[Single Card Discussion] Rift Bolt

[Clark Kant]

Burn is just aching for that one last 1 cc 3 damage spell to consistently be able to cast 2 spells on turn 2 and turn 3.

Wizards seems to have answered the call.

Rift Bolt 2R
Sorcery
R, Suspend 1
3 damage to player or creature

It's a sorcery but so is Lava Spike.

Does it make the cut?

I'm certain of it.

It's not optimal only 1 in every 15 games that you play!

Yes Suspend 1 means that if you happen to top deck it precisely the turn where you want to kill them, it's bad. But that happens only 1 in every 15 games, low enough to not matter. And even in those 1 in 15 games, it's likely that having to wait one turn for it to resolve won't cost you the game. Add to that Magma Jet and the times when you can cast it for 3, and it becomes a bad card only once very 30 games or so.

This is basically a Lava Spike. Lots of people were saying Lava Spike isn't very good. Yet it became a staple in burn. Heck, unlike Lava Spike, this actually does hit creatures, you just have to wait one turn (or have 3 mana available).

As a burn player, I can tell you that Burn needs just one more 1cc 3 damage spell to have a curve that lets it cast 2 spells turn 2 and turn 3.

Casting multiple spells per turn is precisely how burn manages to overwhelm blue mages running countermagic.

Suspend 1 hardly seems relevent when all the damage is aimed at the dome anyways.

Even as a top deck, you can always cast it for 3 mana if you absolutely must win that turn.

What do you guys think?

Does it make the cut?

Good Job Wizards, now there better be that Jungle Lion 5-8 with Suspend 1. Creatures can attack the same turn they are suspended into play you know.

-------------------------------------------

This is off topic but there's also...

Ancient Grudge 1R
Instant
Destroy target Artifact.
Flashback G

This + Ray of Revelation + Roar of the Wurm + Deep Anaylisis = Quiet Speculation (put 3 cards with flashback into the yard for 2 mana) is a damn good card, no?

Suddenly, Quiet Speculation is an Ancestral Recalls that lets you tutor for which 3 cards you want. Draw, a Threat, or artifact/enchantment destruction.

[Volt]

Those seem pretty good to me, and I think they'll both see some play in Legacy.

[Djelmo]

There's also Magus of the Scroll, but I don't think it will make the cut.

[Clark Kant]

No Magus is pretty much strictly worsed than Cursed Scroll. It's a vulnerable creature and the damage isn't colorless which means pro red creatures are fine.

Rift Bolt however does make the cut I believe. Any disagreers.

[Zilla]

Rift Bolt 2R

Does it make the cut?
Tough call. Personally, I don't think I'd run it.

Pros:

-It's technically a 1cc 3 damage spell and Burn loves those.
-It dodges a CoTV set at 1.

Cons:

-It's sorcery speed.
-If you suspend it (which you most likely will) you don't get to decide when you use it. As soon as you remove the last counter, it's cast. It's rare, but sometimes you actually want to send bolts at creatures (e.g., in response to their being equipped with SoFI), and this doesn't allow for that.
-It's a terrible topdeck, where you want to be maximizing damage per mana the most. It either costs you a full turn with Suspend, or prevents you from playing multiple burn spells on the same turn for the win, which costs you a full turn also.


In short, it's not versatile and it's terrible anytime after turn 3. It's almost always going to be worse than the other available options unless it's in your opening grip.

[Clark Kant]

Godzilla, The situation you describe of top decking precisely the turn that you want to go off only happens once every fifteen games. It's not optimal only 1 in every 15 games that you play! And that's before factoring in Magma Jet or the situations where topdecking it won't cost you the game (ie. you won't die by next turn anyways or have 3 spare mana).

Yes Suspend 1 means that if you happen to top deck it precisely the turn where you want to kill them, it's bad. But that happens only 1 in every 15 games, low enough to not matter. And even in those 1 in 15 games, it's likely that having to wait one turn for it to resolve won't cost you the game. Add to that Magma Jet and the times when you can cast it for 3, and it becomes a bad card only once very 30 games or so.

This is basically a Lava Spike. Lots of people were saying Lava Spike isn't very good. Yet it became a staple in burn. Heck, unlike Lava Spike, this actually does hit creatures, you just have to wait one turn (or have 3 mana available).

As a burn player, I can tell you that Burn needs just one more 1cc 3 damage spell to have a curve that lets it cast 2 spells turn 2 and turn 3.

Casting multiple spells per turn is precisely how burn manages to overwhelm blue mages running countermagic.

[MattH]

The real question is, is this enough to finally make burn not suck? And I think that, even best-case scenario - the card is actually good - that it is not enough.

[SuckerPunch]

It inches burn ever closer to the coveted turn 3 kill.

For example, if your opponent used a fetchland,

Turn one lightning bolt or spark elemental
Turn two rift bolt and chain
Turn three incinerate and lava spike + fireblast = game.

If that incinerate was a flame rift, you don't even need the fetchland.

The scenario becomes more likely with each 1cc 3 damage spell that sees print.

[xsockmonkeyx]

It inches burn ever closer to the coveted turn 3 kill.

For example, if your opponent used a fetchland,

Turn one lightning bolt or spark elemental
Turn two rift bolt and chain
Turn three incinerate and lava spike + fireblast = game.

