[Deck] Dragon Stompy [Archive]

Phantom

10-02-2006, 03:19 PM

EDIT: Here's a list by Parcher that placed well recently:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Gathan Raiders
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rakdos Pit-Dragon

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Seething Song

2 Demonfire

Sideboard

4 Pyrokenisis
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
2 Icefall
1 Trinisphere
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rakdos Pit-Dragon

Well, Tacosnape and I have been working on this deck for a while now. Basically, it's the best Faerie Stompy spin off I've ever seen, and is even better than FS in certain ways. Here goes:

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Dragon Stompy 2.0 created by Tacosnape

//Mana (26)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

(Creatures - 18)
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Bloodrock Cyclops
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Razormane Masticore
1 Arc-Slogger

(Spells - 16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Rolling Earthquake
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

SB:
3 Smash
4 Boil
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blood Moon

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Card Choices

Mana - This is all pretty standard stuff for stompy decks now except for Seething Song, which allows us to go even more broken early.

Rakdos Pit Dragon - Talk about broken. This thing allows us to pull off the elusive turn 2 kill on occasion.

Razormane Masticore - Wow. My favorite creature here. Just WRECKS aggro decks, most notably Goblins. He's either a toss a card, kill two of their creatures or a toss a card, deal five damage. Either way, a bargain. Oh, and a Squee in hand makes him all the better.

Flametongue Kavu - Could be a 4 of, but I cut back to three since they occasionally suck and I wouldn't want 2 then. Against aggro, he's an insane 2-for-1 and is a nice beater against everything else. Feel free to hit a Jitte pumped Cyclops, a Razormane Masticore, or a Squee with him if you need to get him into play.

Bloodrock Cyclops - Far and away the most contested creature in the deck, and with good reason. He's a 3/3 for 3 (already crap) and he has a drawback, but we need a 3 drop, and we need it to be red. The only other options as I see it are Dwarven Patrol, Viashano Heretic, Arc Mage, and Thoughtbound Primoc. None of them seems downright stellar, and Cyclops has been ok.

Squee, Goblin Nabob - A Jack of all trades for us, Squee can be Moxen imprint, Masticore pitch, Jitte carrier, or simply chump blocker extraordinaire.

Chalice of the Void - Like FS, we can lay it at one or two and there are not many decks in the meta that aren't crippled by it. Unlike FS, we can lay Chalice @ 3 against decks thbose decks that are hit hard by it like the Rock.

Umezawa's Jitte - You might have heard of it. I'm thinking about going 3/2 with Jitte and Sword, but I haven't tested that yet, so I'll leave it be for now.

Rolling Earthquake - Used to be Pyroclasm. RE may seem a bit slower, but we actually hit 2R about the same time we hit 1R. This way the slot isn't dead vs. Thresh and combo and can be a great Mogoose killer. There is still some speculation that Clasm might be better, but with combo on the rise, I think I'd take Earthquake to an open met tourney. That is if I could afford it.

Pyrostatic Pillar - We decided on Pillar since the deck just plows through aggro. Pillar gives us 8 dedicated anti combo slots mainboard and works well with our quick clock, high mana curve, and life gain (Jitte). Also has been nice vs. Thresh in testing.

Sideboard - Seems pretty clear. 4 slots each against the top 2 combo decks with the Crypts pulling multi duty. Smash is nice anti artifact card advantage and Blood Moon is for control.

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Matchups

Goblins: Extremely Favorable
Everything in the deck except Pillar is a problem for them.

Thresh: Favorable
Tough matchup, but I've found it to be in our favor and I think Tacosnape can back me up. A ton of cards in our deck are problematic for them and even more after boarding. They can however keep us off our threats and pull out a win.

Solidarity: Slightly favorable (Possibly even against a real master)
Chalice OR Pyrostatic is a huge slowdown for them, and on occasion you can flat out outrace them with really fast Pit-Dragon shit. Post board, Boil helps more than you think. It ups your density of massively game-swinging cards from 8 to 12, and there's a good chance that resolving only one with a decent aggro draw will be enough to save it for you. If Solidarity's a real problem, sneak a couple of Scalds in sideboard.

GK Salvagers: Incredibly Favorable.
Resist the urge to Chalice for 1. Do it for 0. Chalice for 1 doesn't even slow this deck down. They'll go Salvagers, Living Wish, LED, Orzhov Guildmage, play the Orzhov, go Infinite, and kill you. Chalice for 0 should be close to game. If not, Pyrostatic Pillar is.

Iggy Pop: Tricky, but slightly favorable.
Chalice for 0 if you're going first. Drop Pillar if you can, but don't rely on it. Crypt from the board helps a lot. Sometimes you'll just randomly get exploded on and not have a shot to do anything in this match, though.

Madness: Slightly Favorable.
It should be better on paper, but it isn't. You'll lose more than a couple Bloodrock Cyclops that randomly just walk into Wild Mongrel, and Dragon Stompy doesn't have a lot to board in against it. (I've found Blood Moon, Boil, Smash, and Crypt to all be awful here.) You will win this game from Flametongue Kavus on Arrogant Wurm/Aquamoeba, however, and even with their countermagic you've got a fair chance at winning the Jitte war.

Red Death: Even.(?)
On paper I would have said this was a heavily favored match and I'm not convinced it isn't. Chalice for 1 is so golden in this, and nailing a Negator with a Flametongue Kavu is one of the most fun things ever. Yet somehow I can't seem to consistently beat this deck. I often wind up one mana source short of being able to stabilize and turn the tables. Stupid Sinkhole. (More testing to come)

Landstill: Unfavorable.
Concede game one. Board in Blood Moon and Boil. Use Boil to bait counters so you can resolve Blood Moon. Two games in a row. Yeeeah.

Random Aggro: Mostly Incredibly Favorable
The only aggro deck I've ever had any problem with is Angel Stompy (which is clearly unfavorable). Our creature base and equipment both wreck aggro and Rolling earthquake is a gamebreaker.

Random Control: Mostly Unfavorable
Control matches fall under two categories. Either they scoop to Blood Moon or they beat Dragon Stompy. (Though you can also steal random draws with 14-point Rolling Earthquakes, heh). Dragon Stompy in its current form isn't ever going to have a -good- control match (Though it takes down random Rifter decks with Squee+Jitte), as it was designed to slaughter aggro, ag-con, and combo.

Random Combo: Mostly Favorable
We run a quick clock and some solid anti combo cards mainboard.

Eldariel

10-02-2006, 03:42 PM

Hee, looks fun! Is Seething Song really all that and then some though? Oh, and how is the casting cost of Rakdos Pit Dragon? Oh, and is there any extra combo hate you'd consider on the SB (say, Trinisphere?)? And what about the FS match-up itself? Are your sweepers too much or do you fold to Sword of Fire and Ice? How's the lack of any library manipulation working out for you; missing Thirst for Knowledge/Fact?

I like the look of the deck though, it gives away the flying for some incredible sweepers (Rolling Earthquake, I really like the card in this deck) and some pretty nutty beaters. Stoneshaker Shaman could be a funny idea as a 3-drop, combo-decks and Threshold are rarely able to tap out before they can go off so they'd be sacrificing a good number of lands. Probably a horrible card, but it looks funny in theory.

Volt

10-02-2006, 03:47 PM

Yeah, this looks pretty cool and fun! I may have to put this together and try it out.

This might be a random and stupid suggestion, but how about Stone Rain/Molten Rain/Pillage in the Bloodrock Cyclops slot?

quicksilver

10-02-2006, 03:50 PM

This deck looks a lit like ponza. You should do some searches on Ponza to get some ideas since you have the same game plan. For example ponza ran trinisphere which seems farily solid in here, although you don't have the land destruction part they do.

Tacosnape

10-02-2006, 04:04 PM

Hee, looks fun! Is Seething Song really all that and then some though?

Yes. Turn 2 Razormane Masticore destroys aggro. And this happens far more often than you might think.

Plus, Seething Song allows for the ever ridiculous turn-2 kill which I've done six times, usually against decks lacking removal or against sellout combo like Iggy Pop. This kill involves the following:

1. Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox imprinting Random Red Card, Chrome Mox imprinting Random Red Card, Rakdos Pit Dragon.

2. Mountain, Seething Song, Swing with a 10/3 Double Strike Hellbent.

This might be a random and stupid suggestion, but how about Stone Rain/Molten Rain/Pillage in the Bloodrock Cyclops slot?

No, but no suggestion is really all that random/stupid in the new/developmental forum. This deck packs no land disruption at all, and land destruction cards don't help. The only noncreature card I would consider sneaking in this deck is Control of the Court/Goblin Lore, as they're fantastic with Squee.

This slot, however, should be Bloodrock Cyclops and nothing else. He's a 3/3 that's dropped on turn 1-2 almost constantly. If a better creature with the exact cost of 2R existed, Cyclops would get replaced. But as of right now, said creature doesn't exist. The deck needs a 3-drop creature. Anything 1RR is out due to the incompatibility with Tomb/City, and Phyrexian War Beast doesn't make the cut, either, as he's not imprintable on a Chrome Mox and you can't afford the land loss with this deck ever. This makes Bloodrock Cyclops the top choice, narrowly over Shinka Gatekeeper and the 4 billion guys who aren't any bigger and can't block.

Phantom

10-02-2006, 04:53 PM

Hee, looks fun! Is Seething Song really all that and then some though?

It really is. I would go so far as to say SS is to DS as Dark Ritual is to Red Death/Deadguy. First turn Razormane's are amazing, but there are so many other uses.

Oh, and how is the casting cost of Rakdos Pit Dragon?

I was a little worried at first, but we either need to draw 2 of the 14 red sources or a single Song. Frankly, he's just too good to cut.

Oh, and is there any extra combo hate you'd consider on the SB (say, Trinisphere?)?

We had slots for 2 disruption cards and decided on Chalice and Pillar. We considered both Ankh and 3sphere in the Pillar slot, but we thought Pillar did more for us. Trini def deserves some testing, but I'm not sure it fits here.

And what about the FS match-up itself?

Lol. I haven't fully tested it, but I think it's in FS' favor. Dragon stompy does have some bombs here like Razormane, Rolling Earthquake, and the Seething Song fueled Chalice @3, but pro red and FOWs are bad for us. Still, I would guess it almost even preboard, with Binding Grasp being a bomb out of the board.

Stoneshaker Shaman could be a funny idea as a 3-drop, combo-decks and Threshold are rarely able to tap out before they can go off so they'd be sacrificing a good number of lands. Probably a horrible card, but it looks funny in theory.

The reason we're having trouble replacing Cyclops is that we need a turn one drop that can carry a Jitte turn 2 and still live (dying does us little good) so the 3 toughness is fairly big since it can swing into Mages and Confidants and Hypys and Piledrives and so on. Also, surviving a Quake for 2 is big.

Eldariel

10-02-2006, 04:58 PM

We had slots for 2 disruption cards and decided on Chalice and Pillar. We considered both Ankh and 3sphere in the Pillar slot, but we thought Pillar did more for us. Trini def deserves some testing, but I'm not sure it fits here.

I was thinking more along the lines of sideboarding additional disruption-card in Trinisphere and bringing it in for something like Squee, Earthquake or such that's decidedly mediocre in the combo MU. I definately don't suggest MDing it over either since both, Chalice and Pillar are far stronger in both, combo- and non-combo MUs, but bringing additional 3-4 hate-cards seems like it would give you a bit more solid post-board game especially since you generally want more than one resolved piece of hate since they tend to bring a variety of bounce-spells in, so you'll want to draw at least 2 different pieces generally.

Phantom

10-02-2006, 05:11 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of sideboarding additional disruption-card in Trinisphere and bringing it in for something like Squee, Earthquake or such that's decidedly mediocre in the combo MU. I definately don't suggest MDing it over either since both, Chalice and Pillar are far stronger in both, combo- and non-combo MUs, but bringing additional 3-4 hate-cards seems like it would give you a bit more solid post-board game especially since you generally want more than one resolved piece of hate since they tend to bring a variety of bounce-spells in, so you'll want to draw at least 2 different pieces generally.

Sorry, others were suggesting it mainboard and I responded to all. I would love to have some in the board that we could bring in vs Combo and possibly Thresh, but I haven't done enough board testing to say what we could cut.

As for the hand manipulation issue, it's always an issue when a deck has no real draw engine, but it hasn't killed us so far. I think we get past it by running card advantage bombs like Rolling Earthquake, FtK, Chalice, Squee (which is kind of our Trinket Mage), and even Razormane Masticore (which allows us to trade crappy hand cards for creature kill).

skirge5

10-02-2006, 05:19 PM

Since the cyclops isn't as good as it could be, couldn't you just run Phyrexian War Beast in that slot, giving you an even larger backside while not losing the 3 power?

Phantom

10-02-2006, 05:22 PM

Since the cyclops isn't as good as it could be, couldn't you just run Phyrexian War Beast in that slot, giving you an even larger backside while not losing the 3 power?

The deck needs a 3-drop creature. Anything 1RR is out due to the incompatibility with Tomb/City, and Phyrexian War Beast doesn't make the cut, either, as he's not imprintable on a Chrome Mox and you can't afford the land loss with this deck ever. This makes Bloodrock Cyclops the top choice, narrowly over Shinka Gatekeeper and the 4 billion guys who aren't any bigger and can't block.

In short, it has been tested.

Clark Kant

10-02-2006, 05:55 PM

Phantom

10-02-2006, 08:28 PM

Why not add Sword of Fire and Ice and Covetous Dragon.

If you have the mana to cast it, SOFI is better than Jitte in a deck as lacking in card draw, with Chalice and with evasive creatures like this one.

A lot of your creatures are kind of bad in comparison to Covetous Dragon anyways.

All of our creatures are kind of bad compared to Darksteel Colossus too. The only creature in this deck you can compare to Covetous Dragon is Razormane Masticore and perhaps Rakdos Pit Dragon. I would take either over Covetous. The only other creatures we run besides FtK are 3cc ans can't be replaced by a 5cc creature that can be occasionally 2-for-1'd by a disenchant/naturalize/vindicate. Still, I'll keep it in mind, although if I test it i'll prob add some artifact lands.

As for SoFI, I want to test a 3/2 split with Jitte, but there's little doubt that Jitte > Sword in this deck since we only run 3 creatures with evasion.

@ Volt: Don't you know anything? The correct knee jerk generic suggestion for this deck is Burning Wish, not Confidant. Can't believe you blew that! :)

Pinder

10-02-2006, 09:06 PM

@ Volt: Don't you know anything? The correct knee jerk generic suggestion for this deck is Burning Wish, not Confidant. Can't believe you blew that! :)

Actually, the correct knee-jerk reaction for any deck is to run 4 more Jitte. On that note, I think you should run 8 :tongue:.

Clark Kant

10-02-2006, 09:15 PM

Shadow1798

10-02-2006, 11:02 PM

This isn't meant to be a rip on the build at all, I really like what you built here and a lot of your card choices.

But why precisely would you pick Squee + Razormane over SOFI + Covetous. The ccs, the ability to pitch to Chrome Mox, everything stays the same.

The first is a very shaky combo that you have no tutoring or card draw to help you achieve. The second lets you run among two of the most efficent cards in the game.

Both serve similar roles of removal, but the second one provides card advantage and additional Jittesque beats with or without the combo.

I am also curious if the land destruction direction mentioned in the Black Stompy thread has been tested at all. Wasteland (With Mox Diamond replacing Chrome Mox) + Trinisphere/Tangle Wire + Stone Rain + Avalanche Riders can be a very powerful lock that significantly slows down most any deck.

Even without Squee, Razormane is still better in this deck then Covetous Dragom. Covetous Dragon doesn't even speed up your clock. Unblocked, they both go lethal on swing 4 (3 if equipped with pretty much anything) . It doesn't speed up your clock when you have a jitte on it. It doesn't even speed up your clock if he even ran SoFI. Why would you surrender the ability to stomp random aggro for something that doesn't even make you win faster?

Phantom

10-02-2006, 11:36 PM

But why precisely would you pick Squee + Razormane over SOFI + Covetous. The ccs, the ability to pitch to Chrome Mox, everything stays the same.

Well, let's take a look at it:

Razormane vs Covetous Dragon - They both have the same toughness, and while Covetous Dragon has a point more power, they both present the same 4 turn clock. They are both vunerable to artifact hate. Dragon has evasion, while Razormane actually picks off opponents targets. I would say they're about even to this point, but here are two reasons I think Razormane's the way to go.

1) Covetous Dragon will increase the number of mulligans we have.

2) Covetous Dragon can't be powered out early safely, especially post board. The dream scenario w/ Razormane is always Tomb+Mox or Mountain+Tomb -> Seething Song -> Razormane. Covetous Dragon can't even be played in the second scenario, and god forbid the opponent have a Disenchant/Naturalize/Vindicate in the first one. We would face the suckers end of a 3-for-1 trade.

Squee vs Sword - I can personally attest to the power of Sword from my FS days, but it's not as fantastic here. Even if we run Covetous Dragon that only brings us up to 8 evasion creatures. Squee is fantastic here pulling many duties including world's best chump blocker and fantastic Jitte carrier, usually into certain death. The biggest factor here is that I'm not about to cut 3 creatures for 3 pieces of equipment. One of the reasons this deck has a good Thresh and aggro-control matchup in general is that they are not able to keep us off our beaters.

I am also curious if the land destruction direction mentioned in the Black Stompy thread has been tested at all. Wasteland (With Mox Diamond replacing Chrome Mox) + Trinisphere/Tangle Wire + Stone Rain + Avalanche Riders can be a very powerful lock that significantly slows down most any deck

Well, off the top of my head it would look something like this:

-4 Pillars
+ 4 Trini/Tangle Wire

-4 ? (Has to be some combination of Jitte/Chalice/Rolling Earthquake)
+4 Wasteland (we can't really cut land if we are going to run Mox diamond, or cast spells)

-4 Cyclops
+4 Stone Rain (Narrow, shitty card. Wish it could be Pillage)

-3 FtK (Or pit dragon)
-1 Squee
+4 Avalanche Riders (echo sucks with Song/Tomb)

That list seems a lot worse to me. It would certainly hurt our Goblins matchup a ton.

Clark Kant

10-03-2006, 02:13 AM

Razormane isn't just as fast a clock as Covetous Dragon.

A.) Covetous Dragon has evasion. Razormane can be chump blocked. Hell, Dragon can block and kill Exalted Angel and Mystic Enforcer. Razormane causes you to run cards like Squee which lets face it, is not as good as you guys are making him out to be. 3 mana for a 1/1 is crappy, even if he comes back to your hand each turn. That just means that if you want him in play, you're going have to invest 3 mana each and every turn just to have a 1/1 in play. And the fact that sticking a Jitte on him makes him halfway decent is no great feat, any other creature is much stronger with a Jitte on it than Squee.

B.) This is a format defined by fetchlands and Force of Wills,. Even the few decks that don't run either run something like Ancient Tomb or Wretched Anurid or Psionic Blast. Your opponent usually deals himself the two points of damage. Besides, you can't look at the card in a vaccum. It's fairly easy to deal 8 points of damage with your other creatures, or equipment which makes Covetous Dragon a two turn clock as opposed to a 3 turn clock in the case of Razormane.

The reason I dislike Razormane is because of it's upkeep cost of discarding cards. Forcing a reverse Phyrexian Arena on yourself is a pretty big disadvantage any way you look at it, esp if you're facing a control or combo matchup where drawing into more disruption is critical. Having to pay 5 mana for it is esp bad. Maybe he would be decent as a sideboard option against aggro, but I wouldnt run him MD.

If you don't want to cut too many creatures by cutting Squee, run 2 Phyrexian War Beast and 2 SOFI. If you don't like War Beast run 2 Chimeric Idol and 2 SOFI (it's not like you have any instants you're going to cast at the end of your opponents turn anyways). Atleast those guys can hold back 2/2s all day long without forcing you to reinvest 3 mana each turn.

The dream scenario w/ Razormane is always Tomb+Mox or Mountain+Tomb -> Seething Song -> Razormane. Covetous Dragon can't even be played in the second scenario, and god forbid the opponent have a Disenchant/Naturalize/Vindicate in the first one. We would face the suckers end of a 3-for-1 trade.

Actually you can easily cast Covetous in the second scenario as well. All you need to do is lead with a first turn Chalice or Jitte off of your Tomb. And that's only if you don't have Chrome Mox. As for the 3-for-1 trade, that's precisely the same 3-for-1 trade you make if your opponent Disenchants/Naturalizes Razormane following you paying your upkeep cost of discarding a card.

I'm not saying Razormane isn't good against aggro. But he is pretty bad in nonaggro matchups, and even in aggro, he's comparable, and arguably worse than Covetous Dragon and SOFI combo.

raudo

10-03-2006, 03:30 AM

There must be at least one creature with MORPH which is better than cyclops for this deck? Intresting deck you have!

xsockmonkeyx

10-03-2006, 04:09 AM

There must be at least one creature with MORPH which is better than cyclops for this deck

Nope.

Hulking Ogre would probably be slightly better than cyclops. Its essentially the same thing except your not required to attack every turn and potentially lose it to a bigger blocker.

Drathro

10-03-2006, 09:37 AM

There must be at least one creature with MORPH which is better than cyclops for this deck? Intresting deck you have!
raudo has an interesting idea here. I know Ancient Tomb is already a drain on your life points, but if you can afford the extra life-loss, Zombie Cutthroat (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Zombie_Cutthroat) is essentially a 3/4 for (3). I guess you need to weigh the cost of 5 life verses the creature's immunity to Lightning Bolt. Unfortunately, it still can't trade with a threshed Werebear.

Tacosnape

10-03-2006, 12:45 PM

@Drathro: So you're saying, in essence, it's worth five life and the inability to produce red on a Chrome Mox for one more toughness and the ability to not swing? Meh.

@Quicksilver: Sellout Combo (Or Focus Combo) = Deck that just tries to destroy you as fast as humanly possible and to hell with any but the minimum disruption/control elements. It's not meant to be derogatory. It just means the deck has one mission and one mission only - combo out. Nausea, Iggy Pop, Belcher, and Burn would fall under this category, whereas GK Salvagers, Aluren, and Solidarity would be considered slower, control-combo (Or Pace Combo) decks.

@Clark: Covetous Dragon is awful. If you cut Razormane, this deck runs 12 Artifacts. That's nowhere near adequate to support Covetous Dragon. Covetous Dragon also doesn't singlehandedly win you an aggro match. Razormane Masticore does. Razormane Masticore slaughters Goblins unless they're holding an STP and you don't have a Chalice. Razormane can swing through every creature in the format, including Mystic Enforcer (Aim the 3 damage at it and then swing.) Fuelling the Razormane isn't a huge problem. If he's alive and online, he's usually the only thing you need on the board, so pitch away. If you have one of your Squees, rock on. The Razormane being chumpblocked isn't a big deal either. Razormane picks off small creatures before swinging, so if he gets chumped, chances are he picked off 2+ creatures or one really big one in the process.

