Fluctuating Goodness

[The Rack]

I usually have a fairly decent match up due to the lack of speed of the opponent. Landstilll (which still sees some play out here) is a tough match up because of the counter. Lockdown is tooooo slow to beat me.

You can succeed with this deck if there isn't much counter in your Meta. Fluctuator is a very cheap deck and fun to play.


Here's the Tendrils based version of the deck:

Newest Decklist:

4 Fluctuator
4 Reaping the Graves

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Disciple of Malice
4 Disciple of Grace
4 Disciple of Law
4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Miscalculation

4 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Dark Ritual

4 Polluted Mire
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Remote Isle

And the SB:
4 Dodecapod
3 Spoils of the Vault
2 Divert
3 Force of Will
3 Duress

Thanks you Iranon for the math, Bovinious for the help and discussion with the deck , herbig with the miniprimer, and all of you who put out ideas that didn't have to do with not playing this deck. Thanks!

Here's the Tendrils based version of the deck:

Newest Decklist:

4 Fluctuator
4 Reaping the Graves

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Disciple of Malice
4 Disciple of Grace
4 Disciple of Law
4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Miscalculation

4 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Dark Ritual

4 Polluted Mire
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Remote Isle

And the SB:
4 Dodecapod
3 Spoils of the Vault
2 Divert
3 Force of Will
3 Duress

Thanks you Iranon for the math, Bovinious for the help and discussion with the deck , herbig with the miniprimer, and all of you who put out ideas that didn't have to do with not playing this deck. Thanks!

[Cavius The Great]

I think you need something in the deck that you can search Fluctuator with. Running four with no tutoring power seems like it would turn out to be inconsistant. Maybe something like Enlightened Tutor would work in the deck.

I initially wanted to suggest Spoils of the Vault, but you're kill cards are silver bullets. :tongue:

[Goblin Snowman]

A few cards to consider are Ancient Tomb and City of Traiters for faster Fluctuators, Enlightned Tutor since it's easy enough to change you cycling lands to white, and the best tech ever, Empty the Catacombs. It allows you to pretty much win. However, I would very strongly reccomend putting in an additional copy of Songs of the Damned, or else adding in 4 Force of Will and changing you cycling creatures to blue.

[Barsoom]

30x Black/White/Green/Blue Cyclers


Can you write what do you use?

[clavio]

You play too many non-cycling cards for fluctuator. You should play 4 fluc, 1 lotus petal 1 dark ritual and 1 haunting misery. That way you don't get a non-cycling hand before you have enough guys in your graveyard.

If you are facing counters, board in abeyance. It will slow you down a bit, but it gives you a fighting chance.

[Moczoc]

tutors?
I've made better experiences with mulligan to the flux. If you don't play unnecessary non-cyclers you can still kill constant with less cards in Hand.

[The Rack]

I only play 1 more clog card than you, for the counter matchup. I am considering running another Songs for consistency too. Abeyance will be SB in but at how many? The cyclers are really of no importance because I rarely rarely ever cast them. The deck requires aggresive mulligans but thats just part of the deck. I am focusing more on the SB thsn the main.

[addaro]

Hi guys,
the idea looks cool, can you please post the whole decklist, not just 30x Black/White/Green/Blue Cyclers. Some hints how to play and match up analysis...

[The Rack]

Matchups are being edited in as we speak.

[DarkAkuma]

Ive had this deck together since Urza's Legacy came out (so cheap, no since takeing it apart. Not like you can sell/trade away whats in it). I still find it funny when people who dont know what thier doing make this deck.

First. This is a pure mindless combo deck. Its only goal is to win asap. Next, you have should have no more then 7 non cycleing card. Any more, and your ruining the deck. Ill explain later (since im sure i will have to). 4 of those cards will always be Fluctuator, but the kills can differ. The standard one though, is useualy.

4x Fluctuator
1x Lotus Petal
1x Songs of the Dammed
1x Drain Life or Consume Spirit

Other kills are.

4x Fluctuator
1x Lotus Petal
1x Dark Ritual
1x Haunting Misery

Last being someting with Living Death. Dont remember what exactly, cause i never played it.

Anyway, the reason you dont want more the 7 non-cycleing cards, is that with any more, your odds of getting a hand full of non-cycleing cards without 1 or more of the needed kill cards goes up signifigantly. Meaning, you will have to pass the turn, and hope your opponant doesent rip apart your hand, or leave plenty of mana open to counter or something.

With 7 non-cycle cards, after casting 1 fluctuator, you will hve 6 left in your deck. Idealy you would want a hand size of 6 after you resolve this fluctuator, so you end up this turn with 3 flutuators, and your 3 kill cards in hand, cast them, and win.

So shooting for a goal of 6 cards after resolving a fluctuator, your kill turn will differ. Ill try to break things down. But the desideing factors are if your on the draw or not, and if you have atleast 1 Blasted Landscape and any other CIPT land.

Play 1st / 2 CIPT Lands: 3rd turn kill
Play 1st / 1 Blasted Landscape + any other land: 3rd turn kill (chance at 2nd turn kill with only 5 cards in hand, if you have 1 or more of your Fluctuators in the bottom few cards of your deck)

Draw 1st / 2 CIPT Lands: 3rd turn kill
Draw 1st / 1 Blasted Landscape + any other land: 2nd turn kill

Guess i should point out that basicly, your not going off without your opponant getting the oppurtunity to fill 2 land drops. Also, important thing. Each time you mulligan you add 1 more turn to your "kill clock".

I run 4 Miscalculations in my build, so if i feel i need to, i can give up a turn and have some level of protection for my win. For that though, you need either 1 of your Black or Blue CIPT Lands.

[Firebrothers]

Yeah my friend plays a flucuator deck with Living Deaths and Mox Diamonds. It seems pretty fun to play, just cycle untill you find a living death with tons of dudes in the yard.

[The Rack]

I run 8 clog cards because if the opponent knows you only have one kill condition then they will only counter that kill. No sense in countering Flux if they can counter and deck you right? That's why i run 8.What did your SB look like DarkAkuma?

[Phantom Ogre]

I run 8 clog cards because if the opponent knows you only have one kill condition then they will only counter that kill. No sense in countering Flux if they can counter and deck you right? That's why i run 8.

What do you do if they counter Songs of the Damned?

[r_x_]

He Scoops. Thats why one Force of Will and a black Lair (Darigaaz Caldera, Dromars Cavern or the whats its name) is the right way to play. Lair bounces the cycling land back to your hand, allowing you to cycling more. Yes, it does slow the deck by a turn, but it makes it more stable.

So the non cycling cards I use are

4 Fluctuator
1 Force of Will
1 Songs of the Damned
1 Drain Life
1 Darigaaz Caldera

And 4 Miscalculations on the main also.

SB:
2 Orims Chant
1 Dromar's Cavern
1 Rancor
1 Elephant Resurgence
1 Lotus Petal
2 Force of Will
3 Metagame slots, Like RoP: Red, Lightning Rift etc.

[Blair Phoenix]

I run 8 clog cards because if the opponent knows you only have one kill condition then they will only counter that kill. No sense in countering Flux if they can counter and deck you right? That's why i run 8.What did your SB look like DarkAkuma?
It's easier just to run duress in place of the other kill condition as the turn you go off, they will usually only have the ability to counter one spell, forcing them to either counter the duress and you win, or you duress the counter away, and you still win. This is assuming the opponent doesn't oh, say, counter songs of the damned, or counter fluctuator.

[Benie Bederios]

Why is this version better than the Tendrils version playing 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Songs of the Damned and Reaping the Graves?

That way you have a win condition that can't be countered by a single counterspell and have more options in getting a fast Fluctuator. reaping the Graves can give alot of cards.

[Bane of the Living]

Is this finally the right deck to play Serum Powder in?

[The Rack]

Serum Powder has been deeply considered however it clogs up the Flux during combo and doesn't add enough to the deck. I'll post the tendrils flux in a bit.

[herbig]

This is why we should have a casual forum. This deck, card for card, has been around for years. You don't cite anything new to offer and the deck still has the same issues. Mulliganing into Fluctuator means you will be down cards, making you stall. You can never reliably cast any cards you side in, without stalling your combo by adding more cards.

You lose to a two commonly played cards, that come online turn 0, and about two dozen other commonly played cards. You lose to any form of hand/land/graveyard disruption. You cannot stop any of these. And, you cannot race other forms of combo.

Your combo isn't even storm based and you lose to Arcane Lab. You lose to Force of Will. You lose to Meddling Mage. You lose to Chalice 0,1,2, and 3. You lose to Tormod's Crypt. You lose to Leyline. You lose to Daze. You lose to Pithing Needle. You lose to playing 8 non cycling cards.

All of the advice you chose not to heed on The Mana Drain still applies.

[Bane of the Living]

Wow he just pissed in your cornflakes.

He's right though the combo is way too fragile and every deck plays some of those cards he mentioned.

[The Rack]

Ok, this is what I don't understand about all of the negative ones out there. I post a list of the Tendrils version. You criticize everything about it and end up telling me to make it Songs/Drain version. I put up a close to optimal list and now I can't seem to get a break. I was the one that reformed the Tendrils version to optimal. It will be edited in along with the other list. Can Flux EVER be adccepted by 1% of the Magic population. I'm not going to give up on this deck so no use in trying to shame me out of it. I play Magic to play and not quit and make a new deck. Thanks to the few that actually add something new to discuss. A optimal Flux deck will be made out of this threasd sooner or later. Thank you all.

