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Maveric78f
10-17-2006, 04:19 PM
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// Lands (19)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
5 [A] Island (2)
3 [A] Swamp (4)
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [A] Plains (3)
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures (27)
3 [PS] Cavern Harpy
2 [P3] Corrupt Court Official
2 [9E] Ravenous Rats
4 [TS] Dream Stalker
1 [FD] Leonin Squire
4 [TSP] Sage of Epityr
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
2 [RAV] Dimir Infiltrator
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend

// Spells (14)
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [TS] Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [FD] Leonin Squire
SB: 1 [A] Disenchant
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 4 [TE] Engineered plague

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////// Original Reflexion ///////

After having played quite a lot Aluren this past month and noticed that too many cards were missing to gather them from the end of the month for the tournament I was targetting. So, while I was playing Aluren on MWS, I found that cavern harpy was one of those underestimated cards of legacy. We have to acknowledge that it's a unkillable creature that is flying and that is able to strike for 2. I decided that this card was deserving to be given a try to build a competitive deck around it (and not around Aluren). My researches led me to the conclusion that, yes, we can make a legacy competitive deck, but that surprisingly the creature cards enabling that were from Time Spiral or Portal...

The first gift from TS and not the least is Dream Stalker which doesn't look that terrible at first glance but it's very very polyvallent : a strong wall, an equipment wearer, even Jitte. It doesn't need a creature to bounce, so that you can play it with no creature in play. It has also a very good interaction with aether vial : it can save any of our permanents or even give an additionnal mana if you didn't play any land this turn. Once equipped, it's a creature very difficult to get rid off.

The second creature from TS is already showing up in many blue fish decks : Sage of Epityr. It has also a good interaction with vial when both in opening hand : you can choose your first draw. It's a first "positive come into play ability".

The first creature from Portal (2) : Ravenous Rats (you can check, its first edition was in Portal 2 before Urza's, Invasion's and common sets). It's becoming good when it's recursive. With vial + harpy, it's very soon 1 card discarded by the opponent each turn and then when it's hand is empty, you can make him discard in instant at his draw step.

The second add-on from Portal (3) : Corrupt Court Official, the clone of Ravenous Rats, the number makes the efficience of the combo. The rats are easy to kill : STP in response of an harpy. But the harpy is unkillable. Anti-artifact in instant are not that common is the metagame neither.

The third creature from Portal (2) is temple acolyte : a resistant creature for 2 giving 3 life when coming into play. It's a nice blocker, a nice equipment wearer but has the bad idea of not being blue neither black. As we'll see later I'm not sure of this slot.

It's the same for the only common old set creatures, I'm not really convinced : Leonin Squire. Rescues a countered vial and gives a recursivity of the Engineered Explosives.

The rest has been a bit discussed, and it's more classical : aether vials, equipments (jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice of course), engineered explosives to clean a bit the table when needed, and a bit to manipulate the library.

The mana base is quite light thanks to vial and the small casting cost of my cards. I play only 18 lands. Morever it's very fetch oriented (8 ), because of the manipulation of the sage and of brainstorm.

Curve :
0 : ..................
1 : ............
2 : .......................
3 : ...
X : .... with X < 3.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
4 [A] Island
3 [A] Swamp
1 [A] Scrubland
1 [A] Plains

// Creatures
4 [PS] Cavern Harpy
4 [TS] Sage of Epityr
4 [P3] Corrupt Court Official
4 [P2] Ravenous Rats
4 [TS] Dream Stalker
3 [P2] Temple Acolyte
2 [FD] Leonin Squire

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [IN] Recoil
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [P2] Temple Acolyte
SB: 1 [FD] Leonin Squire

Now I'm going to tell the tries I did :
4*confidant MD (instead of temple acolyte and leonin squire) : quite logical when you see the mana curve and the library manipulation. But finally, I don't need card advtange, because I'm always dealing with creatures coming back to hand, protecting them, ... When they were in the deck I very rarely played them. However I think it cuold be a good side against some decks, like mana denial, or discard. I'm thinking about reintegrating them in the side.
4*Manowar MD (instead of temple acolyte and leonin squire) : to deal with the opponent creatures, quite combo with the rat strategy. But it's 3 of CC, that means that I can't use it in instant with vial (or I reserve it only for it). Moreover when you have only manowar and harpy in hand and that your opponent doesn't control any creature, you hate this card.
4*Cabal Therapy MD (instead of EE) : quite logical too when you notice that the creatures I'm playing are simple 1/1 once they are in play. But it's a very dead card in late game. But it's very valuable against combo to empty their hands very early. That's why they are still in the sideboard. Moreover it's always better when you know the opponent deck.