As for Squee, Squee is much more solid than he appears. He's a 1/1 equipment-carrier that comes back time and time again against control decks. If unnecessary, he imprints on a Chrome Mox, and he pitches to Razormane. For what it's worth, though, I only run 2 in my build in exchange for the fourth Flametongue Kavu (And that's the only card difference at all between mine and Phantom's builds, though there have been times I missed the Squee and hated Flametongue.)

Goblin Snowman

10-03-2006, 03:09 PM

Playable cards at 2R

Blade Sliver
Brutal Deceiver
Craven Giant
Dromosaur
Flailing Ogre (you should win the mana race)
Hulking Ogre
Kavu Agressor?
Pain Kami
Rock Jockey
Rhonin Houndmaster
Thoughtbound Primoc (I love this guy, dispite the odd Meddling Mage/Bob)
Viashino Outrider

Alfred

10-03-2006, 03:12 PM

Have you considered running Drooling Ogre? You have more artifacts that any of the tier 1 decks, so opposing decks should never be able to maintain control of him. Also, Goblins would probably drop vial on the first turn, making him essentially drawbackless.

Also, Arc Slogger is pretty much better than Razormane Masticore. You can smoke an entire Goblin army, kill Werebears, and go to the dome to finish an opponent off. It's castable off of Seething Song, and you can replace the Squees. It also punishes every creature in Threshold, just like Razormane does. I was running a deck with both cards, (the Big Red deck) and found that Arc Slogger is way, way better than Masticore.

EDIT: Chimeric Idol also seems like it might be a good replacement for those Squees. It would be another artifact to maintain Drooling Ogre, and it's a 3 mana 3/3.

Phantom

10-03-2006, 03:54 PM

Eldariel

10-03-2006, 04:05 PM

Phantom

10-03-2006, 04:15 PM

Chimeric Idol is pretty much the best 3-drop artifact creature though, and with all your spells sorcery-speed, I don't see the drawback being much of a drawback; it IS totally immune to your Rolling Earthquakes (and mostly to opposing Wraths too, or sorcery-removal in general) though. What I'd consider it is the 3-drop slot of Drooling Ogre/Bloodrock Cyclops/company. You only have 4 cards that need pitches, so the red portition doesn't need to be quite as large as the blue portition of FS, which wants to support 8 pitch-cards.

I hadn't considered the dodging quake, but it's extremely difficult and mana intesive to get a Jitte on Idol, which is sort of the whole point of that slot. it's also the reason why I like the 3/3 that has to attack over the 3/3 that can't block. That first turn holiding off lacey and the like can be huge. then you drop and equip jitte and go to town.

Alfred

10-03-2006, 04:19 PM

@ Drooling Ogre: I hadn't considered it, but I don't think it would work at all. this deck already gets hit enough by common artifacts like Needle and Jitte.

@ Chimeric Idol: We're not really looking to replace Squee, especially not with non red cards.

@ Arc slogger: This has certainly been considered. In limited testing, I personally found him to be not nearly as good as Razormane, but I think Taco has done more extensive testing with him so maybe he can chime in.

@ Covetous dragon: At school today, i was trying to think of matchups where I'd rather have Dragon than Razormane and i couldn't think of one. Aggro's no contest. Control is no contest (artifact hate and deed hurt covetous more). Combo is close, but i'd rather have a 5 power that I can always cast than a 6 power I can maybe cast and might die to bounce. Razormane is also huge against the pro:red creatures that AS and FS run.

I'll bet everything I own that Arc Slogger is way, way, way better than Razormane Masticore. I mean, look at every format the two have co-existed in! In any deck that is capable of paying two red mana, Arc Slogger is always used above RM. Arc Slogger is far better than RM against Goblins, think about it, in the turn after you cast it, you can eliminate 4 of Goblins' best creatures, and that's singlehandedly. RM can only kill one, maybe two if Goblins decides to block, which is unlikely.

Arc Slogger can kill a Werebear with it's ability, RM cannot. This is important, because you don't have to engage it in combat. Arc Slogger can also end the game more quickly than RM, and later in the game can function sort of like a burn spell.

It also doesn't require you to run Squee, which is useless otherwise. And if you replace RM with Arc Slogger, then there is no reason to run Squee over, say, Chimeric Idol, because you're replacing red for colorless and colorless for red.

About Drooling Ogre, I would say that it should probably be tested, because you definately do have enough artifacts to make it's drawback a lot less relevant.

EDIT: I have also tested Arc Slogger and Razormane Masticore against the format many, many times, when I was playing with my Big Red deck, and I know for a fact that Arc Slogger is better than Razormane.

Eldariel

10-03-2006, 05:09 PM

I hadn't considered the dodging quake, but it's extremely difficult and mana intesive to get a Jitte on Idol, which is sort of the whole point of that slot. it's also the reason why I like the 3/3 that has to attack over the 3/3 that can't block. That first turn holiding off lacey and the like can be huge. then you drop and equip jitte and go to town.

Well, it costs you 2 mana each turn, so yes, it can be slightly annoying, but it's simply a matter of floating a bit and equipping. It doesn't seem like you'd have a mana shortage in that too often though. I suggest you test it at least; to me it seems like a much smaller drawback than having to attack each turn, even into 4/4s or Lackeys (when you'd really want to block).

raudo

10-04-2006, 03:48 AM

Well, if there is not any good morph creatures, how about Suq'Ata Lancer?

Tao

10-04-2006, 08:27 AM

Maybe the whole "Stompy" concept is wrong for the red version.

There is just no good 3 drop and playing crap like Squee and a 3/3 with Drawback for 3 Mana won't make a good deck.

I would see this deck in a rather controllish version without Jitte, but with Slogger, Crater Hellion, Slice and Dice and maybe something like Solemn Simulacrum.

Furthermore I think that in any version FTK should be a 4-off, since it is so awesome.

Goblin Snowman

10-04-2006, 08:36 AM

Why not P. Warbeast? Ok, so he's not good with Chrome Mox, so what?

Noisome

10-04-2006, 09:28 AM

Instead of Warbeast, why not the new Phyrexian Ironfoot? Its a 3/4 that doesn't untap until you say so for basically 1 mana and 1 snow card. Make your mountains Snow Covered and he's better than warbeast. You can attack and then untap during opponent's attack phase.

Hardly a drawback I think. I played with this deck a little, testing out the ideas posted here with my own. Here's what I have come up with:

1. I don't like Covetous Dragon. Whenever I needed a creature that could kill little guys I never got one. So I chose Razormane or the Slogger. I liked both as both had their good and their bad. Slogger can finish off an opponent pretty quickly and hit those creatures that come up unexpectedly, like the EOT lackey. But I do have to worry about running out of cards. Razormane I didn't have to pay anything to take out a horde but is a bit slow in doing so.

2. I lose creatures too quickly against some decks like R/W Aggro. Phyrexian Dreadnaught is a loser in this aspect. Ironfoot had better potential as I can attack and untap when the 2/1's swing. Chimeric Idol is bad against this deck, but is great against non-red/white decks except its hard to equip it (well not hard but I had better options. Ironfoot, for 2 mana a turn I can create vigilance on it and leave the equipment which makes for mad counter buildup on jitte). I choose Ironfoot over the other two.

3. I almost always wished I had a SoFI instead of jitte. Burn and bounce are the two worst scenarios. I wish I had protection. Got it and never lost to either.

4. I tried Hunted Dragon instead of Covetous Dragon. It may create tokens, but in reality I should be able to block them and then clean them up with EQ. I liked the hasting ability which I believe is necessary. I thought about Rathi Dragon (nonhasting), and haven't tried it, but I believe losing two lands = game over most times for this deck. I was willing to pay extra mana except I could never pay it (Rorix Bladewing). I like the haste as I can actually swing with it before I lose the creature.

5. I liked Drooling Ogre. I didn't play against too many opponents with artifacts so it was an ideal choice. A first turn ogre and a second turn attached SoFI or Jitte made him an evil monkey.

6. Pyrostatic pillar is a killer on the first turn.

7. I added Molten Influence in place of Chalice (chalice in sb) to counter sorceries and instants unless the opponent takes 4. I always used it and the opponent always took 4. Came in handy versus lots of decks, especially ones that were dedicated to bigger spells. I wouldn't replace chalice with it though. Just a test, and I liked it.

8. That's all I've tried so far. Just added my 2.5 cents.

Love,
Noisome

Clark Kant

10-04-2006, 01:36 PM

freakish777

10-04-2006, 02:19 PM

Is the 3 toughness the real selling point on the Cyclops?

If not, Craven Giant beats faster against non-aggro decks. Goblin Cavaliers is about the only 3/2 for 2R with no drawback. Also if you can pay for a 1RR creature, Cosmic Larva would be, uhm, funny I guess. Bloodscale Prowler may not be awful either.

If you somehow splash black, Sedge Troll/Sliver become options (although that means your mana base becomes a complete liability as opposed to saying, "Well atleast I have some basics").

Phyrexian Warbeast seems alright even if it doesn't work well with CMox. Losing a land drop is tough, but you've go so much mana in the deck I don't think it'll be an issue.

Along these lines, is it possible that a "mono-brown" deck with a higher land count, and with Mox Diamonds would be better? Juggs, Razormane, Warbeast, Oxxida Golem (?), Covetous Dragon, FTK, backed by Jittes/SoFIs seems like it might be better in terms of beating down as well as having a SB plan to switch to playing a more controlling game against combo (lock pieces).

Phantom

10-04-2006, 10:49 PM

Wow, lots of activity here:

Chimeric Idol is pretty much the best 3-drop artifact creature though, and with all your spells sorcery-speed, I don't see the drawback being much of a drawback; it IS totally immune to your Rolling Earthquakes (and mostly to opposing Wraths too, or sorcery-removal in general) though. What I'd consider it is the 3-drop slot of Drooling Ogre/Bloodrock Cyclops/company. You only have 4 cards that need pitches, so the red portition doesn't need to be quite as large as the blue portition of FS, which wants to support 8 pitch-cards.

Well, you know I'm not going to take anything you say lightly, so I'll try it, but when I tried War Beast here, I really hated that it didn't pitch. It sucks when you get an explosive draw with Song, Razormane, and Squee backup but you have to pitch one to a mox. Anyway, I'll test it and see how it goes.

Did a little testing with Arc-Slogger. Nothing definitive yet, but I came up with a list of pros and cons. See if I'm missing anything:

Razormane
Pros
- 5/5 First Strike is nearly impossible to kill by blocking.
- Unlimited Usage of Ability (Vs Sloggers reliance on library size)
- Puts swarm strategy's on defensive easier
- Can kill pro:red critters
- Easy to cast

Cons
- Occasionally Card Disadvantage
- Vulnerable to artifact hate and discard.

Slogger
Pros
- Pitches to mox
- Explosive Damage, including damage to face (great w/ Seething Song)
- Instant Speed removal
- Can kill a 4/4 before attacking

Cons
- More difficult for this deck to cast
- Can't hit pro:red (already a problem for this deck)
- Vulnerable to Needle (ditto)
- Limited usage on direct damage
- Beats for less
- No First Strike

Like I said, no decision yet, but that's my list so far.

Maybe the whole "Stompy" concept is wrong for the red version.

There is just no good 3 drop and playing crap like Squee and a 3/3 with Drawback for 3 Mana won't make a good deck.

I would see this deck in a rather controllish version without Jitte, but with Slogger, Crater Hellion, Slice and Dice and maybe something like Solemn Simulacrum.

Furthermore I think that in any version FTK should be a 4-off, since it is so awesome.

While I appreciate your candor, you're wrong. Or at least, I think you are. If you take a look at our data, you'll see that we're already having amazing success with the deck and we're not looking for a major overhaul. FTK is a 4 of in Taco's build, and I'm thinking about cutting a Squee for another.

Instead of Warbeast, why not the new Phyrexian Ironfoot? Its a 3/4 that doesn't untap until you say so for basically 1 mana and 1 snow card. Make your mountains Snow Covered and he's better than warbeast. You can attack and then untap during opponent's attack phase.

I like this idea, but now you've both cut the number of cards to pitch to moxen, and the number of keepable hands because now we need a mountain, as opposed to just a red source.

Is the 3 toughness the real selling point on the Cyclops?

Sadly, yes. I hope everybody is reading this. Our 3-drop has to have at least 3 power and toughness. There is solid reasoning here. We want to drop a quick beater, and attack the next turn with or without a Jitte. Either way, the creature we have is attacking unprotected into a sea of Confidants, Meddling Mages, Hypys, Warchiefs, Watchwolfs, Fanatics, Mongooses, etc. So yes, a 3/3 is a world better than a 3/2, or a 2/3. I had been considering the 2/2 with haste and bushido (Ronin Houndmaster), but there are matchups (Thresh for example) where I side out the Jittes and a 2/2 would suck. Also, getting hit by Jet, Fire, and easier Gemplams isn't insignificant.

I appreciate everyone's interest and hope some people will pick the deck up and we'll able to get some more testing results and intelligent discussion.

midnightAce

10-05-2006, 01:47 AM

There are a 3cc drop that is not being discussed here, I would like to throw it
out for some considerations.

Ember Beast 2R

Ember Beast can’t attack or block alone.

3/4

It has a slightly fatter butt than the Cyclops, can't be Bolted, and doesn't have double red in its casting cost compare to some of the other options. However, I haven't had the chance to proxying up the deck and try it out yet, so I'm not sure how relevent the drawback on the beast is. On the other hand, having 2 Ember Beast in play pretty much nullifies the drawback.

Thoughts?

JeremM

10-05-2006, 02:21 AM

raudo

10-05-2006, 03:13 AM

If you need a quick 3-drop, any reason why Suq'atuq Lancer hasn't been mentioned? It has the ability to trade with 3/3s, shrugs off 2/x, kills almost any x/1 in the format, costs 2R, and can drop turn one for some quick hits. The only considerable downsides to the Lancer are that he's rather shoddy if you're not on the offensive and is a pretty bad topdeck late-game, mostly becoming Masticore/Mox fodder.

You haven't read very carefully.. :frown: Read my post about 8 posts before. I was wondering the same thing but it was ignored. In the past Lancer was always picked to deck before cyclops.

Tao

10-05-2006, 04:35 AM

While I appreciate your candor, you're wrong. Or at least, I think you are. If you take a look at our data, you'll see that we're already having amazing success with the deck and we're not looking for a major overhaul. FTK is a 4 of in Taco's build, and I'm thinking about cutting a Squee for another.

The only creature with real quality is the Flametongue Kavu - that's why you should run 4 of them.

While synergy is always a nice thing you still need to play cards that are good on their own. Squee is a horrible, terrible, bad card if you hardcast it - I know it from playing survival. It is not even a good chump blocker or Jitte carrier. It dies with savage tempoloss, especially if you pay the 5 Mana with Ancient Tomb, to every removal in the format - even Gempalm Incinerator.

And while turn 1 Sea Drake was really impressive even without equipment a turn 1 Cyclops is nothing many decks will worry about.

So I think that the deck has some real potential but you have to find better cards for it or rethink the general strategy, maybe only slightly.

Geeba

10-05-2006, 04:43 AM

...The only considerable downsides to the Lancer are that he's rather shoddy if you're not on the offensive...

You can always consider Ronin Houndmaster if you think defense will be a problem. This one can block and kill 2/2's while staying alive.

xsockmonkeyx

10-05-2006, 05:36 AM

Im just gonna throw this out there cause its kinda random and I havent tested this deck yet. Anyway, I was going throw a pile of cards today and found a Granite Gargoyle. I had totally forgotten about that card. Its 2R, it evades, and its a pretty good blocker if you have the mana. Just another card to consider.

Oh and please change Bloodrock Cyclops to Hulking Ogre. Its slightly better.

EDIT: Theres also this dude out of TSP:

Coal Stoker 3R

Creature-Elemental

3/3

Card text: When Coal Stoker comes into play, if you played it from your hand, add RRR to your mana pool.

When I played Black Stompy I used Priest of Gix as a mana fixer and equipment carrier. I imagine this guy could do the same if you can fit him in the curve. In a perfect world its a 3/3 for 1 mana plus RRR in your pool.

Tao

10-05-2006, 07:03 AM

Oh and please change Bloodrock Cyclops to Hulking Ogre. Its strictly better.

Even if I don't like Cyclopses, this statement is just not true. Strictly would be something like Mogg Fanatic to Mon's Goblin Raiders.

But this is not true here. For example Hulking Ogre cannot block Lackey.

xsockmonkeyx

10-05-2006, 07:28 AM

Good point, I never thought about it like that.

Goblin Snowman

10-05-2006, 09:23 AM

Tao

10-05-2006, 10:16 AM

You know, Mons Goblin Raiders are superior to Fanatic if you are at one life and they Mindslaver you. Just going to say it, there is almost never a card strictly better. But Hulking Orge is better in this deck.

I don't understand this. If you start to discuss weird scenarios you can justify running Shock over Lightning Bolt or play Fetchlands that come into play tapped.

Of course Mogg Fanatic is strictly superior to Mons Goblin Raiders. In any realistic scenario.

And the ability to block a Lackey is a realistic advantage. Furthermore this deck is good at killing blockers. I never said which card is better, I just said that no card is strictly superior here.

Phantom

10-05-2006, 11:38 AM

But this is not true here. For example Hulking Ogre cannot block Lackey.

This is exactly why we run Cyclops over Hulking Ogre. Blocking the first turn is a much bigger plus to this deck than being forced to attack subsequent turns is a minus.

@Tao: I'll go -1 Squee, +1 FtK if it'll make you happy. I still think you'd be suprised at the usefulness of a hardcasted Squee in this deck.

@Lancer: I ignored the suggestion because I rejected a better card (Bushido>Flanking) and I thought that would make my answer clear. Sorry. I would never intentionally ignore someone who took the time to respond.

Goblin Snowman

10-05-2006, 12:10 PM

I don't understand this. If you start to discuss weird scenarios you can justify running Shock over Lightning Bolt or play Fetchlands that come into play tapped.

Of course Mogg Fanatic is strictly superior to Mons Goblin Raiders. In any realistic scenario.

And the ability to block a Lackey is a realistic advantage. Furthermore this deck is good at killing blockers. I never said which card is better, I just said that no card is strictly superior here.

Yeah, I just wanted to say that. The ability to not die to Werebear, which is kinda everywhere, and to avoid running into, say, a Factory, in my area, is more important than making sure I have a lackey blocker for the first turn that I play it.

Alfred

10-05-2006, 01:51 PM

The only creature with real quality is the Flametongue Kavu - that's why you should run 4 of them.

While synergy is always a nice thing you still need to play cards that are good on their own. Squee is a horrible, terrible, bad card if you hardcast it - I know it from playing survival. It is not even a good chump blocker or Jitte carrier. It dies with savage tempoloss, especially if you pay the 5 Mana with Ancient Tomb, to every removal in the format - even Gempalm Incinerator.

And while turn 1 Sea Drake was really impressive even without equipment a turn 1 Cyclops is nothing many decks will worry about.

So I think that the deck has some real potential but you have to find better cards for it or rethink the general strategy, maybe only slightly.

I've been thinking about this too. There is pretty much no reason to run Razormane Masticore and Squee above Arc-Slogger. Even if RM didn't have the discard every turn drawback, I still think that AS would be better in this format.

freakish777

10-05-2006, 01:55 PM

You know, Mons Goblin Raiders are superior to Fanatic if you are at one life and they Mindslaver you. Just going to say it, there is almost never a card strictly better. But Hulking Orge is better in this deck.

You're on crack. You sacrifice Fanatic to dome them before they gain control of your turn.

The probability of your opponent having Ivory Mask down, you being at 1 life, them getting Mindslaver off on you, and there being no legal targets besides you (you've played Steely Resolve naming Goblins and there's no non-Goblins in play?? Big WTF?!) is neglible. Besides, you should know your match-ups and be planning ahead such that when you see Ivory Mask dropped you should be sacrificing Fanatic in response.

Sorry, Mogg Fanatic is in fact better in every way than Mons's Goblin Raiders in every deck, against every deck when not in the hands of a complete tool.

Alfred

10-05-2006, 02:02 PM

Elf_Ascetic

10-05-2006, 02:28 PM

You could actually target Fanatic with itself.

Yeah, but not if he mindslavers you in his turn, you're on 1, and you (under his control) draw a Fanatic. :wink: But anyway, we're drifting of..

Coal Stoaker is an good option.

Goblin Snowman

10-05-2006, 03:17 PM

You're on crack. You sacrifice Fanatic to dome them before they gain control of your turn.

The probability of your opponent having Ivory Mask down, you being at 1 life, them getting Mindslaver off on you, and there being no legal targets besides you (you've played Steely Resolve naming Goblins and there's no non-Goblins in play?? Big WTF?!) is neglible. Besides, you should know your match-ups and be planning ahead such that when you see Ivory Mask dropped you should be sacrificing Fanatic in response.

Sorry, Mogg Fanatic is in fact better in every way than Mons's Goblin Raiders in every deck, against every deck when not in the hands of a complete tool.

It was kinda a joke.... I'm just messing with people, since there was one time, when I had tapped out to Flame Rift a guy with Fanatic in hand and he did the whole rip TKF into Slaver, Welder, kill me. But yes, if you can't get it, it is a joke about how people rate things "strictly" better.

Coal Stroker is a 4 Drop, and can suck since the deck would be missing a three drop then. It would be "ok" if we had more things at CMC 3, but with SOF&I... and Squee right now, I don't like it.

midnightAce

10-05-2006, 05:32 PM

I would never intentionally ignore someone who took the time to respond.

Lies! You totally ignored the Ember Beast suggestion.

Lol, sillyness aside. I proxied up the list and test it with Ember Beast in the spot replacing the Cyclops. The result is quite mixed. First turn Ember Beast is horrible, people who can deal with the second creature that I cast basically turns Beast into a useless permenent, can't swing, can't block, really frustrating.

However, the times that he does start swinging or blocking with friends, (usually blocking with a newly casted Core or another Ember buddy.) He can block Mongoose all day long and put up a decent fight.

Overall, I'm still not sold on what those 4 slots should be, so here is another suggestions:

Going with what you said above, I don't want to cut the Squee for the FTK, so +1 FTK, which leaves 3 slots, for those 3 slots, +2 Avatar of Discord, and then to compensate, add the 4th Squee in the last slot.

I haven't had the time to test the above configuration at the time I'm typing this, so I don't know how viable it is. But Avatar greatly increases your clock, (being a flier and all) and can trade with Exalted in an air fight. Running 2 should not impose any super card disadvantage, especially with the addition of the 4th Squee.

Then again, the Avatar bit is purely theoratical. My test result with Ember Beast is quite mixed, if anyone else have favourable results with the Beast, please let me know, may be I'm doing something wrong.

PS.
If possible, I like to see some Lightening Greaves in here, haste makes this deck | | this much better.

PPS.
On a purely random note, has anyone tried Browbeat in place of the Cyclops? LOL.

mikekelley

10-05-2006, 07:50 PM

When I was testing this, I ran 4 char in place of the rolling earthquake with some decent success. Targeted removal is something missing in this deck i think (sans razormane) and I believe it helped in a lot of situations.

Elf_Ascetic

10-06-2006, 02:30 AM

I don't think Avatar of Discord is a good option. It's triple red, and with the current manabase (4 Tombs, 4 City's), that's rather meh..

