addition, why 4 Diamonds and 4 Rituals?
Diamond has a good sinergy with the deck core: Pox and Crucible.
Rituals are so good I haven't considered taking them out.
The problem is that 20 lands + 4 Moxes + 4 Rituals = 28 dead draws in the late game.
I'll try taking a couple Moxes out.


3) 3. This card is the nutz.
4) Depends on your build and how reliably you can keep your opponent within Rack damage range. However, I am generally of the opinion that the Rack is not synergistic with this deck due to the amount of resource denial - specifically mana denial - that you run. When your oppenent has no mana, they can't typically play spells. If they can't spells, the cards they draw tend to build up in their hand. This does not work well with the Rack.
5) I think Phyrexian Totem is generally better because it does more damage and isn't totally dead if they drop a Needle naming it.
6) 2-3. I've been happy with both numbers, but one is too few to reliably draw it in a game.
7) This is one of the main problems of this deck. Most of black's good card draw makes you lose some amount of life. Once upon a time, I ran a build with Zuran Orb and Phyrexian Arena with Crucible in it, the idea being that you could sacrifice lands if you needed to make up for the life loss from Pox and Arena. This build had a number of problems, though - mostly that Orb sucks, and it sucks even more when they Pithing Needle it. Pox generally tries to be a proactive control deck, actively doing stuff on its turn to advance its game. Zuran Orb doesn't advance the deck's game, isn't terribly proactive, and a good Pox build shouldn't need craptastic lifegain anyway. If you're that desperate for life, play Vicious Hunger or something like that and have it actually be useful. Anyway...because Pox decks tend to lose life pretty quickly, most of black's card draw is out. I'm not a big fan of Gladiator, just because I've never liked the card.

3) It seems really good on paper.
4) Duress + Pox + Smallpox + Hymn = 16 discard spells. I think they're many. 8 of them are also land destruction spells, with Wasteland and Sinkhole you have 16 total. With Pox opponent can't keep lands in their hand, with the Rack they can't drop them.
5) I'd still run one because at worst it will trade 1 for 1 with the opponent's Needle/Disenchant.
6) I have to try this. But I'd hate playing Pox/Smallpox with both a Spirit in hand and one in play.
7) .. continues from point 6) ... So I decided to take one Spirit out for 1 Gladiator. Have to try him also.


Do you have a list, bane? I'd be interested to see what you're testing.
I'd be interested too.

[Aggro_zombies]

4) Duress + Pox + Smallpox + Hymn = 16 discard spells. I think they're many. 8 of them are also land destruction spells, with Wasteland and Sinkhole you have 16 total. With Pox opponent can't keep lands in their hand, with the Rack they can't drop them.
...and if they can't drop them, where do those spells go? To a retirement home in Miami? Here's a little theory behind the game: in most cases, if your opponent does not have lands or mana, they can't play spells. Those spells stay in their hand, since they can't get them out by playing them. While this is going on, said opponent is drawing at least one card per turn. This means that, since they have a +1 input and no output, they have a net +1 increase in cards in hand per turn. You need a lot more than 16 discard spells to reliably keep your opponent below three cards every turn - they have a 100% chance of increasing their hand size every turn, while you have a 16/60=26.67% chance of drawing a solution to that. There's a bit of discrepancy there.

That said, here's my latest list. Yes, I tinker with it quite a bit, but I'm trying to make it competitive...any idea on how to fit card draw in there? I refuse to add Undead Gladiator.

13 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory

4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
3 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Infest
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Chimeric Idol
3 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
4 Duress
3 Powder Keg
3 Oppression
1 Phyrexian Totem
4 Leyline of the Void

[Bane of the Living]

Here is our latest incarnation.

12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory

4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Infest
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Nether Spirit
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:
3 Duress
2 Sudden Death
3 Oppression
3 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void

Very close to your build. I've been trying Top as a method of card draw/selection. Fetchlands and Crucible are nice with it.

[Sea R Hill]

What are you running Oppression for?
Isn't Contamination better?

BTW, you don't want to play the top, it does nothing and eats your mana.
I also don't understand people who doesn't play 4 Smallpox, this card is awesome.
I am not an big fan of innocent blood, funeral charm can do more things and spinning darkness does the same thing as innocent blood in 80% cases, plus you gain 3 life, which is very important in this deck, and it let you get rid of an extra Nether Spirit.

[erdjinn]

...and if they can't drop them, where do those spells go? To a retirement home in Miami? Here's a little theory behind the game: in most cases, if your opponent does not have lands or mana, they can't play spells. Those spells stay in their hand, since they can't get them out by playing them. While this is going on, said opponent is drawing at least one card per turn. This means that, since they have a +1 input and no output, they have a net +1 increase in cards in hand per turn. You need a lot more than 16 discard spells to reliably keep your opponent below three cards every turn - they have a 100% chance of increasing their hand size every turn, while you have a 16/60=26.67% chance of drawing a solution to that. There's a bit of discrepancy there.

If my opponent always keeps the card he draws in hand I win, regardless of my deck. :wink:
Just kidding, I have tested much Pox deck before the rotation and I had less discard since I run Diabolic Edict in Smallpox's place. (The deck run also Hypnotic Specter and Mindstab Trulls that got constantly removed by my opponent, so I decided to cut both). The Rack was very useful then, so I think it could be useful also now.

@ Aggro_zombies and bane_of_the_living: thank you both for the lists.
One problem I was thinking of is Pithing Needle. Almost every deck packs 2-4 copies maindeck and/or sideboard. You have almost no way to take a Needle out when in play and only 2-3 win condition, 2 of which Needleable. Isn't that too few?

[Aggro_zombies]

What are you running Oppression for?
Isn't Contamination better?

BTW, you don't want to play the top, it does nothing and eats your mana.
I also don't understand people who doesn't play 4 Smallpox, this card is awesome.
I am not an big fan of innocent blood, funeral charm can do more things and spinning darkness does the same thing as innocent blood in 80% cases, plus you gain 3 life, which is very important in this deck, and it let you get rid of an extra Nether Spirit.
Oppression doesn't require you to sacrifice a creature every turn, and it gives you something to do with lands you draw. It's also useful against black-based storm decks or storm decks that don't rely on having a lot of lands in play (IGGY Pop, for example). The only real reason to run Contamination over Oppression is that the former totally screws Solidarity if you can maintain it and they don't counter it.

Innocent Blood is better in the Threshold matchup / X Stompy matchup than either of the cards you listed. In a more Goblin-oriented meta, however, I would generally agree with you. However, Innocent blood can deal with a threshed Werebear, a Mongoose or Mystic Enforcer in any state, an equiped E-Angel, etc.

Every deck in Legacy (well, all the top-tier ones, anyway) has some way to generate card advantage or at least control to some extent how good its draws are. Goblins has Matron and Ringleader, Thresh has Chain-o'-Cantrips (tm), Solidarity has their whole deck minus the lands and Brain Freezes, IGG has Intuition and Brainstorm, and so on. Pox has...nada. Really, it has jack shit when it comes to the "improving card quality" department. You can devastated your opponent, but all your hard work will be wasted when they drop that next Ringleader or Predict and start pulling ahead of you. Top allows you a certain ability to influence your draws (ie, helps you to not topdeck lots of lands late-game) as well as drawing you cards in a pinch. Sure, it eats mana and does nothing by itself, but the ability to save you from drawing your fifth straight land by bringing a Pox to the top is priceless, as Visa would say.


One problem I was thinking of is Pithing Needle. Almost every deck packs 2-4 copies maindeck and/or sideboard. You have almost no way to take a Needle out when in play and only 2-3 win condition, 2 of which Needleable. Isn't that too few?
I run Powder Keg in my board for just that scenario. It isn't maindeck so most opponents who don't know your list ahead of time (I hate when they do know that...cheating bastards) won't anticipate it. If they Needle your Totem, say, drop this and bring it to one counter, then blow it up and attack. If they Needle Keg, well, that's one Needle they didn't use on a victory condition. Either way, you're happy. Also, discard helps root Needles out of their hand before they see the light of day. If you're really paranoid about losing to Needles, either maindeck or side in Duress or Therapies and try ripping Needles with them.

A lot of opponents tend to side out Needles if they have them maindeck, though. Most people worry about stopping themselves from getting hit by LD + Pox + discard, and since Needles don't really help with that, they'll usually go for more counters or something to keep themselves from rolling over and dying to your disruption. That's how it's tended to work in my experience, anyway.

[Bane of the Living]

Oppression doesn't require you to sacrifice a creature every turn, and it gives you something to do with lands you draw. It's also useful against black-based storm decks or storm decks that don't rely on having a lot of lands in play (IGGY Pop, for example). The only real reason to run Contamination over Oppression is that the former totally screws Solidarity if you can maintain it and they don't counter it.

Innocent Blood is better in the Threshold matchup / X Stompy matchup than either of the cards you listed. In a more Goblin-oriented meta, however, I would generally agree with you. However, Innocent blood can deal with a threshed Werebear, a Mongoose or Mystic Enforcer in any state, an equiped E-Angel, etc.

Every deck in Legacy (well, all the top-tier ones, anyway) has some way to generate card advantage or at least control to some extent how good its draws are. Goblins has Matron and Ringleader, Thresh has Chain-o'-Cantrips (tm), Solidarity has their whole deck minus the lands and Brain Freezes, IGG has Intuition and Brainstorm, and so on. Pox has...nada. Really, it has jack shit when it comes to the "improving card quality" department. You can devastated your opponent, but all your hard work will be wasted when they drop that next Ringleader or Predict and start pulling ahead of you. Top allows you a certain ability to influence your draws (ie, helps you to not topdeck lots of lands late-game) as well as drawing you cards in a pinch. Sure, it eats mana and does nothing by itself, but the ability to save you from drawing your fifth straight land by bringing a Pox to the top is priceless, as Visa would say.


I run Powder Keg in my board for just that scenario. It isn't maindeck so most opponents who don't know your list ahead of time (I hate when they do know that...cheating bastards) won't anticipate it. If they Needle your Totem, say, drop this and bring it to one counter, then blow it up and attack. If they Needle Keg, well, that's one Needle they didn't use on a victory condition. Either way, you're happy. Also, discard helps root Needles out of their hand before they see the light of day. If you're really paranoid about losing to Needles, either maindeck or side in Duress or Therapies and try ripping Needles with them.

A lot of opponents tend to side out Needles if they have them maindeck, though. Most people worry about stopping themselves from getting hit by LD + Pox + discard, and since Needles don't really help with that, they'll usually go for more counters or something to keep themselves from rolling over and dying to your disruption. That's how it's tended to work in my experience, anyway.

QFT

Try out the tops and let me know what you think. The only other option I really see is Phyrexian Arena and its just so expensive.

[erdjinn]

I run Powder Keg in my board for just that scenario. It isn't maindeck so most opponents who don't know your list ahead of time (I hate when they do know that...cheating bastards) won't anticipate it. If they Needle your Totem, say, drop this and bring it to one counter, then blow it up and attack. If they Needle Keg, well, that's one Needle they didn't use on a victory condition. Either way, you're happy. Also, discard helps root Needles out of their hand before they see the light of day. If you're really paranoid about losing to Needles, either maindeck or side in Duress or Therapies and try ripping Needles with them.

