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Complete_Jank
09-25-2006, 07:29 PM
I wish to not share this deck any longer

Negator131
09-25-2006, 07:44 PM
Why isn't Seal of Cleansing Harmonic Sliver (Indrik Stomphowler as a 1/1 for 1GW)?

To me, four AEther Vial is a must in this deck. Vial helps recoup the tempo loss which Survival demands.

Intuition seems kind of mediocre in here. All your cards are tutorable with Survival of the Fittest and Enlightened Tutor anyway; what's the advantage to running Intuition as well?

I think this deck wants a Trinket Mage and an Engineered Explosives as well.

Is Chrome Mox better than Wall of Roots in here?

Why aren't your basic lands Artifact Lands?

With the addition of the Trinket Mage, you could run one Lion's Eye Diamond and one Auriok Salvagers as a random game-winnning combo, easily tutorable with Survival. Out of the sideboard, it would really broadside people.

Bane of the Living
09-25-2006, 08:40 PM
Chrome Mox is amazing and very needed. Props on playing Vial, its great @ one since it gives you the uncounterable eot welders then something to weld.

Consider cutting Rofello's and changing your manabase. Titan is god but not when he geddons your 4color ass too. Get a playset of City of Brass in there and please god fit some artifact lands.

Aside from that consider cutting white. I know you like E tutor but you have Survival as a toolbox already, add more blue for Brainstorm or Thirst for Knowledge. Thirst is amazing because it lets you play turn one Welder, turn 2 Thirst via chrome mox, pitch a fatty and reanimate. Ive played alot of games where Needle took out Survival and I had my huge artifacts in hand were welder couldnt access them. Nice list tho, much more focused then your last.

Complete_Jank
09-26-2006, 03:39 PM
I don't wish to share info

Complete_Jank
09-26-2006, 03:40 PM
EDIT: posted multiples.

Complete_Jank
09-26-2006, 03:40 PM
EDIT: posted multiples.

Complete_Jank
09-26-2006, 03:41 PM
EDIT: posted multiples.

Complete_Jank
09-26-2006, 05:54 PM
Not only did it post 4 times, it also didn't bump it to the top of the page, WTH?

Complete_Jank
10-08-2006, 08:45 PM
Updated list.

Also, I played the current list at Star City Duel for the Duals.

MattH
10-08-2006, 10:25 PM
Updated list.

Also, I played the current list at Star City Duel for the Duals.
This begs the question, "...and how did you do?"

Bane of the Living
10-09-2006, 06:35 PM
Props for playing the deck. Wish you did better.

You should try Platinum Angel + Sylvian Safekeeper. Its way better than Intruder Alarm and other jank, and its probably your best way to win every game against any deck that doesnt play Wrath. Safekeeper pulls double duty by protecting precious welders as well.

Complete_Jank
10-27-2006, 06:00 PM
Ok, I am thinking of changing up the deck and trying to run brainstorms and predicts. I already run Enlighten Tutor, so what do you think?

Bane of the Living
10-27-2006, 06:35 PM
I would've recommended Brainstorm in the first place but I never considered Predict. It could mill a Titan into the yard THEN net you 2 cards. Wow. Ill have to give it a try, I dont play E tutor so that might be detrimental to how well it works.

Complete_Jank
10-27-2006, 06:48 PM
I would've recommended Brainstorm in the first place but I never considered Predict. It could mill a Titan into the yard THEN net you 2 cards. Wow. Ill have to give it a try, I dont play E tutor so that might be detrimental to how well it works.

If it works real well, it might be worth putting a 4th Enlighten tutor or maybe add something like Sylvan Library or something else to take advantage of Predict. Maybe I'll start running Devining Top.

Predict might be the 2 mana cost instant that I was talking about needing on the salvation website. Only problem is that it is situational.

troopatroop
10-27-2006, 06:55 PM
Brainstorm is an iffy inclusion in this deck. I see this as more of a combo-esque style deck that is difficult to hate out. Weld titan as fast as possible. Brainstorm, while utterly amazing, may be too far away from that goal and make the deck less streamlined.

I'm fairly sure when CN played this deck and it was considered a DTB, he cut brainstorm. I could be wrong tho, as brainstorm is the nuts in many many instances.

Bane of the Living
10-27-2006, 08:28 PM
Brainstorm is an iffy inclusion in this deck. I see this as more of a combo-esque style deck that is difficult to hate out. Weld titan as fast as possible. Brainstorm, while utterly amazing, may be too far away from that goal and make the deck less streamlined.

I'm fairly sure when CN played this deck and it was considered a DTB, he cut brainstorm. I could be wrong tho, as brainstorm is the nuts in many many instances.

You are wrong. CN played Brainstorms as well. Its the first 4 of blue card in the deck if you ask me. There is no style of deck its bad in, combo, control, or aggro. Its a one mana card that 'draws' three. In vintage they call it the best unrestricted card for a reason.

troopatroop
10-27-2006, 09:33 PM
You are wrong. CN played Brainstorms as well. Its the first 4 of blue card in the deck if you ask me. There is no style of deck its bad in, combo, control, or aggro. Its a one mana card that 'draws' three. In vintage they call it the best unrestricted card for a reason.

