Zilla Stompy 2k7 - RG Beats for the Modern Combo Heavy Meta

[Clark Kant]

Yes I know it's not 2k7 yet but the hope is to have this deck finished and finalized by 2k7's arrival.

I love RG Beats in general and Zilla Stompy in particular. Unfortunately, with the surge of viable combo decks, the deck has gone from being metabreaking to only aggrobreaking.

I came to this build in my efforts to speed the clock up by two turns.

Beaters
4 Kird Ape
4 Jungle Lion
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk - Damn near unblockable with a rancor on it.
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 River Boa

Pump
4 Rancor
2 Fireblast/Jitte

Reach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning/Magma Jet - Chain Lightning is solid all around but this deck hates lands third and fourth turn so Magma Jet maybe better.

Mana
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain
5 Forest

Under Consideration:

Silhana Ledgewalker - Untargetable Evasion shouldn't be overlooked.

Rogue Elephant - A 3/3 may be well worth the tempo loss.

Ghazban Ogre - A helluva drawback though.

In a lot of ways, this would be akin to 9 land stompy, but with twice as many lands. The main advantage over 9 land stompy is that it's a lot more resilient thanks to burn and Jitte if I conclude that it's slowness is made up for by it's brokeness. It also plays bigger creatures and doesn't succumb to random mana screw.

The mana base specifically is the area I need the most help testing and optimizing as I generally suck when building mana bases from scratch.

I especially want to hear from Zilla regarding build as I value his opinion on RG Beats.

You can beat very fast burning away blockers and your clock goes up by 1-2 turns compared to traditional Zilla Stompy!

If your opponent gets out a Troll Ascetic or something that you can't burn or trade with and you don't have enough creatures or burn for an alpha strike, you can lean on Rancored unblockables or regenerators or islandwalkers to deal the last few points of damage.

The deck still has a lot of room for tweaking and I keep going back and forth on my creatures and stuff like Jitte versus Fireblast so I could use any feedback you have.

Please put this together on MWS atleast before critiquing it too heavily though.
In a lot of ways, this would be akin to 9 land stompy, but with twice as many lands. The main advantage over 9 land stompy is that it's a lot more resilient thanks to burn and Jitte if I conclude that it's slowness is made up for by it's brokeness. It also plays bigger creatures and doesn't succumb to random mana screw.

I especially want to hear from Zilla regarding build as I value his opinion on RG Beats.

You can beat very fast burning away blockers and your clock goes up by 1-2 turns compared to traditional Zilla Stompy!

If your opponent gets out a Troll Ascetic or something that you can't burn or trade with and you don't have enough creatures or burn for an alpha strike, you can lean on Rancored unblockables or regenerators or islandwalkers to deal the last few points of damage.

The deck still has a lot of room for tweaking and I keep going back and forth on my creatures and stuff like Jitte versus Fireblast so I could use any feedback you have.

Please put this together on MWS atleast before critiquing it too heavily though.

[Shugyosha]

The thread title says something about combo-heavy meta...

What exactly can this deck do against combo, exept trying to be fast? I can't even see BTS in it...

Why is it better than the original list?

[Clark Kant]

Well, being fast is pretty important.

Once you bring in Seedtime or Root Maze or Winter Orb or whatever it is you play to side in against combo, combos clock goes down by two turns usually, and even one extra turn is plenty of time for this deck's creatures to get the win. Even preboard, this deck has a decent shot at racing most combo.

Zilla Stompy on the other hand often can't win even with an extra turn or oftentimes even with two extra turns. Zilla Stompy was designed to control other aggro decks like Goblins with bigger creatures. It was never designed to race combo and can't do so unless it gets a god hand and combo gets a bad hand.

BTS does nothing against most of the popular combo decks. It doesn't even do much against a lot of the less popular reanimator.

I'm not saying the build is perfect, it certainly has room for tweaking. But I don't think it's fair to say this has no advantage over Zilla Stompy. I assure you that this is not true.

[Cavius The Great]

Silhana Ledgewalker - Untargetable Evasion shouldn't be overlooked.

Why are you concerning yourself with creatures with "evasion" when your goal is to beat combo. That's just backwards thinking.

[valor]

This is just a really minor post but I figured I'd point it out lol.
Seedtime sucks vs. combo (at least Solidarity).

Since were basically going for total speed here, there are 2 concerns. One is the use of slightly innefficient creatures for the sake of evasion/untargetablilty. 2 mana for a 1/1 doesnt make it fast enough imo. Keep that out of the deck.
I dont know exactly how the mana base works out but I would assume that lotus petal > some basics if were going for speed? I mean were trying to outrace combo and how often do we need the land to be permanent with such a low mana curve. Magma Jet will be really good in this deck because you are right, it does not want the land. However, i think Jitte just slows it down way too much - I would use the Chain Lightnings in there instead.

Mostly the creature base looks solid though.

[Clark Kant]

The Ledgewalker was just a suggestion for a card under consideration, only because other people were talking about it for 9 land stompy.

Admittedly it was probably a bad suggestion.

