[Deck] Black 5/3

[Goblin Snowman]

Let me start out by clairifing that this is not Black Stompy (Blumpkin). Due to 5/3 being dead, and since their builds are White as opposed to Black/Red/Blue (Now I want to build a Green Stompy :frown:), I made a new topic. A brief explanation of the deck - 5/3 is an Aggro Prison deck, that uses various artifact fat, such as Juggernaut, the decks namesake, to Phyrexian Warbeast to Su-Chi. Now, there a a few ways of making this deck, with several different splashes, white for Jotun Grunt and E. Angel, Blue for Sea Drake/TFK/FoF/Serendib Efreet, and my way, the Black Splash. Now lets look at the cards you get for this - the largest, in my mind, being The Abyss, which helps in the decks more difficult MUs, Mid-Range Aggro. The creatures you get are Phyrexian Negator, Razorjaw Oni (Faerie Stompy plays Oath of Scholors!), Drinker of Sorrow, Grinning Demon/Plague Sliver/Juzam, and things that are pretty bad with Ancient Tomb like Flesh Reaver, Ebon Drake (Iggy Pop loves you) and things that are just crazy like Horobi, Death's Wail (Haven't tested him yet, likely is bad). I have had good success with this deck in a semi formed meta (meaning that rounds 3-4 you face real decks), and am wondering if anyone has any advice.

The Deck
4x Phyrexian Warbeast
4x Juggernaut
2x Razormane Masticore
1x Razorjaw Oni
4x Phyrexian Negator
1x Synod Sentarion
16 Creatures

3x Trinisphere
3x Tanglewire
4x Chalice of the Void
10 Prison Pieces

4x Sword of Fire & Ice
3x The Abyss
7 Other Stuff

4x Mox Diamond
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traiters
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
2x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
27 Mana

Board
3x Sphere of Resistence
3x Leyline of the Void
4x Plague Spitter
2x Persecute
2x Stench of Evil
1x Trinisphere
MUs
Iggy Pop - Favorable (65-70%)
When I played this, my games were
G1 He goes land, I got CoTV @ 1/0, he BSes, misses land drop. I waste. He scoops.
G2 He goes land, go. I got 3Sphere, ge BSes, go. I go Jugs, 4 turns I win.

These seem to be favorable, depending if you can find some Hate. 1x Chalice or 3Sphere backed with a creature should win. Post board it gets better with 7 Cards coming in.

Goblins - Favorable (65-70%)
Best. game. ever.
T1 Cotv @1, T2 @2, T3 @3. He scooped to a creature.
With Chalice to stop their broken Accel, it gets better. "Goblins Broken Start" can be dealt with if you have the creatures to block, otherwise, it heads south, like it does to every other deck. The Abyss can destroy their tempo and card advantage, but don't rely on it entirely, a Siege-Gang can still kill you pretty fast. Oh, and SOF&I wins.

Solidarity
LACK OF TESTING
From what it looks like, with 4 Ports, 3 Tanglewire, 3 Trinisphere and 4 CotV, coupled with a pretty fast clock, it doesn't seem like it should be that bad. Plus the whole 6 more Autowin cards w/o bounce has to hurt.

Thres - Great MU, possibly the best (85%+)
Chalice, 3Sphere, The Abyss, Wasteland, Port, Fat, Tanglewire, SOFI, every card is a must counter. Bringing in Stench against White to deny the Pikula helps, and possible SOR. Mulling to a Leyline is acceptable, but they will board in DE if they have them.

Pikula - Even (50%)
The manabase in this deck is shaky without their help, if you don't get out of the gates they can shut you down in a hurry. Also, the deck is a little threat light, meaning that if they Swords and Vindicate you 2 guys, you might be sunk. However, it helps that their guys only make Speed Bumbs when they get to the Combat Zone. Make sure to keep them off white if possible)

Loam Control - Poor (35-50%)
If they're running Confinment, Chalice at 2. That is one of your only outs against these decks, and it shuts off DE if they main it. If they drop Moat, GG. Humility can be dealt with, Moat.... not so much. Post Board helps with Leyline and Stench.

