[Deck] UWb Fish

[Hanni]

Prologue

I'd like to begin by saying that I've been playing magic since I was in 6th grade and a junior in college now. I've only played casual magic off and on throughout the years until recently. I came back to the game about 10 months ago and started by playing on Apprentice at magic-league with my old U/W Rebel Go (or Counter Rebel) deck. After getting beaten a few times by some really good decks, I decided to try and make the deck competitive. I did alot of research, starting with the Legacy tournament reports on wizards.com (GP Lille and Philly). I was really interested in two decks: Threshold and BW Deadguy. Throughout tremendous playtesting and tweaking, I came up with a relatively solid list, consisting of 4 Ramosian Sergeant and 4 Whipcorder as the decks only Rebels. I splashed black into it for Dark Confidant, Duress, and Vindicate, and the deck became UWb Rebels.

I stopped playing magic again for a while and when I came back, the Cold Snap patch was available for Apprentice but the expansion had not yet been released. I seen Jotun Grunt and immediately knew that it had to be in the deck... in the maindeck. I replaced the Rebels with Jotun Grunt and Stormscape Apprentice. The deck was no longer UWb Rebels, it was UWb Fish.

I stopped using Apprentice and started using MWS for playtesting.

After more extensive playtesting and tweaking over the course of a few months, I came up with the current list a few weeks ago. There are some similar versions of this decklist floating around, although I believe mine was the first posted. There are a few different directions that the deck can go in, but I've tried just about everything for this deck, and I my current list has given me the best results so far.

I'm calling this deck Hanni Fish just to differentiate it from the other UWb decks that are roaming around but that's just a name (for this decklist) and the deck is essentially Fish. Anyway, here's the deck:

UWb Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (18)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
4 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb

Lots of good additional content can be found here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29779.0

Note: The information below may contradict with the decklist above due to modifications made after this thread was created.

Deck Design and Concepts

The deck is relatively similar to U/G/x Threshold... it runs off of a very low cc engine, a low land count, and it is blue-based aggro/control. There are some very large differences though.

Let me begin by saying that this deck abuses the cheap cc and "free" cards in the format. This allows the deck match the speed of the Legacy format, it also allows the deck to run a lower land count so that the deck draws into more business (spells and creatures) and less lands. However, the low land base is relatively protected by a solid draw engine and disruption/protection package.

One large concept(s) of the deck that is not inherently noticed is the differential between card quality and card advantage versus the opponent. This is something that should be kept in mind while playing with or against the deck. The creatures are somewhat like 2-for-1 in that they have additional utility abilities besides being aggro that puts on a clock. This in itself creates a form of card advantage (making drawing creatures almost the same as drawing 2 cards). However, cards like Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage distinctly make a differential in card advantage. Dark Confidant creates card advantage for me and Meddling Mage creates card disadvantage for my opponents. The deck also runs 8 cantrips and 4 Duress. The 8 cantrips do not create card advantage but they create card quality, which has been established as a solid concept via U/G/x Threshold. The ability to thin through the deck and draw for better threats/answers gives the deck card quality. Having the right answers at the right time is important for the deck. The 4 Duress is similar in function to the cantrip; it creates a differential in card quality. However, Duress decreases the opponent's card quality rather than increasing my own. Cards like Umezawa's Jitte and Mother of Runes provide reusable effects that can also create card advantage.

Another important thing to remember about the draw engine (4 Confidant and 8 cantrip) is that it allows the deck to run lower amounts of certain cards without necessarily reducing the consistency of seeing it (2 Umezawa's Jitte maindeck is a prime example). It also makes sideboard options much more effective.

The deck itself is extremely synergistic. Most of the cards are entwined together with synergy. A great example of this is turn 1 Duress followed by turn 2 Meddling Mage. Another great example is how cards like Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Duress, and the fetchlands fill the graveyard for Jotun Grunt to feed off of. UWb is a beautiful color combination, the allied colors provide a tremendous amount of benefit with eachother.

Fish was a deck that was created in Vintage. It carries the concept that it has a very bad game against aggro but I hardly believe that is the case. Legacy is a very aggro-oriented format and I believe that the color combinations of UWb make for an aggro/control deck that has solid matchups against opposing aggro strategies with amazing matchups against control, combo, and aggro/control. U/G/x Threshold has been considered, from many sources, as having solid matchups against nearly everything in the format (I stress the word nearly). This deck is no exception; it has similar matchups against opposing decks as U/G/x Threshold does.

Why would I run this deck instead of Threshold? It's a bit harder to hate out because it doesn't have as strong of a reliance on the graveyard as Threshold does (and Jotun Grunt is a double edged blade; it also hoses the opponent's graveyards). It lacks in fat a little, though 3 Jotun Grunt and 2 Serra Avenger make for a solid fat package and the 3 Mother of Runes make the smaller creatures of Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage much more effective. The deck runs Duress, which Threshold does not, as well as Umezawa's Jitte. Both of these are advantages in my opinion. Umezawa's Jitte is simply amazing in aggro/control, especially in Fish.

Another large concept of the deck is the necessity to establish an early game dominance, in both card quality/advantage and board position. The deck can, typically, easily ride a victory if it neutralizes the opponent's early game threats (this is mostly directed towards aggro). Although the deck does not fall on its face if it does not do this, it gains a very favorable position when it does. The deck has the tools necessary to establish an early game dominance. The whole concept of establishing early game dominance has a direct relation with tempo. The deck wants to always be one step ahead of the opponent, whether it be in hand advantage, board position, etc.

I would also like to say that this deck is extremely consistent.

Card Choices

I'd like to go into detail a little bit about specific card explanations, reasonings for being in the deck, and why they are ran at the amounts that they are ran at.

7 fetchlands
6-8 is a solid amount for this deck, so I went with 7. The shuffle effects synergize with Brainstorm and Jotun Grunt to an extent and the thinning decreases the chance of mana flood (since this deck requires very few lands to function). I chose to run 4 Flooded Strand instead of 3 Polluted Delta because only Flooded Strand can fetch the lone Plains.

4/3/1 Duals
The deck is primarily blue with a heavy splash of white and a light splash of black. Since the deck is allied colors, all 7 fetchlands will grab any of the Duals. I feel that the 4/3/1 split of Tundra/Underground Sea/Scrubland fits the decks color requirements perfectly. The lone Scrubland gets fetched out when the deck has a Tundra out and needs double white for Serra Avenger.

1/1 Basic Lands
The basic lands provide protection against non-basic hate, most specifically in the form of Wasteland. The lone Island is tutorable by all 7 fetchlands while the lone Plains is only fetchable by the 4 Flooded Strand. The deck functions much better with dual lands, and fetching for basic lands should be kept to a minimum to increase effeciency, thus why I only run 2 basic lands. One Island and 1 Plains is more than enough to cast most of the spells in the deck in the face of Wasteland, I felt that the light splash of black was not worth running a lone Swamp for.

I think the manabase is extremely solid, if not perfect for my curve.

16 creatures is a solid amount of aggro for the deck, although the 3 Mother of Runes are mainly utility. I'm not an avid fan of extremely low creature bases in aggro/control decks and 16 suits me fine.

3 Mother of Runes gives the deck a solid 1 drop that answers Goblin Lackey and provides utility usage for the rest of my aggro package. Mother of Runes makes combat situations much more dominant. Mother of Runes itself effectively chump blocks anything without trample or flying as long as it's not an artifact creature. More importantly than what I've already mentioned, she provides reusable protection against spot removal (aside from cards like Diabolic Edict) for my entire creature base, giving the deck a Nimble Mongoose-like untargetability effect. Probably the most important aspect of Mother of Runes is that she turns the weak aggro of Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage (which represents the largest portion of aggro in the deck) into threats, psuedo Silver Knights if you will. Mother of Runes has consistently pulled her weight in the deck and I feel that she gives the aggro package of this edge a tremendous amount of advantages to warrant her inclusion. Another thing to remember is that she is still a creature and she can still swing a Jitte. I only run 3 of her due to my draw engine and the fact that more than 1 in play is often overkill (2 is fine, but 3 or more becomes excessive).

Jotun Grunt may be seen as a temporary, hard to play threat that is questionable as a maindeck creature. I completely disagree. His ability to hose graveyards is invaluable in this format. The ability to destroy an opponent's Threshold, remove Life from the Loam, Eternal Dragon, Darkblast, etc are invaluable. He's a 2cc 4/4 that gives the deck a very solid fat drop. The deck supports his upkeep considerably well with cantrips, fetchlands, Duress, etc.

Serra Avenger has seen a fair deal of discussion but generally disregarded due to it's ability to not come into play until turn 4. If there is a deck in the format that can support her, it's this deck. This deck isn't reliant upon dumping creatures as early as possible in the first few turns to go for the throat. During the first few turns the deck is establishing an early game dominance, playing cantrip, (other) creatures, control elements, so on and so forth. Waiting to drop a Serra Avenger until turn 4 is rarely an issue. She gives the deck additional muscle, being a 2cc 3/3. However, the fact that she has flying and vigilance (and I stress both abilities, not 1 or the other) is just huge. She's evasive and she can block and kill most of the threats in the format, doubling over as aggression and defense. She is ungodly with a Jitte. 2 felt to be the appropriate number because I don't want her clogging up my early game hands. Some people seem to think that Serra Avenger isn't viable without Vial, though Vial only makes her come down a turn sooner and is unnecessary for her success. Other people dismiss her in this deck because of the double white requirement. The deck sufficiently runs enough cantrip to get 2 white sources and by turn 4, it shouldn't be a problem. Pithing Needle resolves the Wasteland and Rishadan Port issues, out of the sideboard, if necessary.

Dark Confidant is card advantage on an aggro stick; a 2cc 2/1 isn't bad but when it draws you a card every turn, it becomes nuts. The deck's very low cc curve of 19 1cc spells and 20 2cc spells (especially with Jitte) easily negates the life loss. I run 4 to optimize my seeing him, because Confidant wins games. I want to see him early game a large majority of the time. Drawing into multiple Confidants can often be negated with the cantrips but having 2 Confidant's in play isn't always a bad thing. I run 4 because Confidant is awesome.

Meddling Mage is an amazing answer to so much in the format. It cripples combo, prevents the opponent from playing removal (especially mass removal), and does so much more. It becomes even nuttier with Duress. At the same time, it's still a 2cc 2/2 that puts on a clock. I run 4 because Meddling Mage is awesome.

Brainstorm and Serum Visions are the best cantrips in this format, at least in my opinion, and I run the full 4 of both of them. I felt that, with 4 Dark Confidant and 4 Duress, that 8 cantrips were a solid configuration. Too many cantrips leads to digging into more cantrips and losing tempo (by investing mana into something that's not actually a real threat/answer), while too little don't provide the necessary card quality and dig that the deck demands. 6-10 is a solid number of cantrips but I feel that the deck is most comfortable with 8. They are also pitchable to Force of Will if need be.

The whole point of running blue, especially as the main color (and aside from the cantrip), is for a countermagic suite. I've playtested with different congifurations for a long time and ultimately sided with a 4/3/2 split of Force of Will/Daze/Counterspell. 4 FoW in any primarily blue based deck is almost mandatory for the format, regardless of the card disadvantage, due to it being an instant-speed hard counter. I only run 3 Daze because, while it may be extremely effective within the early stages of the game, it is typically useless in the mid-late game. Mid-late game Dazes can be pitched to FoW, so I'm content running 3 while running 2 reduces the chance your going to see it early game when you need it anyway and running 4 just gives the deck more dead weight later on. Counterspell comes in where Daze leaves off, being dead weight early in the game but becoming very valuable in the mid-late game. With 2, I reduce my chances of having them in my hand early game. Especially with the cantrip, my chances of drawing into them mid-late are relatively good.

Swords to Plowshares is, in my opinion, the best spot removal spell in the format. 1cc instant speed that removes a creature of any size is amazing. The life gain that the opponent gains isn't really an issue since this decks primary goal isn't a fast paced aggro strategy anyway. I don't think that my running of 4 of these should even be questionable.

Duress is a card that some people love and some people hate. I personally love the card, but it just does so much more in this deck. As I explained above, it creates a differential of card quality between me and my opponent. I also explained that it has distinct synergies with the rest of the deck, allowing me to name off spells that are in the opponent's hand with Meddling Mage, knowing what to counter or use removal on, etc. Duress is an amazing tool against combo and blue based control and blue based aggro/control. Duress allows me to draw out my opponent's spot removal so that my creatures can come into play safely. It dumps into the graveyard easily to assist in funding Jotun Grunt. For all of these great effects, it only costs 1cc. Drawing them later in the game can sometimes be worthless but the cantrip generally does a good job of negating this. Some people argue that the card sucks in aggro/control because it doesn't create tempo like countermagic does. I think that the deck already has an incredible amount of of tempo and that the card quality differential it creates completely overrules the lack-of-tempo argument. Not only that, I'm still not quite sure how it gives the deck bad tempo in the first place. Duress is useless in the Goblin matchup but are sideboarded out for Engineered Plague. If Goblins is heavy in a given meta, a 2/2 split of Duress/Cabal Therapy can be run. I run the full 4 of Duress because they are frickin amazing in this deck.

I've seen alot of people say that Umezawa's Jitte sucks in this sort of deck, decreasing tempo far too greatly. I completely disagree. Umezawa's Jitte is beyond amazing in aggro/control, especially Fish. It enhances the smaller creatures into monstrosity-sized threats. It provides a tremendous amount of control putting creatures out of Lightning Bolt range, gaining life, and killing off the opponent's creatures (card advantage). It's extremely good at opposing aggro, especially Goblins. 4 mana (2 and 2) is well-worth-it investment for a card as amazing as Jitte. I run 2 maindeck to avoid drawing into multiples (where they become deadweight), because they are less useful against non-aggro based strategies, and because my draw engine effectively makes me see them more often than it actually appears on paper. I sideboard in a 3rd Jitte for most aggro matchups.

I'm not going to go into detail about my sideboard. Sideboards are generally metagame dependant so variations in sideboards will always exist. My sideboard is a general answer to everything that the deck might face at a large legacy event and some (most) of my sideboard choices are devoted to helping out my more problematic matchups/cards.

I've tried alot of cards in this deck, from Vindicate to Spiketail Hatchling to Aether Vial to Wasteland to everything, and this is what I found to be the greatest performing list so far.

Matchup Analysis

The deck has favorable matchups against Threshold and Solidarity preboard and postboard. That's 2/3 of the Tier 1 in itself. The deck goes roughly 50/50 with Goblins preboard with Goblins having a slight favorability game 1, while the matchup becomes 60/40 or even 70/30 after sideboarding. The deck handles the Tier 1 decks of the format incredibly well, and that in itself should make the deck desirable. The deck does have a few problematic matchups though.

Black-based aggro/control decks like B/w Deaduy and B/r Sui can be difficult. My deck runs a 3 color manabase with 17 lands, so the land denial strategies of these decks can sometimes be crippling. My large amount of fetchlands and cantrips (draw engine in general) help to negate this, as well as my disruption package of free countermagic and Duress, but land denial can sometimes be an issue. Discard effects can also be crippling against blue-based control, which is another disadvantage for me. Again, my cantrip/draw engine and disruption package help to combat this. I believe B/w Deadguy is much easier than B/r Sui because B/r Sui is far more aggressive, though my deck doesn't roll over to either deck. The matchups are difficult but they can be won. Gladly, neither of these decks are overly popular enough to worry about too much. My sideboard options against them can include Pithing Needle and Umezawa's Jitte (Engineered Explosives isn't very effective).

Chalice of the Void set at 1 and 2 can wreck Fish. Stax, 5/3 Artifact Aggro, and Faerie Stompy run Chalice. Luckily for me, these decks aren't extremely popular, though Engineered Explosives set to 0 handles Chalice pretty well. I also run Serenity in my board. I don't think that Stax and 5/3 are too difficult of matchups (aside from Chalice) though I haven't had much playesting experience against either so I really have no idea. Luckily for me, Faerie Stompy is often inconsistent, empties its hand fast with a lack of card quality/advantage, and has a very shaky manase. Cards like Swords to Plowshares, Daze, and the like can offset them and ruin them completely.

I've had great success against Affinity in the past but recent playtesting against it shows that it might be more problematic than I anticipated. Sometimes they explode extremely fast, while Ravager puts up alot of resilience for removal. As long as I can prevent them from exploding too greatly early on, it's not hard to dominate the mid-late (3-4 Thoughcast is a poor refill engine). Board hate can come in the form of Jitte, Serenity, Engineered Explosives, and Pithing Needle. It's not an easy matchup but it's not something that dominates me either.

Angel Stompy is the last problematic matchup for me to discuss. They have better aggro (not better creatures, better aggro) and more equipment with more creature removal. The key is to keep them from exploding early on, keeping Exalted Angel off the table at all costs while keeping their equipment off the table as well. Parallax Wave can be crippling, especially a double Wave, because it protects their creatures and clears the way of mine so they can launch an offensive. Their Mother of Runes also makes it difficult. As long as I can stabilize, Jotun Grunt and Serra Avenger out-fat them (when they don't have Angel). They lack card advantage/quality which is an extremely important concept that needs to be abused in this matchup in order to secure a win. Engineered Explosives, Serenity, Jitte, and Pithing Needle can come out of the board to greatly increase the favorability of this matchup.

I won't discuss 9 Land Stompy, G/R Beats, or Zoo because, although they aren't easy matchups, they aren't difficult either. They are relatively solid matchups that I would say I have a favorable matchup against. Jitte, Perish, and Engineered Explosives can come out of the board to help this matchup depending on their decklist.

Tournament Results

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4408

So basically, I placed 10th Day 2. This was my first tournament and I made a ton of misplays and mistakes. I only played on MWS for testing so my real life game skills were a little unexperienced. I pilot my deck very well but stupid mistakes like forgetting to pay Jotun Grunt's upkeep happened at the most inopportune times. I feel that I could have easily made Top 8 both days but unfortunately I did not. 10th place isn't too bad though and I'll redeem myself at the next large Legacy event.

Epilogue

Some things I've considered after the tournament:

Almost all of the Threshold players were playing maindeck Pithing Needle. Needle was such an awesome card all day for them (I played against it and I watched others use it) and I'm considering dropping 2 maindeck Counterspells for 2 maindeck Pithing Needles. This would also free up my sideboard.

I playtested Goblins alot and my results were always good against them but I did pretty bad against them at this event. I'm considering adding additional board hate for them, possibly adding in a Darkblast or 2 if I maindeck 2 Pithing Needles.

I'm also not sure if I want to drop an Engineered Explosives out of my sideboard for a Serenity. Serenity just seemed to be more valuable to me in the Angel Stompy matchups. It's much more effective at Affinity. I didn't come across Chalice at the Duel for Duals though, so I'm not sure that I want to drop the 3rd Explosives.

There's alot of directions that the deck can be taken (Cloud of Faeries, Ninja of the Deep Hours, etc), but I like this build alot.

All in all, I'm very pleased with my deck and I believe it could quite possibly become the next Tier 1 aggro/control deck.

[tivadar]

So, my first instinct woudn't to be to compare this to threshold, but rather 3c Angel Stompy. Have you looked at Phil's build? What advantages does this have over that? It seems to me that this deck is a slower, but has better card draw/consistency/counters. However, does this really make it worth it? You say yourself AS is a problem matchup.

Not trying to shoot it down, but I'm just wondering how these two decks compare, the lists are pretty close, minus the exalteds of course.

[Hanni]

Well, 3c AS is white based with black and blue splashes.

UGw Threshold is blue based with white and green splashes.

My deck is sorta like a mix between 3c AS and UGw Threshold.

The thing about this deck is that it's not meant to be over aggressive like Angel Stompy. The deck isn't trying to play threats like Silver Knight for an aggresively quick win. Not only that, this deck cannot support the double white casting cost of Silver Knight and Soltari Priest. Running Exalted Angels in a deck with 4 Dark Confidant and 4 Force of Will (already) seems a bit like suicide to me.

I'm not sure how much better 3c AS is against the rest of the metagame but I went 2-0 against it on Day 2 of the Duel for Duals (probably a fluke). It seems like it has a worse Solidarity matchup and a better Goblin matchup. I'm not quite sure about the differences between Threshold but my deck has a great matchup against Threshold already.

Goblins proved to be more difficult at the tournament than it was in testing, so a better Goblins matchup is always good. I still like UWb Fish better than 3c AS though, it has more emphasis on control and less emphasis on aggro. That's the sort of player that I am, I love playing with Force of Will and other countermagic.

UWb Fish also seems to be more consistent than 3c AS.

EDIT:

I made the following changes to the deck:

MD
-2 Counterspell
-1 Duress
+3 Stifle

SB
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Duress

Basically, I decided that Stifle was a great card for the deck. It has natural synergy with the Jotun Grunt's in my deck. It allows Jotun Grunt's to come into play earlier. It allows Jotun Grunt's to swing for an extra turn. If anything, it's pitchable to FoW. It's also very disruptive and it does so with tempo. It gives the deck additional protection against early Wastelands, making the manabase more stable. It hits cycle card that were otherwise unstoppable, such as Gemalm Incinerator. The tempo that it creates against cards like Pernicious Deeds is nutty. It's another way to stop an early game Lackey and Fanatics (on Mom) or mid-late game Ringleaders and Matrons. It's cheap and fits the decks curves much better, costing only 1cc.

Stifles give my deck a much better game 1 against Goblins, which is exactly what I felt the deck needed. It does so without sacrificing it's matchups against Threshold and Solidarity (hitting fetchlands, hitting Grunt, or pitching to FoW).

The Counterspells were good but I really felt like the deck just didn't need them. The 2 mana investment was difficult to leave open when the deck wants to play 2cc creatures and sorcery speed cantrip or Duress. The double blue required the deck to obtain 2 blue sources and competed with Serra Avengers WW cost (and Avenger does more for the deck than Counterspell). They were additional hard counters, though Stifle gives the deck more reach. Duress and StP usually do what Counterspell does, though Duress does it with less tempo. Either way, they were the weakest link and I felt Stifle did more for the deck.

Duress has been amazing in this deck. Cutting them out of the deck completely is pretty much out of the question, at least in my build. Cutting them down to 3 isn't bad though, since they are much like Daze in the fact that they are amazing early on but get worse as the game progresses. 3 Should ensure I get to see them, especially with the cantrip and draw engine. I felt I'd rather have 3 Stifle and 3 Duress rather than 2 Stifle and 4 Duress.

I was debating whether I wanted 3/2 or 2/3 Serenity/Engineered Explosives, but I decided to go with a 2/2 split. If I see Affinity and Stax alot, I'd board 3 Serenity. If I see alot of Chalice and Zoo, I'll board 3 Engineered Explosives. However, Duress comes in against Threshold and Solidarity or possibly other matchups as well.

I'm also trying to decide if I want to do a 2/1 split of Duress/Cabal Therapy.

I edited the original decklist to reflect these changes.

[nightshade81]

Let me start off by saying I really like this deck and it's a fun alternative to Threshold. I've played this deck and other versions a few times and have been presently surprised with its performance across the field.

One disadvantage of this deck is it's defense. It has very little to deal with creatures swinging into it. Grunt is no Werebear and can't sit back and soak up damage. Serra Avenger very good at it but doesn’t come online till turn 4, is WW, and is only a 2 of. This is a reason to run additional Jittes, more creature removal, or other creatures.

One of my friends commented that "Jitte is the deck" and I would have to agree. This deck really needs Jitte to hit play in most of its aggro match-ups so I generally run three. Yes it's horrible to draw multiples but if you are drawing multiples your most likely winning the game anyway because you have Jitte on the table. One of the great advantages of this deck over Thres is the ability to run Jitte and should be taken advantage of.

I have tested a large list of creatures of this deck and I really like your current list for the UWB version.

My current list only varies form yours by
-3 Stifle
+2 Counterspell
+1 Jitte

Some of other idea's that I have tested that I go back and forth between is Misdirection and Edict. Though mostly Edict. It's a very strong card and able to deal this the most troublesome creatures.

One final note is that you need Armageddon in the SB for Rifter and other control.

[Hanni]

Well, there are other defensive measures against aggro. I run 3 Mother of Runes, which makes aggro matchups much better. I sideboard a 3rd Jitte and 2 Engineered Explosives when necessary. The countermagic can answer problematic creatures if need be. I actually built this deck to try and handle aggro, since Fish was usually dismissed for being terrible in aggro heavy metagames.

The reason I run 3 Stifle maindeck is because they have natural synergy with Jotun Grunt... but more importantly, they address Goblins very well. Goblins is the most important aggro matchup to address because not only is it a very popular deck, it's also difficult to play against.

I also don't really like Armageddon vs Rifter, since the deck runs such a low land count. I've found that Serenity and Pithing Needle are pretty amazing in that matchup, with countermagic to protect the Serenity's/Needles and my creatures as well.

[nightshade81]

I was just about to edit my post to include Mom when you replied. Yes, Mom is a very good defensive card but it has two major flaws. One is it will never kill anything unless it has a Jitte and two it is rather easy to remove in the early game. If you tap Mom to give itself protection from a color to block, it will generally get removed in response. I'm not saying that Mom shouldn't be in the deck, because I'm not. It's the best one-drop in UWB and should be included. I'm just saying the deck has areas of weakness that could be worked on.


I also don't really like Armageddon vs Rifter

Seeing as you wrote that I'm 90% sure you haven't even tested Armageddon vs Rifter. In game two all you need to do is hold back 2 land and around turn 7 drop a Geddon and the game is yours. With this and similar decks Rifter game 2 becomes a cake walk. I have never lost games 2 & 3 to Rifter playing UW aggro-control. Although game one should be theirs.

[Hanni]

I never said Armageddon wasn't good against Rifter, I was saying that Serenity and Pithing Needle get the job done. Those cards are also very versatile sideboard options, applying to a large number of other decks. Rifter isn't a popular deck anymore, at least not here, so sideboarding something for it is sorta irrelevant. Like I said, too, my deck runs 17 lands, Armageddon is 4cc, and it destroys all my lands in the process.

Stifle is pretty good against Rifter too, since it stops their Slice and Dice and such.

Overall, I've never really had problems playing against Rifter. Making sure to keep key spells from resolving is pretty important. The deck doesn't necessarily need to keep it's threats protected constantly as long as it can put the Rifter player on a sufficient clock before they can stabalize. Meddling Mage is a pro here and Dark Confidant gives the necessary card advantage to win.

As far as Mom goes, early Duress and countermagic help get here into play resolved. Your right about her chump blocking, though naming removal with Meddling Mage or countermagic/Duress can help with that.

EDIT:

Although I haven't made any changes to the MD or SB, I changed my sideboard plan vs Goblins.

The current SB plan is:

-1 Jotun Grunt
-3 Daze
-3 Duress
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Pithing Needle

If anyone is interested in why I choose the cards I removed and why I choose the cards I added, feel free to ask and I'll explain it.

[Tobias Moeller]

I'm just testing the following list:

UWB Straight Fish (60)

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
4x Wasteland
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

Creatures
4x Meddling Mage
3x Mother of Runes
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Dark Confidant

Spells

3x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Repeal
2x Counterspell
1x Darkblast
4x Serum Visions
4x Force of Will

Sideboard (15)
3x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Plague
2x Disenchant
2x Divert
3x Armageddon
2x Perish

I'm still looking for a nice finisher. The Avenger seems to be a good creature. I will test it.
The Darkblast is just an idea in a heavy Goblin Meta. The Repeals are very nice, because you always find something to bounce. e.g. the protect your creatures, bounce your Grunt, remove creatures and counter them...Worship...
It would be also nice after playing a Duress (not in this list) to bounce your Meddling Mage.

[Lukas Preuss]

I just wanted to mention that UWb Fish finished third in the Dutch Legacy Championship yesterday, piloted by Christian "Windux" Wilczek. This deck is really, really strong and should become a powerful contender in the metagame.

[al the great]

I just wanted to mention that UWb Fish finished third in the Dutch Legacy Championship yesterday, piloted by Christian "Windux" Wilczek. This deck is really, really strong and should become a powerful contender in the metagame.

Could you get us the deck list? Thanks.

[Windux]

It's nearly the same as Hanni#s list is.

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (16)
2 Serra Avenger
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
3 Serenity
4 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant

I though, there would be much Affinity or Staxx-decks, like on every tournament with no known meta.
But? No Staxx, no Affiniy, not even Enchantress.

I played 6-0 (12:1) and ID'ed the last 2 rounds, making T8 as 2nd afters Swiss.

Quarters: Won 2:0 against a friend, who was in the same car like me. he palyed RW Goblins

Semi-Finals: Lost to WG confinement, after a 1-1 and a mulligan down to 5, having a good hand (good for 5 handcards...) but he had just 7 good handcards.

I played in the Swss against:
Goblins
UG Madness w/Counter
(Small)Pox [Like the list in this forum]
Burn [won on 15 Life..Double Meddling Mage, followe by a Jitte are just good. 3 Daze in Game 3 + Mage = better]
Stasis [there is lost my only game]
One deck, I can't remember

Maybe more ;)

[al the great]

Interesting deck. Someone's finally found good use of Serra Avengers.

[Cavius The Great]

So, my first instinct woudn't to be to compare this to threshold, but rather 3c Angel Stompy. Have you looked at Phil's build? What advantages does this have over that? It seems to me that this deck is a slower, but has better card draw/consistency/counters. However, does this really make it worth it? You say yourself AS is a problem matchup.

Not trying to shoot it down, but I'm just wondering how these two decks compare, the lists are pretty close, minus the exalteds of course.

Angel Stompy is Angel Stompy becuase it runs Ancient Tomb. This deck doesnt run Tomb for acceleration, it doesn't need to becuase of the "weenie-like" creature base. I wouldn't compare HanniFish to Angel Stompy at all.

[Hanni]

Congratulations on your 3rd place finish Windux. I'm suprised that you lost to Stasis and not Goblins.

How was Counterspell working out for you? I found that I liked Stifle better than Counterspell in the deck, but Counterspells are still really solid.

It seems like UWb Fish is starting to make appearances in alot of Top 8's... the PT Kobe side event and now at Championship tournaments in other countries. I wonder much popularity it's going to get before GP Columbus. I was kinda hoping to pilot it as a rogue deck there so I wouldn't have much board hate against me but it looks like that's not going to happen.

[Windux]

I won 2:1 against Stasis, so I lost just one game (not match).
My Hand in the 2nd Game was just so! broken.
Scrubland, Fetch, Duress, Meddling Mage, Serum Vision, Serum Vision and Dark Confidant
But he started with Land, Root Maze.
So my broken hand was just a..not that good hand.
I started with Brushland, to Duress him on the 2nd Turn. But I drew a Daze after that, what was really bad.
He just dropped Stasis and Chronatog at the time I was tapped out.
So I was in a hardlock.

Against Goblins I just can say: Serra Avenger is insane!
Along with Jitte, you can't lose :)

Counterspell fits great in the Deck. I played it, because in the past (GPT and GP Lille) I had much success with NQG/w, where I palyed exactly the same Counter-Split and Meddling Mages. Grunts in the Main was also my plan for Gro (among with Quirion Dryad).

Somethink like: Mongoose, Meddling Mage, Jotun Grunt and Serra Avenger.

That also was the reason, why I started to test UWB Fish.
I also would think about, to play 3 Counterspells, if you playing Duress and not Repeal.
Repeal over Duress is also the thing, what I'm going to test.
Repeal is good against dropped Humility's, Confinements*, Worship(+untargetable Creature) and other random-crap you can't fight against or just need to long to win with decking your opponent.
You still have a synergie with between Repeal and Meddling Mage.You can bounce them and drop it on the stuff, you don't want see to be played.
Also you can bounce your "Too-high Upkeep Costs"-Grunt oder just dying creatures of your own.


*Even, if you can't get decked with Jotun Grunts.

[Hanni]

But Repeal is not a permanent answer to anything and this deck has access to Disenchant, Serenity, Vindicate, Engineered Explosives, etc if it needs to deal with things like Humility and Worship. Tempo advantage is nice but it's not going to help if you can't capatilize on that tempo and they replay the card next turn.

I do like the synergy between Repeal and Jotun Grunt, though Stifle has much better tempo and is more useful overall. With Repeal, you spend 3 mana to bounce Grunt and then 2 mana to replay him... with Stifle, it's just 1 mana. Stifle also protects the manabase against Wasteland, stops cycling abilities that can't be countered like Gempalm Incinerator and Decree of Justice, plus everything else it stops.

I've also had problems leaving UU open to cast Counterspell, especially early game. It's been a bit slow for me and I decided to go with Stifle and Duress instead. It also conflicts with early mana source development if you run Serra Avengers.

So basically, Counterspell isn't bad and I used to run them. I'm not suggesting that you drop them because they are good. What I am suggesting is that Repeal is not that good in here.

[Hanni]

Umm... why did this get moved out of the Proven Forum and back to the Developmental Forum? I thought this deck was already established as a contender for the format...?

[Citrus-God]

Umm... why did this get moved out of the Proven Forum and back to the Developmental Forum? I thought this deck was already established as a contender for the format...?

The Top 8 Windux made was impressive, as well as the one in Japan. But I dont think this deck is played enough to actually valid it in the Proven Forum. I would say it deserves it's slot in here. This deck has such an impressive match-up against Thresh and Combo. But I think the reasn the deck is called Fish is because it's a metagame deck. I honestly dont think Rifter belongs up there either.

[Volt]

It's at least as much of a contender as Burn, The Rock, MUC, 5/3, and several other decks currently in The Open. Are we sure this thread didn't accidentally get bumped down here after the board reset yesterday?

[Windux]

It's not a metagame-hate Deck like the T1 Fish in my opinion.
It's just the disruption from the T1 UWB Fish.

You have disruption against almost every deck.
Against Combo and Control you have Meddling Mage and Duress who are the nuts.
Against Aggro you have Jitte, Grunt and Avenger, who just flys above the opponents board (and don't speaking of having a Jitte in his hands).

And this cards not death against any deck. Even against Goblins, Duress can help you. I just dropped Meddling Mage on Goblin Warchief after a Duress showed me, that my oppo had 2 or I dropped Meddling Mage on a, with Ringleader, revealed card.
So you see, self this cards are not useless against Goblins, even if this are normally Control/Combo-Hates.

I would call this "Destructive-Solution.dec" instead of UWB Fish.
Fish just wants to disrupt at any cost and plays only Hate.
This Fish is just aggroish with cards, who can beat your oppo AND disrupt him.
T1 Fish plays much less aggro (if you don't look at Negator, who isn't playable in T1.5)

[xsockmonkeyx]

This deck is really, really strong and should become a powerful contender in the metagame.

Quoted for truth.

[Hanni]

Fish is as much a metagame deck as Threshold.

People seem to think this deck was built to beat a specific metagame of combo and Threshold but that's not the case. Yes, the deck is extremely favorable against 2/3's of the Tier 1. That doesn't mean it sucks against everything else.

The deck has solid matchups against nearly everything and doesn't really roll over to anything in the format, similar to Threshold.

The deck may not be overly popular yet but that doesn't mean it's not been proven effective. It placed 10th on Day 2 of the D4D, the same place that B/r Sui (Red Death) got at the D4D on day 1. Should B/r Sui be removed from the Proven Forum? Of course not. Should UWb Fish have been removed from the Proven Forum? Again, I have to say no.

It's already starting to get very good placings and it has just recently started to be played by more people than just me. It's got a few Top 8 placings already at some large enough events, as well as my 10th place finish at the D4D on Day 2. The deck is good, it's getting results, I don't see how it's still "new and developmental."

I'm not sure if this was an accidental move because the of the servers being messed up yesterday or not. Either way, the mods can leave this in the developmental forum if they feel that's where it's meant to be.

[Windux]

So made the first place again on a 16 players tournament.
Move this to proofen :)

I think Counterspell+Duress is the way to go.
Maybe 1-2 Vindicates in the Sideboard to remove stuff that just suck and costs more then 4 Mana, because otherwise we can board in 1-2 Explosives, who are never death.

[valor]

So made the first place again on a 16 players tournament.
Move this to proofen :)

I think Counterspell+Duress is the way to go.
Maybe 1-2 Vindicates in the Sideboard to remove stuff that just suck and costs more then 4 Mana, because otherwise we can board in 1-2 Explosives, who are never death.

I also placed 1st (actually draw due to the store closing but it was vs IGGy) in an 18ish person.
I disagree with Duress being Mainboard, I would use Stifle instead, although I completely agree on Counterspell. I had 4 Duress in the board and I never actually boarded it in nor do I regret never using it. On the other hand, Stifle saw as much use as a counter for me and saved me more than a few games, between Stifling fetches, random crap, and my own Grunts.

[Windux]

I played today against:
Life - Duress was ok, picked Eladamris Call (can pick more) and abled me some good Meddling Mages
Solidarity - Same like Life, just even better because you know the good spells.
Goblins - In the first game, at least it sets Medling Mage up (also Matrone and Ringleader do this)
WB AngelStompy - Picked Removal and Equipment.
Golden Grahams - Picks discard and tutors.
Burn - 1cc Counter.
Stompy: Can pick a Gro-Spell but not that good.

Duress allows you, to see your opponents hand and to know, what your Meddling Mage should be named and what spells you need to counter. It's just so unfair to know, what your opponent can do.

[valor]

I played today against:
Life - Duress was ok, picked Eladamris Call (can pick more) and abled me some good Meddling Mages
Solidarity - Same like Life, just even better because you know the good spells.
Goblins - In the first game, at least it sets Medling Mage up (also Matrone and Ringleader do this)
WB AngelStompy - Picked Removal and Equipment.
Golden Grahams - Picks discard and tutors.
Burn - 1cc Counter.
Stompy: Can pick a Gro-Spell but not that good.

Duress allows you, to see your opponents hand and to know, what your Meddling Mage should be named and what spells you need to counter. It's just so unfair to know, what your opponent can do.


