[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

[Volt]

Props to you Volt. The new list looks amazing. Do you have anything as far as a sideboard for it?

Thanks, but I'm really plagiarizing more than innovating. It remains to be seen whether this build is actually better. I think it's stronger in some ways and weaker in others. That said, I'm fairly enthusiastic about this build, and I will be playtesting the hell out of it.

Oh, and here's a suggested sideboard:
3 Disrupt
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Talon Sliver
3 Tormod's Crypt

[xsockmonkeyx]

I see a lack of Worship in those lists. Has it fallen out of favor? If so, why?

[Volt]

I see a lack of Worship in those lists. Has it fallen out of favor? If so, why?

It's hard to fit in everything you might want and still have the deck run smoothly, you know?

The way I see it, there are 3 slots in the following decklist that are open for debate:


18 lands

4 Crystalline
4 Muscle
4 Plated
3 Winged
2 Harmonic

4 StP
4 FoW
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent

The debatable slots are the 2 Harmonic Slivers and Counterspell #3. The question is are there the better things to put in those slots? The most obvious alternatives are: Worship, Talon Sliver, Engineered Explosives. Each has their pros and cons, which I've synopsized below:

Harmonic Sliver
Pros: Disenchant with a body. It's a sliver. Never a dead card.
Cons: Overcosted and fragile on an individual basis. Special ability is useless in some matchups.

Worship
Pros: Improves the Goblins matchup by 10%. Can dramatically reverse a bad board position against aggro.
Cons: Costs 4. Sometimes difficult to get down in the face of mana disruption. Can be disenchanted or bounced. Useless in some matchups.

Talon Sliver
Pros: Generally improves all aggro and aggro-control matchups. It's a sliver.
Cons: Multiples don't stack. Overcosted and fragile on an individual basis.

Engineered Explosives
Pros: Removes Mongeese, Aether Vials, Chalice of the Void. Oftentimes a great topdeck in the mid- to late-game.
Cons: Generally not useful for removing anything above 1cc. Clumsy to use in the first couple turns of the game. Susceptible to Pithing Needle.

Getting back to the original question... Has Worship fallen out of favor? No, not really. I'm just not sure how to weigh the above choices. A good argument can be made for maindecking Worship, and if not maindecking it, at least putting it in the sideboard. Let's just call it an oversight that I didn't include it in the suggested sideboard.

[kabal]

2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath

2 Jotun Grunt
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

2 Worship

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Serum Visions

Grunt has worked out nicely. This deck tends to fill its graveyard quickly via cantrips and cheap counter magic. For me, there are always a few decks that utilize the graveyard.

As for worship, it has worked wonders. One of those cards that says "lets stall out the game until I win".



Oh, and here's a suggested sideboard:
3 Disrupt
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Talon Sliver
3 Tormod's Crypt


I guess you feel that Goblins match up is way in your favor, since your board doesn't have any cards to deal with them? I have a hard time believing that with your lack of Dazes MB.

[Volt]

I guess you feel that Goblins match up is way in your favor, since your board doesn't have any cards to deal with them? I have a hard time believing that with your lack of Dazes MB.

Hmmm... I wonder if 3 Pithing Needle + 3 Talon Sliver are any good against Goblins?

Nobody gets to suggest Worship back at me. I spent pages in this thread lobbying for that card as a maindeck choice and talking about how great it is. However, there are lots of cards we might like to run in this deck, and only so many slots to fit them in. I discussed this exact topic in length in my previous post. Please read it.

[kabal]

Hmmm... I wonder if 3 Pithing Needle + 3 Talon Sliver are any good against Goblins?

Talon Sliver is too fagile to deal with Goblins. I would still prefer to have Blue Elemental Blast and possible Tivadar's Crusade in the board.



Nobody gets to suggest Worship back at me.
Ok then... http://mtgthesource.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I didn't see you comment on Grunt; have you given him a try MB?

[Volt]

Talon Sliver is too fragile to deal with Goblins. I would still prefer to have Blue Elemental Blast and possible Tivadar's Crusade in the board.


Ok then... http://mtgthesource.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I didn't see you comment on Grunt; have you given him a try MB?

Then by all means play BEB or Tiv Crusade. This is why I don't really like including "suggested sideboards" when discussing a decklist. They're so fluid; 10 people can play the same deck, yet each will have a different sideboard.

Regarding Grunts... No, I haven't tried them in the maindeck. However, we just got done discussing maindeck Meddling Mages, and that was a failed experiment. Do you really find the Grunts to be all that effective in this deck? Seems to me that Thresh will plow it every time it hits the table, as soon as it hits the table. I can also imagine it being a "win more" card in other situations. Convince me that it makes the deck better.

Btw, I don't mean to shut down discussion on Worship. I haven't suddenly decided that it sucks. Quite the opposite. However, it's only one of several choices in the category of "cards that I'd like to squeeze into the last couple slots of the deck." Is Worship better than Harmonic Sliver in the long run? What about Talon Sliver? Or some other card? I would like to encourage discussion of this topic.

[Iranon]

Grunt seems to be sideboard material if anything. About the only major disadvantage this deck has compared to Threshold is that it can't ride a single threat to victory but needs to commit a lot to the table.
Maindecking one that's not a Sliver (and doesn't even stick) compounds the problem something horrid.
We also run into the problem of 'the only swords-able creature' again.

[Pinder]

Talon Sliver is too fagile to deal with Goblins.

OMGROTFLMAO! Man, you sure are funn--

Oh wait, you're serious.

Ahem. I suppose that if you pit 1 Talon Sliver alone against Goblins.dec, yeah, it wouldn't last long. But the magic of slivers is that they share. When it's an untargetable 2/2 first striker via a Muscle and a Crystalline (2/2 and 3/3 untargetable first strikers, respectively), then it's more than enough to handle Goblins. Even if they have more creatures than you, they still aren't going to swing because they'll lose Piledriver and other key goblins to your hungry little dudes. Basically, against goblins, Talon + Muscle = I win combat, and Talon + Muscle + Crystalline = I win combat and there aint shit you can do about it.

So yeah, BEB and Tiv's Crusade are good and all, and running them is probably solid, but Talon is more than enough to handle some Goblins.

Just sayin'.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Has Worship fallen out of favor? No, not really. I'm just not sure how to weigh the above choices. A good argument can be made for maindecking Worship, and if not maindecking it, at least putting it in the sideboard. Let's just call it an oversight that I didn't include it in the suggested sideboard.

Ah, I see. I was going to say that if it fell out of the MD then it was still solid side material.

On another note, Im starting to come around to Harmonic Sliver. Disenchant plus a random sliver is often well worth the 3 mana. In matchups where its ability activates twice, its awesome. Against the matchups that it steals (which are often tough matchups otherwise i.e.Stax, A/F Stompy) it is just assinine.

[Pinder]

I still firmly believe that Talon > Harmonic in most matchups, but the deck could honestly run well with either.

[Hanni]

Talon Sliver vs Goblins is a very strong option and is similar to Engineered Plague in that it is virtual card advantage. By this, I mean that it will create card advantage turn after turn, while cards like Pyroclasm and Tivadar's Crusade provide a 1-shot card advantage effect. With Talon Sliver, you can block Goblins over and over and kill them off, decreasing their resources. With Tivadar's Crusade, you blow up all their Goblins once... but cards like Ringleader can allow them to recover. I realize the deck has Stifle, but Talon Sliver is much better vs Goblins than Crusade in my opinion. It adds to the aggro count and it can also be proactive.

I would personally run Talon Sliver maindeck. I realize that untargetable buffed Slivers may be able to handle Goblins but Goblins will be making up a large portion of GP Columbus. The extra tech vs them doesn't hurt. Harmonic Sliver is also a very solid option, since it will lay the beating down on Affinity while removing problematic equipment from FS, AS, etc. and destroy Aether Vials. I would personally run a lone Eladamri's Call and drop the count down on some of the Slivers.

This seems like a strong base:

4 Plated Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

That seems pretty consistent to me, since you have 4 of the Slivers you really want to see and 2 each of the ones that you don't need to see or see multiples of. With the addition of 1 Eladamri's Call, you gain the ability to find either Muscle Sliver or Crystalline Sliver #5 while being able to toolbox the other 2-of Slivers. If there isn't enough room to fit all 3 of the toolbox Slivers as 2-of's, they can be cut down to 1 each with 2 Eladamri's Call and the consistency of the deck would still be fine. I realize that Eladamri's Call may slow down some tempo since it's a GW investment but your not losing card advantage since it goes to hand and you are gaining alot of consistency. The deck is already effecient on tempo because of the low cc curve anyway.

I feel that this deck is a somewhat combo-esque in the way it sets up, in that it wants to see a certain blend of Slivers. Eladamri's Call helps achieve that. You want to see a Crystalline Sliver vs anything with spot removal, you want to have multiple Muscle Slivers and Plated Slivers in play, and you want to see the toolbox Slivers as 1-of's (multiples doesn't hurt though) against certain matchups.

This deck wants to use the tempo countermagic early game to stabalize while it achieves those combo pieces. This deck wants to get to the mid-late game and continue to have control. For that reason, I believe that Counterspell is good in here. I'm not a big fan of it as a 3-of, since its dead early on, but I do think it is good here. I would support a 4/3/2 split of countermagic with 3 Stifle. Stifle is good but this deck lacks synergy within for it (such as using Jotun Grunt), and I don't think I would run 4.

You want cantrip to keep the deck fueled, though I'm not sure the correct #. I think Eladamri's Call can replace cantrip though, and I'd probably run 4/4 Brainstorm/Visions with 2 Eladmri's Call.

I think 4 StP should be sufficient spot removal maindeck with Talon Sliver maindeck.

I don't think this deck needs Meddling Mage maindeck and I also believe that Jotun Grunt is not needed here. Meddling Mage is fine in the sideboard and I think Tormod's Crypt will be stronger than Jotun Grunt. Running non-Slivers in a Sliver deck seems anti-synergistic since the entire basis of the deck is that each of the Sliver abilities pumps every other creature on the table.

I also don't think that Worship is that good here. I realize that Crystalline + Worship can be GG for some decks, but the fact that it requires the deck to have Worship and Crystalline Sliver in play seems a little situational. Beyond that, it also requires the deck to see 4 lands prior. Worship does nothing to Solidarity, Threshold can counter it or answer it post-board, so the major matchup for it (besides random aggro) seems to be Goblins. Goblins will often race you, since you need to see 4 lands, Crystalline Sliver, and Worship and you need to play Crystalline Sliver and Worship first. It seems to me like it just pulls you into the danger of cool plays... and this deck is already combo-esque enough as it is. Personally, I wouldn't run Worship at all.

[Volt]

Thanks for the awesome input, Hanni. I love the comparison of Talon Sliver to Engineered Plague. That's very astute.

I like the simplicity and uncluttered feeling of my current, Talon-less deck. However, it cannot be denied that Talon Sliver is great against Goblins. Maybe a toolbox approach is the way to go.

Perhaps a Stifle could be cut. I think I actually want to stick with 3 Counterspells, though.

Much to think about.

[Aggro_zombies]

Thanks for the awesome input, Hanni. I love the comparison of Talon Sliver to Engineered Plague. That's very astute.

I like the simplicity and uncluttered feeling of my current, Talon-less deck. However, it cannot be denied that Talon Sliver is great against Goblins. Maybe a toolbox approach is the way to go.

Perhaps a Stifle could be cut. I think I actually want to stick with 3 Counterspells, though.

Much to think about.
One question - or beef, if you will - I have with regards to Counterspell is that fact that, well, it isn't free. Sure, it says "Just say no to target card," but it requires you to leave UU open at all times to be useful. And in a deck like this, which seems to be fairly aggressive, I would rather play a man than leave UU open on the offchance that my opponent might do something devastating. I could see the logic of maindecked Counterspell in a primarily combo meta, but in a less defined environment I'd rather run Daze or more guys. That said, has this been a problem for you?

[Volt]

One question - or beef, if you will - I have with regards to Counterspell is that fact that, well, it isn't free. Sure, it says "Just say no to target card," but it requires you to leave UU open at all times to be useful. And in a deck like this, which seems to be fairly aggressive, I would rather play a man than leave UU open on the offchance that my opponent might do something devastating. I could see the logic of maindecked Counterspell in a primarily combo meta, but in a less defined environment I'd rather run Daze or more guys. That said, has this been a problem for you?

True, the counterspells can be clunky at times. They will force you to make some tough decisions at certain points in the game. Do I cast this sliver in my hand, or do I keep counter mana open? It comes down to evaluating the board position and understanding the matchup. What is my opponent playing? How much mana does he have? What is he likely to cast on his next turn? It's a skill-intensive card, and unlike Daze, Counterspell gets better and better as the game goes on. I used to be against Counterspells in this deck, but I've come around to liking them.

As I've said before, I ditched the Dazes in my build a long time ago, and I'm never going back. I always hated having useless Dazes in my hand after the first couple of turns. Also, this deck isn't quite so happy about bouncing land #1 back to its hand as Thresh is. CounterSliver really wants to get 3 lands on the board without interruption. Thresh is perfectly content to play a land, drop a Mongoose, and then bounce that land back to its hand to pay for a Daze. We don't have that luxury. We want to get Crystalline Sliver on the board as fast as possible. I honestly think dropping the Dazes is one of the better design decisions that I've made. Btw, one of the reasons I like Harmonic Sliver so much is because it allows me to "clean up" a lot of that crap that I previously would have relied on Daze to hopefully keep off the board. i.e. Aether Vial, Chalice, Survival, Pernicious Deed, etc.

[Volt]

I just finished a playtesting session of 30 "left versus right" games. "Left" was CounterSliver, and "Right" was mono-red Goblins. The CounterSliver build used was my latest build (i.e. no Talons or Worships). The Goblins build is very similar to Coppola's build, except no fetchlands, and one Tinkerer was swapped out for an additional SGC. For reference, here are the decklists:

Vial Goblins
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
14 Mountain

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

CounterSliver
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell


Before disclosing the results, let me make the following disclaimers. I tried my best to make the "correct" play each turn for each hand, without considering the specific contents of the other hand, and let the results fall as they may. However, it is impossible to rule out personal bias, as I admit I was "rooting" for the slivers on some level. Also, each opening hand was played as if knowing what deck the opponent was playing, and mulliganed appropriately. Obviously, in a tournament, you won't always know what your opponent is playing. Finally, all games were played without sideboard. These results are for "first games" only.

Okay, now for the results:

CounterSliver
Games Won: 21
Record when going 1st: 12-3
Record when going 2nd: 9-6

Goblins
Games Won: 9
Record when going 1st: 6-9
Record when going 2nd: 3-12

I think these results are somewhat skewed, as it seemed like CounterSliver generally got pretty good draws during that 30-game span. Still, it's hard to attribute such lopsided results totally to chance. I feel completely comfortable in saying that CounterSliver is favored at least 60-40 against Goblins, even without the benefit of maindeck Talon Slivers and/or Worship.

[kabal]

I just finished a playtesting session of 24 "left versus right" games. "Left" was CounterSliver, and "Right" was mono-red Goblins. The CounterSliver build used was my latest build (i.e. no Talons or Worships). The Goblins build is very similar to Coppola's build, except no fetchlands, and one Tinkerer was swapped out for an additional SGC. For reference, here are the decklists:

CounterSliver
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell


Few questions/comments. In terms of your manabase, seems that you may want to go:

-2 Polluted Delta
+2 Windswept Heath

Give you a few more ways to fetch your plains singleton.

How have 4 stifles worked out for you? During your play testing you mentioned, did you ever have them sitting in your hand wishing you had a counter? Especially since the Goblins build you tested did not have any fetches, most Goblins builds typically run 6-8 fetch lands. Maybe you can go into a little more deepth on some of your matches.

I did see your post regarding counterspell Vs. Daze. Seems to me that and combination of Daze and Counterspell might be better. Seems like you have tough time playing the aggro and control role and the same time. Where Daze would help immensely.

Maybe the counter spells could look like:

3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Counterspell

I believe you mentioned this before, maybe at the TMD, but you don't care for Eladamri's Call. Have you tested it out? Definitely allow you to play more of a toolbox approach. Where you could MB Talon Sliver and Winged Sliver at the same time.

[Volt]

Few questions/comments. In terms of your manabase, seems that you may want to go:

-2 Polluted Delta
+2 Windswept Heath

Give you a few more ways to fetch your plains singleton.


Been there, tried that. I found that it's almost always more important to be able to fetch a basic island than a basic plains.



How have 4 stifles worked out for you? During your play testing you mentioned, did you ever have them sitting in your hand wishing you had a counter? Especially since the Goblins build you tested did not have any fetches, most Goblins builds typically run 6-8 fetch lands. Maybe you can go into a little more deepth on some of your matches.


The Stifles are particularly amazing in the Goblins MU. I was always happy to have Stifles in my hand. I wish I could run more. They're used primarily to stop Wastelands, Ringleaders, and Matrons, which are hugely advantageous things for you to stop. Fetchlands are also a juicy target, if your opponent is running them. Stifles are actually better than hard counters in many instances. A Counterspell won't stop a vialled out Ringleader from triggering. Nor will it keep your only green source from getting Wasted.

EDIT:
I didn't really take notes on the individual games. However, I can give some general tips for how to play the matchup:

1. In your opening hand, you want 2-3 lands, a cantrip, and some combination of Crystalline, Plated, and Muscle Slivers. You can keep an opening hand with just 1 land and a cantrip or two, but it could get dicey. One land with no cantrips will lose. A handful of lands and counterspells and cantrips - but no slivers - will lose. Mulliganing correctly is very important.

2. Play Plated Sliver first turn if you can. Play Crystalline Sliver 2nd turn if you can.

3. Turn 4 for Goblins is a big turn (unless they've missed land drops). Keep mana open for a Stifle or Counterspell if you can. Try to prevent them from Fact-or-Fictioning you with Ringleader!



I did see your post regarding counterspell Vs. Daze. Seems to me that and combination of Daze and Counterspell might be better. Seems like you have tough time playing the aggro and control role and the same time. Where Daze would help immensely.

Maybe the counter spells could look like:

3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Counterspell


I ran a build with Dazes for a long while. Obviously, they can be pretty good in the first couple of turns, if your opponent is foolish enough to blunder into them. They're generally not very good after that, and they're a downright terrible topdeck. Overall, I just don't like them in this deck, and I'm very glad I took them out. The deck is better off without them, for reasons I've already explained.




I believe you mentioned this before, maybe at the TMD, but you don't care for Eladamri's Call. Have you tested it out? Definitely allow you to play more of a toolbox approach. Where you could MB Talon Sliver and Winged Sliver at the same time.

Yes, I've tested it. I even liked it. Mav & Pinder never cared for it much, but I always thought running a lone EC was a reasonable choice. Ultimately, though, I decided the better route to go was to add a few more cantrips and streamline the creature base.

I don't feel there is room in the deck for Winged, Talon, and Harmonic Slivers. Between the three, the most important one is Winged. After that, it's up for debate. Not to belabor the point, but I prefer Harmonic Sliver for the added versatility, but I wouldn't blame anyone for running Talons instead.

[Pinder]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything Volt said. I'm still not completely sold on Counterspell in the main, but we need another counter, and it certainly holds better than Daze in the long run. If only Spell Snare said 'two or less'! Then I'm pretty sure it would be an auto include. But alas, until they print some better counterspell (and don't say Daze), we're stuck with the classics.

EDIT: Oh, and @ Eladamri's Call: Well, maybe, if you can find some way to make up for the tempo loss. The only Sliver I would run as a singleton is Harmonic, though. Talon and especially Winged are too important to not have more than 1. Maybe a 3/2/1 split?

[Hanni]

A 3/2/1 split of toolbox Slivers seems appropriate, although I'd probably run a 2/2/1 split. I'd probably sideboard 1-2 Harmonics as well.

This is probably what I would do:

U/W/g Slivers

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (17)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eladamri's Call

I'm not going to outline a sideboard, although cards like Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives seem appropriate.


Oh, and @ Eladamri's Call: Well, maybe, if you can find some way to make up for the tempo loss

Well, I don't really see what the problem is. Cantrip, in itself, is a tempo loss. Your paying mana to give yourself better card quality. Eladamri's Call is a cantrip, it replaces itself. The difference is that, instead of fixing your hand slightly, you directly tutor up one of your Slivers. The Sliver creature base is combo-ish, since you want a blend of Slivers. Eladamri's Call is a 2cc cantrip rather than a 1cc cantrip but it tutors up the Sliver you need at the right time. It doesn't seem like a huge tempo loss, especially not later on. I'd actually cut a land to fit in a 2nd Eladamri's Call but I presented the list above because I felt it would be more acceptable than a 17 land version.

Daze is extremely potent and very important for gaining dominance in the early game against just about every deck... so you can play that turn 1 Plated turn 2 Crystalline and still answer that turn 2 Werebear or whatever.

Well, that's my take on it at least.

[xsockmonkeyx]

The Stifles are particularly amazing in the Goblins MU. I was always happy to have Stifles in my hand. I wish I could run more. They're used primarily to stop Wastelands, Ringleaders, and Matrons, which are hugely advantageous things for you to stop. Fetchlands are also a juicy target, if your opponent is running them. Stifles are actually better than hard counters in many instances. A Counterspell won't stop a vialled out Ringleader from triggering. Nor will it keep your only green source from getting Wasted.

Dont forget that Stifle gives you more outs against a first turn lackey. Often you will drop a sliver on you second turn so an opening hand of Stifle + Crystal Sliver is keepable against Goblins.

[kabal]

EDIT: Oh, and @ Eladamri's Call: Well, maybe, if you can find some way to make up for the tempo loss. The only Sliver I would run as a singleton is Harmonic, though. Talon and especially Winged are too important to not have more than 1. Maybe a 3/2/1 split?

I'm not sure it is a problem, it generates exactly the same effect as a cantrip except the quality is better. I was thinking something on the lines of a 2/2 with 2 Eladamri's Call.

2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath

4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
2 Eladamri's Call
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Serum Visions

Back to the Daze topic, I'm just confused on your decision to exclude Daze. Sure, late game it can be a total dud. Early on it is so useful, extremely more than Counterspell. I even can't count the times where I've had a Daze and definitely would not want to have a CounterSpell in Threshold or CounterSliver. Vice visa is a lot smaller.

[Volt]

Back to the Daze topic, I'm just confused on your decision to exclude Daze. Sure, late game it can be a total dud. Early on it is so useful, extremely more than Counterspell. I even can't count the times where I've had a Daze and definitely would not want to have a CounterSpell in Threshold or CounterSliver. Vice visa is a lot smaller.

I just don't like Dazes in this deck. Good players will play around them, and they get worse and worse as the game goes on. I hate having useless cards in my hand.

Countersliver is a bit more robust than Thresh. It does not mind going to the late game against most decks, and has the tools to ensure that it gets there. Outside of the first few turns, Counterspell is much better than Daze. This deck does not usually lose to a spell that your opponent resolves in the first couple of turns, particularly if you run Harmonic Sliver, which allows you to clean up a lot of problems. I keep making that last point, but I'm not sure it's getting through.


Regarding Hanni's suggestions... If I were going to go with the toolbox approach, I would take my latest list and make the following changes:

-1 Counterspell
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Portent

+2 Talon Sliver
+1 Eladamri’s Call

Seems solid. Might even be an improvement. The nice thing about running a singleton EC is that you typically don’t draw it until later in the game, when it’s usually a great topdeck. You don’t generally want it in your opening hand, but it’s not the worst thing ever if that happens.

[AngryTroll]

One weakness this deck has is mass removal spells like Wrath. Daze does not stop a Wrath effect if the opponent even suspects that you have it. Force of Will and Counterspell force them to have a counter to back up their removal.

