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Rasen
02-12-2007, 10:51 PM
But I'm mostly trying to understand. I saw a few posts about how this or that was not played because of splashability... Now that you have a white muscle sliver, why not outright cut green? I'm sure muscle sliver is a great sliver, but I'm just thinking the higher stability and better counters would have a better effect on the deck than 8 muscle slivers...

Well, I can't claim expertise, but I'm of the opinion that Green allows for color-fixin's, mana-acceleration, GemHide, and like you said 8 muscles. Sliver decks run 4x of those because they're one of the finest two drops to ever grace the sliver race. 8 just makes for a more consistent quick build-up/beat-down.

IMHO.

And of course, there's my personal attempt to use Living Wish to have a Sliver for every occasion...

Pinder
02-12-2007, 11:46 PM
There was talk of cutting green once we had a white Muscle Sliver, and a U/W build has even been tested.

Then we realized that Muscle and Sinew were 2/2s for 2 mana that gave every single one of your other creatures +1/+1.

2 mana Glorious Anthem on a flying, untargetable body? Who the fuck wouldn't want 8? Next to Crystalline, these are the guys you want to see first. Having 8 of them only ensures that that happens all the damn time.

So yeah, 8 is great.

xsockmonkeyx
02-13-2007, 02:04 AM
I don't have much experience playing in a competitive Legacy environment, so what I say in defense isn't as substantiated as what you say, but I'm always trying to make the deck as strong as possible.

Mana bases in legacy are built around the Onslaught fetchlands, like Flooded Strand. You use them to fetch out basic lands(to protect yourself from wastelands) and dual lands (to fix your mana). Using Reflecting Pool, City of Brass, and Gemstone are almost strictly inferior to the Fetch/Dual/Basic strategy.

If you are new to legacy then this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13629.html) article kicks a little ass.

Aggro_zombies
02-13-2007, 02:46 AM
There was talk of cutting green once we had a white Muscle Sliver, and a U/W build has even been tested.

Then we realized that Muscle and Sinew were 2/2s for 2 mana that gave every single one of your other creatures +1/+1.

2 mana Glorious Anthem on a flying, untargetable body? Who the fuck wouldn't want 8? Next to Crystalline, these are the guys you want to see first. Having 8 of them only ensures that that happens all the damn time.

So yeah, 8 is great.
QFT. When I play the WUB build of the deck, I really find myself wanting to draw more than one Sinew Sliver to speed my clock up and reduce the reliance I have on my other control elements to hold the board until I win. Unfortunately, this would require that I massively up the draw spells count, as I usually don't get more than one in play and even that might take some time to do. Running 8 Muscle Slivers virtually ensures that you will have one in play, and often allows you to have two or more in play at one time. That's having two 3/3 guys that give all your other guys +2/+2. Not bad when you're trying to pile on the beats, eh?

Kokusho17
02-13-2007, 03:26 AM
Just a quick question. What does the current deck look like. i did some testing with an old version of the deck but i know its changed since then a lot and was wondering what it looks like.

Pinder
02-13-2007, 03:36 AM
For reference, here's the (UWg) list that I think everyone is largely agreed on:

//Land (18)
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

//Slivers (19)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

//Spells (23)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Daze (or possibly Stifle, if you prefer)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

There's still some discussion over whether or not the basic forest is necessary, the everlasting Daze vs. Stifle debate, and the correct ratio of Deltas to Heaths, but all in all this is the most current list.

I'm also going to edit this into the first post. If anyone has any objections, just let me know and I'll do some more editing.

Kokusho17
02-13-2007, 04:38 AM
Cool thanks, is there a sideboard or is it the same as the original?

Maveric78f
02-13-2007, 05:59 AM
I have already posted my list on another site (TMD) but I found no response except flaming. I know you guys sneak around almost all sites and may have read it. I give it a try once more and hope you'll be more talkative.

The main question for me is :
Why on earth are you all loving the counter part of your build ? The main constraint is running 20+ blue cards and a blue oriented mana base.
I prefer far more the discard approach (in order to be effective too against combo), because it's not plaguing the half of your non-land cards and because it's better against control.

If I could afford it I'd run 4*cabal therapy + 4*FoW but as I told I don't want FoW forcing me to play blue cards I would not play otherwise.

Playing blue control prevents you from :
- playing gemhide sliver which is one of the best slivers even made (tested and approved)
- playing vial (quite obvious when you know that CotV is played a lot and that all the significant slivers are 2CC)
- playing discard. As far as I can see, but it's a personnal point of view, discard is better in early game than conterspells, that's why it fits better in an aggroish deck.
- playing tutor : living wish or eladamri's call or even SotF and use draw spells instead.

Tha main advantages :
- more aggroish : a clock is on your opponent's face
- 3 different sources of mana : lands, vial, gemhide. you will not fear anymore deadguy ale.
- better against combo, at least post-side
- black slivers : hibernation, darkheart and necrotic can win games even if they are more or less situational.
- 1-of tutorable slivers

Tha main drawbacks :
- no removal : no STP, but gob is really not a problem with this build
- no brainstorm: it's a pretty obvious inclusion in all blue-contained decks but I have already a lot of things to play on T1 and blue is not the first colour to fetch in my build, so...
- maybe less consistance. I have not played your version to tell exactly but that may be right.

Finally I'll copy/paste/modify a bit the deck I proposed on TMD.

Slivers (28)
4*sinew sliver
4*muscle sliver
4*cristalline sliver
4*plated sliver
1*hibernation sliver
1*talon sliver
2*winged sliver
1*Harmonic sliver
1*Darkheart sliver
1*Necrotic sliver
1*screeching sliver (alternative kill, useful in mirror too, because I play less cantrip and far more slivers than usual builds)
4*gemhide sliver (to make colored mana suppliance easier too)

Some tools (16) :
4*Duress
4*Cabal therapy
4*Vial
4*elamdamri's call

Mana base (16) :
2*polluted delta
2*flooded strand
2*windswept heath
2*bayou
3*scrubland
1*tundra
1*underground sea
2*tropical island
1*savannah

Sideboard (15) :
4*meddling mage
4*extirpate
2*harmonic
3*krosan grip
2*Talon sliver

Hanni
02-13-2007, 07:49 AM
Maverick, the biggest thing that I don't like about your build is the lack of draw. 4 Eladamri's Call is a huge tempo sink without Vial. I would try to fit in, at least, 4 Brainstorm. Those will help you fix bad early and late game draws. Personally, it seems that Survival of the Fittest would be a much stronger replacement than Eladamri's Call, since at least Survival is reusable. Tough call though, but I definitely think you should run 4 Brainstorm at the least.

Maveric78f
02-13-2007, 08:14 AM
Why would I need draw ? I have no dead cards, except discard spells in late game.

I could cut in my sliver "toolbox" to find room. (for instance -1 talon, -1 winged, -1 screeching and -1 necrotic) But a random sliver is NEVER a bad card as long as you have a lot of them into play.

I know that except FS, not a single blue-containing deck pays less than 4 brainstorm but you have to see that blue is almost a splash in this deck (only 8 cards) and that I need a lot of colored mana, often non-blue mana.

About Survival instead of eladamri, it's part of the things I consider. But I find it slow (much slower than eladamri) and I don't like the idea of having a dead squee or wonder in hand.

Psyk
02-13-2007, 08:32 AM
Wouldn't sorcery-speed gameplan protection (discard) ruin your tempo?
I think a fast aggro deck like this is better off when it relies on instant-speed, reactive protection.

Maveric78f
02-13-2007, 08:59 AM
Not at all because :
- daze slows you down. It can be good though.
- counterspell means that you keep 2 opened mana, which is all but aggroish
- Force of Will would be good if it didn't involve to play 20 blue cards.

My sorcery speed spells cost me exactly BBBBBBBB if I play my entire deck. And I play them when I want, I don't have to wait to be reactive to play them.

Discard is definitely better than counterspell in aggro decks. The question is : do you want sliver to be an aggro deck ? I think that it has better because strength of slivers comes from swarm. One or even 2 slivers are bad creatures. As soon as they are 3, they are worth it. That's also why I insist in playing more than 24 creatures.

Volt
02-13-2007, 11:51 AM
For reference, here's the (UWg) list that I think everyone is largely agreed on:

//Land (18)
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

//Slivers (19)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

//Spells (23)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Daze (or possibly Stifle, if you prefer)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

There's still some discussion over whether or not the basic forest is necessary, the everlasting Daze vs. Stifle debate, and the correct ratio of Deltas to Heaths, but all in all this is the most current list.

I'm also going to edit this into the first post. If anyone has any objections, just let me know and I'll do some more editing.

Yeah, I really REALLY don't think the basic forest is needed. In fact, I think it's an albatross. I've played a zillion games against Goblins with its 4 Waste + 4 Port, and even against that deck I don't want a basic forest. If I were a Goblins player, I would try to Waste/Port all your other lands and leave you with just your basic Forest.

I play 4 Daze + 3 Counterspell, instead of the other way around. But that's a very minor quibble. I have a much bigger issue with the basic forest.

Rasen
02-13-2007, 12:06 PM
I've been seeing people talk about all the testing they've done.

Is there some online resource for people to meet and test decks? (Aside from Magic Online, which would require I re-buy all the cards I currently use) Because it would seem very difficult to find the time to meet up in RL to playtest as much as you all do, and I really think I need to gain experience in that aspect.

Aggro_zombies
02-13-2007, 12:45 PM
I've been seeing people talk about all the testing they've done.

Is there some online resource for people to meet and test decks? (Aside from Magic Online, which would require I re-buy all the cards I currently use) Because it would seem very difficult to find the time to meet up in RL to playtest as much as you all do, and I really think I need to gain experience in that aspect.
Magic Workstation. It's free and it can connect to a game server full of noobs for you to crush.

xsockmonkeyx
02-13-2007, 01:02 PM
Magic Workstation. It's free and it can connect to a game server full of noobs for you to crush.

http://www.magicworkstation.com/

Download and you can play with people who's skill at magic is probably less than their skill at English. Enjoy!

Pinder
02-13-2007, 02:18 PM
Yeah, I really REALLY don't think the basic forest is needed. In fact, I think it's an albatross. I've played a zillion games against Goblins with its 4 Waste + 4 Port, and even against that deck I don't want a basic forest. If I were a Goblins player, I would try to Waste/Port all your other lands and leave you with just your basic Forest.

I play 4 Daze + 3 Counterspell, instead of the other way around. But that's a very minor quibble. I have a much bigger issue with the basic forest.

Meh, you have a point there. I honestly couldn't care less whether or not the deck has a basic forest or the 4th Trop. Mav seems to think that we need a forest, and you seem to hate that idea. Whatever.

Since I lean towards expensive manabases (and I enjoy spiting Mav :tongue:), I'm going to stick in the 4th Trop in the opening list for now.

And you play 4 Daze? I'd rather have a 4th hard counter, but as you said, that particular choice is rather insignificant.

xsockmonkeyx
02-13-2007, 07:42 PM
//The Perfect 19
4 Crystalline
4 Muscle
4 Sinew
4 Plated
3 Winged



I have played about 40 games against Machinus Goblins using the new 'Perfect 19' build. Slivers dominate. Like 70-30. Seriously.

Heh, told you.:tongue:

Maverick676
02-13-2007, 07:45 PM
Now since sinew sliver the basic forest is not as needed. But it does insure that something like bloodmoon won't reck you, since you'll have the green mana to cast harmonic. I doubt it has a major impact either way, but I recommend it just in case (or maybe I'm just paranoid, who knows).

Rasen
02-13-2007, 07:55 PM
Oh, that reminds me. In my deck, I'm running 4x Living Wish, so I decided to run 3x Gemhide, and 3x Muscle in the mainboard, and 1x of each in the sideboard.

My rationale is that it increases my chance of fetching the slivers I want, and keeping the Wish useful throughout the game, but am I right?

Volt
02-13-2007, 07:56 PM
Now since sinew sliver the basic forest is not as needed. But it does insure that something like bloodmoon won't reck you, since you'll have the green mana to cast harmonic. I doubt it has a major impact either way, but I recommend it just in case (or maybe I'm just paranoid, who knows).

Yep. You're paranoid.

Sure, you can come up with scenarios where a basic Forest would rescue the day. However, I think those scenarios are far outweighed by the real life scenarios where a basic Forest is about as useful as a toenail clipping. A nasty, fungus-infected toenail clipping with cheese still attached.



Heh, told you.:tongue:

You da monkey!

xsockmonkeyx
02-13-2007, 08:08 PM
Oh, that reminds me. In my deck, I'm running 4x Living Wish, so I decided to run 3x Gemhide, and 3x Muscle in the mainboard, and 1x of each in the sideboard.

My rationale is that it increases my chance of fetching the slivers I want, and keeping the Wish useful throughout the game, but am I right?

That is correct. However, I would trim down your wishboard to its most valuable componants. You will need space for fighting problematic matchups in your sideboard and besides, there are really only a few slivers that you reasonably want to wish for.

Also, if you havent done it already, you should squeeze 4x Plated Sliver into your deck. Those guys are essential IMO.

Id try something like this:

3x Crystalline Sliver
3x Sinew Sliver
3x Winged Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Plated Sliver
2x Talon Sliver

4x Brainstorm
4x Living Wish->awesome tech

4x Force of Will(kinda skimpy on the blue spells :/)
3x Counterspell
3x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares

4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Tundra
4x Tropical Island
1x Savannah

Sideboard(15):
1x Sinew Sliver
1x Crystalline Sliver
1x Talon Sliver
1x Gemhide Sliver/City of Brass/Island
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Winged Sliver
4x Meddling Mage
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Stifle

Pinder
02-13-2007, 08:39 PM
Heh, told you.:tongue:

Well, at its most basic levels, this deck wants 3 things. Fat, Untargetability, and Evasion. Cutting it down to just that makes the deck a lot more focused, and a lot more consistent. Good job, monkey. :wink:

xsockmonkeyx
02-13-2007, 09:02 PM
Thanks. Its my opinion that those 19 slivers are the minimum you want to run. Its also almost the maximum too. The list for the UWg version(non-survival) is getting pretty tight IMO. The inclusion of daze or stifle in the maindeck or a land or two are the only differences I see floating around still.

Blair Phoenix
02-13-2007, 10:59 PM
Yep. You're paranoid.

Sure, you can come up with scenarios where a basic Forest would rescue the day. However, I think those scenarios are far outweighed by the real life scenarios where a basic Forest is about as useful as a toenail clipping. A nasty, fungus-infected toenail clipping with cheese still attached.


Hey, but if you were on a deserted island, that piece of cheese might have been your only food supply.. XD

Ok really though, I agree, games where you'll actually need the basic forest aren't improved greatly by having it.

Rasen
02-14-2007, 01:43 PM
After seeing so much decks use the "perfect 19" and being suggest that I should include Plated, I was thinking of replacing the Birds with them. This is also because I was once told to replace the Birds with Vials.

Still, is this the right choice? I'm rather fond of the flying mana producers.

Pinder
02-14-2007, 04:10 PM
Still, is this the right choice?

I would give a resounding yes, but then again if I'm not mistaken your list differs slightly from ours, so perhaps birds is a good idea there.

But yeah, I definitely won't be cutting Plated anytime soon.

Unless they print a 3rd Muscle, I suppose. Or maybe a 2nd Crystalline :laugh:!

Rasen
02-14-2007, 05:13 PM
I would give a resounding yes, but then again if I'm not mistaken your list differs slightly from ours, so perhaps birds is a good idea there.

Well, it's not like I'm running high-cost cards, but I do enjoy the mana-accel/fix.

Perhaps you could explain what makes Plated so great? It's nice that it gives a +0/+1 so cheaply, but it's not like I ever block with the slivers. (Too much chance of it backfiring horribly IMHO). Of course, I'm not familiar with the Legacy environs, so...?

I've always played my deck with the approach that my slivers will kill my opponent, and I've got 20 life to do it in.

Volt
02-14-2007, 05:38 PM
Perhaps you could explain what makes Plated so great? It's nice that it gives a +0/+1 so cheaply, but it's not like I ever block with the slivers. (Too much chance of it backfiring horribly IMHO). Of course, I'm not familiar with the Legacy environs, so...?

1. Plated Sliver is a great Lackey-stopper. When building a deck for the Legacy format, one of the first things you have to ask yourself is "How do I deal with a first turn Goblin Lackey?" Your deck basically just has Force of Will (and not very many blue spells to go with it, I might add). I think you will agree that is not an ideal solution. I suppose you could throw a Bird of Paradise down and hope it will survive long enough to chump the Lackey, but that's a pipe dream. Your opponent will almost certainly kill your bird with a turn two Mogg Fanatic or Incinerator, and then swing away with his Lackey.

2. Yes, you will be spending some time blocking in this format, or at least holding back slivers to potentially block. When playing against other creature-based aggro decks, Slivers tends to play defense for the first few turns of the game. Even when attacking into a horde, having those extra points of toughness can really complicate combat match for your opponent.

3. Plated Sliver is just a nice, cheap beater, plain and simple. Add in a Muscle Sliver or two, and you're really getting a bargain out of that 1 mana you spent.

4. I've never seen this point mentioned before, but I think it's a worthwhile point. If you have Harmonic Sliver out, and someone drops a Chalice of the Void for 2 on you, you're either going to need to drop a Plated or another Harmonic to blow that Chalice up. Hey, trust me, it comes up.

Rasen
02-14-2007, 05:47 PM
I see. Points 1-3 really make things clear. I was wondering if the opponent would just incinerate the plated sliver, but I guess they'd decide it's not worth it, unlike a Birds.

Does this mean Birds are just too fragile in the Legacy format? That's a shock...


4. I've never seen this point mentioned before, but I think it's a worthwhile point. If you have Harmonic Sliver out, and someone drops a Chalice of the Void for 2 on you, you're either going to need to drop a Plated or another Harmonic to blow that Chalice up. Hey, trust me, it comes up.

^_^ Vial gets around this too, yes?

Volt
02-14-2007, 05:59 PM
I see. Points 1-3 really make things clear. I was wondering if the opponent would just incinerate the plated sliver, but I guess they'd decide it's not worth it, unlike a Birds.

Does this mean Birds are just too fragile in the Legacy format? That's a shock...



^_^ Vial gets around this too, yes?

They'll never be able to Incinerate your Plated on turn 2, because it has 2 toughness, and they'll only have 1 Goblin in play.

EDIT: Just to be clear, we're talking about Gempalm Incinerator, not the burn spell named 'Incinerate.'

Yes, an active Aether Vial circumvents Chalice of the Void.

Rasen
02-14-2007, 08:08 PM
EDIT: Just to be clear, we're talking about Gempalm Incinerator, not the burn spell named 'Incinerate.'

Ohhhhhh.....

Hm, makes me want to take a look at the ol' Zombie deck again...

Maverick676
02-14-2007, 08:11 PM
Ohhhhhh.....

Hm, makes me want to take a look at the ol' Zombie deck again...

WTF are you smoking?

Rasen
02-14-2007, 10:31 PM
WTF are you smoking?

Nostalgia.

BeeblesofLife
02-15-2007, 12:36 AM
OMG!!!
You guys mentioned smoking...YOU ARE SO COOL!
And btw, WHAT IN GODS NAME WERE PEOPLE SMOKING WHEN THEY SUGGESTED SURVIVAL???
Sorry, Needle backed by counters hurts that lil' plan.

Pinder
02-15-2007, 01:31 AM
OMG!!!
You guys mentioned smoking...YOU ARE SO COOL!
And btw, WHAT IN GODS NAME WERE PEOPLE SMOKING WHEN THEY SUGGESTED SURVIVAL???
Sorry, Needle backed by counters hurts that lil' plan.

I'd ask, but I already know what you're smoking.



On a slightly more 'has anything the fuck to do with this deck' note, Mav and I did some playtesting against Thresh the other day, and he was running Engineered Explosives. I must say that our percentages against Thresh packing EE aren't that great. But maybe it was just that I wasn't playing around it effectively. Or that I failed to draw Crystalline until after the 5th turn (cantrips or no) for 7 straight games.

Oh, and he was running Divert. Dear God that card is the tech. It's basically a 1 drop Mana Leak against every other counter. It was so annoying.

xsockmonkeyx
02-15-2007, 05:04 AM
1. Plated Sliver is a great Lackey-stopper. When building a deck for the Legacy format, one of the first things you have to ask yourself is "How do I deal with a first turn Goblin Lackey?" Your deck basically just has Force of Will (and not very many blue spells to go with it, I might add). I think you will agree that is not an ideal solution. I suppose you could throw a Bird of Paradise down and hope it will survive long enough to chump the Lackey, but that's a pipe dream. Your opponent will almost certainly kill your bird with a turn two Mogg Fanatic or Incinerator, and then swing away with his Lackey.

2. Yes, you will be spending some time blocking in this format, or at least holding back slivers to potentially block. When playing against other creature-based aggro decks, Slivers tends to play defense for the first few turns of the game. Even when attacking into a horde, having those extra points of toughness can really complicate combat match for your opponent.

3. Plated Sliver is just a nice, cheap beater, plain and simple. Add in a Muscle Sliver or two, and you're really getting a bargain out of that 1 mana you spent.

4. I've never seen this point mentioned before, but I think it's a worthwhile point. If you have Harmonic Sliver out, and someone drops a Chalice of the Void for 2 on you, you're either going to need to drop a Plated or another Harmonic to blow that Chalice up. Hey, trust me, it comes up.

5. Against an open board Plated deals a lot of your clock damage as it is the sliver leading the pack. In Hanni's 4th turn kill example plated deals 2+3+4=9 damage for a one mana investment.

Hanni
02-15-2007, 02:45 PM
OMG!!!
You guys mentioned smoking...YOU ARE SO COOL!
And btw, WHAT IN GODS NAME WERE PEOPLE SMOKING WHEN THEY SUGGESTED SURVIVAL???
Sorry, Needle backed by counters hurts that lil' plan.