Choices of sideboard :
Recoil*3 : In sideboard, I wanted a bouncer because it's combo with the rat strategy. I'm still not convinced at this level. The candidates are the usual ones : chain of vapor (but I don't like to see it back on my equipments or vials), echoing truth (but some lands are problematic like tabernacle or maze), boomerang (but the UU cost is not desirable) and recoil (my choice for the moment, but it's 3 of CC). I'm also thinking of Vindicate finally not a bouncer but a table sweeper.

Engineered plague*3 : mainly against gob, also the randoms tribal decks (elves, soldiers, birds).
Planar Void : in legacy, you always need some grave hate or you'll lose some stupid matchups like reanimator, ichorid, thresh, loam confinement, ...
2 random creatures : Let's see if I can't change them...

For the moment, my main question remains : which creatures can I used to fill in the slots I have MD and in SB. The harpy*4, rats*8, sage*4 and stalker*4 are all (almost) auto-include in MD, at least *3. My first selection is this one :
// cloud of faeries => (+) evasion, gives mana with vial in play (-) fragile ***
// Leonin squire => (+) get's countered vials, EE back (-) white ****
// soul warden => (+) we need some PVs to compete against aggro decks => has to be played early in the game and is white, it means early fetch which I don't like, 1/1 too fragile **
// monk realist => (+) kills enchantments - white, 1/1 *
// sunstrike legionnaire => (+) 2 of toughness, a good creature control in this deck - white, not operationnal the turn when it's come into play ****
// temple acolyte => (+) 3 of toughness, gives 3 precious PVs - white *****
// manowar => already discussed **
// owl familiar => (+) renews the library, evasion - doesn't create card advantage, 1/1 too fragile **
// mother of the runes => (+) CC=1, gets our creatures tougher to kill and often unblockable and very strong walls - white, 1/1 fragile ***
// dark confidant => (+) draw machine, good synergy with the mechanisms of the deck - the PVs are needed for the harpy, too fragile **
// meddling mage => (+) well, it's meddling mage - white, not really in the disruption concept of the deck **
// galina's knight => (+) resists to the main anti creatures, deals some decks alone - white (but also blue, this means that it can be saved by an harpy) ****
// Nezumi Shortfang => (+) in synergy with the concept of the deck, big creature once flipped (-) 1/1 fragile, not operationnal from the turn it comes into play. ***

Maybe I should make some room for galina's knight...

Do you have some ideas ?

Cavius The Great
10-18-2006, 01:19 PM
Can you give some explanations as to what some of the "rogue" cards actually do, I have no idea what half the decklist does, and that's probably a bad sign. I only know what good cards do.

Eldariel
10-18-2006, 01:42 PM
Consider Trinket Mage; it fetches all the cogs your Squire retreaves and can do so over and over again. It seems like a really potent card with such a set of cogs. I'd also play Dark Confidant, since it not only draws cards, but also accelerates drawing into business.

How do you plan on beating combo? I think fitting Forces over Sword (it's so expensive for the deck) and Meddling Mages somewhere could give you a fighting chance there.

Maveric78f
10-19-2006, 04:36 AM
Calvius the great=>
There is a lot to do, so I do it only for un-welll-known cards in legacy (CIPE = come into play effect) :
4 [TS] Sage of Epityr : 1/1 for U, with CIPE : look at the first 4 cards in library and put them back in any order.
4 [P3] Corrupt Court Official : exact copy of ravenous rats
4 [TS] Dream Stalker : 1/5 for 1U, with CIPE : return a permanent you control to it'sowner's hand
3 [P2] Temple Acolyte : 1/3 for 1W, with CIPE : gain 3 life (I consider it as a very good card against gob and all other aggros)
2 [FD] Leonin Squire : 2/2 for 1W, with CIPE : return target artifact card with CC(< or =) to 1 from your graveyard to hand

Eldariel =>
I've considered trinket mage (I did not try it though), that's not a bad idea but its CC=3, and it's very problematic because I very often refuse lands with sage and brainstorm as soon as I have 2 of them plus 1 vial with 2 counters. The vials, that are so important in my deck, can usually be found very fast thanks to brainstorm and sages.
I've also considered Dark Confidant and I tried it. It was the card I was playing before considering integrating some white in my deck. I've been disappointed by it because it's very fragile, it's causing more life loss and I really don't need it with all the fetches I play and the harpy ability. Moreover the concept of the deck is to play several times all my creatures so that I don't need card advantage because I can't play all my hand anyway. I just need to draw the cards I want to.

