[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

[Volt]

Good idea.


I would try and make room for two basic Islands in the manabase you listed above, though, because it's very nice to be able to fetch unwastelandable UU.

Only if you're running Counterspell, which Hanni isn't.

[Pinder]

Oh, well in that case, Hanni, you should probably start running Counterspell, because it's great, and then make room for two basic Islands :tongue:.

[BeeblesofLife]

I really dont think counterspell is all that needed. Once you drop Crystaline and Hibernation the only thing that you need to counter is board sweepers. Which you should should A) Force it or B) bounce vital slivers back to your hand.
With the new mana base and playing creatures I think that you will have only one blue mana open at best during early to mid game....If it goes to late game there is something seriously wrong and you should have won already.

[Pinder]

Um, with 80% of our mana producing lands able to tap for U, I'm not sure why you think that in the mid game we won't have double blue available to us. And I, for one, would much rather hold UU open mid or late game than always make sure I have 2 cards in hand, one of which has to be blue, the other of which has to be a Force. True, mostly all we need to counter is mass removal, but Counterspell (being the hard counter that it is) does that very nicely. Daze does not, as it is so terribly easy to play around by the time your opponent has the mana for mass removal.

[BeeblesofLife]

The goal is to win without your opponent seeing alot of your deck there for, they will not know what to sb against you.

Second: Pinder with your luck and knack for scooping games that you have won.
IT IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU!

[xsockmonkeyx]

The goal is to win without your opponent seeing alot of your deck there for, they will not know what to sb against you.


I think it will be pretty obvious what deck you are playing if you win.

EDIT: I dont remember deleting my last post, WTF?

[Aggro_zombies]

Of course. That's why I run 3 Counterspells, and Hanni runs 2 Hibernation Slivers. Not to mention Force of Will.

If you're implying that Daze would be useful as protection from board-sweepers, it isn't, at least not if your opponent has any sense.
I wasn't implying anything about Daze. It just seems that Hibernation Sliver is unnecessarily redundant in this deck if you already have a way to deal with mass removal. True, Counterspell can't attack, but it also doesn't have a little skull symbol anywhere in its mana cost. Two to three colors seems good enough in a deck where most of your mana base says "Wasteland target" on it.

[BeeblesofLife]

Wow, did you even read what i posted?
Ok i said deck, If the person playing you doesnt know what you're playing...They are retarted...Well lets gather around kids and take a learning lesson from our good friend Sun Tzu, whos writings have all been developed into a book called "The Art of War". One of the strategies he states is to simply win without your opponent seeing your full force. And dont scoff at it Monkey...His writings date back to ancient China.
And Militaries around the world still read the book and take advice from it. So when it comes to basic strategy...look to that.

[Aggro_zombies]

Wow, did you even read what i posted?
I said CARDS not DECK, If the person playing doesnt know what you're playing...They are retarted...Well lets gather around kids and take a learning lesson from our good friend Sun Su, whos writings have all been developed into a book called "The Art of War". One of the strategies he states is to simply win without your opponent seeing your full force. And dont scoff at it Monkey...His writings date back to ancient China.
And Militaries around the world still read the book and take advice from it. So when it comes to basic strategie...look to that.
Yes, but it's pretty easy to extrapolate from what they saw in game one to guess more or less what your deck looks like. It's not like the format is overrun with a million different Sliver decks, after all. If it looks like Thresh and play similarly to Thresh, it probably makes some of the same card choices as Thresh. Proceed from there.

[BeeblesofLife]

I would hardly agree. A) THresh runs less creatures B) SLivers runs less counter magic and cantrips.
Slivers is more aggro than control...Though it still does count as aggro control.

What shuts off Thresh(gravyard hate) doesnt shut down slivers.
Both the decks have two very different strategies.

[Pinder]

I think it will be pretty obvious what deck you are playing if you win.

Yeah, and I'm fairly sure that when the first creature you drop is a Sliver, they'll catch on pretty quick.



Second: Pinder with your luck and knack for scooping games that you have won.
IT IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU!


Well, my luck in particular shouldn't factor into deckbuilding. That's why I haven't told everyone that my build secretly runs only 5 lands! :wink:

And I only scooped to you that one time when I clearly could have won because I felt sorry for you, and totally not because I'm an idiot :tongue:.

[BeeblesofLife]

Pinder I was 0-2....
Dont drop to Ookami's level for cheap come backs.

Anywho,
Back to my main issue...
Seeing as how slivers and thresh play differently.
Thats why i dont think running counter spell is a good choice.
Simply put, You run more creatures and dont have the room for it.
With hibernation sliver and cool combat tricks, counterspell is not needed nearly as much.

[sammiel]

Wow, did you even read what i posted?
Ok i said deck, If the person playing you doesnt know what you're playing...They are retarted...Well lets gather around kids and take a learning lesson from our good friend Sun Tzu, whos writings have all been developed into a book called "The Art of War". One of the strategies he states is to simply win without your opponent seeing your full force. And dont scoff at it Monkey...His writings date back to ancient China.
And Militaries around the world still read the book and take advice from it. So when it comes to basic strategy...look to that.



I don't think I've ever seen Sun Tzu misquoted so terribly. You are pedantically quibbling over petty nonsense, and I think that you should stop commenting in this thread.

As to what people sb against slivers, obviously you don't side your thresh hate, you side your goblins hate. plagues and or board sweepers.

I run 2-3 Tsabo's decree, along with MD board sweepers to buy me time to get there, and duress typically will protect my decree from countermagic in the sliver's matchup.

[BeeblesofLife]

Its called Paraphrasing Sammy.
Its not exact and it wasnt a quote...
I was just trying to get the general gist of it out there that is all...
I have the book in my hands right now if you want to have story time.

And you made my other point for me. so thanks.

[Pinder]

Sun Tzu still really doesn't apply here because Magic is fundementally different from actual war. If i"m playing a game and my opponent goes 'Mountain, Lackey, pass', I could with a 95% surety recite his exact decklist to you,and tell you exactly how I'm going to board against them. You can't really say that about war strategies.

It might have something to do with the fact that there aren't internet sites and forums where people sit around and discuss war strategies, and which ones they think are best and which ones they'll likely be taking to the next major war :wink:.

Even though this list isn't widely played, it's decently well known, and if you start dropping slivers, I'm sure your opponent could tell you, just by what are obvious includes, roughly 50% of your deck with no prior knowledge.

But yeah, this argument is pointless and isn't getting us anywhere. I believe the most recent topic of discussion was Stifle vs. Counterspell vs. Daze?

[CrunchBite]

You won't be countering any wraths or decrees or anything in game 2 with daze unless you didn't play it game one. If they see you play it game 1, it becomes a mostly dead card in game 2. And if you're not going to play it in game 1 just to surprise them, it's a dead card in game 1. Either way it's a dead card in a game after a few turns. Daze can be some nice tempo early game but that's all it is. This deck isn't as blazing fast as straight up aggro decks, so the midgame hard counter is far more valuable IMO.

[Aggro_zombies]

I would hardly agree. A) THresh runs less creatures B) SLivers runs less counter magic and cantrips.
Slivers is more aggro than control...Though it still does count as aggro control.
Exactly. Thresh and Slivers have similar play styles, in that they are both aggro control decks that attempt to beat down while keeping relevant threats off the board with countermagic. Competent opponents will realize this and play around it. Also, certain cards (like Xantid Swarm or Defense Grid) hose this deck's control elements just as well as they hose Thresh's.


What shuts off Thresh(gravyard hate) doesnt shut down slivers.
Both the decks have two very different strategies.
So the fact that these are two aggro-control decks running many of the same control elements doesn't make up for one deck losing to graveyard hate? Face it, the only major difference between this deck and Thresh is the choice of animals. Otherwise, the decks play very similarly, even though Countersliver doesn't specifically aim to fill its graveyard like Thresh does and therefore doesn't need as many cantrips.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Wow, did you even read what i posted?



Yes, I also read your reply and I found neither compelling. The only way this stuff is going to apply is if you get your ass handed to you before you drop a sliver and they think you might be playing thresh. And in that case you lose. If you win they are going to know you are playing Slivers, counters and cantrips. If you want to go into it any deeper than that then you have lost me.

[Kronicler]

While I don't post in this thread much (or at all...) I've been watching it since it has been in the open forum. Slivers have always been a favorite fun deck of mine, and I think that Planar Chaos gave this deck exactly what it wanted (that was within the realm of possibility, sliver ringleader anyone?) and needed to really become competetive.

In the argument of Daze vs. Counterspell: I've been a huge fan of daze for a long time, and never a big fan of counterspell, but for this deck my views seem to have reversed. The addition of Sinew Sliver pushed the deck slightly more to the aggro side of aggro-control, and because of this the deck does not want to stunt its growth by picking up its own lands. One of the major differences between CounterSliver and Thresh is your ideal number of lands in play. Thresh is happy with 1 or 2, while counter sliver would much rather have 3 (lay a sliver each turn with stifle mana open) or 4 (lay a sliver and have counterspell mana open, or lay 2 slivers). These two things have really pushed me to the counterspell camp this time.

Kronicler

P.S.: Pinder, what an amazing quote, check my sig to see the quote I'm talking about.

[Maverick676]

Why is daze vs. counterspell even being argued? Daze gains tempo in the early game, this deck does not need a ton of tempo. With the addition of sinew sliver this deck boasts the biggest creatures in the format (with the exception of a few that can be plowed i.e. mystic enforcer). What can stop this deck is mass removal, counterspell stops that nonsense dead. Honestly counterspell is better in just about every matchup, it can't be played around as easily as daze and it is just as useful turn 2 as it is turn 10. Whereas daze becomes useless starting around turn 3.

EDIT:

I like to point out a couple of obvious differences between this deck and thresh that make daze the right choice for one, and the wrong choice for the other. First off, thresh is a faster deck than counterslivers. Thresh's creatures have a much more efficient power to CC ratio than countersliver's creatures (at first obviosly slivers gets extremely effecient later). This means that thresh can commit only one or two threats to the board and win whereas counterslivers needs at least three, because of this thresh can play around mass removal much more easily. Given these facts, daze is the right call for thresh becuase of its ability to gain tempo and use it to win the game. Counterslivers on the other hand can seize tempo with stifle and daze but has no way to really take advantage of it becuase of the longer setup time for counterslivers.

[Clark Kant]

Here's the thing, Thresh actually has a significantly slower clock than this deck. Whereas Thresh doesn't even have creatures big enough to attack with till around Turn 3-4, and very few at that bc it spent most of that time playing cantrips, and even then creatures like Meddling Mage that you wouldn't want to attack with period if there's even one 2/1 on the field. By the time Thresh starts attacking, this deck can easily bring your opponent down to half their life.

If anything, Daze is relevant a good big larger percentage of this deck's average game than in Thresh. So why are you guys worry about how good it is in the late game. There shouldn't even be a late game and usually isn't if you're running FoW and Daze to protect your early threats.

Being able to protect your turn 2 Crystalline even without FoW is huge. Being able to protect your muscle sliver early on when you don't have a crystalline of FoW is huge. Just making your opponent wait an extra turn to do everything, to have a one sided Sphere of Resistence is huge. Daze in general makes sure your opponents life total falls very quickly.

I think the real debate is between Stifle and Counterspell. And I do think Counterspell wins that debate just because of it's increased versatitliy.

In most matchups, the only good Stifle targets are Fetchlands, which in the lategame is worse than Daze IMO. And in some matchups there aren't even many if any fetchlands to hit. Yes Stifle is gold against goblins, but I can't fathom why goblins would be such a hard matchup for you guys, seeing as how I do fine against it with Thresh running a lot fewer threats, and threats that are useless for anythng but trading with lackey for the first many turns, and threats that are generally smaller than these slivers are by turn 3-4.

[Maverick676]

Have you actually tested this deck? I have played both thresh and counterslivers for a long time, and I can assure you that thresh is faster. Unless your playing against a combo deck, then this deck can theoretically goldfish faster. But against the rest of the field ,i.e. aggro decks generally, you play the control role in almost all cases.

[Volt]

Doesn't anybody care about the opinions of people who have been developing and playing this deck for the last several months? We aren't speaking in theoretical terms. We are speaking from loads and loads of experience.

Daze is not very good in this deck. I have explained why on numerous occasions.

Stifle is great in this deck. It has been explained why on numerous occasions.

Counterspell is clunky for the first 3 or so turns. After that, it becomes very useful. That's not just the "late game." That's the "mid to late game."

[Clark Kant]

The day that Sinew Sliver was spoiled was also the day I first proxied up this deck and started playing it, a build with 8 muscle slivers and 4 Plated Slivers. Many of the early builds of this deck even after Sinew Sliver was revealed ran 6 Muscle Slivers 2-3 Plateds, or cut green entirely if I recall. I have no doubt that you guys are right about Daze in builds not running 12 pump slivers.

But running 12 Pump slivers does let all your creatures attack with impunity and this does make this deck a lot more aggressive than Thresh. I do think that's reason enough to dredge back up the Daze vs Stifle vs Counterspell debate.

Or perhaps the best solution is to run 2-3 of each and see which you find to be the most valuble. Afterall, all three cards work far better when your opponent is surprised by them, or spends time playing around them even when you don't have them in hand.


But against the rest of the field ,i.e. aggro decks generally, you play the control role in almost all cases.

I can't say I agree. The 12 pump sliver build of this deck plays the control role less than thresh does. Here, the threats are just about alway a tad bigger than other aggro decks, letting you attack without fear from turn 2 on. And the fact that this deck runs about 6 more creatures than Thresh is pretty big too. Many turns lets you attack with everything that can, while still having had a creature that you just cast to act as a blocker. In Thresh, it does take a few turns before you can start attacking without losing creatures, and even then Meddling Mage stays back, leaving you with only 10 aggressive creatures in the whole deck.

Edit: Sorry if that sounded crass. I was in a rush. I have nothing but respect for the people who made this deck what it is today. All I'm suggesting is that maybe, now that we do have 11-12 pump slivers, some of the previous foregone conclusions such as Eldarami's Call, Talon Sliver and Stifle over Daze should be reconsidered.

[Maverick676]

All I'm suggesting is that maybe, now that we do have 11-12 pump slivers, some of the previous foregone conclusions such as Eldarami's Call, Talon Sliver and Stifle over Daze should be reconsidered.

I would like to remind people that stifle is not run over daze. Counterspell is run over daze. Stifle is great in this deck whether it plays daze or counterspell, the card destroys goblins and ruins fetchlands plus has random other uses. If you're trying to play the aggro role with this deck you will need stifle against fetchlands to gain tempo, 3 daze just won't cut it.

[Volt]

I can't say I agree. The 12 pump sliver build of this deck plays the control role less than thresh does. Here, the threats are just about alway a tad bigger than other aggro decks, letting you attack without fear from turn 2 on. And the fact that this deck runs about 6 more creatures than Thresh is pretty big too. Many turns lets you attack with everything that can, while still having had a creature that you just cast to act as a blocker. In Thresh, it does take a few turns before you can start attacking without losing creatures, and even then Meddling Mage stays back, leaving you with only 10 aggressive creatures in the whole deck.


The version of Thresh with Mental Notes can potentially come at you very fast -- faster than slivers. It all depends on what kind of draw they get. If they get the "beatdown" draw, they can potentially be swinging at you for 6 points of damage on turn 3, 10 points of damage on turn 4, and 16 points of damage on turn 5.

The ability to run 8 muscle slivers makes this deck very consistent. However, it is still a bit slow compared to other aggro decks, and typically has to play defense for the first 2-4 turns. Sometimes you can't even effectively swing at your opponent until you draw a Winged Sliver, despite the fact that your critters may be bigger than his.

[Clark Kant]

Both Stifle and Daze gain tempo. Daze effectively either neuters one of your opponent's worst threats, or acts as a one sided sphere of resistence when your opponent tries to play around it. Many times, it does both.

Daze protects your threats early on just as FoW would, something that Stifle simply doesn't do. I see Counterspell as a nice midgame card (a good 2x IMO) and Stifle and Daze competing for the early game tempo boost slot.

In all seriousness, has anyone tried a configuration running all 3 cards? All three cards are better when they are unexpected, or when played around when they aren't even in your hand. Running 2x copies of each increases the odds of both. I'm making that change as I type this. I'll post back how well it works once I get a chance to play it this weekend.

[Volt]

How does Daze not gain tempo? Daze effectively either neuters one of your opponent's worst threats, or acts as a one sided sphere of resistence when your opponent tries to play around it. Often it does both.

I've explained this ad nauseum. Dazing a land back to your hand in the first couple turns of the game is very bad for your own tempo. Kronicler hit it on the head a few posts back when he wrote the following:


In the argument of Daze vs. Counterspell: I've been a huge fan of daze for a long time, and never a big fan of counterspell, but for this deck my views seem to have reversed. The addition of Sinew Sliver pushed the deck slightly more to the aggro side of aggro-control, and because of this the deck does not want to stunt its growth by picking up its own lands. One of the major differences between CounterSliver and Thresh is your ideal number of lands in play. Thresh is happy with 1 or 2, while counter sliver would much rather have 3 (lay a sliver each turn with stifle mana open) or 4 (lay a sliver and have counterspell mana open, or lay 2 slivers). These two things have really pushed me to the counterspell camp this time.



In all seriousness, has anyone tried a configuration running all 3 cards? All three cards are better when they are unexpected, or when played around when they aren't even in your hand. Running 2x copies of each increases the odds of both.

Yes. Early versions of this deck ran all three. It took us a while, but we eventually figured out that Daze wasn't helping the deck. EDIT: Also, I've been playtesting a UWgb build with 4 Dazes for the last couple of nights. I freaking hate Daze in this deck.

[Maverick676]

Myself, Pinder and Volt have thoroughly tested many different configurations of this deck, over the last several months. We have already stated the reasons for cutting daze.

Your agrument for daze is flawed. Daze does nothing to protect our early threats. Why? because they are untargetable. There is really no need to daze a creature, as you stated: our slivers are bigger than just about everything on the board, so you don't need to care about a creature they resolve since you can just run it over.

The decks main weakness is MASS REMOVAL. Daze does jack shit to stop deeds, wogs, and damnations. Counterspell always stops deeds, wogs, and damnations. Also stifle can stop deeds and engineered explosives (which is savage tech against this deck by the way). Daze just sits there like some emo kid, crying about how it has lost control of life.

[BeeblesofLife]

Doesn't anybody care about the opinions of people who have been developing and playing this deck for the last several months? We aren't speaking in theoretical terms. We are speaking from loads and loads of experience.

No, Mav, Pinder, and SockMonkey think they own the copyright on counterslivers.

Anywho...On to the next order of business. Daze accualy will do something to mass removal. If a wog is cast on turn 4, the opponent is just stupid and should have played around it. If wog is cast with a few extra mana left open daze can stop them from playing a threat that turn, giving you an advantage.
But Daze, if used at all, is an early game tempo loser. Sure i'll admit that counter spell is better. That is if you hit your land drops and your opponent is not playing ld.

[Maverick676]

[quote=BeeblesofLife;106849]No, Mav, Pinder, and SockMonkey think they own the copyright on counterslivers.


Umm Volt has been testing the deck along with Pinder and myself for longer than SockMonkey

EDIT: BTW I'm not trying to say that SockMonkey hasn't been testing this deck for a long time as well, just trying to make sure that Volt gets his due credit too.


Anywho...On to the next order of business. Daze accualy will do something to mass removal. If a wog is cast on turn 4, the opponent is just stupid and should have played around it. If wog is cast with a few extra mana left open daze can stop them from playing a threat that turn, giving you an advantage.Great!! So I lose the game, but can take solace in the fact that they don't get to play their threat till next turn? I think you should reread The Art of War I don't think you understood it very well.

[Volt]

Sure i'll admit that counter spell is better. That is if you hit your land drops and your opponent is not playing ld.

That's the one exception I'll grant you. Daze is AMAZING against lando.


That aside, the following is quoted for hilarity:

[Clark Kant]

Lol, Daze is good against Wrath, but not for that reason. It's good because Wrath and other sweepers are at the high cc end of most decks curves. And decks that run such sweepers don't play many creatures of their own. Which means they're going to need to use them early on just to stay alive, making them vulnerable to Daze. But if your opponent does anticipate daze and waits an extra turn, GOOD, that's one more turn for you to find that Force or Counterspell. You play a lot of cantrips for a reason. That one extra turn that Daze bought you is enough to let you play 2-4 cantrips, more than enough to find Force or Counterspell.

But mass removal in general just isn't that common in this format. Maybe 6% of the field runs them. The mass removal cards that see a good bit of play are Pyroclasm, Infest and Engineered Plague. All three cards can sometimes set you back early on, esp if you lead with a Crystalline and your opponent knows that. Which is why they will try to play them as early as they have the mana to, because they don't want to give you an extra turn to cast one of your 12 pump slivers and make their card irrelevent, and you will be glad you have a Daze to save your butt. A counterspell and Stifle just sit there helpless. This isn't theory talking, this is a common situation I've run into.

Also Crystalline isn't in your opening hand everygame. Often times you have to make due to with a second turn Muscle Sliver and be forced to protect that with Daze. And even when Crystalline is in your opening hand, it can easily meet up with a Force or Counterspell. This is what Daze protects against.

I do know you guys have a lot more experience with this deck and take your feedback seriously though. So I will be running Stifles. So don't worry, your counterpoints aren't falling on deaf ears.

[BeeblesofLife]

Sorry Mav(I forgot you are god) With hibernation sliver you bounce shit in response to mass removal. The purpose of the daze would be to make sure an earlier threat than yours doesnt kill your small fragile creatures when they first come out.