[Miniature Kenny]

This is why we should have a casual forum. This deck, card for card, has been around for years. You don't cite anything new to offer and the deck still has the same issues. Mulliganing into Fluctuator means you will be down cards, making you stall. You can never reliably cast any cards you side in, without stalling your combo by adding more cards.

You lose to a two commonly played cards, that come online turn 0, and about two dozen other commonly played cards. You lose to any form of hand/land/graveyard disruption. You cannot stop any of these. And, you cannot race other forms of combo.

Your combo isn't even storm based and you lose to Arcane Lab. You lose to Force of Will. You lose to Meddling Mage. You lose to Chalice 0,1,2, and 3. You lose to Tormod's Crypt. You lose to Leyline. You lose to Daze. You lose to Pithing Needle. You lose to playing 8 non cycling cards.



I've tried something similar to this and came to the conclusion that without any disruption or protection of your own, you lose. But you can't pack any distruption or it becomes god awful slow and you lose your clock. If you want to play a cycle deck, play Rifter.

[Mirrislegend]

How does the tendrils version win? Cycling doesnt add to storm, so what is going on there?

[r_x_]

It wins by playing loads of spells at the same turn, like any other Storm combo: Reaping the Graves, Rituals, Songs, Petals and maybe 2 Tendrils, if the strom count is too slow. The deck can draw out all of its cards in a turn when it goes off, so that won't be a problem. The problem is to get Fluctuator in play.

Cycling and Reaping the graves just gives the deck a card advantage engine it needs. In fact, the deck could be played without Fluctuators and Cycling creatures, you would just have to decide what card drawing you would replace them.

[Mirrislegend]

Duh it plays like any storm combo. But I still dont see how you can end up with enough spells in hand, after playing lands and Fluctuator, to get to the right storm count. Can someone give me an example of how it plays out? An example that is not some rarely-occuring ideal, but a realistic situation?

[The Rack]

Ok. Play Flux. Cycle for a while until hand is clogged. Play Petal. Play Dark Ritual/Songs play reaping. Draw The Play Songs and double Tendrils. That is the most commonly played out game. What deck would you guys think to be better?

[r_x_]

What deck would you guys think to be better?

Seriously? Nausea, Solidarity, Spring Tide, Eastern Eggs, Iggy Pop to name a few better combo decks.

Or if you mean by those two you posted, the first one dies on one counter, Chalice, True Beliver etc. So I must say the tendrils version, even though it isn't good compared to other combo decks.

[The Rack]

Wow, negativity is really running rampant on forums nowadays. I really like the lack of content r x. I'm sure your just trying to get a taste of being an ass but I must say you are good at it.

@ everyone: What are any possible changes would yoyu make to either decklist? I am willing to hear any suggestions besides the rude ones that say "don't play this deck".

[herbig]

For the "new" decklist, what are the Dodecapods for? Hymn? How do you get to Fluctuator? What happens if you don't draw it within three turns? What are your matchups like, and how do they differ from other combo decks? What turn on average do you go off? Have you had any issues with Meddling Mage? Tormod's Crypt?

[The Rack]

D pod ios for the black heavy meta. Usually a 2nd turn D pod is game. I have tried a lot of search but Spoils is the best one with the biggest risk. It goldfishes average 2.5. Mage is a reason enough to run Expunge which I am currently considering. Crypt usn't too bad due to the fact of in response Songs again. I really only need 8 mana to kill at the worst. Matchups are not available yet due to thwe lack of testing on my part. They will be in soon.

[herbig]

D pod ios for the black heavy meta. Usually a 2nd turn D pod is game. I have tried a lot of search but Spoils is the best one with the biggest risk. It goldfishes average 2.5. Mage is a reason enough to run Expunge which I am currently considering. Crypt usn't too bad due to the fact of in response Songs again. I really only need 8 mana to kill at the worst. Matchups are not available yet due to thwe lack of testing on my part. They will be in soon.

What cards in particular will make you discard Dodecapod? What other search have you tried? Do you have trouble finding black mana with only 8 sources? What about Crypt in response to Reaping the Graves instead?

[The Rack]

D pod is really only therte for Hymn. It rapes this deck so D pod is needed. I have used Desperate Research, Tainted Pact, Spoils, ajnd Plung. None of them workid very well. In response to crypt you can send the storm copies correct? I have ran into crypt problems to where Needle is being almost neccessary MD. Any other ideas are certainly welcome.

[herbig]

In response to crypt you can send the storm copies correct?

Negative. Perhaps instead of Dpod you might look into Metrognome. The extra blockers could buy you the time you need to draw into the win after their discard. Plus, being colorless, it is easily castable off of your lands and could serve as another win condition.

[The Rack]

Wouldn't Metrognome be worse than D pod? Spot reamoval doesnt hurt the gnomes whereas d pod does. However, D pod really puts them on the defensive. Any other tech that you guys can think of?

[herbig]

Fair enough. But if you're going to rely on the Dpod plan for the black matchup, you might want something to ensure that it is the only card in your hand when they Hymn, since Hymn is random. Something like Last Rites, which would wreck their hand in the process.

[The Rack]

Last Rites could be viable in here. What SB slot should be dropped?

[Bovinious]

Hello all, just like to say Im a long time reader, first time poster, ill try and keep my grammar mostly right as i know is expected but I apologize if I start writing too fast and forget some puncuations.

Ive looked at your deck list and I really like the idea, Ive been toying around with the idea and ive come up with a slightly different deck majors differences being:

I play 24 of the cycling lands, 4 of all 6 available from Urzas saga, I also included 28 cyclers which are all blue creatures (7 blue creatures wiht cycling exist so they are each a 4 of), reason for this coming shortly.

Other then that I play 8 non cyclers, 4 Fluctuator, 1 petal, 1 songs, 1 consume spirit, and 1 Misdirection maindeck. the blue cards and for the misdirection, and the misdirection is to be able to not simply lose when they (try) to counter a spell or try to destroy your hand. this can me down a turn, if I cycle away all my blue cards or draw it rather than a combo piece, but it can be sided out against non blue/black decks. It does add some resilency and give a chance at winning gm 1 again counters/hand disruption.

My sideboard also is sorta different, no sure if it works perfectly but it seems to look really good on paper and Ive tested most of the cards on it, and they seem to help win against decks where they are needed, but obviously slow the deck down a few turns. my sideboard is the following:

1 songs - in case 1 gets countered
1 lotus petal - in case i need one of a color for a SB card, or if 1st is countered
1 miscalculation - SB out misD for this when it isnt needed (it cycles)
1 chromatic sphere - another mana fixer post SB
1 abeyance - so they cant counter/do anything else
1 tormod's crypt - general hate
1 clear - for random ivory mask, etc, cycles :)
1 repopulate - in response to GY hate, it cycles as well
1 expunge - against true believer and the like, and cycles
1 rapid decay - GY hate that cycles
1 gilded light - not sure why but could be useful and it cycles
1 scrap - destroy artifact and cycles
1 haunting misery -alternate win condition if they play meddling mage or if songs is countered can be cast
1 death wish - not sure if this belongs either, havnt decided on this or STP
1 swords to plowshares - deal wiht a troublesome creature, not sure if this belongs

this is meant to be a toolbox SB that u SB in the 1-3 cards needed and they are drawn while cyclign ur deck, slowing it down but allowing for greater win chance later in game. Useless if u cant find a fluctuator or it gets countered, not sure how to combat that and also not sure my SB with 1 ofs is the right kind.

not sure how this compares to the list already shown, as the MD is pretty much the same but SBs vary.

[The Rack]

The SB looks like it wants Death Wish main. Why Misdirection over Force of will? Any particuilar reasons?

[Bovinious]

Yea I was also considering Death Wish main, but the mana cost could be hard to cast (double black) without songs mana which may be needed for a deadly consume spirit, but could be doable if another petal/C sphere are boarded in.

I choose Misdirection over FoW for a few reasons, basically I think that it is more versatile, both cards can handle Force of Will or another counter (pretty sure u can MisD a counter to the MisD), but MisD also helps when someone casts a Hymn to Tourach/Sinkhole or anything that you can shoot back at them with MisD, I suppose Force of Will would be an equally good card to use as protection, although FoW can stop cards such as Duress, which say target opponent, as MisD cannot, but FoW also cannot redirect their Sinkhole/Hymn to their own land, buying me a few turns, these differences only arise if its in my hand at the beginning of the game, as I cannot think of 1 card that 1 option stops and the other does not that would stop me from winning after cycling my deck, so I suppose either is viable, I just chose Misdirection. I originally had a Force of Will main and a MisD sideboard, not sure why I made the change to be honest.

[Grim]

I had an idea for a death wish fluctuator deck. The deck would run four death wishes maindeck, then a some sort of special toolbox designed to upgrade resiliency versus cards like Leyline and Tormod. I'm not sure how it would work. Sorry if I am not contributing much in the field of innovation. I like this deck but I'm not sure how to improve it.

Let's all take bets on how long before this topic gets locked...

[The Rack]

Death Wish has been discussed before however I'm glad you brought it up. It can fetch anything! However there really isn't much too offer for black. In the Tendrils Version it has been ran MD along with the kill and everything else. It can fetch Stifle and such but I'm not sure if it will make it more consistent. Thanks for the input!

[The Rack]

Does this cycling creature base look solid?
4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Disciple of Malice
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Disciple of Grace
4 Disciple of Law
= Tendrils version
4 Wild Dogs
4 Shimmering Barrier
4 Darkwatch Elves
= The tendrils version plus those.

