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Finn
09-25-2006, 07:15 PM
I am largely pasting a post I made at Salvation here. I am anxious to hear opinions on this. Please excuse the overkill.

As we all have been, I was poring over the spoiler for Time Spiral when it hit me - Carrionette!

Was that cryptic enough? Are you thoroughly confused? Good.
Did you know that if you activate Carrionette and the opponent pays the it is not removed from the game? That is because for some strange reason Wizards decided to have the removal of Carrionette be part of the resolution and not a cost. Look at the wording, the colon comes before any mention of removing it from the game. For that same reason, you can actually activate it, and if you have the mana, activate it again before the first one resolves. In fact, for each you spend, provided the opponent can not spring for the prevention mana, you get to remove a creature from the game. It doesn't matter what happens to Carrionette once the ability is on the stack. There is no intervening "if" clause such as the oracle wording on Goblin Welder or Parallax Wave. If Carrionette were not outclassed by today's graveyard sleazes, this sort of interaction could be common in Legacy circles. Now why did I mention any of this? Mangara of Corondor is why.

Mangara of Corondor
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
T: Remove Mangara of Corondor and target permanent from the game.
"I have been brought to this place and I cannot leave. I may be free of the amber, but I am still in prison."
Illus. Zoltan Boros & Gabor Szikszai
1/1


If I have the following permanents in play, I can have a lot of fun with this guy:
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Concordant Crossroads or similar effect
1 Karakas

Can you see the sleaze? It works like this:
1. Play Mangara
2. Tap him to remove something ugly
3. Before resolution of that effect, untap him with Quirion Ranger
4. Tap him again for a new target
5. Return him to your hand with Karakas

Result: any two targets removed from the game and Mangara is in your hand where he started. Got an Aether Vial? Then make it 4 permanents and Mangara goes with them. My only question is whether Mangara's ability removes him even if he is in the wrong zone (your hand) upon resolution. I can't think of an example of this and I do not know the rule well enough.
Now on to the deck.

//crappy yet synergistic deck fragment
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Concordant Crossroads
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Glowrider
4 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Hokori Dust Drinker
4 Aether Vial
4 Ice Storm
3 Watchwolf
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
3 Karakas
4 Savannah
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
5 Forest
//

Probably a pile, but it has sleaze potential. We should take this somewhere. And if you like Standard, you'll love this card:

Scryb Ranger
Creature - Faerie
Flash (You may play this spell any time you could play an instant.)
Flying, protection from blue
Return a Forest you control to its owner's hand: Untap target creature. Play this ability only once each turn.
Illus. Rebecca Guay
1/1

to sleaze him with fewer distractions.

UrDraco
09-25-2006, 07:36 PM
My guess is that your idea works. If you look at the wording of standstill:

"When a player plays a spell, sacrifice Standstill. If you do, each of that player's opponents draws three cards."

It looks like Mangara of Corondor works because it doesn't have the little "if you do" clause. If anything I believe this card could work well in some sort of Survival deck because it already runs Quirion Ranger adn allows you to search for Mangara of Corondor. The only thing left would be a way to find Karakas. Deffinitly worth thinking about. Yay wizards for placing the : where they did.

xsockmonkeyx
09-25-2006, 08:13 PM
I like the idea and most of the shell.

Why watchwolf? I think Isamaru HoK would be better because you also throw in some legendary cheapness with Karakas.

Also why Ice Storm? For one more mana you can 'geddon all their lands away after Mangara has does his thing.

Good luck with this, I expect errata if this turns out well :smile:

Edit: theres also Time of Need, Elidamri's Call, and E. Tutor + SotF to help set your pieces up.

Also, maybe you could abuse that new split second card that removes a creature from play and then returns it immediately.

Finn
09-26-2006, 01:38 PM
Well, I actually put some effort into this version which is guaranteed to be decent, but possibly too ambitious. Tell me what you think.

Better deck

Legendary Creatures
2 Captain Sisay
2 Hokori, Dust Drinker
4 Mangara of Corondor
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Creatures
1 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Glowrider
4 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Anger
1 Grim Lavamancer

Other Stuff
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

Land
3 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plateau
1 Pendelhaven
2 Forest
2 Taiga
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath

I had been hoping to avoid going into the Survival Zone but it is worth a try. This is still aggro-control but with much more search. I have tested this exactly zero times as of yet, but it is better than the first one for certain. The mana supply was more than ample at two colors, so I splurged for access to Anger and additional creature removal. This version should be decent without Survival and a beast with it. It still looks a bit too slow to take on combo, but it may surprise us and prove to be controllish enough to keep combo decks restocking their pieces long enough to take them down.

eq.firemind
12-21-2009, 12:22 PM
I've been toying with Survival and DnT hybryd last 3-4 days and after searching The Source I found this thread, so let it live again.

