[Deck] Monoblue Control (MUC)

[Doks]

Currently, I run 21 Lands in my build of MUC with W-splash including 6 fetchlands and very easily go for a decree with 4-6 Tokens EOT what is enough for a solid clock that does not need to be protected very much.
It even causes no carddisadvantage with its cycling-ability.

In addition, I tried out an Accumulated Knowledge/Intuition - based Drawengine.
It really takes up 6 Slots of the deck, but therefore is a very sure, steady and safe Draw. Intuition can even search for some lands in the lategame for a shuffle-effect and land thinning.
So I am running:

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Intuition


Along the way, I am trying out a more white-heavy version. That takes the deck more in a WUBS-like direction, which can provide you "harder-to-cast-spells" like Wrath of God and Exalted Angel.
Especially, I like the Angel alot in my testings.
It's "swordable", but therefore is a house against pure Aggro and Aggro/Control decks.
Its synergy with Bounce (in response to the removal bounce your facedown angel) is impressive: this strong play creates much CA.


@ Maze of Ith:

It's wasteable/needleable and does not produce ANY Mana (-> like Missing a land drop).
So I would say No.


Doks

[Maximus04]

TheFreakAccident, Your build is still very MUCish, so you can post it here. It's just a hybrid Forbiddian deck. I'll PM my thoughts on the deck.

Doks, AK and Intuition is just to slow and takes up too many slots. The power of Impulse with 2 open slots(put w/e works for your meta) is far more important. The FoF generate plenty of CA for you. If you want to do the AK and Intuition build, you are going have to totally change the MB to optimize those slots.

I like 22 lands, I have been even tempted to bump it back up to 23, but I haven't noticed any manascrew problems with 22. I feel like you can't consistently have strong opening hands with 21 lands and be able to consistently drop you first 3 to 4 land drops which is VERY vital for this deck.

Yeah, try out going to a more UWBS and see where it takes you. I am very happy with the splash version. You just can't beat Morphling...

I like 8 fetchlands, I know it seems insane since you are taking 2 to 5 damage pure game with your own fetchlands, but you have to consistently hit your splash for StP and Mages.

I think Decree as of 1 of could be pretty good.

[Bahamuth]

It's been a really long time since anyone has posted here, and I'd really like to know how this deck is developing. How are the red and white splash working out?

[raharu]

vexing sphinx and splash black for unmask and tombstalker??

[Cidolfus]

When did Isochron Scepter become so unusable. This seems like a deck that could make good use of it. I know the common fear is that you will lose a 2-1 card disadvantage, but I'm seeing barely any maindeck artifact hate. I'm seeing vindicate, tin-street hooligan, pernicious deed, pithing needle and engineered explosives. Many of these builds are running bounce and chrome mox. A 1st turn chrome moxed scepter with boomerang can keep your opponent locked at 1 land indefinitely. If you're a build that splashes white for removal, then you can make use of the well-known Chant-Iso lock.

I just don't understand why so many people are hesitant to use Isochron.

[dre4m]

When did Isochron Scepter become so unusable. This seems like a deck that could make good use of it. I know the common fear is that you will lose a 2-1 card disadvantage, but I'm seeing barely any maindeck artifact hate. I'm seeing vindicate, tin-street hooligan, pernicious deed, pithing needle and engineered explosives. Many of these builds are running bounce and chrome mox. A 1st turn chrome moxed scepter with boomerang can keep your opponent locked at 1 land indefinitely. If you're a build that splashes white for removal, then you can make use of the well-known Chant-Iso lock.

I just don't understand why so many people are hesitant to use Isochron.

UwC is probably the only deck in legacy that could contemplate the awesome Teferi/Sceptre/Chant lock, but it takes far too long to set up. MUC doesn't use Sceptre because you'd probably just be better off playing the card you're imprinting. Mox/Sceptre/Boomerang, because of imprint and land, costs FIVE cards on turn one, so this possibility isn't worth it. On subsequent turns, you need to keep mana up to counter/respond/draw. An AK for four is really sexy on a stick, though.

[Maximus04]

The white splash has been running great for me. Even though Doks thinks the AK and Intuition engine should be used :tongue:.

Here is the current list that I am running

1 - Tundra
2 - Plains
12- Island
4 - Flooded Strand
4 - Polluted Delta

2 - Morphling

4 - Brainstorm
3 - Fact or Ficton
4 - Counterspell
1 - Back to Basics
4 - Swords to Plowshare
4 - Manaleak
4 - Force of Will
3 - Spell Snare
4 - Impulse
2 - Vedalken Shackles
2 - Engineered Explosives

SB
1 - Back to Basic
1 - Vedalken Shackles
1 - Engineered Explosives
3 - Echoing Truth
4 - Meddling Mage
3 - Blue Elemental Blast
2 - Hydroblast

My Thoughts

Fast Combo(Cret, TES, Sui Tendrils) - are tough matchups. You rather them go a quick ETW than anything else. Since you are running lots of bounce out of the side. You just have to test these matchups and get comfortable on how these decks play. You have to know how to mulligan properly.

Aggro-Control(Meathooks, Thresh, Fish) - Just make sure you don't take to much early damage. Try to have the board stabilized so you can steal some of there creatures with shackles. Make sure that Bob doesn't resolve in the fishmatchup. Make sure Crystalline sliver doesn't resolve in Meathooks matchups. Make sure you can answer Nimble mongoose quickly.

Just watch out for pithing needles post side, and make sure you have in some bounce. Try to catch them off guard when they are tapped out with a quick B2B. It is usually worth it. Make sure you are playing around Daze.


Disruptions(BW Confidant, Red Death) - Never get greedy with Dark Ritual. If you have the force, use it. Trust me, no one wants to get caught off guard with a Ritual, Duress, Hymn. Just make sure Confidant doesn't live long in the BW matchup. Just stabalize in the early game with Red death. You sometimes get burned out, but don't tap out unnecessarily and you'll be fine.

Control(Landstill) - This matchup is very tough and strenuous. Each version is different, but the 4 color one gives this deck the most trouble. Just remember, we have more counters. Make sure to disrupt there Draw and try to get down B2B as quickly as possible. Stealing manlands with shackles is sometimes a good call. Some decks are running stifles, so don't crack your fetchlands at inopportune times.

Goblins - Your run swords/forces, that should answer a first turn lackey. If not, your side can handle it with Blasts. Just make sure vial doesn't stay. You'll be fine.

All in all, the deck itself has been performing great for me. I bumped the land count back to 23, you just have to hit your land drops consistently, i wasn't do that enough with 22. I wish i had room for another B2B and Echoing Truth main, but not so.

Mages out of side help improve clock issues with certain combo's. Just make sure you can protect Pikula, ya dig?

Here is the other version that is running the Ak & Intution build.

1 - Tundra
2 - Plains
11- Island
4 - Flooded Strand
4 - Polluted Delta

2 - Morphling

4 - Brainstorm
3 - Fact or Ficton
4 - Counterspell
4 - Accumulated Knowledge
4 - Swords to Plowshare
4 - Manaleak
4 - Force of Will
3 - Spell Snare
2 - Intution
2 - Vedalken Shackles
2 - Engineered Explosives

The deck runs much more CA, so your far more likely to find your answers, the only weakness is that it doesn't allow for room for Bounce or B2B MB. That why i stick with the other version. I really disagree going under 22 land. Doks and a few others think going into white is a better call, but I have never been one to counter spot removal or bounce my own creatures. Thats just me. They have some great points, so i mean no disrespect.

OFF TOPIC
If anyone is going to the Legacy Champs in August and is close to the PA/WV border. I'll totally meet up with you, I'll help pay for gas and split for hotel rooms.

[Nihil Credo]

Mark my words, Maximus: develop the deck in that direction a few more months and you'll end up with UW Landstill.

[4eak]

[EDIT]

What I mean to say is that as slower metagames become faster, the original absolute counter->stabilize cannot exist, even as we change the counter-base to become more tempo-based permission. Because of this shift in the metagame, MUC is forced to use mass-board control. MUC is board-control centric in order to stabilize.

[END EDIT]

As the relevance and power of your counter-base deceases in relation to the tempo of your opponent's relevant threatbase (or as the fundamental turn of the format becomes faster and faster), the more MUC becomes reliant upon tempo-type permission control features. Generally, the earlier a counter-control piece can be played, the weaker it is comparatively to a later game control piece (often with diminishing returns as you scale down, with few exceptions like FoW). The mana to degree of effective to control should certainly scale, and often there are large, even disproportionate, sacrifices made to have free, cheap, and early counters and control. This means that Force Spike is obviously not as good as Mana Leak, except in circumstances in which the tempo of the game is so fast that your only shot to relevantly control the game with permission requires you to "down-grade" in both scale and often proportionate mana to control effectiveness.