Do you ever charge the Keg for more than 1?
Because if you use it only against Needles I would choose Engineered Explosives instead, or maybe a split Keg/EE (so they can't Needle it).

[Aggro_zombies]

Do you ever charge the Keg for more than 1?
Because if you use it only against Needles I would choose Engineered Explosives instead, or maybe a split Keg/EE (so they can't Needle it).
I use it for a variety of things, but mostly for Chalice, Aether Vial, and Needles. I've occassionally brought it to three before to nuke Faerie Stompy boards (especially if I only have lands in play), but other than that, it usually stays at none or one counters. I only use Kegs because, well, I have no EE and never bothered to proxy them for testing.

[Sea R Hill]

Erdjinn:

Powder Keg just need to be tapped. In most cases, you will break it with one counter on it, but in some cases (more often than you think) you can get rid of 2-mana drops, which are heavily played in legacy, like Werebear, meddling mage, Jitte, chalice,... and don't forgot than it can ruin affinity as soon as it comes in play (even if affinity is very rare in 1.5).

Aggro zombie:

Contamination upkeep cost can be paid either with Nether Spirit or with Mishra+Crucible. The problem of Oppression is that it makes you win against already easy MU. With 4 Hymn + 4 Duress MD combo just can't do anything (not to mention the 8 Poxes). The advantage of contamination is that it is usefull against way more decks than oppression.
I personnaly don't run innocent blood. I can deal with mongeese and bears with Powder kegs, Poxes and Mishras.

I will test Top, but I'm not sure of its effectiveness. Its seems to be a waste of mana, tempo and slots. It is great with fechlands though.

[Sea R Hill]

And have you thought about running SMokestack?

[lolosoon]

And have you thought about running SMokestack?
4cc spells are hard to cast when playing pox AND smallpox.

However, $t@x and Pox here have similar goal : depleting opponent's ressources. I think I've read a topic about Black Stax running Pox somewhere in these pages, if it can be of any help for you.

[EDIT]It wasn't Pox but Smallpox and it can be found HERE (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4618)

[Jankwolf]

I know that the topic of card draw in pox has been talked over....
And i know someone (instert name here) already suggested P.Arena...
Ive been testing them out as a two of and have had success with the loan two as well as mainboard spinning darkness to help with life loss...
Any thoughts?

[Aggro_zombies]

Erdjinn:

Powder Keg just need to be tapped. In most cases, you will break it with one counter on it, but in some cases (more often than you think) you can get rid of 2-mana drops, which are heavily played in legacy, like Werebear, meddling mage, Jitte, chalice,... and don't forgot than it can ruin affinity as soon as it comes in play (even if affinity is very rare in 1.5).

Aggro zombie:

Contamination upkeep cost can be paid either with Nether Spirit or with Mishra+Crucible. The problem of Oppression is that it makes you win against already easy MU. With 4 Hymn + 4 Duress MD combo just can't do anything (not to mention the 8 Poxes). The advantage of contamination is that it is usefull against way more decks than oppression.
I personnaly don't run innocent blood. I can deal with mongeese and bears with Powder kegs, Poxes and Mishras.

I will test Top, but I'm not sure of its effectiveness. Its seems to be a waste of mana, tempo and slots. It is great with fechlands though.
Chalice isn't a two-drop. Once it's off the stack, it has a CMC of zero, due to the fact that it has double X in its mana cost and X=0 anytime the card is not on the stack. ^___^

As for the Contamination issue, look at my list. I have no Duress maindeck. I also wouldn't use Contamination maindeck. As I said at some point earlier in this thread (or maybe on another site, who knows anymore), my sidebaord is a transformational one, or was at one point, at any rate. The problem with the card is that it doesn't significantly improve any matchups that aren't already good or can be dealt with sufficiently by Oppression. Against control, you have a favorable matchup sans either Oppression or Contamination because your deck is predicated on resource denial, which most control decks cant stomach. Against aggro, you have a ton of removal, so this card is not significant. And there are some aggro decks (mostly Vial Goblins) that don't actually need lands to play their men, making Contamination downright bad. Other decks it sucks against are black decks or decks with a significant black component (Suicide Black, Red Death, and Homebrew, to name a few on these boards), combo decks that don't need very many lands (Iggy), combo decks that don't need lands to go off because they rely on artifact mana sources (Salvagers Game)...and those are just the decks I can think of off the top of my head.

Another problem with Contamination is the timeframe you'll be playing it in. Against Solidarity (or other combo, for that matter), you can drop Oppression turn one via Ritual. This is important because at that point, the only answer the Solidarity player has is Force of Will. Contamination, on the other hand, requires either a Nether Spirit or the Ritual/Factory combo in play. This means that playing it turn one via Ritual is really, really dumb. Playing it turn two is also dumb unless you went Ritual, Spirt or Ritual, Crucible on turn one (and the latter requires you play a Factory on turn two) and you have another Ritual in hand. You could play Smallpox on turn two and discard a Spirit, I suppose, but you'll still need a Ritual in hand to play this on turn three if Solidarity didn't counter the Smallpox. By turn three, if you're on the draw, Solidarity is more than capable of going off in response to Contamination unless you spend your first several turns destroying thier hand, in which case you probably don't have the necessary "infrastructure," for lack of a better word, to support your Contamination anyway. If you wait until turn four...heaven help you then. I'll concede that if Contamination can hit play and stick, it's an absolute bomb against some decks. The problem is it has to hit play and stick. Sticking requires a significant investment ahead of time in the form of expending either lots of acceleration or otherwise compromising your gameplan. Oppression, by contrast, just needs to hit play. By the time the other deck can deal with the "sticking" part, you will have either set them far enough back in life or in resources that their ability to remove Oppression doesn't matter. Keep in mind that most of these decks will have to dig for bounce or a Cunning Wish to fetch bounce, both of which entail them incurring card disadvantage with Oppression.

And no, I don't think you should run Smokestack unless you take this deck in much more of a Stax direction, but that is another beast entirely. Keep in mind that this deck is built to abuse Dark Ritual. You will notice that almost every list in this thread consists entirely of cards that can be cast for three mana or less. If you have an opening hand of Swamp, Ritual, stuff, you can conceivably make every play in your deck turn one depending on what you get in "stuff."

[Sea R Hill]

Chalice isn't a two-drop. Once it's off the stack, it has a CMC of zero, due to the fact that it has double X in its mana cost and X=0 anytime the card is not on the stack. ^___^



I can't believe I said that...:wink: I was obviously tired!

I don't run Contamination MD, I have 2 in SB. I think it is good against random non-black decks, and you know there are a lot of random decks in legacy! Like I said, Oppression makes you win against MU that are already easily winnable. I don't see a High Tide deck getting through 4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 8 Poxes, 4 Sinkhole...

You were absolutely right about the top. After a few playtests I can say that it is AWESOME. I play 2 of them.

I play 3 Smokestack as well, with 3 Crucible and 3 Nether Spirit to support it. It is very strong. In all the games I played it was an autowin card.

[Clark Kant]

I've considered every suggestion posted here, but having proxied up and played the deck since the second that smallpox was spoiled, I'm almost certain that the original build is still the best...

20 Swamp/(18 Swamp/2 Mishra's Factory)
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
4 Smallpox

4 Innocent Blood
3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Phyrexian Totem/2 Crucible of Worlds

I really think that the main issues to be sorted out are ...

2 Crucible + 2 Factories vs. 2 Totem + 2 Swamp

and the possible inclusion of Infest for aggro heavy metas.

High casting cost cards like Smokestack really hurt the deck's consistency. Yes, Smokestack, Top and such are very powerful effects. I won't disagree with that. But they are also very slow and mana intensive, in a deck that tends to mana screw itself down to two lands pretty much every other game.

And card drawers like Phyrexian Arena and Night's Whispers just don't work well.

Of course, this could all change the moment that Wizards decides to print a halfway decent black card drawer that doesn't eat away at your life total. But until then, losing life to draw cards combined with all the life loss from Pox and Smallpox and the aggro weenie rushes this deck often faces have bitten me on too many occasion. There are far too many games where I finally stabilized at 1 or 2 life and came back to win for me to even consider trying Night's Whispers again.

It would be helpful if people who have tried both could weight in where they stand on the Crucible vs. Totem issue.

[Aggro_zombies]

It would be helpful if people who have tried both could weight in where they stand on the Crucible vs. Totem issue.
I would use both. The thing to keep in mind is that they actually perform very different functions in this deck, despite superficial functional appearances. Totem is a win condition that should be turning sideways in the Red Zone whenever you have the mana and board free to do so. Crucible enables Wastelock (tm) as well as recurring Cabal Pits and Factories if you run those. Both allow you to recover more quickly after a Pox, but Totem wants to attack post Pox more than anything else, so...run both.

[Bane of the Living]

This deck has been waiting for a rise to tier one for some time now. I think it deserves it. We should all play this at the next dual for duals or something. It will be the blackest brutal tournament. This deck also needs to be moved to the open forum. Aggro Zombies maybe you can collaberate something for a primer and stick it there yourself?

[Clark Kant]

I would use both. The thing to keep in mind is that they actually perform very different functions in this deck, despite superficial functional appearances.

Sorry, I should have explained more. Initially, it was never Crucible that Totem was up against, it was Mishra's Factory and Chimeric Idol.

Both cards are functionally very similar. But I settled on the idol over Totem a long time ago because it can deal with weenie attackers without costing you permanents, and without requiring you to leave three mana untapped. It also lets you continue to attack all while casting out your disruption. So three idols are an autoinclude. The same for Nether Spirit. It is a nutty good card since it lets you discard it to Pox or Small Pox and comes into play without paying any casting cost, which is a MASSIVE MASSIVE tempo boost.

So there were already by 6 attackers.

The deck really does not want to devote more than 8 slots to aggro cards. Now I just needed to decide on the last 2. If running Cruicible, Mishra's Factory is automatically superior imho, because once again, it can block without requiring you to lose permanents, and without forcing you to leave a ton of mana untapped. So that's why it seemed to be up against Cruicible but it never was.

If you think I should run 10 aggro cards, and have ideas on something else I should cut instead, I would love to hear your input.

[Bane of the Living]

Just so you remember this, Idol and Factory together = no synergy.

I dropped Idol when Totem was printed. He's strictly inferior to the 5/5 face smasher.

[Clark Kant]

How is idol strictly inferior? We're playing in a format packed with creatures afterall.

In a format full of 2/2s, Idol can block them, hold back an army of them from attacking, or attack through them. It can even trade with 3/3s. If you try to block a 3/3 or even a 2/2 with Totem, you're likely to most of your board. Plus totem costs 3 mana to make into an attacker. You can pox or smallpox the turn after idol and still attack with idol. Not only can you not use disruption the turn you attack with totem, but if you play pox or smallpox saccing one of your lands too, you often times can't activate totem next turn either.

