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Hanni
10-04-2006, 05:51 AM
Well, one of my favorite decks of all time was G/R Fires (of Yavimaya) back during Masques/Invasions t2. While the t2 list of Fires would no longer be viable in Legacy, I'd still like to play a G/R Beats deck that uses fatties instead of weenies. It may not be viable this way, especially because of combo (3cc guys and 4cc guys are obviously slower than 1cc and 2cc guys), but I tried to shore that up with splashing white for Enlightened Tutor and Sterling Grove. This way, the deck can have increased chances of drawing into Fires (now Concordant Crossroads since it's cheaper, I'll explain more reasoning later), Saproling Burst, etc while having the ability to toolbox for things like Pyrostatic Pillar and Rule of Law for the combo matchup (as well as other cards for other matchups). I'm not quite sure how good this deck is for the current format because I haven't done much testing but I really like the deck so I decided to give it a shot. Here's the decklist I came up with:

G/R/w Beats

Lands (21)
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Ancient Tombs

Creatures (14)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Iwamori of the Open Fist
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Loxodon Hierarch

Spells (25)
4 Rancor
3 Concordant Crossroads
4 Call of the Herd
3 Saproling Burst
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sterling Grove
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard (15)
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

(Note that I just threw the sideboard together randomly from some card choices I thought about and is definitely going to get changed when I find out what the deck needs)

The manabase should support the red and white splashes sufficiently while providing plenty of green sources. The Ancient Tombs give increased acceleration into the 3cc, 4cc, and 5cc spells of the deck (allowing for plays like turn 2 Iwamori played off of a BoP or Elves). Gaea's Cradle works well with all of the 1cc mana-producing critters and helps accelerate the higher cc cards. I'm not sure if Gaea's Cradle is necessary.

I think that 7 1cc mana producers is sufficient, ensuring that deck almost always has a turn 1 1cc mana producer drop. I opted to run 7 instead of 8 to fit the lone Gaea's Cradle, though that can always be changed. I opted to go with more BoP because they help round out the 3-color manabase.

I run Call of the Herd over Troll Ascetic simply because it costs 2G instead of 1GG and can be accelerated out turn 2 with Ancient Tombs. It also has flashback, which allows the deck to play turn 2 Call turn 3 Call when the deck has no other plays. I feel that it is a pretty solid 3cc drop for the deck.

I run Ehrnam Djinn for now because I'm not quite sure what would be the best 4cc creature drop in the format. Blastoderm was good but being untargetable means he can't be equipped with Rancor/Jitte and he can be chumped blocked due to no evasion or trample. He's also not a permanent threat which can sometimes be a problem. I run a 3/1 split of him and Iwamori because Iwamori is Legendary, though Iwamori is strictly superior (maybe I should do a 2/2 split?).

Flametongue Kavu is pretty solid, he acts as a 2-for-1, killing nearly all of the creatures in the format and providing a solid 5 turn clock. He gets pretty good with a Rancor on.

Saproling Burst is the kill card of the deck, creating 3 4/4 tokens for 5 mana. The tokens can sit around and block the turn they come into play if the deck is being aggressed by fast aggro but they are much better with a Concordant Crossroads in play, swinging for 12 damage for 5 mana (and 9 damage on the following turn). Saproling Burst is a pretty good card but it's not as amazing without Concordant Crossroads. I'm not sure if the deck should run 4 of these instead of 3, but it can often be dead in the opening hand when the deck can't access 5 mana (though the ability to access 4 mana is almost certain). It also requires Concordant Crossroads to be sick nasty, which can be situational.

Rancor gives my big fatties trample (and +2/0) so they can swing through chump blockers and finish my opponent off much faster. They also turn the 1cc mana producers into solid aggressors when necessary. It's difficult to remove Rancor, which is pretty awesome in my book.

Concordant Crossroads gives all my fatties haste, increasing the clock of the deck signifcantly. I only run 2 because more than 1 gives no additional effect, while giving all creatures haste can sometimes be a bad thing. The deck packs tutors for it, so accessing one shouldn't be a problem. I choose to run this over Fires because it costs 1cc as opposed to 3cc (and doesn't require Red), meaning the deck can still pump out fatties without losing an entire turn to play a card that does nothing on its own. I'm not sure if the deck should run more or less of these, or maybe even 1 Fires as tech. I'm kinda leaning on wanting more though because the fact that they give my creatures haste means that I can essentially drop 1cc mana produces for free (so that I can still play fatties on that turn and then even more on the following turn) and Saproling Burst just isn't as awesome without it.