About combo, I did not do a lot of testing but you can believe me, my discard is going very fast, most of the time the opponent lose 1 card each turn from the 2 turn. I know it's not enough to beat very fast decks. That why I play 4 cabal therapy in side which enable a Turn 1 cabal, turn 2 rat + flashback of cabal. That's a very fast way to empty the opponent hand.
Against ill gotten gains, that may not be enough, that's why I also have to side in planar void (which helps also to avoid life from the loam and Squee Nabab Goblin fill-hand recursion).

We all know that most of the time the best defense against combo is discard and not counterspell. That's why I'm not hot in adding Force of Will. I agree though that Sword is too much expensive.

We all know that most of the time the best defense against combo is discard and not countermagic. That's why I'm not hot in adding Force of Will. I agree though that Sword is too much expensive. But I absolutely need equipments and the only good ones I know are : jitte, SoFI and at lesser extent SoLS, O'Nagita and Loxodon Warhammer. O'Nagita can't be used because I can't equip... The other ones are at least as expensive as Sword. So maybe I'll cut my swords to give +1*Jitte and some pro-red creatures such as Galina's knight.

Actualisation of my comments =>
I've found a very good card for this deck : dimir infiltrator, 1/3 unblockable for UB with the transmute ability. It can alse tutor most of my cards, even if it's very expensive and if that's not going to be its first use. I consider it*3 with -1 squire, -1 harpy (which is not needed in early game and really not needed in several copies in hand), -1 rat and -1 Sword for +1 disenchant (tutor power).


I will explain very globally how this deck should work :
Against aggro : put down early good blockers, typically Dream stalker or other 1/3 creature. Once you have a defense, deal with his hand with rats and harpy. Harpy is also a very good blocker in case you did not notice. Then keep discarding him in instant at his draw phase.
Against control : beware of pernicious deed. It's your worst enemy. Engineered explosives is not really a problem because the opponent will have to choose between vial and creatures. and very often you can save some of them (by not playing them or with a bouncer cast with vial). In conclusion, keep creatures in hand and try to make him discard as much as you can. Then play equipments to kill him.
Against combo, I've already talked about it : the main concern is the discard.

midnightAce
10-19-2006, 03:59 PM
There are a couple of things I worry about the current creature selection.

The first one is that a lot of the creatures all have an ass of 1, which translates to Sharpshooter food pre-equipment, and the second is the constant life investment that you must put into the Harpy in order to bounce your other critters. With 8 Fetches and the constant life investment, approximately how much life loss is caused by the deck alone over the course of a normal game?

Since the deck is based on returning your own critter, what about using Ubilicus and Blood Clock? I know the 4cc is on the high end of the curve for your deck, but once that's down, there is no need for additional mana or life investment, and it affects the opponent as well.

Eldariel
10-19-2006, 04:24 PM
I just want to address the FoW-issue:
FoW IS actually the most awesome answer you have available to Ill-Gotten Gains. The trick is, counters ALONE aren't enough to stop combo, but if you get Meddling Mage down, you can protect it from their bounce with FoW while also discarding their hand steadily down. FoW really allows you to even out their momentum; while they go for the fast win, you win the long game. Therefore, you need fast cards that allow you to go into the long game and no card does that quite as well as FoW. FoW makes them use a relevant card AND mana, and you counter it without as much as an effort. This usually stops especially Tendrils-combo from going off early, and makes removing those Meddling Magi extremely difficult for pretty much everything. Also, FoW gives you the means to stop those Lackeys and opposing Vials, something every deck has to contend with. I definately agree with going for more Jittes over Swords since as said, Swords just cost WAY too much for your deck. It's generally turn 4 before you can equip it and that's providing that you hit your landdrops and haven't been killed or had your creatures stopped.

Also, considered Tormod's Crypt? Crypt-recursion with some Leonin Squires is some good.

Maveric78f
10-20-2006, 04:11 AM
You both are right I guess. But first of all I'd like to show you my current build which has a bit evoluated :

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// Lands (18 )
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Swamp
1 Scrubland
2 Plains

// Creatures (25)
3 Cavern Harpy
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Corrupt Court Official
3 Ravenous Rats
3 Dream Stalker
3 Temple Acolyte
1 Leonin Squire
3 Dimir Infiltrator
2 Galina's Knight

// Spells (17)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vindicate
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Brainstorm
4 AEther Vial
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth

// Sideboard (15)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered explosives
1 Vindicate
2 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
1 Ravenous Rat
2 Galina's knight

The changes has been made in order to make some place for the dimir infiltrator with tutorable random solution for everycase (disenchant, echoing truth and Galina's knight). The side has been considerably changed too.