The Miscalculation is up to 4 along with a single Expunge. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Bovinious]

My cycling base is:

24 US Cycling lands

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Sandbar Serpent
4 Pendrell Drake
4 Drifting Djinn
4 Primoc Escapee
4 Keeneye Aven

But I dont play any non blue creature spells, i put all those in SB and play 1 Fow/MisD main, hense the blue cards, and creatures for the sake of songs/misery.

[The Rack]

The blue creature base is very easy to obtain. I"m wondering if my mukti colored critter base is optimal. Any suggestions?

[herbig]

The blue creature base is very easy to obtain. I"m wondering if my mukti colored critter base is optimal. Any suggestions?

What are your arguements for it being optimal? You run Force in the board. Do you plan on playing any of the creatures? Actually wait you can't. Blue it is.

After extensive playtesting I have taken the liberty of writing a Fluctuator miniprimer:

Basically all you are looking for is to play Fluctuator. Easy right? Slightly. This deck has no cards other than your 3 card combo and four Fluctuators. The rest (88%) of your deck is made up of horrible cards that just so happen to cycle for two. Come to think of it, only one of the cards in Fluctuator has ever seen tournament play, and it has never once been used to cycle.

The Mulligan:
So your gameplan is to play Fluctuator and win. But, you have no draw or tutors, removal or protection, so you will rely entirely on the mulligan strategy. Here is the secret: when you fan open your hand, you should be looking for two things; either a Fluctuator or a Blasted Landscape. If one of them is there, keep it. If not, mulligan, but only once. After your first mulligan you are essentially stuck, since you cannot afford to go down another card, potentially slowing your combo. If you don't have it after that you are a slave to the topdeck.

But why Blasted Landscape? In the absence of Fluctuator, this allows you to start cycling turn 2, simulating the draw spells that every competative combo deck runs. That way you can dig for your Fluctuator, which is no doubt hiding within the next few cards. Keep playing a land every turn, since your hand caps out at 7 anyways, and eventually you can start cycling two and then three a turn. Fluctuator is in there somewhere.

Percentages:
The two mulligan strategy works surprisingly well. Google tells me the chance of drawing a four of in your opening hand is roughly 40%. I'm no math whiz, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you draw two hands, that nearly doubles your chances of finding your Fluctuator to 80%. I'll take those chances over your opponent's 40% chance of having Force any day.

How to play around hate:
You can't. Basically you must race it. But thats not hard, given the deck can combo out on turn two fairly consistently (off of that Blasted Landscape). So you're really only worried about the hate that comes down within the first two turns. Some try to side in protection, but that only weakens the combo, leaving you with a hand of Forces vs their turn 0 Leyline. I say protection is for those who don't pull out in time. This has nothing to do with Fluctuator, just a personal saying.

Where Fluctuator fits in:
Fluctuator fits somewhere between Iggy Pop and Solidarity in speed, given that it can never combo on turn 1, and usually goes off turn 3. For consistency, it is strictly better than Channel/Fireball, since it is essentially a one card combo, but may occasionally be raced by Spark Elemental/Blazing Shoal/Blazing Shoal/Myojin of Infinite Rage/Myojin of Infinite Rage decks. Play this deck if your meta consists of Yu-Gi-Oh players.

[The Rack]

What was your test deck? I'm curiious to see your SB also.

[Bovinious]

When Ive been testing the deck I have used the mulligan strategy, but sometimes I would go to 5 if the 6 card hand has no land and no flux. Probably a moot point because that game might not be winnable either way (5 cards or 6 bad ones), but if playing against a slow deck w/o counters, waiting it out wiht a better 5 cards may be the way to go, of course if you know what your opponent is playing...Other than that rare situation I agree with your analysis

[The Rack]

It really all depends on what deck you are playing. My matchup analysis on the front page really sums up every matchup.

herbig:
Even if you were sarcastic for that miniprimer it addressed the deck very well. As true as it was :cry: . Would it be alright to use on the front page?

bovinious:
How is 24 cycling lands working for you? Ever not get enough mana from songs due to too many lands?

everyone:
should expunge be played over swat? I'm looking for some critter kill that cycles. Expunge has constraints whereas swat has some too. Any insight on this?

[Bovinious]

With the 24 cycling lands I still play 29 creatures, 28 of them blue for the FoW i have SB (the last is a single Disciple of Law in case I need a blocker to stall a turn against goblins, but thats not important). The 24 lands has been good especially against Wasteland, and for situations where I need to mulligan once (or twice). I was think of cutting 1 or 2, but could not decide what color to cut, or what to put in really, a creature w/ cycling = a land w/ cycling as long as I have enough comes songs time, which i do 98% of the time.

In my SB i play expunge over swat for a few reasons:

1. I had forgotten Swat even existed.
2. Swat has BB in its cost, whihc could be hard to get pre songs.
3. What creature would you need to kill that's black or artifact? I thought expunge was SB to kill Meddling Mage and occaisionally a True Believer. basically not many creatures hurt this deck so the slightly easier mana cost and 2- restraint of Swat make me choose Expunge.

I think the time has come to develop a sideboard, the mainboard is pretty much set in stone, althought there are minor differences all MDs are essentially the same.

[The Rack]

My SB for now:
1 Chromatic Sphere - for filtering
1 Overmaster - a very cool way of winng in their face
1 Expunge - for the pesky Meddling Mage and True Believer
1 Defense Grid - draws out their counter
1 Rapid Decay- GY hate
1 Drain Life - for alternate win if mage is on board
1 Haunting Misery - keeps the opponent on the edge
1 Dark Ritual - for Haunting Misery win side out Songs
1 Scrap - stupid artifacts
1 Clear - stupid enchantments
1 Repopulate - GY hate and has ferrets on the picture VERY COOL!!
1 Force of Will - Freikin hard boiled awesome sauce!

= 12 SB cards so far

I'm wondering about Krosan Grip and Abeyance. It makes crypt not so terrible and abeyance nets you a card. Any other suggestions anyone?

I also changed to all blue cyclers in both decks by the way. Thanks for enlightening me!

[Bovinious]

My SB is very similar to yours right now, but ill post it and explain my choices as some do differ:

1 Petal - mana fixer after SB, or if they counter 1st one
1 Dark Ritual - win with misery
1 Haunting Misery - alt win, surprise em if they play medlding mage
1 FoW - general protection
1 C Sphere - another mana fixer post SB
1 Abeyance - more protection, draws a card if u draw it mid combo
1 Crypt - GY hate
1 Clear - damn enchantment
1 Repopulate - MVP vs crypt
1 Expunge - damn Mage/Believer
1 Rapid Decay - GY hate thats cycles
1 Scrap - damn artifacts
1 Drain Life - Alt win, mage
1 Swords to Plowshares -
1 Stifle - geneally useful, not sure against what specifically

So, we agree on:

1 C Sphere
1 Expunge
1 Rapid Decay
1 Drain Life
1 Dark Ritual
1 Haunting Misery
1 Scrap
1 Clear
1 Repopulate
1 FoW
_______

10 cards agreed on

After comparing our SBs, I really think that the rest should be Overmaster, Defense Grid, Lotus Petal, Stifle, and Abeyance, MAYBE 1 Tormod's Crypt, but at least we got the first 10 sorta set in stone.

[The Rack]

I totally forgot about stifle. It is in there automaticaly against crypt. I'm curious to your decision on Lotus Petal. Is it simply a mana fixer? I do agree that Abeyance could be included but the white might be a problem. I also overlooked tht repopulate can return your own MVP for sure. Could you post your MD for us? I am sure they are both the same but just for the heck of it. The SB has now 13 autoinclude with my first 10 along with Overmaster, Defense Grid and Stifle. The last 2 slots are open to a crap load of stuff. They could be Abeyance, Orim's Chant, Lotus Petal, or Swords t Plowshares. I'm curious to see your MD and opinions on these SB slots.

[Bovinious]

My MD right now is:

4 Blasted Landscape
4 Slippery Karst
4 Remote Isle
4 Polluted Mire
4 Drifting Meadow
4 Smoldering Crater

4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Sandbar Serpent
4 Drifting Djinn
4 Primoc Escapee
4 Keeneye Aven
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Pendrell Drake
1 Disciple of Law (I needed 1 more cycling creature, no more blue ones exist so this guy is in here to MAYBE stall a turn once in a while vs goblins)

1 Songs of the Damned
1 Consume Spirit
1 Lotus Petal
4 Fluctuator

___________________

The petal is in there because the deck cannot rely on having any color of mana, so to help cast the SB cards it is in mine along wiht C Sphere. My sideboard now is:

1 C Sphere
1 Expunge
1 Rapid Decay
1 Drain Life
1 Dark Ritual
1 Haunting Misery
1 Scrap
1 Clear
1 Repopulate
1 FoW
1 Stifle
1 Overmaster
1 Defense Grid
1 Abeyance
1 Lotus Petal

The last 2 could be STP or Orim's Chant I suppose, but Abeyance draws a card which can come in handy, and stops activated abilities. Expunge already can take care of any creature we need to stop so I dont see a reason to include STP as of now.

[The Rack]

My MD is yours except -1 Disciple of Law +1 Misdirection.

That SB looks optimal and I now understand why Petal is in there. I'm posting the now optimal suicide version of Fluctuator!