At some point, MUC can no longer counter every threat and continue to generate card advantage. Obviously, eternal formats have evolved to the point that MUC doesn't even consider it possible to counter all possible threats. Thus, MUC is forced into board control. Board control generally boils down to either permanent removal or bounce (both serve different functions), but essentially they both help MUC bridge the tempo gap. Bounce is the cheapest and most versatile form of removal, but it is quite temporary. It clearly doesn't deal with threats in the long-term (and this is quite relevant to a control deck), but it can act as tempo gain (something MUC desperately can use often enough)...practically a timewalk in many cases. Again, bounce is not card-advantage, and thus it is limited and least preferred in true control, but often its versatility is necessary to fill in gaps. Single target permanent removal does exist (splash for STP?). But, again it does not answer the problem of MUC only being capable of so many 1v1 for trades while generating spell-based card advantage. The only good answers comes in the form of mass removal. Massive permanent removal is more expensive, less versatile than bounce and pin-point, but it offers MUC the end result in wants: card advantage with no relevant threats on the board (or in the opponent's hand).

To the extent that the counter-base can no longer scale with the tempo of a format, permanent mass board control must substitute. This does mean that MUC is vulnerable because it is often forced to wait to eliminate threats. But, life is a resource, and MUC can certainly use several tempo variables to its advantage to eventually establish control of the game. Legacy's fundamental turn decreases the relevance and power of a counter-control strategy, thus MUC is forced to win the game not in virtue of controlling exclusively the stack, but also controlling the board. Pin-point removal and bounce do not solve the problem, although they can be used to fill in the gaps between Counters and Mass board controllers.

MUC does remain quite powerful (played correctly). You need to understand your role thoroughly. Mass Board control does offer very strong card advantage, often giving 1 to 3 or more. Some mass board controllers offer continual advantage (which make them extremely powerful), such as Back to Basics and Vedalken Shackles. For MUC to exist (and not become fish), it will need to rely upon mass board control. The most important aspect of board control is that it does what your counter-base can't do for you while often acting as card advantage like FoF. The more you play MUC in such a fast environment, the more you will come to understand that the tempo of the format decreases the relevance of permission to the point that counters exist to supplement the mass board controllers, not the other way around.

The deck wins strictly on card advantage, and the principle must be continued for MUC to exist. At any point a blue deck doesn't attempt to generate true card advantage, and simply disrupt, it is an aggro-tempo deck...Fish. When you build and play MUC for Legacy, it is from the standpoint that you are attempting to resolve and use a mass-board controller. Counters help you live long enough to do that.

In a fairly slow format you would go: Counter-control -> Stabilize -> Win condition

Legacy is closer to: Counter-control -> Board Control -> Stabilize -> Win Condition

Stabilizing is the point at which there are no relevant threats on the board or in the opponents hand and you have relevant card advantage. Of course, cantrips, card-drawing, permission, and even bounce will be used throughout the cycle. The important thing to note (yes, I sound redundant): The general aim of MUC has changed. The job of the Legacy MUC player is to get a board controller into play.
So, the short summary:

I find the early game cannot be won by MUC. As we cannot counter every single threat and solely use spell-based card advantage (FoF/TFK/AK/etc.), we have to base our card advantage, in part, on board control. Modern MUC is based upon the card advantage created by massive board control. MUC shouldn't be trying to win the early game by countering every single threat and using pinpoint removal because it can't. It really seeks to crop the most relevant early game cards from an opponent (buying time), and then drop a card-advantage producing board controller.

When I play MUC in Legacy, I realize I'm only going to be able to counter 1-2 of the most relevant threats in the first couple turns, and that I'm simply buying time to find the card that gives me actual card advantage while neutralizing board threats. Once I've neutralized the board, I just build up card advantage through FoF and my artifacts, and then flood my opponent with my superior resources.

With that in mind, after extensive play, this is the artifact-bomb centric MUC I use:

1 Morphling
1 Meloku

2 Force Spike
4 ManaLeak
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Echoing Truth

3 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction

3 Quicksand
3 Stalking Stones
4 Polluted Delta
15 Island

I'll explain my choices in order of functional relevance.

Board Control--

Vedalken Shackles: The MVP of the deck. If you play against a creature deck (with the exception of a reanimator concept), then Shackles is the goto card. It is without question the most potent tool in MUC. I've found running 3 to be a minimum, but also optimal number, including a decent cantrip/CA base. There is no substitute for this card. It is all too often so relevant that you might even call this a Vedalken Shackles deck. Despite what some of its critics might say, this card is not too slow for the format. MUC definitely has the tools to live to turns 3, 4, and beyond. With a solid island count (you cannot drop below 16 Island/Fetches) this card can not only begin trading cards immediately and stabilizing, but it also serves as a great win condition.

I will admit, it takes a great deal of practice to maximally use this card. Assuming you know the rulings about the card's targeting/resolution, you will constantly need to think about what it can do to change the state of the board, and where you hope to end up with this card. Wonderfully, this card be very powerful in multiples, but I'd argue the 2nd (and especially the 3rd) has diminishing returns.

Nevinyrral's Disk: The best board clearer in the game. My testing has pointed me again and again to this classic. Other board clearers either don't match Nevi's mana-efficiency or its card advantage and ability to clear ALL relevant board threats (with DSC as the exception). PK and EE are faster, yes, but they do not perform the function of a board clearer well enough. Use your counters and bounce to drop the Nevi's disk, not your PK/EE to use your counters. This is strict board control and card advantage.

While initially you would think this conflicts with Shackles, it very rarely does. It will be obvious to you after much testing that both artifact bombs play different roles, and that you'll be seeking one or the other. Additionally, we have bounce to save our artifacts. And, remember, you can always go: Disk's ability on the stack, in response (or before you pass priority) Echo your Nevi's. Yay...

Echoing Truth: Pound for pound, the best bounce available in Legacy. CoV, Repeal, and Boomerang are powerful as well, but unfortunately, they are not as good. CoV is excellent. It can save your own permanents, and it is very cheap. Unfortunately, it allows your opponent to bounce your relevant board controllers as well, and this is simply unacceptable. Boomerang is solid...hitting a land can be powerful. However, the double UU isn't always available (no matter what turn it is). The ability to hit land simply isn't worth the extra U requirement and the inability to hit multiples of the same name. Repeal is probably the next best option to echo. It is a fantastic card, but it can be fairly mana-intensive, which cannot be afforded for this function of the deck. Echo is a solid response to tokens and multiples obviously. It is nicely colored.

Bounce does give us some breathing room. Sometimes that tempo boost is what MUC needs. This card fills in a lot of gaps. At the worst, it is brainstormable and pitchable to FoW.

Other consideration: Back to Basics. B2B is a different form of board control, and it certainly acts like a time walk against decks that rely very heavily upon non-basics. In some metagames, it is ridiculously awesome...in others, it is lacking. If an opponent runs enough basics (and many decks do so to avoid Wasteland), then this card isn't worth the slot or investment. This is a strong sideboard card.

Permission--No longer is it the primary control feature of the deck. It is the smoothing element that hits nearly everything in a format. These are timewalks. I find 12 is the bare minimum number of counters MUC can run, and 18 is really the maximum. These will last 4-6 counter slots should be based around your metagame.

Force of Will: No explanation required.

Counterspell: No explanation required.

Mana Leak: Mana Leak is strictly superior in the early game to Rune Snag (and probably any of the other available permission options). It is a hardcounter for several turns, and it fills in a permission gap. This is a minimum 2-of...I prefer to see 4 in my testing. Do remember: mana to permission efficiency DOES matter, and mana leak is fairly efficient. It does lose some of its late game, but I find it still useful even on turn 10 all too often.

Force Spike: The little counter that could. MUC still can have some early game counters left in it (the metagame isn't Vintage fast). I prefer Force Spike to Daze simply because I can't afford to miss a land drop, ever. It is brainstorm fodder and pitchable to FoW. You will still be surprised how many times you'll use it even in the late game.

Other spells to consider: Delay, Remand, Misdirection, Logic knot (yeah, it can be fairly good), Daze. With the exception of Logic Knot, these counterspells are tempo spells. They are not true always strictly permission unfortunately. This deck needs true permission to eliminate threats. I find Daze would be most playable in general, but the land drop does matter. MisD can also be an fantastically good card against specific decks/cards, but unfortunately, it lacks versatility and all too often just sits in your hand.



Draw--MUC has access to both card quality and advantage spells, and obviously, it should use them. Ideally, you want to open a hand with a cantrip to guarantee land drops, and you want to mid-game Chain FoF/Cantrip.

Fact or Fiction: The best card advantage in Legacy. It gives you the choice along the spectrum of card quality and quantity. It has the ability to capitalize off opponent error and the use of the secret knowledge of your hand. This is a 4-of...no question. Chaining FoF's together is exactly what MUC does in the mid-late game, and it is part of stabilizing.

Brainstorm: I hated bringing this down to 3. I believe if you run blue, you should be using this card. It is ridiculous, and I'm not even going to take the time to explain the comparative gains of seeing 3 cards. I'll be honest though, I don't like to brainstorm without a fetchland. Running 3 means that I'm more likely to have a fetch available. This could easily goto 4, but it would be at the cost of impulse, which is a guaranteed dig.

Impulse: This card is a brainstorm+fetchland in one. All too often you are just digging for your artifact-bomb. This card does it for you. This also bypasses CotV@1

The other consideration: Thirst for Knowledge. A powerful, powerful card with the right deck. Add 3-4 Seat of the Synod and CoTV, and I think it is a must run. My build tends to want to dig FOR the artifacts...pitching is not always best. Additionally, Seat does not work well with other disruption pieces (B2B, Nevi's, EE@0, PK@0), and it can be wastelanded.