I think I like Fireblasts over Chain Lightnings as a finisher but changes to the manabase probably makes it inevitable. I'm not running Jitte.

What manabase do you guys suggest. I doubt the one I wrote was optimal.

Would you guys run Lotus Petal though, if so how much and how many lands would be cut.

[xsockmonkeyx]

This deck is essentially the same as Dave Feinstein's deck, "Apeshit"




Apeshit

4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Tagia
4 Mountain
4 Stomping Grounds
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Naturalize
[4] Red Elemental Blast


Read about it here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4195

[Clark Kant]

Uhh... that deck shares a total of four cards with this deck, all four of which are staples. Mine is green with a splash of burn, yours is red sligh with a very light splash of green of just two cards. I don't see how that qualifies as essentially the same.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Uhh... that deck shares a total of four cards with this deck, all four of which are staples. Mine is green with a splash of burn, yours is red sligh with a very light splash of green of just two cards. I don't see how that qualifies as essentially the same.

They share Kird ape, Lightning Bolt, Scab-Clan Mauler, Chain Lightning/Magma Jet, some of the mana base, and Fireblast has been suggested.

His is a R/G Beats deck designed specifically to race with combo so its essentially the same idea. It has some nice ideas like 4x stomping grounds to support Kird Ape and Fireblast.

[Phantom]

I've played my fair share of R/G beatz and I gotta say, I like Apeshit a little better than your list Clark. Here are some thoughts on the two lists and RG in general:

1) Careful with that title. This deck isn't really Zilla Stompy, and for R/G to have any shot in a combo heavy meta it would have to run hate mainboard, which you don't. There's no way R/G can race IGGy, and Solidarity will certainly be unfavored even if you board 8 cards.

2) Mogg Fanatic makes Bloodthirst go. Scab-Clan Mauler is pretty crappy without him.

3) Wild Mongrel is the shit when it comes to 2 drops.

4) Your build seems to focus on evasion with creatures like Skarrgan Pit-Skulk and River Boa. Both creatures are pretty crappy without Rancor, which is only a 4-of.

5) Haven't done enough testing with Grim Lavamancer to really say whether or not he's better than Skyshroud Elite, but I'd agree that Fireblast needs to be a 4-of and Stomping Grounds are a good way to ensure the mountains.

6) ESG seems subpar here. You will almost never hardcast her, so Lotus petal seems better, but why do you even need the accel? Everything in the deck is cheap and fast and I think I'd rather have the extra burn.

[Kenderleech]

Or you could try this... it was plan B for legacy worlds for me, and I think I should have played it.


4 taiga
4 plateau (engineered explosives/STP in the board)
4 wooded foothills


4 kird ape
4 ghazban ogre
4 Jungle lion
4 elvish spirit guide

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 fireblast
4 lava spike
4 rancor
4 briar shield
4 taste for mayhem
4 land grant


SB
4 sirocco
4 price of progress
4 engineered explosives
3 swords to plowshares


and here is an except from someone, about this build

BigBear102: i just dealt 18 damage on turn 3
BigBear102: and he was at 10
BigBear102: this deck is sick

[rsaunder]

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=293419

My thoughts are in this thread. Mostly because I saw it there first. In the post I recommend MB pyroststic pillar, as well as larger creatures and basicly cutting 1 slum, 1 magma jet, and 1 jitte from Zilla's origional 2K6 stompy for pillars.

[Ch33bs]

@Kenderleech - Why do you have PoP in SB when you run NO BASICS?

@Clark - The manabase needs to be fixed definetly. Since you dont like the 3rd and 4th turn lands I'd suggest dropping the count to 14. I'd go like -2 of each basic, adding 4 Mogg Fanatic. That would be from your list. If I went playing Zilla Stompy in a combo heavy meta it'd be 2k6 swapping the positions of Jitte and PyroPillar.

[Clark Kant]

This isn't 9 land stompy, you play too many 2cc cards for it to be.

Counting land grant, even 9 land stompy runs 13 land slots.

14 lands could work but that would mean cutting River Boa, running Chain Lightning over Magma Jet and setting yourself up to often only have one land in play.

That would be fine except that with the nonbasics you run, you're opening yourself up to Wasteland in a big way.

[Ch33bs]

I definetly see this deck more like 9LS the ZS2K6. 9LS has has 9 lands, 4 ESG and 4 Grants and it succesfully runs Boa. I would never cut Jet it's just too good. If you are shooting for this deck for a combo meta you'd hardly see Wastelands. Also why is there no PyroPillar in your deck if you are in a combo meta? I'd cut the fanatic and put Pillar MD in a combo meta.

Just how much combo is in your meta anyways?

[kicks_422]

I'm an avid player of Sligh since way back in Tempest block, and after seeing your build, I MWS'd it and found that it has a slower clock than my R/g Dryad Sligh deck... It's also less resilient because of all the small creatures, meaning if the game goes late, you'd have little to no chance of winning...