[Bovinious]

Yea that Disciple of Law may come out for either a MisD/FoW, its just that having that extra non cycler slows the deck down so much game 1, but I'm trying to figure out if its worth not autolosing to 1 FoW, whihc it probably is.

[The Rack]

Can we agree that this is the best Fluctuator will ever be? (until newer sets add stuff to it) The suicide version is optmal along with it's SB.Is there anything else we could possibly do to improve anything for the suicide version?

[Bovinious]

I think that this is probably optimal, unless in the future cards are printed that can win with a lot of creatures in GY in a less than 3 card combo, this is as good as it gets. I suppose depending on the meta 7 or 8 non cyclers (including a MisD/Fow MD as the 8th) is the only variation that should ever arise, unless we completely missed something.

[The Rack]

Now that the suicide version is OPTIMAL!!! (yay!), Tendrils Flux is now the discussion top for this thread unless anyone else has any other ?'s regarding the first.

The SB is the main topic right now. Any suggestions are accepted.

[Bovinious]

How does the tendrils Flux even work? I'd like to see a basic list so I can start to see if I like it better than suicide, but I doubt I will heh.

[The Rack]

The Tendrils list was just edited in. The Tenrils version is really neat because it allows a 1st turn win and more consistently a 2nd turn win. It usually plays out like this.
Lotus Riual Flux Cycle Ritual/Songs Reaping reapeat reapeat Tendrils Tendrils. That's usually how the deck plays out. Any other ?'s ? I just oticed you don't run Miscalculation. I think I'm going to drop 4 critters for the counters. Why not?

[Bovinious]

Actually that deck looks pretty kool, but why not just have all blue creatures like the suicide version, this would allow for FoW/MisD SB, and after all Miscalculation is never actaully casted is it?

[The Rack]

The Tendrils version is supposed to full of Blue i just forgot. I actually do hardcast Miscalculation quite a few times against a Hymn or a trouble card. I would definately consider it in yours. The Tendrils version now has all blue cyclers! Here's the list for all of you who are too lazy to look on the front page. The Miscalculation can also be pithced to Force so there is no downside. REaping the graves with a storm count of 20 with only 2 creatures in the yard can still draw you 20 cards.

Here's the Tendrils based version of the deck:

Newest Decklist:

4 Fluctuator
4 Reaping the Graves

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Pendrell Drake
4 Keeneye Aven
4 Primoc Escapee
4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Miscalculation

4 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Dark Ritual

4 Polluted Mire
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Remote Isle

And the SB:
4 Dodecapod
3 Spoils of the Vault
2 Divert
3 Force of Will
3 Duress

[Bovinious]

I'm gunna play and test the deck for a while and tell you my thoughts on it, at first glance I think the mana count is low but I may chane my mind after testing.

[The Rack]

For the suicide version. Is FoW better MD than Misdirection MD? Have fun testing it Bovinious and by the way. Check your PMs.

[Bovinious]

Ive just been playing the Tendrils version for like 20 mins on MWS, and I gotta say that I like way this deck play out better than suicide version, that is when I get that far. However, I am already finding that this deck is much worse off without Fluctuator and desperatly want lotus petals/mana. Im thinking maybe Chrome Moxen may be a good fit in here, and maybe even a few cabal ritual.

Also, I have a question about how the way this deck works, not sure if youve ever encounter this situation but here it is.

lets say I have a Fluctuator out, Ive comboed/cycled for a while and have a storm count of say 7, about 6 black mana floating, a reaping the graves in hand but only 2 creatures in my GY. At first this looked like I had crapped out but Im wondering if I can resolve 2 of the reaping the graves storm copies bringing back my 2 creatures, then cycle them both before the next copies resolve so I can return those same 2 creatures witht he next 2 Reapings, and just do this til all my Reapings Copies are gone. If this can be done then thats a great way to get out of the jam but this doesnt come up the often im sure.

[Bovinious]

I think that FOW is prolly better than MisD, I think when I originally used MisD I thoguht you could change abilities targets, which of course you cant.

[The Rack]

Yes Reaping the Graves works that way. That's why it is so great. I agree that it is much more dependent on Flux for sure. However it can go off turn 1 which is always nice. Cabal Rituals can be used and Chrome mowen can be used too. I agree with you on thew FoW and the MisD. Thanks.

[Bovinious]

After more playing, I think this is a deck where Serum Powder can used to find Fluctuator. In suicide, it couldnt be used because it removed the original cards from the game, and if 1 of the cards was a combo piece, you were screwed, or if you removed 6 of the 28 creatures. In the tendrils version, all combo pieces are a 4 of so barring some 3 Reapings 3 Tendrils hands, I think that 2-4 Serum Powder could get the job done here. What do you think?

[Iranon]

Technically, the maths is off in the primer, but things work out similar in the end:


Chance to draw a 4-of the first time: 40%
Chance to draw it after mulliganing once: 35%

Chance to draw it when prepared to mulligan once for it (= 0.4+0.6*0.35): 61%.

Chance to draw a fluctuator turn 2/3 on the play if you don't have it yet: roughly 15% and 14%; for a combined chance of 27%.

--> total chance of having at least one fluctuator in hand turn 3 given the "mulligan once if I don't have it at first" approach: about 72% when on the play, almost 80% on the draw.

Of course, there are other issues that could prevent you from going off/cause you to fizzle, but I thought this might be helpful for anyone who dismisses the deck because it relies on a single card without tutors; that aspect isn't as crippling as one might think.

***

The maths is simple, now to the more difficult question: Is there any reason to play this over other combo other than humiliating your opponent with a deck worth about as much as a kid's meal?

I won't go into Belcher, Nausea and Solidarity; those aren't strictly superior because the former occasionally roll over and die to general amusement and Solidarity is about as fast as an anaemic slug (yes, it has a zillion other benefits. Not the point, this deck is better in its goldfish speed, if nothing else).

However, are there any advantages over Iggy Pop or Spring Tide? I doubt it has the edge in speed.
Iggy Pop doesn't fizzle without outside interference and the ability to randomly Mind Twist is nothing to be sneezed at.
Spring Tide can draw its way out of quite a lot of disruption and has an excellent cumulative chance to go by the time it matters (usually. turn 3 on the draw, 4 on the play). Moreover, both also seem more robust even without their disruption/control elements.

[The Rack]

The reason tis deck can be played is because Hymn doesn't mean gg. Hymn IGGy Pop and their clock just went to turn 6-7. Flux can still go strong due to the lands and draw engine from the cyclers. Tahnk you for the math by the way. It is very helpful.

Bovinious: Serum Powder definately needs to be in here. I origanally tried it with the suicide version but wasn't impressed. The only problem is that you end up clogging mid combo because of it. However it lowers your fizzling rate if you get rid of 7 cards to begin with and starting of the game with a 46 card deck.

[Bovinious]

What your saying does have some merit, there are decks that are faster and more reliable. However, just because this is true doesnt mean that 1 is better than the other every single time, thats one of the great things about Magic, the better deck/player does not win every time, there are factors such as mana screw and luck that can occur to make a slightly slower deck have the advantage. Also, we are not proposing that this deck is by any means superior to every other combo deck, we just took an idea and are trying to make it as good as possbile, which may not be as good as some other decks. I do see your point if your saying "Why play this deck when I can play Iggy Pop?", but there are other reasons people may want to play this one such as if its more fun to them, or because the deck is cheaper, for example.

[Bovinious]

Yea same thing with me, I tried it in the suicide and it didnt work, but in here it has almost no drawbacks, Id rather draw 2 serums mid combo and win next turn than never win because I never saw a Fluctautor. The only question is what to cut, I think maybe some of the combo cards, since they are all 4 ofs perhaps a few can be cut safely:

Perhaps this, and please give me your feedback on this:

+3/4 Serum Powder

- 1 Tendrils of Agony
- 1/2 Miscalculation
- 0/1 Dark Ritual
- 0/1 Reaping the Graves

I personally am going to try - 1 tendrils, -1 reaping, and -2 miscalc, but Im not sure at all if this is wise so what do you think?

[The Rack]

First let's look at what is absolutely essential to the deck.
Fluctuator 4
Reaping the Graves is ABSOLUTELY NEEDED as a 4 of
Miscalculation is only needed as cycling for the most part so I'd say an auto 2 of
Songs is a 4 of
That leaves us with Tendrils and Ritual
I personally would cut 1 Tendrils
1 Dark Ritual
and 2 Miscalculation
Reaping is just too critical to leave. Plus Powder may even get rid of more. Something to look at also. I will do some testing also.

[Bovinious]

Yea I guess Reaping the Graves kinda reads "Draw X cards where X is creatures in GY" in this deck. I actually came to a similar conclusion to you, I took out 1 Tendrils, 2 Miscalc, and 1 Reaping, but now I realze thats not smart. Im gunna test the serum powders tonight/ tommorow.

[The Rack]

Serum Powder can be a great card and can be a total bust sometimes. Chrome Mox is going to be warranted a slot after some testing. Any other good manaccel out there that we are missing? I'm wondering if Chromatic Sphere should be in there too. It will be hard to make a optimal list for the Tendrils version. Any help would be appreciated.

[Iranon]

My question whether there was a justification to play the deck in either version was an honest one; I didn't mean it to come across "Play Iggy Pop or Spring Tide instead". For example, I had assumed that random discard would be every bit as problematic as with other decks; glad to read that is not the case.