In any case, your mana-base and cantrip/draw engine are connected to each other.


Creatures--The more and more I play an artifact-centric MUC, the more I find that my creatures are not the best win conditions. Creatures, without question, are the oddest part of MUC. They are dissynergistic with board clearers, they are mana intensive, and they are generally not very powerful in blue. MUC's win conditions are at their best when their are either free (or not casted during your mainphases, like Stalking Stones), part of the control game plan in the first place (shackles), or allow you to switch between and fill multiple roles.

I find four relevant creature spells that allow you to do the latter: Morphling, Meloku, Psychatog, and Rainbow Efreet.

The most important thing to remember is that your creatures exist primarily as a filler to your Shackles, not the other way around. The majority of games should be won on the back of your shackles, not your actual creature spells. Your creature spells should be filling the roles that shackles cannot.

For now, I don't feel it is necessary to explain these creatures. It is obvious that they have fairly different functions and are better or worse against different decks. Shackles and Stalking stones do a lot for you, these creatures can be excellent at filling in the niche.

In addition, I will have to say that my testing has shown Ophidian not worth the slot. It is a great card in the right metagame, but it does not belong in a creature and removal heavy environment like Legacy. When it is active, it is easy to see where this card is just amazing (much like LoA). But, I ask you to look at the less obvious aspect of Phid: the times in which it is not actually better than other cards that could take its slot and the spells that could have been cast instead. To be oversimplistic: I look at it as a choice between Disk and Phid, and I'll take Disk anyday.


Mana Base--Always important. Keep it heavy island (shackles), at or above 24 count, and not too heavily fetch based (you still need to drop lands even in mid and late game). In my mind, it is all about the utility of your extra land slots. The slots seem relatively obvious. I could easily see different MUC variations running Wasteland, Seat of the Synod, 6 fetches, 1-of Duals for splashes, and even Winding Canyons. My version keeps it fairly simple.

The card I don't like: Chrome Mox. Not only is it terrible in multiples, dies to SO much hate (including your own board clearing), Chrome Mox is card disadvantage, so much of it that it can't be supported by MUC's gameplan. It does have synergy with TFK. It does give you 2-mana (bye bye Force Spike). I suggest that this could be a sideboard card in certain matches, but it is strictly awful in too many cases.


Cards I wanted to see maindeck, but instead went to sideboard:


Chalice of the Void: This is a hard card not to put in MUC. CotV at 0 and 1 are excellent (game-breaking perhaps against several decks). However, it needs a whole deck to be built around it mainboard. Brainstorm isn't as good with it, and more importantly, Nevi's Disk doesn't interact well with it. CotV also takes up your all important 2-drop (@1), which can be fundamental to MUC's success. It, unfortunately, is not a versatile card. Testing has shown it to be an amazing card against certain decks, and against others, I'd MUCh rather have a different card.

If I did run CoTV in MUC, then I'd use a mana-denial theme to create virtual card advantage by eliminating an opponent's card relevance (uncastable is as good as useless). I'd use this deck:

1 Morphling
1 Meloku

4 ManaLeak
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Powder keg
3 Echoing Truth

2 Back to Basics
4 CotV

4 Impulse
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction

2 Quicksand
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
15 Island

Back to Basics: Wow. Such an amazing card. How unfortunate that so many decks can play through it. It even hurts MUC's extra land slots. Depends on the metagame. Unlike CotV, this doesn't need a deck built around it. It can easily go 2-3 in a deck, just make sure your mana-base does get owned by it. Again, this is just not synergistic with Disk. In the end, I find Disk to be too important to accept a mana-denial theme. All too often CoTV and B2B come down too late to be relevant, and I'll need to clear the board anyways. Of course, B2B, if it isn't Main, should be in the sideboard.


As for the sideboard, I'm not in a position to say how you should tailor yours...If not already maindeck, Tormod's Crypt, LotV, Crucible, Boseiju, CoTV, B2B, Blasts, misD, and black or white splashes all seem viable in the right circumstances.


Conclusions:

Many people think MUC simply lacks good win conditions. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what MUC is doing. It isn't about jumping the gap from stabilization to win condition, it is about getting to stabilization in the first place. You might say that MUC only has a temporary amount of stabilized turns, and that is why you want to be able to so effectively switch roles. If this is the case, I advocate Psychatog. However, I really question whether you stabilized in the first place if the stabilization is really that temporary.

MUC in Legacy, unfortunately, cannot act like a mana drain powered BBS. MUC must control the game entirely, whether it is through mana-denial/CoTV or board control. My testing has shown the latter to be more effective.

The Deck is certainly skill intensive. I don't know of another deck that needs to think so thoroughly through the implications of both decks at the table to make decisions in the early game. It is, unfortunately, one of those decks with a high enough skill minimum (like solidarity) that it is often passed off as inviable simply because a great number of people cannot play the deck correctly.

The lovely aspect of MUC is that it can compete against nearly everything (given a skilled player). It has tools that are fairly versatile and a gameplan that molds around the opponent's deck. While control decks are definitionally metagame dependant decks, as they seek be to be interactive (in virtue of a more reactive strategy), MUC has the most potential to be a universal control deck than any other control deck I've used. It can interact with nearly any deck, and it keeps a generally high level of card quality and advantage against most any archetype. Having relevant and higher card quality and advantage is exactly what wins games.

[Bahamuth]

Wow that sure was a long post. I really like Disk and i certainly will try it out. I like the Synergy with the mainboard bounce. I have some questions:

I might have missed it, but in the whole post you don't mention why you play the single Meloku instead of another Morphling and the Stalking Stones. Personally I don't see why Stalking Stones are really needed. It seems rather useless as another kill, and it seems too slow to make a difference in the aggro MU.

Also, I'd like to see your sideboard.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

yes Why not playing mishras instead!? On the draw it is a Lakey awnser...

[thefreakaccident]

because sometimes we like to use a little card called back to basics... which is why the mana base is the way it is.

[C.P.]

because sometimes we like to use a little card called back to basics... which is why the mana base is the way it is.

Even under B2B, it is just as good as Quicksand in most cases, and It also trade with gooses. I have not played the deck for 3 month or so so I'm not very familiar with recent deck list, but If you still Run Quicksand, Factories are actually worth consideration. Better than Stalking Stones, for sure.

My old list, which you can find somewhere on this thread, is traditional and runs Phids, though.

[Maximus04]

"As the relevance and power of your counter-base deceases in relation to the tempo of your opponent's relevant threatbase (or as the fundamental turn of the format becomes faster and faster),"

This is an excellent point 4eak and you eloquently made some very well placed points about this deck being very skill dependent and how counters are not as useful in this environment. The deck does have to adapt and it can't counter everything. This deck can't go card for card, and eventually you have to find a way to win by CA against a top decking opponent.

I just find it ironic that you say the format is getting faster and you suggest a board clearer that won't come online till turn 5. Any aggro deck will eat you alive, even if you have bounce. Shackles comes online turn 4 at the quickest, but your early game is quite bismal. I think Disk is great in a much slower environment, but you have to have an answer to a turn 1 Lackey, Dark Ritual into god knows whats, Mongoose, Belcher, EtW, and Tendrils.

I agree, your MB bounce will help deal with this, plus Force Spike, but how many times do you see Force Spike dead in your hand? The whole reason we moved to Spell Snare was that it never was dead, yes I know it's not to good against Goblins but, it makes up by being AMAZING against any other deck in the format. It's never dead in your hand, can you say the same with Force Spike?

Fact or Fiction is amazing, but as you said in your opening statement the format is TOO fast. I would love to run 4 FoF in MUC, but you need quicker cantrips to answer the decks. Would you rather have an early brainstorm or mid-late game FoF in your opening hand? I find myself siding down to 2 FoF game 2 and 3 against many decks because I need answers, not slow CA.

Why are you playing Meloku? Wasn't it agreed that you should NEVER waste your counters for spot removal? The whole power of Morphling was it's ability to be untargetable, with it's strength of becoming a 5/6 with damage on the stack. The format is shifting to StP to handle Gofy b/c Bolts/Chain of lightenings just can't handle the the wanker.

I know you think Quicksands/Stalking stones are great in handling many matchups, but the I never found either up to my standards since they usually just stop goblins, whens the last time you were able to handle a mongoos or gofy with those cards. They are just asking to be wastelanded, and you loose the power of B2B. Which should be a MD of atleast 1 since aggro control is shaping up to be the strongest decks in the format right now.

This is nothing personal, but the whole reason MUC became hybrid was to answer fast aggro and sure up it's combo matchup. If you feel that Disk is the answer, then I won't be able to convince you. This deck is the closest thing to Draw Go control as this format will see and tapping out turn 4 leaves me feeling vulnerable with a VERY bitter taste in my mouth.

Nihil, the difference from UW standstill and UwBS is that I don't tap out turn 2, and there is no reason for me to do so.

Oh yeah, I was at Orgins this weekend and there was a lackluster legacy turnout, I thought that was the place to be this weekend to prep for GenCon next month. If you are running the Uw version then you should run COP:Red out of the side. You'll never be able to handle the burn out of Red Death, Burn, Boros, and Zoo. I pulled 3rd though, a shame there weren't more people there so people would respect the hybrid version.

