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Dxfiler
10-02-2006, 06:16 PM
I posted this on mutliple legacy sites/sections because I feel the topic is worth discussion.

If you play an established deck, you are able to pilot something proven that has a high power level. You can also usually get by making mistakes with more established decks, as they tend to be forgiving. Goblins is a great example of this.

Going an established deck route has obvious cons associated with it. The biggest being that your maindeck and sideboard are known to the general public. Even with a few tweaks, any good player will be able to rattle off everything you play with close to 100% accuracy. Due to this, people often know how to play against establish decks and have specific hate associated for those decks, depending on its given popularity. In a degernerate format, this won't matter because all the hate in the world won't stop a broken deck. Old type 2/affinity is the best example. Luckily, the days of one broken deck ruining a format seem to be behind us, which is more good than bad for someone who plays an established deck in legacy. The format is wide open with lots of decks, meaning less chances to be hated against. If you do get paired up against someone with exceptional hate for your specific deck, then that could be a problem. Generally speaking, players of established decks don't need to worry about that because they are in the driver's seat. People have to react to whatever tier one deck they're playing, and the chances to beat out the hate increase significantly when it's a good player piloting a good deck.

Me? I choose to go rogue, at least when legacy is concerned. Going with an unknown archtype has obvious benefits, the biggest being people often dismiss whatever you're running and don't give it a second thought if they've never seen it played in the format before. When registering my deck in the open for The Mana Leak, I heard/saw multiple people laughing and rolling their eyes as they walked by while I laid out scab clan maulers and fireblasts.

This was great for me. If people have it in their heads that certain archtypes are unplayable, they traditionally will play worse against it than if it were an established archtype. I've won multiple matches off this principle alone, and it's certainly the biggest reason to 'go rogue.'

Another big advantage for rogue is the 'unknown' factor. People are unsure of what is coming at them often times with a rogue deck, so even if they respect what they are up against, they will usually have a tough time playing against unknown cards. Espcially if the rogue player is gunning for particular established decks.

Disadvantages for going rogue are plenty. A common problem for rogue deckbuilders is that they often have to hedge their bets when piloting a specific rogue deck. You can prepare for some tier one decks, but usually not all of them. Traditionally, the decks with the best odds against tier 1 decks are other tier 1 decks. This is where metagame peditictions come in big for a rogue pilot. They can play a specific unestablished deck for a given tourney if they feel the matchups expected to show up are favorable.

The obvious problem with this is that format is so open, so you have to either realllllly be sure that a large portion of a specific archtype is showing up, or you just cross your fingers and hope things fall your way. Roland's UG madness is a good example of this. He knew the deck inside and out, he had a solid list, and he knew what his bad matchups were. One of his worst was goblins, and although that's a very popular deck, if he never faces it his odds of winning increase dramatically. It's a risk he was willing to take. The result? He never played against it, he won legacy worlds. The coinflip of this is that now his list is known, and people can now play better against it and prepare for it due to the massive press he received.

Of course many people go rogue so they can play their beloved deck, whatever it may be. People love their petcards. For some people it's Aquamoebas, others its Kird Apes. The point is that rogue players often don't care about their odds, they just want to play with their cards regardless of outcome.

The majority of competitive players go with established archtypes because they don't care about playing with specific cards. They just want to win. That's perfectly respectable, and often leads to good results. Just realize that this in turn causes rogue decks to be viable. Hence, it's all cyclical.

In conclusion, you really should play with what works for you. Don't play an established deck just because it's established,but also don't play a rogue deck just because it's unknown. Figure out what you're comfortable with and why you want to play in a specific tourney. That always leads to the best results.

- Dave Feinstein

The Lotus Eater
10-02-2006, 06:34 PM
One pro for playing an established deck is that they work... They are established decks for a reason.

umbowta
10-02-2006, 10:30 PM
If people have it in their heads that certain archtypes are unplayable, they traditionally will play worse against it than if it were an established archtype. I've won multiple matches off this principle alone, and it's certainly the biggest reason to 'go rogue.'
That is certainly one of my favorite reasons to "go Rogue". I especially enjoy playing with excessive amounts of white bordered cards to enhance that effect even further, when I'm piloting a Rogue deck. My Zoo deck contains no foils and all white bordered land except fetchlands. The Kird Apes are Revised, as are the Lightning Bolts (well, 2 are unlimited).