[Bane of the Living]

How is idol strictly inferior? We're playing in a format packed with creatures afterall.

In a format full of 2/2s, Idol can block them, hold back an army of them from attacking, or attack through them. It can even trade with 3/3s. If you try to block a 3/3 or even a 2/2 with Totem, you're likely to most of your board. Plus totem costs 3 mana to make into an attacker. You can pox or smallpox the turn after idol and still attack with idol. Not only can you not use disruption the turn you attack with totem, but if you play pox or smallpox saccing one of your lands too, you often times can't activate totem next turn either.

I fully understand the merits of Chimeric Idol but even when he was able to do all the aforementioned he still didnt pull his weight. Its still a needle target, a disenchant, and a swords target. Although he can be activated for free he's really just a 3/3 dude with no evasion. I had problems keeping him alive with that body too. As a 5/5 Totem pretty much survives all encounters in the red zone. I've sacced 3 land with him out late game pretty easily, crucible makes it not so painfull. In the event that your opponent draws a needle for him at least he can still make mana. Speaking of which, the ability to provide mana makes him all the more usefull in builds running 7-8 pox effects. Phyrexian Totem may not be able to swing as often due to his activation costs, but he has to swing much less as well. Usually twice after playing pox. Mishras Factory replaced Idols role as a cheap blocker/attacker that's immune to pox effects, it works better if you ask me, acting as a mana source then creature secondary. Idol is vanilla and out dated.

[Clark Kant]

Mishras Factory replaced Idols role as a cheap blocker/attacker that's immune to pox effects, it works better if you ask me, acting as a mana source then creature secondary.

I still don't really consider Mishra's Factory a mana source.

A mana source just isn't a mana source if you can't use his mana. Sure he can be used to play some threats. But he is useless at letting you play any of your disruption. And disruption is what this deck is all about.

Say you smallpoxed second turn, happens all the time, and really want to play a second mana source to play the sinkhole you drew. Same with casting Pox, or Hymn or any of this decks disruption. Anyway you look at it, Factory is a threat first and a mana source second. But I guess it's all just semantics. And I certainly still advocate playing 2.

Swords, Needle, and Disenchant hit Totem too you know. Idol has just worked better for me. I guess if I played in more control metas, I would like Totem better. But for me atleast, my threats desperately need to be able to block weenies. Sure you can sac lands to Totem, but that usually means you won't be able to make him a creature again for a while either.

[Aggro_zombies]

Swords, Needle, and Disenchant hit Totem too you know. Idol has just worked better for me. I guess if I played in more control metas, I would like Totem better. But for me atleast, my threats desperately need to be able to block weenies. Sure you can sac lands to Totem, but that usually means you won't be able to make him a creature again for a while either.
Factory can do that just fine. Remember that you can declare it as a blocker, then tap it to pump itself. Voila, you're blocking with a 3/3 Factory.

EDIT: As for the ten aggro cards bit, I'd be inclined to think that's overkill, but not by much (and you know what they say about overkill - there's no kill like overkill! Har har har har...). I run nine in my deck - 3 Totems, 3 Factories, and 3 Spirits (I went back to Spirits in the build I posted previously). Keep in mind that you run both Pox and Smallpox, and that it's entirely possible, albeit not terribly bright, to win through those two and a single swing of a Facotry alone. The point with your aggro cards is that you want them to do a few things for you: 1) not die to your own Poxes/Smallpoxes, and 2) kill your opponent in a reasonable amount of time post-Pox. I understand the attraction of adding more, but more is not necessarily better. Running over nine smashers generally means you start eating into your board control cards, which you don't want to do, and if you have to run more than nine men to win, well...no offense, but you probably need to practice more with the deck in an aggressive style. That's another reason Totem is better than Idol, by the way - Totem is far and away the more aggressive of the two cards, with both an evasion of sorts AND a bigger body.

[Clark Kant]

I never said that Factory was bad. That's why I'm running 2.

And I don't understand why you conclude I'm running too many threats. I'm advocating 8 - 2/3 Idol, 3 Spirit, 2/3 Factory

"Keep in mind that you run both Pox and Smallpox, and that it's entirely possible, albeit not terribly bright, to win through those two and a single swing of a Facotry alone."

That actually proves why I think Totem is worse than Idol on many levels. Idol can actually block thus keeping the low life count you have playing this deck as not as vulnerable to an opponents weenie, it doesn't need mana to attack which means you can cast your disruption, your poxes, and attack the same turn, often enough of a blow to finish them off. And it also illustrates why 3 damage a turn is often enough for this deck to win.

But yeah, they're reasons to go with either. I already explained why I run what I do and I'm just going to leave this argument alone.

[Aggro_zombies]

I never said that Factory was bad. That's why I'm running 2.

And I don't understand why you conclude I'm running too many threats. I'm advocating 8 - 2/3 Idol, 3 Spirit, 2/3 Factory

"Keep in mind that you run both Pox and Smallpox, and that it's entirely possible, albeit not terribly bright, to win through those two and a single swing of a Facotry alone."

That actually proves why I think Totem is worse than Idol on many levels. Idol can actually block thus keeping the low life count you have playing this deck as not as vulnerable to an opponents weenie, it doesn't need mana to attack which means you can cast your disruption, your poxes, and attack the same turn, often enough of a blow to finish them off. And it also illustrates why 3 damage a turn is often enough for this deck to win.

But yeah, they're reasons to go with either. I already explained why I run what I do and I'm just going to leave this argument alone.
Sounds good to me. Post results as they come in for you, it would be valuable for the thread. As for me, depending on how much studying I get tonight, I may or may not go to a local Legacy tournament tomorrow wielding an updated version of my list (not gonna post it because of all the lurkers on here that'll also go to that tournament...no cheatz 4 u, biatches! ^___^). I f I do end up going, I'll post results here sometimes soon, although you shouldn't expect much from me before Tuesday, since 3 of my 4 finals are on Tuesday and I'm swamped right now. Har har har...swamped...in a deck about MBC...okay, never mind, lame joke.

[Eatatjoes]

say you play pox, and your opponent has 2 creatures in play, how many do they have to sacrifice if any, same question for lands and cards to, thanks

[Aggro_zombies]

say you play pox, and your opponent has 2 creatures in play, how many do they have to sacrifice if any, same question for lands and cards to, thanks
You round up for everything, just like the card says. So, if they have 2 men, 1/3 of two is 2/3 or one. If they have four cards in hand, one third is 4/3 or 1 and 1/3, which rounds up to two.

[Eatatjoes]

thanks for clearing that up, im no good at math, haha, so what happens if they have 1 creature, one land, and 1 card in hand?

[edgewalker]

Everything goes. You round up so 1 rounds up to 3

[Eatatjoes]

Everything goes. You round up so 1 rounds up to 3

i thought thats how it worked, thanks

[Sea R Hill]

Here is my current list, in an aggro metagame:

MD : 4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Cabal Pit
9 Swamp

3 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Dark ritual
3 Nether Spirit
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed scroll
2 Chimeric Idol
3 Powder Keg
2 Sensei’s divining top


SB : 2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Zuran Orb
4 Leyline of the void
3 Infest


I do hesitate on Cursed scroll, because I don't have enough mana if i have no crucible on my board, and because i have other spells to play. Do you have any suggestions?

[Aggro_zombies]

Here is my current list, in an aggro metagame:

MD : 4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Cabal Pit
9 Swamp

3 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Dark ritual
3 Nether Spirit
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed scroll
2 Chimeric Idol
3 Powder Keg
2 Sensei’s divining top


SB : 2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Zuran Orb
4 Leyline of the void
3 Infest


I do hesitate on Cursed scroll, because I don't have enough mana if i have no crucible on my board, and because i have other spells to play. Do you have any suggestions?
First, I think you have too many colorless mana sources and too few colored ones. Your best replacement for Scrolls then might be Phyrexian Totem because it adds black mana. I'd also drop a few Factories for more Swamps. I'm also not too keen on Duress maindeck in aggro metagames unless you face a lot of the X-stompy varients, in which case it can rip equips and other problem cards. I'd rather run Funeral Charm or Innocent Blood in that slot for extra removal.

[Sea R Hill]

For the color problem I usually fix this with extra dark rituals. I don't know if cutting a land as strong as Mishra's factory is a good idea. When I don't need it, I sacrifice it to Pox and keep my swamps.
I think that running both Chimeric Idol AND Phyrexian totem is too much.
I should perhaps run Cabal Therapy instead of duress. It is harder to play but stronger, especially with Nether Spirit.

[erdjinn]

3 Pox
Why only 3 Pox?
When I play the deck I wish I draw Pox so often I would play 5 if possible.

[Bane of the Living]

Agreed, If your meta is aggro heavy you want 4 Pox and 3 Small Pox. Small Pox is only good against aggro post pox. Otherwise you cut too many resources off yourself on turn 2 or so while the aggro opponent just replaces the one dead guy. At least big pox takes a huge shave off your opponents life total, making it easier for you to come back mid game and kill them before they assemble a second army.

[Bane of the Living]

Agreed, If your meta is aggro heavy you want 4 Pox and 3 Small Pox. Small Pox is only good against aggro post pox. Otherwise you cut too many resources off yourself on turn 2 or so while the aggro opponent just replaces the one dead guy. At least big pox takes a huge shave off your opponents life total, making it easier for you to come back mid game and kill them before they assemble a second army.

[Clark Kant]

I've recently started testing a build that runs 3 factories and 3 crucibles and cuts idol's for totems to address the comments that suggested that totem is better than idol...

It's also performing fairly strong and I'm not sure if it indeed is worse than the first iteration of this deck in the opening post. Any comments on this either way. Figuring it out and answering the below questions I think is the final step in completing this deck and getting it moved to the open forum.

The cheif questions as I see them are...

Duress vs. Funeral Charm - I think this is just a meta call.

How many Crucible of Worlds? I've ran none in my build for a while in between, before I threw the Factories back in. And as you can see, now I'm trying three, as the card is quite good.

Mishra's Factories or Swamps. I think 2 Factories is an autoinclude if you're running any crucibles, and they're solid all around, but only if you make absolutely certain that you don't fall below 18 swamp. Otherwise, you're just asking to mana screw yourself.

Chimeric Idol vs. Phyrexian Totem - This HAS got to be the toughest call to make. I really like Idol's ability to block, and it's ability to become a creature even when you just have 2 lands in play. But some players here who's opinion I value seem quite certain that Totem is the way to go. Idol is almost certainly the way to go if you're not running any Factories or Crucibles, but if you are, then I think Totem may be the better choice.

The problem is, I've tested all of these variations, and there was never a clearcut answer for any of them. And I keep getting tempted to run 4 Nether Spirits, just because of the massive tempo boost you get from discarding it to smallpox, just to get it into play the next turn.

Okay, here is what I settled on taking for an upcoming tourney. It's a mix between the deck in the opening post which has served me well for months, and what I've been testing recently. Any last minute suggestions will be appreciated.