A mind expanding drug that allows me to bust out h4rdc0r3 t3ch. Sure, Survival is dead against combo. Sure, it's not the greatest against Goblins. These are two matchups that are already positive matchups. It is extremely strong against Threshold, aside from their Pithing Needles, and it's extremely strong against everything else, especially board control. I do agree that Needle backed by counters hurts the Survival plan but only to the extent that they actually see Survival, only to the extent that they won't expect Survival in Slivers and will more than likely shuffle it away, and only to the extent that you can't back it up with your own counters. Granted, it's probably less spectacular game 1. Here's my plan...

UWgb Counter Slivers HE (Hanni's Edition)

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (21)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

Spells (21)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
4 Meddling Mage
2 Talon Sliver
1 Gemhide Sliver
3 Harmonic Sliver
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Survival of the Fittest

Survival of the Fittest will come in game 2 against any randomness like 43 Lands, Landstill, etc as well as Threshold in game 2. Survival is a huge bomb against Threshold after they side out Pithing Needle. The Gemhide is there to protect vs any type of Wastelock or whatever that may occur and is fetchable via Survival, the 2 Talon Slivers can come in vs Thresh game 3. I'm still running a 4c list because I love having 2 Hibernation Sliver (in addition to 4 Crystalline Sliver) in my maindeck. The only thing I feel the sideboard is lacking is the 3 Stifles that I used to run, which I brought in game 2 and 3 vs combo and Goblins.

The above is still a very rough sketch but it's very t3chy, especially against the mirror.

Oh and Beebles, I was smokin weed bro. :wink:

Volt
02-15-2007, 04:02 PM
Sideboard (15)
4 Meddling Mage
2 Talon Sliver
1 Gemhide Sliver
3 Harmonic Sliver
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Survival of the Fittest


Yeah, I have considered SotF out of the sideboard, too. That does seem pretty techy for certain matchups. But you are sacrificing in other matchups. Combo is a positive matchup, but not overwhelmingly so, I think. How much are the Stifles missed? Don't take that as a criticism. It's a legitimate question to which I don't know the answer. Unfortunately, my data for Solidarity and Iggy is pretty sparse at the moment. Hardly anybody in my area plays combo, and I'm not a big fan of playing on-line.

EDIT: While Stifle is great against Goblins, it's not actually necessary for that matchup. The first thing you want to side in against Goblins is Harmonic Sliver, because of Aether Vial, and quite likely Chalice of the Void and/or Pyrostatic Pillar out of Goblins sideboard.

Tosh
02-15-2007, 06:00 PM
Last Updated 2/12/07
//Land (18)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures (19)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

//Spells (23)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

I would like to propose the following sideboard:
//Sideboard (15)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Trinisphere*
3 Tormod's Crypt*
2 Stifle
2 Pithing Needle
1 Harmonic Sliver

*From what I could tell your two worst MU are Thresh (esp. w/ EE) and Combo (I don't think Meddling Mage is enough). Trinisphere can help against combo as well as goblins. Tormod's Crypt will greatly help the Thresh MU and with Stifle and Pithing Needle the EE should be handle-able. Some feedback would be nice. I am basing this sideboard completely on theory. If someone could either say if this works or not (through testing experience) or test it themselves I think it could be beneficial to the progress deck.

kicks_422
02-15-2007, 07:18 PM
*From what I could tell your two worst MU are Thresh (esp. w/ EE) and Combo (I don't think Meddling Mage is enough).

Um, no, they're not.

The perfect 19, as everyone has been calling it, has enough to take down Thresh. The control package MD is also a huge tool against combo, when paired with the quick beats of the slivers. Meddling Mage SB just makes it easier for MeatHooks.

And I don't think Trinisphere will help that much against Goblins, and would just hurt the deck more. I'm guessing you're thinking about nullifying Wachief with 3Sphere? Then we'd nullify our WHOLE deck, because their mana disruption becomes relevant if you play it.

Volt
02-15-2007, 07:28 PM
Um, no, they're not.

The perfect 19, as everyone has been calling it, has enough to take down Thresh. The control package MD is also a huge tool against combo, when paired with the quick beats of the slivers. Meddling Mage SB just makes it easier for MeatHooks.

And I don't think Trinisphere will help that much against Goblins, and would just hurt the deck more. I'm guessing you're thinking about nullifying Wachief with 3Sphere? Then we'd nullify our WHOLE deck, because their mana disruption becomes relevant if you play it.

I agree.

Hatfield Thresh doesn't run EE. Even Bardo Thresh has largely gone away from it. I suppose it's possible it will make a comeback if they perceive Slivers as a problem. In that case, Stifle or Pithing Needle should be a sufficient answer.

Tosh
02-15-2007, 08:02 PM
Um, no, they're not.

The perfect 19, as everyone has been calling it, has enough to take down Thresh. The control package MD is also a huge tool against combo, when paired with the quick beats of the slivers. Meddling Mage SB just makes it easier for MeatHooks.

So I guess that I'm a little confused... What are the worst MU? Don't say none because I know that isn't true. I just saw Pinder and Mav playtest some on Tuesday and notice that Thresh (granted it was a little different from common builds) comepletely owned MeatHooks. Combo decks are becoming used to counter-magic and so they generally play around them (e.g. Iggy Pop's MD Defense Grids) and Meddling Mage alone is not enough to consider combo a good MU.

*Note: Do not consider the sideboard when deciding what the bad MU are because the point is to refine the sideboard to be able to handle the bad MU as best as possible.

Edit: Oh yeah, I remembered that Truffle Shuffle is a very bad MU (all the board sweep) but I'm not sure how prominent it will be @ GP.


And I don't think Trinisphere will help that much against Goblins, and would just hurt the deck more. I'm guessing you're thinking about nullifying Wachief with 3Sphere? Then we'd nullify our WHOLE deck, because their mana disruption becomes relevant if you play it.

Their mana disruption also slows them down as well. Another help against their mana disruption is Needle = Port and Stifle = Wasteland. But again to clarify: this is just an untested suggestion.

Also:
Don't go all psycho on me just because I suggested that MeatHooks isn't "good against everything!!111eleventy-one!" I would like to see you guys do well at GP.

Volt
02-15-2007, 08:29 PM
So I guess that I'm a little confused... What are the worst MU? Don't say none because I know that isn't true. I just saw Pinder and Mav playtest some on Tuesday and notice that Thresh (granted it was a little different from common builds) comepletely owned MeatHooks. Combo decks are becoming used to counter-magic and so they generally play around them (e.g. Iggy Pop's MD Defense Grids) and Meddling Mage alone is not enough to consider combo a good MU.

*Note: Do not consider the sideboard when deciding what the bad MU are because the point is to refine the sideboard to be able to handle the bad MU as best as possible.

Edit: Oh yeah, I remembered that Truffle Shuffle is a very bad MU (all the board sweep) but I'm not sure how prominent it will be @ GP.


I would like to see this build of Thresh that "completely owned" Meat Hooks. It most certainly must be a non-standard build. Pinder mentioned Engineered Explosives and Divert (!) which are not typical maindeck or even sideboard options for most Thresh decks. I think Mav was also running maindeck Meddling Mages, which are pretty good against us, but are not standard in Hatfield Thresh (which I believe is the more popular build right now).

Yes, Truffle Shuffle is a horrible matchup for slivers. Any deck built around Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God, Damnation, or similar board-sweepers is going to be a rough matchup for us. Stax-type decks are also tough before sideboarding. Aside from that, there really aren't many bad matchups for us.

xsockmonkeyx
02-15-2007, 08:55 PM
Yes, Truffle Shuffle is a horrible matchup for slivers. Any deck built around Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God, Damnation, or similar board-sweepers is going to be a rough matchup for us. Stax-type decks are also tough before sideboarding. Aside from that, there really aren't many bad matchups for us.

Deadguy Ale is tough, as is Pox. Red Death is not looking good either from what Ive seen. Combo is no walk in the park either. Solidarity can out draw your hate and although your clock is faster than most aggro control they will probably get to turn 6. TES is utterly terrible. They can kill you before your mage comes online and can fight through the hate even when you pack it.

kicks_422
02-15-2007, 09:06 PM
I would say that Thresh is more or less even, depending on playskill. Even though combo has evolved to be able to get around counters, it's still combo, and they HAVE to draw their control hate (FoW's for Solidarity, Xantid Swarms for TES, discard for Belcher, etc.) before they go off. If they don't have it in their opening grip, searching for it allows us to beat down with our Scythes of Death (heh, I like making up names for slivers).

Anything base-black is a tough match-up, as well as anything with sweepers. I believe that's why another splash color in black (as Hanni has been working on) is being tested, for Hibernation Sliver (I'm not saying that that's all black has to offer, though)

Volt
02-15-2007, 09:18 PM
TES is utterly terrible. They can kill you before your mage comes online and can fight through the hate even when you pack it.

Is TES really that bad? I can see game 1 being bad, but after sideboarding it shouldn't be too bad. I think the key is to slow-play, actually. Never ever tap out during your turn -- not even on turn 1.

Also, Deadguy and Pox are tough matchups, but not worse than 50/50 in my experience.


I would say that Thresh is more or less even, depending on playskill.

Yeah, playskill is a big factor, but really it's more about the Thresh build. Bardo Thresh is significantly tougher for us because of the Mages. Hatfield Thresh is actually pretty easy to beat. Of course, if you start throwing Engineered Explosives into either build (which, again, is not currently the standard), that increases the difficulty level. Stifle or Pithing Needle out of the sideboard should take care of that, though.

xsockmonkeyx
02-15-2007, 09:22 PM
Is TES really that bad?

Yes, TES is the only deck I truly fear. You can pack all the hate you want but they can still outrace it, circumvent it, or ignore it (Mage on accelleration piece) depending on how things play out.

Volt
02-15-2007, 09:27 PM
Yes, TES is the only deck I truly fear. You can pack all the hate you want but they can still outrace it, circumvent it, or ignore it (Mage on accelleration piece) depending on how things play out.

Well, then TES must be the deck to beat. If we can't handle it with Meddling Mages, Force of Wills, Dazes, Counterspells, Stifles, and a pretty good clock, what hope is there for anyone else?

xsockmonkeyx
02-15-2007, 09:41 PM
Its not unbeatable, but its pretty fucking good. Your best shot is to keep stifle mana open at all times, forcing or swordsing swarms, and naming acceleration with your mage. If you dont, you could be staring down a dozen goblin tokens as early as turn 1.

Maverick676
02-16-2007, 01:22 AM
I would like to see this build of Thresh that "completely owned" Meat Hooks. It most certainly must be a non-standard build. Pinder mentioned Engineered Explosives and Divert (!) which are not typical maindeck or even sideboard options for most Thresh decks. I think Mav was also running maindeck Meddling Mages.

Here's my current thresh build, it beat slivers seven games in a row:

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 forest

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Divert*

4 Brainstorm
4 serum Visions
4 Mental Note

SB--------------------
1 Mystic Enforcer
2 Divert*
2 Krosan Grip*
3 Armageddon
3 Dueling Grounds*
4 Pithing Needle

*These are some new card choices I'm testing for my specific metagame; which includes several variations of counterbalance (hence the grips) and various black disruption decks. Dueling Grounds is my new experimental tech against gobs.

Volt
02-16-2007, 01:43 AM
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 forest

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Divert*

4 Brainstorm
4 serum Visions
4 Mental Note


Yeah, I can see how this build would beat slivers, although 7 in a row was probably a bit of an anomaly.

Kronicler
02-16-2007, 01:44 AM
I tested TES vs UWg Counterslivers today (Agro Zombies was the pilot) for a little bit and went 4-0 pre board. While some of the games were close, the matchup was definately in TES's favor. Post board we only played 2 games, slivers winning both. The post board games are a terrible sample though... as in retrospec I played 1 game horribly, and the other game I was mana screwed, 1 mana source away from the stonecold nuts. Frankly, mages really don't help that much against TES. You can name 1 of 2 win conditions then get rolled by the other, 1 of 3 tutors and sometimes really screw your opponent, or you can name 1 of 10984203 accelerants, which can, once again, sometimes completely screw your opponent. Both the post board games slivers did get down a mage (naming LED both times), but it never made any significant difference. Stifles can be irritating, but don't help against a 1st turn xantid.

Kronicler

Pinder
02-16-2007, 02:55 AM
Yeah, I can see how this build would beat slivers, although 7 in a row was probably a bit of an anomaly.

It was. Even though that particular list was tough already, this was further exacerbated by the fact that in all 7 games, I didn't draw Crystalline until turn 7-8ish. If I had gotten one down early, then I would have been able to ignore his targeted removal and concentrated on stopping EE, but having to counter his swords as well as trying to keep his beats off of me and worry about EE was just a pain.

And it should also be kept in mind that we didn't sideboard during any of those games.

Hanni
02-16-2007, 12:35 PM
I've played vs TES a few times so far and it's not that bad. If you've never played against TES before, you're probably going to lose the first handful of games. TES is very resilient but it's still a combo deck.

The biggest thing to keep in mind against TES is that you can't board out you're creature removal... Confidant is extremely strong for them and Xantid Swarm will render your countermagic useless. Other than that, it's aggro/control vs combo.

You Force the draw spell or tutor they needed and beatdown while you can. You can't really fizzle them completely since they have many ways to bounce back, but it's not hard to win the tempo war and beatdown for the win.

Meddling Mages are strong if you know what to name and you can always sideboard Stifles and Duresses if you feel you need more strength.

Personally, I've found it to be around 50/50 preboard (because you usually won't know that it's combo right away in game 1) which changes to about a 60/40 postboard.

If they have Defense Grid, you have Harmonic Sliver. If they have Xantid Swarm, you have StP. I'd be more worried about discard, personally.

The board plan I used vs TES:

-2 Crystalline Sliver
-2 Hibernation Sliver
-3 Winged Sliver
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Stifle

I didn't really have too many problems postboard... Meddling Mage won't always be useful but it still helps, I tried naming off the draw/tutor spells that I had seen game 1 with my Mages. If you have 2 Mages in hand, you can simply go EtW Tendrils to cut them off of win conditions. Otherwise, it's better to name off a draw/tutor and counter the other one. StP answers Xantid, Harmonic Sliver (or leaving 3 open with Fow/Daze) answers Defense Grid. You have to eat Duress though. Dark Confidant is probably the worst thing you can see postboard if you don't have an answer to it. As long as your clock is good though, and you see at least 1-2 pieces of disruption, you should be able to win. If they try to fast combo you, they often fall on their face. If they slow combo you, you have to hope your clock is fast enough or they will out resource you. This is all from my experiences though.

If Threshold with 2 EE's is a hard matchup, board Stifles. If you wanna get seriously techy, board Loaming Shamans. I haven't ran into any Threshold decks with maindeck Engineered Explosives and the one time I did see EE in a postboard, I managed to Force + Counterspell it. If you're REALLY worried about EE, run Hibernation Slivers. I don't see this problem being a huge metagame issue, at least not right now.

I'm also not understanding why people think the decks hardest matchups are Threshold and TES. These are hardly what you have to worry about. In fact, I find my Threshold matchup pretty good... game 1 is a war of early game tempo with the winner winning the matchup most of the time. This can go either way, which is about 50/50 from testing so far. Post board, Talon Slivers deal with the largest issue... being able to play defense early game while their guys outsize you (and they will outsize you). Being able to survive the early beatdown is crucial... and if you do, you'll usually win. However, I'm finding Survival out of the board to be a house against Threshold... Threshold runs no card advantage and card advantage is king in the mirror. I also don't find TES that bad. It's the hardest combo matchup, but it's still combo... if you know how to pilot aggro/control vs combo and you know about TES, you won't be getting steamrolled.

The hardest matchup that I've come across so far is board control. MWC, Landstill, whatever. Anything that runs a healthy amount of mass removal and card advantage is difficult.

I also want to somehow fit Stifles back into my sideboard but I really want Survival in there. I'll do more playtesting and figure out what I'd rather have.

xsockmonkeyx
02-16-2007, 05:16 PM
Personally, I've found it to be around 50/50 preboard (because you usually won't know that it's combo right away in game 1) which changes to about a 60/40 postboard.

What do you mean? If they lead with Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, etc., then isnt it obvious that they are playing TES? What other (relevant) deck in legacy drops those 1st turn?

Hanni
02-16-2007, 05:21 PM
I've played against alot of randomness on MWS where my opponent will play a City of Brass and it will not be TES. I suppose in a large tournament setting this won't be the case but I'm sure there will still be some randomness at GP Columbus that will use City of Brass and won't be TES. The same can be applied to Gemstone Mine is some cases.

Another thing too is that you may figure out that they are playing TES after they drop the first land but you may keep a hand that can't handle combo based on the fact that you didn't mulligan correctly because you didn't know what you were playing before the game started.

However, I think I wrote down my sideboard plan a little incorrectly because I think I brought in 2 Harmonic Slivers in a few postboard games (I think I dropped 2 Crystallines for them).

Aggro_zombies
02-18-2007, 02:16 AM
Yes, TES can be a bit of a problem, but I wasn't sure how to board against it initially since it's so resilient and fast. However, I can say that Harmonic Sliver is definitely useful against TES for things other than Defense Grid - Chrome Mox hates it, for example. I took this deck to a small tournament today and finished second (beating Kronicler 2-1). I only lost to Goblins in the finals because he drew the one card in his deck that could possibly stop me...I had lethal damage on the board but was at three life, and he has a Mogg Fanatic (tapped) and no cards in hand. If he drew anything other than Siege-Gang Commander, it was all over. But guess what he draws...and I had no Force to stop it. *frown* However, this deck definitely eats Goblins alive. Even if they get the God Draw (which has happened against me before), you can stabilize in late game and build your forces until you can make a lethal assault in one attack. It's great to see Gobs players suicidally sending waves of guys at you to try to push damage through, only to have 90% of their little green men eaten alive. One question I have is what this deck's plan for Burn is. I realize that Crystalline stops Burn from killing your guys, but that doesn't seem so hot when all that burn gets pointed at you instead. Someone always shows up to a tournament with Burn around here, so I was wondering if maybe a few Worships wouldn't be good for the board...it would also help against lucky Goblins players like the one that did me in this afternoon. =/

Kronicler
02-18-2007, 03:31 AM
Hehe, grats again AZ. You straight up handed my ass to me on a silver plater games 2 and 3! But yeah, the goblins matchup seems amazing, the combo match is fine post board, thresh seems good as well (w/o EE).... wtf does this deck lose to?? Hmmm..... time to break down my combo deck and make slivers I think :cool: .

Kronicler

Aggro_zombies
02-18-2007, 05:32 AM
Hehe, grats again AZ. You straight up handed my ass to me on a silver plater games 2 and 3! But yeah, the goblins matchup seems amazing, the combo match is fine post board, thresh seems good as well (w/o EE).... wtf does this deck lose to?? Hmmm..... time to break down my combo deck and make slivers I think :cool: .

Kronicler
It loses to Pox and BoardControl.dec. Anything with lots of nonbasic land hate or lots of mass removal will rape you.

And thank you.

xsockmonkeyx
02-18-2007, 10:15 AM
Yes, TES can be a bit of a problem, but I wasn't sure how to board against it initially since it's so resilient and fast. However, I can say that Harmonic Sliver is definitely useful against TES for things other than Defense Grid - Chrome Mox hates it, for example. I took this deck to a small tournament today and finished second (beating Kronicler 2-1). I only lost to Goblins in the finals because he drew the one card in his deck that could possibly stop me

What did your list, board look like?

Pinder
02-18-2007, 10:20 AM
One question I have is what this deck's plan for Burn is. I realize that Crystalline stops Burn from killing your guys, but that doesn't seem so hot when all that burn gets pointed at you instead. Someone always shows up to a tournament with Burn around here, so I was wondering if maybe a few Worships wouldn't be good for the board...it would also help against lucky Goblins players like the one that did me in this afternoon. =/

The matchup against burn has been brought up before, and it is a little bad because they have no choice but to point all of their burn at you. Mav and I find that typically you have to treat it a lot like a combo deck at that point, and try to race. We find that whenever they beat you, they usually beat you by one turn. I run already run Worship as a 2-of in my board for this express purpose. And it's not so bad against Gobs either.

Oh, and as a side note: Typically it's good to side in 1-2 Harmonic against Burn, as they will likely be siding in Pyrostatic Pillar (if they're not maindecking it). Pyrostatic Pillat = no fun for us.


wtf does this deck lose to??

It loses to Pox and BoardControl.dec. Anything with lots of nonbasic land hate or lots of mass removal will rape you.

Say hello to Truffle Shuffle, arguably our worst matchup.

But yeah, any sort of heavy control (Landstill is not really fun fior us either, but doable) or nontargeted removal (Pox, anyone?), or even heavy discard is sort of bad for us.

In essence, things with black in them, because they can also bring in Engineered Plague from the side.

xsockmonkeyx
02-18-2007, 10:28 AM
In essence, things with black in them, because they can also bring in Engineered Plague from the side.

Engineered Plague is kinda crappy against slivers. With 8 muscle and 4 plated (and harmonic in the board) EP's power is way lower than say against goblins.

sammiel
02-18-2007, 10:45 AM
Engineered Plague is kinda crappy against slivers. With 8 muscle and 4 plated (and harmonic in the board) EP's power is way lower than say against goblins.


It still makes them alot easier to deal with, and when supplemented with some kind of mass removal (I run plague and pyroclasm in my fish build) it can make the matchup manageable.

Pinder
02-18-2007, 12:46 PM
Engineered Plague is kinda crappy against slivers. With 8 muscle and 4 plated (and harmonic in the board) EP's power is way lower than say against goblins.

You have a point there. I haven't really done much testing against EP post Planar Chaos, and you're probably right. We're a lot more resilient now with 12 maindeck ways to increase toughness.


(I run plague and pyroclasm in my fish build)

Pyroclasm does next to nothing against us anymore. If we have any combination of 2 Plated, Muscle, or Sinew out, pyroclasm doesn't do anything. It's actually one of the reasons that Plated made it into the main in the first place.

sammiel
02-18-2007, 01:11 PM
You have a point there. I haven't really done much testing against EP post Planar Chaos, and you're probably right. We're a lot more resilient now with 12 maindeck ways to increase toughness.



Pyroclasm does next to nothing against us anymore. If we have any combination of 2 Plated, Muscle, or Sinew out, pyroclasm doesn't do anything. It's actually one of the reasons that Plated made it into the main in the first place.