If you want to go this route though, I suggest 4 Pillars, 4 REB, 4 Naturalize, 3 Crypt in the SB... SAme as mine... :tongue:

[Hanni]

If your in a combo heavy meta, why don't you just run UGw Threshold, UWb Fish, UWg Slivers, or some other aggro/control deck. At least that way your chances of winning the tournament increase greatly and you don't have to sacrifice the decks effectiveness against other decks just to make its weak matchups stronger. I'm not trying to stifle innovation here, but it just seems like G/R Beats (or R/G, whatever you prefer) is not the deck you should be playing if combo is that abundant in your meta.

As far as the decklist goes, I'd splash white and turn it into Zoo. That way, you can include Isamaru, Watchwolf, and Savannah Lions to your creature list and you can also include Swords to Plowshares in your sideboard if you need it.

If your worried about combo, I wouldn't add cards like Briar Shield to your deck, run maindeck Pyrostatic Pillars. If your going for a faster win, Chain Lightning seems far more important than Magma Jet. Your not going to be playing your burn immediately (dropping creatures first), your going to want to be able to drop creatures and burn in subsequent turns (1cc less helps), and the game is probably not going to last enough turns for the Scry to matter. Fireblast should definitely be ran as a 4-of.

If your not worried about aggro and your trying to race combo, why not add Concordant Crossroads? It may not deal damage itself but it's going to help you deal that damage much faster. You could run less burn and more creatures this way and make greater use of cards like Rancor.

Jitte is a great card but its going to slow you down against combo. Since combo is the issue here, maindeck Pyrostatic Pillar instead of Jitte but put Jitte in your sideboard incase you run into aggro.

I still stand by what I said originally... if combo is so abundant in your meta, play aggro/control.

[Kenderleech]

Cheebs: I play POPs in the board for the same reason people play Char in type 2. It doesnt matter how much damage I take so long as they die, and I dont. think of them as instant flame rifts, if that makes it easier, or superchars. Because the deck is so land light, but low CC'ed, its a finisher that does 4-6 to me (or 0-2 if I fireblast with the mana floated) and 4-8 to my opponent.

[Complete_Jank]

Why not run more fetches as your mana base...

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Forest

This has nothing on combo so I don't see the point.

I agree with Cavius, weird huh?

[Complete_Jank]

EDIT: Multiple posts again.

[Complete_Jank]

Why not run more fetches as your mana base...

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Forest

This has nothing on combo so I don't see the point.

I agree with Cavius, weird huh?

[Kenderleech]

I dont run 6 fetches because I Do run ghazban ogre. Load it into MWS, Draw out a few hands. Send back any hand without a guy, a pump spell, and a land.

Then plug in your changed mana base, and do the same thing. The reason for the plateaus is for the SB Plows and explosives.

[Poron]

The best list, imho, is the one with a little white splash once sided.

But I would cut the white Splash :|. You don't need StP, you have so many burns to pwn opponent's creatures.. and anyway EE is for what? Creatures? surely not, and for Enchantments and Artifacts you have Naturalize etc. etc.

Good deck but stay R/G

[Hanni]

The reason for splashing white isn't for StP... it's for Savannah Lions, Isamaru, and Watchwolf.

[Poron]

Savannah Lion -----> Jungle Lion
Watchwolf ----> Scab Clan Mauler (which tramples too..)
Isamaru ---> Skarrgan Pit-Skulk (which is unbloackable too..)

etc etc

I would stay R/G really.. Remember all the burns which red has to deal damages to opponent to have our bloodthirsted creatures to comes into play pimped up -____-

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Rancor
4 Giant Growth/Berserk/Taste of Mayhem.

etc etc etc This deck rox.

[Hanni]

But the replacements for Isamaru and Watchwolf can be very situational... if your playing Scab-Clan turn 2, you have to deal combat damage with your turn 1 drop (which has the possibility of being removaled or whatever). I'm not saying that Scab-Clan isn't going, but I think Watchwolf is a bit better. Aside from that though, I think it's a good idea to run both Watchwolf and Scab-Clan Mauler to increase your chances of playing a 3/3 on turn 2. The same goes for Isamaru, though I'd probably pass Savannah Lions over.

4 Kird Ape
4 Jungle Lion
3 Isamaru
4 Scab-Clan
4 Watchwolf

That looks like a solid base to me. Aside from that, you can add extra 1cc or 2cc guys to fill out your base with whatever else you'd want (if anything). The rest of the room can be devoted to playing spells.

I just think that Zoo (GRw) provides a better 1cc/2cc creature package than G/R does. For the Beats players who want some 3cc guys, Anurid Brushopper, Burning-Tree Shaman, and Troll Ascetic are all good plays. This decks focus was combo though, so leaving the creatures at 1cc and 2cc is probably the best idea.

It also doesn't really strain the manabase any more to run 3 colors, it just opens up it's vulnerability to Wasteland far more. 7-8 fetchlands will make sure that you get the appropiate mana sources necessary and some of the basic Forests can become Savannah's or basic Mountains can become Plateu's.

That's just how I feel about it though.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Sorry if this has been brought up already, but what about Lightning Helix? Its a 6 point life swing if aimed at your opponents dome, and its just a better Lightning Bolt for 1 more mana. It would be like playing 6 kinda....