Rifter (50-55%)
This I have only had a little bit of testing on. The games came down to Chalice, as always, @ 2 and 1. Your board is really good though. Stench + Leyline (dragon) + Persecute. Remember, Equiptment gets around Humility.

Fast Aggro (Sligh, Elves, ect) - Good (65-70%)
Chalice is MVP. Dropping out huge things with large butts to put a stop to their rush, and with The Abyss to eat them alive, you should win. There are always times where you just get overwhelmed though.

Mid-Range (RGSA, Madness, 43 Land, XXX Stompy) Medium-Poor (45-55%)
Good I hate Troll and how Abyss targets. Why can't have they errated that like Drop of Honey?! Anyway, these decks aren't hurt as much as their faster counterparts. Their creatures can trade/recur, so you can get hurt by them in the long term. Just end the game as fast as possible

Does anyone have any useable advice on the maindeck/sideboard?

Up to date list
4x Phyrexian Warbeast
4x Juggernaut
2x Phyrexian Scuta
1x Razorjaw Oni
4x Phyrexian Negator
1x Synod Sentarion
16 Creatures

3x Trinisphere
3x Tanglewire
4x Chalice of the Void
10 Prison Pieces

4x Sword of Fire & Ice
2x The Abyss
1x Jitte
7 Other Stuff

4x Mox Diamond
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traiters
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
2x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
27 Mana

Board
3x Sphere of Resistence
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Plague Spitter
1x The Abyss
2x Persecute
2x Stench of Evil
1x Trinisphere

[The Lotus Eater]

Can you fit dark ritual in there anywhere? Seems you can go broken really fast with that in the deck. Of course, you'd have to add a few more swamps, I suppose.

[DampingEngine]

I've played this archetype quite a bit playing both a more aggro oriented deck than your build and a more prison oriented build than yours. Surprisingly, I had way more success with the aggro build, making top 4 of both tournaments I played in, while doing terribly with the stax-like build (I'm not even going to bother posting it). Here is the aggro version:

4x Phyrexian War Beast
4x Mercenary Knight
3x Phyrexian Negator
4x Graveborn Muse
3x Phyrexian Scuta
4x Nekrataal

4x Persecute

4x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Sword of Light and Shadow
4x Tangle Wire

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Peat Bog
12x Swamp

SIDEBOARD:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Dystopia
4x Oppression
3x Chalice of the Void

I loved Peat Bog every game I got it, and think it's superior to Dark Ritual and Chrome Mox in this deck. However, it does make maindeck Chalice less viable. My friend who has also played around with the archetype says that Persecute is one of the top reasons to run this deck. I guess you have it in your board.

The only stax piece I ran main deck was Tangle Wire, which was MVP (you should run 4 definitely). When I ran other stax pieces, it seemed to throw away my game vs aggro, which is probably an obvious result. In fact, I found the matchup against Goblins to be very tough with even the above decklist, and I'm very surprised you beat it with your list. I think if you tested it extensively against a good goblins player, you would find it to be a much tougher matchup than you think. For example, Chalice is actually a pretty terrible card against Goblins because if they play first, they don't even need to cast spells after turn 1 to win, much less 1cc spells. Considering you got 3 Chalices in the early turns of the game, I think it's safe to say that was a very atypical draw and doesn't mean much for the matchup in general. I also think that Abyss type effects are pretty bad against Goblins because they come into play too late and they have no trouble playing more than 1 creature per turn. Nekrataal was great against them though, killing a specific creature and providing a fantastic blocker as long it survives. I honestly think that Nekrataal is one of the most underplayed cards in 1.5, and it really shines in this deck.

I also notice that you have few enough black sources that you would never draw one some games unless you aggressively mulled into one. However, tomb aggro decks can't afford to mulligan aggressively because of the high number of expensive cards (the main reason I choose not to play them anymore) so I think you should change this. I also found during testing that the deck really revolves around 3 drops and needs to play as many of them as possible. You have about as many as I do although one is different, so that's good. Mercenary Knight is kind of iffy anyways, although a 2nd turn Knight in my deck was better than almost any other play, and often you're pitching a useless Negator or something similar to them.