I am a big fan of the mainboarded Harmonic Slivers, because I absolutely hate losing games I should win because I do not have an answer to Worship, or Solitary Confinement, or even something like Isochron Sceptor. Again, it cleans up things that have slipped through the cracks in the early game and are now preventing you from winning the late game.

I would run the full four Stifles and no Dazes, but most people tend to assume he is playing Daze because of the similarity of the deck to Thresh, and older versions did run Daze. Stifle is always great, even if the opponent knows you have them.

I played against Volt Friday night, and knew he had Stifles, and still got three fetchlands Stifled. Daze can be played around, but sometimes Stifle cannot be.

[Hanni]

Back to the Daze topic, I'm just confused on your decision to exclude Daze. Sure, late game it can be a total dud. Early on it is so useful, extremely more than Counterspell. I even can't count the times where I've had a Daze and definitely would not want to have a CounterSpell in Threshold or CounterSliver. Vice visa is a lot smaller.

I agree. Also keep in mind that it can be useful even later on, if the opponent taps out completely to play something big (like hardcast Exalted Angel or etc). Also keep in mind that if your going to play FoW, your going to need stuff to pitch to it anyway. Also keep in mind that it can be cantripped away later on when it is no longer useful to you. Daze provides the amazing early game countermagic while Counterspell does that for you later on. 3/2 Daze/Counterspell is better than 3 Counterspell, in my opinion.

I'd just like to say that I think Daze is even more necessary here than in Threshold, as well as less cantrip. Threshold only needs to drop 1 or two guys while they can invest the rest of their mana on cantrip or leave UU open for Counterspell. In Slivers, you have a higher threat density. You will be spending most of your mana resources early on to establish a creature base, where Counterspell will be useless. Daze is vital here. Slivers can get away with a lower amount of cantrips... and you don't need to fill the graveyard quickly anyway. However, you will want to be able to Daze early Sinkholes and such while your committing all of your mana sources to dropping Slivers.

[Volt]

I agree. Also keep in mind that it can be useful even later on, if the opponent taps out completely to play something big (like hardcast Exalted Angel or etc). Also keep in mind that if your going to play FoW, your going to need stuff to pitch to it anyway. Also keep in mind that it can be cantripped away later on when it is no longer useful to you. Daze provides the amazing early game countermagic while Counterspell does that for you later on. 3/2 Daze/Counterspell is better than 3 Counterspell, in my opinion.

I'd just like to say that I think Daze is even more necessary here than in Threshold, as well as less cantrip. Threshold only needs to drop 1 or two guys while they can invest the rest of their mana on cantrip or leave UU open for Counterspell. In Slivers, you have a higher threat density. You will be spending most of your mana resources early on to establish a creature base, where Counterspell will be useless. Daze is vital here. It also allows you to get away with a lower amount of cantrips... and you don't need to fill the graveyard quickly anyway.

I'm not going to rehash my previous arguments regarding Daze. I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.

As far as the cantrips... I feel that 8 is okay, but 9 or 10 is better. It's not about filling up the graveyard, and I wish that point would not be raised again. It's about finding what I need, be it a sliver, a land, a Stifle, a Force of Will, or whatever.

I am strongly considering the Eladamri's Call/Toolbox suggestions, but I'm not going back to Dazes and 8 Cantrips. I already know we can build a solid CounterSliver deck with those things. I'm looking to tweak the deck into something that is more consistent and powerful.

[Hanni]

When I was referring to not needing lots of cantrip, I realize it fuels the deck. I was trying to point out that instead of running alot of cantrip like Thresh, you could run the 8 of Brainstorm/Visions and then toss in 2 Eladamri's Call and be fine. It's really up to you though, I'm just providing my opinion since you asked me to do so. That's another reason I strongly recommend Daze... I'm not trying to convince you about what is good and what is bad, etc, I'm just giving my 2 cents.

[Volt]

When I was referring to not needing lots of cantrip, I realize it fuels the deck. I was trying to point out that instead of running alot of cantrip like Thresh, you could run the 8 of Brainstorm/Visions and then toss in 2 Eladamri's Call and be fine. It's really up to you though, I'm just providing my opinion since you asked me to do so. That's another reason I strongly recommend Daze... I'm not trying to convince you about what is good and what is bad, etc, I'm just giving my 2 cents.

Oh, I know. I hope there's no hard feelings. There certainly aren't any coming from my corner. I do value your opinion and appreciate your input. You've convinced me to reconsider a few things. Just not the Dazes. :cool:

[Pinder]

I'm not sure it is a problem, it generates exactly the same effect as a cantrip except the quality is better.

Except that all of our cantripping only costs 1 mana. If Call costed G (or W) and didn't suck as much as Worldly Tutor, it would be tons better. I suppose the extra mana investment could be written off as the cost of quality, though. I could see them replacing Portent in the list Volt posted before.

[kabal]

Except that all of our cantripping only costs 1 mana. If Call costed G (or W) and didn't suck as much as Worldly Tutor, it would be tons better. I suppose the extra mana investment could be written off as the cost of quality, though. I could see them replacing Portent in the list Volt posted before.

Worldly Tutor
Search your library for a creature card and reveal that card. Shuffle your library, then put the revealed card back on top of it.

Eladamri's Call
Search your library for a creature card, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.

Call is strictly better in the deck we are talking about.

[Volt]

Except that all of our cantripping only costs 1 mana. If Call costed G (or W) and didn't suck as much as Worldly Tutor, it would be tons better. I suppose the extra mana investment could be written off as the cost of quality, though. I could see them replacing Portent in the list Volt posted before.

I would recommend replacing one of the Portents with an Eladamri's Call. I wish we could decide this issue and move on. We keep coming back to EC, over and over. Let me rehash the arguments:

1) I think running one EC is ideal. It's Crystalline Sliver #5 in the early game, or Winged Sliver #4 in the late game. I don't like running more than one, because you pretty much never want to draw more than one in the course of a game, and you can't pitch extras to a Force of Will.

2) Pinder doesn't particularly care for EC because it's a bit of a tempo sink, and he usually would rather just have another sliver in his hand than an EC. However, he also feels that if you're going to run it, you should run at least two, because one is just random.

I think about sums it up. Please let me know if I've misrepresented your stance, Pinder.

[Iranon]

Call is wonderful as a singleton, or possibly a 2-of; you don't want to ever see more than 1 in a game.
It's also nice to have have 2-3 ways of getting a Harmonic Sliver (which is crucial in several match-ups and wins games you have no business of winning) while running 3+ Harmonic Slivers would compromise your threat quality in matches where they aren't needed.

I love Hanni's list for an open to combo-oriented metagame; elegant and flexible. Personally, I would run 2 Dazes at most though, because when run in small numbers it will often read 'Return an island to your hand: coerce target opponent into making horrible misplays'.

[Hanni]

I love Hanni's list for an open to combo-oriented metagame

My list wasn't meant for a combo-oriented metagame, I was simply saying that the creature base of Slivers feels combo-ish since it wants to see several different Slivers to function at its optimum. My list is just how I would build the deck and my deckbuilding style is to try and make all matchups as good as possible, since I try to build decks with large event metagames in mind (like GP Columbus).

[Maverick676]

My list is just how I would build the deck and my deckbuilding style is to try and make all matchups as good as possible, since I try to build decks with large event metagames in mind (like GP Columbus).

I think this might be the wrong approach for a big event. Making all of our matchups as good as possible tends to make every matchup a little worse than it could be. I think it would be a better idea to focus on our best matchup, goblins, and deal with things like thresh and iggy in the SB. To this end I would put talon and worship back in the main, and not maindeck things like harmonic sliver and eladamri's call. I suggest mainly preparing for goblins in the maindeck since it is likely to be the most popular deck there.

[Hanni]

Well, I always consider the Tier 1 with any deck. Goblins is generally the most popular of the Tier 1, and thus I try to keep that in mind too. That's why I suggested putting 2 Talon Sliver back into the maindeck. 3 might be better but I think that 2 MD with 1 Eladamri's Call MD would be sufficient for game 1... you should be able to play enough tempo advantage (via FoW, Stifle, Daze, etc) to allow you to get to the point of the game where the lone 1-of on Eladamri's Call doesn't seem like it's going to hurt at all, even against Goblins. However, I have not playtested the build I just presented at all, so I'm not really in a position to say that this would be the best approach against Goblins. Just keep in mind that you don't want to sacrifice too much against the rest of your matchups to make 1 matchup the best it can be. Goblins will be popular but if you're playing 12+ rounds of Swiss, your not going to be playing against 12 Goblin decks, more than likely you'll play 5 at the most (and that may be an overstatement). Thus, you'll want to be prepared for Thresh and fast combo, as well as other Tier 2 randomness like FS, AS, and B/r Sui. This is not to say that one can be fully prepared against everything... but you want to reduce the amount of unfavorability as much as possible... if you can keep at least a 50/50 against most of the field (which blue-based aggro/control has the potential for), then you will be in great shape.

[Pinder]

Worldly Tutor
Search your library for a creature card and reveal that card. Shuffle your library, then put the revealed card back on top of it.

Eladamri's Call
Search your library for a creature card, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.

Call is strictly better in the deck we are talking about.

Ah, I believe you misunderstood me a tad. I realize that Call is strictly better than Worldly Tutor for this deck. What I was saying there was that if it costed G (or W) and was still strictly better, then it would be alright for this deck. Basically what this deck needs is a creature tutor that costs as much as Wordly Tutor, but puts it in your hand like Call. Since that doesn't exist, we're a little SOL for right now.


And Volt, you pretty much have my stance pegged. But as for now, I give up. Run a singleton Call if you want, you have my blessing :tongue:.

And as for our matchups, I'd rather go 100% against half of them and lose the rest, than go 50/50 with each of them. Especially if the half we're winning has goblins in it. I'd rather have a few great matchups and a few bad matchups than a lot of mediocre matchups.

[Volt]

And Volt, you pretty much have my stance pegged. But as for now, I give up. Run a singleton Call if you want, you have my blessing :tongue:.

Thank you, massah. :wink:


And as for our matchups, I'd rather go 100% against half of them and lose the rest, than go 50/50 with each of them. Especially if the half we're winning has goblins in it. I'd rather have a few great matchups and a few bad matchups than a lot of mediocre matchups.

Well, I think the matchup with Goblins is still quite favorable using my latest list. But I understand where you're coming from.

[Pinder]

Well, I think the matchup with Goblins is still quite favorable using my latest list. But I understand where you're coming from.

Oh yeah, I wasn't doubting our Goblins matchup. I was just saying that we probably shouldn't worry too much about improving our Elf/Staff matchup or whatever. As long as we've got Thresh, Gobs, and Solidarity handled, then I think cleaning up most of the lower Tier shouldn't be much of a problem

[willhale]

I would just like to say that these guys have been testing this deck for some time. I know I have been there for most of it. I have helped them test it and it is a solid deck. Granted all decks have weeknesses. Some times it can be some randome ass card or deck that no one would even think of. I have tested my black discard/control deck with it and it gives it problems and may even win a game, but it always comes back to kick my ass. I made a few deck changes to my deck (kept it stright black) thanks to xsockmonkeyx and Galroth I have been able to win at our meta game but I still cant beat Meathooks. Keep it up guys! :cool:

[Pinder]

Thanks, JJ.

Here's the list I threw together last night for some testing. It could probably use a bit of tweaking, but overall I found it pretty resilient:

//Land (18)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures (17)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

//Spells (25)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
1 Portent
1 Eladamri's Call


So far the singleton Call hasn't been all that bad, as it's Harmonic when I need to clean up Jitte et al, and not entirely useless when I don't. Still slow, though. 9 Cantrips probably isn't as good as 10, but it seemed okay. More on this list later.

EDIT: So, with Planar Chaos rumor season starting up and all, I figured I'd peruse MTGS to see what they've uncovered so far, right? Well, if you haven't been here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=54790), you might want to check it out. There's some pretty kewl stuff in there. One thing in particular caught my (and will probably catch your) interest:



The following rumors are now partly confirmed (see partial spoiler):
...
- a cycle of slivers that give off-color abilities (green gives haste, black gives first strike, red gives sac: draw a card).
...


A green sliver that gives haste? Sign me the fuck up. If white (or possibly blue) ends up with some sort of direct damage, I will quite honestly shit my pants with sheer joy.

[Maverick676]

Now if only they'd errata meddling mage to be a sliver wizard.

[willhale]

Now if only they'd errata meddling mage to be a sliver wizard.

what would the art look like with it being a sliver? :confused:

[xsockmonkeyx]

A green sliver that gives haste? Sign me the fuck up. If white (or possibly blue) ends up with some sort of direct damage, I will quite honestly shit my pants with sheer joy.

How about a blue Muscle Sliver? Mmmmm...blue muscle sliver.*drools*:tongue:

EDIT: OMG, appearantly the new muscle sliver is white! (http://www.magiccorporation.com/gathering-news-994-exclu-nouvelles-cartes-chaos-planaire.html)!!!#!#!ZOMGZesIMONFIRE!!#!!!

[Finn]

Yup. It seems pretty clear that there is a new white Muscle Sliver. In fact, all the hitherto green abilities are going white in Planar Chaos.

It's the theme:

Green becomes white (like Ligament Sliver, heh not Muscle but Ligament and also Drop of Honey)
Black is going Blue (Funeral Charm so far)
Blue is going Red (think of a Man-O-War Goblin "Goblin o' War" - name)
Red is now Green with a combination Scryb Sprite-Lava Spike called Uktabi Drake
White cards are Black beginning with Black's version of a Circle of Protection

But I see evidence of other color craziness as well.

[Eldariel]

Yup. It seems pretty clear that there is a new white Muscle Sliver. In fact, all the hitherto green abilities are going white in Planar Chaos.

It's the theme:

Green becomes white (like Ligament Sliver, heh not Muscle but Ligament and also Drop of Honey)
Black is going Blue (Funeral Charm so far)
Blue is going Red (think of a Man-O-War Goblin "Goblin o' War" - name)
Red is now Green with a combination Scryb Sprite-Lava Spike called Uktabi Drake
White cards are Black beginning with Black's version of a Circle of Protection

But I see evidence of other color craziness as well.

It's not systematic. Blue also has a discard-spell, but the idea is chaos, which means, every colour gets every colour's ability. The green 2/1 Hasty Flying Drake for G with echo of GG1, it's a combination of blue and red. The blue discard-spell has blue and black elements. Then there are just plain crazy effects. Crovax is white, etc. But that's not here, nor now.

[Blair Phoenix]

How about a blue Muscle Sliver? Mmmmm...blue muscle sliver.*drools*:tongue:

EDIT: OMG, appearantly the new muscle sliver is white! (http://www.magiccorporation.com/gathering-news-994-exclu-nouvelles-cartes-chaos-planaire.html)!!!#!#!ZOMGZesIMONFIRE!!#!!!

...*salivates*...

Okay for some actual discussion, With a white Muscle sliver now, how important is Harmonic sliver and Eladamri's Call? On one hand, Harmonic sliver is really good, but with the ability to take green out altogether, the mana base could be cleaned up tremendously

[imran]

Either you drop Green and clean up the manabase or you can think about adding another third color (like black or red) to get your other Matchups better.

Alsso, what do you think about the white Drop of Honey? It could help against random decks and is also not too bad against Gobbos, especially, if you have a Crystalline Sliver out. The only problem Creature left, should be Nimble Moongoose, but that should be pretty handleable with Crystalline, the new Muscle Sliver and Talon.

[Eldariel]

Am I the only one interested in running 8 Muscle Slivers? It is the most powerful Slivar evar, after all.

[Volt]

...*salivates*...

Okay for some actual discussion, With a white Muscle sliver now, how important is Harmonic sliver and Eladamri's Call? On one hand, Harmonic sliver is really good, but with the ability to take green out altogether, the mana base could be cleaned up tremendously


I was just thinking about that. There are a few routes we can go.

1) Keep the UGW mana base, and play with 8 "Muscle" Slivers. Obviously, something would have to be cut.

2) Remove green from the deck altogether, sticking with just UW. Obviously, we would replace the Muscles with Ligaments, and the Harmonics & EC with... something.

3) Remove green from the mana base, and replace it with black. Replace the Muscles with Ligaments. Replace the Harmonics & EC with Duresses. Spend a lot of time arguing about whether Hibernation Sliver and/or Dark Confidant belongs in the deck.

[Blair Phoenix]

Am I the only one interested in running 8 Muscle Slivers? It is the most powerful Slivar evar, after all.

8 Muscle slivers are definately awesome, but I'm not sure it's right for this deck which is much more control than aggro.

[Kadaj]

Admittedly I haven't done a lot of testing with this deck but I don't think screwing around with the mana-base is the way to go. In fact, I think playing with eight muscle slivers would actually make this deck a hell of a lot better against just about everything.

I could be horribly wrong, but I think it merits testing.

[Blair Phoenix]

I was just thinking about that. There are a few routes we can go.

1) Keep the UGW mana base, and play with 8 "Muscle" Slivers. Obviously, something would have to be cut.

2) Remove green from the deck altogether, sticking with just UW. Obviously, we would replace the Muscles with Ligaments, and the Harmonics & EC with... something.

3) Remove green from the mana base, and replace it with black. Replace the Muscles with Ligaments. Replace the Harmonics & EC with Duresses. Spend a lot of time arguing about whether Hibernation Sliver and/or Dark Confidant belongs in the deck.
I see choice 3 = about a good 10 pages of debate on just those choices lol. Not to mention the 10 pages of debate deciding on choice 1,2, or 3 lmao. Again, though, I think choice 1 lends itself more to an aggro version of slivers, which this deck is not.

[imran]

We could also just kick out the talons and add instead the Ligaments, this should definitely tested. Don't stress the Manabase, jsut try it out, cause Talon has exact the same Mana Cost as Ligament.

What do you think?

[Volt]

Right now, I think I like the idea of running 8 Muscle Slivers. Here is the first of many new deck lists that will be posted:

[Decklist deleted]

It will be interesting to see what other slivers are being released. They may rock our world with another kick-ass sliver!


EDIT: The more I think about it, the more appealing a UW build is. It would definitely make the mana base more stable.

[Pinder]

How about a blue Muscle Sliver? Mmmmm...blue muscle sliver.*drools*:tongue:

EDIT: OMG, appearantly the new muscle sliver is white! (http://www.magiccorporation.com/gathering-news-994-exclu-nouvelles-cartes-chaos-planaire.html)!!!#!#!ZOMGZesIMONFIRE!!#!!!

Hey, remember that pants shitting I was talking about? Just happened. Twice.

I'm not sure that 'OMG run 8 Musle!!!!1111eleventyone!' is the best idea here, but it certainly is the most obvious one, and has merit enough to warrant testing. Honestly though, I think that just kicking out Muscle Sliver (option 2, I think?) is the best option. By replacing Muscle with Ligament, we can slim the mana base down to just UW. We'd lose Harmonic and Call, but I've never been huge proponents of those. And our mana base sans 4 Trops would become much more stable all around.

The black splash sans Muscle could be interesting as well. I mean, face it, Hibernation Sliver is good. The only reason I've been against it for so long is that the mana base can't handle four colors, and we couldn't drop green. Now that we can drop green, paying 4 life to get back Crystalline and Ligament in response to WoG could be some good. Bob's out though. We've established that non-Sliver creatures have a very short lifespan.

I definitely think that we should test all of these ideas, though, because each one of them sounds appealing. I'm just hoping for the Sliver Ringleader, though. Wizards, if you're reading:



Something McSomebody Sliver
2U

Whenever a slivercomes into play, reveal the top X cards of your library, where X is the number of Slivers you control. Put a Sliver from among them into you hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

2/2


That's not too good, right? They could print that...maybe?
Oh yeah, and I just shit my pants again :tongue:

[Volt]

Sheesh, I sure hope you're wearing Huggies, Pinder!

Okay, the idea of ditching green altogether and just going with UW is really, really growing on me. I would kind of miss the Harmonic Slivers, but I'm probably alone on that. And we can perhaps make up for it by putting Dazes back in, to help keep Aether Vials and Chalices and other problems from hitting the board. Here's what I have in mind at present:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Island
2 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Ligament Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
3 Stifle

4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand


I think this build would be an improvement over the current UWg build if for no other reason than it has a much more stable mana base.

The next question is, how much would be gained by splashing a third color such as black or red?

[asi]

With an added amount of Slivers, Aether Vial might have become a consideration again.

Also, there now seem to be two alternatives; a more controllish U/W-version and an aggroish U/G/W-version. The latter maybe shouldn't be dismissed so early; I think I heard rumors that a green Heart Sliver could come in Planar Chaos.

edit: Actually, haste is nice with Gemhide Sliver. Maybe there will be several different Sliver-versions after PC-release!

[Pinder]

Sheesh, I sure hope you're wearing Huggies, Pinder!


Nope. I prefer Luvs, they're breezier :tongue:.



The next question is, how much would be gained by splashing a third color such as black or red?

Given the rumors that the red sliver gives slivers 'sac: draw a card', I think the choice is obvious there. Sliver about to die? Oh well, draw a card. Opponent cast WoG? Too bad, just gonna have to draw five cards. Also, splashing red would give us access to Bolt, Lightning Helix, and everyone's favorite draw smoother, Magma Jet. We'd also get access to a few decent slivers from before to toy around with, like Hunter Sliver and Heart Sliver, and possibly new ones like Two-Headed Sliver. I'm especially curious about the interaction between provoke and Two-Headed Sliver.

Star Spangled Sliver Stompy, anyone?



With an added amount of Slivers, Aether Vial might have become a consideration again.


If this deck starts leaning towards aggro more, Aether Vial would definitely be a consideration.

[Solpugid]

Given the rumors that the red sliver gives slivers 'sac: draw a card', I think the choice is obvious there. Sliver about to die? Oh well, draw a card. Opponent cast WoG? Too bad, just gonna have to draw five cards.

It will probably be a red version of mnemonic sliver, which required you to pay 2 mana to draw that card. Not terrible, but certainly not stellar in this deck. Besides, running the original would be plain better (pitches to FoW).

[Hanni]

Wouldn't another Muscle Sliver be better than Talon Sliver...? I mean, yea, turning your 2/2's into first-strikers is nice against Goblins, but wouldn't having 3/3's and 4/4's be overall better? I like the idea of stabalizing the manabase but for the same 2cc cost, I think Muscle Sliver is far superior, on all levels, to Talon Sliver.

The again, UWr or UWb Slivers sounds very appealing to me as well.

I guess it's really a matter of what else they release.

[Pinder]

It will probably be a red version of mnemonic sliver, which required you to pay 2 mana to draw that card. Not terrible, but certainly not stellar in this deck. Besides, running the original would be plain better (pitches to FoW).

The fact that you're probably right makes me sad.

I can only cling to the tiny glimmer of hope that the sac effect is free. Live on, little hope, live on.....

And as far as Ligament replacing Talon, why not both? I mean, 2/2 first strikers are good against Goblins, but 4/4 first strikers are even better. Against everything.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Also, there now seem to be two alternatives; a more controllish U/W-version and an aggroish U/G/W-version. The latter maybe shouldn't be dismissed so early; I think I heard rumors that a green Heart Sliver could come in Planar Chaos.

edit: Actually, haste is nice with Gemhide Sliver. Maybe there will be several different Sliver-versions after PC-release!

Yay, Im reviving my aggro sliver build now that it may be playable now with up to 8 muscles out there.

Vial Slivar

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
4 Tundra
1 Islands
2 Plains

4 Aether Vial

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Ligament Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver

3 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver/Haste Sliver

4 Plated Sliver
3 Sidewinder Sliver


4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Eladamri's Call

4 Swords to Plowshares



The again, UWr or UWb Slivers sounds very appealing to me as well.

I guess it's really a matter of what else they release.

:/ Hmmm. What becomes of this thread now that the deck is probably going to change?

