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Pinder
10-09-2006, 07:28 PM
First let me start off by giving props where props are due; Major props to Maverick676, my initial cohort for concieving the vague idea that would eventually turn into what you see here, and to Volt for his incredible help tuning the deck after it hit the forums, and for his rigorous playtesting against Solidarity and Thresh to provide data that Mav and I didn't have.Oh, and for writing at least half of this goddamn primer. How did I forget that? Also props to xsockmonkeyx, Klaan, Durahan, Hanni, and everyone else that posted in the N&D thread. And super special awesome props to kicks_422, for coming up with the best deck name evar, and to Togit460 for remaining a stalwart fan in spite of the 25 pages of junk that was the N&D threadh. If I forgot anyone(else), flame me and I'll edit this post (again) :tongue:.

With all the rapid changes we've been making to the list recently, the best place to go for new info is honestly the last couple of pages. The list below is a close approximation to where we're at right now, but isn't anything concrete.

Latest Developments:

Pinder needs to update this post more.


Last Updated 2/12/07

//Land (18)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures (19)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

//Spells (23)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

note: In recent pages there have been variations of Slivers including a build with Survival of the Fittest, a 4 color build, and a 3 color UWb build. I'm choosing to focus on UWg for the time being, but if you want to test or tweak those lists, they can be found between pages 35-38. Hopefully I'll narrow that down somewhat and eventually post links, but for now you'll just have to wade through those pages because I'm lazy.

The Lotus Eater
10-09-2006, 07:47 PM
I think Sidewinder Sliver should replace Plated Sliver and/or Talon Sliver.

The great thing about Sidewinder Sliver is that the ability that they grant is not redundant, like almost every other sliver. Flanking stacks. Your attacking creatures that give -2/-2 to any creature that blocks them is great for killing those pesky River Boas and any other regenrater you may come across. Also, Sidewinder Sliver costs one less mana to play than Talon Sliver.

freakish777
10-09-2006, 07:54 PM
Have you considered adding Red (yes I realize the mana base would be atrocious)? Hunter Sliver + Spined Sliver/Sidewinder Sliver are rediculous in aggro matches (Spined Slivers stack as well). I think the strongest reason to include Vial would be to accomodate a more spread out mana base to allow for Hunter Sliver to destroy opposing problem creatures (Specter, Bob, Werebear before Thresh, MMage, most tap creatures before they come out of summoning sickness, etc).

Volt
10-09-2006, 08:07 PM
I think Sidewinder Sliver should replace Plated Sliver and/or Talon Sliver.
Been there, had that conversation. It has been considered and tested. Flanking has no defensive value whatsoever. Plated Sliver blocks Goblin Lackey and lives. Sidewinder Sliver dies to Mogg Fanatic and lets Goblin Lackey through. That's reason enough to play Plated over Sidewinder.



Have you considered adding Red (yes I realize the mana base would be atrocious)?
You should have stopped right there, and said "Oh. Never mind."

The Rack
10-09-2006, 08:42 PM
Great job on the primer by the way. Great deck, great idea, great guys! Have you considered Voidslime in here? Seems out of the blue but I'm curious to see the reactiopns to this.

Tosh
10-09-2006, 09:05 PM
The problem with voidslime is the same as counterspell: the mana. Stifle is great because it costs 1 but counterspell often holds you back from playing better things just because they might play something next turn. This same argument can be applied to voidslime.

Pinder
10-09-2006, 09:25 PM
Klaan is right. The reason we'd run Stifle over Voidslime is because it's cheap and effective. If Stifle costed 2U, you can bet your ass that 1) We probably wouldn't have considered it in the first place and 2) That we'd run Voidslime over it in a second. But since it costs 1, and we already have slightly more free counterspells, Stifle is the goodness.

As to splashing red for Spined/Hunter Sliver, etc. that would be great...if the deck could support it. Right now the most this deck can support is 3 colors on 17 land, and even that's pushing it a fair bit. You'd have to cut a color. Crystalline is UW, so both of those have to stay in, and the only color you can cut reasonably is Green. Of course, this means you can't add Spined Sliver anyway, and IMO Muscle > Hunter (duh). If you look closely, Muscle Sliver is the only green spell in the deck. If he's important enough to splash a third color for, odds are he's sticking around.

As to the Sidewinder vs Plated debate, Sidewinder belongs in a far more aggressive deck than this. Durahan and I drummed up a RGW list a while back during this deck's development to see how it would work, and it was pretty decent. Sidewinder Sliver + Two Headed Sliver + Spined Sliver +Talon Sliver = Your 1/1 walking into a fight with 2 3/3s and living to tell about it. Honestly it was great, but the susceptability to targeted removal and the lack of counter and draw made it not nearly as competitive as CounterSliver.

If you can prove us wrong about the manabase, though, go ahead. We'd love to have a fourth color if we can support it. But for now we'll keep it to UGW.

xsockmonkeyx
10-09-2006, 09:35 PM
I posted this argument pretty late into the N&D thread but Im reposting it here because this issue is still unresolved and under debate.

1) Forest helps, but is not necessary

Obviously, the basic lands are there to fight nonbasic land hate. Anticipating a Wasteland flood, Waste-lock, Back to Basics with no counter or removal, etc, your course of action would to be play basic island, basic plains, then another basic island(hence i run 2 island 1 plains). If you need any futher mana to double cantrip, play a muscle sliver, counterspell, EE for 3, etc, you can just fetch it out or play it from your hand without regret because it is somewhat expendable. When you are in trouble you need blue and white for counter and removal, but not green because this deck doesnt run any green answers.

.:Blue>White>>>Green :: Island>Plains>>>Forest


2) Flooded Strand is your MVP (MVL?)

For all the reasons I just went over Flooded Strand is your MVP. It can fetch any dual (read any color), OR a basic Plains OR a basic Island :smile: Windswept Heath fetches any color, plains, and forest (not not basic island). Polluted Delta gets any dual except Savannah and basic island.

.: Flooded Strand>Windswept Heath>Polluted Delta*

*If I didnt run the Savannah then Polluted Delta>Windswept Heath because it has one more island than plains to target in the deck.


3) 1x Savannah is a relatively powerful singleton.

There have been times (few albeit) when Ive wanted to fetch for a Savannah and if i dont have one in the deck then Im shit out of luck. The 1x is powerful because its only one card and playing that 1 in the deck is kind of like playing ~7 because Heaths and Strands both fetch it. Also, the Savannah is benign. Ive hardly ever top decked it wishing that it was a Trop. Also Savannah is nice with the sideboard as its another white source for your hate, which tends to be on the white/green side.



Here are my lands again for reference:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains

IMO 2 Island + 1 Plains > 1 Island, 1 Plains, and 1 Forest. The Savannah however is still debatable and probably requires more testing before I can give it a definitive thumbs up.


Discuss !!

kicks_422
10-09-2006, 09:36 PM
No love for the guy who named the deck? :frown:

Anyway, I still haven't gotten around to writing the tourney report with this deck... In summary, I beat my Dryad Sligh deck which I lent to a friend, UGW Thresh, R/g Goblins, Blue Stax, and Iggy Pop 2-0 in the finals... I'm having great success with the deck... Too bad I don't really own the cards, I just borrowed them... :tongue:

Volt
10-09-2006, 09:46 PM
Major props to kicks_422 for coming up with the deck name, Meat Hooks, which we all came to love. Twenty lashes with a wet noodle to you, Pinder! :tongue:

Kronicler
10-09-2006, 10:08 PM
Excellent job on this deck to anyone and everyone involved, it looks awesome. Just wondering, has any testing been done against U/G Madness? Where I live U/G Madness has a huge following, and I would love to know how it matches up. Also, has any testing been done in regards to throwing in a Jitte or 2? While I understand that this deck is of a defensive nature I think we all know how useful Jitte can be.

Once again, props to everyone on the awesome deck.

Kronicler

xsockmonkeyx
10-09-2006, 10:13 PM
Also, has any testing been done in regards to throwing in a Jitte or 2? While I understand that this deck is of a defensive nature I think we all know how useful Jitte can be.


Crystal Sliver pretty much kills your equipment plans, thats the only downside to the thing as far as im concerned.

Kronicler
10-09-2006, 10:22 PM
Ah, forgot 'bout that. Guess Jitte will have to sit on the bench for this deck.

DarkAkuma
10-09-2006, 10:32 PM
Personally, I find the attempt to give a old established deck type a new lame name offensive. I've had my Counter Sliver deck for awhile now. Its just a few (better) cards different then yours, and I would hate it if people started calling it that retarded name.

But anyway, to help with the thread. I know from he other thread that Impulse was disscussed some. But you dont have that listed even in the "cards not included" section.

I personaly find i like access to more draw then Brainstorm and Serum Visions. From your build, id probly make the follwing choices.

-4 Stifle
-3 Plated Sliver
-1 Talon Sliver

+4 Meddleing Mage
+4 Impulse

Stifle just doesent need to be main, Plated Sliver is just a weak card takeing up space in the deck, despite being a answer for first turn lackey. And well, Talon Sliver is nice, but I guess just not worth much in multiples (besides just being a sliver). I know people will have a hard time with maindecking mage, cause of the newbie in them saying "But he's not a sliver!". But even if it doesent get the sliver benifits, it doesnt hurt the deck in the slightest, since hes more powerful then. Counter Sliver doesent need to be a theme deck. Winning is more important.

But I guess I should point out, that I dont have Goblins in my meta. Just everything else. So my card choices may reflect that, and infact the choices that have been made by the contributers to this more current build of Counter Sliver, may be more appropriate to a meta with goblins.

Kronicler
10-09-2006, 10:37 PM
I definately disagree and think you need to be a bit less hostile, lol. Pinder already went over how valuable plated and talon sliver are and I think replacing 4 cheep, useful counters with 4 MORE cantrips is a poor choice.

Kronicler

p.s. how in god's name does your meta not have any goblins in it...

Volt
10-09-2006, 10:46 PM
Personaly, I find the attempt to give a old established deck type a new lame name, offencive. I've had my Counter Sliver deck for awhile now. Its just a few (better) cards different then yours, and I would hate it if people started calling it that retarded name.

But anyway, to help with the thread. I know from he other thread that Impulse was disscussed some. But you dont have that listed even in the "cards not included" section.

I personaly find i like access to more draw then Brainstorm and Serum Visions. From your build, id probly make the follwing choices.

-4 Stifle
-3 Plated Sliver
-1 Talon Sliver

+4 Meddleing Mage
+4 Impulse

Stifle just doesent need to be main, Plated Sliver is just a weak card takeing up space in the deck, despite being a answer for first turn lackey. And well, Talon Sliver is nice, but I guess just not worth much in multiples (besides just being a sliver). I know people will have a hard time with maindecking mage, cause of the newbie in them saying "But he's not a sliver!". But even if it doesent get the sliver benifits, it doesnt hurt the deck in the slightest, since hes more powerful then. Counter Sliver doesent need to be a theme deck. Winning is more important.

But I guess I should point out, that I dont have Goblins in my meta. Just everything else. So my card choices may reflect that, and infact the choices that have been made by the contributers to this more current build of Counter Sliver, may be more appropriate to a meta with goblins.


Thanks for your comments, I guess.

You're going to have a hard time talking us into taking Stifle completely out. It's just so helpful in so many ways. Sometimes you win a game simply by stifling a fetch-land on the first or second turn. We've been playing with them in this deck for quite a while now, and we love them. Every time we even cut them to 3, we end up going back up to 4.

While Plated Sliver is kind of meh by itself, it becomes quite good in combination with other slivers. And it's not just good against Goblins. 1st turn Plated, 2nd turn Muscle is a pretty decent clock against combo. Also, once you have a couple of other slivers in play, Plated Sliver becomes a better topdeck than most of the other slivers, because it only costs 1, yet comes into play with the same P/T and abilities as all the other slivers already in play (except -1/-1 compared to Crystalline).

Togit460
10-09-2006, 11:12 PM
Not that I contributed a ton to the discussion, but I've watched and read every page and am even working on memorization. Put me in the Huge Fan section please Pinder!

Also congratulations on your child finally taking it's first steps into the legacy meta. The question is will people play it enough to move it from this forum up to LMF?

freakish777
10-09-2006, 11:34 PM
//Land
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

//Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Hunter Sliver
2 Spined Sliver/Sidewinder Sliver

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
2 Aether Vial
3 Engineered Explosives


This essentially was what I was thinking with the red splash for Hunter Sliver. Hunter Sliver shifts the focus off of flying with Winged Sliver in the aggro match, and onto killing your opponents creatures. +1 land and +2 Vials smooth out the deck being able to hit the colors its needs as well as shifting around the fetches to include Wooded's.

Again, this is just a "did you consider this" suggestion, not a "this way is totally optimal you should listen to me." Having played with Hunter Sliver, I know that most aggro player's point their removal at Muscle Sliver and then it (assuming Crystalline isn't down) due to it creating absurdly one sided positions.

You shouldn't cut Blue Green or White as Crystalline forces blue and white and Muscle forces green (and those are the 2 best slivers in the game). I just think that a red splash would be worthwhile regardless of stretching the mana base. Vial here isn't about explosiveness (as it is in Goblins, we have no Ringleader), it's about color fixing, uncounterability, and the occassional early advantages it can create (either through you're opponent pitching FoW or due to getting hands that allow you to drop two 2cc slivers in back to back turns while still optimizing BStorm and playing Serum Visions).

Bardo
10-09-2006, 11:37 PM
FYI. (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30502.0) Entries are due by this Friday. 10 am, Pacific Time.

Volt
10-09-2006, 11:47 PM
FYI. (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30502.0) Entries are due by this Friday. 10 am, Pacific Time.

Hmm. Thanks, Bardo. I think I see a submission coming your way. Pinder?

Six
Five
Four
Default

Pinder
10-09-2006, 11:50 PM
Um, yeah.

Bongo
10-10-2006, 08:35 AM
Surprisingly good deck!

I'm having good results with your posted list. However, there is one point I want to discuss some more: Aether Vial.

Your reasoning for its exclusion are good, but I'd like you to elaborate a bit more.
I have been also testing your version with 4 Aether Vials thrown in, and it has been really golden.

While Aether Vial doesn't have the same power as in Goblins, it has multiple advantages that are hard to ignore:

1) It fixes your mana in a three-color deck. Your manabase is very good, but Wasteland sometimes throws a huge wrench in your gameplan. Vial can circumvent this.

2) It makes your creatures uncounterable (which I have found to be huge in the Threshold matchup) and gives pseudo-haste.

3) You can make some pretty nasty combat tricks with it.

4) It is a big counter target, opponents will often waste a Force for it first turn.

5) It frees up your mana, so you can keep it open to counter spells.

6) If you suspect your opponent boarding in Needle, you can board it out to create dead-cards. You can do this because it is less reliant on Vial than Goblins.


I think the positive points outweigh the negative ones by far. Also, Needle can be handled by Explosives or Disenchant (you can even counter it).

Eldariel
10-10-2006, 09:20 AM
I find it specifically worth noting that in a deck like Slivers, Vial's power is amplified by the variety of effects your Slivers offer; +1/+1 with a Vial at 2 might make opponent VERY reluctant to block your 2/2 with theirs, a Vial at 2 with the danger of Hibernation or Crystalline makes opponent consider twice about their removal and when calculating racing sitiuation, they might have difficulties taking that EoT Winged into account and might not stay back to block even if they should. I think those factors make it really potent here, even though the manacost-scaling power isn't quite what it is in Goblins.

Bongo
10-10-2006, 11:50 AM
No need to be so harsh, I was merely giving a suggestion.


The argument that a Vial list didn't too well in the past is not a valid argument for its exclusion. I can understand why Vial isn't included, but it would be cool if you could give more rational arguments as to why it is suboptimal.

Multiple Aether Vials can be shuffled back via Brainstorm/Fetch, so that point is kinda moot.

The combat tricks can't be underestimated, but the real selling point of Vial are the uncounterability and the relief on your mana. The fact that you can keep your mana open for countering and digging is huge.
I can't provide conclusive results as I haven't played as many games yet, but so far, Vial really shines in the Gro matchup and turned it from even to favorable.
Needle isn't as bad as it is against Goblins, because you're far less reliant on it. Also, you can simply counter/disenchant it if you really want that Vial.

So far, I have found that Vial fits very well into the gameplan of CounterSlivers.

Volt
10-10-2006, 12:14 PM
No need to be so harsh, I was merely giving a suggestion.


The argument that a Vial list didn't too well in the past is not a valid argument for its exclusion. I can understand why Vial isn't included, but it would be cool if you could give more rational arguments as to why it is suboptimal.

Multiple Aether Vials can be shuffled back via Brainstorm/Fetch, so that point is kinda moot.

The combat tricks can't be underestimated, but the real selling point of Vial are the uncounterability and the relief on your mana. The fact that you can keep your mana open for countering and digging is huge.
I can't provide conclusive results as I haven't played as many games yet, but so far, Vial really shines in the Gro matchup and turned it from even to favorable.
Needle isn't as bad as it is against Goblins, because you're far less reliant on it. Also, you can simply counter/disenchant it if you really want that Vial.

So far, I have found that Vial fits very well into the gameplan of CounterSlivers.

How did your response get inserted before my post? Weird. Anyways...

I didn't mean to seem harsh. I'm just trying to convey that Aether Vial has been considered, tested, and discarded. In fact, it has never really been successful in a CounterSliver deck, despite people's dogged insistence on playing it in pretty much every CounterSliver deck built since 2004.

I will concede that Gro might be one of the matchups mildly improved by adding Aether Vial. That's the only Tier 1 matchup where I will make that concession. Against Goblins, you are often spending your first turn responding to a Lackey, stifling a Wasteland, cantripping to dig for Crystalline Sliver or land, or whatever. After the 1st turn, playing Aether Vial is usually not a very good play. Against combo, I would rather be playing a Plated Sliver, cantripping on the 1st turn, or perhaps stifling one of their fetch-lands.

Also, Aether Vial is a terrible top-deck.

Eldariel
10-10-2006, 12:24 PM
Another weird thing is that my post wasn't reported as 'the next post' in the thread or didn't appear in the post-count, but clearly is on the thread...


I can kinda see that the deck doesn't want cards that do nothing by themselves. Vial is not a threat (against decks without counters anyways) nor an answer, it's an enabler, so it raises the number of cards that do nothing by themselves in the deck (same problem as Pikula.dec has, it plays 26 enablers and only 34 business spells and tries to do insanely much with those 34 spells too) and is essentially a land for most intents and purposes, but can't sub for lands as it doesn't actually tap for mana.

Durahan
10-10-2006, 12:29 PM
I'm also going to point out that Aether Vial isn't so hot in a deck where you're popping engineered explosives for 1 most of the time. Also, we only run 16 creatures. I wouldn't want to take out engineered explosives for aether vials either. I don't think using aether vial will be enough of an advantage over casting the slivers in most matchups to warrant taking something else out for them. And, as Volt pointed out, it's a terrible topdeck.

n00bas4urus_r3x
10-10-2006, 01:35 PM
Just looking at the deck list, the build is more of a control style, and I don't think aether vial will add to the deck's win percentage substantially. If you add vials, people will needle engineered explosives first over vial, to protect their needles. Although the this leaves vials free to be used, the deck has now lost a good selective board sweeper, and this then leaves your opponent open to put a needle on the vial if they need to. In a deck with the ability to select to some extent what your opponent plays, the added speed of vial isn't needed, because you will often be winning a game under your conditions of play.

Pinder
10-10-2006, 01:48 PM
Personaly, I find the attempt to give a old established deck type a new lame name, offencive.

Personally, I find your inability to correctly spell 'personally' and 'offensive', coupled with your innapropriate use of a comma before the word 'offensive' amusing. This deck is called MeatHooks. You can also call it CounterSliver if you want to, we don't mind. But stop insulting the name.

Major props to kicks_422 for the name and togit460 for nearly memorizing the N&D thread. Major slops to the boards post editing function, for processing endlessly every time I hit 'save'. :tongue:

And on to the Aether Vial discussion. Yeah, it makes your dudes uncounterable. Yeah, it makes them instant speed. Yeah, it makes them free. Yeah, it's good. If you have slivers in your hand. With only 16 maindeck, my main frustration with Vial is that in quite a few games, I would Vial in a couple of Slivers to do spiffy things, then I would sit there until I find another Sliver to Vial in. And most of the time, it was a Sliver I had the mana for anyway. Vial has a lot of novelty appeal, but once the novelty wears off it's not that spectacular. We simply don't have a high enough threat density to make it truly great.

If you wanted to cut daze for Counterspell, and then use Vial to play your Slivers so you could hold mana open for your spiffy new hard counters, I can see Vial being a little more useful than it is now. A little. But honestly, what would you cut for Vial?

Now, on to Volt's neverending last post!

Volt
10-10-2006, 01:49 PM
Just looking at the deck list, the build is more of a control style, and I don't think aether vial will add to the deck's win percentage substantially. If you add vials, people will needle engineered explosives first over vial, to protect their needles. Although the this leaves vials free to be used, the deck has now lost a good selective board sweeper, and this then leaves your opponent open to put a needle on the vial if they need to. In a deck with the ability to select to some extent what your opponent plays, the added speed of vial isn't needed, because you will often be winning a game under your conditions of play.

Those are good observations, especially the one about this deck having "more of a control style." While this is definitely an aggro-control deck, it is a bit slower than most other aggro-control decks. Unless you are playing against a true control deck, you are usually the control. A point that some people miss is that the slivers themselves act as a form of control and even virtual card advantage (Crystalline Sliver makes their targeted removal useless). In the early stages of the game, you often don't do much attacking. You just keep playing out slivers - hopefully of varying types - until you have a clear advantage, and then you start swinging.

Maverick676
10-10-2006, 02:28 PM
Wow its great to finally see this thing in open HURRAY.

As to aether vial's exclusion from the deck. Vial was thoroughly tested in my intial build and was dismissed because of the previously stated reasons. Those being that it is generally too slow since all of the decks creatures are costed under two mana, it is a terrible topdeck, does nothing by itself, and would take the spot of a much more useful card.

EDIT: LOL Volt's post keeps getting pushed down.

Tosh
10-10-2006, 03:45 PM
I know why it keeps getting pushed down: look at the post time - 7:28 PM. You must be a time-traveler or something....

Pinder
10-10-2006, 04:18 PM
The only way I can see Aether Vial being truly useful is if we ran more hard counters and needed to keep mana open for them. If someone wanted to take out Daze for Counterspell and find something to cut for Aether Vial, and then systematically prove that it is significantly better than running Daze + whatever card (probably Stifle, as the people here haven't realized how awesome it is) in a majority of matchups, then you might have something truly compelling. Hell, if you wanted to you could cut Daze for Voidslime and Stifle for Aether Vial, and you'd still have another hard counter and a way to counter abilities, but I can tell you right now that that wouldn't be nearly as potent as the Daze and Stifle combination, simply because it's a lot slower, and therefore not as great in the early game.

Volt
10-10-2006, 04:42 PM
Yeah, I'm done talking about Aether Vial. Moving on...

I think it bears mentioning that if you're going into a metagame where you expect a fair amount of combo and/or control, it is worth considering fitting a couple of Counterspells into the deck. You could cut a Daze and an Engineered Explosives to make room.

Also, there are different directions you can go with the sideboard. Lately, I've been running the following:

4 Hydroblast
4 Meddling Mage
4 Serenity
3 Tormod's Crypt

Although Goblins is a positive matchup before sideboarding, Sligh and Burn are somewhat problematic. Hydroblast (or BEB) helps shore up those matchups. And it never hurts to have extra insurance against a deck like Goblins, which you're likely to run into multiple times in a large tourney.

Serenity is there to crush stuff like rAffinity, Enchantress, and Stax-type decks, and just generally clear the board of any and all equipment and enchantments that may be annoying you.

DarkAkuma
10-10-2006, 05:45 PM
Fixed my previous post some to make the Grammar Nazi happy.

Anyway. I tried vial in my Counter Sliver build several months ago, and i loved it. But i still agree with the major contributer's to this thread, in that it shouldnt be included.

It doesnt do anything by itself. You would have to take out some creatures, draw or control to include it, all of which are more helpful. Realy, you would have to adjust alot of the deck make better use of the vials. Like more counters, less lands, etc. So much so, that it would be a different deck. Which is why I didnt play vials for very long, cause I liked the deck the way it was.

So for the sake of these guys sanity, if you want to play vial in counter sliver, post it as a seperate deck type in the new and development forum. Like:

"[Deck] Vial Sliver (a.k.a. Hooked Meat.dec)"

or something...

Volt
10-10-2006, 10:28 PM
[EDIT: Due to wacky server shenanigans, this post was time-stamped incorrectly. It should be post #24. It would be swell if one of the moderators would fix this.]

Ever since Aether Vial was printed, every Counter Sliver deck ever posted on the net or played at a tournament has included it. Yet none of those decks has ever done squat or been considered more than a Tier 3 "fun" deck, with the exception of Noah Freed's deck, which only ran 2 (!) Aether Vials. Our deck beats every deck currently considered Tier 1 (Thresh is listed as an "even" matchup, but in reality, it's mildly positive for CounterSliver), and crushes most randomness, yet people still keep wanting to come back to Aether Vial.

Yes, Aether Vial allows you play some nifty tricks, and may even slightly improve a couple of matchups. Note the word "slightly." Overall, though, it just adds more randomness to the deck, which means more mulligans and more hands that just crap out on you. You only have 16 slivers in the deck, and that's assuming you don't take 1 or 2 out to make room for the Aether Vials (what are you going to take out, btw? Let me guess, Stifles. That's a non-starter). A lot of times, Aether Vial is going to be sitting around doing nothing. Sometimes, you'll have 2 or 3 Aether Vials sitting around doing pretty much nothing, and that's really annoying. And those combat tricks that people keep mentioning really don't amount to much. You don't need combat tricks to win. Just play out your slivers until you have a dominating position, and then win! And, yes, by playing Aether Vial, you're making your opponents Pithing Needles good. Bardo's Thresh list runs 2 maindeck Pithing Needles. Affinity decks run maindeck Pithing Needles. And if you're so willing to side out the Aether Vials in anticipation of your opponent possibly siding in Pithing Needles, may I suggest that the Aether Vials really didn't need to be in there in the first place?

At this point, someone is going to have to really convince us that Aether Vial deserves a spot in the deck. That means a rigorously play-tested deck list with statistically significant game results against a variety of Tier 1-2 decks.

Pinder
10-10-2006, 10:43 PM
Fixed my previous post some to make the Grammar Nazi happy.


Thanks. Heil Grammar!

On that note, it wasn't the grammar I didn't like, it was your attitude towards the deck name. But since you agree with us on Aether Vial, I can let it slide :tongue:.

As to what Volt mentioned about the sideboard, there are enough possible includes that it's hard to make a 'standard version'. You don't have to run the board we stuck up there if it doesn't fit your meta, that board is specifically geared to beat the Tier 1 consistently. If you see other decks in your meta, feel free to run other cards.

