converted casting cost of cards without casting costs

[Mulletus]

Lets take the new black lotus thingy.. Lotus Bloom. What is it's converted mana cost in different fields? Like hand, play, graveyard, and stack...

Now let's say it'sa just in play, and I want to activate pernicious deed to get rid of it... is it less than 0?

ok Now let's say I want to Transmute artifact it into play....

Do you see where I'm going with this?

(Sorry if it's been addressed and I can't find it)

[quicksilver]

203.3a The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0.

So it's countered by chalice at zero and deed always hits it.

[Mulletus]

Now what about other fields, like while searching your library or graveyard? With like the Salvager, or Trinket Mage.

And Isocron Scepter... does a no casting cost intstant have a casting cost of 2 or less?

[quicksilver]

Yes, the converted mana cost of no mana cost is always zero, no matter where the card is, so yes you can put instnants with no mana cost on scepters and it works, you can trinket mage up that no mana cost lotus.

[xsockmonkeyx]

ok Now let's say I want to Transmute artifact it into play....

Do you see where I'm going with this?

(Sorry if it's been addressed and I can't find it)
So, can you Transmute Artifact a Lotus Bloom into play?

[quicksilver]

So, can you Transmute Artifact a Lotus Bloom into play?

Yes, you can sacrifice your artifact land to get a lotus bloom for no additional mana besides the 2 blue for transmute artifact. It's really simple, if a card referes to converted mana cost, there is no difference between no casting cost and a casting cost of zero. The only difference between no casting cost and a casting cost of zero, it that you are not allowed to pay a non-existant casting cost. But anything that referes to converted mana cost is exactly the same.

[Mulletus]

What about things that effect the casting cost of things being played? Like Trinisphere or helm of Awakening.

[quicksilver]

Converted mana costs of cards never change, it is what is printed on the card, trinisphere and helm never affect converted mana costs.

[Jander78]

What about things that effect the casting cost of things being played? Like Trinisphere or helm of Awakening.

These cards affect casting cost, but they don't change the converted casting cost on the card. There is no card currently that can change the converted mana cost that is printed on a card. Spells with X in their casting cost and morph cards are the only cards that can have different converted casting costs.

[EdsonDettoni]

Hello,

What about Artifact lands (Seat of Synod) or Land creatures (Dryad arbor)? Can I destroy these with Engineered Explosives with 0 counters, if they are in play?

I understend that Chalice of the Void dont counter (cause isn't a spell), but once in play? The point is that are affected for his two types. Think in Mishra's factory. No one reject than is affected by Engineered Explosives. So, why artifact lands don't?

[Jak]

It says "destroy each nonland permanent" on Engineered Explosives.

[Atwa]

It says "destroy each nonland permanent" on Engineered Explosives.

However, they still get destroeyed by Pernicious Deed. Artifact lands have a CMC of 0 when in play, you just have look at the wording of a card to find out if it's effected.

[elof]

NVM, google finds everything :)

[EdsonDettoni]

However, they still get destroeyed by Pernicious Deed. Artifact lands have a CMC of 0 when in play, you just have look at the wording of a card to find out if it's effected.

Ok.

* G1.18 - An artifact land is a combination of artifact and land, and it's subject to the rules for both. (See Rule 212.2, "Artifacts.") Artifact lands can only be played as lands. [CompRules 2007/05/01]

So,
1. An artifact land is a combination of artifact and land, and it's subject to the rules for both.
2. In play, an artifact land is counts as an artifact with casting cost 0.
3. In play, an artifact land is subject to the rules (and its consecuences) of artifacts.
4. Engineered Explosives: Destroy each nonland [artifacts are in this group] permanent with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Engineered Explosives.
5. If there are 0 counters in Engineered Explosives, artifact lands are afected by it.

Thats my silogism. There is no difference between the ability of perniciuos deed and Engineered Explosives in this.

This is wrong. See below. When something says "non", it means something that does not have that quality. -cdr

[SomeRandomDude]

Wait would Lotus Bloom + Master Transmuter = awesome?