[kicks_422]

Hi everyone... I haven't posted here for a long time... :tongue:

I've been playing with this deck and following the discussions here, but with the advent of the new slivers in PC, here's some thoughts:

1. Green is viewed as the worst color in Legacy. The only reason we run it is because of Muscle Sliver, and Harmonic/EC to a lesser extent. I say we drop it.

2. Straight U/W would really smooth out the manabase, but I feel it would leave the deck a bit lacking. A color to replace green is probably the best way to go......

3. But what color? I think Black is a good choice, for Hibernation Sliver (the best reason for splashing black - avoids sweepers, which is the deck's biggest liability). Duress is good, but we already have a good combo MU. Engineered Plague might not be needed.

4. If we go to Red, Heart Sliver is a nice addition, as well as the new sac:draw a card sliver (which I think is the best reason to go red, given that it doesn't cost 4 or something). Pyroclasm is a solid addition as well, and if we put that in the SB, we're resembling the RWU Fish builds that run both Pyro and Mage.

5. If we go aggro as sockmonkey has proposed in the above decklist, we're not making any match-ups better. We're actually making a lot of these match-ups worse... Unless they release a Sliver Lackey, Sliver Ringleader, Sliver Matron, and Sliver-Gang Commander.

[AngryTroll]

Volt and I talked about the list tonight at the tournament, and I would be inclined to go with a list like his up earlier on this page.

Until we know more about what slivers the other colors will get, it is a little pointless to try to put together three color lists. However, I enjoy drooling over what cool things we might get too. However, even if we only got Ligament Sliver out of the set, I think the deck will get a huge boost.

First, the simple publicity the deck will get should be huge. One thing that seems to be hurting the deck is its relative scarcity. Ligament Sliver might get some people playing with the deck.

Second, we get all the perks of three colors (except Harmonic...I'll come back to that) with only two. Our manabase will be, what, a bunch of basics, 5-6 fetchlands, and 3-4 dual lands? Rock Solid...That alone should add some percent to the Goblins match.

Third, cutting a color really doesn't change the match percentages against Solidarity or Gro. In fact, it might even boost the Gro numbers if Talon Slivers go back in. Picking up percent against Goblins and Gro is certainly not a bad thing. I have not tested the Solidarity matchup (not many competent Solidarity players out here...plenty of Tendrils, but those are much easier to beat), but it might even pick up a few points where we aren't having color problems. Not enough to make any real difference, but every little bit helps.

Losing Harmonic will probably hurt, and there are a couple of things to do about that. You can always run Disenchants in the board, or it might be possible to very lightly splash green, running only two Trops and a two Harmonic Slivers. I don't know...you have Daze to help pick up the slack against pesky artifacts and enchantments. I am leaning towards siding in a few Disenchants and keeping the great manabase.

Cards like Anarchy will hurt that much more now, but seriously, if an Anarchy resolves at all, you are in serious trouble.

I am really looking forward to the prerelease now, and to the cards we will see in the next couple of weeks. Come on, Wizards of the Coast! Lets see what other presents we have waiting under the tree.

[Pinder]

Losing Harmonic will probably hurt, and there are a couple of things to do about that. You can always run Disenchants in the board, or it might be possible to very lightly splash green, running only two Trops and a two Harmonic Slivers. I don't know...you have Daze to help pick up the slack against pesky artifacts and enchantments. I am leaning towards siding in a few Disenchants and keeping the great manabase.


Actually, Mav and I were discussing the very same sort of thing during our tourney last night. My suggestion was that, if we ditch Call and Harmonic from the list I posted earlier, we could fill them in with 2 Chain of Vapor. Since every permanent we have is untargetable, Chain here is just a 1 mana answer to everything pesky that resolves in the early turns before we have enough mana to start countering things. It would fill much the same role as Harmonic (albeit not being a sliver). Sure, it's only bounce, but if we get rid of their Jitte when we have counter backup, we can keep it from hitting the table a second time. And postboard, we can bring in more specific hate a la Disenchant and the like. We used to run Chain, but took them out in favor of better things. But now that we have some possible open slots, I think they could go right back in.

And really, is there anything more fun than Chaining an Aether Vial in response to its third counter? I contend that there is not.

[kicks_422]

Why not just take another page out of Thresh and run Pithing Needles MD? Almost everything that needs to be Harmonic'd can very well be Needle'd (Jitte, Vial, Deed, etc.

[Aggro_zombies]

Actually, Mav and I were discussing the very same sort of thing during our tourney last night. My suggestion was that, if we ditch Call and Harmonic from the list I posted earlier, we could fill them in with 2 Chain of Vapor. Since every permanent we have is untargetable, Chain here is just a 1 mana answer to everything pesky that resolves in the early turns before we have enough mana to start countering things. It would fill much the same role as Harmonic (albeit not being a sliver). Sure, it's only bounce, but if we get rid of their Jitte when we have counter backup, we can keep it from hitting the table a second time. And postboard, we can bring in more specific hate a la Disenchant and the like. We used to run Chain, but took them out in favor of better things. But now that we have some possible open slots, I think they could go right back in.

And really, is there anything more fun than Chaining an Aether Vial in response to its third counter? I contend that there is not.
I'm not so sure about this. Harmonic Sliver dodges Chalice at one and two, both of which would kill this deck. And a lot more decks run Chalice these days than you might think, especially the Stompy varients. Successfully dealing with Chalice would require having a Force or Daze in your opening hand. Disenchant doesn't solve this problem effectively because they will almost certainly drop a Chalice for two first, and if they see you're running Chain of Vapor, they'll probably switch to dropping Chalice at one and then Chalice at two. The likelihood of two Chalices is low, I'll admit, but a quick Chalice at two puts the brakes on this deck so hard it isn't funny.

Just something to think about.

[kicks_422]

How about Engineered Explosives, then?... EE set at 1 or 2 would solve a lot of problems, though you'd have to choose between running Needles or EE.

[xsockmonkeyx]

5. If we go aggro as sockmonkey has proposed in the above decklist, we're not making any match-ups better. We're actually making a lot of these match-ups worse... Unless they release a Sliver Lackey, Sliver Ringleader, Sliver Matron, and Sliver-Gang Commander.

This is true. Even with 8 muscles in the deck it still isnt that great. It rolls over to combo but is improved over random aggro. Personally, I think the trade off sucks. :. Countersliver>Aggro Sliver.

The next thing to do is get a decent U/W list going. Im with Troll, I think that it might be a waste of time to make a 3 color list without seeing the rest of the new set.

EDIT: Im gonna start with this:

Countersliver 3.0

Lands - 17
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
3 Plains
3 Island

Hooks - 17
4 Plated
4 Tendon
4 Crystal
3 Winged
2 Talon

Counter
4 FoW
2 Counterspell
4 Stifle
2 Daze

Remove
4 Plow
2 Disenchant

Cantrip
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

[Pinder]

How about Engineered Explosives, then?... EE set at 1 or 2 would solve a lot of problems, though you'd have to choose between running Needles or EE.

With the move to 2 colors, I'm not sure EE is quite as viable of an option anymore. It would get rid of Chalice nicely, sure, but since setting it at 2 would murder us, we could only ever set it at 0 or 1. And rather than spending 2 mana activating an EE for 0, you could always just spend 2 mana playing Powder Keg and activating it for free for much the same effect, no? That, and it can eventually get above 2 counters, which in the long run coud make it more versatile than EE in a 2 color build. Add to that the fact that it kills artifact lands (a major boon in the Affinity matchup), and I think that at this point I'd run Keg over EE.

Maindeck Needles sound like they might be nice, though :wink:

@xsockmonkeyx's list: I'm not sure about maindeck disenchant, and I would up the counterspell count to 4 (honeslty, they're that handy), but the rest of the list looks solid. If I straight switched my list to UW, it would look something like this:

//Land (18)
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Island
3 Plains

//Creatures (17)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Tendon/Ligament/White Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver

//Spells (25)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
2 Chain of Vapor/Pithing Needle/Something Else/etc...

[Volt]

A straight UW build would be very solid. I also like the idea of UW with just a light green splash for 2 Harmonics + 2 Muscle Slivers (in addition to the 4 Tendon Slivers). I don't think there's room for a full set of 8 pump slivers, but 6 should fit nicely. The Talon Slivers would get cut. As Hanni said, Muscle Sliver > Talon Sliver.

I'm going to refrain from posting any more deck lists until the full spoiler is out.

[Pinder]

The Talon Slivers would get cut. As Hanni said, Muscle Sliver > Talon Sliver.

I would argue differently. Sure, Muscle is more instrumental, but hardly a replacement for Talon. I would contend that they are best when used together. If we are splashing green again (something that doesn't appeal to me for some reason), then a 3/3 split between Muscle/Ligament (or maybe 2/4 depending on much we cut green for white) could possibly work. I'm still advocating strictly UW, however. It's just as strong as the deck is now, and with a stabler mana base. I'm not sure that simply having more Muscle Slivers would make the deck any stronger than it already is, and if that's the case, then UW would just be better.

And it probably is best to not post actual decklists until the set is released (or at least until we get later into the rumor season).

[Volt]

I would argue differently. Sure, Muscle is more instrumental, but hardly a replacement for Talon. I would contend that they are best when used together. If we are splashing green again (something that doesn't appeal to me for some reason), then a 3/3 split between Muscle/Ligament (or maybe 2/4 depending on much we cut green for white) could possibly work. I'm still advocating strictly UW, however. It's just as strong as the deck is now, and with a stabler mana base. I'm not sure that simply having more Muscle Slivers would make the deck any stronger than it already is, and if that's the case, then UW would just be better.


Well, I've been playtesting a UW build against Goblins quite a bit in the last couple of days. The upside is that the mana-base is definitely more stable. You are almost invulnerable to Wastelands. Rishadan Ports don't hurt as much, either, since it's harder for them to color-screw you. The downside is that you have no answer for Aether Vial if it hits the board, unless you are maindecking Disenchants or Pithing Needles. On balance, I found the matchup to be about the same as before.

I found that I really missed the maindeck Harmonic Slivers. I think it might be a good idea to go back to splashing green, except a little more lightly than before. As I said, you could squeeze in 2 Harmonics + 2 Muscles. I'm sorry, but 6 Muscles > 4 Muscles + 2 Talons. Be honest. How many games have you had where you were like "Aargh! If I could just draw a Muscle Sliver, I would dominate!" A lot, I would wager. We could get away with having just 2-3 Tropical Islands, and no basic Forest, and the mana-base would be more stable than before, albeit not quite as stable as the UW mana-base. And, again, those Harmonics are better than you think.

Just food for thought. There's a lot of play-testing and deck-building to be done. I haven't even tried UWB Slivers, yet.

Btw, it appears the new white muscle sliver is called Sinew Sliver.

[Pinder]

I'll concede that having more than 4 Muscle Slivers isn't a bad thing, but there are plenty of games where I've thought 'man, if I could just get a Talon Sliver I could break through these guys!'. I'll give you the fact that 6 Muscle > 4 Muscle, but not that 6 Muscle > 4 Muscle + 2 Talon. But maybe that's just because I love Talon so much.

So the Orb of Insight is up, and 'Sliver' hits 24 times. Assuming the obligatory 3 mentions of the word 'sliver' on each Sliver (name,creature type, and ability), looks like we have 8 new Slivers to play around with.

EDIT: Actually, it's only 2 times, the third one is the word 'slivers', not 'sliver'. So we have 12 new Slivers to play with.

And how about that black Wrath? Great, as if we needed to worry about Wrath coming out of another color (especially the color with Engineered Plague)...:rolleyes:

[Hanni]

When would Talon Sliver possibly be better than Muscle Sliver? Against Ball Lightning maybe? Against Goblin Piledriver probably. Other than that, simply making your 3/3 into a 4/4 to block and kill Mongoose rather than give him first strike is just simply better.

So Talon Sliver is helpful against any creature that has a much higher amount of power than toughness (like Ball Lightning 6/1 or Piledriver 12/2 or something). How situational is that? Most creatures follow closely with p/t, like 3/3, 3/4, 2/1, etc... in which case simply making your creature another 1/1 larger is just going to be better... your going to still kill the creature and survive but your going to have larger guys that dodge burn better when Crystalline isn't in play and your going to have a faster clock against Solidarity. Muscle Slivers > Talon Sliver in far more scenarios.

[Pinder]

Hmmmm...okay, so I'll concede that Muscle > Talon in a wider variety of situations. I'd still like to have Talon for those situations where it's not, though. Piledriver especially. I don't want to have to trade with it. We could always run both (if we stay 3 color, we could even drop Talon to a 1-of and just scare him up with Call when we need first strike or something).

EDIT: The thing that I like best about first strike is that you can stack block to kill something big. Let's say that your opponent has a 4/4, and you have 2 2/2 slivers. Now, if you played a Sinew/Muscle Sliver, then you would have 2 3/3's. You can still stack block and kill their dude, sure, but you'll lose one of your slivers. Now, if you played a Talon there, you'd have 2 2/2 first strikers which could stack block their creature and leave your slivers intact.

That isn't the only example, but it serves to show that first strike can be at least as useful as +1/+1 in a variety of situations.

Honestly, if we keep the list 3 color, I'd probably cut Plated for Sinew before Talon, because Sinew does effetively the same job as Plated in the deck, but better. It's not a 1 drop, though, which is an argument for keeping Plated in alongside Sinew, I suppose.

EDIT FOR COOLNESS: So the Planar Chaos minsite is up, and we have some pretty new sliver art (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/planarchaos/creative1_1zishvr0zxnq52p8.jpg) to gawk at. Judging from the Pyrexian mask in the art, could we be looking at some sort of 'Yawgmoth's Sliver'?

Oh, and it appears that there's a red Morphling (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/planarchaos/creative1_owq5rt6hkz2p66aw.jpg). Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[nightmaster]

I would like to know if anyone has played this deck in a tournament. I know the deck looks good on paper and but does it actually perform well against other competitive decks. I would like to know this because the deck looks like an interesting deck to build.

[Pinder]

Um, yeah. I take this deck to a weekly tourney I help run all the time, and Mav has taken it to the same tourney multiple times as well. Our meta is a little weird, but the results are good there. I know Volt has taken it to more than a few tournaments in his area as well, and is planning on taking it to GP Columbus. Either way though, just proxy the deck up (or build it on MWS) and see how you like it for yourself.

Oh, and we have another pretty sliver to look at (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/planarchaos/PLCBooster2.jpg). Perhaps the green haste sliver we've heard rumor of?

EDIT: I like Volt's idea of adopting new Sliver art for an avatar....perhaps Sinew for Mav?

[Iranon]

Roughly speaking it plays like Thresh with a much better late game and no graveyard reliance.

The major drawback is that you can't ride a single threat to victory so it's worse against heavy board control decks; if those are absent from your meta it should be a solid choice.

[Pinder]

Roughly speaking it plays like Thresh with a much better late game and no graveyard reliance.

The major drawback is that you can't ride a single threat to victory so it's worse against heavy board control decks; if those are absent from your meta it should be a solid choice.

To put it succinctly, yeah, what he said. If you see a lot of WoG (or our new buddy Damnation) in your meta, this may not be the best choice, because you need roughly 3 creatures on the board to seal the deal. Basically non-targeted mass removal is bad for us.

[Kirika]

I was thinking a little bit about the different options.

1 staying with UWg sounds good but what would you cut besides maybe plated but that would hurt against lacky defense to add white muscle slivers. 4 crystalline and 4 musscle are a no brainer and you want 3 winged to draw one. I can see cutting down to 2 winged and maybe 1 plated to throw in two of the new white muscles but what else. the 2 harmonics really help against problem artifacts since I no longer run daze although i might go back to daze it tends to underperform besides going first in the first few turns. I run vendalken shackles might cut those for the other 2 white muscles I guess.

2. going UW for consistency. Dunno about this one green or black give you so much but consistency is good. lose green which gives another muscle sliver, harmonic and compost. harmonic i guess you can board in disenchants, engineered explosives, serenity, needles instead but if your playing against mono black control or black white discard / ld compost is the bomb. black of course has engineered plague the goblins killer and duress.


3. going UWb. Engineered Plague really does a number on goblins if you can cast it. Also duress really helps in the combo match up. Issues are that the board space becomes really really tight. I don't think confidants are that good. With no life gain and the possiblity to flip a 5 mana force of will or 4 mana worships off the top its just a bit dangerous. Also its not a sliver and does not get sliver bonuses and it tends to get hit by removal really fast since if you have crystalline down your slivers can't. I don't like hibernation for the same reason, no lifegain and damage is fast and furious these days not like years ago extended.

I'm tempted to go with UWb because it plays alot like my fish deck and has the same options which is what i been playing in legacy for a while.

[Volt]

When testing out new CounterSliver builds, the first and foremost deck that I do my playtesting against is Goblins, since that matchup is perhaps the biggest selling point of CounterSliver.

After finding out about Sinew Sliver, I threw together a UW build that looked like this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Islands
2 Plains

4 Crystalline
4 Sinew
4 Plated
3 Winged
2 Talon

4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

After playtesting 20 or so games against Goblins, here's what I found:
1. The mana-base was much more stable. It was very nice to be able to play basic lands and not worry about getting color-screwed.
2. I missed Harmonic Slivers. One or two resolved Aether Vials will often wreck you.

Overall the matchup was somewhat positive, but not all that amazing for CounterSliver. I was hoping for better, so I decided to go back to a UWg build, except with an even lighter green splash than before. Here it is:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Islands
2 Plains

4 Crystalline
4 Sinew
2 Muscle
4 Plated
3 Winged
2 Harmonic Sliver

4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell

You'll note the presence of 2 Muscle Slivers (in addition to the 4 Sinew). Also, the Harmonics are back in. These are the only 4 green spells in the deck, so 3 Trops are perfectly fine as the only green sources in the deck. This mana-base has the advantage of being more stable than the old UWg build, albeit not quite as rock-solid as the UW build. Also, the extra couple of muscular slivers really improve the consistency of the deck. After all, after Crystalline, which sliver do you generally want to get into play? Muscle/Sinew of course. That holds true for pretty much every conceivable matchup.

I playtested a good 50(!) games against Goblins with this build. I was impressed. This build PWNZ Goblins, winning a solid 2 out of 3 games before sideboarding.

[Pinder]

After all, after Crystalline, which sliver do you generally want to get into play? Muscle/Sinew of course. That holds true for pretty much every conceivable matchup.


I've conceded after some more testing that yes, in general Sinew is preferable to Talon sliver. Talon Sliver was nice and all, but now that we have Sinew, the purpose that first strike served has sort of been rendered irrelevant. Our guys are just bigger now. I'll still admit that Talons are great in the Goblins matchup, but then again...



I playtested a good 50(!) games against Goblins with this build. I was impressed. This build PWNZ Goblins, winning a solid 2 out of 3 games before sideboarding.

...we pwn Goblins anyway :wink:.

[Maverick676]

What do you guys think of running 7 muscle slivers (4 tendon, 3 muscle) and only running 2 winged sliver since you really shouldn't need flying as much if all your guys are 4/5's and 5/6's.

[sammiel]

because if you already have that many slivers on the board, you should be winning the game. Winged Sliver is infinitely more relevant when you only have a couple slivers out, which is a more precarious position.

[Pinder]

What do you guys think of running 7 muscle slivers (4 tendon, 3 muscle) and only running 2 winged sliver since you really shouldn't need flying as much if all your guys are 4/5's and 5/6's.


because if you already have that many slivers on the board, you should be winning the game. Winged Sliver is infinitely more relevant when you only have a couple slivers out, which is a more precarious position.

While not for exactly the right reasons, sammiel is right here. It's not enough to have bigger guys than theirs, your bigger guys have to be able to get through. having 3 Winged means they will consistently do this.

Actually, because evasion is so important, I've been testing 1 MD Shifting Sliver (wtf, I know), and it's not actually that bad. With Call to grab it if I need to, it essentially does the same thing as Mystic Enforcer in UWg Thresh to break creature standstills. I know you're saying 'but Winged Sliver does that!'. It does most of the time, but the idea came to me when I was playtesting against Mav and I had an army of Slivers (2 Muscle,1 Crystalline, 1 Winged, 1 Harmonic, 1 Plated), and he had 4 Serra Avengers to hide behind, as well as a Finkel equipped with Jitte. I dealt with the Jitte, but he still killed me because I couldn't swing into his angels without losing a) Crystalline Sliver, opening up the 3 StPs that were sitting in his hand, b) a Muscle Sliver or 2, making his guys larger than mine, or c)Winged Sliver, which would get rid of the only reason he wasn't swinging for 12 each turn with 4 Avengers. So the game stalled, except that he was drawing 2 cards per turn and dealing me a damage.

I realize that this game was sort of atypical, but the reasoning stands. Sometimes 'unblockable' is just better than 'flying'.

EDIT: On the same sort of vein as Mav's thinking, though, what about a 3/3 split between Muscle/Sinew rather than 4/2? It would help us dodge Mage a lot better, and I doubt it would push our green commitment too high.

[CrunchBite]

I realize that this game was sort of atypical, but the reasoning stands. Sometimes 'unblockable' is just better than 'flying'.

I agree with your reasoning but why not use Shadow Sliver instead? It's a bit smaller, but the cost is more inline with the rest of the deck and it does basically the same thing in most cases.

BTW awesome deck guys. I'm just getting back into MTG after a couple year hiatus and it's nice to see one of my old favorite decks getting some serious attention. Hope to run it this week at the local tourny.

[Togit460]

Shadow sliver denies you blocking, not good....The problem is that it forces you into an alpha strike every turn, which isn't a good thing, wherease winged sliver gives you options, regardless, I only think 2 winged sliver is correct... Congrats on you getting back into legacy magic, and for being interested in an awesome deck.

[CrunchBite]

Shadow sliver denies you blocking, not good....

Aha, gotcha, knew i missed something. Wups....

[Pinder]

Another argument for 3 Winged Sliver is that they make great Force of Will food. Oftentimes if you're stuck pitching a sliver to FoW, it's nice to have a winged, because multiple winged are useless anyway. And if you pitch one, heck, you have two more. Shifting Sliver would accomplish much the same effect in the matchups where it isn't very useful.

Just a thought.

[imran]

In my opinion Shifting Sliver is one of the strongest choices for this deck.
What about running a 2/1 Split of Winged Sliver and Shifting Sliver?
This would allow you to avoid having the Shifting Sliver in your opening hand.

The unblockability allows you alpha strikes, where your guys would not get normally through the defences of the opponent.

Jut to pick up Pinder's example:
2 Muscle,1 Crystalline, 1 Winged, 1 Harmonic, 1 Plated

Muscle Sliver 3/4
Muscle Sliver 3/4
Crystalline Sliver 4/5
Winged Sliver 3/4
Harmonic Sliver 3/4
Plated Sliver 3/4

What would have happened, if you would draw a Shifting Sliver with 19 power on the table? The opponent has to counter it.
The Shifting Sliver is a late game bomb, which ends the game quickly, if not countered or destroyed.

[BoardinCharlie]

I see that you have been debating the solid U/W build, has anyone seen the New Sinew Sliver?

1W

1/1

All slivers get +1/+1 isn't that the same thing a muscle sliver does? Or does this deck NEED green for the Harmonic?

[Pinder]

I see that you have been debating the solid U/W build, has anyone seen the New Sinew Sliver?

1W

1/1

All slivers get +1/+1 isn't that the same thing a muscle sliver does? Or does this deck NEED green for the Harmonic?

:rolleyes: Yeah, we've seen it. It's the whole reason we were debating the UW build in the first place. Please take the time to read at least the last couple of pages before you post something we've been discussing for a while.

And yes, it turns out that keeping the green splash (although a light one) is a good idea, as Harmonic can clean up messes that would otherwise lose you the game. Messes named Jitte.

[Volt]

I see that you have been debating the solid U/W build, has anyone seen the New Sinew Sliver?


EDIT: sarcastic remark deleted

Yes, we know about Sinew Sliver. It's an auto-include.