I said plague AND pyroclasm. I never said it was some magical sliver killing machine, I just said it made it workable.

Pinder
02-18-2007, 01:21 PM
I'll concede that it would be hard to deal with a resolved pyroclasm under a plague or two.

BeeblesofLife
02-19-2007, 03:07 PM
Out of curiousity, does anyone have any pox MU data?
I think with the 8 Muscle Sliver count I think your game against it would be MUCH better. But wouldnt early game LD become a bit of a problem in the long run? Dunno, I'm a fan of the build and I hope you go all the way with it.

Second, with the whole Epic Storm thing.
Couldnt you put something in like Rule of Law or Arcane Labratory to help out with that? In my opinion that would also help out with the Solidarity MU as well. And do you have any Solidarity MU data?

kicks_422
02-19-2007, 05:17 PM
Pox is baaaaaad. 8 pump slivers don't help much when all your land is gone, and all their removal is non-targeted (Pox, Smallpox); coupled with discard, it's such a tough match.

The problem with those cards is that they're not threats. They're good SB cards against combo if you're playing control, but if you're aggro, you want to keep applying pressure, hence the popularity of Meddling Mage, True Believer, Glowrider, etc.

I think I'm the only one still playing 4 Stifles main... :tongue:

Pinder
02-19-2007, 07:32 PM
Pox is baaaaaad. 8 pump slivers don't help much when all your land is gone, and all their removal is non-targeted (Pox, Smallpox); coupled with discard, it's such a tough match.

The problem with those cards is that they're not threats. They're good SB cards against combo if you're playing control, but if you're aggro, you want to keep applying pressure, hence the popularity of Meddling Mage, True Believer, Glowrider, etc.

I think I'm the only one still playing 4 Stifles main... :tongue:

I think you are too, but it's more a matter of choice, really. Daze and Stifle are both reall great cards.

As for the Pox matchup, the fact that all of their removal (that I can think of) is non-targeted is really annoying. It's probably a good idea to side out Crystalline altogether, and board in Mages to name Pox and LD. The LD is also bad for us. Wasteland + Sinkhole = them killing our nonbasics and basics.

From what little data I've been able to collect (playing against Beebles, ironically), the best strategy I can think of is to keep exactly 2-3 slivers on the table, and hold the rest. That way, regardless of whether the pox is large or small, you'll still only be saccing 1 creature to it. Then you can replace it with one in your hand. This also lets you keep cards to pad you hand so you can keep the important spells in against Pox. You only need 2-3 to be able to swing for 4-5 a turn, and that's a decent enough clock, especially if you can keep it going through Poxes. A table:


1 Creature: Sac 1, 0 Left
2 Creatures: Sac 1, 1 Left
3 Creatures: Sac 1, 2 Left
4 Creatures: Sac 2, 2 Left
5 Creatures: Sac 2, 3 Left
6 Creatures: Sac 2, 4 Left
7 Creatures: Sac 3, 4 Left
8 Creatures: Sac 3, 5 Left
9 Creatures: Sac 3, 6 Left
10 Creatures: Sac 4, 6 Left


Oh, and Plated is great in this matchup. The toughness boost is largely irrelevant, but having a cheap, easily replacable sliver to sac so you don't have to sac your Crystallines or Muscle/Sinew (arguably the two you want to see most) is pretty good.

As for the Solidarity matchup, Volt did some testing with earlier lists and found that it was about even preboard, and after boarding it was around 70/30 because of Mage. Of course, this was when we still ran maindeck Stifles, so our preboard matchup may have worsened (or gotten better now that we have a better clock) our postboard will likely stay much the same.

Volt
02-19-2007, 07:46 PM
As for the Solidarity matchup, Volt did some testing with earlier lists and found that it was about even preboard, and after boarding it was around 70/30 because of Mage. Of course, this was when we still ran maindeck Stifles, so our preboard matchup may have worsened (or gotten better now that we have a better clock) our postboard will likely stay much the same.

Actually, Daze is pretty good against Solidarity -- probably just about as good as Stifle. MeatHooks has a fast clock and a pretty good disruption package (particularly after sideboarding). I hesitate to quote win percentages, because it varies greatly depending on the skill level of the Solidarity player. If they're the slightest bit unsure about what they're doing, they stand almost no chance. Playing against a true Solidarity master (which I have not had the opportunity to do) might be another matter, though.

BeeblesofLife
02-19-2007, 08:25 PM
Well Pinder, along with Pox there are other cards to consider.
Pox players run Dystopia, that kills all but type of sliver in your build. Infest and E.plague which dampers your critters a little bit. The best way to beat pox, and I can't believe i'm telling you this, is to put as many critters on the table and swing very quickly. Oh, and keg set at two is the shiznet against you guys. But still its a very hard round for both sides.

Oh and Pinder, tell mav i'll be play testing with you guys tomorrow!

Pinder
02-19-2007, 11:55 PM
Well Pinder, along with Pox there are other cards to consider.
Pox players run Dystopia, that kills all but type of sliver in your build. Infest and E.plague which dampers your critters a little bit. The best way to beat pox, and I can't believe i'm telling you this, is to put as many critters on the table and swing very quickly. Oh, and keg set at two is the shiznet against you guys. But still its a very hard round for both sides.


Hmmm...I hadn't considered that. I think our best bet is to just fucking counter Pox et al, though. If those don't' resolve, we beat the shit out of you.



Oh and Pinder, tell mav i'll be play testing with you guys tomorrow!

You know this board has a PM function, right?

Maverick676
02-20-2007, 04:12 AM
You know how you beat pox? compost.

Pinder
02-20-2007, 08:00 AM
Actually, Compost would be sexy against other things, too, like Sui Black, Red Death, MBC, and Mono Black Discard (Hymn = Discard 2, draw 1).

I'm not sure if any of these matchups really warrants a dedicated sideboard slot, but Compost is a nice option if they're present in your meta.

It's best against Pox, though, because when they discard black cards to Pox, you draw that many cards plus a card for Pox hitting the yard. Mmmm....

edit: On a side note, it seems that Solidarity is splashing red now for Sudden Shock, Startstorm, and Urza's Rage. This could be bad, as Starstorm is the only one of those we can counter, and if it does resolve, it wrecks us. Head over to the Solidarity thread in LMF for more info.

Maverick676
02-20-2007, 05:36 PM
they are not maindecking those however, so all we have to do is counter or mage the cunning wish (as usual).

Volt
02-20-2007, 05:55 PM
they are not maindecking those however, so all we have to do is counter or mage the cunning wish (as usual).

Yep. Along the same lines, two Mages naming High Tide and Cunning Wish, in that order, still pretty much shuts the deck down.

I think there's going to be a lot of resistance to playing Crimson Tide anyway, due to the weakened matchup against Goblins.

Pinder
02-20-2007, 06:13 PM
Yep. Along the same lines, two Mages naming High Tide and Cunning Wish, in that order, still pretty much shuts the deck down.


I think the thing you guys are forgetting, is that we won't have Mage until postboard, which means that by G2, those cards could very well be in the maindeck. Sudden Shock worries me the most, as it's uncounterable Mage removal.

But I think our increased clock will help more than anything against Solidarity, really. The extra 4 Muscle Slivers makes turn 4-5 kills a lot more plausible.

Volt
02-20-2007, 06:54 PM
I think the thing you guys are forgetting, is that we won't have Mage until postboard, which means that by G2, those cards could very well be in the maindeck. Sudden Shock worries me the most, as it's uncounterable Mage removal.

But I think our increased clock will help more than anything against Solidarity, really. The extra 4 Muscle Slivers makes turn 4-5 kills a lot more plausible.

I don't think red spells ever get sided in. They keep 1 of each in the board as Wish targets. I might be wrong, but I don't think it's anything to worry about.

Deep6er
02-20-2007, 07:15 PM
I don't think red spells ever get sided in. They keep 1 of each in the board as Wish targets. I might be wrong, but I don't think it's anything to worry about.

Frown. I didn't want to ACTUALLY post in this thread, but looks like I have no choice. Red spells DO in fact get boarded in against you. Also, killing random Muscle Slivers will do quite a number on your clock. Out of curiosity, who have you guys been testing against? I have different matchup results than you, and I'm curious as to who you've been testing against so I can tell them they're fucking up.

Volt
02-20-2007, 07:23 PM
Frown. I didn't want to ACTUALLY post in this thread, but looks like I have no choice. Red spells DO in fact get boarded in against you. Also, killing random Muscle Slivers will do quite a number on your clock. Out of curiosity, who have you guys been testing against? I have different matchup results than you, and I'm curious as to who you've been testing against so I can tell them they're fucking up.

Sorry to drag you into our humble little thread. :wink:

As far as who I have playtested against... I'm not going to throw anyone under a bus. However, if you're down for some MWS playtesting some time, let me know. I would like to have some solid playtesting results that I don't have to put caveats on. PM me if you're interested.

Pinder
02-21-2007, 01:15 AM
As far as who I have playtested against... I'm not going to throw anyone under a bus.


I don't mind, though. Earlier today the Info-Ninjas playtested against Solidarity (the blue one, none of this newfangled red stuff). In 7 preboard games, MeatHooks went 5-2. Now, I'm not saying 'OMG liek we toally beat Solidarity!!!11!!1', because there are a few things worth noting:

1) None of us have much experience playing Solidarity
2) Some of us don't have a ton of experience playing MeatHooks (pretty much just me and Mav).
3) It wasn't 1 on 1 the whole time, the decks switched hands a bit.

So our testing results are bound to be a little skewed, I admit. Even so, I'm thinking that preboard we're no worse off than, say 55/45 in Solidarity's favor. You play beats quick, you apply beats quick, and force them to go off. Sometimes they win, sometimes they don't. It could go either way.

We didn't play any postboard games, but I can imagine the matchup would only improve what with the Mages and Stifles and all.

And as far as sideboarding, this seems to work pretty well:

-4 StP
-3 Winged Sliver
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Stifle



However, if you're down for some MWS playtesting some time, let me know. I would like to have some solid playtesting results that I don't have to put caveats on. PM me if you're interested.

The same goes for me. I would love to playtest against someone who knows what they're doing.

Kronicler
02-21-2007, 02:29 AM
So what is the current sideboard outside of 4 mage and 3 stifle? I haven't seen much talk on that lately. Harmonic Sliver? Needles? Worship? Talon Sliver? EE? Someone toss it out here.

Kronicler

Volt
02-21-2007, 02:45 AM
So what is the current sideboard outside of 4 mage and 3 stifle? I haven't seen much talk on that lately. Harmonic Sliver? Needles? Worship? Talon Sliver? EE? Someone toss it out here.

Kronicler

Well, if you're going to a large tournament, I think you start with:
4 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle

The remaining 4 can be some combination of Worship, Tormod's Crypt, Jotun Grunt, Loaming Shaman, Talon Sliiver, blue blasts, Engineered Explosives, Disrupt, Compost, and, um, probably a few other things.

Maverick676
02-21-2007, 04:18 AM
4 harmonic seems like overkill. 2 or 3 might be a better number I think a 2/2 split of harmonic and disenchant/naturalize/krosan grip might be a better way to go. My reasoning behind this is in case you run into something like humility, in which case harmonic does absolutely zip.

Deep6er
02-21-2007, 10:35 AM
I don't mind, though. Earlier today the Info-Ninjas playtested against Solidarity (the blue one, none of this newfangled red stuff). In 7 preboard games, MeatHooks went 5-2. Now, I'm not saying 'OMG liek we toally beat Solidarity!!!11!!1', because there are a few things worth noting:

1) None of us have much experience playing Solidarity
2) Some of us don't have a ton of experience playing MeatHooks (pretty much just me and Mav).
3) It wasn't 1 on 1 the whole time, the decks switched hands a bit.

So our testing results are bound to be a little skewed, I admit. Even so, I'm thinking that preboard we're no worse off than, say 55/45 in Solidarity's favor. You play beats quick, you apply beats quick, and force them to go off. Sometimes they win, sometimes they don't. It could go either way.

We didn't play any postboard games, but I can imagine the matchup would only improve what with the Mages and Stifles and all.

And as far as sideboarding, this seems to work pretty well:

-4 StP
-3 Winged Sliver
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Stifle



The same goes for me. I would love to playtest against someone who knows what they're doing.

I guess this is as good a place as any to bring this up. I don't own a computer. Obviously, by extension, I don't have MWS. My phone has internet access and I use it to post here. Also, and I spoke with Volt about this, not too many people are excited about playing Solidarity online. The amount of clicking is obscene. So, I'll tell you what I told him. I'll look around, but I can't guarantee anything. Also, on a more topic-y note, which list of mine were you playing against?

Volt
02-21-2007, 11:21 AM
4 harmonic seems like overkill. 2 or 3 might be a better number I think a 2/2 split of harmonic and disenchant/naturalize/krosan grip might be a better way to go. My reasoning behind this is in case you run into something like humility, in which case harmonic does absolutely zip.

I wouldn't go below 3 Harmonics. They're just so valuable against Stax, Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, Affinity, etc. I'll take my chances with Humility.

Finn
02-21-2007, 11:49 AM
Isn't the Solidarity matchup essentially something in between the two versions of Thresh? More like red Thresh preboard and more like white Thresh post?

I have to believe that Solidarity will be one of your better matchups, even with the Stifles out of the main.

Tosh
02-21-2007, 12:25 PM
This is the solidarity list that I was using:
12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

4 High Tide
3 Reset
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
3 Meditate
4 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
3 Disrupt
2 Twincast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Reset
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Stroke of Genius

A week or two ago when I proxied this up, this was the latest full list that was posted. (with some modifications: -1 Brainfreeze MD +1 Twincast MD, and I switched Reset and Turnabout so the 4th Reset was in SB not the 4th Turnabout).

Pinder
02-21-2007, 12:27 PM
Also, on a more topic-y note, which list of mine were you playing against?

I wasn't the one who proxied it up (Klaan was), so I'm honestly not sure which list it was. I'm assuming it's fairly standard though (High Tide, Reset, Meditate, Turnabout, Brainstorm, Impulse, Opt, Force, etc, etc.) Is there any particular list we should be using?

edit: Okay, so......look up.

Volt
02-21-2007, 12:41 PM
Isn't the Solidarity matchup essentially something in between the two versions of Thresh? More like red Thresh preboard and more like white Thresh post?

I have to believe that Solidarity will be one of your better matchups, even with the Stifles out of the main.

That's pretty accurate, I think. I'd say it's perhaps slightly worse than UGr Thresh pre-board, but significantly better post-board.

Deep6er
02-21-2007, 01:06 PM
I don't like that list. Disrupt sucks. Also, it should be Turnabout in the board instead of Reset. Anyway, Peek is amazing against you and I don't understand why you don't start testing my new list as it's going to be very strong against you.

Pinder
02-21-2007, 04:46 PM
I don't like that list. Disrupt sucks. Also, it should be Turnabout in the board instead of Reset. Anyway, Peek is amazing against you and I don't understand why you don't start testing my new list as it's going to be very strong against you.

PM me the list (and some tips maybe so we don't suck at playing it), and the Ninjas will be testig it by tomorrow.

Maverick676
02-22-2007, 02:30 AM
Speaking of testing, I'm curious as to what people's gauntlets look like in preparation for GP columbus.


Pinder's and mine is currently:

UGW Thresh
Solidarity
Goblins
Pox (one of our friends plays this deck so we figured we might as well test against it).

Pinder
02-22-2007, 02:36 AM
I think we should tack on Stompy of both the Angel and Faerie variety, as well as TES. I think they'll make a decent showing at GP Columbus. Enough of a showing that we need to have a gameplan, anyway.

Kronicler
02-22-2007, 09:30 AM
I think we should tack on Stompy of both the Angel and Faerie variety, as well as TES. I think they'll make a decent showing at GP Columbus. Enough of a showing that we need to have a gameplan, anyway.

I agree, but the problem with testing against AS and FS is that there isn't an accepted list for either. You can get prety close to accepted with FS, but AS seems to have a lot of different variations. One things though, is that it might be nice if this deck had an out to chalice at 2, as it completely kills the deck, besides countermagic. In the few times that AZ and myself have played FS vs Meathooks, I either managed to get an early challice at 2, usually backed by a force, or the threat of a challice at 2 forced AZ to leave his mana open for counterspell (as I don't think he had a force) which in turn let my threats and equipment resolve.... so I just won. Also, very few people actually know how to play TES, so, just like solidarity, the pilot could greatly scew the results.

Kronicler

Pinder
02-22-2007, 11:19 AM
One things though, is that it might be nice if this deck had an out to chalice at 2, as it completely kills the deck, besides countermagic.


We did when we ran Harmonic in the main (yay for 3 mana 1/1's), but we moved that to the board for savage beatstickery. You can bet that Harmonic will come in G2 against both Faerie and Angel Stompy, as well as needle, most likely.

Volt
02-22-2007, 11:46 AM
I have tested against Faerie Stompy and the new mono-white Angel Stompy. FS is tougher because of the maindeck Chalices and Trinket Mages. If they resolve a Chalice for 2, you scoop. Chalice for 1 is annoying, but not a back-breaker. I found it to be about 50/50 in game 1. You beat AS simply by playing out slivers as fast as you can and countering the Cataclysm. Occasionally, they'll steal a game anyway with a resolved Exalted or an equipped Priest, but slivers are favored.

Both matchups become considerably easier once you side in 3-4 Harmonic Slivers.

Tosh
02-22-2007, 02:14 PM
Don't foget UWb Fish in that gauntlet! :P
I don't think that FS will make a huge appearance at GP; however, I think AS in its many variants will be present.

Pinder
02-22-2007, 02:19 PM
Both matchups become considerably easier once you side in 3-4 Harmonic Slivers.

I wouldn't board more than 3 Harmonics, and I think that you're probably fine with only 2 in the board if you have to. But that's just me.

xsockmonkeyx
02-22-2007, 02:20 PM
(E)ATS and other survival decks are seeing a resurgence. Should probably test that too.

Maverick676
02-23-2007, 02:24 AM
I did some playtesting tonight against solidarity and the results were quite promising. We played 10 games 5 preboard 5 postboard. I went 8-2, the wierd part was the two loses were postboard. My current sideboard strategy is -2 winged sliver -4 swords to plowshares +2 Armageddon +4 Meddling Mage.

Kronicler
02-23-2007, 03:23 AM
I feel like 3x stifle would help more vs solidarity than 2x geddon. While you can obviously use it to stifle the storm on brainfreeze, you can also stifle an early fetch which, on occasion, will straight up win you the game (kept a 1 land hand with 2 brainstorms, reset, high tide, and meditate, eh? G fkn G).

Kronicler

Maverick676
02-23-2007, 03:38 AM
I don't think stifle reall has a place in the deck anymore. With the faster clock daze is a much better fit. Also I don't feel that it adds enough to matchups to be in the sideboard anymore either. Something like armageddon is there for the control matchup, I bring it in against solidarity because it helps more than the 2x winged sliver will.

Ookami
02-24-2007, 06:08 PM
I think Armageddon is better than stifle against solidarity because without land, Solidarity can't go off.

In response to stifle, they'll remand they're brainfreeze and play it again, or just force the stifle. Holding on to a stifle or two against solidarity sounds good, but by the time you have a chance to use it on they're brainfreeze, they'll have enough counter magic to stop it, unless you have six lands out, and in your hand you're holding 2 stifles, 2 counterspells, 2 force and 2 random blue cards. And even then they're likely to get around it.

Pinder
02-24-2007, 06:21 PM
I think Armageddon is better than stifle against solidarity because without land, Solidarity can't go off.

In response to stifle, they'll remand they're brainfreeze and play it again, or just force the stifle. Holding on to a stifle or two against solidarity sounds good, but by the time you have a chance to use it on they're brainfreeze, they'll have enough counter magic to stop it, unless you have six lands out, and in your hand you're holding 2 stifles, 2 counterspells, 2 force and 2 random blue cards. And even then they're likely to get around it.

The man speaks thruth. Once you've established a board postition, a resolved Armageddon kills Solidarity.

Kokusho17
02-24-2007, 07:27 PM
Seeing as they can Remand their Brainfreeze in response to your Stifle would it be better to use Trickbind(split second) over Stifle either in the board or in the maindeck along with Armageddon

xsockmonkeyx
02-24-2007, 09:29 PM
Stifle kills their fetches. If you plan on Stifling Brainfreeze then you plan on losing.

Volt
02-24-2007, 10:13 PM
Stifle is not amazing against Solidarity. None of us ever said it was. It's better than, say, Winged Sliver in that matchup, but "Stifle your Brainfreeze" is rarely answered with "good game." Like Monkey said, its primary function is to kill fetches. Now, a wary Solidarity player will be mindful of that and do their best not to blunder into a Stifle, but sometimes it can't be helped.

Where Stifle really shines is against Iggy, TES, and Goblins. It's also randomly useful in a lot of other matchups. But we've been down this road a zillion times. Play it, don't play it, whatever.

Jiaozy
02-25-2007, 12:23 PM
Seeing as they can Remand their Brainfreeze in response to your Stifle would it be better to use Trickbind(split second) over Stifle either in the board or in the maindeck along with Armageddon
They can still Remand the Brainfreeze because you can't play spells when Trickbind is on the stack, but after it resolves and it counters the storm trigger, you can Remand the Brainfreeze.

Pinder
02-25-2007, 02:25 PM
So, now that the list is largely agreed upon, I want to talk about the sideboard. Not necessarily what should go in it, but strategies on sideboarding. We all know what cards we want against certain decks. The problem I've been running into lately is coming up with what to side out. Basically I'm trying to identify which cards are least useful against a particular deck. I'm by no means an expert here, at it would be great to hear everyone's opinions. To get us started:

Solidarity
The easiest matchup to side for, IMO. Out goes StP for Meddling Mage. Also, you would probably ditch Winged before Crystalline (Crystalline is a 2/2) for Stifle or whatnot.

Goblins
Do we sideboard against Goblins?

Thresh
You can board out Swords for Mage, but only if you plan on naming Swords with Mage (or anticipate that they will).