[4eak]

I might have missed it, but in the whole post you don't mention why you play the single Meloku instead of another Morphling and the Stalking Stones

Yeah, I didn't give an explicit enough answer...

Stalking Stones is just a usual goto choice. I look at it as being much less mana intensive. But, frankly, I switch between stones and Mishra's all the time. I could easily see why one would choose Mishra's instead. Let's just switch for now.

As for actual creature spells....I'll start with what I originally said:


The most important thing to remember is that your creatures exist primarily as a filler to your Shackles, not the other way around. The majority of games should be won on the back of your shackles, not your actual creature spells. Your creature spells should be filling the roles that shackles cannot.

The more and more you play this deck, the more you realize how fundamental Shackles is to the deck (and, oddly enough 3 is plenty). Shackles not only acts as control, but frankly, it is a cheap and fantastic win condition. Shackles stabilizes and lets you switch from the control to aggro role all by itself...creature spells are generally less efficient and less versatile for the slot.

It is only in the cases in which shackles, counters, nevi's, and echo are not relevant enough that I really need my creatures. The most important aspect of creature spells in MUC is that they allow you to switch between and fill multiple roles. In most cases, creatures fill in the gaps where shackles cannot go.

What roles must creature spells fill that shackles cannot? Here are some basic points to cover (I'm sure we could find more):

1. Blocking untargetable creatures (Nimble Mongoose is the usual culprit)
2. Dealing with too many creatures on the board to trade fast enough
3. Winning in a few turns (if you need to win now)
4. Defeating creatureless decks (pretty much any creature can fill this role, although 3. matters here as well often enough)
5. An opponent has too much board control, eliminating the ability to use shackles. For example, they can sacrifice them in response to targeting (this goes in conjunction with 2.). This could be split into pin-point and mass removal.

I said there were 4 relevant creatures (that I've seen so far) to MUC. I'll explain why each can be viable, and why they are functionally different cards. Again, creature spells in MUC exist to supplement and curb the weak spots of Shackles. How do they meet the needs of the above and more?

Morphling: Meets 1, 3, 4, and most importantly 5. Morphling is fairly difficult to kill. Pin-point can rarely kill him, although board clearing effects will own him (counters/bounce help against this). Obviously, his P/T is versatile, although very mana intensive. He is a staple, but he isn't the end-all be all creature.

Meloku: Meets 1, almost exclusive and very importantly 2, often the best at 3, 4, and against "target opponent sacrifices a creature" even 5 (Pox perhaps). I think people underestimate this card. It is very easy (in my mind) to see where this card sucks, but I think it requires more experience to see where this card is irreplaceable. He can save land (this does matter), he chump blocks SO easily, he slows a swarm down, and he can even switch roles (end step of opponent usually) from Control to Aggro in a flash. This card does things Morphling simply can't, and because of that, it earned my 2nd creature slot. Remember: creatures are the utility cards that supplement your shackles. Meloku does this.

Psychatog: 1, most importantly 3, 4, and sometimes (but usually not) 5. Cheap, and without a doubt, one of the best ways to win a game in 1 turn. It turns card advantage into tempo directly. He is a finisher that can also chump block fairly well. His black cost shouldn't be problematic if you build your mana base with it in mind.

Rainbow Efreet. 1, 3, 4, undeniably the best at 5. For mass-board control features, he does what Morphling cannot, and does not require the use of card expenditure. Efreet is also cheap to cast, although he can be mana intensive to use. He chump blocks very, very well...damage on the stack->phase.

It is important to note that these creatures CAN be 1-of's....Creature spell redundancy is NOT necessary to MUC. We have way too much card advantage and quality to require ourselves to run 3-4 of a creature.

So, we'll change the deck up (and I'll give a very general SB for now...I think SB is just too metagame dependent to be so specific):

1 Morphling
1 Meloku

2 Force Spike
4 ManaLeak
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Echoing Truth

3 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction

3 Quicksand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
14 Island

General SB (meaning: you need to change this according to your local meta or what you calculate to show up in the meta):
4 Tormod (I prefer this to Leyline for now)
4 Blast (this can easily goto 6)
3 B2B
4 Chalice (a bomb against combo)

I like Stifle alot too.....eh...=)...my SB changes constantly.

Moving on:


just find it ironic that you say the format is getting faster and you suggest a board clearer that won't come online till turn 5. Any aggro deck will eat you alive, even if you have bounce. Shackles comes online turn 4 at the quickest, but your early game is quite bismal. I think Disk is great in a much slower environment, but you have to have an answer to a turn 1 Lackey, Dark Ritual into god knows whats, Mongoose, Belcher, EtW, and Tendrils.

Yup. Sure is. I said the format is getting faster, so counters aren't as useful. I hope I didn't say that counters were the same thing as board control. The point is that you can't pin-point remove or counter all relevant things in such a fast metagame, this means you simply have to move to mass removal to maintain control and stabilize. This does not make mass-removal inviable, actually, it makes it the only viable answer. That is the point.

What I mean to say is that as slower metagames become faster, the original absolute counter->stabilize cannot exist, even as we change the counter-base to become more tempo-based permission. Because of this shift in the metagame, MUC is forced to use mass-board control. MUC is board-control centric in order to stabilize (posted this in my first thread).

Stabilizing is about removing all threats on the board, and having actually relevant card advantage (relevant often meaning more control in your hand than they have threats). Since we can't pin-point remove/counter our way into stabilization, we must use mass-board control.

Additionally, I can never stress this enough, you have to learn to use your life total as a resource as mono-blue. Don't be scared to goto 1 life...it happens. Most games you'll win at 10ish life. MUC players need to be thinking several turns ahead.

Using mass-board control as late as turn 4 or 5 is quite viable, even in this fast of an environment. Counters and bounce let you easily live to do these things, and most often, once you drop your artifact bomb, you stabilize right there.


The whole reason we moved to Spell Snare was that it never was dead, yes I know it's not to good against Goblins but, it makes up by being AMAZING against any other deck in the format. It's never dead in your hand, can you say the same with Force Spike?

Sit down and play the deck. Force spike remains relevant even late game. Spell snare is good, but it certainly is limited (in a different way than Force spike obviously), and has the same degree of relevancy problems. The difference in my experience: force spike is just a better early game card, and it does better along the CC-tempo curves...and the early game matters more. Of course, force spike isn't always necessary.


Fact or Fiction is amazing, but as you said in your opening statement the format is TOO fast. I would love to run 4 FoF in MUC, but you need quicker cantrips to answer the decks. Would you rather have an early brainstorm or mid-late game FoF in your opening hand? I find myself siding down to 2 FoF game 2 and 3 against many decks because I need answers, not slow CA.

Do you play your shackles and disks correctly? Do you play from the mindset of dropping the artifact bomb? If you do, then you'll see why FoF is still an auto 4-of...If you are having a hard time staying alive, it has more to do with you using the wrong answers in the first place (not using disk and shackles enough). FoF is a stabilizing center-piece.


I know you think Quicksands/Stalking stones are great in handling many matchups, but the I never found either up to my standards since they usually just stop goblins, whens the last time you were able to handle a mongoos or gofy with those cards. They are just asking to be wastelanded, and you loose the power of B2B. Which should be a MD of atleast 1 since aggro control is shaping up to be the strongest decks in the format right now.

If the metagame calls for B2B, then obviously you should change these out. B2B isn't an auto-include though...The mana base is easily changed. And, for Quicksand, it might be worth including even with B2B in the board.


This is nothing personal, but the whole reason MUC became hybrid was to answer fast aggro and sure up it's combo matchup. If you feel that Disk is the answer, then I won't be able to convince you. This deck is the closest thing to Draw Go control as this format will see and tapping out turn 4 leaves me feeling vulnerable with a VERY bitter taste in my mouth.

Test it out. I've tried many configurations...Disk still fills the need the best. I've tried to explain that mass removal is everything to the control deck because we can't pin-point control. Disk is the best at this, try it! =)

peace,
4eak

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think Piracy Charm should go into this deck!

It kills scary things like: Lakey, Untreshed Werbear, Confidant, Welder, usw...
And it will be never dead even against combo.

What is your gameplan against Lakey on the draw?
Disk? lol! Shackels? lol! Only FoW! But You have to mulligan to FoW and then it is card disadvantage... All that for a 1cc 1/1

So peaople doesnt prepair for it so the threshplayer think:
Oh he plays MUC so i should kill him fast and drop some early threats because later they get harder to resolve...

So what do you think it is wroth the slot!? I think it is!

[slobad23]

Piracy charm does not kill an "un-threshed" mongoose because you can not target it.

Force of Will and Quicksand deal with lackey on the draw.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Damn you ar right i mean Werbear

[4eak]

I think Piracy Charm should go into this deck!

It kills scary things like: Lakey, Untreshed Mongoos, Confidant, Welder, usw...
And it will be never dead even against combo.

I've tried it out. I have to say it can be good (instant discard is powerful), and it remains versatile. I've certainly used the card in my sideboard before. It hasn't been good enough to go maindeck for me though.

As for the creatures it can kill...Lackey is really the only major problem in that list. I feel much more comfortable against the others (although, bob is obviously very dangerous, it is also very difficult to make really top shelf decks that use him). Oh, and mongoose is untargetable (so no charm).