To synopsize recent discussion:

1. Sinew Sliver makes UW slivers a solid option. The mana-base is almost bullet-proof.

2. UWg remains a strong option as well, allowing you to run 6+ buff slivers, as well as Harmonic Slivers (which are in fact pretty darn handy).

3. UWb hasn't really been tested yet, but seems like it would be a very strong option, too. Hibernation Sliver would offer additional protection from Wrath effects, as well as allowing other trickeration.




And yes, it turns out that keeping the green splash (although a light one) is a good idea, as Harmonic can clean up messes that would otherwise lose you the game. Messes named Jitte.

And Aether Vial! I think people underestimate how good Harmonic Sliver is in the Goblins matchup, for the simple reason that it gets rid of that stupid artifact. Then, in a pinch, you can throw it in front of a Piledriver.

[Pinder]

3. UWb hasn't really been tested yet, but seems like it would be a very strong option, too. Hibernation Sliver would offer additional protection from Wrath effects, as well as allowing other trickeration.


I will admit that bouncing a sliver to my hand as emergency FoW food does sound like it would be fun, but until there are more selling points for Hibernation Sliver, I'm still not so sure about how awesome it is. Maybe I'm missing something?

[Goblin Snowman]

I will admit that bouncing a sliver to my hand as emergency FoW food does sound like it would be fun, but until there are more selling points for Hibernation Sliver, I'm still not so sure about how awesome it is. Maybe I'm missing something?

Being able to have effectively more than 4 Crystalline Silvers? It's not as good, but it allows you to trade with every Goblins creature early and keep your guys hanging around. Also, allows for mass blocking without and card disadvantage against a Mystic Enforcer or something, or letting you swing into one without fear.

[CrunchBite]

Hibernation Sliver, although useful, seems like a suboptimal solution to wrath. We already have 8 hard counters and if wrath is a real problem there are other (non-sliver) solutions in blue, white and green. Wrath isn't even that common of card in Legacy (at least not in my meta). I don't necessarily think black is a bad splash since there are other benefits as well, nor do we know what's in PC, but Hibernation Sliver isn't a great reason on its own to do it especially since it means giving up muscle 5-8 and harmonic.

[etrigan]

1. Sinew Sliver makes UW slivers a solid option. The mana-base is almost bullet-proof.

2. UWg remains a strong option as well, allowing you to run 6+ buff slivers, as well as Harmonic Slivers (which are in fact pretty darn handy).

3. UWb hasn't really been tested yet, but seems like it would be a very strong option, too. Hibernation Sliver would offer additional protection from Wrath effects, as well as allowing other trickeration.


Has maindeck Pithing Needle been tested? It doesn't seem like Green is offering much that White isn't, namely +1/+1 slivers and disenchant effects. Running Pithing Needle main lets you deal with a lot of troublesome cards, like Jitte and Vial and Survival, while still randomly shutting down stuff like Psychatog and fetchlands.

There's too much overlap between UW and UWg, all at the cost of a weakened mana base. I, personally, would prefer UWb or UWr, so at least I get to play with Duress or Lightning Bolt or something, rather than more Disenchant effects

[Volt]

A few observations:

1. Goblin decks are trending towards running maindeck removal for Pithing Needle.

2. In my experience, Pithing Needle is pretty fragile when playing against Survival decks.

3. Harmonic Sliver kills Chalice of the Void, which will always be set at 1 or 2.

4. Harmonic Sliver, while suboptimal in some matchups, is never a dead card. It's a sliver.

5. Muscular slivers are sexy.

[Togit460]

I'd say that hibernation sliver deserves to be a sideboard card. I can't really find many reasons that justify it's inclusion against goblins, or any other aggro decks for that matter. But avoiding wrath of god effects is something this deck has craved, as well as some interesting tricks to allow heavy abuse of harmonic sliver in stax-style matchups or just avoiding the occasional spot removal that crystalline isn't out for. I do think it should be tested with serious integrity as a x3-4 sideboard card though.

[Lego]

I'd say that hibernation sliver deserves to be a sideboard card. I can't really find many reasons that justify it's inclusion against goblins, or any other aggro decks for that matter. But avoiding wrath of god effects is something this deck has craved, as well as some interesting tricks to allow heavy abuse of harmonic sliver in stax-style matchups or just avoiding the occasional spot removal that crystalline isn't out for. I do think it should be tested with serious integrity as a x3-4 sideboard card though.

You're advocating running UWgb... I'm not sure that's justifiable. Hibernation sliver isn't that good.

[Pinder]

I'd have to agree with the Army Man here. UWg or UWb maybe, but I'm incrediby wary of 4 colors for this deck, even if two of them are just splash colors. The mana base is shaky enough as is, I don't think we could support 4 colors.

[Togit460]

i'm not so sure about 4-color either, but i'm saying that this deck was GOOD as long as it had access to a "muscle sliver." Which it can now have without splashing green. This free's up another color choice to splash into. So I guess the best way to go about this is take an analysis of the different "playable" sliver's offered in each color and also the advantages of keeping it to 2 colors.

U/W/B: has access to better goblin hate such as engineered plague post-board as well it splash-hating against the mirror just for giggles. The sliver that makes this look attractive is Hibernation sliver, I can't really see any other one that should be included.

U/W/G: another 3-4 muscle slivers as well as some interesting possibilities in the sideboard. Oh and the harmonic sliver looks tasty...

U/W: A lot less vulnerable to disruption from many different cards, but if we're still playing x4 stifle in the build it's more to the goblin players detriment to pop a wasteland only to lose a land (1 mana land destruction is teh nuts!) We do need to fill some slots, but it does leave nice openings for different slivers, and may end up as the strongest version to run with.

U/W/R: While not well hyped for lack of an insane sliver in this color, it has a lot of potential cards mainly for sideboard hate, and since even with U/W we now can fill all the sliver spots minus harmonic sliver which leaves room for some other interesting choices. I personally view harmonic sliver as a heavy metagame card for the more random metagame, since it doesn't do a lot in my testing vs. threshold or solidarity and can't do much more than hit the occasional vial against goblins. Which leads me to believe it should be better used as a sideboard option (a very tasty one at that though.)

That's just my thoughts though, let me know what you think... mucho <3 for pinder/volt/maverick!

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Some Questions:

Have anyone testet the new UW version of the deck?
What was the result?
Could the UW version support colerless lands like Wasteland?

[Cait_Sith]

There is a serious rumor going around of a cycle of enemy color slivers, so if they are good UGW would probably be the best.

[CrunchBite]

There is a serious rumor going around of a cycle of enemy color slivers, so if they are good UGW would probably be the best.

There's 12 slivers total in PC and only one is known so it's hard to draw any conclusions. There are 5 enemy color cc's in the orb so it's very possible. Of course, any 3 color combination will involve at one enemy color combo (and at least one friendly), so you can't really say UGW is better just because there's enemy color slivers. We'll just have to wait and see.


Some Questions:

Have anyone testet the new UW version of the deck?
What was the result?
Could the UW version support colerless lands like Wasteland?

Read a page or so back, it's been explored with fairly positive results, but it's not clear if it's better then having access to muscle slivers 5-8 and harmonic. Gotta wait for more PC info....

The deck could probably support colorless lands but not in place of colored lands. The deck has a high color requirement (for something full of 2cc spells anyway) and already runs a minimal amount of lands. Might be worth trying out though.

[Cait_Sith]

There's 12 slivers total in PC and only one is known so it's hard to draw any conclusions. There are 5 enemy color cc's in the orb so it's very possible. Of course, any 3 color combination will involve at one enemy color combo (and at least one friendly), so you can't really say UGW is better just because there's enemy color slivers. We'll just have to wait and see.

Peeps were joking Jungle Sliver, but I doubt that hehe. The idea here is UGW already is the best build so the additional of strong white slivers as well as UG slivers could easily improve the matchup.

[goldenj]

This thread needs to be restarted, probably as two. UW and UWG. It feels like a lot of the issues brought up in pages 1-12 are either resolved or irrelevant now.

In my limited monkeying around, UWG feels more aggro and seems to have a better goblins matchup. (Though my build differs from here with harmonic, victual and gemhide.)

The UW feels better vs. control (such as it is) and combo. It's better at running stifle for the storm matchup. (The big advantage of stifle vs pithing needle). Sinew is definitely what makes this viable.

Has anybody managed to fit pulmonic or firewake sliver into their builds? Am I the only fool to try?

Sinew sliver made me wonder about a BRW deck -- especially with the enemy color sliver rumors promising more goodies. The loss of crystalline is big -- but not as huge as when people ran more targeted elimination. You get sledge, sinew, duress, bolt and swords.

[Bargoth]

Sinew sliver made me wonder about a BRW deck -- especially with the enemy color sliver rumors promising more goodies. The loss of crystalline is big -- but not as huge as when people ran more targeted elimination. You get sledge, sinew, duress, bolt and swords.

I dont think the Sliver base available to B/R is quality enough to warrent playing that combination. Both those colors seemed to get Slivers who's ablities had activation costs or were just not that incredible. The exceptions being Acidic Sliver, Heart Sliver, Sedge Sliver... the rest seem subpar. Even if one was to add White into the mix for Plated and Sinew, it would still leave you spread strongly across three colors. Gaining Haste, Regeneration and a bit of reach from Acidic, in exchange for Untargetablility, Artifact/Enchantment hate in Sliver form, and reach from Winged Sliver.

Additionally I think the loss of Crystalline is larger then you're giving it credit. Most all decks are packing some targeted removal. And in Slivers more so then just about any other agro control, the ability to select and remove even just one piece can completely break the Slivers player's board position. Atleast in my expierience in playing the deck, there are generally a couple expendable creatures on the board (Plated/Talon/Harmonic) and then Crystalline and Muscle... removing Crystalline from the deck leaves most all removal gunning for the only creature making the rest remotely threatening, the +1/+1 sliver. Not to mention cutting blue would leave your reactive protective elements gone.

All that being said I think U/W/g (for Harmonics and 6 'Muscle' Slivers) appears to give the strongest creature base for any Sliver deck. Though depending on the amount of land destruction/disruption in your meta, the U/W build may end up making up for playing a slightly weaker Sliver base by having a rock solid mana base.

[Pinder]

This thread needs to be restarted, probably as two. UW and UWG. It feels like a lot of the issues brought up in pages 1-12 are either resolved or irrelevant now.


Yeah, most of the discussion in anything but the last few pages is irrelevant now. If someone wanted to start a thread about just UW Slivers (Sliverfish?), I wouldn't really care as I think we're staying UWg here.



In my limited monkeying around, UWG feels more aggro and seems to have a better goblins matchup. (Though my build differs from here with harmonic, victual and gemhide.)


Well, we run Harmonic already, and Victual Sliver I could see (Mav has suggested it a couple of times as a board option vs. Burn), but Gemhide Sliver strikes me as a bit useless in this deck.



The UW feels better vs. control (such as it is) and combo. It's better at running stifle for the storm matchup. (The big advantage of stifle vs pithing needle). Sinew is definitely what makes this viable.


I think that the UW version would basically be control, rather than Aggro-Control.



Has anybody managed to fit pulmonic or firewake sliver into their builds? Am I the only fool to try?


Um, yes, I do believe so. If we were going to run Firewake Sliver we would just run Heart Sliver, as he's cheaper and you can't target your own slivers with the pump ability anyway, which makes Firewake < Heart.

And as for Pulmonic, the ability is great. If only it didn't give creatures flying (we have Winged for that), then it might not cost a whopping 5 mana. This deck has trouble hitting even its 4th land drop consistently. Things that cost 5 are essentially out of the question.



Sinew sliver made me wonder about a BRW deck -- especially with the enemy color sliver rumors promising more goodies. The loss of crystalline is big -- but not as huge as when people ran more targeted elimination. You get sledge, sinew, duress, bolt and swords.

The loss of Crystalline in this case is too big. When your opponent's targeted removal not only kills something but also gives all of your creatures -1/-1 (because really, what else will they aim for?), that isn't good. The only halfway viable sliver aggro I could see popping up is RGW, running the full 8 Muscle/Sinew for super redundancy against removal. You also get the wonder that is Spined Sliver+Sidewinder Sliver. And Bolt and Helix and Swords. Durahan and I built a RGW list a while back just for kicks (before we ever knew about Sinew) and it was actually pretty good. The only problem was that targeted removal hurt us bad.

So yeah, Crystalline (or some sort of way to protect your slivers from removal, at least), is abosolutely necessary to the sliver plan. You could also try Steely Resolve, but it's not as good as Crystalline because it can be removed, where as Crystalline Sliver is almost impossible to get rid of.

[merfolk_robot]

How have the Stifles been for you guys? I haven't played the deck before but I plan to in GP: Columbus. Do they mostly do random stuff like hose fetchlands and goblin activations? I've heard that Stifle is weak vs solidarity since, once the deck goes off, stopping the win condition does nothing since they can wish for a counter or stroke you or whatever. So I'm wonder generally what roles Stifle play/what is the "feel" of Stifle in the deck.

[Volt]

How have the Stifles been for you guys? I haven't played the deck before but I plan to in GP: Columbus. Do they mostly do random stuff like hose fetchlands and goblin activations? I've heard that Stifle is weak vs solidarity since, once the deck goes off, stopping the win condition does nothing since they can wish for a counter or stroke you or whatever. So I'm wonder generally what roles Stifle play/what is the "feel" of Stifle in the deck.


Yes, they're very good for randomly killng fetchlands (in any matchup), wastelands, and goblin triggers. They're especially good when your opponent isn't expecting them. Wary opponents will play around them as much as they can (i.e. waiting until you're tapped out to crack their fetchland). Sometimes they don't have a choice, though. Also, I compare "Stifle fear" to "Daze fear." People will alter their play, often to their own detriment, to avoid getting hosed by either of those cards. When playing against Goblins, I generally try to save my Stifles for Ringleaders. If I have a Counterspell and a Stifle in hand (and the mana open to cast either), and my opponent casts Ringleader, I will usually choose to Stifle it. This allows me to save my Counterspell for Siege-Gang Commander (or Piledriver, or whatever else I may be afraid of at the moment). Stifles will also help you protect your mana-base, although it isn't a foolproof strategy. You often are forced to tap out the first few turns of the game against Goblins.

People will tell you that Stifle doesn't matter against Solidarity. They're dead wrong. Sure, one Stifle by itself probably isn't going to save you, but... If you back that Stifle up with a hard counter or two, or another Stifle, you're probably golden. Also, if you manage to Stifle one of their fetchlands in the first couple of turns, they'll often roll over and die at that point. That last point should not be underestimated.

[Pinder]

Listen to the man. Stifles alone won't save you in the Solidarity matchup if you're aiming to target their Brain Freeze, but Stifling their Deltas is what I like to call 'super special awesome'. The same applies to Thresh's manabase, and Goblins just has way too many great targets to choose from.

[merfolk_robot]

I didn't even realize mono blue combo decks needed fetches. Thinning vs hate... I guess you go natural strategy. I was wondering in part because I don't really see any ways to alter your lists beyond a sliver or two. They seem very thoroughly tested, and I was just trying to figure out if there was much design room.

[troopatroop]

Stifle is the One mana Sinkhole of Legacy. I give it two thumbs up personally.

[Pinder]

If for some reason you don't like Stifle, you could always try Chain of Vapor in that slot. Since all of your permanents are lands or untargetable, it makes the whole thing very one-sided. And having a 1 mana omni-answer never hurt either.

[merfolk_robot]

I love Stifle, actually. I was just trying to figure out how it generally works/where the main metagame slots/open slots are.

[Pinder]

The only semi-negotiable slots I could see (at least in the list as it is on the first page) are the 1-of Harmonic, Call, and Portent. I've personally come around to Harmonic (after Volt beat me over the head for so long), but it could be resonably moved to the sideboard. Same sort of thing for the Call, and the Portent was really just filler. Those 3 slots are probably the most negotiable at this point. And once Planar Chaos comes out, Talons might make way for Sinew in all its glory.

[Clark Kant]

Why does the deck play the portent actually? It seems to me that it would be a wise move to cut out some of the chaff/excess slots and play a 19 creature base ala...

4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Plated Sliver (I like Plateds because combined with the pump slivers, all your slivers very rapidly become bigger than the majority of goblins)
2 Winged Sliver (I cut to 2 because it seems that with all the pump, the need for evasion (and stuff like First Strike) is quite decreased since your creatures are often the biggest ones on the board)
1 Harmonic Sliver

How does this creature base look?

P.S. I was also wondering what your opinion on running Daze in place of Stifle. I've been having better luck with the card because A.) In my meta, a lot of players can't afford and don't run fetchlands, B.) The more pump oriented build allows this deck to be a lot more aggressive, and Daze works better in the early game and also allows you to tap out to play threats aggressively.

[Maveric78f]

I'll make my criticism based on the last builds proposed in this thread, : the ones of Volt, page 17.

Counter sliver is a nice concept, I play sliver that become very fast big creatures and I counterspell the annoying spells from my opponent, mainly the mass destructions because we need a lot of slivos in play to get advantage from them.

Some cards that are usually commonly accepted in UW or UWg look completely useless in a slivo deck :
- STP ? You are supposed to take advantage on the field with the biggest creatures ever. The only way you can be overwhelmed by creatures is being swarmed. I think that STP is useless.
- Stifle ? Why that ? It looks like a card you like well. can be useful against combo but that should not be MD.
- Counterspell ? Completely irrelevant in an aggro deck. If you consider your deck as a control deck, you lack a lot of control. Counterspell can be played only if you play vials or the instant speed sliver (in TSP). I'm sure that the instant speed sliver is not good enough to see play and vial... why not, it gives you an alternative to play your 2CC slivers even with chalice into play. Even if I play vial, I would not recommand MD counterspells because you are going to play aggro in alot of matchups. Finally, I don't recommand vial neither because it prevents you from playing the harmonic.
- Serum visions ? Once more, you lose tempo, it's ritual and antisynergic with counterspell.

Finally I have a lot of room to enter a bit something else. First, I would automatically include sinew*4 + muscle*4 + plated*4 because they are what gives you advantage on the ground. Cristalline*4 is also auto-include. Winged sliver is your kill, you don't need it too early in the game, that's why 3 looks enough. Harmonic is really a pain for a lot of decks and it saves you from a resolved chalice@2. I would play 3 of them main deck plus 1 in sideboard.

Discusseable slivers : talon : very good against gobs but that's pretty all. In sideboard only, not even auto include.

Now the blue package for aggro decks : 4*FoW, 4*Brainstorm, 4*Daze

Finally some tech to steal some games, mainly at first game : 2*worship, combo with cristalline.

The mana base requires approximately 20 lands. I think that your 18-lands are a bit risky. I know that you play more cantrip but anyway...
4* flooded strand
2* windswept heath
4* tundra
2* tropical island
1* savannah
5* island
1* forest
1* plains

Finally you have 4 slots left for metagame issues. Note that you play only 19 blue spells for the moment and that you should increase it a bit. I often choose to play meddling mage*4 but it can also be some draw, some bounce or some additional alsmost free counterspells like divert, disrupt, misdirection or stifle It can also be some additional slivers : +1 winged, +1 harmonic +2 telekinetic slivers.

The list :

Mana base : (20)
4* flooded strand
2* windswept heath
4* tundra
2* tropical island
1* savannah
5* island
1* forest
1* plains

Slivers : (22)
4* Sinew
4* Muscle
4* Plated
4* Cristalline
3* Winged
3* Harmonic

Other : (18)
4* Meddling mage
4* Force of Will
4* Daze
4* Brainstorm
2* Worship

SB : (15)
1* Harmonic
2* Krosan grip
3* Jotun Grunt
4* Stifle
3* Disrupt
2* Divert/Misdirection

[Zilla]

I didn't even realize mono blue combo decks needed fetches. Thinning vs hate... I guess you go natural strategy. I was wondering in part because I don't really see any ways to alter your lists beyond a sliver or two. They seem very thoroughly tested, and I was just trying to figure out if there was much design room.
Although this is somewhat off topic, I thought I'd point out that Solidarity doesn't run Fetches primarily for deckthinning. It runs them because they provide a shuffle effect following Brainstorm, which is essential. If their sole purpose was for deckthinning I doubt they'd be run, since it opens you up to Stifle and Needle hate, and in some cases helps aggro's clock against you in a meaningful way.

[merfolk_robot]

Oh, okay, thanks.

[Pinder]

- STP ? You are supposed to take advantage on the field with the biggest creatures ever. The only way you can be overwhelmed by creatures is being swarmed. I think that STP is useless.


One mana instant-speed removal is good in any deck. In this case, I find that its main use here is to remove problem creatures, like Meddling Mage or a face up Exalted Angel. It's for the things you can't deal with using just your creatures. StP isn't here to keep you from getting swarmed, it's to remove key creatures so you can swarm them.



- Stifle ? Why that ? It looks like a card you like well. can be useful against combo but that should not be MD.


If you don't want to run Stifle, fine. I personally will keep running it because I've seen firsthand how useful it can be, but I'm not going to keep arguing this. Do what you want.



- Counterspell ? Completely irrelevant in an aggro deck. If you consider your deck as a control deck, you lack a lot of control. Counterspell can be played only if you play vials or the instant speed sliver (in TSP). I'm sure that the instant speed sliver is not good enough to see play and vial... why not, it gives you an alternative to play your 2CC slivers even with chalice into play. Even if I play vial, I would not recommand MD counterspells because you are going to play aggro in alot of matchups. Finally, I don't recommand vial neither because it prevents you from playing the harmonic.


The thing you're missing here, is that this isn't an Aggro deck. And it's not a Control deck. It's an Aggro-Control deck. It certainly leans more towards Control in the recent builds, but it doesn't have to control everything. It just has to control enough for you to establish a winning board position. Some would say that counterspells are clunky in the first few turns, and they're right about that. However, in a lot of the games I've played recently (against aggro at least), I don't actually play my first Sliver until turns 3-4. Why? Because my first 2 turns are spent finding a Crystalline Sliver and controlling the board. Once I have a Crystalline down, then I start dropping the fat.



- Serum visions ? Once more, you lose tempo, it's ritual and antisynergic with counterspell.


Umm...that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.



The list :

Mana base : (20)
4* flooded strand
2* windswept heath
4* tundra
2* tropical island
1* savannah
5* island
1* forest
1* plains

Slivers : (22)
4* Sinew
4* Muscle
4* Plated
4* Cristalline
3* Winged
3* Harmonic

Other : (18)
4* Meddling mage
4* Force of Will
4* Daze
4* Brainstorm
2* Worship

SB : (15)
1* Harmonic
2* Krosan grip
3* Jotun Grunt
4* Stifle
3* Disrupt
2* Divert/Misdirection

I dare you to take this list somewhere. No maindeck removal? And what's with the 3 MD Harmonics? Sure, they're useful, but in multiples they're next to useless (unless you're playing Affinity or something), and you'll often see them clogging your opening hand, which is not good. And the synergy between 3 Harmonic and the 2 maindeck Worships is just great, I imagine. And we tried Mages in the main before. Being the only targetable thing on the table gives them a very short lifespan, so unless you want to Mage every removal spell your opponent is playing (spells which, I will add, can only target the Mage anyway), then Mage will last, on average, about half a turn before it dies. Mage is only there against combo, which is why it's strictly a board card.

[Volt]

I'll make my criticism based on the last builds proposed in this thread, : the ones of Volt, page 17.


That list again, for reference:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Islands
2 Plains

4 Crystalline
4 Sinew
2 Muscle
4 Plated
3 Winged
2 Harmonic Sliver

4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell



- STP ? You are supposed to take advantage on the field with the biggest creatures ever. The only way you can be overwhelmed by creatures is being swarmed. I think that STP is useless.