[Maverick676]

Crystalline isn't in your opening hand everygame. Often times you have to make due to with a second turn Muscle Sliver and be forced to protect that. And even when Crystalline is in your opening hand, it can easily meet up with a Force or Counterspell. This is what Daze protects against.

If you do not have a crystaline in your opening hand, cantrip into it. It is quite often a play mistake to drop an unprotected muscle sliver on turn 2.
Pyroclasm and infest should be irrelevant if your runing 12 pump slivers. Plague should be dealt with by harmonic sliver and again is usually irrelevant if you have 12 pump slivers. It sounds to me like your playing your slivers too aggressively, try slowing your play down a little.

EDIT: @Beebles I'd much rather just counter the mass removal, instead of paying life and replaying my creatures. Or I could bounce the slivers and just counter their threat. Either option is a better choice than yours.

[Clark Kant]

So when I say that Daze does a good job of protecting my pump slivers from burn etc before crystalline hits the table as well as letting me resolve crystalline through countermagic, you reply that Crystalline should be played first.

But when I mention Pyroclasm or worse yet, Flamebreak, you reply that I should lead with pump slivers to protect crystalline.

So which is it? :tongue:

You leave yourself vulnerable early on, whether to countermagic, removal, nontargeted removal ala edicts, or flamebreak/infest/pyroclasm, and that's what Daze has been very good to me in regards to.

[Maverick676]

So when I say that Daze does a good job of protecting my pump slivers from burn etc before crystalline hits the table as well as letting me resolve crystalline through countermagic, you reply that Crystalline should be played first.

But when I mention Pyroclasm or worse yet, Flamebreak, you reply that I should lead with pump slivers to protect crystalline.

So which is it? :tongue:

You leave yourself vulnerable early on, whether to countermagic, removal, nontargeted removal ala edicts, or flamebreak/infest/pyroclasm, and that's what Daze has been very good to me in regards to.

Force of will is what does that job, usually your first sliver should come down turn 3 at the earliest. Giving your opponent one turn to drop a pyrclasm or something before you drop some combination of muscle slivers and plated slivers. Honestly you run 4 crystaline, if you drop one down and it gets pyroclasmed but you lose nothing else then it really doesn't matter. Just cantrip for another one. The worry is losing more than one sliver to a mass removal spell.

[Hanni]

What I'm curious about is exactly what late-game threats are you worried about once you establish board control? Mass removal? That's one of the versatile uses of Hibernation Sliver, which will be in play against Control decks if you establish board control. Establishing board control isn't as easy as dropping a Crystalline Sliver, which you won't always have anyway. Either way though, the Counterspell vs Daze vs Stifle debate is never going to end up with a winner because each player has a different playstyle. I'm going to keep running Daze regardless of the arguments made for and I'm sure others feel likewise about Counterspell. I think it should just be left at that.


usually your first sliver should come down turn 3 at the earliest

This is a prime example of what I mean by different playstyles. I always drop Plated Sliver on turn 1 if I have it unless I keep a 1 land hand and I need to cantrip. With 6 Crystalline Slivers, I usually have one for turn 2 and if not I try to cantrip into it. Either way, losing 1 Plated Sliver isn't a huge loss to me. If I have Daze in hand, I can go about playing my turn 2 Muscle Sliver and dig for Crystalline within the next few turns. I play defensively when it comes to blocking early on but I like to have blockers out to do so. Once I outsize my opponent's creatures, which typically happens by about turn 3-4, I start pushing into the red zone. The deck feels very aggroish to me and I like to try to lower my opponent's life total as low as possible as soon as possible (realistically of course, not recklessly). This may be a big reason why I prefer Daze over Counterspell. I'd honestly cut Stifle before Daze for Counterspell if I didn't need the Wasteland protection.

I'm going to try a 4/3/2 FoW/Daze/Counterspell split. The biggest reasons I added Stifle in UWb Fish were because it answered Goblins nicely, which was a problem matchup, and it had synergy with Jotun Grunt. Slivers has a pretty good matchup against Goblins and I'm questioning it's necessity. The biggest reason for running it so far is for Wasteland protection, especially since the deck (my version at least) is 4c. I'll try the 4/3/2 split and if I find myself not getting wrecked by Wasteland (and still pwning Goblins), I'll make the switch. The extra spot can become the 8th Muscle Sliver. For randomness like Deed and Explosives, we have countermagic, Hibernation Sliver, and even Harmonic Sliver. I'll do some testing and see which configuration I like better.

[BeeblesofLife]

So when I say that Daze does a good job of protecting my pump slivers from burn etc before crystalline hits the table as well as letting me resolve crystalline through countermagic, you reply that Crystalline should be played first.

But when I mention Pyroclasm or worse yet, Flamebreak, you reply that I should lead with pump slivers to protect crystalline.

So which is it? :tongue:

You leave yourself vulnerable early on, whether to countermagic, removal, nontargeted removal ala edicts, or flamebreak/infest/pyroclasm, and that's what Daze has been very good to me in regards to.

I think what Mav is failing to point out, is that it depends on the meta game really. A fact is that you are going to lose slivers early game, you cant protect them all. Counter magic is a tried and true way to prevent this...but trying to protect all early on non-vital slivers is a waste of time. The best course of action with mass removal would be to put your pump slivers into play first and counter the mass removal. By doing this you gain an early point advantage by having bigger critters after the countered mass removal has left open a small window.

And Mav...Its call feigned retreat, it is used to lure your opponents out and then strike them when they are weak. I assumed you read the book, therefore i assumed you understood what I ment...Example, you bounce critters in repsonse to mass removal. They play maybe one threat same turn.
While you drop a butt-ton of small threats out that get bigger with eachothers company. Many vs One. That is exploiting a major weakness in my opinion.

[Clark Kant]

Force of will is what does that job, usually your first sliver should come down turn 3 at the earliest.

Was that a typo, or are you seriously saying that it's a misplay to cast any slivers before the third turn?:eek: No wonder you're so concerned with the goblins matchup.

So the alternatives you propose to just running Daze are either A.) Using up a FoW to make sure the Crystalline resolves or to protect your muscle sliver or B.) Letting the Crystalline/Muscle Sliver go to the graveyard and desperately try to cantrip into one later on to regain board position. I much prefer using up a Daze to make sure my Crystalline resolves ro to protect my Muscle Sliver and saving my FoW in case of seeing some bomb like Wrath or Flamebreak.

Why let a sliver die and lose board position when you can use Daze to save that sliver and use those cantrips instead to find FoW to preserve your board dominance and ensure victory?

Maybe it's just my playstyle but I certainly don't share your view that you should burn through all your cantrips the first two turns before casting any slivers. If you have good creatures to play and something (Daze/FoW) to protect them with, play them. Just because you cast cast Brainstorm turn one doesnt mean you always should. I like to estabilsh board dominance early and protect it with countermagic. I only burn through cantrips when I start running low on ways to protect/maintain my board dominance.

[Hanni]

Not that this is really relevant to the countermagic discussion but... I like free countermagic.

[Clark Kant]

I agree with you Beebles but why so much antagonism. We're all friends here and we all have good points and our experiences to share.

[Volt]

I disagree with Mav's strategy. My strategy is more in line with Hanni's. I don't wait around for Crystalline Sliver. Play turn 1 Plated (unless you need to cantrip for land), play turn 2 Muscle/Sinew, etc.

However, I still think Daze sucks in this deck. :wink:

[Maverick676]

There is no absolute rule on when to play your first sliver, or when to cantrip. It depends on what deck your opponent is playing and how fast their clock is. For example against goblins you would drop turn one plated to protect against lackey, or in most cases your turn one play would be a serum visions or a portent. Brainstorm should of course be saved for when you have an uncraked fetch.

[Hanni]

Just to stir away from the countermagic debate for a minute... what is everyone's thoughts on Aether Vial? With an increase in the number of Slivers (and if you go 4c, it's even better), maybe Vial would be good? It would make those Counterspells you guys love so much that much better...

Honestly though, I'm not for or against it. I tried a heavier aggro version with discard instead of countermagic (Duress/Therapy). Vial openings were strong, otherwise the deck was simply less consistent. The biggest downfall to Vial in here is that after you do put all the Slivers from your hand into (and whatever ones you topdeck), the deck lacks Ringleader-like card advantage to take advantage of Vial. Otherwise, it seems great against Thresh, Solidarity, and even Landstill (as well as increasing explosiveness against random aggro).

[Volt]

Just to stir away from the countermagic debate for a minute... what is everyone's thoughts on Aether Vial? With an increase in the number of Slivers (and if you go 4c, it's even better), maybe Vial would be good? It would make those Counterspells you guys love so much that much better...

Honestly though, I'm not for or against it. I tried a heavier aggro version with discard instead of countermagic (Duress/Therapy). Vial openings were strong, otherwise the deck was simply less consistent. The biggest downfall to Vial in here is that after you do put all the Slivers from your hand into (and whatever ones you topdeck), the deck lacks Ringleader-like card advantage to take advantage of Vial. Otherwise, it seems great against Thresh, Solidarity, and even Landstill (as well as increasing explosiveness against random aggro).

With 20 or so creatures in the deck, it's an iffy proposition, but not out of the question. As you said, it makes the deck more explosive at the cost of consistency. Aether Vial is great in your opening hand, but it's also a horrible topdeck. Personally, I prefer consistency and reliability. I think Vial is more suited to an all out aggro-sliver deck.

[Pinder]

Personally, I prefer consistency and reliability. I think Vial is more suited to an all out aggro-sliver deck.

I agree. Aether Vial is simply amazing in RGW Aggro-Sliver. Now if there was just some way to deal with all the spot removal...if only they'd timeshifted Crystalline to RG (or even WG!) :laugh:. Oh well.

As far as the Stifle/Counterspell/Daze debate, I think the point about playstyle is an excellent one. While I don't strictly agree with Mav in his 'no slivers till turn 3' belief, it's not all that uncommon for my first Sliver (usually a Crystalline) to come down on turn 3. Usually if I have Plated and no cantrip, I can drop it without fear turn 1, but I usually hold countermagic/cantrip mana open on turns 1 and 2 and then play a Sliver (again, usually Crystalline by that time) while holding cantrip/stifle mana on turn 3. Then I usually sit around (swinging conservatively and playing slivers) until I can drop Winged and start beating for 5-7 a turn. This usually kills my opponent by about turn 6-8. I'm not saying this is the best strategy, but it's one I often employ against anything with removal. With 8 Muscle MD this might not be as much of an issue anymore, though. My main worry used to be dropping Muscle on turns 2 and 3 for some fast aggro or something, then having them die to removal, leaving me with only 2 left for the entire game. With 8, though, I'm not sure I'd miss them as much. I think I'm going to start playing a tad more aggressively (though not recklessly), and see how I like it.

Here's something I noticed about Daze, though. It either counters something effectively early game at the cost of tempo, or counters something with less tempo loss later on (you either hardcast it or you have enough land already), but not as effectively. There's sort of an equilibrium there around turns 3-4 where Daze is just right, but outside of that window, neither of those two options are good for this deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree. Aether Vial is simply amazing in RGW Aggro-Sliver. Now if there was just some way to deal with all the spot removal...if only they'd timeshifted Crystalline to RG (or even WG!) :laugh:. Oh well.
Cauterary Sliver. If your guys are going to die, you might as well make sure they go out with a bang.

[Pinder]

Actually, I'm working on RGW Sivers in Extended (Hunter+Spined+Sidewinder FTW!), and Cautery Sliver fits right in. Thanks.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I agree with you Beebles but why so much antagonism. We're all friends here and we all have good points and our experiences to share.

Because he's a jerk.

Its like the South Park otters from the future. Not only do you you have to think you are right you have to be a dick to anyone who disagrees with you (or agrees with you in this case).

[Volt]

Don't make me stop this car, kids.

[Pinder]

:laugh:...I wonder if we're ever going to get back to meaningful deck discussion. :laugh:

Oh, and does our car have a spoiler? It only decreases the top speed by like 1 mile and hour. :wink:

[xsockmonkeyx]

:laugh:...I wonder if we're ever going to get back to meaningful deck discussion. :laugh:


Ok.

@Hanni. Can you make a judgement on the efficacy of EC in the 4c build? Does it reduce your reliance on Winged, Harmonic, Hibernation draws enough to stretch you mana base a little more? Also how many are you currently running?

@Volt. Have you made any progress on the 3cc vs 4cc issue?

[AngryTroll]

A few observations so far about the Three color vs Four color builds.

First of all, I love having manabases more expensive then some entire decks. However, I am not yet sold on the fourth color. Making both green and black splashes is probably better then relying heavily upon a third color, but I am not sure black is really needed.

Against Goblins, Hibernation Sliver is a 2/2 for 2, that can survive blocking anything. Engineered Plague from the sideboard makes things even better. Sounds great!

Against Combo, Duress and whatever else you grab make that matchup better. Again, sounds like a plus.

In both of these cases, the black splash sounds really cool....until we realize that these matchups are already great. Goblins really doesn't require Engineered Plague from the sideboard; Talon Sliver, if anything, is already in friendly colors. That matchup probably does not need a fourth color to help it out. Against Combo, in addition to Force, Counterspell, Stifle, and a clock, the deck gains Meddling Mage from the side, and can get Arcane Lab or a number of other anti-combo cards, again without splashing black.

I haven't tested the Gro matchup enough with the four color list to make a call on that. However, I am not convinced that it needs that much help, or that black is the way to do it.

Although black does help out in a number of matchups, I am not sure it is needed. There is a line somewhere between improving all the matchups with a small change, and sacrificing percentage points to mana problems, sideboard crowding, or just general inefficiency in the list. More testing, says I!

[Togit460]

it seems that an advantage of black is that it does in fact make good matchups get even better... As well as provide additional hate splashes for all the newer rogue stuff that people will work on post-chaos legality. Also don't forget that hibernation sliver is never completely dead with the pitch to FoW ability that makes it worth it's weight. I'd be interested in how often 4 colors is a problem, and if we're only splashing for slivers in the other color, then re-discussing the possibility of vial as a mana-fixer as well as explosiveness. setting it at 2 could open up a lot more opportunities. As well as having that counterspell mana open. It seems that 4 colors could indeed be a perfectly fine way to run the deck from here on out.... think about it.

[Volt]

it seems that an advantage of black is that it does in fact make good matchups get even better... As well as provide additional hate splashes for all the newer rogue stuff that people will work on post-chaos legality. Also don't forget that hibernation sliver is never completely dead with the pitch to FoW ability that makes it worth it's weight. I'd be interested in how often 4 colors is a problem, and if we're only splashing for slivers in the other color, then re-discussing the possibility of vial as a mana-fixer as well as explosiveness. setting it at 2 could open up a lot more opportunities. As well as having that counterspell mana open. It seems that 4 colors could indeed be a perfectly fine way to run the deck from here on out.... think about it.

We are thinking about it. In the meantime, you should try not to leap to any conclusions as to which matchups may or may not be improved by adding black. I don't think the Goblins matchup is improved at all, for one thing. In fact, after a couple nights of playtesting Hanni's build, I think it is slightly weaker.

The combo matchup may be a teensy bit better for UWgb after sideboarding, but game 1 is essentially identical. You could accomplish the same amount of improvement by fitting one Underground Sea into the UWg build, and 4x Duress in the sideboard -- forget about the Hibernation Slivers.

[Maverick676]

I would like to pose a question to the group in general. Why are we discussing a four color build? we have disscused a four color build before and decided against things like hibernation sliver because it stretches the manabase too much. What has changed? all of the cards added by the black splash have been available for years. The only new card added to this deck by planar chaos is sinew sliver. If anything I believe we should be discussing whether or not green is even worth running anymore. It was the weakest color in the original deck.

Running eight muscle slivers sounds attractive at first, but does it really address the decks main weaknesses? We could already handle big creatures thanks to muscle and talon sliver. The decks I lost to most often were not aggro decks, they were control decks with massive card advantage and sweepers. Examples being Truffle Shuffle and UW Landstill. I think replacing green with black would help to address these weaknesses. As such I propose the following decklist.

Meathooks 2K7:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
3 Talon Sliver

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle

3 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Night's Whisper

4 Swords to Plowshares

SB-------------------
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
4 Duress
3 Disenchant/Vindicate (will need testing to determine if it's worth the additional cost and sorcery speed)


A summary of my new card choices:

Hibernation sliver: Will help to protect against mass removal, as well as bouncing to pitch to force and combat tricks ect.

Night's Whisper: The deck really needs a way to draw some cards, The lifeloss with hibernation and whisper might be too much but only testing will tell.

With this build all the deck loses really is harmonic sliver, and eldamri's call. The loss of harmonic can be made up for with disenchant in the sideboard and eldamri's call was only a one anyway.

[aisman132000]

I'm gonna jump in here if you don't mind. I think trading for black for green is the right call. Mav is right, the green splash is not really important anymore. Like in threshold, in the original deck the green was the weakest color by far. It really gave you muscle sliver and really not much else. With the addition of sinew sliver green essentially doesn't give you anything you don't already have. I feel like mav's build gives you all the advantages that the 4 color deck does only no mana weaknesses. My only question is why the two nights whisper mav? I think two vindicates would be better in that place as they can play the same sort of role as harmonic sliver did, taking out jitte, vial and the like. Also, i guess i'm behind on the times but why only two winged? Now that your not playing 8 muscle slivers isn't flying really important?

[Maverick676]

While flying is important you don't need it right away, as long as you have 3/4s and 2/3s that have first strike you can block all day long, and then start killing your opponent once you get the flyer.

In regards to the night's whisper slot, you might be right that vindicate would be better there. I just threw it in for some more card draw, but removal might be a better idea. Only time and testing will tell.

[Volt]

Sorry to be so blunt, but you guys are wrong. The opportunity to run 8 muscle slivers is much too good to pass up. Also, Harmonic Sliver should not be underestimated. Disenchant is not going to help you get out from under Chalice for 2.

[Maverick676]

Sorry to be so blunt, but you guys are wrong. The opportunity to run 8 muscle slivers is much too good to pass up. Also, Harmonic Sliver should not be underestimated. Disenchant is not going to help you get out from under Chalice for 2.

What matchups does 8 muscle sliver improve that weren't already winnable to begin with?

In regards to chalice, that is why im considering vindicate. It blows up anything including a chalice set for 2.

[Hanni]

@Hanni. Can you make a judgement on the efficacy of EC in the 4c build? Does it reduce your reliance on Winged, Harmonic, Hibernation draws enough to stretch you mana base a little more? Also how many are you currently running?


I was running 2 and found that to be too much so I dropped it down to 1. I don't see it in many games but when I do see it I usually like to. It's nice knowing that I get 1 extra of each Sliver, mainly the Winged/Harmonic. I haven't honestly had bad mana issues consistently... usually the mana issues I have is overall land screw, getting stuck on 1-2 lands, which will happen from time to time even with cantrip (plus the inconsistency of the MWS shuffler). 1 EC has been working fine.

As far as the 4c splash, I think black does help problematic matchups. You get Hibernation Sliver vs control/sweepers and Extirpate for Loam or Genesis -> Eternal Witness > WoG type shananigans, etc. You also get Duress against combo and Threshold, which is really strong. However, green is necessary too. Harmonic Sliver answers equipment, Chalice, and tons of other randomness like Survival. In fact, I've used Harmonic to save me from Pernicious Deed quite a few times too. Not only that but it's pretty good against Goblins to blow up Vials and it has legs whereas Pithing Needle does not. I also believe that 8 Muscle Slivers does in fact make the deck stronger. 6 Crystalline Slivers with 7-8 Muscle Slivers increases the consistency of the deck immensely, which is the primary reason I'm running 4c. You want to see a Crystalline almost always and you want to see multiple Muscle Slivers almost always, with each Muscle that you play making your board position that much stronger. It gives the deck more bodies, it increases the clock of the deck. You want to know what matchup Muscle Sliver makes stronger? Threshold.

Honestly, how is Talon Sliver good against Goblins? I just don't get it... the only thing it helps against that I can see is blocking Piledrivers, where at least Hibernation can at least have some other uses, especially in other matchups. Talon Sliver gives all of your guys first strike... why is this a necessary ability against Goblins? I don't think 3/3's and larger need first strike to block 1/1's and 2/2's and the first strike isn't going to help you against chump blocking when you try to attack. I understand perfectly why Winged Sliver is good but I cannot seem to understand the logic behind Talon Sliver. If anything, Talon Sliver would be much stronger in the Threshold matchup, where I'd simply rather play more Muscle Slivers.

Another thing to note also is that someone mentioned that the 4c list is weaker against Goblins. While I am not necessarily disagreeing with this statement, my testing against Goblins has proved very favorable both pre and post board, even with the 4/3/2 split of FoW/Daze/Counterspell. Goblins is not a difficult matchup... fetch Island/Plains and proceed to grab Tropical Islands, pitch Hibernation Sliver to FoW, build up a large base and stay on defense mode all game (unless you win the tempo war early on with FoW/Daze/StP, etc, then you can alpha strike some early on). Once you get ahold of Winged Sliver, you can send 1 Sliver into attack each turn if necessary until you can win with 1 big swing. Siege Gang Commander and Piledriver are the only 2 problematic threats here (aside from 1st turn Lackey), with countermagic and 4 StP's to keep SCG off the table and countermagic, StP, or blocking to deal with Piledriver. If you want to further steal tempo, pop their Vial with Harmonic Sliver.