As to shoring up the matchup against Burn, though, I think that Disrupt might be even better than BEB here, just because it cantrips. Of course, it's not a hard counter, and I'm not sure how often Burn taps out for its spells, but it draws you card, which is worth noting. Disrupt is also a great SB option against mass removal (Wog et al) and discard (Hymn? Nah, I'll draw a card) because they typically tap out for those more often than Burn taps out for anything.

Also on the Burn matchup, Mav and I have been discussing Vitcual Sliver as a board option against Burn. We've found that when Burn ever beats us, it usually does so a turn before we win. The lifegain on Victual Sliver is sort of meh on its own, but against Burn it would provide you with that extra turn to seal the win. Also, it's a 2/2 body for 2 mana, which helps speed up your clock against Burn by a fair amount. You can side out Talon/Winged Sliver for them, as niether First Strike or Flying is very relevant against Burn.

EDIT: Whoa! This post is after Volt's post! I certainly didn't expect that.

Maverick676
10-12-2006, 05:22 PM
I still think our best bet against burn is worship lock, trying to race them using victual sliver is just an inferior way to beat them.

On a seperate topic, what does everyone think of harmonic sliver from timespiral? It seems like definite sideboard material.

for reference:

1GW
Harmonic Sliver
All slivers have "when this creature comes into play destroy target artifact or enchantment"
1/1

At worst It's a sex monkey on crack, since by the time we play it muscle will probably be already out, not to mention it turns all of our slivers into sorcery speed disenchants. It seems like it could at least replace disenchant in the board (if your running it).

Volt
10-12-2006, 05:29 PM
Harmonic Sliver is a definite sideboard inclusion, especially since it triggers itself when it comes into play. And it stacks! I love the fact it gets around Chalice: 0-2. It might be worth running a couple in the maindeck, and a couple more in the sideboard.

Also, I think the Engineered Explosives can go away, since their main purpose was to blow up Chalices and Aether Vials, and now we have Harmonic Sliver to do that.

Maverick676
10-12-2006, 06:33 PM
Harmonic in the main is a real interesting idea, I think it could easily take the place of explosives. Being that explosives main job is to handle problem artifacts and enchantments.

As for going up to 18 land, I don't think it is really necessary, but that's just from my experience. I rarely seem to get manascrewed with this deck. If anything I get mana flooded more often than not (it's weird I know).

Just one quick question about the board. Why hydroblast? gobs is by far our best matchup, so why is that thing taking up space? If it's in there for the burn matchup worship would be alot better, against gobs and burn.

Volt
10-12-2006, 06:43 PM
.

Pinder
10-12-2006, 11:28 PM
Harmonic in the main is a real interesting idea, I think it could easily take the place of explosives. Being that explosives main job is to handle problem artifacts and enchantments.

Mav, did you start smoking crack again? I thought the intervention took care of that :tongue:.

Honestly though, Harmonic in the main? Yeah, I can see that. Adding another land to support it? Okay. In place of Engineered Explosives? No. Fucking. Way.

Sure, EE is mostly great against our problem enchantments and artifacts, but that's just because we have an answer for most other things, so those are what we use it on most often. Truth is, EE is great against everything. It's like saying that Wrath of God is really great against Homarids.

My main point here is that EE doesn't just deal with Artifacts and Enchantments, it deals with creatures, too. I like that.

Also, having access to some form of board sweep, rather than just targeted removal, is sort of nice. Harmonic Sliver doesn't kill a Mongoose.

Well, unless it's a 3/3 First Striker, I guess. I'm not arguing that Harmonics are bad, in fact they take care of a lot of things (Worship and Leyline specifically) that EE can't in a 3 color deck. And it certainly is a lot more permanent of an answer than Chain of Vapor.

I think that fitting 2 Harmonics in is a step in the right direction. But I would cut a Stifle and 1 EE for 2, and leave the land at 17 (I always draw more than enough anyway :laugh:). I'd still like to have EE for the many situations in which it is useful, though.

Volt
10-13-2006, 02:24 AM
I've been doing some playtesting with a couple of Harmonic Slivers in the deck. They're pretty sweet, and I think we definitely need to make room for them. I would suggest 2 maindeck, and 2 more in the sideboard.

Regarding Engineered Explosives... Keep a couple in, if you want. Personally, I don't really think they're necessary. Like I said before, their main purpose in this deck was to kill Chalices and Aether Vials. Harmonic Sliver performs those functions admirably, without the drawback of being made useless by a single Pithing Needle, I might add. Blowing up Mongeese and other 1cc critters is nice, but not something this deck generally needs to worry about doing. And let's face it... pretty rarely do you cast EE with more than 1 counter.

Just my 2 cents.

Maverick676
10-13-2006, 02:21 PM
Regarding EE, Volt is right. What besides mongoose do we usually EE for? Vials, Worship, chalice ect. So harmonic might actually be a better answer to run in the main. I don't know if I want to do a strait swap for EE since that card is so freakin sweet, I would like to see it stay in the list somewhere.

Pinder
10-13-2006, 02:26 PM
I've done some goldfishing, and I suppose you're right. Harmonic Sliver is pretty damn good in the main. The best part about it, is that it turns all of your slivers into sorcery speed disenchants, which means that you have disenchants ranging in cost from 1 to 3. this makes it virtually impossible for them to keep Chalices on the table.

I'm still not sure about taking EE completely out of the main, but I will concede that we should definitely do some testing with sans-EE, post-Harmonic builds to see how they preform since, although it has a variety of uses, we mainly have EE there to deal with artifacts and enchantments.

The best part about Harmonic Sliver though? It kills Engineered Plague, even if it dies to it. On that note, if we take EE out, we might consider pushing Harmonics to a 3-of. Thoughts?

Maverick676
10-13-2006, 02:34 PM
Agreed, if EE isn't in the main then Harmonic Sliver would need to be a three of.

Pinder
10-13-2006, 02:37 PM
WEIRD RETROACTIVE EDIT: So apparently the edit down here was on the second version of a double post of my last post, so I'll just refer you to that post to read what was originally this post, because they're the same thing.

EDIT: So, I did a little (very little) critical thinking, and here's what I've come up with:

Matchups worsened by switching out EE for Harmonics:
Thresh (but you can still kill Worship, so it's not that bad)
Crazy infinite token decks

Matchups improved by switching out EE for Harmonics:
Faerie Stompy
Angel Stompy
WW Equip
Enchantress
Wildfire
Stax
EBA

And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

There are only two downsides to Harmonics that I can think of, those being the 'you have to kill an artifact or enchantment' clause, making them worse in conjuction with our own Worships/Needles etc, and the fact that cutting EE for them will give us only 4 slots of creature removal in the deck, those being Swords to Plowshares. I'm not sure the second one matters too much, as we generally have the advantage when it comes to creatures, but 4 still seems a little low.

Oh, and Mav, I like your new sig. Context is for sissies :tongue:

Volt
10-13-2006, 02:55 PM
Yeah, I can totally see putting 3 Harmonics in the main. Its a very strong addition to the deck. I would definitely recommend a full complement of 4 between the maindeck and sideboard. This is going to turn some of our iffy matchups into positive matchups. I guess Time Spiral came through with a Legacy-worthy sliver after all.

Pinder
10-13-2006, 03:38 PM
Well, I've always contended that Harmonic and Sidewinder both are Legacy-worthy, just not in this deck. I suppose I was wrong about Harmonic though. My first thoughts were that it was bad because it was a 1/1 for three that happens to kill an artiffact or enchanment, but I've revised my opinions since then because it's usually more like a 3/4 untargetable first striking flyer for three that happens to make all of your Slivers kill artifacts and enchantments. And stacks. Which is pretty sweet.

I do think that if we cut EE for it though, it should at least stay in the board. There's something to be said for the fact that it doesn't target. Untargeted removal is still good, especially when it sweeps.

xsockmonkeyx
10-13-2006, 05:15 PM
It certainly helps the Stax matchup, which is a nightmare btw. Untargeted non-discriminant removal + Chalice, Tangle Wire, 3 Sphere, etc. = not fun.

Pinder
10-14-2006, 01:49 AM
I think that it greatly inproves enough matchups that it doesn't matter than it won't kill a Mongoose. As far as utility is concerned, Harmonics kick EE's ass.

Volt
10-14-2006, 02:50 PM
I think that it greatly inproves enough matchups that it doesn't matter than it won't kill a Mongoose. As far as utility is concerned, Harmonics kick EE's ass.
Yeah, I had a chance to play with them at my local tourney last night. They came in handy a number of times.

Btw, I went 3-0, beating Dryad Sligh, RUW Scepter Control, and Sneak Attack. A lot of random decks were there last night. I dropped before the 4th round because my potential opponents were just starting their 3rd round when I finished my 3rd round, and I wanted to get home to watch Battlestar Galactica. Best sci-fi show ever, btw.

Pinder
10-14-2006, 03:26 PM
Yeah, I had a chance to play with them at my local tourney last night. They came in handy a number of times.

Btw, I went 3-0, beating Dryad Sligh, RUW Scepter Control, and Sneak Attack. A lot of random decks were there last night. I dropped before the 4th round because my potential opponents were just starting their 3rd round when I finished my 3rd round, and I wanted to get home to watch Battlestar Galactica. Best sci-fi show ever, btw.

Except for Firefly, of course. It died before its time.....why!?!?!?!?!

Anyway, last night was Time Spiral Sealed at my tourney, so I didn't get to play MeatHooks, but I did crack a lot of Slivers. Sedge Sliver + Might Sliver + Bonesplitter Sliver = 7/5 beat sticks that regenerate for B. It was great. Still went 2-2, though :(. I played Durahan in the second round, and drew land like a champ (I was still only running 17 land, and I managed to draw it for ten turns in a row. WTF?), and I played Mav in the third. I had Sedge, Might, and Bonsplitter as well was recurring 3/3 Wurms from Wurmcalling and Saprolings from my 2 Thallid Shell Dwellers, and 2 Aetherflame Walls to block his Shadoow guys. He had Icatian Crier tokens out the wazzu, as well as first striking in the form of Tividar and Nightshade Assasin. We sat there and drew cards and passed turns for like a half hour, and then he played Ixidron. The bastard. Then he dropped Dralnu in game two and got to use all his removal twice, while I got mana screwed. Bah.

I did win a cool MTG backpack as a door prize, though :laugh:.

Wow, I managed to type a whole paragraph without contributing anything. Go me.

EDIT: On to contributing something, though. I tested Harmonics in the main last night with Mav, Durahan et al and I must say that I'm having mixed feelings about them. Don't get me wrong, they're great and I think that having some in the main is a good idea, but there were times were I had a Harmonic and really wished that it was an Enigneered Explosives. Harmonic shores up a lot of our matches (AS, FS, rAffinity, Enchantress, etc.), but it's completely useless (well, not completely, as it's still a Sliver) in a lot of other matchups. With that in mind, what do you think about running both? We could cut a Stifle to make room for each of them as a 2-of. With 3 Harmonics, I was seeing it too often in my opening hand, so Volt might have been right the first time with 2. Also, we can still use EEs against a majority of problem enchantments and artifacts as well, so we're not really losing too much utility there. It brings our threat count up to a robust 18, and gives us a form of non-targeted board removal, which I think it's important that we have.

Tell me what you think.

Volt
10-15-2006, 03:57 PM
EDIT: On to contributing something, though. I tested Harmonics in the main last night with Mav, Durahan et al and I must say that I'm having mixed feelings about them. Don't get me wrong, they're great and I think that having some in the main is a good idea, but there were times were I had a Harmonic and really wished that it was an Enigneered Explosives. Harmonic shores up a lot of our matches (AS, FS, rAffinity, Enchantress, etc.), but it's completely useless (well, not completely, as it's still a Sliver) in a lot of other matchups. With that in mind, what do you think about running both? We could cut a Stifle to make room for each of them as a 2-of. With 3 Harmonics, I was seeing it too often in my opening hand, so Volt might have been right the first time with 2. Also, we can still use EEs against a majority of problem enchantments and artifacts as well, so we're not really losing too much utility there. It brings our threat count up to a robust 18, and gives us a form of non-targeted board removal, which I think it's important that we have.

Upon further play-testing, I've been having mixed results with Harmonic Sliver, as well. It's either really good, or fairly poor. You know, when I was doing my initial play-testing with Harmonic Sliver, I was using proxies because I didn't have any real ones, and I was thinking it was a 2/2. Yeah, I'm an idiot. As a 1/1, it becomes considerably less attractive, although still pretty damn useful against some decks. This may seem pretty random, but I think I'm going to try playing 2 EE + 1 Harmonic maindeck. All 3 cards serve roughly the same purpose, but this way you won't ever draw more than 1 Harmonic in the matchups where it's bad. And you can side in 2-3 more in the matchups where it's really good. I dunno, though. We're going to have to do a lot of playtesting to figure out what the right mix is.

Pinder
10-15-2006, 11:13 PM
I think that 2-2 would be a much better mix than 2-1, honestly. You don't want to see nothing but Harmonics, but you do want to draw them at some point. This might be different for you if you still insist on running 1 maindeck Call, but that could just as easily be another Harmonic. I think 2 is the right number here because we do want to see them, we just don't want to see them all the time.

Togit460
10-15-2006, 11:34 PM
It seems that Harmonic Sliver is only shoring up matches that we should either already be winning or aren't decent enough decks to be competing in the tournament with us. I've fallen in love with engineered explosives again though so my judgement is a little biased.

Pinder
10-16-2006, 01:16 AM
It seems that Harmonic Sliver is only shoring up matches that we should either already be winning or aren't decent enough decks to be competing in the tournament with us. I've fallen in love with engineered explosives again though so my judgement is a little biased.

Harmonic is a 'win more' in any mathcup we're already winning ("I kill Aether Vial with Harmonic, whoopdee-fucking-doo"), but it honestly helps a ton in matchups that aren't so favored for us. Stax, which is a total nightmare for us usually, is actually a pretty decent matchup for us with Harmonics in the main. And it can never hurt to up our threat count to 18.Harmonic is usually a 3 mana 2/3 untargetable first striking beat stick, which is still great even if it doesn't kill something relevant when it hits the table. When it does kill something relevant, then it's fantastic.

You're probably right about it not helping out a ton in the Tier 1 (it does kill Worship, though), but we'd already own the format if all anyone ever saw was Tier 1 in any tournament. Harmonic is extra insurance to make sure that we don't get handed some random match loss because of Rogue.dec or something. And I'm still planning on running EE in the main as well as Harmonic, anyway.

Jankwolf
10-16-2006, 02:19 AM
Hey Mav/Pinder....i dont know if this has been covered in your thread...(due to the obsessive badgering about the vial topic i skipped a page ahead...) But in the unlikley event...What would slivers do against mono-black...to be more specific what would it do vs. discard and land destruction...Just a thought...i know it doesnt go with the current topic but i just gotta know...THx much...Skylar....

xsockmonkeyx
10-16-2006, 02:26 AM
Based on our testing results i think Volt and I have decided that black control/sui is tough. Volt put it best, "Pretty much any deck with swamps in it is a bad matchup for this deck".

Pinder
10-16-2006, 01:45 PM
I'm going to have to agree with the monkey here. Honestly, our deck isn't really geared to handle much in terms of discard, and our mana base is fragile enough that if you have a way to destroy basic lands, we're toast. Deadguy certainly isn't too favorable for us for those reasons, and quite frankly, Truffle Shuffle is an aboslute nightmare. A deck that packs as much board sweep as we do counterspells, as well as a healthy discard suite and beat sticks that are immune to our removal and keep coming back, is just bad for us. And don't even get me started on Haunting Echoes.

In short, since this deck doesn't generate raw card advantage (it mostly just avoids disadvantage by maintaining card parity and quality), anything that causes us to lose card parity = card disadvantage. And that's really bad for us, because once we start losing advantage, we have few ways to get it back.

Maverick676
10-16-2006, 10:54 PM
I have to disagree with you guys on this one. In my testing, albeit limited, black discard decks are not as tough as you guys say. The key to the matchup is to make sure that hymn doesn't resolve. If you can get crystaline and another sliver out you will probably win. If they run diabolic edict make sure to play a winged sliver or a plated sliver before you play your crystaline.

I will agree however that truffle shuffle is an absolute nightmare.

Volt
10-17-2006, 06:23 PM
Based on our testing results i think Volt and I have decided that black control/sui is tough. Volt put it best, "Pretty much any deck with swamps in it is a bad matchup for this deck".

I think what I said is that pretty much any deck with swamps is a "tough" matchup for this deck. I think Deadguy is about 50/50, and as you and Mav have noted, depends largely on whether you can avoid getting Hymned in the first couple of turns.

Any deck with Pernicious Deed in it is almost automatically a bad matchup, because those decks usually have discard effects as well, which means they can pick the Stifles and/or counterspells out of your hand, and then Deed your slivers away. This is a good example of where Pithing Needle has it all over Stifle. They usually have ways of dealing with Needle, too, but at least it will slow them down.

Btw, have you guys been getting frustrated at all with the limited ability to dig through the deck for whatever card you need? I've been finding that to be a problem at times, so I'm currently play-testing a new version with 4 Sleight of Hand (for a total of 12 cantrips). I considered Impulse (which I know Pinder likes), but I decided to go with SoH because it gives you another way to dig out of one-land opening hands. I also swapped out the Stifles for Pithing Needles (I know; I keep going back and forth on those 2 cards). I love Stifle, but I find that I'm often tapped out when I want to cast it, which is pretty annoying. So far, I'm enjoying the new build, as it seems to run more smoothly. Btw, I moved the Harmonic Slivers to the sideboard, as they obviously don't play nice with Pithing Needle.

One other thing... I highly recommend finding room for a couple of Armageddons in the sideboard. I've found them to be quite valuable.

Jankwolf
10-17-2006, 07:15 PM
I have to disagree with you guys on this one. In my testing, albeit limited, black discard decks are not as tough as you guys say. The key to the matchup is to make sure that hymn doesn't resolve. If you can get crystaline and another sliver out you will probably win. If they run diabolic edict make sure to play a winged sliver or a plated sliver before you play your crystaline.

I will agree however that truffle shuffle is an absolute nightmare.

Yeah um...ONE WORD....Desolation...Icequake...Rancid earth....++++Discard++++....Dude...ive been play testing against your build...and im finding that i dont have a problem with it at all.....ld is bad for you guys...and on top of that discard??? I think that black will cause you more problems than bowflex can resolve.....

Volt
10-17-2006, 07:35 PM
Yeah um...ONE WORD....Desolation...Icequake...Rancid earth....++++Discard++++....Dude...ive been play testing against your build...and im finding that i dont have a problem with it at all.....ld is bad for you guys...and on top of that discard??? I think that black will cause you more problems than bowflex can resolve.....
The next time I run into a deck running Desolation, Icequake, and Rancid Earth will be the first time.

Pinder
10-17-2006, 10:56 PM
The next time I run into a deck running Desolation, Icequake, and Rancid Earth will be the first time.

The man speaks truth. And odds are that if we're in the same tournament with you, if we don't get paired in the first round, you'll get eaten by Goblins or Thresh and we won't ever see you.

As to the changes Volt is making, they're pretty radical. I, for one, would like to keep Stifle in the main, although I wouldn't mind the move to 12 cantrips. 12 might prove to be a little excessive, but we can test it. As for Needle in the MD, I can see that, but perhaps as a 2-of alongside Stifle. If we move to 12 cantrips, we shouldn't have trouble finding them. The only problem is the same problem we've always had: What in the unholy fuck are we gonna take out? We can't cut any of the land or the Slivers we have now (although I can see pushing Harmonics strictly into the sideboard). Daze is solid, FoW is a must. Cutting Brainstorm or Serum Visions for more inefficient cantrips would be stupid. And we can't cut StP, because it's fucking StP, not to mention our only form of removal. So, given that we only have room for 27 spells, this leaves us with 7 negotiable slots (note that yes, Stifle is included here). So the only spells we can concievably cut are Stifle and EE. I personally don't think either of them should go, but we can always test it, right?

xsockmonkeyx
10-17-2006, 11:17 PM
As to the changes Volt is making, they're pretty radical. I, for one, would like to keep Stifle in the main, although I wouldn't mind the move to 12 cantrips. 12 might prove to be a little excessive, but we can test it. As for Needle in the MD, I can see that, but perhaps as a 2-of alongside Stifle. If we move to 12 cantrips, we shouldn't have trouble finding them. The only problem is the same problem we've always had: What in the unholy fuck are we gonna take out? We can't cut any of the land or the Slivers we have now (although I can see pushing Harmonics strictly into the sideboard). Daze is solid, FoW is a must. Cutting Brainstorm or Serum Visions for more inefficient cantrips would be stupid. And we can't cut StP, because it's fucking StP, not to mention our only form of removal. So, given that we only have room for 27 spells, this leaves us with 7 negotiable slots (note that yes, Stifle is included here). So the only spells we can concievably cut are Stifle and EE. I personally don't think either of them should go, but we can always test it, right?


Actually, if your going to up the cantrip count then the number of lands can be decreased opening up a few slots. Im thinking along the lines of the ORIGINAL gro decks found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/strategy/sb20020124b). Im not sure if that strategy is still viable but its worth testing for sure.

Volt
10-17-2006, 11:18 PM
.

Volt
10-17-2006, 11:21 PM
Actually, if your going to up the cantrip count then the number of lands can be decreased opening up a few slots. Im thinking along the lines of the ORIGINAL gro decks found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/strategy/sb20020124b). Im not sure if that strategy is still viable but its worth testing for sure.

Yeah, that thought had occurred to me, as well. With 12 cantrips, we might be able to get away with 16 lands. I would really be hesitant to go below that, though.

Maverick676
10-18-2006, 01:32 AM
Yeah, that thought had occurred to me, as well. With 12 cantrips, we might be able to get away with 16 lands. I would really be hesitant to go below that, though.

Actually I used to run miracle gro with only 14 mana sources (4 land grants) and didn't have too many problems using 12 cantrips.

@Jankwolf: who's your testing partner? odds are they don't have much experience with the deck since legion land loss has never been a very viable deck regardless of the splashed color, Especially against decks that run countermagic and untargetable threats.

EDIT: BTW I think your vastly underestimating the power of the bowflex, it's what makes thunderbluff win.

xsockmonkeyx
10-18-2006, 01:58 AM
I cut the Savannah and a Sleight of hand off of Volts list for +2 Impulse giving the following cantrip base:

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
2 Impulse

Im going to test this to see if more cantrips and less lands would be benefitial.

Maverick676
10-18-2006, 04:34 AM
Why are we suddenly going back to 12+ cantrips? I have done testing with that number and determined it was just too many and you would end up cantriping into more cantrips too often. I was under the impression you guys had come to the same conclusion.

As far as needle vs. stifle, as we have previously discussed stifle is generally better in the main as it can hit trigged , see goblins, as well as activated abilities; Also stifle is much easier to play with game one since you don't have to know ahead of time what to name. This tends to be an issue at large as well as casual weekly tournaments since random decks will always be a part of any tournament and you have to be able to beat them, you won't always know what is coming based only on what your opponent plays in the first 2-3 turns of the game. On a lesser note, stifle also has a suprise factor to it. I firmly believe that both cards have a home in this deck. I strongly advise that stifle be kept in the main and needle, as good as it is, be regulated to the sideboard.

Volt
10-18-2006, 02:00 PM
@Mav: I'm just trying to address a frustration I have with not always having enough dig to find what I need. In particular, I sometimes lose games to aggro because I can't find Winged Sliver in time. Also, it's annoying to get a one-land opening hand with no cantrips to help you dig out. If you look at all the Thresh decks that have T8ed in the last year, you'll see most of them typically run 12 cantrips, give or take. If it works for them, it seems like it should work for us.

@SockMonkey: I have a feeling we're going to want to stick with 17 lands. By removing land, I think we would be defeating part of the purpose of adding the cantrips. You probably won't notice much difference over the short run, but I think ultimately, we'll want to stick with 17. Let me know if you feel differently after play-testing for a while.

Maverick676
10-18-2006, 02:11 PM
@Mav: I'm just trying to address a frustration I have with not always having enough dig to find what I need. In particular, I sometimes lose games to aggro because I can't find Winged Sliver in time. Also, it's annoying to get a one-land opening hand with no cantrips to help you dig out. If you look at all the Thresh decks that have T8ed in the last year, you'll see most of them typically run 12 cantrips, give or take. If it works for them, it seems like it should work for us.

Which aggro are you talking about in particular? against most aggro decks talon sliver is what you need to dig for since once he is down aggro just rolls over to the power of first strike. Although against goblins winged becomes more important being that goblins will overrun you if given enough time.

Also just because thresh is running 12+ cantrips doesn't mean we should. These decks do look similar on paper, but in reality they have some big differences. Thresh needs to have that graveyard full which is why they run so many cantrips. Also our deck is more concerned with threat density than thresh because we need more than one guy out to win the game. So if you are having problems finding winged sliver why not go -2 sleight of hand +1 talon sliver(you really should be running 3 these guys are MVS against aggro), +1 winged sliver. This would allow you to definitely find these slivers against aggro and also would increase your threat density even more.

Volt
10-18-2006, 02:38 PM
.

Maverick676
10-18-2006, 03:02 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I haven't been finding the Goblins matchup to be quite as positive as you and Pinder say. It seems like it's 55-45 or maybe 60-40 at best. Sometimes I have play-testing sessions where I wonder if we're even favored against Goblins at all. It's a very streaky matchup.

I have tested the goblins matchup very thoroughly and we are most definitely favored. I noticed in your list that you aren't running a basic forest, this is a necessary in the goblins matchup. If they can't destroy your mana base your average spell is better than theirs. Also stifle is a huge part of the favorable goblins matchup, as it acts as 4 more "hard counters" for their most gamebreaking spells i.e. Ringleader and Seige-gang. Needle does nothing against these cards. While none of these changes seem like a big deal by themselves, when you go to play the goblins matchup you'll find that all these changes put together tend to have a detrimental effect on the matchup overall.

Volt
10-18-2006, 03:32 PM
.

xsockmonkeyx
10-18-2006, 03:35 PM
Also just because thresh is running 12+ cantrips doesn't mean we should. These decks do look similar on paper, but in reality they have some big differences. Thresh needs to have that graveyard full which is why they run so many cantrips. Also our deck is more concerned with threat density than thresh because we need more than one guy out to win the game.

Actually the main purpose of the cantrips in Gro/Thresh is to gain tons of card quality so you have what you need at every point in the game. The fact that they fill up the graveyard is a secondary goal which, thankfully, we dont have to worry about. Cantrips act somewhat like "wild" cards in that they can become lands early on, counters and answers in the mid game, and finishers in the late game. They smooth out a decks randomness and aide your development at all points in the game.

Maverick676
10-18-2006, 04:48 PM
Actually the main purpose of the cantrips in Gro/Thresh is to gain tons of card quality so you have what you need at every point in the game. The fact that they fill up the graveyard is a secondary goal which, thankfully, we dont have to worry about. Cantrips act somewhat like "wild" cards in that they can become lands early on, counters and answers in the mid game, and finishers in the late game. They smooth out a decks randomness and aide your development at all points in the game.


While brainstorm, and to a lesser extent serum visions, generate lots of card quality sleight of hand does not do such a great job; Only digging two cards deep and at sorcery speed. I tested with this many cantrips and card quality actually decreases alot of the time since you end up cantriping into multiple cantrips more often than you should.