So, I'll answer the timeless Legacy question...What answer does this deck have to 1st turn Lacky?

Permanant answers:
Piracy Charm
Force Spike
Daze
Force of Will
StP (if you splash)
Mishra's Factory

Temporary answers and Time walks (buys you at least one turn or more):
CoV/Unsummon/Echo/Boomerang/Repeal
Quicksand (nobody swings into quicksand)
Trickbind/Stifle

No matter how you build MUC, you are going to struggle with a 1st turn lackey. This isn't just my build. The difference between my build and others is that: even after lackey connects, I live long enough to clear an entire board. Relying exclusively upon pin-point, 1 for 1 control is not the answer.


What is your gameplan against Lakey on the draw?
Disk? lol! Shackels? lol! Only FoW! But You have to mulligan to FoW and then it is card disadvantage... All that for a 1cc 1/1

First, my build does run a decent set of answers to Lackey: Mishra's/Echo/Force Spike/FoW in my deck. Clearly, on the draw, Lackey can be difficult. You don't need to Mulligan for FoW, there are more features of the deck to consider that can help you stabilize against lackey. Mulligans go on a hand by hand, deck by deck basis and not necessarily on whether or not you have FoW.

Additionally, MUC really can delay the game long enough to stabilize, even after a Lackey connect. Now, if you talk about a perfect Goblin hand on the play vs. random MUC hand on the draw, sure, I'll gladly say Goblin wins (and what deck would honestly say otherwise?). However, given average hands (if you play 50 matches), MUC does have a decent game against Goblins.

With that said, if you want to play MUC (rather than landstill), and you don't feel comfortable enough with the current answers to Lackey, then sure, I would advocate the use of Piracy Charm.

I think what is misunderstood is that counters and single-target board control like Piracy Charm or StP are all doing the same thing: 1 for 1 trades. The only difference is that single target board-controllers have the ability to be played after the spell is cast, thus drawing out the mana-curve, and relaxing the number of spells the controller is forced to play each turn. Now, if you think this is all that is required for a control player to win, then you actually think the metagame is slower than I do...I'm saying that the metagame is so fast that the exclusive use of pin-point, 1 for 1 control cards can't deal with the average quantity of relevant threats, and thus we are forced into massive board control positions.

I have certainly argued that MUC needs to blend the use of both 1 for 1's and mass board control. My only issue is that people fail to see why MUC must use mass board control if it hopes to stabilize. You have to do what it takes to get to the massive board control position, and that might include things like StP and Piracy charm.

My only warning is this: be careful how much you are going to splash, else you will not be playing MUC, you'll be playing Landstill or 3-4C control. It is a hop, skip and a jump to go from MUC to Landstill, and we need to consider the implications of splashing. Why? Because, the MUC deckbuilder may find his deck evolving into something that isn't MUC the more he splashes, and the MUC player is forced into answering the question: Why play MUC over landstill? And, unfortunately, answers such as: "I <3 MUC 4ever, whether or not it is the best control deck" might fail to answer this question in a relevant manner.

How do you answer that question?

In my opinion, MUC can be developed without evolving into Landstill. Some of the posts on this thread have simply been developing into Landstill. This is a reason I'm not going anywhere near putting StP in MUC. All blue or just go landstill.

Piracy Charm is blue =), so certainly it is a consideration for MUC. I don't know if it solves the overarching problem I've presented though.


peace,
4eak

[Maximus04]

Why play MUC over landstill?

Thats very simple mate;
1) Shackles
2) Back to Basics
3) Consistent mana base
4) Morphling

I completely agree, you can't go 1 for 1's all game. Eventually you have to use your CA to gain advantage over your opponent.

I have been playing MUC for a year and half. Do you not think I'd know if Disk is good or bad? I understand that you run bounce to stall till you can drop your artifact bombs. The problem is that they are not coming online quick enough. I know full well that my life total doesn't matter unless I am below 6 life and they run burn.

As I have said before, the splash was for stabilizing against quick aggro and improving your combo matchups. StP just stalls until Morphling/Shackles or Engineered Explosives comes online.

How do you suggest handling Solidarity? We have discussed all the options of how to handle first turn lackey and Soli throughout this thread.

How can you deny the strength of the splash? It you want to dismiss it as evolution to Landstill then sure. Though why would the white splash need to evolve anymore when it has solid game against the whole field?

Piracy charm is weak against most the field, it's too singularly minded. The card really only hits two cards in the field, Confident and Lackey. Werebear has been replaced with Goyf.

4eak, we are at two different conclusions with the same deck. Your build is a solid MUC deck(even if i think it's a little to slow), but I'd run 2 morphlings...trust me, with UGw Thresh(and other decks realizing StP is the best answer against the new fatties) back on the rise you'll be thankful you have the most efficient creature to date.

[Benie Bederios]

1 Morphling
1 Meloku

4 ManaLeak
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Powder keg
3 Echoing Truth

2 Back to Basics
4 CotV

4 Impulse
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction

2 Quicksand
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
15 Island


This list has 64 cards, is this correct I'm very curious in the CotV version of MUC.

[thefreakaccident]

challice really isn't all that great in MUC, seeing as you could never really place it at 2, and since your mana curve would generally increase due to its' inclusion, you will have a much tougher time answering 1cc threats. I know, even though I splashed red, sometimes I would still randomly loose to goblins with only 8 real 1st turn answers to Lackey (which is still a good amount)... I don't think challice is ever really that strong unless it can be powered out at 1 first turn, and even then I am still not a fan.

[4eak]

This list has 64 cards, is this correct I'm very curious in the CotV version of MUC.

Lol. Oops. That was a typo. Modify that list to -3 Echo and -1 Impulse. My original ran Chrome mox for 1st turn CoTV too.

challice really isn't all that great in MUC, seeing as you could never really place it at 2, and since your mana curve would generally increase due to its' inclusion, you will have a much tougher time answering 1cc threats. I know, even though I splashed red, sometimes I would still randomly loose togoblins with only 8 real 1st turn answers to Lackey (which is still a good amount)... I don't think challice is ever really that strong unless it can be powered out at 1 first turn, and even then I am still not a fan.

I agree. Chalice best fits in a deck that can drop it first turn and usually plays a mana curve at 3 or above (so you are likely to see 3Sphere as well basically). MUC really doesn't use Chalice very well. CotV does have an edge against combo, but that is really about it (this is why I see it as sideboard material in general). It is so unfortunate that CoTV@2 owns us.

I can't help but wonder if some people mistakenly think that CotV in Legacy MUC is nearly as good as CotV vintage MUC. While CotV at 0 and 1 are strong plays in Legacy, they are even more game breaking in Vintage. For CotV to come as close in power level in Legacy as it is in vintage, the Legacy deck would need to be consistently dropping CotV@2 without hosing itself. Because of this difficulty, I'm not exactly sure if CotV (at least main deck) is the right call for MUC in Legacy.


I completely agree, you can't go 1 for 1's all game. Eventually you have to use your CA to gain advantage over your opponent.

I have been playing MUC for a year and half. Do you not think I'd know if Disk is good or bad? I understand that you run bounce to stall till you can drop your artifact bombs. The problem is that they are not coming online quick enough. I know full well that my life total doesn't matter unless I am below 6 life and they run burn.

I'm not doubting your year and half with MUC. Your deck is well designed, and obviously you've put thought and testing into it. But, I will disagree from experience and say that my deck does come online quick enough; I would suggest playing it for a while before saying it doesn't come online quick enough.

After using your list, I'm still finding that it doesn't produce enough CA, and that after a certain threshold of relevant threats, your build is unable to stabilize (relevant CA that will overcome opponent tempo and topdecks with no relevant threat to face us). So, while the deck does a good job of reaching up to the stabilization point, it is somewhat lacking in the ability to actually stabilize. I will say that the StP splash is very relevant in this respect, and I can certainly see why you would do it.

I'll just go through my experience with your deck.

1 - Tundra
2 - Plains
12- Island
4 - Flooded Strand
4 - Polluted Delta

23 Mana Sources, 8 of which are fetch...This is actually very low for MUC, although you keep a low curve. I felt more comfortable at 6 Fetch with your deck, in part because of life concerns, but mainly because I wanted higher land count in mid and late game, and you only had 23 to start. Your high cantrip count did well for us, and brainstorm was an absolute house with so many fetchlands.

2 - Morphling

We'll agree to disagree here. =)...Although, 2x Morphling is very, very strong. I also think 2 actual creature spells is the correct amount.

4 - Brainstorm
3 - Fact or Ficton
4 - Impulse

As you run a lower CC curve, and less land, this seems appropriate. I will say that since you only run 5-7 actual CA cards, you should really consider FoF at 4. Absolute stabilization requires actual card advantage in hand (usually), and FoF is simply unbeatable in this respect. I didn't try it, but I would probably drop an Impulse for the 4th FoF.

One for One Control:

4 - Counterspell
4 - Manaleak
4 - Force of Will
3 - Spell Snare

4 - Swords to Plowshare

15 Counters + 4 StP made for some strong spell-based control. Spell snare felt much stronger in your build because of your CC curve and the reliance upon 1 for 1's because of the lack of mass board control. It is easy to 1 for 1 up to the point of stabilization with your deck, and I appreciate such a strong early game.