Hardly relevant, but I also like the amusing option to pretend you're bad skies aggro or bad Solidarity (Songs are the New High Tide! Who needs draw spells when they can cycle!) if your primary game plan fails. Beating people upside the head with Elvish Spirit guides in desperation or any equivalent thereof impresses the girls to not end. Considering some people will mulligan into hate more agressively than they perhaps should, you might even win a game that way once in a blue moon...

***

Does the Tendrils version retain some of this resilency to random discard you praised, or does the increased number of non-cyclers pose a problem? I can certainly see the potential in that, the chance to go off turn 1/2 is huge. Not because that happens often, but because the chance can cause nervous breakdowns in sleep- and caffeine-deprived opponents -> more misplays.

***

Have you considered Underground Sea and Twisted Abomination? Compared to your cycle lands, normal ones are fast mana in their own right (equivalent to lotus petal + cycling land if you have it before your land drop).
Twisted Abomination is a credible threat that cycles for your best permanent mana source, and its steep mana cost when hardcast should be a minor issue if you need it (in the face of a Mage naming Tendrils, or a True Believer or anything of that kind).

[Bovinious]

I think the tendrils version is a little more resilient to discard, because there are multiples of your combo cards so if you discard one you can draw into anohter, but of course it slows the deck down a lot. I was actually think of adding a twisted abomination and a swamp, but an underground sea could be good too. The only reason it may not be so good is 1. it doesnot draw a card (or a useful one for the combo unless you need 1 land), 2. It doesnt add to storm count as lotus petal does, and 3. It sucks when drawn while comboing 2nd turn after playing your land for the turn, blasted landscape, to play flux and try to go off, happens more often than you think. Even so, I think the idea is worth a try if we find that there are mana problems that this could solve.

[The Rack]

testing will be made on it. Thanks for the idea!

[Bovinious]

I've done more testing last night and today, and here is my current list, without SB, if anyone has tested somethign successfully that I've ommitted please speak up:

4 Polluted Mire
4 Remote Isle
4 Blasted Landscape

18 Blue Creatures with Cycling (for FoW SB)
4 Disciple of Malice (for Chrome Moxen)

4 Songs
3 Dark Rit
4 Reaping the Graves
4 Fluctuator
3 Tendrils
4 Petal
2 Serum Powder
2 Chrome Mox

I made many changes last night, such as goign down to 2 of each combo piece in favor of more Moxen and Powders, but it didnt do so well imo. I'd still like to fit in 1 or 2 more of each so if anyoen has any suggestions.

[The Rack]

Looks good but what about Empy the Catacombs as some more draw? Sound good?

[Samshire]

So what happens if Tormonds crypt is played? and it's a deck that can counter your spell? Is there a way you can get rid of it without it ruining you?

[The Rack]

You bring in Repopulate in and hope for the best really. You have a Force MD along with a Misdirection SB to deal with counters so a Smash or Repopulate would do the trick.

[Bovinious]

About Empty the Catacombs, if the deck really needs more draw, which im not sure it does, this will be the card. However, this card is worse than Reaping the graves on a lot of levels, 1. costs 4 rather than 3, I cannot tell you the amount of times I have only had 3 mana, played a Reapings, and won from there, 2. its a sorcery. not very important most of the time but whne playing around hate Reaping is better. 3. It can be countered with one counterspell. as we know, you need a stifle to stop storm on Reaping.

I realize you werent proposing it as a replacement, but as additional draw. It does server that purpose as a 2 of perhaps if needed, but then the question is as always what to cut?

@ Samshire: Tormod's crypt can be really devastating, but not totally game ending. First of all, you would never put all your creatures in the GY at once, so if they remove half you can still draw into some a keep going. also, you can play soem mana spells, cyclings, then a Reapings or 2 in response to save ur creatures. Also there is SB hate for artifcats, Scrap and Repopulate for example. So, it is a problem but not an insurmountable one. Id be much mroe worried about turn 0 Leyline of the Void.

[herbig]

You bring in Repopulate in and hope for the best really. You have a Force MD along with a Misdirection SB to deal with counters so a Smash or Repopulate would do the trick.

No, no it will not. Shuffling your creatures back in will not help the fact that you don't have any to get back, and singleton answers that cannot be cast by your deck won't help either.

Restless Dreams is better than Catacombs.

[bigbear102]

Wow.... I really wish I had gotten to this thread before everybody else had.... I think Herbig pretty summed it up in his first post though...

Casual forum ftw.

[The Rack]

Please add something to the thread and not flame. Read the other 3 pages and you will see some constructive criticism from herbig himself, and many others.

@Herbig: why won't Repopulate be an effective answer? If you play good then you cycle your entire deck, play songs, response crack crypt, response repopulate, (while keeping one cycler in hand.), crypt resolves, response to songs cycle your deck, songs for 26 and win. It really isn't THAT hard to pull off.

[herbig]

Discounting the lack of green mana (of which you have 4 sources), what happens when the cycler you saved hits a Fluctuator, Reaping the Graves, or Tendrils, within the first two or three cards?

The situation you describe requires 3GB, meaning you went off turn 3, cycled away into 2x lotus petal, dark ritual, Repopulate, Songs, a cycler, Reaping the Graves, without ever hitting a Tendrils or Fluctuator.

On the draw, undisrupted, after laying a Fluctuator turn 3, your hand size is 7.

Repopulate does the same thing as Crypt to you.

Also, the sorcery speed of Lotus Petal in Tendrils version means artifact destruction suddenly becomes relevent, and will cause you to lose.

[The Rack]

Sorry I thought you were refferring to the suicide version. My mistake. The tendrils version can use Reaping which is basicaly my only answer right now until I can find some sweet new tech. Maybe a needle or 2 in the SB. Not really sure though. Thanks.

[Bovinious]

Yea Reaping the Graves after a few spells is the best hope to solve the problem of crypt, but still not complete protection. I think that Repopulate can be very good against crypt provided that I have the mana to cast it, which be done by petal, ESG SB, C Sphere SB, or 1 Bayou/Trop/Basic Forest and the forestcycler SB, so its not too far out hoping to be able to cast it. And Restless Dreams is terrible, just terrible by the way.

[The Rack]

The Tendrils version would definately need to play through some loopholes to get bak alll the critters and still go off that turn. Why is restless dreams terrible?

[Bovinious]

Well, there are many reasons, 1. Its a sorcery, so even if u do get it, they pop crypt in response, and you cannot respond to crypt wiht Dreams. 2. you need to discard cards, if you wanna return 4ish creatures, its not gauranteed you will hav 4 flux/serum/extra mana cards in hand to discard, and 3. Reaping the Graves does that same thing at instant speed, and is already a 4 of. Mostly though, its because its a sorcery, and unless you wanna use it before crypt ever hits the table, which would be a worse Reaping, it cannot help against crypt at all due to its sorcery speed. And if you are saying it should be used as a further combo enabler, it may be better than Catacombs (maybe), but still not need or warranted imo in the deck at this point. Maybe as a 2 of if you really are worried about the engine, but def not as an anwser to crypt.

[Bovinious]

On another note, Ive been testing the deck more and am getting pretty frustrated, maybe this is a string of bad luck but im finding that If i do not draw a Flux I often do not find one for a while becasue this deck play less land than suicide and cannot keep playing lands and cycling. The deck also runs less cyclers and cannot afford to waste petals/rit/songs on cycling need during combo, so, for this reason combined wiht the negative results Ive gotta from Serum Powder, (not neccessarily negative just not as good as I expected) Ive decided to test the following changes from the list I posted earlier on this page:

-2 Serum Powder
+2 Chrome Mox (more mana accel for a deck that need more than 12 lands worth of mana)

and also, Ive come to the conclusion that I had the right idea adding Serum Powder, I need a way to find Flux, but I think I simply chose the wrong card.

I think either Fabricate or Enlightened Tutor should be warranted a spot, seeing as the deck cna by no mean get W successfully, I will try Fabricate as a 3 of, also, the 2 Chrome Moxen added will help to get the 2U im hoping.

+3 Fabricate

-1 Tendrils of Agony (down to 2, Ive found I very rarely need to double Tendrils yet I have 2 in my hand a lot after comboing.)
-1 Dark Ritual (down to 2, a hard cut to make but it simply is not as good as songs after turn 1/2, and the extra Moxen can help take the place)
-1 Blue cycler (doesnt really matter which, high CC ones are less useful if you need to lay a blocker to stall a turn...)

Not sure how this will work will, I report within the next day or 2, Id like to hear yalls opinions, and I myself am wondering if the deck will have too much trouble resulting from cutting the cards Ive cut to sustain the Flux finder.

[The Rack]

I;m surprised by the choice of Fabricate. Is there really no other search card? I see your point on Restless Dreams too. I might consider it still.

[Bovinious]

Yea surprisingly there is nothing better that I can see, and actually in the 10ish games ive seen it in its done pretty well. I do however think I was rather short about dismissing Restless Dreams/Empty the Catacombs. Sometimes the deck doen need another recursion, and I think that 1 of these as a 2 of would do well, or maybe both as a 1 of as there are times when Im short mana but hav cards (wanting Dreams), and times when I have mana but am short cards (wanting Catacombs). So, I think both should be warranted a spot as a 1 of and if 1 is utterly useless most of the time and the other an MVP, we just make the MVP a 2 of. BTW, Im not missing the Serum at all the Moxen are working well, wiht Fabricate I now have a reason to imprint with U so I dont have to waste a combo part for Mox to be of use. Any opinion on what to cut for the 2 more recursions? I had a hard time cutting for the fabricates and cant see what else may warrant cutting.