I seriously think more direct damage / spot removal is the answer here. Kill of the Goblins, Mage's and treshed Bears! Or just finish your opponent off.

Cavius The Great

10-06-2006, 08:35 AM

Have you guys considered Brimstone Dragon or are you guys looking for something cheap?

Elfrago

10-06-2006, 03:10 PM

Cathodion FTW:eek:

Phantom

10-08-2006, 12:20 AM

Lies! You totally ignored the Ember Beast suggestion.

Sorry lol. I gotta say that I don't like Ember Beast at all. We run way too few creatures to rely on 2 living and I don't like the idea of our first creature drop having to wait 2 more turns to attack.

When I was testing this, I ran 4 char in place of the rolling earthquake with some decent success. Targeted removal is something missing in this deck i think (sans razormane) and I believe it helped in a lot of situations.

Well, we also run 4 FtKs for that sort of thing. When I was testing, I never really had too much of a problem with needing targeted removal. I always liked the devastating nature of Rolling Earthquake against Zoo, Fish, Goblin, and even Thresh decks. Char's a quality card though.

I don't think Avatar of Discord is a good option. It's triple red, and with the current manabase (4 Tombs, 4 City's), that's rather meh..

Agreed.

Have you guys considered Brimstone Dragon or are you guys looking for something cheap?

Way out of our curve. Tops out at five and that spot's pretty full as is.

Cathodion FTW:eek:

Not a bad thought, but I think if I were going to go with an artifact creature in the slot, Chimeric Idol is still the frontrunner.

Speaking of, I have a crazy week, but the next chance I get I'm going to do some hardcore testing with the Cyclops/Idol and Razorman/Slogger spot in mind. I'll try to keep some tight notes too.

Djelmo

10-08-2006, 10:55 PM

I built a deck witht he same idea in mind (I've only read the first couple of posts) and I did something like this: (Not competetive, although I bet it could be somewhat)

Lands (22):
4x Sandstone Needle
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Great Furnace
10x Mountain
Creatures (24):
4x Dragon-Speaker Shaman
4x Lightning Dragon
4x Covetous Dragon
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Two-Headed Dragon
Artifacts (6):
4x Lightning Greaves - Used to be Worn Powerstone, then I realized I had enough accel and not enough useful stuff.
4x Talisman of Impulse - Probably should replace with Chrome Mox.
Other (10):
4x Incinerate
4x Earthquake
2x Seething Song - Maybe more?

Gets nice openings, usually wipping out a turn 3-4 Two-Headed/Covetous Dragon.

Phantom

10-11-2006, 12:18 AM

So I finally got to do some testing vs Bardo's Thresh list. Last time, I went 60/40 with them which had disagreed with what Tacosnape had found. This time I went 17-3! Unreal. I kept some notes on the first ten games (all pre-board) and kept a careful eye on the Cyclops/Idol and Razorman/Slogger spots.

Game 1: If you get down a double Pillar and Thresh isn't winning, they're in trouble. If you can then get an active Jitte, even better (note - A lot of times vs Thresh you will only get one swing in with a Jitte before it gets needled. It sucks, but the four point lifegain can be huge with Quake/Pillar/Tomb).
Game 2: Double Striking Pit Dragon does 12, then throws a Jitte on...
Game 3: Too many creatures vs. a slow Threshold draw. Killed two bears and a goose pre Thresh with a Quake.
Game 4: Razormane with Pillar backup is nice.
Game 5: A little mana screw, but Quake followed by Pillar, followed by Cyclops does it.
Game 6: Razormane first turn. Jitte second.
Game 7: Chalice @1 meets FoW. Next turn, Chalice @1.
Game 8: Mystic Enforcer flys over my two FtKs. Gah, a LOSS!
Game 9: Chalice @1 turn 1.
Game 10: Late game Chalice with 2 Ftk's to answer 2 Bears.

The other 10 games were played post board and I was playing Thresh so I don't have notes. Here are my notes on the debated slots:

Game one: Cyclops > Idol because he was holding a Needle and could have slowed me down till he hit Thresh. Instead, he had to start digging for answers.
Game three: Razormane > Slogger b/c two Mongooses back to block.
Game four: Cycloops slightly better than Idol b/c I attacked multiple turns with Jitte and would have had to tie up my mana to re-equip it.
Game four: Razormane >>> Slogger because I didn't have RR.
Game six: Slogger > Razormane because I drew 2 Razormanes. Note that Razormane did go on to win the game.
Game nine: Cyclops > Idol because it pitched to mox allowing me to pay the daze backup.

Note that Cyclops so called "drawback" came into play a whopping 0 times. I never once attacked into a Threshed Goose or Bear. Also, I never once killed my own Cyclops with a Quake (the other benefit of Idol is to dodge quakes). I did kill my own Dragon once, but that was after I attacked and the quake killed both his bears and brought his life down to one with a Pillar out leaving him one out in the deck (Enforcer).

The Razormane/Slogger battle was a tad closer and still deserves some more testing.

Tacosnape

10-11-2006, 02:53 AM

On a purely random note, has anyone tried Browbeat in place of the Cyclops? LOL.

You should have children, male ones, so I can punch them in the testicles everytime they have a birthday for suggesting this.

Two points about Browbeat. Take notes, world.

Point #1. There is no deck in existence, in any format, nor will there ever be one, where Browbeat (or any card that gives the opponent the final choice) is optimal anywhere in the span of a 75 card maindeck/sideboard.

Point #2. If there was such a deck, there's no way in hell it's this one.

As for Slogger, I'm running 1. I got talked into it by having too many triple Razormane draws. Props to whoever suggested it. But one and no more. I don't think I like less than 4 Kavus, so I cut back to 3 Razormanes and added one Slogger. The lone Slogger here would sort of be in for the same reason Red Death has that single Wretched Anurid. Sometimes 4 of a drawback creature is just a little too much.

Note that if you only draw one, Razormane >>> Slogger almost constantly, the exception being if your opponent's holding, say, Disenchant. Razormane will win more battles for you by randomly picking off Silver Knight than he will lose to Disenchant, though.

I'm amused how nobody realizes just how good Cyclops is. You have to play the deck a good while to realize it. He's way better than anything with the same cost that could go in his slot, and Hulking Ogre will never replace him, as Hulking Ogre isn't even the best choice to do so.

smeagol

10-11-2006, 06:51 AM

Nice deck idea.

Some more ideas for the debated Cyclops slot:

- Barbarian Bully (very suboptimal, but with multiple Squees... might at least be worth a try...)
- Brassclaw Orcs (meh... but the Orc has 3 power and can block that random Lackey)
- Defender of Chaos (has at least Protection from Plowshares)
- Dwarven Vigilantes (nice vs. Dark Confidants, Meddling Mages and company, the opponent is forced to block with them and trade 1 on 1 or just get their dudes killed by the dwarves - drawback: only 2/2, but the ability seems really nice in theory)
- Fire Imp (small Flametongue Kavu, 2 damage won't kill any Werebears though. Probably a stinker ouside of the Goblin Matchup)
- Ghitu Slinger (Echo sucks, but otherwise quite solid)
- Granite Gargoyle (!!! adds more evasion to the deck and is a very solid blocker in the mid- and lategame)
- Krark-Clan Grunt (random Grey Ogre that can eat Chrome Moxes for extra damage if necessary, can kill threshholded mongeese!)

jamest

10-11-2006, 10:59 AM

Nice deck guys. I did some quick testing against Goblins (6 games preboard) and it feels about 50/50. Far and away, your most important card in that matchup is Rolling Earthquake. It allows you to survive into the midgame and shuts off Incinerator. Without it, Goblins is stronger in nearly every way. They have superior speed, removal (creature and artifact), draw engine, and they have mana denial which cripples this deck.

Also, Pit Dragon is a badass. Absolutely sick damage potential.

Dr.ugs

10-11-2006, 12:17 PM

I would just like to add that I think that none of the 5 million suggestions on Cyclops Slot were better than Cyclops himself.

I am also testing this Deck with the only difference that I made some room for some more Disruption (aka Trinisphere,Stone Rain instead of Pillar and some other Cards and Avalanche Rider).

@Phantom and Taoscope: Whats your opinion on thoose Cards and did you test a more disruptive version

Phantom

10-11-2006, 01:07 PM

Nice deck guys. I did some quick testing against Goblins (6 games preboard) and it feels about 50/50.

If you're only going 50/50 with Goblins preboard, then you need to do some more testing. This deck wrecks Goblins at least 70/30 (and that was a version running multiple Holligans). Also, the MVP of this matchup isn't Quake (although it's fantastic) it's Razormane. Thanks for testing out the deck and good luck with it!

Some more ideas for the debated Cyclops slot:

We've pretty much reviewed all the ideas for the Cyclops spot and come to the conclusion that Cyclops is the best. Thanks for the reply though.

As for Slogger, I'm running 1.

Done and done.

I am also testing this Deck with the only difference that I made some room for some more Disruption (aka Trinisphere,Stone Rain instead of Pillar and some other Cards and Avalanche Rider).

@Phantom and Taoscope: Whats your opinion on those Cards and did you test a more disruptive version

We once had a list of 4 disruption cards for 2 spots. Chalice, Pillar, 3sphere, and Ankh. We did some testing and decided that Chalice and Pillar were the way to go. 3sphere is a quality card, but it really needs a deck built around it. It will force you to start replacing good cards with crappy ones like Stone Rain and Avalanche Riders and you would certainly have to fuck with the manabase to fit in Wasteland. Worth it? I think not. Also note that all of those cards are complete shit vs. Goblins.

@ Browbeat: It's a bad idea, but don't feel bad about the suggestion. It was one of my first suggestions too. If you pick up the deck and play a little, you'll realize it has no place here (extra bad synergy with Pillar). There might be a more burnish version of this deck out there with Ankh instead of Chalice, and a bunch of haste creatures, but I'm pretty sure it would be poor.

Alfred

10-11-2006, 01:53 PM

If you're only going 50/50 with Goblins preboard, then you need to do some more testing. This deck wrecks Goblins at least 70/30 (and that was a version running multiple Holligans). Also, the MVP of this matchup isn't Quake (although it's fantastic) it's Razormane. Thanks for testing out the deck and good luck with it!

Why do you feel that Razormane Masticore + Squee is better than Arc-Slogger?

EDIT:

As for Slogger, I'm running 1. I got talked into it by having too many triple Razormane draws. Props to whoever suggested it. But one and no more. I don't think I like less than 4 Kavus, so I cut back to 3 Razormanes and added one Slogger. The lone Slogger here would sort of be in for the same reason Red Death has that single Wretched Anurid. Sometimes 4 of a drawback creature is just a little too much.

Note that if you only draw one, Razormane >>> Slogger almost constantly, the exception being if your opponent's holding, say, Disenchant. Razormane will win more battles for you by randomly picking off Silver Knight than he will lose to Disenchant, though.

So now you are running 3 Squees for 3 Razormane Masticores? Hmmm... It seems like you risk drawing into Squees without the Masticores, which is probably bad news for you.

Also, are Silver Knights the only reason that Razormane is better than Slogger? Because I have found that against both Threshold and Goblins that Slogger's ability is much more useful than RM's one, and the extra 1 point of Power and First Strike were pretty meaningless. The ability to remove a Werebear or multiple goblins in a single turn seems a bit better to me.

Phantom

10-11-2006, 02:31 PM

Why do you feel that Razormane Masticore + Squee is better than Arc-Slogger?

I assume you're talking about the Goblins matchup. Really, Squee isn't even needed but it certainly is nice. They are both great cards vs Goblins but there are a few reasons I like Razormane better here:

1) Thanks to Ringleader, Goblins can swarm and swarm and keep swarming. Sloggers ability can realistically only be used to kill 4 Goblins which isn't always going to stop them or put them on the defensive (especially vs. multiple Vials). Razormane's ability is unlimited.

2) Slogger can be killed by gang blocking. This is especially relevant since Goblins can Vial in a blocker when your red mana is tapped out.

3) Slogger's ability eats mana (note that this was the reason we cut Masticore for Razormane) occasionally preventing us from casting other spells. Very frustrating with Jitte.

4) Slogger can be needled. This is probably cancelled out by the fact that Razormane can be Disenchanted.

Still, I'm not discounting Slogger completely and now I'll be playing with one mainboard and will be better able to evaluate all the pros and cons.

Alfred

10-11-2006, 02:45 PM

I assume you're talking about the Goblins matchup. Really, Squee isn't even needed but it certainly is nice. They are both great cards vs Goblins but there are a few reasons I like Razormane better here:

1) Thanks to Ringleader, Goblins can swarm and swarm and keep swarming. Sloggers ability can realistically only be used to kill 4 Goblins which isn't always going to stop them or put them on the defensive (especially vs. multiple Vials). Razormane's ability is unlimited.

2) Slogger can be killed by gang blocking. This is especially relevant since Goblins can Vial in a blocker when your red mana is tapped out.

3) Slogger's ability eats mana (note that this was the reason we cut Masticore for Razormane) occasionally preventing us from casting other spells. Very frustrating with Jitte.

4) Slogger can be needled. This is probably cancelled out by the fact that Razormane can be Disenchanted.

Still, I'm not discounting Slogger completely and now I'll be playing with one mainboard and will be better able to evaluate all the pros and cons.

Razormane Masticore requires you to run suboptimal cards in order for it to be good, otherwise, why even add Squees at all? Squees are almost completely useless, and a point for Slogger is the fact that you can squeeze (pun intended) even more disruption or threats into the deck than a version with Masticore.

Goblins can swarm and keep swarming, but if you can eliminate up to 4 goblins at once and swing in with Slogger, you're closer to winning the game. Also, Razormane Masticore can eliminate a single goblin the turn after it comes into play, where Big Slogs can demolish their entire board, which is useful if you're about to die.

Also, Slogger can't be killed by gang blocking, because their blockers will be dead before you swing in, the only surprise that could conceivably kill a Slogger is when you have totally tapped your red out, and they have a vial set to 5.

Also, Jitte's equip ability costs 2 colorless, which means that you can use 8 of your colorless-only lands to equip it, and save the rest for Slogging.

Lastly, though RM has the extra point of Power, Arc-Slogger can actually end the game faster than RM, and usually does so at the same speed, i.e. they are at 18, you attack 4 times and Slog once. Or, they are at 20, attack 3 times and Slog 4 times where it's actually faster.

As I said before, I tested both, and I found that Arc-Slogger is way better against the current metagame than RM. I'm going to be testing this list to see if it's any different, which I don't really expect it to be.

Phantom

10-11-2006, 03:11 PM

Goblins can swarm and keep swarming, but if you can eliminate up to 4 goblins at once and swing in with Slogger, you're closer to winning the game. Also, Razormane Masticore can eliminate a single goblin the turn after it comes into play, where Big Slogs can demolish their entire board, which is useful if you're about to die.

See this is where it's useful to talk about this particular deck as opposed to Slogger vs. Razormane in general. We can hardly ever eliminate 4 Goblins at once. We'll be lucky to eliminate 2 Goblins at once. This deck runs 14 red sources and often has trouble getting to 2 red sorces.

Also, Slogger can't be killed by gang blocking, because their blockers will be dead before you swing in, the only surprise that could conceivably kill a Slogger is when you have totally tapped your red out, and they have a vial set to 5.

They have 4 Goblins and a Vial out, we have one or two red sources. There's a good chance Slogger can go down if blocked by the 2-3 remaining Goblins and a Vialed in green man. And if you choose not to attack, you're just playing into their hands.

Also, Jitte's equip ability costs 2 colorless, which means that you can use 8 of your colorless-only lands to equip it, and save the rest for Slogging.

I was talking about playing and equipping a Jitte. If this is slowed down even one turn it can be very frustrating.

Lastly, though RM has the extra point of Power, Arc-Slogger can actually end the game faster than RM, and usually does so at the same speed, i.e. they are at 18, you attack 4 times and Slog once. Or, they are at 20, attack 3 times and Slog 4 times where it's actually faster.

This is actually where I really like Slogger (vs. Combo). Combined with the nastyness that is Seething Song.

As I said before, I tested both, and I found that Arc-Slogger is way better against the current metagame than RM. I'm going to be testing this list to see if it's any different

Glad to hear it. Try a 2/2 Slogger/Razormane split and test against Tier 1. I'm sure you won't be dissapointed. Also, notice the awesomeness that is Squee in this deck.

jamest

10-11-2006, 03:19 PM

Alfred

10-11-2006, 03:29 PM

See this is where it's useful to talk about this particular deck as opposed to Slogger vs. Razormane in general. We can hardly ever eliminate 4 Goblins at once. We'll be lucky to eliminate 2 Goblins at once. This deck runs 14 red sources and often has trouble getting to 2 red sorces.

With 14 red sources, 2 red mana should not be a problem to get to by turn 3 or 4, which should be just fine for Slogger. Also, isn't eliminating 2 goblins a turn better than eliminating 1 goblin a turn? Especially when you note that you aren't losing a card a turn against a deck you want to be blocking.

Tacosnape

10-11-2006, 03:35 PM

So now you are running 3 Squees for 3 Razormane Masticores? Hmmm... It seems like you risk drawing into Squees without the Masticores, which is probably bad news for you.

No, I'm running 2 Squees for 3 Razormane Masticores. There's a difference. I run the fourth Kavu over the third Squee.

You also seem to be completely incapable of grasping the fact that Squee is not a useless card outside of Razormane Masticore. He's an overpriced 1/1, but he comes back. He'll power that topdecked Chrome Mox if you need to get a big guy out. He'll pick up a Jitte. He'll chumpblock a Werebear/Mongoose until you draw a solution. He'll come back against removal when you're a threat away.

If you're still worried about Squee being utterly useless, try squeaking two copies of Fling into this deck. I've had a lot of luck with it in random testing. It can throw Squee, throw a Razormane you can't pay for, throw a Cyclops into something enormous that it couldn't quite take down, and throw a creature your Kavu's trigger targets when your opponent doesn't have any creatures. I'm not sure I'm ready to recommend it for the decklist yet, but I'm having fun with it.

Razormane without Quake is dead meat. My Goblin build runs 13 maindeck ways to kill Razormane (4 Hooligan, 1 Tinkerer, 4 Incinerator, 4 Matron) and that's before considering what Ringleader draws into.

This makes you a very unique goblin deck, as most don't run five artifact-killing goblins. Most run about two. Furthermore, Tinkerer doesn't count. Tinkerer is the most garbage card in existence and unless you keep a warchief alive against this deck, it won't kill Razormane before Razormane kills it. Against Goblins is really where I like Pyroclasm over Rolling Earthquake, as it makes Goblins all the more of an autowin. Pyroclasm allows you to still win on a slow opening. But Quake is better against almost everything else and Phantom talked me into running it.

Also, you'll rarely kill a Razormane with an Incinerator. Razormanes tend to come down on turn 2-3, and you can't get five goblins down that fast, and you'll struggle to get four and a fanatic.

Slogger is worse than Razormane against goblins, also. Slogger can't usually block a Piledriver the turn after it comes out and live. Razormane can. Razormane also doesn't tie up your mana where Slogger does.

Alfred

10-11-2006, 03:57 PM

No, I'm running 2 Squees for 3 Razormane Masticores. There's a difference. I run the fourth Kavu over the third Squee.

You also seem to be completely incapable of grasping the fact that Squee is not a useless card outside of Razormane Masticore. He's an overpriced 1/1, but he comes back. He'll power that topdecked Chrome Mox if you need to get a big guy out. He'll pick up a Jitte. He'll chumpblock a Werebear/Mongoose until you draw a solution. He'll come back against removal when you're a threat away.

The only thing that I see Squee doing other than making Razormane Masticore better is it's ability to pick up a Jitte, which is true for any other creature. If you're talking about coming back against Werebear or Mongoose, I think the better option would be to run a creature in it's spot that just flat-out beats those creatures, rather than running a glorified chump blocker.

If you're still worried about Squee being utterly useless, try squeaking two copies of Fling into this deck. I've had a lot of luck with it in random testing. It can throw Squee, throw a Razormane you can't pay for, throw a Cyclops into something enormous that it couldn't quite take down, and throw a creature your Kavu's trigger targets when your opponent doesn't have any creatures. I'm not sure I'm ready to recommend it for the decklist yet, but I'm having fun with it.

I'm pretty sure that the best recommendation for running Slogger over Razormane Masticore is it's application in other formats. Look at Extended, Standard and Block, where they were both legal. Slogger has been used above Masticore, essentially any deck that had access to red mana has used Slogger over Masticore, and I definately think that 14 red sources is enough to support Slogger comfortably.

Eldariel

10-11-2006, 04:22 PM

smeagol

10-11-2006, 04:55 PM

To address the Razormane // Slogger debate:
Honestly, which deck really plays that much Artifact Hate at the moment?

- Threshhold? nope
- Goblins? hmm... some Tin Street Boys maybe
- Landstill? well... if you count Nevi Disk
- Deadguy? yeah Vindicate... but that also hits non artifact creatures
- Solidarity? good joke...

Therefore I think the whole argument about being an Artifact creature or not is mostly void. Thus you can see Masticore as a "discard a card" drawback creature, which is absolutely fine for what it does (btw.: has the original Masticore even be considered for the deck?). The 2/2 or 3/1 setup of RM and Slogger seems fine. I wouldn't cut the Masticore, the First Strike simply is huge, not even a thresholded Mystic Enforcer can block it (after you have shot him obviously)... nevermind Goblins having a lot of trouble getting rid of it, when they don't have access to the Tin Street dudes.

@ Eldariels playtesting: Guess Goblins still get the nuts draw. ;) Nevermind, the deck seems strong enough though to beat Goblins on a regular basis, especially if the sideboard packs more cheap Creature Hate (i.e. Pyroclasm).
As for the other Matchups: yeah, BGW preboard eats Dragon Stompy for breakfast. The only way to beat it is probably to disrupt its very fragile manabase via Blood Moon.

Some more thoughts:
- How necessary are the City of Traitors? I know, a 2 mana land is huge for explosive starts, but lacking the power of Sea Drake, that had nice synergy with the City, makes me wonder if there aren't better options (maybe these are the Slots to be turned into Wastelands?).
- Maindeck Pillar? Seems a lot like a win more card to me outside the combo matchup. At least it does very little if you're behind in board position.
- 4 FTK seem a lot, considering they are often dead in your hand (shooting Mongeese is no option... and versus Landstill//Solidarity//other creatureless decks they do absolutely nothing). I know it's hard to cut any of them, but maybe this is the way to go?
- I really liked the idea of combining Squee with Goblin Lore, maybe some Fiery Tempers could be a nice addition (also good synergy with Masticore discard), giving the deck some more reach.

I'm really interested in developing this deck, as I always liked the Big Red decks of Mirrodin Block times. Thanks for reviving this idea for Legacy. :D

Phantom

10-11-2006, 05:47 PM

Mmm, I was playing against Smart Goblins with very disappointing results. StP is huge (no, I didn't manage a Chalice) as the deck usually only gets a fatto or two. I got 2-0d in short order, first game by losing my turn 2 Arc-Slogger to StP and drawing no creatures other than Squee (no Jitte), Rolling Earthquake his double Warchief to prevent them from doing me in only to get only to get overrun by a Matron into Ringleader into SGC-sequence. Game 2 I drop a turn 1 Chalice, but he Wastelands and I can't drop my Razormane before off 2 Tombs and he alphas me by Matron-Piledriver-Piledriver with Chief in play. Now, this seems really annoying to me, the expensive creatures are really tough to cast without Songs and the Tomb-damage adds up. Also, Pillar is frustrating. I'll of course play more games, but that was pretty disheartening.