1 - Back to Basics
2 - Vedalken Shackles
2 - Engineered Explosives

EE never goes above 2...and that really limited how this deck can play. It was good against the early game (but I found this deck already had a strong early game in the form of StP and 15 counters). EE against tokens is really beautiful. Also, why don't you have Academy Ruins in a deck with EE?

With so much draw, your deck did decently in finding Shackles, but I kept wishing I had 3 in the deck to find it faster (too many times was shackles the one card I wanted).

Overall, you run a more tempo based MUC, sacrificing efficiency and card strength for smaller control pieces which produces a good early game. This is to be expected, as I explained in my initial post. And, I must say, I enjoyed StP a great deal.

From the differences in our deck, I guess we disagree on the duration of the stages of MUC:

1.) Trading one for one's which buys you enough tempo and time to start....
2.) Generating CA
3.) Repeat 1 and 2 until you are not facing a relevant threat and you have relevant CA.
4.) Switch to the aggro role.

Your version is designed to be stronger at (1), but is also much weaker at (2). This means that even though you have a higher probability of successfully completing (1), you are stuck doing (2) so long that your deck has difficulty reaching (3).

So, yes I agree that (1) is not possible without completely changing the deck scheme by either a.) moving closer on the spectrum to a tempo/disruption deck, b.) splashing the deck so much that you are turning into Landstill or 3c Control, or c.) foregoing it to some extent for mass board control.

At some point, a.) is just not playing control, it is fish. It never truly stabilizes in the same way a control deck does, it simply switches to aggro. Your deck is moving (very slowly) towards a.). This doesn't mean you don't play a control deck, it just means you've opted for a less CA based control deck for a more 1 for 1, tempo oriented control deck.

This does not mean that StP can't be used to bring us to the point of stabilization though...

Anyways, let us look through the differences in our decks:

+4 Fetches, +1 dual land, +2 plains, -2 Island, -3 Quicksand, -4 Mishra's Factory

+1 Morphling, -1 Meloku

+1 Brainstorm, +1 Impulse, -1 FoF

+3 Spell Snare, -2 Force Spike

+4 Swords to Plowshare, -3 Echo

+1 Back to Basics, -1 Vedalken Shackles

+2 Engineered Explosives, -3 Nevi's Disk

In pure spells, you run +4 more early game control cards than I do...Include my land base, and my deck has more early game control cards than yours. My deck does have a good early game (it just might be hard to see if you haven't played with it). The difference is that you've sacrificed a late game, and the ability to stabilize as effectively as my version.



Thats very simple mate;
1) Shackles
2) Back to Basics
3) Consistent mana base
4) Morphling

.....As I have said before, the splash was for stabilizing against quick aggro and improving your combo matchups. StP just stalls until Morphling/Shackles or Engineered Explosives comes online.....

How can you deny the strength of the splash? It you want to dismiss it as evolution to Landstill then sure. Though why would the white splash need to evolve anymore when it has solid game against the whole field?


My discussion concerning MUC's splashes evolving into Landstill or 3c Control wasn't directed at you in particular ;P

As for the reasons you listed, many landstill and 3c control decks do use shackles, and morphling is really a non-issue. However, you might argue that MUC uses both shackles and creatures more effectively. The primary difference between MUC and landstill/3c control is one thing: the latter splashes for other colors.

To be fair, I've been open to a "splash" as evident in my posts. And, I think StP is a powerful card to splash for...But, in my mind, we are walking a slippery slope. At what point are we splashing so much that the deck is no longer MUC? I think it is evident that splashing puts us in an odd position in which we may eventually start splashing because otherwise the deck "couldn't be as effective if it were merely MUC".

I'll take the plunge, and in an attempt to avoid the slippery slope altogether, for now I'm just going to stick to straight Mono Blue.

However, if I were going to use StP, it would look something like this:

-=25 Land=-
1 Tundra
1 Plains
10 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Quicksand
4 Mishra's Factory (could go down to 3)

-=10 Draw=-
4 - Brainstorm
4 - Fact or Ficton
2 - Impulse

-=2 Versatile, Niche-Filling, Shackles-Supplementing Creatures=-
1 Morphling
1 Meloku (;P)

-=17 1-for-1's=-
4 - Swords to Plowshare
4 - Counterspell
4 - Manaleak
4 - Force of Will
1 - Echoing Truth (eh, 3rd impulse?)

-=6 Mass Board Control=-
3 - Vedalken Shackles
3 - Nevi's Disk (this could afford to got 2)

peace,
4eak

[thefreakaccident]

Hey guys, its' me again!

I have been trying to find a good side board for my red splashed version.

My meta has recently shifted from heavy control and goblins compliment to heavy aggro-control compliment all the way around with random 1 ofs all accross the spectrum.

the meta looks like:

3-4 gro
1-2 goblins
1-2 pikula/braids
1-2 survival (all different varients)
1-2 funkbrew
1-2 landstill
2-3 fish
5-8 random homemade decks (their own inventions, pretty solid rogue decks might I add).

If you guys could post a solid side boaard for that meta please feel free to post one.

[4eak]

How do you suggest handling Solidarity?

There are two solutions to Solidarity. Drop bombs that act as prisons or sit back and disrupt the combo itself in stackwars.

Bombs:
Meddling Mage (not thrilling, but better than nothing)
Tef (slow, but powerful)
CotV
Arcane lab

Stackwars:
Stifle/Trickbind (puts pressure on their remands or even Time Walks on fetches)
MisD
Chrome Mox + Ophid (a turn 2 ophid is decent--CA can put you over the top)

There isn't much to explain for the bombs, but there are misconceptions about the stack in general (as if MUC had no shot at the stack). I'm not saying this is in MUC's favor at all, but I also think the vast majority of Solidarity players have not played against talented MUC players. And, because of the generally limited experience in these matchups, the solidarity player really has an upperhand (assuming both don't play this matchup often)--but this upperhand is in part due to poorly played MUC. Although, I will admit, even after heavy sideboarding, MUC is going to have a very rough game.

The matchup does vary with your MUC build. Heavy counter MUC builds (16+) are going to have an easier time. If solidarity is that much of a concern, then you'll need to tune your MUC differently (or not play it at all).

The trick to beating Solidarity (which can be difficult as MUC) is knowing what resources the solidary player needs and putting pressure on that weakpoint. You need to be a strong solidarity player to really know howto beat solidarity in the first place. I look at Solidarity as a 4 piece combo.

Card Quality Cantrips
Card Advantage (Gives you gas)
The Mana Engine (land, reset, high tide)
Win Conditions and assorted friends (Brainfreeze, Remand, Cunning Wish)

Generally the mana engine is the best thing to attack. Hitting 1 or 2 tides can be somewhat devastating. Hitting resets/turn is common, but be mindful of how the solidarity player uses his land and floats mana. Hitting draw spells can be deadly as well. Hitting the actual Brainfreeze is fairly complicated, and depending on your hand, it could be the right thing to do.

This is a matchup that takes practice. Seriously, nothing improves your knowledge of the future action trees like sitting down and playing a few dozen games.

I will say that the lack of a proper clock can become quite evident in this matchup. Once Solidarity breaches 3-4 land, the MUC player is in the red zone.

It helps even more to know your opponent (yet another MUC foothold).

Overall, I think this is a match that tends to be exaggerated in Solidarity's favor. In reality, MUC does well on the stack, and it isn't as if Solidarity truly dominates the stack against MUC as some would suggest (solidarity still has to work for it).


peace,
4eak

[raharu]

Repeal = crap. Try Wipe Away/ Boomerang. also, Boomerang + Isochron Scepter = landlock on turn 2, running on turn 3. that should help to stall out for the long game we need. Just a new thought for an old archtype.

Also stops solidarity for a while if you can force their bounce. Situational, but counter wars are always situationaly

[4eak]

Repeal = crap. Try Wipe Away/ Boomerang. also, Boomerang + Isochron Scepter = landlock on turn 2, running on turn 3. that should help to stall out for the long game we need. Just a new thought for an old archtype.

Also stops solidarity for a while if you can force their bounce. Situational, but counter wars are always situationaly

I don't know to what post you are responding, but I'll go with it.

Why is Repeal not a great card for MUC?

There are a few ways to evaluate the card. The first is mana efficiency.

Assuming a cantrip effect costs U, X is the cost of our bounce effect. The point at which X is greater than the cost for a standard bounce spell with a similar effect (Boomerang, although it hits land) is the point that this card becomes mana inefficient for its effect.

2U or below makes it a worthy card. Anything you wish to bounce with CC above 2 is the point at which Repeal is actually not as mana efficient. The closer X is to zero, the more efficient the card becomes...The moxen in vintage demonstrate the efficiency of this card by breaking that fundamental 1 mana for 1 card ratio, allowing you essentially draw for free and increase your storm by 2. Clearly, Repeal is not nearly as relevant in this sense. Legacy MUC won't be bouncing moxen, sometimes it will need to bounce much larger things. The mana inefficiency of this spell is problematic to its inclusion in MUC.

The other aspect I like to look at is: what is the purpose of bounce in MUC?

Bounce (in MUC) exists to Time Walk, or more specifically, to buy tempo. Buying tempo could be as simple as forcing them to recast a spell, and as powerful as the wiping away EtW tokens with Echo. Obviously, it isn't strictly removal.