Deadguy/other black with hando/lando
In game 2, you want to board in Harmonics. Trust me. If you're anywhere near a tourney they're going to have EP in the board for Gobs. I'm not sure what to side out, though. My first thought is to straight up switch Winged for Harmonic, as on the ground your creatures generally eat theirs alive, and you have StP to keep Hyppies and such from hitting you overhead.

Faerie Stompy
You want Harmonics (and possibly EE if you have it in the board). I really don't know what to side out. You want flying, and all of your countermagic.

Angel Stompy
Same general principle as FS. You want everything you have, and your board cards.

Red Death
I honestly haven't tested this matchup. Thoughts?

IGGy Pop
Harmonics switch with Swords if they run Leyline, StP stays in against Xantid Swarm if they don't. You also want Stifle in there somewhere, perhaps over Daze or Winged?

Anyway, I'd like to hear your ideas.

Volt
02-25-2007, 03:06 PM
vs. Faerie Stompy
-3 Counterspell
+3 Harmonic Sliver

vs. Angel Stompy
-4 Plated Sliver
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Counterspell
-1 Winged Sliver
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Harmonic Sliver

vs. Deadguy
-3 Counterspell
+3 Harmonic Sliver

vs. Iggy Pop
depends on the build. Generally, you want to side out Winged, Crystalline, and maybe Swords, to bring in Meddling Mage, Stifle, and Crypt.

vs. Thresh
You want to side in Meddling Mages and any graveyard hate you may have. You may also want to side in Stifles or Pithing Needles if you know/suspect Engineered Explosives. You can side out Counterspells, since Thresh doesn't really have any "must counter" bombs. Siding out Swords is risky, but possibly correct if your opponent is playing Meddling Mage. Siding out Dazes when going 2nd is also a possibility.

vs. Goblins
As we know, Stifles are great here. Also, Gobbo will side in Chalices or Pyrostatic Pillar, and you need to be able to deal with them.
-3 Counterspell
-3 Serum Visions
+3 Harmonic Sliver
+3 Stifle

Pinder
02-26-2007, 01:36 AM
vs. Faerie Stompy
-3 Counterspell
+3 Harmonic Sliver


Why Counterspell? Is it generally too slow against FS? Another consideration would be Serum Visions, as you will likely be staring down a Chalice @ 1 in G2.




vs. Angel Stompy
-4 Plated Sliver
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Counterspell
-1 Winged Sliver
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Harmonic Sliver


I'm wary of siding out Plated, but this seems pretty solid.



vs. Deadguy
-3 Counterspell
+3 Harmonic Sliver


This seems right, as they will likely be bringing in EP. Another board option (if you see a lot of Deadguy variants) is Divert. It's so great against Hando and Lando. It's also great against other counterspells, but not useful against a whole lot else. Perhaps Disrupt is also worth considering.



vs. Iggy Pop
depends on the build. Generally, you want to side out Winged, Crystalline, and maybe Swords, to bring in Meddling Mage, Stifle, and Crypt.


I forgot about Meddling Mage in my earlier post. Of course you want to side those in, too. Swords should stay in if they have Xantid, though.



vs. Thresh
You want to side in Meddling Mages and any graveyard hate you may have. You may also want to side in Stifles or Pithing Needles if you know/suspect Engineered Explosives. You can side out Counterspells, since Thresh doesn't really have any "must counter" bombs. Siding out Swords is risky, but possibly correct if your opponent is playing Meddling Mage. Siding out Dazes when going 2nd is also a possibility.


I'd side in Needles before Stifle against EE, because it doesn't force you to hold mana open and, as far as I know, Thresh doesn't pack a lot of artifact hate either MD or boarded (I could be wrong, but last I checked they didn't). I think siding out Swords is a right move, as it's probably the first thing I'm going to name with my Mage (to protect my other Mages if nothing else). And quite possibly the first thing they name with theirs. Plus, a Mage on swords is Crystalline 5-8. This is great. I'm not sure about siding out counterspells, as I often use them more to make sure my spells resolve, but that would open up Mage naming Counterspell, which I admit could be pretty sexy.

edit: Nevermind, of course they have artifact/enchantment hate in the board. In that case it's really a toss up between Stifle and Needle.




vs. Goblins
As we know, Stifles are great here. Also, Gobbo will side in Chalices or Pyrostatic Pillar, and you need to be able to deal with them.
-3 Counterspell
-3 Serum Visions
+3 Harmonic Sliver
+3 Stifle

I never thought about Chalice or Pillar from Gobs. Good catch. 3 Harmonics seems a little high, but it might be necessary.

Kronicler
02-26-2007, 02:07 AM
Why Counterspell? Is it generally too slow against FS? Another consideration would be Serum Visions, as you will likely be staring down a Chalice @ 1 in G2.

I good FS player will drop a chalice at 2 rather than a chalice at one because it completely kills your deck. If you can get down a half decent army before that happens then you are fine, but otherwise you are screwed. Harmonic Sliver can remedy this, but as 2 of your three pieces of counter magic will no longer be viable (daze and c-spell both cost 2) it will likely be hard to resolve. I definately think siding out counterspell is the right move, as you want to be playing threats down each turn rather than leaving mana open to counter their chalice. Make sure that you don't just sit there waiting to counter their chalice as they will see this and comit threats to the board and just win. Many people don't remember that even though FS can play like a control deck, it can be rediculously explosive too. Furthermore, I think I might keep serum visions in actually, as you will need your cantrips to dig for threats / counter magic before chalice and harmonic / counter magic if chalice resolves.

If any part of this post was nonsensical, I appologize. I'm rediculously tired and I'm about to go to bed. I'll edit it tomorrow.

Kronicler

Aggro_zombies
02-26-2007, 04:52 AM
I feel like 3x stifle would help more vs solidarity than 2x geddon. While you can obviously use it to stifle the storm on brainfreeze, you can also stifle an early fetch which, on occasion, will straight up win you the game (kept a 1 land hand with 2 brainstorms, reset, high tide, and meditate, eh? G fkn G).

Kronicler
What retarded Solidarity player would keep a hand like this against anything that wins at a rate that can be measured in units smaller than aeons? Solidarity wants to keep at least a two land hand because it wants to use its cantrips when it goes off, not so much as setup. A deck like Spring Tide might keep a hand like this if you switched Reset with Serum Visions, just because Spring Tide has superior draw power to Solidarity and therefore doesn't mind blowing draw spells on setup. This hand might be tempting, but they kinda know you can beat them down really hard and you have counter backup, so they wouldn't keep a hand like this in games two or three (and in game one keeping that hand isn't smart because if you're playing a fast deck and they don't draw lands, this hand just bit them in the ass). I'd rather play Armageddon against Solidarity because Stifling the storm trigger does jack shit against them unless they're incompetent (or Scott, who hadn't played the deck before...poor Scott got his ass beat all day). Armageddon with counter backup forces them to start developing over again, which they won't want to do in the face of a hungry army of Slivers.

Xero
02-26-2007, 04:35 PM
I know this has no place in the deck, but it's still kind of cool. Rumored Future Sight "Hive Leader:"

Sliver Legion WUBRG
Legendary Creature - Sliver
Each Sliver gets +1/+1 for each other Sliver in play.
7/7

Maybe as a one of in a 5 color build. :cool:

Kronicler
02-26-2007, 04:49 PM
Coat of Arms on legs? lawl.

Pinder
02-26-2007, 11:26 PM
Now, if it costed 1GU for a 2/2 that gave all Slivers +2/+2, then we'd have something.

Kronicler
02-27-2007, 12:46 AM
Then we would have a 4/4 for 3 mana, an amazing creature and a completely broken addition to this deck. lol.... a sliver ringleader would be less broken.

Kronicler

Pinder
02-27-2007, 01:07 AM
Then we would have a 4/4 for 3 mana, an amazing creature and a completely broken addition to this deck. lol.... a sliver ringleader would be less broken.

Kronicler

Then maybe they'll finally give us a Sliver Ringleader.

But yeah, it would be a 3 mana Might Sliver. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

RoddyVR
02-27-2007, 11:33 AM
could someone point me to what your actual list is right now (with sideboard preferably)

the list on the first post doesnt seem to match what you are discussing boarding in or out at this point, so i think that list is out of date.

also, if someone knows where i could find the discussion on why gemhide wasnt included in the deck, that would help me quite a bit.

and since you all are prety used to the whole slivers thing, i'd love to hear your opinions on darkheart sliver (i know you dont have it cause you dont want to add black to manabase). my slivers are 5 color, so i was just curious what you thought of darkheart as a sliver (ie where would you rank in in terms of best/worst, and how many would you try to use if you already had green and black in your sliver deck)

PS, blame Klaan for my coming here from MOTL.

Pinder
02-27-2007, 12:53 PM
Actually the list on the first page is pretty standard stuff. Volt runs 4x Daze and 3x Counterspell and I run 4x Counterspell and 3x Daze, but all in all that's the most current build. As far as sideboard, that's largely metagame dependent, but we've conlcuded that it should at least include Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle, and Harmonic Sliver.

As far as Darkheart goes, if he's in your colors, run him. In essence he's a 2 mana Ravenous Baloth (the one less lifegain is negligible), since as long as he's in play you can sac your other slivers. And he dodges Needle like a pr0. I think that Darkheart is tied with Necrotic for 2nd best Sliver out of PC (Sinew is first, obviously).

Jankwolf
02-27-2007, 07:45 PM
I really dont like the black run in slivers...
Green is better, like an artichoke.

Xero
02-27-2007, 10:38 PM
Artichokes can be black: http://food.oregonstate.edu/images/fruitveg/artichoke/artichoke3.jpg


Wasted.

Pinder
02-28-2007, 01:16 AM
From a PM convo I had a while back:



Well you know, Black Lotus was originally concepted as 'Black Artichoke', but Richard Garfield felt that he couldn't make a card that could do the mighty food justice without warping the entire game. So the abilty was cut from 'T, Sac: Add 3 mana of any color to your mana pool, then draw 3 cards. Then each opponent discards his or her hand, and loses 10 life.' to the 'T,Sac: Add 3 mana of any color to your mana pool.' that we know today. Unfortunately, this was done late into development after the art for Black Artichoke had been commissioned, so they had to choose something that looked similar for the new card. They eventually settled on a Lotus, because it looked like a slightly less cool Artichoke. After a bit of tweaking to turn the Artichoke into a Lotus, the final (if a tad watered down) product was finished.


True story.

Rasen
03-01-2007, 09:31 AM
From a PM convo I had a while back:

True story.

That you had a PM conversation?

Muradin
03-01-2007, 03:11 PM
A friend of mine is thinking about building Slivers as his first real Legacy deck.
So now I doubt that a sliver deck would be doing well in our meta.
Would you be so nice and tell me(not real percentage numbers, only if rather favorable/unfavorable/good/bad) what the matchups of the deck against the following ones are like:

Goblins
4 Color loam control(like the one that won the PT Kobe side event)
RGB Survival Advantage
Landstill
Burn
Spring Tide/Iggy Pop
This ones are the most common decks in our local metagame.

Furthermore: What do you think of living wish in this deck?

Another question I got: Did anyone ever do well with this deck at a bigger legacy event?

Maverick676
03-01-2007, 06:29 PM
Goblins: Favorable, this is one of the reasons to play the deck.

Survival Variants: Favorable, Needle slows them down long enough for your slivers to wreck them.

Landstill: About Even, 1st game can be tough, its all about crystalline sliver and tempo, but 2nd game you bring needles and meddling mage.

Burn: Unfavorable, It's difficult to race them effectively without something like chill. They usually win by one turn.

Iggypop: Preboard Slightly Unfavored especially if they have maindeck defense grid. Postboart Favored, In comes mage and harmonic (if they have defense grid or leyline)

Spring Tide : Favored I have played this matchup a handful of times and never lost.

No one has played this at a major legacy event yet, but I will be taking it to GP columbus.

Pinder
03-02-2007, 04:32 PM
Survival Variants: Favorable, Needle slows them down long enough for your slivers to wreck them.


I question this, personally. I haven't really done enough testing against Survival variants to be sure, but it seems like they're depending less and less on Survival. I doubt that a single Needle naming Survival will cause them to pack up and go home. Plus, we don't run Needle maindeck, so G1 might still be tough (or easy, as I said I haven't really tested the matchup).



Burn: Unfavorable, It's difficult to race them effectively without something like chill. They usually win by one turn.


Or you do. I'd say the Burn matchup is about 50/50 (maybe 60/40 in their favor). It's all a race. If you can get an early Crystalline and keep the pressure on, you can pull out a win. This is a bit harder without Crystalline, of course. SB Chills if you're worried. Or Worship. Or Warmth.

Fishbone
03-05-2007, 01:05 PM
What do you think about this idea?

Lands:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Mishra's Factory

Creatures:
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystallline Sliver


Spells:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counter Spell
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Ęther Vial

The addition to the deck are the standstills and the vials. They garantue some cardadvantage to make the deck stronger in the lategame and vs non aggro-matchups.

Pinder
03-05-2007, 05:36 PM
1) 16 Creatures doesn't really seem like enough to truly abuse Vial. There's been discussion of this in the past, but the basic jist is that if you want to run Aether Vial, you probably need between 20-30 Slivers in the deck. 16 just isn't enough.

2) I realize that Aether Vial is probably there to get creatures in under Standstill, but depending entirely on it for that seems a little weak. What if it gets Needled? And Standstill probably doesn't belong in this deck anyway, as you generally want to lay down as many beaters per turn as you can, and Standstill will cause you to hold back beaters so you don't break it. You can only Vial in so many. If you're looking for a source of card advantage, try Fact or Fiction. That card is some good. And EOT FoF can often be gamebreaking.

Maverick676
03-05-2007, 06:48 PM
I swear if I have to endure one more debate about whether vial should be included in this deck I will start smoting people with my fiery hammer of doom.

Pinder
03-05-2007, 09:16 PM
I swear if I have to endure one more debate about whether vial should be included in this deck I will start smoting people with my fiery hammer of doom.

Smiting. You'll start smiting people :rolleyes:.

Kronicler
03-05-2007, 11:00 PM
Hey guys, I just wanted to say that I recently finished building Counterslivers and I gotta say it is an absolute blast to play. Between myself and my group of friends we have 7 legacy decks, but only TES comes close to being as fun to play as this deck. One thing I'm not sure about is the SB though. Right now my SB is as follows:

3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

So far this seems to take care of everything... but I'm not exactly sure how useful the needles are. Sure, they are amazing against gobos and survival, but what else? Against combo they sure don't do anything (not that we need any more help against combo after boarding lawl), against thresh they don't do anything... unless i'm really forgetting something, and I might be because we dont see much thresh around here. If someone could just refresh my memory about how useful needle is, I would appreciate it. So... yeah... just awesome job on making an awesome deck. I will be watchin' this thread for many months to come...

Kronicler

P.S. Pinder.... I see quotes from you in sigs all over the source. You might be the funniest person here, hehe. Anyway, amazing quote from you in my sig. And yes, I do Dilu all the time.

Pinder
03-06-2007, 12:52 AM
So far this seems to take care of everything... but I'm not exactly sure how useful the needles are. Sure, they are amazing against gobos and survival, but what else? Against combo they sure don't do anything (not that we need any more help against combo after boarding lawl), against thresh they don't do anything... unless i'm really forgetting something, and I might be because we dont see much thresh around here. If someone could just refresh my memory about how useful needle is, I would appreciate it.


Needle comes in handy against Survival builds, and it's HOUSE against Deed. It's great when they search up a way to deal with it (while you're beating face), only to get it Stifled because you've had 3-4 turns to find one (and then to continue to beat face). It's also great vs. Wasteland from Gobs, allowing you to fetch duals safely. It's nice against EE from Thresh as well. All around it's pretty useful. If you don't find a ton of uses for it though, go ahead and run something else. The sideboard is them ost flexible part of this deck.



P.S. Pinder.... I see quotes from you in sigs all over the source. You might be the funniest person here, hehe. Anyway, amazing quote from you in my sig. And yes, I do Dilu all the time.

I'm sure certian members of the EPIC Syndicate would disagree (Diablos is pretty heelarious), but thank you nonetheless.

BeeblesofLife
03-08-2007, 10:25 PM
Ok, I havent posted here in a while...So to start a fresh arguement...To those who think vile should be included...I have just one question. Is your head up your ass for the warmth? This deck is AGGRO CONTROL, I know it may be confuseing because it has the word AGGRO in it. You shouldn't let that deter you from the control aspect. I will raise my pimp against anyone who brings this up again. This portion of the convo. ends NOW.

Second, I really think you guys should put Plague SLiver in the deck...just some extra fat would be nice...Mav, I hope to god you know i'm joking.

Volt
03-08-2007, 10:38 PM
I weep for this thread. It used to be interesting. No longer.

Kronicler
03-09-2007, 12:06 AM
Volt, you make a good point, this thread has slowed down a lot. I dunno though, I think that is, more than anything, a sign that the maindeck is pretty much perfect. I've been playing this deck a lot over the past 2 weeks and I don't think I would change a thing. It's a blast to play, it's very consistent, and it doesn't have many bad matchups. What more is there to discuss :cool: .

Kronicler

Solpugid
03-09-2007, 12:46 AM
Don't be discouraged by the thread slowing. If you feel you have a good list, back that opinion up with results: take the deck to more tournaments and see how you do. At the very least that will help you to better determine good and bad match-ups, how to board more effectively, or even enlighten you to some new "tech".

I'm seriously contemplating making this deck myself (I'm just 3 crystalline slivers and 4 muscle slivers short of having all the cards), but I seriously worry about board control. Unlike other fish decks (yeah, I'm calling this a version of fish...so sue me) you need a good number of creatures out to really pose a threat. That, as you know, opens you up to deed, explosives, and wrath like no other. Since the deck has no true card advantage that kind of sweeper will mean game.

So, to spark some discussion, even if only a bit:

1. Is there a way (or a reason) to fit some form of card advantage in here?
2. How often do you guys come across board control decks? How do you do against them?
3. Have you tested a UWR version at all? (You lose muscle, gain cautery...eh)
4. How many winged do you run? If this is anything like UG madness from back in the day, mass flying just wins games against aggro decks.
5. How many tournaments has this deck actually seen play in? What finishes did you guys get?
6. What sliver do you think has the coolest artwork? I'd vote for acidic, but seeing as you don't run him...muscle.

Kronicler
03-09-2007, 01:17 AM
Don't be discouraged by the thread slowing. If you feel you have a good list, back that opinion up with results: take the deck to more tournaments and see how you do. At the very least that will help you to better determine good and bad match-ups, how to board more effectively, or even enlighten you to some new "tech".

I'm seriously contemplating making this deck myself (I'm just 3 crystalline slivers and 4 muscle slivers short of having all the cards), but I seriously worry about board control. Unlike other fish decks (yeah, I'm calling this a version of fish...so sue me) you need a good number of creatures out to really pose a threat. That, as you know, opens you up to deed, explosives, and wrath like no other. Since the deck has no true card advantage that kind of sweeper will mean game.

So, to spark some discussion, even if only a bit:

1. Is there a way (or a reason) to fit some form of card advantage in here?
2. How often do you guys come across board control decks? How do you do against them?
3. Have you tested a UWR version at all? (You lose muscle, gain cautery...eh)
4. How many winged do you run? If this is anything like UG madness from back in the day, mass flying just wins games against aggro decks.
5. How many tournaments has this deck actually seen play in? What finishes did you guys get?
6. What sliver do you think has the coolest artwork? I'd vote for acidic, but seeing as you don't run him...muscle.

Sweet! Action in this thread! Now to respond:

1. I've contemplated putting a set of AKs in the deck. Seems a bit slow though, especially without intuition. Unfortunately there is no Sliver Ringleader (yet... future sight? lol, I can wish, can't I?) so actual card advantage is hard to come by, though we all know how amazing the virtual card advantage from crystalline is.

2. First off I disagree that you need 'a good number" of creatures on the board to win. Muscle/Sinew + Crystalline have won me many a game against board control decks. Not only is this actually a decent clock, but it means that any sweeper won't give them nearly as much card advantage as it normally would. Then you can just sit and build up counters / creatures in hand to either counter a sweeper or simply just lay down the beats the turn after. In terms of proactively dealing with deed / EE (the 2 most common and most devastating board sweepers) we could always take a page out of thresh and run 2-3 maindeck needles, maybe replacing counterspell, or a daze and a counterspell. This of course would hurt our solidarity / fast combo matchups, but trade offs are gona have to be made.

3. I will never play this deck without 8 muscles slivers, and we simply cannot play aggro as well as gobos so cutting blue is completely out of the question too. So I don't see red joining the deck anytime soon... though cautery isn't bad at all.

4. 3 Winged, no question. Not only is it never completely dead (as it's a sliver and can pitch to force) but Winged is almost a win condition against aggro. A lot of times this deck can just sit with 4ish huge, untargetable guys on the board and completely stall the game, countering anything relevant. Then it will drop winged and swing for 20 in 1 turn. This is definately 1 of the 2 ways I beat gobos, the other being a crystalline and a sinew/muscle along with 3-4 free counterspells preventing gobos from doing anything at all. That matchup is actually very interesting, as the games can be completely different depending on which strat you decide to take.

5. No big legacy tourneys in North Cali ftl. I think I'm gona host a small tourney in 2 weeks in which I will most definately play slivers, so I'll let you guys know how I do. I'm not sure many people have taken this deck to large tourneys, though I'm not really sure why not. Seems to be a slightly more agressive threshold that doesn't give a crap bout the GY and beats gobos where is the downside? Some of you people on the eastcoast need to go T8 with this monster.

6. Hrmmmm, Darkheart is pretty frickin sweet. So is Sedge IMO. They both just happen to be the 2nd and 3rd best slivers from the TS block, behind the beast that is Sinew.

I <3 discussion on this thread, let's keep it comin!

Kronicler

Maverick676
03-09-2007, 01:31 AM
1. We've tried everything from predict to fact or fiction. Card Advantage generally isn't needed agains't many decks because the slivers themselves make a large portion of your opponents creatures and almost all removal irrelevant. It generates virtual card advantage similar to meddling mage or chalice.