18 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
4 Smallpox

4 Innocent Blood
3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard: (Unfortunately, I recently sold off a lot of my excess cards, including most of my sideboard cards at the moment. Here's roughly what I have to work with, but I can get any cards (Cabal Therapy?) if you think they're very important.)
4 Funeral Charm
4 Infest
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spinning Darkness
1 Smother - Didn't want to run too many Spinning Darkness.
1 Crucible of Worlds - Great versus deadguy, the mirror etc.
1 Pithing Needle - One is all I have.

So any suggestions for this build? One problem with the sideboard is that, against burn... Innocent Blood, Pox and Wasteland should all get the boot, but the only thing I have to bring in is Duress and possibly Spinning Darkness.

And just to throw one last wrench into the mix. I've run across a very different deck that runs Dimir Machinations, Nether Spirit and Contamination. Seeing as how this deck already runs 3 Nether Spirits, plus also features the Crucible + Factory combo, plus the ability of Machinations to deprive your opponents of topdecking lands, I think throwing these cards into the mix is a rock solid plan. I'll atleast be running 3 in the sideboard.

[clavio]

Why doesn't anyone play the rack?

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
18 [OD] Swamp (3)

// Creatures
3 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
4 [7E] Duress
4 [IA] Pox
4 [ON] Infest
4 [PY] Chimeric Idol
3 [TE] Cursed Scroll
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [TS] Smallpox
3 [R] The Rack
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [U] Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 4 [US] Oppression
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [UD] Phyrexian Negator

The four mainboard infests have been awesome. Dark ritual sucks after turn 4ish, so I nixed it. I dropped edicts for smallpox.

Crucible is really bad in pox. This is why I am running Chimeric Idol instead of factory.

[Clark Kant]

I really really hate playing cursed scroll with a passion. Honestly as a win condition, it feels slower than molasses. It sucks in 3 mana each activation, and to do what, to occasionally deal 2 damage to a target.

As for the rack, I just prefer to have my win conditions to be a tad bit versatile. Meaning, I like that I can block with my Chimeric Idol and Nether Spirit, and that you don't have to empty your opponents hand to start doing damage.

I don't think it's that good but you can run it if you really really want, but if you do, you need more discard. I would run Funeral Charm in place of Infest (Infest is more of a sideboard card to bring in versus Goblins). And I would play a full set of Sinkholes. There is absolutely no reason not to.

[jebus]

@ Clavio:
Having just 22 lands, with no Ritual / Crucible / Totem, seems troublesome, especially with 8 Pox effects and 4 self-saccing lands [Wasteland]. Reacing 3 mana post-Pox may be too hard, making Infest and Idol potentially difficult to cast. Activating Scroll could be a pain too, especially since you have to leave your mana open to activate it, meaning you can't cast what you draw, making you accumulate cards in your hand and making Scroll all the more dubious.

You could run lower cc cards to get around this, or run more lands. Or both.

-4 Infest
+4 Funeral Charm
is probably the first step here. It's still removal, and it gives you more discard to help the Rack as well. Maybe also

-2 Innocent Blood
-1 Scroll
+2 land (Swamp?)
+1 Sinkhole

The last 2 Scrolls, they could be Crucibles or Totems, or they could remain as Scrolls. You could also mix around the number of Idol / Rack / Scroll.

Also, taking something from the underplayed cards thread in the Open Forum, has anyone tested Lose Hope? It's removal and it fixes draws in a deck that HAS to topdeck well.

[Clark Kant]

Good post, I agree with you on all counts.

This is unrelated to anything talked about thus far but... game after game after game, I find that single most consistent means that this deck wins is through it's land destruction.

As players tend to mulligan land flooded hands, virtually any game where I see a steady stream of land destruction elements such as sinkhole, smallpox, pox, wasteland, I win.

This makes me wish that there was more land destruction card I could play in this deck in place of either Innocent Blood, Duress, or Funeral Charm.

Thinking about it, I recall the two budget options I used before I was able to get my hands on Sinkholes... Blight, Rancid Earth or a white splash for Vindicate.

Here is what each does...

Blight BB, Card type: Enchant Land

Card text: When enchanted land is tapped, destroy it.

Rancid Earth 1BB, Card type: Sorcery

Card text: Destroy target land.
Threshold - Instead destroy that land and Rancid Earth deals 1 damage to each creature and each player.
(You have threshold if seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)

I particularly like Blight, mainly because eventhough your opponent gets one last bit of mana from the land, the casting cost works far better considering all the self destruction that your own lands undergo. The one problem with it is if your opponents leave the Blighted land around anticipating that you will topdeck a Pox or Smallpox.

Rancid Earth is nice because it has a mini Infest packed in with the land destruction.

Vindicate is of course the ideal solution and is very versatile, but requires a splash.

The question is, does Blight or Vindicate have potential in this deck, just as a way to keep the land destruction coming and really screw your opponents over? I think it might.

[jebus]

Vindicate is obviously the best card of the bunch, but adding a white splash changes the deck's entire dynamic. You'd be wary of saccing your W mana sources, so you leave them on the board, where they could get wasted. You'd need to run fetches, which deplete your life and lead you to be more careful about Pox-ing. Before you know it, you've cut Pox for Braids... and Bw Braids already has its own thread.

Blight is nice and speedy, but allowing one more use of the land could be a difference maker tempo-wise. Rancid Earth's 3cc is difficult to justify in this deck, where 3cc usually means a gamebreaker spell [Crucible, Pox, beaters]. The life loss could add up as well.

I think Blight is worth testing as a 4-of, in the Innocent Blood / Funeral Charm slot, while Rancid Earth could be a 2-of, just to round the deck out, or be part of a 3/3 split with Smallpox.

[Androstanolone]

Powder Keg

Seriously, the deck's fundamental flaw is artifacts. Artifact mana, Aether vial, pithing needle, etc. Keg hits all those while also being an extra removal against aggro. It adds consistency and shores up an obvious flaw, it just makes sense in the archetype especially with turn 1 vial being one of the most popular plays in the format. Smallpox also just makes perfect sense in the deck. If you're going to run cards that break the symmetry of Pox, those same cards break the symmetry of Smallpox. It also acts as the extra LD, discard, and creature removal to reach a "critical mass" of all three effects. Who needs dark ritual when your deck's full of cheap, efficient, sometimes brutal disruption that won't always cost you a card and won't be dead on its own? I know it sounds like heresy, cutting dark ritual, but play without it. Put powder keg in its place.

[Sea R Hill]

Why only 3 Pox?
When I play the deck I wish I draw Pox so often I would play 5 if possible.


Pox is terrible against aggro, because it takes your life total down from 1/3. It is often harder to win after a Pox against aggro than before. In some versions, Pox isn't even played.

Against Goblins, I side them out for Infests, because Goblin is too much explosive. Pox only removes the weakest creatures, and helps the opponent to attack your life total. Pox is only good against control, and you already have cards against control. So 3 is a maximum.

Powder Keg is awesome, I run 3 MD. It is very effective for getting rid of Vial, Needle, 1 and 2 drops. Basically all aggro decks.

[Androstanolone]

I play 4 pox. My build is:

Instants:
4x funeral charm

Sorceries:
4x pox
4x smallpox
4x hymn
4x sinkhole
4x duress

Creatures:
4x nether spirit

Artifacts:
4x powder keg
4x chimeric idol

Lands:
20x swamp
4x wasteland

It's worked out pretty well. I didn't used to run 4 nether spirits, fearing drawing too many. But it's actually pretty good to run 4. Casting turn 2 smallpox with the spirit in hand is always good. Usually if two do end up in the yard you gained a decent bit of card advantage to get them there. And if your opponent is playing STP the more spirits the better. The 4 spirit/4 idol config is aggressive enough to put on a decent clock and has tons of synergy. They also don't rely on having 3 mana up or my opponent having an empty hand or anything like that. I've liked this build so far.

[jebus]

I was testing for a while a build which is actually very similar to the above one without Dark Ritual, albeit making room for Crucible & Factory, and with Totem over Idol.

18 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Nether Spirit
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
3 Powder Keg
4 Funeral Charm
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

Factory / Crucible / Totem help solidify the deck overall, and Keg covers a lot of the deck's weaknesses.

I'm currently testing Rancid Earth, Blight, and Lose Hope, so I've put the Rituals back in for now. I also have Skeletal Scrying in the deck for now as well. It draws cards, which is good, and the life loss is controllable so you don't have to lose more than necessary. It also eats up late game Rituals and extra Spirits in the yard, which is a bonus.

[Jankwolf]

Hey guys,
I took pox to a local friday night tournament
and took first place with it...
I used the following decklist.

Lands:
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Spells:

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
3 Spinning Darkness
2 Inncocent Blood
3 Powder Keg
2 Phyrixian arena
4 Dark Ritual

Kill:
3 Ninja(nether spirit)
4 Chimeric Idol
2 Phyrixian Totem

Sideboard:
3 E.PLague
2 Infest
3 Perish
2 Virtues Ruin
2 Funeral Charm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Spinning Darkness
1 Powder keg

First round was against 5 color slivers...I dont think i need to explain much further...

Second round Was against zoo...
Game one....
Started off with applying the disrution then poxing followed up by smallpox with chimeric idol P.Totem and Ninja swinging for the win.

Sided in 3 perish 2 virtues ruin 2 infest

Game two I killed off her creatures with the sideboard cards and railed ninja and idol for the win...

Third round was mean girls with a black splash...
Game one was nothing....Normal pox game
I sided in 2 virtues ruin 1 blood 1 keg
Game two
He starts out the game with freakin Leyline!!!
I play some disruption drop a keg and hard cast ninja which promptly gets swords...He plays bob and i blow up keg in the same turn. He doesnt see anymore creatures for the rest of the game while chimeric idol owns him.

Round 4
I play against discard
I empty my hand game one and he drops rack...nuff said

I sided out spinning darkness for infest and one keg...
Game 2 I play a normal pox game and win
Same for game three

Sorry for lack of info on the fourth round i dont really remember to much of it.
Just though I'd share my success with it.
Feel free to critisize me!

[clavio]

I like your list, but I think virtue's ruin is unnecessary.

Arena is an interesting choice.

[Blair Phoenix]

This is the current decklist of Pox I've been running

Lands:
20 swamp
4 Wasteland

Creatures:
3 Nether Spirit

Other:
4 Pox
4 Small Pox
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
3 Chimeric Idol
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 The Rack

Just to point out this whole thread on Pox just seem to be deck theory. Can't we at least get some rudimentary matchup data up?

At any rate, I don't use Crucible as I don't think it's really all that needed in the deck, therefore I don't run Mox Diamond. That and the fact that I run Chimeric Idol has made me dropped Mishra's Factory out of the deck as well. I personally like the Rack as even if its not dealing damage, you basically make your opponent play around it. I picked Totem over Cursed Scroll, as it also fits utility by making mana, and it is a 5/5 beater if need be. My meta is control mostly which further makes me like it. Sometimes I have trouble getting black mana so I upped the swamps to 20. I cut Dark Ritual, as it becomes useless later game, and early game, while you can certainly get broken first or second turns, I went for consistencey over explosiveness which in my opinion is always the way to go.