Graveborn Muse is something you really should test if you up the number of black sources. It's like a bigger Confidant that you lose less life to. Obviously Confidant is unviable in this deck, but Muse is outstanding.

The equipment setup I ran was based around equipping my 3 drops on the turn they lost summoning sickness, so Jitte was better than Sword. I also think that Jitte is a better card than Sword in general, although a lot of people disagree. Sword of Fire and Ice is probably better than Light and Shadow in most situations, I was just being funny since I have Mercenary Knights and lot of life loss.

In any case, this is yet another deck that beats Threshold pretty consistently. If people start playing tomb aggro more often, Threshold might end up being a worse choice, although Goblins would become a better choice bringing us full circle. It's almost impossible to build a tomb aggro deck that wins more than it loses vs Goblins because you have Tomb and they have Wasteland, and you rarely have a turn 1 answer to Lackey on the play, and almost never do on the draw. I haven't tested Mox Diamond (I was fooling around with Chrome Mox, which is bad) so the possibilty of turn 1 beef might help, although you would need more than just 4 War Beasts to make that happen more than once in a great while (Negator obviously doesn't count), so maybe Mercenary Knight is better than it seems.

[Clark Kant]

Goblin Snowman I have to ask, why aren't you just running Black Stompy's creaturebase?

//Threats
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Su-Chi

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Jitte/Tangle Wire


over your build...

You could squeeze in 3 Abyss in the build somewhere if you really want, though honestly, the Abyss seems very very slow, almost like a win more card.

So why isn't Jitte better than The Abyss. Jitte is faster, more versatile, picks off creatures just as well, but also deals damage and gains you life if your opponet is racing you which this deck deck desperately needs, all while protecting your threats from removal.

Razormane seems bad since you have little card draw either.

Besides you already have SOFI and Chalice, I'm not sure you need so much aggro hate.

Phyrexian Scuta seems better than all of your 1 ofs. Those very very rare occasions where you can't afford life loss, you can simply not pay the Kicker cost too.

[jamest]

Goblins - Favorable (65-70%)
Best. game. ever.
T1 Cotv @1, T2 @2, T3 @3. He scooped to a creature.
With Chalice to stop their broken Accel, it gets better. "Goblins Broken Start" can be dealt with if you have the creatures to block, otherwise, it heads south, like it does to every other deck. The Abyss can destroy their tempo and card advantage, but don't rely on it entirely, a Siege-Gang can still kill you pretty fast. Oh, and SOF&I wins.
I am skeptical of your matchup estimate here. Your chances of getting 3 Chalices by turn 3 is about 1% and that's before factoring your chances of also getting 6 mana by turn 3. Being more realistic, what are your chances of getting just 1st turn Chalice? Well, you go first 50% and you get Chalice 40%, so at most, 1st turn Chalice only helps 20% of the time. Assuming Goblins doesn't go 2nd turn Tin Street Hooligan, how do you secure the other 80% of your matches? Because once Vial or Lackey resolves, Goblins dodges your disruption. Juggernaut, Warbeast, and Razormane all die to Hooligan and Incinerator (and Matron and Ringleader draw more). Negator is unuseable. Besides, Goblins has the biggest creature in the matchup, Piledriver.


Solidarity
LACK OF TESTING
From what it looks like, with 4 Ports, 3 Tanglewire, 3 Trinisphere and 4 CotV, coupled with a pretty fast clock, it doesn't seem like it should be that bad. Plus the whole 6 more Autowin cards w/o bounce has to hurt.
What autowin cards? My guess, their plan is to Cunning Wish for Rebuild and combo off right after. And in the meantime, instant speed dodges Port and Tanglewire.

[Goblin Snowman]

Jitte is going to be given alot of consideration, but due to the fact that The Abyss flat out wins versus roughly 30% of the Format, it'll tkae alot to drop.

Su-Chi - Sucks. I'm going to say it. If I want a 4/4 for 4, I'll take Synod Sentarion, who's drawback only exists with Meltdown. Lose 4 Life! Sounds great!