Volt
10-18-2006, 05:14 PM
While brainstorm, and to a lesser extent serum visions, generate lots of card quality sleight of hand does not do such a great job; Only digging two cards deep and at sorcery speed. I tested with this many cantrips and card quality actually decreases alot of the time since you end up cantriping into multiple cantrips more often than you should.
Admittedly, Sleight of Hand is not quite as good as Brainstorm and SV, but it's still pretty solid. Most Thresh decks play Portent instead of SoH, though. I chose SoH because I like putting a card into my hand right now, but Portent might be the better choice for this deck, as well. As far as card quality actually decreasing due to "cantriping into multiple cantrips," I have to ask the question "Why isn't this a problem for Thresh decks?"

Pinder
10-18-2006, 05:46 PM
Alrighty, then. Here goes:

I agree with Mav that whenever you want to run Needle, Stifle is typically better preboard, because it's reactive rather than proactive. If you don't know what to name with Needle, then it's not too useful. Stifle also hits triggered abilities. And the fact that it's a one-time thing is sometimes better. Stifling one of Thresh's fetchlands to gain tempo is certainly better than Needling them and losing our own, no? There are times where it's useless, and times where it's gamebreaking. This may be trying to cover too many bases, but what about 2 Stifle and 2 Needle in the main? If we make the move to 12 cantrips, we shouldn't have trouble finding either, and that way if we know what we're up against ("Mountain, Lackey, go" is a pretty fair indication, no?) we can Needle it proactively, but we still have Stifle to cover the random shit they pull out of their ass. We can always run 2 Stifle and 2 Needle in the board, pulling out the Stifles for 2 more Needles once we know what we're up against, or boarding in the Stifles too for 8 maindeck rapage slots.

I also hate to go below 3 Talon Slivers (he's just so good!), but it would probably be better than cutting another land, even if we have more cantrips.
Subject of what cantrips to run, I think that Sleight of Hand and Portent are equally viable options, depending on what you want to do. If you want to play one of the top cards this turn, Sleight of Hand is obviously better here, but if you want a reactive card a la Force, Daze, Stifle or something, Portent is better because it digs deeper and you won't be using the card until their turn anyway. Testing with both is warranted here. As for Impulse, I still like it, but it should only be added in addition to Porten/SoH, as one mana cantripping is key here. Perhaps a list like this:

//Land (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Beats (15)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Removal (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Permission (13)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Stifle
2 Pithing Needle

//Draw (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent/Slieght of Hand/Impulse/Whatever

//Sideboard (note that this isn't concrete, it could really still be anything)
2 Stifle
2 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Worship
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Harmonic Sliver

If you don't like the 2 Counterspell in the main, you can always cut them and bring the Daze and SoH count up to 4, or leave SoH at 3 and add another Talon Sliver if you prefer 3 (which I think that I will find that I do from further testing). Or, if you don't like 12 cantrips, you could push it down to 10 and run the Counterspells, Dazes, and the 3rd Talon Sliver. If for some reason you still don't like Counterspell in the main, then you can tweak the previous plan by bringing the Stifle count back up to 4 alongside 2 Needle and run 2 of something else in the board. I'll personally be testing all of these ideas.

Pinder
10-18-2006, 05:47 PM
Alrighty, then. Here goes:

I agree with Mav that whenever you want to run Needle, Stifle is typically better preboard, because it's reactive rather than proactive. If you don't know what to name with Needle, then it's not too useful. Stifle also hits triggered abilities. And the fact that it's a one-time thing is sometimes better. Stifling one of Thresh's fetchlands to gain tempo is certainly better than Needling them and losing our own, no? There are times where it's useless, and times where it's gamebreaking. This may be trying to cover too many bases, but what about 2 Stifle and 2 Needle in the main? If we make the move to 12 cantrips, we shouldn't have trouble finding either, and that way if we know what we're up against ("Mountain, Lackey, go" is a pretty fair indication, no?) we can Needle it proactively, but we still have Stifle to cover the random shit they pull out of their ass. We can always run 2 Stifle and 2 Needle in the board, pulling out the Stifles for 2 more Needles once we know what we're up against, or boarding in the Stifles too for 8 maindeck rapage slots.

I also hate to go below 3 Talon Slivers (he's just so good!), but it would probably be better than cutting another land, even if we have more cantrips.
Subject of what cantrips to run, I think that Sleight of Hand and Portent are equally viable options, depending on what you want to do. If you want to play one of the top cards this turn, Sleight of Hand is obviously better here, but if you want a reactive card a la Force, Daze, Stifle or something, Portent is better because it digs deeper and you won't be using the card until their turn anyway. Testing with both is warranted here. As for Impulse, I still like it, but it should only be added in addition to Porten/SoH, as one mana cantripping is key here. Perhaps a list like this:

//Land (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Beats (15)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Removal (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Permission (13)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Stifle
2 Pithing Needle

//Draw (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent/Slieght of Hand/Impulse/Whatever

//Sideboard (note that this isn't concrete, it could really still be anything)
2 Stifle
2 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Worship
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Harmonic Sliver

If you don't like the 2 Counterspell in the main, you can always cut them and bring the Daze and SoH count up to 4, or leave SoH at 3 and add another Talon Sliver if you prefer 3 (which I think that I will find that I do from further testing). Or, if you don't like 12 cantrips, you could push it down to 10 and run the Counterspells, Dazes, and the 3rd Talon Sliver. If for some reason you still don't like Counterspell in the main, then you can tweak the previous plan by bringing the Stifle count back up to 4 alongside 2 Needle and run 2 of something else in the board. I'll personally be testing all of these ideas.

Volt
10-18-2006, 06:48 PM
Pithing Needle vs. Stifle

Goblins:
Stifle is good in this matchup, but Pithing Needle is even better.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Thresh:
Both stop EE, but Stifle can hit an early fetch-land for a tempo boost.
Edge: Stifle

Solidarity:
Pithing Needle is virtually useless here. Stifle can hit fetch-lands for a tempo boost, and might occasionally save you from a lethal brain freeze.
Edge: Stifle

Iggy Pop:
Again, Pithing Needle is useless against storm combo. Stifle is even better here than it is against Solidarity, since Iggy Pop has a harder time playing around it.
Edge: Stifle

Salvager Game:
A single Needle naming Auriok Salvagers pretty much shuts them down. Stifle can be therapied out of your hand before they go off.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Belcher:
Stifle saves you from a single activation. Needle naming Goblin Charbelcher = gg.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Stompy with Equipment:
Stifle is only marginally useful against decks like Angel Stompy, Zilla Stompy, Faerie Stompy, and the like. Pithing Needle is much better in these matchups, as it shuts down Troll Ascetic, Parallax Wave, Umezawa's Jitte, and other equipment.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Affinity:
Stifle is actually decent here, as Modular is a triggered ability and can therefore be stifled. However, Needles naming Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating are very strong.
Edge: Pithing Needle

RGSA:
Stifle is almost completely useless against Survival decks. Pithing Needle at least forces them to find artifact hate.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Pernicious Deed.dec
Stifle will get usually just get picked out of your hand. Pithing Needle is much better here.
Edge: Pithing Needle

Pinder
10-18-2006, 07:03 PM
So, what's the problem with running both?

I'd also like to point out that against the Tier 1, Stifle clearly has the advantage.

But again, why not both?

Volt
10-18-2006, 07:11 PM
So, what's the problem with running both?

I'd also like to point out that against the Tier 1, Stifle clearly has the advantage.

But again, why not both?

I see no problem with running 2 of each, or at least trying it out.

Pinder
10-19-2006, 12:20 AM
I haven't done any real testing, but my goldfishing lends to Mav's theory that 12 cantrips may be too much. When you play Portent and reveal 2 Serum Visions and a Brainstorm, you might be going overboard. Also, this is a problem for us more than for Thresh because we need to commit more mana to more creautres, more often. We can't just plop down a threat, then use all of our mana to cantrip and counter things. We can only afford to play maybe 1 (perhaps 2) cantrips in a given turn early game, so we want those cantrips, on the whole, to draw into business spells. I think that maybe cutting 2 SoH/Portent/Whatever and having only 10 cantrips is the way to go. Or maybe I'm just unlucky, and normal people don't draw cantrips like I do. Onlly further testing will tell.

EDIT:


I strongly advise that stifle be kept in the main and needle, as good as it is, be regulated to the sideboard.

How exactly does one 'regulate' a Pithing Needle? I think the term you're searching for here is 'relegate'. Proper english for the win :tongue:.

Volt
10-19-2006, 01:32 AM
You know what? I think you guys were right about pretty much everything. Of course, I never said you were wrong. I just wanted to try something else out. It didn't work. Forgive me for doubting.

I've gone back to the page 1 build. Well, almost. I would like to suggest finding room for Winged Sliver #3. That actually does seem to improve the deck.

That is all.

Kronicler
10-19-2006, 02:09 AM
Not even 2x Harmonic sideboarded?

Maverick676
10-19-2006, 02:44 AM
You know what? I think you guys were right about pretty much everything. Of course, I never said you were wrong. I just wanted to try something else out. It didn't work. Forgive me for doubting.

I've gone back to the page 1 build. Well, almost. I would like to suggest finding room for Winged Sliver #3. That actually does seem to improve the deck.

That is all.

I could definitely see upping the cantrips to 10 again maybe but 12 is just overkill. I was also going to make a point about thresh only needing one threat but pinder beat me to it. Winged sliver # 3 would be a great addition to the deck, although I'm not sure what to cut for it.

About the needle vs. stifle debate (great analysis btw Volt) stifle seems to be the better choice, it being better against all of the tier 1 decks in the format. In the goblins matchup stifle has the edge in my opinion: it deals with all of their problematic goblins and also deals with wasteland (not as well as needle but it gets the job done). The only cards it doesn't address are vial and port, and vial doesn't really matter at that point since you can stifle any of their really nasty goblins anyway.

EDIT:


Not even 2x Harmonic sideboarded?

We've been discussing him alot lately and are still trying to work him into either the main or the board.

Phantom
10-19-2006, 03:38 PM
We've been discussing him alot lately and are still trying to work him into either the main or the board.

Has any thought been given to bringing E. Call back in light of harmonic sliver? I always liked Call in here, even though it hurts your tempo a tad (not at all if you kept your mana open for a counter) but it allows you to get the sliver that is most useful in that matchup (Muscle vs. Combo, Crystalline vs. Control, Talon/Winged vs. Aggro and of course gives you extra copies of any creatures you board in). I understood why you cut it before as the deck was very redundant, and utilized quality draw spells to find what it needed. Harmonic however, is more inconsistent than your other Slivers. It is a complete house in some matchups, and far and away your worst Sliver in others (at least when the others are dead, they are 2cc).

Normally, this would relegate it to the board (note how pretty much no decks run sex monkey main board) but i think that Harmonic is SO good in certain matchups(Stax, Angel Stax, 5/3, AS, FS, Survival, and even Goblins), that it warrents a 1-of in the mainboard. Of course, a one of won't appear too often, so 1 or 2 E. Calls would greatly improve it's effectiveness as well as your boarding effectiveness. I think it's at least worth some testing.


@Pithing Needle vs. Stifle: I agree with the above breakdown concerning the matchups, but you're not deciding which to put in the deck, you're debating which to put mainboard. In this regard, Stifle has a huuuge advantage. It can often be difficult to tell what to name vs. an opponent game one, and cards like Survival, Belcher, and Deed can be played and used in the same turn, not giving you a chance to lay an effective needle.

Stifle is at least decent vs. almost every deck in the meta, and it's real time nature makes decisions much easier. It also has a surpise factor that is invaluable since players tend to make future plans around their hands, not their opponents. Stifle also gives you a nice advantage in games 2 and 3, where the opponent might be playing around it, even if you boarded it out.

This isn't really an argument against the 2/2 split, just a general comment about their nature.

Volt
10-19-2006, 04:42 PM
You're right that Harmonic is either amazing, or the worst card in the deck, depending on the matchup.

I think running 1 Harmonic Sliver + 1 Eladamri's Call maindeck is a solid idea. I've pretty much given up on trying to sell Mav & Pinder on Eladamri's Call, though. They just aren't buying it.

I even think running 1 Harmonic Sliver + 2 Engineered Explosives maindeck is a solid option. Pinder really hates "one ofs," though, and doesn't seem to buy my explanation that Harmonic and EE are essentially the same thing in this deck.

*Sigh* These guys are so hard to work with. :tongue:

Pinder
10-19-2006, 04:51 PM
You know what? I think you guys were right about pretty much everything. Of course, I never said you were wrong. I just wanted to try something else out. It didn't work. Forgive me for doubting.


I may be wrong, but that absolutely reeks of a concession to me. If you think we're right because of testing, that's okay. But don't just give up and agree because we keep telling you how right we are :tongue:.

I think that you were right about a couple of things:

1) We probably need more cantrips (maybe not 12, but more than 8)
2) Pithing Needle deserves at least some sort of presence in the main.

Also, if we do run Pithing Needle in the main, Harmonics are strictly sideboard. We don't want to get caught with dead Slivers in our hand when we have the only artifact on the table, the same way we don't want to run them with Worship.

As to bringing back E. Call, it might be a good idea, but it would need a far more compelling reason than 'it fetches Harmonics!' to convince me of that. So far 'it fetches any Sliver you need!' hasn't been enough to convince me, but maybe I'm an idiot. I like the utility, but the cost just seems to hurt our tempo too much.



Normally, this would relegate it to the board


And good use of the word 'relegate'. Are you taking notes, Mav :tongue:?

EDIT:


Pinder really hates "one ofs," though, and doesn't seem to buy my explanation that Harmonic and EE are essentially the same thing in this deck.


I realize that they're essentially the same thing, but in that case why not just run 3 of one of them? If we had Call as a 1 of (which I'm still willing to consider, given compelling enough evidence), I can see why running 1 Harmonic makes sense, though. You're right about me hating 'one -ofs' though. Unless we have some sort of tutor effect, I just don't think we'll see them often enough for them to matter.

Volt
10-19-2006, 05:04 PM
I may be wrong, but that absolutely reeks of a concession to me. If you think we're right because of testing, that's okay. But don't just give up and agree because we keep telling you how right we are :tongue:.

I conceded because after a couple nights of play-testing, it didn't seem like the new build was improving the matchup against Goblins, which I really thought it would. I don't know why, but for some reason, I've been having a hard time winning more than half my games against Goblins in play-testing lately, regardless of what build I run. I don't know if it's just a bad streak, or because my play-test partner (Mr. Right Hand) has gotten better at playing Goblins.

As far as Stifle vs. Pithing Needle, Stifle is definitely superior overall against Tier 1. Pithing Needle is generally better against stuff below Tier 1, but it does require that you know what your opponent is playing. And, as you noted, Pithing Needle and Harmonic Sliver don't play well together. Maybe we should just stick with Stifles, because I definitely think we need to be running 3-4 Harmonics between the maindeck and sideboard.


I realize that they're essentially the same thing, but in that case why not just run 3 of one of them? If we had Call as a 1 of (which I'm still willing to consider, given compelling enough evidence), I can see why running 1 Harmonic makes sense, though. You're right about me hating 'one -ofs' though. Unless we have some sort of tutor effect, I just don't think we'll see them often enough for them to matter.
Hmm... If only we had some sort of "tutor" that we could put in the deck. What could do that, I wonder. :tongue:

Seriously, though, the reason to run 1 Harmonic is because it's better than EE in some matchups, but is bad enough in other matchups that you really don't want to draw more than 1 of them.

xsockmonkeyx
10-19-2006, 05:50 PM
I have some results from testing the changes i discussed earlier.

I liked upping the number of cantrips, but taking out land slots gave mixed results. Against decks lacking land hate the number oflands was ok at 15-16 because you only needed one land with the cantrips to dig for the rest. Against decks with land hate the cantrips needed to be lands because there was no guarentee that you would have the mana to dig and set up the rest of the game. It offered significant tempo loss at the expense of useless quality advantage in that setup and against that type of hate.

The cantrips I liked the best out of the new ones were the Portents and the Sleights, in that order. I found Portents to be good on the first turn and late game and poor mid game. I won a couple of games againt goblins where I used Portent in the late game to Elemental Augury them a couple of mountains ftw (Bought me time to kill them). Sleight was good 1st turn and early game but not so good mid and late game for dig. Impulse was poor all around and I feel that E. Call would be much better than this card.

I liked portent the best during these testing sessions because it gave the deck better early and late game. I feel the deck has a strong mid game, once it stablilizes, but stabilizing is an issue and finishing the opponant off can be a problem too at times. Against goblins, for example, often times they would just build up over a couple of turns and kill me if i couldnt put up a significant clock/get evasion to kill them first.

worsel
10-19-2006, 06:09 PM
As to bringing back E. Call, it might be a good idea... I like the utility, but the cost just seems to hurt our tempo too much.

How about Worldly Tutor instead? You lose your draw, but it only costs 1 mana, and you do have cantrips and draw spells to make up for the lost card.

kicks_422
10-19-2006, 06:32 PM
Tutor would hurt the deck's tempo even more... You could get back the card you lost with draw spells, but those spells were meant to get more cards into your hand, not to get back what you've lost... E. Call would still be a better choice..

worsel
10-19-2006, 06:46 PM
Tutor would hurt the deck's tempo even more... You could get back the card you lost with draw spells, but those spells were meant to get more cards into your hand, not to get back what you've lost... E. Call would still be a better choice..

I suppose it depends on the state of the game at the time... either paying less mana will be more beneficial, at that moment, OR, you will be able to afford the extra mana so you don't lose a card. There could be times, however, early game especially, where the fact that Worldly Tutor costs only one mana, may make the difference between being able to tutor or not. This could be beneficial, OR, can you indisputably say that there is never an instance where being able to cast Worldly Tutor a turn earlier, and without having to have white AND green mana available, will be more beneficial to you than not losing one of your draws?

Since both cards have an advantage over the other, I would think the answer may only be answered by testing both. What do you guys think? Volt, you're an advocate of E.Call... did you test Worldly Tutor?

Volt
10-19-2006, 06:50 PM
I suppose it depends on the state of the game at the time... either paying less mana will be more beneficial, at that moment, OR, you will be able to afford the extra mana so you don't lose a card. There could be times, however, early game especially, where the fact that Worldly Tutor costs only one mana, may make the difference between being able to tutor or not. This could be beneficial, OR, can you indisputably say that there is never an instance where being able to cast Worldly Tutor a turn earlier, and without having to have white AND green mana available, will be more beneficial to you than not losing one of your draws?

Since both cards have an advantage over the other, I would think the answer may only be answered by testing both. What do you guys think? Volt, you're an advocate of E.Call... did you test Worldly Tutor?

Nope, I've never actually tested it in this deck. I can imagine scenarios where Worldly Tutor would work where EC would not, but I think the card disadvantage is the overriding concern.

Pinder
10-19-2006, 10:36 PM
Hmm... If only we had some sort of tutor that didn't cause some sort of significant tempo loss in the early to mid-game that we could put in the deck. What could do that, I wonder. :tongue:


Edited for clarity...and for the win :tongue:.

Honestly, it's not the tutoring portion of either EC or Worldly Tutor that I dislike. I like being able to fetch any Sliver in the deck. It's the tempo loss that makes me less than enamoured with the both of them. Worldly Tutor makes you lose your next draw, or spend an extra card (that should be spent digging into something else) to avoid losing that draw. Either way, you're losing a card. The problem with EC is that it costs 2, so you can't play it first turn, and it also loses you a turn when you play it, either if you tap out during your turn, or leave the mana open to play it at the end of theirs. Either way, it's mana not spent playing a Sliver. In the long run, I see EC as being the better of the two, as the drawback becomes less and less significant the further you move past two mana, but the drawback on Worldly Tutor stays the same.

And my problem hasn't ever really been with EC on principle, it's been with EC as a one-of. When I tested it with only one maindeck, I never drew it when it would have mattered, and whenever I drew it, it didn't matter. So I see no reason not to just run a card we would like to see more often.

And if EC was a one mana creature tutor that put the creature into your hand, then fuck yes I would run them.



I liked portent the best during these testing sessions because it gave the deck better early and late game. I feel the deck has a strong mid game, once it stablilizes, but stabilizing is an issue and finishing the opponant off can be a problem too at times. Against goblins, for example, often times they would just build up over a couple of turns and kill me if i couldnt put up a significant clock/get evasion to kill them first.


I agree that Portent is probably the better in the Portent/SoH debate, because of two things:

1) It lets you fiddle with your opponent's library. This can buy you time, or shuffle away a something they put on top (like a Top). You can either force them into something they don't need, or force something they do need out of reach.

2) It lets you shuffle your library. There have been numerous times when I've had to put useless crap (usually land) on the top with brainstorm without a fetchland to shuffle them away, and a follow-up Portent can achieve the same effect, and draw you a card.

nightshade81
10-20-2006, 12:58 AM
I have never played this deck or tested it but I have had the pleasure of beating the crap out of it once or twice. JK - Volt

Anyways on to real discussion, I think you should reconsider putting 3 Eladamri's Calls back into the deck. It's especially note worthy now with the release of Harmonic Sliver. Several of you had him MD and at one point Volt said:

I've been doing some playtesting with a couple of Harmonic Slivers in the deck. They're pretty sweet, and I think we definitely need to make room for them. I would suggest 2 maindeck

With Eladamri's Call you'll be able to get the sliver you need in each specific match-up. Alright, the valid counter argument is the loss of tempo. To address that, I would like to ask in which match-ups does one turn of tempo really matter against the 4 major arch-types (combo, control, aggro-control, and aggro) The answers are combo and aggro. Against true control one turn isn't going to matter whatís going to be game breaking is if you can counter their wrath effects. Against aggro-control nothing spectacular is going to happen in the first 4 turns it's all about the mid-game and the late-game (this is were you really need a Crystalline Sliver and having access to 7 is nice). Against all forms of combo this deck rocks them, and searching out Muscle Sliver is nice. The exception (exception meaning not an auto-win) being Solidarity were Eladamri's Call isn't as strong but again Muscle Sliver search can really put them on a clock just as fast as playing any other sliver being played the turn before.

Now to talk about the true debate where the tempo loss truly matters, aggro. Does the ability to search out any sliver that you need, at a cost of two turns, and four mana worth the investment against aggro? This is a question that I would like others to debate because I feel that this is truly the only reason that Eladamri's Call isn't in the deck. Personally (if it isn't obvious by now) that I feel that it is. I think it is because being able to get the silver you need right now for this match-up, normal Talon for aggro, at the loss of temp is a pro not a con. It has also been stated that in the counter argument against ∆ther Vials, speed at the cost of card quality is not optimal (in this deck). The added versatility and utility aspect of Eladamri's Call cannot be ignored.


A list something like this:

//Land (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Beats (14)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

//Permission (12)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle

//Draw-Search (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Eladamri's Calls

Also Stifle/EE/Talon/Needle #'s can be interchanged upon personal preference. I have just always been a huge fan of EE.

Volt
10-20-2006, 01:43 AM
.

Maverick676
10-20-2006, 01:43 AM
How exactly does one 'regulate' a Pithing Needle? I think the term you're searching for here is 'relegate'. Proper english for the win :tongue:.

regulate
1.to control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.: to regulate household expenses.


Pithing Needle is regulated to the sideboard by the rule that stifle is generally better against the tier 1 and unknown decks, whereas needle is generally more effective in the sideboard.

Relegate however implies that we are sending pithing needle to an obscure or inferior condition or location, which is not the case. Pithing Needle is most effective game 2 hence it should be in the board for game 1.

Never insult Mav his wrath is swift and surprisingly minty.:smile:


Anyway moving on, regarding Eladmari's Call testing of the tool box approach would be intersting. We might want to give Living Wish a second look too. I do not like worldly tutor in this deck at all since we have no real way to gain or maintain actual card advantage and worldly tutor is always card disadvantage.

Volt
10-20-2006, 01:47 AM
regulate
1.to control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.: to regulate household expenses.


Pithing Needle is regulated to the sideboard by the rule that stifle is generally better against the tier 1 and unknown decks, whereas needle is generally more effective in the sideboard.

Relegate however implies that we are sending pithing needle to an obscure or inferior condition or location, which is not the case. Pithing Needle is most effective game 2 hence it should be in the board for game 1.

Never insult Mav his wrath is swift and surprisingly minty. :smile:
Um, nice try, but no. Bad engrish for the lose. :tongue:

Pinder
10-20-2006, 02:17 AM
Never insult Mav his wrath is swift and surprisingly minty.:smile:


And entirely devoid of commas, I note.



Anyway moving on, regarding Eladmari's Call testing of the tool box approach would be intersting.


Testing, oh I don't know, the use of commas might prove interesting, as well.



I do not like worldly tutor in this deck at all since we have no real way to gain or maintain actual card advantage and worldly tutor is always card disadvantage.

Christ, boy. Did that hurt?

xsockmonkeyx
10-20-2006, 03:01 AM
Now to talk about the true debate where the tempo loss truly matters, aggro. Does the ability to search out any sliver that you need, at a cost of two turns, and four mana worth the investment against aggro? This is a question that I would like others to debate because I feel that this is truly the only reason that Eladamri's Call isn't in the deck. Personally (if it isn't obvious by now) that I feel that it is. I think it is because being able to get the silver you need right now for this match-up, normal Talon for aggro, at the loss of temp is a pro not a con. It has also been stated that in the counter argument against Æther Vials, speed at the cost of card quality is not optimal (in this deck). The added versatility and utility aspect of Eladamri's Call cannot be ignored.


A list something like this:

//Land (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Beats (14)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

//Permission (12)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle

//Draw-Search (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Eladamri's Calls

Also Stifle/EE/Talon/Needle #'s can be interchanged upon personal preference. I have just always been a huge fan of EE.

The list is intriguing but i wouldn't run more than 2 E.Call due to, just what you talked about, loss of tempo. Id also never go below 2 talon sliver otherwise your chances against aggro diminishes somewhat. Im gonna try that list -1 E.Call, +1 Talon Sliver and see how it goes.

Volt
10-20-2006, 03:25 AM
The list is intriguing but i wouldn't run more than 2 E.Call due to, just what you talked about, loss of tempo. Id also never go below 2 talon sliver otherwise your chances against aggro diminishes somewhat. Im gonna try that list -1 E.Call, +1 Talon Sliver and see how it goes.
Very similar to what I said in post #100.

It's funny how we've come full circle. As I recall, when we started with this deck in N&D, we were running 2 EC, then cut to 1, then to none. I never really understood why we kept cutting them. I've always thought they were pretty terrific. Yeah, they cost you some tempo, but the utility is worth it. As SockMonkey said, though, I wouldn't run more than 2.

xsockmonkeyx
10-20-2006, 04:52 AM
It's funny how we've come full circle. As I recall, when we started with this deck in N&D, we were running 2 EC, then cut to 1, then to none. I never really understood why we kept cutting them. I've always thought they were pretty terrific. Yeah, they cost you some tempo, but the utility is worth it. As SockMonkey said, though, I wouldn't run more than 2.