Yeah, that is strange. I actually haven't tested vs the White splash as much. I tested vs. mono red because that was the most popular at the time, and vs. the green splash because I thought that would be our worst matchup (tutorable Disenchants > Disenchants). I had great results against the green splash boarding in Blood Moon as well as Smash. I assume it will work great vs. the White Splash as well seeing as it completely cuts the off from Disenchant and StP.

I will try to do some more testing vs. the white splash as it seems to be the most popular build these days.

As for the control matchup, it's not suprising at all. You pretty much have to hope that Blood Moon or Chalice destroys their deck. Against GBW, Chalice @ 3 can be killer, but is often tough to get to.

(btw.: has the original Masticore even be considered for the deck?).

My original build ran 4 of both masticores and 4 Squees. It was a little too much and the original Masticores were too mana intensive.

- How necessary are the City of Traitors? I know, a 2 mana land is huge for explosive starts, but lacking the power of Sea Drake, that had nice synergy with the City, makes me wonder if there aren't better options (maybe these are the Slots to be turned into Wastelands?).
- Maindeck Pillar? Seems a lot like a win more card to me outside the combo matchup. At least it does very little if you're behind in board position.
- 4 FTK seem a lot, considering they are often dead in your hand (shooting Mongeese is no option... and versus Landstill//Solidarity//other creatureless decks they do absolutely nothing). I know it's hard to cut any of them, but maybe this is the way to go?
- I really liked the idea of combining Squee with Goblin Lore, maybe some Fiery Tempers could be a nice addition (also good synergy with Masticore discard), giving the deck some more reach.

@ City - Very necessary. I usually prefer them to Tombs even though they're often a tad slower (have to lay a mountain first)
@ Maindeck Pillar - It actually started in the board, but made it to the maindeck. It is aminly there for combo, but it does hurt every deck to some degree, and screws over 2/3 of the tier one decks. Basically, it's sort of a "this deck already beats down aggro, let's get some slots that improve other matchups". You find a card that's better in the slot, let us know, but I'm still loving Pillar. Hell, it's even won some goblin games for me when they didn't draw Vial.
@ 4FtK - I was on board with you till I cut down to three. I missed the spot removal and am back up to four. Luckily, it's not completely dead against non combo decks. You can target anything with an active Jitte on it, Razormanes, or lowly Squees.
@ Lore/Temper - I really don't like Fiery Temper (why do I need removal when I have a Razormane out?) but I'll admit it has synergy here. I've never tested Goblin Lore, but I'm not crazy about the randomness or the lack of card advantage (We only run 2 Squee's, and they often get pitched to Mox).

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

Alfred

10-11-2006, 10:31 PM

To address the Razormane // Slogger debate:
Honestly, which deck really plays that much Artifact Hate at the moment?

- Threshhold? nope
- Goblins? hmm... some Tin Street Boys maybe
- Landstill? well... if you count Nevi Disk
- Deadguy? yeah Vindicate... but that also hits non artifact creatures
- Solidarity? good joke...

Therefore I think the whole argument about being an Artifact creature or not is mostly void. Thus you can see Masticore as a "discard a card" drawback creature, which is absolutely fine for what it does (btw.: has the original Masticore even be considered for the deck?). The 2/2 or 3/1 setup of RM and Slogger seems fine. I wouldn't cut the Masticore, the First Strike simply is huge, not even a thresholded Mystic Enforcer can block it (after you have shot him obviously)... nevermind Goblins having a lot of trouble getting rid of it, when they don't have access to the Tin Street dudes.

You may think that Masticore's discard downside is "just fine", but it obviously is a negative when comparing two cards. Also, Mystic Enforcer will die before it even has the chance to block a Arc-Slogger. And I don't think that the Artifact hate point is that fair, and even so, Goblins usually runs a tutorable artifact killing goblin, and Threshold runs Naturalize/Disenchant out of the board, so it's not as irrelevant as you might think.

I'm also thinking that First Strike isn't as great as you think it is. Sure, it's good in double-blocking scenarios, but so is the ability to kill essentially every targetted creature before they have the ability to do so! Arc-Slogger is a frigging BOMB. That was what Big Red in Standard and Extended were all about. If you could get it into play early, it absolutely fucks aggressive and control opponents up. It's a 3 turn clock that clears chump blockers out of the way while you hit them in the head for only 5 mana. I don't think it's a coincidence that every red deck in any other constructed format picks Arc-Slogger over and above Razormane Masticore.

The only reason I could see running RM over Slogger is when there is something good to be gained from discarding cards, or if you can't run red mana.

I also just realized that DISCARD can kill your Razormane Masticore, so add that to the list of reasons why Slogger is better. Running 2 Squees doesn't shore that up enough for my tastes. And when a fucking Hymn to Tourach turns into a Ancestral Recall, I really think that Arc Slogger is just better in almost every concievable way.

Phantom

10-12-2006, 11:13 AM

Did that testing against White Splash Goblins. Was a tad worried because at one point I was 3-3, but ended up 10-4.

Game 1: Mana Screw.
0-1
Game 2: Early Cyclops puts on a nice clock. Then Song into Slogger finishes it (only had one red source though).
1-1
Game 3: Lackey -> SGC.
1-2
Game 4: Quake early. Razormane + Jitte late.
2-2
Game 5: Double striking Dragon with a Jitte on.
3-2
Game 6: Mana flood and only drew one threat. Gah.
3-3
Game 7: Lead with Chalice @1. Then drop Razormane turn 3 (again, I had only one red source).
4-3
Game 8: 3 FtK's.
5-3
Game 9: Cyclops + Dragon + 2 Quakes.
6-3
Game 10: Razormane + Quake (this was the one game when I wish it was Slogger as I had 2 and would like to have pitched one to mox).
7-3
Game 11: Slogger almost loses this one for me thanks to it's limit (I remove 40 cards and the Goblins keep on coming) but a Dragon comes and saves the day.
8-3
Game 12: I drop a Cyclops which gets Gemplamed and my City gets wasted. I never see another land.
8-4
Game 13: I pull off the elusive turn 2 win. Sweet Jesus does it feel sweet!
9-4
Game 14: Tough game where he somehow draws 3 StP. Squee was amazing here blocking Goblins left and right with a Jitte on. Finally, a Quake comes and a 5/5 Squee starts a-swingin'.
10-4

Sadly I had to quit before we got in the full 20, but I feel a lot better about the Rw Goblins match now.

Eldariel

10-12-2006, 11:50 AM

I just barely pulled another game out of goblins, but only because he didn't know the fact that Fanatic>Jitte. I was at 1 life (third game of the match) and his topcard was SGC with Vial at 5 and 8 lands in play, so I was positively 1 turn away from dying too. Did the list MD StP or Disenchant? That probably makes a difference, I'd assume.

jamest

10-12-2006, 12:28 PM

Six more test games.

G1: gain control with early quake and razormane. goblins at 4 life, ringleader into hooligan, and goblins wins next turn with warchief, matron for piledriver, incinerate dragon.
0-1
G2: close race. goblins must simply overextend into possible quakes when this deck has board position. incinerators take out dragon and the rest of the goblin army overwhelms kavu.
0-2
G3: bait overextension with quake while stuck on 4 mana with razormanes in hand. sweep when goblins has ringleader driver matron out, but tomb is wastelanded. next turn warchief. cyclops. driver hooligan, cyclops chumps driver, wastelands city.
0-3
G4: hooligan on razormane. kavus make poor blockers or attackers.
0-4
G5: early double cyclops holds off lackey. quake followed by dragon ends it.
1-4
G6: mull to 5. hmm razormane or kavu first? I go with razormane. gets goblins down to 5, when goblins rips a green source with 3 hooligans in hand. squee is a good chumper blocker in the meantime. rip razormane, but there are enough goblins for incinerator.
1-5

Hooligan is house in this matchup with so many key targets i.e. Mox, Chalice, Razormane, Jitte.

Phantom

10-12-2006, 03:05 PM

Hooligan is house in this matchup with so many key targets i.e. Mox, Chalice, Razormane, Jitte.

I wouldn't worry about this too much. Very few Goblin decks are splashing green these days (I would guess less than 10%) and we have an answer post board. Also, i've never seen a competetive build that ran both Hooligan and tinkerer.

@Eladriel: The list I was testing against maindecked StP but not disenchant. I figured that was probably the most common build. I'm concerned that we're having different results in testing. I would love to test with you sometime on MWS, but for some reason my MWS only lets me play in about 1 out of every 10 games i sign into. bleh.

Grim

10-12-2006, 09:26 PM

Wow, just proxied this shit up. Amazing how good this is. Besides Pyrostatic Pillar, what's being run disruption wise? Or is it not needed because of how blisteringly fast this deck is? Nice stompy variant. Better than Sea Spirit Stompy or whatever it was.

Dr.ugs

10-15-2006, 07:23 AM

We once had a list of 4 disruption cards for 2 spots. Chalice, Pillar, 3sphere, and Ankh. We did some testing and decided that Chalice and Pillar were the way to go. 3sphere is a quality card, but it really needs a deck built around it. It will force you to start replacing good cards with crappy ones like Stone Rain and Avalanche Riders and you would certainly have to fuck with the manabase to fit in Wasteland. Worth it? I think not. Also note that all of those cards are complete shit vs. Goblins.

Trinisphere is just equal to Pillar.Its good in early Game and medicore in lategame.Its as good against Combo and Control while beeing better against Aggro.Thats good enough to think about it and I am talking about Trinisphere without any Cards to support it.If you would additionaly run cards like Wasteland,Stone Rain or Riders it would even get better.Not to mention that you do have some cards which are good with Trinisphere anyway(Chalice and your Creatures)

Also you sad that all of the Cards are completly shit against goblins.But Trinisphere is a house against Goblins if they don´t have a Vial out.

Riders and Stone Rain can also get rid of their Rishadan Ports which can be really nasty because they can shut down your "double" lands.It is also usefull when you kill their White(or Green) producing lands so they arent able to cast StP for a while.The game against Goblins is a race ,in my opinion, and Riders can either deal or prevent 2 important damage and trade with a goblin.

The thing is you can use some of these Cards while making your good matchups worse but tweaking the bad ones.

Tao

10-22-2006, 07:25 PM

How about Godo, Bandit Warlord? Just an idea. Lets you search a Jitte or a single SoFaI.

Complete_Jank

10-23-2006, 06:44 PM

Phantom

10-23-2006, 09:32 PM

I have designed a Dragon Stompy Deck, however it ran Burning Shoal. Try that.

Also, I don't believe all your match-ups for one reason and one reason alone...You don't have card advantage.

If I missed anything and/or my comments hold no water, then forgive me, I am almost technically blind.

Let's break this down. There is no card named Burning Shoal. I'm assuming you mean Blazing Shoal, which is just a terrible card. I'm not paying 2 cards to do a conditional 2-4 damage. I'd much rather run Char, which we don't even run.

This deck is PACKED with card advantage. FtK, Rolling earthquake, Chalice, Squee, Jitte, Smash... do I need to go on?

If you want to question my testing then fine, people used to question it over on the FS thread...until it started T8ing. I never claim my testing is gospel. Especially in this case where only two individuals have tested.

I did a little bit of testing vs. Faerie Stompy. I doubt the matchup matters, but it's a lot of fun to play. Both decks have bombs, but FS' won out in the end (going about 60/40 blue). FoW, Pro:Red, Flying, and SoFI are all big plays for blue while red counters with it's creature removal (FtK and Quake are huuuge if no pre:red) and the game clinching Chalce @3.

Complete_Jank

10-24-2006, 04:05 PM

Let's break this down. There is no card named Burning Shoal. I'm assuming you mean Blazing Shoal, which is just a terrible card. I'm not paying 2 cards to do a conditional 2-4 damage. I'd much rather run Char, which we don't even run.

This deck is PACKED with card advantage. FtK, Rolling earthquake, Chalice, Squee, Jitte, Smash... do I need to go on?

If you want to question my testing then fine, people used to question it over on the FS thread...until it started T8ing. I never claim my testing is gospel. Especially in this case where only two individuals have tested.

I did a little bit of testing vs. Faerie Stompy. I doubt the matchup matters, but it's a lot of fun to play. Both decks have bombs, but FS' won out in the end (going about 60/40 blue). FoW, Pro:Red, Flying, and SoFI are all big plays for blue while red counters with it's creature removal (FtK and Quake are huuuge if no pre:red) and the game clinching Chalce @3.

Yes, forgive me, I meant Blazing Shoal, and I was just recommending it as something to try. Pitdragon likes it, and I have Covetous Dragons and other things to pitch that are 5. BTW, you do have Arc-Slogger, even if it is a one of.

Now that that has been said, don't be such a Donkey.

The card advantage you stated is all situational, which means it isn't real card advantage. You have nothing to recover against strong control.

Phantom

10-24-2006, 07:07 PM

Yes, forgive me, I meant Blazing Shoal, and I was just recommending it as something to try. Pitdragon likes it, and I have Covetous Dragons and other things to pitch that are 5. BTW, you do have Arc-Slogger, even if it is a one of.

I hadn't considered it on a Dragon, where it could lead to some quick kills, but even then I think it falls into the realm of cool plays that don't come up too often. And there are way too many instant removal cards out there that turn Shoal into the dreaded 3-for-1 in their favor. Even a counter turns it into card disadvantage.

Now that that has been said, don't be such a Donkey.

The card advantage you stated is all situational, which means it isn't real card advantage. You have nothing to recover against strong control.

Sorry if I was snappish, but you were calling into question my testing results and then you made a claim that wasn't true. We DO run card advantage, even if it is situational. My question is, what ISN'T situational card advantage? Until they make a split second draw 2, I can't think of one. Not that it's a problem since most of tier 1 run conditional card advantage, and many competetive decks run little or no card advantage at all (see: Affinity, Red Death).

That being said, I can't agrue with your premise that we can't recover against strong control, but we never claimed we could:

Random Control: Mostly Unfavorable
Control matches fall under two categories. Either they scoop to Blood Moon or they beat Dragon Stompy. (Though you can also steal random draws with 14-point Rolling Earthquakes, heh). Dragon Stompy in its current form isn't ever going to have a -good- control match (Though it takes down random Rifter decks with Squee+Jitte), as it was designed to slaughter aggro, ag-con, and combo.

If you want to talk about a lack of DRAW spells, I'd be more than happy to. It's simply one of the tradeoffs you get when going from blue to red. We get better tools to fight aggro, they get draw spells and free counters. I would love it if there was a solid red draw spell for us, but I don't think it will keep this deck from being a contender.

Complete_Jank

10-24-2006, 07:46 PM

I hadn't considered it on a Dragon, where it could lead to some quick kills, but even then I think it falls into the realm of cool plays that don't come up too often. And there are way too many instant removal cards out there that turn Shoal into the dreaded 3-for-1 in their favor. Even a counter turns it into card disadvantage.

I also play Dread Slag, which has the Benefit of improving with no card in hand.

Sorry if I was snappish, but you were calling into question my testing results and then you made a claim that wasn't true. We DO run card advantage, even if it is situational. My question is, what ISN'T situational card advantage? Until they make a split second draw 2, I can't think of one. Not that it's a problem since most of tier 1 run conditional card advantage, and many competetive decks run little or no card advantage at all (see: Affinity, Red Death).

That being said, I can't agrue with your premise that we can't recover against strong control, but we never claimed we could:

I understand, but how much play testing against each match up did you do? Any sideboarding? I just don't see it. On paper, it looks good, but...

I hope your deck proves to be as good as you say it is. Personally, I love Dragons and am one of the largest collectors of them and would love to play a Tier 1 deck with them.

If you want to talk about a lack of DRAW spells, I'd be more than happy to. It's simply one of the tradeoffs you get when going from blue to red. We get better tools to fight aggro, they get draw spells and free counters. I would love it if there was a solid red draw spell for us, but I don't think it will keep this deck from being a contender.

Any thought to Dragon Mage? LOL Yea many cards are situational, but I don't count my opponent having a counter as one of them. Maybe I should share my version with you. It isn't great, matter of fact it's card disadvantage at its best, but it is interesting.

Phantom

10-24-2006, 08:59 PM

I understand, but how much play testing against each match up did you do? Any sideboarding? I just don't see it. On paper, it looks good, but...

I hope your deck proves to be as good as you say it is. Personally, I love Dragons and am one of the largest collectors of them and would love to play a Tier 1 deck with them.

Well, the matchups vs. Tier 1, we've tested a ton. This deck has been in the works for some time, so we've had plenty of time to test the big uns. The others are simply a compilement of our playing time with the deck in life and on MWS.

Just take it for a spin on MWS.

Any thought to Dragon Mage?

It's out of our curve. We can run 5cc at most and that spot is full up.

Solpugid

10-24-2006, 10:03 PM

Sorry if this has been mentioned somewhere in the thread, or if this is just a terrible idea in general, but have you thought about drooling ogre in this thing? Replacing four mountains with 4 great furnace could support it (since you have masticore, chalice, and mox), and wouldn't really make your mana any more susceptible to wasteland (since you already run a lot of better targets).

All I can see it as is a replacement for bloodrock, just as a 3/3 for 1 mana cheaper. Thoughts?

Bongo

12-04-2006, 07:52 PM

Sorry for bumping this.

This has been mad fun, props to the creators.

Like Alfred, I have found Arc-Slogger to be better than Razormane.

What's the current list? Any new additions?

tsabo_tavoc

12-05-2006, 03:44 AM

Ja, mad fun! This deck beats the best, get beaten by others. It's supper against combos, simply lose to controls and 3stompies(Angel,Faerie,Zilla). More aggressive stompies have more spells @1, just mulled to CotV.
I am playing similar to the original version, besides 4 Onslaught 2/3 birds instead of 4 Cyclops(I just cannot find them in China!), 4 Pyroclasms in place of 4 Earthquakes(Earthquake get countered by Chalice@1, doesn't it?).
The deck is quite manatight and suffers huge lifeloss. Pyrostatic Pillars can only sit on Moxes besides you are facing Thresh, and High Tide. Yeah, it's nearly 40% of your matches, but I am still skeptical about it; 3sphere is good against this two matchups and many others, while being not red:frown: .
Also, this deck is interesting : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4744

Drkdstryer

12-05-2006, 04:22 AM

Well I've been messing around with this deck and I've found that Blade Sliver is at least as good as the Cyclops - and it gets MUCH better if you draw another. Not only can it hold back to block if need be, there's no real difference between 2 and 3, truly.

- They both die to Bolt
- Both kill off Lackeys and unthreshed Mongeese, and trade with threshed 'Geese
- Sliver gets better in multiples
- Cyclops has a drawback, Sliver doesn't

Playing, the only difference I've seen is that Sliver trades with Bob, Meddling Mage, Goblin Warchief, and the like - and those ALL seem like good trades for you. It's the stacking of the ability that really pushes the Sliver over the Cyclops for me.

tsabo_tavoc

12-05-2006, 09:56 AM

/3 allows it to avoid your own quakes/clasms, as creatures are so precious in this deck.

outsideangel

12-05-2006, 01:18 PM

I used to run a red fat + disruption deck in Extended, and one card I always loved was Tangle Wire.

Basically, the whole deck is focused on keeping up the tempo. Drop fast beats and keep up the pressure. Tangle Wire is a virtual multi-turn Timewalk, especially with two-mana lands, Chalice, and equipment.

With Arc-Slogger in place of Masticore, Tangle Wire should be tested in the Squee slot, plus maybe one more if room can be found.

Cavius The Great

12-05-2006, 02:06 PM

Cyclops has a drawback, Sliver doesn't

Attacking each turn isn't a significant drawback. This deck plays aggressively anyways.

Goblin Snowman

12-05-2006, 03:06 PM

Attacking each turn isn't a significant drawback. This deck plays aggressively anyways.

Werebear says otherwise. Mother of Runes/Silver Knight tap him every turn (and can kill him). It lets Piledriver through. He's blocked by Troll Ascetic, Burning Tree Shamen, Mystic Enforcer, ect. If I was going to run a Three drop, and it can't be Drooling Ogre (the best choice in my opinion), I would be either Thoughtbound Primoc (depending on the Thres and Deadguy MUs, if they are bad ignore him, but he's a 2/3 for 3 that flies), Blade Sliver, Shinka Gatekeeper, or Rock Jockey. Rock Jockey is my personal favorite, but I happen to be crazy.

EDIT - Unless you cast Earthquake for 0, CotV doesn't affect it. Pyrostatic Pillar is usually better since you can do way more damage to them quickly. With this in mind, I reccommend testing the Red P. Blast, Char. It works in Faerie Stompy, and this is more aggressive. Or so I've been told.

Cavius The Great

12-05-2006, 05:16 PM

Werebear says otherwise. Mother of Runes/Silver Knight tap him every turn (and can kill him). It lets Piledriver through. He's blocked by Troll Ascetic, Burning Tree Shamen, Mystic Enforcer, ect.

You're acting like this deck can't deal with the creatures you mentioned. How often to they get a Werebear with threshold by the first or second turn? Razormane Masticore and Arc-slogger can clear the way before those creatures can make even a slight impact and an early Jitte along with a Cyclops spells doom for them regardless. How often do you think you'd get a chalice for 1 before a Mom hits play? Very often I think.

Goblin Snowman

12-05-2006, 05:45 PM

You're acting like this deck can't deal with the creatures you mentioned. How often to they get a Werebear with threshold by the first or second turn? Razormane Masticore and Arc-slogger can clear the way before those creatures can make even a slight impact and an early Jitte along with a Cyclops spells doom for them regardless. How often do you think you'd get a chalice for 1 before a Mom hits play? Very often I think.

About as often as you lose the roll. That's automaticly 1/2 the time, and there are times when you don't have said CotV, 2 Mana lands, ect. Razormane Nastywhore and Arc-Slogger can, if you get them out before the deck gets Threshold turn 3, they don't Counter them, Swords them, and you have the Red mana for Arc-Slogger. And early Jitte (i.e, turn one), followed by BRC means you're not Chalicing them, Pillaring them, or stopping Needle/Swords.This deck has problems with Mystic Enforecer, make no mistake.

Phantom

12-06-2006, 01:42 PM

Playing, the only difference I've seen is that Sliver trades with Bob, Meddling Mage, Goblin Warchief, and the like - and those ALL seem like good trades for you. It's the stacking of the ability that really pushes the Sliver over the Cyclops for me.

I have to question this. First of all, the three drop often doesn't live long in this deck (or else, we win), and the deck runs no draw what so ever, so how on earh are you stacking these Slivers with any consistency?

Secondly, if you're in a position where you DON'T want your three drop to attack, then you're probably losing the game horribly. This deck is hyper aggresive, even more so than FS and wants to be played that way. Generally, you drop your Cyclops turn 1 or 2, and follow him up with a quake, fattie, or Jitte and equip. Under all three of those scenarios, you would want your 3 drop attacking.