[Jankwolf]

I can do some testing and see if i can get some numbers down for you guys.
I can get the match up data for goblins, threshhold, landstill but i'm not too sure about the solidarity matchup.

Which list should be used for testing???

[Aggro_zombies]

I can do some testing and see if i can get some numbers down for you guys.
I can get the match up data for goblins, threshhold, landstill but i'm not too sure about the solidarity matchup.

Which list should be used for testing???
They're all basically the same, with the most varience being in what's used to win. Bane's build is almost exactly the same as mine, so I'd recommend using either his or mine as we've both played the deck quite a bit and arrived at almost identical lists independently.

I can give some matchup analysis from tournaments where I've played against competent opponents. I don't have exact numbers as I seem to have lost the few notes that I took, but here are general impressions.

Goblins: You lose if they drop Aether Vial early. Not only does it circumvent your LD, virtually all of your removal is sorcery-speed, allowing them to pull off all sorts of EOT shenanigans. I board Powder Kegs expressly for this purpose. You have a good chance without Vial as long as you play aggressively and don't get randomly mana-flooded/screwed like I seem to do quite often. Your sweeper (Infest) should be saved until the situation becomes dire, as you usually have more than adequate targeted and semi-sweeper removal to deal with their creatures (if they play them at a reasonable rate).

Any Stompy Varient: <3 these decks. You run more removal main than they have men. Post-board, I brought in Sudden Deaths in place of Infests so I could own more, although I've since dropped them from the board. Basically, they won't have more than one or two men on the table at a time, so you run 10 Innocent Bloods at least - Pox, Smallpox, and of course, the Blood of Innocence itself. I also bring in Duress and Keg vs. Faerie Stompy to combat Chalice of the Void and counters.

Solidarity: This depends on your draws, really. If you get a discard and/or LD heavy opening hand, you are good to go. Otherwise, mulligan. The goal is to destroy as much of their hand and mana base as possible as quickly as possible. Think balls-to-the-wall suicidal destruction, first turn Smallpox, that sort of thing. The less hand or lands they have, the happier you are. Even if they do try to go off, if you've done a good enough job with your disruption, they should fizzle unless they draw Teh Nutz. Also, Oppression is golden here. They MUST bounce it before they go off or they will lose.

Thresh: No one plays this deck around here except me, as I've recently acquired all the cards for it (but I'm playing Miracle Grow instead because I like nitrates). I haven't met too many players who play this well on MWS, but I will say that Leyline of the Void is pure ownage - it's uncounterable, their guys suck pre-thresh, and they have virtually no way to remove it once you drop it before the game starts. Leyline = GG n00bz.

Iggy Pop: Leyline rocks hardcore here, but the important thing is knowing what to rip with your targeted discard. Tutors of any stripe are high-priority, as are IGGs themselves. LD doesn't matter so much here because they can go off with just their artifact mana sources. Chalice might help but I don't use it.

Salvagers Game: someone around here always plays this at a tournament and I always demolish it. Sudden Death was an all-star here, and Leyline is awesome too, as it buys you A LOT of time. Even though vitually no one I know plays this deck, I still include it because the matchup is so one-sided.

Loam-based decks: Your LD is worthless, but it's fun to watch them waste a Loam target on getting back lands you nuked. Post-board, Leyline of the Void once again goes to work for you, and you should probably bring in more discard. If you don't open a hand with Leyline, mulligan. This is not optional.

Hope that helps. Wish I could remember some numbers for you but I've put this deck aside for the time being to mess with Gro. If you want to test with me over MWS, once I figure out how to re-update the damn Online Play thing, drop me a PM and we can play.

[Clark Kant]

Jankwolf, I still recommend the original build posted...

20 Swamp/18 Swamp, 2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress/Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
4 Smallpox

4 Innocent Blood
3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Phyrexian Totem/2 Crucible of Worlds

But I suppose an additional crucible and four fetchlands wouldn't be too bad either. And running Totem over Idol in a build running Factories might be warranted. I would however NOT cut Smallpox or Nether Spirit. Both are very powerful and synergic with the deck.

I've played the deck since Smallpox was spoiled and wish I had kept a record of the matchups I've faced. The goblins and thresh matchup seem about even thanks to a large amount of sideboard aggro hate. Goblins is probably better for them thanks to Vial. But a sideboard with a lot of aggro hate can compensate a good bit. Most other aggro is favorable and combo is favorable in builds running maindeck Duress.

Aggro Zombie's anaylisis is on the mark, except that of the Stompys, Fairie Stompy is the one matchup that I can definitively say is not favorable. All their creatures fly making Funeral Charm and your blockers useless and all of them are out of Infest range. And they're high cc making Powder Keg too slow as well. Chrome Mox is a huge boon for them as they can easily play a 2 mana land and cast whatever they need to even if you have a very good mana disruption hand. But I can't offer up specific numbers or percentages.

As tempting as playing 3-4 man lands is, I've repeatedly found myself in situation where I was stuck with colorless sources rather than colored ones leaving me unable to Pox or Smallpox when needed.

The alternations are all heavily meta dependent. In many metas, aggro is very predominant and there, you run Funeral Charm and Innocent Blood, and could even opt to run 2 maindeck Infests. But Duress is a must have against control and combo. When running Duress, either Innocent Blood or Funeral Charm must be cut. Innocent Blood is better than Funeral Charm against Threshold, Reanimator, and generally any decks playing evaders or fat thats out of Infest range.

The only sideboard card that is automatic four of is Infest. Leyline and Powder Keg are also extremely good.

[Aggro_zombies]

Aggro Zombie's anaylisis is on the mark, except that of the Stompys, Fairie Stompy is the one matchup that I can definitively say is not favorable. All their creatures fly making Funeral Charm and your blockers useless and all of them are out of Infest range. And they're high cc making Powder Keg too slow as well. Chrome Mox is a huge boon for them as they can easily play a 2 mana land and cast whatever they need to even if you have a very good mana disruption hand. But I can't offer up specific numbers or percentages.
Yes, Faerie Stompy can be unpleasant for you, but this is the matchup where Sudden Death is the best card you could wish for. Not only does it kill their men dead, it kills their men dead while they have Force of Will in hand. Duress is also helpful here as it can rip counters. Keep in mind that the biggest threat from FS is not the dudes but the counterspells. Dudes can be handled with Innocent Blood (better by far in a meta where Goblins isn't the majority deck - and I mean majority, as in >50%), Smallpox, and Ritual/Sudden Death, all of which are early game cards that should keep you from hemoraging life even if they push a turn one Sea Drake. The problem is that, once they know what you're playing, the FS player typically won't field men without some way to defend them, so if you see a turn one guy that means they almost certainly have counters in hand. Try baiting counters with discard spells and then follow that with your removal. If they don't counter your discard, they either don't have a counter or want you to make them discard it for some reason.

Infest is also generally subpar against the Stompy decks as it doesn't kill things that are equiped with SoFI and you usually don't get better than a 2-for-1 out of it, in which case I'd rather just use Innocent Blood or something like that. Of all the Stompy decks, Angel Stompy is probably the only deck where you don't want to side out all or most of your Infests because killing a Mom after she recovers from summoning sickness is golden. Not that it's usually a problem, just sayin'.

If you have more Stompy decks in your meta than Goblins, I would say it might be worthwhile to test Sudden Death main instead of Infests and maybe work some Diabolic Edicts or Smothers in there. The instant-speed capabilites these bring to your deck give you the opportunity to respond to equips by nuking the equipment target, as you generally can't get rid of the equipment itself. Once they have it sitting in play, they can play a creature and equip it the same turn, effectively making it immune to Infest. That's why Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood style removal cards are so much better here than against Goblins.

Also, Jankwolf: I got your PM but I won't be on much for the next few days because I'm doing work on my fraternity house over the break. MWS is free + the cost of your internet connection, though, and I can send you the software for it over MSN when I get the chance.

[Clark Kant]

Yep, you have Innocent Blood, Smallpox and Pox (and a prayer that they don't have something like Cloud of Fairies or Looter il-Kor to sac instead of fat). And they have Misdirection post board which really absolutely screws you over.

I never tried running Sudden Death in the sideboard. It seems mana intensive. But I can see that it is a massive boon against Fairie Stompy, so I'll try running a couple. I could see the matchup being fairly good if I made sure all the removal I had was actually relevent against the deck. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Bane of the Living]

I love Sudden Death but Im not sure I love it enough for the maindeck. Its a house against Thresh, Tog, and Madness as well so if those are in your meta consider it a 2 of in your board at least. I also have blue splash AS and FS in my meta so I play 4 in my boards.

Keeping needle in your board is really important against gobs.

Heres my current sb.

3 Oppression
4 Sudden Death
4 Leyline
2 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg

Im really liking keg so I think I might work it into the maindeck. I just dont want to add too many cards that are bad against combo.

[Illissius]

As tempting as playing 3-4 man lands is, I've repeatedly found myself in situation where I was stuck with colorless sources rather than colored ones leaving me unable to Pox or Smallpox when needed.


This is why my build makes the choices it does. Play Wastelands and Factories because they're good cards, Mox Diamonds because they don't produce colored mana, and Crucible to make all of this workable.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is why my build makes the choices it does. Play Wastelands and Factories because they're good cards, Mox Diamonds because they don't produce colored mana, and Crucible to make all of this workable.
Diamonds aren't entirely needed here. If you're also using Phyrexian Totem in any significant quantities, it makes up for only having one Swamp in play. I've found that many times keeping a hand with one Swamp, one Ritual, one Totem, and one [colorless land] with some other stuff is the correct play. Swamp, Ritual out Totem, follow with your [colorless land] the next turn, and now you have 1BB, which allows you to cast every card in your deck but Pox (and there's no real advantage to playing that in the early game unless your opponent has some mind-bendingly explosive board development).

One new card up on Magicthegathering.com today is Damnation, a timeshifted (read: color shifted) Wrath of God. Same stats: 2BB, sorcery, nuke all dudes in a fashion not conducive to their regeneration. Does it have a place in this deck? Is it even needed? I'm inclined to say no to the second one, but let's get some opinions on this.

[Sea R Hill]

The problem of Damnation is that it cost 4 mana.

For the ones that were interested on playtesting datas, I have some qualitative feedback on my recent tests against ******** and Goblins.

Here is the list I played:
MD : 4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
1 Cabal Pit
10 Swamp

3 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Dark ritual
3 Nether Spirit
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem
3 Powder Keg
2 Sensei’s divining top


SB : 2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
3 Zuran Orb
4 Leyline of the void
4 Infest

Against ********, you have a very favorable MU. As they don't have a lot of creatures, it is easy to get rid of them. Powder Keg is awesome because of the low costs of their creatures (1 and 2 except for dragon & enforcer), Factories trade well with mongooses, and land destruction is too strong against this deck.

Against Goblins, it is an other story. I think the MU is unwinnable. On 10 matches, I won... ZERO. Post board I enter in 4 Infest, 2 Contamination and 1 Needle and get rid of these useless Duress and BigPox. But Goblins are way too much explosive. One time, I began the 2nd match with 2 Infests in starting hand. I drew a third Infest, and even after 3 Infest I lost. In 1-2 turn they can recover for a wrath effect, it is fearsome.