2. Board control decks are very bad matchups for us generally. Maindecked we have to get the turn 4-5 win and use countermagic to keep the board sweepers off the table. (this generally is difficult because decks tend to play threats/disruption in addition to boardsweep). Decks like truffle shuffle just own us. The match is winnable, but very favorable for them. Even postboard Needle and Mage only go so far.

3. To my knowledge no one has tested the UWR version, Once sinew came out we all realized how ridiculous it is to have 8 muscle slivers and decided to stick with the UWG build. Although there are some very good slivers in other colors (Hibernation, Cautery, Acidic) it is just not worth the loss of having 8 muscle slivers.

4. Most builds run three winged, winged is alot like wonder in madness except that he often hits the board as a 3/4 untargetable flyer for 2. But yes this is a key card in many aggro matchups.

5. No one has taken it to a large tournament yet, most of us working on it live on the west coast where this are very few large scale legacy tournaments. However Pinder, Volt, and I will be playing slivers at GP Columbus.

6. Coolest artwork I think has to be Darkheart Sliver, it has a very beautiful color scheme in my opinion. Plus the visible detail on the sliver is just amazing.

Pinder
03-09-2007, 01:31 AM
1. Is there a way (or a reason) to fit some form of card advantage in here?

We've tried, and we can't really seem to get it to work well. If you find a way, please tell us.



2. How often do you guys come across board control decks? How do you do against them?

Decks packing heavy board control are just less than stellar matchups for us. We just have to accept that. As far as what we do against them, if they're spells (Wrath, Cataclysm, etc.), we counter them. In the case of Deed and Engineered Explosives, they can always be answered via Needle, or everyone's favorite card, Stifle. But sometimes you can't counter/answer them, and that's hard. You can try and play around them, but it is more difficult because you have to commit more to the board to really be effective.



3. Have you tested a UWR version at all? (You lose muscle, gain cautery...eh)

Not really. We like our 8 Muscles. Of course, it wouldn't be hard to try a different splash, as Muscle Sliver is the only green spell in the deck, but you'd be hard pressed to find a red sliver that does its job as well as Muscle does. If you want to try a different splash, feel free to do so, and let us know how it goes.



4. How many winged do you run? If this is anything like UG madness from back in the day, mass flying just wins games against aggro decks.

We currently run 3. This is a good number, because you can consistently see one, and any extras can be conveniently pitched to Force (or just played if you need more fat). And you're right. There are games that are just a groundpouneder standstill till Winged comes down and you beat for 7-10 a turn. The game ends quickly after that.



5. How many tournaments has this deck actually seen play in? What finishes did you guys get?

Unfortunately, not very many.There isn't a large Legacy presence where we are, and the only chance I have to test really is against the randomness that permeates the Friday night tourney I help run. This is further exacerbated by the fact that I work Saturdays, so whenever there is a larger Legacy event I can't attend. Oh well. I'm currently in the Winter SCG Online Tourney with the deck, though, and I'll let you know how that goes.

As far as the Friday night tourney goes, in 4 rounds I haven't ever gone less than 3-1 with it. This is...less than conclusive, however.



6. What sliver do you think has the coolest artwork? I'd vote for acidic, but seeing as you don't run him...muscle.

Hands down Dearkheart Sliver. I just love the artwork on that one. And it has the distinction of appearing on a pretty good (if out of our colors) sliver. I think Volt is fond of Necrotic.

As for one we run, I'm partial to Crystalline. And Plated looks pretty cool too.

edit: wow, three people answered the questions all at once. And we all like Darkheart. Sweet.

Volt
03-09-2007, 01:37 AM
Bless you people for making the thread interesting again. I was going to say a bunch of the same stuff that Kronickler, Mav, and Pinder just said, but now I don't have to. :cool:

Solpugid
03-09-2007, 10:14 AM
As somewhat of a reply to my own questions...

I contemplated the UWR splash, and realized how subpar it would be. I LOVE cautery (stemming from my love f goblin legionnaire), but red offers little else. I thought of pyroclasm for a bit...until I realized I was a moron. So, UWG it is.

I also thought about the possibility of card advantage and here's the ideas I came up with:

Accumulated knowledge: thresh runs twice as many cantrips and still can't use it well...so no.

Predict: Not enough cantrips to abuse it.

Fact or fiction: A lot of mana, but I did see worship run in this deck for a while; was worship too expensive too keep, or too narrow?

Mnemonic sliver: Where's the room? And the 2-mana sac. cost is a little high.

Dormant sliver: He'd be good if you could somehow get rid of him later, but you don't have enough ways to do that. Plus, he costs 4.

Ok, so I'm as stumped as you guys are. Ah well, crystalline is enough for me. Oh, and about the artwork, I forgot about darkheart. I think I'd go with him as well, though it kinda creeped me out that he has compund eyes when other slivers don't have eyes at all.

Volt
03-09-2007, 02:31 PM
I also thought about the possibility of card advantage and here's the ideas I came up with:

Accumulated knowledge: thresh runs twice as many cantrips and still can't use it well...so no.

Predict: Not enough cantrips to abuse it.

Fact or fiction: A lot of mana, but I did see worship run in this deck for a while; was worship too expensive too keep, or too narrow?

Mnemonic sliver: Where's the room? And the 2-mana sac. cost is a little high.

Dormant sliver: He'd be good if you could somehow get rid of him later, but you don't have enough ways to do that. Plus, he costs 4.

Ok, so I'm as stumped as you guys are. Ah well, crystalline is enough for me.

Yeah, this is one of those well-covered topics. There just aren't any draw spells good enough to make the cut. If only Synapse Sliver (http://magiccards.info/le/en/53.html) cost 4 instead of 5. This deck would be buh-roken.

Pinder
03-09-2007, 03:12 PM
Yeah, this is one of those well-covered topics. There just aren't any draw spells good enough to make the cut. If only Synapse Sliver (http://magiccards.info/le/en/53.html) cost 4 instead of 5. This deck would be buh-roken.

Even at 4, the cost would be a tad prohobtive. If they made it a 1/1 for 2U with that ability, it would be the tits.

But alas, they didn't and dreaming isn't getting us anywhere. We'll just have to settle for virtual card advantage until they give us a ringleader (Future Sight? Maybe?).

georgjorge
03-11-2007, 03:59 PM
First off I disagree that you need 'a good number" of creatures on the board to win. Muscle/Sinew + Crystalline have won me many a game against board control decks. Not only is this actually a decent clock, but it means that any sweeper won't give them nearly as much card advantage as it normally would. Then you can just sit and build up counters / creatures in hand to either counter a sweeper or simply just lay down the beats the turn after. In terms of proactively dealing with deed / EE (the 2 most common and most devastating board sweepers) we could always take a page out of thresh and run 2-3 maindeck needles, maybe replacing counterspell, or a daze and a counterspell. This of course would hurt our solidarity / fast combo matchups, but trade offs are gona have to be made.

If you are only concerned about Deed and Explosives, Needle could be fine (although I would prefer going up to four Stifles before I put Needles in the SB). However, if you are also concerned about Wrath or Damnation or Earthquake or Clasm, may I suggest Caller of the Claw ? I don't know the deck well enough to judge if it can consistently reach three mana on turn three, but it seems pretty good here, as against most sweepers you WILL be able to keep three mana open, and it can even be good in matchups against heavy creature decks, replacing your killed Slivers with (although un-Sliver-like) 2/2s.

Maverick676
03-11-2007, 09:15 PM
If you are only concerned about Deed and Explosives, Needle could be fine (although I would prefer going up to four Stifles before I put Needles in the SB). However, if you are also concerned about Wrath or Damnation or Earthquake or Clasm, may I suggest Caller of the Claw ? I don't know the deck well enough to judge if it can consistently reach three mana on turn three, but it seems pretty good here, as against most sweepers you WILL be able to keep three mana open, and it can even be good in matchups against heavy creature decks, replacing your killed Slivers with (although un-Sliver-like) 2/2s.

Well we already run needle and stifle but thanks for the tip.

If you can keep 3 mana open for caller of the claw, then why not just play a counterspell? or second sunrise. Either is a better option. Against creature heavy decks there is no need for a crappy elf that replaces good creatures with grizzly bears.

In short you're retarded and should go kill yourself for the betterment of mankind.

Warned for flames. Cut that shit out. - Zilla

Volt
03-11-2007, 09:26 PM
In short you're retarded and should go kill yourself for the betterment of mankind.

Now that's what I call a measured, appropriate response. Did somebody burn your toast this morning, Mav?

Pinder
03-12-2007, 12:33 AM
I might have overreacted a tiny bit. I am just so sick of stupid suggestions by people who have obviously not read they thread, or even the primer on the first page.


Well, they haven't read the primer on the first page because there isn't a primer on the first page right now. Because of all the rapid changes we were making to the deck, it was hard to update an entire primer. So I took it off (don't worry, I saved it) and just posted the most updated decklists.

And the thread is 46 fucking pages long. Of course people aren't going to read it all, especially when roughly half of it is people being stupid or you flaming people for being stupid.

Now that we've largely settled on a list, perhaps we should start writing one again.

sammiel
03-12-2007, 01:14 AM
Well, they haven't read the primer on the first page because there isn't a primer on the first page right now. Because of all the rapid changes we were making to the deck, it was hard to update an entire primer. So I took it off (don't worry, I saved it) and just posted the most updated decklists.

And the thread is 46 fucking pages long. Of course people aren't going to read it all, especially when roughly half of it is people being stupid or you flaming people for being stupid.

Now that we've largely settled on a list, perhaps we should start writing one again.

I think what the deck is missing right now is results. I believe it's a solid and refined list with the capability of earning its place in the legacy metagame, now you need to go out and prove it.

Tosh
03-12-2007, 01:28 AM
I think what the deck is missing right now is results. I believe it's a solid and refined list with the capability of earning its place in the legacy metagame, now you need to go out and prove it.
#1: Mav and Pinder are taking it to GP Columbus
#2: Good thing there are lots of creditable (read: non-local) Legacy Tournaments on the West Coast. The only people that are playing MH right now live on the West Coast...

Pinder
03-12-2007, 01:42 AM
#1: Mav and Pinder are taking it to GP Columbus


So is Volt.

georgjorge
03-12-2007, 03:55 AM
Second Sunrise is definitely NOT better as it allows your opponent to get his Deed / Explosives back as well. A simple counterspell is probably better for preventing mass destruction (unless Deed / Explosives is already on the table), but might be worse in creature combat (replacing your Slivers with 2/2s is not so good, but still better than having no replacement at all but a Counterspell in hand).

Anyway, telling people you don't know anything about to commit suicide on an internet forum is a sure sign for being a bit of an asshole, so I'm out of here.

kicks_422
03-12-2007, 11:42 PM
A simple counterspell is probably better for preventing mass destruction (unless Deed / Explosives is already on the table)

Funny, I just finished a game where Stifling an EE activation won me the game... :cool:

I think this deck has what it takes to win a huge event such as GP Colombus. Godd luck to everyone taking it there... :tongue:

Maverick676
03-13-2007, 12:32 AM
No one is debating the usefullness of stifle.

All I was saying is that Counterspell > Caller of the Claw.

Patoon
03-13-2007, 10:41 PM
I am taking the list to a smallish tournament in Sydney, Australia this weekend i am still undecided upon daze vs. stifle, it will be a metagame decision probably made while i write the list down on the day.

So i will let you all know how things go.

Pinder
03-14-2007, 12:43 AM
Awesome. Let us know how it goes.

Patoon
03-15-2007, 07:11 AM
So just so you guys know what i am taking here is the list that i am going to run. Some things are the way they are cos i dont quite own all the cards, but it is pretty much how i would have it anyway.

Creatures
4 x Crystalline Sliver
4 x Muscle Sliver
4 x Sinew Sliver
4 x Plated Sliver
3 x Winged Sliver

Spells
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Serum Visions
3 x Daze
4 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
4 x Swords to Plowshares

Land
3 x Tundra
3 x Tropical Island
4 x Flooded Strand
2 x Windswept Heath
2 x Polluted Delta
2 x Island
1 x Plains
1 x Forest

Sideboard
3 x Harmonic Sliver
1 x Naturalize
2 x Talon Sliver
2 x Worship
3 x Tomod's Crypt
4 x Meddling Mage

I have been very happy with this list through testing, as we all know it pretty much pwns anything aggro, and stands a good chance against combo, esp game two. The meta game i expect is a quite varied one. The decks that regularly win legacy in Sydney are 1. Goblins, 2. Threshold (Lol no suprizes there) But the field is what you have to worry about, cos aside from the 5 ppl who know and are good at legacy, there are a lot of ppl who will bring random and someone randomly strong stuff.

So anyway give me your comments / feedback, and any last pointers you might have lying around, and come Saturday we can see if all the hardwork has paid off at least just a little bit.

xsockmonkeyx
03-15-2007, 08:06 AM
So anyway give me your comments / feedback, and any last pointers you might have lying around, and come Saturday we can see if all the hardwork has paid off at least just a little bit.

Last minute tweak: -1 Counterspell, -1 Serum Visions +2 Stifle. You might want to try it out first to see if it suits you. I also might try 2 in the board if you expect a field full of goblins and combo. The board looks pretty decent. The 1x Naturalize kind of stands out though. What is your reason for playing it instead of another Harmonic Sliver?

Volt
03-15-2007, 11:29 AM
What SockMonkey said. Also: -1 Forest +1 Tundra. Basic Forest is just awful. Good luck, Patoon!

Pinder
03-15-2007, 02:24 PM
What SockMonkey said. Also: -1 Forest +1 Tundra. Basic Forest is just awful. Good luck, Patoon!

I'm assuming that's because he doesn't own a 4th Tundra. But instead of a basic forest, you could probably go the 2 Plains, 2 Island route and be safe. I don't really care about a basic forest either way, but for some reason Volt absolutely loathes it.

But the list you posted is only a few cards off from ours as it currently stands, so you should do well. If you can get them, though, 2 Stifle main and 1-2 board is how we've been running it recently (I just haven't updated the list in while).

Also, if you can't get Stifles, I would run 4x Daze and 3x Counterspell instead of the other way around. Daze is infinitely more useful in the early game, so you want as many as possible to see them as much as possible in the early game.

And Talons in the board vs. a field largely made up of Goblins? You're mean :tongue:.

Kirika
03-15-2007, 04:30 PM
Well this is the build i running now. Currently playing in the SCG games online Legacy tourney. I normally play fish but I figured I'd give this a shot. Lost to landstill round 1 and round 2 had a draw cause time zone difference and round 3 beat goblins. Been finding not liking not having card draw though.

I might be going to GP Columbus. If I do i probably will play Fish though. more experience with it and I feel better about having more draw power and better control and combo matches although slivers is absolutely awesome against Goblins.

Blue (20)
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
2 Winged Sliver

Gold (6)
4 Crystalline Sliver
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Harmonic Sliver

Green (3)
3 Muscle Sliver

White (14)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Worship

Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
3 Compost (suicide black/monoblack control)
2 Harmonic Sliver (anti enchantment/artifact)
2 Loaming Shaman (threshold, ichorid)
4 Meddling Mage (combo)
2 Serenity (affinity/enchantress)
2 Vendalken Shackles (creature heavy decks)

I been thinking is loaming Shaman that much better then Crypt board? Loaming Shaman has legs and is a 3/2 but it costs 2G so is easier to counter since since counterspell will be online by the time it comes out but Crypt can get needled or Stifled but Shaman can get stifled too. Crypt does cost 0 and you can just stick it out there first turn though

Been thinking Survival solves the no draw problem of Slivers although it is weak to needle and loses some cards to fit in survival and all.

Blue (18)
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
1 Wonder

Gold (5)
4 Crystalline Sliver

Green (10)
1 Gemhide Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Uktabi Orangutan

Red (1)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

White (11)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

No room for Daze unfortunately and this deck wants mana in play to use survival so no Daze.

Wonder instead of winged cause less likely that they crypt me then winged sliver goes farming.

Orangutan to kill artifacts instead of harmonic cause I don't want to kill off my own survival with it.

Only 3 STP cause between having huge slivers and stifle to stop goblin abilities something had to get cut somewhere.

Sideboard is probably almost the same but Kataki instead of Serenity cause blowing up my survival is bad and probably want to put in Genesis against mass removal sideboard.

Might actually play this build at GP Columbus if I can get adequate testing in. otherwise i'm going with Fish.

Caller of the Claw sounds like a cute Solution to mass removal I used that in my elf deck to combat mass removal. I think the Survival Engine might be a better solution though. You can just pull more slivers using squee survival and you can have genesis if you want it.

Patoon
03-15-2007, 05:25 PM
I dont expect any combo really, i dont know why but nobody really plays i here. (Well in legacy anyway) I dont think many people have a set of Resets :) But an appearance of black based combo could happen.

In terms of goblins there will be like a definite 5 goblins decks and they almost all will be in the top tables.

The reason for the 3 tundra is as Pinder said, i only own 3 in regards to the forest, i cant say that i have found it a problem. I think it helps guarantee the harmonics. No to mention the goblins matchup.

I will change the 3 Daze to 4 and drop the counterspells to 3, i was actually considering this myself.

I personally really dont like stifle that much, i dont want to open that can of fish so that is all i will say about it. (I might try and work some into the board)

Naturalize OUT Stifle IN :) Just need room for another...

xsockmonkeyx
03-15-2007, 09:02 PM
How important do you anticipate Worship to be? In my experience its only been useful against burn and other slow combo. You could probably get away with cutting them unless you expect direct damage; you pretty much own the board.


In terms of goblins there will be like a definite 5 goblins decks and they almost all will be in the top tables.

If this is the case I anticipate you will have a pretty good day at the office.

Patoon
03-15-2007, 09:04 PM
Burn is something i do expect, and i find worship randomly good aganst random stuff.

xsockmonkeyx
03-15-2007, 09:12 PM
Daze>Burn. Definitely go up to 4.

EDIT: also if you expect scrubby players, Daze>Scrub

Patoon
03-15-2007, 11:01 PM
Daze>Scrub

Actual LOL at work

it says it all really

Hanni
03-17-2007, 09:59 AM
So after much theorizing and a bit of playtesting, I decided that it's too difficult to fit in Survival for what it's worth. Before Sinew was printed, Survival was exactly what the deck needed IMO. Now that Sinew is printed, it just isn't as necessary. The matchups it mainly helped were randomness and board control, since it's not so good against Goblins because it's slower than just playing guys and the deck just doesn't need it vs them. The same applies to combo. The best matchup for it is Threshold, where their maindeck Needle's simply neuter the plan. Against board control it's pretty good but it's just too hard to squeeze in for that.

I'm still an avid supporter of the 4c build. You cannot count on seeing Crystalline Sliver everygame with 4 (or at least when you need it), even with cantrip. Hibernation Sliver gives you 2 additional resiliency guys. They are less effective than Crystalline... thus why 4 Crystalline 2 Hibernation. It's still increasing the consistency of the decks main engine components: resiliency and pump. Protection vs untargeted and mass removal is just a bonus, as well as the subpar stack damage tricks. Especially without Survival, I like them. Running 2 black spells as the only black spells (that also pitch to FoW) doesn't really seem like a big deal.

This is what I've decided on for now:

UWgb 4c Counter Slivers

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (21)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Hibernation Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

Spells (21)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
2 Harmonic Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
3 Stifle
4 Meddling Mage
3 Winter Orb

The maindeck is the exact same as I've been running. I think it's perfect. In the sideboard, I dropped the Hibernation Slivers for Winter Orb's. Instead of trying to battle board control with Hibernations, I think simply running anti board control cards is better. Armageddon is another option outside of Winter Orb but the fact that you have to ramp up to 4, drop it, and then restablish the manabase to begin casting guys kinda sucks, especially if you have no guys on the board in the first place, and the deck only runs 18 lands. With Winter Orb, it can be dropped early and you can play guys under it and the effect lasts until its removed. Unless it's Rifter, Harmonic shouldn't pose a problem with Orb... and against mass removal like Deed's, it still slows them down so that they can walk right into Daze or Stifle. I'm still in the air about whether or not the deck needs the 3rd Harmonic Sliver or not and I still need to test the Threshold matchup alot to see whether the Talon Slivers are really the right sideboard card for them (although I do like them alot vs any other midrange aggro like AS). The sideboard probably still needs tuned more, I think the way it is for now is fine. As I said, I think the maindeck is perfect.

xsockmonkeyx
03-17-2007, 07:32 PM
More than 4 Crystalline slivers is unnecessary. You make the argument that it acts like countermagic in that it negates ill effects to your slivers. However, sometimes the things you want to counter have nothing to do with your slivers.

Frankly, your build loses to storm combo game 1 because your counters are lacking in both number and versatility.

Nihil Credo
03-17-2007, 08:05 PM
More than 4 Crystalline slivers is unnecessary. You make the argument that it acts like countermagic in that it negates ill effects to your slivers. However, sometimes the things you want to counter have nothing to do with your slivers.

Frankly, your build loses to storm combo game 1 because your counters are lacking in both number and versatility.

To that end (but not exclusively that), I'm currently playing maindeck Meddling Mages. With 8 Muscles providing huge creatures, the aggro matchup is already favourable, and the Mages shore up the control/combo matchup. Mage naming Wrath or Deed is critical to fighting control decks. In those matchups, FoW's exclusive purpose is to protect Pikula.

// Lands
3 [PR] Tundra
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [PR] Savannah
3 [PR] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [TE] Winged Sliver
4 [LE] Plated Sliver
3 [TE] Muscle Sliver
4 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
4 [PR] Brainstorm
4 [PR] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [PS] Eladamri's Call

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [5E] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [US] Worship
SB: 2 [WL] Serenity

Hanni
03-17-2007, 08:06 PM
See, I think more than 4 Crystalline Slivers is actually important.

I don't make arguments that it acts like countermagic. I make arguments that it adds additional resiliency to my Slivers and is a 2cc 2/2 that gains Sliver bonuses and gives a nifty ability to the rest of them. I find 2: return Sliver to hand to be a really strong, versatile ability.