My goal was to not walk too far away from DnT, so I put i only a minimal Sur package and the deck can still play like DnT if you have no Survival.
Here's my decklist:

Maindeck:

LANDS (22) - Survival wants many :g:, so only 4 utility lands left
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Karakas
1 Temple Garden
3 Plains
2 Forest

1-DROPS (14)
4 Noble Hierarch - Better Birds. Much better
4 Aether Vial - Obv.
4 Swords to Plowshares - Obv.
2 Mother of Runes - Mom is great in regular DnT, so why not put it here?

2-DROPS (17)
4 Tarmogoyf - Obv.
2 Serra Avenger - Additional beater
3 Gaddock Teeg - Badass. Becomes huge badass with Mom protecting him
2 Ethersworn Canonist - She's better than Teeg against some opponents
1 Scryb Ranger - Great with Hierarch, Mom and Mangara
1 Qasali Pridemage - Obv.
4 Survival of the Fittest - Obv.

3-DROPS (7)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob - Obv.
1 Mangara of Corondor - Now only 1 'cause you have Survival to find him.
4 Flickerwisp - DnT's best creature
1 Eternal Witness - Insane with Flickerwisp

SIDEBOARD
3 Orim's Chant - Obv.
1 Children of Korlis - Tutorable answer to Burn (and Tendrils).
3 Tormod's Crypt - Obv.
1 Tivadar of Thorn - Goblins will cry
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender - Obv.
1 Ethersworn Canonist - Good against Canadian Thresh, Burn and decks with Dark Ritual.
1 True Believer - against Burn and Discard
1 Devout Lightcaster - The newcomer. There are some black cards I realy don't like to see: Bob, Tombstalker, Pernicious Deed and some others.

I know other people working (or worked) on DnT survival, so please share your thoughts here.

<EDIT> ...Wow, I just read the dates. Looks like the the greatest necro of all time! :cool:

Philipp2293
12-21-2009, 12:36 PM
Some comments:
4 Karakas seems too much, why not run 1 Knight of the Reliquary? Then you could cut the Karakas by at least 1 copy and have one additional beater.
I think 1 Mangara is a little low, because this increases your dependence on survival.
Basically I really like this Idea, I'm gonna brainstorm and test a bit and report back.

sco0ter
12-21-2009, 01:34 PM
Maybe it is time to revisit Angry Mangara Survival (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4475)!?

Especially now with Knight of Reliquary.

I imagine it would be fun, to drop Knight, search for Karakas, Vial in Mangara and get the fun going!

Vacrix
12-21-2009, 02:06 PM
This is a sick idea that I think I will fit into a shell I have been working on for quite some time now.

This is a deck I have been working on in order to abuse ranger tricks. I never though to include Mangara.



Power Rangers
Land: (18)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra

Creatures: (30)
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Scryb Ranger

4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Qasali Pridemage

4 Ohran Viper
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells: (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

SB:
4 Trinisphere
4 Stasis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
1 Forsaken City

Both rangers work really well with MoM to protect your creatures, Wayfarer to find wastelands, KoTR to find wastelands or just to make him huge, BoP/Hierarch to produce mana with few land (a mana catalyst), with the additional bonus of combat tricks like untapping creatures for blocking or just saving your low land count from wasteland or sinkhole.

I think that Mangara can fit into this shell perfectly. The list already has rangers, and runs wayfarer to find karakas for the lock.

I'm not quite sure what to cut to tell the truth. Likely 1 Garruk will go, but resolving him with enough creatures usually spells the word Game. It's also tight with trinisphere and stasis in game 2/3. Likely I will try the following:
-1 fetch
-1 Garruk
-1 Ohran Viper
+2 Mangara
+1 Karakas

It could be good enough to justify running even fewer vipers and moar Mangara. I'll test this list and see how it goes. Wayfarer/KoTR allows you to find Karakas for the lock, but 1 Karakas may not be enough.

Brilliant idea man. Mangara plus rangers has made my day.