I tested against some other controls decks, like landstill and loam, and won.
I think Pox is a very strong deck in a control meta, but Goblins makes it bad. We just have to wait the next DCI annoucement after GP Colombus when they'll ban that damned aether vial and that f***ing ringleader.

[Tacosnape]

If you want to beat Goblins with Pox, you'd best be running Engineered Plague, Infest, some combination of Darkblast/Innocent Blood/Lose Hope, A way to deal with Aether Vial (Pithing Needle, Powder Keg, or EE), and a kill condition that doesn't take 30 years to kill your opponent. Also, instant-speed kill such as Contagion helps against Goblins, as it doesn't tie up your mana and provides an alternative to all of your sorcery-speed boardsweepers. It isn't unwinnable, as Goblins is very susceptible to its land getting destroyed if it doesn't get a Vial out (Or connect with a Lackey).

Don't count on any part of Goblins getting banned. Goblins is the glue that holds the format together and keeps decks ridiculously overstacked with Counterspells, Discard, and Stax-ish effects from taking over. It's also the inexpensive deck that allows players who are new to the format to feel like they can come in and compete. Vial won't get banned, either, as Vial doesn't even turn effective until a couple turns after the top combo decks kill, and Wizards shouldn't view this as format distorting.

[EDIT:] Besides, it's ridiculous to call for the banning of one of the Big Three when you absolutely slaughter another of the Big Three (Threshold) and have a pretty good setup against the third one (Solidarity)

[Clark Kant]

Sea R, I haven't found the goblins matchup nearly as bleak. It's by no means favorable, but it's around 40% for me overall (yes, the matchup is indeed bleak preboard) but actually seems to be positive postboard :eek: .

I think the reason for this is the build that you are running. It's far more geared towards control.

Here's a list of cards that I don't and would never ever recommend running maindeck as they're just too damn slow, and/or inflict too much self damage...
2 Cursed scroll
3 Powder Keg
2 Sensei’s divining top
1 Cabal Pit
4 Bloodstained Mire

I can't stress enough how slow Cursed Scroll is in this deck.

And here's a list of cards that I wouldn't run so many copies of.
4 duress
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Phyrexian Totem
3 Mishra's Factory

I always run either Crucible or Totem, just bc they serve a similar role in the mana department, and I dislike Totem due to it's activation cost requirement, and it's inability to block. Chimeric Idol's ability to let me play my disruption while continuing the beats has served me better than Factory too many times to count.

And what do I do with all the slots that opened up. I typically opt for 4 Innocent Blood, 2 Infest, 2 Funeral Charm and usually only run 3 Duress MD at most.

Add in the other 2 Infests and 2 Funeral Charm in the sideboard as well as Engineered Plagues, and the Goblins matchup doesn't look anywhere near as bad.

When I beat goblins, I'm always very close to death myself. Just the act of adding fetchlands and Cabal Pits I fear would turn this to my disadvantage. Throw in all the slow control cards you play MD in place of cards like 2 Infest, 4 Innocent Blood and Funeral Charm and I'm not surprised the matchup looks so bleak to you.

P.S. I do think Goblins is overpowered in relation to the rest of the format, and is having an unhealthy effect on the format by holding back so many otherwise good aggro and control decks. Combo is held back a lot more by control than it is by goblins. And the control in the format isn't powerful enough to be favorable well built aggro decks, not just goblins, so I don't think hurting goblins a peg would cause control to dominate. Black fortunately has more tools to beat goblins than any other color.

[Aggro_zombies]

Tomb of Yawgmoth
Legendary Land
All lands are swamps in addition to their other types.

So imagine...

Mishra's Marshy Factory
Land - Swamp
Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool.
Tap: Add B to your mana pool.
Tap: Target Assembly-Worker blah blah blah you know what this does.

Same goes for Wasteland. No more color-screw, and you can pitch extras to Pox or Smallpox. So, yay or nay on this guy? And how many should be run?

[Clark Kant]

Tomb of Yawgmoth sounds like a brilliant idea for this deck. It certainly makes the Crucible + Factory plan stronger. I would test 2x.

[Aggro_zombies]

I want to get some feelings from the rest of you about the Goblins matchup, overall strengths and weaknesses of this deck, and most importantly, what you feel needs to be done to make this deck truly viable. Currently, what I seem to be hearing / experiencing is a really, really poor Goblins matchup despite massive amounts of hate. The culprit seems to be the lack of a black Stifle, or in other words, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, and Aether Vial among others. Take those out of the picture and Goblins grinds to a halt in the face of your hate. Unfortunately, a splash is definitely not warranted in this deck, and there's probably some way in black of dealing with these cards. In any event, I think the deck needs to be evaluated from an entirely different perspective from the one it is usually viewed in - in other words, I don't think any additional improvements can be made to the current decklist without either a) dismantling it and then putting it back together from the beginning, or b) waiting for a new set to come out with some sort of miracle card in it.

I'm currently working on a new decklist that attempts to solve some of the weakness I perceive in the deck, but I'll need some help testing it as there are no tournaments around here in the near future and I don't want to rely on luck of the draw on MWS for opponents. I'll post it once I get feedback from everyone.

[Clark Kant]

I would need to know more about your build. Specifically, what creature hate are you running maindeck and in the sideboard. If you really have trouble with goblins so much, did you try running 4 Innocent Blood, 4 Funeral Charm, 2 Infest md. If you want a new direction, you could always try a transformational sideboard to suiesque cards like war beast, rotting giant etc. red death seems to have a solid goblins matchup.

I've been toying with such a sideboard for fun for a bit. It's pretty effective in certain situations.

[Blair Phoenix]

I want to get some feelings from the rest of you about the Goblins matchup, overall strengths and weaknesses of this deck, and most importantly, what you feel needs to be done to make this deck truly viable. Currently, what I seem to be hearing / experiencing is a really, really poor Goblins matchup despite massive amounts of hate. The culprit seems to be the lack of a black Stifle, or in other words, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, and Aether Vial among others. Take those out of the picture and Goblins grinds to a halt in the face of your hate. Unfortunately, a splash is definitely not warranted in this deck, and there's probably some way in black of dealing with these cards. In any event, I think the deck needs to be evaluated from an entirely different perspective from the one it is usually viewed in - in other words, I don't think any additional improvements can be made to the current decklist without either a) dismantling it and then putting it back together from the beginning, or b) waiting for a new set to come out with some sort of miracle card in it.

I'm currently working on a new decklist that attempts to solve some of the weakness I perceive in the deck, but I'll need some help testing it as there are no tournaments around here in the near future and I don't want to rely on luck of the draw on MWS for opponents. I'll post it once I get feedback from everyone.
The problem with Goblins is the deck is just so fast and can get around all your hate(Vial for Land D, and Ringleader against hand and creature d). Another problem is that Goblins just trump all of this deck's win conditions. Factories are wasted/ported easily if not just blocked, You almost never want to swing with Totem against goblins, The Rack is easily handled with a resolved Ringleader, scroll is slower than molasses, and Idol can be chump blocked to oblivion being your only other viable choice.

[Cait_Sith]

Is this just theory? Remeber that Pox hates large slices of the board, not just bits and pieces.

[Blair Phoenix]

Is this just theory? Remeber that Pox hates large slices of the board, not just bits and pieces.

I've played the matchup a few times with resolved Pox and goblins just so easily come back from it as long as they had a decent hand (Aether Vial or Lacky first turn). From then on, all they have to do is either Vial in, or lacky out a Ringleader, and the Pox you just played basically becomes moot, as they refill their hand AND get access to more creatures. Ringleader + Lackey/Vial in short is what makes Goblins such an effective deck against Pox

A question to those that have played the Goblin matchup postboard, Did Goblins side in against you as well? I had a Gobin matchup where they sided in Pyrostatic Pillars against me, and the results, to say the least, weren't very pretty at all. Everything we play costs 3 or less mana, and Goblins can get around at least some of the damage via lackey/vial.

As to improving the Goblin matchup, has anyone tried taking the Pikula route and adding in mainboard E Plagues?

[Sea R Hill]

I think the reason for this is the build that you are running. It's far more geared towards control.

Here's a list of cards that I don't and would never ever recommend running maindeck as they're just too damn slow, and/or inflict too much self damage...
2 Cursed scroll
3 Powder Keg
2 Sensei’s divining top
1 Cabal Pit
4 Bloodstained Mire

I can't stress enough how slow Cursed Scroll is in this deck.


I love the top in this deck. You have no draw spells, and you fast enter in a top-deck mode. This is a great way to control your drawing. And the synergy with fetches is really good.

For Cabal Pit, I usually don't lose more than 1 life with it, and it is awesome with crucible. You can geat rid of the biggest creatures with the crucible-pit trick (targeting the creature with the cabal pit 2 times in one turn).

Powder Keg is just the control element that lacks to this deck. Artifacts are heavily played in legacy, and this is the only way to get rid of them. A pithing needle can be devastating. It also help getting rid of multiple permanents with one card, and you know card advantage is not the strength of Pox Decks. It is also great for getting rid of ******** low cost creatures, especially that untargetable mongoose and the mana-producing bear.

I agree with you on Cursed scroll. I am often unhappy to have it in the early game, and when you have two of them it is a nightmare. But sometimes it is a really decisive card. I don't know about playing one or zero. What do you think?




And here's a list of cards that I wouldn't run so many copies of.
4 duress
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Phyrexian Totem
3 Mishra's Factory

I always run either Crucible or Totem, just bc they serve a similar role in the mana department, and I dislike Totem due to it's activation cost requirement, and it's inability to block. Chimeric Idol's ability to let me play my disruption while continuing the beats has served me better than Factory too many times to count.


The totem vs chimeric debate is the biggest topic for this deck. What I don't like in Chimeric Idol is that it has a very bad synergy with Mishra's Factory. And I think that when you run Crucible, you have to run Mishra's Factory! If you don't run the Factories you don't have enough threats in the deck.
The biggest problem of Totem is that it can't block. But you have the Factories fot that purpose. Plus the totem provides you mana, which is often decisive because I don't have Crucible all the time on the table (it is often countered, destroyed, or I can just not draw it).

Duress is really weak against aggro. In fact it is really weak against Goblins. But it is really good against combo, control and aggro-control deck. It is very good for getting rid of a counterspell to cast a spell you want too. It is also good for getting rid of that annoying spell in the Sea stompy MU. And Sea Stompy is a really strong deck that is more and more popular because it can beat goblins. It was even more played than Goblins at Worlds.





And what do I do with all the slots that opened up. I typically opt for 4 Innocent Blood, 2 Infest, 2 Funeral Charm and usually only run 3 Duress MD at most.

Add in the other 2 Infests and 2 Funeral Charm in the sideboard as well as Engineered Plagues, and the Goblins matchup doesn't look anywhere near as bad.

When I beat goblins, I'm always very close to death myself. Just the act of adding fetchlands and Cabal Pits I fear would turn this to my disadvantage. Throw in all the slow control cards you play MD in place of cards like 2 Infest, 4 Innocent Blood and Funeral Charm and I'm not surprised the matchup looks so bleak to you.