I realize countermagic isn't just used to protect my guys. What's wrong with the 4/3/2 split? Counterspell is really lacking in a deck stacked with so many 2 drops, even in your list of 19. Counterspell is good, I run it... but I think running too many is just going to lead to bad early draws. This deck isn't Threshold and doesn't have the ability to hold UU open as easily.

How does my build lose to storm combo turn 1 any differently than your build? Because I run 2 less Counterspells? I've found Counterspell to be pretty bad against storm based combo... you either choose between leaving mana open to cast it or put a clock into play. Against TES moreso than everything else, Counterspell isn't so good. I mean, it's still great vs combo, but severly lacking vs the other countermagic. 4 is simply too much. Against Solidarity, Counterspell might not be so bad since if they try to combo off on turn 4, you might be able to leave UU open. Regardless, I don't see how dropping 2 Counterspell for 2 Hibernation Sliver makes my combo matchup lose to storm combo where your build doesn't. This seems very very unrealistic... either they both lose, or they both win, or its relatively even for both. I'm really not following your logic on this one.

I think more importantly than storm combo, Counterspell is strong vs board control. Counterspell is argueably better than Hibernation Sliver vs board control, although Hibernation Sliver is pretty good vs them regardless. Considering I am attempting to take an anti-board control position with my sideboard (Winter Orb), and the fact that Hibernation is solid against board control, tend to pretty much balance whatever differences that occur.

However, instead of running 2 extra Counterspell, I'm getting 2 extra Slivers. 2 extra Slivers that give me virtual card advantage like Crystalline when I don't see Crystalline. They increase the consistency of my gameplan (Crystalline + Muscles). However, the ability is extremely versatile so it fills a couple of extra functions too.

The only questionable thing towards dropping 2 Counterspell for 2 Hibernation is manabase issues, not whether or not running 2 Cspell/2 Hibernation is worse than 4 Cspell. As I've tested thouroughly vs B/r and B/w Sui, Loam variants (with Wasteland), and Goblins... the manabase is fine.

Regardless, I just mainly wanted to post that I gave up trying to get a Survival list together that I liked for the reasons I mentioned. I hadn't put any feedback in for a while and figured I'd do so. I still support the 4c list and I will continue to believe it to be the perfect configuration for the MD. The sideboard is another monster... I don't think it's finished yet. Just figured I'd put my opinion out there on it.

Patoon
03-17-2007, 08:32 PM
So the results are in, and i will say now that i am sorry if i got anyones hopes up, but the turn up for the tournament was pitiful 8... I mean seriously Sydney you can do better than that, although on the plus it was a great field of decks which included 1 Thresh, 2 Goblins, 1 Solidarity, 1 Angel Stax, 1 Burn, 1 Some crazy infinite mana dragon combo thing, and me.

I came in 4th after the 3 rounds mainly because of a disappointing loss in the first round. Thresh came 1st, Stax 2nd, and Burn 3rd.

Here is how it panned out for me

Round 1 - Burn
Game 1
I had a very good aggressive hand, kept and proceeded to have Muscle, Sinew, Plated by turn 3, turn 4 they ate a flamebreak, whilst my face continued to eat burn. I rebuilt me team then was flame broken again, and then yes thats right a third time, which ended that game quickly, i saw no counter spells in that game at all, every dig with a brainstorm was showing a new team of dudes rather than a way to save my current one.

-2 Stifle -1 Serum Visions +2 Worship +1 Counterspell
Game 2
Had a nice team with Crystalline, Muscle, Plated and sat back on my counters while laying the beats. Got him to 2, then got double price of progressed only being able to counter 1

Loss 0-2

Round 2 - Goblins
Game 1
First game goblins did what they do, and smash face in the most broken way possible, my team of 3 Sinew was looking hot till two of them ate gempalms, and by that stage it was too late.

-2 Counterspell +2 Worship

Game 2
I Mulligan down to 5 (ouch) but they were a nice 5 i proceed to lay a team and just counter everything of any consequence he casts. I win

Game 3
I keep an ordinary hand merely cos it had 3 basic lands, Crystalline Sliver and worship, I take a lot of early beats as i dont name blockers I drop turn 5 worship... gg

Win 2-1

Round 3 - Solidarity
Game 1
He goes off turn 5 and i only have a single FoW in hand, which didnt really stop much.

-4 Swords to Plowshares -3 Winged Sliver + 4 Meddling Mage +2 Stifle

Game 2
He gets stuck on 1 land, and i smash face in about 5 turns gg

Game 3
I had double daze double stifle, and stopped his lands and draw spells, which gave me the game

Win 2-1

Overall 4-4-0

Not too impressive, but not disheartening with more rounds i think things would have been very different, it was in unlucky loss to burn in the first round which dictated my placing from there out. I should have taken the StP out in the first round and put in something, maybe even the mages.

xsockmonkeyx
03-17-2007, 11:08 PM
Well, you beat the Goblin deck and the Combo deck and lost to burn. Sounds about right to me. Honestly that burn matchup is terrible but not one that I really prepare for because, well, its burn. Hopefully next time you guys will have more than 8 players.

@Hanni - I think you and I are going to have to just disagree and forget about it.

Pinder
03-18-2007, 04:07 AM
Regardless, I just mainly wanted to post that I gave up trying to get a Survival list together that I liked for the reasons I mentioned.


I pretty much agree with the conclusions you came to about Survival.



I still support the 4c list and I will continue to believe it to be the perfect configuration for the MD.

I don't really agree with that, but oh well. It's not that splashing black for Hibernation will kill the manabase, I know for a fact that it won't, but between Force, Fetches, and Hibernation the lifeloss can get pretty steep. Also, the tempo lost from bouncing your slivers and having to replay them can be tough as well. Perhaps you could actually make use of Aether Vial. I'm sure the bounce can come in handy, but in my experience it's been more cute than anything else. I'm going to be sticking to 3 color for now.

And just so you know, the most recent build of UWg only runs 2 Counterspells.

Maverick676
03-18-2007, 04:37 AM
-4 Swords to Plowshares -3 Winged Sliver + 4 Meddling Mage +2 Stifle


So your secret tech in the solidarity match is to go down to 59 cards?:smile:

Patoon
03-18-2007, 07:45 AM
So your secret tech in the solidarity match is to go down to 59 cards?:smile:

lol dont tell anyone, there was +1 Counterspell in there as well

Kronicler
03-18-2007, 01:47 PM
I, too, played Counterslivers in a tourney this weekend, and I managed to take 3rd place with a 3-1 record. Here is the list:

Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Windswept Heath

SB:
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1: Christian with Burn

I knew I was playing against burn as soon as I saw the pairings, and I wasn't happy. In a field full of combo and goblins, why did I have to be paired against burn? Ugh...

G1: I had a pretty decent hand, with a Crystalline, a Muscle, a FOW and some cantrips, but unfortunately I cantripped into more cantrips, and lost the race by a turn.

-4 STP, -2 Counterspell
+3 Stifle, +3 Harmonic Sliver

G2: In retrospect this strat wasn't optimal, simply because Counterspell is more useful than stifle against burn. But in the end that didn't even matter. The only creature in my opening hand was a Harmonic Sliver, and I decided that if I was going to race then I needed to mull. Unfortunately I mulled into 5 land and a daze, and then I mulled into 4 creatures and a plains. If I drew another land I would have had a shot at winning, but unfortunately that never happened, and the game was a quick defeat.

Games: 0-2
Matches: 0-1

Round 2: Andrew (aka Aggro Zombies) with U/W Counterballance-Fish

My strat in this match was simply never to let CB resolve. I knew that if he got a CB and Top going then I lost.

G1: I had the counterspell for the CB and the STP for the morphed Exalted Angel. Grunt eventually killed itself and my untargetable beaters took it home.

I completely forget how I boarded... just that I brought in Mages.

G2: I played a mage naming CB, which he sent farming. He played a Serra Avenger and I started laying slivers. He played a Grunt, I sent the Avenger farming, the Grunt killed itself, and he had no answer to my guys.

Games: 2-2
Matches: 1-1

Round 3: Scott with Gobos

G1: I force his turn 1 vial, but have no answer to the second one. I get the all-important turn 2 crystalline, followed up with a turn 3 muscle and a daze on his matron. In the end 3 (!!!!!) Rishadan Ports prevent me from laying slivers, and he vials in ringleader, which gets a ringleader + 2 other gobos, and then that ringleader gets 3 gobos. I ended up being overrun the turn before I was going to win :frown: .

-3 Serum Visions, -3 Counterspell
+3 Stifle, +3 Harmonic Sliver

G2: He has a kinda slow start, and my hand is excellent. I lay down enough early beats that when I drew the Winged sliver I instantly swung for lethal.

G3: He gets slightly mana screwed after starting with Port -> Vial -> go. I get turn 2 Crystalline followed by turn 3 Harmonic Sliver to kill the vial. He tries to pull some some crazy shit with Patron of Akki (go gatherer that shit) but I have the swords, and he can't ever stabalize.

Games: 4-3
Matches: 2-1

Round 4: James with white splashed IGGy Pop

G1: I have cardquality.hand (lol) and play 3-4 cantrips. This allows me to load my hand with a daze, a counterspell, and 2 forces, and my 2 muscle slivers easily take it home after I fizzle James's combo attempt.

-4 STP, -3 Winged Sliver, -2 Crystalline Sliver
+4 Meddling Mage, +3 Stifle, +2 Tormod's Crypt

G2: This game was just brutal. I get a turn 2 MM naming tendrils, then turn 3 cantrip into another Mage and a Crypt. I play them both, with the 2nd mage naming Echoing Truth. He Massacres my mages away and lays 2 defence grids, but I topdeck a 3rd Mage, play it and 2 Sinew Slivers, and he can't win before my mages and slivers clobber him.

Games: 6-3
Matches: 3-1

So... yeah. I had a blast playing the deck, and I'm not sure I would change anything. I definately would not go down to 3 daze, as that will decrease the chance of seeing daze when it is best: the early game. I could see 2 counterspell, but I'm not sure Stifle would do anything more than Counterspell currently does. Plus, I just got the Arena Counterspells, and they are so sweet that I don't want to take them out of my deck.

Kronicler

xsockmonkeyx
03-18-2007, 02:09 PM
So... yeah. I had a blast playing the deck, and I'm not sure I would change anything. I definately would not go down to 3 daze, as that will decrease the chance of seeing daze when it is best: the early game. I could see 2 counterspell, but I'm not sure Stifle would do anything more than Counterspell currently does. Plus, I just got the Arena Counterspells, and they are so sweet that I don't want to take them out of my deck.

Kronicler

I advocate the 3rd Counterspell. The only change I would consider for your list is like -1 Heath +1 Polluted Delta because you are not playing forest, but whatever. I could see where you would want to fetch plains in a pinch. The weakest slots remaining IMO are the 4th serum visions and then the 4th daze (maybe). Im trying 2 Stifle for now to see if those are any better but 4 daze 4 visions is fine.

So, burn games aside I think slivers made a pretty good showing this weekend. Gratz guys.

Volt
03-18-2007, 03:18 PM
Sigh. Stupid burn decks. I've also found random Sligh decks to be tough to deal with it. I'm beginning to think we need to take those matchup a little more seriously, rather than just saying "Bah, they're bad decks. I'll never play them after the first round." It might be worth considering packing 4 Chills in the SB. Even if you don't run into Burn past the first couple rounds of a tournament, the Chills will allow you to CRUSH Goblins to an even greater degree. You might be tempted to say "that's overkill," but considering that Goblins is the most common deck in the format, and one we're likely to run into at all stages of a tournament, I don't think it's a bad idea to add some more percentage points to our Goblins matchup.

4 Chill
4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Armageddon
2 Stifle

Pinder
03-18-2007, 03:23 PM
Sigh. Stupid burn decks. I've also found random Sligh decks to be tough to deal with it. I'm beginning to think we need to take those matchup a little more seriously, rather than just saying "Bah, they're bad decks. I'll never play them after the first round." It might be worth considering packing 4 Chills in the SB. Even if you don't run into Burn past the first couple rounds of a tournament, the Chills will allow you to CRUSH Goblins to an even greater degree. You might be tempted to say "that's overkill," but considering that Goblins is the most common deck in the format, and one we're likely to run into at all stages of a tournament, I don't think it's a bad idea to add some more percentage points to our Goblins matchup.

4 Chill
4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Armageddon
2 Stifle

I hate to say it, but I'll have to concur. I don't know how they do it, but they always manage to squeak a win in the turn before you beat their face in. I don't know if I would go for 4 Chill in the board, though, as that might be too much. Also, there's no Thresh hate in there (well, Armageddon I suppose, but really). Given that it's our worst matchup in the 'Big 3' I think a Tormod's Crypt or two might not be a bad idea.

xsockmonkeyx
03-18-2007, 03:30 PM
I for one love Kronicler's board:

SB:
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

Its...its..beautiful.:eek:

Volt
03-18-2007, 03:31 PM
I hate to say it, but I'll have to concur. I don't know how they do it, but they always manage to squeak a win in the turn before you beat their face in. I don't know if I would go for 4 Chill in the board, though, as that might be too much. Also, there's no Thresh hate in there (well, Armageddon I suppose, but really). Given that it's our worst matchup in the 'Big 3' I think a Tormod's Crypt or two might not be a bad idea.

I have found Meddling Mages to be about as effective as anything against white Thresh. -4 StP +4 Meddling Mage seems to be a winning strategy.



I for one love Kronicler's board:

SB:
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

Its...its..beautiful.:eek:

And almost identical to the sideboard I've been running for a while. But it offers absolutely nothing against Burn decks.

xsockmonkeyx
03-18-2007, 03:43 PM
And almost identical to the sideboard I've been running for a while. But it offers absolutely nothing against Burn decks.

Oh, sorry. :laugh: Great minds think a like I guess.

Bah, stupid burn decks. Maybe something like 3x Chalice? It would be in our favor for the most part when set at 1. The StPs are dead anyway.

Nihil Credo
03-18-2007, 04:07 PM
The 4c version can put Darkheart Sliver in the board. Three would be the best, but since they aren't very good in other matchups, maybe you can play 1-2 Eladamri's Calls and just run one in the SB.

Jiaozy
03-18-2007, 05:04 PM
Chill is also an helping hand against TES (if minor) because it makes their Rite of Flame, Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens a lot less broken :)

Patoon
03-18-2007, 05:17 PM
I think the best tech for the burn matchup would be an enchantment, as opposed to something like chalice. Mono red decks hate enchantments, so once you get it, it kinda screws them, like my goblins game where worship on turn 5 no matter what my position was gg worship is strong against burn as well, but 2 in the board is not consistent enough. maybe we could put in a third

4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Worship
2 Stifle
3 Tormod's Crypt

BTW has anyone else played against Angel Stax, i had 3 pre board games against it on the weekend and didnt stand a chance.

xsockmonkeyx
03-18-2007, 05:30 PM
For burn how about Warmth?

1W
Enchantment
Card Text: Whenever target opponent successfully casts a red spell, gain 2 life.

Turns all of their bolts and blasts into darts and shocks as early as turn 2. Multiples would be savage. Guess it wouldnt be quite as good as Chill though.

Volt
03-18-2007, 05:36 PM
I think the best tech for the burn matchup would be an enchantment, as opposed to something like chalice. Mono red decks hate enchantments, so once you get it, it kinda screws them, like my goblins game where worship on turn 5 no matter what my position was gg worship is strong against burn as well, but 2 in the board is not consistent enough. maybe we could put in a third

4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Worship
2 Stifle
3 Tormod's Crypt

BTW has anyone else played against Angel Stax, i had 3 pre board games against it on the weekend and didnt stand a chance.

3x Worship is a solid plan, although it's frustrating to die with a Worship in hand because you couldn't find a 4th land. That's why I was thinking Chill. Chill is just really, REALLY good against red decks.

Regarding Angel Stax, yeah, I've done a bit of playtesting against it, but not enough to quote percentages of anything. My impression was that game 1 is almost unwinnable. After sideboarding, it's still very tough, but beatable. Harmonic Slivers and Meddling Mages give you a fighting chance, but you're probably in for a long, tough battle. Angel Stax is basically a "hate" deck designed specifically to thwart creature-based strategies. All you can really do is hope you don't run into it very often.

Nihil Credo
03-18-2007, 05:39 PM
BTW has anyone else played against Angel Stax, i had 3 pre board games against it on the weekend and didnt stand a chance.
I had a few encounters with Stax variants in testing (Angel Stax and one blue version). Game 1 is all about Chalice of the Void - if I could counter it or name it with Meddling Mage, I had the chance to beat down before they could stop me. Smokestack isn't an issue with all my permanents, and I could save the FoW/Daze (they play very often into Daze) for the control cards (Prison, Wrath). Otherwise, a Chalice for 2 is basically GG, because even when I drew into Harmonic Sliver I had lost too much tempo and would be under ugly pressure. Chalice for 1 is almost as bad, since without cantrips a few Wastelands were enough to put me out of business.
Game 2, I brought in Serenities, Stifles and the extra Harmonic. The gameplay didn't change all that much from Game 1, only with him having a few more must-counters and me having a "get out of jail free" card in Serenity.

Obfuscate Freely
03-18-2007, 05:50 PM
CounterSliver should do fine against Burn, since it has a decent clock backed up with countermagic. That's how Gro beats the deck.

Try sideboarding out Crystalline Slivers for Meddling Mages. Making your guys untargetable is poor because it shuts off your ability to Swords them for life, and because you should almost always be happy if a Burn player aims a burn spell at one of your creatures instead of at your face.

Mage is nice because it can name Flamebreak, which should often force the opponent to spend a card removing it.

Burn is a combo deck without any draw, which means that it loses easily if you force it to interact. It can't afford to actually trade cards with a deck with superior card manipulation and more effective damage sources (creatures).

If you really want to board for the deck, though, Blue Elemental Blast or Chill would be the way to go, depending on which you find is better against Goblins (since that's a real deck you should actually care about).

Patoon
03-18-2007, 05:57 PM
Dont know about the versions you played against but trinisphere is tough.

this version was mono white

trinisphere, chalice, tangle wire, smoke stack, crucible, wasteland and only the 4 angels for the win, it was tough

Pinder
03-18-2007, 07:52 PM
Try sideboarding out Crystalline Slivers for Meddling Mages.


Wait, what?



Making your guys untargetable is poor because it shuts off your ability to Swords them for life


So, making them unable to remove our threats is bad, because it makes us unable to do it for them?



and because you should almost always be happy if a Burn player aims a burn spell at one of your creatures instead of at your face.


There is some truth to this, but when them picking off one of your creatures gives all of your other creatures -1/-1 (because when are they ever going to kill something other than Muscle or Sinew?), that also slows down your clock, which is no good. Usually them killing your creature rather than damaging you is a good thing, but when it also prevents a good 4-6 damage (from the Sliver itself and from the extra damage your other slivers aren't dealing), it can be a hassle.



Mage is nice because it can name Flamebreak, which should often force the opponent to spend a card removing it.


Winged Sliver > Flamebreak, with the added bonus of not having a double color requirement, and often coming down with 3 or more power for 2 mana. If I'm going to name anything with Mage, it will likely be Price of Progress.




If you really want to board for the deck, though, Blue Elemental Blast or Chill would be the way to go, depending on which you find is better against Goblins (since that's a real deck you should actually care about).

Well, good thing we beat Goblins into the dirt. As far as board options, I think that Chill is probably the best, because it's hard for red to deal with, and sticks to the table for a lasting effect whereas BEB is a one-shot thing. Also, Chill > Warmth IMO due to Force pitchability.

Obfuscate Freely
03-19-2007, 01:19 AM
Wait, what?

Try sideboarding out Crystalline Slivers for Meddling Mages.


So, making them unable to remove our threats is bad, because it makes us unable to do it for them?

Making them unable to remove our threats is bad, because we want them to do it. Their cards are, individually, more precious to them than ours are to us.

Being able to Swords our own creature sounds like bad Magic, but it's not. Trading a Swords and a Sliver for a Fireblast and two Mountains is a fine way to keep ourself from dying. It isn't even very likely to impact our clock, since by the time we're resorting to using STP we should be within a turn or two of winning.

When I play Gro, and I find myself with more than couple of creatures in hand against Burn, I will often play unthreshed Werebears hoping that the Burn player will fry them. Unless it buys them multiple turns, a Burn player simply cannot allow an opponent's creatures to function as Counterspells. If Gro can take advantage of this, than CounterSliver (and its higher creature count) certainly can, too.


There is some truth to this, but when them picking off one of your creatures gives all of your other creatures -1/-1 (because when are they ever going to kill something other than Muscle or Sinew?), that also slows down your clock, which is no good. Usually them killing your creature rather than damaging you is a good thing, but when it also prevents a good 4-6 damage (from the Sliver itself and from the extra damage your other slivers aren't dealing), it can be a hassle.

A Bolt on a Muscle Sliver may slow down our clock, but rarely by more than a turn. Them losing that Bolt will usually slow them down by as many turns as it takes for them to topdeck another Bolt to replace it, which is to say at least a turn. This sort of trade favors Slivers considerably.


Winged Sliver > Flamebreak, with the added bonus of not having a double color requirement, and often coming down with 3 or more power for 2 mana. If I'm going to name anything with Mage, it will likely be Price of Progress.

You might be right on this. My point was just that Mage is decent since it forces them to trade another card.

Have you found it impossible to play around PoP? It seems like the deck is fairly capable of accessing and functioning off of mostly basics. How difficult is it to keep just one nonbasic (Tropical Island) on the board at a time?


Well, good thing we beat Goblins into the dirt. As far as board options, I think that Chill is probably the best, because it's hard for red to deal with, and sticks to the table for a lasting effect whereas BEB is a one-shot thing. Also, Chill > Warmth IMO due to Force pitchability.

Percentage points against Goblins are still far more important than percentage points against Burn. If you are preparing for any sort of competitive Legacy tournament, Burn isn't worth the slightest bit of consideration. Local metagames are different, though.

Pinder
03-19-2007, 01:57 AM
Making them unable to remove our threats is bad, because we want them to do it. Their cards are, individually, more precious to them than ours are to us.


That could be argued, but I see your reasoning.