In my 4c list with the 4/3/2 split, here's my current board plan:

-1 Hibernation
-2 Counterspell
+2 Winged Sliver
+1 Harmonic Sliver

You don't really need Hibernation here, since you won't want to fetch black, but you still retain 5 sources of Crystalline (6 counting Eladamri's Call), and it still pitches to FoW if it's dead in hand and you can't cantrip it away. The Winged's come in to quicken the kill, Harmonic comes in to deal with Vial, and both of them increase your threat density as well. Counterspell is less spectacular here since they may have Vial and you might not have Harmonic. I like to keep FoW and Daze in because simply winning the early game tempo attrition will win the game... i.e turn 1 Plated vs Lackey, turn 2 StP on Piledriver, turn 3 Daze on Warchief, turn 4 FoW on Ringleader, etc (while you drop some creatures and attack).

Even with the 4c manabase, I haven't had problems with Goblins. Keep in mind that, while yes you are splashing 2 black sources into the manabase, they also produce white and blue respectively, so it's not like drawing an Underground Sea or Scrubland is going to be a dead land. The only problem I can see is an overall land screw vs Goblins, which can happen to any deck with 18 land, and will have little to nothing to do with being 4c. Goblins is a great matchup and I think it's worth splashing black to improve your control matchup. Yes, Counterspell can answer WoG. It still doesn't hurt to have more answers to WoG, especially if they play FoW and such. Counterspell is a one time use thing while Hibernation Sliver provides virtual protection.

Well at any rate, here's the current list I'm playtesting:

UWgb 4c Slivers

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (20)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

Spells (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
1 Eladamri's Call
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
2 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
2 Hibernation Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

You guys can disregard the 4c build or not but I love it and regardless, I simply presented it so that you could decide whether or not you wanted to try it. This is more than likely the build I'll be sticking with unless I find myself needing Stifle, which I doubt (I found it dead pretty often, there's no Jotun Grunt in here to make use of it in dead matchups).

Oh, and regarding Vindicate... It's still 3cc sorcery speed like Harmonic, still with your off-color in the casting cost, except it doesn't have legs (dropping a 4/5 at the same time as you blow up a Jitte is nice), and Vindicate doesn't work virtually. I realize it can also hit lands, which could compliment the Stifle a Wasteland plan or hit problem creatures but Harmonic is still the stronger option by far.

[Maverick676]

I

Honestly, how is Talon Sliver good against Goblins? I just don't get it... the only thing it helps against that I can see is blocking Piledrivers, where at least Hibernation can at least have some other uses, especially in other matchups. Talon Sliver gives all of your guys first strike... why is this a necessary ability against Goblins?

Talon is great against gobs because it reduces the need for muscle/sinew sliver in the matchup. Have you played against goblins with Talon sliver? Its amazing in the matchup. I don't understand the hiberation comment, I'm running both.

Also I'm not seeing how you have 6 sources of crystaline sliver. If your saying that hibernation is equal to crystaline, your a little bit insane. Not being able to be targeted is not the same as being able to bounce a sliver for 2 life (which does add up between fetches, FOW and hibernation) and then having to replay it, I'm not saying hibernation is bad or anything but its function in the deck is different from crystalines.

[Aggro_zombies]

What matchups does 8 muscle sliver improve that weren't already winnable to begin with?

In regards to chalice, that is why im considering vindicate. It blows up anything including a chalice set for 2.
Why not run the Vindicate Sliver? In the event you need to Vindicate something, it can sacrifice itself...otherwise, it makes up for some of the problems you listed previously with Vindicate, ie, not having a body and being sorcery-speed (it's a creature, so it's sorcery-speed anyway).

[xsockmonkeyx]

Why not run the Vindicate Sliver? In the event you need to Vindicate something, it can sacrifice itself...otherwise, it makes up for some of the problems you listed previously with Vindicate, ie, not having a body and being sorcery-speed (it's a creature, so it's sorcery-speed anyway).

Probably because 6 mana, two colors, plus a Sliver is a rediculous cost for that kind of effect. You can do much better with six mana available.

[Volt]

Probably because 6 mana, two colors, plus a Sliver is a rediculous cost for that kind of effect. You can do much better with six mana available.

I feel emboldened to say that Necrotic Sliver is pretty freaking terrible. It's not even appropriate to call it the 'Vindicate Sliver.' It's more like 'Desert Twister Sliver.' Even that isn't going far enough, as you have to sac one of your own threats in addition to the considerable mana investment.

[Tosh]

I still think that the "Vindicate Sliver" is still good. Is Exalted Angel bad because it costs 3+4=7 mana to play? It also can help with a mana-denial strat. with stifle and perhaps extirpate. I have not seen any lists that have been tested that include these slivers so I do not think anyone is qualified to immediately exclude that card.

[Volt]

I still think that the "Vindicate Sliver" is still good. Is Exalted Angel bad because it costs 3+4=7 mana to play? It also can help with a mana-denial strat. with stifle and perhaps extirpate. I have not seen any lists that have been tested that include these slivers so I do not think anyone is qualified to immediately exclude that card.

Exalted Angel is completely irrelevant.

Necrotic Sliver just plain sucks. It costs 3 to play. It costs 3 to activate the special ability. Plus you have to sac a sliver. And don't forget the mana cost for that sliver you sacced! Assuming you sac a 2cc sliver (since that's what the vast majority of them cost), you have now just spent 8 mana and sacced a sliver to destroy that land, Aether Vial, Werebear, or whatever the hell it is that you felt the crushing need to destroy. That is a flat out HORRIBLE deal.

EDIT: Cool picture, though, which is why I'm using it as my avatar. :)

[Tosh]

Exalted Angel is completely irrelevant.

I was using this example of how an expensively costed thing can still be good because it is split up into 2 different times to pay for it.


Necrotic Sliver just plain sucks. It costs 3 to play. It costs 3 to activate the special ability. Plus you have to sac a sliver. And don't forget the mana cost for that sliver you sacced! Assuming you sac a 2cc sliver (since that's what the vast majority of them cost), you have now just spent 8 mana and sacced a sliver to destroy that land, Aether Vial, Werebear, or whatever the hell it is that you felt the crushing need to destroy. That is a flat out HORRIBLE deal.

So saccing Necrotic is out of the question? Also, it beats for 2+ until you need to use it. Another benefit is that it is instant speed once it is out. It also can replace harmonic in the sense that it can kill anything harmonic could (although it is at a slightly higher price...) and if it is 3 color (UWB) it won't have harmonic anyway.

[kicks_422]

When you play a Necrotic, that's 3 mana. Sacrificing a sliver for the Necrotic ability is 2 mana. That's a total of 5, and the deck isn't primed to hit 5 lands, so most of the time you'll have to wait another turn to activate that abilility, giving your opponent another turn to figure what to do. In this game, one turn of planning for what you're going to do is a long time.

What are you going to destroy with it that Harmonic/StP/countermagic can't anyway?...

[xsockmonkeyx]

When you play a Necrotic, that's 3 mana. Sacrificing a sliver for the Necrotic ability is 2 mana. That's a total of 5

No dice.


Necrotic Sliver 1WB
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers have " 3 , Sacrifice this creature: Destroy target permanent."

2/2

[CrunchBite]

What are you going to destroy with it that Harmonic/StP/countermagic can't anyway?...

I think he was mentioning it in regards to the UWB build which doesn't have access to Harmonic. In the UWg or UWgb builds though, you're absolutly correct. If you're gonna run UWB, I think it's worth testing at least, but I agree that a straight Vindicate would probably be better in the slot.

Vindicate:
3 mana, sorcery speed, one use

Necrotic Sliver:
3 to play - 3 + a sliver to use, "instant" speed but sits on the table screaming its intent, partially reusable, beats for 2 in the mean time

Reusablity and the 2/2 body is attractive, but the cost is probably too prohibitive. Also, removal attached to critters is risky as far more things can happen to them before you need them then a spell that's sitting in your hand. The only reason Harmonic is any good is because the ability is essentially free. I'd give it some thought if playing UWB, but probably nothing more.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Necrotic Sliver:
Dont forget when you get it out it isnt only 3 mana sac a sliver and destroy something, it is instand speed and you could sac the dieing sliver! You could create extream card advantage.

The deck hasnt any form of sac outlet...

But in the end this sliver doesnt fit in your curve and thats the why you couldnt run it...

[kicks_422]

Thanks for pointing that out, sockmonkey. Now I think that it's really a pain on the low land count.

And your slivers aren't supposed to die. They should be bigger and stronger than the creatures that your opponent plops down. Dying slivers = bad, even when they destroy a permanent on their way out.

[Tosh]

I think that before we make a verdict on the viability of necrotic cliver that it should be tested.

Gonna edit in a list....

[Pinder]

I agree that we shouldn't really dismiss anything outright before we test it (unless it's something like Battering or Spitting Sliver), but my initial impressions are thus:

4c Slivers: It's like AMPM, there's just too much good stuff. It has all the advantages of both splashes, but is it really worth going 4 colors? It seems like the deck is trying to do too much.

UWg: 8 Muscles! Hell yeah. But is that added redundancy better than the ability to splash a different color entirely? Especially if that certain color might give us better protection against mass removal?

UWb: Despite not having the sheer goodness that is 8 Muscles, you gain Hibernation and tons of sexy black hate. And Vindicate is almost as useful as Harmonic, despite not having a body. But does a black splash do much more to improve matchups we aren't already winning? And sure Hibernation is great against WoG et al, but combined with Fetches and FoW, it could be quite a toll on the old life total.

Necrotic Sliver: Maybe testing will prove that this guy is t3h nutz, but I'm not really holding my breath. Maybe if he was a 2/2 for BW with that ability, but even then 3 mana and a sliver is a steep cost. Then again, the ability to wipe any permanent off the table is rather sexy. But more sexy than, say, just running Vindicate?

[Aggro_zombies]

Has anyone considered running Engineered Explosives in the WUB build of the deck? It's basically a 2-mana Chalice killer (free to play, two to activate, gets rid of moxen on the side) that can occasionally kill other stuff if you need it to (up to 3 cc, and you can bounce key slivers if you need to blow things up in the 2 cc range). It seems like a decent inclusion and is slightly more versatile than Vindicate (although it can't destroy lands, but what lands do you really need to destroy in this deck? And don't say anything about a tempo boost, this deck is good enough at that game as-is...). Thoughts?

[Volt]

Has anyone considered running Engineered Explosives in the WUB build of the deck? It's basically a 2-mana Chalice killer (free to play, two to activate, gets rid of moxen on the side) that can occasionally kill other stuff if you need it to (up to 3 cc, and you can bounce key slivers if you need to blow things up in the 2 cc range). It seems like a decent inclusion and is slightly more versatile than Vindicate (although it can't destroy lands, but what lands do you really need to destroy in this deck? And don't say anything about a tempo boost, this deck is good enough at that game as-is...). Thoughts?

Engineered Explosives has been tested in the UWg build, and it was found to be a solid choice. It is excellent at killing Chalices, Mongeese, Aether Vials, and other random 0-1cc crap.

If you've made up your mind to go with UWb, then EE and Vindicate are both solid choices for dealing with problematic permanents. I would probably use a mixture of the two. Vindicate in the maindeck and EE in the sideboard, or vice versa.

[Tosh]

Necrotic Sliver: Maybe testing will prove that this guy is t3h nutz, but I'm not really holding my breath. Maybe if he was a 2/2 for BW with that ability, but even then 3 mana and a sliver is a steep cost. Then again, the ability to wipe any permanent off the table is rather sexy. But more sexy than, say, just running Vindicate?

Does running Vindicate swing for 2+ per turn until needed? Didn't think so.

[AngryTroll]

Here's what I think about Necrotic Sliver. If you are running him as a 2/2 for three with an added ability, he could be great. If you are running him as removal, you are looking in the wrong direction.

6 Mana for a Vindicate is not the way to go. However, a 2/2 for three, that gets all the perks of its buddies, might be playable as a 2 or 3 of. Play it as a vanilla 2/2, and later you have the option to Vindicate. Playing it as Vindicate is not viable. To play it, you need to treat it as a critter with an ability that you may end up not using at all. As just a removal spell, it is clearly not worth running. As a utility on a 2/2 body that you can play without ever using the ability, it is worth looking into.

[Tosh]

Here's what I think about Necrotic Sliver. If you are running him as a 2/2 for three with an added ability, he could be great. If you are running him as removal, you are looking in the wrong direction.

6 Mana for a Vindicate is not the way to go. However, a 2/2 for three, that gets all the perks of its buddies, might be playable as a 2 or 3 of. Play it as a vanilla 2/2, and later you have the option to Vindicate. Playing it as Vindicate is not viable. To play it, you need to treat it as a critter with an ability that you may end up not using at all. As just a removal spell, it is clearly not worth running. As a utility on a 2/2 body that you can play without ever using the ability, it is worth looking into.

QFT

This is what I was trying to get at.

[Pinder]

Has anyone considered running Engineered Explosives in the WUB build of the deck? It's basically a 2-mana Chalice killer (free to play, two to activate, gets rid of moxen on the side) that can occasionally kill other stuff if you need it to (up to 3 cc, and you can bounce key slivers if you need to blow things up in the 2 cc range). It seems like a decent inclusion and is slightly more versatile than Vindicate (although it can't destroy lands, but what lands do you really need to destroy in this deck? And don't say anything about a tempo boost, this deck is good enough at that game as-is...). Thoughts?

That's a really good point. If we run Necrotic simply as a 2/2 with an ability we might use, along with EE (which is dodges 9/10 of the time), it might be a pretty decent combination. Of course, that's for the UWb build. For now I'm sticking to UWg. The list I'm going to be testing:

//Land (18)
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

//Creatures (18)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

//Spells (24)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
1 Eladamri's Call

//Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Worship
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver

[Hanni]

After winning on turn 4, I would never play any less than 8 Muscle Slivers.

Turn 1 Plated Sliver
Turn 2 Muscle Sliver, swing for 2
Turn 3 Sinew Sliver, swing for 6
Turn 4 Sinew Sliver, swing for 12

2+6+12=20

[Giles]

Today, when I was looking at Starcitygames.com on of the articles was talking about the impact of PC on Magic. This is what it said for Sinew Sliver in Legacy:

Sinew Sliver - 1W
Creature – Sliver
1/1.
All Slivers get +1/+1.

Some have said that Legacy is where the good Extended decks of yesteryear have gone to die, and Sinew Sliver is a color-shifted reprint of Muscle Sliver, part of the old Counter-Sliver “trifecta” of Crystalline / Muscle / Winged. This is of course Blue, White, and Green combined, and if you're going to play a U/W/G aggro deck, Threshold will generally be a better choice. However, if you are looking to play the “new trifecta” of Crystalline / Sinew / Winged, you get the benefits of “just” a two-color manabase, which can take advantage of reduced vulnerability to Wasteland and possibly even run Wastelands itself, something most Threshold decks would consider too ambitious to try themselves. For those who really, really want a reason to play Slivers, you can now play Crystalline / Sinew / Muscle / Winged, and perhaps maybe just maybe go hog-wild while you're at it so long as you don't mind the three-color manabase.

A U/W Slivers deck could play similarly to Threshold and have an easier time casting the key Tivadar's Crusade, among other benefits. It's a far cry to say this would be automatically better but it may be worth considering the possibility... and I suspect it will be looked into between now and the upcoming Grand Prix in May.

Although, the guy has no clue what he talking about. ( I really think he just read this forum and paraphrased a post). SCG's writing staff have mention meathooks, existance.

[Pinder]

After winning on turn 4, I would never play any less than 8 Muscle Slivers.

Turn 1 Plated Sliver
Turn 2 Muscle Sliver, swing for 2
Turn 3 Sinew Sliver, swing for 6
Turn 4 Sinew Sliver, swing for 12

2+6+12=20

Sure, that's an impressive goldfish, but I question how realistic it is. I mean, there's no Crystalline Sliver in that list of plays. Now, you don't have to have Crystalline out to start dropping guys (especially with the added redundancy of 8 Muscle Slivers), but I find it hard to believe that not one of those creatures died to some sort of removal in the first four turns without Crystalline. Or that you swung unabated for 3 straight turns. What deck where you playing against, that had no creatures and no way to remove them?

I'm not trying to be mean, but it just doesn't seem like that sort of thing would happen all that often.

[Hanni]

I was on the play, they played nothing on turn 1, I Daze'd their turn 2 Silver Knight and Forced their turn 3 Exalted Angel ala morph. It was a god draw, I agree, and my opponent didn't have an StP, but it's still a turn 4 win. I can see it being more realistic against combo, where you don't need to worry about losing threats to removal and they have no blockers.

Regardless of blockers or removal, that's still an awesome clock (4 4/5's on turn 4). Daze a few things, Force a few things, use an StP here or there, drop a Winged Sliver if you have to, I just wanted to point out the possibility of the turn 4 kill (equivilant to Goblins). I wouldn't run any less than 8 Muscle Slivers.

[Volt]

I've been giving some more thought to a 4-color build. I think in order to do it right, you need to expand the mana-base to make it more robust. Also, it becomes necessary to cut some cards from the UWg build that I like, i.e. Plated Sliver, Serum Visions.

The following build is completely untested, but I'm throwing it out there anyway:

// land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains

// creatures
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

// instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell
1 Eladamri's Call


The one sort of odd card choice is Shadowmage Infiltrator, which obviously is there to provide card drawing, ala Ophidian from the old Extended builds. I chose it over Dark Confidant because I don't think Bob combos well with 8 fetches, Hibernation Sliver bounce tricks, and Force of Wills. Maybe it sucks, but I'm going to try it out.

The controversial Stifle is in there as well, but could be replaced by Daze if that is your preference.

The lack of Plated Slivers bothers me, and I think the game 1 matchup vs Goblins will suffer due to their absence. But, we'll see.

I will be playtesting this version. In the meantime, comments are welcome.

[Maverick676]

I hate to say it but this build looks just awful. You have no card drawing engine. 4 brainstorm is just not enough, you won't be able to count on shadow mage infiltraitor to draw cards. With all the removal unable to touch your slivers thanks to crystaline sliver, It will all get aimed at the infiltraitor.

This build trades cantrips and useful slivers like plated for what? Hibernation sliver and Shadowmage infiltraitors that will surely be killed before they can attack.

[Volt]

I hate to say it but this build looks just awful. You have no card drawing engine. 4 brainstorm is just not enough, you won't be able to count on shadow mage infiltraitor to draw cards. With all the removal unable to touch your slivers thanks to crystaline sliver, It will all get aimed at the infiltraitor.

This build trades cantrips and useful slivers like plated for what? Hibernation sliver and Shadowmage infiltraitors that will surely be killed before they can attack.

I have the same reservations, but I'm trying to give a fair shake to ideas that other parties have adamantly put forth. Although, to be fair, others have opted for Bob instead of Shadowmage Infiltrator. I'm not currently advocating this build. Just throwing it out there for discussion. I'm going to playtest it for a while and see how it does.

[Hanni]

As far as the my build goes, I am also considering the following changes:

MD
-1 Harmonic Sliver
-1 Eladamri's Call
+2 Winged Sliver

SB
-2 Winged Sliver
+1 Harmonic Sliver
+1 Perish

Still up in the air with this, though it should improve my Tier 1 matchups and hurt my Faerie Stompy and Angel Stompy matchups game 1 (as well as anything else where I'd want maindeck Disenchants against).

[Volt]

As far as the my build goes, I am also considering the following changes:

MD
-1 Harmonic Sliver
-1 Eladamri's Call
+2 Winged Sliver

SB
-2 Winged Sliver
+1 Harmonic Sliver
+1 Perish

Still up in the air with this, though it should improve my Tier 1 matchups and hurt my Faerie Stompy and Angel Stompy matchups game 1 (as well as anything else where I'd want maindeck Disenchants against).

I think those are solid choices. EC is only in there to fetch Harmonic or Winged. Since Winged is so important to the deck, I think bumping the count back up to 3 is a great idea. And if you're going to relegate Harmonics entirely to the sideboard (a justifiable decision, imo), there's really no reason to run EC any more.

[Hanni]

As much as Extirpate was good vs Loam, I'm considering dropping it altogether because it's been proving pretty bad against combo and at least with Crypt, I can use it against Thresh and Loam (although not as effective).

SB
-2 Extirpate
-1 Perish
+1 Duress
+2 Tormod's Crypt

For Thresh, I'd drop 3 Winged Sliver and 2 StP for 3 Duress and 2 Tormod's Crypt. I don't know what else I'd drop for the 4th Duress, although I probably won't need it.

For Goblins, I'd drop 2 Counterspell for 2 Harmonic Sliver.

For Solidarity, I'd drop 4 StP, 3 Winged Sliver, and 2 Hibernation Sliver for 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Duress, and 1 Crypt.

[Pinder]

Also, it becomes necessary to cut some cards from the UWg build that I like, i.e. Plated Sliver, Serum Visions.

The following build is completely untested, but I'm throwing it out there anyway:

// land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains

// creatures
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

// instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell
1 Eladamri's Call


I think that it's true that if you drop Serum Visions, you need some sort of hard card advantage, but I'm not so sure that something as fragile as a creature (especially if it's the only one of our creatures that can be targeted) is the right way to go. Are there any noncreature spells we could possibly replace Serum Visions with to generate card advantage? Predict comes to mind again, but I'm not sure that's really the right decision.

Also, with 20 creatures across 4 colors, Aether Vial is suddenly looking like a very justifiable option for 4c, as we have enough slivers to make it truly useful, and it can help smooth over the heavy color dependencies.

Just a few thoughts.