The problem of improving the Goblins MU is that it weakens your MU vs other decks. And for what? For losing at the end. Goblins is too strong. They always have a vial or a lackey to get around your mana disruption. They have Ringleader for card advantage. They have meaningless goblins to sacrifice to Pox (Matron, SGC tokens, Mogg fanatics). They have Goblin Tinkerer to destroy your Crucible. They have... soo many other things that I don't have enough time to make an exhaustive list...:cry:





P.S. I do think Goblins is overpowered in relation to the rest of the format, and is having an unhealthy effect on the format by holding back so many otherwise good aggro and control decks. Combo is held back a lot more by control than it is by goblins. And the control in the format isn't powerful enough to be favorable well built aggro decks, not just goblins, so I don't think hurting goblins a peg would cause control to dominate. Black fortunately has more tools to beat goblins than any other color.

It is of course unhealthy. All decks have to pack answers to a turn one Lackey. Vial is the uncounterability for an aggro deck... and a tempo boost for a deck that is already too fast. Ringleader is card advantage for a creature deck... wasn't Skullclamp banned for that purpose?:wink:

[Bane of the Living]

It might be worth mentioning at this time. When team Necro ran Pox for GP Philly we maindecked 3 Engineered Plague. In your normal weekly tournaments you may not face the amount of goblin decks in your meta that justify that change. At a large scale tournament like that you can bet we beat every goblin deck we faced. Face it, having 3 Infest in your deck is trash against Solidarity and Threshold anyways.. You might as well put the big crunch on goblins, especially if its prevailent for you.

[Dr Chunk]

Hello,

First post here but I must say I have had a great time rummaging around your forums.

We had our 3rd regular Oxford, UK Legacy tournament yesterday and I took my Pox deck to the mill:

4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Crucible of Worlds
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
2 Mishra's Factory

SB:
4 Infest
3 Lose hope
3 Powder Keg
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Oppression
1 Chains of Mephistofeles

This was a stock Pox list that i had stolen from a SCG list that had won something or other, though it is no longer in their database. I mused over swapping out an innocent blood and a duress for 2x MD Infest but the metagame was somewhat unknown.

S/b Choices:

Infest > Plague - I figured this was much more flexible than the plague as I can use it to eat Stompy type creatures as well as fish. Also gets around s/b disenchant.

Lose hope > Darkblast / Funeral Charm - I couldn't see myself using the charm for discard so it seemed a weak choice. Darkblast does return and dredge spirits into the bin but I asked myself how many x/1 creatures I needed to kill - Lackey, Bob, Shade. I have up to 12 sac creature spells as well as infests after board so the odd creature is not a problem - I just need t1/2 answers to Lackey and bob and these make 7 in the deck (less ritual infest). This deck has no manipulation so Scry won for me outright.

2 Cabal Therapy - Against combo. Works well with Spirits. Works not so well when your opponent has 1-2 cards in hand after poxing (hence not MD).

2 Oppression / 1 Chains - Against the combo decks / control decks. Chains is obviously better in most circumstances but card availability dictates.

3 Powder Keg - Last minute addition over pithing needle / leyline of the void. I was really unsure what to expect. I needed an answer to aether vial as mana denial fails against t1 vial. It ended up bing my MVP against gobbos as I set it to 1 to eat lackeys, vials etc. etc.. Leyline would be better against Landstill, which was an awful match for me (!CRUCIBLE!), and loam decks (though there were none). I was also afraid of Rifter so Keg would deal with Rift and Humility.

In the end rounds were:

1 Win against eggs / helm / SDT
2 Win against goblins
3 Win against BW Confidant
4 Loss against Landstill
5 Draw against IggY into top 8

Quarts - Win against BW confidant
Semis - Win against goblins
Finals - Win against BRW Homebrew

I will be writing a more detailed account for my site (www.mtgtwincast.com) when I get a chance.

Chris

[Aggro_zombies]

~Reservation of post space~

I'm nearly ready to unveil the major overhaul work I've done on my Pox build, but I need to say a few things first. One, I'm going to need some help testing it - there's no Legacy tournaments around here for a while and I don't want to have to rely on MWS, especially not with my shitty internet connection (I cannot even begin to describe to you how annoying it is to disconnect when you're in the middle of winning game 2 or 3). Secondly, you don't sign on to AIM much, do you, bane? I'd like to talk to you when you get the chance, both of my IM contacts can be found to the left. Thirdly, I probably won't post the finished Pox build until the black portion of the Planar Chaos spoileris finished, just so I can see what sort of new goodies the set gives to the deck and whether or not the changes I've made thus far are necessary.

[Clark Kant]

Root of Evil, B
instant
split second
remove target card in a graveyard from the game and all copies in that players yard, library, and hand

So how do we go about squeezing in four copies of this card somewhere.

It's too much of a house not to squeeze. Imagine, combing all our land destruction with this card to remove all of threshold's fetches too.

It shores up this deck's worser matchup, Loam decks and Landstill a little bit. And I expect Damnation will be giving Landstill renewed interest.

It's things like this that make me wish all decks were required to be 80 cards.

[Complete_Jank]

Root of Evil, B
instant
split second
remove target card in a graveyard from the game and all copies in that players yard, library, and hand

So how do we go about squeezing in four copies of this card somewhere.

It's too much of a house not to squeeze. Imagine, combing all our land destruction with this card to remove all of threshold's fetches too.

It shores up this deck's worser matchup, Loam decks and Landstill a little bit. And I expect Damnation will be giving Landstill renewed interest.

It's things like this that make me wish all decks were required to be 80 cards.


Root of Evil will be every decks problem, even decks running it.:confused:

[Aggro_zombies]

Okay, it's time to unveil the first incarnation of my Pox 2.0 deck. But first, I want to cover what prompted me to begin messing with the deck and why the list is going to raise some objections.

What is Pox?

Pox is a black disruption deck similar to, but not exactly, a control deck. Unlike a true control deck, Pox is not capable of controlling the board or shaping and maintaining a favorable board position for long periods of time. Instead, the deck attempts to throw so much disruption at its opponent that that player is kept off balance while the Pox player wins. Pox therefore seeks to be a highly proactive deck, attacking its opponent's hand, lands, and creatures in order to thwart their eventual victory.

What are the benefits of Pox?

Like its cousin Pikula Homebrew, Pox is a very versatile deck that isn't strategy-specific. In other words, unlike a control deck like, say, Psychatog, Pox doesn't stop your opponent's game plan, but rather prevents them from carrying it out in the first place by denying your opponent the basic resources he or she needs to win. However, unlike other resource-denial or prison decks, Pox is built to benefit from symmetrical resource destruction by running cards that are immune to it (Phyrexian Totem) or can be recurred (Nether Spirit). Furthermore, it has a major leg up on Homebrew by being monocolored and therefore less prone to an opponent's mana disruption.

One other thing that bears mentioning is that Pox is a very versatile deck in terms of design. Outside of a few key components (see below), the deck can be tailor-made to wreck a given meta or broadened enough to take into an open field.

What are the problems with Pox?

There are a few big problems with Pox, some of which pertain to the namesake card and some of which are endemic to this type of deck. I'll go over them one by one, backing them up with my observations from playing and testing the deck quite a bit.

1) No card draw or manipulation. The deck is a fearsome beast if it hits all the right draws, but it tends to run out of steam in the mid-to-late game and thereby loses its ability to apply pressure to your opponent. If your opponent can recover, you will lose. Unfortunately, as the deck is monoblack, there are very few options for card drawing that play well with the rest of the deck.

2) Russian Roulette is a dangerous sport. When you play Pox, you're gambling on a few things - one, that you've done a thorough enough job supressing your opponent that he or she can't come back before you kill him or her, and two, that he or she won't draw into some miracle card in the next few turns and either remove your threats or otherwise stop your attack. If that happens, you've made it that much easier for your opponent to win. Casting a Pox is almost always suicidal against Goblins unless you are holding multiple Infests or have several Engineered Plagues in play.

3) The "Three Mana Rule." Every card in the deck costs three mana or less to play, for a number of reasons. First, it allows you to absolutely abuse Dark Ritual. Second, you will also be forced to sacrifice lands to a Pox. Having a low curve allows you to keep going after a Pox without having to wait for additional lands. However, it does limit your options in terms of what cards can be added - remember the old saying: CMC's over three, stay away from me!

Black's Anatomy, or what the insides of a Pox deck look like.

Pox can largely be broken down into a few main chunks: your core disruption suite, your win condition, and metagame tuning.

Core Disruption Suite:
-Sinkhole: kills lands dead, costs two mana, next.
-Hymn to Tourach: no one likes to be on the receiving end of random discard. Hand suppression works wonders, and this card lets you 2-for-1.
-Smallpox: a new addition, but a good one. Good either early game to slow an opponent down, or after a Pox, to get rid of whatever was left standing on the other side of the table.
-Pox: duh. The deck is kinda, you know, named after this card. It would kinda be, you know, important.
-Wasteland: Nonbasics are rampant in this format. This is a fun and exciting way to deal with them.
-Duress: Useful against every deck in the format but Goblins and a handful of others. If you have a lot of Goblins in your meta, this should probably go in the SB, but you MUST run it somewhere.

Win Conditions: (NOTE: this can differ by build and builder preference. I'll list the most common ones here)
Nether Spirit: discard itself to Pox, then comes back for more. Also an infinite chump blocker. If the board is clear, he can go on the offensive for 2 damage a turn.
-Mishra's Factory: it's a land, so you could lose it to Pox, but you should be sacrificing tapped Swamps to Pox, not manlands. It's also difficult for an opponent without Wasteland to get rid of as it is not always a creature and can recur itself via Crucible of Worlds.
-Chimeric Idol: have nothing to do with your mana? Why not just activate this and swing for three? Or use it as a "surprise" blocker when you're tapped out. The 3/3 body makes it fairly durable.
-Phyrexian Totem: it's like Negator, except it doesn't automatically die to your symmetrical removal. It's also a mana source, which can help if you're land-light.
-The Rack: some Pox builds focusing on discard strategies run this. Personally, I think it's too slow and conditional, but that's just me.

Other things / Meta things:
These are cards common to most Pox decks, but they aren't absolutely essential like the previous two categories. Still, they are very important to your strategy and are highly recommended.
-Crucible of Worlds: you'll be sending a lot of your own lands to the graveyard, and this helps to ease the pain. It also allows you to pull of neat tricks like Wastelock (tm) and Nether Factory (tm).
-Dark Ritual: the bread-and-butter of mana accelerants. Run it, and run four of it.
-Innocent Blood: Thresh is a major force in the format and this card is essentially a one-mana Cruel Edict against that deck. Also deals with a first-turn Lackey.
-Infest: useful for Goblins and weenie decks. Partners well with Engineered Plague.
-Funeral Charm: also useful against Goblins. It's very versatile, but rarely impressive.
-Midnight Charm: from the new PC set, this is basically a Funeral Charm that is better against an aggro meta than Funeral Charm is. Midnight Charm can nuke turn one Lackeys or save you from a SoFI-wielding Sea Drake with equal ease. Funeral Charm is probably better in a combo and Goblins meta because it'll never be dead.
-Tomb of Yawgmoth: Also a new addition from the PC set, this card makes all your colorless lands not so colorless anymore. Useful for smoothing out mana issues and it's (almost) better than a basic Swamp.
-Shrouded Lore: timeshifted Forgotten Lore from PC. It can get mana-intensive, but being able to "flash back" Hymn or Pox can be good. Crucible will allow you to get lands out of your graveyard so your opponent's choices are limited to things you actually want to recur. This warrants testing.