I'm not denying its uses at all, and it's synergy with Mage is incredible, but it is best in the combo matchup which you can already win easily. That said if I were to add 1 more card to the deck it would without a doubt be Duress. However, to me it is a best a sideboard card, for these reasons:
Vs. Combo - Don't really need another card maindeck to weaken other matches.
Vs. Aggro - Obviously weaker, especially vs. Goblins when you'll know your facing Goblins first turn, Mage doesnt come down till at most turn 2 and this deck does need all the help vs. Gobs it can get, imo. Stifle is noticably stronger here as it: stops wastes, Vial activations, Port Activations, Matron, Lackey, Kiki-Jiki, Fanatic, basically everything but piledriver only because of pro-blue (which I never understood).
Vs. Control - You're playing the aggro here, and Stifle can be major tempo advantage. Not that theres very much control.
Also worth noting is that FoW is somewhat unreliable at 18 but at 22 I never have a situation where i can't either Force or Bstorm into a blue card.
It also doesnt accomplish much vs. Thresh.
And the main reason:
Of all those decks listed, I don't see any of them nor do I see any tier 1 decks. The only deck I can count on is Affinity and the rest is random, non aggro. While that might seem like a good place to run Duress, to help know what theyre playing, no one plays any combo worth worrying about. I still run Duress in the board but I've never needed it yet.
If I would make room for Duress it would be from Counterspell, I could never see taking out Stifle.
If it works for your strategy, then play it, those are just my reasons for not playing it.

At the risk of completely making myself look like an idiot, I will admit that I tested Exalted Angel to great success in the Avenger slot. It changes the way the deck is played slightly, but it kept my play tighter by not making me overcommit to Aggro, it provides a good game against random stuff (and Gobbos and Thresh) and while it is of course tough to get out, I find that against the randomness I face it is overall better. The lifeloss to Confidant with 2 Angels maindeck has more than evened out also. And Jitte+Exalted=gg.
I would say run Avenger in most cases, I love the card, but consider testing Exalted in the slot although I'm pretty sure most people will disagree and question my knowledge of how this deck works. The way I came about this was that I couldn't find enough Pithing Needles for my SB, so I ran an Angel for fun, and wound up boarding it in every game I think.

[Volt]

Stifle is noticably stronger here as it: stops wastes, Vial activations, Port Activations, Matron, Lackey, Kiki-Jiki, Fanatic, basically everything but piledriver only because of pro-blue (which I never understood).

Piledriver's triggered ability does not have prot:blue. It can be stifled.

[Hanni]

I disagree with Duress being Mainboard, I would use Stifle instead,

That's why I run both. A 3/3 split as been working very well for me.


although I completely agree on Counterspell.

I think that leaving UU open is very difficult. It does a great job of answering spells later on in the game but it does not help you achieve early game control/dominance. The deck already has countermagic with the Forces. The Dazes are soft but effective nonetheless. Duress acts as a hand removal card, attacking hand resources that would otherwise be Counterspelled. The deck can remove threats with StP if they are creature based, so that can sometimes act as a Counterspell. Stifle is basically a Counterspell vs Pernicious Deed, Gempalm Incinerator, etc but it has reach in areas where hard countering doesn't and it has natural synergy with Jotun Grunt. Each of these answers cost 0 or 1 mana, whereas Counterspell costs 2.

You can obviously run Counterspell in your build. I ran a 4/3/2 split at the D4D. I don't run them in my current build though. I constantly sided out Counterspells all day at the D4D, which is why I felt that they were the weakest link.


Duress allows you, to see your opponents hand and to know, what your Meddling Mage should be named and what spells you need to counter. It's just so unfair to know, what your opponent can do.

Duress has many functions for the deck. I have alot of discussion about Duresses appropriate role in the deck but I'll highlight some quick concepts:

The deck achieves control. One aspect of this control is through draw card advantage and advantages of card quality. This can be obviously seen by Dark Confidant and the 8 cantrip, but other cards in the deck effect this as well. Meddling Mage can cut off the opponent from playing a spell, acting as card advantage... but it's also a creature on a stick, so drawing Meddling Mage can be sort of like drawing 2 cards. Back to Duress though... the cantrip increases my card quality while Duress decreases my opponent's card quality. The additional benefits of knowing how to play the next 3-4 turns can win games. Turn 1 Duress followed by turn 2 Meddling Mage wins games (usually backed by a FoW or Daze).


but it is best in the combo matchup

I would have to agree here since Duress does royally pwn combo.


Vs. Aggro - Obviously weaker, especially vs. Goblins when you'll know your facing Goblins first turn, Mage doesnt come down till at most turn 2 and this deck does need all the help vs. Gobs it can get, imo. Stifle is noticably stronger here as it: stops wastes, Vial activations, Port Activations, Matron, Lackey, Kiki-Jiki, Fanatic, basically everything but piledriver only because of pro-blue (which I never understood).


It is weak vs Goblins, I agree. On the play, turn 1 Duress to remove Vial can sometimes be killer. Other than that, it's usually garbage. Against R/w Goblins it can remove StP's game 1, but usually it's bad. Knowing what the opponent has in hand can sometimes be relevant, but Duress isn't the greatest card for this matchup. Luckily, I take them out post board and I bring in 4 Engineered Plagues and 3 Pithing Needles. I already maindeck 3 Stifles and 2 Jittes. This strengthens my Goblins matchup alot.

Against just about every other type of aggro, Duress rocks. It really helps to remove the opponent's Lightning Bolt out of hand before trying to resolve a Mother of Runes for a turn. It also lets you know if they have more spot removal, so you can play your threats from hand in an order that would be most favorable to you (knowing they will be using removal). It can nail Jittes or SoFI's, it can nail SoTF's and tons more. I really don't find it too weak in most aggro matchups. I board them out vs Affinity, but they aren't too bad game 1. For Affinity, I have Serenity hate, 3rd Jitte, etc. Affinity hasn't really been a problem for me. Against Angel Stompy, Zoo, RGSA, and even Faerie Stompy, Duress is usually pretty good. It's solid vs B/r Sui, but they usually empty their hand fast so it can get boarded out if something else would be better. I don't think I board in anything else besides the 3rd Jitte against B/r Sui, probably dropping 1 Duress.


Vs. Control - You're playing the aggro here, and Stifle can be major tempo advantage. Not that theres very much control.
Also worth noting is that FoW is somewhat unreliable at 18 but at 22 I never have a situation where i can't either Force or Bstorm into a blue card.

Duress is very good against control. You remove the best card in their hand for 1cc, among the other uses of it. Pulling out Wrath of God saves you the hassle of worrying about saving FoW for it.

I run 22 blue spells, I run Stifle, but I also run Duress.


It also doesnt accomplish much vs. Thresh.


I have to completely disagree with you their. The opponent will spend turns cantripping to get a FoW or StP in hand. Simply paying 1cc to reduce their card quality is amazing. Duress is sick in the "mirror." Usually, black based control wrecks blue based control. Attacking the hand is very vicious. The opponent will rarely FoW the Duress, and then get their FoW remove so that you can cast Jotun Grunt sucessfully. I board in the 4th Duress vs Threshold.


Of all those decks listed, I don't see any of them nor do I see any tier 1 decks. The only deck I can count on is Affinity and the rest is random, non aggro. While that might seem like a good place to run Duress, to help know what theyre playing, no one plays any combo worth worrying about. I still run Duress in the board but I've never needed it yet.
If I would make room for Duress it would be from Counterspell, I could never see taking out Stifle.
If it works for your strategy, then play it, those are just my reasons for not playing it.

Well obviously meta considerations come into mind when building a deck. My deck is trying to anticipate a metagame similar to the D4D, or basically what I should expect to see at GP Columbus.

As for playing Exalted Angel vs Goblins... I'm not convinced that the manabase can support a 3cc + 4cc investment. Wasteland and Rishadan Port can be nasty. Supporting the deck itself isn't too bad, supporting Engineered Plague can sometimes be an issue, but morphing an Exalted Angel seems unlikely. I'm sure that when it does flip, it's going to change the game state. I'm just not sure if the deck can produce an Exalted Angel reliably vs Goblins. It seems really like that's where you'd really want it. For me, Jitte has always been the decks heavy hitter/finisher. It costs 2cc + 2cc, or 4cc as opposed to the 7cc investment of Angel. You can run here but I find Serra Avenger to be much more reliable than Angel. However, you said you play alot of randomness so some minor details may be less important.

[Windux]

What also is REALLY important: Serra Avenger has Vigilance.
This fact saved me some games. You can attack with him + Jitte and can block at the same time and pump it.
It's allready not that easy to equip a creature, attack for counters AND equip another creature. So Avenger does the job very well.

Also, revealing Exalted with Confidant will hurt you againt goblins and maybe kill you.

[valor]

This is in response to everythign that was said, first regarding Duress.
Basically at this point it boils down to Counterspell vs. Duress, I think we agreed on the usefulness of Stifle.
Counterspell Pros:
Hard Counter for late Game
In a slower meta, a hard counter is necessary because a lot of random cards are played without "cheating" them in.
Significantly better topdeck than Duress after turn 2-3.
Pitches to FoW

Duress Pros:
"Hard" Counter vs. most decks, early game.
Plan out your strategy for the next few turns.
Synergy with Grunt/Mage (although counterspell has the same synergy with Grunt)
Significantly better to see in the opening hand than Counterspell.

Its basically meta considerations from there, although whatever you don't mainboard I would put in the SB.
The one thing I didn't mention about Duress is that I don't particularly like to play a Sorcery first turn, (except Serum Visions with a 1 land hand). I'd much rather leave the mana open to StP/Stifle/Brainstorm or whatever I need to first turn, which is when you optimally want Duress. It's also when Stifle is at its best. Im sure we can agree Stifling a Wasteland or a Fetch first turn is much more damaging than a resolved Duress. The exception to this is when i want to go turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Mage/Confidant/whatever, but generally I find that there are better things to cast than Duress turn 1. And after turn 1, Duress quickly depreciates in value until about turn 3 when its near useless imo.
Again this is coming from the point of view of a random meta with little to no netdecks, few wastelands, no Goblins, and about 1/4 of the field is Affinity.
On to Angel over Avenger, this is how I look at it. Avenger is an awesome turn 4 drop, works well because turn 4 is when i want to either be playing or equipping a Jitte most likely, which gives me 4 mana. The drawback doesn't really do too much as I would rarely find myself needing to drop on earlier. As was said, Vigilance is key. Angel on the other hand is tough to get out, but when resolved pretty much seals the win, especially with Jitte. Again I don't play vs. Goblins or LD so I dont have to worry too much about reliably getting the mana, and while it does tie me down it is imo worth it as it keeps my play tighter since I won't be overextending before I drop an Angel, and wins me games. Last time I kept on in the SB and brought it in against pretty much all the randomness I faced, and it did extremely well for me.
About flipping one to Bob, I havent run into it being an issue but it is a valid point.

Also regarding a SB strategy, this is what I have come up with for the Meta that I previously described.

2 Serenity
1 Disenchant (could be 1 more serenity but sometimes I want the targeted destruction)
2 Eng. Ex. (takes care of a lot of randomness)
1 Pithing Needle (cant get more atm)
3 Duress
4 Wasteland (I board out Serum Visions when I can tell this will wreck someones day game 2)
2 Disciple of the Vault (I see Affinity ALOT so I figured I'd jack one of their cards to help me out. Replaces Mom nicely vs. Affinity).

Another note, has anyone tested Spell Snare in the counterpsell slot? While more narrow is is another solid counter considering the number of cards at the mana cost in most decks, and solves the issue of leaving UU open, although like Duress gets continually worse as the game progresses imo/ Just a thought.

[Hanni]

Duress isn't just good on the 1st turn. It's best on turn 1 but it can still be a good play during the mid-game. It can be good later on in the game too, especially against Control or Combo, but I agree that it does depreciate in value after a while. Usually, cantrip helps to get rid of Duress mid-late when they are of little value. It's also nice that it does fill the graveyard better than Counterspell, since it doesn't require precise timing... but that point for it is pretty narrow.

All in all, if you'd rather run Counterspell over Duress, that's fine. I don't think it's going to make a huge difference in a random metagame, since they are both good spells.

In a large tournament, it can be nice to know what your opponent is playing as early as possible so that you can make better cantrip judgements (what to shuffle away or put to bottom, etc.) and other judgements, where I think Duress really shines, but that's just a minor tidbit.

I haven't tested Spell Snare but I don't like how narrow it is. I would probably sideboard Disrupt instead if I wanted to deal with B/r Sui, where I see Spell Snare being most useful.

[Tosh]

One quick note:
I've had tremendous success with Shikari+Greaves (Leonin Shikari + Lightning Greaves). It works better than mom in most cases as well as giving you guys haste which has proven more useful than you'd think not to mention the awesome synergy w/ Jitte. You may want to consider working this in... I played it over Mom, Avenger (I don't have any, and 2 white seems tough), and one Confidant (once you get one out, they're a dead draw pretty much).

[al the great]

I'm actually pretty excited to try out this deck now for next week's Legacy tourney. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Right now there the meta is burn and g/r beats.

One question I have is Jotun Grunt a must for this deck or are there better alternatives putting into account Confidants.

[Hanni]

Jotun Grunt is a cornerstone for the deck because it is a 2cc 4/4 fattie drop, and the deck needs the extra muscle. Not only that, it gives the deck control over an opponent's graveyard, removing anything from Cabal Therapy to Wasteland (vs Crucible lock) to Life from the Loam to Threshold to you name it. He's one of the major reasons this deck has such a favorable Threshold matchup.

However, you can replace him with Rotting Giant if you don't like Jotun Grunt.

[aznfoodgood]

Hello all, I was just working on a straight U/W fish list and I found the U/W/B list, sounds interesting, just a quick couple of questions, what happens when you confidant up a force? Do you just say “ouch my but hole?” in addition, as any one thought about Aether veil? I was testing it out, it relieves a lot of your mana to run stronger counters besides dais, which becomes really week as the game progresses. Have you guys considered condemn, if swords is not enough? Also it seams that azorius first-wing should at least find some spot in this deck, as it is a very strong 2/2 beat stick. Could mask of memory take the place of dark confidant? It seems that the damage you take will hurt many mach ups such as goblins and threshold when they swing in for the game.

Just a couple of thoughts, hear is my list if any one cares.

Creatures (16)
3 serra avenger
3 spike tail hatchling
4 meddling mage
4 Azorius first wing
2 serendip efreet

spells (26)
4 force of will
3 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
2 condemn
4 Aether Veil
2 stifle
4 brainstorm
3 Jitte

lands (18)
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
6 island
4 plains

The SB is obviously meta intensive

[al the great]

^

I dont see how Aether Vial fits into this deck.

[Shysh]

^

I dont see how Aether Vial fits into this deck.

Well, at the very least, you can put Avenger into play a turn earlier. :P

[aznfoodgood]

By running an increasing amount of 2 drop creatures, it allows you to hold back mana that can be used for hard counters like counterspell. Veil helps your mana base by making your creatures easier to cast. Also you can do mean tricks like veil in a hatchling and sack to counter. If you really have question about it, try it out, I was surprised to see how well it worked in combination with counters and or jitte

[aTn]

I'd like to know your thoughts on the UGW-******** match-up.

What plays by you/(your opponent) make you usually win/lose, pre/post -board?

The above question is, of course, an over-simplification; you and I know that there are a lot of factors that influence the outcome of a game (e.g. the builds you and your opponent play, play errors, luck, etc.). I'd like to know your opinion wether you choose to include these factors or not.

Thanks in advance for your answers :smile:

[valor]

I'd like to know your thoughts on the UGW-******** match-up.

What plays by you/(your opponent) make you usually win/lose, pre/post -board?

The above question is, of course, an over-simplification; you and I know that there are a lot of factors that influence the outcome of a game (e.g. the builds you and your opponent play, play errors, luck, etc.). I'd like to know your opinion wether you choose to include these factors or not.

Thanks in advance for your answers :smile:

In my experience this is a good matchup. Mom takes care of Goose, Jotun Grunt=Werebear in size but also makes their stuff smaller, and plus you have Jitte, and more CA with Confidant. You're running similar strategies but your deck is able to exploit their weakness (reliance on the graveyard) better than they explot yours (manabase, although they have similar mana issues).

[Windux]

Against UGW you need a Medling Mage on Mystic Enforer and it is safe...

btw I had a mirror today: MIRROR SUXX!

Its just "Draw Meddling Mage, drop it on the stuff, that you don't have in your hand and would suck for you now!"

On game there was 4 meddling MAges online:
Jitte (he)
StoP (Me)
Ghastly Demise (me)
FoW (Me)

[Tosh]

page 3 is broken atm so i can't read Windux's post... EDIT: there, fixed

But I took the deck to my local tournament once again last friday and again did semi-well... I played burn first round which was surprisingly more dificult than I thought it would be; however, he did play MD pyrostatic (funny enough he had 2 out game 1 and he was at 4 and i was at 2... it was his 3 remaining fireblasts against my 2 remaining FoW's)

I completely slaughtered the rest of my matches for a 3-1 ending match record (7-2 game record).

[Meatwarz]

Won't an AEther Vial be very good in the deck? You get 2 counters and then you don't need to pay mana for nearly all your guys, while using mana for other spells. Not to mention creatures become uncounterable and it sometimes can help you to alive through mana problems.

[dre4m]

Won't an AEther Vial be very good in the deck? You get 2 counters and then you don't need to pay mana for nearly all your guys, while using mana for other spells. Not to mention creatures become uncounterable and it sometimes can help you to alive through mana problems.

While I am a massive supporter of Vial in Type 1 UWb Fish, I don't believe it is proactive enough to fit in this deck. The creatures are cheap enough that you can cast them with little fear, because Daze and FoW are your primary counter backup, which obviously require no untapped land. Vial is pretty slow for this deck's gameplan, and it doesn't enable Ninja/Mage/Voidmage Prodigy/Kataki tricks like it does in type one.

[Hanni]

I tested with Aether Vial for a while and it doesn't really fit in this deck. Combat tricks are nice and it does give a little manabase consistency, but it just doesn't fit the deck. I run only 16 creatures, meaning that 27 spells in the deck cannot be cast by Aether Vial. Mid-late game Vial topdecks are completely dead draws. I suppose that in a variant with a ton of creatures, Vial could be useful... but it was very subpar in my testing.

Many people tend to think Vial is good in Fish... but let's examine why it is good in Goblins. Goblins is a mana hungry deck and the additional creature it puts into play helps them to cast multiple threats in a turn. The casting cost of the Goblins themselves are pretty high in cost. Fish doesn't have expensive creatures, so it's never really an issue to hardcast creatures. Fish has far less creature density than Goblins as well.

It can be nice to Vial in creatures to save for Counterspells early on... but the countermagic is free anyway (FoW and Daze). It can be nice to help put multiple threats into play early on... but your still spending your first turn playing Vial and then 2 upkeeps worth of counters to be able to Vial creatures into play. It doesn't really speed anything up early on... although the deck doesn't need increased speed anyway. The fact that all of the spells in the deck cost 1cc and 2cc makes the deck incredibly fast as it is.

Vial may be good in Vintage Fish, but Legacy is much different than Vintage.

Anyway, rather than try to make arguments for why I don't run it, just know that I tested it and I found it to be subpar. You can test it out for yourselves as well, and if you like it, go ahead and run it. However, I just don't think Vial is supposed to be in Fish. Goblins, yea. Fish, not so much.

[aznfoodgood]

Im about to unveil the number one way to destroy threshold with non other then meddling mage. As a 2 drop, mage is at worst Meddling mage is a grizzly bears but it also prevents spot removal from coming into play. Ideally you could cut STP and start running condemn as it is just as strong an answer. But what is the tech play? Slaping down a meddling mage and naming swords of course!! HOLY CRAP ARE THOSE DEAD CARDS IN YOUR HAND?!?! Yeah man, his mage is raping me…. While it does not seem like such a good play, if condemn is played, you should be able to have just as much spot removal and still take home victories.

Just a little idea, I was doing it in the mirror threshold =D but instead of condemn I was brining in joten grunt…. Pwnzor

[Di]

Im about to unveil the number one way to destroy threshold with non other then meddling mage. As a 2 drop, mage is at worst Meddling mage is a grizzly bears but it also prevents spot removal from coming into play. Ideally you could cut STP and start running condemn as it is just as strong an answer. But what is the tech play? Slaping down a meddling mage and naming swords of course!! HOLY CRAP ARE THOSE DEAD CARDS IN YOUR HAND?!?! Yeah man, his mage is raping me…. While it does not seem like such a good play, if condemn is played, you should be able to have just as much spot removal and still take home victories.

Just a little idea, I was doing it in the mirror threshold =D but instead of condemn I was brining in joten grunt…. Pwnzor

O RLY?

[Hanni]

Condemn is suboptimal and doesn't stop Nimble Mongooses... which is why I drop 2 StP postboard for 2 Perish. Personally, I think Perish is a much stronger card than Condemn against Threshold. I also bring in the 4th Duress, and sometimes I'll bring in E Explosives if I see Pithing Needles game 1.

So that gives me, for the Threshold matchup:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Perish
0-2 Engineered Explosives
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mother of Runes

Every single one of the cards mentioned above is amazing in the Threshold matchup, although Jitte and Mom (and E Explosives to an extent) can be wrecked by Pithing Needle.

Regardless, the Threshold matchup is a very favorable one.

[aznfoodgood]

Ok so we have some what covered the threshold matchup but I wanted to quickly ask one question, WHAT ABOUT GOBS? There are many decks that claim to beat them but I don’t think that this deck packs the punch… as it is the best ago deck in the format, it just seems there are to many dead cards cough cough Duress… yeah although there are some answers to gobs, jitte is not… as your average gobs player as tinkerer or tin street hooligan < SAY WHAT?!?! Or even korsian grip out of the sb as I believe that goblins will soon take on the color green rather then white to access some new cards

Just some quick thoughts before I go.

Cop red?
Wrath of god?
More spot removal? In what form? Condemn? Hydro blast?
Is joten grunt that effective? Seems like he gets chumped so much and then dies when you run out of cards…
Moat? It’s a far cry from being good even though it says, hahahaha you cant get me hahahaha…
Or even… should I say it? Tivadars crusade…. ROFL EAT WRATH BITCH


Just a couple ideas and things to think about
Please reply


Hahahaha I just remembered that the black version you guys are running can play endeared plague but seriously goblins can win with a plague on the board and with korsian grip… it will still be tough… just kidding, but seriously take into account the suggestions I have brought forth, perhaps there is a better way to beat the best agro deck in the format

And I leave you with a quote “there are two types of decks in legacy, those that beat goblins and those that think they can”

-food

[Lejay]

2 Perish
(...)
Regardless, the Threshold matchup is a very favorable one.
I don't understand why do you use sideboard cards for a very favorable match up.

[valor]

I don't understand why do you use sideboard cards for a very favorable match up.

While favorable its not guaranteed, and you will be seeing Threshold decks a lot. Part of the reason that it is favorable is because of proper sideboarding, although 1st game should be in your favor. It also lets you name StP with Mage more reliably, etc.
The main reason would be because your just going to see the deck so much, and its not THAT favorable.

[Hanni]

aznfoodgod, this deck isn't nearly as bad against Goblins as many people think. I believe it to be one of the hardest matchups for this deck but it's not an autoloss by any means.

Game 1 you really want to see a countermagic heavy hand (and/or StP). If you can keep their first few threats off the table and win the early game tempo advantage, it's usually not that hard to win. Of course, you want to fetch basics early to protect against Wasteland... and stopping the early Vial can win games. Turn 1 Stifle on their fetchland can create amazing tempo on the play, and I've won several game 1's against Goblins by starting off that way. Stifle really helps in this matchup, protecting guys against Fanatic and Incinerator or shutting off the opponent's draw/search Ringleader/Matron. Mother of Runes and Umezawa's Jitte are both amazing to see. Game 1 is about 40/60.

Game 2 is much better. You drop the 3 Duress (which I agree is underpowered against Goblins) and you gain 4 Engineered Plague and 3 Pithing Needle. Engineered Plague may not stop Goblins dead and win the game alone, but cutting off the opponent's removal via Fanatic (as well as permanent Wrath'ing all of their x/1 guys) and making Siege Gang Bang less amazing really helps. It turns the rest of the survivors into 1/1's (aside from Piledriver), allowing Fish's aggro to dominate the combat situations. Engineered Plague is a major crutch for Goblins and will generally give Fish a major advantage. The only concern then becomes keeping threats on the board, but that's not too hard after E Plague hits play. The problem with playing E Plague, though, is that it costs 2B. The Goblins players mana denial can make it difficult. That's where Pithing Needle (and Stifle to a lesser extent) come into play. Needle can shut off Ports and Wastelands. Needle can also cut off their Vials, making them far less explosive and sometimes causing them to lose far too much tempo to recover. It's also a permanent answer to both Fanatic and Incinerator or even Tinkerer. 3 Stifle, 3 Pithing Needle, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 3 Mother of Runes, and 4 Engineered Plague are all very strong cards in this matchup. I'd say that games 2 and 3 are about 60/40 if you've playtested the matchup extensively enough and know what your doing.

As far as your considerations go, CoP: Red pretty much sucks vs Goblins. It might stop a Piledriver from doing some big damage, but Goblins swings with more sources than I have mana to pay for. Wrath of God is completely counterproductive to my own strategy. I don't think more spot removal is necessary... I'd rather have mass sweeps (Tivadar's Crusade) if anything. Although I feel that Engineered Plague is far more powerful than Tivadar's Crusade vs Goblins... and the fact that it doesn't require a double source is helpful. Moat could be a solid idea, though 2WW will mean it probably won't come online till it's too late most of the time and I only have 2 fliers in the deck. It also seems pretty narrow against the rest of the (aggro) field, since the 3rd Jitte will almost always be a better play. Jotun Grunt isn't too bad vs Goblins, since it is a 4/4 body (which can sometimes be hard for Goblins to deal with), though he does cause me to play the beatdown, which can be a bad thing. I drop 1 Grunt for games 2 and 3, since in games 2 and 3 the Engineered Plagues allow me to play the control more effectively.

Lejay, I sideboard in Perish because it's not a bad sideboard card vs random green aggro decks that occasionally have a presence that can be hard to deal with, such as G/r Beats or 9 Land Stompy. It also makes games 2 and 3 vs Threshold very good, making for savage Meddling Mages (on StP). Threshold is an extremely popular deck at large events and it doesn't hurt to make already favorable matchups even better... I want to make sure that I beat Threshold every single time.

Valor, Threshold is THAT favorable. In my last 15 2/3 w/ SB test games vs Threshold, I haven't lost a single match. 2 of the 2/3's were vs UGr and the rest were vs UGw. It's possible to lose this matchup, especially depending on playskill of both players, but the only times I had problems with Threshold was at the D4D Day 2 where my misplay of forgetting Jotun Grunt's upkeep is what made it difficult.

Carry on.

[Parcher]

Regardless, the Threshold matchup is a very favorable one.

So that gives me, for the Threshold matchup:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Perish
0-2 Engineered Explosives
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mother of Runes

Every single one of the cards mentioned above is amazing in the Threshold matchup, although Jitte and Mom (and E Explosives to an extent) can be wrecked by Pithing Needle.


I keep hearing this from you over and over, and still am completely unconvinced. See, I have played this matchup many times, and here is what I have found:

1) All of Threshold's creatures are both larger, and more resiliant than any of Fish's.

2) Threshold runs both more countermagic, and quicker, more efficient ways to access it.

3) Fish runs one extremely slow answer to graveyard-based decks that is easily removed. Even if Grunt is resolved and not Plowed, the rest of Fish's clock is so slow that taking eight just to let him die, then filling the graveyard immediately after to achieve Threshold is easily accomplished. Conversely, if he is successfully cast later in the game, his ability will not come into play quickly enough to negatively affect Threshold's creatures, which will by then be either as large, or larger than he.

4) 7 of your listed cards for the Threshold matchup are stopped by Pithing Needle, which you have no way to remove.

5) Duress is an extremely poor card against Threshold without other discard. If the card can't be protected with Brainstorm, it can usually be cantripped right back. Or you nab a cantrip. Duress is superb at forcing through a win condition against control, but there are no game-ending cards in this deck.

6) Two Perish with the draw mechanisms in this deck gives about a 60% chance of drawing one. With Threshold's much faster clock, and greater countermagic suite, there is little chance of resolving one.

7) Threshold runs no dead cards. Stifle is dead against a competant Threshold player.

8) Dark Confidant will never in the course of a game compete with the card quality that Threshold's cantrip suite has. It is actually one of the cards I intentionally allow to resolve, as it is extremely easy to stymie the remainder of Fish's attacking creatures, and allow the Confidant to bring them within easy striking distance.

The matchup is two Tempo based decks vs. one another. Who can establish, and maintain pressure best usually wins. Since one of these decks has bigger, better, faster, more resiliant threats, with more ways to protect them, and more ways to continually draw them, I am quite certain it can make up for the minor advantages Fish has in hand and graveyard disruption.

[Citrus-God]

I keep hearing this from you over and over, and still am completely unconvinced. See, I have played this matchup many times, and here is what I have found:

1) All of Threshold's creatures are both larger, and more resiliant than any of Fish's.

2) Threshold runs both more countermagic, and quicker, more efficient ways to access it.

3) Fish runs one extremely slow answer to graveyard-based decks that is easily removed. Even if Grunt is resolved and not Plowed, the rest of Fish's clock is so slow that taking eight just to let him die, then filling the graveyard immediately after to achieve Threshold is easily accomplished. Conversely, if he is successfully cast later in the game, his ability will not come into play quickly enough to negatively affect Threshold's creatures, which will by then be either as large, or larger than he.

4) 7 of your listed cards for the Threshold matchup are stopped by Pithing Needle, which you have no way to remove.

5) Duress is an extremely poor card against Threshold without other discard. If the card can't be protected with Brainstorm, it can usually be cantripped right back. Or you nab a cantrip. Duress is superb at forcing through a win condition against control, but there are no game-ending cards in this deck.

6) Two Perish with the draw mechanisms in this deck gives about a 60% chance of drawing one. With Threshold's much faster clock, and greater countermagic suite, there is little chance of resolving one.

7) Threshold runs no dead cards. Stifle is dead against a competant Threshold player.

8) Dark Confidant will never in the course of a game compete with the card quality that Threshold's cantrip suite has. It is actually one of the cards I intentionally allow to resolve, as it is extremely easy to stymie the remainder of Fish's attacking creatures, and allow the Confidant to bring them within easy striking distance.

The matchup is two Tempo based decks vs. one another. Who can establish, and maintain pressure best usually wins. Since one of these decks has bigger, better, faster, more resiliant threats, with more ways to protect them, and more ways to continually draw them, I am quite certain it can make up for the minor advantages Fish has in hand and graveyard disruption.

Some time ago, ObfuscateFreely said that in the metagame clock, Threshold not only underlines the aggro-control, but against opposing aggro, it's also the midgame deck. What made this so strong was the fact that it can play two roles in the metagame.

Also, I had no idea how Obfusctae Freely lost... really.

[Hanni]

1) All of Threshold's creatures are both larger, and more resiliant than any of Fish's.

The only resiliant threat is Nimble Mongoose, which can either be named by Meddling Mage (usually I name either StP or Nimble Mongoose, though in certain situations I can also name Needle). He can be blocked by Jotun Grunt or Mother of Runes, Jitte outsizes him, and Avenger trades with him. Werebear and Enforcer are both an StP away if not countered. They also rely on having a state of Threshold, which Jotun Grunt removes. Also note that my creatures double over as utility while Thresh's creatures are just big post-Threshold.


) Fish runs one extremely slow answer to graveyard-based decks that is easily removed. Even if Grunt is resolved and not Plowed, the rest of Fish's clock is so slow that taking eight just to let him die, then filling the graveyard immediately after to achieve Threshold is easily accomplished. Conversely, if he is successfully cast later in the game, his ability will not come into play quickly enough to negatively affect Threshold's creatures, which will by then be either as large, or larger than he.


Jotun Grunt is a house in this matchup.


4) 7 of your listed cards for the Threshold matchup are stopped by Pithing Needle, which you have no way to remove.

If Countermagic or Duress doesn't get rid of them first, I have 2 Engineered Explosives in the board that will also remove Nimble Mongooses with it.


5) Duress is an extremely poor card against Threshold without other discard. If the card can't be protected with Brainstorm, it can usually be cantripped right back. Or you nab a cantrip. Duress is superb at forcing through a win condition against control, but there are no game-ending cards in this deck.


Duress is a house against Threshold. Threshold runs no card advantage, aside from Predict, which means that while its card quality will be good, it's card advantage won't be. Duress lowers their hand count. Duress makes my Meddling Mage namings typically better. Duress might not have much to grab when the opponent has a hand full of cantrips but it does help pull out the business spells like FoW and StP. I don't see Threshold as having multiple cantrips in hand during every possible turn in the game. It makes putting my threats into player easier, since it pulls out Countermagic beforehand, and it helps keep them their so that StP and Pithing Needle don't stop them.


6) Two Perish with the draw mechanisms in this deck gives about a 60% chance of drawing one. With Threshold's much faster clock, and greater countermagic suite, there is little chance of resolving one

I'm not relying on drawing Perish to win. It's already a favorable matchup. Perish just puts it over the top. It makes my Meddling Mages on StP savage, and it can also be complimented by Engineered Explosives.


7) Threshold runs no dead cards. Stifle is dead against a competant Threshold player.

Well, I can Stifle a fetchland if I think it's going to help me. Otherwise, it's not really dead in my deck since it stops Grunt's upkeep if he'd otherwise die the next turn. Within my deck itself, Stifle is useful... so I don't see how it's a dead card. It also gets boarded out (1-2) for games 2 and 3 anyway.


8) Dark Confidant will never in the course of a game compete with the card quality that Threshold's cantrip suite has. It is actually one of the cards I intentionally allow to resolve, as it is extremely easy to stymie the remainder of Fish's attacking creatures, and allow the Confidant to bring them within easy striking distance.


Dark Confidant is a house against Threshold. On average, I'm taking like 1.1 life per turn from Confidant (when I'm not manipulating the top of my library). Card advantage (especially since I also have cantrip for card quality) gives me more threats and answers than Threshold can deal with. Dark Confidant, aside from Jotun Grunt, is the most powerful card in my deck vs Threshold.


The matchup is two Tempo based decks vs. one another. Who can establish, and maintain pressure best usually wins. Since one of these decks has bigger, better, faster, more resiliant threats, with more ways to protect them, and more ways to continually draw them, I am quite certain it can make up for the minor advantages Fish has in hand and graveyard disruption.

I agree to an extent. They both use tempo elements. However, there is alot more going on than just a battle of tempo. Card advantage and board control are also very important. I wouldn't necessarily say Threshold's creatures are bigger, although generally they are, and I wouldn't say they are faster, since they usually have less threat Density and don't get much creatures into play early game. I will concede that they are bigger post Threshold, and that size in the sense of an aggro clock makes them kill me faster if unchecked. As for resiliance, I think that Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage on StP is pretty resilient on my part, so I'd say it's about even. As for more ways to protect them, I strongly disagree. The opponent has possibly 1 more Daze and around 2 Counterspells (maybe 3) that I don't have. I have 4 Duress (post board) and 3 Mother of Runes (and Meddling Mage on StP), so I think I have way more ways to protect my guys. I also disagree when you say that Fish has less ways to continually draw it's answes/threats, since it still runs 8 cantrip and Dark Confidant is nuts.

All I can really say is, I'll PM you on AIM when I get the time and we can playtest this matchup as much as you'd like. I've played against Threshold numerous times and I can say with great certainty that my deck has a very favorable matchup for Threshold, hands down.


Also, I had no idea how Obfusctae Freely lost... really.

Well, you can read my tournament report or ask him, although I'm not sure how detailed my report is. Basically, I saw and resolved Dark Confidant in one of the games and I saw and resolved Jotun Grunt in another.

[Citrus-God]

The only resiliant threat is Nimble Mongoose, which can either be named by Meddling Mage (usually I name either StP or Nimble Mongoose, though in certain situations I can also name Needle). He can be blocked by Jotun Grunt or Mother of Runes, Jitte outsizes him, and Avenger trades with him. Werebear and Enforcer are both an StP away if not countered. They also rely on having a state of Threshold, which Jotun Grunt removes. Also note that my creatures double over as utility while Thresh's creatures are just big post-Threshold.

I wont argue here, but if they're smart, they will board in more men aganst you. Also, they have Engineered Explosives too.



Jotun Grunt is a house in this matchup.

So is Swords to Plowshares and Countermagic.



If Countermagic or Duress doesn't get rid of them first, I have 2 Engineered Explosives in the board that will also remove Nimble Mongooses with it.




Duress is a house against Threshold. Threshold runs no card advantage, aside from Predict, which means that while its card quality will be good, it's card advantage won't be. Duress lowers their hand count. Duress makes my Meddling Mage namings typically better. Duress might not have much to grab when the opponent has a hand full of cantrips but it does help pull out the business spells like FoW and StP. I don't see Threshold as having multiple cantrips in hand during every possible turn in the game. It makes putting my threats into player easier, since it pulls out Countermagic beforehand, and it helps keep them their so that StP and Pithing Needle don't stop them.

What? They dont need Card Advantage, they just need card quality. It's hardly a problem that they ever draw dead.




I'm not relying on drawing Perish to win. It's already a favorable matchup. Perish just puts it over the top. It makes my Meddling Mages on StP savage, and it can also be complimented by Engineered Explosives.

Threshold does the same. Meddling Mage seems to be overrated at the moment.




Well, I can Stifle a fetchland if I think it's going to help me. Otherwise, it's not really dead in my deck since it stops Grunt's upkeep if he'd otherwise die the next turn. Within my deck itself, Stifle is useful... so I don't see how it's a dead card. It also gets boarded out (1-2) for games 2 and 3 anyway.

Stifling fetchlands are that efficient? I bet Threshold players would do the same.I'm sure their Stifles can hit yur EEs as well.