[Volt]

I think that it's true that if you drop Serum Visions, you need some sort of hard card advantage, but I'm not so sure that something as fragile as a creature (especially if it's the only one of our creatures that can be targeted) is the right way to go. Are there any noncreature spells we could possibly replace Serum Visions with to generate card advantage? Predict comes to mind again, but I'm not sure that's really the right decision.

Also, with 20 creatures across 4 colors, Aether Vial is suddenly looking like a very justifiable option for 4c, as we have enough slivers to make it truly useful, and it can help smooth over the heavy color dependencies.

Just a few thoughts.

Well, black also offers Night's Whisper for draw, which is certainly better than Predict. Still kind of meh, though.

I'm going to keep Aether Vial in mind, although I think it's pretty marginal even with 20 creatures in the deck. Part of the reason I bumped the lands up to 20 was to help out with the heavy color dependencies. We'll see how it goes.


EDIT: I just had another thought (and then my head exploded). With 20 lands, the deck might be able to support Fact or Fiction!
.
.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Shadowmage looks terrible on paper, my friend. A 3 mana non-sliver which needs to turn sideways just to gain parity isnt something that exactly screams inclusion in this deck. Given that and the fact that other cards are fighting for slots I would probably cut them. I like the Fact of Fiction idea a ton better than finkel.

[Pinder]

EDIT: I just had another thought (and then my head exploded). With 20 lands, the deck might be able to support Fact or Fiction!


My Head Asplode.

Maverick actually brought the idea to me some time ago (it might even be in the N&D thread), and I shot it down because....(drumroll)...we didn't have enough land to support it. With 20 land maindeck, could the sheer goodness that is EOTFOF make it in? Perhaps as a 2 or 3 of? I can't concieve a reason why it wouldn't be worth testing.

[BeeblesofLife]

I think that with bringing up the land count you might want to be running more basics. Wasteland does slow you guys down at least a little and ld in general does of a big affect on your dudes and the inability to play them do to loss of a color via ld.

On a side note Pinder...How do you think Hanni's 4 color will stand up to my pox?

[Togit460]

we didn't have enough land to support it. With 20 land maindeck, could the sheer goodness that is EOTFOF make it in? Perhaps as a 2 or 3 of? I can't concieve a reason why it wouldn't be worth testing.

I can, wouldn't you rather just win? Fact or Fiction seems more than just a little unnecesary in this deck, it's more for pure control, notice that thresh (which this deck's shell came from), doesn't run it. Look at all the top 8's in the last 3 month's, how many of them that have blue run FoF?! It may look sexy, but it's still sub-optimal, (despite having a full set of foily ones)...

[Maverick676]

Again I feel the need to point out one of the glaring differences between Meathooks and Thresh. Thresh can win with only ONE or TWO creatures on the board, Meathooks needs at least THREE or FOUR. Meathooks just simply needs more card advantage than Thresh does.

On an added note it would be fun to EOTFOFFTW for 3+ muscle slivers. Your opponent would cry.

[Giles]

EOTFOFFTW

The acronym is EOTFOFYL.

To tell everyone the truth, I am surprised that there is no card drawing sliver. If there is one (Like Thieving Magpie ) that comes out in a new set. I think that it is a automatic shoe-in for the deck.

Also this inclusion might allow Misdirection in the MB or SB.

[Maverick676]

The acronym is EOTFOFYL.

To tell everyone the truth, I am surprised that there is no card drawing sliver. If there is one (Like Thieving Magpie ) that comes out in a new set. I think that it is a automatic shoe-in for the deck.

Also this inclusion might allow Misdirection in the MB or SB.

Well now we have a new acronym MUHAHAHA


There already is a card drawing sliver. Hibernation EDIT: (and by that I meant dormant sliver) sliver, you draw a card when you play a sliver, but all slivers gain defender. In short it sucks.

I don't think a creature-based draw engine is the right thing in this deck anyway. Usually when you really need to draw cards is after you have lost many, if not all of your slivers to mass removal or something. What the deck needs is a quick efficient way to refill it's hand. If we go with a higher landcount the Fact or Fiction is the best you will find short of ancestral recall.

[Volt]

Also, there's Synapse Sliver (http://magiccards.info/le/en/53.html), but it costs 5.



I don't think a creature-based draw engine is the right thing in this deck anyway. Usually when you really need to draw cards is after you have lost many, if not all of your slivers to mass removal or something. What the deck needs is a quick efficient way to refill it's hand. If we go with a higher landcount the Fact or Fiction is the best you will find short of ancestral recall.

I'm still considering Fact or Fiction, but it may well turn out that running 2 more slivers in those slots is generally preferable. One of the nice things about slivers is that they create lots of virtual card advantage by making your opponent's creatures irrelevant. Heck, with Harmonic Sliver you sometimes get true card advantage.

[Aggro_zombies]

Don't forget Mnemonic Sliver, which completes the trio of card-drawing Slivers. Also, I've begun testing a mix of Vindicate and Vindicate Sliver in my sideboard, I'll put the list up here later.

[Hanni]

Actually to be quite honest, Synapse Sliver kinda sounds like a solid idea for a full aggro version with Vial (and Gemhide Sliver).

On another note, has anyone considered Oath of Ghouls as another answer to mass removal?

[xsockmonkeyx]

This is the list that Im working on currently. It has 3 colors, 19 lands, 19 Slivers(8 Muscle), no daze, and Harmonic Sliver sitting in the board. I only included the slivers that I felt were absolutely necessary to the UWG sliver strategy. The sideboard is a work in progress. The talon Slivers are there to fight off aggro by increasing your deck's sliver density and to add more defense.

Fishhooks

Slivers:
4 Plated
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
4 Crystalline
3 Winged

Answers:
4 FoW
4 StP
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle

Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum

Fetch
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
Dual
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
Basic
3 Island
1 Plains


Side
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Harmonic Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Talon Sliver

EDIT for Hanni's Post:


Actually to be quite honest, Synapse Sliver kinda sounds like a solid idea for a full aggro version with Vial (and Gemhide Sliver).

Hmmm. Doesnt sound half bad except that there is no Sliver Lackey. Would you include any 4 drop slivers?

[Hanni]

I guess it really depends on the build of the deck. With Gemhide Sliver and Vial, you can produce large amounts of mana quickly. I realize there is no Sliver Lackey but I think the pump Slivers somewhat negate this, since you trade some early game tempo for some much larger threats. However, we do have haste Slivers with Firewake Sliver and Heart Sliver, if you felt that the deck needed some additional speed.

Essence Sliver seems like a solid 4cc Sliver, although I have no clue whether or not it would be necessary.

Honestly though, I'd rather just keep the deck aggro/control. It might not be as powerful but it exerts much more control over the game, allowing the player to answer bombs like Wrath of God and still have a good game against Combo as well. The deck already outplays Goblins, which breaks the rule of Goblins > aggro/control, so I don't really see the need to go all out aggro. I should probably investigate this further, though.

With or without Vial, the quickest kill Slivers has is still turn 4 (without Heart Sliver).

[xsockmonkeyx]

I guess it really depends on the build of the deck. With Gemhide Sliver and Vial, you can produce large amounts of mana quickly. I realize there is no Sliver Lackey but I think the pump Slivers somewhat negate this, since you trade some early game tempo for some much larger threats. However, we do have haste Slivers with Firewake Sliver and Heart Sliver, if you felt that the deck needed some additional speed.

I meant that because you have no Sliver Lackey you may be hard pressed to consistantly power out 4cc-5cc men and find yourself leaning heavily on the Vial. As to Gemhide I think I would rather be attacking/defending with my slivers than tapping them for sorcery speed spells (quick sliver maybe?). Futhermore, there is no way to fill up your hand for free like you can with Ringleader. You may find yourself with great opportunity to cast/play slivers but not actually have any to play. Again this is pure speculation.

Hmmm. Maybe Gemhide to power out EOT fact or fiction?


The deck already outplays Goblins, which breaks the rule of Goblins > aggro/control, so I don't really see the need to go all out aggro. I should probably investigate this further, though.

With or without Vial, the quickest kill Slivers has is still turn 4 (without Heart Sliver).

The idea that aggro control beats goblins and can put up a decent clock is what makes Meathooks+Sinew so scary. What a monster.

[Hanni]

Futhermore, there is no way to fill up your hand for free like you can with Ringleader.

I thought that's why I said Synapse Sliver would be good in an all aggro version... it might be 1 extra cc, but if your attacking with multiple Slivers in a turn, that's as good or better than Ringleader. There's always the option of paying 3 and tutoring for a Sliver via Sliver Overlord if you wanna go fabtastic.

The whole point though, for my suggestion of Gemhide + Vial, was because someone mentioned Synapse Sliver and I was explaining how Synapse could be viable. As I've already said, I think the aggro/control route is the best route for the deck (without Synapse, of course).

[Pinder]

Futhermore, there is no way to fill up your hand for free like you can with Ringleader.


Well, FOF is just like Ringleader here. Except that it doesn't leave behind a 2/2 haste and it can't be Vialed in. Still worth testing IMO, though. Especially when you're playing someone who's dumb.

[Finn]

Well, FOF is just like Ringleader here. Except that it doesn't leave behind a 2/2 haste and it can't be Vialed in. Still worth testing IMO, though. Especially when you're playing someone who's dumb.

[Elgin moment]So you're saying that if the opponent is dumb, a card that has none of the things that make Ringleader exceptional is worth playing in its stead?[/end Elgin moment]

Honestly, cards that don't kick ass for multiple reasons don't cut it in Legacy. FoF will win you a few games and you may think its is great, but eventually you will realize why aggressive decks don't have four mana cards that don't deal lots of damage. Isn't there a decent Sliver that generates card advantage?

[Pinder]

[Elgin moment]So you're saying that if the opponent is dumb, a card that has none of the things that make Ringleader exceptional is worth playing in its stead?[/end Elgin moment]


Point taken.


Isn't there a decent Sliver that generates card advantage?

Sadly, no. No there isn't. There are 3 slivers that actually let you draw cards, those being Dormant Sliver (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/PLC/en-us/Card126025.jpg), Mnemonic Sliver (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/TE/en-us/Card4714.jpg), and Synapse Sliver (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/LGN/en-us/Card42026.jpg). None of these cards make it into the deck, for various reasons. Of them, Synapse is probably the most viable, but its high cost makes it too prohibitive. If it costed 1UU, I'd run it.

[Volt]

[Elgin moment]So you're saying that if the opponent is dumb, a card that has none of the things that make Ringleader exceptional is worth playing in its stead?[/end Elgin moment]

Honestly, cards that don't kick ass for multiple reasons don't cut it in Legacy. FoF will win you a few games and you may think its is great, but eventually you will realize why aggressive decks don't have four mana cards that don't deal lots of damage. Isn't there a decent Sliver that generates card advantage?

I'm not ready to pass judgment on FoF yet, but in my limited playtesting last night, I usually found that I wanted it to be another sliver. Btw, Shadowmage Infiltrator was quickly dismissed as crap. Not sure why I thought that had a chance in hell of being good.

As far as slivers that generate card advantage... There are only a few playable ones that generate true card advantage, and they generally only due so situationally. Harmonic Sliver is a good example of this (I get a permanent + you lose one = card advantage). In general, though, slivers aren't good at creating true CA, outside of a few overcosted or otherwise unplayable ones (i.e. Synapse, Mnemonic, Dormant). What slivers are GREAT at doing is creating virtual card advantage. After a few of your slivers hit the board, your opponent's creatures tend to become irrelevant. In other words, those creatures become dead cards. Also, your opponent's targeted removal spells become useless once a Crystalline or Hibernation hits the board. Countersliver thrives on creating these sorts of advantages. It would be nice if we had some sort of amazing card-drawing engine that we could fit into this deck, but it would in fact have to be pretty amazing to outweigh the advantages of simply running more slivers.

[Hanni]

What slivers are GREAT at doing is creating virtual card advantage.

Isn't this what I said like 2-3 pages ago when I said this deck didn't need a draw engine outside of the 8 cantrip? lol

EDIT: Actually, I said that on page 25 when I first posted my 4c list and got the 4c debate going, which was post # 451. My apologies.

[Volt]

Isn't this what I said like 2-3 pages ago when I said this deck didn't need a draw engine outside of the 8 cantrip? lol

EDIT: Actually, I said that on page 25 when I first posted my 4c list and got the 4c debate going, which was post # 451. My apologies.


I've got you beat. Post 30 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=94052&postcount=30)

:tongue:

[Hanni]

Well then, forget I said anything... lol

[kicks_422]

I'm still running the Uwg version and have never felt the need for going 4 color.

I still run 4 Stifles main, and with that along with 8 countermagic, the combo match-up is good, so no need for Duress. Extirpate hasn't really lived up to its hype for me as well.

The Goblins match-up has always been good, so I don't think there's a need for Engineered Plague.

Which leaves us with Hibernation Sliver. I'm not questioning its hawtness, as there's a lot of things that can be used with that bounce (bounce a sliver for FoW, save them from mass removal, stack damage then bounce, etc.), but I never actually used it much when I tried the 4 color version. In games with decks packing mass removal, I noticed that bouncing your Slivers was just a sign of a loss on your part.

We don't need a splash for black. What we need is enough draw to continuously fill our hands in case of mass removal and, generally, for more threats and answers.

We run arguably the two best 1cc cantrips (BS and SV), and there are a myriad of options for more draw such as FoF, Synapse and Mnemonic, AK, heck even Remand. The challenge now is how to balance the number of Slivers (which I think should never go below 18), countermagic (including Stifle), and draw.

[Patoon]

I agree with kicks, adding black is just pushing the list somewhere it doesnt need to go. By keeping the list UWg it means the manabase is essentially UW as the only required main deck green card is muscle sliver.

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

In terms of the spell package, i think Hanni is pretty much on the money, why not take the testing that has gone into threshold, and use a slightly modified version of their spell package.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze (Possible reverse with counterspell depending on meta)
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

Although i can see the benefits of stifle, i dont think it is required for this list to be sucessful, as i dont think it is value in enough cases, i mean if it were wouldnt thresh be running it?

[BeeblesofLife]

Yeah, I have to agree with patoon on this one. Fact or fiction Doesnt belong in a deck where the highest casting cost is 3. Seeing how this deck functions and all, its seems as if you would have to tap out just to play it. That time and mana would be better spent playing dudes and whatnot. It would also leave you vunerable for a turn, unless the person was to give you a really good pile and not know what they were doing.

@Patoon: Dont get them started on the Daze vs. Counerspell thing. It will be another full page before they come to the same conclusion that they have come to in past discussions on that topic. And TRUST me, You dont want to get Sockmonkey started.

[Patoon]

Yeah i have been mostly silently involved with this thread since then (and before) it is a debate that could, can, and will continue forever, but inevitably both are good cards and both should be run in this deck. the optimal number of each is debatable, but irrelevant as no open answer will be right.

Furthering on from my previous post is finalizing the land base for the list
the obvious inclusions are
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

Then i am pretty sure the second dual has to be
2 Tropical Island (possibly 3)

Then main topic which requires debate i think is
Polluted Delta Vs. Windswept Heath

I personally think the heath is a go, or possible a split between then two, as heath can get basic forest and basic plains which will be the auto targets of LD. So i say
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta

Then basics would be
2 Islands
1 Plains
1 Forest

[xsockmonkeyx]

And TRUST me, You dont want to get Sockmonkey started.

What the fuck are you talking about? Cease your ******ry you human piece of garbage.

[Volt]

The main topic which requires debate i think is
Polluted Delta Vs. Windswept Heath

I personally think the heath is a go, or possible a split between then two, as heath can get basic forest and basic plains which will be the auto targets of LD. So i say
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta

Then basics would be
2 Islands
1 Plains
1 Forest

Running a basic forest is suboptimal in a deck with only 4 green spells. A basic forest does not help you cast Crystalline Sliver, Plated Sliver, Swords to Plowshares, Serum Visions, Brainstorm, Stifle, Daze, or Counterspell. Just run 3 or 4 Trops as your green sources. That makes the Windswept Heath vs. Polluted Delta decision easy. Polluted Delta > Windswept Heath.

[Patoon]

Ok well that is a fair call, i think we can all agree
in which case leave the mana base as
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Islands
1 Plains

I figure the board will contact more green spells to the extra trop make sense.

So can we all agree on this list (those who are not still stuck on black)

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze (Possible reverse with counterspell depending on meta)
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

If so i guess we can decide on sideboard possibility's

[BeeblesofLife]

What the fuck are you talking about? Cease your ******ry you human piece of garbage.

Does everyone see my point?
Well sockmonkey...Should I tell them your little childhood secret or are you going to take a joke like a man?


@Patoon. All of you duels should be blue based for the most part so i would run
The deltas and strands as a primary bulk and then maybe run Windeswept heath as like a 2 of as you suggested.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Does everyone see my point?
Well sockmonkey...Should I tell them your little childhood secret or are you going to take a joke like a man?


Jokes are funny. This is just retarded.

[BeeblesofLife]

How is that in anyway contributing to the discussion?

[Volt]

@Beebles: You were goading him.

@Monkey: You shouldn't have taken the bait.

I wish you both would cut it out right now.

[Patoon]

So i guess the sideboard from the last bit of discussion look a bit like

4 Retards
3 Shut ups
1 Childhood secret
4 Jokes
3 Taking jokes

solid i think :) lol

[BeeblesofLife]

Patoon, You fucking rock. Seriously you just became my favorite member of all time. That was just Freakin sweet!

[Pinder]

@Beebles: You were goading him.

@Monkey: You shouldn't have taken the bait.

I wish you both would cut it out right now.

QFT. You both need to shut the hell up if you are just going to squabble. And if you must squabble, just try and include at least a little honest to God input when you do, okay?

[Patoon]

Thanks

Anywho, on a more serious note, i think we can definitely cut at least some of those retards for Harmonic Sliver, that guy is pretty gas

Many of you have been putting Talon sliver in the side, i am not sure about this to be honest, he just doesnt seem to have enough function for a sideboard card

I think meddling mage is a great inclusion is used for nothing else than the solidarity match up.

tormods crypt is also great

pithing needles are also very viable

What do we think are our best options

[BeeblesofLife]

Talon sliver is good in mutliple Mu's. Especially goblins and Gro, which is also where Winged slivers shine. A few of us have opted to go with one or the other depending on what the deck gos up against. But in my opinion a Flying, pumped, untargetable, first sriking sliver is the shit.
But sadly winged sliver is a tad better in most MU's.

[Patoon]

i dont thing talon is needed, i mean the matchup is already good against goblins, i think the matchups against the combo and control decks is where the sideboard should focus.

[Volt]

Thanks

Anywho, on a more serious note, i think we can definitely cut at least some of those retards for Harmonic Sliver, that guy is pretty gas

Many of you have been putting Talon sliver in the side, i am not sure about this to be honest, he just doesnt seem to have enough function for a sideboard card

I think meddling mage is a great inclusion is used for nothing else than the solidarity match up.

tormods crypt is also great

pithing needles are also very viable

What do we think are our best options

Well, as I've said before, I think it's pointless to try to come up with a standard sideboard. That said, I think you start with 4 Meddling Mage, 3 or 4 Harmonics, and go from there. Right now, I'm running the following sideboard in my UWg build:
4 Disrupt (good vs burn, lando, hando, and combo!)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
3 Harmonic Sliver

[Windux]

With almost 20 creatures, I saw myself never having UU left for a Counterspell.



// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Forest

// Creatures
4 [TE] Muscle Sliver
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
4 [PCB] Sinew Sliver
4 [LE] Plated Sliver
3 [TE] Winged Sliver

// Spells
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Predict
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Worship
SB: 2 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage


To the discuss about Forest and Windswept Heath:
It's just SO necessary, to have acces to Green AND White in form of a Basic against Landdisruption (aka Goblin and Sui).
Okay, it's also necessary to have an Island or even 2 (but I did'nt found space now), but at least you can Daze your own Duals back to the hand if you need to. The point, that you only have Muscle Sliver and Harmonics (in side) isn't really a reason. Think about the games, where you have found yourself in a split to hold a hand, only because you had this 1 Forest: It's nearly 0,1337%. You also have the possibility to shuffle it away if you don't need it.
But why should we talk about that shit again? Look at the UGW Thresh-Thread ;)

[Patoon]

yeah totally agreed on that one a sideboard is a sideboard it changes for the meta, but what you said i think applied for all meta, mage and harmonic

that is why i suggested we discuss the possibilities.

what meta are you building for volt

[Hanni]

Talon sliver is good in mutliple Mu's. Especially goblins and Gro,

Why the hell does every keep saying Talon Sliver is good in the Goblins matchup? Have you guys even tested Talon Sliver against Goblins since Planar Chaos? What is the point of having 2/3 or bigger first strike Goblins when you already outsizing Goblins? Talon Sliver is a terrible Sliver in the Goblins matchup, since it comes down smaller than Plated Sliver for 2 mana. The only benefit Talon Sliver gives against Goblins is the ability to block Piledriver and live, which is what StP or simply trading a Plated Sliver is for.

Talon Sliver is meant more for matchups like Threshold and other mid range aggro decks, where I still find Pump Slivers to be the better option. If your running Talon in the board, what are you siding out? Winged Sliver? I suppose that's not a terrible idea, though I still prefer boarding into Duress for this matchup.

[Volt]

With almost 20 creatures, I saw myself never having UU left for a Counterspell.

// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Forest


With just 17 lands, only 15 of which produce (or fetch) blue, of course you're going to have to trouble keeping UU open. We switched to 18 lands quite a while back. The recent trend is to run 19 lands, and I agree with that trend.