Other bounce with a single cast cost have the benefit of predictable mana cost and gaining mana-based tempo. A 5cc permanent in play is wiped out by a 2cc bounce. My 2 mana bounce bought me a turn and 5 of my opponent's mana. If repeal was trying to hit that 5cc, I would have spent equivalent mana (6cc for bounce+draw), simply buying me a turn.

Bounce, like the actual card Time Walk, is really only at its best when you are casting other spells and doing other things with the tempo you've bought. Because of repeal's possibly prohibitive costs, it actually may prevent you from gaining any further tempo than just a turn. It isn't like you bounced a card and dropped a shackles with the extra mana you have...you usually tapped out to play that repeal, and thus you didn't gain mana-based tempo.

Now, if one would argue that repeal would never target something above 2cc, then it might be worth it. Additionally, because of the U cost (for the cantrip effect), it does come online a turn later than the average spell for each turn; this is assuming each player is maximally abusing the standard mana curve each turn (1, 2, 3, and so on). Meanwhile, other bounce spells are online and ready to gain tempo and at any point in the game.

And, as for the scepter....Isochron scepter really suffers from the Chrome Mox card disadvantage, is often unusable the turn you play it, is very susceptible to board control (including your own), and it requires the right 2cc card at the right time. Often times, it is more important that I just play my 2cc instant here and now to even survive. Scepter belongs in no-stick, not in MUC.




peace,
4eak

[Bahamuth]

4eak, I have a question about B2B in your build. Playing B2B in the sideboard, do you still think it's a good idea to run 3 Quicksand and 4 Mishra's Factory? And suppose my meta consists of a lot of Thresh/other aggro-control and Landstill, shouldn't the B2B be in the mainboard, and in what slots?

Thanks,
Bahamuth

[4eak]

4eak, I have a question about B2B in your build. Playing B2B in the sideboard, do you still think it's a good idea to run 3 Quicksand and 4 Mishra's Factory? And suppose my meta consists of a lot of Thresh/other aggro-control and Landstill, shouldn't the B2B be in the mainboard, and in what slots?

Short answer: Yes, it is still a good idea to run Quicksand and Mishra. In your case, B2B should definitely be mainboard, and Quicksand/Mishra could be the wrong metagame call.

Longer answer:

MUC runs one of the highest basic land counts of any archetype. B2B never hoses MUC, but it does hose other decks (alongside our permission). B2B is almost always an asymmetrical card, even in a build like mine. The point of B2B is to use mana-denial to decrease an opponent's card relevance (and playability), giving us virtual tempo (this is the point of a prison card). It slows the game down, creating more time between threats we must answer, giving us time to stabilize, and even allows us to out-tempo our opponents in many cases.

You would think that B2B might be an auto-include in every MUC build. But, this is a misunderstanding of the card. It is easy to see where B2B is good, but it is not so easy to see where it isn't. There are two things to consider for B2B to become useful:

1.) There must be a certain degree of favorability in the ratio of basics/non-basics found between MUC and the opponent for the asymmetry of B2B to become a viable mana-denial element.

B2B isn't necessarily worth running just because our opponent's basic/non-basic ratio is less favorable than ours. There must be a fairly large difference in the ratios for us to include B2B. If you only hit 5 out of 20 lands in their deck, then the mana-denial just wouldn't be worth it (too inefficient for the slot and mana). Add MUC's own ratio, and you'll need to see a large difference. Against many decks, especially those that run enough fetches/basics, the unfavorable non-basic ratio does not create enough tempo advantage to make B2B worth running. Thus, in many cases, the slot could have been put to better use.

Inevitably, this ratio is always in MUC's favor, just maybe not enough favor to warrant B2B. Even in my build, you are looking at 18 of 25 being entirely unaffected by B2B. And, even then, the non-basics I use are always the most useful in the early game, a time in which B2B isn't even on the table. By the time I choose to drop B2B, my non-basics have already lost their value to a large extent. Thus, in my case, B2B doesn't hose my mana base enough to matter. I still get the use of the non-basics when I really needed them the most, and therefore it is not actually 18/25--it is probably closer to a virtual 22/25. Additionally, the decks that I would even want to drop B2B against, my non-basics aren't even as useful to have in the first place. And, more importantly, in the cases in which I would even want to use B2B, the ratio of my basics/non-basics compared to my opponents is always very much in my favor, and the utility of denying them mana is astronomical. However, B2B does not strictly hinder MUC from running utility non-basics.

Of course, keeping a strict basic/fetch land-base in MUC allows B2B to become more and more attractive, creating better ratios. You would think these perfect ratios would create incentive to run pure basic/fetches, or only running non-basics that are strictly useful even within the context of B2B (just don't tap the quicksand, use it for removal if you anticipate it would be relevant); however, there are more things to consider.

So, the real question is:

2.) What degree of mana-denial will be relevant against a specific deck (and worth the slot/mana/tempo expenditures)? Not only is there a question of just the essential ratio of mana-denial created by B2B (which is so easily measured), but there is a question of the degree to which mana denial is even useful against the deck we play against (not so easily measured). While one opponent's 50/50 basic/nonbasic ratio vs. our 90/10 might be well worth it (given what shutting 50% of their mana-base's recurability would do to the deck, for the mere cost of 10% of our mana-base, a card slot, protection, disk-dissynergy, and 3 mana), a 50/50 vs 90/10 might not be worth it against other archetypes. Against different decks, different ratios will be required to allow B2B to become a viable card.

For example, against Goblins or affinity I would never want to see B2B in my hand. Even if these decks played pure non-basics (affinity does), these decks play so very, very effectively with limited mana sources that B2B would be the wrong card for the job, and board control (like disk) would obviously be much stronger. Mana denial does not stop their game plan enough to warrant the use of B2B. Instead, there are more relevant cards to consider. Essentially, there are matchups in which no favorable enough ratio exists to make B2B viable.

Against something like Landstill, however, dropping B2B is game-ending. It is devastating to them. Even if Landstill could manage a 70% basic ratio (which is never going to happen), you would still want to use B2B. Why? Landstill needs its mana-sources more than a deck like Goblins (which uses other tempo boosters). By taking out Landstill's mana-base, you just decreased their tempo by X%, where X is the percentage of non-basics they run. In this case, B2B has comparative advantage to all other cards...no other card will have even close to a permanent 30% decrease in an opponent's tempo for the cost of B2B, thus B2B is the card to run.

You are seeking the ratio for each deck at which B2B would deny enough mana (in relation to whatever you might be denied) to make it worth running. Determining that ratio is based on a deck per deck and a metagame per metagame basis.

Choosing whether or not to play B2B has everything to do with your meta; just make sure your metagame gives B2B comparative advantage over other cards that could be used in its place.

If your metagame would make proper use of B2B (landstill would be a perfect example), then it is clearly belongs mainboard. If you anticipate B2B being so instrumental, where you are facing matches where B2B wins games, then you will need to adjust your deck accordingly.

I don't find B2B to be game-breaking enough against the majority of the field for me to run it main. That may change (control decks do evolve alongside the meta). However, in the few matches I come across in which B2B owns my opponent, I definitely see it is as a powerful sideboard card. It is a metagame card, and I really only want it against certain decks. I want to drop B2B against control-type decks and rarely against anything else. If you play against a fast deck, B2B does too little too late. You'll find that you wished you would have saved your mana and used your card slots to deal with the relevant threats at hand, not dropping B2B.

Often times, the use of B2B is unnecessary, and often the wrong card to beat the deck in question. You need to understand what that mana-denial buys you against that deck. Just because a deck runs non-basics doesn't mean B2B is viable.

The vast majority of the time, even against certain aggro-control decks, I'd rather be running other cards.

As an addition, I use disk, and B2B doesn't mix very easily with it. I find disk to be more relevant to the game in terms of tempo, CA, and total board control, than B2B. However, when I do face decks that are completely hosed by B2B, I am glad I have it. In the cases that B2B does as much as disk, obviously, I'll run it. It can win games all by itself, and I do have bounce to save B2B if I must (plus, I get to untap non-basics ;P).

peace,
4eak

[Black Rain]

I agree that disk and shackles are the epitome of what mono blue needs to supplement it's control strategy. On paper they seem slow, but in functionality they do everything that counterspells can't clean up. They also put blue in a position for victory because they give blue what it wants which is a clear board.

[Illissius]

This is (fortunately or not) no longer as relevant, but wouldn't Gaea's Blessing actually be an excellent sideboard weapon against Solidarity here? Seems like it would quite simply take their inevitability away. Brain Freezing you for lots after a counterwar is no longer a viable strategy -- to kill you, they would have to go off fully, Freeze you multiple times, and then kill you manually with a draw spell after the last one. And a draw spell is something you are very capable of countering.

[4eak]

This is (fortunately or not) no longer as relevant, but wouldn't Gaea's Blessing actually be an excellent sideboard weapon against Solidarity here? Seems like it would quite simply take their inevitability away. Brain Freezing you for lots after a counterwar is no longer a viable strategy -- to kill you, they would have to go off fully, Freeze you multiple times, and then kill you manually with a draw spell after the last one. And a draw spell is something you are very capable of countering.