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Midnight Ace =>
Sharpshooter is clearly a problem, but my last build plays 3*1/5, 6*1/3 and 4*2/2 plus the harpy*3 which is not sharpshooterable (it's like targetting me after all). So finally the list has evolved in this direction...
About the life loss, it's something about 3*fetchs + 5*harpies in worst case but don't forget that Jitte and Temple Acolyte are here to help with that.
About the twin artifacts you propose, you told it the problem is clearly their mana cost.

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Eldariel =>
You're right with FoW, I know that the disruption of aluren is 4*FoW + 4*Cabal therapy and it's really enough. But I have absolutely no idea of what getting out and what in. For the moment I have 20 blue cards MD but it can fall down a lot after side. And the point is that I really don't know what to get off. Maybe temple acolytes and rely on jitte only to get life back.
About tormod's crypt, it's seducing, but I need room in my side... With maybe this new sideboard :
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
1 Galina's knight
2 Tormod's crypt
2 from this list : Galina's knight, Vindicate, Engineered explosives, Meddling Mage, Tormod's Crypt.

Maveric78f
10-20-2006, 04:22 AM
Once thing I forgot, sorry for double post. I wonder if daze would not be better than FoW in the deck because, even if I don't play a lot of islands, I refuse all hands without blue mana (through fetch or not) and I always begin with a blue land (except after siding in the cabal therapy), because my 1CC cards are either blue either artifact and I wan't to get the opponent afraid by daze ^^ (using daze without playing it). Finally daze is a land saver, and better integrated to a low curve deck, even if it's not really efficient against IGG. It's not really efficient against a first turn lackey, so finally I agree that FoW is the best.

Moczoc
10-20-2006, 05:59 AM
I think Skull Collector may be a good inclusion to be able to establish a lock even without harpy.

Cavius The Great
10-20-2006, 10:55 AM
You both are right I guess. But first of all I'd like to show you my current build which has a bit evoluated :

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// Lands (18 )
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Swamp
1 Scrubland
2 Plains

// Creatures (25)
3 Cavern Harpy
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Corrupt Court Official
3 Ravenous Rats
3 Dream Stalker
3 Temple Acolyte
1 Leonin Squire
3 Dimir Infiltrator
2 Galina's Knight

// Spells (17)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vindicate
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Brainstorm
4 AEther Vial
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth

// Sideboard (15)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered explosives
1 Vindicate
2 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
1 Ravenous Rat
2 Galina's knight

The changes has been made in order to make some place for the dimir infiltrator with tutorable random solution for everycase (disenchant, echoing truth and Galina's knight). The side has been considerably changed too.

*************************

Midnight Ace =>
Sharpshooter is clearly a problem, but my last build plays 3*1/5, 6*1/3 and 4*2/2 plus the harpy*3 which is not sharpshooterable (it's like targetting me after all). So finally the list has evolved in this direction...
About the life loss, it's something about 3*fetchs + 5*harpies in worst case but don't forget that Jitte and Temple Acolyte are here to help with that.
About the twin artifacts you propose, you told it the problem is clearly their mana cost.

*************************

Eldariel =>
You're right with FoW, I know that the disruption of aluren is 4*FoW + 4*Cabal therapy and it's really enough. But I have absolutely no idea of what getting out and what in. For the moment I have 20 blue cards MD but it can fall down a lot after side. And the point is that I really don't know what to get off. Maybe temple acolytes and rely on jitte only to get life back.
About tormod's crypt, it's seducing, but I need room in my side... With maybe this new sideboard :
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
1 Galina's knight
2 Tormod's crypt
2 from this list : Galina's knight, Vindicate, Engineered explosives, Meddling Mage, Tormod's Crypt.


Why aren't you playing a full set of duals?

Alfred
10-20-2006, 02:56 PM
I find that with this deck there are a lot of cards in quantities of one, two and three. I understand that you are running Dimir Infiltrator as a means of finding them, but it's transmute ability seems far too expensive for the utility that it grants. This may just be me, but I would cut a lot of the tutorable stuff, and just bump up the count of a lot of the cards that you find to be the most effective in most matches.