Dark Confidant is a house against Threshold. On average, I'm taking like 1.1 life per turn from Confidant (when I'm not manipulating the top of my library). Card advantage (especially since I also have cantrip for card quality) gives me more threats and answers than Threshold can deal with. Dark Confidant, aside from Jotun Grunt, is the most powerful card in my deck vs Threshold.

What if you dont draw it? Threshold has a stronger Cantrip base than you do. They'll find their answers and threats much more quickly.




I agree to an extent. They both use tempo elements. However, there is alot more going on than just a battle of tempo. Card advantage and board control are also very important. I wouldn't necessarily say Threshold's creatures are bigger, although generally they are, and I wouldn't say they are faster, since they usually have less threat Density and don't get much creatures into play early game. I will concede that they are bigger post Threshold, and that size in the sense of an aggro clock makes them kill me faster if unchecked. As for resiliance, I think that Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage on StP is pretty resilient on my part, so I'd say it's about even. As for more ways to protect them, I strongly disagree. The opponent has possibly 1 more Daze and around 2 Counterspells (maybe 3) that I don't have. I have 4 Duress (post board) and 3 Mother of Runes (and Meddling Mage on StP), so I think I have way more ways to protect my guys. I also disagree when you say that Fish has less ways to continually draw it's answes/threats, since it still runs 8 cantrip and Dark Confidant is nuts.

Based on my playtesting... I would say it's 50/50. It's exactly like the mirror's match-ups, but they have to be played differently.


All I can really say is, I'll PM you on AIM when I get the time and we can playtest this matchup as much as you'd like. I've played against Threshold numerous times and I can say with great certainty that my deck has a very favorable matchup for Threshold, hands down.

Damn... I have my AIM. IM me, I dont trust other people with their playskill. I would much rather play the pioneer of this deck.



Well, you can read my tournament report or ask him, although I'm not sure how detailed my report is. Basically, I saw and resolved Dark Confidant in one of the games and I saw and resolved Jotun Grunt in another.

Damn... I wish I knew his sided for games 2 and 3.

[Parcher]

Sigh.....

Y'know, Hanni's being mature enough not to take this discussion as a personal attack, so I guess I can let this snipe at my skill by someone who hasn't the first clue of what they speak slide.

I don't think this needs to be drawn out any longer, as it may just be a disagreement based on point of view. No one is claiming that Threshold is even favored against Fish, only that the opposite is equally false. It's strange that for a deck with such a small presence in the meta that Hanni's matchup statistics have been eerily accurate. Perhaps it is simply the myriad variants of both decks being played that give such a broad amount of results. Perhaps the Hatfield version is worse than other's against Fish.

With the high degree of success of many different versions of Threshold, and the same possible flexibility of diversity in Fish's builds, it may simply be who drew what, who played first, or who has a more applicable sideboard. This is why I refuse to allow that either deck can definitively claim a favorable matchup against the other.

[Citrus-God]

Sigh.....

Y'know, Hanni's being mature enough not to take this discussion as a personal attack, so I guess I can let this snipe at my skill by someone who hasn't the first clue of what they speak slide.

I don't think this needs to be drawn out any longer, as it may just be a disagreement based on point of view. No one is claiming that Threshold is even favored against Fish, only that the opposite is equally false. It's strange that for a deck with such a small presence in the meta that Hanni's matchup statistics have been eerily accurate. Perhaps it is simply the myriad variants of both decks being played that give such a broad amount of results. Perhaps the Hatfield version is worse than other's against Fish.

With the high degree of success of many different versions of Threshold, and the same possible flexibility of diversity in Fish's builds, it may simply be who drew what, who played first, or who has a more applicable sideboard. This is why I refuse to allow that either deck can definitively claim a favorable matchup against the other.

Not saying this deck is terrible, but I would like further proof on this deck's match-up against Threshold. I have tested this match-up extensively, and I would like tok point out that Thresh doesnt get slaughtered like crazy, but more of a 50/50 match-up. Also from my testing, I have concluded that they both have somewhat different functions. Hanni Fish is stronger against the field and is not reliant with the graveyard, but in return it posts weaker match-ups against Goblins Post-Board. Threshold is the same, but versus Aggro, Threshold tends to do much better, but has to prepare for graveyard hate game 2.

Hatfield Thresh is doing as well against this deck due to the lack of Mental Note. In fact, this would be the reason why I would run Mental Note again. I learned that if you inflict a ton of damage from your opponent, it will force him to either play Bob or keep in in their hand, as this is one of the biggest sacrifices to make within the course of the game. Also, Mage is by far the most dangerous creature in that deck, as well as Bob. Make sure they dont resolve... ever. I know this because I tested two different variants against this deck.

[al the great]

Just looking at Aether Vial in the list for this deck looked sub par.

[Pimpoyo!!]

Hello to everybody!! I would like to comment some impression that had taken with this deck(my own version of uwb fish):

--Instants--
4 fow
3 daze
2 counterspell
4 branstorm
4 stp
3 stifer

--sorcerys--
4 pserum visions

-- leg. artifacts --
2 jitte

-- beast --
4 meddeling
4 dak confidant
3 jotun
3 serendib
3 isamaru

--lands--
1 island
1 plain
1 karakas(T: white or T:return target legend criature to owner's hand)
4 flooded
2 polluted
4 tundras
3 underground
1 scrubland

This deck is similar to of hanni, but with light differences. Out duress, needle and mom, and IN 3isamarus and one serendib.
The basic problem is that loses lives with many facility...fow-cnfidant..:s and one serendib or two with one or two cnfidants...
For this motive I have decided to realize (or not...)the following changes:
-1 serendib, -1 isamaru, -1 counter and +2 avenger and +1 jitte.

Karakas help me becouse I can return my isamarus to my hand, or other legend that wold be dangerous to me.

About the matc against thershold...I hope that it's favorable for my!!
I tested against white wenne whit a incredibol results: 8-0 to me jejej

This deck might turn in tier1 some day?? I wish it!!
Ah!! I'm from barcelona!

[Alex_Van_R]

I can see that you're from Barcelona. Nice Engrish.:wink:

[Pimpoyo!!]

I can see that you're from Barcelona. Nice Engrish.:wink:

Sorry...:frown:

[Kirika]

This is the version that I'm currently playing I was running serendibs up till very recently when I switched over to Serra Avenger's at first I thought the WW and can't be played till 4th turn and can't be pitched to FoW was all negatives but now that I actually tried them I actually like them.

I don't like duress maindeck cause I don't like fetching out a sea and having it wasted and having the set back unless i really need the colored i usually fetch for the island or plains if I can also don't like duress wiffs against goblins the most popular deck.

I've always run 61 cards since my keeper days of old when i wanted to fit in that extra silver bullet.

I had 2 counterspells but took one out to put maindeck needles going down to 2 stifle and I didn't like that couple times I needed a stifle to stifle grunt or confidant to not die or swing for the wing so i went back up to 3 stifle since its randomly good on grunts and confidant among other things so I was left with the 1 needle, might change that to a counterspell but I really hate wastelands from my keeper days so things look a little weird with those 2 one ofs.

I also run 3 jitte cause equipped jitte is win its just that good so why not maximize drawing with 3, you don't want 4 cause its legendary.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Island
1 [LND] Plains (5)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [A] Tundra
4 [R] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [7E] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [7E] Disenchant
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [6E] Serenity

Might actually try out maindeck duresses again but what to cut.

[Hanni]

As far as the 3rd Jitte goes, I board a 3rd one and bring it in vs aggro matchups but if your going to run 61 cards, the 3rd Jitte is the obvious 61st card.

I like maindeck Duress for what it does for the deck. If you fear Wasteland, don't try to play turn 1 Duress. You still need the black source to cast Dark Confidant though, so keep that in mind. Against Goblins, they come out for Engineered Plagues anyways. I decided that it wasn't worth it to try and make game 1 vs Goblins any better because I would sacrifice too much to other matchups and I still wouldn't make it favorable. It's about 40/60 pre-board and 60/40 post-board and I don't mind that.

As far as Serendib vs Avenger go, they both have their pros and cons. I run Avenger because she owns.

As for the random 1 Pithing Needle, I'd rather run an extra Stifle maindeck, or in your case, another Counterspell. Needle can be dead in some matchups but Stifle has inherent synergy within the deck when it's not useful, so it's never really dead. Needle also doesn't pitch to FoW. Pithing Needle is a very strong card though, which is why I sideboard 3 of them.

[Pimpoyo!!]

As far as Serendib vs Avenger go, they both have their pros and cons. I run Avenger because she owns.


Which are the pros and the cons??
Serendib is a 3/4. The difference of resistance in one does that lightnings, the mongeese don't affect him. Serendib can be pickef with fow...but the point of life that we lose, added to the points of life of the confidant make ideal the incursion of the third jitte.

Avenger is 3/3 fling wiht vigilance. Can't be picket with fow, cost WW and can't be played till 4th turn.

Slightly more?

[Hanni]

Serendib Efreet
Pros: 4 toughness, pitchable to FoW, single blue in the casting cost.
Cons: 1 damage per upkeep, 3 mana casting cost.

Serra Avenger
Pros: Vigilance, 2 mana casting cost.
Cons: Double white in the casting cost, can't be played until turn 4.

Examining them further is necessary to understand their fundamental roles in the deck.

Serendib Efreet does 1 damage per upkeep, so more often than not he's going on the agressive... he doesn't sit back to block. The 1 damage per upkeep in itself isn't too bad, but Confidant kinda makes me not want any more lifeloss.

Serra Avenger cannot come down until turn 4 but Serendib cannot come down until turn 3 anyway. The turn that it can come into play is highly irrelevant in this deck... and you would agree if you'd play this deck at least a handful of times. The double white cost is the biggest drawback, although I can usually manage. Costing 2 mana instead of 3 can be a good thing sometimes. It doesn't pitch to FoW, but it can block Goblin Piledriver. It lacks 1 point of toughness, though most removal besides Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt will either kill both Serendib and Avenger, or neither, so I'm not too worried. Mother of Runes or countermagic can stop a Bolt if necessary. Vigilance is extremely impressive and the whole reason why I run Avenger.

[lukatron2]

if its soo sweet than why didn't you run it in the last d4d?

[Hanni]

Because Serra Aevenger wasn't legal for the D4D. It had been released a few days prior and wasn't legal until Oct 20th. The tournament was on the 7th and 8th. I decided to run Azorius Guildmage rather than Serendib Efreet and it did well for me both days. Azorius Guildmage is still a good creature in this deck, I just like the Avenger a bit more. If ever there were extra spots available, I'd definitely fit some Guildmages into those slots.

[Kirika]

Might try 2 counter and remove the maindeck needle but then I need to find board space for the 3rd needle. I like to have 3 needles against goblins and decks with wastelands.

I been liking serra avengers ever since I made the switch, there were a few cases where they got lightning bolted but for the most part they work out a little bit better then dibs since dibs damage adds up with confidant damage as well. especially if you don't get a jitte. Only thing was I had pimp arabian nights dibs.

How is 17 land working? I'm running 18 land 17 just seems like one too low.

[Windux]

17 Lands doing fine for me.
Also I board out 1 Land in the Mirror and against NQG, without having problems. Just try it, how it works out for you.

[Pimpoyo!!]

I think that a powerful creature like serendib is necessary, overcoat against aggro deck's(rg beats, fairie stompy...). It is true that the points of damage caused by the serendib, added to that of the confidant can be considerable, because of it, I believe that the incursion of two dibs would be more suitably.(like Fleury Laurent, starcitygames: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=19316

17 beast, with 4 meddeling, 4 cnfidant, 3 jotun, 2 serendib, 2 avenger and 2 mom it's the suitable quantity...
It's only an idea... that has not been proved.

[Al-ucard]

I can see that you're from Barcelona. Nice Engrish.:wink:

Yes, but I can say that his english is like his spanish XD

[C-Aleric]

G'day, all.

I've been playing this deck for a good long time now. Slightly tweaked for the meta in my area, but still, the same overall concept.

In regards to the Avenger vs. Serendib arguements. I'm going to have to go with Avenger. The first and foremost reason = Vigilent Jitte carrier. When this happens, the game might as well just start over. The thing with this deck, is that you have mother of runes. So, burn shouldn't be that large of an issue on your avenger. I mean, unless they've burnt every threat you've dropped. Mother is a house, and if Avenger gets a Jitte with an active mother, you effectively have a permanent 7/7. It's rather ridiculous.

I still can't find a reason to remove Ninja from the deck. Ninja of the deep hours just works well with the other creatures in this deck. You can swap with an avenger to almost gain the card. You can swap out confidant if you're getting low on life. You can swap out grunt to keep it alive, let your yard refill, and cast it again. I don't know if anyone has tested the deck with this in there, but it's uses are massive. It's also another card to pitch for Force early. Which in most cases, is a lot better to pitch than the other blue card in your hand (whether it be daze/stifle/mage).

Anyway. I haven't read all the pages of this thread, so I apologize if this has already been covered, but. It's a reasonable idea.

Though at the last tournament I played at, I found the deck that can just wreck this one. Affinity seemed to just plow over me. Too fast. And really, aside from getting a bomb in game two, that will answer their entire board, you just lose. Or so it seemed for me. I had good hands too. And then, I die, with absolutely nothing I can do.

I'm also finding it hard to believe that people think this deck has a hard game against goblins. In the last 4 tournaments I've played in, and in testing, I haven't lost a match to goblins in 12 tries now. 12 matches, I'm 12-0. You can basically tell them before the game starts that they'll win game one. And if they don't, there is no chance they can beat you.

+4 plague, +2 needle, +1 jitte, -3 serum vis, -3 duress, -1 ninja (in my case).

I don't see how if you keep any hand that has any threat, you can lose. I mean, it's just ridiuclous how badly they have to deal with plague against this deck. There are some decks that run plague that goblins can still plow through, however. This deck is not one of them. When I arrive at a tournament, I want to play goblins, rounds 1-x, simply because I do not see how this deck can lose to them. Especially if they don't know you're going to stifle their land drops, laughing that they lose a life, and pass their turn with no plays on no land.

And, for the record, 1st turn Duress, 2nd turn Meddling Mage, is the biggest slap in the face to any deck other than aggro I've ever seen. God they just get soooo pissed when they see that happen.

[lukatron2]

how does this deck seem to do against angel stompy? from the looks of it, it doesn't seem like the match-up is in fish's favor...what about farie stompy?..just wondering...ohh yea and I keep hearing about how this deck doesn't really have any problems with r/g beats? I play r/g beats and Ive never lost to a fish/landstill deck in my entire life...trol + rancor and or jitte = gg

[Pimpoyo!!]

The explosives are not very effective against r/g beats. The only thing that us can useful is perish(against 24-26 beats or more...uff :S)or the needles to aszeta and sofi.

I believe that this deck has many possibilities in legacy but his beats are too weak. Sincerely I think that rg beats is not a favorable match.

[Hanni]

I've found Affinity to be an easy matchup in my experience and I would consider it favorable. They empty their hand fast with few ways to refill and most of what they drop isn't extremely amazing on it's own. Ornithopter, for example, is crap on its own. As long as you keep Ravager, Atog, and Cranial Plating off the table, you won't have too many problems. That's not really too hard considering the deck has Meddling Mage, Countermagic, StP/Duress, Pithing Needles in the board, and Serenity's in the board. Myr Enforcer can sometimes be a problem but Grunt can trade with him. Mother of Runes is, more or less, worthless in this matchup and I usually board them out. Serenity is cruel and unusual punishment. I also board in the 3rd Jitte... I've wrecked Affinity everytime I've played it and got Jitte active. They sometimes get very explosive starts and win off of that but that doesn't usually happen. This matchup is at least 60/40 preboard and only gets better postboard. You say the Goblins matchup is easy but you think Affinity is hard... we have totally opposite assesments.

Angel Stompy is a very hard matchup for this deck. I'm not sure I'd necessarily say it's unfavorable, but it's not better than 50/50. Post board it gets a little better when bringing in the 3rd Jitte and possibly Serenity, Engineered Explosives, and/or Pithing Needle. It's still a difficult match though. I've beaten Angel Stompy before but I've also lost to it. At the D4D, I played both 3c Angel Stompy and Mono White Angel Stompy. I went 2-0 vs 3 AS and 2-1 vs Mono White AS. On MWS, I win some and I lose some.

I think Faerie Stompy is a tad easier. They are more explosive but they are also much less consistent. An early game StP can really wreck them sometimes and so can Daze. They have mana consistency issues and they tend to empty their hand very fast. The biggest problems this deck has against Faerie Stompy is the equipment and Chalice. Engineered Explosives and Serenity come in and usually do a good job at keeping them off the table, although that's not always the case. This matchup is probably around 50/50 as well, at least preboard, but I have found it easier than Angel Stompy by a little bit. Post board, the matchup obviously gets a little better, though I'm not sure if it's favorable or not. I haven't done a ton of testing vs Faerie Stompy... but then again, Faerie Stompy isn't a very popular deck.

As far as G/R Beats goes, I usually win this one way more often than I lose to it. 2/2's and 3/3's aren't bad but they tend to run out of gas easily. Duress is great here, since it draws out their burn/removal, and Mother of Runes makes this matchup much easier. Unless they can nail me really bad early on, I don't usually lose this matchup. Obviously their Jitte will be one of the main focuses for my countermagic, supposing I draw any. The 3rd Jitte comes in game 2 and makes it easier too... especially since I have a draw engine and cantrip to ensure that I see mine first/more often. Sometimes I board in Perish or Engineered Explosives, depending on their build. Either way, I've never had serious problems with this matchup. Maybe the UWb Fish players you played against either sucked with the deck or didn't have it tuned very well to handle aggro.

I don't really think my beats are that weak either. Avenger is a 3/3 and Grunt is a 4/4, while Meddling Mage and Dark Confidant are pretty good aggro when Mother of Runes is on the table. I may not run as much muscle as Threshold does but my beats are around the same size as those found in Angel Stompy (aside from Exalted) and G/R Beats.

Either way though, how popular are those decks? I really don't expect to see a whole lot of those matchups at a large tournament. I'd rather have worse randomness matchups than worse Tier 1 matchups anyway. I saw Angel Stompy a total of 2 times at the 2-day D4D (and the 3c AS is alot less aggressive), I saw 0 Faerie Stompy (I think there was only 1 Faerie Stompy deck at the whole thing), and 0 G/R beats (not sure how many G/R Beats were played, if any). This is what the metagame will typically look like at most big events, at least in the U.S.

[C-Aleric]

Alright. Maybe I was just unlucky as hell, to see turn one thopter + mantle, and turn two, I saw thoughtcast, and turn 3 brought down ravager and plating, then atog, on turn 4, and I was dead due to fling on turn 5. There were just too many threats fast for me to ever have a chance of dealing with them all. Oh well. As per usual, I dominated everyone else around.

Perhaps we just play the deck a little differently, to cater to the matchups at hand, as you said. I find goblins a joke with this deck, every time. Stifle is just too much against goblins. They empty their hand, you stifle ringleader, and then they have nothing left. And you can still be in a dominant place. Especially with a well placed mage on turn 3 or 4.

I also have had no trouble with the R/G beats I've faced with this deck. The thing is, is that jitte will never be a factor, since we maindeck them as well, so it's basically a 2 colorless "destroy target jitte" in our case, and aside from that, Avenger is a house. 3/3 vigilent flier will definitely cause some problems for r/g beats, Especially once a mother gets online. Then again, whoever gets the better hand, should win out. Fish's job, is to answer all its problems in the first 4-5 turns, then start pounding face and gaining card advantage. Once things get working, it's tough to shut it down.

[Kirika]

I find affinity to be highly draw dependent, sometimes they just get the nuts your dead draw and there really isn't much you can do about it unless you have just the right hand to deal with it. Other times though affinity is very beatable

I haven't seen angel stompy or faerie stompy at my local shop. I haven't been to a big tourney in awhile tho and online testing is highly random.

I do see alot of goblins though which I have a good mach up against.

2 counter seems good so far but only 2 needle in the board is meh. needle is so good against goblins. big question is how to fit in another needle in the board :(

current board
2 pithing needle (goblins mostly)
2 disenchant (enchantments/artifacts)
3 duress (combo)
2 engineered explosives (aggro)
4 engineered plague (goblins)
2 serenity (affinity)

[Hanni]

You can drop a Disenchant for a 3rd Needle. Many times, Pithing Needle to artifacts/enchantments like Engineered Plague is to Goblins... in that, it does the job and keeps on doing it rather than being just a 1 time effect like Tivadar's Crusade.

Of course Needle doesn't work against every artifact/enchantment, but 2 Serenity's in the board is enough for them already. I don't even run Disenchants in my sideboard.

[Kirika]

only problem about serenity is it blows up my jitte if I have one thats why I had disenchants. I primarily bring in Serenity against affinity in which case it wipes their board so I don't care if I had to blow up my Jitte. Considering trying 3 needle 4 duress in the board removing the 2 disenchant but they are nice to have and I usually board out 3 stifle for duress assuming I am on the draw against combo or control.

[C-Aleric]

I don't know if I'd remove Stifle from your Combo matchup. The problem with getting rid of something that slaps storm in the face, is that you're just allowing them to say, cast tendrils, or cast brainfreeze, and you can't do anything about the storm. You're much better off removing something else from the main, than your stifles. If you mage against High tide, and you're holding a stifle, they'll have to have one sickening hand to go off against you. Assuming they can deal with mage, and or deal with stifle, or both. Then you deserve to lose that game.

But, stifle should really not be taken out of your list, for any reason in Legacy. It just is too versitile in a meta full of Fetchlands, and storm cards.

[Hanni]

But, stifle should really not be taken out of your list, for any reason in Legacy. It just is too versitile in a meta full of Fetchlands, and storm cards.

And other cards that sac and trigger like Pernicious Deed, Wasteland... and other cards that trigger like Ringleader and Gamekeeper... or your own Grunts... and it goes on and on...

[C-Aleric]

Agreed. I've come to the conclusing that Stifle is probably the most under-rated blue card that Legacy has to offer. People who run a full suite of blue counter magic, and don't run Stifle, are a little crazy. It's the counter to the things you can't counter. Situations where stifle is game breaking are countless. You play a tundra and pass the turn against goblins, and they're scared to hell, that you're going to stifle one of the two fetches they have in their hand. If you hit one, and have a hand that's not terrible, you'll more than likely win. Same against High tide. If you can stifle an early fetch after brainstorm for them, they almost have to force if they only have seen 2-3 lands so far. Then you gain some of the all important card advantage against the deck that is designed to have card advantage against you. And if gives you turn 3, out of remand range. The card is absolutely incredible. I can't say enough good things about it.

I like how as soon as I saw EBA, it was like, hmmm. This could be better. Then build it, then find out Hanni has a list almost identical, and now, finally have some people to discuss how to make it as best as it can be.

Props to UWb Fish.

[Volt]

Agreed. I've come to the conclusing that Stifle is probably the most under-rated blue card that Legacy has to offer. People who run a full suite of blue counter magic, and don't run Stifle, are a little crazy. It's the counter to the things you can't counter. Situations where stifle is game breaking are countless. You play a tundra and pass the turn against goblins, and they're scared to hell, that you're going to stifle one of the two fetches they have in their hand. If you hit one, and have a hand that's not terrible, you'll more than likely win. Same against High tide. If you can stifle an early fetch after brainstorm for them, they almost have to force if they only have seen 2-3 lands so far. Then you gain some of the all important card advantage against the deck that is designed to have card advantage against you. And if gives you turn 3, out of remand range. The card is absolutely incredible. I can't say enough good things about it.

Agreed that Stifle is underrated, although it seems to be seeing a bit of a resurgence. Btw, I think some of the credit for that resurgence goes to Mav & Pinder, for their work on CounterSliver. Although CounterSliver hasn't really caught on yet, I think some of the ideas have cross-pollinated. But I digress. It's hard for me to imagine a Legacy metagame where Stifle is not good. It would have to be a metagame devoid of Goblins, Solidarity, Iggy Pop, Affinity (stifling modular is awesome!), fetch lands, and wastelands.

I'm already on record as saying this, but I'll repeat it... Overall, Stifle is superior to Daze. If I had to choose between the two in a fish-style deck, I would pick Stifle.

[Hanni]

I don't know, I like Daze alot. It gives me early game tempo advantages, which is why I like it. It's isn't necessarily always useless late game if you can manipulate it with cantrip or pitch it to Force of Will. It's free countermagic and I really like to be able to keep my creatures in play. It has other uses too, like stopping turn 1 Chalices and such. It gives the deck a 7 Force of Will effect for the early game but they also synergize with eachother since Daze pitches to FoW. It's a blue-based countermagic suite picked off from Threshold... but that's because it's free countermagic. That's one of the reasons of love this format actually...

Stifle is amazing. It provides reach in other areas. Being able to stop cycling, sacrificing, and triggered effects that seem to be in almost every deck is nice... but I really love the synergy that it has naturally with the deck by also being useful on Jotun Grunt upkeeps. Stifle makes Jotun Grunt a monster... he can agress sooner in the game and he can also last longer. Jotun Grunt has been a very good creature for me. Against aggro/control, it helps me outsize or match their threats (Mongoose, Werebear) but can also make them littler at the same time. I think Wizard's printed Jotun Grunt on purpose... but anyway, Stifle makes him much better. I don't like running dead cards and Stifle is almost always useful. It, much like Daze, provides tempo boosts for this deck. It's kinda like a Dark Ritual feeling or a High Tide feeling in speed just less extreme and more controllish. But with aggro.

Alot of people seem to not run Duress but Duress just does so much for this deck. It's one of the reasons I decided to splash black, aside from Confidant maindeck and Engineered Plagues sideboard. I run 3 maindeck 1 sideboard. It's really only dead against Goblins and it's not even so bad with the manipulation to toss it back. It comes out games 2 and 3 for Plagues, which go very nicely into that spot. My amount of black cards and sources are still in proportion. It strengthens every other matchup though and has so much innate synergy within the deck that it makes it flow better. It's still a tempo booster, just a different kind of tempo.

Tempo sometimes seems like a difficult topic to discuss but I personally just think it's a "time" advantage, which can mean a number of things. Time simply means total resource development, including card advantage, whether that be actual cards in hand or cards in play. Cards in the graveyard too sometimes, for decks that need it. Cards like Ancient Tomb create time advantage. Free countermagic creates time advantage. But so does Pernicious Deeds. If you play 3 permanents only to have them blown to hell by Deeds, the Deeds opponent gains time advantage... a significant one. It's not a tempo boost in the terms of quickly developing... rather, it's a tempo boost of "un"-developing your opponent's set-up. Aggro/control, in this case Fish, likes to undevelop it's opponent's setup while it set's up to gain lots of card advantage and win based on tempo elements. Tempo and control. Of course I don't run Pernicious Deeds in this deck but I was using it as an analogy to explain something.

Duress furthers the control aspect too... and almost everything in this deck adds to an element of control. It's something I focused on when I designed the deck. It still furthers tempo though. Being 1cc is really nice, it allows me to cast a Duress and a cantrip turn 2 if I can't play a Dark Confidant on turn two. I don't really like to casts threats that I can't backup, so Duress makes a nice cushion so I don't lose my Confidant to a Bolt or something. Losing Dark Confidant is a bad tempo loss and I like to be able to keep my guys around. It also nicely sets up a turn 3 Meddling Mage turn 4 Serra Avenger. It's really nice when I play a turn 1 Mother of Runes that sucessfully resolves, but that doesn't always happen. It dumps in the yard easily to fill grunt up, stops bombs that may drastically effect the game like Jitte or Parallax Wave or something, savage Mage targets and alot more synergy.

Another thing I was touching with Duress is that with Meddling Mage it creates serious card disadvantage, which undevelops my opponent's setup. It puts them in a very tough spot early game and countermagic can sometimes answer there recovery cards... and then end the game. It's still built on the same premise as the cantrip, just reverse. Cantrip is trying to make my hand better so that I can play better threats and develop better. Duress makes my opponent play worse threats and develop disfunctionally from their gameplan. Same basic idea, just in opposite directions. I like the split, it gives me much more reach. Card Advantage/Quality is another large aspect to the deck. I like to out-resource my opponent's. The blend of 8 cantrip 4 Dark Confidant just seems like the perfect fit to be honest... you only really need so much cantrip. Too much cantrip means that you are playing less business spells. In fact, if you don't know how to play the deck correctly, you can over-cantrip and lose large amounts of tempo. Playing Fish can be very tricky. I really think that more than 8 is unecessary and much better that those extra cantrip sources should be Duresses... they make your opponent's set up worse. And at cost. 1cc quality advantage cards are nice. Duress is card quality differential.

The turn 1 black source seems to be a big reason why people don't like Duress. If that's the problem, you can always play Duress turn 2 with another 1cc drop... you get to cast 2 spells that turn. It's another tempo boost. If you fear Wasteland, don't make an Undeground Sea your first fetch. Grab an Island or a Plains, that's why their in there. If your only good play in hand is Duress, mulligan. You don't need to lead with the black source. You still need it, for Dark Confidant, so it's not bad to grab it sometime anyway. Turn 2 or turn 3, whenever. I fetch for a Scrubland when I got a blue source out and I want to cast an Avenger soon. Otherwise, it's not bad to just grab an Undeground Sea to retain the blue sources. Grabbing a Tundra isn't bad either if you don't need to black source... Fetchlands are very versatile, I love them. I love the tempo boost than turn 1 Stifle a fetch can give when you draw into that opening. It requires a good hand to not be useless tempo though... not every time boost is going to be useful. Stifling a Wasteland can be critical though, depleting their land resources at the expense of my hand resources is nice protection against Wasteland. It's a huge tempo boost.

Fetch wisely, plan your Stifle's out correctly, or mulligan aggressively into blue sources to be able to cantrip your way out of land screw.

I'm kinda buzzed and I'm just rabbling on so I'm just gonna end this post on that...

... so what do you guys think?
Duress or no Duress?

[Phantom]

I think I can actually speak reasonably well about the deck, even though I've never played it. The deck I'm working on over at the E.r.a. thread has morphed into a list much like this one that trades in black for red.

Anyway, here's my thoughts on the two cards in question:

1) Daze vs. Stifle - I'm thinking about actually running a split. I like both of the cards immensly, and I find the mental advantage of playing them about as large as the actual advantage. A lot of this debate depends on play style too. The only thing that I would say is not to replace either of these cards with non-blue cards.

2) Duress - Tough call here. I vote against it in a tight one. Duress is a great card, but it does have some shortcomings. It is pretty poor against the most played and best deck in the format, is a terrible card if you have bad board position, and is usually a terrible topdeck. Now, the reason I'm not nuts about it here, at least mainboard, is because of matchups. I think duress is incredible against combo, very good against ag-con, ok against control, and pretty bad against good aggro decks.

Now, what matchups are good for UWb fish, and what matchups are problematic? According to the opening post, combo and Thresh are two of the decks best matchups while aggro like Goblins, FS, AS, and Affinity are problematic to some degree for the deck (the opening post makes no mention of control decks, but I would imagine since decks like Truffle Shuffle crush Thresh, they might do similar here). So why would you run Duress mainboard here? Note that this last question was one of the resons I decided to drop black and go red. I wanted to beat aggro. No, to crush aggro, so i figured I would build a deck like this that already handles combo and ag-con well, and mainboard a few cards that simply wreck aggro (I went with 4 pyroclasms and never looked back). This actually brings me to my last point:

3) Meddling mage - Another card that is great in the matchups UWb is already going to win, and merely ok to bad in the tossups. I've been running a 2/2 split between main and side over at E.r.a. and I've been liking it a lot. I feel this type of deck runs enough dig to hit a 2 of fairly often before Solidarity goes off, and if it doesn't, you're still running Fows, Dazes, Stifles, and Duress'. Even if they get through round one, you board in the rest of the mages, mulligan aggresivly, and breeze to a victory. I mean, you have more combo hate at your fingertips than even White Thresh, do you need it all mainboard at the cost of improving your aggro matchup?

[Kirika]

I think Duress maindeck really depends on your metagame your playing in. If your facing alot of Goblins and aggro duress isn't very good maindeck cause you wiff alot and you do not want to fetch an early sea against aggro with wastelands. If your playing control and combo alot then duress is pretty good maindeck. I play against alot of aggro at my local shop so duress maindeck is bad for me.

[Hanni]

Duress is a great card against opposing aggro decks... just not Goblins. The only deck where Duress isn't very good against is Goblins. It makes FS and AS better, it makes B/r Sui and B/w Deadguy better, it makes G/R Beats and Survival better, it makes Control matchups better, and I can go on and on. If you think it sucks vs random aggro, then you should really playtest those matchups with Duress first. Drawing out the opponent's removal and equipment is pretty amazing... not as quick with tempo as FoW or Daze, but it's more accurate than Daze and it doesn't create card disadvantage like FoW.

As for the Stifle and Daze thing, I've been running a 3/3 split of them for a while. Actually, I run a split with Duress too, so it's 3/3/3.

See, the reason this deck has such a good Threshold and Combo matchup is because of cards like Meddling Mage. I want to make sure I win 90% of the time against 2/3 of the top tier (the 90% is just a random number thrown out so don't flame for that). Besides, my deck is built entirely around these things... removing cards like Meddling Mage starts to unwind the synergy. Mother of Runes makes Confidant and Mage solid aggro, somewhat comparable to Silver Knight. Duress makes Meddling Mage huge card advantage for me... not only because when I draw Meddling Mage it's like drawing 2 cards (cause he's utility on a stick), but because my opponen't now has dead cards.

[Phantom]

See, I always found Duress to merely be ok against fast aggro like the Stompys. It's pretty nice in your opening grip when you're on the play, but every turn after that it gets significantly worse until they get into top deck mode and it is downright useless.


See, the reason this deck has such a good Threshold and Combo matchup is because of cards like Meddling Mage. I want to make sure I win 90% of the time against 2/3 of the top tier (the 90% is just a random number thrown out so don't flame for that).

See, I think this is where the difference in styles comes in. I would much rather go 75% against all tier one than 90/10, 90/10, 50/50. And if I were going to choose one tier one deck to have my best matchup against, it would certainly be Goblins.

[Hanni]

Goblins isn't really that bad of a matchup after sideboarding, some people think it's an autoloss but it's not. Engineered Plague is an extremely powerful card and so is Umezawa's Jitte. With Needle and Stifle, it makes the matchup much easier. I'd rather run Duress maindeck and Plague sideboard.

Duress can often be very good mid-game but I can cantrip it away if it's dead. I don't think having only 1 deck where Duress is bad is enough to exclude it. But I guess that's just me.

[C-Aleric]

I run the 3/3/3 split Hanni is refering to as well.

I can't bring myself to drop Duress from the MD just for the sake of it's uncanny synergy with Meddling Mage.

And even if you're on the play against Goblins, Duress isn't the worst turn one play of all time. If you manage to snag a vial, or a bolt/kinesis, you're in good shape, and now you know what sort of crap you're going to have to deal with over the next 3 turns. On the draw in game one, it becomes slightly less useful. Though against goblins, you have to have one nutty draw to beat goblins. You have to have a beat stick fast, and you need to draw an answer to them every turn, or you basically just get toasted.

Duress aside from the matchup where it's bad, is just incredible in almost every other matchup. Against stupid decks like IGGy Pop, turn 1 duress can just win the game. Against solidarity, if you can resolve a mage, post duress, you're laughing. Since it seems important to make a deck that beats the tier decks at the moment, I'd say this deck is probably most likely to show up as the most dominant of the non tier decks at the moment. I've never done badly in a tournament with this deck.

[Tosh]

Just to throw this out there, I have been running a list similar to this (this is how it is currently) and I have done quite well in my meta (which, I admit, is a little scrubbish).

CREATURES
4x Meddling Mage
3x Dark Confidant
4x Jotun Grunt
3x Serra Avenger
2x Mother of Runes (Testing but its not looking good)

COUNTERS
4x Daze
4x Force of Will

CANTRIP
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions

OTHER
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x AEther Vial (this has really grown on me, at first I wasn't a fan but after further testing it has done wonders for this deck)

LAND
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand

SIDEBOARD
4x Engineered Plague
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Pithing Needle (would play more if I had them)
3x Disenchant
3x Chalice of the Void (maybe suboptimal... I'm testing it ATM - works well with my vials)

[C-Aleric]

Looks like a pretty solid list. It's pretty much standard looking.

I'm curious what your meta is though, because there are a few staples this deck seems to enjoy a lot which you've seemed to leave out of your build.

I'm not convinced on the idea of running 4 J-Grunts in this deck either. I can see how if your meta is massively graveyard dependant, that J-Grunt is a 4 of, or could be. And AEther Vial has been a large topic of discussion for this deck before, and it didn't really seem to add to the deck as much as it appeared to take away. The problem with AEther Vial is that it's not such a hott card to get late into the game. The thing is that it only speeds up avenger by one turn, and I can see how it would be useful for matchups like solidarity, where they may be forced to go off in response to an activation. Even then you need one in your opening hand, and you only run three, so it's a bit of a gamble.

I just find that the more buisness spells you jam into this deck, the better. Mother of Runes is ridiculously good in a lot of matchups. The fact that she can protect from spot removal, or block a massive creature with no real drawback is incredible. And has been vital in this deck many times from what I've experienced.

4 Dark Confidants seems like another thing this deck should always be running. Card advantage is a massive tool in MTG, and if it can be taken advantage of, your opponent will always be on their heels. Especially when they see blue mana sources hit the table. They know they have to be careful, or their going to walk into a game breaking counterspell, and that'll be the end of the game.

Also, I see that you've left out Stifle from your deck list. Me, personally, would never leave out stifle. I'd rather see it as a 4-of than not in the deck at all. If your meta plays goblins, survival, and pernicious deed related deck, fetchlands, powder keg, EE, etc... Stifle is your best friend. It also has great synergy with J-Grunt, as it can keep him in play, when your opponent is banking on him dying.

4 Dazes and 4 Serum Visions, I don't think are completely necessary. You could maybe drop one card from these 8, and perhaps squeeze in the 4th D-Confidant. But, yes. It's a pretty standard build. The general skeleton is pretty much the same.