Being able to Swords our own creature sounds like bad Magic, but it's not. Trading a Swords and a Sliver for a Fireblast and two Mountains is a fine way to keep ourself from dying. It isn't even very likely to impact our clock, since by the time we're resorting to using STP we should be within a turn or two of winning.


I know that Swordsing your own creature can be a solid play, but if we're talking postboard, I doubt I will still have swords in the MD. Unless you're suggesting we keep them in solely for the purpose of removing our slivers to keep ourselves alive?



When I play Gro, and I find myself with more than couple of creatures in hand against Burn, I will often play unthreshed Werebears hoping that the Burn player will fry them. Unless it buys them multiple turns, a Burn player simply cannot allow an opponent's creatures to function as Counterspells. If Gro can take advantage of this, than CounterSliver (and its higher creature count) certainly can, too.

A Bolt on a Muscle Sliver may slow down our clock, but rarely by more than a turn. Them losing that Bolt will usually slow them down by as many turns as it takes for them to topdeck another Bolt to replace it, which is to say at least a turn. This sort of trade favors Slivers considerably.


You may be right about this. And if you have multiple Plated/Sinew/Muscle, they would have to use 2 or more burn spells to kill a sliver. At any rate, you've convinced me to at least try the matchup without Crystalline.




You might be right on this. My point was just that Mage is decent since it forces them to trade another card.

Have you found it impossible to play around PoP? It seems like the deck is fairly capable of accessing and functioning off of mostly basics. How difficult is it to keep just one nonbasic (Tropical Island) on the board at a time?


This is true. PoP in reality shouldn't hurt you as much as I was assuming it would because even though we have so many nonbasics you can function off of basic lands. But on the other hand, sometimes you don't always start with your fetches and you have to lay down early game nonbasics to get started. It's not terribly uncommon for me to still find myself with 2-3 nonbasics on the table because I laid them down before I started fetching. I also sometimes fetch nonbasics to cope with color commitment (for example, if I have a tapped Island in play and a fetch, I would most likely fetch a Tundra so I can SV this turn and still play a Crystalline/Mage/Sinew next turn, etc.) But you're right about it not being as serious a threat.

On further thought, I would probably name Fireblast with Mage, because that's typically what they use to kill you.



Percentage points against Goblins are still far more important than percentage points against Burn. If you are preparing for any sort of competitive Legacy tournament, Burn isn't worth the slightest bit of consideration.

True, but it's not a bad exercise to theorize.

Eatatjoes
03-19-2007, 02:15 AM
what do you guys do in the mirror match? do you have any tech? in a local tourney, the 2 finalists were playing the absolute same deck, seems like the person with the busted draw will win it, they just split

Maverick676
03-19-2007, 03:02 AM
Well the deck isn't popular enough to bother with any sideboard tech against it. But usually mages are sided in, and the game is about tempo and denying your opponent threats using the magi; one neat trick is to resolve the first crystaline sliver and then mage crystaline since it will always be the biggest sliver on the field.

If you see the matchup alot try ensnare in the sideboard.

kicks_422
03-19-2007, 06:49 AM
Yeah, what he said. But if this deck rises in popularity (and I'm sure it will), it's probably best to side out all your StP's and bring in all Slivers you have in the SB (I run 3 Harmonics and 2 Essence SB), as well as Stifles to take out fetchlands.

Pinder
03-19-2007, 12:42 PM
If you see the matchup alot try ensnare in the sideboard.

QFT. The mirror, even if someone tends to get the advantage in the early game, tends to stall once each player has 2-3 slivers on the table. Between 16 Muscle Slivers and 8 Plated, each creature ends up being huge, and having a toughness larger than it's power. Since combat favors the defense in this situation, it is very hard to push through damage. An EOT Ensnare while you have lethal damage piled up (not hard to do with 16 Muscle effects) will let you untap and swing FTW. Just make sure you have counter backup. And that they don't have another Ensnare of their own.

Engineered Explosives is also pretty techy in the mirror if you have it board or main. If you can afford to hold slivers in hand, letting them overextend into an EE at 2 will allow you to drop the slivers in your hand and hopefully gain enough of a lead that you can kill them before they come back.

Heaven help you if you play against a bad sliver deck, though. Since the matchup inevitably goes to the late game, they will almost always have the mana to play their 4/4 tramplers for 6 (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=126015) or their 5 mana 3/3 first strikers (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=126022). Normally these slivers suck, but with the added bonus of all the good slivers your essentially playing for them, their base power and toughness being larger than all of yours makes them hard to deal with. Luckily if they're playing SliversIOwn.dec, you can hopefully beat them before it gets that far. Hopefully.

DarkAkuma
03-20-2007, 01:35 AM
I'm pretty sure the tourney murderface is talking about is the one from saturday here in vegas. I was one of the 2 Countersliver players. I've had this deck together since before this topic even existed, but this was the first time i've been able to pay it in a tourney. I totaly wasen't prepared for the mirror, since no one else around here has ever played it before. I found out the other guy was playing it after the first round started, and i was dreading faceing him all day. We were both lucky not to face each other till the finals, cause i doubt either of us had any tech like ensnare to help swing the mirror in our favor. I know i didnt.

A brief record of my day was:

Round 1: Bye
Round 2: 0-2 (somehow lost to charbelcher. I kept crap hands)
Round 3: 2-0 (some type2 red/green agro deck)
Round 4: 2-0 (guy playing type2 GW Glare)
Round 5: 2-0 (Mono Red Sligh)
Round 6: 2-1 (Survival)
Round 7: Split aganist mirror matchup

Note worthy things being my sad loss to Charbelcher. I wasent in a very good mood in part to getting the bye, finding out theres someone else playing the mirror, and just not haveing enough caffine. I pretty much gave up on doing well that day before i even started the round, and i kept absolutely retarded hands knowing full well what deck he was playing.

Round 6 against survival i lost the second game due to him getting over kill out with Spore Frog, Spike Weaver, and Dawnstrider, while i couldnt rip a Swords for nothing. Also for some damn reason i didnt bring in mages. Dont ask me, i have no clue why i didnt. I brought them in 3rd game, droped one 2nd turn nameing survival, and he could never do anything about it.

In the finals against the mirror we played out game one alittle. I kept a hand with 2 land and 5 slivers (3 being muscle/sinew). I managed to get a advantage early by haveing more creatures, but things soon balanced out. We desided to split the pot just as he was starting to get a advantage.

Very odd day for me.

Anyway, the list i played was kind of thrown together in the few minute before the tourney, so i dont remember it all. Just i only played 3 plated cause thats all i have. 2 harmonic and 1 Talon main. And my sideboard was a mess. If i had more time it would have been alot better, and i would have been all around more prepared (cept for the mirror. Honestly would never have suspected that).

BeeblesofLife
03-22-2007, 11:52 PM
Sort of off topis but, Does anyone know what to expect at gp columbus?
I think thats the name of the legacy grand prix thats going on in like a month or so.
Just asking.

Maverick676
03-23-2007, 01:44 AM
Lots of Gobos and Thresh. Past that I'll expect to see everything from TES to Landstill.

SpikeyMikey
03-29-2007, 02:07 PM
So I have no intention of slogging through 48 pages of posts on countersliver, and I'm going to ask a question that has probably already been beat into the ground. Why bother with the counters? The reason that I ask is this:

Solidarity and TES will be present at a large tourney, but they will not make a significant percentage of the field. These are the matchups that you need counters for, as slivers is not a fast deck, per se, and has no other disruption for combo.

Gro and variants will make up a significant portion of the field, but the problem with Gro is, you have to have an excessive amount of Slivers to win, or you have to keep all their creatures off the board. One on one, even with 8 Muscles, you're not likely to be running over Bears or Dryads or Grunts. So you either have to get 1-2 big swings for the win, or counter all their creatures. They're better set up to play the aggro control game than you are, so trying to beat them that by denying their threats is probably not going to work.

Goblins is probably a very good matchup for CounterSliver. Since I'm not reading all 48 pages, I don't know how good, but I know that Slivers without counters runs 90% plus(no bullshit) against Gobbos, at least, out of the dozen or so games I've played, I have yet to lose one or even come close to losing a game. Goblins also will make up a significant portion of the field at any large tournament, it will likely be the most populous deck.

Slivers (obviously) are more scary the more of them you have. Even if the additional slivers are not adding anything to your list of abilities (your second Winged Sliver), likely they're going to constitute a significant threat in their own right (say a 3/4 flyer for 1U, which is better than Serendib Efreet, I've heard 'dib is some good).

The reason that I pose this question is because on a whim, I decided to put together a 1.5 Slivers deck about a week ago, in the hopes that it would give me something to smack around Goblins with. I didn't expect it to actually be good, because, well, it's Slivers. I considered going CounterSliver, but I felt that there wasn't really anything in Goblins that I'd want to counter, and after having played it against random people on MWS and against a few tier decks in my roomate's hands, I haven't found anything that constitutes a bad matchup, outside of combo decks.

Not surprisingly, I'm running all the slivers from the listing in the OP, but I'm also running Quilled, Sidewinder, Victual and Quick Sliver, along with Eladamri's Call.

Tacosnape
03-29-2007, 03:25 PM
On further thought, I would probably name Fireblast with Mage, because that's typically what they use to kill you.

I wouldn't. I'd name Price of Progress. If they kill the mage, you then know they're holding a Price (or think they have to draw into one to win) and can save your counter accordingly.


what do you guys do in the mirror match? do you have any tech? in a local tourney, the 2 finalists were playing the absolute same deck, seems like the person with the busted draw will win it, they just split

If the mirror became serious, Turnabout would be neat. Tap all your opponent's creatures down to Fog and allow a lethal swing next turn. Or if your opponent Turnabouts you and swings all in, Turnabout them back.

Pinder
03-29-2007, 03:57 PM
Not surprisingly, I'm running all the slivers from the listing in the OP, but I'm also running Quilled, Sidewinder, Victual and Quick Sliver, along with Eladamri's Call.

On that note, may I suggest Aether Vial?

Indeed, more slivers would give you a better game against Goblins, but near as I can tell not having counters would make your matchup horrible against heavy board control as well as combo. From what you've told me, I can only imagine that Deed/EE/Disk/WoG bends you over the table. All I know is that a resolved WoG et al is pretty bad for us, although you might be able to recover faster between a higher threat density and Call.

Either way, feel free to pursue this thought, but for now I'm sticking to my counterspells. I guess I'll just have to settle for 70-30 against Gobs. *sigh*.



If the mirror became serious, Turnabout would be neat. Tap all your opponent's creatures down to Fog and allow a lethal swing next turn. Or if your opponent Turnabouts you and swings all in, Turnabout them back.


That's why we have thought about Ensnare. If you time it right (i.e., during your opponent's turn) it's basically the same thing, but Ensnare is all kinds of free, which makes it better here IMO.

Also, it doesn't require UU. Of course, I doubt getting UU will ever really be a problem, but it's there.

Bongo
03-29-2007, 05:02 PM
On that note, may I suggest Aether Vial?

Indeed, more slivers would give you a better game against Goblins, but near as I can tell not having counters would make your matchup horrible against heavy board control as well as combo. From what you've told me, I can only imagine that Deed/EE/Disk/WoG bends you over the table.




That's the reason why I'm running the 4color build with Hibernation Sliver, it renders all mass removal useless. Between Crystaline and Hibernation you cover every possible removal spell.
Aether Vial is also included, since the interaction with Hibernation Sliver is so damn good, it accelerates, colorfixes and circumvents counters. With more Slivers, your threat count is now high enough to justify Vial.

The only matchup where I really want the counters is combo. Since combo is not very prevalent right now, I think it's acceptable to leave your combo hate in the board, therefore bettering all your other matchups.

I'd love to hear your thoughts about this approach.

Kronicler
03-29-2007, 07:13 PM
I disagree with the assumption that combo isn't very prevalent atm. While Solidarity and IGGy may be slightly on the down swing, TES and Aluren sure aren't. I also disagree with the assumption that our counters are only good against combo. Daze is excellent against Gobos and any black disruption decks (I'll daze your sinkhole. Go ahead, pay the 1, I dare you). FOW is good against.... everything. This deck doesn't have the speed, resiliency, or card advantage to exist as purely aggro. That is, until we get the much salivated over sliver ringleader :tongue: .

Kronicler

Pinder
03-29-2007, 10:56 PM
I'd love to hear your thoughts about this approach.

If you want those, just go back through this thread and search for 'Hanni'. You'll see all of the opinions we gave him on the 4c build. Long story short, I'm not a terribly huge fan of the 4c build. It's not like it's horrible, but I just don't think it warrants the black splash just for Hibernation and neato combat tricks. And I'm not sure that adding a whopping slivers justfies Aether Vial, but I can see how it would be useful while you're busy bouncing your Slivers to play them again for free.

Try it, and if you like it, go ahead. I'm sticking to UWg for now.

Tacosnape
03-30-2007, 02:55 AM
That's why we have thought about Ensnare. If you time it right (i.e., during your opponent's turn) it's basically the same thing, but Ensnare is all kinds of free, which makes it better here IMO.

Also, it doesn't require UU. Of course, I doubt getting UU will ever really be a problem, but it's there.

Getting UU won't be a problem in any match you -want- the Turnabout. The more interesting part of it is that you can Turnabout your own guys to untap them in response to the Ensnare, causing serious mayhem once they've committed to the swing.

Still, though, Ensnaring back would work just as well and is probably the better idea. Peer Pressure is also an amusing concept.

Pinder
03-30-2007, 03:05 AM
Peer Pressure is also an amusing concept.

:O. I never even thought of that. Reeks of win-more (since you have to have more than them anyway), but it would be fun to spring on someone...

DarkAkuma
03-31-2007, 12:17 AM
:O. I never even thought of that. Reeks of win-more (since you have to have more than them anyway), but it would be fun to spring on someone...

Looks kind of fun, but in a sliver stalemate hands will fill up with counters. I'd preffer to provoke a counter war at the end of my opponants turn with a free cast ensnare, rather then do it during my own turn with a 4cc sorcery. Hell of a way to start a counter war too, -4 mana....

SpikeyMikey
03-31-2007, 06:44 AM
On that note, may I suggest Aether Vial?

Indeed, more slivers would give you a better game against Goblins, but near as I can tell not having counters would make your matchup horrible against heavy board control as well as combo. From what you've told me, I can only imagine that Deed/EE/Disk/WoG bends you over the table. All I know is that a resolved WoG et al is pretty bad for us, although you might be able to recover faster between a higher threat density and Call.

Either way, feel free to pursue this thought, but for now I'm sticking to my counterspells. I guess I'll just have to settle for 70-30 against Gobs. *sigh*.


Yes, board clearers are bad for me, but not ridiculously bad. In fact, I think a resolved board clearing spell is worse for you, because as you mention, I have the higher threat density and call to find necessary slivers. Of course, the chance of a board clearing spell resolving against me is infintely higher than it is against you, I have no way to stop it, although I can play around it by holding a Quick Sliver and a few others in my hand. Generally, anything clearing the board with Deed or WoG isn't going to be running very many creatures, so it's not a particular problem to drop 2-3 slivers EoT and then beat with them next turn, saving whatever else I've got for the next mass removal spell.

Even so, you're still better set up to deal with WoG than I am, but I just don't see much WoG/Disk/Deed/EE/Keg/etc. out there. The biggest problem that *I* see is CotV set at 2, and G1, there's really nothing I can do about it. If control sees a big upswing at some point in the future, it wouldn't really be that difficult to get around, Telekinetic Sliver is GG for counter control if it comes down, and you've got Root Sliver to make sure that it does. It could always be boarded in for a control heavy environment.

Combo has a bye against my deck, especially G1, since I can't race and I have no denial, but that can be shored up in the board with things like Orim's Chant, or other, more techy solutions. I used to run a card called Soul Echo in board for Keeper against Tendrils based combo decks, since they have no actual damage dealing capability, 1WW means they can't win. Of course, it was a little more impressive in a format where it could come down turn 1 with a Lotus or turn 2 on any decent hand, which is why it was better than Ivory Mask, but still, I'm sure there are equally tech tricks to dealing with 1.5 combo right now, I just haven't seen much of a presence, so I haven't worried about it.

Pinder
03-31-2007, 01:38 PM
Yes, board clearers are bad for me, but not ridiculously bad. In fact, I think a resolved board clearing spell is worse for you, because as you mention, I have the higher threat density and call to find necessary slivers.


This is probably true. But that's why we try not to let those resolve.



Of course, the chance of a board clearing spell resolving against me is infintely higher than it is against you, I have no way to stop it, although I can play around it by holding a Quick Sliver and a few others in my hand. Generally, anything clearing the board with Deed or WoG isn't going to be running very many creatures, so it's not a particular problem to drop 2-3 slivers EoT and then beat with them next turn, saving whatever else I've got for the next mass removal spell.


I've never been a big fan of Quick Sliver, but I suppose that in this case it could be useful. Do you find youself ever using outside of fighting mass removal?



The biggest problem that *I* see is CotV set at 2, and G1, there's really nothing I can do about it.


If it sticks to the table, a Chalice @ 2 can be bad for us G1. Luckily it doesn't usually stick to the table. G2 we have Harmonic, which luckily costs 3.



If control sees a big upswing at some point in the future, it wouldn't really be that difficult to get around, Telekinetic Sliver is GG for counter control if it comes down, and you've got Root Sliver to make sure that it does. It could always be boarded in for a control heavy environment.


Whoa...Telekenetic? Root? Are we talking about the same deck? If a sliver costs 4 mana, it has to be very good to make the cut over titans like Muscle, Sinew, and Crystalline. If you see a lot of Control in the field, I could see Root Sliver coming in, but what purpose could Telekenetic serve that Root doesn't against Control? The only thing I can think of offhand is to tap down their lands to avoid counterspells, but if you have Root, why bother? It seems like attacking with untapped slivers is a better option than tapping them down.



Combo has a bye against my deck, especially G1, since I can't race and I have no denial, but that can be shored up in the board with things like Orim's Chant, or other, more techy solutions.


From what I've heard, it sounds like you've worsened your Control and Combo matchups in order to increase an already favorable Aggro matchup. Am I missing something?

Maverick676
03-31-2007, 06:20 PM
Nope your not missing anything, the guy is just an idiot. A sliver deck with no counters has no way of winning against a control deck. Board sweepers will kill you plain and simple. Meathooks runs counterspells so that it isn't a mindless aggro deck that rolls to every card with the words destroy and creatures on it. If you are just playing "slivers I thought were cool.dec" then please refrain from posting in here since you obviously have nothing insightful to add to the conversation.

Pinder
03-31-2007, 07:35 PM
Nope your not missing anything, the guy is just an idiot...you obviously have nothing insightful to add to the conversation..

See here? This is why we can't have nice things. Simmer down, man.

Maverick676
03-31-2007, 07:38 PM
See here? This is why we can't have nice things. Simmer down, man.

What? there were some reasonable statements in there.

Kokusho17
04-01-2007, 12:18 AM
Just a little tourney report from my local store.

Round Robin.
Match 1: Tooth and Nail (Urzatron)
Game 1: I lose to a few recurring Oblivion Stone
Game 2: In come the MM and Harmonics. Turn 2 Mage naming Tooth.
Game 3: Countering everything then run him over, he tries to stall with Moments Peace

Match 2: Angel Stompy w/ Cataclysm
Game 1: Angel comes down early and beats me silly.
Game 2: In come MM and Harmonics. Beat him down.
Game 3: I run out of counters and he uses a timely Cataclysm to gain the win.

Match 3: Homebrew Numot Nuke everything.
Game 1: Counter his early threats and attack.
Game 2: Same as above.

2-1 in round robin gains me second place going into the finals.

Semi Finals.
Match 1: Homebrew Black Deck.
Game 1: Counter her early threats and attack.
Game 2: Same as above.

Finals. I would have been facing the Tooth and Nail guy from my first match but he had to go so we ended up splitting the prizes (2 packs each [not bad for a $2 entry fee]).

The decklist i used is the same one on the first page but incase people are feeling lazy ill post it here along with the sideboard i used.

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Slive
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Daze

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard: (i only needed to side in the Mages and the Harmonics as those are the only cards i have for my sideboard at the moment.)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Trickbind
3 Armageddon
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Tormod's Crypt

Thus ends my little tourney report. Laters

SpikeyMikey
04-01-2007, 12:44 AM
Nope your not missing anything, the guy is just an idiot. A sliver deck with no counters has no way of winning against a control deck. Board sweepers will kill you plain and simple. Meathooks runs counterspells so that it isn't a mindless aggro deck that rolls to every card with the words destroy and creatures on it. If you are just playing "slivers I thought were cool.dec" then please refrain from posting in here since you obviously have nothing insightful to add to the conversation.


Thanks for the vote of confidence. You know, I'm not a Legacy guru these days, I more or less retired from the format a long time ago. I'm just talking, discussing the deck and it's role, and why it's constructed the way it is. I don't think that slivers make for an effective aggro control deck in the traditional sense because the traditional strategy of aggro control is to drop 1 or 2 threats then sit back on cheap control and tempo tricks. Slivers, as aggro control creatures, are ineffective. Yes, I know that CounterSliver was the original aggro control deck, but times, they have a changed. Slivers are simply smaller than other aggressive creatures these days, and they are more effective, by design, when you have more of them out. This is why, up until recently, people haven't seriously considered them as a win condition.

The only reason that slivers are viable right now is that the environment is not dominated by control decks powered by board clearers, in fact, the environment, as far as I can see from the Source and what little playing I do on MWS is nearly void of the iron tower style control decks that used to be so popular in 1.5 and in T1 pre-Mirrodin. What I do see a lot of is Goblins, Gro, and midrange aggro in a variety of colors, B/W, R/G, R/G/B, WW/Angel Stompy, etc.

In any case, I apologize most humbly for dirtying your thread, I'll keep further discussions in PM with Pinder.

xsockmonkeyx
04-01-2007, 12:46 AM
What? there were some reasonable statements in there.

There was also a lot of troll in there too.

FOr the record Im also currently playing Sliversthatithinkarecool.dec, it just happens to be this one.

Volt
04-01-2007, 04:00 AM
Mav, you're my teammate and all, and I'll always back you in a knife fight, but stop being such a jerk-ass. K? Seriously, no kidding around, no smiley faces, just stop being a fuckhead.