If that incinerate was a flame rift, you don't even need the fetchland.

The scenario becomes more likely with each 1cc 3 damage spell that sees print.

So will burn become viable now that it gets another goodie? Im curious as to what you think SP :wink:

[SuckerPunch]

obviously i think it'll be a nice boon. :wink:

Viable is a tricky word though. Some would argue Zilla Stompy is no longer viable due to fast combo decks. Yet the deck is still putting up top 8s.

The same with burn and 9 land stompy. They can win a reasonable tourney or two, it's just that few if any good players take them to tournaments as they're usually boring decks.

Whenever good players take 9 land stompy to tourneys for example, they usually do pretty well.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Any deck that to puts up T8s is probably "viable".

[Cavius The Great]

Do we really need another sub-obtimal Lightning Bolt? We already have 12 at our disposal that are all much better than Rift Bolt.

[SillyMetalGAT]

:wink:

You guys totally winked at each other. Gay moments on the Source keep becoming more and more common.

[Eldariel]

The answer to 'Does Burn want another suboptimal Bolt?' is a definite yes! The deck would be much better if it needed to run nothing but Bolts, Fireblasts and Mountains, so every new Bolt-variant, as long as it goes to the head and can be cast early, makes it better.

'Does this do enough to make Burn a tier 1-deck?' No, that's something we need metagame changes and/or development in the burnlists to accomplish, but it makes them better.

[Bane of the Living]

I think the fact it gets around CotV@1 should get it into any burn deck. Seriously. Even if it's topdecked its 3 damage for 3 mana. Thats still Flamebreakish.

[Complete_Jank]

Any deck that to puts up T8s is probably "viable".

But at the same time, decks that put up T8's are moved in to the New and Developmental Form. WTH?!?!

[parallax]

Do we really need another sub-obtimal Lightning Bolt? We already have 12 at our disposal that are all much better than Rift Bolt.

I thought the optimal burn deck was all sub-optimal Bolts. Isn't the objective to go:
Turn 1 bolt
Turn 2 bolt, bolt
Turn 3 bolt, bolt, Fireblast

As far as the new bolt is concerned, I think it's an auto-include 4-of in burn. Its drawback is you have to wait one turn if you topdeck it. Not that bad.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You guys totally winked at each other. Gay moments on the Source keep becoming more and more common.

Actually, its cause SP and I were waiting for another red 3 for 1 to be printed. Here's to your homoerotic fantasies, SMG :wink:

[Ewokslayer]

I thought the optimal burn deck was all sub-optimal Bolts. Isn't the objective to go:
Turn 1 bolt
Turn 2 bolt, bolt
Turn 3 bolt, bolt, Fireblast



Which is why burn is bad.
It is a combo deck with no draw, barely any library manipulation , and yet still needs to make consistant land drops until turn 3 without getting flooded and in order to race other decks needs to have a Fireblast.


But at the same time, decks that put up T8's are moved in to the New and Developmental Form. WTH?!?!
Makes top 8's where?

[Complete_Jank]

Makes top 8's where?

I'm not talking about Burn, heck Burn is in the Open Legacy Forum, yet isn't that good.

I'm talking about other decks.

[Ewokslayer]

I'm not talking about Burn, heck Burn is in the Open Legacy Forum, yet isn't that good.

I'm talking about other decks.

What deck is in New and Developmental that has made top 8s?
and where were those top 8s?

[Complete_Jank]

What deck is in New and Developmental that has made top 8s?
and where were those top 8s?

I can mention a few that are better than burn, and my Deck (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4160)was moved from the Open Legacy Forum, even though I had announced that the list posted makes Top 8's at one of the largest weekly tourneys in the country.

I just can't believe that Burn is on that Forum, yet better decks aren't.

[Zilla]

Which is why burn is bad.
It is a combo deck with no draw, barely any library manipulation , and yet still needs to make consistant land drops until turn 3 without getting flooded and in order to race other decks needs to have a Fireblast.
It has the advantage over other combo decks in that it "goes off" over the course of several turns, which makes it more resilient to disruption, and "fizzling" doesn't mean game loss, it just means topdecking. Nevertheless, it is still bad.


I just can't believe that Burn is on that Forum, yet better decks aren't.
This may come as a surprise, but the Mod staff doesn't actually have enough time to keep track of what decks are doing well at local Top 8's, or what new decks appear to have solid game against the entire upper tier. I wish we did, but we don't. Because of this, I'm sure that quite a few decks which belong in Open have gone unnoticed by us. If you (and others) feel that a deck has reached a point where it is essentially optimized, well and throughly tested, and has a nice thorough explanation in the opening post with the most current decklist, PM one or more Mods and suggest that it be moved to Open. Remember to explain why you think it should be. Particularly, take time to mention if and when and where it's performed well at tournaments.

[SuckerPunch]

Just curious, but have you guys decided whether Rift Bolt is worth playing in burn yet?

And whether or not burn is a viable deck yet? :tongue:

[Xenocide]

Just curious, but have you guys decided whether Rift Bolt is worth playing in burn yet?

And whether or not burn is a viable deck yet? :tongue:

Holy necro batman! Check out the burn thread. And yes, it is worth playing.

[Peter_Rotten]

Good job, son.