On the flip side of that coin is my "established deck", which is becoming more and more "pimped" by the week. Foils, Foriegn Black Borders, Portal, Foil Unhinged Islands. The only white borders in the deck are the trops and tundras which I would love to replace with French black borders.

While I was typing I thought of one huge con when it comes to playing a rogue deck...the alomost complete lack of others who play the deck to discuss strategy with. You end up going completely alone with many decisions on card inclusions. It's much safer to jump on the bandwagon and play the tier one decks...especially in a subculture that sterotypically lacks individuals with self confidence.

Bongo
10-03-2006, 12:40 PM
A very good post indeed.

One question though: Doesn't the advantage of going rogue diminish when a smart opponent can figure out what you play?

After all, the "playable card pool" isn't as big (this is even more true in Vintage) and most rogue strategies have similarities to Tier1 decks.
For example your RG Beats deck was rogue, but a clever opponent might figure out pretty quickly your aggro-gameplan and the contents of your deck, allowing to plan accordingly.

Deep6er
10-03-2006, 02:37 PM
An interesting point to playing rogue decks also entails that if the rogue decks are good enough, then they could easily (with time) become a tier 1 deck. Damn, I'm so cool (just figured I'd throw that in there). A notable "rogue" deck that lost the "rogue" classification is, obviously, Solidarity. As I continued to win with the deck and other people started to pick it up and play it, it lost the "rogue" status and coincidentally also became tier 1. Again, damn, I'm cool. Just figured that would be an interesting point.

quicksilver
10-03-2006, 02:44 PM
An interesting point to playing rogue decks also entails that if the rogue decks are good enough, then they could easily (with time) become a tier 1 deck. Damn, I'm so cool (just figured I'd throw that in there). A notable "rogue" deck that lost the "rogue" classification is, obviously, Solidarity. As I continued to win with the deck and other people started to pick it up and play it, it lost the "rogue" status and coincidentally also became tier 1. Again, damn, I'm cool. Just figured that would be an interesting point.

God damn you are fucking lame.

Deep6er
10-03-2006, 05:11 PM
God damn you are fucking lame.


You're just jealous that nobody likes RGBSABWMF2K6FTW. Everybody hates that deck. Jerkface.

M.Maddox
10-04-2006, 11:49 AM
An interesting point to playing rogue decks also entails that if the rogue decks are good enough, then they could easily (with time) become a tier 1 deck. Damn, I'm so cool (just figured I'd throw that in there). A notable "rogue" deck that lost the "rogue" classification is, obviously, Solidarity. As I continued to win with the deck and other people started to pick it up and play it, it lost the "rogue" status and coincidentally also became tier 1. Again, damn, I'm cool. Just figured that would be an interesting point.

That's freaking hilarious.

I agree with Dave, I love rogue, and play nothing but rogue. If I have to resort to someone else's decklist to win in competitive magic, there is no longer a reason for me to play the game.

SillyMetalGAT
10-04-2006, 12:19 PM
Another point is that its not always someone elses decklist. I mean you say Threshold, and there are a million ways you can take that deck. Ive seen Thresh with and without Mental Notes, Thresh decks in every color, Thresh with and without fatties, Hell, Thresh with Isochron Scepters! They're all very different, but they all fall under the term "threshold". A Lot of established deck names are pretty umbrella terms. I mean look at Goblins. You ask a kid what deck he's playing and he says Goblins. Does he pack StP? Or does he maindeck Hooligan for Needle hate? Or is he staying Mono Red? Does he play Lightning Bolt? Not every deck is the same. Hell theres 3 different kinds of decks when you mention Threshold, Goblins, or Affinity. Not to mention the countless other deck archetypes. Survival? Oh man I get a headache thinking of the different kinds of Survival decks. Half the fun of Legacy is that EVERY deck has a unique way to take it.

quicksilver
10-04-2006, 12:20 PM
You're just jealous that nobody likes RGBSABWMF2K6FTW. Everybody hates that deck. Jerkface.