EDIT: Just got an idea like 2 mins after writing.

Maybe instead of Fabricate we could try 3 Intuition. It has same cost, is an instant, cna get other cards, but is more risky as it puts 2 Flux in GY and if the 3rd gets counter/destroyed your in trouble. On the plus side it thins the deck for while comboing. What do you think? I like Fabricate a little better but Im not quite sure, I wont change unless I find Fabricate not working.

[herbig]

Muddle the Mixture is clearly better than both Fabricate and Intuition since you're now running Chrome Moxen with a blue cycling base. It even finds Repopulate! On the Repopulate idea, would you instead consider Trickbind or Stifle? Trickbind is on a color that you are playing lands for, can be Muddled, has more than one use, and stops Tormod's Crypt, unlike Repopulate. Stifle is a full mana less. Repopulate does wreck reanimator though.

[Moczoc]

What about Spoils of the Vault? It gets Flux at instant speed for only B and the drawback is acceptable in (fast) combodecks.

[SillyMetalGAT]

What about Spoils of the Vault? It gets Flux at instant speed for only B and the drawback is acceptable in (fast) combodecks.

RFG ftl!

[The Rack]

herbig: Muddle the Mixture looks very good. However the UU might be hard. Intuition would be useful midcombo unlike Fabricate or Muddle. i already pack a Stifle in the Sb but are the benefits of Trickbind worth the extra cost? That's what I'm contemplating.

[Bovinious]

I was thinking the same thing about Muddle the Mixture, it seems better in every way except the UU. The deck only runs 12 blue sources, 4 moxen, 4 petal, 4 remote isle, so I dont think UU can be consistently available. However I suppose its worth a try. Also, I dont think Intuition is as good as either Muddle or Fabricate.

@ Trickbind: Since this deck is playing blue, this is probably strictly better than Repopulate against Crypt, since they cannot counter it and it keeps the creatures in your GY so hopefully you can still win that turn, also it can be Muddled for and played as a 1 (maybe 2) of as to not slow down the cycling (repopulate cycles when unneeded).

[The Rack]

@everyone: should Muddle the Mixture be in the tendrls? It is not only a great fetch but also a great counter. Is Serum Powder out of this deck now too? Bovinious could you post your list?

[Bovinious]

After trying it out a little I decided that the UU on Muddle is not attainable on a regular basis, so I decided to put Fabricates back in as they do the job Muddle does 80% of the time, and is castable most of the time. my current list is the following:

17 Blue Creatures with cycling 2 (again, low cc better for the .1% of games where you may wanna cast one)

4 Disciple of Malice (Black for Chrome Moxen)

4 Songs of the Damned
4 Chrome Mox
4 Fluctuator
4 Reaping the Graves
4 Lotus Petal
3 Fabricate
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Dark Ritual

__________________________________

Sideboard is currently still under construction but here is the current one:

4 Stifle (Trickbind if Muddle is to be used, or maybe even over Stifle otherwise)
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth


MD suggestions/testing experiences would be kool, and any advice on the SB, not sure if all those cards need to be 4 ofs but dont know what else is needed.

[The Rack]

Have you tested Intuition instead of Fabricate? It seems really good at thinning out your dekc along with getting a combo piece. I'll test it on my own.

[Bovinious]

I havent tested Intuition, and I do see that it would be better to think your deck, and also the instant speed can be useful. If however the Intuition is allowed to resolve and then they counter your Flux, you are in dire straights to draw the lone 4th one and hope it is not countered. Right now that alone is enough of a reason for me myself to keep Fabricate over Intuition.

[The Rack]

The benefit of Intuition is the fact that midcombo it is great at thinning out my deck. Pretty synergistic mid combo. I do see your point with Flux so that alone will keep me away from it.

[Cavius The Great]

I know this is a little off topic, but have you guys considered a build that abuses Stoic Champion. I actually have a decklist put together that uses Fluctuator and Stoic Champion along with Lightning Rift and Astral Slide to clear the way for the little guy. The deck is basically able to attack with a 20/20 Stoic Champion or bigger. It's just a little thought I'd thought I'd throw out there. :wink:

[Bovinious]

Id think that Stoic Champion wouldnt be as good as a lethal Tendrils for a few reasons, he doesnt have haste so youd have to wait a turn, and also, you have to draw him, and if you cycle a lot of cards to get him, you dont have much left to make him grow, plus he doesnt even have trample or anything, I cant see him being better than Tendrils at all. Also, Im not sure Astral Slide really has a place here, but I suppose Lightnining Rift could be decent since that songs mana could be used to ping whenever you cycle, only problem being getting red mana to play it consistantly could be a problem but could be an alternate win condition.

[The Rack]

I think he was talking a more control build using Champion as the win. Cavius: what does your build look like rightnow? I am curious to see this list and may start working on it.

[Cavius The Great]

plus he doesnt even have trample or anything

He doesn't need trample if you cycle out all the blockers with Astral Slide. You can also ping the blockers away with Lightning Rift.


I think he was talking a more control build using Champion as the win. Cavius: what does your build look like rightnow? I am curious to see this list and may start working on it.

True, True brotha, it is more control oriented. I wish I could give you the decklist right now but I'm visiting my Dad for the weekend and my ride is here. I'll definitely post the decklist this Monday. Sorry for making you wait. :wink:

[Bovinious]

So basically like a r/w rifter deck with Fluxs for the combo win possibility? Sounds like it could be a good idea but itd be hard to make a good list, or have a stable mana base if ur still gunna use recursion the black offers (Reaping or Empty).

[Cavius The Great]

Here's the Stoic Champion/Fluctuator deck I was talking about.

Mana:24
4 Blasted Land (cycling land)
4 Drifting Meadow (white cycling land)
4 Smoldering Crater (red cycling land)
4 Plateau
4 Secluded Steppes (Odyssey cycling land)
4 Chrome Mox

Combo:8
4 Stoic Champion
4 Fluctuator

Key Spells:8
4 Astral Slide
4 Lightning Rift

Cycling Spells:20
4 Slice and Dice
4 Renewed Faith
4 Lay Waste
4 Starstorm
4 Gilded Light

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
11 (open slots)

I had this decklist in one of my notebooks for like 3 years and stumbled upon it. I can't even remember if I tested the deck. The build is merely "ok" with a lot of room for improvement. I want to somehow fit Lotus Petal and Ancient Tomb to accelerate the combo. I'm not sure though, what do you guys think?

[The Rack]

Cavius: Do you think we should start from a rifter deck and build it from there? If so, I'll look for the most up to date list. I really like this idea...

[Cavius The Great]

I actually saw a Stoic Champion build in the Scrye magazine like 3-4 years back. It wasn't an article, it actually was an in-magazine tourney report in the classified. The deck won like 1st place out of like 25-30 ppl. I don't even think it ran Fluctuator. The format was still 1.5 and not titled Legacy yet. Man, I wish I still had that magazine issue.

[Bovinious]

Man, old 1.5, before 'Legacy' those were the days, when i always got pwnt with mana drains and bazaars but could still play goblin recruiter lawl.

Id bet Scrye has it online, I dont know for sure, or maybe someone who subscribes keeps all the old ones, Id bet someone on the Source does.

[Cavius The Great]

I actually keep most my old issues. The thing is, I moved twice in the span of six years and I think I threw out my older issues in the moving process. I actually thought I had my old issues of "Sideboard" magazine, which had gems of information, but couldn't find them when I went to look for them. I'm still kicking myself in the ass for throwing them out, because they had a wealth of information and the extended decks back then could easily be ported to Legacy (they even ran duals!! Yes, duals were legal in Extended for a short time.)

[herbig]

I'm still kicking myself in the ass for throwing them out, because they had a wealth of information and the extended decks back then could easily be ported to Legacy (they even ran duals!! Yes, duals were legal in Extended for a short time.)

The printed word is dead. Try google. And Scrye magazine? Thats as valuable a source as Fox News.

So how has tournament performance been working out for this deck, since we are now about 1 month and 113 replies into development. This is the third most talked about deck on the front page of the Developmental forum, surely someone has tried this out against some opponents?

[Cavius The Great]

The printed word is dead. Try google. And Scrye magazine? Thats as valuable a source as Fox News.

So how has tournament performance been working out for this deck, since we are now about 1 month and 113 replies into development. This is the third most talked about deck on the front page of the Developmental forum, surely someone has tried this out against some opponents?

It actually wasn't a decklist featured in the magazine, it was in their special tourney report "classified" section. And yes, I understand you scoffing at Scrye magazine, believe me, I do too. I was an avid fan of "The Duelist" back in the day. :wink:

[The Rack]

Herbig: I really do need to take it to a local tournament. I have had great success with the Drain Life based one but am still taking out the kinks in the Tendrils. It is a fun deck and I like beating Goblins sooo much with it. I might take it to a tourney tommorrow but maybe not.. who knows? I test the deck religiously and own the complete deck, all in FOILS!!!!. Fluctuator may be competitive. I'd like to thank everyone for all the help. Even the naysayers that strengthened my strive to make a good, fun, inexspensive deck. Thanks Bovinious, Cavius The Great, Herbig, and everyone else!

[Cavius The Great]

Yo Rack, I'll goldfish with the Stoic Champion build on MWS a bit and tell you how it plays. I hope that helps.

[Bovinious]

If I ever get around to buying the all the card I dont own, which means forking out like 30 bucks, I can play it at a local tourney. Until then Ill just keep testing on MWS and play Vial Goblins irl.