Lightning Bolt provides cheap effecient spot removal for chump blockers (and answers 1st turn Lackey) and can fling to the dome to deal the final points of damage to the opponent if necessary.

Englightened Tutor and Sterling Grove give the deck increased chances to draw into Saproling Burst or Concordant Crossroads as well as allowing the deck to run toolbox cards in the maindeck and sideboard. Sterling Grove also gives the benefit of protecting my enchantments.

I play Pyrostatic Pillar as a 1-of to toolbox for because it is rather amazing against most of the decks in the format. It answers combo nicely, putting them on a very short clock if I manage to swing with a fattie once or twice (or can do it all on its lonesome sometimes).

I also run Rule of Law, which greatly helps the combo matchup by giving the deck increased chances of drawing into combo hate. 2 combo hate cards and 4 tutors should be sufficient maindeck.

Seal of Cleansing is maindecked as a 1-of to answer problematic artifacts/enchantments when necessary and can be tutored for.

Umezawa's Jitte is a great card in most decks but is a dead card in multiples. I'm not quite sure how necessary it is in a deck with fatties but the deck can easily support the cost so I run 1 maindeck to tutor for when necessary (life gain, creature removal).

That's the maindeck, I haven't built a sideboard because I'm not exactly sure what this deck needs. The fact that I can build a tutor board also gives the deck a huge amount of options, so I decided not to tap into them yet until I get some feedback from you guys. I'm still very iffy on some of my card choices, and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Does this deck even stand a chance in the format?

smeagol
10-04-2006, 06:18 AM
Ehrnam Djinn??? Are you serious?

There are quite some superior choices for th Djinn. Just to name a few:
- Burning Tree Shaman
- Mystic Enforcer (even in a non Grow Deck quite good and better than Ehrnam in all cases)
- Loxodon Hierarch

That Tutor Toolbox looks quite random. If you want to run it, you definately should think about moving the Combo Hate to the sideboard and filling the slots with more versatile answers to a broader field.

and by the way: Saproling Burst + Pandemonium = GG

Hanni
10-04-2006, 06:32 AM
Yea, I just came up with Erhrnam Djinn randomly because I couldn't think of what to replace Blastoderm with (and I haven't had any sleep yet). Burning-Tree Shaman looks good, though it can't be accelerated via Ancient Tomb and I really want 4cc drop in that slot. I think Burning-Tree Shaman would be a good sideboard option though. Mystic Enforcer doesn't really go well in the deck because the deck doesn't really achieve Threshold that quickly. Loxodon Hierarch is amazing and I completely forgot about him. I'm gonna edit my deck to have Hierarchs in place of the Djinns unless I find a better creature drop.

As I said, I just came up with this deck and haven't played with it much. I think maindeck hate directed towards combo isn't a bad idea, many decks run maindeck combo hate, especially Pyrostatic Pillar because it's helpful against more than just combo. Rule of Law could probably be sideboarded though (or I could run more Pyrostatic Pillars and no Rule of Law, I haven't tested to determine what's what yet).

Pandemonium is pretty awesome, I hadn't even considered that. I'll drop 1 Rule of Law for 1 Pandemonium in the maindeck.

I'm also going to drop 1 maindeck Jitte for 1 Pithing Needle. I don't really think the deck needs Jitte and I can always run it in the sideboard.

I'm also thinking that Chalice of the Void could be really good in this deck. For the most part, the deck doesn't really need 1cc and 2cc guys (after the first turn mainly) against matchups where Chalice would be effective, and the tutors can grab it. Adding Chalice would probably turn this deck in a completely different direction from where I'm trying to go though.

I really need to do alot of testing before things get situated, but presenting the deck (even in untuned form) will help mold the deck much quicker/better with the help of others than it would on my lonesome.

Anyone want to attempt to build a sideboard for the deck that they think could be useful? I'll work on building one in a few days after I do some testing.

EDIT:

Actually, now that I think about it, Pandemonium pretty much does what Concordant Crossroads does (aside from being sick nasty with Saproling Burst). I mean, yea, Concordant Crossroads can help aggro out, but Goblins already gets haste from Warchief and I probably won't be dropping Crossroads into play without dropping a fattie the same turn. Sure, the opponent can chump block, but with trample it's not going to help them much and it seems like it would only delay the inevitable anyway. Pandemonium costs 4cc, which is why I didn't want to run Fires of Yavimaya in the first place (too much mana when I'd rather invest in creatures). Pandemonium is pretty much an instant win with Saproling Burst, and it can act as creature removal, but I think Concordant Crossroads is just better for the deck overall. I'd test out Pandemonium before I dismiss it, but I'm going to drop it from my list for now for a 3rd Concordant Crossroads.