EDIT:
Just realized, if Mangara is added to my list, Qasali Pridemage is kinda unnecessary.
-2 Qasali Pridge Mage
+1 Mangara
+1 Ohran Viper

Illissius
12-21-2009, 09:18 PM
I keep seeing Karakas used with Mangara, but I barely ever see Minamo. Minamo also works.

Aggro_zombies
12-21-2009, 09:22 PM
I keep seeing Karakas used with Mangara, but I barely ever see Minamo. Minamo also works.
Not in the way the deck wants it to. Karakas lets you use Mangara an essentially limitless number of times because he won't ever remove himself from the game, but Minamo will only get you one extra use before he disappears forever.

Illissius
12-21-2009, 09:34 PM
An extra Vindicate still isn't nothing.

Vacrix
12-21-2009, 09:47 PM
I keep seeing Karakas used with Mangara, but I barely ever see Minamo. Minamo also works.

Minamo is cool, but it can't bounce creatures. Keep in mind, saving mangara from removal before he can be effective can be just as important as removing permanents and then bouncing him.


Not in the way the deck wants it to. Karakas lets you use Mangara an essentially limitless number of times because he won't ever remove himself from the game, but Minamo will only get you one extra use before he disappears forever.

Good Point.


An extra Vindicate still isn't nothing.

Its more than an extra vindicate when you have rangers in play. You can remove 2 permanents a turn every 2 turns. Badass eh? And the permanents are RFG which is better than vindicate. Also keep in mind the more rangers in play, the more vindicates you get each turn. :D

eq.firemind
12-22-2009, 02:20 AM
Some comments:
4 Karakas seems too much, why not run 1 Knight of the Reliquary? Then you could cut the Karakas by at least 1 copy and have one additional beater.
I think 1 Mangara is a little low, because this increases your dependence on survival.
Running less lands is a bad thing - DnT's best number is 22 and here we have Survial (so we need more manasources) and Noble Hierarch (here they are). Also I like my Wastelands.
1 Mangara is enough - I tried 2 and dismissed the second one in favor of Witness.




Just realized, if Mangara is added to my list, Qasali Pridemage is kinda unnecessary.
I came to the same conclusion. Every time I wanted to kill art/ench, I searched for Mangara.

I'll try -1 Qasali, -1 Karakas, -1 something, +1 KotR, +1 Taiga, +1 Anger.
Just don't know what to cut for Anger. Most likely it will be Ethersworn Canonist. I don't feel good about stepping away from DnT, but who knows...

Also, Devout Lightcaster wins games against Eva Green and some other decks and is sick with Flickerwisp. For the price of only 1 SB slot she's descent at least if your meta has some :b:-based decks.
Another guy I want to try is Aven Mindcensor, most likely as sideboard card in True Believer's slot.

Vacrix
12-22-2009, 03:44 AM
Running less lands is a bad thing - DnT's best number is 22 and here we have Survial (so we need more manasources) and Noble Hierarch (here they are). Also I like my Wastelands.
1 Mangara is enough - I tried 2 and dismissed the second one in favor of Witness.

Less land is bad provided its in the survival shell. The version I'm testing is running really well on just 18 land. Hierarch/BoP + rangers is ridiculous.


I'll try -1 Qasali, -1 Karakas, -1 something, +1 KotR, +1 Taiga, +1 Anger. Just don't know what to cut for Anger. Most likely it will be Ethersworn Canonist. I don't feel good about stepping away from DnT, but who knows...
A local friend plays DnT and I came to the conclusion that Flickerwisp is mediocre in too many situations, namely in those situations where you don't have vial. If you cut something, I would cut one of those. Good call on cutting a karakas. I thinkt eh number looks better at 2, and moar KoTR. You already run wasteland, and you can wastelock decks with nonbasics with KoTR.

Also, how has the deck been running when you don't draw survival?

eq.firemind
12-22-2009, 04:19 AM
A local friend plays DnT and I came to the conclusion that Flickerwisp is mediocre in too many situations, namely in those situations where you don't have vial. If you cut something, I would cut one of those.
It's more than descent by itself (Chalice, EE, 'Nought, Marit Lage, Crusher, Lorescale,), insane with Vial and I have Witness (tutorable by Sur) to make it even better.
No. I love that card.

Good call on cutting a karakas. I thinkt eh number looks better at 2, and moar KoTR. You already run wasteland, and you can wastelock decks with nonbasics with KoTR.
I'll try that too, but I don't feel good about it...