StP is there primarily to kill the following creatures:
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Piledriver
Goblin Warchief
Siege-Gang Commander
Meddling Mage
Mystic Enforcer
Dark Confidant
Hypnotic Specter
Nantuko Shade
Phyrexian Negator
Akroma (and other Reanimator targets)
Exalted Angel
Soltari Priest
Serendib Efreet
Sea Drake

Useless? Hardly. More like absolutely necessary.



- Counterspell ? Completely irrelevant in an aggro deck. If you consider your deck as a control deck, you lack a lot of control. Counterspell can be played only if you play vials or the instant speed sliver (in TSP). I'm sure that the instant speed sliver is not good enough to see play and vial... why not, it gives you an alternative to play your 2CC slivers even with chalice into play. Even if I play vial, I would not recommand MD counterspells because you are going to play aggro in alot of matchups. Finally, I don't recommand vial neither because it prevents you from playing the harmonic.

This is not an aggro deck. Your proposed build is certainly a lot more aggro-ish than our build, but I doubt it has good game against a varied field.



- Serum visions ? Once more, you lose tempo, it's ritual and antisynergic with counterspell.

I think you've been drinking Toad's kool-aid over at TMD. Serum Visions helps us find Crystalline Sliver, land, or whatever. This deck needs more dig spells than just Brainstorm.



Note that you play only 19 blue spells for the moment and that you should increase it a bit.

Actually, I run 26 blue spells. Don't forget the Crystalline + Winged Slivers. They're blue, too.

[Maveric78f]

I'm going to answer a bit in disorder :

I'll first discuss about the "sliver" builds. It has always been a bad deck in legacy. There is a new card making the deck possibly not so bad, even good : the sinew sliver. This new card is real bomb because you can plan a real aggro strategy with 8* muscle sliver. Your first mistake is to continue playing sliver as you did before, just cutting green becuse you don't need it anymore for muscle.

You're talking about sliver decks with a lot of confidence because you play it since a while now, which is not my case, I admit. But I'm really confident in my thinking because I'm sure that sinew will change the sliver deck approach.


Note that you play only 19 blue spells for the moment and that you should increase it a bit.

I was talking about my build, trying to involve you in it. I did not succeed, I guess...

About STP to answer a lackey that's just stupid, you're already playing 8 answers to a first turn lackey when you're on the draw : 4* plated + 4* FoW. When you're on the play, you (trying again to involve you) have something like 20 answers...

About the rest :
Goblin Piledriver = ??? why would you STP it ??? It's going to crush on your slivers
Goblin Warchief = maybe the best target for STP in gobs. However it doesn't look so important if you can race them.
Siege-Gang Commander = are you planing to be killed wy the siege gang ? You are really onto a very control build with a very slow kill...
Meddling Mage = I don't see why you would STP it. What can it name so disturbing ?
Mystic Enforcer = once more a very slow card and you answer it by a STP instead of taking advantage on the ground.
Dark Confidant = Ok card disadvantage is bad. But if you're an aggro deck, even if the life loss can help you. Your best argument for including STP. Not enough though.
Hypnotic Specter = gosh. It's a problem only if it's a first turn specter. Few pikula decks play dark ritual now. And don't forget that you have a lot of answer when you're on the play and you have FoW when you are on the draw.
Nantuko Shade = why would you STP it... Really I don't get. Let it attack you.
Phyrexian Negator = even worse. Negator against aggro decks is just awful.
Akroma (and other Reanimator targets) : good animator decks play SSS over akroma and guess why ? Because STP is a very waited card. Why would you give your opponent 6 life although you can kill him before getting slained by its big guy. The only reanimator creature that justify a STP is Phantom Nishoba, not played enough to be worth.
Exalted Angel : A very slow card except on crazy openings (mox + ancient tomb turn 1 + plains turn 2) with you not having a FoW or just a daze if you're on the play.
Soltari Priest : LOL. I think that your problem is not soltari piest but the equipments. That why I play 3*harmonic MD.
Serendib Efreet : the same as for soltari priest
Sea Drake : again the same.

STP could find its place in SB if you are a worried nature. But not more. I really can't believe that people again think that STP is an auto include in every white deck. You know why STP is played in splashed gob decks ? Because it's white (means not red) and it can target red protected creatures. And it's often not even played MD ! Incredible.

More funny, not playing STP enbles just to name STP with meddling mage. Isn't that cool if it's a so huge card ?


And what's with the 3 MD Harmonics? Sure, they're useful, but in multiples they're next to useless

May I recall you that they are slivers ? And that it's often going to be an untargettable 3/3 with flying for 3. I don't call that useless.
STP is often useless however, for real : against solidarity, IGGy Pop, burn (you can't even target your own creatures), psychatog, ...


And the synergy between 3 Harmonic and the 2 maindeck Worships is just great, I imagine

Well, with worship into play it's game against a lot of decks in game 1. I don't recommand to keep them in game 2 or 3, except maybe versus not green-splashed goblins, because you'll have FoW/daze to protect it.
The anti-synergy with harmonic is not such a big deal in this configuration, because you are supposed to have game with worship into play. It's also possible to cut the worships for additional cheap counterspells (like stifle) if you feel that your metagame is fed with a lot of anti enchantments MD.

To come back to the harmonic question, it's just huge against all that you can't deal thanks to your slivers. : equipments, locks, ...


And we tried Mages in the main before. Being the only targetable thing on the table gives them a very short lifespan, so unless you want to Mage every removal spell your opponent is playing (spells which, I will add, can only target the Mage anyway), then Mage will last, on average, about half a turn before it dies. Mage is only there against combo, which is why it's strictly a board card.

Ok. I didn't get that playing 4*serum visions would grant you a fourth turn cristalline with 4 lands into play, in order to be able to play your coutnerspells.

Naming STP, lightning bolt, WoG, EE, deed, harpy, intuition, CotV with mage is absolutely useless...

[Iranon]

@ Maveric78f:

I could understand Worship. I could understand Harmonic Sliver in significant numbers. I can't understand running both. If you want to drastically increase your threat count (which seems a big priority), play Talon Sliver instead.

That makes attacking you ludicrous with most aggro decks anyway, improves your own offense, evades the horrible antisynergy, is protected by Crystalline Slivers in play and generally makes far better sense in your deck concept.

I would switch around the slots of Stifle and Meddling Kenny. In addition to many other uses, stifling a Fetch Land can be gamewinning given how nicely the deck can build up steam, and your version can take far better advantage of that than the standard one.
I don't like Daze in large numbers normally, but the ability to have severely undercosted (if situational) LD is one of the few things that would make me consider a full set.

With this setup, I second not running swords. Since you only have 4 *good* answers to Goblin Lackey, the new Piracy Charm might be worthy of consideration thogh. It is blue, answers both Lackey and Confidant, can even speed up your kill if you don't have a Crystalline Sliver in play and is never totally dead.
I won't comment on the lack of draw yet; the deck might need 2 Serum Visions but probably not more, and slots are scarce anyway.


On a closing note, It would be nice if the tone was a little more polite... and maybe it's not productive to discuss the builds side-by-side because they are less similar than they appear.

[Parcher]

Swords to Plowshares is useless...

Just to throw one more reason to run it. Say what you will about never having to play against the deck. With only 4 Daze, and 4 Force of Will, if you run this deck against Salvagers Game without StP, you will lose. Every time. Post board the Stifles will slow the deck down enough that you might be able to race, if they are stupid or unfortunate enough not to be able to discard them first. In fact, without Needle, Crypt (Grunt doesn't matter as the only GY cards that are significant are not there until it is too late), a 3-4 turn clock, Discard, any significant Countermagic, Chalice, or Plow, I can't think of a single Legacy deck with a worse matchup.

[Clark Kant]

Since everyone seemed to overlook my post to deal with the outlandish claims in the post that followed, I reiterate.

Why does the deck play the portent actually? It seems to me that it would be a wise move to cut out some of the chaff/excess slots and play a 20 creature base ala...

17 Land (this has worked fine for me)

4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Plated Sliver (I like Plateds because combined with the pump slivers, all your slivers very rapidly become bigger than the majority of goblins)
2 Winged Sliver (I cut to 2 because it seems that with all the pump, the need for evasion (and stuff like First Strike) is quite decreased since your creatures are often the biggest ones on the board)
2 Harmonic Sliver

4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Daze

On the other hand, due to my aggro dominated meta, I'm also toying with...

4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Worship

This build doesn't run Crystalline bc they can be a liability with Worship. Should I go ahead and run a crystalline in place of a Winged anyways?

P.S. I was also wondering what your opinion on running Daze in place of Stifle. I've been having better luck with the card because A.) In my meta, a lot of players can't afford and don't run fetchlands, B.) The more pump oriented build allows this deck to be a lot more aggressive, and Daze works better in the early game and also allows you to tap out to play threats aggressively.

[Volt]

@Maveric78f:

Meddling Mages can be a real nuisance for us. Your opponent names Crystalline Sliver with the first one, and now all of his maindeck removal is good. The next one names Sinew Sliver, and now our guys can't get very big. And so on. I've played against UGW Thresh often enough to know that Meddling Mage is very annoying.

Siege-Gang Commander is the one card that allows the Goblins player to pull out a win from a stalemate position. If you can't counter it, you need to kill it fast, preferably before your opponent can untap again.

I appreciate that you're going for a more aggro-oriented build. However, aggro-slivers will never be as fast Goblins, Faerie Stompy, and some other aggro decks. For that reason, it's going to have a very tough time beating any of the prominent combo decks. Your clock isn't fast enough, and you don't run enough disruption.

I will also reiterate that I don't think Daze is all that great in a sliver deck. You really want to get to 2 mana without interruption, so you can start dropping slivers. And you run Harmonic Slivers to clean up problems that slip through the cracks. And Daze just sucks after the first few turns.


@Clark Kant:

Portent has been cut. With the eminent availability of Sinew Sliver, we can simply add more beef to the deck, rather than 'diggers' to go find the beef.

See above for my feelings about Daze.

Winged Sliver is still very important. Even if you run a full 8 'buff' slivers, you're not always going to be able to slam you're way through on the ground, especially against devoted aggro decks. With wings comes victory. I would not run fewer than 3.

[Clark Kant]

Just running 1 Harmonic seems janky. I would rather run 2 or none and 2 Worship.

The main question is...

How many Harmonic Slivers should be run in a build that plays 2 Worship?

Is 0 the correct call? Or is the card too good not to run, and artifacts/enchantments prominent enough that you can usually find some target other than Worship?

[Volt]

Just running 1 Harmonic seems janky. I would rather run 2 or none and 2 Worship.

The main question is...

How many Harmonic Slivers should be run in a build that plays 2 Worship?

Is 0 the correct call? Or is the card too good not to run, and artifacts/enchantments prominent enough that you can usually find some target other than Worship?

I'm not sure which build you're referring to. For current discussion, I would refer you to my list in post #374 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=104519&postcount=374). I'm running 2 Harmonics (with 2 more in the sideboard) and no Worships. The Worships were dropped because the matchup against Goblins is quite good without them.

[Clark Kant]

Yes, but the Burn matchup isn't.

Thanks to Rift Bolt, burn is getting to be a frequent matchup. And it wins by turn 4 easy, which is something you just can't race. (another reason I run so much pump and plated, so that Flamebreak doesn't just wreck you).

Worship belongs even for that one matchup alone. Atleast in the side.

So assuming I'm running 2 Worship, should I not run any Harmonics?

[Pinder]

I'm not sure which build you're referring to. For current discussion, I would refer you to my list in post #374 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=104519&postcount=374). I'm running 2 Harmonics (with 2 more in the sideboard) and no Worships. The Worships were dropped because the matchup against Goblins is quite good without them.

I apologize. I'm sure he was referring to the list on the front page. I'm not using that one either, actually. I still only run 1 MD Harmonic, but instead of the Portent, I actually run 1 Shifting Sliver. I'm pretty sure I'm alone on that one, and I'm still testing it, so I won't put it up there, but I'll change the list to reflect 2 MD Harmonics, as that seems to be the general consensus.

And yes, Worship should be in the board, for the Burn matchup specifically and for others as well. Harmonic is next to useless against Burn, so you can safely side them out G2 for 2 Worships, which pretty much seals it.

[Volt]

Yes, but the Burn matchup isn't.

Thanks to Rift Bolt, burn is getting to be a frequent matchup. And it wins by turn 4 easy, which is something you just can't race. (another reason I run so much pump and plated, so that Flamebreak doesn't just wreck you).

Worship belongs even for that one matchup alone. Atleast in the side.

So assuming I'm running 2 Worship, should I not run any Harmonics?

Running Harmonic Slivers and Worships at the same time is actually not that big of a deal. If you have Worship + Crystalline + Harmonic in play, you just slam with the Harmonic until it dies, and then you can cast the other slivers in your hand without fear of killing your Worship. Also, don't forget Stifle can be used to negate the Harmonic "comes into play" trigger.

For the Burn matchup, you definitely need some sideboard help. Worship and blue blasts are great options. Also, I wouldn't rush to say that Harmonic Slivers should automatically be sided out. They're a great answer to Pyrostatic Pillar, which Burn will probably be siding in against you (EDIT: or possibly even maindecking!).

[Pinder]

Running Harmonic Slivers and Worships at the same time is actually not that big of a deal. If you have Worship + Crystalline + Harmonic in play, you just slam with the Harmonic until it dies, and then you can cast the other slivers in your hand without fear of killing your Worship. Also, don't forget Stifle can be used to negate the Harmonic "comes into play" trigger.


He has a point there. You could really go either way.



For the Burn matchup, you definitely need some sideboard help. Worship and blue blasts are great options. Also, I wouldn't rush to say that Harmonic Slivers should automatically be sided out. They're a great answer to Pyrostatic Pillar, which Burn will probably be siding in against you (EDIT: or possibly even maindecking!).

True there, too. I think that Stifles would actually be the best thing to side out in the Burn matchups, because I can't really think of a single thing in burn that they're useful against. If you really want to keep Harmonics in ,then Talon Sliver could also be a good option to side out as well, because they aren't going to be blocking you. You could side out winged for this reason as well, but remember that they pitch to Force, so siding out Talons first is a better idea. Also, Swords is next to useless in this matchup (they don't have guys and you can't target your own anyway), so you could probably toss those out G2 as well. Counting the Stifles, StPs, and Talon Slivers gives you 9 dead cards that you can easily side out before Harmonics. That's enough room for a playset of BEBs and Hydroblasts, as well as a single Worship (two if you can find another card to side out). So, in retrospect, Harmonic probably should stay in.

[Volt]

I think that Stifles would actually be the best thing to side out in the Burn matchups, because I can't really think of a single thing in burn that they're useful against. If you really want to keep Harmonics in ,then Talon Sliver could also be a good option to side out as well, because they aren't going to be blocking you. You could side out winged for this reason as well, but remember that they pitch to Force, so siding out Talons first is a better idea. Also, Swords is next to useless in this matchup (they don't have guys and you can't target your own anyway), so you could probably toss those out G2 as well. Counting the Stifles, StPs, and Talon Slivers gives you 9 dead cards that you can easily side out before Harmonics. That's enough room for a playset of BEBs and Hydroblasts, as well as a single Worship (two if you can find another card to side out). So, in retrospect, Harmonic probably should stay in.

Going by my most recent list, this would be my sideboard strategy against Burn:
-4 Stifle
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Hydroblast
+4 Meddling Mage

Yeah, I realize the Mages aren't super-duper against Burn. Since you don't have room for 8 blue blasts in the sideboard, though, you use what you have. You name Magma Jet with the Mage, and force the Burn player to waste a 3-dmg bolt to kill it. Hey, that's one less bolt that will be aimed at your dome, right?

Obviously, Worships are great in this matchup, too. Side them in if you've got them.

EDIT: Btw, Winged Slivers makes your slivers immune to Flamebreak. So don't side them out.

[Pinder]

Another great card against burn (almost better than BEB in some cases) to side in against Burn is Chill. If you can resolve a Chill (which, it turns out, you can with 4 Forces and 4 Counterspells vs their 4 REBs), it really slows them down. They'll, on average, play about 1 spell per turn that way until late game. And it makes Fireblast suck. If you can fit them in the board, I'd definitely put them in before Mages against Burn.

Of course, a Mage naming Flamebreak (if it survives long) could be pretty nice...

EDIT:



EDIT: Btw, Winged Slivers makes your slivers immune to Flamebreak. So don't side them out.


Holy crap. I never even thought of that. Winged stays in.

[Maverick676]

If you are concerned about burn, play absolute law. It makes your slivers invincible to pyroclasm, flamebreak, ect. Not to mention it makes your slivers even better at destroying goblins. This might become even more important if we take talon sliver out of the build.

[Pinder]

The point about the Burn matchup is, though, that it isn't bad because they can get rid of your slivers. Crystalline makes them essentially removal-proof, and as I just discovered, Winged makes them even moreso (take that, Flamebreak!). The problem is, then, that every piece of Burn they sling will only have 1 target: you. It's like all of your creatures are holding big signs that say 'hey, target that guy'. Absolute Law won't really help us with regards to that, unless they offered a new errata that gave its controller pro red. Worship is definitely our best bet for getting around that particular problem.

[Maverick676]

You're right about that, the problem with the burn matchup for me has always been that they can beat you by only one turn usually, with the addition of more muscle slivers to the deck i don't think this will be a problem anymore. The burn player's only chance will be to get rid of you slivers with a sweeper spell like pyro or flamebreak. Not to mention that Meddling Mage + Absolute Law so synergistic in this matchup.

Also I wanted to pose a question in regards to the creature base, Is plated sliver really worth running anymore? In almost every matchup tendon sliver is strictly better. This deck really doesn't need a one drop creature since nothing should come down before crystaline sliver and you should be spending your first couple of turns playing cantrips and countering things. Granted plated is good against goblins, but without it we have 11 answers (FOW,Swords,Stifle) for lackey on the draw, and basically the whole deck answers lackey on the play.

[Clark Kant]

The burn builds you must face off against must be pretty bad.

Burn can handily race you, with or without 8 muscle slivers.

Your plan...

Turn 1 - Brainstorm
Turn 2 - Crack Fetchland, Muscle Sliver
Turn 3 - Sinew Sliver, Attack for 3
Turn 4 - Winged Sliver, Leave countermana open, Attack for 6


Their plan...
Turn 1 - Deal 3
Turn 2 - Deal 6
Turn 3 - Deal 6, (Bad Burn players: Fireblast for the Win. - Oh it's FoWed)
Turn 4 - Good Burn Players: Deal 6 - One is Countered, the Other is FoWed, then they play their Fireblast and win.

It's not this decks fault though. Burn is among the best decks in the format, most people just haven't realized just how good it is thanks to the recent additions, Lava Spike, Flamebreak, and Rift Bolt yet.

[Maverick676]

LOL Burn is a terrible deck, and if it actually put up numbers I would make a dedicated sideboard slot for it. Seriously burn can be completely shut down by warmth, chill, or worship. And you are not taking meddling mage into account in your little matchup analysis are you?

If burn is a problem in your area go with warmth (1W enchanment, gain 2 life for every red spell cast). But I tend to reserve my sideboard slots for cards that are useful in more than one matchup.

[Volt]

Also I wanted to pose a question in regards to the creature base, Is plated sliver really worth running anymore? In almost every matchup tendon sliver is strictly better. This deck really doesn't need a one drop creature since nothing should come down before crystaline sliver and you should be spending your first couple of turns playing cantrips and countering things. Granted plated is good against goblins, but without it we have 11 answers (FOW,Swords,Stifle) for lackey on the draw, and basically the whole deck answers lackey on the play.

Well, despite the fact that I disagree with the statement "nothing should come down before crystalline sliver," I think you're asking a pretty good question. I don't know the answer right now, but I intend to find out.

If we were to cut out the Plated Slivers, we could fit in the last 2 Muscle Slivers, another counterspell, and another land. Yes, that would make 19 lands.

Here's a proposed decklist for play-testing:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Islands
1 Plains

4 Crystalline
4 Sinew
4 Muscle
3 Winged
2 Harmonic Sliver

4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Counterspell

[Zilla]

It's not this decks fault though. Burn is among the best decks in the format, most people just haven't realized just how good it is thanks to the recent additions, Lava Spike, Flamebreak, and Rift Bolt yet.
I've been running Lava Spike and Flamebreak in my Burn's maindeck for over a year (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2572). I wouldn't call them recent additions. Rift Bolt is the only new card, and it does absolutely nothing to shore up the deck's major weaknesses, which amount to (in no particular order): inconsistency, lack of gas if the game goes long, problems with lifegain, and major problems with specific hate cards like Chalice of the Void and Chill.

Burn has answers to the last two problems, but these answers are problems in and of themselves: the answers you bring in from the board to answer things like Chill and Chalice force you to side out actual threats, which only exacerbate the first two problems - lack of consistency and lack of gas in the late game.

Burn is not one of the best decks in the format. Until it gets a formidable draw engine, it never will be.

Further discussion on this topic should be addressed in the Burn thread, but since it was brought up here I thought I'd address it.

[Maverick676]

Well, despite the fact that I disagree with the statement "nothing should come down before crystalline sliver," I think you're asking a pretty good question. I don't know the answer right now, but I intend to find out.

If we were to cut out the Plated Slivers, we could fit in the last 2 Muscle Slivers, another counterspell, and another land. Yes, that would make 19 lands.

Here's a proposed decklist for play-testing:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Islands
1 Plains

4 Crystalline
4 Sinew
4 Muscle
3 Winged
2 Harmonic Sliver

4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Counterspell

I didn't mean nothing comes down before crystaline as an absolute, I just meant in general that you try to play crystaline sliver out before your other slivers, This list looks incredibly solid. My one concern is no talon sliver, but with 8 muscles I guess it won't be that necessary.

[Pinder]

I was actually thinking the same thing. Durahan and I have talked about how the +0/+1 from Plated Siver could easily be replaced by a +1/+1 from Sinew Sliver (hear that, Mav? The name is confirmed now, you know), especially since, in recent playtesting, my first sliver usually comes down about turn 3 anyway. And we have StP and Force for Lackey anyway.,I'm not really counting Stifle because it's hardly a permanent answer, although I realize that it can stall for a turn to play out something that can block it. The only thing Plated still has going for it IMO is that it's still a one-drop. Being able to play a 3/4 beater for W and still hold mana open for counterspell is really nice in the mid-to-late game. Of course, if that's all we need, then we might as well run Sidewinder Sliver, which in the same situation would be a 3/3 flanking for W. I'd also still like to see Talon sliver, but I can concede that it's not quite as useful as it used to be now. I think I'm going to copy that list onto the front page for now.

EDIT: Instead of the third Island, though, couldn't we throw in a basic forest again? I realize that green is a splash, but with 2 Harmonics and 4 Muscle we have 6 green spells maindeck. I'm bringing this up because I got royally hosed by an early game Blood Moon last Friday. I didn't have any Muscle on the table, and it was impossible for me to play Harmonics to get rid of it. We don't really need a Wasteland-proof source of green, but we could use a Blood Moon-Proof source of one.

[Volt]

EDIT: Instead of the third Island, though, couldn't we throw in a basic forest again? I realize that green is a splash, but with 2 Harmonics and 4 Muscle we have 6 green spells maindeck. I'm bringing this up because I got royally hosed by an early game Blood Moon last Friday. I didn't have any Muscle on the table, and it was impossible for me to play Harmonics to get rid of it. We don't really need a Wasteland-proof source of green, but we could use a Blood Moon-Proof source of one.

I'm more concerned about having blue mana to cast counterspells later in the game, but I suppose a basic forest could be justified. If you're going to do that, you should probably replace the Polluted Deltas with Windswept Heaths, too.

[Pinder]

I'm more concerned about having blue mana to cast counterspells later in the game, but I suppose a basic forest could be justified. If you're going to do that, you should probably replace the Polluted Deltas with Windswept Heaths, too.

I don't think we should replace Deltas outright, but we could probably switch to 2 Heaths, 1 Delta. We still need our blue, you know (and as long as we have 2 basic sources of blue mana, I think we're okay as far as counterspell goes in the late game).