True, there has been some waffling. However, that was pre-time spiral and ideas are always ok to reevaluate.

Pinder
10-20-2006, 01:29 PM
Alrighty, so it seems to me like everyone is coming to the consensus that Eladamri's Call need sanother look at. I'm fine with that, just as long as there's more than one :tongue:. 2 seems like it would be a decent number here. Looking at both my prior list and the one that nightshade posted:

//Land (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Beats (16)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

//Removal (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Permission (13)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle

//Utility (2)
2 Eladamri's Call


//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

The main difference between the lists is that I cut the 2 EE from nightshade's list for an extra Talon and Winged Sliver, because I don't really like either of them as one ofs (who'd have guessed? :wink:). Also, I'm not sure about dropping our threat count below 16. Having only 14 creatures worries me a bit. But maybe it will turn out that that's still enough.

Those with sharp eyes might also notice that this list is nearly identical to my last one as well, simply with EC in place of the 2 Portents.

swordoffireandice
10-23-2006, 10:25 AM
Hi, i have been watching the forum site closely and decided (after a lot of testing) to take the Sliver deck to the Dutch open tournament next sunday.
I think there will be about 200+ people, so this will be a real testcase!

This is the deck i will be piloting next sunday:

Land:

1 plains
1 forest
1 island
3 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
4 tundra
3 tropical island
1 savannah

creatures:

4 crystalline sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 plated sliver (i expect a lot of goblins)
3 talon sliver (against aggro i always want this dude on the table)
2 harmonic sliver
1 winged sliver

spells:

4 brainstorm
4 serum visions
4 FOW
4 daze
3 stifle
4 STP
1 chain of vapor
1 eladamri's call

sideboard:

1 stifle
4 meddling mage
4 jotun grunt (much more agressive than tormod's crypt)
2 harmonic sliver
2 pithing needle
2 tivadar's crusade (i know there will be a lot of goblins)


This deck is working just great for me, i have tested this deck against all the good legacy decks at the moment. Only landstill caused al bit of a problem.

If you have any "feedback" lett me know.

I will post the results next week.

Volt
10-23-2006, 12:05 PM
Hi, i have been watching the forum site closely and decided (after a lot of testing) to take the Sliver deck to the Dutch open tournament next sunday.
I think there will be about 200+ people, so this will be a real testcase!

This is the deck i will be piloting next sunday:

Land:

1 plains
1 forest
1 island
3 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
4 tundra
3 tropical island
1 savannah

creatures:

4 crystalline sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 plated sliver (i expect a lot of goblins)
3 talon sliver (against aggro i always want this dude on the table)
2 harmonic sliver
1 winged sliver

spells:

4 brainstorm
4 serum visions
4 FOW
4 daze
3 stifle
4 STP
1 chain of vapor
1 eladamri's call

sideboard:

1 stifle
4 meddling mage
4 jotun grunt (much more agressive than tormod's crypt)
2 harmonic sliver
2 pithing needle
2 tivadar's crusade (i know there will be a lot of goblins)


This deck is working just great for me, i have tested this deck against all the good legacy decks at the moment. Only landstill caused al bit of a problem.

If you have any "feedback" lett me know.

I will post the results next week.

Awesome! We've been waiting for someone to pilot this deck at a large event!

Your decklist looks pretty good, although the lone Chain of Vapor looks a little odd. Also, with only one Winged Sliver, I question whether you'll be able to find it when you need it. It's actually pretty necessary against Goblins, as you often need to fly over their hordes to win. It's also pretty necessary against stuff like Faerie Stompy, Angel Stompy, Blue Skies, etc.

Be sure to give us a report next week. Even if you have a rough time, I'm sure we can all learn something from it. Good luck!

xsockmonkeyx
10-23-2006, 04:47 PM
Volt has been discussing the idea of maindeck Worship as an "I win" card against goblins. If your expecting a heavy goblin meta then you should probably consider it.

Volt
10-23-2006, 04:56 PM
Here are a couple ideas I wanted to toss out there as possible maindeck (or sideboard) inclusions:

1) Worship: I hear Crystalline Sliver + Worship is pretty good against some decks.

2) Parallax Wave: A one-sided Wrath of God.

Both of these spells cost 4, and might therefore necessitate bumping up the land count to 18. I haven't tried Parallax Wave yet, but I'm currently play-testing a version with 2 Worship maindeck. It seems pretty solid, and wins a LOT of games against Goblins. More importantly, it's not just a "win more" card, as it can turn around games that are definitely not going your way. Btw, yes, you can usually get it down against Goblins despite all their mana disruption.

I got the Parallax Wave idea from one of winning decks in Bardo's "build the best sliver deck" contest (which in reality should have been named "build the most original sliver deck"). Although the deck looks pretty janky overall, Parallax Wave does seem like an interesting option.

swordoffireandice
10-23-2006, 05:35 PM
Worship is a killer against goblins, that is if you can get 4 lands in play. In my testing that was sometimes realy hard with the wastelands and Rishadan Port.
With 18 lands it should be easier....but you have to take out 3 cards, what do you take out?

The lone chain of vapor seems indeed odd, but i have tested the deck against Affinity were the vapor is very good against a pumped up Ravager or Atog! against Reanimator it is great together with the swords.
I also had a lot of fun bouncing a Chrome Mox or a Mox Diamond. Bouncing back a Sea Drake wich is already mentioned is also fun and slows the opponent down. I wanted a Vapor in my sideboard also, but there is no room.

I realy want to put a second Winged Sliver in the deck Volt, but i don't no what to take out.....any suggestions anyone?

Volt
10-23-2006, 06:11 PM
Worship is a killer against goblins, that is if you can get 4 lands in play. In my testing that was sometimes realy hard with the wastelands and Rishadan Port.
With 18 lands it should be easier....but you have to take out 3 cards, what do you take out?

The lone chain of vapor seems indeed odd, but i have tested the deck against Affinity were the vapor is very good against a pumped up Ravager or Atog! against Reanimator it is great together with the swords.
I also had a lot of fun bouncing a Chrome Mox or a Mox Diamond. Bouncing back a Sea Drake wich is already mentioned is also fun and slows the opponent down. I wanted a Vapor in my sideboard also, but there is no room.

I realy want to put a second Winged Sliver in the deck Volt, but i don't no what to take out.....any suggestions anyone?

Well, here's the build I'm testing right now:

//Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Counterspells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

//Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Other
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Worship


With this build, I've gone 19-11 against Vial Goblins (mono-red with 4 Wasteland + 4 Port, which is about the toughest version to play against) in play-testing. That is a significant improvement over previous CounterSliver builds I have tried. A lot of those games were won by getting down Crystalline + Worship, and occasionally even Worship + multiple Plated/Muscle. Yes, Goblins will disrupt your mana for a while, but you can usually stall the game long enough to get the Worship down. The key is to use your cantrips to dig for land, and maybe Stifle a Wasteland here or there. Occasionally, I would die with an unplayed Worship in my hand, but that seemed to be the exception rather than the rule.

You'll notice there's no artifact/enchantment hate in my build. That could be a problem in other matchups. If you're concerned about it, you might want to make the following adjustments: -1 Plated, -1 Stifle, +2 Engineered Explosives.

Jankwolf
10-23-2006, 10:31 PM
MAv/pinder...Phil has suggested you guys put essence sliver in the deck...erm...he sorta made me post this>>>>

Volt
10-23-2006, 10:46 PM
MAv/pinder...Phil has suggested you guys put essence sliver in the deck...erm...he sorta made me post this>>>>

I tried Essence Sliver a while back. It's decent, but doesn't say "I win" as often as Worship does. It's usually only good if you already have board advantage, in which case you're probably winning anyway. Worship has the power to turn a losing position into an auto-win.

Pinder
10-23-2006, 11:58 PM
MAv/pinder...Phil has suggested you guys put essence sliver in the deck...erm...he sorta made me post this>>>>

Well, we've all known for a while that Phil was pretty dumb, but I guess that proves it :tongue:. Seriously though, if I'm spending 3W on something, I'd rather it be Worship than Essence Sliver.

@swordoffireandice, I think it's great that you're taking this thing to a big tourney. Mav, Volt and I have been stifled by the lack of big Legacy tourneys on this side of the world. This should help with that a lot. I would strongly suggest that you take a close look at the last list Volt posted, especially if you're excpecting a lot of Goblins at the tourney. We've been tuning it for a while now. I would also advocate his sugggestion of -1 Stifle, -1 Plated, +2 Engineered Explosives. You might also make room for 1 MD basic Forest, but that slot could just as easily stay the second island if you decide to go that route. Make T8 and we'll give you a cookie :wink:.

EDIT: Oh, and after some testing, I've decided (and maybe Volt is finally backing me on this?) that Eladamri's Call is a little clunky for this deck. Moreso than Counterspell, at least, and I'm not running those. It just seemed that they never seemed to matter when I got them, and I never got them when they would have mattered.

Volt
10-24-2006, 12:16 AM
EDIT: Oh, and after some testing, I've decided (and maybe Volt is finally backing me on this?) that Eladamri's Call is a little clunky for this deck. Moreso than Counterspell, at least, and I'm not running those. It just seemed that they never seemed to matter when I got them, and I never got them when they would have mattered.

I think one (and only one) EC is fine, but ultimately not as useful as an EE or Worship.

Btw, I'm really loving the maindeck Worships.

Jankwolf
10-24-2006, 12:23 AM
Eldamri's Call seems more like a "tool box" card anyway...Besides, im sure you have all discussed this to death, what would you cut for it...The deck, as i see it, is pretty well balanced and stream line. It may need a bit of tweaking after its been fully play tested in an accual tournament, but i see no problem with it becoming a major threat in legacy. Its got my support and normally I damn every crazy idea that Mav and Pinder come up with...This crazy idea worked...Who knew?


P.s. Phil would support it if it had a 5 color mana base and you guys added Sliver Queen, Sliver Overlord and a Bubbling Beebles for good measure!

Pinder
10-24-2006, 12:31 AM
I think one (and only one) EC is fine, but ultimately not as useful as an EE or Worship.

Btw, I'm really loving the maindeck Worships.

I admit that Worship is good, but have you playtested it against anything other than Goblins? It might not be quite as much of an 'I win' against things that can actually deal with enchantments. Of course, there's not a ton of decks that can deal with it maindeck, but it's just a thought.

Volt
10-24-2006, 01:17 AM
I admit that Worship is good, but have you playtested it against anything other than Goblins? It might not be quite as much of an 'I win' against things that can actually deal with enchantments. Of course, there's not a ton of decks that can deal with it maindeck, but it's just a thought.

It should be "I win" in game 1 against Thresh, too. Most decks can handle Worship after sideboarding, but many do not have a maindeck answer for it. Being able to start 1-0 against a large portion of the aggro and aggro-control decks is a pretty big advantage.

To answer your question, though... Nope, I haven't play-tested the Worship version against anything but Goblins, so far.

Pinder
10-24-2006, 01:38 PM
I doubt it will matter too much, as there aren't any decks that I can think of that pack maindeck enchantment hate. And we can always side them out in G2 (for Needles or the like) if we're expecting them to board something like that in.

swordoffireandice
10-25-2006, 07:44 AM
I have tested the deck this week against non aggro decks like Landstill, Reset and Iggy Pop. Those decks are very hard to beat!
The lone Elad. Call was great against thes decks. having a fifth Meddling Mage against these fast decks is really good, it slows them down. Getting a beater like Jotul Grunt aint bad either. You have so many choices with the Elad. Call.
The test matchups against aggro decks with Worship is better than without, but against non aggro decks you do not want the Worship. I feel like the deck does also very well against aggro without the Worship.
The Harmonic Sliver worked great against Goblins (Eather Vial) and Iggy Pop (Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond) Both can't be removed with An EE!
I tested against a version of Iggy Pop with Defense Grid in the sideboard, Harmonic is very very good. Just don't run Pithing Needles and Harmonic Sliver together........
Four days to go before the Dutch open Guys!

I forgot to mention RGSA, the Meddling Mages, Pithing Needle and Jotul Grunt are great. They can't handle all of them, it is just too much. The Harmonic Sliver is also great, but i rather play the Pithing Needles.

Volt
10-25-2006, 06:22 PM
I have tested the deck this week against non aggro decks like Landstill, Reset and Iggy Pop. Those decks are very hard to beat!
The lone Elad. Call was great against thes decks. having a fifth Meddling Mage against these fast decks is really good, it slows them down. Getting a beater like Jotul Grunt aint bad either. You have so many choices with the Elad. Call.
The test matchups against aggro decks with Worship is better than without, but against non aggro decks you do not want the Worship. I feel like the deck does also very well against aggro without the Worship.
The Harmonic Sliver worked great against Goblins (Eather Vial) and Iggy Pop (Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond) Both can't be removed with An EE!
I tested against a version of Iggy Pop with Defense Grid in the sideboard, Harmonic is very very good. Just don't run Pithing Needles and Harmonic Sliver together........
Four days to go before the Dutch open Guys!

I forgot to mention RGSA, the Meddling Mages, Pithing Needle and Jotul Grunt are great. They can't handle all of them, it is just too much. The Harmonic Sliver is also great, but i rather play the Pithing Needles.

I haven't play-tested Landstill, but it does seem like it would be a difficult matchup.

Game 1 against Solidarity & Iggy Pop is tough, but winnable. After sideboarding, both of those matchups become fairly easy.

Goed geluk!

Pinder
10-25-2006, 07:20 PM
I haven't play-tested Landstill, but it does seem like it would be a difficult matchup.


It is pretty tough, at least, Mav's UWR build is tough (maindeck EE ruins us!).



The Harmonic Sliver worked great against Goblins (Eather Vial) and Iggy Pop (Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond) Both can't be removed with An EE!


Um, all of them can be answered by EE. I admit, not at the same time (except in the case of Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond, which both cost 0). Since there isn't any deck that runs LP, LED, and Vial in the same deck, this shouldn't be a problem.

xsockmonkeyx
10-25-2006, 07:37 PM
It is pretty tough, at least, Mav's UWR build is tough (maindeck EE ruins us!).



Um, all of them can be answered by EE. I admit, not at the same time (except in the case of Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond, which both cost 0). Since there isn't any deck that runs LP, LED, and Vial in the same deck, this shouldn't be a problem.

The LED/Petal point is somewhat of a moot issue. If the IGGy player drops their LED and passes so you can nullify it then you were probably going to win anyway. This because they don't know much about how their own deck works and have no business playing it. LED should be the absolute last thing they drop before IGG, tutors, etc. especially with an EE for 0 sitting on your side of the board.

Pinder
10-25-2006, 09:23 PM
The LED/Petal point is somewhat of a moot issue. If the IGGy player drops their LED and passes so you can nullify it then you were probably going to win anyway. This because they don't know much about how their own deck works and have no business playing it. LED should be the absolute last thing they drop before IGG, tutors, etc. especially with an EE for 0 sitting on your side of the board.

You speak the truth. Honeslty the thing I liked best about EE was that it took out Nimble Mongoose. It also can kill Troll (only if they don't have regeneration mana, but whatever). The fact that it can deal with problem enchantments and artifacts was actually more of a secondary thing. The other thing I really liked about it was that it was board sweep, and could potentially generate card advantage (in the form of X-for-1s), which is something this deck is really craving.

xsockmonkeyx
10-25-2006, 09:50 PM
You speak the truth. Honeslty the thing I liked best about EE was that it took out Nimble Mongoose. It also can kill Troll (only if they don't have regeneration mana, but whatever). The fact that it can deal with problem enchantments and artifacts was actually more of a secondary thing. The other thing I really liked about it was that it was board sweep, and could potentially generate card advantage (in the form of X-for-1s), which is something this deck is really craving.


Don't get me wrong, I like EE in the deck either in the main or relegated ('regulated' if you're Mavtarded :tongue:) to the sideboard. However, if I were paired against IGGy I'd certainly side EE's out if they were in the main, or leave them in the board whichever the case may be. That is all.

Maverick676
10-26-2006, 01:38 AM
Actually EE can come in handy in the Iggy-Pop match since it takes out defense grid, which will cause you to lose the game. A single explosives set at two insures that you can destroy all their defense grids at once. Explosives can also deal with xantid swarms if they are running them.

Pinder
10-26-2006, 01:48 PM
A single explosives set at two insures that you can destroy all their defense grids at once.

The problem there is, Explosives at 2 also kills 99.9% of your guys. YOu have a point about Xantid Swarm, though, even though no build of IGGy Pop I've ever seen runs them :tongue:. I'll admit that EE isn't dead in the first game against IGGy, but it probably should be sided out Game 2 in favor of Meddling Mages and such, don't you think?

Maverick676
10-26-2006, 02:13 PM
The problem there is, Explosives at 2 also kills 99.9% of your guys. YOu have a point about Xantid Swarm, though, even though no build of IGGy Pop I've ever seen runs them :tongue:. I'll admit that EE isn't dead in the first game against IGGy, but it probably should be sided out Game 2 in favor of Meddling Mages and such, don't you think?

EDIT: Oh, and it's 'ensure', not, 'insure'. Common mistake. You're still Mavtarded, though :tongue:.

It's not a big deal to kill your guys if you are going to stop their combo with force of will or daze. If you have something like disenchant in the board it is probably better in this slot. However should your board be devoid of disenchants, then EE is a good thing to keep in.

Also there are builds that run a green splash for Xantid Swarm.

Pinder
10-26-2006, 04:24 PM
One thing about correcting someone else's spelling and/or grammar... You better make sure you're right:

Originally Posted by Merriam Webster
Main Entry: in∑sure
Pronunciation: in-'shur
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): in∑sured; in∑sur∑ing
Etymology: Middle English, to assure, probably alteration of assuren
transitive verb
1 : to provide or obtain insurance on or for
2 : to make certain especially by taking necessary measures and precautions
intransitive verb : to contract to give or take insurance
synonym see ENSURE



Hot damn. I guess I'm a regular Pintard, then :wink:. At least I was still correct in my word usage =/.

swordoffireandice
10-30-2006, 09:55 AM
Hi, here is my report of the Dutch Open Legacy 2006. There were over 128 people, so we had too play 8 rounds of Swiss and a single elimination top 8.

Here is my deck list:

Land:

1 plains
1 forest
1 island
3 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
4 tundra
3 tropical island
1 savannah

creatures:

4 crystalline sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 plated sliver
3 talon sliver
2 harmonic sliver
1 winged sliver

spells:

4 brainstorm
4 serum visions
4 FOW
4 daze
3 stifle
4 STP
1 chain of vapor
1 eladamri's call

sideboard:

1 stifle
4 meddling mage
4 jotun grunt
2 harmonic sliver
4 tivadar's crusade



First round I played against Steven Geurts with Threshold UWG.

Game 1: He gained threshold rather fast and beat me a couple of times until I had enough slivers. Then he played a Mystic Enforcer witch I could not counter/Swords, so I lost game 1.

In: 4x Jotul Grunt and 2x Meddling Mage
Out: 4x Daze and 2 Plated Sliver

Game 2: He didnít/couldnít build threshold, but played a Nimble Mongoose and a Worship. I had Jotun Grunt and some slivers and kept beating him. Then I played an Eladamriís Call for Harmonic Sliver and waited to play him until I had two FOW with two blue cards. I played Harmonic, he fowed, I fowed back and he said O.K. I told him that the Worship was the target, he thought that the next Sliver could do that, not the harmonic, but a judge had to tell him otherwise. Game two for me.

With 6 minutes to go we had no time for a third game.

0-1-0


Round two:
Jeroen Bertelink playing a Rifter deck:

Game 1: I played Crystalline/Muscle and another sliver he tried to play a Wrath of God witch I Dazed. Next turn I attacked FTW.

In: 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Jotun Grunt and 1 Stifle
Out: 4 Daze, 4 STP and ?

Game 2: I played Crystalline again with Muscle, he played Loxodon Hierarch witch I countered. I attacked again. He played Eternal Witness for the Loxodon. I attacked again. He played the Loxodon, but I Stifled the life gain and attacked the next turn FTW.

1-1-0


Round three:
Martijn van der Vaart playing (Nausea?) Iggy Pop.

Game 1: I attacked with some Slivers until he played a Tendrils for 8. then I attacked some more until he tried to go of, but a well placed counter on his first dark Ritual held him off. Next turn I attacked FTW.

In: 4 Meddling/4 Grunt/ 1 Stifle
Out: 4 STP/ 1 Chain of Vapor/and I believe 2 plated and 2 talon Sliver.

Game 2: I played Crystalline/muscle and Grunt. I Stifled his Tendrils and that was game.

2-1-0

Round four:
Bastiaan Boel playing Threshold WGR

Game 1: He had Threshold and I was low on live until I gained control. The direct damage was too much.

In: 4 Grunt/4 Meddling Mage
Out: 4 Daze/ 4 plated I believe

Game 2: I had two Grunts and a Sliver, but he had a Vedalken Shackles and took a Grunt from me. He also played Werebear with Threshold. I didnít got the Harmonic SliverÖdamn. Lost that game too.

2-1-1

Round five;
Ronald Groenstege playing Life From the Loam/cycling lands/wasteland/werebear/terravore/solitary confinement

Game 1: he cycled some lands, played Werebear and Terravore. I played Silvers and did some damage. He played Solitary, I played Harmonic on Solitary and attacked FTW.

In: Meddling Mage Jotun Grunt
Out: Daze and plated and Chain of Vapor?

Game 2: He had wasteland and LFTL from the beginning. I couldnít get going with no lands and lost.

Game 3: I had some creatures but he played two Wrath of Gods witch I could not counter and then he had Genesis and Eternal Witness and kept playing creatures.

2-1-2

Round 6:
All something from Australia playing Goblins.

Game 1: I didnít know he played Goblins and kept a hand with no Plated Sliver, no STP and no FOW and StiflesÖÖ he played Lackey a lot of Goblins and won game won. Although he won it took him a very long time.

In: 4 Tivadarís Crusade 1 Stifle
Out: 4 Daze and 1 Chain of Vapor

Game 2: I played Crystalline and some other sliver witch he could not handle. Game two for me.

Game three: I played two Tivadarís Crusade but the Goblins still kept coming, this guy played really slow and had to think a lotÖ. No more time was the reason for a draw!

2-2-2

I didnít feel like playing two more rounds and dropped. A friend of mine was going very well (made top 8) so I went watching him play his Landstill deck with Pernicious Deed.

When I looked around I saw a lot of Goblins and some black disrupt decks.

Top 8:
-Goblins
-landstill
-UWB Fish
-LFTL/cycle lands/wasteland/werebear/terravore
-Affinity
-Smallpox disrupt deck
-Land destruction with Trinisphere etc
-?


It was a great tournament and the Sliver deck worked fine. The Threshold match up is 50/50, I played two times against Threshold (1 lost and 1 draw). I feel like this is not good enough. A lot of times I wished for the Jotun Grunt to be a Tormodís Crypt. This happened also against LFTL deck. I think two Jotul Grunt and 4 Tormodís Crypt would have been better in the sideboard. LFTL/wasteland decks are also a pain in the ass.

The Chain of Vapor can be replaced, with what I donít know yet.
The Harmonic must stay in the deck! I think one is enough with two Eladamriís call main deck. One Winged Sliver is also enough, I only used him once those 6 rounds.
The one Savannah is also a must, there were more than e few times when I needed a Savannah.
The Meddling Mages in the sideboard can be discussedÖ.I feel like two is enough with the Eladamriís maindeck. Maybe we can cut them all.

I hope you guys can do something with this report.

If you have any questions feel free too ask!

Volt
10-30-2006, 12:40 PM
Thanks very much for the report! It's good to see someone playing this deck at a major tournament.

Some thoughts about your matches:

UGW Thresh: While I feel this matchup is slightly favorable for Meat Hooks, you do run the risk of running out of time (and having to settle for a draw) if you don't win the first game, which is something I've warned against repeatedly. Obviously, winning the first game therefore becomes very important in this matchup. My suggestion? Maindeck Worship. Thresh usually has no maindeck answer for it. Btw, I don't think siding out Plateds is a good call against Thresh.

Rifter: Good job on sweeping this match, because I don't think this is a particularly good matchup for Meat Hooks, at least in game 1. Armageddon is a very good card to bring out of the sideboard against any white-based control deck. The idea is to play out a couple of slivers, counter their Humility or Wrath, then geddon and win.

UGR Thresh: You wrote WGR Thresh, but I'm going to assume that was a typo. Once again, maindeck Worship would have been golden in this matchup. Also, siding out Plated was a big mistake; you were making his Pyroclasms better. Finally, bad break on your opponent actually being able to activate Vedalken Shackles against you. Obviously, if you have Crystalline or Harmonic, the Shackles are useless against you.

Goblins: Bad break on having to settle for a draw in this matchup. He was very lucky to get a Lackey through against you in game 1, and it sounds like he slow-played you in the following games. Did you call a judge? Btw, I have one word for you: Worship.


I agree with most of your final comments. Tormod's Crypt > Jotun's Grunt. Chain of Vapor doesn't belong. Savannah is good. Not sure about removing Meddling Mage from the sideboard, though. I could see cutting to 3, but not taking them out completely.


As you all can see, I'm still pushing for maindeck Worship. I think it saves a lot of game 1s. I was play-testing with two of them in the maindeck, and I was amazed at how often they were coming up, so I decided to do an experiment. Yesterday, I played a set of 24 games against mono-red Vial Goblins, with just 1 Worship maindeck. The results:

Win/Loss: 16-8 in favor of Meat Hooks
Games won with Worship lock: 8
Games where I drew Worship but couldn't get it down: 2 (lost both of those)

With just one Worship in the deck, I still drew into it over 40% of the time! And when I did draw it, I was able to get it down 80% of those times, despite having to contend with Gobbo's 4 Wastelands + 4 Ports. Also, I would say it improves the win percentage against Goblins by a good 10%. Now, I realize I only tested one matchup, but I think these results will translate over to a lot of other matchups. While Worship isn't good against decks like Solidarity and Iggy Pop, neither is stuff like Talon Sliver #3 or Engineered Explosives (the cards I would suggest cutting to make room for 1-2 Worships + land #18), so those matchups won't be adversely affected by the addition of Worship.

swordoffireandice
10-30-2006, 01:35 PM
Thanks very much for the report! It's good to see someone playing this deck at a major tournament.

Some thoughts about your matches:

UGW Thresh: While I feel this matchup is slightly favorable for Meat Hooks, you do run the risk of running out of time (and having to settle for a draw) if you don't win the first game, which is something I've warned against repeatedly. Obviously, winning the first game therefore becomes very important in this matchup. My suggestion? Maindeck Worship. Thresh usually has no maindeck answer for it. Btw, I don't think siding out Plateds is a good call against Thresh.

I agreed and still do, winning the first game is very very important against Thresh! Worship could do the trick.

Rifter: Good job on sweeping this match, because I don't think this is a particularly good matchup for Meat Hooks, at least in game 1. Armageddon is a very good card to bring out of the sideboard against any white-based control deck. The idea is to play out a couple of slivers, counter their Humility or Wrath, then geddon and win.