There are more cards, but I won't go into them. Suffice it to say, any card that's either black or an artifact, costs three mana or less, and is a legitimate answer to a problem in your meta can be included in the deck.

A Few Notes on the Deck
1) Pox is mono-black for a reason. Yes, it could splash for green for Deed and a LftL card advantage engine. Yes, it could splash for white for Vindicate and Swords, and better win conditions. BUT doing so makes your mana base weaker, as it opens you up to Wasteland disruption on your secondary color. It's bad enough fighting through Wastelands on your Factories, but being kept off a key color is bad, bad news. Also, there are very few things that black cannot do with sufficient cajoling that would require a splash.

2) The worst card in Pox is Pox, and the best card in Pox is Pox. In the right matchups, Pox is a bomb that can cripple your opponent beyond means of recovery. In the wrong matchups (Goblins), Pox speeds your opponent's clock up and costs you the game. The card may be the namesake card of the deck, but sometimes the correct decision is to side out your Poxes for games two and three. This is especially true against Goblins. If you run Engineered Plague and Powder Keg in your maindeck or sideboard, these are much better cards to play than Pox because you should never cast Pox against a Goblins player unless you are already ahead and are reasonably certain that they don't have any savage topdecks waiting for you. That's a lot of qualifiers for one card. In short, maximizing maindeck Poxes is not the best decision, but between the maindeck and the 'board it helps to run three or four.

3) On a slightly less primer-ish note, I need help testing both my build and new PC cards that could be helpful: Midnight Charm, Shrouded Lore, Tomb of Yawgmoth, maybe Extirpate. There aren't many Legacy tournaments around here this time of year, so if we want matchup data and a final, optimized decklist, I'll need help. Feel free to post your matchup data in this thread and I'll compile it in this post.

Now it's time for the moment you've all been waiting (or scrolling down) for: my latest take on the deck.

Sample Build, by me
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
11 Swamp

3 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Infest
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pox

SB:
2 Pox
4 Duress
3 Powder Keg
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Oppression

Sensei's Divining Top acts as card selection and, combined with fetches, it actually does well as a way to keep yourself from running out of steam in the late game. One thing that seems contentious is the inclusion of said fetchlands. They provide a few important functions in this deck: 1) they thin your library out, which is good...you don't want to start topdecking lands in the late game, 2) they make SDT a good card, and finally 3) they bring fresh cards to the top when you aren't impressed with your draws. With a lower Pox count in this deck, the life loss is not so much of an issue.

The addition of Shrouded Lore to the maindeck would enable the deck to continue to apply pressure in the late game even after playing a lot of key spells...think of it as a "mid-air refueling." Who wants to start testing it?

Matchup Analyses and Sideboarding Strategies
~under construction~

EDIT: expanded my post (primer much?) and updated it with my latest random thoughts. Keep the discussion going.

[Tacosnape]

I realize it's all the rage for its massive power, and it's new and awesome, but Extirpate would not be my first choice of Graveyard haters in Pox. Pox already waxes ecstatic against combo and control, Extirpate's strong suits.

Ebony Charm seems much better suited to this task, especially in your build with Phyrexian Arenas, as not only can it empty graveyards, it can also create a two-point life swing with its drain effect, which is crucial when both players life totals are frequently below 10. It can even let a Nether Spirit or Factory swing through for an unblockable 2-3.

[Sea R Hill]

Aggro Zombie, I don't want to be harsh but I don't see the point of your post.
Your list is not very different from the others, and you didn't even tested it! Plus I don't learn anything here that I didn't already know.

[Aggro_zombies]

Aggro Zombie, I don't want to be harsh but I don't see the point of your post.
Your list is not very different from the others, and you didn't even tested it! Plus I don't learn anything here that I didn't already know.
I know that. However, I felt I needed to cover my bases because I was introducing two potentially contentious changes to the deck - a decrease in the number of maindecked Poxes and Phyrexian Arenas as card draw. And I haven't tested the list yet due to a lack of tournaments and a lack of time, which is why I was asking for help.

[Blair Phoenix]

I know that. However, I felt I needed to cover my bases because I was introducing two potentially contentious changes to the deck - a decrease in the number of maindecked Poxes and Phyrexian Arenas as card draw. And I haven't tested the list yet due to a lack of tournaments and a lack of time, which is why I was asking for help.

Eh, I don't really like Arena In Pox. With it, Fetches, Pox, and small pox, You just seem to lose just a bit too much life to my likings. I've been running Top in my build of Pox, and find it much preferable, as I think Card manipulation is much more useful to the deck than outright card draw. Also, your decklist, as far as I can see, does nothing to shore up Pox's weakness to Goblins, which, in my opinion, is the biggest thing keeping Pox from being Tier.

[Clark Kant]

I actually think Aggro Zombies build looks solid.

Yes Pox is a powerhouse but it really isn't that good against this decks weakness, so cutting it might not be a bad call.

I do however think Expirate is unneeded, this deck does fine against control and combo. I love that Arena keeps you packed with disruption, hate the lifeloss though. If only Bottled Clostier costed 3 mana.

If you're running Totem, I actually like Midnight Charm B (possibly even as much as Funeral Charm)
Instant
Choose one - Midnight Charm deals 1 damage to target creature and you gain 1 life; or target creature gains first strike until end of turn; or tap target creature.

Both First Strike and tapping are great with Negator on a stick. And it can kill lackeys like Funeral Charm did. If only it could compete with instant speed discard.

[Sea R Hill]

I didn't test the arena, but i am already short in life points without it, so I will probably not test it. I am also pretty comfortable with the top.

Aggro zombie, I posted a list that use the top and don't use 4 Pox but 3. It must be from page 10 to 12.

[erdjinn]

I didn't test the arena, but i am already short in life points without it, so I will probably not test it. I am also pretty comfortable with the top.

Aggro zombie, I posted a list that use the top and don't use 4 Pox but 3. It must be from page 10 to 12.

I agree. I am always so low at life that I run 1 or 2 Zuran Orb in the sideboard sometimes.

Zuran Orb + Crucible also adds a mana to your pool if you have no lands in the graveyard and haven't played one that turn.

Anyway the point of this post is not to suggest Zuran Orb, but I think Arena is too painful for us.

[Malhavoc]

I've seen a couple of cards in the upcoming Planar Chaos set that would reall fit nice into Pox decks:

Tomb of Yawgmoth
Legendary Land
All lands count as swamps

This is great to turn mishras and wastelands into swamps (and even fetchlands if you don't want to break them taking one damage), and also lets you tap cabal pit without taking damage. There is also a minor advantage, but that sometimes could be handy: since your opponent's lands are swamps too, you can use the swamwalk ability of funeral charm to make Phyrexian Totem or other creatures unblockable. I would run a couple.


Eradicate/Root of Evil (name is still unclear)
Instant - B
Split Second
Remove target card in an opponent's graveyard from the game. Search that opponent's graveyard, hand and library for all copies of that card and remove them from the game.

I wouldn't run this maindeck, but it can be SAVAGE as a sideboard cards against many decks that rely on single, specific, cards, like Iggy Pop or solidarity. Since the deck easily discards/destroy many cards, you can have a lot of interesting targets for this cards. Even just removing nonbasic lands could be nice, and if used in such a way could even be considered maindeck (but I think sideboard is the best choice).



There is also an old card I'm thinking of, which has never been taken in consideration:

Peat Bog
Land
Peat Bog comes into play tapped with two depletion counters on it.
Tap, remove a depletion counter from Peat Bog: add BB to your mana pool. If there are not depletion counters on Peat Bog, sacrifice it.

This land can be dropped on turn one and let you easily have 3 mana turn two. In a build not running rituals, and so with less turn one plays, the comes-into-play-tapped problem is lessen. But the good side of it is that it's the land you always want to sac to pox or smallpox: this way it's just a land which taps for BB with almost no drawback. If you also run crucible, it seems even more interesting. However, its high unreliability makes it very questionable; I would probably try it only in a list which decided not to play dark ritual.



As far as my build goes, I've tried to splash it for white. Yeah, I know that makes the mana base more vulnerable, but vindicate is just too hot: it acts as sinkhole, or can destroy a nasty creature, or even those damn artifacts, first of all artifact mana and the hatred VIAL. Sure, you can run sinkhole, which is better at removing lands, or play innocent blood which is cheaper at removing creatures, or powder keg which is slow but can take out artifact, and other things. But vindicate can do ALL of them.

So, if we run vindicate, we need some white mana source: mox diamond is an excellent mana source, can't be stripped by a wasteland, and speeds up mana development. A couple of scrublands plus some fetchlands are also needed.

Fetches, Mox diamond and a less stable manabase all call crucible (which is, anyway, a very good card in pox, making us recover easier and letting us discarding lands to pox without really losing them).

Crucible calls for Mishra Factory.

Mishra calls for Phyrexian Totem instead of the antisynergic Idol.

So, more or less, the build I'm thinking about (including the above Planar Chaos cards) is:

MANA:
3 Swamp
4 Fetch
2 Scrubland
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual (I see some prefer to take them out, but they seem too useful for casting quick disruption or crucible/totem. Taking them out however would let us improve the threat density)

POX: 8
4 Pox
4 Smallpox

REMOVALS:
4 Vindicate
(I feel like running also Sinkhole is overkill)

DISCARDS:
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Funeral Charm / Duress

I generally prefer Charm, since it can remove creatures too and also makes an instant discards, thus preventing the opponent from using LftL for a turn. It has also some synergy with Tomb of Yawgmot. It is, however, one of the cards you most likely side out for better cards: it is very versatile for the first game, but you can usually put in better ones for the post side games.

OTHERS:
4 Phyrexian Totem
2 Nether Spirit
2 Powder Keg
4 Crucible of Worlds
Yes, four is a lot, but both the mana base and the utility lands benefit from it, and after all you can discard any unused one to (small)pox.

SB (just and idea thrown there):
2 Powder Keg
4 Root of Evil/Estirpate
4 Innocent Blood or Infest
3 Engineered Plague
2 Spinning Darkness
Cabal therapy and oppression both could be good. Cabal Therapy in particular is good with Spirit or Mishra+Crucible, and it's terribly good together with Estirpate because both make you see opponent's hand and call good cards with both of them.

[Blair Phoenix]

Malhavoc, your list is decent, though I'd probably drop a Phyrexian Totem for another Nether Spirit. 4 Totem is just plain overkill in my opinion, and I've had little to no problem with the third Nether spirit usually.