[The Rack]

Cavius: what list are you currently using? The list above? If so.. we need to fix a lot of stuff...maybe everything...yes everything. :P. I'll try out a rifter shell and through Champion in there because hes a CHAMP! Good luck with testing.

[Bovinious]

Yea so this weekend I finally got around to completing the suicide Fluctuator deck in real life by borrowing from a friend and buying the rest of the cards. On Saturday I took it to a local tournament and went 1-2. The list I played was:

24 Urza'a Saga cycling lands (4 of each color and 4 colorless)

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Sandbar Serpent
4 Pendrell Drake
4 Drifting Djinn
4 Primoc Escapee
4 Keeneye Aven
1 Disciple of Law

4 Fluctuator
1 Lotus Petal
1 Songs of the Damned
1 Drain Life

SB:

1 Haunting Misery
1 Dark Ritual
1 Consume Spirit
1 Force of Will
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Defense Gride
1 Stifle
1 Repopulate
1 Scrap
1 Expunge
1 Gilded Light
1 Clear
2 Other cards I dont remember and arent in the SB anymore

Round 1: vs R/w Vial Goblins

Game 1 he goes first and plays a Mountain, which I was very happy to see, he plays a first turn Lackey. Since I went first I use a blue land I had played last turn to play a sandbar merfolk in hopes to block. He had a Gempalm Incinerator to anwser, Lackey connected and dropped something that wasnt too scary. I drew Fluctuator and won on turn 3 I think.
Game 2 he sideboarded in 5 cards, I have no clue what they could be but i figure some GY hate so I sideboard in Repopulate and Scrap, and my 2 other win cards, Haunting Misery and Dark Ritual. He plays a turn 1 Vial, turn 2 pithing needle on Cloud of Faeries. On my 3rd turn I played a Fluctator which I had had all along and cycled until my hand was full of Cloud of Faeries, and passes the turn. The next turn I drew, kept cycling until I found Scrap, and luckily I had a red land so I was able to kill the Needle, cycle the Faeries, and win that turn. I won 2-0 but actually got pretty lucky in that I did get a Fluctuator early both games.

1-0

Round 2: vs Solidarity

This is a matchup which is not winnable at all for this deck, game 1 I draw 3 Fluctuators over 6 or 7 turns and they are all met with a Force of Will, he eventually recovers from the card disadvantage and beats me.
For game 2 I sideboard in my lone Force of Will, a Gilded Light, Repopulate, Haunting Misery, and Dark Ritual. I dont even know if/what he put in. This game goes pretty long, I eventually get an active Fluctuator and start cycling but in response to one he mills me and I lose from my own cycling trigger :(
I did make some mistakes though, I played a Gilded Light at the wrong time but Im not sure it woulda mattered.

1-1

Round 3: vs Solidarity again

Yea I knew I was gunna lose this one, I basically just get beaten in 2 sorta long games, sideboarding similarly to last matchup but to no avail. I also misplay Gilded Light in this match game 2, its best to play in response to High Tide which I now know, they have to either have a counter or another Tide to go off on top of it, so it can buy a turn or under some situations maybe win a game. Also, Repopulate after they freeze you can save the game if you hav Force of Will backups, and they dont have too many counters.

1-2

After the tournament I went over to my friend's house and we changed the deck, I mostly changed the SB. Here is my new list:



24 Urza'a Saga cycling lands (4 of each color and 4 colorless)

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Sandbar Serpent
4 Pendrell Drake
4 Drifting Djinn
4 Primoc Escapee
4 Keeneye Aven

1 Miscalculation (still not sure about this last slot, seems better than the Disciple though)

4 Fluctuator
1 Lotus Petal
1 Dark Ritual
1 Haunting Misery (this requires only 20 creatures in GY while Drain life needs 22)

SB:

1 Ghitu Fire (Instant kill, may help to "go off" instantly sometimes, only costs R more than Songs ----> Consume Spirit
1 Consume Spirit (Alt win for meddling mage etc.)
2 Songs of the Damned (for alt win and vs counters)
1 Repopulate
1 Scrap
1 Expunge
1 Clear
1 Gilded Light
1 Regrowth (vs counters or to reuse a spell)
2 Lotus Petal (for Ghitu Fire and other SB cards)
3 Force of Will (more protection)

Id like to fit in another Repopulate either MD/SB, that card helps in so many situations, maybe can be that 60th slot but Im not sure, also a 4th FoW would seem nice too.

Well thats all for now, I may play the deck again soon not sure, if I do ill keep you all posted.

[The Rack]

Glad to see that you took it to a tourney bovinious. I am curious to whether or not your new SB slows you down toom much mid combo. What do you think?

[Cavius The Great]

On Saturday I took it to a local tournament and went 1-2.

Why on earth would you even post the list if you went 1-2? That is beyond me. I make Top8s that I don't even talk about. :rolleyes:

[Bovinious]

Was just posting to give yall an update on the deck, wasnt bragging about going 1-2 or anything(lawl), although getting paired against Solidarity twice is pretty damn unlucky, and no one would make top 8 against Soidaritys wiht this deck ><

The SB worked okay for me, the deck does lose some speed but its worth it so I dont just lose automatically to disruption.

[The Rack]

After hearing how bad solidarity is, would Brain Freeze in the SB be appropriate? Gilded Lights should be in there. Any other ideas on anti Solidarity cards that could really help this matchup?? Thanks for the report Bovinious.

[Bovinious]

Ok guys, The Rack and I came up with an interesting idea on how to make the suicide version more resilient to hate, while not sacrificing too much speed. It involves the Ravnica card Empty the Catacombs (3B, each player returns all creatures in GY to hand).

This is the list i am currently goldfishing/testing, not too much experience yet but it looks good and has played out well thusfar:

4 Blasted Landscape
4 Polluted Mire
3 Smoldering Crater
3 Slippery Karst
3 Remote Isle
3 Drifting Meadow

3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Sandbar Serpent
4 Pendrell Drake
4 Drifting Djinn
3 Primoc Escapee
3 Keeneye Aven

4 Fluctuator
3 Lotus Petal
3 Songs of the Damned
3 Empty the Catacombs
1 Drain Life
1 Consume Spirit

SB:

2 Ghitu Fire
1 Repopulate
1 Scrap
1 Expunge
1 Clear
1 Gilded Light
1 Lotus Petal
1 Regrowth
1 Brain Freeze
1 Slippery Karst
1 Smoldering Crater
3 Force of Will

Some analysis/explainations of the changes:

Originally we were going to cut only creatures and play 4 songs/empty, i quickly realized that this led to too few creatures and lots of crapping out, so I cut 1 land of each non-black color (need black for the songs, empty), and 3 creatures, to add 3 songs and 3 emptys, and another win spell. Also, with this addition and for resiliency we knew more Petals were needed, but with the cutting of 4 land I thought 3 MD 1 SB was appropriate so they could provide one time use and still be available later in the deck, and also for SB cards. 1/1 split of consume/drain for meddling magi. This version has so far been about 1 and sometimes 2 turns slower than the suicide version after getting Flux, mainly b/c if u dont get an empty/songs/petal (meaning u get flooded wiht Fluxs, or all of 1 of the afforementioned cards), you must wait a turn, sometimes 2. However, this way with 3 of each card, 1 counterspell doesnt make you scoop, nor hand destruction, etc.

The SB was just thrown together, I put in 2 lands, of the 2 colors i felt most crucial after black, red b/c of ghitu fire alt win, and green b/c repopulate is awesome :)

Ill post testing results at a later date, soemtime after Christmas most likely.

[The Rack]

Hey Bovinious, that looks like a really good list. I think there only needs to be 2 Petals though. Maybe 2 Empty the Catacombs too? I've been testing this version a lot and I still seem to get screwey clogs in the deck. Have you ran into that problem?

[Radley]

i can't see this deck deck winning in legacy tournaments.

will be fun to play though. my classmate beat me with fluctuator deck about 5-6 years ago while i use a standard rebel deck, although he only won once against me because it's so inconsistent :laugh:

[Lego]

After hearing how bad solidarity is, would Brain Freeze in the SB be appropriate?

Don't do this, you'll just activate Flash of Insight. Ideally, you want to disrupt Solidarity before they can combo off, because otherwise they own the stack, which makes it harder for you to disrupt them.

That said, isn't there another inconsistent combo deck you can choose that doesn't autolose to counters?

[The Rack]

Don't do this, you'll just activate Flash of Insight. Ideally, you want to disrupt Solidarity before they can combo off, because otherwise they own the stack, which makes it harder for you to disrupt them.

That said, isn't there another inconsistent combo deck you can choose that doesn't autolose to counters?

To your question, yes there are, many of them. This thread wasn't made to crack open the format, just to make the Fluctuator combo deck as good as it can be. Which obviously isn't very good, which was expected by everyone. No skin off my back, I'll move on to a different and better, non mainstream deck. You'll hear back :).

If there is anything else that should be added to the list or dropped let me know. Thank You.

[JohnnyCage]

Has anyone considered unearth for this deck, it in essence adds mana with cloud of faeries. And it cycles, i don't see why it wouldn't be used, if even only in the storm version.

[The Rack]

Glad to see someone looking at the deck again. I don't quite understand how Unearth can help Johhny. You would have to have B open which is unlikely and it takes away from getting up to 20 creatures in the grave. I'm sure I'm missing something so please inform me.