SillyMetalGAT
10-04-2006, 02:51 PM
Isn't there like 15 GRW zoo/beats decks on this forum?

Hanni
10-04-2006, 05:36 PM
This deck is unlike the rest of the G/R/w Zoo or Beats decks on this forum. This deck doesn't use 1cc drops like Kird Ape and 2cc drops like Watchwolf. This deck uses fatties. This deck also uses Concordant Crossroads. This deck is very different from those, this deck more resembles Fires than Zoo or G/R Beats and Zilla Stompy.

If anything, this deck more closely resembles RGSA except it replaces the Survival engine with an Enlightened Tutor engine to attempt to have a better game against combo and to also draw into Concordant Crossroads better.

Actually, fitting in a Survival of the Fittest, Squee, Masticore, and Genesis would probably be a good idea for the deck since Enlightened grabs Survival and Squee. In that manner I could replace Concordant Crossroads for Anger, although then the deck opens itself up to graveyard hate and Pithing Needle (which already hits Saproling Burst) and it requires the deck to toolbox even more.

After testing I make actually turn this into an RGSA hybrid if I find that it works better, but this deck is definitely not G/R/w Zoo and it's in no way similar to any of the G/R Beats decks I've ever seen on this forum.

This is what I'd do in attempt to give it an RGSA feel:

G/R/w Survival Advantage

Lands (21)
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
2 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb

Creatures (18)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Genesis
1 Iwamori of the Open Fist
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
3 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Masticore

Spells (21)
4 Rancor
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Saproling Burst
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sterling Grove

Sideboard (15)
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Rule of Law
3 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm sure that the deck could probably use a better toolbox of fatties (as in, larger cc) but for now I think what I have should be okay and I really don't want to drop Saproling Burst from the list because that's basically the kill card (and the whole reason I tried to build a G/R/w Fatties deck in the first place.

SillyMetalGAT
10-04-2006, 06:01 PM
If you want a good GRW Survival deck, look at McGuyver for a reference. It is probably the best version your going to find.

kirdape3
10-04-2006, 07:22 PM
Does white do anything for you that black already doesn't? Right now, I'm seeing just specifically Loxodon Hierarch. His ability, while pretty awesome (you get 4 life AND a 4/4, rather than one or the other with Ravenous Baloth), is not necessarily better or worse than running a set of Cabal Therapies maindeck so you can have some game 1 resistance to combo.

Hanni
10-04-2006, 08:07 PM
White gives tutoring power for Pyrostatic Pillar so that game 1 the deck has access to 4 of them and access to 8 of them game 2. It also grabs out Survival so that the deck is more consistent/fast (cause of Anger), and it also gives the deck enchantment protection via Sterling Grove (although this doesn't stop Needle). If I need additional combo hate I can also board Rule of Law.

I don't know what McGuyver is although I originally posted this deck without Survival and built it is a Legacy modified Fires deck. I'm still not sure if the Survival engine is necessary, although it seems like it will probably make the deck alot better. I'll search for the McGuyver list when I get the time.

Cavius The Great
10-06-2006, 08:32 AM
Hanni, have you tested this deck? Concordant Crossroads seems terrible to me. Don't get me wrong Corcordant Crossroads is a great card, but I would never play it without making sure I win the game once it's dropped. It seems like your deck isn't able to do that which makes it a very risky card to play IMO.

xsockmonkeyx
10-06-2006, 11:04 AM
G/R/w Survival Advantage

Lands (21)
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
2 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb

Creatures (18)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Genesis
1 Iwamori of the Open Fist
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
3 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Masticore

Spells (21)
4 Rancor
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Saproling Burst
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sterling Grove

Sideboard (15)
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Rule of Law
3 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm sure that the deck could probably use a better toolbox of fatties (as in, larger cc) but for now I think what I have should be okay and I really don't want to drop Saproling Burst from the list because that's basically the kill card (and the whole reason I tried to build a G/R/w Fatties deck in the first place.

Because this deck features big fatties and takes a turn or two to set up I think that wall of roots would be better than llanowar elves because you can still respond to lackey without losing your mana accel in the process.

If you still want that concordant crossroads effect then just add an anger and a basic mountain. I dont think the CC effect is necessary or warranted though and the space would be better served as something else

If you are running white then isnt StP>Bolt?

@Name. This is more like GRW survival than GRW beats. GRW beats is like that one deck with the Watchwolves and the Vipers.

Props on the MD pillar