The downfall of 3/2's is that they die to a lot more than 3/3's. Things like our own quakes, Magma Jets, Fire/Ice, Confidant, Mage, Warchief (None of these are good trades as we run about 5000 answers to them maindeck) double Fanatics (or single if you block or are blocked) and smaller Incinerators, lackey + Mogg, Lackey plus Incinerator and on and on.

Trust me when I say that we tested nearly ALL possible alternatives and it came to this: The three drops main purpose is to LIVE long enough to get a Jitte on it while applying solid pressure. Cyclops fits this bill much better than any other Red 2R drop.

@Char: I think we tested it before we added Pillar mainboard and found it kinda meh. It might deserve some testing now, but what are you going to drop? You can't drop creatures or you'll start losing to control and ag/con, but you can't drop any of the spells cause their just too awesome.

@ Mystic Enforcer: Almost any aggro deck has trouble with Enforcer preboard. Luckily, we have more outs than most. We have Chalice to end the game before it starts, we have Jitte to stick on anything except Squee and we'll outclass Enforcer six days a week and twice on Sunday, we have Pillar which will bleed Thresh to the point where it can't dig for Enforcer or can't attack with it, we have Razormane, which will attack into an Enforcer readily, and we have the oft overlooked 6 point Rolling earthquake.

Postboard, we get an insane slew of anti Thresh cards to choose from including the always solid Crypt, Smash for needles and card advantage, and the just nasty Blood Moon, which is game vs. White Thresh as they NEVER see it coming and run a whopping 4 basics (remember that their fetches become mountains too). Let's see Enforcer try to make it though when Thresh has to draw their one plains and their one forest.

Cavius The Great

01-22-2007, 12:23 PM

Mirrislegend

01-22-2007, 12:40 PM

I would have to say it seems perfect. While it cant trade with 'geese like its predecessors in that slot, instead it just accelerates you into stuff that CAN block the goose (and survive!). It has the requisite Jitte carrying capacity. And, while relatively minor, Simian Spirit Guide can block, unlike Hulking Ogre. So, my response to SSG in relation to Dragon Stompy is "Yay!"

tsabo_tavoc

01-27-2007, 12:26 AM

I hate to raise the dead, but there is a new card called Simian Spirit Guide that would fit the 3cc creature slot quite nicely. It's basically an Elvish spirit guide but red. What you guys think about that card choice? Seems pretty nasty to me.
Ja, SSGs certainly fit in Dragon Stompy. However, they are in the place of Seething Songs, not the 3cc creatures.
As the leave of Songs, Dragons should be replaced, by Avalanche Rider, Arc Slogger, maybe by the red Akroma, or red Morphling?

Tacosnape

01-27-2007, 01:41 AM

I disagree. While SSG is a solid, solid contender (My Green version of this deck ran ESG), it by no means replaces Seething Song, which can drop Sloggers/Razormanes on turn 1-2. SSG will pick up a couple of slots, but Seething Song not being present in this deck is a mistake.

EDIT: (Clip. I shouldn't post or design decks while sleepy.)

I'm working on a new list. Phantom, if you still follow this thread, I'd like your input.

Bongo

02-01-2007, 05:23 PM

Cavius The Great

02-01-2007, 05:32 PM

I've always liked Urza's Blueprint as additional draw. I've always played the card in my 4 Ancient Tomb/ 4 City of Traitors Stompy-like decks.

Tacosnape

02-01-2007, 08:00 PM

I'm trying a somewhat modified version of DragonStompy. This is very raw and the draws are sometimes sketchy, but when it works it's amazing.

8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Arc-Slogger

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Tangle Wire

SB:
3 Shattering Spree
4 Boil
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blood Moon

Empty the Warrens is huge against counters. Tangle Wire also has amazing synergy with EtW and Jitte, often being a multiple Time Walk. Or maybe Trinisphere?

You know, Empty the Warrens is a fantastic idea in this deck, except for the fact that you lose out on Rolling Earthquake / Pyroclasm.

I'm not sure about Rite of Flame, though. It's dead once you Chalice for 1, and even though it ups your chances of hitting a Chalice for 1, it's ehh. I'd rather run the extra mountain or two. And again, Razormane with or without Squee has proven so strong he's worth at least part of Slogger's slots (Remember, he can be dropped turn 2 with Tomb/City/Mox whereas Slogger cannot, and he circumvents Pro-red). I also think you give up a lot by not running either Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake.

Tangle Wire's also an excellent choice. I love the synergy between Wire and Warrens.

Cavius The Great

02-02-2007, 11:05 AM

Urza's Blueprint is really good with Razormane Masticore. It could even replace Squee's slot. I've tested Urza's Blueprint in various stompy decks and it's a complete house.

Tao

02-15-2007, 04:26 AM

I don't know if I should make a new thread. Maybe I'd get a price for the 1000th Tomb/Chalice based deck.

I always thought that Equipment is not the right thing for this deck because your threats are big enough even without it. So I tried to play as much fat as possible, but couldn't come up with enough quality. PC changed that now. It gives Simian Spirit Guide and Reckless Wurm that is ok on its own and crazy with Maticore(s). Furthermore it adds Pyrohemia, which should be crazy good against every other creature based Aggro. Right noiw it is only in the Sideboard because Empty the Warrens is even better.

SevEncore

Basic Lands
10 [MM] Mountain

// Fast Mana

4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [PCS] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [9E] Seething Song

// Heavy threats

4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [PCS] Reckless Wurm
4 [UD] Masticore
3 [FD] Razormane Masticore
4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

// Other
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PCS] Pyrohemia
SB: 3 [PS] Flametongue Kavu
SB: 4 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar

Kavu is only Sideboard because

Tacosnape

02-15-2007, 12:14 PM

I don't think I love the idea of 8 Masticores, but I do like the general direction you've gone with this. It's an interesting alternative, trying it with just the massive hordes of face-crushers. That gives it a little more of a focused feel.

I think I would try to rework the FTK's back into this list, though.

The problem with Masticore itself is that half the time your mana on the board is Ancient Tomb, meaning it's really difficult to afford continuously reusing it. Razormane comes out with Seething Song, doesn't tie up your mana, is bigger, etc.

Pyrohemia is an interesting idea though. How's that been working for you? Better than Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake?

Berzerked

05-10-2007, 01:19 AM

I've been thinking about this deck lately, especially because we can reliably drop Chalice@2 against those Flash decks. Also, we demolish Goblins, and with some changes we can even better our control matchup. Here's what I was thinking:

Mana
10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Moon

Beats
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Sulfur Elemental
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Trinisphere is great against low curved decks, especially when combined with Chalice. I consider it better than Tangle Wire mostly because Wire sometimes screws me over, and 3sphere doesn't even touch me.

Magus is awesome. MD Blood Moon that carries a Sword/Jitte and fixes City/Tomb after you don't need them anymore. Fits right into the 3cc slot.

Sulfur Elemental is also pretty good. Can't be countered, is unexpected, and the best part - he screws with combo. The +1 can be problematic.

What do you think?

Tacosnape

05-10-2007, 03:24 AM

I've been playing and reworking this deck for months straight now and was getting close to tossing my list to Phantom for evaluation when Hulk Flash came along and ruined everything. I will tell you what we've come up with though.

1. Trinisphere sucks. No, seriously. It was bad pre-Flash and it's even worse post-Flash.

2. Simian Spirit Guide also sucks. Not kidding. Mox, Tomb, and Seething Song are all you need.

3. We do like Magus of the Moon. This is an obvious include. We don't know if we like him maindeck or not yet, due to the fact that we are (And you should be) running either Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake.

4. You should have Rakdos Pit Dragon in the deck.

5. There's a pretty good chance we'll also be recommending Gathan Raiders in the deck.

6. It loses to Hulk Flash and there's not much you can do about it.

barron

05-10-2007, 03:44 AM

Wow, that blows. I have been working on a very similar deck and had no idea this thread existed, though I may have been original there. Anyway, I will throw in my two cents.
I love having 4 arc-slogger. That guy is a house and always great to draw since the first one will almost always get sworded or counterspelled. On the first turn he is a game win all in his own usually.

Magus of the moon. I have been playing with 2 of him maindecked and have never regretted it (not yet anyway). He works against every deck out there (spare solidarity) and in the late game even saves you from your own ancient tombs, and when totally useless he is simply mox fodder.

I like the spirit guide. I will say he is a metagame call since he can really blow, but he helps you explode and lets you out bluff daze players (which i think is underrated with this deck). I am not saying I will always keep him in the deck, but I like the tricks that he is involved in.

I have been really considering that dragon. How has he been working out? Right now I am testing 2 Torchlings and those guys perform very well since they can take out pretty much every creature in the meta.

I don't really like the raiders. i think there are better things to put in his place.

I have been trying two maindecked fortune theifs which have eitehr performed as "meh" or game winners. A lot of decks can't really handle an equiped thief and just with the tempo and raw power of the deck he makes a game win a lot easier.

Trinisphere does blow

I have found a way that gave me positive performances against flash, but I don't really think it's worth it. It's 4 pyroblasts and 4 REB in the SB and the goal is to just set chalice at 2. The guides are key since they let you win the wars, but again, don't know if it's really worth it.

How do you guys handle top deck consistency? this deck is very hit or miss with it's topdecks. I have curbed the problem with 4 MD magma jets, but I do think uppint the SOFI count would be better.

I have been hitting a crossroads with this deck. It has the potential to be techy, but also just backbreaking with it's topdecks. Are you guys just going for the raw power or what? I think this deck has the chance to do some pretty incredible things. I am going to start testing a lone Red Akroma in the deck to make them worry about all my morphs and since I ahve encountered the morph mana way more than I earlier suspected. That and she is pretty much a game when she flips (though not as good as the real akroma)

HdH_Cthulhu

05-13-2007, 05:01 AM

Why not replace the Bloodrock Cyclops with Bloodscale Prowler or Fault Riders or Sulfur Elemental>?

Zlatzman

05-13-2007, 07:49 AM

Nice deck you have going here, and it seems like it has benefited some from Planar Chaos and Future Sight.

I was looking over the Future Sight cards, and came across Gathan Raiders. The discard-part of morphing might be too severe, but if it can be supported it is a 3/3 for 3, that becomes 5/5 if you happen to have no cards in hand.

As a minor benefit it will allow you to cast Flametongue Kavu against creatureless opponents if the Kavu is the last card in your hand.

Tao

05-13-2007, 08:59 AM

Here is a smiliar version of this deck. The deck does not play any Dragons anymore so I think that "Empty the Slogger" is a better name for the deck.

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=8192

I played this deck together with a friend (we used exactly the same list) in a small German online tourney. We could finish 1st and 2nd and the deck is quite strong:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?type=Empty%20the%20Slogger&format=Legacy

Empty the Warrens is absolutely amazing. It usually produces 4 tokens as Equipment carriers or more Tokens that just win the game alone.

I like Berzerked's list and I agree that the Moon Magus is nuts. If is a safe 4-of and beats many decks by itself. It is one of the best cards this deck could dream of. Here is my version with Future Sight:

// Lands
10 [TSP] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [PCS] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [PC] Sulfur Elemental
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
2 [PS] Flametongue Kavu

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [TSP] Rift Bolt (goes around Chalice 1 and helps Empty the Warrens)
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 2 [B] Winter Orb
SB: 2 [8E] Boil
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg

Unfortunately there is no way that this deck beats Hulk Flash so we have to wait until Hulk Flash gets the cut before playing it again.

etrigan

05-13-2007, 10:51 AM

Depending on the amount of White creatures and/or the amount of Slivers in your metagame, Blade Sliver might be better than Sulfur Elemental.

Tacosnape

05-13-2007, 12:42 PM

First of all, if you're posting these janky Empty-The-Warrens lists on here, keep something in mind. Dragon Stompy was built to crush two things: Aggro, and Combo. Pre-Hulk Flash, my Dragon Stompy build considered Goblins and all combo decks a walkover. (Well, maybe not like, Aluren, but most combo decks.)

Empty the Warrens sucks in this deck. It might be decent against control, but if you're facing a lot of control, you shouldn't be playing Dragon Stompy. You aren't Belcher, you aren't Epic Storm. In a perfect world you might pull it off for eight tokens, but more often you'll do it for four to six, and at the expense of denying yourself the red board-sweepers like Pyroclasm, Rolling Earthquake, or even Pyrohemia that make the deck as strong against aggro as it is. You people are aware, also, that Simian Spirit Guide doesn't work with the Warrens at all? Simian Spirit Guide isn't a metagame call. It just sucks.

Back to the point of crushing aggro and combo: This deck with a mere four Chalices will not crush combo. This deck without Rolling Earthquake, Pyroclasm, or some similar sweeper will not crush all aggro.

Sword of Fire and Ice sucks too, although it looks awesome on paper and I admit to having tried it for a good while. It's bad because your best creatures in this deck are Razormane Masticore and Arc-Slogger, which are both on your 5-mana curve. Jitte curves out far more optimally. You don't want to overload this deck with equipment because, unlike Faerie Stompy, you have no Force of Wills to occasionally defend your creatures long enough to make a game-shifting hit.

And by the way, as for Razormane/Slogger, if you don't listen to me on any other point ever about my own deck, listen to me on this one: You shouldn't be playing four of either one and none of the other. It's a mistake. I promise. I tried it all three ways for more hours each than anyone not named Phantom has probably played the deck period. I used to advocate only Razormane, cause he's sexy and bladed and has first strike which makes me want to hug him ('cept he'd cut me, sigh, I love you Razormane, but I digress), but after more several-hour testing sessions than you'd believe, some combination of the two usually proves optimal. You can argue the merits of Razormane (Bigger, swings through every creature in Legacy, kills Silver Knights, etc) and you can argue the merits of Slogger (Imprints on a Mox in early hands, can shoot off multiple small guys, shoots to the head). But the simple fact is they both rock in certain circumstances, and while this may be, having two of either one on the board is too expensive to handle, while having one of each is amazing. Run 1-and-2 or 2-and-2 or 3-and-2 depending on how many slots you're giving them.

Rakdos Pit Dragon's exclusion baffles me. He should always be in this deck. Always. He's an auto-four of. He evades, he pumps, and he double-strikes, giving you a way to deal that finishing blow short of the Rolling Earthquake, an out to pump your excess mana into, and a way to crush every creature that gets in its way. Oh, and did I mention that I've pulled off over 20 turn-2 kills with Rakdos Pit Dragon? It's not a common occurrence by any means, but it's pretty fucking awesome when it works.

I'm just getting around to testing Sulfur Elemental. Phantom likes it, though, and that's good enough for me to say it deserves Bloodrock Cyclops's old slot. A point one of my teammates made was that it actually allows Flametongue Kavu to kill Exalted Angel, which is pretty freaking cool.:cool:

BreathWeapon

05-13-2007, 04:41 PM

No offense, but the Germans and the Russians have been putting up a lot of results with their red based aggro-prison builds for awhile, and dismissing their achievements out of hand, when Dragon Stompy has never put up any results, is unwarranted.

Edit: I just noticed the list he posted is in fact horrible, and that is not the list that Germans have posted on their site if you want to check his references.

Simian Spirit Guide is awful? Simian Spirit Guide is responsible for resolving either Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon at a 50% rate on turn one, Chalice of the Void for one at a 37% rate on turn one, Pyrostatic Pillar at a 32% rate on turn one, a Seething Song and a 5cc creature at a 23% rate on turn one and protecting the deck against Daze and Goblin Lackey. Simian Spirit Guide is awesome.

Berzerked

05-14-2007, 04:09 AM

Here's my newest adaptation.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flametongue Kavu
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Magma Jet
2 Powder Keg
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Umezawa's Jitte

I agree with BreathWeapon on SSG. He's just awesome.

I like Powder Keg over Rolling Earthquake here. It hits more than just creatures, is an answer to Lackey on the play, can hang around to kill at instant speed, and kills tokens. There's also no conflict with Magus.

Magma jet is there for a little card selection (which this deck really needs), but I'm sure it's pretty weak. These could easily be SoFI.

I keep trying to find something better than Pillar against such a wide range of decks, but I can't, so it's here.

I'm obviously not seeing why Pit Dragon is so good. He's usually going to be just a 3/3 cast on turn 2. After that he requires some pretty big investments to get anything significant done, and at that point, why not cast more threats? Especially since it seems that his Hellbent mechanic kind of works against his overall theme. The more mana you tie into making him bigger, the less cards you are playing from your hand, and thus, the less likely you are to ever see Hellbent in action. I'm sure the turn 2 wins were cool, but I don't really think he deserves a spot here.

Arrowni

05-14-2007, 10:41 AM

Has anyone tested a couple of Gemstone Caverns in one land of the slots? I don't think they are going to be all that hot but testing should be considered at least.

Tacosnape

05-14-2007, 01:31 PM

Berzerked

05-14-2007, 07:06 PM

Magus/Guide/Elemental - 12 guys that go 1-for-1
Slogger/FTK/Masticore - 7 guys that always go 2-for-1
Keg takes care of Vial+Lackey or Piledrivers or Warchief+Matron+King
Jet will trade
Jitte is the bomb

The rest of the deck just accelerates into this

If it's really that bad, I guess Pyrokinesis can come in.

How about this for a SB:

3 Rack and Ruin/Shattering Spree
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyroblast
3 REB
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Powder Keg

outsideangel

05-14-2007, 08:47 PM

Magus/Guide/Elemental - 12 guys that go 1-for-1
Slogger/FTK/Masticore - 7 guys that always go 2-for-1
Keg takes care of Vial+Lackey or Piledrivers or Warchief+Matron+King
Jet will trade
Jitte is the bomb

The rest of the deck just accelerates into this

Going 1-for-1 against Goblins is a poor strategy. They have Ringleader, Matron, and Siege-Gang. Even 2-for-1's will only get you so far, particularly because you have the potential for some abysmal topdecks and run Chrome Mox and all their guys chump block all of yours until they refill and gain control of the game. Jitte is really your best answer against them, and even then they run Tinkerer/Hooligan.

Arrowni

05-15-2007, 03:29 PM

What about some main decked gilded lotus? It seems that it would help the deck keep the steam longer.

Tacosnape

05-15-2007, 04:57 PM

Gilded Lotus is a bad idea. In fact, all one-shot accelerants except Seething Song are a bad idea, because you want to be able to have access to 3-4 mana every turn in order to play everything in your hand.

This is why Simian Spirit Guide is bad. It's either a really bad mana accelerant (A mere :r:) or a really bad threat (a mere 2/2.) And by the way, all threats power 2 or less are bad threats in this deck, thanks largely to Ancient Tomb and Rolling Earthquake limiting the number of spells you can cast per game. Magus of the Moon, for example, is a bad threat. However, his disruption power is so strong that he's quite playable. Simian Spirit Guide trades the amazing game-winning Magus ability for the ability to add :r: to your pool, once, at the cost of a card. FTK, Razormane, Slogger, and Pit Dragon are all amazing heavy-duty threats, and Sulfur Elemental's close behind.

Seething Song is a pretty okay/mediocre idea. This is because Song fits the curve of the deck so perfectly. Instead of curving out at 3/4 Mana on turns 1-2 or 2-3, it lets you curve at 5/4, meaning you can go Razormane/Slogger followed by Kavu, etc. It can drop out a Razormane, drop out a Slogger, drop out a Pit Dragon and pump it once to avoid burn, drop out a 3-drop and a Chalice/Jitte/Pillar/Quake. It also allows doing this turn one if you get a :2:-Land and a Mox.

BreathWeapon

05-15-2007, 05:45 PM

Tacosnape

05-15-2007, 08:58 PM

SSG and R results in generating "2R" on the first turn, and while it's tempting to state that it's just an "R" and an "R" isn't as game winning as "RRRRR", it's really "2R," and that "2R" is just as game winning as "RRRRR," because it's casting a Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void for one, Chalice of the Void for two, Pyrostatic Pillar, Seething Song or a turn one/two 4cc card faster than the opponent can deal with.

You can't state a + 72% chance of 2R on the first turn isn't significant to the deck's curve, because it's the point at which at which the deck can cast its game ending disruption against combo, aggro-control and control. I've even started to test the Gemstone Caverns because getting to 2R is so important to this deck's match ups.

Breathweapon = More Excedrin sales for Walgreens.

First of all, :r::r:, or RR, is what I think you're trying to say. :2::r:, or 2R, means 2 colorless and a red.

Point 1: How fast you get to your :r::r: doesn't really make a whole lot of difference if you're oversaturated with acceleration and don't have any legitimate threats backing anything up.

Point 2: Getting :r::r: on turn one means absolutely nothing to the deck and I most certainly can state that this is not significant. What are you going to do with that double red, exactly? I'll tell you what. Cast Pyrostatic Pillar. That's it. One spell, and one that Phantom and I have toyed with cutting and reducing from our maindeck. Chalice of the Void and Umezawa's Jitte can be easily cast with :2: from a Tomb, City, or Mountain/Mox. Two red mana casts nothing else in the deck short of Rolling Earthquake for 1, which you have almost no reason to cast ever on turn one.

Point 3: Getting :2::r: on the first turn is nice, but by no means necessary. The card choices in the deck are designed as such to where playing Mountain-Go is perfectly acceptable and more often than not winds up in a favorable position. In fact, Mountain-Go should be one of your most common openings. It rarely hurts you. Facing a Lackey? Let them overextend into a Rolling Earthquake. Facing combo? Drop Chalice for 0 and follow it with the Pillar on turn 2. Facing Threshold? You need more powerhouses, not fast SSG tricks. And while SSG may appear to rock against Daze, it really doesn't. You'll be better off with threats bigger than Werebears than cards that read "0, Instant, Return target tapped Island to owner's hand."

Point 4: YOU HAVE NO GAME ENDING DISRUPTION AGAINST CONTROL. Magus of the Moon doesn't do it. They'll float a white and Swords it. They'll float a black and Edict it. They'll Force it. They'll pack basic lands. They'll pack red. They'll pack Mox Diamond. Every control deck in the format has an out against Magus of the Moon already. Your control match is godawful as it is, and running SSG makes it even worse, as now your threats don't really hurt the opponent. If your answer against control is to try and make sure you have a turn one Magus of the Moon with a deck that sucks at mulliganing just like every Tomb/Chalice Aggro deck ever made, then you need a new plan.

Phantom

05-15-2007, 09:27 PM

To further the point here, I think running SSG and Magus mainboard is probably a separate deck and deserves a different thread (just as the ETW builds did). It doesn't allow you to run Rolling Earthquake (or Clasm) and Trini is probably a better choice than Chalice in those builds.

Rolling Earthquake and Chalice are literally the two biggest reasons to play this deck, much as Chalice and FoW were the two biggest reasons to play Faerie Stompy. We traded in FS' amazing combo game and good aggro game for an amazing aggro game and a good combo one.

Taco's right about the control matchup. I daresay there are few individuals who have tested more Chalice aggro decks than we, and getting the control matchup to a favorable point is a fools errand, and will cost you in other spheres. Since the pre (and we can be sure, post) Flash meta's were dominated by Combo and Aggro, with control exerting little presence, I don't think that's a quality trade. Certainly not one we're looking to make here.