You are wrong. Linkage. http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606

Or just to highlight...

Welder Survival
//Engines
4|Goblin Welder
4|Survival of the Fittest

//Mana
4|Birds of Paradise
1|Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1|Quirion Ranger

//Draw and Search
4|Thirst for Knowledge
2|Intuition

//Fat
1|Triskelion
1|Phyrexian Colossus
1|Sundering Titan
1|Platinum Angel

//Weld Bait
1|Pentavus
1|Shield Sphere

//The Tools
1|Duplicant
2|Eternal Witness
1|Viridian Zealot
1|Uktabi Orangutan/Keldon Vandals
1|Genesis
1|Anger
1|Squee, Goblin Nabob
1|Spore Frog
1|Goblin Sharpshooter
1|Wood Elves
1|?????

//Trees, Hills, and Rocks oh, and Jewels
5|Forest
3|Tropical Island
4|Taiga
4|Wooded Foothills
1|Windswept Heath
2|Tree of Tales
3|Chrome Mox


Oooh!! here too!

Q: Isn't Brainstorm a good card for this deck?
A: Short answer, NO! Long answer, no, no, no, no. Non-opinionated asshole answer: Well Brainstorm is a card that hopes to solidify the early game, and with so many early game threats already packed in the deck it's hard to find a spot for Brainstorm and hard to find a good reason to run it. The only thing that is feasible to cut for Brainstorm are creatures and that would add to the inconsistencies by forcing you either to spend extra mana to get Squee, thus slowing you down or not get Squee and not find a creature to pitch to Survival. Thirst for Knowledge already helps the card draw for the deck, I truly prefer powerful effects to effecient ones, however thirst is both powerful and effecient.


L O L

Complete_Jank
10-30-2006, 06:26 PM
I plan on upping the count of fetch lands in the deck to help with a few different things, like ensuring I have the land I want, and to allow more non-actual land type lands.

That will make Brainstorm better as well. The Brainstorm comment is actually directed at making use of Predict.

Finn
10-31-2006, 12:23 PM
Actually that post from Cavern Ninja was not the original form of that deck. It went through a lot of changes even after they went to Blue. At first it was full of counterspells and yes, Brainstorm. If you dig deeper, you would find that in the end, he did not even use Intuition anymore, and he included Basking Rootwalla. That is by no means a definitive list. And there is a reason people ultimately lost interest in it. Blue sux sweaty balls in this deck.

Complete_Jank
10-31-2006, 09:49 PM
I have also thought about Firestorm as a means for discard.

Bane of the Living
11-01-2006, 08:41 PM
We should stop talking about Cavern Ninja because he isnt posting in this thread, he's playing WoW. Debating Brainstorm out of a deck is one of the most foolish notions I've seen in the New and Developmental forums. It's the biggest push the deck has towards consistancy and is easily one of the best turn ones you can make with the deck. It saves Survival from Hymn and Duress and does amazing deck stacking tricks when playing with fetches and SotF.

Blue is amazing in the deck and I wouldnt play without it. You need green for survival, red for welder, and blue for the rest of the combo. Without Thirst for Knowledge and Intuition the deck scoops up to yard hate so much more. The deck needs to combo without Survival. There is Pithing Needle, there's now Krosan Grip. You cant rely on survival to pitch your creatures away. Show me a non blue way to do this and I'll shake your hand.

Complete_Jank
11-01-2006, 09:35 PM
Blue is great, and I like the thought of running Brainstorm, but it isn't the best first turn move possible. I really like first turn survival better.

Finn
11-02-2006, 10:19 AM
Bane, yard hate is not a particularly big problem for this deck. It has not been for quite some time. Personally, I have Tin Streets t deal with Crypts which are fetchable. Those may even become the new Sliver. But that is no big deal. Withered Wretch is somewhat worse, but not on its own. Nope, gy hate is not a good solution for this deck. Pithing Needle is, however.

I invite you to try this deck against Gobs with Blue instead of White. The games you have Survvial in the opening grip you should do reasonably well if your artifact creature selection isn't stupid things like Pentavus. Then tell us how you fared in games where you did not have Survival. I am guessing yo lose almost all of those. Now consider how much better having Enlightened Tutot and Swords to Plowshares over Intuition, Brainstorm, and Thirst for Knowledge would make this matchup.

In my experience, Goblins is almost a bye. White over Blue turns a very bad matchup into this, Pithing Needle or no.

Bane of the Living
11-03-2006, 05:34 PM
Bane, yard hate is not a particularly big problem for this deck. It has not been for quite some time. Personally, I have Tin Streets t deal with Crypts which are fetchable. Those may even become the new Sliver. But that is no big deal. Withered Wretch is somewhat worse, but not on its own. Nope, gy hate is not a good solution for this deck. Pithing Needle is, however.

I invite you to try this deck against Gobs with Blue instead of White. The games you have Survvial in the opening grip you should do reasonably well if your artifact creature selection isn't stupid things like Pentavus. Then tell us how you fared in games where you did not have Survival. I am guessing yo lose almost all of those. Now consider how much better having Enlightened Tutot and Swords to Plowshares over Intuition, Brainstorm, and Thirst for Knowledge would make this matchup.