It would be nice to know what sort of things are in your meta though, so your card choices were a little more apparent, though they are all rather solid, considering at the end of the day, there still aren't bad cards in the deck. You also probably don't need to run 3x UG Sea's for the simple fact you aren't desparate for black mana. You only fun 3 black spells in your whole deck, and 7 post baord. I would perhaps cut a UG Sea for another Tundra, just because you aren't running Duress.

Anyway. Good to hear your doing well with this build :)

[Tosh]

So far (as far as I can remember) These are the decks that are in my meta (don't even ask me to remember how i've done against them tho):
Vial Gobs
The Rock
Discard
Friggorid
MeatHooks
Landstill (multiple variants)
Affinity
2-land Belcher
Truffle Shuffle
9-land Stompy
UGw Thresh
Zilla Stompy
UW Tog
WG Slide
Burn
Sligh
Enchantress
Life
UG Madness
and various precon-ish type decksAs you can see, my meta is varied WAY too much to dedicate many slots to a particular type of deck.


I'm not convinced on the idea of running 4 J-Grunts in this deck either. I can see how if your meta is massively graveyard dependant, that J-Grunt is a 4 of, or could be.Grunt is a house and 4/4 for 2 no matter the GY dependance is good and in most cases I have been able to support it myself.


The problem with AEther Vial is that it's not such a hott card to get late into the game. The thing is that it only speeds up avenger by one turn, and I can see how it would be useful for matchups like solidarity, where they may be forced to go off in response to an activation. Even then you need one in your opening hand, and you only run three, so it's a bit of a gamble.My reasoning for AEther Vial comes in three parts: 1) Helps when mana is a bit tight 2) I can actually play stuff when I get a lot of card advantage 3) Combat Tricks These have won me games that I wouldn't otherwise. When I have, say, 2 white mana opena nd I don't drop an Avenger the opponent tends to think that I don't have one and sends in an alpha strike in which one of theirs dies and I get to freely swing in with the Avenger (possibly others) along with a free Jitte hit.


I just find that the more buisness spells you jam into this deck, the better. Mother of Runes is ridiculously good in a lot of matchups. The fact that she can protect from spot removal, or block a massive creature with no real drawback is incredible. And has been vital in this deck many times from what I've experienced.The problem that I mostly have is not surviving an attack by a big creature (Grunt can do that) but more in the overwhelming number of creatures that most decks play.


4 Dark Confidants seems like another thing this deck should always be running. Card advantage is a massive tool in MTG, and if it can be taken advantage of, your opponent will always be on their heels. Especially when they see blue mana sources hit the table. They know they have to be careful, or their going to walk into a game breaking counterspell, and that'll be the end of the game.reasoning:
1 Confidant = Great
2 Confidants = Bad
This is mostly because the life loss due to the Confidants can get pretty high with not many cantrips.


Also, I see that you've left out Stifle from your deck list. Me, personally, would never leave out stifle. I'd rather see it as a 4-of than not in the deck at all. If your meta plays goblins, survival, and pernicious deed related deck, fetchlands, powder keg, EE, etc... Stifle is your best friend. It also has great synergy with J-Grunt, as it can keep him in play, when your opponent is banking on him dying.Ever since seeing it's capabilities in MeatHooks I have been contemplating putting them in here but I am a little hesitent because I am afraid the things that I would have to drop for them would unbalance the deck. Less creatures would be bad as the deck has few threats anyway. Dropping Daze would be a shame (dropping FoW is out of the question) because it has been so useful as a free soft counter which in many cases (even up to late-game) can be game breaking. Dropping cantrips is also our of the qestion because of the 3 Confidants which aren't supportable without 8 full cantrips.


It would be nice to know what sort of things are in your meta though, so your card choices were a little more apparent, though they are all rather solid, considering at the end of the day, there still aren't bad cards in the deck. You also probably don't need to run 3x UG Sea's for the simple fact you aren't desparate for black mana. You only fun 3 black spells in your whole deck, and 7 post baord. I would perhaps cut a UG Sea for another Tundra, just because you aren't running Duress.At one point in time I was using Hymn to Tourach to see if its card advantage through discard and Duress would improve some match-ups but all in all wasn't spectacular because I would often be torn between dropping an Avenger or Hymn-ing (this choice mainly happens when I'm deciding what to fetch and when Wastelands are present it is difficult to fetch a Swamp over an Island early game). I haven't been having too much trouble at this point in terms of land and therefore didn't have much of a reason to change it but it makes sense now that I think about it.

[Citrus-God]

So far (as far as I can remember) These are the decks that are in my meta (don't even ask me to remember how i've done against them tho):

Vial Gobs
The Rock
Discard
Friggorid
MeatHooks
Landstill (multiple variants)
Affinity
2-land Belcher
Truffle Shuffle
9-land Stompy
UGw Thresh
Zilla Stompy
UW Tog
WG Slide
Burn
Sligh
Enchantress
Life
UG Madness
and various precon-ish type decksAs you can see, my meta is varied WAY too much to dedicate many slots to a particular type of deck.

Let's see...

Burn, UB Tog, Landstill, WG Slide, Truffle Shuffle, The Rock, and Zilla Stompy are all fine decks to board Armageddon against.

Enchantress, and Affinity are good to board Serenity in.

The rest of the decks you can beat with ease, even without help from your SB.

[C-Aleric]

I can see why you would get angry seeing 2 Confidants down on the board. The thing is, generally they are killed. Immediately. Letting a confidant resolve in this deck is sickening. And there is no reason to play the second. When you're playing a control-type deck, sitting there with a card in your hand, and keeping a confident look on your face is all it takes to fake people out a lot of the time.

And how long can you keep multiple grunts around?
I mean, 2 cards, then 4 cards, then 6 cards, then 8 cards. If you play it on turn 4, you'll be extremely lucky to keep one around for the next 4 turns. I find that 3 is average most of the time. This said, having two of them just seems unmanagable to mount any type of long-lasting threat. Also, stifle works very well with stifling the cumulative upkeep. Surprises your opponents who are expecting to see him die.

And I suppose combat tricks are useful for Vial, I'm still not sold on it though. From my experience, if you're playing against a good player, and you have an untapped vial, they'll make the right play. If you're playing against some people who don't really analyze the situation, then you'll probably be okay sneaking avenger in front of a massive assult.

Also, if you're going to play Avenger with vial, and you're going to block something, you might as well play it, and equip the jitte before they attack anyway, so you get the two counters. Instead of waiting until their next turn and swinging for 3 with avenger, where it could have been 7.

As for Stifle, I doubt you will be disappointed with it. It's pretty much my favorite card in the whole deck. If you get turn 1 stifle on a fetchland, a lot of the time, you just win the game. Several decks can't play their first 3-4 turns on one land. And if they keep a two land hand, and you stifle the opening fetch. That's pretty much the game, if you can apply any pressure at all. Plus, they know you're holding brainstorm ( "know" ), so having an uptapped blue source for the brainstorm isn't a rare thing to see at all. So, generally they won't even think about your untapped land, and they'll just let you savagely murder their land. And then you ride their induced mana-screw to the victory. It's also funny when goblins is banking on that last card in their hand (Ringleader) to refill their hand so they never have to get into topdeck mode. Then, you throw stifle on the board, and laugh, because you have 4 cards in your hand, and a kitte on the table, and their hand is empty, because you once again abused the ridiculousness of Stifle in Legacy. Legacy's overall meta is just begging for this card.

"I stifle Charbelcher", "I stifle your Nev-Disk", "I stifle your modular effect".

It's just like throwing a monkey wrench into a engine, and getting it good and stuck inside. Such a kick in the teeth.

[Phantom]

I have to agree with C-Aleric here. Multiple Confidants are great. There's no need to drop all of them, and it just assured you that one will live, which is a crippling blow to the opponent.

Also, I agree that 3 seems like the max number of Grunts Fish can really support, unless you're playing against Thresh, in which case it would be nice to run 9.

I've actually been a detractor of Moms, but I love her in Fish. Play her, protect her with counters till summoning sickness wears off, then all your creatures are damn near unkillable.

I can't specifically comment on Stifle, since i haven't started running it yet, but it seems great in theory.

[Tosh]

Many good points in your post, Aleric, and the only thing I can really respond to is this...

And how long can you keep multiple grunts around?
I mean, 2 cards, then 4 cards, then 6 cards, then 8 cards. If you play it on turn 4, you'll be extremely lucky to keep one around for the next 4 turns. I find that 3 is average most of the time. This said, having two of them just seems unmanagable to mount any type of long-lasting threat. Also, stifle works very well with stifling the cumulative upkeep. Surprises your opponents who are expecting to see him die.
I really don't put 2 grunts down unless one will die but I can support the other. The main point of having 4 is so I have lay one, keep it for 2-3 turns then lay another so I can keep a grunt prepetually on the table.

[C-Aleric]

It's good that you can manage to support them, though I'm pretty surprised you can. I have a hard enough time managing to keep one of my three around for 3 turns. Generally after he leaves play, there might be 2-4 cards left in all graveyards. So, playing the next one just doesn't seem like a good option if I happen to have two. Which is why I never want to have two. Which is why I choose to run only 2 in the version that I play. I always want one. And I generally see a lot of my deck. I still can't let my 2/2/2 split of creatures go.

I run a 2/2/2 of Avengers/Grunt/Ninja of Deep.

The reason why I insist on Ninja, is because in a lot of situations, he just returns grunt to my hand, to keep it around, instead of just being another creature, then I get to keep grunt longer. And, with mother, and jitte, he is a drawing engine, as well as massive beater. Also, he gets around chalice for 2, which has caused me to fold before I put them into this deck. Now, a lot of the time I can wait to resolve one, and win the occasional game I shouldn't.

Ninja also works well with Bob late game. Because when you're getting low on life (5-7 range), some opponents will let Bob through, because they think he'll be detrimental to your life total, and then you can pull the quick switch with Ninja, and you're good to go. Again, card advantage in this deck seems to be one of its more important aspects, so the more of it I can jam in, I will. And Ninja is just something else to pitch to force earlier on, so you can keep you cantrips, and such. Or aren't pitching a daze to force, negating the glory of the tapout-daze which pisses of so many players on turns 2-4.

[Hanni]

Actually... Ninja of the Deep Hours does seem pretty good. It gives the deck extra bodies against Goblins, which can really be helpful for committing a threat to the table against the R/w version, and it acts as extra draw. The synergy it has with Grunt is nice, and he can have evasion from Mother of Runes.

I'm mainly looking at how it's going to help my Goblins matchup though. With my current deck, I really like how my matchups are against everything else. Duress is dead against Goblins but it really helps against everything else. Since Control isn't very big in the format right now, moving Duress to the sideboard to make the Goblins matchup may not be a bad idea. If NotDH helps my other matchups enough to justify moving Duress to the sideboard I'd do the swap. I'll test it when I get the chance to see how it works out.

This is what the list would look like:

UWb Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (18)
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
2 Serenity
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle

I dropped all 3 MD Duress for 2 NotDH and 1 Jitte. I think that would strengthen my Goblins matchup. Not sure how detrimental losing Duress will be though, but at least the replacement cards provide card advantage. I dropped 1 Perish in the sideboard for the 3rd Duress slot, since it was the weakest board option.

[Kirika]

Not to sure on the Ninja. I haven't tested Ninja yet but it just doesn't seem all that great. Especially with 17 lands chances are you aren't going to cast him for 4 very often. I was having issues casting Worship in Counterslivers with 18 land. That means you have to ninja the Ninja into play which means you have to attack with another creature and get through which is iffy rather have a creature you can just cast when you need a creature. Although the BoB interactions while low on life and Grunt interaction when graveyards are low on cards are kinda cute. Let me know how it does in testing. I'll get around to testing it but lately I been testing stuff for Tribal legacy and Extended.

The 3rd Jitte does help against Goblins since drawing Jitte and if you can actually equip and do damage without your creature being toasted is awesome against Goblins. I been running 3 Jitte for awhile now. Its one of the reasons I run 3 Disenchant maindeck in my version of R/W Vial Goblins for jittes and to blow up Vials in the mirror match as well as random stuff like worships and needles on my vial.

[Kirika]

oopsy silly double post

[C-Aleric]

Well, I've been running the Ninja for a solid 3 to 4 months now, and I have not been sad with it. Sure a lot of the time it's in your opening hand it's just pitched to FoW, but that's not so bad, because then you still have all your cantrip/counter left in your hand, which isn't so bad.

The interactions with BoB and Grunt are 'cute' indeed, or perhaps just awesome. And when you have mother of runes MD, it's not such a big deal to get through with one of your creatures, namely, Bob or Jotun.

Here's the list I've been running for a good long while now. I've been in contention for the finals of every tournament I've played this in. I didn't get into one due to conceeding to a friend because we share a card pool, and he was going to win something (due to a bad matchup for me, and a good one for him), but a Mana Drain wasn't too bad at the end of the day for a conceed.

----------
Land:

3x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Island

Creatures:

2x Jotun Grunt
2x Serra Avenger
2x Ninja of the Deep Hours
4x Dark Confidant
4x Meddling Mage
3x Mother of Runes

Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Daze
3x Serum Visions
3x Duress
4x Brainstorm
3x Stifle
2x Umezawa's Jitte

----------
Side Board:
4x Engineered Plague
2x Pithing Needle
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Seal of Cleansing
2x True Believer
4x Tormod's Crypt
----------

The sideboard is geared to my local meta, and is by no means an optimal one for large tournaments with a wide variety of meta. The only swaps I'd probably make are to jam in Serenity in there, or Kataki. Because with out them, my Affinity MA isn't so hott. But, with them, it shouldn't be a big deal.


This build has lead me to have some incredible matchups. The playtesting is against an Rw Gobs master, Who's won 2x Mana Drains and 1x Mox Jet in his last 3 tournaments he's played in, so we can assume he knows how to play the deck. Against him, and against the R'x' Goblin players I've faced at these tournaments, I believe I'm 12-0 in the last 12 matches I've played against them. This deck just hoses goblins like no ones business. My sideboard against them is:

-3 Serum Visions, -3 Duress, -1 Ninja, +4 Plagues, 2 Pithing Needle, +1 Jitte

This setup basically turns your deck into the most Goblin Bastardizing pile known. In the meta around my area, the other matchups don't even really require much Sideboarding.

Against Solidarity:

-4 Swords To Plowshares, +2 True Believer, +2 Tormods Crypt

The hard lock is sooo fun to pull off against them. Mage on Cunning wish, followed by Jotun Grunt, or True Believer. That's GG for them. Unless they maindeck the 'you draw a card' spell. Mother of runes also is very sweet for the, "I give my M-Mage pro blue in Response". The crypts are pretty clearly not that important, just to get rid of that pesky Flash of Insight. If Swords had Any use, I wouldn't bother with the crypts, but. Since swords are 100% useless, might as well put something in.

So I suppose I might as well consider the top 3 decks. Threshold, in it's many variety's, is generally just beaten by this deck. Especially post board. They need a graveyard, and I have 6 cards in games 2/3 that just do not allow it to build up, and I have the same counter as they do (+ stifle) to try to deal with it (except for the random thresh decks running some counter spells, which I still would rather see some serious stifle action in those slots). Sideboarding:

-1 Ninja, -3 Serum Visions, +4 Tormods Crypt

If it's a white variation running worship, sneaking in the Seals of Cleansing is good here. They're mainly there for the bastardly MUC matchup. Because Veldaken Shakles sucks very largely against Fish. As does Back to Basics. Which is why there is one of each basic land, instead of just a plains and an Island. I found that MUC requires me to get Bob, and have Duress as an option once B2B has hit the table. This matchup probably isn't very good, but it's long and drawn out. If you're lucky enough to kill shakes, and a stifle for P-Keg, and get avenger through their counter, you generally win :) Other wise, it's a little in their favor. Stupid counter spells. Ugh. Though, and early stifle of their fetches really screws them up. They can't afford to miss an early land drop, so it forces them to counter it. If it's their first land, then they need to force, if they can't, you've basically won, and if they do, and you can't daze/force it yourself, then you have card advantage. So it works out well.

Anyway. I wanted to get some more stuff in this thread. I'll go back to working now. Orrr, perhaps I won't.

[Hanni]

I don't agree with pulling Serum Visions out for games 2 and 3 of your matchups... especially against Goblins. You really need the awesomeness of dig power that Serum Visions provides to prevent early game land screw against Goblins and it also allows you to dig for those cards you just sideboarded in, allowing you to consistently find your hoser cards like Engineered Plague.

The -1 Underground Sea for +1 Swamp is very interesting and I think I might test that.

Against Solidarity, you should really be naming High Tide with your Meddling Mages and keeping them protected with your Moms and countermagic, etc. If they can't play High Tide, they can never combo off... they can never draw a nuts amount of cards in a given turn so it takes them longer to deal with Meddling Mage... it's just the card you should name. I used to name Brain Freeze but I've come to realize that naming High Tide is the correct play 95% of the time.

I also think Pithing Needle would be a greater asset to you than Crypt's postboard for Solidarity. Attacking their manabase is the greatest way to win the matchup... Stifle on a fetchland, Needle naming a fetchland (I realize you run the same fetches but their fetches are much more valuable to them than yours are to you), and Meddling Mage naming High Tide. They need lots of mana to combo off... if you don't let them build it, you will win. This deck has enough aggro that makes it easy to capitalize on the time you gain by attacking their manabase.

I'm not sure exactly how you went 12-0 against Goblins but I congratulate you on that. The matchup is nowhere near as bad as every seems to think but 12-0 seems much better than I've experienced.

In my build, I'm testing the deck without Duress maindeck at the moment. I figured that, if I could strengthen my Goblins matchup even more, I may do better at GP Columbus (I expect Goblins to be the most played deck there). Threshold and Solidarity aren't jeopardized too badly without Duress, since you already know what you want to name with Meddling Mage in most cases and the deck should still be favorable against both of them without it. Obviously, I bring in Duress from the sideboard vs those 2 games 2 and 3. My testing this way has been minimal so far, though if my Goblins matchup is even 5% better because of it for game 1, I think it's worth it.

I'm not really liking your sideboard but every meta is different and if it works for you it works.

[C-Aleric]

Yea, as I said. My Sideboard isn't very tuned to the overall meta as much as it's tuned to beat the decks locally here. This won't be the SB I run at Columbus, for sure.

As for siding out Serum Visions, it's just the only card that doesn't pose a serious threat to the decks I side it out against. You can't ditch daze against gobs. As much as it would be nice, it gets vial. It gets that pesky driver a lot as well. There just isn't a very high need to worry about taking dmg from seeing force with Bob against gobs. If you aren't in complete control by turn 3/4, then the hand kept was bad, or they had the nuts hand to deal with you (in games 2-3).

The thing with getting land screwed against goblins as well, is that it should never happen. If you fear wasteland, then you don't play spells, until you can cast them with U open for Stifle. Or, you needle Wasteland instead of Vial, knowing you're dropping the plague early. I mean, I've found it very easy to deal with them in the early game. Stifle, and C-magic should be lots to hold out until you can resolve plague. And if you can counter the disenchant, then you're good to go. Plague + Jitte is basically game over. And there is no reason running 4 plagues and 3 jittes in game two/three, with 2 needles, 3 stifles, that they should be able to gain advantage on you in any way. Also. Fetching Basics if you have Plague in your hand is the way to go. That's another reason the Swamp is there. So you always have black to cast it on turns 3/4.

Against solidarity, I haven't really needed to sideboard that impressively. And I don't always think High Tide is the card to name. If you have Grunt in your hand in game one, I'll call Wish on turn 2 every time. Because if you have any counter, you just win on turn 3. They can't kill you. Ever. Unless they manage to counter both your spells, or bounce your mage (which they can't, because you named wish). They brainfreeze you for your deck. The next turn starts. You put cards onto your library from grunt during your upkeep. You draw w/e card it is you want, because you can stack your deck.

In games 2-3, the believer just makes it nasty. They'll probably SB in one of their bounce spells for you, namely Vapor, or perhaps Truth, so it's good to resolve a mother incase they go after your lock pieces. I agree with the Pithing needles as well. That's probably a smarter choice. Again, I don't think it really matters that much though. Needle needs to be out on turn 1 for it to be very effective on fetchlands, and I only SB two of them. If I get crypt on turn 4, it's still useful if I can get it into play. Flash of Insight has beaten me too many times for me not to have a way to deal with it. It finds the last piece to the Solidarity combo more than enough for me to justify putting crypts to deal with that one card.

[Nightmare]

Against solidarity, I haven't really needed to sideboard that impressively. And I don't always think High Tide is the card to name. If you have Grunt in your hand in game one, I'll call Wish on turn 2 every time. Because if you have any counter, you just win on turn 3. They can't kill you. Ever. Unless they manage to counter both your spells, or bounce your mage (which they can't, because you named wish). They brainfreeze you for your deck. The next turn starts. You put cards onto your library from grunt during your upkeep. You draw w/e card it is you want, because you can stack your deck.As a White Gro and Solidarity player, I can assure you this is incorrect. The BEST case Scenario is as follows:

~ You play first, Turn 1 fetch, cantrip.
Cards in hand - 6
Cards in GY - 2
~ Your opponent Draws, plays a fetch, says go.
Cards in hand - 7
Cards in Yard - 0
~ You draw for turn, Fetch, play Mage on CWish
Cards in hand - 5
Cards in Yard - 3
~ Your opponent Fetches EOT, and cantrips, you Daze.
They Draw for turn, play a fetch, say go.
Cards in hand - 6
Cards in Yard - 2
~ You draw for turn, drop a new fetchland, fetch, drop Grunt.
Cards in hand - 4
Cards in Yard - 5
Your opponent Forces.
You Force back.
Swing. Opponent's life total is at 16.

His Hand - 4
His Yard - 3 to 4, he has a fetch in play.
Your Hand - 2 (one is a land)
Your Yard - 6

This assumes that your opponent fetches, you Daze a cantrip, have 3 fetchlands in hand, plus Mage and Grunt turns 2 and 3, and that the Solidarity player has Force, you have Force, both have blue cards to back up Force, and that he doesn't have Remand for the Grunt or Mage.

...That's a pretty long list of assumptions. If any of those variables change, you won't have enough cards in the yards to pay for the Grunt in order to kill your opponent before he can wait out the Grunt dying.

[C-Aleric]

I apologize for poorly wording that statement. It's not "you win" as much as it's, "You can't go off until grunt dies, and if he can stay in play for 3 upkeeps, you take 20 dmg in total from attacking".

2 from mage turn 3
then 6, 6, 6.

So, it's still a pretty damn good play. I think in that matchup, keeping him around for 3 turns shouldn't be that bad. And perhaps if you can get it on turn 4, you're still alright. Assuming they don't bust off in responce. Basically, all I was trying to get across, was that naming High Tide isn't always the best option. That's all.

My apologies for the bluntness of my previous statement.

[Phya]

Hi, I'm the "Goblins master" that C-Aleric refers to in his posts, and I would just like to say that his playtesting data against me is a blatant falsification. In actuality I won the last match we played, so his record is in fact 12-1 not 12-0.

I'd like to honestly say that Jitte + Engineered Plague, while an extremely annoying thing to stare down is absolutely inconsequential next to first turn Stifle. Losing either my first turn land drop or wasteland (equates to the same thing) is almost always too huge a tempo disadvantage for me to get back in the game.

Maybe it's just his experience playing against Goblins that makes the match up so bad but I can't see how Goblins could ever have a winning record against Fish.

[socia02]

I'm just wondering...Does everyone think the Black splash is neccessary? I mean confidant can be replaced by standstill and duress can be replaces by more counter/beats/ removal. Just wanted to know how this U/W/B is superior to U/W.

[Hanni]

Dark Confidant is the entire reason that black is splashed. Standstill is generally a terrible card to run in this deck since there are no Factory's, Vials, and their are no Isamaru's or Lions. Dark Confidant is extremely strong in here, in fact, I believe it is the strongest card in the deck. Without Confidant, I'd rather run UWr. Confidant is a house... aggro/control is a deck that desperately wants to gain card advantage and Confidant delivers... and he's a 2cc 2/1 on top of that. I can't really put into words what he does for the deck... it's better to just play the deck and see how strong he is.

Aside from a more vulnerable manabase, UWb is stronger than UW because of the draw that Dark Confidant provides and the Engineered Plague vs Goblins rather than Tivadar's. Engineered Plague is such a strong Goblins hoser, it not only clears the table of the x/1's but it keeps them clear. It also turns the 2/2's into 1/1's so that my Meddling Mages and such outsize them. It's the mass removal-esque card that keeps on giving.

[jamest]

I thought your avatar was missing something and then I figured out what it was.

http://www.geocities.com/ptbnl123/hanni.bmp
Greatness, at any cost.

[Kirika]

This is my latest version

/ Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 [LND] Plains (5)
3 Polluted Delta
1 [b] Scrubland
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
3 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Vendalken Shackles
SB: 2 Serenity


I don't agree with boarding out too many Serum Visions either. I do board out 1 sometimes maybe even 2 but I don't feel comfortable cutting my cantrips too much.

I tend to board out my dazes if I am on the draw. it really just sucks if I'm going second the lose of the land drop hurts so much if your going second and you can't daze their first turn vial or lacky if you go second so its effectiveness is cut alot.

I actually always have trouble boarding against goblins if I'm on the play since I want my dazes then. Sometimes i just board them out anyway cause I can't figure out waht the hell to take out. maybe someone could help me with a boarding plan but i tend to take them out reguardless. I put in like 4 Plague and 2 Needle. I think it goes like -3 Daze -1 Jotun Grunt -2 Serum Visions +4 Plague +2 Needle. Against R/x. I keep my force and counterspell cause i feel if i can drop plague and defend it its a win. Sometimes I'll pull only 1 Serum and pull something else. I run 3 maindeck Jitte. I do wanna bring in Explosives as anti vial or maybe Shackles but i guesss but what to take out

Vendalken Shackles just own against aggro decks. there are many weenies so just take them = the win. I prefer this to the Perish that Hanni plays. Also no one plays them other then MUC so who's gonna board in needles or artifact destruct against Fish.

Soldarity I just name High Tide they need to find a wish to bounce my mage and well I have moms and counters and a clock so thats pretty much gg if i get a mage or two.

I haven't seen much MUC in my area or online. But I see where Aggro control has issues with pure control unless its 4 Gush Gat that just blew through Keeper anyway but got pwned by stax. Doesn't MUC have problems with aggro? Traditionally it did.

I'm actually considering adding the Swamp also but I run counterspells and shackles board so I need as much blue as I can get. Pretty much my local shop almost nobody plays combo so Shackles are the Bomb. I actually see almost no Soldarity in online testing as well. And its supposed to be one of the big three.

True believer sounds like a cool sideboard choice against Combo. another thing they need to bounce or kill.

I prefer Serenity to seal, sure it blows up your Jitte or what not but it also owns affinity.

Hanni said it perfectly Black = Dark Confidant to draw cards and E-Plague to pwn goblins.

Basic Swamp is a decent idea to improve the Goblins Match will have to try it and see how bad it messes with my counterspells and shackles.

[Hanni]

Pretty standard looking list Kirika, dropping MD Duresses for Counterspells and an extra Jitte.

I'm not sure if I really want to move Duress out of the maindeck though, I'm a bit against it because it is so strong against every other matchup. However, someone on themanadrain suggested Darkblast maindeck to help with Goblins in the Duress spots.

Then someone tossed out the name Lose Hope. I had no clue this card existed and my immediate reaction was WOW. It's like a Magma Jet in my colors, except it can also answer a 1st turn Lackey. It's not recurrable like Darkblast but the Scry mechanic is so busted. Serum Visions #5 and #6 sounds great, they are going to help me dig for those Plagues against Goblins and Grunts against Threshold, etc. I really like the idea.

Still though, if I sense Goblins having a huge presence, I can always drop 3 Duress for 2 Lose Hope and 1 Umezawa's Jitte.

Again, the deck does lose the recurrability and the meager -1/-1 does seem grossly underpowered. Still though, it answers 1st turn Lackey and can allow creatures like Meddling Mage to kill off Silver Knights and the like. I'm REALLY going to have to test this.

The sideboard would probably look something like:

2 Serenity
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle

With 2 Lose Hope and 3 Jitte MD.

The SB plan for Goblins games 2 and 3 would then become:

-3 Jotun Grunt
-3 Daze
-1 Serum Visions
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Pithing Needle

I know that I said I was strongly against removing Visions for sideboarding purposes but I couldn't think of anything else to remove and I still gain the additional 2 Scry effects from Lose Hope so I'm actually up 1 Scry effect maindeck to dig for my sideboard answers. I lose the cantrip ability but I am almost positive that Lose Hope will never be a dead card in the Goblins matchup. I pull out the Jotun Grunt's and Dazes games 2 and 3 because I no longer want to play the Beatdown early with tempo backup... I change the style of the deck by becoming the Control. 4 Engineered Plague are almost like 4 Wrath of God, with 6 sources of spot removal and Jitte as removal as well. Pithing Needle answers their Ports so I can effectively cast cards like Plague, while it also stops their Vials and occasionally their Incinerators.

I may actually drop an 1 StP to leave 1 Grunt in the MD since the deck has 4 Plagues, 2 Lose Hopes, (3) StP's, and 3 Umezawa's Jittes to try and answer their Goblins.

Not sure yet, the whole Lose Hope idea really needs tested. It will strengthen my Goblins matchup and I am very excited for that, though I'm not sure how badly the loss of MD Duress will effect my other matchups. Still though, against Threshold it gives me extra dig to find my cards like Perish and Jotun Grunt and against Solidarity, I should have no problems with them game 1 anyway... plus I have Duress in the board for games 2 and 3.

Oh, I'm not sure if I had mentioned this already, but I went with C-Aleric's manabase suggestion and opted to drop 1 Underground Sea for 1 basic Swamp.

-1 Underground Sea
+1 Swamp

As far as the suggest of Vedalken Shackles goes, I don't like it in here. It's basically like a SoFI. It's trumped by Needle (or artifact destruction) and it is extremely heavy on the curve, costing 3 to cast and 2 to activate. I normally won't play Jitte until I have 4 lands or nothing else (good) to play and with Shackles that gets bumped up to 5. My reasoning for that is to not lose tempo, so that you're not wasting a turn essentially doing nothing. If it works out well for you, I am not trying to discourage you using it. I just simply think that it's not what I want to run. The reason I run Perish is to secure my Threshold matchup even further and make for savage Meddling Mage namings (on StP), where Shackle's is going to really suck (they maindeck Needles, countermagic, Mongoose is untargetable, etc).

But anyways, I wonder what everyone elses thoughts are on Lose Hope? The recur of Darkblast is nice but I think I'm liking the Scry even more... I'm not totally sold that it's going to help the deck function better than MD Duress but it would definitely be stronger in the Goblins matchup.

[Phantom]

Very quickly because I'm getting tired:

Darkblast is much better in the actual Goblins matchup I think. As long as you can counter/stifle Ringleaders, you virtually cannot lose. Also, nice synergy with Grunt.

Lose Hope is a much more maindeckable option since it can even be useful against creatureless decks, but I'm not completely sure about it. I think it does have potential and would def warrant some testing.

[Citrus-God]

I'm quite against Duress being moved to the Sideboard. I mean, Duress is also like Peek, as it gives you enough information to play around everything in their hand.... unless your some Poker player able to piece together your opponent's hand.

[Mirrislegend]

@ Hanni: So have you been testing Lose Hope? I'm really curious to see the results. Any preliminary results?

[Hanni]

I've only playtested about 5 or 6 games with the Lose Hope's MD and I haven't really gotten to playtest it vs any actual Tier 1 or 2 decks.

In theory, it should prove much better in the Goblins matchup than Duress. It answers a first turn Lackey and then I get Scry 2 rather than them gaining 1 life. Against Threshold, it gives me additional dig to find my power cards (while making post Thresh Werebears die in combat to my Grunt's). Against Solidarity, I can still use it on my Jotun Grunt or something after combat so I can dig for Stifle or whatnot. The whole Scry 2 mechanic seems like it would keep it from being dead.

It can make Silver Knights blockable by Meddling Mages, it can make Rotting Giant's smaller than Serra Avengers, etc. It's not overpowered, -1/-1 for B isn't the greatest, but it's a blend of removal and Serum Visions... and everyone knows that I love 2-for-1 cards.

I'll try and get some actual results with the Lose Hope's in the deck when I can but it's definitely going to strengthen the Goblins matchup. If it doesn't weaken my Threshold or Solidarity matchups too much (I still think they will be favorable even without MD Duress), then I'm more than likely going to make the switch. I love Duress MD but Goblins is the most popular of the Tier 1 decks and is also the hardest of the Tier 1 for UWb Fish. 4 Confidant + 10 dig spells means I will have a much better chance of seeing 1 of my 3 Jittes MD than I would have with the 3 Duress 2 Jitte MD configuration I normally run. If I can consistently beat my Goblins matchups, I'll be very excited. As I said before, I've been toying with ideas to make the Goblins matchup better ever since the D4D... Stifle was a good start, Avenger was a step in the right direction, and now Lose Hope seems good too.

[outsideangel]

I've actually been running a couple copies of Lose Hope in my build of UGB Thresh for awhile now, for basically all the reasons you stated. Scry 2 is suprisingly potent. It's fantastic vs. a turn 1 Lackey because it's not only an answer, it also sets up your next couple of draws. It also has a neat little synergy with Brainstorm, essentially acting like a shuffle effect by letting you Scry away whatever you put back.

Like you mentioned, Hanni, it's nothing overpowered, or even extraordinarily good, but it's a solid card that serves multiple purposes, and is almost never useless, so it does seem like a good fit in Fish.

The question of Lose Hope vs. Duress is basically "How strong is my combo/control matchup? Can I afford to make it worse to somewhat improve my Goblins matchup? Will having a somewhat better Goblins matchup give me a better win percentage than a better combo/control matchup?"

I think it might end up being a pretty metagame-related call.

[Muradin]

What do you think is the Matchup against Life from the Loam deck like?
I am thinking about the Kobe side event winner, Terrageddon and Land ho.
What do you think?

[Eldariel]

What do you think is the Matchup against Life from the Loam deck like?
I am thinking about the Kobe side event winner, Terrageddon and Land ho.
What do you think?

They seem pretty good MUs overall, since Meddling Mage naming Life from the Loam is absolutely crippling to them, Jotun Grunt destroys their gameplan and they hate having their fundamental spells (Armageddon, Devastating Dreams, etc.) countered. Not to mention the setback of having their turn 1 fetch Stifled. Stifles help against Wastes too. But without Meddling Mage or Grunt, the Life-engine would probably overwhelm you, so dig for either one.

[Hanni]

I think it might end up being a pretty metagame-related call.

Right, and I build my decks with large event metagames in mind. I have a feeling that Goblins is going to make a very strong showing at GP Columbus. Otherwise, I could always run 3 Duress MD with 2 Lose Hope and 1 Jitte SB. Either way, Lose Hope IS going to make its way into the 75 cards of my deck.

I'm going to edit the original decklist to reflect these current changes because I've really liked Lose Hope in testing.

As far as Life from the Loam strategies goes, as long as I fetch out a couple basics to protect against Wasteland, I usually don't have too many problems. Duress/countermagic answers the big bombs like Devastating Dreams and Armageddon. One major benefit of UWb and being blue based is that all my colors are allied colors and fetching out basics fits right into the blue based Fetchlands. As mentioned, Jotun Grunt and Meddling Mage are awesome in this matchup, with enough draw/cantrip to find them.

[Bane of the Living]

Speaking of Duress, has Cabal Therapy been discussed at all? You have the creature base to support flashing it back, and it truely is better against gobs than duress. Playing both after sideboarding would be devestating against control/combo.

[Hanni]

It was considered before a very long time ago when I used to run it but there are reasons why I don't now. The deck only has 16 creatures which really doesn't support it well. It was synergy to sac a Confidant at low life totals, or Grunt's after they are all used up, but it still is quite lacking. Without Duress in addition, Cabal Therapy is extremely mediocre when cast from hand. It's decent against Goblins but I would much rather run Lose Hope. I'm not really convinced that the deck needs the excess discard vs combo and control.

It can be tested again but I don't think it will fit correctly. There just isn't enough room to run Duress AND Cabal Therapy maindeck and there simply isn't enough creatures to run Cabal Therapy effectively without Duress to compliment it.

[Citrus-God]

I have been testing this deck out recently, and it's been doing very well for me. To tell the truth, I dont like this deck much, but it wins. I really dont like that logic when it comes to building a deck, but it works I guess...


// IcBE Fish
// Lands 17
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Island


// Creatures 16-17
4 Meddling Mage
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Dark Confidant/3 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Jotun Grunt


// Spells 27
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte


// Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
3 Cabal Therapy


Janky isnt it? No. I have tested this deck for the past few days, and let me say it's been amazing in testing. I lessened my game against Goblins to make sure my match-ups against decks like Threshold, Control, and Combo dont have a chance. In testing with the original Hanni Fish, I always loss Game 1, no matter how hard I try. Dark Confidants were the first thing I got to see die. Stifles were good, but they were narrow against Threshold. I didnt like Serra Avenger much, as she doesnt come out until turn 4, and dies to things like Lightning Bolt. I felt like if I needed another good beater, it should win me the game right on the spot. A friend of mine who plays at my weekly tournament, Lenny was playing this deck with Phyrexian Nagators instead of Serra Avenger. I looked at how many games he won, and realized all of them involved Phyrexian Negator. I remembered this while I was playing Red Death (great deck btw), and realized how powerful he was.

Pros:
Synergized with Grunt
Synergizes with Mom
Under costed threat
Tramples
Good against Thresh
Good against Combo
Good against Aggro w/ Mom backed up

Cons:
Kills your own perms
Cant be killed by Ghastly Demise


Well.... is that a good reason? Well, for me, of course!