As for advice for the Magus/Trini/SSG builds, from what I've tested, Magus is not nearly as game breaking as, say, Chalice so you will need to run additional LD (works well with Trini) and Wasteland doesn't count for obvious reasons. I recommend testing Avalanche Riders and Pillage.

I can't imagine Gemstone Caverns being good in a competitive deck like this. 75% of the games you play, its a colorless one mana land that sucks in multiples.

Tacosnape

05-16-2007, 02:44 AM

I recommend testing Avalanche Riders and Pillage.

I remember you mentioning that. How has that worked out for you? Pillage's :1::r::r: cost made me cringe. Land destruction w/ Trinisphere seems almost like it's in danger of making yet another spinoff of this deck to go with Empty the Slogger.

I can't imagine Gemstone Caverns being good in a competitive deck like this. 75% of the games you play, its a colorless one mana land that sucks in multiples.

More on this, Gemstone Caverns is mostly played in Hulk Flash, a deck which actually isn't hurt in the slightest by going second. Dragon Stompy wants to go first. Bad. It has several matchups that vary between favorable and unfavorable strictly on the roll of the die.

Arrowni

05-16-2007, 08:01 AM

Gilded Lotus is a bad idea. In fact, all one-shot accelerants except Seething Song are a bad idea, because you want to be able to have access to 3-4 mana every turn in order to play everything in your hand.

While I sympathize with the spirit of your post I just wanted to point out that Gilded Lotus is not a one shot accelerant, it works exactly towards the goal of having a high count of mana constantly and it doesn't deal damage to you. It also gives red. So, is there an specific reason for the card to be a bad idea?

Henk

05-16-2007, 09:23 AM

what's is the most updated list for now?

Phantom

05-16-2007, 10:33 AM

BreathWeapon

05-16-2007, 12:09 PM

Breathweapon = More Excedrin sales for Walgreens.

First of all, :r::r:, or RR, is what I think you're trying to say. :2::r:, or 2R, means 2 colorless and a red.

Point 1: How fast you get to your :r::r: doesn't really make a whole lot of difference if you're oversaturated with acceleration and don't have any legitimate threats backing anything up.

Point 2: Getting :r::r: on turn one means absolutely nothing to the deck and I most certainly can state that this is not significant. What are you going to do with that double red, exactly? I'll tell you what. Cast Pyrostatic Pillar. That's it. One spell, and one that Phantom and I have toyed with cutting and reducing from our maindeck. Chalice of the Void and Umezawa's Jitte can be easily cast with :2: from a Tomb, City, or Mountain/Mox. Two red mana casts nothing else in the deck short of Rolling Earthquake for 1, which you have almost no reason to cast ever on turn one.

Point 3: Getting :2::r: on the first turn is nice, but by no means necessary. The card choices in the deck are designed as such to where playing Mountain-Go is perfectly acceptable and more often than not winds up in a favorable position. In fact, Mountain-Go should be one of your most common openings. It rarely hurts you. Facing a Lackey? Let them overextend into a Rolling Earthquake. Facing combo? Drop Chalice for 0 and follow it with the Pillar on turn 2. Facing Threshold? You need more powerhouses, not fast SSG tricks. And while SSG may appear to rock against Daze, it really doesn't. You'll be better off with threats bigger than Werebears than cards that read "0, Instant, Return target tapped Island to owner's hand."

Point 4: YOU HAVE NO GAME ENDING DISRUPTION AGAINST CONTROL. Magus of the Moon doesn't do it. They'll float a white and Swords it. They'll float a black and Edict it. They'll Force it. They'll pack basic lands. They'll pack red. They'll pack Mox Diamond. Every control deck in the format has an out against Magus of the Moon already. Your control match is godawful as it is, and running SSG makes it even worse, as now your threats don't really hurt the opponent. If your answer against control is to try and make sure you have a turn one Magus of the Moon with a deck that sucks at mulliganing just like every Tomb/Chalice Aggro deck ever made, then you need a new plan.

Point 1 and Point 2 are irrelevant, I meant 2R and not RR, or I would have wrote 5R for Seething Song.

Point 4: I disagree, because the odds of casting a turn one Moon (Magus and Blood) are above 50% post board on the play, and unless the opponent has Force of Will, he's fucked.

It just seems like none of my points were actually considered or addressed, you just assumed I meant RR and Magus of the Moon and not Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon?

Tacosnape

05-16-2007, 12:44 PM

While I sympathize with the spirit of your post I just wanted to point out that Gilded Lotus is not a one shot accelerant, it works exactly towards the goal of having a high count of mana constantly and it doesn't deal damage to you. It also gives red. So, is there an specific reason for the card to be a bad idea?

Yeeeah. I was thinking Lotus Bloom when I wrote that. Completely my mistake.:laugh:

Phantom kind of has it, though. 5 is what we want to ramp up to, and while Seething Song / Gilded Lotus could be nice, I don't think it's worth the slot.

Point 4: I disagree, because the odds of casting a turn one Moon (Magus and Blood) are above 50% post board on the play, and unless the opponent has Force of Will, he's fucked.

I'd like to see your math on that, because I don't think that's a correct statement.

Second, even if it is right, so the hell what? You're dedicating tons of slots in your deck to stopping...what exactly? 3-4 color Landstill and Threshold/Fish? Perhaps Loam? Let's address those.

1. We crush Fish.

2. We crush Threshold.

3. Loam builds run Mox Diamond and often mulligan aggressively for it, and Mox Diamond will shut you down unless you Chaliced for 0 on top of your Magus/Blood Moon.

4. Your plan doesn't beat Landstill for infinity reasons, but here's the big three.

-3A: You will almost never win game one with the watered down build you propose unless you 1. Win the Die Roll, 2. Get a turn one Magus, 3. They don't have a Force, and 4. They don't get a basic plains and a Swords to Plowshares or basic Swamp and a Diabolic Edict/Smother. The chances of all four happening are astronomically low.

-3B: If you lose game 1, you lose the match. Even if game 2 you shut them out with Magus or Blood Moon on turn one, game 3 They go first. Every land in Landstill produces blue. Now you're facing Hydroblast as well as Force of Will. Also, if you drop the turn one Magus, they can float a white and Swords him. If you try the turn one Chalice first, then you run the risk of them having two mana out for Counterspell, as well as potentially Disenchant and Diabolic Edict.

-3C: Against a good player, you will lose almost every game where they answer your Magus/Blood Moon. This is because Dragon Stompy has a bad match against a dedicated control deck, especially those that Chalice can't shut down. Even turning it into a bad combo deck doesn't fix this problem.

5. What other decks don't have an answer to this? 43 Land? Fair enough. You've tweaked the deck to beat 43 Land and have a slightly less unfavorable game against Loam and Landstill at the price of weakening your combo matchups and butchering your aggro matchups.

For me? No thanks.

Phantom

05-18-2007, 05:26 PM

I remember you mentioning that. How has that worked out for you? Pillage's :1::r::r: cost made me cringe. Land destruction w/ Trinisphere seems almost like it's in danger of making yet another spinoff of this deck to go with Empty the Slogger.

I haven't really had a chance to test it out yet. The meta isn't really perfect for LD right now, and I don't really like playing decks that lose to Goblins. We'll have to see how the meta shakes out post Flash. I think maindeck Null Rod might be a neccessity in Legacy mana denial to combat all the moxen, petals, LEDs and Vials floating around.

Jak

07-16-2007, 04:41 PM

So I started out playing Empty the Slogger and really liked the feel of the deck, and then I saw DS. So now I am playing DS because I like the idea of winning turn 2 (:cool: ), the sweepers, and the better creatures. I like how the deck plays out and I think it deserves a necro. I have thrown together a list of a Mana Denial DS and Taco's Build. So here they are.

Dragon Stompy
Posted By Tacosnape

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Accel
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

Creatures
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Sulfur Elemental
3 FtK
3 Gathan Raiders
2 Arc Slogger
2 Razormane Masticore

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Pyroclasm
4 Rolling Earthquake

Mana Denial DS

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Accel
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

Creatures
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Avalanche Rider
3 Magus of the Moon
3 FtK
2 Arc Slogger
2 Razormane Masticore

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Stone Rain or whatever
4 Pyroclasm

Thoughts?

Bane of the Living

07-16-2007, 09:45 PM

Mana Denial DS

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Accel
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

Creatures
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Avalanche Rider
3 Magus of the Moon
3 FtK
2 Arc Slogger
2 Razormane Masticore

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Stone Rain or whatever
4 Pyroclasm

Thoughts?

The thought of paying Echo for Avalanche Riders with Ancient Tomb mana makes me wince. I think you should be playing Magus in the deck no questions asked, but you can leave the LD focus at that.

Jak

07-17-2007, 04:22 AM

Yeah it would hurt, but that was a really rough and untested list.

I think you should be playing Magus in the deck no questions asked

Do you mean in the DS or the mana denial one, because I am playing him in the mana denial list.

Tacosnape

07-17-2007, 12:07 PM

Magus is not an auto-play in the non land-denial versions.

The only decks he hurts bad enough to completely cripple in one shot are UGW Threshold (Not UGR, due to burn), and Landstill. Either of these decks can Force him on turn one. Threshold can Daze him or just ride the Tarmogoyf they have to Victory. Landstill scoffs at him, as Landstill just leaves its mana untapped and floats the appropriate color mana to STP/Edict/Whatever him. Or, if Landstill's got a Deed down, Magus is irrelevant.

On top of that, Dragon Stompy maindecks anywhere from 4-8 boardsweepers that kill Magus of the Moon. Rolling Earthquake is an auto 4-of, and recent versions are packing Pyroclasm as well (Though maindecking the Clasm is a metagame call.)

EDIT: Also, interestingly enough, I've gone back to running Bloodrock Cyclops over Sulfur Elemental in the Quake/Clasm maindeck version. He synergizes much better. Although if you aren't maindecking Clasm, Sulfur's by far better.

Jak

07-17-2007, 03:25 PM

Eww Cyclops. But I guess it is the best replacement. I really did not like Sulfur Elemental. So I guess he would be good to run as a 3 of and bump Raiders up to 4.

Samshire

07-17-2007, 04:14 PM

Jak

07-17-2007, 04:27 PM

Yeah same here. But Rolling Earthquake can take down creatures like mystic enforcer, exalted angel, sea drake, and serendib efreet. Earthquake is what I am using as a replacement.

Nihil Credo

07-18-2007, 04:31 AM

Card worth testing: Grinning Ignus. Just a 2/2 dork, but the built-in Ritual effect lets it fuel fatties and big Earthquakes while saving itself from sweepers. Returning itself to hand is also nice for feeding Razormane Masticore, if you draw a better card.

Has anyone tried it? I painfully learned that it cannot supplant Seething Song, but in a man slot it was pretty good.

Tacosnape

07-18-2007, 01:53 PM

Is rolling earthquake really that much better then just plain old regular earthquake? Is there anything it doesn't destroy that would really make the game much harder for you?

I'm interested in building the deck, but not interested enough to pay 200$ for 4 cards...

It's significantly better than Earthquake, as you'll learn the first time you play against any deck that packs flyers, whether it's Sea Drake, Hypnotic Specter, or what. However, the deck still functions with Earthquake.

Grinning Ignus is pretty bad. Its body is tiny, and it only counts as acceleration when split between two turns. Its bounce effect is only sorcery speed, also. If you're worried about fuelling Razormane Masticore, the original threat the deck ran was Squee, Goblin Nabob, which was also useful due to its ability to carry equipment and recur endlessly from your own Quakes and against Control. Plus Squee lets you go Hellbent while still paying for the Razormane.

For the most part, however, I just wouldn't worry about it.

Jak

08-02-2007, 07:20 PM

DragoFireheart

09-05-2007, 04:27 PM

So what would a good SB be? In a meta with a lot of Aggro-control like Countersliveers and thresh. Some Landstill. Not much combo, but there is some belcher and then it is just a bunch of random crap. So here is what I have thought of.

4 Winter Orb
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Trinisphere
3 Null Rod

Any other ideas?

I'd say that Trinisphere is the best bet as it will cripple decks relying on cheap spells [like storm decks].

I also have an idea for dragon stompy. It's crappy but what the hell. :laugh:

>>>Mana<<<
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

>>>Creatures<<<
4 Dragon Whelp
3 Two-Headed Dragon
3 Shivan Dragon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Furance Whelp

>>>Spells<<<
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Earthquake
4 Trinisphere

Top Deck

09-05-2007, 04:34 PM

I'd say that Trinisphere is the best bet as it will cripple decks relying on cheap spells [like storm decks].

I also have an idea for dragon stompy. It's crappy but what the hell. :laugh:

>>>Mana<<<
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

>>>Creatures<<<
4 Dragon Whelp
3 Two-Headed Dragon
3 Shivan Dragon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Furance Whelp

>>>Spells<<<
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Earthquake
4 Trinisphere

You would be better off just going the dragonstorm route.

DragoFireheart

09-05-2007, 04:58 PM

You would be better off just going the dragonstorm route.

If I were to do that then I would have to start putting cantrips into the deck and do all other sorts of crazy stuff.

Jak

09-05-2007, 05:06 PM

Dragons won't work. The may look and sound cool, but you might as well play good creatures, like arc slogger.

DragoFireheart

09-05-2007, 05:32 PM

Dragons won't work. The may look and sound cool, but you might as well play good creatures, like arc slogger.

Yeah. :laugh:

Sanguine Voyeur

09-08-2007, 08:27 PM

My meta is full of Ichorid and Death and Taxes, would Mogg Fanatic in be worth running main deck? I would run them in place of Sulpher Elemental, who is resoundingly bad against Death and Taxes.

Nihil Credo

09-08-2007, 08:50 PM

Fanatic and Chalice don't mix. For that matter, neither do Fanatic and Ancient Tomb.

To beat Death&Taxes, pack the usual Arc-Slogger + Razormane Masticore combo. Both of these are a serious threat to D&T, especially the former, and especially when protected by Chalice@1. If you have Pyrokinesis in the SB (and you probably should) that one is nice too, since it tends to catch them with their pants down in response to a Karakas or Stonecloaker.

To beat Ichorid combo... well, that's a bit tougher. The stone nuts would be Shard Phoenix: instant-speed Pyroclasm + Bridge removal in one package... but you need to draw the acceleration to get it out by turn 2. I've also spotted Pyrohemia in Tao's list, which is almost as effective and with a wider range of use, but suffers from the same expensiveness problem. Other than that, I'd just go with 4 Tormod's Crypt plus some number of EE in the SB (to deal with defensive Needles, also useful for zombie tokens).
An interesting choice would be Ensnaring Bridge, since Ichorid would deck itself first; but the card would be useless in pretty much every other matchup... unless you want to pack super secret tech Char-Rumbler ;)

Sanguine Voyeur

09-08-2007, 09:05 PM

I forgot about Chalice completely. I usually sideboard Crypt regardless of what I'm playing.

I'll try Shard Phoenix, I've been wanting to shove that somewhere ever since I got the promo (http://magiccards.info/jssp/en/13.html) version.

If big people stompy becomes a problem, I would totally side Bridge and Char Rumbler.

EDIT: After second thought, Sulpher Elemental kills Mangara and makes everything that isn't vulnerable to Pyroclasm, sans Silver Knight, kill able. My only other anwser to Serra Avenger is Flametongue.

Jak

09-16-2007, 01:56 AM

Has anyone been developing this deck? I have been trying to get a good list together. Anyways, the list I have been working on...

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Accel
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

Creatures
4 Arc Slogger
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Bloodrock Cyclops
3 FtK

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyroclasm
4 Earthquake

Equipment
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
4 Winter Orb
4 Magus of the Moon
7 - I am not sure about this. I really want some GY hate, so I have been working with 4 Leyline and 3 Serum Powder. I just fealt Crypt to be subpar and an uncounterable card is just good. The other use would have been 4 Trinisphere and 3 Crypt. I like Trini a lot, so I would love to fit it in the board. Sadly, I then have less room for GY hate. Thoughts?

Oh, are there any lists for Full Slogger?

Sanguine Voyeur

09-16-2007, 08:31 AM

Has anyone been developing this deck?I don't think there's much to develop, the list of efficient red creatures we can run is painfully short. Lorwyn doesn't bring much. Nova Hunter would be good if there were playable elementals.

boris23

09-16-2007, 01:00 PM

DragoFireheart

09-16-2007, 01:05 PM

Maybe we need to splash another color?

Sanguine Voyeur

09-16-2007, 01:16 PM

i think theres some better replacements for bloodrock cyclops we aren't talking about a 10th edition sealed deck or draft. sulfur elemental could be used although a bit werid you could even thoses char random but i think its better then the cyclopsCyclops is used because it's a 3/3 for three. It has the best power out put and the important toughness of three to survive Pyroclasm and Earthquake for two.

Sulpher Elemental has a toughness of only two, making your Pyroclasms and Earthquakes less advantageous for you.
Maybe we need to splash another color?I don't think another colour brings enough to the table to warrant weakening the mana base, Chrome Mox, and Seething Song.

Green brings Goyf and maybe Call of the Herd.
White doesn't bring much to the three drop.
Blue's got nothing.
Black has Negator.

boris23

09-16-2007, 01:46 PM

i dont know maybe it works i dont really like the cyclops though seems werid to play him and yes your right about the pyroclasm and that stuff. there isnt any better 3 drops instead of him?

Sanguine Voyeur

09-16-2007, 02:12 PM

i dont know maybe it works i dont really like the cyclops though seems werid to play him and yes your right about the pyroclasm and that stuff. there isnt any better 3 drops instead of him?Thoughtbound Primoc, Sulpher Elemental, and Lavacore Elemental if you like taking risks.

Thoughtbound Primoc only has a power of two and can screw you if your opponent plays Dark Confidant, Mangara of Corondor, or whatever. On the upside, it has evasion and dodges Earthquakes.

Sulpher Elemental's only draw back is the power of two. However, it does have Flash and Split Second, in addition to the advantage over white decks.

Lavacore Elemental is useless with out another creature connecting. It is the biggest choice and well above the curve.

94teen

09-16-2007, 02:13 PM

First off, I really like the deck. It's a really cool idea, and it looks like a strong metagame choice at the moment. Just a heads up, I am relatively new to the format, so if my suggestions make no sense I'm just being ignorant, and I'd love to understand why I'm wrong.

looking at the list in the original post:
Dragon Stompy 2.0 created by Tacosnape

//Mana (26)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

(Creatures - 18)
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Bloodrock Cyclops
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Razormane Masticore
1 Arc-Slogger

(Spells - 16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Rolling Earthquake
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

SB:
3 Smash
4 Boil
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blood Moon

I would be inclined to make the following changes:

-1 FTK
-1 Rolling Earthquake
-1 Jitte
-3 mountains

+1 RazorCore/Arc Slogger
+1 SoFI
+1 Demonfire/Molten Disaster
+3 fetchlands

Reasoning behind these choices:

FTK just isn't very good in the format right now. The only creature you really need it to deal with is Goyf, and by the time you play this there's a good chance it's too late. There are just better choices, and it's almost as easy for you to have 5 mana turn 2/3 as it is for you to have 4 mana, so I think it's worth the slight change in numbers.

Jitte is legendary, so I'm uncomfortable running 4 copies of it. SoFI is the best replacement you'll get for Jitte while evading the legend rule, and this is just a personal change.

I think that Rolling Earthquake, while amazing in some cases, isn't something you necessarily want to see twice a game, especially when you deal so much damage to yourself with lands and such. a singleton X spell gives you outlets for your double lands and seethings songs if you happen to draw it. Especially since you seem to tend to empty your hand pretty quickly, this seems like it'd be an amazing late game topdeck that'd steal some games you had no right winning. It's another personal touch, but I don't think it could hurt.

You're really dependent on drawing gas off the top of the deck after the first few turns, and I think some fetchlands will help that a little. I understand not wanting the full compliment, but using a few can't hurt.
All in all, it seems like a solid build of a nice deck, and the only other comment I have are some potential replacements for Cyclops:

Arms Dealer. Not the best beater, but it'd help clear the board in some situations. I don't think it's a great replacement, but certainly not too bad

Barbarian Bully. It could be worse. It's a pseudo 4/4 for 3. Even without pumping it, it trades with Piledriver and Confidants and such, and with a pump it has a chance to trade with Mongeese and 'Goyfs, as well as being a pretty decent clock on it's own. This also gives you another outlet for Squee besides Razorcore.

Bogardan Firefiend wouldn't be bad for trading with stuff. It's not too good a beater, but it provides ample opportunites for trades and 2 for 1s.

Brothers Yamazaki have the potential to be amazing in that slot, and they aren't too much worse when you don't get two...could be worth a shot?

Those aren't too bad I don't think. Definitely not what you'd like out of a 3 drop, but it could be worse.

Again, just some small suggestions. I really like the deck, and can't wait to see where it goes.

boris23

09-16-2007, 02:27 PM

yes i like the deck 2 and lavacore elemental should never be played i really hate that card. bogarden firefiend is kinda funny and i agree with the 3 jittes i usally play a deck with 4 and they sometimes get clogged up in my hand although jitte wins games but usally i end up discarding it to mask of memory and usally side one out.

from Cairo

09-21-2007, 01:22 AM

Dragon Stompy 2.0 created by Tacosnape

//Mana (26)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

(Creatures - 18)
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Bloodrock Cyclops
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Razormane Masticore
1 Arc-Slogger

(Spells - 16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Rolling Earthquake
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

Since you're going for Hellbent anyway, has it been determined if Gathan Raiders are superior to Blackrock Cyclops? On paper it certainly seems like it would be, 3 for a 2/2 is worse than Blackrock, but one can pitch Squee or spare land/mox to flip him for a 3/3 with no drawback and the potential to go 5/5. As a later game top deck he's a 5/5 for 5 which isn't anything to write home about, but seems no worse than a topdecked 3/3 for 3 that can't block.

I started picking up the cards for this, it seems like the strongest of the Chalice based decks.

Ozymandias

10-12-2007, 01:06 PM

I would really like to fit in a few trinispheres, proably 3. It's a really must-counter in the early game for basically any deck but Stax/FS/other 2 mana-land decks. Probably, I'd drop one Jitte and the 'Slogger/Masticore, but what else?

Also, Masticore is pretty awful as a topdeck, and it's pretty costly. Perhaps replace them fully with sloggers?

And in this format, FTK doesn't always have a target. Is there something else to fill that slot with, if you have a controlly/combo-y metagame?

Zork

10-13-2007, 02:16 PM

I agree with slogger being better than Masticore, because then you can also cut Squee from the deck, and Squee is terrible.

Tacosnape

10-13-2007, 03:05 PM

You don't need Squee, Goblin Nabob for Razormane Masticore to be ridiculously good.

First of all, Razormane can swing into every creature in the format and, unless that creature has first strike, live. Worried about a 6/7 Tarmogoyf? Send 3 damage into it during the Draw Step and swing in.