[Maverick676]

If you want to run a basic forest then run my original manabase(with heaths) It's the best configuration of fetchlands to find your 3 basics. I have always thought that the basic forest was necessary against nobasic hate. Since every land except 2 in your deck produce U getting UU is almost never a problem.

[Pinder]

I still think that two Islands is a good idea, not just to have UU, but to have basic UU. I know it's irrelevant in a lot of matchups, but note that 2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Forest gives us 4 basic lands maindeck (as well as 19 lands). I think it would be really nice to be able to hit 4 un-wastelandable mana sources against Gobs, because once we have 4 mana, that's when we can start playing slivers and holding mana for counterspells.

[Maverick676]

I still think that two Islands is a good idea, not just to have UU, but to have basic UU. I know it's irrelevant in a lot of matchups, but note that 2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Forest gives us 4 basic lands maindeck (as well as 19 lands). I think it would be really nice to be able to hit 4 un-wastelandable mana sources against Gobs, because once we have 4 mana, that's when we can start playing slivers and holding mana for counterspells.

Well if your running 19 lands then 2 basic islands is a great idea. My manabase is still at 17 land.

[Pinder]

Jeez, get with the times :tongue:.

I think that you should at least be running 18, though. It actually makes our land drops a ton more consistent.

But then again, you could be running nothing but 4 Fetchlands, a Tundra, and a Trop, and still end up with 7 land in play by the end of the game. I don't know how you do it, but you draw land like a mofo.

But for the rest of us, 18-19 land is actually pretty nice.

[Clark Kant]

19 Land is overkill IMHO.

Most builds of Thres run 17-18 Land along with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions and 3-4 Mental Notes.

Thresh also runs 2-3 Mystic Enforcers and 1-2 Worships thus having a curve that tops off at a number significantly higher than yours.

The Mental Notes don't really help Thresh find Land.

So you are running Thresh's cantrip base for the most part, but with a lower curve. I think 18 is plenty, and even 17 suffice.

Having to mulligan a bit more often is usually far better than getting mana flooded close to half the games you play.

Also Plated is a solid card.

An extra piece of toughness usually makes first strike irrelevent.

It puts your creatures out of burn and flamebreak range. It lets you block bigger creatures and survive. And it's nice to play a couple of one drop slivers to get the beats rolling from early on.

I would go with.

3 Plated
4 Crystalline
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
3 Winged
2 Harmonic

I would cut a stifle and a land and a counterspell to make that happen if neccesary.

Think about it like this. This deck only needs two lands to operate well. But it definately needs more than two creatures, otherwise, what's even the point of playing slivers. Creatures also tend to get killed a lot faster too. So you should by any measure be running more creatures than lands.

[Pinder]

19 Land is overkill IMHO.


You could be right about that. 18 is probably fine, but it couldn't hurt to test.



Also Plated is a solid card.

An extra piece of toughness usually makes first strike irrelevent.


Yeah...so does an extra point of power and toughness. Hence, Sinew Sliver. Plated isn't really doing anything that Sinew doesn't do better, except costing 1 mana. If it turns out that that's more relevant than an extra power, then Plated Slivers will be right back in, I can assure you.



And it's nice to play a couple of one drop slivers to get the beats rolling from early on.


In that case, Sidewinder is also a one drop sliver. But Plated blocks Lackey better, so I think it's probably still better in this case.

But is it better than, say, Sinew Sliver? Only testing will tell.

[Volt]

19 Land is overkill IMHO.

Most builds of Thres run 17-18 Land along with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions and 3-4 Mental Notes.

Thresh also runs 2-3 Mystic Enforcers and 1-2 Worships thus having a curve that tops off at a number significantly higher than yours.


It's not quite that simple. First of all, I'm not sure that "most builds" of Thresh are running just 8 cantrips (excluding Mental Notes). Many are running Portents and possibly Predicts in addition to Brainstorm and Serum Visions. Those extra cantrips mean they can get away with running fewer lands.

Second, while Thresh's curve may top out at 4 with Mystic Enforcer, by far most of their spells cost just 1 to cast, with relatively few 2cc spells, no 3cc spells, and just 1 or 2 Enforcers. I have a deck-analysis statistic that I call 'Mana Saturation.' It is calculated by summing the total casting costs of all the spells in the deck, excluding "free" spells like Force of Will and Daze, and dividing that sum by the number of lands in the deck. A bit of research has shown me that most successful Fish-style decks (including Thresh, UWB Fish, etc) have a MS of about 3, give or take a couple tenths of a point. To achieve a MS in that range with the changes we're currently discussing, we need to run 19 lands. This is because Countersliver is a considerably more top-heavy with 2cc spells than is Thresh.

As far as Plated Sliver possibly being cut from the deck, I haven't conceded that it should be. I just want to test it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Thanks to our friends in Russia, a large number of PC cards are in the process of being spoiled and translated on mtgsalvation.com. Among other things, we get the foloowing disappointing slivers:

"Jungle Sliver" 2UG
Sliver, Uncommon
All slivers have defender and "when this comes into play, draw a card."
2/2

"Samite Sliver" 2W
Sliver, Common
All slivers have "2, tap: regenerate target sliver."
2/2

Green sliver is 3G for a 2/2 that grants haste.

Blue sliver appears to be a 3/3 for 4U that grants Vigilance. Boo for costing five mana!

So, unplayable jank in this deck, all of them. Maybe UWR slivers? Depends on what the UR and WR ones do...a good Orzhov sliver would make a decent argument for UWB slivers as well.

EDIT: linkage - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=64229

[CrunchBite]

Well, MTGS just got a buncha PC cards, in Russian. Among them are a few slivers. Unfortunatly they don't seem to be any good for this deck (or at all), but I'll list them here anyway. Note that these are all translated from Russian by other people in the MTGS thread so forgive me if there are any innaccuracies. Thread is here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=64229).

Spitting Sliver - 4B
Creature - Sliver - Common
All slivers gain first strike.
3/3

Green Sliver - 3G
Creature - Sliver - Common
All Slivers gain haste.
2/2

"Jungle" Sliver - 2GU
Creature - Sliver - Uncommon
All Slivers have defender and when this creature CIP draw a card.
2/2

White Sliver - 2W
Creature - Sliver - Common
All Slivers gain "2T: Regenerate target Sliver"
2/2

Blue Sliver - 4U
Creature - Sliver - Common
All Slivers gain Vigilance.
3/3

Slivers so far are dissapointing. Most of them are significantly weaker then their older cousins. I guess crypt sliver and clot sliver were just so awsome that they had to combine them :/.

This leaves only the red, 4 gold and one other (probably another timeshifted) unknown. There's some neat other cards over in the spoiler thread but nothing that really struk my fancy for this deck.

Edit: wups got beaten to the punch -_-

[Pinder]

Wow, as if printing Plague Sliver and Hivestone in Time Spiral wasn't enough, now they print a sliver that gives all slivers defender. Thanks, Wizards. You sure know how to kill a deck for no good reason. Seriously, half the slivers they print nowadays are better against a sliver deck than in one. And a four mana Heart Sliver? Come on :rolleyes:.

EDIT: Okay, so no one is going to play 'Dormant Sliver' maindeck and even if MeatHooks becomes popular, not many decks are in the right colors to board it. And even if they are, there are probably less narrow options. But still, I was hoping for more than one good sliver this time around. Looks like Harmonic and Sinew are just about all we're getting out of this block.

[Maverick676]

Wow, as if printing Plague Sliver and Hivestone in Time Spiral wasn't enough, now they print a sliver that gives all slivers defender. Thanks, Wizards. You sure know how to kill a deck for no good reason. Seriously, half the slivers they print nowadays are better against a sliver deck than in one. And a four mana Heart Sliver? Come on :rolleyes:.

EDIT: Okay, so no one is going to play 'Dormant Sliver' maindeck and even if MeatHooks becomes popular, not many decks are in the right colors to board it. And even if they are, there are probably less narrow options. But still, I was hoping for more than one good sliver this time around. Looks like Harmonic and Sinew are just about all we're getting out of this block.

I wouldn't worry about that card. Siding it in against uss would be stupid, every card in our deck would be a cantrip. It's kinda hard for decks to win when you get a crystaline, winged, and 4-5 muscle slivers on the board.

[Clark Kant]

Oh come now, I would LOVE for one of my opponents to play that defender sliver against me.

I get to draw cards a bunch of cards, play a bunch more pump slivers, then Swords the defender sliver

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh come now, I would LOVE for one of my opponents to play that defender sliver against me.

I get to draw cards a bunch of cards, play a bunch more pump slivers, then Swords the defender sliver
You do realize this only works if you don't have a Crystalline Sliver out, right? And that most opponents who know their slivers will anticipate said Crystalline Sliver and try to drop this after Crystalline has hit the board? Because once that happens, this deck has no way to remove it...and you are no longer able to win. Your only option is to counter it.

Not that this'll see much play, I'm just sayin'.

[Maverick676]

You do realize this only works if you don't have a Crystalline Sliver out, right? And that most opponents who know their slivers will anticipate said Crystalline Sliver and try to drop this after Crystalline has hit the board? Because once that happens, this deck has no way to remove it...and you are no longer able to win. Your only option is to counter it.

Not that this'll see much play, I'm just sayin'.

I'm not to worried about seeing this card in sideboards. There are better ways to hose this deck. However even if it does become a popular sideboard option, all we have to do is put in the milling sliver or some other alternate win condition.

[Meekrab]

Blah blah sinew sliver is good, etc.

[CrunchBite]

Here's another one, still fairly useless but not 100%....

Frenetic Sliver - 1RU
Creature - Sliver - Uncommon
All Slivers gain flying and "0: Flip a coin, if you win remove this creature from the game then return it to play under it's owners control at the end of turn. If you lose, sacrifice the creature"

I don't see a lot of reason to splash red over green or black, but if you did this would be a reasonable answer to wrath. Save half your Slivers (on average) for free without having to replay them.

Edit: Info via MTGS. Thread here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=64352)

[Jankwolf]

Yeah, I really dont like the whole flip a coin thing is a tad hairy...
I would much rather prefer the sliver that Pinder mentioned earlier in the thread...I believe it was pay 0 sac a sliver draw a card...I think that would be better against wrath than the chance sliver...

[Alfred]

It grants flying if that matters at all.

[Pinder]

The fact that it grants flying is nice, and the ability is relevant (if only randomly) against most forms of removal. However, that's not really enough of a reason to splash red just for this thing.

Unless we could squeeze in 4 MD Krark's Thumb, I guess :rolleyes:.

[scrumdogg]

The only way to destroy your gameplan (if you get Crystalline out, which is a priority) IS mass removal. You lose 50% fewer slivers to mass removal with this card at the cost of an easy splash. Oh, and btw, it also doubles up your ability to fly. Please explain to me how almost guaranteeing evasion & only losing (on average admittedly & at random) 50% of your slivers to Damnation, WoG, EE, P Deed, Powder Keg etc etc is bad? It also makes for even more obnoxious combat math. Your opponent literally won't know which slivers will still be alive after an interactive combat phase.

[Maverick676]

This coin flip crap is useless, I wouldn't use it in combat. Why? because we win combat with this deck. I would much rather play more counters to prevent mass removal than play this piece of crap. A 50/50 chance to lose my crystaline sliver is a huge risk, and one I would not be willing to take.

Please people stop talking about all of the useless 3CC+ slivers in this thread.

[Pinder]

The next topic of discussion I would like to bring up is Extirpate (discussion here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4935)). If this thing gets big (which I'm almost certain it will), we might be in trouble. An uncounterable mini-Cranial directed at a dead Crystalline Sliver (or at a Wastelanded Trop or even at one (or -eep- both) of our Fetchlands could severely hamper our game plan. With that in mind, if we start seeing this thing a lot, I have a few suggestions:

1). Run 1 MD Forest. It hasn't been strictly necessary in the past, but now it might be important to have not just an un-Wastelandable source of green, but an un-Extirpatable one.

2). Reconsider running Living Wish. I know it's slower and more clunky than Eladamri's Call, but being able to fetch things (well, creatures and lands) from RFG could be a real asset if we're up against Extirpate. Also, it would allow us to run a 3/3 split of Sinew/Muscle and keep a 4th of each in the board as well as other, more narrow slivers (Talon comes to mind for Gobs, and possibly another Harmonic) as board options as well. It also fetches lands, which means that, if we do it right, Extirpate removing our Trops or something would actually be more like a mega-fetchland, giving us access to all four of them. And we could possibly have some useful land in the board as well (like Nantuko Monastery against Dormant Sliver :tongue:). And last but not least, it gets back any Crystalline or Winged Slivers we've pitched to Force. Not the best use ever, but it bears mentioning.

Thoughts?

[Blair Phoenix]

The next topic of discussion I would like to bring up is Extirpate (discussion here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4935)). If this thing gets big (which I'm almost certain it will), we might be in trouble. An uncounterable mini-Cranial directed at a dead Crystalline Sliver (or at a Wastelanded Trop or even at one (or -eep- both) of our Fetchlands could severely hamper our game plan. With that in mind, if we start seeing this thing a lot, I have a few suggestions:

1). Run 1 MD Forest. It hasn't been strictly necessary in the past, but now it might be important to have not just an un-Wastelandable source of green, but an un-Extirpatable one.

2). Reconsider running Living Wish. I know it's slower and more clunky than Eladamri's Call, but being able to fetch things (well, creatures and lands) from RFG could be a real asset if we're up against Extirpate. Also, it would allow us to run a 3/3 split of Sinew/Muscle and keep a 4th of each in the board as well as other, more narrow slivers (Talon comes to mind for Gobs, and possibly another Harmonic) as board options as well. It also fetches lands, which means that, if we do it right, Extirpate removing our Trops or something would actually be more like a mega-fetchland, giving us access to all four of them. And we could possibly have some useful land in the board as well (like Nantuko Monastery against Dormant Sliver :tongue:). And last but not least, it gets back any Crystalline or Winged Slivers we've pitched to Force. Not the best use ever, but it bears mentioning.

Thoughts?Eh, adding the forest I can see, but I think changing the deck that much by adding Living Wish just to play around that one card is a bit extreme.

[Pinder]

Eh, adding the forest I can see, but I think changing the deck that much by adding Living Wish just to play around that one card is a bit extreme.

True. Living Wish is only really a consideration if Extirpate gets really huge. If it doesn't, forget I said anything. And it's not like Living Wish is just for Extirpate. It would be about as useful as Call in most matchups as well.

But at any rate, we'll just have to wait and see what sort of archetypes get built around Extirpate.

[Alfred]

Neurotic Sliver
Creature - Sliver
Each sliver has ", sacrifice this creature: Destroy target permanent."
2/2
Uncommon.



Battering Sliver
Creature- sliver
All slivers gain trample
4/4
Common.


Cautary Sliver
Creature - Sliver
Each sliver has ", sacrifice this creature: This creature deals 1 damage to target creature or player. , sacrifice this creature: Prevent the next 1 damage to target creature or player."
2/2
Uncommon


Half a Goblin Legionaire Sliver, which seems pretty good, "Vindicate" Sliver, which could either be awesome, or could cost too much. Both of these look like they could warrant testing.

[Blair Phoenix]

Neurotic Sliver
1WB
Creature - Sliver
Each sliver has "3, sacrifice this creature: Destroy target permanent."
2/2
Uncommon.

I know, I know... but wait...

Battering Sliver
5R
Creature- sliver
All slivers gain trample
4/4
Common.

Cautary Sliver
RW
Creature - Sliver
Each sliver has "R, sacrifice this creature: This creature deals 1 damage to target creature or player.W , sacrifice this creature: Prevent the next 1 damage to target creature or player."
2/2
Uncommon


Next time post mana costs please. Copy paste doesn't do that

[CrunchBite]

That vindicate sliver is yummy. Worth doing WUB instead of WUG? Comes down to something like Harmonic + Muscle 5-8 + Critter fetch (Call/Wish) vs. Hibernation + Vindicate + Black Control. Having access to our own Extirpate would be pretty nice....

Vindicate Sliver isn't as efficient as Harmonic for taking down artifact and enchantments but vindicate is more versitile. The 3 activation cost might end up being too restrictive, though.

[xsockmonkeyx]

That vindicate sliver is yummy. Worth doing WUB instead of WUG?

Yes, that, Hibernation Sliver and the black hate out of the board.

[Maverick676]

As much as I hate to say it, I just don't think the vindicate sliver is viable. Every sliver in the deck plays a vital role, by granting an important ability. You don't want to sack your slivers because they are important to the decks gameplan. The only viable option would then be to sac the vindicate sliver, in which case just play vindicate.

[Pinder]

I'd have to agree with Mav here. Uncounterable Vindicate is nice, but saccing a sliver seems like too steep of a cost. More often than not you'd be saccing something you'd rather have on the board. Sure, it kills something dead, but I don't know if that's worth drastically changing the colors for, either.

[Hanni]

I don't think sac'ing Slivers is necessarily a problem when multiple Winged Slivers, Vindicate Slivers, and even multiple Crystalline Slivers (to an extent, since you either won't play multiples at a time or you still get the benefit of a decent-sized body) to remove problematic things. The problem I see is the 3cc cost that can be Pithing Needle'd. It's still an interesting card though and would suppliment nicely into a LD theme with Stifle and Wasteland, however well that would work out.

[Maverick676]

If you have that many excess slivers out you should have swung for the win 2 turns ago.

[Blair Phoenix]

Dark Heart Silver - BG
Creature - Sliver (UC)
All Slivers have "Sacrifice this creature: Gain 3 Life"
2/2

There you go. The last enemy colored Sliver.

[Volt]

Dark Heart Silver - BG
Creature - Sliver (UC)
All Slivers have "Sacrifice this creature: Gain 3 Life"
2/2

There you go. The last enemy colored Sliver.

And a good one, too. Probably not good enough to make me want to splash a 4th color, though.

I don't think any of these new slivers, aside from Sinew Sliver, are good enough to make the cut in this deck. Necrotic Sliver could find a place in a UBW build, but I wouldn't switch to UBW just for that card. The best reasons to switch to UBW remain Hibernation Sliver (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/140.html) and the usual black sideboard options.

Personally, I think I'll probably be sticking with good ol' UGW.

[Pinder]

And a good one, too. Probably not good enough to make me want to splash a 4th color, though.

I don't think any of these new slivers, aside from Sinew Sliver, are good enough to make the cut in this deck. Necrotic Sliver could find a place in a UBW build, but I wouldn't switch to UBW just for that card. The best reasons to switch to UBW remain Hibernation Sliver (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/140.html) and the usual black sideboard options.

Personally, I think I'll probably be sticking with good ol' UGW.

Me too. So far Sinew is the only sliver from PC I'd consider running. I didn't figure we'd get more than 1 anyway. Dark Heart Sliver would be so good, too, if it were only in our colors. As it stands, Victual is probably a better option for this deck, even with the mana comittment.

A UBG build with Dark Heart and Hibernation doesn't sound half bad, though. Being able to sac a sliver for 3 life and then use 2 of it to save another (for a net lifegain of 1!) is all kinds of sexy. Too bad you'd have to squeeze in white for Crystalline, at which point you might as well throw in red and make 5 color SliverJank.

[Aggro_zombies]

A UBG build with Dark Heart and Hibernation doesn't sound half bad, though. Being able to sac a sliver for 3 life and then use 2 of it to save another (for a net lifegain of 1!) is all kinds of sexy. Too bad you'd have to squeeze in white for Crystalline, at which point you might as well throw in red and make 5 color SliverJank.
Why? You're already running two ways to get positive benefits out of your opponent's removal (either life gain or saving the sliver). Crystalline seems like it would be overkill here.

Also, a build like this could make good use out of, say, the Dormant Sliver. When you're ready to go on the offensive, bounce / sacrifice it, then swing.

EDIT: I also thought I'd point out that the activation costs for the Goblin Legionnaire sliver are one colorless mana each.

[Pinder]

Also, a build like this could make good use out of, say, the Dormant Sliver. When you're ready to go on the offensive, bounce / sacrifice it, then swing.


Wow. That's a really good point. It would certainly give us that robust draw engine we've all been searching for. A draw engine that starts on turn 4 I suppose, but you could always run Gemhide Sliver. And while all of your slivers are sitting around not attacking, you might as well drop a Shrieking Sliver to mill your opponent at the end of every one of their turns. And because you have a way to save your important slivers and sac the rest for life, the GB would give you access to Pernicious Deed. And while we're milling and board sweeping all the time, we might as well run everyone's favorite mini-cranial, Extirpate.

And wow, Hibernation + Dormant + Shrieking (or maybe Mindlash) = U, pay 2 life: Draw a Card (and then probably sac for 3 life). How sexy is that?

And while we're in the business of saccing a ton of slivers anyway, you could always use Gemhide to power out, say, a Living Death, sac all of your slivers for savage lifegain, then wipe the board and get all your stuff back. Which I believe would let you draw a shit-ton (that's a technical term) of cards off of Dormant Sliver.

UGB Sliving Death Combo anyone?

EDIT: Of course, this deck is staying UWg, so you'd have to start another thread for that :tongue:.

[Volt]

I'm not advocating a UBG build, but... Just for grins, here's what it might look like:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Islands
1 Swamp

4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Dark Heart Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Counterspell
2 Putrefy

[Pinder]

What, no Dormant Sliver/ Living Death goodness? Off the top of my head, I was invisioning something more like this:

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island

//Creatures
4 Deark Heart Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Shreiking Sliver
4 Gemhide Sliver
3 Dormant Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
3 Crypt Sliver


//Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Extirpate
4 Duress
2 Living Death


...or not. It could use some work :tongue:.

[CrunchBite]

Screeching Sliver + Extirpate = tech~

[Maverick676]

When will the retarded ideas end?

[xsockmonkeyx]

When will the retarded ideas end?

The very moment you take off your asshat, my negative friend.

[Pinder]

I think (well, I hope) that Mav was being sarcastic, much as myself and Volt (again I hope) were with those lists. And if you think that asshat looks bad, you should see him in a Hawaiian shirt :tongue:.

EDIT: So, as a mental exercise, I figured that now we know what all of the slivers do, we could match art to abilities. So far, we don't have art for:

Cautery Sliver
Dark Heart Sliver
Frenetic Sliver
Necrotic Sliver

And we have 2 pieces of art, located here (Pic 1) (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/planarchaos/creative1_1zishvr0zxnq52p8.jpg) and here (Pic 2) (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/planarchaos/PLCBooster2.jpg).

My best guess would be that Pic 1 is Necrotic Sliver, and that Pic 2 is Deark Heart Sliver. What do you think?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Well, to Mav's credit the new slivers kind of suck ass except for Dark Heart(which doesnt count).

I think Pic #2(the pack) has to be dark heart sliver. I dont know what about pic number 1 though. It looks neither necrotic, cauteric nor frenetic. Though if I have to pick one I say necrotic.

[CrunchBite]

There's a post somewhere in the MTGS rumor mill that confirms Dark Heart is the one on the pack, though I'm too lazy to go dig it up. The Yawgmoth Sliver must be Necrotic, but the cool art isn't nearly the cool card I was hoping it would be :( The Yawg mask isn't really part of the Sliver in the picture (just part of the wrekage) so it's probably just a throw back to Vindicate which was originally in Apocolypse (expansion symbol is the mask). Just a guess though.

Edit: Frenetic Sliver art here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39358&d=1169230817) courtsy of MTGS again. Doesn't give flying like was thought but it is a 2/2 instead of a 1/1. Woop de doo.

[Volt]

Also I wanted to pose a question in regards to the creature base, Is plated sliver really worth running anymore? In almost every matchup Sinew sliver is strictly better. This deck really doesn't need a one drop creature since nothing should come down before crystaline sliver and you should be spending your first couple of turns playing cantrips and countering things. Granted plated is good against goblins, but without it we have 11 answers (FOW,Swords,Stifle) for lackey on the draw, and basically the whole deck answers lackey on the play.