Scuta - Umm... really until right now I thought he cost BB2. Ok, yeah, he's going in. Like yesterday.

Razormane, dispite personal liking, is horridly slow, but he's such a bomb against everything. Not being able to empty your have with him makes him pretty bad. I'm likely going to take out these for Scutas. In view of the now 7Black creatures I'll board a copy of The Abyss for a Jitte. I just hate Pithing Needle so much. It is good, though, and it still kills stuff.

Chalice isn't just aggro hate, it's everything hate!

@Damp Engine - I like being able to beat Combo with regularity. Your's is one of the Midrange Aggro decks that The Abyss would really shine against. Peat Bog is up for consideration though.

@Lotus Eater - Dark Rit sucks with CotV/Trinisphere. It was one of the warly lures to the color but it didn't fit with the deck achetype.

[Clark Kant]

I agree with you on Synod Centurion over Su-Chi but it's close, people were going back and forth on those two cards over in the Black Stompy thread.

I think both cards are better in this metagame than Juggernaut though. Whether we are talking about Troll Ascetic, Mongoose, Bolt, Rotting Giant, Anurid Brushhopper, Burning Tree Shaman, Rogue Elephant or something else.

You also have no control over when Juggernaut attacks. You are forced to open yourself up to an alpha strike because you can't hold him back to act as a blocker.


"Goblins Broken Start" can be dealt with if you have the creatures to block, otherwise, it heads south, like it does to every other deck.

Precisely the suckiest thing about Juggernaut, it can't stay back to block and prevent an alpha strike when it needs to.


Also, I don't think anyone is saying Dark Ritual is great in the mid-late game. It's not used as a mid-late game card, in any deck.

The thing that makes it good IMHO is it's powerhouse brokeness early game.

It lets you more easily cast Chalice at 1 on turn one, or cast Negator turn 1 vs. combo and control.

It's lets you cast any card in your deck on turn two. Getting a 4/4 turn two against goblins is the difference between winning and losing that matchup.

[jazzykat]

Graveborn Muse is something you really should test if you up the number of black sources. It's like a bigger Confidant that you lose less life to. Obviously Confidant is unviable in this deck, but Muse is outstanding.


Holy random tech batman! I just looked at her. She is a walking phyrexian arena for an extra colorless! What a beating!

[Goblin Snowman]

.
You also have no control over when Juggernaut attacks. You are forced to open yourself up to an alpha strike because you can't hold him back to act as a blocker.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying Dark Ritual is great in the mid-late game. It's not used as a mid-late game card, in any deck.

The thing that makes it good IMHO is it's powerhouse brokeness early game.


But this deck doesn't want that explosiveness. What would I drop? A lock piece, making my game against Combo that much worse? A creature in a creature light deck? I'm not running it for the same reason I'l not running Skittering Horror and Flesh Reaver, they suck in the midgame, which is when this deck wants to win. The deck runs 7 2 mana lands and 4 moxes, that's already explosive enough for most of it. Jugs is in there for Combo MUs, while not being bad agaisnt Aggro and Control. The extra turn matters alot. At one point you say the reason to not play Jugs is because his explosiveness not mattering, then you advocate Dark Rit? Which is it?

Graveborn is my own hidden Tech (see Deadguy Ale thread). A 3/3 for Double Black might make it in. I would have to up the swamp count, and she might randomly kill me, but, drawing an extra card a turn is pretty sexy. The only problem is without Scuta I get myself down to around 10 life without an aggro deck even helping. I'd either play Scduta, or Muse, likely not both.

[Clark Kant]

Juggernaut isn't explosive. How is paying 4 mana to get your creature killed by Bolt, Troll Ascetic, Mongoose, Rotting Giant, Anurid Brushhopper, Burning Tree Shaman, Rogue Elephant or something else explosive. War Beast and Synod Centurion can be held back to block Negator or Lackey or some other creature, and beat when you're at the advantage. Jugs is forced to attack into something that will kill it.