UGR Thresh: You wrote WGR Thresh, but I'm going to assume that was a typo. Once again, maindeck Worship would have been golden in this matchup. Also, siding out Plated was a big mistake; you were making his Pyroclasms better. Finally, bad break on your opponent actually being able to activate Vedalken Shackles against you. Obviously, if you have Crystalline or Harmonic, the Shackles are useless against you.

yes, you assumed wright, UGR it was. And indeed plated should have stayed in. 4 Crystalline and 4 Harmonics, but i drew only 1 Crystalline (countered).....damn

Goblins: Bad break on having to settle for a draw in this matchup. He was very lucky to get a Lackey through against you in game 1, and it sounds like he slow-played you in the following games. Did you call a judge? Btw, I have one word for you: Worship.

I couldn't made top 8 anyway, and i decided to drop after this match, so i just lett him think and think and think....


I agree with most of your final comments. Tormod's Crypt > Jotun's Grunt. Chain of Vapor doesn't belong. Savannah is good. Not sure about removing Meddling Mage from the sideboard, though. I could see cutting to 3, but not taking them out completely.


As you all can see, I'm still pushing for maindeck Worship. I think it saves a lot of game 1s. I was play-testing with two of them in the maindeck, and I was amazed at how often they were coming up, so I decided to do an experiment. Yesterday, I played a set of 24 games against mono-red Vial Goblins, with just 1 Worship maindeck. The results:

Win/Loss: 16-8 in favor of Meat Hooks
Games won with Worship lock: 8
Games where I drew Worship but couldn't get it down: 2 (lost both of those)

With just one Worship in the deck, I still drew into it over 40% of the time! And when I did draw it, I was able to get it down 80% of the those times, despite having to contend with Gobbo's 4 Wastelands + 4 Ports. Also, I would say it improves the win percentage against Goblins by a good 10%. Now, I realize I only tested one matchup, but I think these results will translate over to a lot of other matchups. While it isn't good against things like Solidarity and Iggy Pop, neither is stuff like Talon Sliver #3 or Engineered Explosives (the cards I would suggest cutting to make room for 1-2 Worships + land #18), so those matchups won't be adversely affected by the addition of Worship.


A first win against Goblins and Thresh is game for us i think, so i agree that Worship should be maindeck. I am going to put one in. Thanks Volt.

Pinder
10-30-2006, 07:15 PM
I think that 2 MD Worship is probably the way to go, honestly. I just don't know about seeing it that often with only 1. And as we all know, I hate one-ofs unless it's a toolbox thing. This isn't.

Also, if EE isn't in the main, it definitely needs to be in the board. I ran an EE-less (both maindeck and sideboard) list last friday with 2 Worship instead, and there were a number of times where EE would have simply come in handy. I'm not saying that it's always super great game one, but where it is, it's also super great game 2. I would stick a couple in the SB.

Also, is Crypt really greater than Grunt? I would have assumed otherwise, but I suppose that being able to remove whatever's there right now as opposed to removing a lot more over the course of time has it's advantages. And it actually removes them, instead of giving them back threats and such. Crypt is probably worse than Grunt against Thresh, but it hits a wider variety across the board, at least.

Volt
10-30-2006, 08:29 PM
I think that 2 MD Worship is probably the way to go, honestly. I just don't know about seeing it that often with only 1. And as we all know, I hate one-ofs unless it's a toolbox thing. This isn't.

I wasn't really recommending Worship as a one-of. I tried that just as an experiment. I must say I was slightly surprised at how effective it was, though.


Also, is Crypt really greater than Grunt? I would have assumed otherwise, but I suppose that being able to remove whatever's there right now as opposed to removing a lot more over the course of time has it's advantages. And it actually removes them, instead of giving them back threats and such. Crypt is probably worse than Grunt against Thresh, but it hits a wider variety across the board, at least.

Exactly. Tormod's Crypt is consistently good against any deck that likes to abuse its graveyard. Grunt is a bit better in a few matchups, but significantly worse in many others. I really think Tormod's Crypt serves this deck better.

Jankwolf
10-30-2006, 10:17 PM
Hey Pinder, you should tell them what your beloved slivers lost too...Mono Black Rats Baby! Oh Yeah!...I still pulled the win outa my ass even under three Medaling Mages! Dont get me wrong though, the match against you was really really tough and i enjoyed it greatly...Slivers is a contender and i specifically made my deck to win against the top decks in the format...Anywho i should be posting Rats2.0 here in a few days...Enjoy the Read...

xsockmonkeyx
10-31-2006, 04:52 AM
Round four:
Bastiaan Boel playing Threshold WGR

Game 1: He had Threshold and I was low on live until I gained control. The direct damage was too much.

In: 4 Grunt/4 Meddling Mage
Out: 4 Daze/ 4 plated I believe

Game 2: I had two Grunts and a Sliver, but he had a Vedalken Shackles and took a Grunt from me. He also played Werebear with Threshold. I didnít got the Harmonic SliverÖdamn. Lost that game too.





UGW Thresh: While I feel this matchup is slightly favorable for Meat Hooks, you do run the risk of running out of time (and having to settle for a draw) if you don't win the first game, which is something I've warned against repeatedly. Obviously, winning the first game therefore becomes very important in this matchup. My suggestion? Maindeck Worship. Thresh usually has no maindeck answer for it. Btw, I don't think siding out Plateds is a good call against Thresh.

UGR Thresh: You wrote WGR Thresh, but I'm going to assume that was a typo. Once again, maindeck Worship would have been golden in this matchup. Also, siding out Plated was a big mistake; you were making his Pyroclasms better. Finally, bad break on your opponent actually being able to activate Vedalken Shackles against you. Obviously, if you have Crystalline or Harmonic, the Shackles are useless against you.



I think there is a misconception about the number of slivers you can afford to play in your deck. The number cannot be f'cked around with too much because in order for slivers to be effective there needs to be a certain critical mass of them in play. This is because you need both quantity and quality of slivers in order for their sliver ability to work properly. This also is a good reason for including a one drop in the deck (Plated).

Against UGW thresh siding out slivers is like handing them the game. You're playing essentially the same deck except for the Slivers (duh) so when you side out the plated sliver its like putting a please kick me sign on your back. If you are going to win this matchup its is because you will swarm them with your many slivers while they have a goose or two and/or a bear. If you are going to side in Jotun Grunt then leave the sliver count relatively alone(maybe side out 2) to ensure that your sliver strategy retains its quality and quantity.

BTW, against combo decks where the size of the clock is inconsequential then by all means side your slivers out.

Pinder
10-31-2006, 01:39 PM
Hey Pinder, you should tell them what your beloved slivers lost too...Mono Black Rats Baby! Oh Yeah!...I still pulled the win outa my ass even under three Medaling Mages! Dont get me wrong though, the match against you was really really tough and i enjoyed it greatly...Slivers is a contender and i specifically made my deck to win against the top decks in the format...Anywho i should be posting Rats2.0 here in a few days...Enjoy the Read...

Yes, I lost to a mono-black version of rats (is there any other version of rats?)...that ran duress, ostracize (at least in game 2), and hymn. This should not be surprising. Discard = bad news for us). And the fact that nearly all I drew in terms of creatures that game were those Magi might have had something to do with it, too :tongue:. And I still won a game, you know.

But yeah, look for rats on the horizon. Skull Collector + Chittering Rats is some good.

Maverick676
10-31-2006, 05:07 PM
First of all props to swordoffireandice for taking this deck to a big tournament. It's too bad you didn't do so well.

Anyway I thought I'd take some time to point out some common sideboarding misconceptions that people seem to have a lot with this deck.


First round I played against Steven Geurts with Threshold UWG.

In: 4x Jotul Grunt and 2x Meddling Mage
Out: 4x Daze and 2 Plated Sliver

In this matchup your creatures are generally superior to theirs because of plated and muscle sliver. Also this deck only has 8 counterspells so there are just about zero situations when you would want to side daze out.

In the UGW thresh matchup I find siding out swords for mages to be an effective tatic. Your first mage should name swords and your second mage should name mystic enforcer. Jotun grunt is of course a good card to side in and I would have sided out chain of vapor and at least one harmonic for 2 of him.


Round two:
Jeroen Bertelink playing a Rifter deck:

In: 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Jotun Grunt and 1 Stifle
Out: 4 Daze, 4 STP and ?

Again there are very few situations in which you would side out countespells, and this is not one of them. Jotun grunt isn't such a great idea in this matchup since your opponent can dig through his deck quite effectively, so recycling his removal cards for him becomes a serious problem.



Round three:
Martijn van der Vaart playing (Nausea?) Iggy Pop.

In: 4 Meddling/4 Grunt/ 1 Stifle
Out: 4 STP/ 1 Chain of Vapor/and I believe 2 plated and 2 talon Sliver.


This is pretty much the proper way to sideboard for this matchup. However 3 talon and one winged sliver should be removed instead of plated sliver in this matchup. Plated sliver is strictly better since they are all 1 power slivers with irrelevant abilities.



Round five;
Ronald Groenstege playing Life From the Loam/cycling lands/wasteland/werebear/terravore/solitary confinement

In: Meddling Mage Jotun Grunt
Out: Daze and plated and Chain of Vapor?


He plays solitary confinement so two more harmonic slivers should come in from the board.


Round 6:
All something from Australia playing Goblins.

In: 4 Tivadarís Crusade 1 Stifle
Out: 4 Daze and 1 Chain of Vapor


Daze is often quite effective against goblins and should not be sided out. I have played this matchup more than any other, and I can tell you that something like Tivadar's Crusade is not nescessary especially since it requires WW. Against goblins needing WW forces you to fetch duals when you should be fetching your three basic lands. Something like absolute law would have been much better in this slot.

Volt
10-31-2006, 06:12 PM
Excellent comments, Mav.

A couple remarks about the UGW Thresh matchup that I'd like to add:

- There's actually a very strong chance that the Thresh player will name StP with the first Meddling Mage he plays (in games 2 & 3). All the more reason to side your own out. Otoh, if he names Crystalline Sliver with his first Mage, you know he probably kept his StPs in.

- At some point in games 2 & 3, it may actually make sense to name Meddling Mage with your Meddling Mage! i.e. if it's your second or third one, and your opponent hasn't played one yet (but you know he has them in his deck). Virtual card advantage.

Pinder
10-31-2006, 11:10 PM
I will admit that sideboarding with this deck can be hard, as you typically want everything you have and more. A few more comments on the SB in general.

Your sideboard should mostly be focused on the UGw Thresh matchup. You already beat Goblins G1 (even more so with 2 MD Worship), and 4 Meddling Mage is all you really need to bring in against Combo (obviously siding out StP, as it is useless here). This leaves you with 11 SB slots to fiddle with. What cards to run here is pretty subjective, but a few suggestions:

-Tormod's Crypt. It's almost as good as Grunt against Thresh, and so much better than Grunt against the rest of the field. It nullifies Flash of Insight in Solidarity, and sort of cripples IGGy's gameplan in response to an IGG (or Echoing Truth or whatever). It also has some minor relevance against Truffle Shuffle if you kill your own graveyard in response to Haunting Echoes.
-Engineered Explosives. These were originally in the MD, and they're fantastic at killing Mongoose, as well as cleaning up various random Enchantments and such. Also great against random aggro (like Apeshit), as you can wipe the whole table once they get all their 1-drops out. If not in the main, definitely in the board.
-Pithing Needle. Come on now, it's Pithing Needle.
-Harmonic Sliver. This doesn't really deal with Thresh a ton (it hits Worship, I guess), but it's really good in other matchups that aren't quite so favorable for us such as rAffinity, Enchantress, and to a lesser extent AS.

And to reinforce some ideas, here is a list of (what I consider) Tier 1 decks and what cards are dead against them in G1/2:

Goblins
Well, nothing really. Your G1 against them is a lot like a healthy round of butt sex. You should probably still find something to take out for Needle against them, though.

Thresh
Swords is generally useless G2, as they side out theirs for Mages, and you should do the same. Oh, and Stifle is great against their fetchlands in every game, and I'm an idiot.

Solidarity
Swords is obvious here, as they have no creatures. You can take these our for Crypts. Also, since you don't need to win any combat steps, you can safely take out your Talons and Winged for 4 Meddling Mages. That way you aren't decreasing your threat density, and increasing your clock as Magi have more relevant abilities and fatter bodies than either Talon or Winged.

Iggy Pop
See Solidarity, as it is essentially the same matchup. If you have Chain of Vapor in either the board or the main, make sure it's in the MD G2 as Chaining a turn 0 Leyline makes this matchup a ton easier. Also, Worship is totally dead against their ph34rs0m3 l1fel0ss p0werz. Side them out for Harmonics to hit their Leylines as well as increasing your clock.

Volt
11-01-2006, 02:12 AM
Thresh
Swords is generally useless G2, as they side out theirs for Mages, and you should do the same. Also, Stifle is generally dead G1 and can be taken out for Crypts in G2 as well.


Actually, I wouldn't side out Stifle against Thresh. Stifling an early fetch land can gain you a huge amount of tempo. Also, many Thresh decks run Engineered Explosives. I would side out Swords and Dazes before Stifle.

Pinder
11-01-2006, 07:18 PM
Actually, I wouldn't side out Stifle against Thresh. Stifling an early fetch land can gain you a huge amount of tempo. Also, many Thresh decks run Engineered Explosives. I would side out Swords and Dazes before Stifle.


Oh yeah...I'm dumb. You probably shouldn't side out Dazes either. This might just be one of those times where you have to cut something good for something better. Unfortunately, we want Crypt, but but what would we side out for it G2?

Volt
11-01-2006, 10:20 PM
Oh yeah...I'm dumb. You probably shouldn't side out Dazes either. This might just be one of those times where you have to cut something good for something better. Unfortunately, we want Crypt, but but what would we side out for it G2?

After StP, Daze really does make the most sense to side out. It's an especially easy choice if you're going 2nd.

Pinder
11-02-2006, 03:37 PM
Since the Thresh player is likely to start playing around Daze G2, you could be right about that. I just don't like the idea of siding out counterspells against the Aggro-Control matchup. We're sure there isn't anything better to take out?

Also, I updated the list (just the list, not the rest of the primer) to reflect the list with 2 MD Worships and 18 land.

Maverick676
11-02-2006, 03:48 PM
For the UGW thresh matchup you do not take out daze. With the help of stifle you can seriously hinder their manabase, rendering them unable to play around daze.

Pinder
11-02-2006, 10:57 PM
I don't think siding out Dazes is a good idea against Thresh either, but looking at the list, the only things we can even think about siding out would be either Daze or Stifle. I guess it's just a matter of which one you think would be more useful in game 2.

Jankwolf
11-03-2006, 12:23 AM
In the arguement about sideing out daze vs stifle...Well look what each of them do against threash....Stifle, you can stifle fetches...from my view point that is about it...oh and stifle is good perhaps late game and maybe early game against fetches...
Now daze, is only good early game. It only works if they are tapped out and dont have free mana. Sideing out daze would be better than sideing out stifle...if i'm missing anything please let me know...

Volt
11-03-2006, 01:28 PM
In the arguement about sideing out daze vs stifle...Well look what each of them do against threash....Stifle, you can stifle fetches...from my view point that is about it...oh and stifle is good perhaps late game and maybe early game against fetches...
Now daze, is only good early game. It only works if they are tapped out and dont have free mana. Sideing out daze would be better than sideing out stifle...if i'm missing anything please let me know...

Nope, you're right. Stifle hits fetch-lands and potentially Engineered Explosives, which a lot of Thresh decks run. Even in the late game, stifling a fetch-land can be good, especially if they're cracking it right after a Brainstorm. Make them draw those crappy cards they just put back on top of their library. Daze is okay if you're on the play, and poor if you're on the draw. In either case, Daze gets progressively worse as the game goes on, and the Thresh MU tends to go a long time.

Pinder
11-06-2006, 06:55 PM
Tournament report! Went to the local tourney with the list on the first page, albeit with a nuetered sideboard due to lack of Needles and Exsplosives. I only have 15 minutes, so I'll be brief.

Round 1: IGGy Pop (Durahan)
Game 1: He actually won this one before I could beat him down. Oops.
Out: 4 StP, 3 Talon Sliver
In: 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Harmonic Sliver

Game 2: Mages on Tendrils coupled with some beats and counterspells bring this one in.
Game 3: 2 early game Harmonics kill his Leyline, his Defense Grid, and a Lotus Petal. He tries to go off, but I keep getting back Force of Wills for the win.

1-0

Round 2: UR Counterbalance (Ookami)
Game 1: Mana Flood. I lose.
Game 2: Mana Screw. I lose. :rolleyes:.

1-1

Round 3: GW Slide
Game 1: Wrath of God + Astral Slide + Eternal Witness is bad for us. Real bad.
Out: 3 Stifle, 2 Something
In: 3 Harmonic Sliver, 2 Pithing Needle (I only had 2 :cry:)

Game 2: I nab his Slide with a Harmonic and Needle Eternal Dragon, but he manages to hardcast 3(!) Eternal Witnesses for a total of 5(!) Wrath of Gods. Bad news.

1-2

I dropped at this point, because I wasn't going to win anything.

So, in summary, this deck beats up the Tier 1 pretty good, but apparently rogue hosers are no good for us.

Blair Phoenix
11-07-2006, 01:09 AM
Tournament report! Went to the local tourney with the list on the first page, albeit with a nuetered sideboard due to lack of Needles and Exsplosives. I only have 15 minutes, so I'll be brief.

Round 1: IGGy Pop (Durahan)
Game 1: I counter his stuff and apply the beats, taking G1.
Out: 4 StP, 3 Talon Sliver
In: 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Harmonic Sliver

Game 2: 2 early game Harmonics kill his Leyline, his Defense Grid, and a Lotus Petal. He tries to go off, but I keep getting back Force of Wills for the win.

1-0

Round 2: Mono-U Counterbalance (Ookami)
Game 1: Mana Flood. I lose.
Game 2: Mana Screw. I lose. :rolleyes:.

1-1

Round 3: GW Slide
Game 1: Wrath of God + Astral Slide + Eternal Witness is bad for us. Real bad.
Out: 3 Stifle, 2 Something
In: 3 Harmonic Sliver, 2 Pithing Needle (I only had 2 :cry:)

Game 2: I nab his Slide with a Harmonic and Needle Eternal Dragon, but he manages to hardcast 3(!) Eternal Witnesses for a total of 5(!) Wrath of Gods. Bad news.

1-2

I dropped at this point, because I wasn't going to win anything.

So, in summary, this deck beats up the Tier 1 pretty good, but apparently rogue hosers are no good for us.

Shouldn't you have sided in M Mages against G/W slide? A mage naming Wrath of god would have really helped their. Astral slide targets, so Crystalline should have been able to deal with it no?

kicks_422
11-07-2006, 08:40 AM
Those midgame bombs are the perfect example of why I advocate playing 2 Counterspells in the main... If your opponent plays a crippling spell (WoG, Pyroclasm, etc.) or a pesky creature (Ascetic, Shade, etc.), I feel better knowing that I MIGHT just draw that Counterspell after I Brainstorm... :tongue:

Volt
11-07-2006, 09:15 PM
Those midgame bombs are the perfect example of why I advocate playing 2 Counterspells in the main... If your opponent plays a crippling spell (WoG, Pyroclasm, etc.) or a pesky creature (Ascetic, Shade, etc.), I feel better knowing that I MIGHT just draw that Counterspell after I Brainstorm... :tongue:

Counterspell is fine, but the best answer by far against control decks is Armageddon.

Pinder
11-08-2006, 08:51 PM
Shouldn't you have sided in M Mages against G/W slide? A mage naming Wrath of god would have really helped their. Astral slide targets, so Crystalline should have been able to deal with it no?

Actually, the reason I didn't side in Mages is that Slide can target them, so if I named something, he could just Slide it and play it that turn anyway. It wouldn't slow him down too much. Of course, I realize now that a Mage naming Slide might have been nice...

As far as Crystalline beating Slide, you're also right there. But I wasn't worried about him Sliding my creatures. The reason I lost game 1 was because, despite the fact that I countered the first 3, him being able to Slide out Eternal Witness to keep recurring Wrath of God was just brutal. When he can play the same WoG 5 times in a game, it's fairly crushing.

Tosh
11-08-2006, 09:24 PM
tsk, tsk... posting during class pinder.

Jay informed me earlier that he actually won game 1 on Friday and also Ookami was playing U/R Counterbalance... nub :tongue:.

Pinder
11-08-2006, 09:57 PM
Klaan, if I didn't know you personally, your blatant disregard for the PM function would lead me to assume that you were from Texas :tongue:.

But yes, I mistreported a tad. Jay (Durahan) actually won the game where I didn't have my pesky Mages.

Upon further recollection, Ookami's counterbalance deck was UR. I suppose that would explain the lightning bolts :laugh:.

Still didn't change the results, though.

Kokusho17
11-12-2006, 01:11 PM
deleted

Kokusho17
11-12-2006, 01:13 PM
Tourney Report.

I went to my local Legacy Tournement with this deck

lands:
1 plains
1 forest
1 island
4 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
4 tundra
3 tropical island
1 savannah

creatures:
4 crystalline sliver
4 muscle sliver
3 plated sliver
2 talon sliver
2 winged sliver
1 harmonic sliver

spells:
4 brainstorm
4 serum visions
4 FOW
4 daze
3 stifle
4 STP
2 eladamri's call

sideboard:
4 meddling mages
3 Tormods crypt
2 Counterspell (iffy on these)
2 Jotun Grunt
2 eladamri's call
2 Harmonic sliver

Eledamri's call was a beast in this tourney fetching whatever creature i needed.

match one: 1.5 Dragonstorm
game 1 and 2: fow the dragonstorm and stifle storm *nuff said

Match two: gobos with white splash (no vial)
game 1: plated sliver first turn and second turn crystalline third Muscle
game 2: in 3 mages out harmonic and 2 visions. maged piledriver then played 4 slivers and on fifth turn played winged and flew over for the win. ended the game at 5 life

match 3: RG Survival
game 1 and 2: called(eladamri's) up harmonic and said goodbye to survival. crystalline, muslce and talon sliver killed almost any creature he had

match 4: was against a homebrew deck and was a easy victory

4-0 record

Kokusho17
11-12-2006, 01:14 PM
deleted

swordoffireandice
11-13-2006, 10:28 AM
Great going Kokusho17!

Against Gobos:
game 1: plated sliver first turn and second turn crystalline third Muscle

This is game against Goblins! I have tested last week again against Goblins and the Crystalline is very important. Every game were i had a Crystalline on the table i won the match.

As for the Eladamri's call, i have put in two more Slivers instead of the Call. I feel i want to be more agressive. This way i can play a Sliver instead of waiting a turn and find a Sliver. The Brainstorms and Visions should be enough to find the Sliver i want.

(In general)
I have another suggestion for the sideboard against Goblins, the Tivadar's Crusade didn't work out as i hoped they would. I am thinking of:
Honorable Passage (hp):rolleyes:

They are a great finisher as the can redirect a Piledriver.....:laugh:

Two HP in the SB makes sure that when they have a huge piledriver, a HP is almost always in our hand. They cannot counter it with a Red Elemental Blast!
It is just a suggestion guys, so let me know what you think.

Volt
11-13-2006, 11:11 AM
(In general)
I have another suggestion for the sideboard against Goblins, the Tivadar's Crusade didn't work out as i hoped they would. I am thinking of:
Honorable Passage (hp):rolleyes:

They are a great finisher as the can redirect a Piledriver.....:laugh:

Two HP in the SB makes sure that when they have a huge piledriver, a HP is almost always in our hand. They cannot counter it with a Red Elemental Blast!
It is just a suggestion guys, so let me know what you think.

Honorable Passage is solid, no doubt. Samite Ministration might be better, though.

Not to sound like a broken record, but... Have you tried maindeck Worships? You have to bump up the land count to 18 to make it work, but I've found that Crystalline + Worship wins a lot of games, especially against goblins.

EDIT: Btw, I have a couple other fairly radical suggestions for changes to the deck, but I want to wait until I've tested them more thoroughly before discussing them here.

mikekelley
11-13-2006, 11:42 AM
I just played some guy with maindeck worships.

You should do that if you want people to hate you.

Kokusho17
11-13-2006, 11:50 AM
Eladamri's call is something that i usually play at the end of my opponents turn i dont generally play it during my turn unless i need to or have the mana to cast it and the creature plus it fetches the lone MD Harmonic. visions and brainstorm most of the time get me what i need. having 2 calls in the MD just insures that you can get what you need faster if your draws arent helping you.

as for my sideboard i think im getting rid of the counterspells and adding worship. i dont have a lot of people playing goblins any more where im from its just that one guy came in that hasnt been at the store in over a year.
i like honorable passage better than the samite but i dont plan to use either cause of my no golbins meta. i tried worship MD but i like better as SB cause i would need to cut the calls in order to add workship but that aint gonna happen cause of the way calls have been a MVP for the last 20 games testing and the last 4 in the tournement. i should have more tournement reports in the next couple of weeks if you all want more

Volt
11-13-2006, 12:27 PM
Eladamri's call is something that i usually play at the end of my opponents turn i dont generally play it during my turn unless i need to or have the mana to cast it and the creature plus it fetches the lone MD Harmonic. visions and brainstorm most of the time get me what i need. having 2 calls in the MD just insures that you can get what you need faster if your draws arent helping you.

as for my sideboard i think im getting rid of the counterspells and adding worship. i dont have a lot of people playing goblins any more where im from its just that one guy came in that hasnt been at the store in over a year.
i like honorable passage better than the samite but i dont plan to use either cause of my no golbins meta. i tried worship MD but i like better as SB cause i would need to cut the calls in order to add workship but that aint gonna happen cause of the way calls have been a MVP for the last 20 games testing and the last 4 in the tournement. i should have more tournement reports in the next couple of weeks if you all want more

Sure, bring on the tournament reports! I've only made it to my own local tournament a couple times within the last month, but I went 6-1 in matches, losing only to a RGB survival deck.

Regarding maindeck Worships... If I were taking this deck to a big tournament, I would expect to see a lot of Goblins and Threshold. Worship is terrific against those decks, particularly in game 1. Of course, you should always tweak the deck for your local metagame.

We keep coming back to Eladamri's Call. To rehash previous discussions, I like to run a single EC, but I don't think it's hugely important to the deck. You can run anywhere from 0-2 of them and do fine.

Kokusho17
11-13-2006, 01:25 PM
I love Eladamri's Call. thats why i have 4 between MD and SB.

I just have to work on my Sideboard more as i dont think the deck im running needs to be changed as my win percentage is over 80% :smile: (keeping in mind no gobos/solidarity/iggy:wink: yet....). I believe that i only need to change my sideboard a bit such as adding Needles but this is such a fun deck to get under peoples skins:tongue:

Pinder
11-13-2006, 01:49 PM
I could go either way on EC. I've honestly found them to be less than great, but then again, that was before we ran a very toolbox-ish 1 Harmonic in the main (I actually run 2, but whatever).

And it's great to see people start picking this deck up. Keep the tournament reports coming! I should have one this coming friday, because last friday I split for first playing Friggorid (it was wierd, I know). I'll be back to Meathooks later in the week.



I just played some guy with maindeck worships.

You should do that if you want people to hate you.


:laugh: True, but we're aiming to win, not for people to like us a whole bunch :wink:.