I would definately be tempted to run Trinket Mage and Pithing Needle, as it finds a lot of the cards you already have in your deck. And unlike Infiltrator, it not only has a decent body to go along with the search, it also is very synergistic with the self-bounce theme that is already present in the deck.

The lack of Force of Will in this deck is almost inexcusable. FoW is almost certainly one of the most, if not the most powerful card in the whole format, and you are definately running enough blue to support it. Start cutting the cards you find to be the worst in the deck, and somehow find a way to include it.

Also, have you considered Court Hussar? It's seach ability, plus it's big behind/vigilance make it seem like it's a natural fit for this deck. Have you considered it at all?

EDIT: Also, 18 lands is not enough for a competative 60 card deck with a curve that settles above 2, even with the inclusion of Aether Vial. For example, Burn runs a lower curve than this deck does, yet most builds run more land than you do, and Vial is matched with Magma Jet. Personally, I would run 22 lands, but perhaps you could get away with running 21. Anything less than that, and I think that you're going to have a lingering mana problem.

Maveric78f
10-20-2006, 05:56 PM
I find that with this deck there are a lot of cards in quantities of one, two and three. I understand that you are running Dimir Infiltrator as a means of finding them, but it's transmute ability seems far too expensive for the utility that it grants. This may just be me, but I would cut a lot of the tutorable stuff, and just bump up the count of a lot of the cards that you find to be the most effective in most matches.

I don't agree at all with you. My deck is most of 3* or 4* each card. The tutorable cards are only galina, leonin squire, disenchant and echoin truth, which are only 4 cards in a 60 cards deck. Vindicate and EE have the same utility with different applicabilities. As I can't make my choice, I prefer to keep both my library manipulation and scrying can give me a choice between these 2 cards at the right moment.


I would definately be tempted to run Trinket Mage and Pithing Needle, as it finds a lot of the cards you already have in your deck. And unlike Infiltrator, it not only has a decent body to go along with the search, it also is very synergistic with the self-bounce theme that is already present in the deck.

I agree with this part. I'm also very tempted. I have however something to add, dimir infiltrator is not only a tutor it's an early-played, unblockable and resistant creature, that will be bounced as soon as I need a specific card. That is why this card is synergic with the deck.


The lack of Force of Will in this deck is almost inexcusable. FoW is almost certainly one of the most, if not the most powerful card in the whole format, and you are definately running enough blue to support it. Start cutting the cards you find to be the worst in the deck, and somehow find a way to include it.

I've already told that I'm convinced. But I really don't know what to get out.


Also, have you considered Court Hussar? It's seach ability, plus it's big behind/vigilance make it seem like it's a natural fit for this deck. Have you considered it at all?

Too expensive if you want to win the race against gob or other fast aggro decks. The strength of the deck is that almost all the creatures are playable under vials.


EDIT: Also, 18 lands is not enough for a competative 60 card deck with a curve that settles above 2, even with the inclusion of Aether Vial. For example, Burn runs a lower curve than this deck does, yet most builds run more land than you do, and Vial is matched with Magma Jet. Personally, I would run 22 lands, but perhaps you could get away with running 21. Anything less than that, and I think that you're going to have a lingering mana problem.

This is completely false. The UWb deck plays only 17 cards with no vials and has made some results. The fact is that I'm playing vials + cantrips. That's not the case of the decks you are talking about.

About the sets of dual lands, it's because I don't need them (there is no double need of a single color) and because I can't afford losing my lands as easily as with a wasteland. I just have the double land I need to fetch in need. As all the fetches give me an island, I just need a scrubland. As simple as that.

Maveric78f
11-07-2006, 09:28 AM
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
5 [CHK] Island (2)
3 [MI] Swamp (4)
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [MR] Plains (3)
1 [U] Underground Sea
1 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [PS] Cavern Harpy
3 [P3] Corrupt Court Official
3 [9E] Ravenous Rats
4 [TS] Dream Stalker
1 [FD] Leonin Squire
2 [P2] Temple Acolyte
4 [TS] Sage of Epityr
3 [RAV] Dimir Infiltrator
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [B] Disenchant
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TS] Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [IN] Galina's Knight
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage

_________________________________

Thank you to all, this version is again better.