Dark Ritual is explosive because it lets you drop disruption faster, thus helping you against combo, or aggro or even control. A first turn Chalice or Trinisphere off of Ritual to stop their Lackey or Vial play is explosive, explosive enough to possibly warrant playing even if it's a bad topdeck. A 5/3 for 4 mana isn't. I'm not saying that Ritual is an autoinclude you may be right to cut it, just that it shouldn't be dismissed without any testing.

[Goblin Snowman]

I have tested it. I already said it was one of the original things that lured my to Black 5/3. With a Total of 7 Cards that almost always make it useless (color fixing is useless), and since it is already bad in a deck with very little Card Advantage, Mox Diamond is most of the time better. I would not run a both Mox and Rit, and, to me, Mox seems better. It color fixes, allows for an explosive start, and sticks around. Your T1 3Sphere looks worse when you had, say, a Swamp, Port, and Wasteland, and one gets Wasted. I would rather go Land Mox CotV @ 1 and not burn. Juggeranut is good, as I said
"Jugs is in there for Combo MUs". He is not good against Sligh, which the deck steamroles anyway, or Stompy, which the deck also has good game against. The played decks that he is notably bad against are
- Thres (Near Autowin. However, with BTS, 'Goose, and Bolt in the red they can kill him pretty easily. Point is noted.)
- Goblins (blocking). This could be deabtable, he's better lategame due to his 5 Power, and when you both are in topdeck mode you need to kill them. However, if they run Burrows, he's very killable.
- Umm.... rogue aggro.

He's better against
- Control in all forms (from my exp.)
- Combo in all forms

Your meta is likely very different than my own. There are enough Janky Combos that I need to kill as soon as possible. This is why he's a play set.

[Benie Bederios]

Isn't it a possibillity too play Chalice Black then and drop the big artifacts. With only Dark Ritual and maybe Duress or so on 1 CC, I wouldn't mind playing Chalice. It is quite broken to start with Swamp, Ritual, Duress, Chalice for one. With Chalice for one down, all your threads are harder to kill. You could even play Flesh Reaver, because Burn will have a hard time dealing damage. If you are afraid Dark Ritual and Duress can't do anything, play Unmask next to them.

What I'm trying to say, black has got very good disruption of his own, why play colorless expensive Disruption, wich forces you to play a weaker manabase and some weak creatures.

[Goblin Snowman]

I'm playing Colorless fat due to the fact that
A) I can cast it far faster with Ancient TOmb and City
B) The Abyss. This is not a win more card, it just is a win.
C) I can power out more disruption, that is proactive.

[Muradin]

I have done some testing with this deck now and I had better results with crucible of worlds in the deck. I tried them out insted of the tangle wires because I think that they have more synergies with the whole deck. They nearly negate the drawbacks of warbeast and negator, make mishras much better and still improve your already good matchup against ******** by adding the recurring wasteland lock.(especially with trinisphere as many ******** lists are only playing 1-2 basics)
What do you think about that?

[lolosoon]

What do you think about that?
I do think Crucible helps this deck a lot. Especially if you run full playsets of both Factories, Wastelands and City of Traitors. And, as stated, It could sometimes negate Phyrexian Warbeast or Negator's drawbacks though.

This Phyrexian Stompy list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=80131&postcount=29) I've been testing HERE (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82334&postcount=90) works better with crucibles than without for sure. Still I don't know what list you are using (with maybe no cities), mine is very explosive, and very inconsistent.

@The Abyss : I like the idea of this non-symetrical board control card, but it's damn slow and don't save you from Goblin's Alpha-Strike or SGC artullery. Sure it's great vs Threshold, but MD Chalices & 3Sphere are already here for that. I'd say it's meta-dependant (vs stompy-builds and random aggro The Abyss is quite impressive) so it can go to the SB.

@Graveborm Muse : If you want to draw extra cards, why not play another bigger threat (say, another 4cc 4/4 artifact-creature) and find some room for 3-4 SoFI which can also act as a reusable shock to ensure board control/faster clock ?!
If the Muse was B3 -like Scuta- instead of BB2 -like Juzam/Plague Sliver-, I'd try it. But those 2 black manas are a big obstacle for her seeing play imho.