After a week of playtesting, I'm 99% sure that removing Plated Sliver from the maindeck is a bad idea. Almost every matchup is hurt by not having a solid one-drop creature, including the big three: Goblins, Threshold, Solidarity. I would recommend keeping them in the deck. Has anybody had a different experience?

My latest list:

// land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains

// creatures
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

// instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell

// sorceries
4 Serum Visions

[Morte]

Nice...
Planar Chaos saved the best for last!

Dark Heart Sliver
GB, 2/2
All Slivers have "Sacrifice this creature: Gain 3 Life"

Not bad...

Cautery Sliver
RW, 2/2
All Slivers have "1, Sacrifice this creature: This creature deals 1 damage to target creature or player."
All Slivers have "1, Sacrifice this creature: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to target Sliver or player this turn."

Cool!

And now, ladies and gentlemen...

Necrotic Sliver
WB1, 2/2
Each sliver has "3, sacrifice this creature: Destroy target permanent."

Every sliver an instant speed Vindicate... CounterSliver is going UWB? :laugh:

[Pinder]

Nice...
Planar Chaos saved the best for last!

Dark Heart Sliver
GB, 2/2
All Slivers have "Sacrifice this creature: Gain 3 Life"

Not bad...

Cautery Sliver
RW, 2/2
All Slivers have "1, Sacrifice this creature: This creature deals 1 damage to target creature or player."
All Slivers have "1, Sacrifice this creature: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to target Sliver or player this turn."

Cool!

And now, ladies and gentlemen...

Necrotic Sliver
WB1, 2/2
Each sliver has "3, sacrifice this creature: Destroy target permanent."

Every sliver an instant speed Vindicate... CounterSliver is going UWB? :laugh:

Yeah, we know. No, they didn't make the cut, and no, we're not changing colors. This list is UWg, and it's staying that way.

And as for Volt's comments, I also concur that taking Plated out of the main is probably a bad idea. We could probably move Talon to the board in favor of Sinew.

7 Muscle/Sinew, though? Has that been working nicely or do you think it's a bit of overkill?

[Volt]

7 Muscle/Sinew, though? Has that been working nicely or do you think it's a bit of overkill?

You can never have too many muscles. This I discovered in the last week, also.

You'll note that I cut Winged Sliver #3 to make room for the 7th Muscle. I would advise moving that Winged to the sideboard, so you can bring it in for the matchups where it's especially good (Goblins being one of them).

[Pinder]

I know that it's hard to find a definite answer to this, as it's largely metagame dependent, but for the general meta, what do you think our sideboard should look like? I was thinking something along the lines of:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
2 Hydroblast/BEB (No Goblins in the meta? Could be something else)
2 Talon Sliver
2 Worship
1 Winged Sliver

This is, of course, going off of the list that Volt posted last (post PC, with the 7 Muscle/Sinew).

That was off the top of my head, but with Talon and another Winged in the board, it's getting hard to fit other things in. We might be able to find something better than Hydroblast, as our matchup with Gobs is already pretty good. Perhaps something to help with the combo matchup? Engineered Explosives, maybe?

[Bardo]

I'm a little confused here. Hibernation Sliver has been the nutz for me and many others. Yet, I don't see much in the way of that fellow on these pages...

[Pinder]

Well, it's mostly because the deck isn't black, and the mana base can't support a 4th color splash.

You could make an argument for cutting green and moving to UWb, replacing Muscle with Sinew and Harmonic with Hibernation, I suppose. Of course, you'd probably want more Hibernation than just 2 that way.

Still though, I'm not really sure that the deck would improve much by cutting green for black. All that would really change is 5-6 slivers. All of the spells are still blue and white, so you could run them in either.

So the question there, I guess, is whether Harmonic or Hibernation is more useful?

[Hanni]

UWgb 4c Slivers

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (19)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
1 Eladamri's Call
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

I don't really think the manabase is that bad, since your only splashing black for 2 cards in the MD and you run 8 fetchlands. Sinew Sliver allows you to run 2 extra Muscle Slivers... why not run 2 extra Crystalline Slivers? It gives you 2 maindeck sources of protection against board control (mass removal), and an overall increased count of your most important Sliver - Crystalline Sliver. Your most important colors are U/W and those aren't jeopardized... I'm splashing green for 2 Muscle Sliver, 1 Harmonic Sliver, 2 Eladmri's Call. I splash black for 2 Hibernation Sliver. That's not really weakening the manabase against Goblins that bad... just don't fetch black if you don't need it. I don't think the deck needs a basic Forest, mainly since you are no longer dependant on green (Sinew Sliver) and you can't grab it with the blue fetchlands. 1 Island 1 Plains should be more than enough to cast the bulk of your important cards. I went up to 18 lands to make the manabase stronger against Goblins.

6/6 Crystalline/Muscle seems very strong and the 2 Eladamri's Call makes that even stronger. The deck is more focused this way. I don't think Slivers needs more cantrip beyond 4/4 Brainstorm/Visions... the 2 Eladmri's Call fits the bill perfectly. It's like a 2cc cantrip, which isn't too bad considering your running 8 1cc cantrip (think Predict for a second cc-wise), and it's a tutor. The deck doesn't really need a card draw engine, since it has so much virtual card advantage built into the creature base.

I realize you guys like 4 Stifles but I think 3 should be fine MD with another in the SB if you needed it there. 4 Plated Sliver/4 StP/4 FoW/ 3 Stifle seems like more than enough answers to a 1st turn Lackey. I don't think you need Counterspell in here... I think it's worse here than in Thresh. You're typically going to be tapping most of your mana sources to play creatures and you're not going to want to leave UU open often. Crystalline/Hibernation Sliver will give you the Counterspell-like protection you want anyway but Daze will allow you to answer things when your tapped out. It still provides protection on your Islands against things like Sinkhole.

I don't think the deck needs more than 1 Winged Sliver maindeck. Flying is a nice ability but isn't necessary all the time, with multiple Winged's in play providing no additional stat modifiers. 2 Eladmri's Call gives you 3 anyway. Against Goblins, you don't need to fly overhead to win. If you have 4 4/4's in play, you shouldn't need Flying.

Most decks don't run Disenchant maindeck. I think with 1 Harmonic Sliver and 2 Eladamri's Call, you should be fine MD. You can run 1-2 in the SB if necessary. Harmonic Sliver is subpar as a 3cc 1/1 if you don't need it's ability.

[xsockmonkeyx]

So the question there, I guess, is whether Harmonic + Muscles 5-7,8 or Hibernation + black hate in the board is more useful?

Fixed:wink:

[Patoon]

Has anyone created a thread for the UWb version of this deck. I think this would be a valid direction for someone to take this deck, something similar to UWb fish deck.

[Hanni]

Has anyone created a thread for the UWb version of this deck. I think this would be a valid direction for someone to take this deck, something similar to UWb fish deck.

There is a thread of UWb Slivers on TMD but I don't believe one was started on The Source. However, I am in personal belief that UWgb is the strongest CounterSliver splash among the various possible splashes.

[Pinder]

There is a thread of UWb Slivers on TMD but I don't believe one was started on The Source. However, I am in personal belief that UWgb is the strongest CounterSliver splash among the various possible splashes.

Well, since green and black are both splash colors, and we have access to Sinew now, you might be right about that. It would require some changes to the deck (Call would probably leave, and maybe Harmonic), and our manabase would be weaker, but it might be workable. I think that we need to rethink our stance on 4 color in light of new developments (well, Sinew), and we can't default to the '4 colors? Impossible!' stance we've clung to for so long.

Strictly speaking, if our only green spell is Muscle (and we have a Muscle that isn't green for the early game), and our only black spell is Hibernation (name one other good black Sliver), then we wouldn't really be stressing our manabase too hard. It could look something like this:

//Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains


I'd still make sure we have 4 Tundras (as well as the basic Islands and Plains) Because UW is still our strongest colors, but ditching the basic forest and a Tropical to add 2 Underground seas doesn't seem like it would be that much of a stretch. Our spells could remain essentially the same, and the creatures could look like this:

//Creatures (19)
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
3 Plated Sliver

Unfortunately we would lose Harmonic and Talon, but I think that the added redundancy from 7 Muscle and 6 'Crystalline' could make up for it (well, the loss of Talon anyway. We could probably still fit in 1 Harmonic MD if we wanted to).

EDIT: Just to let you know, I'm being overcautious here. I cut everything green except for Muscle so that we could only have 2 spells that are splashed, but if it turns out that we can still consistently get green, Calls and Harmonic could definitely go back in.

[Patoon]

What about adding black spells, i feel that cabal therapy (or duress) could be advantageous MD here is the list i am toying with

4 x Plated Sliver
4 x Sinew Sliver
4 x Crystalline Sliver
2 x Talon Sliver
2 x Winged Sliver
2 x Hibernation Sliver

4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
4 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Serum Visions
4 x Stifle

4 x Flooded Strand
3 x Polluted Delta
4 x Tundra
3 x Underground Sea
2 x Island
1 x Plains
1 x Swamp

[Hanni]

I've been testing the UWgb list I posted for the last few days and I have to say that I am very impressed. I have been running only 2 Muscle Sliver instead of 3 but I've also been running 2 Calls and 1 Harmonic. After playtesting, I think I'm gonna cut the Calls down to 1 to fit in another Muscle Sliver.

Even with 3 Muscle Sliver, 1 Harmonic Sliver, and 1 Eladamri's Call, the manabase isn't strained that bad. Black is only splashed for 2 MD Hibernation Slivers, which really isn't a problem to cast with 8 fetchlands. Your only splashing green for 5 spells, which still isn't straining the manabase. 5 green spells and 2 black spells makes for a very light splash of non-UW spells.

If I run 1 less Call, I'll probably want to fit 2 Harmonic Slivers and 2 Winged Slivers in the sideboard. I don't even think Talon Sliver is necessary anymore. I also haven't found myself wanting Winged Sliver often... and the matchup where I do want to see it tends to be Goblins (since they have a ton of chump blockers). The only other deck where I might want Winged Slivers would be against Faerie Stompy, where I think Harmonic Sliver would simply be stronger. It may be argued that Winged would be good against something like Threshold... but honestly, I'd rather play another Muscle Sliver instead and just outsize them. In fact, I think Extirpirate is stronger against Threshold than Winged Sliver is. I also wouldn't run any less than 4 Plated Slivers because not only do they round out the manacurve very well, they are amazing against Lackey and the toughness increaser is great overall.

I'll edit the list I presented in my above post to have 7 Muscle Slivers and 1 Eladamri's Call.

As far as a sideboard goes, this is what I threw together for now:

Sideboard (15)
1 Winged Sliver
3 Extirpirate
3 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
2 Hibernation Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

I know that Engineered Plague might be hard to play against Goblins with black being a light splash and I'm not quite sure how necessary it is. They may get dropped. Winged Sliver seems to be strong against Goblins so I'll probably end up dropping Plagues for another Winged Sliver if that's the case.

Extirpirate is very strong against Threshold since it removes their Mongooses or Werebears from the game entirely once you kill one... and their low threat density makes Extirpirate strong. However, it's much more versatile than Crypt. It's good against Loam and it's good against combo. To me, it's basically like a blend of Duress and Crypt sorta.

Meddling Mage is another anti-combo tool and Hibernation Sliver is strong against board control. Harmonic answers randomness like Faerie Stompy and Angel Stompy.

Is Engineered Plague even necessary?

[Pinder]

I don't think E.Plague is strictly neccessary. Our matchup is generally favorable against Gobs anyway, and it doesn't really help anywhere else. Plus, it's not really all that synergystic with 1 or 2 MD Harmonics either. We originally started running Harmonic to get rid of Plague. I think that they could just as easily be Talon Slivers, as both E.Plague and Talon both only affect the Goblins matchup much, and Talon is another warm, slivery body that's in our main colors, and happens to absolutely bend over Goblins.

As far as Extirpate goes, I was worried about them being boarded against us, but if we're splashing black, it could be one hell of a board option. I'd probably run them over Stifle G2 against Thresh, because it will be much more devastating after you kill a Mongoose or something. And Extirpating a fetchland after they've used it is almost as good as Stifling one when they do.

[xsockmonkeyx]

As far as Extirpate goes, I was worried about them being boarded against us, but if we're splashing black, it could be one hell of a board option. I'd probably run them over Stifle G2 against Thresh, because it will be much more devastating after you kill a Mongoose or something.

Hmmm. How are you going to kill the mongoose unless your opponant walks right into your slivers? Counters are probably the only thing that will put the goose in the yard.

[Hanni]

Your right, I don't think Engineered Plague is necessary and I also forgot about it's anti-synergy with Harmonic Sliver. I also don't think Talon Sliver is good against Goblins... the only thing it does there is allow Slivers to block Piledriver and live. Otherwise, simply dropping another Muscle Sliver will outsize them anyway. The problem I had with Goblins was not being able to alpha strike... my opponent played 3 SCG's and 4 Goblin Matron's, giving him what seemed like infinite chump blockers. I think Winged Sliver is the correct Sliver for the matchup... simply play defense, build up Slivers, and drop a Winged Sliver FTW.

I also played against TES Storm Combo and I didn't like Extirpate. Maybe it was because of the fact that he had Xantid Swarm, Defense Grid, and too many win conditions. Extirpate is something I really want to get more testing with against combo. It does put a nice whoopin on Loam-based decks though.

-3 Engineered Plague
-1 Extirpate
+1 Winged Sliver
+3 Duress

This is what my current board looks like at the moment:

Sideboard (15)
2 Winged Sliver
3 Duress
2 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
2 Hibernation Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

I kinda wanted to add a Stifle to the sideboard too to bring in against Goblins. Winged Sliver is all I bring in against Goblins right now and I think Stifle would be good also. The Goblins matchup seems extremely strong. All aggro matchups seem extremely strong. The deck is playing mid-range aggro with Zoo-like casting costs and they can't be killed... Slivers don't die! This deck is strong against the aggro-control mirrors... the deck creates so much more virtual card advantage, with countermagic matching countermagic. The combo matchup is strong with countermagic, Duress, and Meddling Mage (and possible Extirpate). The control matchup is strong with Hibernation Sliver. I really don't see what this deck loses to besides possibly land destruction aka B/w Deadguy or possibly Chalice for 2 aka Faerie Stompy, and there are ways to deal with both of those. UWgb Slivers is nuts and I think I'm gonna run it at GP Columbus. I wasn't a big UWg Sliver fan before but the release of Sinew Sliver makes 4c Slivers so strong.

[BeeblesofLife]

Instead of trying to add spells, wouldn't it be better to work on and already bad mana base that is less vunerable to wasteland? 4colors may be cool and all but the deck would be better with just a plain UW OR the UWg build that you already have. This decks main weakness is its mana base and its strength is tempo...Haveing your lands sent to the yard is anti-tempo for you...
Just a thought from a person who has played against the deck at Lake Forest Park.

[Maverick676]

I wasn't a big UWg Sliver fan before but the release of Sinew Sliver makes 4c Slivers so strong.

I'm confused how exactly does sinew sliver justify 4 colors? Having played against goblins about a billion times I don't know how you can even manage to cast your spells in a relevant amount of time before being run over, with a mana base that unstable.

[Hanni]

I'm confused how exactly does sinew sliver justify 4 colors?

Because it pulls away from your dependance on green... you no longer need green to cast your most important/second most important Sliver. It helps put more dependance on UW, which are the decks main colors to begin with. The UW manabase isn't weakened. Now your splashing for less green, or dependance on green, where you can now splash black for 2 (two) maindeck spells which enhance your game against board control... a matchup that raped this deck in the ass. Against everything else, you're gaining 2 extra Crystalline Slivers that allow you to stack block like Talon Sliver. You get black disruption to further battle combo (Duress, Extirpate to an extent) and more Hibernation Slivers for board control matchups. Most of the decks where you actually want a black producing land (with Extirpate for Loam being an exception), you won't be facing LD.


Having played against goblins about a billion times I don't know how you can even manage to cast your spells in a relevant amount of time before being run over, with a mana base that unstable.

Having played against Goblins a handful of times in the past few days, I haven't found the difference between 3c and 4c to be that relevant. I don't sideboard in any black spells and the deck doesn't need Hibernation Sliver (Crystalline handles that here). Simply put, if you don't need to, don't fetch black. There's only 2 black lands in the deck, sans the fetchlands, that produce black. You shouldn't get screwed often enough, especially with the cantrip, for this to be a problem. You have your basic Island and basic Plains still, which will cast most of your spells if your fearing Wasteland. Beyond that, fetch a Tropical Island to drop a Muscle Sliver and if it does get Wasted (and you don't have a Stifle or you're not worried about it), then just move on. You already smash Goblins, you already have a stable UW manabase, and you have Stifle. Now that the deck has 7 Muscle Slivers the matchup is extremely favorable... even with 4c, you should still smash Goblins.


This decks main weakness is its mana base and its strength is tempo

Well considering that your Slivers still only cost 1cc-2cc each (with Harmonic as the exception), I don't really see how your taking a huge loss in tempo, especially when the countermagic is free. Yes, it will set you back a land drop. Does Slivers need to cast 4cc spells? Not really.

This deck has gone through a few days of straight testing, where my manabase has been stretched by Loam-LD, Goblins, and other LD style decks. I have yet to really see a problem. Port/Wasteland isn't a big deal for me but if I start getting wrecked by B/w Deadguy or B/r Sui, I'll board some Misdirections.

Regardless, if no one on this thread thinks UWgb 4c Slivers is any good, I'll simply start another thread if you want. I'm fully convinced that UWgb Slivers IS that good, so much so that I'm probably going to play it at GP Columbus instead of my own UWb Fish.

[diffy]

I started playing this deck too and I must say that I like it... it's like Fish but with Slivers instead of invitational cards... I really like your list Hanni, but what do you think of this list from Mathieu Durand (Toad/Toadimon) ?:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Æther Vial

1 Winged Sliver
2 Dark Confidant
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
4 Sinew Sliver

2 Counterspell
3 Daze
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

SB: 3 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 4 Plated Sliver
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 1 Winged Sliver
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Muscle Sliver
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares

Keep on working on the deck... to quote Pink Floyd: this could be made into a monster :P

[BeeblesofLife]

Hanni, I wasnt saying your deck was bad. I couldnt really say much edge wise, seeing as how a) I havent piloted the deck b) I havent Played the deck on mws.
I was just putting in my view point. If it works, it works. I was just questioning the point of a 4 color. Has anyone thought up a list fr UBW yet?

[Volt]

Hanni, I wasnt saying your deck was bad. I couldnt really say much edge wise, seeing as how a) I havent piloted the deck b) I havent Played the deck on mws.
I was just putting in my view point. If it works, it works. I was just questioning the point of a 4 color. Has anyone thought up a list fr UBW yet?

The problem with UBW is that you don't get to play 8 muscle slivers, which clearly everyone wants to do. And rightly so.

As I've stated before, I'm resistant to the idea of adding black to the deck because I think it adds fragility to the mana base for little benefit. With UWgb, you need to get out 3 lands to have access to all the colors. And they need to be the right 3 lands! With UWg, you only need Trop + Tundra, and you can cast every spell in your deck.

The main reasons to run Hibernation Sliver are for the "block and bounce" and "bounce and Force" tricks. Both are nifty tricks. However, how often do we need to "block and bounce" when we are running 4 Plated Slivers + 8 Muscle Slivers? Our guys are almost always bigger and therefore survive combat against pretty much everything except runaway Piledrivers (which can't be blocked by a Hibernation Sliver, btw). As for the "bounce and Force" trick... I run 26 or so blue spells in my build, so finding FoW food is very rarely a problem.

Other topics...

Once again, I will state that I do not like Daze in this deck. It's effective in the first few turns of the game, but you don't want to be killing your tempo by picking up your first land. Picking up our early lands is worse for us than it is for Thresh. To compound things, Daze essentially becomes little more than FoW food after the first few turns of the game. Many early-game problems that slip through the cracks can be mopped up by Harmonic Sliver.

Meddling Mage is amazing against combo, but so-so against everything else. It belongs in the sideboard. We would rather run more slivers in the maindeck. This isn't Thresh where you're like "Well, the list of candidate creatures for this deck is very short so I might as well run Meddling Mage maindeck because what else am I going to put in those slots?"

Winged Sliver is *very important* in the Goblins matchup, and pretty good in several other matchups as well. Either run 2-3 of them maindeck, or don't run them at all. Running 1 Winged Sliver is just plain silly, especially if you're not even running any tutors or cantrips beyond Brainstorm.

Toad's build smacks of "I really wanted to play 70 cards, but I know I'd get laughed at, so I'm going to randomly cut some cards and cram them into the sideboard." It may play pretty well, but I promise you the main strengths of the deck are the Crystalline Slivers and Muscle/Sinew Slivers backed up by counter-magic, just like with any other counter-sliver deck. Frankly, I *strongly* question how well his build does against Goblins, with no Plated Slivers, no Stifles, 1 Winged, and only 3 StP. I don't want to hear theoretical statements like "I beat goblins with Hibernation Sliver," (as he once said to me) either. I would like to hear some actual playtesting results.

To me, the biggest selling point of CounterSliver should be how well it plays against Goblins, because that is what sets it apart from other blue-based aggro-control decks. Start by making the deck strong against Goblins, and go from there. As it turns out, you can do that, and still have pretty good matchups against Thresh, Combo, and most of the Tier 2 decks.

[outsideangel]

Hanni, I wasnt saying your deck was bad. I couldnt really say much edge wise, seeing as how a) I havent piloted the deck b) I havent Played the deck on mws.
I was just putting in my view point. If it works, it works. I was just questioning the point of a 4 color. Has anyone thought up a list fr UBW yet?

Yes, we've been working on a UWb slivers list for a bit, since the vindicate sliver was announced. It looks like:

//Land (18)
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

//Creatures (19)
3 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Vindicate-on-legs Sliver

//Spells (23)
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy/Duress/Counterspell
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle/Cabal Therapy/Duress

Sideboard can contain E. Plague, Talon Sliver, Disenchant/Aura of Silence/Serenity, Meddling Mage, and some discard.

I really like this list...vs. the previous Ugw version, it loses basically nothing, while shoring up the deck's weakness to board control via. Hibernation Sliver, and offering some powerful sideboard options. The only thing it misses is Talon Sliver maindeck, but the Vindicate sliver and Hibernation sliver and the extra Plated Sliver make up for it in the Goblins/Thresh matchups so they're still about the same. Of course, post-board you get the bomby E. Plague vs. Goblins, so games two and three that matchup is actually better, I think.

[diffy]

@Volt

I think that black gives more than just Hibernation tricks... it allows one to run some excelltent Sb Material too: Duress and Extirpate (hype!!) are all very good against combo which I find this deck having dificulties against.

@All

What do you think of Aether Vial in this deck? As most creatures only cost 2 (except 4) wouldn't it be an option to run -1 land -3 XXX and +4 Vials? In theory they do sound great... so are they HOT or NOT ?

Just food for thought:

VialSliver

4x Sinew
4x Muscle
4x Plated
1x Winged
4x Cristaline

1x Eladamri's Call
3x Swords to Plowshaers

3x Daze
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle

4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions

4x Aether Vial
1x Plains
1x Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Windswepth Heath
3x Tundra
2x Tropical Island

SB:
4x M&M
3x Worship
2x Talon
2x Harmonic
1x Stifle
1x Swords to Plowshaers
2x RANDOM CARD

Thanks for your replies

[BeeblesofLife]

Hot not!
Aether vile is more for a pure aggro deck than it is for aggro control.
Sure it may help out with the decks mana problem but it also makes it more suseptable to pithing needle.

[Pinder]

What do you think of Aether Vial in this deck? ... so are they HOT or NOT ?


Most decidedly not.