Also, how has the deck been running when you don't draw survival?
Well, I play some good cards (like Tarmo, Hierarch, Wasteland, StP, Vial, Teeg, Mother of Runes...), so the deck can win games without Sur online just like DnT can win games without Mangara engine.

Vacrix
12-22-2009, 04:35 AM
It's more than descent by itself (Chalice, EE, 'Nought, Marit Lage, Crusher, Lorescale,), insane with Vial and I have Witness (tutorable by Sur) to make it even better.
No. I love that card.

It has been clunky in the games I have played with it. I dont really have enough experience with DnT to say either way. In the games I played with it, I always wanted something else. Do you really want 4 though? You already have survival to search for more copies, and MoM is pretty good at stalling the game, protecting your creatures, etc until you get Sur online. I don't see a problem with running it because obviously it has some pretty sick interactions; however, I think 4 is too many. 2 or 3 looks better. Also, I just noticed that Flickerwisp interacts rather nicely with KoTR, allowing you to find 2 wastelands in a turn.

EDIT:
As a side note, I've been testing my list, and its won every game so far. I've beaten Isochron Scepter.dec, Elves, Thresh, and Merfolk so far. Against scepter, I accelerated into everything so fast, stifling his imprint on turn 2 and then playing out the rest of my hand on turn 3 that he lost. Elves got owned by Ohran Viper + rangers, and I drew enough cards to play into the mangara lock. Thresh I only played one game, but it was fast. I got Wayfarer + ranges online, along with 2 Mom and an ohran viper against his goyf. Merfolk I stablized at 6 life after gettin attacked unblocked by merfolk sovereign until I finally resolved a mangara, and then beat him with the lock via finding karakas with wayfarer.

eq.firemind
12-22-2009, 04:47 AM
It has been clunky in the games I have played with it. I dont really have enough experience with DnT to say either way. In the games I played with it, I always wanted something else. Do you really want 4 though? You already have survival to search for more copies, and MoM is pretty good at stalling the game, protecting your creatures, etc until you get Sur online. I don't see a problem with running it because obviously it has some pretty sick interactions; however, I think 4 is too many. 2 or 3 looks better.
Maybe I'll cut 1 Wisp because of Survival, but i'll try that after everything else. Believe me, Wisp is insane card in DnT.

Also, I just noticed that Flickerwisp interacts rather nicely with KoTR, allowing you to find 2 wastelands in a turn.
Only if you have Anger in yard and Taiga in play and I haven't tested it yet.
<EDIT> If you have Anger in GY, you can use KotR to find Taiga, cast/Vial Flickerwisp targeting KotR, attack with (now hasted) Wisp, EoT use (now hasted) Knight.
The growing number of synergies and possible cool moves starts being a little brainfucking... and that's just what I like in Magic decks...

<EDIT 2> Just for reference, my updated list:

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Karakas
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
3 Plains
2 Forest

4 Aether Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Serra Avenger
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Scryb Ranger

3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Anger

2 Undecided, currently Mother of Runes

Side:
3 Orim's Chant
1 Children of Korlis
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Devout Lightcaster
2 Krosan Grip

I switched Flickerwisp for Mangara an it served well.
KotR is good as 1-of, maybe I'll increase the number.
Anger needs more testing, I don't know for now if I need Haste that much for the cost of weaker manabase and slightly worse topdecks. The only time I realy wanted that haste is when I'm ready to start RFG with Mangara and don't want my opponent to kill it on sight (well, he can, but it will be 2 for 1), but Mother of Runes offers that protection too. I feel the need in some GY hate in maindeck, so if not Anger fails, I'll try the former D&T creature Stonecloaker. It's not that good after M10, so running 3 maindeck is bad, but with Survival I can run 1 and still be able to do lots of tricks.
I tried Iona+Retainers, but the combo screwed my topdecks too much.
I have a good impression about the number for 2-costed beaters. 6 is the right number. 4 Tarmo and 2 Avenger are in the list, but I sometimes want 3/3 split. Not because Tarmo is worse than Avenger (he definely is not), but 'cause if a deck has Relic of Progenitus in sb, you'll face it in games 2 and 3 and you run 9+ cards that suffer from little artifact: 4 Survival, 4 Goyf, 1-2 KotR. By decreasing the number of GY-dependant cards you will make their sideboarding less effective. By the way, that's my argument against 2nd KotR. Also, the deck has less :g: sources than normal Survival. Fetching/playing basics is good, so less green cards can't be bad.