I needed more then Umezawa's Jitte, and I needed a Midgame. Shadowmage Infiltrators are somewhat evasive. I wanted to be aggressive, but Dark Confidant just wouldnt let me. Shadowmage Infiltrator was obviously dead sexy: it synergizes with Equipment, it draws you cards, and it makes a great blocker and attacker. I liked Confidant as well, and with the help of these two wizards, I knew that this is enough to fuel both Phyrexian Negator and Jotun Grunt, so I cut Moms from the deck (It was metagame dependent for me, as I wanted Mom in an aggro/aggro control meta, and Confidant in a Combo and Aggro Control meta). Sword of Fire and Ice is another piece of sexy tech from Lenny that made it's way into the deck. With Shadowmage Infiltrators (Italian tech btw), and Negator, it was able to give me full access though cycling the deck, as well as an endless supply of removal to keep this deck going.

I like having 4 Dazes and 3 Duresses as this deck is very aggressive. Any resolution of any bombs in this deck can easily mean GG.

Therapies get sided in against Control and Combo. It gives me information of what they sided in against me, as well as savage goodness with MM and Duress. The entire SB is just standard.

Props to Lenny for 2 Pieces of tech, as well as the italians for Finkel. I really want some opinions on this deck at the moment.

[Volt]

@Anti-American: Well, just eyeballing the list... It doesn't seem like 17 lands could possibly be enough. And Phyrexian Negator seems pretty iffy in any deck that doesn't run Dark Ritual. Shadowmage Infitrators are sexy, though.

[Citrus-God]

@Volt: Thanks. 17 Lands is enough, as I cheat on my land count early game with Cantrips, and midgame with Finkel and Bob. The Negators are good enough. When I played Red Death, they were usually the 2nd thing that comes out, as first thing always has to be disruption. I play Duress, then Meddling Mage, and with so much tempo advantage from there, I try and end the game quickly with Grunts and Negators.

[Solpugid]

I've recently been testing a UW fish build, very similar to this (minus, obviously, bob). I ran the two-of serra avenger and found (even with a two-color mana base) that the WW could be annoying to pay. And then all I'd have was a 3/3.

My question is, do you ever think that the hassle to get (and keep) WW is not worth the creature you get out of it. Is there an alternative to avenger that works similarly?

I'm asking because I love fish decks, but I don't like avenger. I've tried serendib efreet in its place, but the 3cc and additional damage is annoying. Maybe maindeck galina's knight?

[Windux]

Serra Avenger is awesome.
3/3 Flying is good, but damn! It has Vigilance.
It beats for 3 and blocks.

Even in UW, it should'nt be a problem to get WW.

I play 17 Lands in UWB and had just 1-2 times problem to support the Avenger and this problems was only against goblins, where I fetched Usea before for Plague.

[Tosh]

In my recent list, I've been running Hymn to Tourach and Serra Avenger and 17 land and I have no problem getting either. I do not think mana is a problem at all.

My lands are:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains

[mikekelley]

Hanni, I think you shot yourself in the foot by posting this here. Your build was pretty much perfect as it was, you got tenth at DFD. Now I see every buffoon on MWS playing this deck. 90% of the time I see an underground sea i know what the deck is before they make another move.

It's a great deck don't get me wrong but I hope it doesn't become too popular. Once you know what you are playing, it isn't too difficult to beat. Chalice at 1 from the SB wrecks it, turn one or two. Especially game 1 you are going to have some trouble with that card. Needle on Jitte is the suck for you. But anyway...

Good deck, but I hope it doesn't get too popular :-p

It is good when people don't know wtf just killed them.

[Hanni]

Hanni, I think you shot yourself in the foot by posting this here. Your build was pretty much perfect as it was, you got tenth at DFD. Now I see every buffoon on MWS playing this deck. 90% of the time I see an underground sea i know what the deck is before they make another move.

I just wanted to get the archtype out there... it's a strong deck and I wanted to be recognized for that.


It's a great deck don't get me wrong but I hope it doesn't become too popular. Once you know what you are playing, it isn't too difficult to beat. Chalice at 1 from the SB wrecks it, turn one or two. Especially game 1 you are going to have some trouble with that card. Needle on Jitte is the suck for you. But anyway...


Well see, the thing is, anyone playing Chalice is gonna drop Chalice for 1 anyways. In fact, Chalice for 2 is much worse than Chalice for 1 against this deck anyway. Needle isn't really a strong card against me either... the only targets for it (besides the potential Engineered Explosives from the board) is Jitte and Mother of Runes, both of which are support to my aggro base and not my aggro base itself. I run 3 of each rather than 4, so Needle isn't a bomb against me.

Anyway, onto actual content:

-1 Tundra
+1 Polluted Delta

The deck still retains the same amount of u/w sources but this way it gets an additional tutor for the lone Swamp and Island, extra thinning, extra grave filling for Grunt, extra shuffle effects for Brainstorm, and a stronger stability against Goblins. It opens the deck up more to Stifle but it strengthens the manabase against Goblins, which is a trade-off I'm willing to make.

So I got to thinking about my sideboard today and I think it's time to revamp. My testing gauntlet on MWS isn't the best, but I find myself hardly using most of my sideboard. Against the Top 3, the only cards that come out of the board are: 3x Duress (Solidarity, Threshold), 4x Engineered Plague (Goblins), 2x Pithing Needle (Goblins, possibly Solidarity), 1x Perish (Threshold), and 2x Engineered Explosives (Threshold).

What exactly is Serenity's place? It seems like it's only amazing against Stax and Affinity, both of which make up very small portions of the field. It was useful against decks like FS and AS, but remotely. Is the Affinity matchup that bad to where Serenity is really necessary? I really don't think it is, not at all. Every game I've played against Affinity minus a few I've won and Serenity always comes out as overkill. I think the extra Jitte is more than enough, personally. Serenity is only better than Disenchant against decks with multiple artifacts/enchantments... otherwise, it's simply slower. I was thinking of how strong Vindicate used to be against Angel Stompy. It not only gave me additional answers to Exalted Angel (which is a bomb if unanswered), but it also answers Parallax Wave (which is also a bomb if unanswered). Aside from that, it answers equipment too. 3cc is slow, yes, but the card is strong against them. Add to the fact that they are mana hungry and sometimes have mana issues (4 mana required for Angel, 2/2 for Jitte, 3/2 for SoFI, 4 for Wave) means blowing up a Tomb can also be a devastating tempo gain. Against Faerie Stompy, it's an answer to Chalice that can't be Needled or... Chaliced (set to 2). It also answers their equipment if necessary, provides additional answers to their big fliers, and can be devastating if you remove their only blue source.

-2 Serenity
+2 Vindicate

What role does Engineered Explosives serve? It's good against decks that produce alot of permanents in the 1cc range or untargetable threats, but it nukes my own guys at 2 and requires a large mana investment to be set and blown at 3. Useful against Zoo? I'd rather have Jitte. Useful against AS/FS? I'd rather have Vindicate/Jitte. It's solid against Threshold to remove Mongoose/Needle but Perish is just a stronger card, especially since EE can be Needle'd (or Stifle'd). Until I can find reasoning to back this card besides random versatility, it just doesn't seem to be pulling its weight in any matchups.

-2 Engineered Explosives

As far as Pithing Needle goes, I've only been boarding in 2 against Goblins because that's all I have room for. Stifle is stronger against Goblins, in my opinion. Pithing Needle answers Port, which is nice. For Wasteland, simply fetching basics works well enough with Stifle being a stronger answer than Needle IMO. It can shut down Incinerator/Fanatic, though I think Stifle works better. The main use, I think, is to shut down Vial... which I agree is strong. However, I just don't think more than 2 Needle's is necessary anymore now that the deck MD's 3 Stifle. There are other decks where 3 Needle is strong... Survival, Control decks (Scepter, manlands, Cursed Scroll, Maze of Ith, Decree of Justice, Eternal Dragon, etc). However, I think Winter Orb or Armageddon is also strong against those decks (or Vindicate in some cases). The control matchup is somewhat bad for this deck... it's not an autoloss, but it's not a strong matchup. I think Winter Orb seems extremely strong. The board gives Duress and Needle right now. An extra 2 Winter Orbs seems solid.

-1 Pithing Needle
+2 Winter Orb

With the final spot, and the lack of Engineered Explosives against Threshold, I'll add an extra Perish for now.

+1 Perish

This is just from a small brainstorm session I had and nothing has actually been tested yet. This is just my current train of thought for the sideboard right now. I was considering fitting a 4th Jitte into the sideboard since it's so strong against random aggro/Affinity, etc but I'm thinking that 4 is overkill. Adding 1 more Vindicate may also be good (for FS/AS and randomness), I'm not sure. I'm also not sure if I want to drop my Needle count down to 2. This is going to need a bit of testing; this will be a work in progress.

Revamped Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb

EDIT: Okay, after brainstorming for a little while after this post, I've had a few more ideas.

Perish just seems to narrow. It's good against Threshold but beyond that there isn't much... and Threshold is already favorable. 9 Land Stompy and Elves! just aren't enough to warrant it. It's only marginally useful against Zoo and RG(b)SA. I still want a little extra Threshold tech, but I think that can be done with more versatile cards.

The 4th Duress seems strong against combo, control, and Threshold. I like it against Thresh because it reduces the card quality that they spend alot of tempo to gain and allows me to control the board better by making sure my Grunts and Confidant's resolve, etc. Against combo, it's just 1 more card that makes sure I don't lose. Against control, it allows me to remove things like mass removal, which in fact makes a huge sway in card advantage (or hitting FoF is strong too).

1 lone Engineered Explosives gives me 1 more answer to Chalice at 1 or 2. 1 doesn't much a huge difference but it still gives me the ability to nuke Needle/Mongoose when set to 1, and having only 1 means that Needle on EE isn't a strong play for my opponent. It's an extra card to come in with Vindicate against AS/FS and can be randomly good against Zoo or 9 Land Stompy or something. Either way, it's broader than Perish.

-2 Perish
+1 Duress
+1 Engineered Explosives

[noobslayer]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [B] Island (3)
1 [B] Plains (1)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
2 [AN] Serendib Efreet
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [B] Disenchant
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

This is the list I would pack. I don't like Serra Avenger, and Efreet can pitch to Force of Will. I may cut one land, and find something instead of Mother of Runes, but I don't know what for yet.

[AnwarA101]

Anyway, onto actual content:

-1 Tundra
+1 Polluted Delta

The deck still retains the same amount of u/w sources but this way it gets an additional tutor for the lone Swamp and Island, extra thinning, extra grave filling for Grunt, extra shuffle effects for Brainstorm, and a stronger stability against Goblins. It opens the deck up more to Stifle but it strengthens the manabase against Goblins, which is a trade-off I'm willing to make.


After having tested this deck, my suggestion would be to cut the basic Swamp. You run at most 6 maindeck cards that are black. You should be able to fetch for an Underground Sea or even the Scrubland when you actually need to play a black spell. Having a Swamp or Plains in your opening hand is like not having a land because it doesn't allow you to cast the majority of your spells and this is especially true for black since it is the 3rd color. Plains is probably acceptable as most your threats require white as part of the casting cost, but Swamp certainly isn't. The main deck that you are concerned about that plays wasteland is Goblins and casting Dark Confidant is usually not very strong against them. It seems pointless to play Swamp for a matchup where you won't even need to cast 4 of the 6 cards that are black in the main deck instead of having a blue source that can help you cast cantrips so that you can have access to black should you actually need it.

[Hanni]

The entire reason I play the basic Swamp is for Goblins... Engineered Plague is not only a very strong card, it can also very difficult to cast through Port/Wasteland. The ability to fetch Island, Plains, Swamp to cast Engineered Plague is very strong. I haven't really had mana concerns with the lone Swamp in starting hands and the Island/Plains are very strong since I can cast almost everything in my deck with 1 Island 1 Plains.

[AnwarA101]

The entire reason I play the basic Swamp is for Goblins... Engineered Plague is not only a very strong card, it can also very difficult to cast through Port/Wasteland. The ability to fetch Island, Plains, Swamp to cast Engineered Plague is very strong. I haven't really had mana concerns with the lone Swamp in starting hands and the Island/Plains are very strong since I can cast almost everything in my deck with 1 Island 1 Plains.

But basic swamp is awful game 1 against Goblins because you only have 6 black cards and you should be able to play those off non-basics if you even want to play them. As for playing Plague in game 2, shouldn't you be able to play Island and Plains and then simply sit on a fetch and play Plague. Swamp only gets around Wasteland as Port can still hit any of your lands anyway. If you are worried about Wasteland against Goblins why not Sideboard Stifle as it can be used to hit Matrons, Ringleaders, Gempalms, and Wastelands instead of playing a basic Swamp which is sub-optimal in every other matchup (and I would argue even against Goblins).

[nightshade81]

Armageddon > Winter Orb at least try it. I know you (Hanni) are not a fan of Armageddon but please don't run a sub optimal card in it's place.

[Ewokslayer]

On the topic of Lose Hope.
Don't you find it dead against creatureless decks or when you are getting beaten down my Mongooses?
Would a more versatile card that can still handle Lackey be better?
I was originally thinking of Funeral Charm but then they printed Piracy Charm which is generally better in that it is in your main color (i.e. you can still go first turn basic island to avoid wasteland), it can be pitched to force of will as well. Though it can be REB so you would have to play around that game 2 and 3 against goblins if needed.

I agree with Anwar that the basic Swamp is probably unnecessary. Fetching a swamp doesn't stop port from beating you and you can always fetch the turn you are going to drop plague to get around wasteland. Drawing the swamp early is horrible for the deck as you have quite a lot of other color commitments.

[Tosh]

I would like to submit my decklist for critisism:
// Lands
1 [7E] Swamp (4)
2 [MI] Plains (1)
3 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [b] Underground Sea
1 [MI] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [AP] Spectral Lynx

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [FNM] Duress
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

[janky.player]

No offense, but 2 Bob? never run less than 4. And no Daze?
I also run 3 extirpate main, and it seems to work (warchief?).
Also Top seems to mana intensive, and avenger to not 4-in-the-butt, and not pitchable to force enough ( run serendib efreet)
Lastly I'd run a couple of artifact lands to fetch w/trinket mage

Btw here's my decklist for examination:

The Mana-18
4 Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Island

The Dudes-16
4 Meddling Mge
4 Bob
3 Mom
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serendib efreet

The Non-Dudes-26
4 FoW
4 Stp
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 serum Visions
3 Stifle
3 Extirpate
2 Jitte

SB
4 Plague
4 Duress
2 Needle (of the Pithing variety)
2 Vindicate
2 Massacre*
1 Jitte

*the good builds of goblins run 3 plateau

[Anarky87]

I was under the impression that Avenger pretty much hauled ass, so why are people cutting them? For Efreet? It doesn't have vigilance, so it can't pull double duty on attack and defense and it doesn't pwn with Jitte like Avenger does. And what does it matter if it pitches to FoW? Hello..:

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Meddling Mage
3 Daze
3 Stifle

Why are those 22 cards not enough? Avenger is just too nuts not to play. And 2 Confidant? Why? He's called sick card advantage, pumping you gas after gas to keep you in the game. He's a 4 or none kind of card in this deck.

[Tosh]

No offense, but 2 Bob? never run less than 4. And no Daze?
I also run 3 extirpate main, and it seems to work (warchief?).
Also Top seems to mana intensive, and avenger to not 4-in-the-butt, and not pitchable to force enough ( run serendib efreet)
Lastly I'd run a couple of artifact lands to fetch w/trinket mage


Well, I've found that Bob isn't really game-breaking and more than 1 in play is not a good play. Alos, Daze is not run because the good players play around it and the land returning slows the deck around a lot. If you can play the daze, then it isn't useful anymore.

I plan on making extirpates in (this list is pre-PC).

Top is awesome card quality as well as setting up for Bob.
Avenger is a house and is an easier drop than efreet.

The trinket mage doesn't need to fetch for artifact lands because three mana should always be enough.

[Citrus-God]

You can run Counterbalances in the SB if you run Tops. Playing them Maindeck is a good option, but also kinda janky. Exlcuding Daze, IMO, its a big mistake. It protects Confidants, and running 2 Confidants seem kind of odd. Confidant wins most games for you because of overhwhelming card quality and card quantity. Confidant, Mom, and Mage are the reasons why a deck like this beats Thresh and Combo so well.

Also, what do you guys think of my list btw?

// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Plains
3 Island


// Creatures 17
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Jotun Grunt


// Spells 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent (synergizes with Meddling Mage)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Sword of Fire and Ice


// Sideboard 15
4 Engieered Plague
3 Stifle
3 Disenchant
3 Wasteland
2 Engineered Explosives/Pithing Needle


Negators just go along with SoFI and Mom really well in general. SoFI is good because I dont have to sacrifice a Bob or Pikula outside of the presence of Mom to make SoFI good, since it already pumps my guy. SoFI draws and removes, and makes your guy good in the red zone.

[spider900]

Also, what do you guys think of my list btw?

// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Plains
3 Island


// Creatures 17
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Jotun Grunt


// Spells 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent (synergizes with Meddling Mage)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Sword of Fire and Ice


// Sideboard 15
4 Engieered Plague
3 Stifle
3 Disenchant
3 Wasteland
2 Engineered Explosives/Pithing Needle


Negators just go along with SoFI and Mom really well in general. SoFI is good because I dont have to sacrifice a Bob or Pikula outside of the presence of Mom to make SoFI good, since it already pumps my guy. SoFI draws and removes, and makes your guy good in the red zone.

The Problem with the Negator is, that some decks still run some burn. You play only a few lands and not much other permanents. When a burn resolves on the Negator, you can hardly win the game because you'll stay without any permanents. Additionally, the Legacy meta is too full with creatures that can chump-block the Negator, so it's not worth it to play him. When a creature blocks him, you'll get the same result as with burn: No permanents or only a few.
Apart from that, I think your list is okay.

[CleverPetriDish]

This is all true, Spider, but the deck has a lot of ways to protect it against this, not the least of which is the Sword of Fire and Ice. Plus, just remove it for some hate in game two. In g1 it is a helluva beater versus some of the hardest matchups so it is hard not to like it.

Perhaps if Gobs became popular with Bolts again I would consider taking it out.

[noobslayer]

If you live in fear of a certain cards all the time, you'll never get to play the game. Some decks run anarchy, maybe we should remove the all the white cards. Do you see what I'm saying? I don't want to sound like an ass. Just look at Red Death. It freaking loves the overwhelming advantage or "Big Negs." We have more protection than they do. They have 8 discard spells to protect it, and 4 rituals to power it out. We have discard, meddling magi, and a boat load of counter magic. Granted we don't power it out turns 1 and 2, but it shouldn't be dismissed because burn gives you a bad day.

[janky.player]

I know avenger is a better creture but with my 4-fetch base I can't support double white. And no I'm not cutting factory it is a lategame dude and it trade w/piledriver.

[insertnamehere]

I recently played a UW fish deck with Stonecloaker (Planer Chaos) and it has 2 very useful abilities to it:
#1 When it comes into play Bounce a creature you control.You can easily bounce your Grunt instead of losing him to the lack of cards in the yards.
#2 When it comes into play remove a card from target players graveyard.I played the stonedcloaker bouncing it twice removing my opponents 2 Life From The Loams, causing him to basically lose the key part of his deck.

I think it could be a card to definetly try in that deck. it could potentially kill Survival by removing their Genesis, It can kill the 43 land decks by removiing their Life from the Loam.

[Tosh]

To make room for Extirpate I have changed my previous list in the following way:
-1 Trinket Mage, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, -1 Umezawa's Jitte SB, -1 Pithing Needle SB
+2 Extirpate, +1 Extirpate SB, +1 Tormod's Crypt SB


I recently played a UW fish deck with Stonecloaker (Planer Chaos)
I was also thinking about this card a bit. It can save a dying creature, remove a target card in the graveyard (instant speed) along with being another 3-power flying creature. I was thinking -2 Spectral Lynx +2 Stonecloaker.

I'd like to explain some of my choices in my decklist posted above:

Counterbalance: Counterbalance is an all-star card. I tried counterbalance instead of counterspell and loved it. The trick is to not play around the counterbalance but just play with it. It isn't necessary to counter everything with it, it just randomly hoses spells not to mention I was running Sensei's Divining Top in the deck way before Counterbalance which is obvious synergy.
Sensei's Divining Top: Sensei's Divining Top was originally played to help with Dark Confidant but ended up helping with more than Confidant. Top can filter many useless cards (based upon the match-up) away and is never a waste to put down. Top also makes mid- to late-game fetches good because they shuffle away the useless junk.
Trinket Mage (and no artifact lands): Trinket Mage was added after I started playing Big Mana U/W (in Extended) and realized how good Trinket Mage was by enabling MD Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives.
Dark Confidant (only 2x): I have never played 4x Confidant in Legacy based on the amount of aggro running around. With Force of Will and other such high costed cards it is not beneficial to have more than 1 active Confidant which makes any Confidant drawn a dead draw.
Serra Avenger: Serendib Efreet doesn't even compare to Serra Avenger. Sure, Serra Avenger can't come down turn 3; sure, Serra Avenger can't pitch to Force. What I'd like to point out is that Serra Avenger costs 2, which allows another creature or w/e to be played on turn 4 with the Avenger (often I bait the counters with a Jitte). Serra Avenger also doesn't do damage to you which, in combination with Dark Confidant, could kill yourself (which is bad). Many people argue that WW is hard to get to which can't be farther from the truth. With 8 Fetchlands (which count because they can get white mana) the total white producing lands (at least in my build) is 13. I have played against land destructive type decks like Deadguy, Pox, and Goblins and haven't had a trouble dropping the Avenger.

I hope this clarifies some of my card choices.

[Zach Tartell]

I think it could be a card to definetly try in that deck. it could potentially kill Survival by removing their Genesis.

Dude, the thing to hit is Anger. and even then, Survival has like a million more threats than you. I think he's better on account of he's a flier, rather than the RFG 1 card. Must be awful late game to play him twice in one turn (like if you wanted him to be as effective as possible).

[Tao]

Some data from the German Meta:

here in Germany "Hanni Fish" is definetely one of the decks to beat. No tourney without it and very often on the top tables. It sees as much play as Goblins and far more play than Threshold and Solidarity. The deck itself has at least a solid matchup against everything except Pox and many good matchups, especially Combo.

I suggest it for the DTB Forum.

The lists that are played here in Germany are all close to the original "Hanni" list. They vary, but if you build the average of all decks, it would be very close to the original list. The creature base of every deck is ALWAYS 3 Mom, 3-4 Confi, 3-4 MM, 2-3 Avenger, 2-3 Grunt. Furthermore every list has 8 Vision/Brainstorm, 4 Forces, 4 Swords and 2-3 Jitte. Most decks also run Stifle and Daze, but not all. Counterspells are played MD in some decks as well as Duress, Needle or Repeal. A few decks play Wasteland (I like) or Silver Knight.

No one plays Lose hope. Creatures like Negator or Serendib Efreet are not played at all. Counterbalance/Top has not been played, too.

[Brizzle]

Hello everyone,
Long time lurker, first time poster.
I took this deck to a small FNM last week. I used this list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Serum Visions
3 Daze
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Stifle
2 Counterspell

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vindicate
2 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives

My conclusions from the experience is that this deck is both competitive and very fun. I personally enjoy this deck because it uses some of my favorite creatures: Bob, Chris and Serra.

I found the the Grunt is savage against thresh! I ended up losing to some enchantress deck. I found a hard time dealing with any enchantments that resolved and couldn't kill him with Solitary Confinement out before several Eledamri's Vineyard caused me to Mana burn to death. Oh well.

I still highly recommend this deck and will be playing it in the future.

[Citrus-God]

Some data from the German Meta:

here in Germany "Hanni Fish" is definetely one of the decks to beat. No tourney without it and very often on the top tables. It sees as much play as Goblins and far more play than Threshold and Solidarity. The deck itself has at least a solid matchup against everything except Pox and many good matchups, especially Combo.

I suggest it for the DTB Forum.

The lists that are played here in Germany are all close to the original "Hanni" list. They vary, but if you build the average of all decks, it would be very close to the original list. The creature base of every deck is ALWAYS 3 Mom, 3-4 Confi, 3-4 MM, 2-3 Avenger, 2-3 Grunt. Furthermore every list has 8 Vision/Brainstorm, 4 Forces, 4 Swords and 2-3 Jitte. Most decks also run Stifle and Daze, but not all. Counterspells are played MD in some decks as well as Duress, Needle or Repeal. A few decks play Wasteland (I like) or Silver Knight.

No one plays Lose hope. Creatures like Negator or Serendib Efreet are not played at all. Counterbalance/Top has not been played, too.

It doesnt matter if Negator and Efreet are not played, but Counterbalance should not be dismissed. I was very satisfied with them, and even Threshold has a fighting chance now solely because of Counterbalance. WUb Fish has cantrips, and this is one of the fastest decks that can assemble the Counterbalance/Top combo. It should be considered. It makes games versus LftL in your favor. An active Top in the aggro-control mirror already means gg.

[Tao]

It doesnt matter if Negator and Efreet are not played, but Counterbalance should not be dismissed. I was very satisfied with them, and even Threshold has a fighting chance now solely because of Counterbalance. WUb Fish has cantrips, and this is one of the fastest decks that can assemble the Counterbalance/Top combo. It should be considered. It makes games versus LftL in your favor. An active Top in the aggro-control mirror already means gg.

I just gave data without my opinion because I think it may be interesting and helpful.

But if you want my opinion:

- Negator: just bad. It improves the good matchups slightly and is a dead card in the problematic matchups. No need for it.
- Efreet: worse than Avenger. More Expansive, relevant Lifeloss in upkeep (combined with Confidant and FoW it can hurt), no Vigilance with Jitte. Play Avenger.
- Counterbalance:. It has synergy written all over it and it will find its way into some Uwb decks.

[Citrus-God]

I just gave data without my opinion because I think it may be interesting and helpful.

But if you want my opinion:

- Negator: just bad. It improves the good matchups slightly and is a dead card in the problematic matchups. No need for it.
- Efreet: worse than Avenger. More Expansive, relevant Lifeloss in upkeep (combined with Confidant and FoW it can hurt), no Vigilance with Jitte. Play Avenger.
- Counterbalance:. It has synergy written all over it and it will find its way into some Uwb decks.

I'm testing Avenger right now actually. I'm very satisfied with them, and they make cards like Jitte and/or 1-2 Moms very dangerous. She is insane right now, and may be the reason why I still have hope in this deck.

[diffy]

Hey everyone,

Due to me not being able to put together any other Deck, I took Hanni Fish (Hanni's newest maindeck except for +1 Jitte [yes, 61 cards]) to our local tournament (around 30 people) and went 3-2 taking 7th place with it playing against:

BW Confidant -> WIN
SamouraiRadom -> WIN (allthough M&M sucks against random decks)
Weemen! -> LOOSE
Boros -> LOOSE
BG Madness -> WIN

I was not satisified with the deck's overall performance, but that might just be meta related as all Fishesque Decks around here have made combo somewhat unplayable and aggro a very good choice... (Top 8 Decks (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=523)) I mean, I didn't play versus any good matchups and the loses were just so bad that I didn't even have the slightest hope of having a glimps at a chance of thinking of a win... and the Meta seems to evolve even further into an agressive one...


But well, I don't like giving up on HanniFish but something has to be done regarding the Aggro MU or this deck will die out because aggro is allways going to be a proportion of the field that has to be considered, especially in bigger tournaments.

Let's take a quick look at the different cards of HanniFish in the aggro Matchup:

Meddling Mage is a mere 2/2
Dark Confidant is burned away or helps the opponnents clock (sucks at blocking or beating)
Mother of Runes doesn't live long (but if she does she helps a little)
Duress can only steal a burn or pump
Daze is okay
Force is not so good (Card disadvantage+ping)
Cantrips are meh (too much tempo spent)
Stifle sucks (manadenial part is not relevant because of the low opposing curve, no good other targets available)

The only real threats to the opponnent are Swords, Jitte, Grunt and Serra Avenger wich do only represent a slight part of the deck...

So I would ask if there is anything to make the aggro matchup better?
***** has efficient, cheap beaters (4/4s and 3/3s accompanied by 6/6s are somewhat good against opposing creatures), Red Death has Burn and E.R.A (aka Pyroclasm deck) has Silverknights and Pyroclasm to help the creature Matchups...
So what can be fitted into HanniFish to make it's aggro matchup better while not diluting its other strenghts down (too) much?

Thanks in advance for advice and for reading an awfull post done after something like 3 hours of sleep


@Counterbalance

Isn't that a little win more? The Combo matchup is nowhere near to loosable (at least in my experience) and the Fish/Grow mirror is good too because of Bob and Jitte (to some extent).
I personally love the card and am trying it mainboard in ***** (which hasn't nearly as a good combo MU as HanniFish) but I don't think it belongs here.

@Negator

Sucks in aggro MU, good versus (board) controll... dunno if it's good... but not mainboard as I think that there is a desperate need for more stuff versus aggro Decks.

[Zach Tartell]

Hey everyone,

Due to me not being able to put together any other Deck, I took Hanni Fish (Hanni's newest maindeck except for +1 Jitte [yes, 61 cards]) to our local tournament (around 30 people) and went 3-2 taking 7th place with it playing against:

BW Confidant -> WIN
SamouraiRadom -> WIN (allthough M&M sucks against random decks)
Weemen! -> LOOSE
Boros -> LOOSE
BG Madness -> WIN

I was not satisified with the deck's overall performance, but that might just be meta related as all Fishesque Decks around here have made combo somewhat unplayable and aggro a very good choice... (Top 8 Decks (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=523)) I mean, I didn't play versus any good matchups and the loses were just so bad that I didn't even have the slightest hope of having a glimps at a chance of thinking of a win... and the Meta seems to evolve even further into an agressive one...


But well, I don't like giving up on HanniFish but something has to be done regarding the Aggro MU or this deck will die out because aggro is allways going to be a proportion of the field that has to be considered, especially in bigger tournaments.

Let's take a quick look at the different cards of HanniFish in the aggro Matchup:

Meddling Mage is a mere 2/2
Dark Confidant is burned away or helps the opponnents clock (sucks at blocking or beating)
Mother of Runes doesn't live long (but if she does she helps a little)
Duress can only steal a burn or pump
Daze is okay
Force is not so good (Card disadvantage+ping)
Cantrips are meh (too much tempo spent)
Stifle sucks (manadenial part is not relevant because of the low opposing curve, no good other targets available)

The only real threats to the opponnent are Swords, Jitte, Grunt and Serra Avenger wich do only represent a slight part of the deck...


Have you been drinking? I don't even like this deck, but I can see it's virtues better than you. Meddling mage just a 2/2? Are you serious dude? Confidant sucks? Force is bad because it's card disadvantage? Stiflesucks?!? And the only threats are grunt and avenger? I don't even know where to start tearing this apart.

Fish' only bad matchup in the "big 3" is goblins, which is vastly improved by dropping 4 dead cards (Duress, if they're main boarded) for 4 EP's, which is a pretty good answer. Their slightly smaller counter package doesn't hurt against gro, but grunt + Mom = no were bear beats. Similarly, Avenger + mom = no enforcer/dragon/dragonauts beats.

Have you ever played this deck? It looks alot worse on paper, but let me tell you, it's a solid deck in today's meta. If you've overlooked enchantress.

[Hanni]

I haven't been working on UWb Fish much lately, but after glancing at this thread... I'm very disappointed.

So many people fail to understand key concepts and synergies within the deck that make it function good. Cards like SoFI and Negator... the deck doesn't have Ancient Tomb, running SoFI and Jitte and Negator together just isn't good... the whole idea behind the way the deck was built was that it abused to lower cc's of cards like Serra Avenger. If the deck can play 1-2+ spells a turn throughout the early game, it will gain serious advantages in tempo. (Tempo in itself is a concept I don't want to elaborate on too much here because some opinions on it vary and it's a very hotly debated topic) The above example of low cc's is just 1 concept that some people seem to have misinterpreted among others. Build the deck as you want though, that's why there is a thread for it here for you guys to discuss ideas. I normally wouldn't have posted anything, but I really felt I needed to comment on this:

Since it already has been quoted once by lonelybaritone, I would like to comment on Der_imaginäre_Freund's post.

This deck does not have a terrible aggro matchup. Some aggro matchups may be slightly unfavorable or difficult to play against... but the deck doesn't roll over to an aggro format. Not even Goblins rolls this deck over, although game 1 is typically unfavorable. Let me explain:

I realize that Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage are small guys... that's why the deck has Jitte and Mother of Runes. These are both essential ingredients of synergy... the reason why the deck can actually do well with them as aggro. Mom turns them into psueo Silver Knights (sorta), and Jitte turns them into 6/5's and 6/6's. The reason why they work so well though is because of their additional utility... the ability to prevent your opponent from playing something and the ability to draw extra cards is huge.

I don't even run maindeck Duress anymore (although I would if Goblins had less of a presence). I dropped 3 Duress for 1 Jitte, 1 Mother of Runes, and 1 Serra Avenger in my most current build, putting Duress in the sideboard.

Duress is also amazing, if you think it sucks then you don't understand key concepts of the deck. Card quality differential is huge and the ability to see the opponent's hand makes Meddling Mage that much stronger (even against randomness). Force is what makes the deck amazing... you get to tap out and curve out to play your guys and such yet still have the ability to tell your opponent "no." Daze fits right into this concept as well. You might as well go into the Threshold thread and tell them to drop Force... I mean, at least I have Confidant to make up for the card disadvantage--they don't.

Cantrips are a fundamentally important portion of this deck. They keep the deck going... they increase the consistency output like crazy, whether it's by fixing early game hands or preventing oneself from topdecking useless lands later in the game (etc etc, tons of uses). Why do people attribute cantrips to tempo loss? I will never understand this. How is a 1cc spell completely stealing your tempo? If you can play a guy, play the guy and don't cantrip. If you have no guys and you instead cantrip to dig into one, your gaining tempo by not having to wait a ton of a turns to topdeck into one. Once the deck hits mid-late game, you're going to have so many excess lands that it really makes no difference how many cantrips you cast in a turn... and I usually leave excess lands in hand so I can hopefully Brainstorm them away. Again, this goes back to the topic of tempo and I don't really want to discuss tempo in this thread.

Stifle sucks? Stifle was added after I realized I needed more for my Goblins matchup? How in the hell does Stifle suck? On it's own, it makes your Grunts swing for an extra 4 a turn. Against opposing stratgies, it protects vs Wasteland or steals tempo by popping fetchlands. It saves your guys from Fanatics and Incinerators (huge here since it's the only answer to Incinerator besides pro red from Mom). It also prevents the Goblins player from out-resourcing you with Matron/Ringleader. Against Solidarity, it slows them down by screwing over their land production and against TES is counters the storm triggers. It answers Deed after the opponent invests 5 mana into it, Engineered Explosives after they invest 4 mana, so on and so forth. I don't really feel as though this needs explained that much more.

Overall, you completely misunderstand the deck... I can see why you lost 3-2. Maybe you should playtest with the deck a bit to get a feel for it, playskill is a huge factor when piloting this deck. Unfortunately, this deck isn't as mindless as something like Goblins (which I do realize isn't mindless).

Anyway, I'm not going to get into detail about the other information presented. I encourage everyone to try out new ideas if they feel they have merit and I appreciate the attention that The Source has given this deck lately.

[Nightmare]

What Hanni Said

I agree with everything. Also, I'm glad you decided to cut the MD Duresses. Now I just have to convince you that you can cut the Serum Visions and Swamp, and we're good to go. Oh, and stop playing Lose Hope. Fo rizzle. <3

[Hanni]

I won't be cutting the Serum Visions ever. Never ever. It does too much for the deck, and it's one big reason why the deck is so incredibly consistent.

I decided that I'd rather just run more men vs Goblins than Lose Hope since they help in other matchups as well.

MD Duress is awesome, I wish it actually did something vs Goblins. But, it doesn't do much against Goblins so it needs to be sideboarded.

I haven't done much testing with the Swamp but the basic idea was that I didn't wanna get cut off from black... I really need to cast Engineered Plague g2 vs Goblins and Confidant is extremely important in that matchup as well. I don't think it's hurting the manabase too bad being in there and the fact that the deck has allied colors means that the fetchlands grab it much easier than the basic Forest in Threshold. However, it may or may not be a good idea in the deck. I'm not really sure.

I'll go edit the 1st page and get rid of the Lose Hope's. They were a great idea, but I don't think they're necessary.

[Nightmare]

I haven't done much testing with the Swamp but the basic idea was that I didn't wanna get cut off from black... I really need to cast Engineered Plague g2 vs Goblins and Confidant is extremely important in that matchup as well. I don't think it's hurting the manabase too bad being in there and the fact that the deck has allied colors means that the fetchlands grab it much easier than the basic Forest in Threshold. However, it may or may not be a good idea in the deck. I'm not really sure.I'm well aware of why you want the Swamp, but I think your logic is flawed. There are no situations where a fetchland sitting uncracked does not tap for a black mana to play your Plague, especially when you cut the Duresses. In fact, I actually board out my Confidants vs. Goblins (Travesty, I know), because the BEBs and Plagues (I run 4) are much better than the creatures they replace. Again, with 4 Mom, 3 Avenger, 3 Jitte, 3 Grunt, 8 Swords, and 4 permanent Wrath effects (oh, and post board 3 Needles), the matchup improves greatly after siding. With Goblins' fast clock, I found Bob to hurt me much more than help me. I've found this boarding strategy successful, and it allows me to have easy access to the black mana when I need it (Seas can be Lotus Petals if needed).

[Citrus-God]

Hey everyone,

@Counterbalance

Isn't that a little win more? The Combo matchup is nowhere near to loosable (at least in my experience) and the Fish/Grow mirror is good too because of Bob and Jitte (to some extent).
I personally love the card and am trying it mainboard in ***** (which hasn't nearly as a good combo MU as HanniFish) but I don't think it belongs here.