Once you beef up the land count, you'll still find that Counterspell is clunky during the first 3-4 turns, but becomes quite valuable after that.


yeah totally agreed on that one a sideboard is a sideboard it changes for the meta, but what you said i think applied for all meta, mage and harmonic

that is why i suggested we discuss the possibilities.

what meta are you building for volt

That sideboard is designed to handle a varied, well-developed metagame like you might expect to see at a large tournament.

[BeeblesofLife]

I was suggesting that simply because of the low winged count in some decks.
Since "Call" is the new one-of rage. And it comes down to percetages, there will be at times when winged doesnt come up or you get a shitty draw and pumpers dont come up. And dont say " that rarely ever happens". Cause in a tournament where a prize is on the line i would prefer not to chance it.

[Hanni]

Beebles, with 12 pump Slivers and 8 cantrip effects, you will see pump Slivers. That's the whole point to running the Sliver engine (aside from untargetability). Talon Sliver does nothing for you against Goblins aside from blocking Goblin Piledriver.

[Volt]

I have officially given up on UWgb. Hibernation Sliver is overhyped and simply not worth it. Don't get me wrong -- you can run a UWgb build and be quite successful with it. However, Hibernation Sliver and the 4th color in general are not what makes the deck. What makes the deck is Crystalline + pump slivers + Winged + countermagic. That said, here is the current UWg build that I am advocating:

// land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains

// creatures
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

// instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell

// sorceries
3 Serum Visions


This build is just a couple cards off from a build that SockMonkey posted at MtgSalvation yesterday. I liked the fact that he had bumped the land count up to 19 and distilled the creature base to the "Perfect 19." This build is very consistent, rarely losing games to mana-screw (as long as you mulligan intelligently). It runs over Goblins, outmuscles Threshold, and has good game against combo (great game against combo after sideboarding). It has a tough time against decks featuring Chalice of the Void in game 1, but siding in 3 or 4 Harmonics will take care of that.

[Pinder]

I really like that list, to be honest. I just hate the thought of Harmonic not having at least some presence in the main. It took forever for you to turn me around to that card, but now I love it. It just answers the things that give us problems. When someone pulls out some random enchantment or artifact, it's really great to be able to say 'Oh yeah, I've got something for that'. Some cards that Harmonic is great against, offhand:

Engineered Plague
Isochron Scepter
Aether Vial
Umezawa's Jitte
Worship
Story Circle

Now, not all of the cards in that list (Story Circle) are widely played, but they're all cards that, once online, can cause severe problems for us (well, except Scepter, maybe).

Of course, cutting out everything extraneous and just going with untargetability, pump, and flying (you know, the stuff that wins us games) does sound very appealing.

Oh, and Talon Sliver is not there for the Goblins matchup. The time I find Talon most useful is when the opponent has some sort of severe fat on the table (think Exalted Angel or Sundering Titan or some crazy shit like that). Some of the time, you just can't outsize some random creature your opponent drops, and it's nice to be able to block with 3 guys and not unfairly trade. I'm not sure how relevant that is usually, but it's a point.

[Patoon]

I dont think we need to make allowances for giant fatties like that, i mean that is why we build removal into our decks.

[Pinder]

I dont think we need to make allowances for giant fatties like that, i mean that is why we build removal into our decks.

Exactly. The argument for Talon is hardly relevant, I was just pointing out the fact that if we boarded Talon, it wouldn't actually be for Goblins.

But as long as our creatures outsize and outlast most everything else, then we have swords to pick off the few creatures we can't handle.

And as for a sideboard, that's dependent, but it should definitely pack 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Pithing Needle, some number of Harmonics (if you're not running them main, and maybe even if you are), and go from there. Going from Volt's latest list, my board for that would have:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
2 Harmonics (at least)

Which give us 5 slots that are entirely dependent on the metagame, and can include any number of the following:

Worship
Engineered Explosives
Tormod's Crypt
Disrupt
Jotun Grunt

And any number of other cards.

[Patoon]

Ok so from what i can see we have the whole list pretty much agreed upon, i guess now we need to start producing some kind statistical data to prove what we are saying. Has anyone already been doing this?

[Pinder]

Myself, Maverick, and Volt did extensive testing (anywhere from 20-30 games pre and post-board against established arhectypes) with earlier lists, but I don't think anyone has done anything quite so monumental with any of the new lists since Sinew Sliver. There's been testing, to be sure, but nothing we can really base statistics on.

[Patoon]

ok well i guess we should get started, what decks does everyone have or have access to playing multiple games against.

I have Solidarity, Confident, Goblins, Angel Stompy, and Rifter

[BeeblesofLife]

If anyone needs a testing partner, I have mws....just email me ahead of time so i know what deck to put together.

[Pinder]

I also have MWS, but a somewhat unreliable access to the internet, so we would have to set it up in advance.

[chmoddity]

I realize that this is page 33. I can not read through the other 32 to find this answer, so I am asking it.

What cards is Stifle there for - specifically?

[BeeblesofLife]

I realize that this is page 33. I can not read through the other 32 to find this answer, so I am asking it.

What cards is Stifle there for - specifically?

Fetche lands, goblins, combo, wasteland...nuff said.

[chmoddity]

OK, but I have to wonder - if it is that good, why don't all decks with blue run four copies? They all face the same opponents.

[Volt]

I realize that this is page 33. I can not read through the other 32 to find this answer, so I am asking it.

What cards is Stifle there for - specifically?

Fetch lands
Wasteland
Goblin Ringleader
Goblin Matron
Goblin Piledriver
Goblin Lackey
Tendrils of Agony
Brain Freeze
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives



OK, but I have to wonder - if it is that good, why don't all decks with blue run four copies? They all face the same opponents.

I can't answer that. I will say that when we started working on this deck in the middle of last year, Stifle was almost non-existent in the format. Since that time, it seems to have increased in popularity quite a bit, appearing in a lot of sideboards, and even a few maindecks (Hanni Fish for one).

[Patoon]

You know kind of have to agree about stifle. I have been using it and very often i am wishing it was something else, namely counterspell.

[Tosh]

You know kind of have to agree about stifle. I have been using it and very often i am wishing it was something else, namely counterspell.
This statement; however, can be applied to many cards in many situations. It also depends on the deck you're playing against. Against a combo deck you may need a counterspell (gg, belcher?) or against Iggy Pop a stifle (gg, Tendrils?). It is important that you take everything into consideration, not just from what has been experienced in a couple of matches.

[Patoon]

lol cos i just played the one game before i made that statement haha

I found more often then not i wanted something else.

I mean that guy from before is right, if stifle is such hot tech why doesn't threshold run it, i mean essentially these decks are very similar.

I think stifle is situationally good, i mean i played a game against goblins where two early stifles dominated the game taking out their first two fetch lands. You cant ask for more then that, but then playing against solidarity, where "stifle is just what you need" i am holding stifle, and had to wait till the stack was full to stifle the brain freeze, only to have it remanded and cast again. Where meanwhile i would have been much happier with a counterspell to counter the high tide at the start.

Stifle is good dont get me wrong, but i dont think it is the consistently good card that this deck needs.

[Maverick676]

lol cos i just played the one game before i made that statement haha

I found more often then not i wanted something else.

I mean that guy from before is right, if stifle is such hot tech why doesn't threshold run it, i mean essentially these decks are very similar.

I think stifle is situationally good, i mean i played a game against goblins where two early stifles dominated the game taking out their first two fetch lands. You cant ask for more then that, but then playing against solidarity, where "stifle is just what you need" i am holding stifle, and had to wait till the stack was full to stifle the brain freeze, only to have it remanded and cast again. Where meanwhile i would have been much happier with a counterspell to counter the high tide at the start.

Stifle is good dont get me wrong, but i dont think it is the consistently good card that this deck needs.

Wow this about the third or fourth instance of the stifle debate. Stifle still being in the deck, I bet you can guess the conclusion we keep coming too.

I won't go over every reason stifle is in the deck, since its been repeated 3 or 4 times now in this thread and 2 or 3 times in the N&D thread. However, against goblins why are you stifling their fetchlands? Save those for the ringleaders and siege gang commanders.

[Tosh]

lol cos i just played the one game before i made that statement haha
Sorry if I implied that but Pinder, Mav, and Volt have tested the deck way more than you (this I am sure of) and they agree that Stifle is a key card in the deck and serves more purposes against more decks than Counterspell.


playing against solidarity, where "stifle is just what you need" i am holding stifle, and had to wait till the stack was full to stifle the brain freeze, only to have it remanded and cast again. Where meanwhile i would have been much happier with a counterspell to counter the high tide at the start.
Against solidarity it is more important to stop their land drops (fetchlands) and severely slow them down than to Stifle their Brainfreeze.

[Solpugid]

Stifle is disgustingly good in many situations, and not having adequate targets for it is rare. This is why I DO play it in my UGW thresh deck. I run 3 maindeck (at this number card draw allows me to find at least 1 per game).

As for saving them for ringleaders, that works fine. However, I've found that often a stifle on an early land (fetch or waste) can generate enough tempo to disrupt goblins right into a win (for you). I suppose that then depends on the speed of your draw, where "gassy" draws make stifling lands more feasible.

Now, I will say I think stifle is better in thresh than slivers. In thresh I have a worse match against goblins, and post-board I have tormod's crypt to worry about.
I dowant to clear up a bit of confusion on the combo matchup. In my opinion, stifle should not be used on brain freeze unless it actually gets to that point (where you have nothing else to do). Solidarity runs fetchlands, and stifling one after they place cards on top with brainstorm gives you an amazing advantage. If this play can be made, take it, and don't hold stifle for storm triggers. Once they have the opportunity (mana-wise) to remand key spells, you're in a bit of trouble.

If you don't like stifle, don't run it. I don't see this deck needing it so much that that choice will lose you a lot of games. But don't think that just because more decks don't run it that means it isn't that good, because in my experience it is. Some cards just give you little advantages that are difficult to see at first. Stifle, I think, is just taking its time making its presence known in Legacy. And you know what? As more and more cards are printed, more and more stretegies will be available to players. This increase in threat diversity calls for more flexible answers, and stifle is one of those for sure.

Sorry that was so long, but I dont like when stifle gets dissed so much. I would swear by that card in a lot of decks. Whether or not this is one...I don't know yet.

[BeeblesofLife]

And i must drop the BOMB....Pinders grandest moment ever was when he came out with this...Pinder said," Stifleing a fetche land is like Stone Rain and Timewalk had sex while Lavadart watched." For those of you advocateing counterspell over stifle...Well lets go over a small scenario...
This is me takeing my glove off of my "Pimp Hand of Justice".:cool:
This is you::eek:
This me sprinkling baby powder on the "Pimp Hand of Justice"::cool:
This is you::confused:
This is me slapping your punkass with the "Pimp Hand of Justice"and telling you all "Shut the hell up, WE HAVE FUCKING BEEN OVER THIS. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO PERSONAL FUCKING PREFERANCE AND THE METAGAME!".:mad:
This is you::cry:

Now everyone take into account what Pinder and Mav have to say. They have playtested this damn thing till they were blue in the face. Oh and Volt too.
Sidenote: Pinders quote ROCKZORZZ!

[Volt]

I mean that guy from before is right, if stifle is such hot tech why doesn't threshold run it, i mean essentially these decks are very similar.


Actually, I happen to think that Thresh should run Stifle. Most Thresh decks run some number of Pithing Needles, and I think Stifle is generally better than Needle.


I think stifle is situationally good, i mean i played a game against goblins where two early stifles dominated the game taking out their first two fetch lands. You cant ask for more then that, but then playing against solidarity, where "stifle is just what you need" i am holding stifle, and had to wait till the stack was full to stifle the brain freeze, only to have it remanded and cast again. Where meanwhile i would have been much happier with a counterspell to counter the high tide at the start.


Well, we do run counterspells as well, you know. It's true that a single Stifle isn't going to save you from stack domination. No single counterspell of any type is going to save you once Solidarity starts abusing the stack. You need multiple counterspells. Stifle is just one bullet to be used against Solidarity. And, yes, as others have pointed out, Stifle is actually best when used to kill a fetchland against Solidarity. It is amazing how often Solidarity will just roll over and die if you kill that first fetch. That said, two Stifles may well save your ass from being Brain Freezed to death.

Yes, Stifle is "situationally good." So is Daze, which would be the natural replacement for Stifle if you decided to make your Countersliver deck look more like Thresh. Have I mentioned that I hate Daze?

[Patoon]

Lol i think that is a rather touchy subject, anywho, i think all who have just either reiterated or summated previous argue, have very valid points, but i guess we can all conclude that stifle like daze like counterspell is going to be one of those situational, personal preference cards. For me, which hasn't proved itself yet.

On a slightly different topic has anyone tested, heaven forbid, the mirror?

[Hanni]

The mirror is ass... and I'm not even talking the exact same deck, ANY Sliver deck is just annoying to play against. The way you win is through early tempo advantage, resolving more threats than your opponent, and later on by having more Slivers in play overall. Diabolic Edict is decent in the mirror, but Tsabo's Decree is probably the best option. Either way, the mirror sucks, far more than any other mirror I've ever played.

[BeeblesofLife]

The whole trick with the mirror is...Dont play game one.
SB game two with Mages and stuff. side out crystaline. Mage nameing swords.
And then hope to god you are better than the other person.

[xsockmonkeyx]

On a slightly different topic has anyone tested, heaven forbid, the mirror?

Linky, link! (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=91772&postcount=313)

[BeeblesofLife]

I really dont think Mav needs to relive that moment...Fuck it! Yeah he does....He is was on par with pinder that night as far as play mistakes go...
If anyone one wants to hear of pinders epic loss...pm and i will gladly tell you.
And dont worry Mav, I said for one night and you clearly have gotten better since then.

[Pinder]

If anyone one wants to hear of pinders epic loss...pm and i will gladly tell you.


Here's how it went. I had a 2/1, he was at 1 with no blockers, and I scooped instead of attacking for the win. The whole story is a little more complicated than that, but the basic essence is still there. I was being dumb.

Now, as far as the mirror goes, there's one important thing to remember: slivers share. Every creature that hits the table is going to be exactly the same as every other creature on the table. So, all things being equal, it all comes down to who has more creatures on the table. Play as many slivers as you can, and try and keep your opponent from doing the same by gaining as much tempo as possible. In reality it's a bit more complicated and depends on the situation, but that's the basic gist of it.

[Maverick676]

I really dont think Mav needs to relive that moment...Fuck it! Yeah he does....He is was on par with pinder that night as far as play mistakes go...
If anyone one wants to hear of pinders epic loss...pm and i will gladly tell you.
And dont worry Mav, I said for one night and you clearly have gotten better since then.

Everyone makes play mistakes, including you. You are insulting people with no provocation. In the future lets all try to play nice with eachother.

Moving on. The mirror match game one is actualy more like a limited game than a constructed one. Since all creatures are relatively equal, whoever has the most slivers will win. Crystaline is the key to victory as it is the only sliver with a 2/2 body to start (unless you have hibernation in your build of course). Game two I like to side out my swords for mages and try to get an early win by stifling fetchlasnds and mageing slivers I don't have in hand. Against a random aggro/janky/casual sliver deck I side out the plated slivers for mages (naming their biggest base power and toughness slivers, and win by just having more slivers than they do.)

I should note that while my mirror match experience is extensive it is all pre planar chaos. I have yet to test the mirror with sinew sliver in the deck. I still believe the theory is still sound however.

[Daze]

I've been testing this deck on MWS and meet about 30% Sliver-decks >.<.
Usually, someone is a little faster in the beginning, then both sides have about equal number of slivers and you wait.... and wait... and wait. Finally, someone will have enough (1-3) Slivers more who just kill your opponent in one strike (remember, 16 Muscle Slivers...). Sideboarding is not that easy; you could try and go for the Mages, you could also just side in as many Slivers as possible, e.g. in place of swords.

[Maverick676]

I've been testing this deck on MWS and meet about 30% Sliver-decks >.<.
Usually, someone is a little faster in the beginning, then both sides have about equal number of slivers and you wait.... and wait... and wait. Finally, someone will have enough (1-3) Slivers more who just kill your opponent in one strike (remember, 16 Muscle Slivers...). Sideboarding is not that easy; you could try and go for the Mages, you could also just side in as many Slivers as possible, e.g. in place of swords.

I don't usually have slivers in the sideboard. Besides thats MWS testing, which I tend to take with a grain of salt, Being that mostly everyone on there is usually retarded. What kind of sliver decks are you testing against? if they are just janky casual sliver decks then it really doesn't matter as you won't see those in an actual tournaments.

[Hanni]

If Slivers ever gets popular enough to actually be worried about the mirror, Tsabo's Decree is what you board.

Otherwise, don't concern yourself with tweaking for the mirror. Simply play it out and hope you get a better draw... more Slivers = you win (as well as controlling more of the 2/2 Slivers aka Crystalline and Hibernation Sliver).

To a slightly lesser degree, Diabolic Edict isn't bad, since it still hits Mongooses. Still subpar for the moment though and not nearly as strong as Tsabo's Decree for the mirror.

[Pinder]

If Slivers ever gets popular enough to actually be worried about the mirror, Tsabo's Decree is what you board.


Unless you're playing UWg :wink:.

Of course, between Tsabo's Decree and having more slivers with higher base P/T, UWb (or UWbg) might actually have an edge over UWg in the mirror.

[xsockmonkeyx]

How about Propaganda? The player that has to pay 2 for each attacker would be at a distinct disadvantage in the mirror.

[Pinder]

Another option in the mirror is Ensnare. Just wait till you have lethal damage sitting on your side (shouldn't be too hard when both sides are dropping Muscle and Sinew), then EOT bounce two Islands, tap evverything, then untap and swing. Of course, you should probably make sure that you have FoW backup or something, because I doubt your opponent will be very keen to let that resolve.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Propaganda has the distinct advantage of not completely sucking though. No offense, but a long term solution is better than an alpha strike. Plus you could bring it in against goblins should you feel the need to squish them further.

[Hanni]

The problem with Propaganda is that it doesn't help you actually push damage through, since they don't have to pay 2 to block. If you both have a ton of creatures with a toughness larger than power (which will happen via Plated), they can block with 2 Slivers to kill your 1 Sliver and they don't lose a Sliver. With Ensnare, you can alpha strike for the win. This may actually be a better option than Tsabo's Decree since it's only 4cc (or free) and it's in your primary color. It's also decent against any deck where having Winged Sliver won't necessarily win you the match (like against Faerie Stompy or something), but all of these options sound terrible against everything but the mirror.

Ensnare is probably better than Decree due to a less expensive mana cost. If Slivers some how becomes as popular as Threshold one day, sideboarding Ensare rather than Tormod's Crypt's will probably be the correct board plan.

[Pinder]

Perhaps, but I don't think we'll have to worry enough about the mirror to start boarding against ourselves. That might change after GP Columbus, though :wink:.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Hmmm. Seems like the only thing that is going to really help you in the mirror is to side out StP and play moar Slivers. Alpha strikes and defense are great but in the end the person who plays more slivers will probably be the winner.

[kicks_422]

When I face the mirror, Game 1 as everyone said, it's all about who gets the more Slivers into play. That's REALLY a headache.

Game 2, if I've won Game 1, I side in Meddling Mage and Worship and let the match go to time. :tongue:

[Complete_Jank]

Has anyone thought about cutting the Stifles?







J/K

LOL

We'll see about the GP, but I like this deck.

[Hanni]

After losing an assload of matchups against both UGw and UGr Threshold, I am under the impression that my current build of Slivers has an unfavorable matchup against Threshold both pre and post board against both splashes.

After narrowing down the problem each game I lost, I have come to the conclusion that Talon Sliver is the answer. Each time, they played the tempo role, keeping me off either Crystalline (and proceeding to use removal) or keeping me off just enough Muscles/Sinews so that I couldn't put up a defense. Hibernation Sliver was mediocre... without him, I would have fallen on my face more often than I did, but the tempo loss was terrible against Threshold. Against board control, the tempo loss of Hibernation is irrelevant. Against Threshold, it is a disaster.

I am also under the impression that Daze is a necessity for this matchup, with or without Talon Sliver.

Talon Sliver is a much stronger sideboard option than Tormod's Crypt against Threshold and although Crypt answers random graveyard strategies, I'd rather run Talon Sliver.

So basically, I'm going to squeeze Talon Sliver into my build.

SB
-1 Duress
-2 Tormod's Crypt
+3 Talon Sliver

This still leaves me without an answer to random graveyard strategies, such as Loam, although I believe Meddling Mage may be a decent answer if necessary. More testing will be necessary for me to make any conclusions about that. As far as Threshold goes, my new board plan is this:

-3 Winged Sliver
+3 Talon Sliver

With this configuration, I now have 5 Slivers for stack tricks (2 Hibernation, 3 Talon). The Hibernations are just a patch fix until I can draw into Talon, which is fine since they are still solid in this area and I still retain my psuedo-Crystalline #5 and #6. Once I get a Talon Sliver and enough pump Slivers, I can swing through with 4/4 or bigger first strike guys for the win. Flying is mandatory against Goblins, first strike is mandatory against Threshold. I don't believe flying is necessary against Thresh. My current maindeck configuration is tweaked to beat Goblins (3 Winged) instead of Threshold (3 Talon). I believe this should be the right call.

I still think the Duress is great against combo, although this is the most questionable card choice for me at the moment. I still think Hibernation is great against board control (as well as additional maindeck resilience). I'm going to stick with the black splash for now, though if I find it unecessary in future playtesting I may drop it.

The biggest thing I need to tackle right now is graveyard strategies ala Genesis -> Witness -> Wrath of God, Loam -> Wasteland, etc. However, I think the deck should be able to deal with this sufficiently maindeck, with the potential Meddling Mage incase that isn't enough. At least I hope so. If not, I may drop the Duress for Extirpate or Tormod's Crypt or something.