[Goblin Snowman]

I do think Crucible helps this deck a lot. Especially if you run full playsets of both Factories, Wastelands and City of Traitors. And, as stated, It could sometimes negate Phyrexian Warbeast or Negator's drawbacks though.

Those are very specific inciendces. Tanglewire is better against more of the field, and as annoying as City is, I never felt that I needed to recur it. Just know how to play your deck, and you should never get screwed with it. Since Tanglewire is effectively 2-3 turns against Solidarity, it allows me to beat with impunity. Against Goblins, in the early game, it allows me to timewalk myself generally 1-2 turns, and it just rocks against Thres.






@The Abyss : I like the idea of this non-symetrical board control card, but it's damn slow and don't save you from Goblin's Alpha-Strike or SGC artullery. Sure it's great vs Threshold, but MD Chalices & 3Sphere are already here for that. I'd say it's meta-dependant (vs stompy-builds and random aggro The Abyss is quite impressive) so it can go to the SB.

First off, it's not great verus Thres. I can hit, if they're white, 8 creatures. Against things with creatures, it wins. I'll do a listing of decks that need to find an answer to it or lose the game. I'm going by it getting dropped turn 2-3, which is generally when it is dropped.

Madness
Faerie Stompy
Angel Stompy
Zilla Stompy
Angel Stax if they run Angels, but they will always have an answer.
Deadguy Ale
Zoo
Red Death
Truffle Shuffle only has Gigipede to stop it.
RGSA has Trolls and Stomphowler
Tog
Pox if they don't run Idol/Scroll
Rock
Sui
Random Aggro
Elves
MonoX Control, since unless they main DE, they generally can't drop mulitple creatures.
Fish

I'm going to stop here, but you get the idea. I beg of you to actully test the card, as opposed to saying it's slow. There have been many times when they deal with my creatures, i.e., Shattering Spree, mulitple Swords, Wrath, and the only thing that kept my in the game with The Abyss. I have kept creatureless hands and won based on it. It clears blockers, it eats their board, it prevents damage to you, for 3B. I would never go below two copies in this deck, just because of the sheer power of it, and how that single card flat out wins games. So again, test the card before you say anything else about it. Not everyone has time, I understand, but you should not pass judgement on a card that you have no pratical experience with.

The Goblin thing. Umm...well, seeing as how it's just about impossible for Goblins to build up an Alpha Strike with it out (yes, it has happened a few times, and yes, I did still win most of those due to the fact that I can block), I have rarely had a hard time with it. The only way they can negate it is by dropping SCG, and since you ate probbably 2-3 creatures by then, possibly more to blocks, they should have maybe 4-6 little red men. If one's a Piledriver, great, block the damn thing. you're going to win the war of eventuallity.


@Graveborm Muse : If you want to draw extra cards, why not play another bigger threat (say, another 4cc 4/4 artifact-creature) and find some room for 3-4 SoFI which can also act as a reusable shock to ensure board control/faster clock ?!
If the Muse was B3 -like Scuta- instead of BB2 -like Juzam/Plague Sliver-, I'd try it. But those 2 black manas are a big obstacle for her seeing play imho.

The list is above, you have see it, yes? Your comments on if we run SOF&I and City make me wonder. My list does run 4 SOF&I. Not to mention that it does kill you eventully.

@ Benie Bederios - What weak manabase? You mean the expolsive one? I never really had time to refute you, so here I go. Black Stopmy, or Chalice Black as you have called it, (I'm assuming that you are not running Tomb or City due to you talking about a weak manabase) would be slower, have less reliable creatures (Priest of Gix sucks without anything else, and Flesh Reaver gets looked poorply on when you can just as easily drop out a vanilla 4/4. The Tanglewire, Trinisphere, and Chalice are all proative disruption. They affect the gamestate for the entire game, and require only a small mana investment. I have had several people forget about CotV, and lose a card in the process. Trinisphere makes them play only one spell a turn, in addition to killing Combo in most forms. What do you think Solidarity hates more, 3Sphere or Duress. Also, discard cannot stop them at the Draw Step, ehile my disruption can and will.