Maverick676
04-01-2007, 06:34 AM
In the future I will try to be more respectful in my posts, but I will not apologize for what I said. I meant it when I wrote it and I still mean it now. The list Spikey is refferring to in his posts is very different than counterslivers, counterspells are a huge part of why this deck can win. It is a very well established concept that straight aggro, especially if it is not lightning fast, without some kind of disruption i.e. tangle wire, discard, counters, ect. loses almost without fail to both combo and control decks. Both of which you can expect to see at a large tournament. The only thing about his deck that is similar to ours is that it runs slivers.

Soto
04-01-2007, 11:51 PM
I know the deck is called CounterSliver, but i'm questionning counterspell. The deck already runs only 18 lands so to have 2 open for it is (imo) quite hard to get when you need to drop your slivers. My question is this, if you have them, do you play them? (talking bout sliver) Obviously you don't if they got alot of hate (stp and wog), but otherwise you should rely on fow and daze as your control. Am i wrong?

Pinder
04-01-2007, 11:55 PM
I know the deck is called CounterSliver, but i'm questionning counterspell. The deck already runs only 18 lands so to have 2 open for it is (imo) quite hard to get when you need to drop your slivers. My question is this, if you have them, do you play them? (talking bout sliver) Obviously you don't if they got alot of hate (stp and wog), but otherwise you should rely on fow and daze as your control. Am i wrong?

Typically your primary source of countermagic is Daze and FoW. Counterspell is there because we found that we needed more hard counters for the expensive stuff in the late game that Daze just can't counter. There's only 2, though, because typically you don't want to see them until after 4th turn or so.

Maverick676
04-02-2007, 01:27 AM
What he said, usually counterspell stops that sweeper spelled played right before you swing for the win.

BeeblesofLife
04-02-2007, 12:45 PM
Stupid question, Have you guys tried the top counterblance thingy that thresh is currently trying out? I know the deck is designed to be more or less aggro control but, have any of you tried the fish approach to this thing?


Oh and its nice to see someone else from team info ninja getting bashed for once.:wink:

Volt
04-02-2007, 12:54 PM
Stupid question, Have you guys tried the top counterblance thingy that thresh is currently trying out? I know the deck is designed to be more or less aggro control but, have any of you tried the fish approach to this thing?

It has been brought up (by yours truly, actually), but not yet tested.

kicks_422
04-03-2007, 08:06 PM
A few questions regarding everyone's build right now:

1. How many lands?
I run 17, but I think I'm going back up to 18.

2. Counterspell?
I run 4 because there are still a lot of things to coutner nowadays.

3. Sideboard?
This is what I run:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Essence Sliver - because I'm having trouble with Dryad Sligh :tongue:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Stifle

Wherein the 2 Crypts could possibly become Ensnare if the mirror match comes up too often.

Kronicler
04-03-2007, 08:13 PM
Currently I run 18 lands, 2 counterspell, and this SB:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chill
2 Stifle

If I were going to take the deck to a larger tournament I would switch chills with Crypts, but in my meta I see burn/sligh as well as tons of gobos and absolutely zero thresh, so chill serves me better.

Kronicler

Volt
04-03-2007, 08:15 PM
18 lands, 2 counterspells.

Oh, and yeah, Sligh is actually a problematic matchup. Straight-up Burn can be handled without too much trouble, but Sligh tends to run us over. I had somone play my Rancor Sligh deck against me the other day, and he beat me like 5 games in a row. Essence Sliver is probably about as good as anything for that matchup. Worship is also good, but can be K-Gripped away.

Btw, although this thread has slowed way down, development of this deck has continued in a private forum. We're presently working on a new primer that blows our old one away. Look for it to be posted within the next week or two.

Nihil Credo
04-06-2007, 09:48 AM
Although we're all eager to see what the private development will produce, in the meanwhile I urge everyone to try playing with maindeck Meddling Mages. Without going into details, it's good against the whole field and only sucks versus "dumb aggro" (Sligh and the like) which is an awful matchup anyway. You can find my list at the beginning of the second-to-last page.

Also, I am currently testing Worldly Tutor in place of Eladamri's Call. Not being able to cast the Tutor and a threat in the same turn was a huge liability, and the card disadvantage isn't problematic since what I fetch usually wins me the game. Being able to go turn 1 Tutor -> turn 2 Mage is also great against fast combo. The fact that Tutor is a lousy topdeck is its biggest flaw, but then, so is Call when you have 3 or fewer lands (Predict might also be randomly bad, but that's a narrow problem).

TheDrunkDwarf
04-06-2007, 11:04 AM
Has anyone tested Muddle the Mixture in place of counterspell? Now it wont stop a disk or a deed (the first of which can be harmoniced) but it seems to serve the same purpose as counterspell by stopping board clearing sorceries from going off. In addition, against decks that dont run any sort of clearing spell, u can always use it to tutor for whatever sliver u need. thoughts?

sammiel
04-06-2007, 11:24 AM
cause you are more likely to see pernicious deed than wrath of god in legacy, and a resolved deed means you lose your entire board.

iOWN
04-06-2007, 11:34 AM
cause you are more likely to see pernicious deed than wrath of god in legacy, and a resolved deed means you lose your entire board.

But you are also more likely to see Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate + various other removal spells, and Muddle can fetch the Crystalline which protects you from all of that. Muddle can still deal with any kind of disruption (Sinkholes, Hymn, etc.), which in total appear much more than a single problem card. I think Muddle over Counterspell can be considered a metagame decision because obviously it isn't going to work as well in say, the San Diego metagame, where Landstill would appear more often than most else and all counters need to focus on stopping board-clearing.

Kronicler
04-06-2007, 01:56 PM
Maindeck mages are bad because they give your opponents' targeted removal a use.

Wordly tutor is bad because this deck has no way to recover from card disadvantage. Also, with 8 muscle slivers, the tutor effect is simply unneeded.

Muddle the mixture is bad because it can't counter the 2 best board sweepers against us, deed and EE, and because the tutor cost is rediculously over priced.

I'm sure someone will go into a little more detail, but these are the general reasons why these cards are bad choices. .

Kronicler

Volt
04-06-2007, 02:17 PM
Maindeck mages are bad because they give your opponents' targeted removal a use.

Wordly tutor is bad because this deck has no way to recover from card disadvantage. Also, with 8 muscle slivers, the tutor effect is simply unneeded.

Muddle the mixture is bad because it can't counter the 2 best board sweepers against us, deed and EE, and because the tutor cost is rediculously over priced.

I'm sure someone will go into a little more detail, but these are the general reasons why these cards are bad choices. .

Kronicler

Meddling Mages in the maindeck aren't "bad," per se. They're just not optimal, imo. By putting them in the main, you are necessarily watering down your Goblins matchup, as well as other aggro matchups. Nihil, for example, cut down to 1 Winged Sliver to help make room for the Mages. Winged Slivers are too important to only be running one. Sure, I know he's running Eladamri's Call, but the tempo-loss from that card has been well-discussed. I used to be the strongest advocate of EC, but even I have cut it.

The combo matchups are just fine with Mages in the sideboard. You're no worse than 45/55 in game 1 of the major combo matchups, and solidly favored after.

Kronicler is spot on about Muddle and Worldly.

Nihil Credo
04-06-2007, 02:21 PM
Maindeck mages are bad because they give your opponents' targeted removal a use.

Only if you have Crystalline Sliver in play before they have the chance to play their spot removal, otherwise they'll just pick off some Slivers in response. Moreover, a very large part of the metagame runs 4 or less targeted removal cards (Not counting Jitte, which hurts even without being able to use the -1/-1 counters).


Wordly tutor is bad because this deck has no way to recover from card disadvantage. Also, with 8 muscle slivers, the tutor effect is simply unneeded.I practically always fetch one of the following with Tutor: Harmonic Sliver, Winged Sliver (I run both as 1-ofs) or Crystalline Sliver. They all provide such massive, game-winning effects that drawing a card pales in comparison.


Meddling Mages in the maindeck aren't "bad," per se. They're just not optimal, imo. By putting them in the main, you are necessarily watering down your Goblins matchup, as well as other aggro matchups.

That's true. I see a lot more aggro-control, control, prison, and even combo than straightforward aggro decks nowadays, which is why I adopted MD Mages (For the same reason, for example, I maindeck Duress in UBW Fish).


Nihil, for example, cut down to 1 Winged Sliver to help make room for the Mages. Winged Slivers are too important to only be running one.I will disagree on that. My Slivers are almost always bigger than whatever's on the other side of the board, and if there's something bigger, it often flies (Enforcer, Angel, Drake). Winged Sliver is really only useful for flying over a swarm of weenies.


Sure, I know he's running Eladamri's Call, but the tempo-loss from that card has been well-discussed. I used to be the strongest advocate of EC, but even I have cut it.The tempo problem is exactly why I'm switching to Worldly Tutor (and from the first dozen games I've played, I'm inclined to keep it in). See above for my defense of Tutor.


Regarding Muddle the Mixture: I found Eladamri's Call's GW cost to be a big issue with that card; I'd rarely if ever be willing to pay 1UU for a tutor that can't even get Harmonic Sliver. It is not close to compensating for being worse than Counterspell.

kicks_422
04-06-2007, 07:55 PM
That's true. I see a lot more aggro-control, control, prison, and even combo than straightforward aggro decks nowadays, which is why I adopted MD Mages (For the same reason, for example, I maindeck Duress in UBW Fish).

Regarding the MD Mages issue, I think I'd rather keep Stifles MD against combo instead of Mages.


I will disagree on that. My Slivers are almost always bigger than whatever's on the other side of the board, and if there's something bigger, it often flies (Enforcer, Angel, Drake). Winged Sliver is really only useful for flying over a swarm of weenies.

Which is why Winged Sliver is so important. Against aggro, the ground gets too gummed up. Mising a Winged Sliver lets you fly over to win instantly, rather than powering through with Slivers that are bigger than their creatures.

Illissius
04-06-2007, 08:19 PM
Maindeck mages are bad because they give your opponents' targeted removal a use.

This is the usual argument and the one I used for a long time. In the abstract, it makes a lot of sense. But as Toad pointed out, considering the actual concrete decks popular in Legacy:

- Meddling Mage is obviously awesome against combo, they run very little removal and Mage forces them to waste time to find it and/or die.

- Threshold and relatives also don't run much targetted removal, most of the time only Swords to Plowshares. So against them, you can just... name Swords to Plowshares, making Mage into something like half a Crystalline Sliver.

- The removal in Goblins is all dual purpose: either removal, or a Goblin. So they get to use Incinerator on your Mage -- tremendous loss. Otherwise, they would've hardcasted it as a creature and not cared too much. Mage is obviously not optimal in this matchup, but it's not really worse in Slivers than in any other deck.

That accounts for the top three decks in Legacy. For Meddling Mage to be a liability, your opponent needs to be running lots and multiple kinds of targetted removal, which I don't think is too common (Rifter, Burn... what else?). Against them, you side it out. Whether you want to side it in when you want it or side it out when you don't is up to you, but "it makes their removal good" isn't a good argument, I think.

xsockmonkeyx
04-06-2007, 09:05 PM
A few questions regarding everyone's build right now:

1. How many lands?
18. 3 basic, 7 fetch.

2. Counterspell?
3 is the right number for me.

3. Sideboard?
This is what I run:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Stifle
3 Needle

Pinder
04-07-2007, 12:49 AM
This is the usual argument and the one I used for a long time. In the abstract, it makes a lot of sense. But as Toad pointed out, considering the actual concrete decks popular in Legacy:

- Meddling Mage is obviously awesome against combo, they run very little removal and Mage forces them to waste time to find it and/or die.

- Threshold and relatives also don't run much targetted removal, most of the time only Swords to Plowshares. So against them, you can just... name Swords to Plowshares, making Mage into something like half a Crystalline Sliver.

- The removal in Goblins is all dual purpose: either removal, or a Goblin. So they get to use Incinerator on your Mage -- tremendous loss. Otherwise, they would've hardcasted it as a creature and not cared too much. Mage is obviously not optimal in this matchup, but it's not really worse in Slivers than in any other deck.

That accounts for the top three decks in Legacy. For Meddling Mage to be a liability, your opponent needs to be running lots and multiple kinds of targetted removal, which I don't think is too common (Rifter, Burn... what else?). Against them, you side it out. Whether you want to side it in when you want it or side it out when you don't is up to you, but "it makes their removal good" isn't a good argument, I think.

You make a very strong point there. The only question is, what would we take out? I'm not removing any slivers from the deck. And that's not really a rhetorical question. I really want to hear thoughts on this.

I suppose that since Meddling Mage is sort of a counterspell on legs, we could theoretically remove the counterspells and one other thing for 4 Meddling Mages maindeck. It's worth a shot if we do it right.

Volt
04-07-2007, 02:06 AM
This is the usual argument and the one I used for a long time. In the abstract, it makes a lot of sense. But as Toad pointed out, considering the actual concrete decks popular in Legacy:

- Meddling Mage is obviously awesome against combo, they run very little removal and Mage forces them to waste time to find it and/or die.

- Threshold and relatives also don't run much targetted removal, most of the time only Swords to Plowshares. So against them, you can just... name Swords to Plowshares, making Mage into something like half a Crystalline Sliver.

- The removal in Goblins is all dual purpose: either removal, or a Goblin. So they get to use Incinerator on your Mage -- tremendous loss. Otherwise, they would've hardcasted it as a creature and not cared too much. Mage is obviously not optimal in this matchup, but it's not really worse in Slivers than in any other deck.

That accounts for the top three decks in Legacy. For Meddling Mage to be a liability, your opponent needs to be running lots and multiple kinds of targetted removal, which I don't think is too common (Rifter, Burn... what else?). Against them, you side it out. Whether you want to side it in when you want it or side it out when you don't is up to you, but "it makes their removal good" isn't a good argument, I think.

With all due respect to Toad, his CounterSliver build sucks ballz. He would have us maindeck Mages, moved Plated Slivers to the side (because "playing Plated Sliver is good way to lose to combo, silly American." Okay, I added on the silly American part.), cut Winged Sliver to 1, play only 3 Swords, 3 Muscle Slivers, no basic lands, and some other stupid shit like that. Seriously, his CounterSliver deck (which he has been playing "since before GP Lille" blah blah blah) is an absolute pile of crap. He should stick to Aluren.

Granted, the argument that "Meddling Mage is bad because it gives your opponent a target for his removal" is indeed a mediocre one (although not totally invalid). Personally, I don't use that argument. My argument against it is that I would rather hone the deck to beat Goblins and other aggro in game 1, and then side in Mages to deal with combo & control. I rarely lose to combo using this strategy. Board control decks like Landstill and Wombat are tough for us to beat no matter what. In this deck, slivers > Meddling Mage most of the time.

kicks_422
04-07-2007, 07:38 AM
An FS keyword has been spoiled that I find interesting.

Absorb: 1
"If a source would deal damage to a Sliver creature, prevent 1 of that damage."

Assuming that it's going to get printed on a Sliver and not just used as an example, this would be a "better" Plated Sliver... I hope it gets printed at 1cc... :tongue:

Back on topic, I have to agree that Meddling Mages MD have their merits (and I believe is one of the major reasons of the success of UGW Thresh), but for this deck, there's simply no room. It's a welcome addition to the SB though - not only against combo (where it's obviously very helpful), but also against board sweepers if it gets to stick (WOG's, Deeds, etc.)

Goaswerfraiejen
04-07-2007, 01:45 PM
An FS keyword has been spoiled that I find interesting.

Absorb: 1
"If a source would deal damage to a Sliver creature, prevent 1 of that damage."

Assuming that it's going to get printed on a Sliver and not just used as an example, this would be a "better" Plated Sliver... I hope it gets printed at 1cc... :tongue:


The only way it might appear on a sliver is if that sliver has an ability that is independent of all other slivers (which is unlikely, except for legendary slivers--which are hard to play comptetitively). Imagine "All Slivers gain 'Absorb 1'". That would be ridiculous. =/

No, I suspect we're looking at some other kind of permanent, sort of like Hivestone--which probably means that Plated Sliver won't be displaced.

As for the Mages, I agree with you--I think that they're best in the board, unless local metagames dictate otherwise.

Pinder
04-07-2007, 04:06 PM
Imagine "All Slivers gain 'Absorb 1'". That would be ridiculous. =/


In that case it would stack, and Slivers would be invincible. Imagine if the first 2-3 (or even 4) damage to any Sliver was automatically prevented. And on a 1 drop? I mean, holy shit.



No, I suspect we're looking at some other kind of permanent, sort of like Hivestone--which probably means that Plated Sliver won't be displaced.


The fact that you're probably right about that makes me sad.



As for the Mages, I agree with you--I think that they're best in the board, unless local metagames dictate otherwise.

<3

Nihil Credo
04-07-2007, 05:17 PM
Regarding the MD Mages issue, I think I'd rather keep Stifles MD against combo instead of Mages.
Stifles can be dead and aren't a threat, though.


Which is why Winged Sliver is so important. Against aggro, the ground gets too gummed up. Mising a Winged Sliver lets you fly over to win instantly, rather than powering through with Slivers that are bigger than their creatures.
Why is powering through with bigger Slivers such a bad strategy? The only time that's unfeasible (and the fat doesn't fly) is against Goblins.
In other words: what decks other than Goblins is Winged Sliver good against?

Imagine "All Slivers gain 'Absorb 1'". That would be ridiculous. =/
Why? "Absorb Sliver" (a 1/1 for W with the ability) would only be better than Plated Sliver when one of your creature is dealt damage from multiple sources in the same turn. How often does that happen? On the other side, it would be worse than Plated Sliver at making your Slivers survive Engineered Plague and Jitte counters. I'm not sure "Absorb Sliver" would be that powerful. You could go up to 5-6 Plated Slivers, but not break anything.

Pinder
04-07-2007, 05:43 PM
Why? "Absorb Sliver" (a 1/1 for W with the ability) would only be better than Plated Sliver when one of your creature is dealt damage from multiple sources in the same turn. How often does that happen? On the other side, it would be worse than Plated Sliver at making your Slivers survive Engineered Plague and Jitte counters. I'm not sure "Absorb Sliver" would be that powerful. You could go up to 5-6 Plated Slivers, but not break anything.

Oh, I'm not saying that they would replace Plated, but if it was a 1/1 for W, it would definitely have a lot going for it in terms of inclusion alongside Plated.

Goaswerfraiejen
04-07-2007, 06:01 PM
Why? "Absorb Sliver" (a 1/1 for W with the ability) would only be better than Plated Sliver when one of your creature is dealt damage from multiple sources in the same turn. How often does that happen? On the other side, it would be worse than Plated Sliver at making your Slivers survive Engineered Plague and Jitte counters. I'm not sure "Absorb Sliver" would be that powerful. You could go up to 5-6 Plated Slivers, but not break anything.

If the sliver had Absorb 1, that wouldn't be a problem. Note, however, that I said that given the way that slivers currently work, it seems highly unlikely that a non-legendary sliver will have an ability that doesn't translate to all slivers in play (indeed, I'd be disappointed if that were to change). Meaning that if it were a 1/1 for W that read "All slivers gain 'Absorb 1'" (an ability that translates universally to all slivers), you pretty much wouldn't be able to destroy slivers with damage of any sort. And that, I think, would be too powerful--not to mention a headache to keep track of.

It's much more likely that Absorb 1 exists on a non-sliver creature permanent, or that the ability does not, in fact, reduce damage from ALL slivers, but only from -this- particular creature with the ability (in which case it's fine on a 1/1 for W).

Nihil Credo
04-07-2007, 06:30 PM
Meaning that if it were a 1/1 for W that read "All slivers gain 'Absorb 1'" (an ability that translates universally to all slivers), you pretty much wouldn't be able to destroy slivers with damage of any sort. And that, I think, would be too powerful--not to mention a headache to keep track of.
That's exactly what I was assuming it could be. And as I said, it would not be that much better than Plated Sliver, and possibly even worse.

"All Slivers gain 'Absorb 1'" works just like "All Slivers get +0/+1" unless

1) the same Sliver is dealt damage more than once during a turn (Absorb is better)

2) -X/-X effects are involved (Plated is better)

Perhaps you are mistaken about how the ability would work (or perhaps I am)?

Goaswerfraiejen
04-07-2007, 06:42 PM
That's exactly what I was assuming it could be. And as I said, it would not be that much better than Plated Sliver, and possibly even worse.

"All Slivers gain 'Absorb 1'" works just like "All Slivers get +0/+1" unless

1) the same Sliver is dealt damage more than once during a turn (Absorb is better)

2) -X/-X effects are involved (Plated is better)

Perhaps you are mistaken about how the ability would work (or perhaps I am)?



I think I see where we're running into problems.

The way it's currently worded, it would be absurd to conjoin absorb with "all slivers gain" because both are universal effects. To see my point, just replace "Absorb 1" with what it means, and you get: "All slivers gain 'If a source would deal damage to a Sliver creature, prevent 1 of that damage' "--which (I think) looks like it stacks, making it effectively better than Plated Sliver, since each sliver you control reduces the damage to every/any sliver by 1.

The difference in our interpretation lies in your example #1: there is only one clause on Plated Sliver, and it is a universal. Because of the way that Absorb looks to be worded, however, the Neo-Plated Sliver would have a universal subclause as well, which implies sliver-by-sliver stacking.

Now, it could possibly not stack, but then it would seem foolish to say "all slivers gain", since simply putting "Absorb 1" on the card in question would do exactly the same thing (and it would avoid the question of stacking sliver by sliver). In that case, it's far from broken, and probably not (strictly) better than Plated Sliver. I don't much like this option, however, since it doesn't mesh with the established flavour of slivers, except in a cheating manner (it is a universal effect, and it functions the same way, but it doesn't look the same :( ).

I think that should make more sense. Sorry for the confusion.

Nihil Credo
04-07-2007, 07:28 PM
Ok, there was just a bit of miscommunication. I, unlike you, was assuming that "Absorb 1" means "If a source would deal damage to this, prevent 1 of that damage" - I think it would be kinda silly if they made a keyword that only worked for Slivers.