Here's my current list, for reference:

UWgb 4c Slivers

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (21)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

Spells (21)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
4 Meddling Mage
2 Hibernation Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
3 Harmonic Sliver

I realize that the sideboard is extremely creature heavy and probably looks like an eyesore at first glance but I think it's a fairly solid plan (especially since running artifacts/enchantments clashes with Harmonic). The creature sideboard pretty much answers everything and the fact that it's done primarily with Slivers keeps the synergy inline with the deck. Living Wish might seem like a good idea with a sideboard that looks like this, though I think 2cc sorcery speed is not the correct route for this deck. Additionally, Gemhide Sliver can be put into the sideboard if B/w Deadguy or other LD variants once again become popular.


I also want to say that my testing against Goblins has so far proven that the manabase is in fact not a problem, or at least not any more of a problem than a 3c build would be (8 fetches and Island/Plains answers Wasteland perfectly, with Port being a liability against even a UW manabase). Goblins is a favorable matchup for me and I'm hoping that my Threshold matchup is now favorable (post board). Combo seems favorable (post board), and I don't auto-lose to board control.

Enjoy.

[Happy Gilmore]

Out of curiosity what board were they running (UGW)? Was it anything like this?

3x stifle
3x Beb
3x Naturalize
2x Nantuko Monestary
1x Mystic Enforcer
2x Grunt/Shaman

What version of UGW was it? I can def. see you having trouble against thresh if its running Worship but I'm supprized your loosing game one to them. I might also recomend Portent over Serum Visions in your build. It will be better most of the time.

[Hanni]

I'm not sure exactly what sideboards the players I faced were running. Most of my testing comes from MWS matches, where I usually face random opponent's. This may affect the quality of some of my playtesting but it gives me a rough idea. Most of the time, I play against competent opponent's, although I do face alot of randomness. Regardless, I still get Tier 1 and Tier 2 matchups frequently enough.

The problem with Threshold is that they were constantly countering my threats, even when I countered back, which was keeping me off of just enough Muscle/Sinew to be able to block and survive their Mongooses and Werebears. In the mean time, they were winning the life point race and eventually managed to finish me off before I could stabalize. I've won several matches but I've lost far more than I've won. I believe that the Talon Slivers in the sideboard will address this issue very well.

The other thing I want to bring up is that I am considering dropping Duress for Stifle. Both are good in the combo matchup, and although Duress may be a little better, Stifle is in my primary color, pitches to FoW, answers randomness (especially Wasteland), and can come in for Daze against Goblins in games 2 and 3. The Duress/Stifle spots are still questionable (and they may become graveyard hate depending on further playtesting), but I think Stifle will be more valuable to the deck than Duress.

SB
-3 Duress
+3 Stifle

I may go back to Duress but I'm going to try the Stifles in the board for a while.

[Aggro_zombies]

I've been experimenting with this deck a bit, and I'm currently working with the following list:

4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt (I might switch this to Planar Void or Leyline)
2 Vindicate
1 Necrotic Sliver
2 Talon Sliver (I might drop one Necrotic and these for 3 Engineered Plague, not sure)

I know the lack of green might be...controversial, to say the least, but I've been really happy with this. Truffle Shuffle or some other variety of BoardControl.dec shows at every tournament and this build (especially with Hibernation Sliver) is much more resilient against that type of deck than the UWG one. I'd go four-color, but Gobs makes up at least half the field every tournament, and four colors is just too much in an environment rife with Wastelands. Should I replace the maindeck Vindicates with more draw? Or counters?

What are your thoughts on this build?

[Jiaozy]

SB
-3 Duress
+3 Stifle

I may go back to Duress but I'm going to try the Stifles in the board for a while.
Just one question, from a neofite to the deck.

Wasn't Duress the main and almost lone reason of splashing black, to add some control/combo hate to the deck?

Taking them out would leave you with only 2 Hibernation in the MD and a far more unstable mana base for some bouncing tricks, is it really worth it?

[Pinder]

Just one question, from a neofite to the deck.

Wasn't Duress the main and almost lone reason of splashing black, to add some control/combo hate to the deck?

Taking them out would leave you with only 2 Hibernation in the MD and a far more unstable mana base for some bouncing tricks, is it really worth it?

I don't really think so, but I never actually thought splashing black would add that much to the MD anyway. Maybe Hanni could tell you more, as he is the one who has been doing the most with the 4c build.

@Aggro Zombies: That list looks solid. I'm still not sure I'd want black over green, but if you choose to do so it looks like you've hit it pretty well. I think you might consider trying to fit Necrotic in the main. If you're running him as your only removal, that's bad, but a 2/2 for 3 that will sometimes allow you to get rid of a problem no questions asked is actually nice. That, and between him, Crystalline, and Hibernation, you'd have at least 9 (assuming 2 Necrotic) slivers with a base P/T of 2, which might lighten the impact of having only 4 Muscle Slivers. Your guys would just start out bigger.

Oh, and Necrotic dodges Needle like a pro. :laugh:

And as far as card draw, you should be fine with 4 SV 4 BS, I think.

Something tells me that we're going to end up like UGr and UGw Thresh, with two similar decklists with different splashes.

[Hanni]

Originally Posted by Jiaozy
Just one question, from a neofite to the deck.

Wasn't Duress the main and almost lone reason of splashing black, to add some control/combo hate to the deck?

Taking them out would leave you with only 2 Hibernation in the MD and a far more unstable mana base for some bouncing tricks, is it really worth it?

If I didn't think it was worth it, I wouldn't splash for black. You cannot rely on resiliency with only 4 Crystalline Sliver. Hibernation Sliver acts somewhat as Crystalline Sliver (#6 maindeck), as well as the tons of other versatile functions it has. I find that it increases the consistency of the deck greatly. I also don't feel that 2 MD black spells are hurting the manabase at all... especially when they pitch to FoW if need be. They are amazing against board control decks, which is this decks worst matchup. 4 Hibernation post board makes the board control matchup solid. Among that, it's extremely versatile and it's still a 2cc 2/2. I like the black splash, others don't. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

As far as the actual 4c manabase goes, I'm only running 2 black producing lands in the deck... both of which still provide either blue or white respectively, so they aren't dead. With 8 fetchlands and 8 cantrips, the manabase is more about how you build it in any given game rather than how you topdeck into it. The deck doesn't decrease very much consistency from the U/W core anyway... the deck still has a good amount of both sources, along with their respective basics.

I'm also only splashing green for 4 maindeck green spells and 3 sideboard green spells. This is another main reason I can get away with going 4c... I'm running a very light splash of both green and black (especially black). Duress isn't necessary in the board and only further strains the manabase.

I've also yet to have serious color screw issues against Goblins, especially now that I board in 3 Stifle for 3 Daze in games 2 and 3 vs them (which can handle Wasteland).

I hope this helps clear up my reasoning a bit.

[Jiaozy]

Can someone explain me why Serum Vision is run in the place of Portent?

Portent can do so many tricks it's amazing, messing with your opponent's draw pretty badly and giving you more time to properly set up.

Sorry for the newbie question, I've been following the thread since the beginning but I may have missed the point in wich they've been discussed...

EDIT:
Thanks a lot for the explanation Hanni.

[Pinder]

It hasn't really been discussed much. The reason that I run SV over Portent is because it nets you a card right away, and the Scry lets you put things on top or bottom. There's not a whole lot of difference between the two honestly, as you can shuffle to avoid junk with Portent much the same way you can put them on the bottom with SV. So mostly it's because SV nets you the card imeediately.

Of course, Portent's ability to target your opponent is pretty spiffy as well.

[Tosh]

The reason that I run SV over Portent is because it nets you a card right away, and the Scry lets you put things on top or bottom. There's not a whole lot of difference between the two honestly, as you can shuffle to avoid junk with Portent much the same way you can put them on the bottom with SV.

The difference between Scry and shuffle is that with scry you can keep one and with shuffle it's all or nothing.

[Aggro_zombies]

@Aggro Zombies: That list looks solid. I'm still not sure I'd want black over green, but if you choose to do so it looks like you've hit it pretty well. I think you might consider trying to fit Necrotic in the main. If you're running him as your only removal, that's bad, but a 2/2 for 3 that will sometimes allow you to get rid of a problem no questions asked is actually nice. That, and between him, Crystalline, and Hibernation, you'd have at least 9 (assuming 2 Necrotic) slivers with a base P/T of 2, which might lighten the impact of having only 4 Muscle Slivers. Your guys would just start out bigger.

Oh, and Necrotic dodges Needle like a pro. :laugh:

Should I drop the maindeck Vindicates for Necrotics and replace the Necrotic in the board with Vindicate? Just out of curiosity...

[Pinder]

Should I drop the maindeck Vindicates for Necrotics and replace the Necrotic in the board with Vindicate? Just out of curiosity...

Not sure about that one, honestly. I don't think that you should really depend on Necrotic for removal, and that some combination of Necrotic and Vindicate would be best, but I honestly can't think of what to cut other than those Vindicates.

Klaan and I were talking earlier about Necrotic vs Vindicate, and I argued that, since Vindicate ends up costing an overall of 6 mana, and the deck will most often sit on around 3 or 4 land, that playing and saccing Necrotic (or some other sliver once Necrotic hits) is all but impossible, and therefore it's nice to be able to just tap 3 for Vindicate when you need one that turn. He countered with the point that if you have a Vindicate and don't need it, it's dead in your hand, whereas if it was a Necrotic, it could at least beat for 2.

Both of these are solid points, and show that there are times where it would be best to have a Necrotic in hand, and other times where it's better to have Vindicate. This is how I came to the conclusion that the deck should probably run a few of both in order to have what it needs when it needs it.

Only problem there being, that it doesn't look like there's enough room for both :(.

[Aggro_zombies]

Not sure about that one, honestly. I don't think that you should really depend on Necrotic for removal, and that some combination of Necrotic and Vindicate would be best, but I honestly can't think of what to cut other than those Vindicates.

Klaan and I were talking earlier about Necrotic vs Vindicate, and I argued that, since Vindicate ends up costing an overall of 6 mana, and the deck will most often sit on around 3 or 4 land, that playing and saccing Necrotic (or some other sliver once Necrotic hits) is all but impossible, and therefore it's nice to be able to just tap 3 for Vindicate when you need one that turn. He countered with the point that if you have a Vindicate and don't need it, it's dead in your hand, whereas if it was a Necrotic, it could at least beat for 2.

Both of these are solid points, and show that there are times where it would be best to have a Necrotic in hand, and other times where it's better to have Vindicate. This is how I came to the conclusion that the deck should probably run a few of both in order to have what it needs when it needs it.

Only problem there being, that it doesn't look like there's enough room for both :(.
This was my thought process as well. I briefly considered a 1/1 split, but that's just terrible. For now I'll go with the Vindicates and hope that if I leave mana open I can bait my opponent into thinking a dead Vindicate is a counter of some sort. Mind games ftw.

[Volt]

My most recent decklist:

// land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains

// creatures
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

// instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell

// sorceries
4 Serum Visions

// sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Pithing Needle
3 Stifle
2 ??


You will note that I have moved Stifles to the sideboard and put Dazes back in the deck. The reason for this is because I have also moved Harmonic Sliver to the sideboard. In the past, I felt comfortable running Stifle over Daze because I had maindeck Harmonics to clean up stray Aether Vials, Survivals, Chalices, equipment, etc. that slipped through the cracks in the first few turns. Without maindeck Harmonics, we need the additional early game protection that Daze offers. Stifle is still quite good, though, and should be sided in appropriately.

With a mana curve that tops out at 2, the deck runs quite well on 18 lands.

I am firmly convinced that UWg is the strongest, most consistent build for this deck. Barring an unforeseen shift in the metagame towards board-clearing control decks, complicating the deck to accommodate Hibernation Sliver just isn't called for.

Btw, there has been some recent controversy on other boards about the selection of Serum Visions for this deck. The argument against it goes something like this: "Serum Visions is a tempo-killer, and is only played in Thresh because it helps fill the graveyard. You're better off playing additional threats or actual card draw instead of Serum Visions." Here was my response to that argument over at SCG:


Toad says Serum Visions hurts tempo but increases card quality, as if those are two completely unrelated things. It seems obvious to me that improved card quality pretty quickly turns into improved tempo...

... if Serum Visions is good in Thresh and Miracle Gro, then there is obviously some line across which SV becomes a good card to play. Also, if Brainstorm is generally considered to be an auto-include in virtually every deck that supports blue, then there must be a line across which a cantrip can become generally play-worthy. Personally, I think Serum Visions is at least as good as Brainstorm on its own (albeit not typically as good as Brainstorm + fetchland). Finally, a card like Serum Visions only costs you tempo if casting it is preventing you from doing something else to improve your game state. Quite often, the "tempo loss" from Serum Visions is negligible, because there is no other good play to make with that one mana that you're spending. Yes, there are situations where casting Serum Visions is a poor play. So don't cast it in those situations. As Toad would say, it's simple.

I will rephrase and reiterate something I said a few posts back. Even if we accept the textbook definition of tempo and accept the premise that Serum Visions = tempo loss, does that necessarily mean Serum Visions is a bad card for this deck? Isn't it possible that there might be overriding reasons to play Serum Visions in a CounterSliver deck? Among those reasons, I would include the following:

1. This deck doesn't run very many lands, which means 1-land opening hands are going to happen fairly often. Serum Visions allows us to salvage some of those hands.
2. Slivers have a combo-licious quality to them, and it pays to dig for slivers of varying types to improve our board position. Serum Visions is perhaps the best 1-mana "digger" in the game.
3. We also want to dig for other things, like counterspells. Similar to Threshold, cantrips allow us to find them earlier and more often.

I think it is too simple and easy to just say "Serum Visions is bad for your tempo" and ignore the positive aspects of the card. Everything in Magic is a tradeoff.

Although Serum Visions has been a mainstay in MeatHooks for months now, and I don't see that changing any time soon, I welcome any further discussion on this topic.

[Windux]

I'm wondering why nobody has considered Spell Snare as an Sideboard-Option.

It's great against the following decks:
Sliver (mostly all relevant critters, daze, counterspell, predict)
UWB Fish (mostly all creatures excluding Mother, Jitte, daze)
Suicide (Sinkhole, Hymn, Shade, BoB, Black Knight, [jitte], Gerrads verdict)
NQG/r (magma jet, Fire/ice, Werbear/dryad, daze, ak/predict)


Agaisnt this decks it's a "creaturehardcounter" for 1cc (Flashcounter ;) ).

[Maverick676]

I can't believe people are questioning serum visions in the deck. Barring plated sliver serum visions is this decks best first turn play. Since you aren't running stifle anymore maindecked, It gets even better since you don't have to worry about leaving mana open to stifle a fetchland turn 1. I wouldn't cut serum visions from the deck unless they print a timeshifted brainstorm in green or something.

[Volt]

I can't believe people are questioning serum visions in the deck. Barring plated sliver serum visions is this decks best first turn play. Since you aren't running stifle anymore maindecked, It gets even better since you don't have to worry about leaving mana open to stifle a fetchland turn 1. I wouldn't cut serum visions from the deck unless they print a timeshifted brainstorm in green or something.

And maybe not even then. Serum Visions is actually a better turn 1 play than Brainstorm. One of the things I like about SV is that it never becomes a bad play (with the exception of turn 2, where you will almost always be playing a 2cc sliver). In fact, it could be argued that Serum Visions gets better and better as the game goes on, because the so-called "tempo loss" becomes less and less relevant as you have more mana available, but fixing the top 3 cards of your deck never becomes irrelevant.

[Hanni]

am firmly convinced that UWg is the strongest, most consistent build for this deck. Barring an unforeseen shift in the metagame towards board-clearing control decks, complicating the deck to accommodate Hibernation Sliver just isn't called for.



My most recent decklist:

// land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains


Including fetchlands, you're deck has 12 white sources, 11 green sources, and 17 blue sources.

My manabase is thus:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Including fetchlands, my deck has 13 sources of white, 11 sources of green, and 16 sources of blue (with 10 sources of black).

The biggest difference between my manabase and your manabase is the fact that I run 1 additional fetchland and 1 less basic Island. The only spell in the deck that requires 2 basic Islands is Counterspell, which I do not feel is worth fetching out 2 Islands in a given game (since UU-only is so narrow that you're going to want at least 1 of those to also provide another color). The extra fetchland is only a drawback vs Stifle but it's stronger against Wasteland, the additional life loss shouldn't make a difference and the extra shuffle effect will give you more chances to crack one after a Brainstorm.

So basically, I'm not seeing a huge difference in the manabase... especially not a big enough difference to matter.

Whether you find Hibernation important or not is another issue though. I don't think Hibernation is only useful against board control; I think Hibernation is extremely versatile in its uses. The way I look at it, primarily, is that it is additional resiliency in the creature base, especially since you won't always see a Crystalline Sliver. Another great point to Hibernation is that it's UB rather than 1B, so if you don't have a black source to cast it, it can still pitch to FoW so it's not completely dead. However, you may not find it necessary. It has been amazing for me, though.

[Jiaozy]

I can't believe people are questioning serum visions in the deck.
I wasn't questioning, I just wanted to know the reasons for wich it's been picked over Portent (basically because it nets you the card right now, not the next upkeep) or other cantrips (like, Opt).

I think I've had enough explanation, thanks :)

[Pinder]

I'm wondering why nobody has considered Spell Snare as an Sideboard-Option.

It's great against the following decks:
Sliver (mostly all relevant critters, daze, counterspell, predict)
UWB Fish (mostly all creatures excluding Mother, Jitte, daze)
Suicide (Sinkhole, Hymn, Shade, BoB, Black Knight, [jitte], Gerrads verdict)
NQG/r (magma jet, Fire/ice, Werbear/dryad, daze, ak/predict)


Agaisnt this decks it's a "creaturehardcounter" for 1cc (Flashcounter ;) ).

You make some good points, but all in all I think that Spell Snare is good against the wrong decks. In the mirror it's certainly a great resource, but aside from that we have generally great matchups against the types of decks that we could use Spell Snares effectively against, namely fishy aggro decks like us. I'd rather devote board slots to improving our combo and control matchups, as those are the ones that we can improve G2.

And Volt, I think that those two extra slots in your board could possibly be filled with our old friend Engineered Explosives. That card is still really good, you know.

edit: @Jiaozy: I think Mav was talking about Toad, who has been bashing SV on TMD for a while now.

[Hanni]

You make some good points, but all in all I think that Spell Snare is good against the wrong decks.

Actually, Spell Snare is extremely strong at battling B/w Deadguy and B/r Sui, which are probably the hardest matchups for this deck beyond board control decks. It answers their disruption (minus Duress), their threats (minus Negator/Hyppie), and pretty much everything else... those decks are very heavy in the 2cc area.

However, I think the best option for those decks is Gemhide Sliver and/or Misdirection. I usually just bring in Stifles (in place of Counterspell), since Daze answers Sinkhole and Stifle answers Wasteland... other than that, the deck topdecks into aggro well enough to not be as hurt from the discard as badly as other aggro/control variants (21 aggro MD in my build).

[Pinder]

I'd actually rather run Disrupt against decks with hando, because it works against Duress and others as well. And it's just sick against Hymn.

'Discard 2? Naw, but I'll draw one, thanks.' Card parity rocks.

That, and it can stop a first turn ritualed Hyppie, etc. etc. It's about as useful as Spell Snare would be for gaining tempo in the early game, IMO.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Hey Volt, Anusien's article has me thinking about Sleight of Hand again. When is the last time you did any testing with Sleight vs. Visions and what did you think?

[Maverick676]

Hey Volt, Anusien's article has me thinking about Sleight of Hand again. When is the last time you did any testing with Sleight vs. Visions and what did you think?

I actually did quite a bit with SV vs. Sleight and preferred serum visions since it digs one card deeper. Although you could run with either with a fair amount of success. I don't think anything has changed in the deck that would warrant a retesting of this card. But I could be wrong so feel free to point anything out.

[Hanni]

Sleight of hand gives you slightly better card quality now for slightly worse card quality later. You get to choose between the top 2 when you cantrip rather than the top 1 but one of those cards has to go to bottom no questions asked (so if you wanted to keep it on top, you can't). The next turn, you're still facing the same randomness with the topdecks.

With Serum Visions, you're getting a much higher card quality overall; it's extremely versatile. The cantrip card won't necessarily be as good but the next 2 cards ontop (so we're digging 1 deeper) can be rearranged or you can send 1 or both to bottom. It's giving you a much greater consistency within the following few turns rather than a slightly better in-hand quality. It's also important to note that by digging 1 card deeper, casting 2 Serum Visions will yield the same amount of dig power as 3 Sleight of Hand.

Since this deck is more concerned with finding the correct combo pieces (or certain mix of Slivers), the additional dig power seems far more important to me. Some people may like Sleight better but I prefer Serum Visions.

As far as Portent goes, it's like a really bad Brainstorm. If there is one card in the top 3 that you want and the other 2 are garbage, you're forced with having good card quality on the next upkeep for terrible card quality in topdecks (with the exception of cracking a fetchland). If you don't like any of the top 3, you can shuffle them away (but if you do shuffle, Portent simply becomes a bad cantrip).

//I think sending cards to bottom is stronger than shuffling//

Those are the primary reasons I run Serum Visions over Sleight of Hand and Portent, though the ability to screw over an opponent's topdeck with Portent could warrant testing, I suppose.

[Volt]

Hey Volt, Anusien's article has me thinking about Sleight of Hand again. When is the last time you did any testing with Sleight vs. Visions and what did you think?