Anyone know how many Dave Gearharts it takes to screw in a lightbulb?


Just 1, he holds the lightbulb stationary and the world revolves around him.

SillyMetalGAT
10-04-2006, 12:25 PM
Anyone know how many Dave Gearharts it takes to screw in a lightbulb?


Just 1, he holds the lightbulb stationary and the world revolves around him.

Amen! But you can't blame him. All Combo players are arrogent assholes when they win on their opponents turns :tongue:

Silverdragon
10-04-2006, 03:42 PM
Another point is that its not always someone elses decklist. I mean you say Threshold, and there are a million ways you can take that deck. Ive seen Thresh with and without Mental Notes, Thresh decks in every color, Thresh with and without fatties, Hell, Thresh with Isochron Scepters! They're all very different, but they all fall under the term "threshold". A Lot of established deck names are pretty umbrella terms. I mean look at Goblins. You ask a kid what deck he's playing and he says Goblins. Does he pack StP? Or does he maindeck Hooligan for Needle hate? Or is he staying Mono Red? Does he play Lightning Bolt? Not every deck is the same. Hell theres 3 different kinds of decks when you mention Threshold, Goblins, or Affinity. Not to mention the countless other deck archetypes. Survival? Oh man I get a headache thinking of the different kinds of Survival decks. Half the fun of Legacy is that EVERY deck has a unique way to take it.

That's true but if you look at it another way, let's say your opponent played a first turn Mountain into Vial or fetch Tropical into Cantrip you can name almost half of their deck immediately so the few metagame slots aren't that important. I know against your deck they could mean everything but you could also get a huge advantage simply by knowing what some of their keycards are.

Another point that wasn't discussed yet is sideboarding against rogue decks. Of course some of them suffer splashdamage (like Reanimator at the moment) but who runs much artifact hate these days? A good Affinity or Stax deck could easily win some tournaments before everyone starts packing the Energy Fluxes and stuff again.

herbig
10-04-2006, 04:05 PM
I think what should be kept in mind is that while running something unknown can be an advantage, that doesn't outweigh playing worse cards. A "rogue" deck should be one that is designed with good cards and a good strategy in mind, and maximizes the synergies between your less played cards and the rest of your deck. Playing bad cards because your opponent won't know how to play against them is a poor idea. And, playing an old deck that can't compete anymore isn't going rogue, its not being able to let go of the fact that its' time has come and gone. Examples include stompy, mono red sligh, burn, enchantress, ect.

An optimized list is another pro to playing an established deck. Goblins, Threshold, Solidarity, IGG have all been tested and played extensively by their creators/supporters and their work on the deck is unveiled with every new tournament. Playing a "rogue" deck that you've thrown together, with little to no testing rests a lot of the burden on your skills as a player, whereas you can maximize your skills playing something that is proven to work.

kabal
10-04-2006, 05:35 PM
Amen! But you can't blame him. All Combo players are arrogent assholes when they win on their opponents turns :tongue:

So can RG Beats, but they typically are very mellow, nice to hang around people.

herbig
10-04-2006, 06:38 PM
So can RG Beats, but they typically are very mellow, nice to hang around people.

Thats the humbleness that comes with losing so often.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
10-04-2006, 06:44 PM
An interesting point to playing rogue decks also entails that if the rogue decks are good enough, then they could easily (with time) become a tier 1 deck. Damn, I'm so cool (just figured I'd throw that in there). A notable "rogue" deck that lost the "rogue" classification is, obviously, Solidarity. As I continued to win with the deck and other people started to pick it up and play it, it lost the "rogue" status and coincidentally also became tier 1. Again, damn, I'm cool. Just figured that would be an interesting point.



Holy shit, are you still alive? I thought you died in February. I must've been checking all the tournament top 8's wrong or something. I had also heard you went to Honolulu, but I stopped checking the player roster and lost hope around the time I got to the 0-X bracket and still hadn't seen your name. Anyway, good to know. I'm glad you're coming back out of retirement apparently.