This deck doesn't run 1cc things not just because of Chalice, but because it can get generally 2-3 mana on turn one, make a one drop wasteful, and duress even less wanted. Persecute would be a better opetion since it's effect is far more gamebreaking, hence the reason I board it.

[lolosoon]

Tanglewire is better against more of the field
QFT. I was answering to Muradin's post and question. Tangle Wire is better than CoW and it definitly belong to the deck. But Crucible can improve the deck due to Wastelock and the synergy previously pointed.


First off, it's (The Abyss) not great verus Thres. I can hit, if they're white, 8 creatures.
Ok, my bad. I'm not used to the card and the Oracle's text says it targets, it's no sacrifice. Still, Threshold is running what, 12-13 threats ?! (I've seen lists with 0-1 big beater finisher). It's still Killing 2/3 of them...


(zip)
I'm going to stop here, but you get the idea. I beg of you to actully test the card, as opposed to saying it's slow.
Yup, I agree it is strong. Yup, I got your point. Still I'll only test it via MWS due to the hardness to found "cheap" Abysses here (Lille, France). ^^;
Just a question : with 3 of them, how often did you draw The Abyss before turn 4+ ? Did you specifically mulligan for it ?!



The Goblin thing. Umm...well, seeing as how it's just about impossible for Goblins to build up an Alpha Strike with it out (yes, it has happened a few times, and yes, I did still win most of those due to the fact that I can block), I have rarely had a hard time with it.
Well, you've got your play experiences, I've got mine. Still, it was with a different build (and without The Abyss) so I must trust you on this point.


The list is above, you have see it, yes? Your comments on if we run SOF&I and City make me wonder. My list does run 4 SOF&I. Not to mention that it does kill you eventully.
I've seen your last decklist. I just gave my though about the Graveborn Muse(+Sword of Light & Shadow) played by DampingEngine.
My answers weren't all pointing at you or your build ^^ Still I'ld have make that clearlier before.

[Benie Bederios]

@ Benie Bederios - What weak manabase? You mean the expolsive one? I never really had time to refute you, so here I go. Black Stopmy, or Chalice Black as you have called it, (I'm assuming that you are not running Tomb or City due to you talking about a weak manabase) would be slower, have less reliable creatures (Priest of Gix sucks without anything else, and Flesh Reaver gets looked poorply on when you can just as easily drop out a vanilla 4/4. The Tanglewire, Trinisphere, and Chalice are all proative disruption. They affect the gamestate for the entire game, and require only a small mana investment. I have had several people forget about CotV, and lose a card in the process. Trinisphere makes them play only one spell a turn, in addition to killing Combo in most forms. What do you think Solidarity hates more, 3Sphere or Duress. Also, discard cannot stop them at the Draw Step, ehile my disruption can and will.

An explosive manabase can still be weak in a deck. And would you call Solidaritys manabase bad, because it isn't explosive? You play a even highercurve than brown 5/3 and doesn't play Crucible of Worlds to dodge Landdistruction and make Mox Diamond better. What's wrong with Sinkhole and Hymn to Tourach. Both cost 2 mana and can disrupt an opponent for about the same amount of time. Because Triniphere and Tangle Wire are also dead lategame. And this deck isn't Chalice black.

[Anarky87]

Truffle Shuffle only has Gigipede to stop it.
Rock


That's only partially true. Truffle Shuffle has Deed, which can deal with your board and threats as well as The Abyss. It also has Vindicate to more than easily handle it. Depending on which version of The Rock you're running, they also have Deed to take care of it. If they're playing with Living Wish, then they have Wish > Stomphowler or something of the like.

And to be honest, more than a few of the decks you've listed can deal with the thing before it even hits play either through disruption, or counters. Of course that's bad argument, but, in the case of certain decks, that's the nature of their strategy, so control or disruption are more likely to occur.

[Goblin Snowman]

@lolosoon - I have gone down to 2 The Abyss in the main, due to my higher Black Creature count. I do not mull to it execpt in very spacific MUs, say a creature light deck without a way to deal with it, something like Faerie Stompy without counters.