Not really. I mean, it does help with your match ups against decks like Life from the Loam. It's also not meant to be Maindecked. As I said before, it's too situational against decks like Goblins, and Faerie Stompy. Angel Stompy is another deck that goes 50/50 against this deck. With Counterbalance, it's probably 70/30 in your favor. It's actually there for your bad match-ups. It fights things Post-Board too... of course, if you expect hate from the other player. It can fight Pyroclasms, and Needles if they try and shut down your Jitte. To make things better, you dont have to your Meddling Magi on Swords... Counterbalance does that for you. It also also be boarded in against a deck like The Truffle Shuffle which is a bad match up for you. Look at Counterbalance/Top now... Heres are 1-2 CCs of Truffle Shuffle;

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaea's Blessing

You can now Protect your counters from discard. Swords cant touch anything, so now your free to set your Mage on WoG effects now. Same goes for Rifter and Wombat; it can stop Orim's Chant and Abeyance. I seriously encourage it.

[Tao]

Heres are 1-2 CCs of Truffle Shuffle;

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaea's Blessing


Not to forget that they will never resolve a
- Haunting Echoes
- Grave-Shell Scarab
- Gigapede
again with Top and a Force on it.

[Citrus-God]

Not to forget that they will never resolve a
- Haunting Echoes
- Grave-Shell Scarab
- Gigapede
again with Top and a Force on it.

Gigapede and Grave Shell can keep coming back, but Top and Counterbalance is there for you.

I did some playtesting against Red Death and Deadguy today. It's defintely in your favor, and it is very hard for your opponent to recover.

[Tosh]

Not really. I mean, it does help with your match ups against decks like Life from the Loam. It's also not meant to be Maindecked.

A resolved Counterbalance in game 1 is very good, especially early game. I usually side them out against gobs as well as bobs. I really like counterbalance MD and I've been running top w/ bob for a long time so it seemed like a good addition to the MD. Even against Goblins and Faerie Stompy, counterbalance is never bad. The thing to remember is that this deck shouldn't turn into counterbalance.dec, it should remain as fish and use counterbalance instead of counterspell (counterbalance is a free counterspell against many spells) and, in some situations, be a drop-"I Win" card. It also improves some match ups that aren't as favorable to us (it helps a lot against burn, which I recently played against and I'm not sure how the game would've gone w/o counterbalance; I've also tested quite a few times against pox and it isn't bad either seeing how their spells cost 2 and ours mainly cost 2 so counterbalance counters almost all of their important spells, cept pox itself which is what FoW is for).

[diffy]

Sinthesis of the following:

All in all, I think you people misunderstood my point as it was no critique towards Fish which I think as a great deck against the trinity but all of my points were made regarding nothing but the aggro matchup.
Meddling Mage, Bob and all of those cards... I do understand their functions and they are amazing but not so as I found when facing opposing avengers, Grunts, SilverKnights, Carnophages & co (accompanied by burn to stop confis cA).



Have you been drinking? I don't even like this deck, but I can see it's virtues better than you. Meddling mage just a 2/2? Are you serious dude? Confidant sucks? Force is bad because it's card disadvantage? Stiflesucks?!? And the only threats are grunt and avenger? I don't even know where to start tearing this apart.

Fish' only bad matchup in the "big 3" is goblins, which is vastly improved by dropping 4 dead cards (Duress, if they're main boarded) for 4 EP's, which is a pretty good answer. Their slightly smaller counter package doesn't hurt against gro, but grunt + Mom = no were bear beats. Similarly, Avenger + mom = no enforcer/dragon/dragonauts beats.


I don't say that Fish has a bad MU against the tier 1 (trinity)... I usually love to play against either one of them (because they are Matchups which are fairly simple to play against in my opinion) and I do know the merits of Meddling Mage, Bob & Co outside of the aggro matchup

But, my post was related towards the matchup against random aggro... go and play against RG Beatz (aka ZillaStompy), Angel Stompy, Boros, BGR Aggro and all that Stuff... those Matchups are really not fin...
and well, stifle ROCKS against Solidarity and Gobs but does nothing against the above named matchups.



Have you ever played this deck? It looks alot worse on paper, but let me tell you, it's a solid deck in today's meta. If you've overlooked enchantress.



Overall, you completely misunderstand the deck... I can see why you lost 3-2. Maybe you should playtest with the deck a bit to get a feel for it, playskill is a huge factor when piloting this deck. Unfortunately, this deck isn't as mindless as something like Goblins (which I do realize isn't mindless).


I've played this deck since Laurent Fleury's top 8 on PT Kobe side event, thank you. I might not be the most decent player, but I'm still young and working on it.

I know it is a solid choice against Goblins, Solidarity and ***** and an amazing deck against combo (like Tao said), but well, I live in Germany and in a Meta in which absolutely no one plays conventional Decks (look at that top 8 I posted a link to please, or only look at the 5th place deck)...

I do also understand the function of duress as a sort of cantrip because it generates card quality by creating a negative card quality for your opponent.



Stifle sucks? Stifle was added after I realized I needed more for my Goblins matchup? How in the hell does Stifle suck? On it's own, it makes your Grunts swing for an extra 4 a turn. Against opposing stratgies, it protects vs Wasteland or steals tempo by popping fetchlands. It saves your guys from Fanatics and Incinerators (huge here since it's the only answer to Incinerator besides pro red from Mom). It also prevents the Goblins player from out-resourcing you with Matron/Ringleader. Against Solidarity, it slows them down by screwing over their land production and against TES is counters the storm triggers. It answers Deed after the opponent invests 5 mana into it, Engineered Explosives after they invest 4 mana, so on and so forth. I don't really feel as though this needs explained that much more.


As said above, I absolutely love stifle and do know its merits... but in the Matchups against random aggro it does for me nothing more than stop fetchies... which is kinda irrelevant because of the opposing low mana curve.



I realize that Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage are small guys... that's why the deck has Jitte and Mother of Runes. These are both essential ingredients of synergy... the reason why the deck can actually do well with them as aggro. Mom turns them into psueo Silver Knights (sorta), and Jitte turns them into 6/5's and 6/6's. The reason why they work so well though is because of their additional utility... the ability to prevent your opponent from playing something and the ability to draw extra cards is huge.


Well yes. Meddling Mage, Bob and Co do all have their merits, but in the aggro matchup they are only a real threat or stoping the opponent from running over you if you get jitte (or a connecting mom without burn from the opposing side) to connect, at least in my experience. Or did I miss something there?



Stuff regarding Force


I said that force is Meh against opposing aggro because a single countered thread isn't really a loss to them.



Stuff regarding cantrips


Again, I did these statements regarding nothing but the aggro matchup because I found myself far to often cantriping into cantrips or spending too much time seeking solutions instead of stoping the beatdown.


But well, anyways, I'll drop those MB Duresses and see how it works.
I hope to have made my point a little clearer though.

Thanks for reading and maybe for sharing your experience in the Aggro Matchups (outside Gobs which I know how to play against) with me.

[Citrus-God]

A resolved Counterbalance in game 1 is very good, especially early game. I usually side them out against gobs as well as bobs. I really like counterbalance MD and I've been running top w/ bob for a long time so it seemed like a good addition to the MD. Even against Goblins and Faerie Stompy, counterbalance is never bad. The thing to remember is that this deck shouldn't turn into counterbalance.dec, it should remain as fish and use counterbalance instead of counterspell (counterbalance is a free counterspell against many spells) and, in some situations, be a drop-"I Win" card. It also improves some match ups that aren't as favorable to us (it helps a lot against burn, which I recently played against and I'm not sure how the game would've gone w/o counterbalance; I've also tested quite a few times against pox and it isn't bad either seeing how their spells cost 2 and ours mainly cost 2 so counterbalance counters almost all of their important spells, cept pox itself which is what FoW is for).

I agree with you. I should change my statement about Counterbalance; Maindeck it only if your meta isnt Goblin crazy like my meta. :)

Thanks for your insight on Counterbalance. IMO, will not Maindeck it if I go to Columbus (although Goblins wouldnt be rampant due to the insane amounts of IGGy Pop, it honestly seems like a win-more card here due to the fact that this deck crushes delicate Combo decks already), but it should still be considered as a strong option depenidng on metagame.

[Nihil Credo]

I tried building a Fish deck that focused much more on the Counterbalance/Top engine. The results have not been awesome, but still interesting

UB TrinketFish

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
5 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Dark Confidant
3 Rotting Giant
4 Trinket Mage
2 Phyrexian Negator

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Serum Visions
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB: Duress, extra removal, Blue Elemental Blasts, extra Trinket Mage targets


I cut White partly because UU for Counterbalance was a stretch on the manabase, and after cutting the double-white cards I found Mage and Mother not worth the colour trouble, since Counterbalance emulates them both pretty well. Going down to two colors allowed me to add Mishra's Factories, which have proved to be very useful.

As one can expect, this Fish version is better at fighting 1) Combo 2) Randomness and 3) Control, with the more important one being Randomness: Counterbalance is much more reliable in those matchups than Meddling Mage, for obvious reasons. Goblins isn't that bad, since *if* you stop their initial rush you can quickly Needle Vial, drop CounterTop and lock them out of the game. However, other aggro decks are much, much worse than regular UBW Fish: if you can't keep Jitte on the table, you lose fairly quickly.

[Adan]

And why exactly is yout Fish better in fightning Combo, Control and Randomdecks?

I don't see anything that's better than UWb Fish. I think you are relying too much on the Countertop engine, since it's not that insane.

Plus, you Play Rotting Giant and Phyrexian Negators. 2 Creature which are DEFINETLY inferior to Jotun Grunt and Serra Avenger, since Negator is dead against Aggro or any Decks running Burn.

And Meddling Mage disturbs Combo a lot more than Counterbalance i think, as he's also a 2/2 bear that can wear a Jitte.

I really don't know... your build lookes more like you tried to cut white, finding some substitutes and add the Counterbalance-Engine.

[Nihil Credo]

And why exactly is yout Fish better in fightning Combo, Control and Randomdecks?
Because...

And Meddling Mage disturbs Combo a lot more than Counterbalance i think, as he's also a 2/2 bear that can wear a Jitte.
...this statement is wrong. Just try going off with Solidarity (or TES, or any storm combo) while Counterbalance/Top is on the table.


I really don't know... your build lookes more like you tried to cut white, finding some substitutes and add the Counterbalance-Engine.

Well, it went the other way around... I added the Counterbalance engine and then ended up cutting white.

Honestly, if I were to play tomorrow I'd play UBW Fish, surely not my version. It's just a secondary deck I'm fooling around with.

[Adan]

Aight, but Solidarity can't take of either with Meddling Mage on the board set on High Tide :wink:

But I really don't like UB, since Black is one of the weakest colors in Legacy as it leaks of good spotremoval, enchantment and artifact removal and some serious manpower.

[Tosh]

I cut White partly because UU for Counterbalance was a stretch on the manabase, and after cutting the double-white cards I found Mage and Mother not worth the colour trouble, since Counterbalance emulates them both pretty well. Going down to two colors allowed me to add Mishra's Factories, which have proved to be very useful.

I have not had any trouble hitting UU (Counterbalance) or WW (Avenger). I use black as a splash where it looks like you use black as more of a main color. Heres my list for reference:

// Lands
1 [7E] Swamp (4)
1 [MI] Plains (1)
3 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [MI] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [MR] AEther Spellbomb

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

I'm still testing the effectiveness of the Stonecloaker and the Aether Spellbomb. Stonecloaker has helped gain card advantage by preventing the death of a creature. AEther Spellbomb is there to be fetched for, it can return a problem creature (such as an opposing Meddling Mage) or draw me a card.

[scrumdogg]

Spellbomb can also return a Stonecloaker which can then save a guy, lots of screwy tricks. Or Spellbomb can bounce a Jotun Grunt or a guy that just traed lethal in combat. How has the deck been running with no Counterspell (the card) and only 2 Bob? Seems wrong somehow...also, why a 14 card sideboard? Was there another 1x supposed to be there or was one the 3x supposed to be 4x?

[Lukas Preuss]

Aight, but Solidarity can't take of either with Meddling Mage on the board set on High Tide :wink:

I really hope that smiley was meant to imply irony. Meddling Mage set on High Tide is really not such a great problem for Solidarity if it is not backed up by a decend clock (or insane amounts of counterspells). I have won tons of games through Meddling Mage and multiple counters (UGw Threshold, UW Landstill post sideboard, etc.). Twincast and Reset create more than enough mana if you have 5 or more lands.

[Tosh]

How has the deck been running with no Counterspell (the card) and only 2 Bob? Seems wrong somehow...also, why a 14 card sideboard? Was there another 1x supposed to be there or was one the 3x supposed to be 4x?


Counterspell: This card has time and time again been underwhelming to me. For UU there are better things to play (such as Counterbalance). I also do not like holding back and slowing my clock in order to keep counterspell mana open.

Dark Confidant: Dark Confidant can help in some situations and in some, it can hurt. Multiple Dark Confidants are obviously bad and so drawing a 2nd is not a good draw and I'd like to keep drawing good spells. Another reason I don't run many Bobs is because I do not like depending on a 1 toughness creature that can come down turn 2 at max. I like to compare Confidant in Fish to Lackey in Goblins (Their functions are similar). Lackey comes down turn 1; Confidant comes down turn 2. Lackey attacks, (assuming it's unblocked) does 1 damage and you get to drop a creature; Confidant attacks, (assuming it's unblocked) does 2 damage and you got a card during your upkeep (average cost in the deck is 2) which did 2 damage to you. The card advantage is virtually the same (Goblins getting their advantage on the board and Fish getting their advantage in their hand) but the damage is way different, Confidant doesn't bring you ahead in the life race while Lackey does. Now before you start criticizing this analysis and comparison understand that I did not intend for this to take into account any other cards in either deck besides the average casting cost in Fish which is similar in every UWb variant.

Sideboard: There are 15 cards...

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle (1)
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives (2)
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate (5)
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void (8)
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague (11)
SB: 3 [7E] Duress (14)
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt (15)

[Hanni]

That was the most rediculous comparison I ever heard Klaan. There is absolutely no way to compare Lackey to Dark Confidant because the functions they are provide are completely different to their coresponding decks.

I run 4 Confidant because I want to see Confidant every game and because I know that it's going to be the main target for my opponent's removal. If you run 2 Confidant, chances are that you're only going to actually get to draw cards from him once in a blue moon.

In response to the whole Counterbalance/Top thing, I think that's a different deck altogether. However, this is my feelings towards it:

Why? What difficult matchups does it actually improve for you?

Counterbalance helps the matchups this deck already smashes: Threshold and Combo. What's the point then? If you're worried about it helping stop Loam... run some Extirpates in the board rather than change the design of the deck to support Counterbalance.

Counterbalance is bad because it doesn't do anything to change the game state when you initially cast it. So you pay UU for something that does nothing immediately. You do realize that this deck wins by using fundamental "tempo" concepts, right?

I agree that Counterbalance/Top can be effective. At what cost? Spending all of you're mana sources to try and find the right card to be able to trigger Counterblanace? This deck doesn't need to create a lock. All it needs to do is keep the opponent off balance early game and beat face. The deck has cantrip to fuel it through into the late game and control options like Jitte and Confidant to maintain strength in the late game. Again I ask the question, why run Counterbalance?

Top itself sucks in this deck and is greatly inferior to simply running 8 cantrip. This deck cannot afford to play and use Top in the early game, seeing multiples in a given game is extremely retarded, and the deck doesn't need extra late-game strengthening cards.

If you're going to try and make radical changes to the way the deck is currently built, make sure the changes make the g1 Goblins matchup stronger and not Threshold and Combo. Alot of people seem to want to play with Counterbalance though, so whatever floats your boats.

[Tosh]

That was the most rediculous comparison I ever heard Klaan. There is absolutely no way to compare Lackey to Dark Confidant because the functions they are provide are completely different to their coresponding decks.
Can you shed light on how they function differently then? Both of the cards' purpose is to accelerate; however, I admit that how they accelerate is slightly different: the board or cards in hand


I run 4 Confidant because I want to see Confidant every game and because I know that it's going to be the main target for my opponent's removal. If you run 2 Confidant, chances are that you're only going to actually get to draw cards from him once in a blue moon.
Running 2x Confidant allows me to still draw confidant regularly but also limits the amount that I get in a game. Drawing 1 Confidant with 2 in the deck: Turn0=22% Turn1=25% Turn2=28% Turn3=31% Turn4=34% Turn5=36%. These chances are good enough for me for a 4/5 star card. Oh yeah, and if they're using removal on Confidant that means they aren't using removal on Grunt and Avenger which is good.


In response to the whole Counterbalance/Top thing, I think that's a different deck altogether. However, this is my feelings towards it:
Why? What difficult matchups does it actually improve for you?
Counterbalance helps the matchups this deck already smashes
Counterbalance is good against aggro decks, which is our hardest matchup. Aggro decks win with creatures, and Counterbalance can counter the majority of creatures an aggro deck will play. Top is not necessary with Counterbalance, it is just a plus.


Top itself sucks in this deck and is greatly inferior to simply running 8 cantrip. This deck cannot afford to play and use Top in the early game, seeing multiples in a given game is extremely retarded, and the deck doesn't need extra late-game strengthening cards.
Top is not a necessary card and getting multiples is bad which is why I only run 3 and am considering cutting it to 2. Notice that I did not cut any cantrips to make room for Top, I still run 4x Serum Visions and 4x Brainstorm. Top not only helps with Counterbalance but also with Confidant, minimizing damage.

I admit that my deck is morphing into something a little different than the standard UWb Fish so, I have decided to put a Primer together for my version of UWb Fish (I like to call it New Age UWb Fish, or NAF).

[Anarky87]

That was the most rediculous comparison I ever heard Klaan. There is absolutely no way to compare Lackey to Dark Confidant because the functions they are provide are completely different to their coresponding decks.

I run 4 Confidant because I want to see Confidant every game and because I know that it's going to be the main target for my opponent's removal. If you run 2 Confidant, chances are that you're only going to actually get to draw cards from him once in a blue moon.

In response to the whole Counterbalance/Top thing, I think that's a different deck altogether. However, this is my feelings towards it:

Why? What difficult matchups does it actually improve for you?

Counterbalance helps the matchups this deck already smashes: Threshold and Combo. What's the point then? If you're worried about it helping stop Loam... run some Extirpates in the board rather than change the design of the deck to support Counterbalance.

Counterbalance is bad because it doesn't do anything to change the game state when you initially cast it. So you pay UU for something that does nothing immediately. You do realize that this deck wins by using fundamental "tempo" concepts, right?

I agree that Counterbalance/Top can be effective. At what cost? Spending all of you're mana sources to try and find the right card to be able to trigger Counterblanace? This deck doesn't need to create a lock. All it needs to do is keep the opponent off balance early game and beat face. The deck has cantrip to fuel it through into the late game and control options like Jitte and Confidant to maintain strength in the late game. Again I ask the question, why run Counterbalance?

Top itself sucks in this deck and is greatly inferior to simply running 8 cantrip. This deck cannot afford to play and use Top in the early game, seeing multiples in a given game is extremely retarded, and the deck doesn't need extra late-game strengthening cards.

If you're going to try and make radical changes to the way the deck is currently built, make sure the changes make the g1 Goblins matchup stronger and not Threshold and Combo. Alot of people seem to want to play with Counterbalance though, so whatever floats your boats.


I'm pretty much in agreement with Hanni here. The way he built the deck to begin with was fine and I don't see why people are feeling the need to change it. The only changes my group has done was adding 2 Lose Hopes MD to fight Lackey, and I think they alternated -1 Grunt to +1 Avenger, because she's insane and I've added 1 EE in my build. Balance/Top have no place in this deck, of course if you want to do your own spin off, go right ahead, in another thread. The deck already handles what Balance/Top try to accomplish and I've won with this deck late game simply by dropping Avenger and Jitte and going to town.

Either run 4 Confidants or don't run them at all; running only 2 Confidants is completely asinine. You do realize that if unanswered he provides an endless stream of extra cards every turn on top of beating for 2 or carrying a Jitte?


Oh yeah, and if they're using removal on Confidant that means they aren't using removal on Grunt and Avenger which is good.

Except in your case their removal will be hitting your Grunts and Avengers because you have Confidant as a 2-of. They hit Confidant because letting him stay means you're putting more creatures and more answers into your hand. What does it matter if you nail a 3/3, but let them draw 2 cards a turn to replace it?


Counterbalance is good against aggro decks, which is our hardest matchup. Aggro decks win with creatures, and Counterbalance can counter the majority of creatures an aggro deck will play. Top is not necessary with Counterbalance, it is just a plus.

What aggro decks are you having trouble with? I've had a pretty good game against aggro so far and I've watched others smash aggro as well. I don't see how Counterbalance helps your aggro match since when you cast it, it has no immediate effect on the game. And without Top, there's no way to control what they play with Counterbalance save for Brainstorm and Visions stacking.

Hanni had this deck down nigh perfectly and there was never any reason to do savage overhauls to his list.

[Tosh]

Except in your case their removal will be hitting your Grunts and Avengers because you have Confidant as a 2-of.
[...]
What aggro decks are you having trouble with? I've had a pretty good game against aggro so far and I've watched others smash aggro as well. I don't see how Counterbalance helps your aggro match since when you cast it, it has no immediate effect on the game. And without Top, there's no way to control what they play with Counterbalance save for Brainstorm and Visions stacking.
I disagree on several points here:

Almost the entire format is tuned to destroy a 1 toughness creature (because of Lackey). Grunt and Avenger are significantly harder to get rid of than confidant. I'm not putting down Confidant because he is a good card; I have been thinking about -1 Top +1 Confidant.

To clarify my thought process, here is how it went:
Dark Confidant -> Sensei's Divining Top -> Counterbalance -> Trinket Mage -> Trinket Mage Toolbox

I do not understand you: according to what you just said and what has been said previously, there are not any bad match ups for this deck and I find that hard to believe. If you can prove that Fish has a good MU against Aggro I'll believe you, but in the 3-type format (Aggro, Combo, and Control) it is my understanding that the Aggro is the weakest match up.

On CB w/o Top: Counterbalance can counter some spells (mainly 2 costs) without library manipulation due to the pretty low land count. Counterbalance also turns your Brainstorms into Counterspells and, if you kind of know what they're going to play, turn your serum visions into them as well.

If you guys believe that my list is too different from Hanni's Fish to belong this thread then once I complete my primer, I will start a new thread on it. I apologize for any comments that may have detracted from the development of this version of fish.

[sammiel]

I disagree on several points here:

Almost the entire format is tuned to destroy a 1 toughness creature (because of Lackey). Grunt and Avenger are significantly harder to get rid of than confidant. I'm not putting down Confidant because he is a good card; I have been thinking about -1 Top +1 Confidant.


I do not understand you: according to what you just said and what has been said previously, there are not any bad match ups for this deck and I find that hard to believe. If you can prove that Fish has a good MU against Aggro I'll believe you, but in the 3-type format (Aggro, Combo, and Control) it is my understanding that the Aggro is the weakest match up.

On CB w/o Top: Counterbalance can counter some spells (mainly 2 costs) without library manipulation due to the pretty low land count. Counterbalance also turns your Brainstorms into Counterspells and, if you kind of know what they're going to play, turn your serum visions into them as well.

If you guys believe that my list is too different from Hanni's Fish to belong in Hanni's thread then once I complete my primer, I will start a new thread on it. I apologize, in this case, for dirtying your thread of gloating your perfect Fish decklist.


wow, what a smug little prick.

The format doesn't revolve around destroying x/1 creatures, and you clearly haven't actually tested the deck if you think less than 4 confidants is good.

[Hanni]

Goblins isn't really aggro though, it's aggro/combo/control. Normal aggro decks don't run Fact or Fictions, etc. Goblins is quite a bit different in design from normal aggro decks in that it has overwhelming amounts of card advantage.

What aggro matchups are we talking about, specifically? Faerie Stompy? Angel Stompy? Zoo? Affinity? It would be nice if you specified it more than simply "aggro" because there are different matchup percentages pre and post board for each deck.

Counterbalance is crap vs aggro... let's suppose you do cast it on turn 2. That means that instead of playing a creature, you played a worthless enchantment. What happens if they drop a guy on turn 1? What happens if Counterbalance doesn't counter the guy they drop on turn 2? I'm not quite sure how you figure, exactly, that Counterbalance is going to help you beat aggro. Aggro (aside from Goblins) doesn't beat you by playing a ton of threats and finally pushing through in the mid-late. They beat you by applying pressure that you can't deal with fast enough early on. The reason why the aggro matchup isn't nearly as bad as it seems many people think is because the deck utilizes tempo... you're going to Force/Daze/StP their first few early beats while applying a bit of you're own. During the late game, you have the advantage of card quality via cantrip, card draw via Confidant, and the other virtual card advantages the deck has.

You want a better aggro matchup? Add the 3rd Jitte. Jitte is great vs aggro... Fish has ways of keeping it's guys protected, it has ways of keeping it's Jitte protected, and it has ways of making sure Jitte gets the job done.

I also realize that the format is equipped to handle a 1st turn Lackey. What does it use? StP effects Dark Confidant all the same as it does Grunt. Lightning Bolt effects it the same as it does Avenger. Maybe you're referring to Fanatic? Yes, Fanatic kills Confidant. It also kills Mother of Runes if she hasn't survived long enough. Maybe I shouldn't run Mother of Runes because it's a 1/1?

At any rate, be my guest and run 2 Confidant and 3 Counterbalance. All I'm saying is that I think that is a terrible idea and I want to let people know that I think that is a terrible idea... so if they actually decide to pilot this thing at GP Columbus, it's a good list they are piloting. Why? Well, I wouldn't mind if someone else placed 1st or Top 8'd with it.

[Tosh]

wow, what a smug little prick.
Looking back, I may have been a little harsh in some of my statements (I have edited them to take out the snide parts) and although excuses don't account for much it is finals week and I haven't gotten much sleep.
I realize now that I have been working on a deck that is quite a bit different than you and mine is more centered around the control aspect of aggro-control. Your deck is tuned finer in comparison to your goal than mine is to my goal. My deck needs more work and most likely not be complete in time for GP Columbus. I fully support people running the current list in this thread.
Rather than trying to create a new strain of UWb Fish I tried to impose my ideas on your deck which was wrong. I did not necessarily want to start a new thread for what I thought was the same deck and this thread was starting to fall behind as far as latest post date so I tried to revive it.

[Anarky87]

I disagree on several points here:

Almost the entire format is tuned to destroy a 1 toughness creature (because of Lackey). Grunt and Avenger are significantly harder to get rid of than confidant. I'm not putting down Confidant because he is a good card; I have been thinking about -1 Top +1 Confidant.

They aren't significantly harder to get rid because the format guns for a certain 1/1 with StP and Bolt, which so happen to be excellent at handling Grunt and Avenger, aren't they? Filling your deck with crappy cards that only handle 1/1's makes them pretty shitty when your opponent trumps you with a 2/2 or greater creature.


I do not understand you: according to what you just said and what has been said previously, there are not any bad match ups for this deck and I find that hard to believe. If you can prove that Fish has a good MU against Aggro I'll believe you, but in the 3-type format (Aggro, Combo, and Control) it is my understanding that the Aggro is the weakest match up.

I don't believe I mentioned anywhere that this deck has no bad matchups. What I did mention, however, was that this deck shouldn't have a weak game against aggro unless you're keeping bad hands or playing suboptimal cards (Counterbalance). What I was getting at was that I've watched this deck (And Sammiel can back me up, because we were both at the same tournament) take on another pure aggro deck other than Goblins and win. Sure it went to 3 games and was quite a nail biter, but Fish pulled it out. He also stomped me game 1 of round 1 when I was playing Red Death by getting Mom out with a couple of Mages on key cards. The deck has the tools to beat aggro just fine.

I'm not gonna argue points of Counterbalance in this deck, because I've already stated my opinion and Hanni has expressed the reason it should be excluded. I'm not trying to get in a fight here, I just don't see why people are finding the deck inadequate in its current state. A friend of mine T8'd at the 50+ man dual land tournament in Chicago with this deck, playing Goblins multiple times throughout the day and didn't stumble until the T8 match where he got land screwed, then flooded. Since your ideas and Hanni's are heading in opposite directions, it might be best to submit your deck as a new thread in Development.

[Hanni]

I'm not mad at you in any way for proposing your ideas in this thread. You took the UWb deck and modified it to fit Counterbalance. That's fine. You weren't the only one discussing Counterbalance either. All I was trying to get across is that some of your logic was flawed. Drawing multiple Confidants is not bad, Counterbalance sucks in this deck, and the aggro matchup is not terrible (and Counterbalance doesn't improve the aggro matchup). Most importantly... if you're going to try and improve the aggro matchup, make sure you're improving the Goblins matchup before anything else.

Things like Negator, Counterbalance, etc suck vs Goblins.

[Zilla]

Can you shed light on how they function differently then? Both of the cards' purpose is to accelerate; however, I admit that how they accelerate is slightly different: the board or cards in hand.
They function differently because one generates tempo and the other generates card advantage. Those are not the same thing.

[Tosh]

I am currently participating in the Star City Games' Winter Legacy event playing my decklist and I look forward to seeing how well I do in it. I play this deck weekly at a legacy tournament that I co-run and has about 20-30 people. Most of the people I play against are one of the following:
Someone on my team (Team Infoninjas)
A bad player with a good deck
A person playing a bad deck (doesn't matter if the player is good or not)

I would like to collect results for my deck to see its match up against some of the top deck right now but my team is focusing on MeatHooks which they will be taking to GP Columbus (I can't go). I have played Vial Goblins on a couple of occasions and didn't have any problems beating the shit out of 'em games 1 and 2 (the player wasn't exactly that good though). It may seem inconsistent but even without cantrips and top, I've found that Counterbalance could counter many spells by just being on the board.

As far as my logic goes: as I mentioned before, I am kind of tired and realize that the Confidant/Lackey comparison was not a good comparison (as pointed out by GodZilla) and I apologize for that. I knew the difference between Confidant (Card Advantage) and Lackey (Tempo) but I guess I was trying to force my ideas through without the proper analysis. With that, I retire from my distorted reasoning until I am in full control of my thoughts (AKA when finals are over) and return to the logical reasoning I normally have.

[Nihil Credo]

From my experience, the "problem" with Counterbalance is that it's essentially a control card. It puts you into a position to gain overwhelming card advantage, not tempo. That clashes with stuff like Jotun Grunt.

If you're familiar with Standard, you should take a look at the Structure&Force deck that the Japanese made Tier 1 while both Kamigawa and Coldsnap were in the format. The deck is pure control, using as win conditions nothing but Jittes, Court Hussars, Dark Confidants, and a single Meloku. I'm going to evolve the decklist I posted above into something similar - mostly upping the amount of removal at the expense of its creature count.

It may or may not turn out to be a good deck (my hope is that it becomes a Duck Hunt version that does not autolose to Solidarity :wink:). But it definitely won't belong in any Fish thread.

[Adan]

I really hope that smiley was meant to imply irony. Meddling Mage set on High Tide is really not such a great problem for Solidarity if it is not backed up by a decend clock (or insane amounts of counterspells). I have won tons of games through Meddling Mage and multiple counters (UGw Threshold, UW Landstill post sideboard, etc.). Twincast and Reset create more than enough mana if you have 5 or more lands.

But doesn't the usual builds only run 1 copy of Twincast? And the single copy in the Sb must also first be fetched with Cunning Wish.

And you also said IF you got 5 or more lands.

I would also say that Dark Confidant draws a lot of cards in that time (with Serum Visions and Brainstorm digging deeper into your library, finding Counters, Clock and so on).

Maybe finding another Meddling Mage to prohibit Cunning Wish.

I still believe these moves are only good on paper, but can't be efficient enough. But i think we are the same opinion when I say that UWb Fish is indeed a uncomfortable matchup for Solidarity.

Anyways, I think UWb Fish already became a competitive deck here. And I think I will give it a try asap.

[Kirika]

Well been looking at this deck again since Countersliver really does bend over to mass removal and has no way to draw cards. Really miss dark confidant when playing with Slivers. I do like playing with slivers though. This is my latest list. Included my boarding strategy also cause others asking about it. Might be going with this list for GP Columbus if the testing of Survival Slivers doesn't go to well.

I really think you need to stick with 4 Bob since he is the only way to draw cards. Sure he isn't good in multiples but you always want a Bob to draw cards. Bob has the life expectance of a mayfly in spring anyway so 4 is good.

The whole Confidant, Top, Counterbalance, Trinket Mage deck is a whole different deck which deserves its own thread. Its a good deck in extended. Works really well with Togs. haven't tried it in legacy though.

Considering droping Serenity for Kataki, Serenity is good against enchantments like the one Enchantress player at my local shop tho.

Artifact
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Black
4 Dark Confidant

Blue
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle

Gold
4 Meddling Mage

White
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
4 Swords to Plowshares

Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
2 Vendalken Shackles



Sideboarding

Affinity
-3 Stifle -3 Mother of Runes
+2 Enginereed Explosives +2 Serenity +2 Vendalken Shackles
Stifle isn't too good and Mother of Runes doesn't help against artifact creatures so they go for Engineered Explosives which kills Plating and Ravager, Serenity the artifact sweeper and Vendalken Shackles which can steal their smaller dudes to chump block. Serenity + Shackles is not a combo but I'll gladly blow up my shackles to nuke their board. Considering adding Pithing Needle too cause it can disable Plating but if I Serenity it blows up and they can blow it up if they run green for Krosan Grip / Ancient Grudge. Considering Kataki instead of Serenity but affinity is prepared for Kataki and Serenity does double duty against enchantress and replenish.

Black White Discard
-1 Force of Will -1 Daze -1 Mother of Runes
+3 Duress
Duress functions as a proactive counter without disadvantages of card disadvantage or mana developent and Mother of Runes tends to die really fast in this match up so gets taken out.

Enchantress
-3 Stifle -1 Daze
+2 Serenity +2 Vendalken Shackles/Engineered Explosives
Serenity is a no brainer. Shackles depends on how critter heavy they are and if they run the untargetable Enchantress otherwise Explosives might be a better bet. If you on the draw might wanna take out the Dazes for Duress.

Goblins
-3 Daze, -1 Dark Confidant -1 Meddling Mage -1 Force of Will
+4 Engineered Plague +2 Pithing Needle
Remove Daze because it hinders the get 4 mana to play and equipe Jitte plan, 1 Confidant and 1 Mage cause they not so hot against Goblins and add in Engineered Plague the goblin killer and 2 Pithing Needle for Vials.

Iggy Pop
-4 Swords to Plowshares -1 Mother of Runes
+3 Duress +2 Pithing Needle
Remove useless creature removal and put in duress to disrupt them and Pithing Needle for their artifact mana.

Land Still
-4 Swords to Plowshares -1 Daze/Mother of Runes
+3 Duress +2 Pithing Needle
Swords isn't that good only kill factory. daze isn't so hot on the draw. Duress attacks their hand. Pithing Needle turns off Factory for good.

Madness
-3 Daze -1 Stifle
+2 Pithing Needle (name Mongrel/Aquameba) +2 Vendalken Shackles
Remove Daze and something else to put in Needle to stop their madness outlets and shackles to steal their dudes. Daze is removed cause it is important to get to 4 mana to play and equip Jitte. Might be better to take something else out instead of Stifle because GU madness runs wasteland not sure on what though.

Mirror
-4 Swords to Plowshares -3 Daze/Stifle
+2 Engineered Explosives +2 Vendalken Shackles + 3 Duress
The plan is to name Swords to Plowshares with your Meddling Mage so board yours out. Explosives on 2 is great if you get behind, Vendalken Shackles steals their guys and 3 Duress assuming they smart and play around Daze might as well take em out if you on the draw otherwise take out Stifle.

Survival
-3 Stifle -1 Daze on the draw
+2 Engineered Explosives +2 Pithing Needle
Not much to stifle other then fetches. Engineered Explosives kills Survival or guys. Pithing Needle disables Survival Shackles steals their dudes.

Threshhold
-4 Swords to Plowshares -3 Stifle/daze
+3 Duress +2 Engineered Explosives +2 Vendalken Shackles
Remove stifle cause its not that good if they play their fetches smart or Daze if you are on the draw. and swords to plowshares cause the plan is to name Swords with Mage. Duress helps attack their hand, explosives and shackles are creature control.

[Hanni]

I think I'm going try Nightmare's advice and drop a lone Swamp for another Tundra (8 fetch + 4 Tundra better supports 3 Avengers) and try this board plan vs Goblins:

-3 Daze
-2 Dark Confidant
-1 Jotun Grunt

+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pithing Needle

Now, I'm not really sure that I want to get rid of the Confidant's since they help dig for Plague/Jitte but it does reduce my need for black sources and it does die extremely easy without Mom on the board. The life loss isn't really a concern for me vs Goblins as was suggested, and having more overall men is a solid strategy, but I think I should be good with 2 Confidant. I also drop a Grunt simply because they force me to play the beatdown when I really need to play the Control until I can get Plague/Jitte.

If I see Chalice in game 2, I'll probably board in EE in game 3, dropping the other 2 Dark Confidants.

I still like having Meddling Mage in vs Goblins since it prevents them from playing Piledriver when Vial has 3+ counters and it also stops their bombs when they either don't have Vial or I have Needle on Vial.

[Citrus-God]

Goblins isn't really aggro though, it's aggro/combo/control. Normal aggro decks don't run Fact or Fictions, etc. Goblins is quite a bit different in design from normal aggro decks in that it has overwhelming amounts of card advantage.

What aggro matchups are we talking about, specifically? Faerie Stompy? Angel Stompy? Zoo? Affinity? It would be nice if you specified it more than simply "aggro" because there are different matchup percentages pre and post board for each deck.

Counterbalance is crap vs aggro... let's suppose you do cast it on turn 2. That means that instead of playing a creature, you played a worthless enchantment. What happens if they drop a guy on turn 1? What happens if Counterbalance doesn't counter the guy they drop on turn 2? I'm not quite sure how you figure, exactly, that Counterbalance is going to help you beat aggro. Aggro (aside from Goblins) doesn't beat you by playing a ton of threats and finally pushing through in the mid-late. They beat you by applying pressure that you can't deal with fast enough early on. The reason why the aggro matchup isn't nearly as bad as it seems many people think is because the deck utilizes tempo... you're going to Force/Daze/StP their first few early beats while applying a bit of you're own. During the late game, you have the advantage of card quality via cantrip, card draw via Confidant, and the other virtual card advantages the deck has.