TheDarkshineKnight
11-13-2006, 01:59 PM
Don't you know that victory is infintinely more important than any sort of friendship is? Honestly, some people...

swordoffireandice
11-13-2006, 02:26 PM
Honorable Passage is solid, no doubt. Samite Ministration might be better, though.

Not to sound like a broken record, but... Have you tried maindeck Worships? You have to bump up the land count to 18 to make it work, but I've found that Crystalline + Worship wins a lot of games, especially against goblins.

EDIT: Btw, I have a couple other fairly radical suggestions for changes to the deck, but I want to wait until I've tested them more thoroughly before discussing them here.




I am going to try maindeck worship Volt. I will put one in. I am starting with one. I have read the following and i think one will do:

Adrian Sullivan wrote an article some time ago about singletons in Tog.
>He inserted a small piece of paper into a card sleeve and noted how
>soon he saw that singleton just using regular draw of Brainstorm plus
>Fetchland and Intuition/AK. What he discovered was that by turn 5 he
>always found the singleton. That's how powerful Brainstorm plus
>Fetchland is as a draw engine.


I will keep taking this deck to tournaments here in Holland.
see you.

Maverick676
11-13-2006, 03:20 PM
I am going to try maindeck worship Volt. I will put one in. I am starting with one. I have read the following and i think one will do:

Adrian Sullivan wrote an article some time ago about singletons in Tog.
>He inserted a small piece of paper into a card sleeve and noted how
>soon he saw that singleton just using regular draw of Brainstorm plus
>Fetchland and Intuition/AK. What he discovered was that by turn 5 he
>always found the singleton. That's how powerful Brainstorm plus
>Fetchland is as a draw engine.


I will keep taking this deck to tournaments here in Holland.
see you.

No that shows the power of Intuition/AK as a draw engine. Seriously folks, singletons without tutors to fetch them are bad. Especially in a deck with no actual card draw. So people, stop being retarded and run 2 worships if you are going to have them in the main.

EDIT: as for a sideboard against gobs, the two best options would be absolute law (because the only thing better than untargetable slivers are untargetable invincible slivers) or chill. Although I don't see why we need much of a sideboard against gobs, they are easily our best matchup. Also Hydroblast is another good option.

Nytemare
11-14-2006, 04:07 AM
Last sunday i went to a monthly german Legacy Tournement with 63 players.
Well, I think my results were not very good, I went 2-1-3 and made no real notes about the matches, but I will try to tell something about all of them.

First my list.
It was a little bit suboptimal because I didnt have some Duals and no Pithing Needles but I was very suprised about the fact that I never got color screwed and wanted the Needles only in one match.

//Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

//Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

//Counterspells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle

//Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Other
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Eladamri's Call


///Sideboard
4 Engineered Explosives
1 Talon Sliver
2 Angel's Grace
4 Meddling Mages
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Worship

For those who don't know, the german meta is very very random. We have a hand full of Tier 1 decks, many Tier 2 plus a few Tier 3/Fun decks so it is hard to prepare for..


Ok, now the games.

Round 1 - Terrageddon

That was a pretty tough but in my opinion winnable matchup. I never played against the deck b4 (i think the decklist was pretty much the same as the dutch champs winner)

I went 2-1 and don't remember very much of the game. I sworded some Terravores and stiffled some Fetchis and Wastelands which gained me enough tempo advantage to finally kill him.

1-0

Round 2 - Rifter

I never got paired against a Rifter before at one of our bigger events and I wasn't very happy about the fact that I have to play against it with this deck.
The matchup is just horrible. Our greatest enemy game 1 is humility.
If you get down a crystalline early in the game and start beating it is maybe winnable but still hard.
Game 1 he got down an early lightning rift but I managed to bring down some slivers to beat him down a bit. I stifled 2 DoJs and had to counter 2 Humilitys but then he hardcasted a Slice or Dice (sp? ^^) for the win. I never came back into the game and some minutes later we started g2.
Well..game 2 was even worse. Because rifter fears Solidarity/Spring Tide, his Sideboard is completely anti-blue. Now I had to manage his Boils and REBs, too.
Well..that one was jsut bad and I lost pretty fast.

After this round I thought the first time that I want to add Disenchants to the SB. Man I HATE Humility... ^^

1-1

Round 3 - U/B Reanimator

Well..I don't remember much about this. I won both games at one life because of some stupid blocking with Talon/Winged/Muscle Sliver against Akrome and Spirit of the Night..Would have been not that close if I hadn't forgotten to stiffle his fetchis twice.. ^^

2-1

Round 4 - Rw Vial Goblins

I lost this Round horrible to some mistakes + his answeres. He could StoP my first turn Plated Slivers against his Lackey, I thought Piledriver had haste and killed the wrong one and got shooted down from his Ringleader in the end.
Game two I got no counters and he got Engineered Explosives.... -.-

2-2

Round 5 - NQGwr (with Dryad)

Game 1 was pretty close but he managed to get enough creature/card advantage to win. Game 2 it was nearly the same, but a little favored for me. We layed down several Meddling Mages, some creatures, I managed to beat him down to 1 while I was at 15 or so and then we layed down creatures for several turn because the creature count was even, I had no winged/talon sliver and he had Meddlings for both of them. Well..I drawed into a StoP and targeted his Winged stopping Mage. He tapped 2 lands and Dazed, in response I hardcasted Force which he responded with an hardcast Force, too. I Dazed it (I had 2 mana open at that time for the winged on my hand) and he dazed again. Well, I showed my seccond Daze and he his 3rd one..I just felt f*cking bad in this moment but then I realised that I didnt play a land this turn so I payed the Mana for the Daze with one of my 2 open Lands.
Sword resolved -> Mage dead -> I wantd to lay down a Land and he just said NO!
"You dropped a land already and can't do that!"
Well, I knew that I didn't because we discarded for several turns OR dropped lands if we drew them and I knew that I got my Swords from the top of the library. After some discussing we called for a judge and he decided in my favor.
He was pissed, we had only one minute left and so no third game.
The funny thing is, if he hadn't hardcasted the force he just could have payed all my Dazes and I hadn't won in this Round.. ^^

2-1-2

Round 6 - Rw Vial Goblins again

Match 1 I started damn fast. First turn Plated, seccond turn Crystalline, thirs winged, 4th muscle or something like that. That got him down really fast.
Game 2 I saw some early explosives again while I had no answer.. -.-
Game 3 I drew just one land (plains) and some cantrips so I took mulligan to 5 -> the new hand had a Fetchi and some Cantrips again so I kept it.
I dropped it, searched some blue nonbasic, casted Serum Visions and found no land. He dropped Wasteland, killed my land and I never found a land again.


There was a round 7 but I dropped because it was a long way home and I was pretty tired.

After all, I think I could have been much better, made some mistakes but overall I don't think the Deck is competitive in the german meta without several changes. At first I want to took out the explosives, I found them not really usefull against any deck. I clearly have to get my hands on a playset of needles and I really want to play Disenchants in the Sideboard.
I didn't foudn the meddling Mages that impressive too. Most decks where I needed them, my op had enough answers to just make them useless..
Plated Sliver agaisnt Goblins is very nice, but sucks without counterbackup because they have Stop very very often.
Worship in the Sideboard sucky, too, because all my opps boarded in Enchantment hate against the fact that they didn't see any at my side.
I'm thinking about AEther Vial again because its damn hard to play around counters and Meddling Mages so they might be viable at least in our meta.

Maverick676
11-14-2006, 12:47 PM
While I do appreciate people taking this deck to tournaments, It doesn't help our testing results at all if people won't play ideal lists. For example, why is eladamri's call in any of these decklists? We have already tested and discussed this card to death. It is much better to play more slivers instead of calls. With the number of cantrips this deck runs finding slivers should never be a problem.

Also I see some really odd cards in people's sideboards, like Angel's Grace. WTF!? is that card for? It won't stop a solidarity player unless they are incompetent (in which case you should win anyway), It does diddly squat against any tendrils based combo deck. The only deck this card really hampers is a deck such as 2 land belcher, in which case needle is infinitely more desirable. Also 2 disenchants should be played in the board to deal with problem enchantments like humility and the like.

Nytemare
11-14-2006, 01:13 PM
Well..if you had really read what I wrote you would have noticed why I used 2 Angel's Grace. The next point is that I looked through the whole damn thread and didn't saw any discussion about Disenchants. The same goes for the Call, some ppl say it sucky, some say its cool. I found it pretty usefull sometimes where I definately needed a special sliver and not "any random extra sliver".

Pinder
11-14-2006, 02:00 PM
Alrighty, I'm going to try and put this whole Call vs. No Call thing to rest.

Nytemare, most of the discussion of Eladamri's Call is from the old list in N&D. Check it out if you want Mav to seem slightly more sane. No guarantees, though.

The thing with Call is, it's good. We had it in the list for the longest time (and Volt still runs them) because of that. We're not saying that it's useless, or bad. However, when you start getting down to the really fine tuning of a deck, it doesn't become a question of what's good or bad for the deck, but what's better or best for the deck. When you get down to the nitty gritty, sometimes you have to take out something good for something better. Eladamri's Call is good, but is it better than, say, Engineered Explosives, or Worship, or Stifle? I would say no, but ultimately that's up to whoever is playing the deck. Also, a bit of custimization for the meta never hurt anyone. If Worship in the main isn't working out or if you don't see a lot of Goblins in your meta, then by all means put it in the board and run Call. And don't mind Mav, he hasn't had his pills yet today :tongue:.

But seriously man, Angel's Grace? I'm not sure if there's an excuse for that one :wink:.

Jankwolf
11-15-2006, 02:58 AM
Now for the finishing blow...Meathooks seems like a deck that has been carefully balanced between creatures and control. Call only screws it up, seriously. Look at it this way, All the list i have seen that ran call run less of a creature base(creatures are as much needed as the control). This will leave you defensless when the creatures run low, or you wont have the creature base to finish the game as quickly as possible...No there is the flip side to this as well. Take out the control aspect for a tutor. That seem bad from the start. You are takeing one of the few edges that this fine tuned deck has and limiting it. Now a third view. You are useing call to get critters yes, but with a limited mana supply that slivers has, it is only setting you back a turn thus, slowing down your clock. Slivers has enough draw/counters/removal/creatures to get the job done when piloted right. Trust me ive played against it countless times, and there is no need for a tutor slot...If you go to a tourni with your own homebrew of slivers dont bother posting it unless you take mav's and pinder's decklist...That is the only way to help them improve their prodigy. The only thing these homebrew decklists have proven from results is that we shouldnt use a few named cards. Which has already been discussed in the thread and the ideas have been thrown out.(Said cards being...i dont know...ELDAMRI'S CALL for instance) If they dont run it in their build, THEY HAVE GOOD REASON FOR IT, AND MAYBE YOU ALL SHOULD LISTEN TO THEM BECAUSE THEY CREATED THE DAMN DECK!!!!)

Volt
11-15-2006, 11:49 AM
I don't like the tone of the last few posts. Let's not discourage people from posting results or trying deck lists that differ slightly from the Mav/Pinder version.

I'll say it again... I think running precisely 1 EC is a good thing, but not crucial to the deck.

Earlier, I hinted that I had a couple of other fairly radical suggestions for changes to the deck. They're not really suggestions at this point, so much as theories that I am working to prove/disprove. I'm going to share them now for (calm, rational) discussion:

Theory #1: This deck doesn't need Daze. We already have cheap/free counterspells in the form of Stifle and FoW with which to disrupt our opponent's game plan.

Theory #2: Talon Sliver is unnecessary. Plated Sliver serves largely the same purpose, while being cheaper. Also, maindeck Worship answers the same sort of things that Talon Sliver answers, only more effectively.

Let the fun begin. Only, please don't regurgitate the standard explanations that we have been giving for these cards to this point. I'm aware of the original reasoning for the inclusion of these cards. I would like to prove or disprove these theories through actual testing.

Nytemare
11-15-2006, 12:33 PM
Well..for Theory 1:

In t emost Metagames it is pretty good to have Daze. Only if you won't face many other countering decks and only very few Goblins/Goblins without early Swords (i no white splash) Daze would be a card to cut in my opinion.

Theory 2:

Well..the only time I really used Frist Striking Slivers was agaisnt the reanimator Deck but it wasn't really neccessary at all.
But whic slivers could we run instead?


And for the few posts b4..I really like the deck, the reason because I play a rather suboptimal Decklist is because I couldn't get some cards that fast and I really have read this whole thread. I didn't know about another one somewher else.
One comment to Angel's Grace: I played them to have a legal SB (15 cards) and never used them ;)

@Jankwolf:

Calm down man..I justwant to help a bit.
And for your last few words -> I think that is really a stupid way of thinking. Nothing against the decks' creators but where in the whole damn world is written down, that the ppl who invent something are the best to make it perfect??

Kokusho17
11-15-2006, 12:41 PM
i agree with volt about the tone of the last few posts.

@ jankwolf: ive found out that you dont need more than 16 creatures in this deck, more than that seems like overkill(to me anyways).

@ mav: no one really cares (aside from u) about the call(s) in the deck its just for meta preferances(in my case) cause at the moment i have no goblins or combo or even thresh in my meta and i see no need for worship in my maindeck. and pinder was saying that if you dont like dont play it. its just a metagame thing. so stop wining about it and move the hell on. however i do agree with angels grace. i mean come on.

Volt
11-15-2006, 12:44 PM
Theory 2:

Well..the only time I really used Frist Striking Slivers was agaisnt the reanimator Deck but it wasn't really neccessary at all.
But whic slivers could we run instead?


I would suggest something like the following:

4 Crystalline
4 Muscle
4 Plated
3 Winged
2 Harmonic

Jankwolf
11-15-2006, 01:22 PM
There wasnt any tone behind what i said...
If you knew my personality, like mav and pinder do, you'd understand that i wasnt mad or angery or serious in anyway...i was simply stateing a fact...I'm sorry if someone took what i said the wrong way...But my main focus here is to help mav/pinder succeed in their goal. I really want to see them go all the way with this. And With all the tourni reports, it shows the good and the bad...whether its optimal or not...But seriously...copy their decklist card for card and possibly add 2 worships and then test it out...

Pinder
11-15-2006, 02:22 PM
There wasnt any tone behind what i said...
If you knew my personality, like mav and pinder do, you'd understand that i wasnt mad or angery or serious in anyway...i was simply stateing a fact...I'm sorry if someone took what i said the wrong way...But my main focus here is to help mav/pinder succeed in their goal. I really want to see them go all the way with this. And With all the tourni reports, it shows the good and the bad...whether its optimal or not...But seriously...copy their decklist card for card and possibly add 2 worships and then test it out...

Please forgive the man. He has an odd way of being nice to people. For future reference Jankwolf, capital letters are associated with yelling, and yelling is associated with anger. Even if there wasn't a tone, there was more than enough there to imply one. Simmer down, man.



If you go to a tourni with your own homebrew of slivers dont bother posting it unless you take mav's and pinder's decklist


And I would just like to point out that this is most definitely not true. Please bother posting. Granted, the list is pretty good right now, so most changes probably aren't for the better, but regardless we want to hear about it. Why did you run this instead of that? How did it do? What decks was it useful against? All of this stuff is what we want to hear. And most importantly, we just want people to pick the deck up. The more people are playing this thing, the more tuning we can do.

Yes, it would be nice to have someone take our exact list to a big tourney somehwere and make the top 8 or something. But it would be even better if someone innovated on our list, made some slight changes, and won the whole thing. I'm not adverse to having people tweak our decklist either for their meta or just to try something new. If all we ever did was sit around and not change the decklist on the front page, we could pack up and go home now. Mav and I have already tested that list extensively. The reason the list is up there is to change it. Sometimes it's not always for the better, but regardless, it shows us which direction not to go. Change is good.

Unless that change involves Angel's Grace, of course :tongue:.


Now on to Volt's radical ideas:

@No Dazes: I could see that, I suppose. A lot of times Daze has been pretty dead. Keep in mind though, that ditching them cuts our counter base in half, and leaves us with only 4 Counterspells. Of course, we could always cut daze and add actual Counterspells instead. It would weaken our early game some, but it would strengthen our mid-to-late game. Regardless of what you stick in besides Daze to test, I think it should be some form of control (Engineered Explosives or some similar form of creature control).

@No Talon Slivers: Ummm...you're crazy. Just crazy enough to work, perhaps? Maybe not. I personally think that taking out Talon Sliver is a dumb move, but not for any reasons we haven't already discussed to death. I love the guy, but by all means, prove me wrong. I do think that if we stop running him though, we should look into Victual Sliver or some other 2 mana 2/2 to increase our fat. Or maybe (now that we have 18 land to support Worship and all) we should look into some higher costed Slivers, a la Essence Sliver. Having them as a 2 of couldn't really hurt, no?

Volt
11-15-2006, 02:40 PM
Now on to Volt's radical ideas:

@No Dazes: I could see that, I suppose. A lot of times Daze has been pretty dead. Keep in mind though, that ditching them cuts our counter base in half, and leaves us with only 4 Counterspells. Of course, we could always cut daze and add actual Counterspells instead. It would weaken our early game some, but it would strengthen our mid-to-late game. Regardless of what you stick in besides Daze to test, I think it should be some form of control (Engineered Explosives or some similar form of creature control).

@No Talon Slivers: Ummm...you're crazy. Just crazy enough to work, perhaps? Maybe not. I personally think that taking out Talon Sliver is a dumb move, but not for any reasons we haven't already discussed to death. I love the guy, but by all means, prove me wrong. I do think that if we stop running him though, we should look into Victual Sliver or some other 2 mana 2/2 to increase our fat. Or maybe (now that we have 18 land to support Worship and all) we should look into some higher costed Slivers, a la Essence Sliver. Having them as a 2 of couldn't really hurt, no?

Taking out Dazes would in fact give us room for a couple Counterspells and a couple of something else.

Shortly after I started playing with the maindeck Worships, I took out the Talons to make room for Winged #3, Harmonic #2, and EC #1. I wasn't really sure how it would work out, but so far I haven't been missing the Talons. I know I still beat Goblins pretty soundly (about 65-35, same as before). And the Talons never were all that great against combo and control, anyway.

Regarding Essence Sliver, I have tried it, and it was pretty meh. It's kind of a "win more" creature.

xsockmonkeyx
11-15-2006, 03:50 PM
Theory 2:

Well..the only time I really used Frist Striking Slivers was agaisnt the reanimator Deck but it wasn't really neccessary at all.
But whic slivers could we run instead?



Sidewinder is a Mtenda Herder(1/1 for 1 + flanking). What about Spinneret? Its a 2/2 for 2 and does something, I think. Victual Sliver is also 2/2 for 2 but actually does something, though.

If anything, this deck needs more slivers in play earlier. If it had the capability to develop the sliver game quicker then it could be beastly. This is because the sliver ability is like a virtual haste. You can have creatures in play already, cast a new one, and utilize the ability of the new sliver this turn. In short, more one drops would help.

Also if your going to be dropping a bunch of little slivers into play then the EC count should go up (or become a non-zero number). Calling up a sliver is now going to be more valuable if you already have a bunch of them in play.

Edit: If Talon Sliver is going out then Winged Sliver count should go. Its going to be your only way to break a stalemate and can randomly win you games.

Volt
11-15-2006, 04:42 PM
Sidewinder is a Mtenda Herder(1/1 for 1 + flanking). What about Spinneret? Its a 2/2 for 2 and does something, I think. Victual Sliver is also 2/2 for 2 but actually does something, though.

If anything, this deck needs more slivers in play earlier. If it had the capability to develop the sliver game quicker then it could be beastly. This is because the sliver ability is like a virtual haste. You can have creatures in play already, cast a new one, and utilize the ability of the new sliver this turn. In short, more one drops would help.

Also if your going to be dropping a bunch of little slivers into play then the EC count should go up (or become a non-zero number). Calling up a sliver is now going to be more valuable if you already have a bunch of them in play.

Edit: If Talon Sliver is going out then Winged Sliver count should go. Its going to be your only way to break a stalemate and can randomly win you games.

I'm not sure about Sidewinders, Spinnerets, and Victuals. I think the threat density is fine with 16-17 slivers. I'm not even sure the Talons should come out. This is just a theory, remember. :)

I definitely agree on the last point. If you cut the Talons, you need to run at least 3 Winged, which is what I'm doing.

xsockmonkeyx
11-15-2006, 05:01 PM
I offer this experimental list:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Sidewinder Sliver

2 Counterspell
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Eladamri's Call

3 Pithing Needle
4 Swords to Plowshares

The Pithing Needles are there in place of Stifle. With 7 one drops it is less likely that you will turn 1 stifle-fetch them.

Flame away!!

Pinder
11-15-2006, 05:07 PM
I would cut a Sidewinder from the list above, but otherwise it looks like it's worthy of some testing.

I also notice the 2 EC in the main, and yet no Harmonic, not even as a 1-of. I would put in Harmonic before I would put in Sidewinder if I had some way to tutor for it. That thing is just so useful. Of course, it doesn't play nicely with those maindeck Needles, but we could always change those back to being Stifles :wink:.

xsockmonkeyx
11-15-2006, 05:13 PM
My reasoning to Harmonic is that its a Sliver for 3 and is not something I want to have in the deck unless Im absolutely sure that its going to be advantageous i.e. multiple artifacts, enchantments + long game (not very likely). To me that's the definition of a sideboard piece.

In most situations Id honestly rather have a Disenchant. The 2 Dazes in the deck were actually Disenchants but I knew no one would take that one sitting down.

BTW, flanking is underrated. Not by much, but enough.

swordoffireandice
11-15-2006, 05:32 PM
I don't like the tone of the last few posts. Let's not discourage people from posting results or trying deck lists that differ slightly from the Mav/Pinder version.

I'll say it again... I think running precisely 1 EC is a good thing, but not crucial to the deck.

Earlier, I hinted that I had a couple of other fairly radical suggestions for changes to the deck. They're not really suggestions at this point, so much as theories that I am working to prove/disprove. I'm going to share them now for (calm, rational) discussion:

Theory #1: This deck doesn't need Daze. We already have cheap/free counterspells in the form of Stifle and FoW with which to disrupt our opponent's game plan.

Theory #2: Talon Sliver is unnecessary. Plated Sliver serves largely the same purpose, while being cheaper. Also, maindeck Worship answers the same sort of things that Talon Sliver answers, only more effectively.

Let the fun begin. Only, please don't regurgitate the standard explanations that we have been giving for these cards to this point. I'm aware of the original reasoning for the inclusion of these cards. I would like to prove or disprove these theories through actual testing.


O.K. Volt, let the fun begin....did you do any testing before you post this idea? if you did, how did it go?
If you would cut the Daze and Talon, what is your decklist then?

Volt
11-15-2006, 06:49 PM
O.K. Volt, let the fun begin....did you do any testing before you post this idea? if you did, how did it go?
If you would cut the Daze and Talon, what is your decklist then?

First, here's the decklist:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

2 Worship

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
1 Eladamri's Call


I have playtested it quite a bit against Goblins, and have found that the removal of Daze and Talon Sliver had virtually no effect on the win percentage. Based solely on this, I feel fairly comfortable saying that Talon Sliver is not as important as we previously thought. I'm not yet comfortable drawing any conclusions about Daze, though. More play-testing needs to be done against a wide variety of decks.

Jankwolf
11-16-2006, 11:29 AM
I know this may seem like vague idea but...Why not use Worldy Tutor...Reason behind it is...it only costs one green to play...And the fact that it is put on top of your deck is null since you can cast it at the end of your opponents turn...and it makes more sence if you are only planning on running one copy...Oh and you can draw into a creature you placed on top of the deck...you get a creature and a draw spell with a cantrip for two...Just a thought.

Pinder
11-16-2006, 12:36 PM
You're not the first one to think of that. It's been suggested. Here's the post I made about it last time:



Worldly Tutor makes you lose your next draw, or spend an extra card (that should be spent digging into something else) to avoid losing that draw. Either way, you're losing a card. The problem with EC is that it costs 2, so you can't play it first turn, and it also loses you a turn when you play it, either if you tap out during your turn, or leave the mana open to play it at the end of theirs. Either way, it's mana not spent playing a Sliver. In the long run, I see EC as being the better of the two, as the drawback becomes less and less significant the further you move past two mana, but the drawback on Worldly Tutor stays the same.


The thing with Wordly Tutor is, the 'on top of your library' drawback isn't quite negated by playing it at the end of your opponents turn. You still lose a draw. And if you're playing a cantrip to not lose that draw by drawing into the sliver first, you've likely spent two (or more mana) and two cards to do the same thing that two mana and one card (in the case of EC) would do for you. EC at end of turn gets you the Sliver in hand, as well as your next draw.

You know what I just realized, though? Eladamri's Call is also a shuffle effect. It never occured to me before but that might be a golden quality I (and Mav) have been overlooking. It could accomplish largely the same thing as Brainstorm + Fetchland does. Imagine playing a brainstorm to nab, say, a Force of Will, putting two lands on top, then playing EC to shuffle away the badness and fetch whatever Sliver you need. And all that can be done at the end of your opponents turn. Spending two cards (BS and EC) to gain two cards (FoW and Sliver) maintains card parity, and the shuffling helps improve our card quality. I'm not saying it automatically fits in the deck now, but it's (again) something worth taking (another) look at.

Maverick676
11-16-2006, 08:37 PM
Wow so much to cover, here it goes:


Sidewinder is a Mtenda Herder(1/1 for 1 + flanking)
And Mtenda Herder is what kids? A TERRIBLE CARD!.

Didn't we already have a long a drawn out conversation about why flanking is useless in this deck?

If it gave all slivers bushido 1, this card would be freaking awesome.


@ mav: no one really cares (aside from u) about the call(s) in the deck its just for meta preferances(in my case) cause at the moment i have no goblins or combo or even thresh in my meta and i see no need for worship in my maindeck. and pinder was saying that if you dont like dont play it. its just a metagame thing. so stop wining about it and move the hell on. however i do agree with angels grace. i mean come on.So by metagame preference you mean that your metagame is so scruby you can run whatever you want? Even if it is suboptimal. Okay in that case why not up the list to 87 cards, make it 5 color and then run sliver queen, door to nothingness, and coalition victory.

@ Worldy Tutor, Well its card disadvantage so umm... NO!:mad:

@ No talon sliver: Seriously WTF!!! are you high? first strike dominates any creature deck out there. With it and worship your should rarely lose a match to gobs.

@ No daze: If force and stifle are 4 ofs and we add in at least 2 counterspells (of some kind not neccessarily counterspell itself) I could see this being possible. But I still think that daze is worth running, Free counterspells are the 5T0N3 C0LD NUTZ.

I don't mean to be so critical of everyone, but I keep hearing the same dissmissed suggestions that we have gone over time and time again. If you haven't read the N&D thread, you shouldn't be posting on this thread. We already covered many of these topics there.

Pinder
11-16-2006, 09:05 PM
So by metagame preference you mean that your metagame is so scruby you can run whatever you want?


The only thing 'scruby' I see here is your spelling. Chill.



Okay in that case why not up the list to 87 cards, make it 5 color and then run sliver queen, door to nothingness, and coalition victory.