Deep6er
10-04-2006, 07:20 PM
Holy shit, are you still alive? I thought you died in February. I must've been checking all the tournament top 8's wrong or something. I had also heard you went to Honolulu, but I stopped checking the player roster and lost hope around the time I got to the 0-X bracket and still hadn't seen your name. Anyway, good to know. I'm glad you're coming back out of retirement apparently.

Hey, this is awesome coming from the guy who CAN'T top 8 at another event for the next 2 years. Good job jerkface.

herbig
10-04-2006, 07:28 PM
Hey, this is awesome coming from the guy who CAN'T top 8 at another event for the next 2 years. Good job jerkface.

Your lucky you aren't sitting across from him.

AnwarA101
10-04-2006, 07:32 PM
Amen! But you can't blame him. All Combo players are arrogent assholes when they win on their opponents turns :tongue:

Even when they don't win on their opponents turn. Ofcourse getting wrecked by Gro or Red Death puts them in their place.

Shadow
10-04-2006, 08:45 PM
Even when they don't win on their opponents turn. Ofcourse getting wrecked by Gro or Red Death puts them in their place.

It's when they beat Gro or Red Death that makes them arrogant.

My Name Is Scott
10-05-2006, 01:38 AM
Your lucky you aren't sitting across from him.
So is Jack's dignity.

SpatulaOfTheAges
10-06-2006, 11:30 AM
And, playing an old deck that can't compete anymore isn't going rogue, its not being able to let go of the fact that its' time has come and gone. Examples include stompy, mono red sligh, burn, enchantress, ect.

That's a sweeping statement that can be used to justify dismisiveness of any deck that resembles any past deck even slightly(read:any deck).

Watcher487
10-06-2006, 12:15 PM
And, playing an old deck that can't compete anymore isn't going rogue, its not being able to let go of the fact that its' time has come and gone. Examples include stompy, mono red sligh, burn, enchantress, ect.


That's a sweeping statement that can be used to justify dismisiveness of any deck that resembles any past deck even slightly(read:any deck).

The bigger problem is that alot of people haven't thought about what is available to make these decks better, but when it does pop into the woodwork, it can be a nasty surprise. IE 9-land Stompy from Legacy Champs, no one expected it and to make matters worse he had an optimized deck list.

Really this format doesn't really have a 'rogue' area unless your really really stuck on this whole 'tier' system of grading decks. Any deck in this format can be adjusted to have a better match-up against a deck and alot of players are truly incompinant(sp(sorry P_R)) with what is going on and don't know how and what to play vs. various decks.

This format should really be a format for 'rogue-ish' style decks. With so many decent decks all viable, no one should really complain that a 'random' deck wins a major tourney. The problem that happens though is that what people describe as 'random' become decks not worth time testing against or even playing in the first place since there isn't anything going behind it anyway. It's these sort of things that really prevent this format from really becoming anything really important in the eyes of alot of people. And the 'good' 'random' decks that can be optimized are just shunted off to the last page and nothing is ever heard of it again, until it wins another tourney.

umbowta
10-06-2006, 01:18 PM
I went Rogue last night at Pandemonium's weekly Legacy event and it paid off with a 1st place finish. The Zoo wins again. Here's a link to the Deck and Primer I wrote up. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28426.0 The current list is posted at/near the end of the thread, currently.

emidln
10-06-2006, 02:02 PM
That's not rogue. Until the Lotus tournament, I wasn't aware you owned any decks that weren't Zoo. You've been playing that for. ev. er. And it's been effective for. ev. er. When the entire meta should expect it, it isn't exactly rogue.

umbowta
10-06-2006, 03:20 PM
That's not rogue.
I havn't touched it for over 2 months, as evidenced by the dust I had to wipe off the deck box. You're just bitter because you haven't been able to beat the deck in match play frigg. in. ...ever.


And it's been effective for. ev. erJust wait until you see it in action...with Grunts...maindeck! It's A. maze. ing! Goblins are too slow to keep up with me...as evidenced by me not giving a shit when my top 4 opponent dropped a first turn Lackey. He bragged that he put up 25 points of damage on t4 in the previous round. I swung through it with a double Rancored Kird Ape. When he gempalmed the Ape after combat damage, I dropped Grunt and Rancored him up...he never even got to untap for turn 4. ...[edit] just like what happens when I play you. [end edit]