Tempo decks lose to Midgame decks and Aggro decks in general. I know this deck can assume the Midgame role as well if needed, but I was just saying based on the metagame clock.

Now for Aggro, I dont think he meant Aggro really. Aggro like RDW, Boros Deck Wins, RG Beatz, Zoo, and etc, etc, are kinda dead in this metagame right now. It may rise back up in popularity with the list(s) that just Top 8 TML Open 2.

As for Counterbalance, I've said this once, and I'll say it again; it's not meant to be maindecked. It's a horrible Maindeck card that simply says "I lose" if used against the wrong match up. This makes Goblins less than 50/50 because you lost 1st Game, and you really cant expect yourself to fluke your way out 2nd and 3rd Game. It's still something that should be considered for the SB. No, it's not win-more, it's just better than most things considered for the SB IMO.

Also, this is how you play with Counterbalance right versus Aggro like Beatz or Zoo; You can (and probably should) drop it early to protect your creatures from a mass of removal, then you move on to playing those creatures. Also, this deck has a 1 and 2 mana curve... so does Zoo. I dont see much wrong with Counterbalance blindly Countering at the creatures Zoo plays since they basically have the same mana curve.

If you are going to side in against Aggro, these are the Aggro decks you should considering siding it against;

RG Beatz, Zoo, and 9-Land Stompy. You can still side in against Midgame decks like Threshold, Fish, The Rock, RGSA (both variants), Zilla Stompy,

Has everyone basically forgot this deck's skeleton is based off Threshold's? You run cantrips, free-counter magic, and the like. You should have an edge, then you drop it to keep them pinned down. Chances are, they will get back in the game due to your exhaust.

I know you will say something like RG Beatz is a favorable MU. I think otherwise after seeing my teammate obliterrate through his swiss rounds to the Top 8, he faced a quantity of Hanni Fish. I think the reason why his deck did well was because his deck was philosophically designed to fight Goblins and Threshold. I said Philosophically; that means it was designed solely on foiling Threshold's early game strategies and midgame advantage via Wasteland, and fast beats early game, trump card midgame. It did the same to Fish apparently.

Also, I dont seem to think Sensei's Divining Top sucked in testing. I usually like seeing it around turn 3 or so. I keep them in against Goblins due to how powerful they are combined with Shuffle effects. I basically look in every direction of my deck trying to find Engineered Plague against Goblins with the help of Cantrips and Shuffle effect. It's amazing. You dont want 3 copies unless your going to side in the 3rd Top to compliment with Counterbalance.

Hanni, I urge you to test Counterbalance. You'll be suprised. Of course, it should only be Post-Board games. It can potentially make the most one-sided games in your favor. It's flexibility throughout the format. You can side it in in the following match ups...

Angel Stompy
Fish
Threshold
Solidarity
RGSA
RGbSA
Truffle Shuffle
Wombat
Rifter
Landstill
Red Death
9-Land Stompy
Zoo
Boros Deck Wins
Red Deck Wins
RG Beatz
RGb Aggro
Zilla Stompy
Spring Tide
The Rock
The EPIC Storm

I can name more... I'm getting kinda lazy.

Also, I need opinions on my new list...


// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 16
3 Mother of Runes
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger


// Spells 27
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
3 Hydroblast
4 Engineered Plague


Goblins:

-2 Dark Confidant
-2 Counterspell
-1 Meddling Mage
-1 Jotun Grunt
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Sensei's Divining Top

+1 Pithing Needle
+3 Hydroblast
+4 Engineered Plague


Gro:

-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Plains
-1 Serum Visions

+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Counterbalance


Solidarity:

-1 Plains
-2 Pithing Needle
-4 Swords to Plowshares

+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Counterbalance
+3 Hydroblast


TES:

-1 Plains
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Umezawa's Jitte
-2 Serra Avenger

+3 Counterbalance
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Hydroblast


Tell me what you guys think. :wink:

[Caboose]

Here's the SB I'm currently working with:

4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
2 Serenity
2 Engineered Explosives



Hydro might come out for Needle if Goblins doesn't make a big showing at the GPT. But Goblins actually hasn't proven to be a problem against me when I bring in Plague + Blast.




All I know is, a lot of people are knocking this deck, and it's really unfair. This is not a Finn deck. We don't play Karakas or Stonecloaker. Also, HanniFish doesn't rely on the graveyard to make it's critters worthwhile, so it's more resiliant to hate. Confidant is stuntin' like his daddy in this deck. Also, the CA Fish has over Thresh and its non-reliance on the yard actually makes this a better choice for the GP than Thresh.

[Citrus-God]

Here's the SB I'm currently working with:

4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
2 Serenity
2 Engineered Explosives



Hydro might come out for Needle if Goblins doesn't make a big showing at the GPT. But Goblins actually hasn't proven to be a problem against me when I bring in Plague + Blast.




All I know is, a lot of people are knocking this deck, and it's really unfair. This is not a Finn deck. We don't play Karakas or Stonecloaker. Also, HanniFish doesn't rely on the graveyard to make it's critters worthwhile, so it's more resiliant to hate. Confidant is stuntin' like his daddy in this deck. Also, the CA Fish has over Thresh and its non-reliance on the yard actually makes this a better choice for the GP than Thresh.






Try this tech in your SB:

-4 Duress
-2 Engineered Explosives

+3 Counterbalance
+3 Sensei's Divining Top

You can put some Tops in the maindeck so you can free up some room in the SB for other stuff.

If you thinking about adding Needle into the deck, I think you'd rather have Disenchant instead, since it can get rid of Chalice of the Void as well as Vial.

Serenity is crazy good.

Hydroblasts are okay. I think you'd rather have a 4th Stifle over the 3rd Hydroblast just to fight Wasteland so you can constantly drop that Turn 3 Plague over and over again.

[Caboose]

I've been testing this deck extensively, and have come to the conclusion that it is the absolute shit.

Flames removed. Consider this a warning. Cool it on the personal remarks or action will be taken. - Zilla

What are you guys running in the SB? I'm currently sitting at:

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Serenity
2 Engineered Explosives

I find it to be adequate against a random meta. Thoughts?

[blitz]

I've been testing this deck extensively, and have come to the conclusion that it is the absolute shit. Even Finn could win with this deck, and as we all know, Finn winning is like a crippled man dancing.

What are you guys running in the SB? I'm currently sitting at:

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Serenity
2 Engineered Explosives

I find it to be adequate against a random meta. Thoughts?



just curious, with that SB, what are you siding out, and in what matchups?

[Mirrislegend]

Is the list on the front page the most up-to-date? If not, could someone please point me to it? And let me know if it's been updated for Hulk Flash (although this deck has a plenty good game vs that already).

[Hanni]

The list on the front page is the current version of this deck and has not been updated/changed in about a couple months. The maindeck is designed to beat Goblins while retaining strong matchups against everything else.

If you think the deck needs tweaked to beat pre-FS Hulk Flash, be my guest. I won't be changing the decklist until after FS gets released.

To beat pre-FS Hulk Flash, the current maindeck has:

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Meddling Mage

Postboard, it gains:

3 Duress

Dark Confidant will continually draw me into answers. Since this is pre-FS, we aren't dealing with Pact of Negation. If they run Daze, that may make things a little difficult, but if you consider there is no Summoner's Pact, you don't really need to fear a turn 0 or turn 1 kill. Given that, the deck easily has enough time to cast Meddling Mages or play around Daze with it's countermagic. You don't need to drop men early against Hulk... it's not like traditional combo. If you get a Mom on Meddling Mage naming Flash, it's GG.

If they run Duress instead of Daze, that might be a little more difficult. At least for game 1. Game 2 you're getting Duress yourself and you know what you're playing against so you know how to mulligan properly.

Postboard, the Duress gives the deck 17 hate cards. All this, and the deck still has a favorable Goblins matchup.

If you really fear Hulk Flash, you can go with -1 Mother, -1 Jitte, -1 Avenger for 3 maindeck Duress. I'd suggest putting those cards in the sideboard if you do. Even though Hulk Flash is fairly well known right now on The Source and such, there are still going to be tons of players running decks like Goblins. Not everyone knows about Hulk Flash, and not everyone who does know about it is taking it seriously.

I haven't made up my mind if I want to go back to MD Duress or not. I was really enjoying the fact that my Goblins matchup and other aggro matchups were so much stronger than before.

Either way... I do not believe that pre-FS Hulk Flash is going to give this deck a hard time. Post-FS, yea sure. That deck has Summoner's Pact (and Negation and Wraith) which make a tremendous difference. I think pre-FS lists are going to be quite a bit slower, which makes them less threatening, and they are still going to lose to themselves on occasion. Add in the fact that this is probably the best [realistic] deck to play against it with (when I say realistic, I mean without significantly changing), there should be little to no problems beating pre-FS Hulk Flash.

After FS is released, I'll probably put Duress MD with Leylines SB. I think anything more than that would simply be overkill and weaken my other matchups too much.

A post-FS list could look like this:

UWb Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (17)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Winter Orb
3 Umezawa's Jitte

If Goblins isn't big, the Plagues could be dropped to deal with whatever else is big in the metagame. Jitte will answer the other fishy decks and Winter Orb will deal with the control decks like Tog. EE is just a general use card and could quite possibly be dropped to deal with whatever the metagame demands. The Leylines, Jittes, and Winter Orb's seem like mainstays though. Preboard, the deck should be 60/40 against Hulk Flash. Know one probably believes that, I don't care. Post board, they bring in sideboard options and you bring in Leylines, so the matchup might stay 60/40 or go up to 70/30, I don't know.

Back to the topic at hand: for the GP, I probably won't be changing the maindeck or sideboard. If I feel that, right before the GP, that I want additional hate for Hulk, I'll drop:

-1 Mother of Runes
-1 Serra Avenger
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Duress

And thats that.

[Anarky87]

I've been playing against HF with my team and on MWS for the past day or so and I haven't been intimidated by it. I've only lost a few times because of only getting 1 land even after Brainstorm and Visions, but that happens. Otherwise I've been raping them with Mage backed up by control or Mother of Runes. They literally can't win. Confidant also just makes the game unfair. I can see the deck being pretty nasty after FS, but I'm not all that worried about it now. The MD is pretty much set to handle the deck.

[Windux]

Here is what I'm gonna play:

// Lands
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Underground Sea
4 [R] Tundra
1 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [7E] Duress
3 [FD] Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TE] Perish


Surprise, Surprise.
"This is Fish? This is shit"..No, no really.
It's really great to play in a meta with much Mirror, NQG (coming soon... with Tarmogoyf) and now Hulk Flash.

The Counterbalance is more often useful then useless.
It's like:
You hate Goblins preboard (which you do anyway),
but you love the Mirror, Combo, NQG, Suicide/Red Death/Ale even more.

I dropt Avenger due you don't even need him. Why? You just play the TMWA-tactic:
You don't want to win, you want to ping your opponent until he get's crazy and scoops (or beaten by Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage ;P ).
I'm just so happy with this list. You don't have to fear against Hulk Flash and your matchup against nearly every deck is not increased ("nearly every != Goblins").

[Hanni]

Windux, is that your GP list? Regardless of the hype of Hulk Flash, there will be aggro and there will be Goblins.


You hate Goblins preboard (which you do anyway),

Actually, I love playing against Goblins. I haven't lost a match to Goblins with Fish since October. Since then, the extra Mom, Jitte, Avenger, and Stifles have seriously improved my Goblins matchup. Preboard is pretty good actually, the matchup is no less than 50/50. Postboard the matchup goes up as much as 70/30. I've had games against Goblins where I win game 1, lose game 2, and win game 2. I wouldn't detune my Goblins matchup for the GP simply because it will still be played, regardless if Hulk Flash gets played.

Post-FS, I still don't think the Counterbalances are worth it. They are too slow and you don't have that kind of time against Hulk Flash. They are obviously great vs the mirror matches but I think, if anything, they'd be better as a sideboard option. You also run only 14 creatures to support Jitte, 3 of them being Mother of Runes. I'm not quite sure if this is enough or not.

The rest of the deck looks very solid.

[noobslayer]

As long as you're playing Mother of Runes, and cost efficiently large bodies, worship seems like it could be an option for consideration. Granted you dn't have goblin lackey, but I think you can fairly manage.

[Citrus-God]

Here is what I'm gonna play:

// Lands
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Underground Sea
4 [R] Tundra
1 [b] Scrubland

// Creatures
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [7E] Duress
3 [FD] Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TE] Perish


I really want to see a 3rd Engineered Explosives in the board to fight Chalice of the Void. Disenchant is good as well for fighting AEther Vial, and Chalice of the Void from Goblin's side. You should cut probably

Cut: 2 Perishes, 1 Pithing Needle
For: 1 Engineered Explosives, 2 Disenchant

I really want you opinions on those SB changes.



Surprise, Surprise.
"This is Fish? This is shit"..No, no really.
It's really great to play in a meta with much Mirror, NQG (coming soon... with Tarmogoyf) and now Hulk Flash.


I heard people say I should've deserved that win against WUb Fish with UGw Threshold, because Fish is a bad deck.... I disagreed with them. I got lucky and got Enforcers each game with TONS of counters I topdecked to keep him safe. I really shouldnt have deserved that game.



The Counterbalance is more often useful then useless.
It's like:
You hate Goblins preboard (which you do anyway),
but you love the Mirror, Combo, NQG, Suicide/Red Death/Ale even more.


It's a great card. I'm glad you and Tao love it. I'm not sold on it pre-board, but with HF, it should be considered.

[quot]I dropt Avenger due you don't even need him. Why? You just play the TMWA-tactic:
You don't want to win, you want to ping your opponent until he get's crazy and scoops (or beaten by Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage ;P ).
I'm just so happy with this list. You don't have to fear against Hulk Flash and your matchup against nearly every deck is not increased ("nearly every != Goblins").[/quote]

TMWA is a great deck. It's great that you run the Soft lock and based it off that deck's strategy. When I play WUb Fish, I think of Marc Perez's Ur Fish that he won with, but with different tempo cards instead.



Post-FS, I still don't think the Counterbalances are worth it. They are too slow and you don't have that kind of time against Hulk Flash.

Doesnt matter. They draw better than you anyways with like 4 Scrolls, 4 Mystical Tutors, 0-4 Cunning Wish, and 3-4 Flashes. Counterbalance allows you to win those attrition wars, because both of you will exhaust eachother at that point.


They are obviously great vs the mirror matches but I think, if anything, they'd be better as a sideboard option.

Or you could've agreed with what I said earlier about Couterbalance, which is exactly what I stated.


You also run only 14 creatures to support Jitte, 3 of them being Mother of Runes. I'm not quite sure if this is enough or not.


I know Lenny Thao who happens to be a local player did well with just 14 creatures. Instead of Grunt, he ran Negator though. He was probably th bes Fish player I've ever seen. When I play at thoe monthly Monster Den tournaments, I think he is the one person I really dont want to play against.

[Hanni]

Or you could've agreed with what I said earlier about Couterbalance, which is exactly what I stated.

I was talking about in a post-FS Hulk Flash meta filled with tons of Fish. I would never run, SB or MD, Counterbalance in Fish before this whole Hulk Flash fiasco... and I'm not sure if I would even run them then (if you look at the list I presented).


Doesnt matter. They draw better than you anyways with like 4 Scrolls, 4 Mystical Tutors, 0-4 Cunning Wish, and 3-4 Flashes. Counterbalance allows you to win those attrition wars, because both of you will exhaust eachother at that point.

How will I lose attrition wars? I'm only going to lose if they race me before I can go anything. If the match lasts longer than a few turns, there is little chance that I lose the attrition war. They exhaust their resources on trying to piece together combo cards (especially with Mystical Tutor), and I answer them. If it comes down to attrition, I don't see how they will exhaust me. I'm running 22 disruption cards postboard (post FS):

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Duress
4 Meddling Mage
4 Leyline of the Void

Not only that, I'm running Dark Confidant. Confidant easily out gases them, even if I were to run less disruption or whatever. I'd say that my 8 cantrip about matches there attempts to keep fueled. Not only that, but they only have so long to recover the exhaustion war before they die from a clock. So if you're talking about exhaustion, Counterbalance is highly uneccessary. The only time Hulk Flash is going to steal wins is when they win the early game race, either by going before I can do anything or by going off early and protecting it, which Counterbalance will do nothing for.

Counterbalance would only be truly strong for the Fish mirror, and that will most likely be highly relevant. In that case, it's SB material. We do not yet know what all else will be present in the metagame.

[Windux]

I do not drop a so strong card like Counterbalance, only because I fear of Goblins.
What is when I play against Goblins? At least 1 Counterbalance I can shuffle away easily, without losing any on consistancy.

I know how good Avenger is against Goblins, but since they are running 8 Disruptionlands it's not that quite possible to cast Avenger early.

The reason why I run Perish is, because they run alot of NQG here.

And about Disenchant vs Vial:
I'm playing Needle. Needle shuts down Vial, Wasteland, Port, SCG, Kiki-Jiki, Gempalm Incinerator, Engineered Explosives

And Disenchant? Explosives (if they drop it unsafe), Pillar (which is run here instead of Chalice. This is not America ;P ) and VIal

[Citrus-God]

How will I lose attrition wars? I'm only going to lose if they race me before I can go anything. If the match lasts longer than a few turns, there is little chance that I lose the attrition war. They exhaust their resources on trying to piece together combo cards (especially with Mystical Tutor), and I answer them. If it comes down to attrition, I don't see how they will exhaust me. I'm running 22 disruption cards postboard (post FS):

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Duress
4 Meddling Mage
4 Leyline of the Void

They run 8 pitch Counters, 4 Duress, 6-8 Tutors, and 4 Flashes. The big difference they can do this Turn 0 or Turn 1. If it does last long, they still have one of the greatest topdeck capabilities I have ever seen in this format.


Not only that, I'm running Dark Confidant. Confidant easily out gases them, even if I were to run less disruption or whatever. I'd say that my 8 cantrip about matches there attempts to keep fueled. Not only that, but they only have so long to recover the exhaustion war before they die from a clock. So if you're talking about exhaustion, Counterbalance is highly uneccessary. The only time Hulk Flash is going to steal wins is when they win the early game race, either by going before I can do anything or by going off early and protecting it, which Counterbalance will do nothing for.

If your relying on your Post-Board games, it's going to be 50/50 if they're in your favor Post-Board. Dark Confidant can draw you dead sometimes, but drawing into some proactive disruption can steal games, like Meddling Mage and Duress. I was never into reactive disruption.

Hulk Flash can still win the game against control decks, even outside of the early because of how powerful the quality of their cards are. If they play against Control, they'll just sit back and Scroll for FoWs, and Mystical Tutors for Duresses. Once they see you in a bad position, they'll go all-in against you. Technically, you cant claim HF has to go big or go home, because the other builds I've seen can still protect it's combo.


Counterbalance would only be truly strong for the Fish mirror, and that will most likely be highly relevant. In that case, it's SB material. We do not yet know what all else will be present in the metagame.

Truely? As in, only for the Fish mirror? I won games against Rifter and Truffle Shuffle before. Of course, they're highly revelent now. I can name more, but I'm feeling soo lazy right now to keep naming them. I mean, I won so many games with Counterbalance and sided in against every match-up but Goblins, everyone questions me if I'm going to run them maindeck.

[Hanni]

Well Windux, I don't know what your meta looks like so changes based on meta make sense. For a meta with Goblins and other aggro, Avenger is extremely strong, even through Port/Wasteland. Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger, and Umezawa's Jitte are the main tools that allow me to win the Goblins matchup game 1 and ensure that I don't lose games 2 and 3 often.

If your meta lacks Goblins and other aggro but is infested with combo and Thresh, Counterbalance seems like a perfect solution. The meta in America, before Hulk Flash, was simply way too random for Counterbalance... especially when the card typically improved already good matchups.

I don't think Counterbalance is good against Hulk Flash. It's simply too slow.

Now that Hulk Flash is around, Counterbalance will probably be strong against the other decks that will exist in the meta to beat Hulk Flash.

I do not think that Hulk Flash, before Future Sight, is strong enough to force a complete overhaul to the deck.

After Future Sight, the deck will need overhauled. The meta will shift, and cards that were strong before won't necessarily be strong after. Tuning for Hulk Flash itself doesn't seem that critical, since the deck should still put up good numbers against it simply by running maindeck Duress.

[Citrus-God]

I do not drop a so strong card like Counterbalance, only because I fear of Goblins.
What is when I play against Goblins? At least 1 Counterbalance I can shuffle away easily, without losing any on consistancy.

You do run Top and cantrips to deny drawing into them.


I know how good Avenger is against Goblins, but since they are running 8 Disruptionlands it's not that quite possible to cast Avenger early.I always used Sword of Fire and Ice agaisnt Goblins over Jitte. Of course, that's just me...


The reason why I run Perish is, because they run alot of NQG here.
It does kill Mystic Enforcer....


And about Disenchant vs Vial:
I'm playing Needle. Needle shuts down Vial, Wasteland, Port, SCG, Kiki-Jiki, Gempalm Incinerator, Engineered ExplosivesGempalm is a threat. I always did like the European lists with Engineered Explosives...


And Disenchant? Explosives (if they drop it unsafe), Pillar (which is run here instead of Chalice. This is not America ;P ) and VIalThank god. Chalice is a hell to deal with from my point. I hevnt played against Goblins with Chalice yet.... most of them went for the 4 REB, 4 Crypt plan here. If not, 2 of each card....

[Citrus-God]

If your meta lacks Goblins and other aggro but is infested with combo and Thresh, Counterbalance seems like a perfect solution. The meta in America, before Hulk Flash, was simply way too random for Counterbalance... especially when the card typically improved already good matchups.So you call Truffle Shuffle, Rifter, The Rock, Angel Stompy, Landstill, TES, Red Death, and Psychatog good match-ups? In match-ups where all your disruption is only marginal, the best way to fight them is use different sources of card advantage that slows them down and give you card advantage in the process. Dark Confidant works here, but dies to Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God, Damnation, Nevinyrral's Disk, Engineered Explosives, and get's shut down by Humility good? I'm sorry, if you dont get Confidant to resolve, your fighting with synthetic card advantage.


I don't think Counterbalance is good against Hulk Flash. It's simply too slow.I also realize people make overrated cards look underrated. Then again, this is soemthing to keep them from getting back in the game. They will get back in the game.



Now that Hulk Flash is around, Counterbalance will probably be strong against the other decks that will exist in the meta to beat Hulk Flash. That's a good way to see it's use, but it's still good against Hulk Flash as well.


I do not think that Hulk Flash, before Future Sight, is strong enough to force a complete overhaul to the deck. Future Sight is probably the reason why the deck is insane right now. Then again, it still would've been insane pre-Future Sight if designed right.


After Future Sight, the deck will need overhauled. The meta will shift, and cards that were strong before won't necessarily be strong after. Tuning for Hulk Flash itself doesn't seem that critical, since the deck should still put up good numbers against it simply by running maindeck Duress.Not to mention it's also the fastest deck in 1.5 to find Force of Will.

[Hanni]

Anti-American, it seems like I always hit a sore spot when I explain why I don't like your favorite card. All biases aside:

Counterbalance is not strong in most of the matchups you listed. While it may have some sort of use against some of them, that doesn't mean it's better than other cards available.

How is Counterbalance going to be good against Truffle Shuffle? They are running a ton of cards way beyond the 1cc-2cc spell range of this deck. Vindicate, Deed, Witness, so on and so forth. It may hit a few of their spells but that's hardly worth trying to get the card to work. There are much stronger options than trying to fit a 5+ card combo. Sorry.

I can apply similar reasons why the card won't be strong against the other matchups you listed. Additionally... since when has Tog been a metagame concern that forces me to want to have Counterbalance in the 75 cards of my deck?

Since when has TES been a bad matchup for Fish to warrant running a card for it? Improving good matchups while weaker matchups get worse seems retarded. My current maindeck beats Goblins and still beats TES. Why would I change it?

I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but Counterbalance isn't needed in this deck unless you're playing in a specific metagame that warrants its inclusion. It may be good in Threshold but it's not needed in here... at least it wasn't. I still wouldn't advise going to the GP with it, but after Future Sight it may be extremely strong, as I've said.

However, the card is not strong against Hulk Flash. It is too slow.

[Citrus-God]

Anti-American, it seems like I always hit a sore spot when I explain why I don't like your favorite card. All biases aside:

Actually I wasnt on tilt. I'm still throwing good reasoning out there. Besides, I'm giving you a view from my perspective of why I run Counterbalance. I could easily stop here in our discussion, but then they'll only see your side of the arguement if I stop. I'd prefer to keep going.



Counterbalance is not strong in most of the matchups you listed. While it may have some sort of use against some of them, that doesn't mean it's better than other cards available.

Armageddon is good against most of those decks, but it's narrow. I like Counterbalance because it wins. It's flexible and



How is Counterbalance going to be good against Truffle Shuffle? They are running a ton of cards way beyond the 1cc-2cc spell range of this deck. Vindicate, Deed, Witness, so on and so forth. It may hit a few of their spells but that's hardly worth trying to get the card to work. There are much stronger options than trying to fit a 5+ card combo. Sorry.

Force of Will. Counterbalance also protects your hand from Disruption that they try and throw at you. As for Vindicate, Deed, and Witness; Vindicate you really shouldnt care about honest, Deed should've been answered by Needle, and Witness is is going to resolve just to get a really bad piece of targeted removal back.


I can apply similar reasons why the card won't be strong against the other matchups you listed. Additionally... since when has Tog been a metagame concern that forces me to want to have Counterbalance in the 75 cards of my deck?

Hardly. It's just that theoretically, this deck loses to raw card advantage.


Since when has TES been a bad matchup for Fish to warrant running a card for it? Improving good matchups while weaker matchups get worse seems retarded. My current maindeck beats Goblins and still beats TES. Why would I change it?

Bryant Cook fought through Hanni Fish with ease. My teammate Will Setzer can easily fight through Hanni Fish with ease. I'm saying that it's hard for your deck to through EtW, especially with Orim's Chant now in the maindeck.


I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but Counterbalance isn't needed in this deck unless you're playing in a specific metagame that warrants its inclusion. It may be good in Threshold but it's not needed in here... at least it wasn't. I still wouldn't advise going to the GP with it, but after Future Sight it may be extremely strong, as I've said.

I agree. It's only good as a metagame option, but this should've been mentioned a long time ago before Hulk Flash.


However, the card is not strong against Hulk Flash. It is too slow.

umm... it's hand dependent really.

[Hanni]

Hardly. It's just that theoretically, this deck loses to raw card advantage.


My Landstill matchup is actually pretty solid. I had to face Landstill at The Meandeck Open and went 1-1 against it. At the GPT, I had to face Landstill in round 1 and 2. Round 1 I went 1-1 against it and Round 2 I went 2-1 against it.

Decks that win by excessive card advantage usually require heavy mana investments. Winter Orb is far stronger against these decks than Counterbalance is... and if you notice, I have 2 Winter Orb in my sideboard. It's also alot easier to fit in the deck than 2-3 Top and 3 Counterbalance.


Bryant Cook fought through Hanni Fish with ease. My teammate Will Setzer can easily fight through Hanni Fish with ease. I'm saying that it's hard for your deck to through EtW, especially with Orim's Chant now in the maindeck.


What kind of list was the Fish player using and how good was that player with Fish? You're saying that the creator of TES, who obviously knows how to play the deck in and out, beat a player using Fish. Also, it's possible to lose to TES with Fish. The matchup isn't 100/0. Still, the matchup is favorable for the Fish player, MD Chants or no. With ease? Hardly. I'm sure he just walked all over the Fish player like the Fish player was playing Elves, right? EtW is also not very scary. The deck may have problems with it preboard, but definitely not postboard. Aside from the 3 Stifle, the deck has access to up to 6 cards... 4 Plague and 2 EE. Usually, I only bring in 2 of each. I find the matchup favorable, as I've only ever lost to TES with Fish a few times. The again, my opponent's may have been bad. If I were to play Bryant, I'm fairly sure I'd still find the matchup favorable. Is there anything odd about the fact that Fish has a good Tendrils combo matchup? I would hope not.

[Windux]

CB is alot more useful then Winter Orb is.

If you have 1cc and 2cc in the early games, you can stall for turns.
And if you have 2cc and 5cc in your top, you just win the game, because each counter he plays costs 2cmc or a handcard.
You just pay 1 each time to win the counterwar.

[Citrus-God]

My Landstill matchup is actually pretty solid. I had to face Landstill at The Meandeck Open and went 1-1 against it. At the GPT, I had to face Landstill in round 1 and 2. Round 1 I went 1-1 against it and Round 2 I went 2-1 against it.

I random Stifle on a fetchland can screw BHWC Landstill over. The UWg builds are far more consistent with it's mana base, as well as more board sweepers for you to deal with.


Decks that win by excessive card advantage usually require heavy mana investments. Winter Orb is far stronger against these decks than Counterbalance is... and if you notice, I have 2 Winter Orb in my sideboard. It's also alot easier to fit in the deck than 2-3 Top and 3 Counterbalance.

But it's the fact you only side Winter Orb against Control decks... Counterbalance is good against both Control, and Combo as well. It's also best in match ups of attrition, like the Aggro-Control mirror and Control match ups. I doubt you would side something like Winter Orb in against Threshold. Winter Orb does answer decks like Landstill and Life from the Loam quite nicely, but it can be answered as well on their side. Counterbalance at least protects itself.


What kind of list was the Fish player using and how good was that player with Fish? You're saying that the creator of TES, who obviously knows how to play the deck in and out, beat a player using Fish.

It was probably Nightmare's list that he played against.



Also, it's possible to lose to TES with Fish. The matchup isn't 100/0. Still, the matchup is favorable for the Fish player, MD Chants or no. With ease?

I tend to see it as 50/50 from testing with Maindecked Chants. It keeps reactive cards from interacting with TES. Proactive cards like Meddling Mage doesnt really wreck TES. If it resolves one of it's anti-reactive disruption cards like Swarms or Chant, it will walk all over you.... well, not walk all over, but an EtW for 12 should be about right.


Hardly. I'm sure he just walked all over the Fish player like the Fish player was playing Elves, right? EtW is also not very scary. The deck may have problems with it preboard, but definitely not postboard.

Post-Board gets the TES player more Chants. But then again, the only thing the deck is scared of from your side are Duress and Meddling Mage.


Aside from the 3 Stifle, the deck has access to up to 6 cards... 4 Plague and 2 EE. Usually, I only bring in 2 of each. I find the matchup favorable, as I've only ever lost to TES with Fish a few times. The again, my opponent's may have been bad. If I were to play Bryant, I'm fairly sure I'd still find the matchup favorable. Is there anything odd about the fact that Fish has a good Tendrils combo matchup? I would hope not.

It's natural for Fish to have a good Tendrils match-up outside of T1. Also, I think it's the right move not to board in the full set of Plagues. The fact they're more Tendrils reliant Post-Board means that they will much rather have their Chants or Swarms to resolve in this game. If you play Plague in a nuetral position, call Xantid Swarm. I remember I stole a game or two by calling Insect with Plague and a Mage on Chant, meanwhile Confidant draws into more proactive disruption and other effective pieces of disruption as well.

[Hanni]

But it's the fact you only side Winter Orb against Control decks...

No, actually. I bring in 3 Duress, 2 Winter Orb, and even 2 Pithing Needle in some cases.

I don't feel that I need the additional strength of Counterbalance for my Threshold matchup, and I already do bring in sideboard cards.

Winter Orb can be answered on their side, but it's very difficult for them to do so when they can only untap 1 land per turn. Typically, by the time they have enough mana to Deed for 2, I have a strong hand built up that can deal with it (Daze, Stifle, Force, whatever). Their Counterspells and such aren't effective when they don't have UU to cast them. They also cannot sculpt their hand good with cards like Fact or Fiction or cycling lands, so more often than not my hand sculpted from cantrips is going to have much better answers under an Orb. So in a sense, Winter Orb protects itself too. A resolved Orb is almost always GG against Control decks or similar decks that rely on lots of mana to out-resource me with card advantage.

As far as TES goes, I still find Meddling Mage awesome in this matchup. The problem many players have is not knowing what to name against TES. Xantid Swarm hardly scares me when I run 4 StP among other answers, and much less so when I bring in even more answers that also answer EtW. Orim's Chant is also not a huge issue... it's very strong for them, but they have 4 Chant's to compare to my whole suite of disruption: 4 FoW, 3 Daze, 3 Stifle, 3 Duress, and 4 Mage. 17 disruption spells, outside of cards like EE and Plague, to deal with, what, 4 Chants? What would be really mean is if I boarded Chant's of my own and cut them off mid combo. However, I've found this matchup time and time again to be far better than 50/50 preboard and postboard. Maybe you haven't done that well vs TES with Fish, but I have.

[Citrus-God]

No, actually. I bring in 3 Duress, 2 Winter Orb, and even 2 Pithing Needle in some cases.

In 2-4 Turns, the Landstill play will have 4 untapped lands for Wrath of God. Armageddon would be better against them, since it forces them to find land. I never liked Winter Orb at all to tell the truth.


I don't feel that I need the additional strength of Counterbalance for my Threshold matchup, and I already do bring in sideboard cards.

The additional strength from Counterbalance isnt win-more. When you play Counterbalance, you only expect it to be good against certain decks in the metagame. I expect it to be sided in against everything else in the metagame that isnt Chalice-based or Vial Goblins.


Winter Orb can be answered on their side, but it's very difficult for them to do so when they can only untap 1 land per turn.

Yes, but that's only BHWC Landstill that takes it hard. Versus the newer UWg Landstill builds, they will find land to go along with their untapped ones, just to play Wrath, Humility, Engineered Explosives, or Disenchant. Deed says add more mana for me to spend, WoG says NOW! EE is like Deed, but can be activated in a turn.


Typically, by the time they have enough mana to Deed for 2, I have a strong hand built up that can deal with it (Daze, Stifle, Force, whatever).

Daze and FoW yes, Stifle only hits Deed and EE, but not WoG and Humility.



Their Counterspells and such aren't effective when they don't have UU to cast them.

They usually dont tap out as often as they usually do, because Landstill is a reactive deck. So the only way Winter Orb is good is by forcing them to tap out in a counterwar, and then playing the Orb. Armageddon just makes them screw themselves over right there. With Winter Orb, they still have some leverage.


They also cannot sculpt their hand good with cards like Fact or Fiction or cycling lands, so more often than not my hand sculpted from cantrips is going to have much better answers under an Orb. So in a sense, Winter Orb protects itself too. A resolved Orb is almost always GG against Control decks or similar decks that rely on lots of mana to out-resource me with card advantage.

You have to spend the cards you find to answer them. Counterbalance does everything on it's own, and the cards you drew as cards to back up Counterbalance. In a way, you get both a Tempo advantage and Card Advantage, whereas Winter Orb only gives you Tempo advantage.


As far as TES goes, I still find Meddling Mage awesome in this matchup. The problem many players have is not knowing what to name against TES. Xantid Swarm hardly scares me when I run 4 StP among other answers, and much less so when I bring in even more answers that also answer EtW. Orim's Chant is also not a huge issue... it's very strong for them, but they have 4 Chant's to compare to my whole suite of disruption: 4 FoW, 3 Daze, 3 Stifle, 3 Duress, and 4 Mage. 17 disruption spells, outside of cards like EE and Plague, to deal with, what, 4 Chants? What would be really mean is if I boarded Chant's of my own and cut them off mid combo. However, I've found this matchup time and time again to be far better than 50/50 preboard and postboard. Maybe you haven't done that well vs TES with Fish, but I have.


So what are the chances of you drawing a Swords to Plowshares against a Swarm? Even if you do answer Swarm, you still have to deal with Confidant. Also, if you have 17 disruption cards, then theres

4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Burning Wish

Is that close enough? Those are just the control cards, look at their threat density now.

And yes, I have done well against TES, but that's with a different build than yours. I really havent tested your build against them yet, but they seem to do well with their playtesting against other people.

[Hanni]

Well, I've yet to play against a Landstill list that wasn't 4c. There has been tons of Landstill around Ohio lately, but it's all been 4c. I figure it's probably the most popular variant anyway. I haven't tested against the other Landstill versions either.

My point wasn't meant to be about whether or not Winter Orb was stronger than Counterbalance against control decks. It was meant to be that when I've yet to lose a matchup to a control deck when I've resolved Winter Orb. Mainly Landstill, since it's the control deck I've seen and played against the most, the matchup goes back and forth alot. Game 1 is roughly 50/50, as I've won and lost game 1's about that often, and games 2 and 3 get a little better usually.

My other point was that it's alot easier to fit in 2 Winter Orb in the sideboard than try to fit the Counterbalance engine.

I'm still not sure how Counterbalance answers cards like WoG or Humility anyway.

Winter Orb is also really good at cutting off the card advantage engine. Fact or Fiction, etc. It's not that strong against Standstill, but it at least gives me the inevitability of knowing that if I do have a guy down, they won't be dropping manlands and attacking right away.

Fish is mainly a tempo deck, where tempo elements usually have problems with card advantage decks. Winter Orb restores my lost tempo, rather than trying to compete with card advantage, and puts me back in a good spot.

I'm not saying Counterbalance isn't good against control. I'm saying that I've been using Winter Orb to good success and I will continue to do so.

As far as the whole TES beating Fish debate, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't really want to go into details on the topic. If players like Bryant beat Fish, I wish him the best of luck with his performance with the deck. If I get paired against TES, I'll be happy.

[Citrus-God]

Well, I've yet to play against a Landstill list that wasn't 4c. There has been tons of Landstill around Ohio lately, but it's all been 4c. I figure it's probably the most popular variant anyway. I haven't tested against the other Landstill versions either.