Head, meet desk. You guys are gonna be good friends.



And Mtenda Herder is what kids? A TERRIBLE CARD.


You do, however, have a point there. Let me try and translate it into non-flame. Since this deck mainly sits on the defensive until it up and wins, First Strike is typically much more useful than Flanking (a purely aggressive ability).

Of course, Flanking stacks, which means that if we ran Sidewinder Sliver we could afford to be more agressive because we would be much more secure on the attack. Just saying. Of course, this would leave us far more vulnerable to a responding alpha strike. Mostly the best thing Sidewinder Sliver has going for it is that, like Plated Sliver, it costs 1 mana. This would help smooth out our curve a bit, as well as providing cheap monstrosities (3/3 untargetable double flanking flyer for W sounds pretty good, no?) in the late game. It just has a far less relevant ability.

Of course, we probably shouldn't include or dismiss them until we know more about how they might preform when paired with the other cards in the deck. If only we had some method whereby we determine this...some sort of test.....where you play with them......:rolleyes:

xsockmonkeyx
11-17-2006, 01:21 AM
Dont be such a negative nancy, Mav, Sidewider is better than you think (and so is the Herder for that matter). Ignore the Flanking bonus and focus on the fact that its a one drop sliver that isnt metallic.

BTW, Flanking is underrated just enough for your opponant to underestimate it.

Maverick676
11-17-2006, 03:10 AM
(3/3 untargetable double flanking flyer for W sounds pretty good, no?) in the late game. It just has a far less relevant ability.


3/3 untargetable first striking flyers sound better.

Flanking is totally useless in this deck, by the time you should be attacking your slivers are usually bigger than any other creature on the board. So what does flanking add to this deck? Nothing.

Look people first strike is a much more powerful ability than flanking. If flanking worked like bushido it would be a different story, however flanking is a purely offensive ability. Meathooks does not have the ability to put the opponent under enough pressure to force them to hold back creatures to block, against goblins this kind of strategy will cause you a match loss. Many times your opponent simply cannot block becuase of flying so flanking becomes useless anyway. First strike on the other hand is always relevant, since you will almost always be blocking at some point in the game.

Pinder
11-17-2006, 02:32 PM
3/3 untargetable first striking flyers sound better.


I was focusing on the fact that it costed only W, not on the fact that it had flanking. I'll admit that flanking is largely irrelevant. But it's more relevant than any of the abilities on any of the other 1-drops (excluding Plated) that we have. Let's go over what's available to us at 1 mana:

+0/+1 (Good, that's why they're in the deck).
Flanking (Essentially useless, but hey, it's a 1 drop)
Milling your opponent (Useless. There are better one drops (like Sidewinder)).
Absolutely nothing, and dies to shatterstorm. (Um, no. Metallic just doesn't cut it).

So, the only better 1 drop for this deck is Plated Sliver. Too bad we can't run more than 4, huh? Until they print the Sliver that costs G and gives everything +2/+2, we don't have any better options for a one drop.

Listen Mav. You're right. I don't think we should take out Talon Sliver just to put in Sidewinder Sliver. But if it turns out that the deck can operate without Talons (I'm doubtful, but it's worth a shot), another one drop might not neccesarily be a bad thing (even with only a semi-relevant ability).

But most of all, try and be at least a little diplomatic about it. I'm getting tired of dousing your flames. :rolleyes:

Maverick676
11-17-2006, 03:30 PM
But most of all, try and be at least a little diplomatic about it. I'm getting tired of dousing your flames. :rolleyes:

Diplomacy is for people without talon slivers.


If you guys want a one drop sliver shrieking is a better choice. Its ability gives the deck some reach, i.e. we can win through a creature stalemate or worship ect. Not to mention it pitches to FOW.

Pinder
11-17-2006, 07:02 PM
Hmm...solid points all around. I'm still up for Talon Sliver being in, though, just so everyone knows.

Jankwolf
11-18-2006, 05:15 PM
Anyone thought of running quilled sliver??
Its like ping-o-matic...it gets rid of stupid one 1/1....Its helps your match up agaisnt goblins get even better...As well as other andom stuff...Hell it gives SLivers have sorta a mog fanatic ability....Stupid threshold bears go away...medling mage goes away...And did i mention goblins? If you have 6 slivers out you can pretty much kill every creature in the format...that is if the time called for it...

Pinder
11-18-2006, 06:10 PM
Anyone thought of running quilled sliver??
Its like ping-o-matic...it gets rid of stupid one 1/1


You know what else gets rid of attacking 1/1s? Blocking with a 2/2 first striker.



Stupid threshold bears go away...medling mage goes away...


If they're stupid enough to swing into 4 or more Slivers, the bear was going to die anyway (especially if they have first strike). The same holds true for the Mages, only your opponent is more stupid for having swung into you in that case.


If you have 6 slivers out you can pretty much kill every creature in the format...

If we have 6 Slivers out, we're winning. No need for fancy tap effects there.

Essentially, the only time Quilled Sliver would be useful is on the attack, to kill blocking creatures before damage goes on the stack. In every defensive situation, however, why would you tap your creatures to kill an attacking creature, when you could simply block with about half as many (your dudes are almost always 2 power, vs 1 damage from Quilled and friends), and kill the creature while leaving your men untapped?

So, if Quilled Sliver is most useful on the attack, it's about as useful as Sidewinder Sliver is to this deck. Only it costs 1 more mana and doesn't stack. I'd rather have flanking than 'rangestrike', personally.

Jankwolf
11-18-2006, 07:20 PM
Then explain how mav last night said that he would like to try and run them..and if you are useing mutiple dude to block a bear(assumeing they have first strike...) you kill the bear...that still leave other creatures that you ping with YOUR untapped slivers...SO the ability is versitile...You block with untapped dude you still have untapped dude to kill even more creatures...

Pinder
11-18-2006, 09:10 PM
I simply expressing the fact that, wherever you could tap one of your Slivers to deal damage to an attacking creature, it's usually more prudent (and effective) just to block with it, as you will deal at least equal, and usually more, damage to it that way. And if it's first striking damage, so much the better.

You do, however, bring up a good point int that if they swing with more creatures than you can block with, you can essentially use a creature twice by blocking one creature and pinging another. My question then becomes, 'how often, really, is that more useful than something we already have in the deck?' If the answer turns out to be 'pretty often' then we might have something worth considering there.

Jankwolf
11-19-2006, 12:08 AM
I simply expressing the fact that, wherever you could tap one of your Slivers to deal damage to an attacking creature, it's usually more prudent (and effective) just to block with it, as you will deal at least equal, and usually more, damage to it that way. And if it's first striking damage, so much the better.

You do, however, bring up a good point int that if they swing with more creatures than you can block with, you can essentially use a creature twice by blocking one creature and pinging another. My question then becomes, 'how often, really, is that more useful than something we already have in the deck?' If the answer turns out to be 'pretty often' then we might have something worth considering there.

Well to support my point...Off chance goblins gets off a quick start, thresh if the counter/name crystaline...And then you have the random balck/red and deadguy ale stuff that makes appearances...Then there is always random jank aggro decks that may pop up and cause you problems...I'm simply thinking always expect the worst...who cares if it is over kill, its better to have the ability and not need it, then need it and not have the ability.

Iranon
11-19-2006, 07:29 PM
@ Jankwolf: That approach can quickly lead to ponderings like 'Can this deck get out of a chantlock with a Meddling Mage on my first solution?', which is unlikely to inspire changes that do anything than dilute the deck for no compelling reason.
While I strongly believe that it's better to have the right decklist rather than the pretty one (for example, I love the singleton Eladamri's Call), I would rather run strong flexible cards rather than a large variety of possibly useful cards when I have no ability to reliably pull the appropriate answer out of my arse (Sliver Survival? Might be feasible, but that is something completely different).



@ Pinder/Volt:

One thing that really puzzles me: Why run a sliver with a great yet non-cumulative ability 4 times, then ponder cutting it entirely? Yes, the deck remains playable without Talon but that's hardly a reason to toss it entirely. I would not wish to rely on Worship with a deck that is on the slow side of Aggro/Control and runs no mana acceleration.
Since much the same applies for Winged Sliver, I would run a 2/2 split unless my metagame gives me a strong reason to do otherwise.

For the Daze, I would want to run 1 or 2 because 5-6 is a great number for free counters (You want to see one early, but more than 2 are usually not good). It might look random but isn't because it's the chance of having 'Either Force of Will or Daze' you care about, not the chance of having Daze specifically. If you rely on Daze and your opponent suspects so, it can become useless. If he tries to play around it and you never draw it - all the better for you. Apart from the last incentive, this is the same reasoning that prompts some players to run 4 Isamaru, 1-2 Savannah Lions for early offensive creatures; it might look ugly but it works.


That the same could be applied for Sidewinder Sliver should be obvious. I think this is a matter of playstyle: If you care about having a 1-drop reliably, run some (2-3; they are not that bad in the long game thanks to their friends).
Personally, I wouldn't. Having to commit a lot to the table to do anything meaningful is already a major weakness compared to similar decks. I want every threat to count rather than a higher threat count.




Here is my current list. I know the numbers look random, but they are everything but.


4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Islands
1 Plains

4 plated sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 crystalline sliver
2 winged sliver
2 talon sliver
2 harmonic sliver

4 serum visions
4 brainstorm
1 eladamris call

4 swords to plowshares
2 worship

3 stifle
4 force of will
1 daze
1 counterspell

Jankwolf
11-19-2006, 08:56 PM
[QUOTE=Iranon;98919]@ Jankwolf: That approach can quickly lead to ponderings like 'Can this deck get out of a chantlock with a Meddling Mage on my first solution?', which is unlikely to inspire changes that do anything than dilute the deck for no compelling reason.
While I strongly believe that it's better to have the right decklist rather than the pretty one (for example, I love the singleton Eladamri's Call), I would rather run strong flexible cards rather than a large variety of possibly useful cards when I have no ability to reliably pull the appropriate answer out of my arse (Sliver Survival? Might be feasible, but that is something completely different).



YAY! We finally have another smart person who posts!!!
Yes i understand your point and realized that soon after i posted it.
I agree with your arguement twords daze/wing/talon sliver...And im slowly coming around to E.call...I really dont like the idea of just running one...maybe two would be feasable...I like the idea of 3 dazes a bit better...
But not 4...like you sadi late game drawing into daze is very pointless...

Maverick676
11-20-2006, 03:55 PM
Here is my current list. I know the numbers look random, but they are everything but.


4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Islands
1 Plains

4 plated sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 crystalline sliver
2 winged sliver
2 talon sliver
2 harmonic sliver

4 serum visions
4 brainstorm
1 eladamris call

4 swords to plowshares
2 worship

3 stifle
4 force of will
1 daze
1 counterspellThis list looks a little strange. For instance 1 counterspell and 1 daze? Why run them at all? I get what your saying about you only want 5-6 free counters but personally I don't feel that it is enough. Having only one counterspell though seems just plain dumb, you will almost never see it when you need it. If counterspell is run 2 is the absolute minimun number. Your mana base also seems questionable, why 1 polluted and only 1 windswept heath? Not even a basic forest? Talon should be at three since drawing 2 is better than drawing none. I also don't like the 1 eladamri's call (but everyone knows that). You state that your numbers seem random but aren't, yet offer no explanation justifying them?

Pinder
11-20-2006, 04:09 PM
@ Pinder/Volt:

One thing that really puzzles me: Why run a sliver with a great yet non-cumulative ability 4 times, then ponder cutting it entirely? Yes, the deck remains playable without Talon but that's hardly a reason to toss it entirely. I would not wish to rely on Worship with a deck that is on the slow side of Aggro/Control and runs no mana acceleration.
Since much the same applies for Winged Sliver, I would run a 2/2 split unless my metagame gives me a strong reason to do otherwise.


I actually prefer the 3/2 split for Talon/Winged (In comparison to your list, I only run 3 Plated Sliver, not 4). And Talon isn't going anywhere. It was an idea that was briefly entertained, but never really proved itself.



Here is my current list. I know the numbers look random, but they are everything but.


4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Islands
1 Plains

4 plated sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 crystalline sliver
2 winged sliver
2 talon sliver
2 harmonic sliver

4 serum visions
4 brainstorm
1 eladamris call

4 swords to plowshares
2 worship

3 stifle
4 force of will
1 daze
1 counterspell

I can live with the singleton Call, but the 1 Daze/Counterspell thing has me confused as much as Mav. Why not just run 2 of either? And you really only need 1 Harmonic MD if you run them, expecially if you have call. I'd trade 1 Harmonic for a Call and 1 Plated for a Talon in the list above.

Iranon
11-21-2006, 10:39 AM
The mana: I didn't like a basic forest in the deck much for only green cards. This in turn meant I only wanted one Windswept Heath despite that getting me the dual of my choice. What exactly would you change about my mana base?



The counters: Semi-reliably seeing a free counter is nice, the same holds for hard counters. I provided some reasoning for why 5-6 is a good number (usually I'd say 6 but we run enough cantrips) for things you want early but that won't carry the game on their own.

It comes down to the same '5 of a category': 5 free counters and 5 hard counters since Force of Will doubles at both. Obviously you could just run 2 of either and none of the other, but that reduces the chance of you brainstorming into the answer you need in a pinch.
If two cards (especially reactive ones) fill a similar role, none is clearly better, neither would make you tweak the deck around and if you run a non-neglegible amount of library manipulation, splitting them seems better. That is a lot of ifs so it doesn't happen all that often, but all of them apply here.

While I think what I said is valid, that is the point of view of a fussy deck designer who wants to optimise the deck in its pristine state; in a vacuum or a completely open meta. There are many points that would influence the respective attractiveness of Daze or Counterspell, but it boils down to something very simple: Do you need to answer bombs, or do you merely need to slow your opponent down? If you only need one of those bases coverd by more than the 4 Force of Wills, run two of the appropriate counters and toss the other, no complaints from me.



The rest: Drawing a second Eladamri's call is terrible... unless you desperately need a Harmonic Sliver to save your bacon from something hideous, such as Worship on the wrong side of the table. That is my reason for 1 Call, 2 Harmonic.
If I thought I could get away with less than 3 ways to get enchantment/artifact removal, I'd gladly cut one for a 4th Stifle or, yes, a 3rd Talon Sliver if Weenie Aggro is all I see. I don't think that question will arise though.

The ability to occasionally mount a good early offense and ride that to victory is great, but I wouldn't want to compromise the original plan for that, hence 4 Plated but no other 1-drops. The effect is usually weaker than that of Talon Sliver but not always (Pyroclasm, Flamebreak, some Fatties...), it comes at half the price, and it is cumulative, which is why I run only 2 Talon.

I think many disagreements stem from a different approach to the stochastics of the game. Rather than 'how often do I need to run card x to draw it when I want it', I believe the more sound approach to be 'Which number do I have to run to draw what I want'. The latter takes into account whether you already have cards that fulfil a similar role, better reflects the effects of tutors and library manipulation etc. It will make for more janky-looking decklists, but the statistical foundation for the numbers run is stronger.
And yes, I am fully aware that I am a dork.

Volt
11-21-2006, 01:02 PM
The mana: I didn't like a basic forest in the deck much for only green cards. This in turn meant I only wanted one Windswept Heath despite that getting me the dual of my choice. What exactly would you change about my mana base?



The counters: Semi-reliably seeing a free counter is nice, the same holds for hard counters. I provided some reasoning for why 5-6 is a good number (usually I'd say 6 but we run enough cantrips) for things you want early but that won't carry the game on their own.

It comes down to the same '5 of a category': 5 free counters and 5 hard counters since Force of Will doubles at both. Obviously you could just run 2 of either and none of the other, but that reduces the chance of you brainstorming into the answer you need in a pinch.
If two cards (especially reactive ones) fill a similar role, none is clearly better, neither would make you tweak the deck around and if you run a non-neglegible amount of library manipulation, splitting them seems better. That is a lot of ifs so it doesn't happen all that often, but all of them apply here.

While I think what I said is valid, that is the point of view of a fussy deck designer who wants to optimise the deck in its pristine state; in a vacuum or a completely open meta. There are many points that would influence the respective attractiveness of Daze or Counterspell, but it boils down to something very simple: Do you need to answer bombs, or do you merely need to slow your opponent down? If you only need one of those bases coverd by more than the 4 Force of Wills, run two of the appropriate counters and toss the other, no complaints from me.



The rest: Drawing a second Eladamri's call is terrible... unless you desperately need a Harmonic Sliver to save your bacon from something hideous, such as Worship on the wrong side of the table. That is my reason for 1 Call, 2 Harmonic.
If I thought I could get away with less than 3 ways to get enchantment/artifact removal, I'd gladly cut one for a 4th Stifle or, yes, a 3rd Talon Sliver if Weenie Aggro is all I see. I don't think that question will arise though.

The ability to occasionally mount a good early offense and ride that to victory is great, but I wouldn't want to compromise the original plan for that, hence 4 Plated but no other 1-drops. The effect is usually weaker than that of Talon Sliver but not always (Pyroclasm, Flamebreak, some Fatties...), it comes at half the price, and it is cumulative, which is why I run only 2 Talon.

I think many disagreements stem from a different approach to the stochastics of the game. Rather than 'how often do I need to run card x to draw it when I want it', I believe the more sound approach to be 'Which number do I have to run to draw what I want'. The latter takes into account whether you already have cards that fulfil a similar role, better reflects the effects of tutors and library manipulation etc. It will make for more janky-looking decklists, but the statistical foundation for the numbers run is stronger.
And yes, I am fully aware that I am a dork.

Welcome to dorkville. Population: 1972 (as of this writing).

I agree with much of what you say. The best deck list isn't necessarily the prettiest one. While "one-ofs" are generally to be avoided in deck-building, some flexibility and imagination is required. Sometimes "one-ofs" aren't really "one-ofs."

That said, I don't know if I buy into a singleton Daze as a fifth "free counterspell." It's too unreliable. I would ditch the Dazes entirely. In fact, I have ditched Dazes entirely. I greatly prefer playing Stifle #4 over Daze #1.

I haven't gathered enough evidence (done enough play-testing) to either prove or disprove my Talon Sliver theory. I do know that when I used to play 3 Talon + 2 Winged, I too often found myself dying for lack of a Winged. While First Strike allows you to stall out the ground war for a while, a devoted aggro deck will eventually overwhelm you if you don't draw into a Winged. Maybe the solution is to play 3 Winged + 2 Talon, instead. That is, if the Talon Slivers are really necessary at all. I'm still trying to determine how much of an effect they have on the aggro matchups.

I agree that all 4 Plated Slivers should be played. It only costs 1 and its ability stacks. That ability shouldn't be underrated, btw. It really makes life difficult for opposing weenies when all your slivers are 2/4 and 3/5. At worst, it's a poor man's Talon Sliver. Sometimes, it's actually better than Talon Sliver.

I have been playing with 2 Harmonic Slivers for a while. Overall, I like them. They're either really good, or sort of subpar. In the matchups where they're sort of subpar, you side them out. No big deal.

Maverick676
11-21-2006, 02:04 PM
I have been playing with 2 Harmonic Slivers for a while. Overall, I like them. They're either really good, or sort of subpar. In the matchups where they're sort of subpar, you side them out. No big deal.

If it's great in some matchups and subpar in others wouldn't it be better in the sideboard? or at least just run one maindeck (with call).

Volt
11-21-2006, 02:48 PM
If it's great in some matchups and subpar in others wouldn't it be better in the sideboard? or at least just run one maindeck (with call).

I think this is one of those cases where you want to run at least two (plus an EC) or not run it at all. In the matchups where you really want Harmonic Sliver, you generally want it pretty early in the game. You don't want to have to spend turns digging for it when there's a SotF, SoFI, Jitte, Aether Vial, Crucible, Trinisphere, etc. on the table. I don't think you can count on drawing it in a timely fashion with only 1 Harmonic + 1 EC in the deck.

Kirika
11-23-2006, 12:34 AM
Has anyone tested 4 survival of the fitest and a squee goblin naboob? I play this in my sliver deck that I play for fun and tribal, it also allows you to get a certain sliver if you need it, like the new disenchant sliver if you need it or a winged if you need to swing in for the win. you can also even put in academy rector and survival for rector and blast rector with an acidic sliver to get your worship or does the survival tool box fill up too much space with 5 slots or is it a little on the slow side in this fast metagame? I haven't played my sliver deck in competitive legacy just play it for fun with friends mainly.

Iranon
11-23-2006, 04:37 AM
1st, we do not run that many creatures, getting stuck on a dead Survival is annoying. Remove either cantrips or parts of the permission/defense suite, and the deck stops doing what it is supposed to do.

2nd, Survival is on the slow side even if you run some mana acceleration, it is just not feasible without. Slivers only being useful in multiples makes the speed problem worse. The deck already has a very good late game, so the window for Survival being neither too slow nor overkill is very small.

3rd, if you get Survival active, there are more efficient ways of winning the game than building up an untargetable, flying, firstriking, poledancing army. Some are less flashy, but they get the job done for a lesser investment.



You answered your question yourself really, both issues are prohibitive. A serious attempt to merge Slivers with Survival would look nothing like this deck and function in a completely different manner. And if you consider just throwing it in... well, Eladamris call is almost strictly better then (lesser mana investment, replaces itself with a threat).

Pinder
11-23-2006, 04:43 PM
What Iranon said. Oh, and Wizards printed Pithing Needle. Survival is not that great for this deck anyway, and the moment we start running the 'naboob' just to make it better, we're heading down a slippery slope. Next thing you know we'll be running FtK and Tradewind Riders. And Eternal Witness and Rofellos. Okay, maybe not that, but you see where I'm going. I actually think that RGSA (Red/Green Sliver Advantage) might be viable, but it's really a completely different deck.

I think that tomorrow I'm going to try running -4 Daze, +2 Portent, +2 Eladamri's Call (I'm not admitting anything, I'm just testing it). Or maybe I'll still run Daze over Call. People tend to walk into Daze in my meta :laugh:.

I still don't think that Harmonic should be in the main, though. It just seems that as long as you have one out, it will be impossible to keep Worship down. This might not come up as often as I think it will, but I still don't want any situation where I can't play a Sliver because I'm worried about killing the thing that makes me invincible.

Volt
11-23-2006, 06:25 PM
I still don't think that Harmonic should be in the main, though. It just seems that as long as you have one out, it will be impossible to keep Worship down. This might not come up as often as I think it will, but I still don't want any situation where I can't play a Sliver because I'm worried about killing the thing that makes me invincible.

I can tell you from experience that Harmonic + Worship is almost never a problem. Worst case scenario is you swing with the Harmonic until your opponent blocks/kills it, and then you can play whatever slivers you want without fear of destroying your own Worship. Also, if worst comes to worst, you can play a sliver with Harmonic out and Stifle the CIP effect.

Kirika
11-24-2006, 12:03 AM
Your are right that Survival is a bit slow but Survival lets me run queen and essense, and harmonic as a one of to fetch for but I primarily play it in multiplayer tribal or tribal fun games.

I remember the old list I used to run in back in like 1999 had red for acidic and black for hibernation. I was thinking sedge is pretty darn good with another +1/+1 and regeneration if we want to go multicolor or is the mana base just too bad with 4 wasteland 4 port goblins?

I actually played some games in magic workstation against random people on the magic workstation server with Pindar's list and I like it alot, does pretty well against goblins and thresh and played against this weird red green beats too.

What would you recomend doing to up the creature count to 20 so I could play it in the tribal games we have locally?

I was thinking

//Land
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Forest

//Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Essense Sliver


//Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
2 Worship

//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Engineered Explosives

might try that out.

Pinder
11-24-2006, 12:23 AM
Your are right that Survival is a bit slow but Survival lets me run queen and essense


And thus ends your argument about Survival.



I remember the old list I used to run in back in like 1999 had red for acidic and black for hibernation. I was thinking sedge is pretty darn good with another +1/+1 and regeneration if we want to go multicolor or is the mana base just too bad with 4 wasteland 4 port goblins?


Right you are. 4 colors just doesn't work out while Wasteland is still 1) Legal, and 2) Run in the best deck in the format. Also, only 1 of those Slivers(Hibernation) is even considerable for this deck.



I actually played some games in magic workstation against random people on the magic workstation server with Pindar's list and I like it alot, does pretty well against goblins and thresh and played against this weird red green beats too.


Um...it's Pinder. But my Wizard's account is Pindarius, so I can't really fault you there. And thanks.



What would you recomend doing to up the creature count to 20 so I could play it in the tribal games we have locally?

I was thinking

//Land
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Forest

//Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Essense Sliver


//Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
2 Worship

//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Engineered Explosives

might try that out.

I think that would work just fine for local tribal games. But this thread is for tuning it to beat a developed Legacy metagame, which I don't think it would hold up in.

xsockmonkeyx
11-24-2006, 03:10 AM
If youre upping the count to play tribal then I recommend Sidewinders, and/or more Talons and Winged. Essense Sliver is pretty much win-more or sideboard material. Oh, and if your going to play tribal then slivers isnt a bad way to go. It gives goblins a run for its money and beats random.dec more often than not.

Maverick676
11-24-2006, 03:30 AM
//Land
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Forest

//Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Essense Sliver



//Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
2 Worship

//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Engineered Explosives

Having worship and essence sliver is kind of redundant, although I have been considering essence over worship should krosan grip become popular.

3 swords to plowshares?!?!?! are you INSANE IN DA MEMBRANE?

Kirika
11-27-2006, 01:04 AM
I think i will drop the stifle count to two and then up swords to plowshares to 4. My original sliver deck I play for fun tribal only had 3 swords also and it worked ok but then I had survival and acidic sliver with queen to help with removal.

Maverick676
11-27-2006, 05:57 AM
Or how bout you drop a useless redundency to worship (essensce sliver) and add in 1 swords and a usefull counter (stifle).

Kirika
11-30-2006, 02:07 PM
essense slivers aren't so great. Most of the time I wish I had flying or first strike instead so I dropped them to go 3 winged and 3 talon. I'm thinking i might end up going 4 winged and 2 talon. flying is just that good. dunno about the flanking sliver. I want harmonics main to be able to deal with artifacts and enchantments. Jitte's sort of suck and so do opposing worships.

Volt
11-30-2006, 02:42 PM
essense slivers aren't so great. Most of the time I wish I had flying or first strike instead so I dropped them to go 3 winged and 3 talon. I'm thinking i might end up going 4 winged and 2 talon. flying is just that good. dunno about the flanking sliver. I want harmonics main to be able to deal with artifacts and enchantments. Jitte's sort of suck and so do opposing worships.

Essence Sliver is mediocre. I find that it rarely turns a losing situation into a winning one.

Harmonic Sliver is useful in most metagames. I like to run 2 maindeck.

I think the deck needs 3 Winged Slivers, because flying over the hordes is how you win a lot of aggro matches.

Talon Sliver is nice. First Strike definitely comes in handy in some situations. My problem with running Talon Sliver is that between Winged, Harmonic, and Talon, you're now running ~8 slivers that are overcosted 1/1 creatures, which leads to more bad draws. I think the deck works best when it only has 5-6 Winged/Talon/Harmonic Slivers. The trick is figuring out which combination of slivers to run without oversaturating the deck with overcosted creatures that aren't very good on their own. Personally, I decided to forego the Talons because Worship fits very nicely into that slot. Sure, Worship gets sided out in some matchups, but those are the same matchups where First Strike doesn't matter, either.