Yeah, I have tested SoH within the last couple months. I liked it just fine, but ultimately decided to stick with SV. To understand why SV is better, let's examine all the possible scenarios, taking into consideration the quality of top 2 cards of the library:

1st card is good, 2nd card is bad: SV > SoH
1st card is bad, 2nd card is good: SoH > SV
both cards are good: SV > SoH (because you get to look at the 3rd card)
both cards are bad: SV > SoH (because you get to look at the 3rd card)

As you can see, SV comes out ahead in 3 of the 4 possible scenarios. And even in that 1 scenario where I have SoH coming out ahead, it may end up being a wash if the 3rd card is bad.

The ability to look at an extra card really makes a difference. The fact that Serum Visions is easily the best cantrip in the game for helping you dig out of a 1-land opening hand should not be underestimated.

[Hanni]

UGw Sliver Survival

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (22)
3 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Gemhide Sliver
1 Hibernation Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

Spells (20)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

I'm not sure whether Survival was ever considered or not but it seems like a solid idea to toy around with. Survival is a very strong draw engine and it fits into the colors. Since the deck has a combo-ish creature base, it seems like it could be a very strong addition to the deck. Obviously, the deck doesn't need Survival to function. However, it replaces Serum Visions as a much more potent draw engine. What I really like is the interaction between Survival and Gemhide Sliver.

I'm not quite sure if the deck works well yet... or more importantly, if it works better than the normal list.

The biggest eyesore right now is the fact that the deck only runs 19 blue spells (low amount for FoW). However, if the deck has Survival out, it can pitch Squee for a blue Sliver to pitch to FoW if need be. This still needs tested.

Harmonic Sliver may seem bad with Survival but I think it should be okay, since you can always pitch Genesis and a bunch of other Slivers into the graveyard before playing another Sliver (and thus blowing up Survival) or simply having Hibernation in play to bounce Harmonic back to hand.

I'm just curious about what everyone else thinks about this. Gemhide Sliver + Survival is pretty nuts.

[Pinder]

I'm just curious about what everyone else thinks about this. Gemhide Sliver + Survival is pretty nuts.

I'm not really sure Survival is neccesary. Neato, sure, but not really neccesary. Of course, in some sort of RGSA (RG Sliver Advantage), Gemhide+Heart+Survival would be even more nuts. Especially if you throw in Aether Vial. Free instant hasty mana sources? Sign me up.

Of course, it does die to Pithing Needle.

[Aggro_zombies]

First, I'd like to say that I've updated my build to take your feedback into consideration. I'm now going to try something like this:

Lands
4 [R] Tundra
3 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [CHK] Island (1)
1 [ST] Plains (3)
1 [TE] Swamp (4)

Creatures
4 [LE] Plated Sliver
4 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
3 [TE] Winged Sliver
3 [SH] Hibernation Sliver
1 [PLC] Necrotic Sliver

Spells
4 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
1 [PLC] Necrotic Sliver
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
2 [TE] Talon Sliver
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [AP] Vindicate
3 [SC] Stifle

Without access to Harmonic Sliver, I was feeling the need for early-game counter control to back up FoW, but I was unsure about Daze after having read the thread. However, I added back in for two reasons:

- Stifle is only really good in some matchups, particularly the ones were it can do more that hit fetches. Too often I'd have a dead Stifle in my hand when I really wanted another counter, even a Force Spike, and

- Volt decided to add it back in as well, which seems to indicate that, for all its deadness late game, Daze makes up for your slower development early game. Having a dead counter late game is not so important once you realize that by that point you'll be dominating the board.

Stifles are still in the board because of their general usefulness, particularly against Gobs (where they're better than Counterspell, I'd say).


UGw Sliver Survival

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (22)
3 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Gemhide Sliver
1 Hibernation Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

Spells (20)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
One thing I have against Survival is the usual complaint that a Survival deck must work equally well without its signature card, simply because you can't count on drawing it/not having Needled/not having it otherwise destroyed every game. I think a fine example of this is the recent "Zenigata" decklist posted on these boards, where Survival acts as simply another madness outlet that also happens to tutor for guys. Without it, the deck can still function quite effectively (and consistently) as a straightforward madness deck due to its small toolbox and streamlined build. Even the toolbox pieces are useful without Survival because they're synergistic with the madness creatures. This deck, though...it just seems to me that it would be significantly less happy without an active Survival in play than Zenigata would. Indeed, it would probably be far worse than a standard UWG or WUB Countersliver build without said active Survival. Don't get me wrong, with a Survival out this deck could be quite powerful, but it just seems that you're sacrificing too much of the traditional control elements to fit in a toolbox that doesn't seem that necessary to begin with - a standard UWgb build could do everything this does without needing Survival.

[Finn]

If you try to adapt this deck to play Survival (and actually test it) you will have to screw the mana base beyond reason. It can not work.

Besides, what you already have is peachy.

[Pinder]

If you try to adapt this deck to play Survival (and actually test it) you will have to screw the mana base beyond reason. It can not work.

Besides, what you already have is peachy.

Way to be more concise than me :wink:.



Without access to Harmonic Sliver, I was feeling the need for early-game counter control to back up FoW,


That's the reason why. If you aren't running Harmonics main, then Daze is an unfortunate must for the early game to keep certain things off the table that, with Harmonics in the main, you could just wipe out later. I suppose that with this same reasoning you could also run Engineered Explosives (also a mainstay in earlier builds) to take care of problem things, but in this case I think that Daze would ultimately be more useful, as it at least pitches to Force.

[Hanni]

Why would you have to screw the manabase to run Survival? The deck is already UWg, with adequate enough resources to cast Survival. If you need additional green or other mana sources after that, you can fetch a Gemhide Sliver. Without seeing Survival (or resolving one), the deck still plays out like it did before... the only considerable losses are Serum Visions and Winged Sliver. I didn't make very many changes at all to fit in the Survival engine. So far in testing, I haven't seen a dramatic difference except the following:

Opening hands with 1 land need to be mulliganed more often due to the lack of cantrip.

If you play an early Survival (like turn 2), the deck starts off a little slower than normal.

If you resolve Survival, the deck goes crazy. Even after a few turns, you're creature base gets crazy. The ability to consistently drop 1-2 Muscle/Sinew Slivers a turn is rediculous. It's also nice to be able to instantly toolbox for any 1-of Sliver you need, like Talon or Harmonic (or Winged in the form of Wonder).

I'm not saying that Survival is necessary, I just figured I'd suggest the idea. I'm still pretty deadset on sticking with my UWgb 4c Slivers list (no Survival) but the Survival variation has been very interesting in my limited playtesting with it so far.

[Pinder]

I'm not saying that Survival is necessary, I just figured I'd suggest the idea. I'm still pretty deadset on sticking with my UWgb 4c Slivers list (no Survival) but the Survival variation has been very interesting in my limited playtesting with it so far.

And quite frankly, Slivers is the single best type of creature to be running a Survival toolbox with IMO. This is simply because, once you tutor up something in your toolbox (like, say, Harmonic), then every other creature you have also becomes that card. The same could be said for Necrotic or Cautery, or Darkheart, or whatever. You only need one of them to have 3-4 of them on the table. This makes toolbox Slivers infinitely more reusable than other toolbox creatures. But I still think that Survival, while fun, is uneccesary to actually win.

And AZ, I'd like to see more Necrotic in that build, but I suppose that there just isn't room. Plus with cantrips you should be able to find one when you need it. My only worry is that it's not quite the same as Harmonic, as sometimes Necrotic itself is the only creature you can afford to sac, which effectively prevents you from ever using it again. Harmonic dodges this problem by sticking around, so a 1 of there isn't quite as bad. But I'd push for 2 Necrotics simply because sometimes you'll lose one and need to find another.

edit: Looking at your latest list, perhaps a 2/2 split between Hibernation/Necrotic? Niether stack, so you won't really ever find youself wanting more than one at a time, and Hibernation can save itself, so it's likely to stick around for a while once you have one.

[CrunchBite]

Necrotic would actually be pretty nice in a Survival build that runs Genesis and Gemhide. Gemhide gets around the high cost of using it and with Genesis you can just bring a sacced sliver back if you have to sac something good. Also allows for decent reusability with Plated Sliver. Only need 7 mana to bring a plated back, cast it and sac it in the same turn. Also if you're running Gemhide, some more expensive slivers might be viable as 1 ofs like Synapse (card draw), Pulmonic (anti-wrath) or Essence (general awsome).

Either way, I'm on the fence about it. I really like the idea but I have a feeling it won't actually make the deck any better. Gonna go proxy it up and play around with it....

[Hanni]

I made the following changes to the Survival variant so far:

-1 Genesis
-1 Hibernation Sliver
-1 Harmonic Sliver
+1 Plated Sliver
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Uktabi Orangutan

I basically didn't feel the need for Genesis, as it was wasting tons of space and was utterly worthless in hand without a Survival. I also didn't feel a need for Hibernation Sliver, at least maindeck, since the addition of Survival increases the chance of getting Crystalline in play (and Survival recovers from Wrath of God nicely). Harmonic maindeck had bad synergy with Survival so I put in Sex Monkey to deal with maindeck Pithing Needles. The extra Plated and StP gives me a better consistency without Survival (and more answers to 1st turn Lackey).

In the sideboard, Harmonic can still come in for heavy artifact/enchantment decks, as well as additional Sex Monkeys or Ronom Unicorns or something (if necessary).

The only other things I'm considering is trying to fit in another Gemhide Sliver, because they smooth out the manabase early game extremely well, and possibly adding another Squee (since Gemhide creates a ton of excess mana sources).

Realistically, the only major difference between the Survival and non-Survival UWg lists is no Serum Visions (which is replaced by Survival) and no Winged Slivers (replaced by Wonder). In the extra slots I toolboxed a Gemhide, Talon, and Sex Monkey.

I'm really liking the Survival version. Without Survival, the deck functions basically the same as the Survival-less version... the loss of Serum Visions isn't very noticeable (since you see Survival in its place anyway) and Winged Sliver isn't really that important to drop early game (and with 4 Survival, I have increased chances to gain flying anyway). The consistency of the deck is absurd... I enjoy playing 1-2 Slivers every turn without fail, they get large very quickly.

Whether or not other toolbox options would be good is still something that needs testing but the way the deck is currently seems fine. I have absolutely no clue how to put the sideboard together at this point but I do know that I want Stifle, Meddling Mage, and at least 1 Harmonic Sliver for Affinity/Stax/Faerie Stompy. I'm also debating on whether or not Bone Shredder or FtK could be viable options as tutorable removal, though so far I don't think it's necessary.

Before knocking the addition of Survival, you guys should playtest with it a few times. It's harder to keep 1 land hands, but other than that, Survival makes the deck busted. I'm really liking Survival.

One more thing, also, is that I only run 18 blue spells including Force of Will. This hasn't been a problem so far, since I usually have an extra blue spell in hand early game and Survival can fetch me Crystallines to pitch to FoW if I need a blue card mid-late game. More testing will reveal whether or not I need to up the blue spell count.

Here's the current listing... any ideas on how to sideboard?

UGw Sliver Survival

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (21)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Gemhide Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Uktabi Orangutan

Spells (21)
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

I think my manabase could use a little more tweaking, any ideas? Other than that, I feel that this maindeck is pretty solid.

[Tosh]

Why Sex monkeys over Harmonics? Harmonics get enchantments as well and turn all of you other slivers into that toolbox piece.

[Pinder]

Between Gemhide and Survival, you might honestly think about putting Sliver Queen as a one-of in there. You'd be able to tutor for it easily, and the color commitment wouldn't be that heavy, since you're already playing 3 of the colors, and the other two can be had with Gemhide goodness.

And let's face it, as a 7/7 (read: 10/10 flying) sliver for 5 mana with an ability that makes 1/1 (read: 5/5 flying) slivers for 2 colorless, slivers that also tap for mana to make more slivers, it's pretty fucking beastly.

edit:


Why Sex monkeys over Harmonics?

I thought the same thing, but it's because the synergy between Harmonic and Survival is, shall we say, less than great.

[Hanni]

Harmonic maindeck had bad synergy with Survival so I put in Sex Monkey to deal with maindeck Pithing Needles. The extra Plated and StP gives me a better consistency without Survival (and more answers to 1st turn Lackey).

In the sideboard, Harmonic can still come in for heavy artifact/enchantment decks, as well as additional Sex Monkeys or Ronom Unicorns or something (if necessary).

Harmonic Sliver is going to be overkill more often than not, since a large majority of the time you're only going to want Harmonic Sliver to pop 1 artifact or enchantment. Harmonic shines against decks where the opponent plays lots of artifacts/enchantments, which means it should be relegated to the sideboard. Sex Monkey deals with maindeck Pithing Needles (in response to Pithing Needle, I'll activate Survival and grab a Sex Monkey). Post board, you can bring in whatever artifact/enchantment hate you need, whether it be Ronom Unicorns, more Sex Monkey's, Harmonic Slivers, or whatever. I haven't put a sideboard together yet because I'm not entirely sure what the deck needs yet.


Between Gemhide and Survival, you might honestly think about putting Sliver Queen as a one-of in there. You'd be able to tutor for it easily, and the color commitment wouldn't be that heavy, since you're already playing 3 of the colors, and the other two can be had with Gemhide goodness.

And let's face it, as a 7/7 (read: 10/10 flying) sliver for 5 mana with an ability that makes 1/1 (read: 5/5 flying) slivers for 2 colorless, slivers that also tap for mana to make more slivers, it's pretty fucking beastly.

Sliver Queen may be strong and do strong things but the mana cost is too much. 5cc to cast and 2cc to put 1/1 Slivers into play is great but you want to keep Slivers untapped to still play defense... if you try encorporating Sliver Queen, you'll be tapping all of your Slivers for mana. Survival is already overkill so I don't see why Sliver Queen would be necessary. Overkill is a good thing when the deck doesn't have overkill (meaning Survival vs no Survival), but once it has it (Survival), I don't see why it needs anymore overkill (Sliver Queen). The biggest misconception about Survival is that it slows the deck down too much, but when you're playing 2cc creatures and Gemhide Sliver, you're not getting Slowed down too much by wasting your turn 2 playing Survival instead of a Sliver. When you try to encorporate Sliver Queen, the slowness misconception becomes reality.

[Pinder]

Meh, you're probably right about it being overkill. Oh well.

And my worry about Survival isn't that it's too slow, it's that it dies to Pithing Needle. I realize that the deck you have up there can operate just fine without it, but that begs the question, why not just run the deck without it, then?.

[Hanni]

I realize that the deck you have up there can operate just fine without it, but that begs the question, why not just run the deck without it, then?.


Because when the deck does have it, it almost always wins.

In response to it dying to Pithing Needle, you can either counter the Pithing Needle or blow them up post board with Sex Monkey's or *gasp* Engineered Explosives.

If the opponent boards in multiple Pithing Needles to deal with Survival, you're causing them to have dead cards (since Pithing Needle only has 1 target).

Another huge thing too is that, if you want to get super techy with it, you can board out Survival in game 3 for more threats (like Winged Sliver or something).

[CrunchBite]

And my worry about Survival isn't that it's too slow, it's that it dies to Pithing Needle. I realize that the deck you have up there can operate just fine without it, but that begs the question, why not just run the deck without it, then?.

Because the deck runs amazingly with it at fairly little cost. You might still be right, but so far I'm impressed with it.

Couple more thoughts on the decklist Hanni. I really dislike the single Wonder for evasion. If your Survival gets shut down before you can use it, you have no real alternative. Worse still, GY removal takes him out entirely. Even if you draw into him, he's not easy to get into the yard. For that reason I've been testing with 1 Winged and 1 Wonder.

Also I agree with the exclusion of Hibernation but for different reasons. Primarily I didn't like having off colored cards in the deck. With only a single Gemhide, he's a dead card unless you happen to draw the Gemhide or have a Survival. And if you have a Survival already, he's fairly useless since you can just go fetch replacements. Survival itself makes fairly good wrath recovery as long as you don't overextend. Same applies to the Sliver Queen suggestion, although Queen might be a good board card for the mirror match.

Harmonic and Genesis I'm less sure about. Genesis is indeed expensive, but he's very nice when you do need him. Only testing will tell. The anti-synergy with Harmonic is annoying but it's not too bad if you play smart. In Legacy where people play such a variety of decks, I'm hesitent to remove a nice repeated source of naturalize.

Lastly I disagree with the singleton Talon. At one he's only reliable as a Survival target, and if I can Survival I can just go get a Muscle/Sinew, which solves the same problems 90% of the time.

At the moment I'm running Hanni's original list but with +1 Winged, +1 Essence, -1 Hibernation, -1 Talon. I'll probably end up cutting Genesis too, I miss the 4th plated and stp. Essence really is very nice, but so far he kinda feels like "win more" so he'll probably get cut too. One Sliver I am considering is Ward Sliver. He's expensive for a small body, but as a singleton with Gemhide it shouldn't be too bad. This guy is game over against Thresh and Gobs.

Also, Psychogenic Probe would rape this deck :laugh: There are many games I shuffle at least once a turn.

[Hanni]

I chose Wonder over Winged Sliver because it's easier to develop... it doesn't require you're creature drop for the turn (since you discard it to get another creature), and it's 1cc less. This is why I'm running 1 Talon Sliver rather than 1 Valor. Right now, I'm still testing the merits of Wonder vs Winged and I'm not entirely sure which one works better in more situations. This could go either way, I still need more testing.

Well, I think Harmonic is still a great option, but I don't see the deck needing the virtual artifact/enchantment answers maindeck, and if it does, I'd still want to keep Sex Monkey. The Sex Monkey answers the maindeck Pithing Needles of Threshold, while Harmonic Sliver defeats the purpose. It also blows up Vial against Goblins without destroying your own Survival. Harmonic shines against decks with a higher density of artifacts/enchantments, like Affinity and Faerie Stompy. Against these decks, I think sideboarding in Harmonic Sliver will be suffcient (although this needs tested).

I never found myself ever wanting Genesis in playtesting but he may still be a good option vs 4c Landstill with Pernicious Deed... but I think he'd be more appropriate in the sideboard (again, this needs tested).

Talon Sliver is important because it allows you to combination block large creatures while you develop your board position. Playing Survival on turn 2 slows your tempo down a bit early on and it takes a few turns to establish a creature base that will outsize Werebears and such. Talon Sliver allows you to block with 1/1's and 2/2's to keep them from attacking. This won't always be the case but it has helped me to survive a few situations where I would have died because my opponent had too much of a tempo advantage. It may not be extremely important, but as a 1-of, it's not bad (again, needs testing).

Essence Sliver and Ward Sliver, much like Sliver Queen, seems like overkill. I may be wrong, and Essence Sliver may in fact be a great idea, I'm just not quite sure if it's necessary. Talon Sliver and Crystalline Sliver > Ward Sliver (for sure), but Essence Sliver could be a very good option for recovering from an early game ass whooping. I had considered Dark Heart Sliver in the board but Essence Sliver seems like it would be a stronger option vs things like Burn (again, needs testing).

Does anyone even run Psychogenic Probe? I mean, even if in some rare circumstance they did, Sex Monkey would answer it if my countermagic didn't.

[CrunchBite]

Probe was meant as a joke. I thought of it after I realized my hands were tired from shuffling :p

And also I didn't mean to imply Winged OVER Wonder, but rather in addition to. Wonder is an amazing card with Survival, but not having any alternative can lead to trouble. I might be worrying about nothing since GY hate isn't overly great against the deck and you only need a couple uses out of Survival to get it into the yard, but still...

[Maverick676]

Ok you guys, enough clogging of the thread. Survival does seem like an interesting and possibly powerful variant of the deck. If you want to keep developing it why don't you start a new thread to address the subject.

[Volt]

Yeah, this thread is hopelessly long and messy as it is. It would probably be worthwhile to start a new thread for the Survival variant. As long as I'm here, though, what do you think of this list, Hanni? :)

Lands ( 18 )
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures ( 24 )
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Meddling Mage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Gemhide Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Mystic Snake
1 Winged Sliver

Spells ( 18 )
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares


The 2 Meddling Mages are in there to be tutored up against combo. I chose Winged Sliver over Wonder because Wonder is a terrible draw without an active Survival. The Mystic Snake is in there as a tutorable counterspell on legs (so to speak), but is perhaps the iffiest choice in my list.

[Happy Gilmore]

Yeah, this thread is hopelessly long and messy as it is. It would probably be worthwhile to start a new thread for the Survival variant. As long as I'm here, though, what do you think of this list, Hanni? :)

Lands ( 18 )
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures ( 24 )
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Meddling Mage
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Gemhide Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Mystic Snake
1 Winged Sliver

Spells ( 18 )
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares


The 2 Meddling Mages are in there to be tutored up against combo. I chose Winged Sliver over Wonder because Wonder is a terrible draw without an active Survival. The Mystic Snake is in there as a tutorable counterspell on legs (so to speak), but is perhaps the iffiest choice in my list.

I would say its bad, has no mana acceleration, and is slower than a lava flow. But then I realize its a joke, and in that case I think its the awsome sauce. :wink: Of a more constructive nature...I would fear EE at 2 :eek: . And a one of Witness would probably help more than the Meddling Mage.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I had a deck like this (slivers + survival) when gemhide came out. It might actually be playable with 8 muscle slivers now. Pure aggro with disruption is the way to go; trying to make it aggro-control and survival is like slapping 30 cards from two decks together.