I never really liked the 4c version. Test against Nightmare's list. It's probably one of the best lists I've seen in action in awhile.


My point wasn't mean to be about whether or not Winter Orb was stronger than Counterbalance against control decks. It was meant to be that when I've yet to lose a matchup to a control deck when I've resolved Winter Orb. Mainly Landstill, since it's the control deck I've seen and played against the most, the matchup goes back and forth alot. Game 1 is roughly 50/50, as I've won and lost game 1's about that often, and games 2 and 3 get a little better usually.

They have an awful Sideboard against you usually. If you board in 3 Vindcates and play LD with 4c Landstill, it'll just roll over you.



My other point was that it's alot easier to fit in 2 Winter Orb in the sideboard than try to fit the Counterbalance engine.


Counterbalance only needs 4 cards.... and it's very flexible. I'm sure that's the reason why Threshold players are running it, otherwise they would've switched to this a long time ago.



I'm still not sure how Counterbalance answers cards like WoG or Humility anyway.


No, it helps you win Counter wars against board sweepers, and Sensei's Divining Top provides you with consistent card quality.



Winter Orb is also really good at cutting off the card advantage engine. Fact or Fiction, etc. It's not that strong against Standstill, but it at least gives me the inevitability of knowing that if I do have a guy down, they won't be dropping manlands and attacking right away.

FoF is usually a really bad card to sculpt your hand with without Brainstorm in the deck, since FoF only gives them quantity, as quality means they have to sacrifice quantity. Counterbalcne keeps them from making their hands better after a FoF, as Brainstorm is the only thing that's helping it.

Manlands are weak, even Monasteries are weak. Mother of Runes, Jitte, and Needle take care of them already for you.



Fish is mainly a tempo deck, where tempo elements usually have problems with card advantage decks. Winter Orb restores my lost tempo, rather than trying to compete with card advantage, and puts me back in a good spot.

Not all of them, it's just decks like this generally. I dont see Feinstein Fish sucking against Meandeck Gifts and Control Slaver in T1. It sacrifices Card Advantage for disurption (or card quality if you will) and a clock. It wins because it keeps them off Tempo, yes, but in a format like 1.5, mana bases are more stable than T1's. So basically against control decks, you are actually playing to get control of the board, not gain card advantage. Card advantage is one way it wins, but keeps them from resolving a board sweeper is the way you win. Winter Orb is good, but again, Armageddon is better here at this job.



I'm not saying Counterbalance isn't good against control. I'm saying that I've been using Winter Orb to good success and I will continue to do so.


I realize Counterbalance is good in Threshold because it's skeleton and mana curve is much different from Fish's. Threshold uses more higher board quality threats and reactive disruption. This deck actually makes Counterbalance a fierce clock. Fish plays like TMWA where it keeps going until the opponent gives up to a critical mass of threats. Threshold goes for the throat while the opponent is in exhaust.


As far as the whole TES beating Fish debate, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't really want to go into details on the topic. If players like Bryant beat Fish, I wish him the best of luck with his performance with the deck. If I get paired against TES, I'll be happy.

I guess I should accept this as well then.

[Hanni]

I think it's very difficult to bring in Vintage examples. Control decks like Gifts play a completely different game than control decks like Landstill. Landstill is a board control deck with mass removal for creatures. Similarly, Legacy Fish plays very differently from the way Vintage Fish decks do.

As far as Armageddons vs Winter Orb goes, I like Winter Orb better. I can drop it turn 2 as opposed to turn 4+. I also have to hold a land or two back in hand after I cast Armageddon, so it takes a while to ramp up that high. If they have a Crucible on the table, Armageddon becomes worthless. With Winter Orb, it hardly effects me at all and it hurts them alot. I like the fact that it's virtual.

[Citrus-God]

I think it's very difficult to bring in Vintage examples. Control decks like Gifts play a completely different game than control decks like Landstill. Landstill is a board control deck with mass removal for creatures. Similarly, Legacy Fish plays very differently from the way Vintage Fish decks do.

I see your deck very much alike Parc Perez's Ur Fish. You both combine constant card draw to abuse a mix of proactive and reactive disruption.

I brought up UW Fish because of it's philosophy, not the example really. It's a deck that wants to jump of out nowhere, take everything away from them, and beating them as badly as possible.


As far as Armageddons vs Winter Orb goes, I like Winter Orb better. I can drop it turn 2 as opposed to turn 4+. I also have to hold a land or two back in hand after I cast Armageddon, so it takes a while to ramp up that high. If they have a Crucible on the table, Armageddon becomes worthless. With Winter Orb, it hardly effects me at all and it hurts them alot. I like the fact that it's virtual.

You run it as a 2-of. I see it hard to get it in the opening hand. Also, if Crucible resolves, your losing anyway to the Wasteland lock. If you play Geddon with a Grunt or a Confidant active, your in very good shape. Then again, it's going into the discussion of whether you want to win small, or go big or go home...

[Hanni]

After playtesting a bit with IBA, and considering his list (and similar lists) will probably be the most popular GP list for Hulk Flash, I've decided to retweak the deck a little. The deck still retains a solid matchup against Goblins but adds alot of additional strength against U/B Hulk Flash. I lose the Winter Orb's in the sideboard against Control matchups, but it had to be done. I've still performed well against 4c Landstill in the past without Winter Orb (either winning in game 1 or not drawing it postboard) and hopefully I don't run into alot of Control decks.

The new proposed version of U/W/b Fish, which I will play at the GP and after Future Sight gets released until the Hulk Flash combo gets banned:

U/W/b Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (16)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte

The maindeck should look familiar: it's the MD I used to run for the longest time before deciding to drop the Duress to make my game 1 Goblins matchup more favorable. This deck still has a favorable Goblins matchup and I think that's one of the biggest strengths this deck has going into the GP. Most of the decks designed to beat Flash are going to have a horrendous Goblins matchup. This deck should beat Flash without sacrificing its Goblins matchup.

I'm wondering if maybe Pithing Needle could be dropped for the Winter Orb's. The reason I'm leaving it in there for now is because it comes in against Goblins, decks with Deed (where Orb would be better), and the Kiki version of Hulk Flash. I may decide to drop 2 Needle for 2 Orb depending.

I like the Vindicates in there. There will probably be lots of Chalice and Vindicate is pretty amazing at answering Chalice. Vindicate is also amazing against Thresh. It's strong vs Faerie Stompy, it answers the Dystopia's that B/x brings in, etc.

My current SB plan vs Hulk Flash:

-1 Mother of Runes
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Leyline of the Void
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

My current SB plan vs Thresh:

-4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Vindicate
+2 Engineered Explosives

My current SB plan vs Goblins:

-1 Dark Confidant
-3 Daze
-3 Duress
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

Enjoy.

[umbowta]

Hanni, your proposed list is really close to what I ran yesterday in testing against FS-Protean Flash (DotV w/wall and marauder version). I ran

-1 Stifle
-1 Serra Avenger
+1 Daze
+1 Extirpate (with 2 more in the board)

Preboard was awful. I went about 30/70 losing to raw speed when on the draw and FoW/PoN when on the play. The games I won were strictly when I was on the play. Resolving early Duress and having Mage or Stifle was the key.

Postboard was close to 50/50, maybe 55/45, but far from good. Extirpating either Flash or DotV was GG but getting them into the yard was problematic without a turn one Duress. Brainstorm hiding shit in response to Duress is infuriating. Getting DotV into the yard is almost impossible. It has to be countered when cast, killed in combat (not likely) or by Jitte counters.

I hate mindless, instant, :1::u:, 2 card combo decks.

[dre4m]

Hanni, your proposed list is really close to what I ran yesterday in testing against FS-Protean Flash (DotV w/wall and marauder version). I ran

-1 Stifle
-1 Serra Avenger
+1 Daze
+1 Extirpate (with 2 more in the board)

Preboard was awful. I went about 30/70 losing to raw speed when on the draw and FoW/PoN when on the play. The games I won were strictly when I was on the play. Resolving early Duress and having Mage or Stifle was the key.

Postboard was close to 50/50, maybe 55/45, but far from good. Extirpating either Flash or DotV was GG but getting them into the yard was problematic without a turn one Duress. Brainstorm hiding shit in response to Duress is infuriating. Getting DotV into the yard is almost impossible. It has to be countered when cast, killed in combat (not likely) or by Jitte counters.

I hate mindless, instant, :1::u:, 2 card combo decks.

A) You should have called me to test with you.

B)After FS Flash becomes the true nut high, but it is more than likely to be banned before it gains the use of Pacts. Killing Disciple once they combo off won't do anything unless it was in play before they cast Flash. Active Jitte is much better vs the Carrion Feeder version. In the event that Flash remains unbanned, Hannifish will either need maindeck Leylines or maindeck Extirpates to be a sufficient hoser. For now, however, I am testing for GP: Colombus only, as I doubt that Flash will remain playable afterwords.

[umbowta]

A) You should have called me to test with you.
I'll PM you. Now that the semester is over we should be able to sit down to play.


Killing Disciple once they combo off won't do anything unless it was in play before they cast Flash. Active Jitte is much better vs the Carrion Feeder version. In the event that Flash remains unbanned, Hannifish will either need maindeck Leylines or maindeck Extirpates to be a sufficient hoser. For now, however, I am testing for GP: Colombus only, as I doubt that Flash will remain playable afterwords.You're right. Killing a disciple is entirely dependent on them being forced into playing one or two that they have drawn.

If Flash remains unbanned, which it won't imho, then being forced into suboptimal maindeck choices is hardly the direction I'll take. I don't think that maindecking more than two Extirpate is a good idea. The four-of Leyline is out of the question except in the board. More likely is a side step into a more counter heavy Landstill. With the entire Aggro archtype out of the way, Landstill has a pretty good shot at being the control deck of choice.

[dre4m]

I hate playing against Landstill almost as much as I hate playing against Flash Hulk, so we must all pray and send e-mails to Wizards until they see the light in terms of Flash. Maindeck Leyline is actually okay more than you'd think, against Thresh, Survival variants, 43land, IGGy Pop, the occasional Reanimator, and of course Flash. I dont' think I'd play hannifish either, though, because Landstill or BBS would seem to be far superior.

[Hanni]

I dont' think I'd play hannifish either, though, because Landstill or BBS would seem to be far superior.

The thing about Hulk Flash is, they can wait to go off for as long as they want. They will just continue to rip your hand apart with discard, build up a counterspell or two, and then eventually go off when they are in the clear. With the extremely slow clock of Landstill (and BBS), Flash has all the time in the world to do this. I'm not saying that Landstill (and BBS) can't beat Flash. I'm not saying it's worth than Fish. All I'm saying is that to simply say "far superior" seems like it would need a bit more weight to the argument. At least with Fish, the deck improves it's clock... and you have to keep in mind that the clock isn't a bunch of vanilla guys. You get draw on a stick, Mage, etc, so you're still getting disruption out of them. The biggest argument I can see against this is Massacre. Massacre alone hardly seems like a reason not to run Fish.

I honestly think Tog would be a little better than Landstill, simply because it can win right after it drops Tog, especially with Cunning Wish -> Berserk. The biggest argument against this is Leyline, which can be bounced.

I also want to comment that UWb Fish actually has about an even matchup vs 4c Landstill. I've played the 4c Landstill matchup alot and I can say for certain that it is a long and drawn out matchup for both players. It's an exhausting matchup that almost always goes to time, often ending at 1-1. In actual tournament play, I've never lost to the deck. I've won 2-1 and drawn twice at 1-1. If Landstill gets tweaked to better handle Hulk Flash (less creature removal), I can easily see this matchup going in Fish's favor.

So in the end, I'm not saying that 4c Landstill or BBS are bad decks (or bad at beating Hulk Flash). All I'm saying is, they aren't "far superior" when it comes to not only being tuned to beat Hulk Flash, but to survive the rest of the playable metagame. And I've been saying for weeks that I think Tog is going to be a strong contender in a Hulk Flash meta too. On the SCG forums I outlined quite a few decks that I think will be viable (after tuning) in a Hulk Flash meta. When I find the post, I'll repost it on The Source.

---

To: Umbowta
As far as the list with MD Duress and SB Leyline losing to Post FS Hulk Flash with 8 Pacts... you either had a bad Fish opponent, you played poorly with Fish, the Hulk player gotta hella lucky over and over by drawing the nuts, or the Fish player got hella unlucky by drawing poop everygame (which also lends to believe that the Fish player doesn't know how to mulligan). The U/B Pre FS Flash build is alot stronger vs Fish than the Post FS Flash builds, and I've gone 50/50 MD and better SB vs the U/B lists. The post FS build runs much less resiliency for much more explosiveness, but Fish has 8 turn 0 answers, 9 turn 1 answers, and additional turn 2+ answers to stop Flash, with the post FS lists having a much harder time of recovering. I'm not sure who your playtest partner was, but I'd be glad to playtest the matchup with you when I have time. Send me a PM and your AIM name.

---

That is all I have for today.

[umbowta]

My bad, Hanni, I was a little unclear. I was piloting Fish, and there were no sideboard Leylines. So, there were only 4 "turn zero" answers in the form of FoW compared to the opposing 4 FoW and 4 PoN. Additional Duress and Extirpate from my board proved not enough, which forces me to consider Leylines in the board. I'm not making the change immediately but, with more testing, I may soon pull the trigger. I'll never run it maindeck though, I'd just play a different deck.

I like the TOG suggestion. Such a good deck and so underplayed. I'll have to dust off my little, psychotic, toothy friends and give them a go around. Or maybe I could just patiently wait for June 1st.

[dre4m]

You definately should have been playing Duress maindeck in fish. Tog sounds like an excellent idea should the nightmare scenario of flash remaining legal occur.

[Phantom]

How can Tog be a good choice when maindeck Leylines are currently being run? Even Flash decks are going to be boarding them in.

I honestly find UWb Fish to be about the best choice possible for non Flash decks. I like that it is scalable depending on how much Flash you will be expecting, and I like that it can still beat Goblins and Thresh.

[umbowta]

maindeck Leylines are currently being run? Even Flash decks are going to be boarding them in.

Are you friggin serious? In more than just IGG? Go go gadget search engine. This is pure insanity. Have I mentioned that I hate :1::u: instants that might as well say, "win target game"?

[LandDestroyer]

Are you friggin serious? In more than just IGG? Go go gadget search engine. This is pure insanity. Have I mentioned that I hate :1::u: instants that might as well say, "win target game"?

Amen, my brother...speak it!

:: remembers I'm agnostic ::

um, yeah...i agree.

:: yup, that's more like it ::

On mws, several games in a row (Game 1s) my opponents and I have each started the game with stuff in play (leyline on my side, gemstone caverns on their side). I usually win those games...

So, which warps the metagame more in a very bad way i might add

1st turn mountain lackey (hmm, i run lighting bolt or stp...b/c you know those aren't good cards against most decks)

or

start play with leyline of the void main deck for flash?

I'll let you all take a stab at that one...since apparently wotc hasn't cared enough to.

- Chris

[Hanni]

How can Tog be a good choice when maindeck Leylines are currently being run? Even Flash decks are going to be boarding them in.


Because Leyline in play on the opposing side doesn't change the game state. As long as the Tog player maintains control of the board and stack, it's still in a good position. The Leyline in play just means that the Tog's player clock is affected... and my Tog list runs 3 Cunning Wish with 1 Disenchant and 1 Krosan Grip SB, so destroying the Leyline is only a matter of time. This slows the clock down but does absolutely nothing to the actual state of the board and stack (aside from less cards in the Tog yard). The deck also has 1 Morphling as an alternate win condition, so that's 4 outs in a deck with a tremendous amount of draw power. The addition of Cunning Wish -> Berserk also helps increase the clock, especially if a Leyline was in play for a little while. You also have to keep in mind that the opponent is boarding out cards for 4 Leylines and if they aren't in black, that leaves them with dead draws later. If they MD the Leylines instead, that means their strategy is a little watered down (aside from IGGy Pop).

This isn't a Tog thread though, so I don't want to go into huge detail about it. I have another thread for it in the N&D.

As far as Fish goes, I can see why you would have had a few problems against Flash without MD Duress and without SB Leylines. However, I still don't think the 8 Pact version is nearly as problematic for Fish as the U/B versions are. 3 Duress MD 4 Leyline SB has been working very well for me and should be more than enough to deal with Hulk Flash at GP Columbus.

[Sugar Woof]

@ Hanni: I've been lurking through the thread for about a month or so now and have tested with the deck through that time. I swapped the cards to match the latest list you posted the other day and started testing and was met with great results. Since I started testing with it I've only lost to combo twice and that was due to just down right horrible draws and mulls to 5 both times. Threshold has just been rolling over to it and the goblins matchup turned out to be better than expected. I was very surprised at how I could hold off early beats from Gobs and draw into a jitte and slap it on a grunt or an avenger and just ride it to victory and g2's were just insane with jitte/e. plague. I've tested like mad with the list since you posted it and have decided I'll be running the list at the Gp also, maybe 1 or 2 tweaks but thats doubtful, I'll more than likely stick to the list. I was hesitant to keep Serra Avengers in but in the past two days 75% of my games have been won by flying over with her or strapping a jitte on her back and it showed me how good they can be. I must give you props it is a very good list and I do believe it is very optimal for gp n it's kind of why I decided to run it too.

If I kind of rambled and didn't make much sense then my apologies it's fairly early in the morning right now.

I just have one question concerning the Landstill matchup. The little I have tested against it I've boarded in 2 vindicate/2 needle and I can't remember what I took out, but am I boarding it wrong? Is there another way to board that matchup? I looked back through the thread to see if I could find any info on it and there may be but I just missed it. Boarding it like that has been working out ok, it may just be the Landstill player if I'm boarding it wrong.

Any info would be appreicated, thanks SW

Also, it seems to me that from testing against affinity it can be a very bad matchup for this build. I've only played a handful of games against but it just seemed to be one of the decks worst matchups at the time.

[Anarky87]

A few people around here are suggesting that you should make the changes of:

-4 Serum Visions

+1 Duress
+3 Cabal Therapy

To you current MD. I'm not entirely sure about those changes, but they say that if you're expecting a meta of combo, that you should really be prepared. I kinda think this is over kill. Anyway, Cabal Therapy and the added Duress let you attempt to rape Flash's hand, while also being good against the other hate decks you will come across there.

It's just someting a few people have suggested.

4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp (Might change this to another Sea, being that Goblins won't be as scary)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[dre4m]

A few people around here are suggesting that you should make the changes of:

-4 Serum Visions

+1 Duress
+3 Cabal Therapy

To you current MD. I'm not entirely sure about those changes, but they say that if you're expecting a meta of combo, that you should really be prepared. I kinda think this is over kill. Anyway, Cabal Therapy and the added Duress let you attempt to rape Flash's hand, while also being good against the other hate decks you will come across there.



Don't cut the Serum Visions, they are what let you get away with a relatively low land count. You don't need the Therapy, you have a good Hulk Flash matchup already, and I really don't know how good more discard is against "any other hate decks," which will probably have cards on the board that you need to worry about, as opposed to in their hand. You are totally right when you say that Therapies are overkill.

[Sugar Woof]

Don't cut the Serum Visions, they are what let you get away with a relatively low land count. You don't need the Therapy, you have a good Hulk Flash matchup already, and I really don't know how good more discard is against "any other hate decks," which will probably have cards on the board that you need to worry about, as opposed to in their hand. You are totally right when you say that Therapies are overkill.

I agree Serum Visions doesn't need to be cut, I tested Ray of Erasure in their spot to have a better Hulk Flash matchup and then realized the md already has a great Hulk Flash/combo matchup. Also, I was missing serums visions when I looked at my first grip of cards and only saw 1 land and 1 ray of erasure and couldn't dig deep enough to hit my 2nd land with it. Rays have their moments but I don't think they're needed.

[Adan]

A few people around here are suggesting that you should make the changes of:

-4 Serum Visions

+1 Duress
+3 Cabal Therapy

To you current MD. I'm not entirely sure about those changes, but they say that if you're expecting a meta of combo, that you should really be prepared. I kinda think this is over kill. Anyway, Cabal Therapy and the added Duress let you attempt to rape Flash's hand, while also being good against the other hate decks you will come across there.

Why do everyone want to run cabal Therapy when running Duress and Confidant? I don't ever want to sac my Confidant in the first place, and second, Cabal Therapy then ist totally dependant from Duress. Only if you have played Duress before, cabal Therapy becomes effective, otherwise it justs sucks. Aditionally, Serum visions gives Fish a lot more consitence and let you take less damage from Confidant WITHOUT saccing him obv.

And without Serum Visions, you have to raise the Landcount, and that's not good at all.

[Anarky87]

I'm not suggesting these changes, I was just mentioning what I've been hearing around. I actually like Serum Visions in the deck and I've been doing just fine against Flash with the 3 MD Duress. Just wanted to put that out there that I'm not the one asking for changes, I'm just passing along the information I've heard.


Why do everyone want to run cabal Therapy when running Duress and Confidant? I'm not saying you should, I was just passing along what I've heard. Play the deck the way you want, I'm not twisting your arm one way or the other.


I don't ever want to sac my Confidant in the first place, and second, Cabal Therapy then ist totally dependant from Duress. Only if you have played Duress before, cabal Therapy becomes effective, otherwise it justs sucks.1) There have been times when I've wanted my Confidant to die because he was becoming a burden. Doesn't happen all the time, but there have been times. Also, no one says you have to sac Confidant, I've also sacced Grunt when he's reached the end of his lifeline.

2) Therapy isn't always dependent on Duress. Knowing what to name in the matchup with Therapy is skill intensive just like knowing what to name with Mage is. But yes, starting with Duress, then Therapy is an amazing play. Therapy also has the chance to be better than Duress at times at the cost of a creature. Whereas Duress will almost always hit 1 card, Therapy can whiff, or hit multiple cards.

I've been doing just fine against Flash with the regular 3 MD Duresses, and I also don't feel the need yet to cut the Visions.

[Hanni]

Well, everyone here already beat me to it, but:

Serum Visions keeps you drawing into relevant disruption so that you aren't drawing dead. Running Cabal Therapy's in place of Visions doesn't necessarily mean you're going to have more disruption... if you're topdecking excess lands, those extra Therapy's aren't going to help you. Considering that you have plenty of time/mana to invest into the cantrip (the Flash decks won't be going off turn 1 with any sort of consistency), it's simply better overall to run Visions. Don't ruin other important matchups just to try and hate out Flash. This isn't a Flash hate deck.

As far as the Landstill matchup goes, SW... I used to run Winter Orb's and I would bring those in vs Landstill. With the new SB geared more towards Flash (and the MD Duress actually improve G1 vs Landstill), then yea Needle and Vindicate seem strong to bring in. I'd drop 3 Daze for 2 Needle and 1 Vindicate, personally. There's nothing else you really want to drop for the 2nd Vindicate. Stifle + Vindicate is decent for blowing up their lands, but I usually just focus on Deed with my Stifles and use the Vindicate to answer Crucible.

[Sugar Woof]

I agree on the Serum Visions, for the deck it's almost a must. What little time I tested without it in the deck I was very displeased by not having the ability to set up confidant triggers with it and also not being able to dig into relevant spells or get rid of lands I want to dig through. As for therapy I don't think it's needed, especially not over serum visions. The deck has disruption already and with semi low creature count I wouldn't be prone to just throw one to a therapy flashback, especially not dark confidant. Running with the deck in testing if confidant sticks it usually means that I win that game just frome shear card advantage and being able to draw into relevant spells to disrupt and win the game whether it be finding a jitte to strap onto a Grunt or just finding a STP to take down the Werebear so I can start swinging through. It just doesn't seem to be a need to fit Cabal Therapy into this deck.

Thanks for the info on the Landstill mu Hanni.

[wethepeople]

This deck is similar to of hanni, but with light differences. Out duress, needle and mom, and IN 3isamarus and one serendib.


I wouldn't ever recommend doing this when modifying Hanni's list, especially right now. Quite frankly, focusing on the combat step is one of the last thing's on my mind, because you are likely to never even get to tap your creatures even once with Flash, and Belcher on the rise. This is a good part of the reason that I, and several others have chosen to run Cabal Therapy, in addition to their four Duress' main.

[Sugar Woof]

I wouldn't ever recommend doing this when modifying Hanni's list, especially right now. Quite frankly, focusing on the combat step is one of the last thing's on my mind, because you are likely to never even get to tap your creatures even once with Flash, and Belcher on the rise. This is a good part of the reason that I, and several others have chosen to run Cabal Therapy, in addition to their four Duress' main.

What did you take out for Cabal Therapy?

[wethepeople]

What did you take out for Cabal Therapy?

I am yet to decide on a definite change, but I have tested all sorts of variations. I have gone down on Angels, Swords, and Mother of Ruins main, which allow me to run four Duress, and 1-2 Cabal Therapies. This replacement has been good in nearly all matchups, aside from Goblins. However, I believe that Goblins will decrease in popularity because it is unable to beat Flash-Combo.

[andrew77]

How important is mother of runes? Is it really that good? Isamaru just seems like a much stronger turn one drop to me. He is also a better answer to a turn one lackey since a mother of runes can be taken out by an incinerator or a fanatic. Isamaru also speeds up your clock against combo and other control decks.

[Citrus-God]

How important is mother of runes? Is it really that good? Isamaru just seems like a much stronger turn one drop to me. He is also a better answer to a turn one lackey since a mother of runes can be taken out by an incinerator or a fanatic. Isamaru also speeds up your clock against combo and other control decks.

No, I do not see Mom leaving this deck. Mom is important because it's Mom and Pikula that gives you an edge against decks with control. The fact Mom (and Pikula chanting 'Swords') protects your Confidants is very important in many match ups. The fact your men have marginal stats as well is a good reason why Mom is in here. Mom is one of the reasons why we do well against Goblins and Threshold.


Isamaru is good, but I cant see it replacing much in this deck. Maybe Avenger, but I find her too important to actually consider cutting her out of the deck.

[Sugar Woof]

Yea I agree totally, Mom needs to stay in the deck, it's too good at protecting your important creatures.(I state the obvious)

@wethepeople: Angels? Are you talking about the Serra Avengers? So your basically cutting 2-3 slots for 1-2 Therapy and a 4th Duress, right? If I read your post right. I tested with 2 Cabal therapy in the md lastnight in place of 1 Stp/1 Serum Visions. It didn't prove to be a huge plus it had little advantages to it but after about 10 games with it I threw the Stp and visions back in because the Therapies just weren't working out very good most of the time. I still don't think there is a need to put Cabal Therapy in this deck.

[Sugar Woof]

I just got back from Columbus where I piloted Fish, I ended up making day two and finishing in 99th place. I had a good day one and a down right horrible day two. I'll post later with a report or some kind of info. I know I faced hulk flash 6 times this weekend and didn't lose a match. But for now here is the list I ran.

md:

1 x swamp
1 x island
1 x plains
3 x tundra
2 x underground sea
1 x scrubland
4 x polluted delta
4 x flooded strand

4 x dark confidant
3 x jotun grunt
2 x serra avenger
4 x meddling mage
3 x mother of runes

4 x serum visions
4 x brainstorm
4 x swords to plowshares
2 x umezawa's jitte
3 x stifle
3 x duress
3 x daze
4 x force of will

sb:
4 x engineered plague
2 x engineered explosives
2 x vindicate
2 x pithing needle
4 x leyline of the void
1 x umezawa's jitte



--Sugar Woof

[LandDestroyer]

....I'll just copy what I wrote on TMD:

Well, I took Hanni's list and changed:
-1 Serum Visions
+1 Serra Avenger

sb
-2 Pithing Needle
+2 Darkblast (figured would be good in mirror)

I played in GPT on Friday (wanted to add 2 more byes onto the 1 I'd get otherwise).
I played against:
Monowhite with ghostly prison, stp, wog, condemn, moat, etc.
2-0
Threshold (red)
2-0
Threshold (red)
2-0
Threshold (white)
2-0
Green trinisphere stompy deck
2-0

Started GP with 3 byes
Round 4: Wolfman with Fish that boarded into flash
I get no creatures, just land game 1.
Game 2, I find 1 of 11 black sources which he wastelands....I never find another and he can just roll over me.

Round 5: Flash
He last card in hand is a daze game 1 and was enough to stop my stifle on his hulk.
game 2 leyline = win
game 3: he has lands + petal on board, time has been called, we're on turn 2, he goes off, i stp, his fow, i have 2 daze but he has just enough to pay and i don't have a 2nd tundra yet for the 2nd stp in my hand.

round 6:
monored burn with maindeck price of progress
g1: mana screws me
g2: jitte = win
g3: i have active jiite, if i untap i win, he has 2 mountains, 1 b. ring and a top in play..he taps digging for last card, finds fireblast and sacs last 2 mountains to cast doing exactly lethal to me.

r7:
black deck with hippies, etc...but red for l.bolt...not white
2-0

r8: affinity
stp = good...i win

r9: mirror
2-0

After seeing that the DCI will say, ooops, we made a mistake with only a couple weeks before the GP...but we're too stubborn to fix it, so we just wasted many peoples' months of testing....I'm going to go ahead and get back out of magic and devote my time to more important things. I'm just too ticked they'd waste so much of our time testing. It's not like they released a new set at a certain time...they just screwed us without need. I'm not going to keep playing with them showing that they'll waste our time when they don't have to. Anyway, so I won a GPT with this and finished 178th (Christoper L Gregory if you look at standings I think that's what it put my name as) finishing 6-3. If my flash match up had ended in time, I probably would have made day 2...needed 19 pnts for day 2.

emidln (Brandon) sort of finished 6-3 with stax, but somehow it showed him with a loss in round 5...showing his official record as 5-4. Seraphim3577 (Nick) finished 6-3 playing the same 75 as me. One last thing, congrats to Tash for kicking it into day 2 with his deck, GG. Hope you do even better at your next event.

[eternaldarkness]

Congrats everyone who made day 2 with Fish! The deck was definitely out in force at the Grand Prix. I guess Fish is the trump card against the Legacy elephant that is Flash:wink:

How were your aggro match-ups? Specifically goblins? I think one reason why Goblins still managed to pull off showing was that they basically beat Fish decks gunning against Flash. And there were certainly a lot of that at Columbus.

I actually laughed when I read DeRosa's deck name..Bigger Fish??

[Hanni]

I scrubbed out. Glad to see you guys did well with the deck.

I got a few bad pairings, a few really bad draws, a couple of misplays, and one game loss due to tardiness.

I got paired against 0 Hulk Flash.

It was funny to see how large a % of the field was with Fish, although I felt most of the versions I was seeing were bad builds.

As far as Goblins goes, I really don't see why everyone constantly thinks the matchup is bad. It's really not. Game 1 with MD Duress the matchup is either 50/50 or a little worse (like 45/55), but postboard the matchup increases to around 65/55 or better.

[Sugar Woof]

Well here's how my weekend went

Friday, GP Trial Grinder:

R1: U/W/G Thresh 2-1

R2: Meathooks 2-0 (he got a game loss for some reason, I think he registered late)

R3: Deadguy 2-0

R4: Hulk Flash (Stephen Menendian or however you spell it) 2-1

R5: Hulk Flash (Jesse ??? from the source) 2-0 I think

woo, 3 byes

Saturday, Day One:

R 1-3: bored almost pass out

R4: Fish Mirror 0-2
He has md spell snares and that basically takes game one down. G2 he brings in shackles, I don't have them, I lose.

R5: Hulk Flash 2-1
Game one goes how normally most my flash matchups were, I drop a mage beat with stp/fow/stifle back up and things of the sort. G2, I think I misplayed, but it really comes down to if he had 2 carrion feeders in his deck. He casts flash with feeder already on board and I should've responded with stp on feeder but didn't and we go to game 3. Game 3 I go turn 0 leyline and it's over from there really.

R6: Hulk Flash 2-1
Game one I just have too many things, he's playing Orim's Chant md and he thinks he has me by responding to my Force of Will targeting his Chant by responding with Flash, but I have stifle/stp back up so it's gg. G2 I just get beat down by Exalted Angel and can't find an stp. G3 he just sits dead in the water while I beat with a confidant then a pikula.

R7: Zoo 2-0
I was surpised to see this in later tables but who knows. G1 is close but a Serra Avenger picks a jitte up n figures out what to do with it and goes the distance. G2 he keeps a one taiga hand and plays a lone kird ape while I'm setting up. I vindicate the taiga, stp his ape, he only draws one forest after that and Avenger/Jitte takes the game again.

R8: 43 Land 0-2
Didn't expect to see it, I got rolled. Double exploration G1, Choke game 2 :(.

R9: Goblins ID
We intentially drew and after I ask what he was playing he says Gobs and I have a sigh of relief. He asks, "what you have a great matchup?" I spread my deck out and he regrets the ID immediatly.

6-2-1 I go into day two in 68th position

R10: Gabe Walls playing Loam He concedes to me after time.
He takes game from a savagely vicious topdecked engineered explosives and my board cost 2. Game 2 I open with a leyline and by the time he finds Reverant Silence it's too late. We go to time and end the 5 turns, he asks if I'll concede I say no and he doesn't want a draw so he concedes to me.

R11: Deadguy 1-2
Game 1 I hit a mull to 5, I come out good though but I get him to 1 and he kills me. G2 I keep a grip of 7 and straight roll him. G3 I mull to 4 this time and get him to one once again, I have a grunt on board and he has 1 cursed scroll and 4 dark rituals in hand. He top decks a cursed scroll to take G3. :(

R12: Deadguy 0-2
Mull to 5 g1 and he goes turn 1 Hymn to Tourach, shortly after we go to g2. I keep a decent grip but he goes quad Vindicate and wins.

R13: Fish 1-2
Game 1 I find out quick that he does indeed have md Vedalken Shackles as I was told, we go to game 2 shortly after it hits. Game 2 I just roll with the punches and crash a lot before he really gets anything going, Engineered Explosives kept his Shackles down this game. Game 3 was close he just overran me with Serra Avenger x 2 and Mother of Runes x 2.

R14: Hulk Flash 2-0
Same game 1 as all weekend, Meddling Mage sticks, crash in while building up, he can't combo. Game 2 I go double Leyline on turn 0, he only sees 2 land and can't cast his Meddling Mage or Phyrexian Negator and he loses.

R15: Craig Jones Playing Fish that transforms into Flash 1-1-1
A very interesting g1, Meddling Mages everywhere, at one point I had a MM set to Stp, then he cast two more naming Stp, 3 Meddling Mages set to Stp at one time.....hmmm.....He eventually takes me down with his Serra Avenger but not before he plays a Benevolant Bodyguard and that tells me he transforms to flash. Game 2 I board in Leylines/Needle, get Double Leyline turn 0 and start beating, he plays a few creatures but they don't stand a chance, I get a jitte active just before time gets called, I think I won the game on Turn 3 or 5 i'm not sure. We draw.

I finished day two with a 8-5-2 record and finished 99th. My friend Brian(Curt) Lusk who ran Smart Goblins finished day two at 10-4-1 and finished 55th. So as you see, my day two wasn't very pleasant. But I was pleased with the deck as a whole from the entire weekend.

--Sugar Woof

[Hanni]

Inspired by Paul Cheon's tweaks to my list, I decided to tweak his version and see if it was any good:

UWb Bigger Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (16)
3 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Chrome Mox

Sideboard (15)
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Engineered Plague
3 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Basically, the deck drops 4 Serum Visions for 3 Shadowmages/1 SoFI and drops 3 Grunt for 3 Chrome Mox. I dropped a Tundra for a Swamp because of the heavier dependance on black.

The Chrome Moxes help accelerate the Shadowmages and equipment, while the raw CA generated makes up for the disadvantage of the Moxes. They also give the deck 20 mana sources which are necessary without the additional cantrip.

I really like Jotun Grunt, but they were the only thing I could see myself cutting. The Threshold matchup worsens for game 1 now (along with other graveyard-dependant matchups), but they get sideboarded in for games 2 and 3. The card advantage the deck generates should be huge against Threshold too though.

The equipment split is pretty nice since it helps dodge Needle a little bit. I've always been against SoFI in Fish because of how mana expensive it is but Chrome Mox makes it playable in this decklist. It's nice to be able to abuse 2 equipment pieces. It also works nice so that I'm running less Legendary Jittes (which are dead in multiples) but more equipment overall. Additionally, the SoFI help generate more card advantage and the deck has plenty of evasion with Shadowmage, Mother of Runes, and Serra Avenger.

I'm not really sure how much I like this list right now but it's done fairly well in the few games I've played with it on MWS. I'll do more testing with it... I may actually find myself switching over to this version of Fish.

It really depends on how much better my matchups get with this list as opposed to my standardized one. The Goblins matchup seems a little stronger due to extra mana sources (w/ Chrome Mox no less) + SoFI, while I have absolutely no clue about the Threshold matchup... losing Jotun Grunt maindeck is bad but gaining tons of card advantage maindeck is good (and even better postboard).

SB vs Threshold
-3 Stifle
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Jotun Grunt
+3 Vindicate
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB vs Goblins
-1 Dark Confidant
-3 Duress
-3 Daze
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

In a Flash metagame, I'd drop 2 Winter Orb, 1 SoFI, and 1 Jotun Grunt for 4 Leylines in the sideboard.

Sideboard (15)
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle

Vs Thresh w/ Leyline SB
-2 Chrome Mox
-3 Stifle
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Vindicate
+2 Jotun Grunt
+4 Leyline of the Void

Even though Leyline wrecks graveyards, it only works vs Thresh if it's in the opening hand. Once they reach Threshold, hardcast Leyline does nothing. This is the reason why I'd run 2 Grunt SB with 4 Leyline SB, even though that's quite a bit of yard hate.

EDIT: Chrome Mox has been ass in my limited testing. The only time I like it is when I have it in my opener and I can cast a turn 1 Confidant. Otherwise, it's been terrible, even in the opener. When I topdeck it, it's even worse.

-3 Chrome Mox
+3 Serum Visions

Even though this slows down SoFI alot, I still want to test the 2/1 split on equipment some more.