[rufus]

... Destroy each nonland [artifacts are in this group] permanent with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Engineered Explosives.

Actually, nonland excludes everything that is a land. That means that artifact lands, Dryad Arbor, saproling tokens that are forests because of a 'life and limb' in play, lands made into creatures by their abilities, by Korumus Bell, Living Plane, or whatever are all safe.

A card like Magus of the Disk which destroys all artifacts, creatures and enchantments, on the other hand, will clearly affect them.

[cdr]

Wait would Lotus Bloom + Master Transmuter = awesome?

Yes, if putting Lotus Bloom into play with Master Transmuter is somehow awesome to you.

I guess if you added a couple of Sapphire Medallions and Lightning Greaves you might have something.

[rufus]

Wait would Lotus Bloom + Master Transmuter = awesome?

Not really. Master Transmuter costs 3U, and can be used to put an arbitrary cost Artifact into play.

Tezzeret can pull out a Lotus Bloom for 0 loyalty counters, but, under most circumstances that's unlikely to be particularly helpful.

Transmute Artifact / Reshape -> Lotus Bloom is potentially interesting because it (more or less) turns those into:
UU
Sorcery.
Sacrifice an artifact as an additional cost to cast this spell. Add 3 mana of any color to your mana pool.

That's blue acceleration and mana fixing, which is typically not part of blue's slice of the pie.

[cdr]

Ok.

* G1.18 - An artifact land is a combination of artifact and land, and it's subject to the rules for both. (See Rule 212.2, "Artifacts.") Artifact lands can only be played as lands. [CompRules 2007/05/01]


This is a "ruling", a tip on how things work. It's not an actual, full rule - though it is a quote from the Glossary (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#artifact_land), which is closer to a rule, and as such it points you to the actual rule (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R212.2f.).



So,
1. An artifact land is a combination of artifact and land, and it's subject to the rules for both.

True.


2. In play, an artifact land is counts as an artifact with casting cost 0.

It's an Artifact everywhere, because Artifact is on the type line of the card. It doesn't "count as" anything. It's also a Land everywhere.

More precisely, it has no mana cost, so its converted mana cost is 0.


3. In play, an artifact land is subject to the rules (and its consequences) of artifacts.

True.


4. Engineered Explosives: Destroy each nonland [artifacts are in this group] permanent with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Engineered Explosives.

Artifacts are irrelevant. The sole and only thing that matters is whether the permanent is a land or not.


5. If there are 0 counters in Engineered Explosives, artifact lands are afected by it.

Thats my silogism. There is no difference between the ability of perniciuos deed and Engineered Explosives in this.


No. Engineered Explosives says "nonland", which per simple english interpretation means "everything that is not a land".

[EdsonDettoni]

Ok, I get it.

But I'm confused cause with that simple interpretation, Engineered Explosives doesn't affect to manlands, like mishrras factory, wich is part of normal practice of magic.

Literal interpretation is not that simple. Cause it says "each non (land property, now as [L])",and artifact lands are not [L], they are [L+A]. So, litteraly, they are not part of the same collection. That explains why in practice Explosives affect manlands.

But I think In magic that is not the form to interpretate types. I guess would be like [L]+[A].

Thanks for yous replies.

[Nightmare]

Uh, Engineered Explosives does NOT kill manlands. Since, by definition, they are LANDS.

[cdr]

What Nightmare said, except that "man-lands" don't necessarily have to remain lands - it's just pretty much tradition that they are printed to also remain lands.

When something changes types, it loses its previous types unless it explicitly says it retains them. You'll notice all "man-lands" say "It's still a land.".

There are actually some other effects that change types that don't retain previous types - the Hidden enchantments, for instance, stop being enchantments when they animate.


Hidden Herd G
Enchantment
When an opponent plays a nonbasic land, if Hidden Herd is an enchantment, Hidden Herd becomes a 3/3 Beast creature.