"Chia Pets"

(mana)

4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Gemhide Sliver
3 Heart Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Quick Sliver
(other slivers)

3-4 Pyroclasm
4 Cabal therapy/duress
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Aether Vial

2 Jitte

Or something like that. It was all about pumping out like 3-4 muscle slivers and then going to town.

[Hanni]

As long as I'm here, though, what do you think of this list, Hanni? :)

Looks fine to me, though I'm still partial on leaving Daze in.


I would say its bad, has no mana acceleration, and is slower than a lava flow. But then I realize its a joke, and in that case I think its the awsome sauce. Of a more constructive nature...I would fear EE at 2 . And a one of Witness would probably help more than the Meddling Mage.

No mana acceleration? I think you're forgetting about Gemhide Sliver... or the fact that the creature base has 2cc creatures and not 4cc creatures like typical Surival builds. Also, EE at 2 can meet Force of Will or the sideboard Stifles... or simply Orangutan if they can't pop EE in the same turn it's cast. I didn't think he was joking, but maybe he was. I guess no one likes Survival at all, huh? Then again, no one has probably tried it.


Pure aggro with disruption is the way to go; trying to make it aggro-control and survival is like slapping 30 cards from two decks together.


Why does the deck have to go pure aggro to make Survival work? The control portion helps protect Survival if nothing else and it still gets to retain its good combo matchup. The only thing Survival does is add a draw engine to the deck that tutors up exactly the creature you need, whether it be Crystalline or Talon, or simply back-to-back Muscles to win. How is it slapping 2 decks together? It's almost exactly the same deck minus Visions and the multiples of Winged Sliver, basically.

[xsockmonkeyx]

How is it slapping 2 decks together? It's almost exactly the same deck minus Visions and the multiples of Winged Sliver, basically.

...and Squee, and gemhides, and wonder, and sex monkeys, etc.

I dont know, it always seems to degenerate into a RGSA/Sliver hybrid that does many things good but nothing well. Its probably more viable with sinew now but it still looks like a pile.

If you could keep it as UWG slivers with the Survival engine to power it out then it might be good, but adding crap to exploit SotF seems greedy.

[Volt]

I wasn't joking, but I've also done zero testing. To be honest, I have my doubts that adding Survival is really an improvement. My UWg list (sans Survival) already goes 70-30 against Goblins, and I have a hard time believing that spending my 2nd turn to play a Survival instead of a sliver is a good play in that matchup. Also, I don't have to do any playtesting to know that Survival is not going help me beat Iggy or Solidarity; the only use it could really serve in those matchups is as a tutor for Meddling Mage. Thresh typically runs 3 maindeck Pithing Needles, and I don't think 1 sex monkey is going to keep your Survival safe.

However, Hanni seems pretty insistent that it's worth it, so I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand.

[CrunchBite]

If you could keep it as UWG slivers with the Survival engine to power it out then it might be good, but adding crap to exploit SotF seems greedy.

After playing around with it the last couple evenings, this is exactly right. The more stuff you shove in to try to exploit Survival, the weaker the deck overall gets. At this point I've essentially cut everything but Squee who is too insane with Survival to not include. Even Wonder makes the deck weaker in my experience. If you think of Survival as a reusable tutor rather than a card to build around, then it's an amazing addition. Its a card quality improver in a deck that sorely needs it but the deck doesn't buckle to hate targeted at the Survival any more then hate targeted at Eladamri's Call would.

Volt's assessment of the effect on the top 3 decks is pretty accurate as they don't really help there for various reasons, but they don't really hurt either. It's against the misc other decks people play that Survival really helps. I feel like it really smoothes out how the deck plays and makes it more consistent, much more then Call or Serum Visions does.

For reference, here's what I'm testing now. I did leave in the singleton Essence, but he's nice even without Survival so I don't feel like he weakens the deck like other Survival targets did. I also upped the land count a smidge since Survival doesn't help you dig for lands like SV.

Land (19)
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Spells (21)
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Daze/Stifle (whichever makes you happy)
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures (20)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Essence Sliver
1 Squee, Goblin Naboo

[Volt]

After playing around with it the last couple evenings, this is exactly right. The more stuff you shove in to try to exploit Survival, the weaker the deck overall gets. At this point I've essentially cut everything but Squee who is too insane with Survival to not include. Even Wonder makes the deck weaker in my experience. If you think of Survival as a reusable tutor rather than a card to build around, then it's an amazing addition. Its a card quality improver in a deck that sorely needs it but the deck doesn't buckle to hate targeted at the Survival any more then hate targeted at Eladamri's Call would.

Volt's assessment of the effect on the top 3 decks is pretty accurate as they don't really help there for various reasons, but they don't really hurt either. It's against the misc other decks people play that Survival really helps. I feel like it really smoothes out how the deck plays and makes it more consistent, much more then Call or Serum Visions does.

For reference, here's what I'm testing now. I did leave in the singleton Essence, but he's nice even without Survival so I don't feel like he weakens the deck like other Survival targets did. I also upped the land count a smidge since Survival doesn't help you dig for lands like SV.

Land (19)
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Spells (21)
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Daze/Stifle (whichever makes you happy)
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures (20)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Essence Sliver
1 Squee, Goblin Naboo


Now this is a build I can get on board with. Nice work, Crunch.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Now this is a build I can get on board with. Nice work, Crunch.

Yay, doesnt look half bad.

Does SotF clog your opening mana resources? When do you want to drop Survival? Is the engine worth opening yourself up to graveyard hate and Pithing Needle?

[Hanni]

The deck still needs 1 Gemhide Sliver regardless. Without 1 Gemhide in the maindeck, turn 2 Survival sucks.

[Maverick676]

Since your build is only running 4 cantrips I don't think you can cheat on the manabase anymore, 19 lands just won't cut it. You should up you land count to 20 or maybe even 22.

[CrunchBite]

@Mav You're probably right. I'm still up in the air, but 19 seems to be working decently at the moment...

@Hanni I disagree. Certainly you can speed things up a bit with him, but I find that there's very few games I'd rather play Gemhide over a pump Sliver, nor do I really want to be tapping my Slivers instead of attacking or saving for defense. Can you expand on him a little bit? Maybe I'm missing something.

@SockMonkey Yes it does mess up mana a little bit. With SoTF it's no longer a green splash in the deck, and 3 is a good number of mana to hit since it lets you Survival and play a Sliver. It also cuts down the number of Cantrips, so keepable starting hands are a little more rare without more land in the deck. That's why I upped the mana count and will probably do it again.

As far as when to play, it depends what's in your hand, the board situation and what deck you're up against. I generally find it's best to stay aggressive and only play it either when you don't have a better Sliver to play or have the mana to really exploit it. Generally I'll only play it second turn if I don't have a Crystalline to play. It's almost always a mistake to play Survival out before Crystalline and Pump Slivers (depending on the amount of removal in the deck you're against) in my experience.

As far as dealing with hate, it depends. GY hate is mostly worthless and I'd be happy to see people boarding it against me since it wastes their deck space. It's nothing but a knee-jerk reaction against Survival. The only GY target left in my build is Squee and losing Squee doesn't make Survival useless, just less insane. It just changes Survival from Card Advantage and Card Quality to Card Quality. If you're worried about it, you can always play a second Squee in the board.

Pithing Needle is the only piece of hate that worries me, mostly because there are no previously good Pithing targets in the deck, so a useless card for them suddenly becomes good card for them. If they run them, I'd actually consider boarding out the Survival, especially against Thresh. Thresh doesn't play well at all with Survival. With Daze, Force, Needle and Mage, it'll never hit play, but if you board them out, they'll be wasting hate against a card you aren't playing any more. I'm still uncertain how best to deal with Needles.

@Volt Thank you :)

[Maverick676]

Despite my misgivings about survival in this deck, I am going to give it a shot. With squee it is savage card advantage, as well as a great tutor. Results to follow.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Pithing Needle is the only piece of hate that worries me, mostly because there are no previously good Pithing targets in the deck, so a useless card for them suddenly becomes good card for them. If they run them, I'd actually consider boarding out the Survival, especially against Thresh. Thresh doesn't play well at all with Survival. With Daze, Force, Needle and Mage, it'll never hit play, but if you board them out, they'll be wasting hate against a card you aren't playing any more. I'm still uncertain how best to deal with Needles.


I think it would be hilarious to find opponants boarding in hate to remove 1 squee or in knee-jerk reaction to survival. It could be secret anti-sideboard tech for a while ;)

As for needles, Harmonic Sliver is obviously less viable. Sex Monkey seems underwhelming, but it does counter chalice at 1, 2. Theres always Dienchant/Natualize or its big brother Krosan Grip. EDIT: EE is also an option which hits chalice.


Volt's assessment of the effect on the top 3 decks is pretty accurate as they don't really help there for various reasons, but they don't really hurt either. It's against the misc other decks people play that Survival really helps.

It might be nice to tutor up mutiple mages out of the board to fight combo, but it might be too slow to be a viable strategy. Against goblins your manabase is now more suspect but none more than going 4 colors i suppose.

[Volt]

I did some playtesting over the weekend against UGw Thresh. I was playing the following decklist:

// land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains

// creatures
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

// instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell

// sorceries
4 Serum Visions

// sideboard
4 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
4 Stifle
3 Talon Sliver

My playtest partner (Nick a.k.a. Nightshade81) was playing Hatfield Thresh (the same list that Jesse piloted to 2nd place at the 10/7/06 D4D, except we tweaked the sideboard to include 4x Meddling Mage, since there was really nothing in Jesse's list to help against slivers).

Pre-sideboard: Meat Hooks won 9-3. Slivers have inevitability, with 12 pump slivers and 3 Winged Slivers to dominate the board. Getting a Crystalline into play garners a ton of virtual card advantage, but isn't strictly necessary to win. After a few games, Nick realized he pretty much had to play 'The Beatdown' role, hoping to drop 2 or 3 quick threshed Mongeese/Werebears into play and try to rush me. Generally, he couldn't pull it off.

Post-sideboard: Meat Hooks won 8-6. Nick sided out 3 Pithing Needles (which are essentially dead cards anyway) and 1 other card to make room for 4 Meddling Mages. The Meddling Mages helped him out quite a bit. The first one he played would usually name Crystalline Sliver (if I hadn't already managed to get one into play). This was a great play for him, as it not only made my Crystallines unplayable, but also kept his removal good. It was a huge swing in virtual card advantage. I changed my sideboarding strategy a few times during the set, and I'm not sure I found the correct one. Talon Slivers should certainly be sided in, as First Strike is *very* good against Thresh. Meddling Mages are also pretty decent against Thresh, but I'm not sure they're worth it. The hard part is deciding what to side out. If you're going 2nd, you can easily side the Dazes out. Beyond that, though, it gets tough. Serum Visions are about the only other semi-obvious choice. Counterspells could possibly be sided out as well.

Conclusions: Based on this play session, I would have to say that Meat Hooks is favored about 2-1 against UGw Thresh sans Meddling Mage. However, the matchup against UGW Thresh with Meddling Mage is much tougher. I would say it's roughly even or perhaps slightly favorable for Meat Hooks.

[Rasen]

Hi! Bit of a newbie here, but was hoping for some feedback on a deck of mine since everyone here seems so experienced and knowledgeable.

Some things I've been considering after a little playtesting(very little. Not many people around to play Magic with):

1) I used to run Arcane Denial, but switched it out after a fair amount of criticism against it. However with Winter Orb, it now seems to have less of a drawback than before(plus it being a hard counter is always nice)

2) I've been thinking of putting in two Sedge Slivers into the mainboard and an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth into the sideboard. Good/Bad idea?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated!

Waffle Controller

Creatures(20):
3x Crystalline Sliver
3x Gemhide Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
3x Winged Sliver
4x Birds of Paradise

Sorcery/Instants(13):
4x Living Wish
3x Memory Lapse
3x Remand
2x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantments/Artifacts(10):
4x AEther Vial
3x Winter Orb
2x Worship

Lands(18):
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mines
4x Reflecting Pool
4x Thran Quarries
1x Temple Garden
1x Breeding Pool

Sideboard(15):
1x Crystalline Sliver
1x Frenetic Sliver
1x Fury Sliver
1x Gemhide Sliver
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Necrotic Sliver
1x Plague Sliver
1x Psionic Sliver
1x Pulmonic Sliver
1x Root Sliver
1x Shadow Sliver
1x Sliver Overlord
1x Sliver Queen
1x Ward Sliver
1x Meddling Mage

[Volt]

Hi, Rasen. I'll give you a few of my thoughts about your build.

Positives:
1. I like the synergy of Winter Orb/Aether Vial/Gemhide Sliver. Very nice.

2. Crystalline Sliver + Worship will auto-win you some games.

3. The Living Wish toolbox strategy is interesting.


Negatives:
1. No Force of Will = bad times vs. combo

2. Your choice of counterspells in general is a little odd. Why play Memory Lapse or Remand over Counterspell?

3. The manabase is really asking for trouble. Running 4 Reflecting Pools and 4 Thran Quarries is courting disaster. Whatever experiences you may have had in casually testing this deck, you're going to find yourself getting landscrewed quite often if you use this manabase at a high level tournament. You might be able to get away with running 1 Reflecting Pool, but I'd ditch the Thran Quarries altogether. I'm guessing you don't have any of the old dual lands, which would explain Temple Garden + Breeding Pool. However, for the purposes of discussion in this forum, you should disregard whatever 'real life' cardpool limitations you have, and include stuff like fetch lands and original duals in whatever decklists you share.

4. It looks like your strategy is to eventually get Sliver Queen into play, which might explain your risky manabase, in part. However, it's just not worth it. Sliver Queen is too slow, and would generally just be a "win more" card anyway.

[Rasen]

Volt, thanks for the reply! I'll try to answer some of your points so that I can better understand the weaknesses in my deck.


2. Your choice of counterspells in general is a little odd. Why play Memory Lapse or Remand over Counterspell?

Splashability. Granted, that was why I played Arcane Denial originally, but I've gotten enough negative feedback about the one(?) card disadvantage that I switched over. Come to think about it, this was probably back when I used to have regular lands. ^^;

Come to think about it, when you suggest Force of Will, I assume that it's replacing a creature or artifact, because the deck isn't running that many blue spells. What would you suggest replacing?


3. The manabase is really asking for trouble. Running 4 Reflecting Pools and 4 Thran Quarries is courting disaster. Whatever experiences you may have had in casually testing this deck, you're going to find yourself getting landscrewed quite often if you use this manabase at a high level tournament.

I assume the problem is land destruction? In that case, aren't the original dual lands just as vulnerable?


but I'd ditch the Thran Quarries altogether.

I'd guess this is because of the vulnerability to creature destruction, but doesn't the combination of Crystalline and counters generally negate this? Also, this is part of why I've started thinking about using Sedge and/or Ghostway...


4. It looks like your strategy is to eventually get Sliver Queen into play, which might explain your risky manabase, in part.

Actually, it's not. ^^ Ideally, the deck would run over the opponent with beefy slivers with evasion. I think it's the only one in there for the sole purpose of just having it in there, and a 7/7 body for 5. It used to be mainboarded, along with Overlord, and so long as I had 5 sources of mana, it WAS coming out.

[Pinder]

The first one he played would usually name Crystalline Sliver (if I hadn't already managed to get one into play). This was a great play for him, as it not only made my Crystallines unplayable, but also kept his removal good. It was a huge swing in virtual card advantage.


Actually, I've done some testing against Mav and his Thresh list (which I believe differs only slightly from Hatfield Thresh), and we found that the first thing you generally want to name against slivers isn't neccesarily Crystalline Sliver. Sure, keeping Crystalline off the table is nice because it makes their removal useful, but Mav and I found that it's actually very bad for us if they name our pump slivers first. During one game he maged Sinew and Muscle, and it made things very hard for me. This was becuase, even though they were untargetable, without Muscle and Sinew my slivers were simply smaller than a threshed Bear or Mongoose. It's very hard to stop the beatdown when you have to feed their beaters with your slivers. Talon from the side would probably help here, though, as you could stack block without losing too many slivers. I'll have to test that.

Given our results, I think it's probably better to start naming the pump slivers rather than start with naming Crystalline. This probably isn't what we'll see right off the bat, as the knee-jerk reaction is 'ZOMG not Crystalline!!1111oneone', but I suspect that the more people think about it, the more we'll see this strategy implemented.

[Volt]

@Rasen:

Reflecting Pool by itself cannot be tapped for mana at all. With 4 Reflecting Pools and only 18 lands total, you're going to have to mulligan a fair number of hands where RP is the only land in your hand. Thran Quarry is risky because if you lose your creature(s), you lose the Thran Quarry, too. And it will happen. Imagine 1st turn Gemstone Mine, play Birds of Paradise, 2nd turn Thran Quarry, play Crystalline, it gets Forced, pass your turn, opponent plows your bird, eot you sacrifice your Thran Quarry, leaving you with just a Gemstone Mine with a single counter. That's just one of many scenarios in which you will screw yourself by playing Thran Quarries.

You may think I'm speaking only in theoretical "on paper" terms, but I actually have experience with playing Reflecting Pool, Thran Quarry, Gemstone Mine, etc. in Countersliver "back in the day." They were risky cards back then, and I was only playing 1 or 2 of each. Maybe you need to find out for yourself that they just aren't a good idea.

[Rasen]

During one game he maged Sinew and Muscle, and it made things very hard for me.

Hey, I realize this is a stupid question, but does AEther Vial get around Mage?

I remember playing a game against Raffinity, in which I ended up maging Disciple then Vial, because said he could Vial the sucker into play otherwise. Of course, the guy could've simply been bluffing, but....

[Rasen]

You may think I'm speaking only in theoretical "on paper" terms, but I actually have experience with playing Reflecting Pool, Thran Quarry, Gemstone Mine, etc.

Actually, I have had some experience with what you mentioned, (though not from a Force of Will). It's part of the reason why I'm thinking of putting hard counters back in. Between those and the Vials, I try to protect the Crystalline's journey onto the field.

I don't have much experience playing in a competitive Legacy environment, so what I say in defense isn't as substantiated as what you say, but I'm always trying to make the deck as strong as possible.

[Volt]

Actually, I've done some testing against Mav and his Thresh list (which I believe differs only slightly from Hatfield Thresh), and we found that the first thing you generally want to name against slivers isn't neccesarily Crystalline Sliver. Sure, keeping Crystalline off the table is nice because it makes their removal useful, but Mav and I found that it's actually very bad for us if they name our pump slivers first. During one game he maged Sinew and Muscle, and it made things very hard for me. This was becuase, even though they were untargetable, without Muscle and Sinew my slivers were simply smaller than a threshed Bear or Mongoose. It's very hard to stop the beatdown when you have to feed their beaters with your slivers. Talon from the side would probably help here, though, as you could stack block without losing too many slivers. I'll have to test that.


Yeah, Talon Sliver is fairly amazing against Thresh. Crystalline + Talon + any other sliver is a real pain in the ass for them to deal with. Btw, what were your results from playtesting that matchup? Did they differ greatly from mine? And were you playing with Dazes or Stifles maindeck? Daze is better in this matchup.

@Rasen: Yes, Aether Vial gets around Meddling Mage. Meddling Mage says you can't "play" the named spell. Aether Vial "puts it into play," which is not the same thing as "playing" it. It's an important distinction.

[Pinder]

They weren't too different. Mav had maindeck Mages (I believe), so the matchup was a little tougher, but all in all I'd say that it never dropped below 50/50. In the games where he didn't have or get Mage, though, things were decidedly easier.

Oh, and I was running Dazes (3 of them) maindeck with 3 Stifle in the board. For reference, the list:

//18 Land (standard stuff here)

//The Perfect 19
4 Crystalline
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
4 Plated
3 Winged

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

On a similar note, how is our Goblin matchup? Has anyone tested it recently with the 'perfect 19', or are we still going off of our old 'yay this beats Goblins' data? I like that our Thresh matchup has improved, but does anyone have any recent testing results to determine if our matchup against the little red men has stayed the same?

edit: Oh, and if we want Talon in the board for Thresh (and to spank Goblins just a little more G2), the board might look something like this:

4 Mage
4 Needle
2 Worship
2 Harmonic
2 Talon
1 Something (possibly a 3rd Talon/Harmonic/Worship? Or maybe take out Worship and run 3x EE?)

[Volt]

On a similar note, how is our Goblin matchup? Has anyone tested it recently with the 'perfect 19', or are we still going off of our old 'yay this beats Goblins' data? I like that our Thresh matchup has improved, but does anyone have any recent testing results to determine if our matchup against the little red men has stayed the same?


I have played about 40 games against Machinus Goblins using the new 'Perfect 19' build. Slivers dominate. Like 70-30. Seriously.

[Pinder]

I have played about 40 games against Machinus Goblins using the new 'Perfect 19' build. Slivers dominate. Like 70-30. Seriously.

That's heartening. Last I checked Solidarity was about 50-50 preboard, and about 60-40 (or as much as 70-30) postboard due to Mages. With the advent of Sinew Sliver, we should be able to race them even more efficiently now, though. Unfortunately both Mav and I are fairly horrible at playing Solidarity, so I'm not sure any testing we do would be terribly conclusive, as we can't go all Gearheart and bend the stack over a table and such :tongue:.

[darksun2012]

You have the right to say I'm stupid for suggesting this since I have not :
A) Read the whole 38 pages of this thread.
B) Actually built this and tested it.
C) *hides his post count*

But I'm mostly trying to understand. I saw a few posts about how this or that was not played because of splashability... Now that you have a white muscle sliver, why not outright cut green? I'm sure muscle sliver is a great sliver, but I'm just thinking the higher stability and better counters would have a better effect on the deck than 8 muscle slivers...