In my experience, Goblins is almost a bye. White over Blue turns a very bad matchup into this, Pithing Needle or no.

Its probably worth noting Goblins plays their own Tin Streets, so they can blow up your mox, vial, or artifact land. Adding E Tutor and StP is adding 8 more cards that CotV will destroy. Something alot of goblins are picking up on.

I also like the card draw because its dependable against control decks that eat away your shit with counterspells.

I dont play Pentavus. He sucks.

Complete_Jank
11-03-2006, 06:53 PM
What many people forget about Tin-street is that he has to have green as part of his casting cost.

Thus, Vial doesn't help, and if they have a warchief on the table, you can't pay the green either. The card is ok in goblins.

Personally if they spend their turn tapping two to cast that guy, I'm in a much better situation than something else.

al the great
11-05-2006, 03:08 PM
Lol seriously I have yet to see a person in my area to use Tin Street.

I really want to run this deck it looks so fun.

Cavius The Great
11-06-2006, 09:44 AM
What many people forget about Tin-street is that he has to have green as part of his casting cost.

Thus, Vial doesn't help, and if they have a warchief on the table, you can't pay the green either. The card is ok in goblins.

Personally if they spend their turn tapping two to cast that guy, I'm in a much better situation than something else.

Why run Tin-street Hooligan in survival when you can run something like Viridian Zealot? It not only gets rid of artifacts, but enchantments too. It's also recurrable with Genesis and the mana to activate shouldn't be an issue with all the mana accelerants.

jazzykat
11-06-2006, 12:46 PM
Has anyone considered sensei's divining top. Not only is it a reusable pseudo brainstorm that helps you recover from hand rape and board destruction it is weldable.

Complete_Jank
11-06-2006, 03:55 PM
Why run Tin-street Hooligan in survival when you can run something like Viridian Zealot? It not only gets rid of artifacts, but enchantments too. It's also recurrable with Genesis and the mana to activate shouldn't be an issue with all the mana accelerants.

The only thing you will worry about in a survival deck is an artifact. Practically the only enchantments that hurt you, no creature is going to have much effect on.


Has anyone considered sensei's divining top. Not only is it a reusable pseudo brainstorm that helps you recover from hand rape and board destruction it is weldable.

It has been discussed on another forum, and one of the cool things about it is that you can activate the draw and then weld it out and still draw the card.

Cavius The Great
11-06-2006, 05:21 PM
The only thing you will worry about in a survival deck is an artifact. Practically the only enchantments that hurt you, no creature is going to have much effect on.

You're right, Humility does hurt. :wink:

Complete_Jank
11-06-2006, 10:49 PM
You're right, Humility does hurt. :wink:


Yes, that is why I run Natualizes in the board, and some people I know run them in the main.

Naturalize also fixes the little problem of Scepter Chant. Not a garuntee, but still helpful.

Finn
11-07-2006, 02:17 PM
I can't imagine a serious Goblin deck packing Chalice of the Void. But if someone is into that sort of masochism, I would gladly yield a game to him for having that much sand.

But even if you get off the Thirst, what are you going to cast if you are up against a Chalice? Seriously, the card advantage is good, naturally, but it is the classic question of aggro versus control. Can your deck run control versus aggro successfully? Can it run control versus control?

If the answers are "no" and "no", the entire color blue has no place ever. If you answered "yes" to atleast one, it may work in some metas.

My build outruns aggro consistently, and can play aggro to control. No thanks, blue.

Cavius The Great
11-07-2006, 02:32 PM
Play skill has alot to do how well you perform, when it comes to survival decks. Put a survival deck in the hands of either a pro or an experienced player, and the deck really becomes a "powerful" asset. I can see someone like Kory Witfield, an actual person I know, going undefeated in just about any big tournament with it.

Complete_Jank
11-07-2006, 03:13 PM
Play skill has alot to do how well you perform, when it comes to survival decks. Put a survival deck in the hands of either a pro or an experienced player, and the deck really becomes a "powerful" asset. I can see someone like Kory Witfield, an actual person I know, going undefeated in just about any big tournament with it.

You hit it on the nose.

There should be a thread titled:
[Discussion] Play Skill and the real reason your deck doesn't perform.


Seriously, I make mistakes way too often than I should, but since I am better than many players, they usually aren't game or match loss resulting. In large tourneys I'm a stickler for rules because I know if I get them on a game loss, it will do one to two things. Besides, I make a game rule/proceedure mistake about once every 2 years, so like never.

1. It stops the game and wins me the game preventing a chance for me to make a mistake.

2. It can put them on tilt and cause them to lose another game.


Another thing that really has to be looked at is the play style of a player. I really enjoy playing welder survival, but I feel more comfortable playing my Braids deck. I have played BHWC Landstill, and that isn't my style, even though I've played it and against it hundreds of games. However, I have a Non-Typical BUG Landstill deck that is very much my play style.


I see decks on here that aren't given much thought and think how well they'd do in a better players hands.