NANTUKO_SHADY
11-30-2006, 07:51 PM
I've got a question concerning this deck. I'm far too lazy to look back on the 24758325423 pages of this thread, so I figured I would raise the subject of matchups. Does anyone actually have any legitimate testing done with this deck against the tier 1 and 2 decks??? (Workstation doesn't count)



Word.

Volt
11-30-2006, 08:09 PM
I've got a question concerning this deck. I'm far too lazy to look back on the 24758325423 pages of this thread, so I figured I would raise the subject of matchups. Does anyone actually have any legitimate testing done with this deck against the tier 1 and 2 decks??? (Workstation doesn't count)


Yes. The Tier 1 matchups are discussed in the opening post. [EDIT: I take that back. It looks like Pinder removed that section of the primer.]

Goblins: 65/35 (my testing has been almost exclusively against mono-red)

Thresh: 50/50 (slightly better actually, but a lot of matches end 1-1 draw due to time)

Solidarity & Iggy Pop : 65/35 (50/50 first game, 70/30 or better after sideboarding)

I believe CounterSliver also has somewhat positive matchups against Angel Stompy and Faerie Stompy, but my play-testing data here is somewhat scarce.

Deadguy Ale and Affinity seem to be about 50/50 matchups, but again, I don't have a lot of play-testing data.

I have done no play-testing against Salvager Game.

Bad matchups include: The Rock, Truffle Shuffle, Wombat, Rifter. Basically any deck that runs Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed is potentially a problem.

Patoon
12-12-2006, 07:04 PM
Has anyone considered using Living Wish in the deck (sorry if this has already been discussed)

But the way i see it slivers are the ultimate utility creature, there is seemingly one for every situation. I was thinking with the use of Aether Vial in this deck, one could Living Wish for whatever was needed, and the creature could be vialed into play, irrespective of casting cost (colors). This would also allow the have some kind of Fat stored in the sideboard which could be called upon if the time arose, yet also allows for other creatures in the board such as True Believer and the alike for combo match ups.

Anyway just thought i would add my thoughts.

Pinder
12-12-2006, 08:05 PM
Well, we did try Living Wish once, and found out that it was really slow. We also tried Aether Vial, and found out that it wasn't that great with so few creatures. The whole 'wish for a creature and vial it in' thing was really neato and all, but just too slow and clunky for a deck based purely around tempo. So in short, yeah, that's a good idea,but for a different build of Slivers.

Patoon
12-12-2006, 10:24 PM
fair enough, i have to admit, it would make for quite i different list.

Kirika
12-15-2006, 11:18 PM
Any ideas on options for the mirror match? All i could think of was maybe Glorious Anthem to make your creatures bigger then theirs but it is double white.

Volt
12-16-2006, 01:10 AM
Any ideas on options for the mirror match? All i could think of was maybe Glorious Anthem to make your creatures bigger then theirs but it is double white.

Hmm. That's not something I've had to worry about. Off the top of my head, here are a few ideas:

Spell Snare - counters 2cc spells. Also good against B/W Confidant.
Ward Sliver - cast it, name white (or whatever), then swing for the win.
Turnabout - tap all his critters, then swing for the win.


EDIT: Here's an added bonus (if you want to call it that) for anyone still reading this thread. I dug up an old counter-sliver tournament report I wrote for The Dojo back in 1999. This blast from the past is courtesy of the Wayback Machine.



Subject: [TOURNAMENT] Counter Sliver


When: Saturday, 4/10/99
Where: The Bat Cave, Vancouver WA
Format: T2, swiss

We had 25 people show up this Saturday, including several pro-tour hopefuls
back from the Seattle/Eugene PTQ's. It has been very interesting to see the
new variety of decks since the April 1 bannings. I think it's a much more
enjoyable, competitive environment now.

Here's the deck I played with:

4 City of Brass
2 Thran Quarry
2 Reflecting Pool
4 Brushland
8 Island
3 Mox Diamond
2 Winter Orb
4 Winged Sliver
4 Counterspell
2 Forbid
2 Mana Leak
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Disenchant
2 Worship
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Bird of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
1 Sylvan Library
2 Earthquake
2 Incinerate

Sideboard:
2 Duress
2 Terror
2 Mana Leak
4 Pyroblast
2 Shock
2 Disenchant
1 Sliver Queen


Round 1: Justin, playing mono blue with Stalking Stones, Faerie Conclaves,
Energy Field, and disks

First Game: Justin is a good player, but I beat his counter-phoenix deck
last week to make the top 4. He sees me and makes some comment about
wishing he could have played a scrub in the first round. I say hey, I am a
scrub! Anyway, I get out a couple of early slivers, zap one of his
walking
lands after he activates it, counter a disk, and disenchant an Energy Field.
Sliver beatdown brings it home.

Second Game: In go 4 Pyroblast, 2 Duress. Out go 4 Walls, 2 Earthquake. I
don't remember much about this game, except that he countered some of my
crucial stuff and killed me with faeries and stomping stones.

Third Game: This time, I see some of my sideboard cards. I get out a
couple of early slivers and a Winter Orb, and start applying beatings. At
one point, he manages to get out an Energy Field. I say ok, he says go.
Next turn, I duress him. Bye bye energy field!

Matches 1-0, Games 2-1


Round 2: My buddy, Rob, playing mono-green stompy

I helped Rob put his deck together last weekend, so I know what's in it. I
also know that if I get bad draws, he could easily beat me. Luckily for me,
he got the bad draws.

First Game: He mulligans down to 5 and keeps a 1-land hand. He never gets
off the ground in this game.

Second Game: In go 2 Terror, 1 Sliver Queen. Out go 1 Winged Sliver, 2
Winter Orb (useless against elves & Gaea's Cradle). In my opening hand,
I
draw Winged Sliver, Forbid, Sliver Queen, Mox Diamond, and 3 land. I keep
it. My first 3 turns, I do nothing except put down 3 lands, a mox, a bird,
and a crystalline sliver. Meanwhile, Rob builds a small army. Fourth turn,
I tap out to play a Sliver Queen. He, of course, can do nothing about it.
Game over, although it took me a while to work around his Killer Bees and
Titania's Chosen, which got up to 8/8 before I finally chump blocked it with
a bunch of baby slivers.

Matches 2-0, Games 4-1


Round 3: Gary, playing Counter-Sliver!

This is the only other guy in the Portland-Vancouver area who regularly
plays counter-sliver, that I know of. He only comes to this tournament
occasionally, though, so I've never had to play against him, until now. I'm
a bit worried about the mirror matchup, because I think his deck has more
slivers in it.

First Game: Before the game, Gary makes some comment about never getting
mana-screwed with his deck. Can you guess what happened after that? For
some weird reason, Gary keeps a 1-land hand. I guess the other 6 cards in
his hand must have looked pretty damn good to him. Anyway, he never drew
another land the entire game, and never even attempts to cast a spell.
Needless to say, my slivers apply the beats.

Second Game: In go 4 Pyroblasts, 2 Duress, 1 Disenchant, 1 Sliver Queen.
Out go 4 Walls, 2 Earthquake, 2 Winter Orb. This game is a little more
interesting. I get out a couple of early slivers, and he gets out one.
He's slightly mana-hosed however, and on his 5th turn he taps 2 of his 3
mana to bring out another sliver. I say ok, he says go. On my turn, I
bring out the Mama Bitch. This is the beginning of the end for him. On my
next turn, I topdeck a Duress, cast it, and pull a Whirlwind (!) out
of his
hand. In so doing, I had to leave a Worship in his hand, which he
successfully casts on his next turn. A few turns later, I draw a
Disenchant, kill the Worship, and swarm him with diaper dandies.

Matches 3-0, Games 6-1


Round 4: some guy, playing a cool blue deck (sorry, don't remember your
name, dude)

I knew I was in the final 8 no matter what at this point, so I kinda wanted
to draw, so I could relax and maybe watch Rob play. Unfortunately, my
opponent was 2-1, and felt that he needed to play. So, we play.

First Game: First couple of turns, he just lays islands, while I get out a
sliver. I'm thinking he's playing another one of those blue permission
decks with walking lands, and/or morphling, or maybe counter-phoenix. So,
on my 3rd turn, despite having counters in my hand, I tap 2 of my 3 mana to
bring out a wall of draw. He holds for a while, and finally says ok. I
draw my card and say go. He draws, plays a 3rd island, taps them, and casts
Show and Tell. Oh Shit. The only eligible card in my hand is a Winter Orb,
which I select. He drops a... Verdant Force! A couple of turns later,
I
scoop.

Second Game: In go 4 Pyroblasts, 2 Terror. Out go 4 Walls, 2 Earthquakes.
I got out a couple of early slivers, but always kept enough mana open to
counter his stuff. I believe I also got out a winter orb in this game,
which really slowed him down.

Third Game: Pretty much the same as game #2, except now I find out he
also
has Quicksilver Amulets. No matter. By the time he finally gets one out,
it's too late. Slivers bring it home again.

Matches 4-0, Games 8-2


Finals, Round 1: John, playing mono-red (a slightly odd sligh variant)

First Game: I quickly get out the dreaded sliver trio and swarm over him.
No contest.

Second Game: Ouch, this hurt. I reluctantly keep an opening draw with some
lands and slivers, but no counters. He quickly gets out a havoc, wastes 1
of my lands, and then boils away my islands the turn before I was going to
drop a worship. I die a fiery death.

Third Game: Once again, I keep an opening hand with some slivers and no
counters. It was touch and go, but I get out a couple of muscle slivers and
manage to outrace him.


Finals, Round 2: Calvin, playing Spikes/Tradewinds

Calvin is one of the best players in Washington, and his deck is a tough
matchup for me. The other 2 guys in the final 4 wanted to draw out and
split the prize money. I said I would play or draw, whatever you guys wanna
do. Calvin apparently thought he could take me, and insisted on playing.
So we played.

First Game: I get out a couple of early slivers, including the Crystalline,
and a Sylvan Library. I think the Sylvan Library was the difference in this
game. He gets out a Tradewind at some point, but I counter and/or quake
away the next few creatures he plays. By the time he finally gets out 2
more creatures to go with the Tradewind, it's too late. I swarm over him
with the army of slivers I've accumulated.

Second Game: In go 4 Pyroblast, 2 Terror, 2 Mana Leak. Out go 4 Walls, 2
Worship, 2 Winter Orb. I made my first bonehead move of the tournament in
this game, and consequently blew a game I probably should have won. I got
out an early Muscle and Crystalline and started applying beats. Finally at
some point he gets out some sort of blocker - a wall, I think. Fine, so
it'll take me a little longer. I attack, he blocks the Crystalline, takes 2
from the Muscle, putting him at 7. At this point, I have 4 mana in play,
with 2 Mana Leaks and a Forbid in my hand. Calvin has 7 mana available. I
say go. Calvin draws, taps 5, and casts Extinction. Yikes! I Leak
it. He
has no response, and says go. I draw a Winged Sliver. For some stupid
reason, I decide to play it, tapping 2 of my 4 mana, leaving a Mana Leak and
a Forbid in my hand. I fly over his blocker for 5, bringing him down to 2,
and say go. He draws, lays a land, taps 5, and casts... another
Extinction!
The best I can do is Leak it, making him tap a City, bringing him down to 1.
My slivers go to the graveyard. Calvin comes all the way back to win that
game.

Third Game: Odd game. I get out a first turn Muscle, which ends up going
all the way, by itself! I draw a bunch of counter spells, and stop 2 or
3
attempts at capsizing my sliver. He does get out an annoying Oath of
Ghouls, which makes the game really touch and go. He keeps using it to
bring a Raven Familiar back from his graveyard, which I managed to keep
countering and/or killing. Meanwhile, the marathon muscle sliver
relentlessly pounded him into submission. He was pretty ticked after the
game. Should have taken the draw, dude!


Finals, Round 3: Dave, playing a nasty blue/white deck with Wraths, disks,
walking lands, etc.

Dave isn't feeling so hot, kinda wants to draw, but is willing to play. I
said what the hell, let's just draw and split the prize money. We won
~30
bucks store credit, each.


Just some final comments on CounterSliver. This deck was pretty good
before, and I think it's a very good now with the April 1 bannings. The
only decks it seems to have real trouble with are those with lots of mass
creature removal.

That's all folks. Thanks for reading. I had no idea how long it take to
write one of these things!

Volt
12-19-2006, 10:58 PM
I would like to discuss the idea of moving Meddling Mage to the maindeck.

The nice thing about maindecking the Meddling Mages is that it strengthens the game 1 against combo. Also, it opens up slots in the sideboard for something like Disrupt, which can be sided in against Deadguy Ale and Burn, as well as being an additional weapon to bring in against combo. The Mages aren't tremendous against Goblins and other Aggro, but they aren't bad either.

Maverick676
12-20-2006, 04:16 AM
Volt, have you considered absolute law in the sideboard (1W enchantment: all creatures get pro red). It makes your slivers even more awesome in the goblins matchup, and mages become stupid good in both the goblins and burn matchup.

Volt
12-20-2006, 12:14 PM
Volt, have you considered absolute law in the sideboard (1W enchantment: all creatures get pro red). It makes your slivers even more awesome in the goblins matchup, and mages become stupid good in both the goblins and burn matchup.

I've seen you mention Absolute Law before, and it seems like a reasonable suggestion. I haven't tried it, though. I take it that it's working out pretty well for you?

Btw, I'm 98% sure that I'm going to the Columbus Grand Prix. Guess which deck I'm going to be playing.

Maverick676
12-20-2006, 01:23 PM
Yes absolute law has always worked wonders in my decks. I play it in threshold, meathooks, and just about anything running creatures and white mana. If you're going to columbus with meathooks I would seriously recomend this for you sideboard. It really does a number on goblins.

BTW I think it's awesome that someone is finally taking this deck to a big tournament. Best of luck to ya.

Pinder
12-20-2006, 02:56 PM
Btw, I'm 98% sure that I'm going to the Columbus Grand Prix. Guess which deck I'm going to be playing.

Volt, did I mention that you're my hero? It's about time one of us took the list somewhere big. I hope it goes well for you.

As to adding Mages to the maindeck, it seems to me like it would be a great idea, but I have one reservation: because all of the Slivers are untargetable, then Magi seem like they would draw a ton on removal. Has this been an issue? I suppose that in the combo matchups, where the Magi really shine, there's not a ton of removal to worry about that you can't, well, Mage, and that in the matchups where Mages would die quickly (Goblins comes to mind), Mages don't matter. Is that how it works?

And yeah, Absolute Law is house against Goblins. If you've freed up space in the board, having them is great.



4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Meddling Mage
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver (2 is not enough!)
2 Harmonic Sliver (Talon Slivers could also go in these slots)

2 Worship
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle


No Dazes? Sweet. I was about ready to get rid of them too.You think 4 Force is enough counters? I still feel uneasy about a lack of Talon Sliver, but then maybe I've just grown attached. 3 Stifle looks like it would be fine to me, you don't really want to see them after early to mid-game (except against Goblins, where you want to see them every waking second), so cutting 1 shouldn't be a problem. Harmonics, well, meh. There's some negative syngery with those Worships, but I don't really think that'll come up very much. And speaking of Worships, how much do you rely on them, generally? I suppose Goblins doesn't pack any enchantment hate (well, Anarchy, but that fucks over a lot more than Worship), but how many times have you relied on Worship to keep you alive, only to have it Naturalized or something during an Alpha Strike? And let's not forget about Krosan Grip.

Volt
12-20-2006, 03:58 PM
Volt, did I mention that you're my hero? It's about time one of us took the list somewhere big. I hope it goes well for you.

As to adding Mages to the maindeck, it seems to me like it would be a great idea, but I have one reservation: because all of the Slivers are untargetable, then Magi seem like they would draw a ton on removal. Has this been an issue? I suppose that in the combo matchups, where the Magi really shine, there's not a ton of removal to worry about that you can't, well, Mage, and that in the matchups where Mages would die quickly (Goblins comes to mind), Mages don't matter. Is that how it works?

And yeah, Absolute Law is house against Goblins. If you've freed up space in the board, having them is great.



No Dazes? Sweet. I was about ready to get rid of them too.You think 4 Force is enough counters? I still feel uneasy about a lack of Talon Sliver, but then maybe I've just grown attached. 3 Stifle looks like it would be fine to me, you don't really want to see them after early to mid-game (except against Goblins, where you want to see them every waking second), so cutting 1 shouldn't be a problem. Harmonics, well, meh. There's some negative syngery with those Worships, but I don't really think that'll come up very much. And speaking of Worships, how much do you rely on them, generally? I suppose Goblins doesn't pack any enchantment hate (well, Anarchy, but that fucks over a lot more than Worship), but how many times have you relied on Worship to keep you alive, only to have it Naturalized or something during an Alpha Strike? And let's not forget about Krosan Grip.


I wouldn't say I rely on the Worships, but they do improve the Goblins matchup by about 10%. They also pull out random games against other aggro decks. That said, I'm considering moving them to the sideboard. I'm trying to develop a more versatile build that performs well against a more varied field.

Other thoughts...

I still feel like 8 cantrips isn't quite enough. I know we tried 12 a while back, and that was a bust, but I'm just not satisfied with the 4 Serum Visions + 4 Brainstorm engine. I've actually been running 4 Brainstorm + 3 Serum Visions + 2 Portent for a while, and that does seem to be an improvement. 10 cantrips might be even better, and that's where I'd draw the line.

I've become quite attached to the Harmonic Slivers, although I wouldn't want to run more than 2 maindeck. They can really pull your ass out of the fire, and nobody ever sees them coming.

Pinder
12-21-2006, 07:01 PM
I agree that the cantrip count could stand to go up (again). 10 should strike a nice balance between 'not enough' and 'too much'.


I think the Meddling Mages will more than make up for the lack of Counterspells. This deck prefers to have proactive solutions instead of reactive solutions. You don't want to sit around keeping 2 mana open just in case you might need to counter something.


I wholeheartedly agree on that one. I think that having Mages as a sort of 'counterspell that sticks to the table' is probably the best way to go. That way, we can just plop one down, and then keep going without worrying about holding mana. Originally we had Daze because of that, but Mages would probably do a lot better in that respect as well. Plus, they swing for 2! My only concern is still that being the only targetable thing on our side of the table will give them a very short lifespan.

I'm still not sold on Harmonics (especially over Talons), but we can agree to disagree on that one (I will admit that where they're good, they're good, though). And if you're not running Talons main, you should at least be boarding them against Gobs. As you can probably attest, they're just that good against the little green men.

One more thing I've been debating, is whether or not we need more removal. It just seems to me like a lot of the time I don't have/can't find a Swords when I really need one to take out an opposing Mage or some other problem creature. I suppose an increased cantrip base could help with that, though. Any other ideas?

Solpugid
12-21-2006, 07:29 PM
The lack of another good removal spell is the sole reason I ended up switching from UGW thresh to UGR.

Honestly, I'd love to help you guys out, but there really isn't much to go in that slot. However, here have been the best candidates for me:

Repeal, echoing truth, last breath, and condemn.

If any of those work for you guys, or if you come up with any better ideas, I'd love to hear about it. And by the way, I found repeal to be the best option so far.

Volt
12-21-2006, 07:36 PM
One more thing I've been debating, is whether or not we need more removal. It just seems to me like a lot of the time I don't have/can't find a Swords when I really need one to take out an opposing Mage or some other problem creature. I suppose an increased cantrip base could help with that, though. Any other ideas?

Condemn isn't bad. I've sided it in before. Nobody sees it coming. Of course, it only works on attacking creatures.

Last Breath is worth considering, too. It only takes out small critters, but it doesn't matter if they're attacking or not. That Terrageddon deck that has been doing so well in Europe runs Last Breath in the sideboard to deal with Meddling Mages and goblins.

Speaking of Meddling Mages, I haven't quite decided if I like them in the maindeck or not. My preliminary play-testing leads me to believe that 17 slivers + 4 Meddling Mages tends to lead to glutted hands. If we're going to run so many critters, we might have to take another look at Aether Vial. Frankly, I don't want to go there. Btw, you're right, Meddling Mage is not long for these mortal coils once it hits the board against any sort of aggro deck. I'm going to test them out for a while longer, but my enthusiasm for them is presently waning.

On the other hand, I'm loving the additional cantrips. I think running 9 or 10 cantrips is definitely an improvement. I've been going with Portent as my 3rd cantrip, and I'm finding that I like them almost as much as the Serum Visions.

Iranon
12-22-2006, 07:27 AM
I really dislike Meddling Mages in this; far too often they give an opponent the opportunity to use otherwise dead cards.

Please please please don't take out Talon Slivers either. If you think they aren't essential, only run 1.

Generally, this is a deck that has no business looking pretty. Judging from my testing, anything approaching an optimal list will include everything from 1-ofs to 4-ofs.

nightshade81
12-22-2006, 11:30 AM
If you want to keep the creature count down and add Meddling Mages you could go back to having multiple Eladamri's Call. Would allow the toolbox and the Mage in combo matches. But I have suggested that to death, it just brings it up in a new light.

For added removal in the UGW aggro-control beyond swords I have always found Engineered Explosives to be the best.

Solpugid
12-22-2006, 11:52 AM
The main problem I see with engineered explosives is that it isn't fast enough to stall goblins, unless you forgo doing anything else. Playing it for 1 counter first turn, then popping it second means no slivers, no swords, no cantrips, no stifles.

EE can certainly help the late game, no doubt, but when I've been looking for additional removal, I've wanted it to be super fast to stem the weenie rush.

Volt
12-22-2006, 12:15 PM
The main problem I see with engineered explosives is that it isn't fast enough to stall goblins, unless you forgo doing anything else. Playing it for 1 counter first turn, then popping it second means no slivers, no swords, no cantrips, no stifles.

EE can certainly help the late game, no doubt, but when I've been looking for additional removal, I've wanted it to be super fast to stem the weenie rush.

I was running EEs for a while. I found they were pretty good against decks that like to play lots of 1cc critters, like Sligh. They're also pretty good at getting rid of Chalices. Unfortunately, they were pretty spotty outside of those scenarios. Against Goblins, I would use them to blow up Aether Vials and maybe a stray Lackey or Fanatic, but I would spend 3 mana and potentially 2 turns to do so, and then frequently lose the game due to the lost tempo anyway. Granted, I had a few exceptional cases against Goblins where the EE saved my ass, but as a rule they were a tempo-sink. That's why I went to Harmonic Slivers. Say what you will about them being overcosted, but they require the exact same mana investment as an activated EE with 1 counter, and they leave a body behind. And now that other Aether Vial sitting in your opponent's hand, which he would have cast the turn after you activated the EE (were you running it), is essentially a dead card. Btw, in a pinch, a 2/2 or 2/3 Harmonic Sliver makes a great chump blocker against Piledriver.


About the Meddling Mages... Okay, it's only been a few days since I made the suggestion, but I'm already giving up on that experiment. Back to the sideboard they go.

Kirika
12-22-2006, 12:29 PM
Meddling Mages maindeck really defeat the purpose of making Crystalline Sliver since any removal will hit the Mages. however you really do want mages sideboard against combo.

I'm not really a fan of Condemn, Last Breath etc. Why not steal their guys with Vendalken Shackles.

4 Brainstorm 4 Serum Visions has been working well for me. I don't see the need for more Cantrips. This is not threshhold.

Volt
12-22-2006, 12:39 PM
Meddling Mages maindeck really defeat the purpose of making Crystalline Sliver since any removal will hit the Mages. however you really do want mages sideboard against combo.

I'm not really a fan of Condemn, Last Breath etc. Why not steal their guys with Vendalken Shackles.

4 Brainstorm 4 Serum Visions has been working well for me. I don't see the need for more Cantrips. This is not threshhold.

8 cantrips works okay, but 10 is better. No, this isn't treshhold. We aren't concerned about filling up our graveyard. However, we do need to dig to find our slivers and other spells. Also, I got tired of getting opening hands with 1 land and no cantrips. Try adding a couple cantrips. You will find it to be an improvement. I was wrong about the Meddling Mages, but I'm right about this.

Maverick676
12-22-2006, 04:07 PM
Shackles are some good to be sure. But I think they might be more of a tempo sink than anything else. I have used them with great success in my build of star spangled slaughter, but that deck runs more lands and had a slower clock. When I played counter slivers I usually only get 3-4 lands to stick on average.

Iranon
12-22-2006, 05:08 PM
I haven't tested Shackles, but my instincts say no. The deck hardly needs any late-game cards against creature decks; more Slivers would fulfil that role more reliably.
It is also a target for the ever-popular Pithing Needle.

Other creature removal simply can't hold a candle to Swords to Plowshares, and running blatantly suboptimal cards seems counterintuitive in a deck filled with efficient library manipulation. I'd advocate running a stronger permission suite instead, that gives you far greater flexibility.

Volt
12-22-2006, 05:46 PM
I haven't tested Shackles, but my instincts say no. The deck hardly needs any late-game cards against creature decks; more Slivers would fulfil that role more reliably.
It is also a target for the ever-popular Pithing Needle.

Other creature removal simply can't hold a candle to Swords to Plowshares, and running blatantly suboptimal cards seems counterintuitive in a deck filled with efficient library manipulation. I'd advocate running a stronger permission suite instead, that gives you far greater flexibility.

I agree. I'm gravitating toward sort of a Hatfield-esque build, with more cantrips and counterspells, although this deck will never run 12+ cantrips. It looks like this:

18 lands

4 Crystalline
4 Muscle
4 Plated
3 Winged
2 Harmonic

4 StP
4 FoW
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent

This build features a strong permission suite that puts up a lot of resistance against combo and helps stave off late-game bombs in other matchups.

As always, the Harmonic Slivers could be replaced with Talon Slivers. I favor Harmonics because they help make up for the lack of Dazes by allowing you to deal with problem enchantments and artifacts after they've hit the board. You never have to scoop to a resolved Chalice, Worship, Solitary Confinement, etc. Whichever one you decide to maindeck, the other one should go in the sideboard.

And I'm going to continue pimping the 10 cantrips. The old 8-cantrip engine is adequate (barely), but I strongly feel that the deck flows better with 10. As Pinder stated in an earlier post, it's the perfect compromise between too few and too many.

The downside is that this build is not quite as strong against Goblins and other aggro as previous builds have been. It still fares better than UGw Thresh, Hanni Fish, and the like, though.

Pinder
12-22-2006, 06:25 PM
18 lands

4 Crystalline
4 Muscle
4 Plated
3 Winged
2 Harmonic

4 StP
4 FoW
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent


Huh. For a deck called Countersliver, turns out some sort of combination of counters and slivers is best. Whoda thunk?

Not sure about a deck with no Talons or Worship, though. But like you said, Talons could easily be put in over Harmonics. I think that would be a good move, especially since this list packs a bunch more permission to keep problems off the table.

xsockmonkeyx
12-22-2006, 07:25 PM
Props to you Volt. The new list looks amazing. Do you have anything as far as a sideboard for it?