I'll explain a bit the matchups :

Gob : quite unfavorable preboard jitte is hurting him as well as the instant speed creatures but the piledriver is clearly a problem because it has protection against blue. If you can top deck temple acolyte, it's mage to own gobbies : gives tempo and is a good blocker for only too.
Quite favorable postboard :
+2 plague
+2 galina's knight
+1 FoW
-1 disenchant
-1 tormod's crypt
-3 trinket mage

Threshold : quite favorable preboard tormod's crypt can be played several times MD. The Dream Stalker is just designed to play against these decks. Moreover the discard hurt them strongly. EE helps also a lot. The main threats are the mystic enforcer that can't be blocked by the harpy because of protection.
Post board : quite favorable (we keep disenchant in to face the needles)
-3 FoW
-2 temple acolyte
-1 pithing needle
-1 dimir infiltrator
+4 cabal therapy
+3 Meddling mage (to name STP or something you've seen thanks to cabal)

Deadguy Ale : favorable preboard deadguy doesn't like vial, it doesn't like the sage of epytir neither, that can help finding some mana or anything else. Harpy deals with specter or kyomaro perfectly. Their duress are very often useless... The threat comes from the early hymns, the vindicates and the cursed scrolls.
postboard : still favorable
-3 FoW
-2 temple acolyte
-1 tormod's crypt
-1 trinket mage
+4 cabal therapy (for hymns)
+3 Meddling mage

Combo decks : very unfavorable postboard, our only chance is to race them thanks to the rats and the advisors, but usually, they can handle this. The random FoWs can steal some games too.
postboard : slightly favorable
-2 temple acolyte
-3 dimir infiltrator
-1 tormod's crypt (depending on the combo deck actually)
-1 disenchant (depending on the combo deck actually)
-1 pithing needle (depending on the combo deck actually)
-1 Engineered explosives (depending on the combo deck actually)
-3 trinket mage (depending on the importance of the artifacts)
-1 Leonin squire (depending on the importance of the artifacts)
-X Jitte (depending on the slots to fill in)
+4 cabal therapy
+1 FoW
+3 meddling mage

Cavius The Great
11-07-2006, 02:49 PM
Have you considered Duress at all? It seems like something the deck is missing. Plus they work wonders with Meddling Mage and Therapy.

Chrome Mox also seems like another obvious inclusion considering all you 2cc critters and low land count.

xsockmonkeyx
11-07-2006, 03:06 PM
You are playing Trinket Mage and 5 basic islands. Maybe one of them could be Seat of the Synod, no? Sometimes it's nice to tutor up a land.

Also do yourself a favor and drop the temple accolytes. I know they do cool things but there is better stuff out there for 2 mana. Meddling Mage seems decent main deck with the bounce effects you play.

Maveric78f
11-08-2006, 03:38 AM
I prefer the complementarity of FoW+Cabal therapy than the synergy of duress+cabal therapy. That's also the choice of all the decks that can afford both. I think in priority about Aluren. So duress can still be an addition to the FoW/cabal complementarity but I still need a lot of slots of creatures in that deck it won't work.

About Chrome Mox, I don't need more explosiveness. I find already that the FoW card disadvantage can be very problematic in a lot of cases so that I don't want to add another one. Moreover there is always that creature slot number constraint, and all the other cards are absolutely needed.

About the trinket mage and seat of the synod, I'm still undecided. When I play trinket mage, I usually have already 3 lands which is already 1 more than what I need to have the deck run, because I NEVER want the vial to get 3 counters. But it happens that I'm stuck or that I have 2 vials, and that I finally decide to play the mage through vial. It's kind of rare, more rare than the potential wasteland on my artiland I think. I'm not completely sure, and it's surely a problem of metagame but that is the reason why I don't include 1 artiland. I remember too that I can search for another vial with trinket which is somewhat a mean to get some additionnal mana.

About the temple acolytes, LOL. I agree with you. Jitte is often the best way the earn some life when I need it. But I still want to keep them in side because they are precious against burn or gobs. The including of MD mage may talk in favor of MD cabal therapy instead of FoW.

The changes I keep :
-2 temple acolyte
-1 dimir infiltrator
-1 disenchant
-3 FoW
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Cabal therapy

In sideboard :
-3 meddling mage
-3 cabal therapy
+3 FoW
+1 disenchant
+2 temple acolyte

xsockmonkeyx
11-08-2006, 11:30 AM
How about Chittering Rats for a lock down? Are they too expensive to drop every turn?

Also, I would just try out the 1x Seat of the Synod and see how it goes. Some times its nice to have something to tutor for if everything else would be useless.

Maveric78f
11-08-2006, 01:30 PM
vial is never useless and I play 4 of them.