It should be noted that the "Version 2.0" posted above is a completely outdated list, however.

outsideangel

10-13-2007, 05:02 PM

Since you're going for Hellbent anyway, has it been determined if Gathan Raiders are superior to Blackrock Cyclops? On paper it certainly seems like it would be, 3 for a 2/2 is worse than Blackrock, but one can pitch Squee or spare land/mox to flip him for a 3/3 with no drawback and the potential to go 5/5. As a later game top deck he's a 5/5 for 5 which isn't anything to write home about, but seems no worse than a topdecked 3/3 for 3 that can't block.

I started picking up the cards for this, it seems like the strongest of the Chalice based decks.

If you're playing Pit Dragon (and probably even if you aren't) play Gathan Raiders. You typically have something you can pitch (extra mana sources, etc.) and a 5/5 for 3 is really, really good.

He's big enough to tangle with a Tarmogoyf much of the time, and that in itself is pretty significant.

Flame-Tongue, on the other hand, is very, very poor in the most important matchup around, Threshold. He rarely kills a Tarmogoyf, can never kill a Goose or Dragon or threshed Enforcer. He also has a butt of 2, so he's less than good with Earthquake. And good luck playing him against Landstill.

Jak

10-13-2007, 05:24 PM

Yeah, I have come to the same conclusions about FtK. I think it would be better as a more controlish card. Not sure which, but trinisphere could be good as a 3 of.

Ozymandias

10-13-2007, 07:52 PM

I've been testing (generic) Masticore over FTK and Arc-Slogger over Razormane Masticore, and I've been liking the results.

Because Masticore comes down a whole turn earlier sans Seething Song, there's a wider range of decisions you can make over what to pitch. In addition, Masticore survives damage-based removal better than Razormane, can pump out the same amount of damage-distributed, even- and gives you a sink for your mana when it "Hellbent"s you. It's better than FTK in that it wins Mongoose fights and at least draws Goyf ones, plus can drop on an empty board.

In the same way, Arc-Dlogger is a clock the same speed as Razormane, with the same-sized toughness, and the ability to throw at least 6-8 to the dome. The one problem is when you lack RR. For example, in a Mox+Tomb+City hand, which you can't cast slogger off of. Well, then you can imprint it, unlike Razormane.

Right now, the list i'm looking at is -4 Cyclops, +4 Gathan raiders -3 razormane, +2 Arc-slogger, -2 jitte, +3 trinisphere, -4 FTK, +4 Masticore. I like Jitte a ton, and would like to fit one more in at least.

Care to share your list with us, Tacosnape?

Cavius The Great

10-13-2007, 08:29 PM

Have any of you guys considered Fire Imp? It seems like a sexy 3 drop, no?

Jak

10-13-2007, 08:55 PM

Seems pretty bad when a lot of people are even thinking of taking FtK out of the deck.

Ozymandias

10-13-2007, 08:56 PM

The problem with Fire Imp is that, as a mini-FTK, it has the same problems as its bigger brother, excapet more so:

- It doesn't do anything versus Threshold.
- It's absolute garbage versus creatureless decks.
- As a nonblack creature with low toughness, it folds in a stiff breeze.

Not to mention that in a deck where one creature should be able to take the opponent out, that a 2/1 for 3 is uninspiring. Oh, and it dies to Rolling Earthquakes of your own, which is not good.

Jak

10-13-2007, 09:47 PM

Yes please show the list Taco.

Ozymandias

10-13-2007, 11:35 PM

What is the best number to drop Chalice at vs. Threshold?

In my testing, it seems like the number is one, for two reasons:

1) Thanks to your 8 :2:-lands and the Moxen, you have a pretty good chance of slipping it under Threshold's counter wall, especially on the play.
2) If they don't counter it, it shuts down the hidden power behind Thresh- the cantrip engine that rifles through their deck like a monkey on crack. Without Brainstorm, Ponder, Portent, etc. they have a very tough time turning draw into fat or removal.

Jak

10-13-2007, 11:39 PM

Yeah, I agree with you. I would, if you can, set it at 2 first turn. Tarmogoyf is a much bigger threat. I haven't done testing, but it seems that Goose is easier to take care of.

Ozymandias

10-14-2007, 12:32 AM

In order to set it at 2 first turn, you'd need.

:2: -Land
Mox
Mox
Red Card
Red Card
Chalice
Anything

This happens very rarely. Even then, it's not the best idea to shut down 2 mana. You hit, at best:

Tarmogoyf
Daze
Gaddock Teeg+Meddling Mage OR Fire/Ice + Werebear.
Predict

Compare to:

Ponder
Brainstorm
Portent
Serum Visions
Spell Snare
Nimble Mongoose
Pithing Needle
Swords to Plowshares OR Lightning Bolt
Sensei's Divining Top

Sure, 2 hits more threats. But here is the thing: yours are bigger. at best, they've got a 6/7 4-5 turns in. Compare that to your turn two 5/5 or 4/4. The real threat is letting them draw into/cast their removal.

Jak

10-14-2007, 12:51 AM

Seething SOng...

I am just saying that Tarmogoyf can kick this decks ass.

Phantom

10-14-2007, 07:08 PM

If it's turn one, especially on the play (so you avoid Spell Snare and Brainstorm responses) I really think there is no question: you lay Chalice at 1 (double especially if it's post board).

This deck has almost no trouble dealing with Tarmogoyf if you throw out a Chalice @1 on turn 1. Here's why:

1) He's probably going to be small-ish. They will put lands in the yard (and maybe a Daze or Predict), and we put very little in the yard (usually either Seething Song or Rolling Earthquake) so a 2/3 or 3/4 Goyf is the usually as opposed to the best case scenario after a Chalice @1.

2) We are probably going to see 0-1 of them. Goyf is only a 4-of in Thresh. The reason he feels like an eight of is they draw half their fucking deck with cantrips. Cut off that draw, cut off more goyfs. Along with this, we cut off a lot of their access to boarded cards like Krosan Grip (this is why Chalice @2 kind of sucks because it only sticks for a few turns while they dig up a Grip).

3) We have a ton of ways to deal with Goyf, especially a 3/4 or smaller. We run Ftk, RazorCore, Pit Dragon, Rolling Earthquake, Hellbent Raiders and any creature with a Jitte (which Chalice @2 cuts you off from). The reason these don't normally do the trick against Goyf is because without a Chalice @1, they plow, counter, and needle our answers (as well as grow their Goyf). Cutt off all those Spell Snares, Plows, Needles, and dig mechanism and Goyf is really no huge deal.

Chalice @2 has become a much bigger deal against Threshold, but I still usually go for @1 first.

Ozymandias

10-14-2007, 09:49 PM

I was wondering if perhaps, as sideboard tech to improve the abominable Landstill matchup, we might consider Akroma, Angel of Fury.

Oftentimes, decks will save their point removal, and wait at least the extra turn for you to discard another card to Raiders before Swordsing it. This buys you the turn you need to unmorph Akroma and beat with it.

In addition, decks will often avoid countering Ritual effects like the Songs in favor of the Threat. So you can force Akroma past a counter wall that way as well.

Once it's on the board, the control deck has two turns to find an answer or panic- less if you've snuck in any other damage.

And, it creates counterfire with Raiders, which is very nice.

I think 2 in the board is the right number.

TheDarkshineKnight

10-15-2007, 12:51 AM

For the love of all that is good and holy, will either Phantom or Tacosnape PLEASE update the deck?

Phantom

10-15-2007, 01:15 AM

For the love of all that is good and holy, will either Phantom or Tacosnape PLEASE update the deck?

Sadly I have not worked on the deck at all lately (even the last build was almost all Taco). The deck has really been hit hard by the recent meta shift. No more Goblins means our sweepers (and Jitte) are less powerful. Threshold, thanks to Tarmogoyf, can often turn FtK into a laughingstock, and I don't even know how out hate hits the new combo decks.

So basically I have et the deck aside until I have a revelation or they print something great for it. I looked at Lorwyn, but didn't see anything promising. (WotC can champion my ass).

Ozymandias

10-15-2007, 09:30 AM

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Masticore
3 Arc-Slogger
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon
3 Demonfire
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

The Threshold metagame shift has led to three major changes in the Legacy metagame.

1) Obviously, Threshold in all of its splashes, has ascended.
2) Goblins, which has a poor thresh matchup, has declined.
3) Landstill, which has a poor Goblins matchup, has ascended. And look! it has a good Thresh matchup!

In order for Dragon Stompy to be sucessful at this time, I believe that the deck need to morph, to drop some of its sacred cows (or at least move them to the board), and look to the weaknesses of Threshold. At the same time, it needs to improve its control matchup against Landstill, etc. So, what are the weaknesses of Threshold, then?

1) The mana base.
Thresh players have long understood that UGw Threshold is good vs. combo, UGr threshold is good versus aggro, and in the mirror, UG threshold is best. Why is this? Why, even when limited to a deck without Meddling Mages, Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt, does UG pull it out? Obviously, much of the success can be attributed to the maindeck Counter/Top engine prevalent in many straight UG decks. But more than that, the stronger mana base is what allows UG players to run Counterbalance, and more subtly, 4 Wasteland. That simple land can lock a UGx player out of a good 8-16 cards, depending on the build. Because in a deck with few mana sources turning just one in the right color off can spell disaster. Now, while Wasteland might be difficult to support, Dragon Stompy has access to a card just as good if not better- Blood Moon.

Wow, this is going a lot longer than I thought it would go. More later.

Ozymandias

11-08-2007, 04:03 PM

So it turns out that this deck had some serious sucess at TMLO.

THoughts?

Phantom

11-08-2007, 04:23 PM

Well it seems to me that Blood Moon effects have never been stronger (and being able to run magus, which is never dead main is great), and sweepers may have to be dropped with the lack of Goblins running around. Other than that I don't have much of an idea where the deck should go.

ReAnimated

11-08-2007, 04:25 PM

I've been testing this deck lately and I'm very impressed on how it's been performing.

First off I'd like to say Magus of the Moon is a HOUSE all versions of the deck should definatley run 4 he alone improves many match ups (*****, Truffle Shuffle , Breakfast , and even slows down TES) and he can be laid on the table on turn 1 easily.

Secondly I have been having debates on wether to run Rakados Pit Dragon or Covetous Dragon. C.Dragon's drawback is nearly nonexistent due to the fact you almost always have a artifact in play. But RP.Dragon can be game winning if you can pump it enough , I don't know if that is possible only running 18 lands but I haven't tested enough to say for sure.

Thirdly I would like to say one of this decks worst match ups is the Ichorid match up and I've tested a version with 3 Maindeck Crypts it worked pretty well even against ***** (Hosed down all the goyfs to 1/2's)

So here's the list i have been working with , I made a few changes to Parcher's list (Drastically changed the SB).

Lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

Creatures
4 Arc-Slogger
3 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Sulfur Elemental
3 Covetous Dragon / Rakados Pit Dragon

Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Tormod's Crypt

Sideboard
1 Trinisphere
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Defense Grid
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst

I haven't tested the SB much but it seems like it really helps the Combo MU and the MUC/***** MU's I'm thinking about finding room for a few pyroclasms just in case I run into Goblins and what not.

I also didn't feel like Sulfur Elemental was a good beater i would pefer making the singleton of him a Pit Dragon which I should probably do.

This deck has very few bad match ups due to Magus , Chalice , 3Sphere , and the other "lock" pieces and they are all easily dropped on early turns due to the acceleration we play. Also the Fatties and pick up some swords and start smashing face hard and strong which usually turns out to be a 3-4 turn clock. I say that people should pick up this deck and test it out it seems very promising in this meta right now.

Phantom

11-08-2007, 04:56 PM

I would highly, highly recommend not running Covetous Dragon. I'm really always surprised when someone brings him up. Artifact destruction is already a problem for this deck without turning it into a creature destruction 2 for 1. And with the advent of Shattering Spree and Ancient Grudge, there is really no amount of artifacts in play that make me feel safe (not to mention a deed blown at 2 or 3 will usually kill him). Lastly, Pit Dragon is quicker and often more deadly. Like turn two kill deadly.

I'm surprised, but not upset that people are finding Trinisphere and SoFI so useful. I would always go with 3 Jitte before any swords, but I'm okay with a 3/2 split. I really have never liked Trini against Control and Aggro Control, but have never really tested it. Making most combo matchups an auto win might be worth it though.

Tacosnape

11-08-2007, 09:20 PM

Covetous Dragon is utter assfruit. Don't play him.

Rakdos Pit Dragon, on the other hand, is a gold mine. Don't forget, he can kill as early as turn two with a great hand, and he's ungodly in the midgame.

If you want my updated list, here you go.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Blood Moon
2 Trinisphere

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg
2 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon

Explanations of updates:

Flametongue Kavu is gone, as he's no longer quite worthwhile in this format. There's very little that he kills that Slogger/Razormane doesn't.

Pyrostatic Pillar is gone in favor of Trinisphere. Pyrostatic wasn't really doing anything in a post-Solidarity universe, and the few decks it's good against, so is Trinisphere. Tarmogoyf also made Pyrostatic Pillar far worse against Threshold, bizarrely enough, as it cut down on the number of spells an opponent needed to resolve to beat you.

Pyroclasm is gone conditionally. It hits too little in this format, and it messes up your Magus of the Moon. Boarded Kegs will handle any ETW Tokens, and the size of your creatures combined with Pyrokinesis, in addition to the Slogger/Razormane abilities, should be enough to handle Goblins, although that match has weakened somewhat. If Goblins or ETW-decks are highly prevalent in your metagame, obviously, bring it back. Pyroclasm shouldn't be forgotten despite it being out of the list for the moment.

Rolling Earthquake is gone. The life loss becomes too relevant in a format where you end up racing Tarmogoyfs half the time. (I personally never liked it much anyway, but Phantom was a huge fan and it admittedly had its better moments.

Sulfur Elemental is gone. He's neat, he's cutesy, and he doesn't really do anything useful except uncounterably kill Decree of Justice tokens. It isn't worth it. The deck has no card draw, and it can't afford to have 2-toughness threats that don't singlehandedly win games (Or double as mana acceleration).

Smash is gone. Too narrow.

Hellbent is in, baby! Gathan Raiders makes the mana curve of the deck absolutely delicious, and he gets rid of extra Jittes or whatever happens to be clogging your hand up. Pit Dragon goes up to 4 at FTK's old mana curve slot, as :2::r::r: isn't significantly harder to get than :3::r:. This is the dynamic duo of the deck. Hellbent is a risky tactic, but a rewarding one.

Simian Spirit Guide is in. Gathan Raiders made him the swing card. You actually -need- to empty your hand quicker with the deck now, strangely enough. SSG speeds you up and fits the bill nicely. He's a crappy equippable threat, though, so don't get it in your head that he's going to win games with a Jitte stuck to him.

Sword of Fire and Ice is still out. This is seriously the most overrated card in all of Legacy, I swear. Now, I know SOFI is great for making your guys bigger than a Tarmogoyf, and that Jitte clogs your hand for Hellbent. However, here's why Jitte still stays 4-of in my list in favor of no SOFI's.

Razormane Masticore is still in. Double Sloggers are useless, a single Slogger can only use his ability about 3-4 times before you run out of deck, Razormane facilitates hellbent, and for the 99th time, he can swing into every creature in the entire format and almost always still live. Someone has a ridiculous 7/8 Tarmogoyf? Who cares! Zap it for three and swing!

1. Jitte is a better card than Sword of Fire and Ice.

2. Jitte is a lot easier on your mana curve than Sword of Fire and Ice. He particularly goes better following a turn three Seething Song that loads up your board with creatures. Seething Song into SOFI-Equip is an overrated play, however, because you will almost -never- have a threat down with a Seething Song still in your hand.

3. The card draw against control doesn't matter because as long as you've got one of your big threats down against control, you're okay. Therefore, either you're on the offensive still and the card draw is only there to increase your chances of recovering, or you don't have a threat and SOFI is as weak as Jitte.

4. Jitte does not interfere with Hellbent unless it's blocked via Meddling Mage. In order for it to do so, you must have a Hellbent creature and a Jitte in play, and if this is the case, you're generally in okay shape. If it -does- interfere, you can pitch it to Razormane or Gathan Raiders. If it's Needled, you can drop a second one fearlessly.

5. Jitte's not bad against Tarmogoyf either. A 5/5 with a Jitte equipped -is- going to take a Tarmogoyf down. The only difference is that it might die in the process.

...So that about covers my updates.

Jak

11-08-2007, 09:45 PM

Tacosnape

11-08-2007, 11:05 PM

I really like that list Taco. Have you tried Demonfire? Parcher seemed to have some success with it and it would be an awesome finisher or creature removal. A 2 of would be pretty good.

How has the 7 Blood Moons done? Have you considered dropping the 3 enchantments for the thrid Trini and 2 Demonfires? Anyways, here is the list I have been working. Haven't tested it, but I will once I can get the few cards I need.

I like every single part of your list except for the omission of Pithing Needle in the sideboard. I can't even begin to explain how vital this can be. Certain games, Chalice blows and Needle is ungodly. Needle skyrockets your control matchup, helps against Belcher, helps against Goblins, and gives you a fair fighting shot against Survival's Genesis/Shriekmaw lock eating your testicles.

I have not tried Demonfire at all. Actually, I hadn't even considered it until I saw Parcher's list, and while I dismissed it at first, I now think it might be worth trying in Landstill/MUC-heavy metagames. Demonfire's pretty bad as a removal spell as it gives you severe tempo losses (And your mana is already strained enough as is), but if you can wear the opponent down to any degree, it gives you the opportunity to rip it off the top of your deck, finish your opponent off, and they're left powerless to stop it. I'm not ecstatic about it, but I think it could have potential and there are worse things that could be in your deck.

7 Blood Moons, however, is format-eating. Seriously. It's as if your deck goes "DECK HUNGRY! Om nom nom Format." It wasn't until recently I cut the eighth from maindeck for a third Arc-Slogger, and I'm still debating this choice in my head. Ridiculously enough, Blood Moon doesn't just wreck control and a lot of aggro-control, it's also debatably as good against combo as Pyrostatic Pillar was. It isn't even really bad against Goblins, as it at least protects you from their manabase disruption. It can even prevent you from taking too much damage over the long haul from Tomb, or let you keep rolling into your curve if you play an early City. Not to mention, any moon effect improves your ability to pump the daylights out of a Hellbent Rakdos Pit Dragon. Om nom nom format, indeed.

It's worth noting, however, that you have to drop the curve of the deck to get away with it. This is actually another reason I don't like Demonfire, due to the mana loss off the Blood Moons.

Jak

11-09-2007, 02:35 AM

"DECK HUNGRY! Om nom nom Format."

Laughed my ass off when I read that.

Anyways, I have wanted to put needle in the board, but I just don't have it right now and that is the list I plan to play at next weeks weekly tourney. It is definitely in my deck on MWS :smile: .

I have been loving Demonfire. If you just go all out aggro and get them down to those last few life point, it is GG.

I do like Blood Moon, I just wasn't sure if main was the right place for it. I was wondering if 7 Blood Moons MD were overkill. I guess not, but I think I would rather have them SB. I think it is meta and personal preference, but I still need to test it so I guess I shouldn't speak about it.

Tacosnape

11-09-2007, 03:48 AM

I do like Blood Moon, I just wasn't sure if main was the right place for it. I was wondering if 7 Blood Moons MD were overkill. I guess not, but I think I would rather have them SB. I think it is meta and personal preference, but I still need to test it so I guess I shouldn't speak about it.

Well, obviously, it's a metagame call. There was a time when I would advocate running neither one, because Dragon Stompy was originally designed to crush Goblins, Threshold, and Solidarity back when they were the big three, and the Moons were fairly weak against two out the three. Dragon Stompy is a fairly metagame-based deck, which is why I don't rule out Pyroclasm's inclusion in sideboard.

However, nowadays, unless I knew a metagame was going to be almost devoid of nonbasic-heavy decks, I'd run a minimum of 6 - The 4 Magi, and the 2 Bloods.

It's important to realize that the Moons are virtually -never- dead cards. Even against an opponent with all basics, a Moon will increase your capacity to pump a Pit Dragon or, in case you have the library to make it relevant, throw Slogger-Shocks. Also, don't forget, any red card imprints on a Chrome Mox, and any card in your hand period will flop over Gathan Raiders.

It's also important to realize how many games you don't even have to play because of these cards. If you play 5 rounds of swiss in a tournament, I can almost guarantee you that you'll win at least three games on the strength of the Moons alone. You might win entire matches on the Moons alone. This obviously might not be true forever. Dragon Stompy is stronger than it's ever been before in Legacy and may be stronger than it will ever be again, and once people realize it's better than a fair amount of decks sitting in the DTB Forum, it might see enough play to where other decks have to adjust accordingly. But for now, Moons thoroughly own Legacy.

Tao

11-09-2007, 10:27 AM

I looks like Empty the Slogger and Dragon Stompy get closer to each other again, now that Magus of the Moon and Spirit Guide are included in the DS list. I agree that Empty the Warrens is no auto-include in the current Meta because people stuff their decks with Stifle and Explosives and so I think it is ok to run Dragon over it. That is also one of the reasons why I think that you are right about saying that the Meta is golden for these decks now.

The 2 main reasons:

- Moon effects are nothing but insane right now; when I have the choice between turn 1 Moon and turn 1 Chalice@1 against an unknown deck I'd go for the Moon
- People run Spell Snare, E. Explosives, Smother, Counterbalance and Stifle maindeck in huge quantities, all of them suck against DS/ETS

I disagree with the inclusion of Demonfire. It is bad as removal in the Goyf/Goose/Grunt era and Goyf decks are also too fast to wait for 10 Mana to burn the opponent to death.

Finn

11-09-2007, 10:44 AM

RE: DemonFire: How often is your hand empty? Often enough to have Rakdos Pit Dragon up to three I would bargain. If not, then would Kaervek's Torch be good enough. I bet not. So the question is "can you count on having an empty hand?"

Iranon

11-09-2007, 11:01 AM

I really like to play this with ungoldy amounts of disruption, with a full set of Chalices, Trinispheres and Magi + 2 Blood Moons. At the same time, I believe people are overdoing it with equipment.

Jitte is usually not needed on the fat stuff and unlikely to do much on 2/2s without relevant combat abilities like evasion or first strike. I wouldn't ever play more than 2 and rather consider more big beaters or creature control (Playing disruption pieces, then clearing their board is strong when your topdecks put them on a very short clock).

Tacosnape

11-09-2007, 11:32 AM

I disagree with the inclusion of Demonfire. It is bad as removal in the Goyf/Goose/Grunt era and Goyf decks are also too fast to wait for 10 Mana to burn the opponent to death.

RE: DemonFire: How often is your hand empty? Often enough to have Rakdos Pit Dragon up to three I would bargain. If not, then would Kaervek's Torch be good enough. I bet not. So the question is "can you count on having an empty hand?"

I disagree with Demonfire, but to play devil's advocate, the answer to "How often is your hand empty?" is "Almost always." The deck has no draw and frequently goes Hellbent around turn three or four and never looks back, the exceptions being when you're keeping a card or two around to nurse a Razormane Masticore, or when you're having mana problems.

However, Demonfire is only good when a deck with lots of card advantage and counters in hand (IOW, Landstill) has stabilized at a moderately low life total and has more counters and solutions ready than you can ever topdeck your way out of. Here is where Demonfire shines.