@ Benie - I would call basic lands and fetches a horrid manabase for a deck designed to power out 3-4 CC things as soon as possible. Crucible of Worlds, in my opinion, sucks in this deck. It's a very limited effect that is useless alone, doesn't do anything to actully affect the board, and is only good against a rare class of spell. (LD)

Sinkhole and Hymn are any less dead than 3Sphere and Tanglewire in the late game? If they have spells that take extra mana because of Trinisphere, it's still working. If you can keep them off of Akroma's Vengence mana with Tanglewire for a turn, it's doing it's job. Unless they have 8ish mana sources Tanglewire isn't bad, remeber the 8 Mana Denial lands. Goblins is skilled at colorscrewing people, and this deck can do it better.

If you want to make a new deck that is Sui-ish with Chalice, please make a new topic. This thread is for discussion for 5/3 with a black splash. If you do, I will try to provide as much insight as I have on the subject.

@Anarky87 - "I'll do a listing of decks that need to find an answer to it or lose the game"
I never said it was GG, I said they had to have a way to deal with it. If they duress it out, then that wouldn't have mattered what card it was. If they Force it, then there was no way for any problem card to have resolved. My point was that if it hits the board, they cannot win until they find a way to answer it.

[Goblin Snowman]

My most recent build of this has dropped The Abyss, for testing pusposes, allowing me to run more Black Fat, and since I happen to be currently pissed of at that card. (Rip all three copies in a tourney against Burn after Pile shuffling!). The version I am going to be testing is....

The Deck
4x Drinker of Sorrow (Warbeast got cut due to STP killing him way to much)
4x Juggernaut
2x Phrexian Scuta (The life loss hasn't been Horrible, and he can just be a 3/3)
4x Phyrexian Negator

4x Trinisphere
3x Tanglewire
4x Chalice of the Void

4x Sword of Fire & Ice
3x Jitte

4x Mox Diamond
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traiters
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Urborg (tech)
6x Swamp
27 Mana

Board
3x Sphere of Resistence

2x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
2x Persecute
2x Vitrue's Ruin/Massacre - Undecided. Massacre is good against Smart Goblins, but I get wrecked Hard-Core style by Exalted Angel.
2x Perish

[rsaunder]

4x Drinker of Sorrow (Warbeast got cut due to STP killing him way to much)
Wait, what? Drinker of sorrow gets STP'd just like war beast. And you have to sac even when they aren't holding an STP.

[Phantom]

Wait, what? Drinker of sorrow gets STP'd just like war beast. And you have to sac even when they aren't holding an STP.

Well, I think his resoning is, warbeast often got plowed before it could ever do anything and the opponent gained card advantage. Drinker of sorrow at least is card parity when it gets plowed, and only forces you to sac something when it does something good (generally kills a creature or deals 5 damage to a player).

Note that I'm not really commenting on the quality of the logic so much as clarifying it. Personally, I think they're both kinda crappy but at least Drinker of sorrow presents a decent clock.

[Goblin Snowman]

Well, I think his resoning is, warbeast often got plowed before it could ever do anything and the opponent gained card advantage. Drinker of sorrow at least is card parity when it gets plowed, and only forces you to sac something when it does something good (generally kills a creature or deals 5 damage to a player).

Note that I'm not really commenting on the quality of the logic so much as clarifying it. Personally, I think they're both kinda crappy but at least Drinker of sorrow presents a decent clock.

Drinker of Sorrow is a better three drop than Warbeast against Combo, and things with removal (example: every deck). He is a 4 turn clock, opposed to a 7 turn clock, a very large difference. The only other card that I was really considering was Phyrexian Ironfoot, but since I cannot support Snow mana consistently, he was discarded. Although Synod Centarion still is very considerable. Remember, this is simply a new test. I have been playing this against Goblins, Thres, Combo, and Random Black Based Control, White Based Control, and X-color Aggro, with fairly positive results. As expected, FTK is still my nemisis, but what can you do.