I changed a bit my side too when I realised that I already had a lot of creatures against gobs so that I could devote my side to something else :

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Leonin Squire (already 1 MD)
SB: 1 [B] Disenchant
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle (already 1 MD)
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy (already 3 MD)
SB: 3 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 3 [US] Absolute Law

Chittering rat is 3 of CC and requires BB. I don't want that. Actually the same lock with ravenous rat of counsil advisor is already a GG, except versus burn.

Cavius The Great
11-08-2006, 01:52 PM
Yea, but a Chittering Rat lock is basically a time walk every turn. With Ravenous Rats they can always topdeck stuff.

Maveric78f
11-09-2006, 03:48 AM
Cavius : I know that. That's why I sayed that the ravenous rat was also ALMOST a lock. Except burn, I've never regretted to have ravenous rat instead of chittering rats. I even find ravenous rat better in case of the opponent having a single card in hand, because it may be the big converted cost killer card they keep in hand to make me some surprise (something like WoG).

So I agree that when I have all my mechanism in place : vial + harpy + rat, the chittering is slightly better but before that the ravenous shows up one turn before, doesn't require BB or a 3-counter vial (which is always tough to accept as I can't play anymore harpy with it and as harpy is the life-insurance of all my creatures). Please don't focus too much on the harpy/rat interaction as the most important is vial/harpy. This interaction alows me to block, put damage on stack to 2 attacking or blocking creatures every turn for only 1 life. The only creatures really problematic are the trample ones with more than 5 in strength ones and the blue or black protection and flying ones. That means that only SSS, Akroma and pilly may be a problem -and the creatures equipped with SoFI). Even exalted angel or jitte are not a problem as the creature won't deal damage when I bounce my harpy.

Maveric78f
11-13-2006, 11:11 AM
I had some few ideas :
- 1 tutorable meekstone MD or SB may be great. Helps against some random big guys : jotun grunt, thresh creatures, goblin goon, sword equipped creatures, loxodon hierarch, SSS. It's not a big change but it can be a nice surprising tool. The idea just come up to my mind so that I'm not sure to do it yet.
- 1 tutorable chalice of the void. Some decks are so disturbed by it...
- change my SB against gobs to fit better to burn : 3 absolute law -> 1 absolute law + 2 warmth.
- I've read (a part of) the faerie stompy thread and I see that you don't play anymore tormod's crypt MD. I find it very strange for a deck that can get rid of it very easily with TfK. I found too that my MD tormod's crypt helped very often. So, I don't know if this choice you've made on the faerie stompy thread was strongly related to the behaviour of the deck, or if it was more a metagame choice.

TheDarkshineKnight
11-13-2006, 01:58 PM
This deck is absolute proof that onyl the French care about Aluren. First Toad, now Maveric; which Frenchman shall fall into the abyss that is trying to make Aluren not suck in Legacy next.

Maveric78f
11-13-2006, 07:17 PM
This deck is absolute proof that onyl the French care about Aluren. First Toad, now Maveric; which Frenchman shall fall into the abyss that is trying to make Aluren not suck in Legacy next.

1°/ Read at least the list : where do you see Aluren ?
2°/ Aluren is very good.
3°/ I didn't know that flaming was allowed on these forums.

UrDraco
11-13-2006, 07:25 PM
Have you though about cutting white from the deck for another color. I was playing the deck and liked it, especially the Mage from timespiral (to my surprise). Then I got to thinking, how else could one abuse comes into play effects and stacking the top of the library, and Coiling Oracle came to mind. If you cut white for green you could add coiling oracle, who was amazing for me in playtesting. Also green opens up options like Living wish and perhaps Plaxmanta.

Another Card I was testing was Mesmeric Fiend instead of Ravenous Rats. With the help of Vial you can bounce the Fiend in responce the the first trigger and completly remove a non-land card of your choice from thier hand forever.

[Edit} oh, and I forgot, I was also testing the use of 2 Shrieking Drake. 1/1 for U that bounces a creature when it comes into play.

Complete_Jank
11-13-2006, 07:58 PM
Have you though about cutting white from the deck for another color. I was playing the deck and liked it, especially the Mage from timespiral (to my surprise). Then I got to thinking, how else could one abuse comes into play effects and stacking the top of the library, and Coiling Oracle came to mind. If you cut white for green you could add coiling oracle, who was amazing for me in playtesting. Also green opens up options like Living wish and perhaps Plaxmanta.

Another Card I was testing was Mesmeric Fiend instead of Ravenous Rats. With the help of Vial you can bounce the Fiend in responce the the first trigger and completly remove a non-land card of your choice from thier hand forever.