In every other situation imaginable, Demonfire struggles. There are regrettably some games you have to win without ever getting a consistent 5 mana on the board due to City of Traitors and Seething Song providing a less than stable manabase, and when you factor in the Moons shrinking your :2:-producing Lands to :r:-producing lands, Demonfire isn't going to hit very hard, ever. Even Cackling Flames might be better in certain circumstances, and I can't fathom running that.

Demonfire -is- versatile, however. It's a removal spell and it's uncounterable unpreventable reach, but it's just bad at doing either one.

I really like to play this with ungoldy amounts of disruption, with a full set of Chalices, Trinispheres and Magi + 2 Blood Moons. At the same time, I believe people are overdoing it with equipment.

Jitte is usually not needed on the fat stuff and unlikely to do much on 2/2s without relevant combat abilities like evasion or first strike. I wouldn't ever play more than 2 and rather consider more big beaters or creature control (Playing disruption pieces, then clearing their board is strong when your topdecks put them on a very short clock).

A full set of Trinispheres makes me cringe, considering their complete redundancy and the fact that Trinisphere and Blood Moon isn't really a combo in the same way that, say, Trinisphere and Back to Basics would be. This deck doesn't really have any effects that cut down on the full quantity of mana an opponent can produce. Unlike Stax, which can actually create locks with it, Trinisphere exists in this deck largely to stall for time at an investment of :3: and a card, and its dividends vary highly from deck to deck. By having multiple Trinispheres in your hand, you cut down on your ability to capitalize on said dividends.

Jitte offers four things the deck lacks. Lifegain, removal of small threats (Which is more necessary since Pyroclasm isn't maindecked anymore), a way to make sure your creatures can fight through bigger opposing creatures, and a way to get rid of opponent's Jittes, which can quickly spell the end for you if left unchecked. It also does so at a relatively harmless curve. On a less than stellar opening hand, it can come down turn one off a Tomb or Mountain/Mox, which will have it ready when a threat next comes down. It also goes Play-equip-swing for :4:, which can happen a fair amount on turn two and almost constantly on turn three, and curves out especially well considering you maindeck 12 3-drops and can cheat out your 4-drops or 5-drops early via Seething Song or Simian Spirit Guide.

Having -some- form of removal is important, and Jitte's the cream of the crop. Considering Pyroclasm and FTK aren't around to cover this role well anymore, it leaves Slogger/Razormane/Jitte as the extent of your removal, with possible cameos from Demonfire. Remember, your disruption pieces aren't good at stopping threats.

Iranon

11-09-2007, 01:38 PM

Tacosnape

11-09-2007, 02:18 PM

Some sort of removal is very desirable, yes... pretty much everything left me underwhelmed in practice though. Rift Bolt and Pyroclasm are rather poor. While Jitte, Earthquake and Pyrokinesis felt mediocre, I disliked the Earthquake least.

I'm not saying Jitte is wrong in the deck but I definitely wouldn't play a playset. Running even more equipment (like 3+2 split with SoF&I) also seems totally out of hte question.
A sizable amount of equipment in a deck that's not all that consistent anyway and tha features a rather limited set of efficient carriers makes me wary.

I'll concede you could probably get away with three Jittes without a whole lot of anguish. Rift Bolt I tried for awhile and didn't like (after it occurred to me that suspending a removal spell on turn one just made your opponent not play something that died to it for a turn) and Pyroclasm's not quite good enough to maindeck. I'm also iffy on Kinesis and may switch back to Clasm in board. I don't like Rolling Earthquake all that much for the sake of the life loss, though it completely rocks in certain matchups and is probably still a better choice than Demonfire.

Concerning Redundancy... with 4 Magi, 3 Blood Moons seem a greater sin than 4 Trinispheres.

They may -seem- so, but they aren't necessarily. Any of the Moons can be imprinted on a Mox or pitched to a Pyrokinesis should you run Pyrokinesis. The same can't be said of Trinisphere, meaning Trinisphere will cause you some problematic opening hands that the Moons won't. What's more, multiple Magus of the Moons actually do something, namely beating for 2, and they are far more prone to removal than Trinisphere, making having the extras of them quite useful.

What's more, Trinisphere won't singlehandedly win all that many games unless you're anticipating a lot of storm combo. You have nothing to back it up. The Moons, on the other hand, will win several games on their own.

In certain metagames, ones where I know there to be plenty of Storm Combo, I might switch out Blood Moon #3 for Trinisphere #3. The bright side of packing a total of 4 of each between maindeck and board is that it allows you a fairly customizable maindeck setup.

Phantom

11-09-2007, 02:24 PM

Agree with most of what's being said here. It seems to me that Demonfire, Trini, and Blood moon (not magus though) are meta calls as far as main vs side.

The one thing I have to disagree with Taco about (and lord knows I don't do that lightly) is Sulfur Elemental. I love this guy. I was always hesitant to run him in the sweeper version, but he's perfect now. Ignore the white creature ability. All that lets you do is trade with Grunts and kill a Decree token. The fact that he is an uncounterable instant is huge in a deck that runs Jitte. He is a Vial like combo trick all on his own. He is also possibly the best way to kill a Mongoose ever. I love dropping a Jitte on turn one, undazeable Sulfur EOT 2. Untap turn 3, equip, win. Even if he dies having an active Jitte is such a big deal for this deck, especially in the goyf meta we live in.

The two toughness can be a concern with UGr Thresh and Goyf Sligh running around, but Chalice, Trini, Blood moon, and often flash can protect him long enough to get a Jitte going. Then he can protect himself.

Everything else seems about right. I think the most moon effects i would run mainboard is 6, but it really is insane so i could be wrong. I've never tested SoFI here because it seemed like a bad idea, but i might try a 3/1 split with Jitte just to see if my notions were right.

Tacosnape

11-09-2007, 02:59 PM

The one thing I have to disagree with Taco about (and lord knows I don't do that lightly) is Sulfur Elemental. I love this guy. I was always hesitant to run him in the sweeper version, but he's perfect now. Ignore the white creature ability. All that lets you do is trade with Grunts and kill a Decree token. The fact that he is an uncounterable instant is huge in a deck that runs Jitte. He is a Vial like combo trick all on his own. He is also possibly the best way to kill a Mongoose ever. I love dropping a Jitte on turn one, undazeable Sulfur EOT 2. Untap turn 3, equip, win. Even if he dies having an active Jitte is such a big deal for this deck, especially in the goyf meta we live in.

Okay, these are all highly valid points, sans my personal feeling that nobody in their right mind plays Jotun Grunt. The EOT Elemental, Untap, Equip, Swing thing is pretty good for catching someone off guard.

Yet here's the catch. Most decks where it would be necessary or relevant to do this EOT or with Split Second aren't matchups where I keep Umezawa's Jitte in the deck. I personally prefer to board out Jitte against Threshold in favor of some combination of Crypts/Moons/Trinispheres/Powder Kegs, so the Sulfur Elemental trick would only be relevant on game 1, although I suppose at this point the strategy could simply change to keep Jitte -in-. I certainly wouldn't want it against Landstill though.

And while he's neat for taking out a Mongoose here, he's still weaker than every other creature in the deck against Threshold except SSG. Although, admittedly, he resolves where others don't.

So what would you cut, if you wanted the Sulfusaurus? One Blood Moon and one Slogger's an easy enough cut for a pair, but is it worth it to shrink the overall size of your threats?

Phantom

11-09-2007, 03:51 PM

Would you rather I brought up the merits of killing Spectral Lynx than Grunt? lol.

Okay, these are all highly valid points, sans my personal feeling that nobody in their right mind plays Jotun Grunt. The EOT Elemental, Untap, Equip, Swing thing is pretty good for catching someone off guard.

Yet here's the catch. Most decks where it would be necessary or relevant to do this EOT or with Split Second aren't matchups where I keep Umezawa's Jitte in the deck. I personally prefer to board out Jitte against Threshold in favor of some combination of Crypts/Moons/Trinispheres/Powder Kegs, so the Sulfur Elemental trick would only be relevant on game 1, although I suppose at this point the strategy could simply change to keep Jitte -in-. I certainly wouldn't want it against Landstill though.

I board out Jittes as well in the Thresh and Landstill matchups (I sometimes leave one in to add a needle target that won't be card disadvantage, but that may just be my crazy brain) but I disagree that that is the only match where the EOT play is huge. I've used it to great efficiency against FS, Goyf Sligh, GAGOMY, Burn, Goblins, and all sorts of aggro decks that have the habit of tapping out and sending all their men at me.

And while he's neat for taking out a Mongoose here, he's still weaker than every other creature in the deck against Threshold except SSG. Although, admittedly, he resolves where others don't.

Minor point here but I've always disliked Razormane in the Thresh matchup, especially UGr. The card disadvantage is annoying, he rarely kills anything with his pings, he's dazeable as hell, Goyf can often match his damage output, and in addition to Krosan Grip, they have access to Ancient grudge. The guy is nuts when working well, but that seems to happen less and less in this matchup.

So what would you cut, if you wanted the Sulfusaurus? One Blood Moon and one Slogger's an easy enough cut for a pair, but is it worth it to shrink the overall size of your threats?

I think it will be ok. Turn 1-2 three power beaters are still pretty impressive (see Mongoose, Rotting giant) and lowering the curve is always nice. Also, even if he's just a placeholder for the cards you are about to board in, he makes the maindeck more consistent and less meta dependant (which I like but the merits can certainly be argued). I'll probably start with two in your build and see how he balances vs the Trini's and Blood Moons.

Wrapping up, I can certainly see the argument against running him, I just really think he adds a dimension to the deck that really catches people off guard (bonus when players have to stop and read the freaking card you played) and strengthens our equipment.

kabal

11-09-2007, 09:48 PM

Silverdragon

11-10-2007, 07:30 PM

Okay I've probably gone insane but what are your thoughts on Mindless Automaton? Maybe as a singleton in place of a Masticore or a Blood Moon?
It is easy to cast, helps getting hellbent and helps you refill after a boardsweeper. It can also grow bigger than Tarmogoyf although it needs some time if you are already close to hellbent after casting it.

edit: quick update after some midnight testing.
First of all this deck is INSANE! Sorry for caps but someone has to say it. Mindless Automaton is -for lack of a better term- cute. You can pull some tricks with it and it is at least a 3/3 most of the time. I'd say it hovers around the Sulfur Elemental spot, maybe a bit higher. One last thing I totally underestimated Rakdos Pit Dragon. This guy is almost certainly the best creature in the deck. Better than Arc-Slogger and Razormane Masticore.

Bovinious

11-11-2007, 02:12 AM

Me and my team just built a version of this deck today and find it to be very good, the list we settled on is:

// Lands
10 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
3 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [CH] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [CH] Blood Moon

We decided that 4 Trinispheres MD and 6 Moons MD was appropriate because these cards cripple many decks in the format, and at the very least will hurt most people more than they will hurt us. The 2 MD Blood Moon's could possibly be Razormane Masticore or another bomb creature, but I'm not sure its needed. The SB is also still a work in progress, and I'm debating whether or not to include Pyroclasm SB, but it doesnt seem needed since Keg removes tokens more easily and goblins isnt too big of a threat anymore, what does every think?

Jak

11-11-2007, 05:28 AM

I think you could safely remove the Spheres in the board and fit in Pyroclasm. Your combo MU is already really good with 14 disruptive cards and a uber fast clock.

I would try to fit in RazorCore. He is a monster and helps getting Hellbent. You could probably cut a Trini and a Jitte for him. Trust me, he is a beast.

surly

11-11-2007, 10:27 AM

Has someone considered Tahngarth, Talruum Hero as another replacement for the slogger/razorcore slot? Although I havent testet him its Vigilance (good Jitte carrier)+Ping for 4 seems quite handy. Plus: much better artwork than those ugly sloggers :tongue:

Joon

11-11-2007, 12:03 PM

Here's my actual list:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [CHK] Mountain (2)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 [UD] Masticore
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 Winter Orb

I replaced the two Trinispheres with one Masticore (teh beast itself) and one Blood Moon (I had often countered/killed my first BM/MagusOfTehWin) for more consistency as I often found 3-sphere nice but cuttable (strange word).
The Side's completely reworked, Orb for raping a Landstill near you, Keg for killing these pesky EtW Tokens, Needle to shut off the most problematic card of this deck: Deed. 3-sphere against Combo...
It works pretty good.

kabal

11-11-2007, 01:20 PM

From:

[Report] Team Calosso storms Stratford!! (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7560) regarding his equipment choices.

Parcher's list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Gathan Raiders
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rakdos Pit-Dragon

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Seething Song

2 Demonfire

@Parcher :

How did your equipment ratio work out?

Did you find one better than the other?

Was 5 too much equipment at times?

How often were you able to go Seething Song into 3cc creature + jitte Or SoFaI + equip ?

I think it seemed about right. Objectively, I would say Jitte is better. But experience showed that SoFI was. Regardless of the thousands of words written on how Jitte crushes Joblins, in this deck SoFI is better. The are few players better at Legacy Joblins better than Folinus, and he actually oversideboarded against me, as he knew if SoFI lands on a Slogger, Raiders, or Dragon the game is over. And as most good Goblins players, he knows how to deal with Jitte.

Jitte is cheaper, and the life bump can be relevant, but this deck has to go balls to the wall to win most of the time and I'd rather have a more relevant clock than the life and creature protection. I would say both the split, and the count worked well.

I actually don't think I every used Song for cast+equip in the tournament, but it happened often in testing. The reason I think is that most decks can still deal more easily with a 4/5 than an artifact. So most often I cast out the equipment early as bait. If they deal with it, and you couldn't have put out a significant threat that turn, you have lost nothing. If they can't deal with it, you will be able to equip anything you cast before it swings, so even Sulfur becomes an immediate threat. This is another reason I favor SoFI. Getting in for 5+2 is far better than accumulating counters for later use that might never happen. Especially against decks that can't block because of SoFI.

An ancillary bonus is the pro-Red/Blue. Bounce is rare, but can really wreck you. And people will gladly 1 for 2 to get rid of a Slogger with Burn, or Burn+Chump. The only other relevant removal is StP, as we should crush Black decks. Since you want Chalice at one anyway, I can't see where any of this would make me switch.

I tend to agree. I still not sure about 5 slots for equip, granted I have not done that much testing.

Phantom

11-11-2007, 01:30 PM

@Phantom : Would you mind updating the initial post in this thread to reflect the current state of this deck?

I think a lot of people would be interested in the current build + SB and how to side against Threshold, Goblins, Combo and such.

I'm actually thinking about starting a new thread since so much of this one is irrelevant, but I'll at least throw Parcher's list that placed at the top.

Tacosnape

11-11-2007, 01:38 PM

Tahngarth isn't quite good enough to make the cut, though I did try him out for awhile and he could be decent from time to time. The :3::r::r: cost is incredibly taxing, and one of the high points of Razormane is that you can play him off Red Source/Tomb/City, which you'll get more often than not. Covetous Dragon would actually be better due to his mana cost being awesome, but if you've been reading you know my opinion on Dragon.

Frenetic Ogre is interesting to toy with in the Razormane Slot. He's much more synergistic with the Hellbent guys than Razormane as he doesn't require you keep a card in hand to stay alive next turn, and being able to pound for 8+ while facilitating Hellbent is pretty neat. However, I'm not sure if I can stomach :4::r: for a 2/3.

Dwarven Strike Force also works well with the Hellbent guys.

Tephraderm is my current test slot, and he's also proving interesting, as it can take down Tarmogoyf with the best of them.

I'm also trying to test out Hunted Dragon in a build with Pyroclasm and Powder Keg maindecked and Arc Slogger eating the knights. I'll let you know how this works.

SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [CH] Blood Moon

We decided that 4 Trinispheres MD and 6 Moons MD was appropriate because these cards cripple many decks in the format, and at the very least will hurt most people more than they will hurt us. The 2 MD Blood Moon's could possibly be Razormane Masticore or another bomb creature, but I'm not sure its needed. The SB is also still a work in progress, and I'm debating whether or not to include Pyroclasm SB, but it doesnt seem needed since Keg removes tokens more easily and goblins isnt too big of a threat anymore, what does every think?

Sphere of Resistance is a terrible idea in this sideboard due to the fact that it couldn't be more dyssynergistic with Trinisphere if you attached repelling magnets to the two cards. Ditto for Thorn of Amethyst. Plus, again, you have nothing to back up your mana denial.

Pyroclasm might be worthwhile to include in its slot (Or Rolling Earthquake if you feel rich), as you'll find it insanely good against more than just Goblins/Goblin Tokens. It's good against a ton of random aggro decks including Suicide Black, and Pyroclasm is the -only- thing that gives you a fighting chance in Enchantress (Though you don't have much of one anyway, truth be told.)

I think 6 moons is sort of minimal, and strangely I wouldn't advocate you cutting them for Razormane. I would however suggest your threat count is low and you'll suffer horribly if you get to a midgame.

kabal

11-11-2007, 02:06 PM

Tephraderm is my current test slot, and he's also proving interesting, as it can take down Tarmogoyf with the best of them, and Chalice-1 keeps his drawback from completely owning you against bolt-packing decks.

Tephraderm (http://magiccards.info/on/en/239.html)

4R (5), Creature - Beast 4/5
Whenever a creature deals damage to Tephraderm, Tephraderm deals that much damage to that creature.
Whenever a spell deals damage to Tephraderm, Tephraderm deals that much damage to that spell's controller.

How is that a drawback in the context you stated?

Tacosnape

11-11-2007, 02:26 PM

Tephraderm (http://magiccards.info/on/en/239.html)

4R (5), Creature - Beast 4/5
Whenever a creature deals damage to Tephraderm, Tephraderm deals that much damage to that creature.
Whenever a spell deals damage to Tephraderm, Tephraderm deals that much damage to that spell's controller.

How is that a drawback in the context you stated?

Nevermind. I'm on crack. I had this idea at about 3am yesterday and misread the card.

That certainly makes Tephraderm a potential bomb.

Phantom

11-11-2007, 02:29 PM

I've tried out some of these and here are my thoughts:

@Tahngarth: I like the Vigilance, but I don't like that he dies to a 4/5 Goyf so easily, and his special ability is FTK-like which already got cut.

@Frenetic Ogre: I tried (and you can too) to talk yourself into this guys damage and hellbent potential, but a 5cc creature that's boltable is unplayable in the current meta.

@Dwarven Strike Force: see above.

@Tephraderm: Wow. This guy looks promising. (what drawback???)

@Hunted Dragon: I think I have about as much experience with Hunted creatures in Legacy as anyone not named UrDraco, and I'm not sure I would run them in the current meta or without Brand. Counterspells and targeted removal just wreck hunted, and even if you run 8 or more ways to kill the tokens, you can't guarantee yourself one without some sort of tutor or draw. This is a pretty interesting case though since he has haste, he's the one Hunted that can win the damage race. I might try a side build that features him. Hell, Brand is even playable with Chalice since it cycles, but I'm not sure it would be worth it running only 4 Hunted critters. Anyway, I don't think he works in this build without some serious reworking.

kabal

11-11-2007, 02:31 PM

@Tephraderm: Wow. This guy looks promising. (what drawback???)

Exactly and the fact that he only has 1R in his CC is hugh.

Tacosnape

11-11-2007, 02:36 PM

I've tried out some of these and here are my thoughts:

@Tahngarth: I like the Vigilance, but I don't like that he dies to a 4/5 Goyf so easily.

Ah, but using his ability with damage on the stack will take down the Goyf as well. However, it's worth noting that this is essentially using :4::r::r::r: to destroy a Tarmogoyf that costs :1::g: and not generally a great idea.

@Frenetic Ogre: I tried (and you can too) to talk yourself into this guys damage and hellbent potential, but a 5cc creature that's boltable is unplayable in the current meta.

@Dwarven Strike Force: see above.

Despite that Bolt is hard to cast against this deck due to Chalice, I more or less agree and this is why I don't play either one of these guys despite the slight potential.

@Hunted Dragon: (Snip) I don't think he works in this build without some serious reworking.

I think you're more or less right and I don't expect a lot of great results. Plus, he's always subject to a removal spell, in which case you spent :3::r::r: and possibly some cards just to give your opponents three Knights. And there aren't enough Kegs and Clasms in the world to make that worthwhile. The plus side is that unchecked, said Dragon -outraces- the Knights. And, to momentarily revel in scrubbery, he fits the whole "Dragon Stompy" motif.

EDIT: It's worth noting that any build with Tephraderm better abandon the concept of maindecking Rolling Earthquake completely. Fortunately that's been mostly cut anyway. Pyroclasm in sideboard still shocks you for 2, but that's a minor drawback.

kabal

11-11-2007, 02:42 PM

EDIT: It's worth noting that any build with Tephraderm better abandon the concept of maindecking Rolling Earthquake completely. Fortunately that's been mostly cut anyway. Pyroclasm in sideboard still shocks you for 2, but that's a minor drawback.

The question is, what comes out for Tephraderm? Rakdos Pit Dragon? Arc-Slogger? How many Tephraderm is the right number?

Obviously anyone is going to have a touch time with this, since Tacosnape just mentioned the beat today, but worth thinking about.

Tacosnape

11-11-2007, 02:54 PM

The question is, what comes out for Tephraderm? Rakdos Pit Dragon? Arc-Slogger? How many Tephraderm is the right number?

Obviously anyone is going to have a touch time with this, since Tacosnape just mentioned the beat today, but worth thinking about.

This is the million dollar question. Tephraderm is going to have a hard time cracking the lineup.

Razormane Masticore is what would have to come out (Unless you look into cutting Equipment/Trinispheres/Moons), so he's the beast that you're comparing Tephraderm to. Despite that Razormane singlehandedly can win you games, he dies the next turn after you go Hellbent unless you re-introduce Squee, Goblin Nabob into the fold. Slogger, in my opinion, got better than Razormane once the deck became more Hellbent reliant with Gathan Raiders.

Razormane is eventually going to be phased out of the deck when a better large threat becomes available, as he's not nearly as godly as he used to be due to the deck evolving into what's essentially a Hellbent deck (Please, Wizards, give us one more Hellbent badass in Red...), but as of yet I'm not positive that threat's arrived.

Rakdos Pit Dragon and Gathan Raiders will never get cut below 4 and 4. Raiders is the best creature in the deck and Pit Dragon's a very close second. Slogger can be run as low as 2 or as high as 4, and Slogger >> Tephraderm. You can't cut SSG for Tephraderm or casting him would become even more difficult. And you certainly don't want to cut Magus of the Moon as ungodly strong as he is in the current metagame.

I think I would play Tephraderm if I expected an assload of Threshold. Of all the matches I can think of, this is the one where I would want him the most, as he can swing fearlessly into anything they have on the board and fearlessly block anything they can swing with (Except Mystic Enforcer, who waves down at Tephie as he flies overhead.) However, it's worth keeping in mind that he walks around with a large sign on his forehead that says "Daze me, plz, thx." I'll test him some more in the next few days and see how he does.

Also, don't forget that Flametongue Kavu is still waiting in the wings, eager to reclaim his spot in the deck with his delicious mana curve and smallguy-eating ability.