Also, Street Wraith belongs in here. It makes the percentages for Flux in your opening hand quite a bit better when you take out those 4 slots for freebies. The life is never an issue because at latest you go off turn 3 which is pretty good in Legacy (pre Flash era)

Any more ideas?

[Cire]

I never played this deck, yet but i was wondering why serums powder was never utilized, sure it might remove your win condition from the game, but then just run more of your win.

Also how about Lions eye diamond im not entirely sure but i think you can play it, cycle some object and in response sac the lions eye diamond; ill wait for a judgement on that and make the deck with out it, but if im corect it'll save us 3 spots

Heres just a proposed list so take it as you choose

4 Blasted Landscape
2 Bayoo

4 Fluctuator
4 Serums powder
4 Lotus petal
4 Dark ritual
3 Land grant
3 Haunting Misery

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Wild dogs
4 Disciple of Malice
4 Pendrell Drake
4 Drifting Djinn
4 Disciple of Law
4 Disciple of Grace
4 Street wraith

- thats a rough list, a very rough list and as you can see it'll have a problem from drawing too much dead weight, but other than from that it can get a Fluctuator pretty well and has a good chance of going off turn 2 and even turn 1, but since i really didn't test it and its all just theory to me, i'll leave it to your judgement.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Ok, so this deck should fully be named Lance Armstrong.dec, simply because all it does is cycle!!!! :tongue:


On a more serious note, I used to test this deck, and it is AWFUL.

[Dr. Teeth]

VERY constructive comment greg, thanks for your input. (not that mine is any better:wink: )

[Cire]

Okay apparently after asking a judge You can Use LED and Cycling to get a card and 3 mana..

my new list then is

4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
2 Blasted landscape

4 Fluctuator
4 Serums powder
3 Lions eye diamond
3 Haunting Misery

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Wild dogs
4 Disciple of Malice
4 Pendrell Drake
4 Drifting Djinn
4 Disciple of Law
4 Disciple of Grace
4 Street wraith
4 Primoc Escapee

there mulligan and serum powder into a Ancient tomb/City of traitors and Fluctuator then cycle your ass into a LED, play it, sac it, in response cycle everything else, get 3 mana then continue to cycle into a Haunting Misery and win.

- now we just need to test to see if theres room for 4 Force of wills and/or Unmask

[clavio]

You run too many noncycling cards. Is there any reason to run more than one haunting misery? (no). Led is no good here. Overall you made fluctuator slower and didn't fix that whole scooping to one counter problem.

[Cire]

You run too many noncycling cards. Is there any reason to run more than one haunting misery? (no). Led is no good here. Overall you made fluctuator slower and didn't fix that whole scooping to one counter problem.

1) why is Led no good here? you cycle into it, sac it and in response cycle the rest of your cards hands in response, and end up with 3 mana and cards in your hand.

2) i run more than 1 Haunting misery because i run serum powder. there are plenty of times that i remove misery from the game to mulligan into fluctuator

3) i understand i dont run as many cyclers as most builds but slower? i only need 1 land to play fluctuator, 1 land that comes into play untaped, while the other builds need 2 lands that come into play tapped. My build is more consistent getting Fluctuator in hand, but less consistent in terms of fizling; and my build has the possiblity of turn 1/2 wins greator than the original list.

4) But i do agree with you to the scooping to one counter thing, if more room can be found in the deck well need to find space for at least 7-8 discard/counter spells or xantid swarm

[sammiel]

1) why is Led no good here? you cycle into it, sac it and in response cycle the rest of your cards hands in response, and end up with 3 mana and cards in your hand


you have that backwards, you would have to stack all your cycle triggers, and then sac the diamond. still seems pretty bad for flux decks though.

[burkey_boy]

you know how it works

creature cycle 24
4 Pendrell Drake
4 Sandbar Merfolk
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Street wraith
4 Disciple of Grace
4 Disciple of Law


land 17
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 City of Brass
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Polluted Mire

mulligan 4
4 Serum Powder

protect 4
4 Xantid Swarm

kill 11
2 Lotus Petal
3 Songs of the Damned
2 Empty the Catacombs
1 Drain Life
1 Consume Spirit


even with only 24 creatures you can serum powder once or twice... just need multi songs... song into another even with only 14 creatures (losing 10!) wit h2 songs its 28 mana- minus 2 for drainlife and spirit... 48 life point swing...

thinking of putting a living death as an althernative win condition....

[Benie Bederios]

Am I missing something, How in mikes name are you going to get enough creatures in your Graveyard without Fluctuator?

[burkey_boy]

cant believe i forgot to add fluctuator to the list... ill edit whe ni get home

[The Rack]

SO I've looked at the recent lists you all have posted and have ran into the problem of clogging. It really isn't worth running 8 2 mana productant lands if you are going to fizzle more than likely. I stick with the basic list with a little protection (miscalculation). I have tested ythe list extensively, and now with the addition of Street Wraith thte Turn 2 Flux is rising. But the deck will remain casual until more cycling stuff can do other effects and cycle for 2. Here's the list:

// Lands
4 [US] Polluted Mire
4 [US] Remote Isle
4 [US] Blasted Landscape
4 [US] Smoldering Crater
4 [AT] Slippery Karst
4 [AT] Drifting Meadow

// Creatures
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
4 [US] Sandbar Merfolk
4 [US] Pendrell Drake
4 [LE] Keeneye Aven
4 [US] Sandbar Serpent
3 [US] Drifting Djinn
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [US] Fluctuator
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [UL] Miscalculation
1 [WL] Haunting Misery
1 [A] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Lotus Petal
SB: 1 [WL] Haunting Misery
SB: 1 [9E] Consume Spirit
SB: 1 [UD] Rapid Decay
SB: 1 [4E] Dark Ritual
SB: 1 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 1 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [US] Expunge
SB: 1 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [US] Clear
SB: 1 [US] Scrap
SB: 1 [UL] Repopulate
SB: 1 [TO] Overmaster
SB: 1 [IN] Chromatic Sphere

The SB is for color fixing and singletons to use WHILE you have Fluctuator in play. I don't think there is any more discussion to go on about the suicide list so that's it :). Ideas are welcome.

[burkey_boy]

one thing about hte haunting misery version i dont like is that you need at least 19/20 creatures in your yard.
but with the songs of the damned x3 you can go off with significantly less creatures in your yard.

edit: yes using consume spirit/ drain life... haunting misery is countered = gg for you. songs gives you an opportunity to deal more than 20 damage... heck even a healing salve stops the misery deck

[Cabal-kun]

one thing about hte haunting misery version i dont like is that you need at least 19/20 creatures in your yard.
but with the songs of the damned x3 you can go off with significantly less creatures in your yard.

How? Haunting Misery requires 20 creatures in your graveyard to kill an opponent at 20 life. Songs of the Damned give you one black for each creature in your graveyard. Wouldn't you need something like Consume Spirit to use that, and you'd need 22 creatures in the grave. Or am I missing something?

[The Rack]

one thing about hte haunting misery version i dont like is that you need at least 19/20 creatures in your yard.
but with the songs of the damned x3 you can go off with significantly less creatures in your yard.

edit: yes using consume spirit/ drain life... haunting misery is countered = gg for you. songs gives you an opportunity to deal more than 20 damage... heck even a healing salve stops the misery deck

It is true I need 20 creatures in the graveyard but you need to hit 2 consecutive songs whereas I only need a dark ritual and I can hard cast haunting misery where you cannot hardcast consume spirit.

Countering a consume spirit against you after you have played 2 Songs with 11 creatures in the grave it's game against you also. Healing salve doesn't beat this deck because I have 27 creatures in the deck. That's 7 extra damage.

@Cabal-kun - You are correct that You need 20 creatures for Haunting Misery where you would need 22 for the single songs kill.

All in all, I have tested a version which ran Empty the Catacombs with multiple Songs, while it adds consistency, you lose tremendous amounts of speed. It's just not worth it.

Thank you all.

[Cavius The Great]

Damn, who's keeping this thread going?

Anyways, have you guys considered Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox to accelerate your deck, especially to lay down Fluctuator sooner? Or does that dilute the deck too much?

[thefreakaccident]

you are corredt, it does dilute the deck too much. You do not want to cycle into 'dead cards' while going through your deck.... basically once you get flux going you want to win that turn.. that is wh ythere are only 7 noncycling cards in the deck overall.

Jake I think we should make the miscalc. amount up to 4 for more protection that doesn't clog.

is there a discard spel that cycles out for 2?
cuz we would like that!

[Cait_Sith]

Unburden is a discard spell that cycles for 2. Enjoy.

[The Rack]

Damn, who's keeping this thread going?

Me. :p


Anyways, have you guys considered Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox to accelerate your deck, especially to lay down Fluctuator sooner? Or does that dilute the deck too much?

While it adds speed to the first turn win it slows down the deck by clogging up thte cyclers. If only power lands cycled.


Jake I think we should make the miscalc. amount up to 4 for more protection that doesn't clog.

Miscalculations are now up to 4 for some protection.


Unburden is a discard spell that cycles for 2. Enjoy.
While it cycles for :2: it would have been much better if it costed :2: :b:. If only Duress cycled... Thanks for the help though.

[Radley]

how about summoner's pact to reduce the chance of choking in mid combo?

[Cyrus]

Holy necroing...

[Bryant Cook]

Finally, a competitive combo deck.

[emidln]

Dark Ritual AND Street Wraith? Sign me up.

[Ciberon]

Finally, a competitive combo deck.

Lol... This is a deck for the lucky people.