If you add green, think about running some of these:
Multani's Acolyte
Wall of Blossoms
Quirion Sentinel


And why are my on topic posts being deleted and said they are off topic?
Please address questions of this nature to the mod staff via PM. Thank you. - Zilla

Maveric78f
11-14-2006, 04:51 AM
UrDraco :

I have thought about green addition mainly because of oracle but I've never tried it. Why ? Because, if I'm going to play green I can't see the advantage I have on aluren. Aluren is really one of the best decks in legacy, so that doesn't mean that the deck you are talking about would necessarily be bad. I just mean that it would not be as good as aluren. Now the question is : why white : because of vindicate, meddling mage, Leonin squire and the good metagames enchantments for the sideboard (warmth, absolute law, rule of law, worship, ...). Compared to aluren, we of course don't have the comboing issue and our kill is very slow compared to aluren but we have a lot more control with meddling mage, and bouncer creatures in instant. Compared to aluren we have also the consistency against mana denial, thanks to playing a lot of basic lands and vials that are somehow a back up in case of having no land into play.

About the mesmeric versus rat : the mesmeric mechanism is far more complicated for the lock (you need at least 2 vials), but I'm aware that it has very good synergy with a bounceable meddling mage and the cabal therapies. Finally, I'm wondering if I may not include some of them. Actually I'm not sure because the mesmeric is not providing card disadvantage and that's really what I'm looking for with rats.

About the shrieking drake, it's tempting but it's always the same : I don't want to have a hand with only harpies and and drake. If I had some more room in my deck I would play first 1 additional harpy and then I would think about integrating some more bouncer. The dream stalker is actually one of the best cards in the deck : saves all the permanents (for jitte or vial, it's very important), it's a very good blocker for most of the big creatures in legacy (jotun grunt, werebear, mongoose, FTK, ...), it may bounce leonin squire for recurring tormod's crypt (that is sooo good), it can wear jitte and attack and it can even produce mana if you bounce a land with it and play it after (I often play or equip jitte like this when I'm in mana-death with a vial into play).

Complete_Jank :

Multani's Acolyte : neither blue nor black so useless in that deck...
Wall of Blossoms : neither blue nor black so useless in that deck...
Quirion Sentinel : neither blue nor black so useless in that deck...

The only neither blue nor black creature I play is leonin squire and it's a real bomb to get back your counterspelled vials or the EE or again the tormods. Leonin squire deserves to use : harpie -> dream stalker -> leonin squire. that is not the case of your creatures.

UrDraco
11-14-2006, 01:53 PM
To be honest I skipped the white version completely just because I don't like Mage. It skipped my mind that you could bounce him and keep them from playing a card you have seen in there hand. As for the Fiend you only need one vial because you can hardcast him, then with the first trigger on the stack vial something into play.

[edit] I don't like mage in general, its not that I don't like him in your deck. I just don't like the card and feel that its overrated.

Maveric78f
11-14-2006, 07:32 PM
You can't judge the mage alone. You have to take into consideration what it can bring you : tormod, pithing, meekstone, chalice, explosives, vial in that deck. It's just awesome ! When it's recurrent, it can bring several of them. The mage option is not discussable because it can bring vial and because vial is so important in the deck that you can't forget it.

About the fiend, you're right, but it's still a 3 cards combo, and my deck is supposed to be versatile, and not be too much dependant on a single card, mostly because a meddling mage can name them or because a pithin needle can name them.

Elfrago
11-15-2006, 03:25 PM
If its needed you can use crystal shard for additonal cheap bounce, to abuse of your CIP effects. There was an old Type 2 deck that qworked in this way...

Maveric78f
11-16-2006, 03:44 AM
That is not a bad idea but it's a 3CC card (so I can't tutor it) and I don't have much room in the deck.

Maveric78f
11-18-2006, 08:19 AM
About the fiend, I did some testing because it's really combo with cabal therapy and meddling mage. I did the following changes :
- 2 rats
- 1 corrupt court
- 2 dimir infiltrator
+1 cabal therapy
+4 mesmeric fiend

so that I'm playing MD :
4*Therapy
4*Mesmeric
4*Meddling mage

That is an awesome set against the opponent hand, except for lands...

The tests are half positive, half negative. The harpy-rat lock is far more difficult to obtain : no more tutor (dimir infiltrator) and less rats. The loss of tutor is also problematic because I want to search for a harpy or a jitte very often. However, the control part is awesome thanks to the previous set.

I don't know how to evolve now. I may need some more test.