Or at least, they weren't. If we move to four colors, they might help smooth out our color dependencies, and we've slowly been increasing the sliver count ever since PC was released (the 4c build I'm testing right now runs 20 of them). My original problem with Aether Vial in this deck is that there weren't really enough creatures to make it useful. This was back when we were running, what, 16-17 Slivers? We could always take yet another look, I suppose.

But I'm not really optimistic.

As for going 4c at all, I've found that with just 2 Seas maindeck, it doesn't really hurt you that bad to splash black for only Hibernation. However, I haven't really found Hibernation to be as 'nutz' as everyone around us seems to be claiming. In terms of stopping removal, it is simply not equal to Crystalline Sliver. It's not so much the lifeloss that I mind, but the tempo lost from having to bounce slivers in response to removal is a real sink. We want to stop their removal, not turn it into Boomerang.

On the plus side, though, there are quite a few uses to Hibernation which should be addressed:

-You can stack damage, then bounce to win combat you really shouldn't (I believe this technique is called 'block kill opponent creature' :tongue:, and was already addressed)
-Emergency bounce for FoW food (this was already addressed as well).
-You can bounce as Sliver during combat and replay it at the end of your turn, giving your beat sticks a sort of 'pseudo-vigilance'.
-You can pay (an admittedly rather exorbitant amount of) life to save key slivers from mass removal.

Really, the last two are the most important ones for me. Being able to alpha strike in the air via Winged, then pay some life to be able to still leave gigantic blockers is quite a boon.

And when someone Wraths, and you have 3-4 creatures in hand afterward, it really helps with recovery. It might even be worth all the life loss :wink: (I should note also that this is a situation where a couple of Aether Vials on the table would actually be useful).

So, in summary, splashing black doesn't really hurt our manabase as much as we might think it does. But is it worth it to hurt our manabase at all for 2 measly slivers?

Only testing will tell.

[BeeblesofLife]

Thanks Hammer for the follow up and kill on the vile.
But i think your arguement on hibernation sliver is null, due to the fact you gave them more reason to use it than anything.

[Pinder]

But i think your arguement on hibernation sliver is null, due to the fact you gave them more reason to use it than anything.

I wasn't arguing against Hibernation, I was just pointing out pros and cons. If it's good enough for the deck, it can go in. If it's not, it won't. I'm going to refuse or accept Hibernation on its merits (or lack thereof) alone, without any preconceptions. And the only way to do that is to test.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yes, we've been working on a UWb slivers list for a bit, since the vindicate sliver was announced. It looks like:

//Land (18)
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

//Creatures (19)
3 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Vindicate-on-legs Sliver

//Spells (23)
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy/Duress/Counterspell
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle/Cabal Therapy/Duress

Sideboard can contain E. Plague, Talon Sliver, Disenchant/Aura of Silence/Serenity, Meddling Mage, and some discard.

I really like this list...vs. the previous Ugw version, it loses basically nothing, while shoring up the deck's weakness to board control via. Hibernation Sliver, and offering some powerful sideboard options. The only thing it misses is Talon Sliver maindeck, but the Vindicate sliver and Hibernation sliver and the extra Plated Sliver make up for it in the Goblins/Thresh matchups so they're still about the same. Of course, post-board you get the bomby E. Plague vs. Goblins, so games two and three that matchup is actually better, I think.
One thing I object to about running both Hibernation and the Vindicate sliver is the lack of synergy between the two of them. The whole point to running a sliver that grants a sacrifice ability to your guys is to allow you to deal with targeted removal or lethal blocks...it gives your slivers the ability to make a last hoorah, if you will. They block with lethal damage on the stack, you Vindicate a permanent with a sliver that was on the way out anyway. The new Goblin Legionnaire sliver might enable WGR slivers in this way...if I remember correctly from earlier in this thread, the main problem with that version was how painful targeted removal was. Cauterary Sliver (the WR one) basically says, "You waste some mana to give me an excuse to ping you." It also allows you to invest some mana and dudes post-attack to push through the last few points of lethal damage.

In other words, sacrifice slivers allow the deck to move out of blue by acting as pseudo-Crystalline Slivers. They provide a disincentive to killing your men in addition to providing you with some utility.

[Pinder]

I suppose, but I doubt 'Oh no! They might Vindicate something!' or 'Not 1 damage!' are legitimate enough reasons for people to not use removal against Slivers. 'Can't be targeted by your removal' is a definite disincentive for playing removal, but 'something vaguely bad might happen if I'm not tapped out' isn't really, IMHO.

I think that any deck without Crystalline (or along the same vein, Hibernation or some other way to save slivers, rather than saccing them) would likely be strictly Aggro, as it couldn't afford to sit on it's slivery haunches like this deck does. You'd just have to make up for the loss of one sliver with the fact that you're beating face with four others. Eventually you'll just flat out kill your opponent before they can wreck you with too much removal.

[CrunchBite]

The Vindicate Sliver is in my opinion, too expensive for this deck. Three open mana is a lot for this deck which only runs 10 or 11 mana-producing lands. Plus the deck already contains answers to everything targetable by Vindicate except for land (STP for critters, Harmonic for artifact/enchanment) and both do it more efficiently. As previously mentioned it is unsynergetic with Hibernation Sliver, and if you really need more removal you can run Vindicate itself.... but hey, the art is cool ;p

[outsideangel]

The Vindicate Sliver is in my opinion, too expensive for this deck. Three open mana is a lot for this deck which only runs 10 or 11 mana-producing lands. Plus the deck already contains answers to everything targetable by Vindicate except for land (STP for critters, Harmonic for artifact/enchanment) and both do it more efficiently. As previously mentioned it is unsynergetic with Hibernation Sliver, and if you really need more removal you can run Vindicate itself.... but hey, the art is cool ;p

The Vindicate Sliver is really just there to replace Harmonic as an answer to artifacts/enchantments. You'd never run black for Vindicate, you run black for Hibernation Sliver, which shores up a major weakness of the deck, and for the powerful sideboard options black offers. True, the Vindicate Sliver is a little more versatile for a higher mana cost, but you shouldn't need to be using him alot.

The Vindicate Sliver isn't there for you to sit around on three open mana so you can fling slivers that get killed. It's there because the deck wants a way to answer artifacts/enchantments, and because 4 colors is one too many.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Because [Sinew] pulls away from your dependance on green... you no longer need green to cast your most important/second most important Sliver. It helps put more dependance on UW, which are the decks main colors to begin with. The UW manabase isn't weakened. Now your splashing for less green, or dependance on green, where you can now splash black for 2 (two) maindeck spells which enhance your game against board control...

QFT. Additionally, If you are going to be playing more than 4 Muscle Slivers then you are making even more commitment to the board. Thus you are more vulnerable to board sweep and Hibernation Sliver becomes more relevant.

[Pinder]

But remember, just because we can go four color, doesn't mean we should. If Hibernation doesn't prove itself, rest assured I will be going right back to UWg.

Oh, and monkey, I like the quote from your sig. It's from essentially the best post ever (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=103556&postcount=6).

[xsockmonkeyx]

That goes without saying, no?

[CrunchBite]

The Vindicate Sliver is really just there to replace Harmonic as an answer to artifacts/enchantments. You'd never run black for Vindicate, you run black for Hibernation Sliver, which shores up a major weakness of the deck, and for the powerful sideboard options black offers. True, the Vindicate Sliver is a little more versatile for a higher mana cost, but you shouldn't need to be using him alot.

The Vindicate Sliver isn't there for you to sit around on three open mana so you can fling slivers that get killed. It's there because the deck wants a way to answer artifacts/enchantments, and because 4 colors is one too many.

Some valid enough points. 4c may indeed be too difficult, especially if your meta is wasteland heavy. In that case I see your point for running Vindicate Sliver in UWB. It still seems like the green is better then the black though. One thing I will say for the Vindicate Sliver over Harmonic (in either 3c or 4c) is he gets rid of the anti-synergy with running Harmonic and main deck enchantments like Worship and E.Plague.

[Finn]

I have a thought on the way this deck is going...

It seems to me that its closest relative is Threshold. It is one of several Threshold-esque decks running around these days. Theshold is in three (or four) colors because its creatures are Green while all the actual good cards are in other colors. Don't you think that Threshold would be playing two colors if it could? Consider the following:

1. The mana base would be easier to smooth out in two colors leaving room for something like Wasteland or Ancient Tomb or whatever.

2. If you guys are going to play three colors, it should be UWR for maximum exposure to the same cards Threshold wants to have - Lightning Bolt, STP, Fire//Ice, etc, not for more creatures.

Bottom line, the hard work for this deck is done. It was done with Threshold. Keep the U and W Slivers you already have and if you look to a third color it is only for the control elements that we all know.

[Pinder]

2. If you guys are going to play three colors, it should be UWR for maximum exposure to the same cards Threshold wants to have - Lightning Bolt, STP, Fire//Ice, etc, not for more creatures.

Bottom line, the hard work for this deck is done. It was done with Threshold. Keep the U and W Slivers you already have and if you look to a third color it is only for the control elements that we all know.

Actually, my first pick for a third color would still be green. Why? 8 Muscle Slivers. It's just that good.

[Hanni]

@ Finn

But Finn, this deck doesn't splash for nearly as much green as Threshold does (8-10 sources MD in Thresh vs 5 sources MD in Slivers) and doesn't splash for nearly as much black (in place of red or white) as Threshold does (4-8 sources MD in Thresh vs 2 sources MD in Slivers). Thusly, the deck isn't nearly as weak to LD as 4c Threshold is, even with all of their cantrip. In fact, you can play a 3c deck with a much more restrictive manabase based on splash (UWR Scepter for example wants to run Lightning Helix, Fire//Ice, Meddling Mage MD or SB, etc). Instead of arguing mana issues, has anyone actually ran 4c Slivers through a gauntlet of LD including Goblins? I have.

Why would this deck need the same cards as Threshold? I realize it's blue-based control with a very similar blue based package + StP but that's pretty much where the similarities end. Why would this deck need Fire//Ice or Lightning Bolt? The deck runs an increased threat density which can deal with threats by outsizing them and blocking them. The big reason UGw Thresh wants to add red in addition is to increase it's matchup against Goblins (which is put through checks and balances with its manabase)... a matchup which is already great for Slivers. Again, this deck isn't built on the same creature idea as Threshold. Why would this deck want more removal and less Slivers? Each Sliver increases in strength from every other Sliver on the table, not from filling the graveyard. The more Slivers you put into play, the stronger your creature base is.

The UW shell now is stronger than it was in the previous UWg due to less dependance on the green Muscle Sliver and instead of attempting to build a rock solid manabase, I decided to go with 1337 tech in the form of Hibernation Sliver. Board control is typically a hard/bad matchup for aggro/control and Hibernation Sliver ableviates that. Not only that, it gives you 2 more sources of Crystalline Sliver (which is probably the most important Sliver). You want to make sure your threats don't die; undying threats creates virtual card advantage. The reason Slivers can lack actual card draw is due to all the virtual card advantage that the Slivers themselves provide.

@ Everyone else

Take this list through a gauntlet of LD including Goblins and if your not impressed, don't run it. The deck is so sick though...

UWgb 4c Slivers

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (19)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
1 Eladamri's Call
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
2 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
2 Winged Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

If anyone wants to ask/discuss why I'm running Daze and not Counterspell, the manabase, only 1 Winged Sliver MD, only 3 Stifle, or whatever else, feel free to do so. My sideboard is still in the development process, as I've been changing it back and forth for now. I think the maindeck is pretty strong though.

[Volt]

Take this list through a gauntlet of LD including Goblins and if your not impressed, don't run it. The deck is so sick though...

UWgb 4c Slivers


Of course it's sick. What have we been talking about? However, it's not sick because you threw in a couple of black duals and a couple of Hibernation Slivers. UWg with 8 muscle slivers is plenty sick already.

I will once again concede that Hibernation Sliver is handy when going up against decks with mass removal. That is the only legitimate reason to start splashing black.

[Hanni]

As well as gaining Crystalline Sliver #6 against decks with tons of spot removal, where you want increased chances of seeing one. As well as using it as psuedo-first strike to stack block larger creatures (replacing Talon). As well as using it as psuedo-vigilance. What I am saying is, it is very versatile. The manabase is not wrecked going 4c. Before Planar Chaos, you had 4 Crystalline 4 Muscle. After Planar Chaos, you have 6-8 Crystalline and 6-8 Muscle Sliver. That's what I find sick.

[sammiel]

Having tested against Hanni the other day, I can say that Hibernation sliver is what wins matches that crystalline doesn't. Despite what should have been a favorable matchup for me, Hibernation won him games 1 and 3. I had spot removal, mass removal, and land destruction to attack his manabase, but hibernation made sure he didn't run out of threats.

[CrunchBite]

As well as gaining Crystalline Sliver #6 against decks with tons of spot removal, where you want increased chances of seeing one.

I always thought that's what Eladamri's Call was for. I gotta agree with Volt here, unless your meta has lots of board sweepers, splashing just for hibernation doesn't seem especially worthwhile. It makes some some nice combat tricks but with 7-8 muscle and 4 plated your slivers have pretty good survivability in combat anyway.

That said, there are other reasons to run black as well. Duress/Therapy and Extripate in the board vastly improve the matchup against most combo and some other decks.

I think I'll stick with UWg but mostly cause I don't wanna spring the cash for an Underground Sea or two :laugh:

[Volt]

As well as gaining Crystalline Sliver #6 against decks with tons of spot removal, where you want increased chances of seeing one. As well as using it as psuedo-first strike to stack block larger creatures (replacing Talon). As well as using it as psuedo-vigilance. What I am saying is, it is very versatile. The manabase is not wrecked going 4c. Before Planar Chaos, you had 4 Crystalline 4 Muscle. After Planar Chaos, you have 6-8 Crystalline and 6-8 Muscle Sliver. That's what I find sick.

Okay. Perhaps I am being overly obstinate. I'm going to give it a fair shake. I'm not going to run exactly the same list you're running, but I'm going to squeeze in a couple Hibernation Slivers and see how I like them.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline
2 Hibernation
4 Sinew
4 Muscle
2 Winged
4 Plated

4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell

[Hanni]

It's also kinda cool to bounce a blue Sliver to hand to pitch to FoW if you need to, however rare that situation may occur.

[BeeblesofLife]

Well Hanni, as much as i dont like the mana base...It seems as if you may have broken the deck and given it the boost it needed to become tier one. Congrats!

[Clark Kant]

Yes, Hibernation cleans up this deck only major weakness, board sweepers. But are those sweepers common enough to justify this change. Or might we be better off sideboarding a single Underground Sea and 2-3 Hibernation Slivers. I guess that answer is meta dependent.


4 Crystalline
2 Hibernation
4 Sinew
4 Muscle
2 Winged
4 Plated

I actually like this creature base more than Hanni's.

What I still disagree with you guys on is Stifle. I've tested this card a lot, as have others in Threshold. And people have always opted for Daze + Counterspell over it bc it's the better combination.

This deck has a different creaturebase than thresh sure, but it's not mechansistically that different. The only situation I could see Stifle being neceesary before is vs Deed and Disk, but Hiberantion changes this as well.

[Volt]

What I still disagree with you guys on is Stifle. I've tested this card a lot, as have others in Threshold. And people have always opted for Daze + Counterspell over it bc it's the better combination.

This deck has a different creaturebase than thresh sure, but it's not mechansistically that different. The only situation I could see Stifle being neceesary before is vs Deed and Disk, but Hiberantion changes this as well.


CounterSliver and Thresh are mechanistically quite different. Daze works well in Thresh because you can go turn 1, lay a land, play Nimble Mongoose, pass the turn, Daze something during your opponent's turn, and you're in good shape. You don't mind starting over with land drops on the 2nd turn, because the only 2-drop in your deck is Werebear, which you usually don't want to play until you have threshhold anyway. With CounterSliver, you really, really want to drop Crystalline Sliver on turn 2, or failing that, Muscle/Sinew Sliver. Picking up that first land to Daze something is almost never worth it. We can almost always deal with whatever our opponent plays in the first couple of turns by simply playing out slivers and making him worry about dealing with our threats. Also, I abhor having dead cards in my hand later in the game, and there's nothing worse than drawing a Daze late in the game when you're in a topdecking race with your opponent.

As far as Stifle goes, it has been in the deck since the beginning, and the only debate at this point is whether to run 3 or 4. It is very, very good against a wide variety of decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

Call me crazy, but against decks packing board sweepers, wouldn't you want to hold back at least one counterspell to stop your board from getting wrecked? Or am I not doing it right?

[Volt]

Call me crazy, but against decks packing board sweepers, wouldn't you want to hold back at least one counterspell to stop your board from getting wrecked? Or am I not doing it right?

Of course. That's why I run 3 Counterspells, and Hanni runs 2 Hibernation Slivers. Not to mention Force of Will.

If you're implying that Daze would be useful as protection from board-sweepers, it isn't, at least not if your opponent has any sense.

[Pinder]

I actually run 4 Counterspell MD. And as far as Stifle goes, it's good, but sometimes I do find it dead in my hand. However, it's not nearly as dead as Daze in the mid to late-game, and only slightly less useful in the early game. To be quite honest, I think the deck could run with either Stifle+Counterspell or Daze+Counterspell. If you want to use the latter, go ahead.


I think I'll stick with UWg but mostly cause I don't wanna spring the cash for an Underground Sea or two

Well, I do have Underground Seas :tongue:, and while I'm not completely sold on Hibernation, it also lets you bounce your Crystalline (I know, crazy right?) if you need to Swords one of your own dudes to gain life. And with how huge our dudes get, this can actually save you from dying.

I'll still need to do more testing, though.

[Hanni]

Daze doesn't necessarily need to be used on turn 1. I can't think of any problematic turn 1 drops beyond Lackey, which this deck has a ton of answers for. Daze is a bit less amazing on the draw, but it's still early game protection (turn 2+). Many decks curve out all the way up to turn 4, where Daze is still impressive, and I've had Daze work in the lategame before too because my opponent simply tapped out to play a few things (some decks have mana activation costs, etc and tend to curve out constantly). If none of that seems impressive, it's also a way to combat Sinkhole or Vindicate on a land, which seems to be one of the decks worst matchups (for the 4c version). It can be dead late game but Counterspell is dead early game so I guess it's really a matter of where you think you need countermagic the most. Both pitch to FoW at either stage of the game so that they are less dead and both can be cantripped back into the deck.

Let me explain it this way. Counterspell is good in Thresh because they have a low threat density which is also very low in cc. Thresh spends it's time playing cantrips and will occasionally drop a low cost threat, where leaving UU open is extremely easy. In Slivers, you are constantly curving out to drop creatures... turn 1 Plated, turn 2 Crystalline, turn 3 Muscle Sliver, so on and so forth. During this time period, you cannot support Counterspell... leaving UU open isn't possible. This is also the time period where your most vulnerable. Against Threshold specifically, you need Daze. If they FoW or Daze your turn 2 Crystalline Sliver, your going to be in a bad position. Daze secures the early game dominance, which is where you need to establish yourself. Once the game progresses to the mid-late game, you no longer need countermagic protection nearly as much... you will have Crystalline/Hibernation Sliver to provide virtual protection, Harmonic Sliver to provide virtual removal against problematic artifacts/enchantments, and your threats will typically outsize your opponent's. You still have FoW if you truly need it.

The way Counterspell was argued before was that this deck wants to go the late game and Counterspell was useful there. The deck now has up to 4 more Muscle Slivers which shortens the clock immensely, with the game not needing to be drawn out nearly as long.

I still run Stifle because, even though the Goblins matchup is good, it's not an autowin. Stopping Ringleader and Matron is extremely strong. It also gives more answers to a 1st turn Lackey. Maybe even more important than any of these points, it protects the landbase from Wasteland, regardless of what deck is playing it. It answers randomness that you simply can't answer with countermagic, like Decree of Justice. It also is a much larger tempo boost than Counterspell against things like Deed and Engineered Explosives, with the addition of being 1cc cheaper. Stifle works well in Legacy, there are many activated and triggered abilites that Stifle is good against. I prefer Daze/Stifle over Counterspell/Stifle and Counterspell/Daze.

At any rate, I'm not trying to question people's motives for running Counterspell and not Daze, I'm just explaining my reasoning for running FoW/Daze/Stifle. This deck has an even larger threat density than UWb Fish and I had already tested Counterspell in there and ended up with the 4/3/3 FoW/Daze/Stifle base. I've tested that base an assload of times and it's proven most effective for me so far. However, I won't push the move to my counterbase because it might just be something that suits my playstyle and not others.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I don't necessarily think it's important to come to a common agreement on the exact decklist. The deck itself, the shell of the deck, is already fine-tuned. The little details between 1 or 2 Winged Sliver maindeck, etc seems more like playstyle differences and possibly even metagame differences. As far as development goes, I'd like to see the deck go 4c with Hibernation Sliver. That's about the only thing I'm trying to push.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Well, I do have Underground Seas :tongue:, and while I'm not completely sold on Hibernation, it also lets you bounce your Crystalline (I know, crazy right?) if you need to Swords one of your own dudes to gain life. And with how huge our dudes get, this can actually save you from dying.

I'll still need to do more testing, though.


I believe that your fears are somewhat existential in nature. Hibernation Sliver allows you to do things that you couldnt do before. If you have to pay life to bounce and choose slivers to save then why wouldnt you make a prudent decision at the time? Of course you would try save your valuable slivers in the face of board sweep and of course you would pay an appropriate amount of life depending on your current position. Without Hibernation you dont have to make any of these decisions which makes things easy. Humans like things that are easy, no? Dont fall into that trap and give Hibernation at least a fair shake.

[Volt]

I believe that your fears are somewhat existential in nature. Hibernation Sliver allows you to do things that you couldnt do before. If you have to pay life to bounce and choose slivers to save then why wouldnt you make a prudent decision at the time? Of course you would try save your valuable slivers in the face of board sweep and of course you would pay an appropriate amount of life depending on your current position. Without Hibernation you dont have to make any of these decisions of course, which makes things easy. Humans like things that are easy, no? Dont fall into that trap and give Hibernation at least a fair shake.

Fair enough. However, on the flip side of that coin, I think some people are leaping to the conclusion that a black splash is somehow better and/or necessary without really giving the new UWg build a fair shake. As I indicated yesterday, I'm going to give Hibernation Sliver a fair shake. However, I already know from experience that it is difficult to consistently support 4 colors in a deck with only 18 lands. This debate reminds me a a bit of the old debate about UGWb Thresh (i.e. 'Bob Thresh') vs UGW Thresh. That debate is pretty much dead now. Guess who won?

I actually think there is some merit to Clark Kant's suggestion of running 1 Underground Sea, with Hibernation Sliver and other black cards in the sideboard.

[Hanni]

For those attempting to try the 4c list, run 1 Underground Sea and 1 Scrubland rather than 2 Underground Sea. This enables you to do Tropical Island -> Scrubland to get all 4 colors if you need to. It also gives you an extra white source, since the manabase is already predominantly blue (8 fetches to get the lone Island with Tundra's and Tropical Island's producing blue also).

This is the manabase I constructed and it seems to be doing well. It's might not be the best combination since I haven't tried anything else.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Including fetchlands, the deck has:
16 blue sources
13 white sources
11 green sources
10 black sources

I don't really want to go any lower with black since I also have black sideboard cards. I also don't want to drop a Tropical Island for another Tundra since the deck has a basic Plains and no basic Forest. However, going up to 14 white sources might be a good idea. I'll keep testing the manabase but it's been working well thus far.

[Pinder]

For those attempting to try the 4c list, run 1 Underground Sea and 1 Scrubland rather than 2 Underground Sea. This enables you to do Tropical Island -> Scrubland to get all 4 colors if you need to.

Good idea.


I would try and make room for two basic Islands in the manabase you listed above, though, because it's very nice to be able to fetch unwastelandable UU.