Gaea's would bastardize a sideboard. If Solidarity is that big of a threat in your area, then you should reconsider using MUC in the first place. Assuming you were going to play MUC, knowing that you were going against a solidarity-infested metagame, here are my thoughts:

I've never found Gaea's Blessing to be an answer to Solidarity. Yes, they'd need to freeze you several times and then force a draw. This won't be difficult for them. Countering the draw is improbable, mainly because by this stage, Solidarity has way too many resources to be beaten on the stack. In my experience, if solidarity is casting brainfreeze(s), you've already lost the game (although, I've seen exceptions). If MUC is going to have any control over the stack, it is best done in the early stages. The mana engine remains the best thing to hit.'

peace,
4eak

[raharu]

Any thought to a forest, four fetches, and using Quagnoth as a win-con?

Casting Cost 5G
Type Creature - Beast
Text Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.) Shroud (This permanent can't be the target of spells or abilities.) When a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard Quagnoth, return it to your hand.
Power/Toughness 4/5


Nice?

[4eak]

Any thought to a forest, four fetches, and using Quagnoth as a win-con?


Shroud is nice, and split second isn't necessary most of the time (flash would be nice though). I'd much rather have an Eternal dragon or Psychatog if I am splashing. I'd probably even taken Draining Whelk over Quagnoth.

Remember that your creatures exist to supplement your Shackles gameplan. Played correctly, you'll win most games without even casting a creature. Creatures fill in the gaps that shackles cannot. Generally, they'll be high utility creatures.

Morphling, Rainbow Efreet, and Meloku are in color, and they are simply better creatures with greater utility to supplement shackles more effectively.

peace,
4eak

[Gui]

Hi there!
Have a few questions about MUC, maybe you guys could help me

1) What do you usually use against affinities decks? I usually have flux sb, but i c lists here that don't...

2) What's better against burns: Chill or Blasts? Do you use blasts because its also useful against goblins?

3) Against Solidarity, isn't Stifle a good choice, as against every single combo decks?

4) The last thing: What about using Academy ruin MD to re-use Kegs, Disks, or even Tormods when they are MD ?

Well, I know it's quite low-level questions, but i'm new at MUC.dec, and wanna have some people's oppinion

Thanks ^^'

[porcupinetreeman]

Hi there!
Have a few questions about MUC, maybe you guys could help me

1) What do you usually use against affinities decks? I usually have flux sb, but i c lists here that don't...

2) What's better against burns: Chill or Blasts? Do you use blasts because its also useful against goblins?

3) Against Solidarity, isn't Stifle a good choice, as against every single combo decks?

4) The last thing: What about using Academy ruin MD to re-use Kegs, Disks, or even Tormods when they are MD ?

Well, I know it's quite low-level questions, but i'm new at MUC.dec, and wanna have some people's oppinion

Thanks ^^'

1) Affinity is a tough matchup if they have a quick start. One powder keg or disk will ruin them though. Also shackles is good if you have enough islands out. I dont think flux is worth the sb slot. You could run null rod, but thats not really worth the slot either.

2) I have been using 4 x Chill and 2 x BEB in my sideboard, but I have a lot of burn in my meta. Chill isn't amazing against goblins, but it does help.

3) Stifle won't help you vs solidarity. I'm not sure you can beat solidarity unless you have COTV with backup. Stifle isnt good against solidarity, but it is good against every other combo deck. I use Cotv instead of stifle in my sideboard, but then again, I also run Chrome mox.

4) I wouldn't run more than one ruins. I don't run it in my build because it has an anti-synergy with shackles.


Porcupinetreeman

[Clark Kant]

I really think this deck should be running Countertop and Spell Snare.

It can use them better than Thresh.

Countertop and Spell Snare can counter most of the key threats in the format, and you have FoW, Counterspell to pick up the slack for those that you can't.

[Silthyn]

My current, untested version:

// Lands
14 [TSP] Island (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [NE] Daze
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [US] Back to Basics
2 [SC] Stifle

I don't know if one extra Counterbalance or Top is better than, say, Powder Keg. Any ideas?

[SuckerPunch]

I would replace a single Spell Snare and the 2 Daze/Stifle for 3 Mana Leak. And I would cut a Counterbalance for the 4th Shackles. I don't think this is the right deck for Daze at all. But that's just me.

Otherwise, the list looks good.

[C.P.]

One of the most important thing in MUC is to never miss a land drop until you reach 6 mana or so. Mana development is crucial part of your game plan, and missing it means an uphill battle ahead of you. Daze messes your Mana develpment a bit too much to be played in this deck. I'd prefer Force spike or Disrupting Shoal if you want a free counter.

[Bahamuth]

My current, untested version:

// Lands
14 [TSP] Island (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [NE] Daze
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [US] Back to Basics
2 [SC] Stifle

I don't know if one extra Counterbalance or Top is better than, say, Powder Keg. Any ideas?

This list seems bad to me. Next to Brainstorm/Top you do not run any card advantage/quatily at all. To gain control, you must realise card advantage is a very importrant factor. FoF should be an auto-include, 3 at least.

Daze is bad in this deck. MUC is already struggling to keep up with the speed of the format, and you definately can't affort to lose any of your speed to Daze. Force Spike is much better.

I personally feel Powder Keg is a very bad board sweeper. You will notice the card often comes too late to make a difference in aggro matchups.

I also don't like Stife. Stife is too often an temporary solution. As this deck probably isn't planning to win the turn after you need your Stifle, I think it'd be best replaced by a hard counter.

I'm working on my own version at the moment. I'm not sure how it's going to look right now, but it will probably have a splash to white. (Enlightnened Tutor is great with Counterbalance and works great too to regain control with a nice toolbox.)

[Silthyn]

I've never played MUC; so I don't know how the list is supposed to look. Is Ophidian a good card? Is Force Spike playable (instead of Daze, of course) or is it worse than other counters that could be run? Isochron Scepter?

[SuckerPunch]

If you want to play a 1 cc counter, I think Spell Snare is a better option than Force Spike.

How do others feel?

[Silthyn]

If you want to play a 1 cc counter, I think Spell Snare is a better option than Force Spike.

How do others feel?

I play 4x Spell Snares already. The question is: Is Force Spike good enough to be run in addition to Spell Snares?

My current list:
// Lands
14 [TSP] Island (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Force Spike
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [US] Back to Basics
2 [SC] Stifle

[Curby]

Is Force Spike good enough to be run in addition to Spell Snares?

Why not use Shoals, as has been mentioned before? The card disadvantage does suck, but so does a first turn Lackey when you're on the draw and have no FoW. It can be effective into the late game when hard cast, so it's not a guaranteed 2-for-1. At least it's more well-rounded than Spikes, which are little more than FoW fodder in the late game.

EDIT: I s'pose I should actually read cards before posting about them. I thought Shoal was like a Mana Leak, forcing them to pay X. Sorry! (It's still interesting, but much less so.)

[Kadaj]

Shoal is solid if you already have plenty of 1cc cards in your deck, like Brainstorm and Force Spike/Spell Snare, and some variance at the other mana costs. I dislike Spell Snare in this format because MUC can't really afford to have narrow cards like that in the MD. You can make more of a case for it now then you could before the printing of Tarmogoyf, but I think I'd prefer to just run Force Spikes and/or Shoals before Spell Snare.

The best part of MUC now is that if you build it properly, meaning you play at least 3 Kegs and multiples of both B2B and Shackles, you have a good matchup against Threshold, the most popular deck in the format. Forcing through Powder Kegs by using your superior countermagic and depleting their resources enough to slip in either a Shackles or a B2B is often enough to win all on its own, irregardless of all of the factors that can win or lose you the match.

Counterbalance-Top really has no place in MUC, as much as it sounds like it would be a good idea on paper. It's a huge mana sink that doesn't really improve any matchups that you don't already win. It's horrible against goblins, and generally equally bad against other forms of Control (which you should beat anyway). Yes, it is solid against Threshold, but it's so much easier to just play with Powder Keg, Shackles, and B2B and beat them that way without taking up 6+ slots that could be devoted to either more flexible, or just flat out better cards. It's also way too slow against combo unless you run Chrome Mox, which seems to have fallen out of favor recently.

[SuckerPunch]

Spell Snare only works in this deck.

This deck plays lots of hard counters. Use Spell Snare on all 2cc cards (every single deck runs a couple), and save FoW, Counterspell etc for everything else.

I notice an alarming lack of Mana Leak in your list.

I think your counterbase should be...

4 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 FoW

[Silthyn]

Spell Snare only works in this deck.

This deck plays lots of hard counters. Use Spell Snare on all 2cc cards (every single deck runs a couple), and save FoW, Counterspell etc for everything else.

I notice an alarming lack of Mana Leak in your list.

I think your counterbase should be...

4 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 FoW

What about Rune Snag instead of Mana Leak? The first one is worse, but it's power increases when you get to lategame (which is your goal).

[Bardo]

Looking at the match-ups this deck has, I can see why it hasn't been the power-house it once was in Days of Yore. 'A pity, really, for control nerds like me.

From what I can gather, the principal reason to play this deck is Back to Basics, which -- in the right field -- is a freaking beating. Resolve this against 4c Landstill or Thresh when they're tapped out: Heh.

Otherwise, this deck looks more "cool and elegant" than a potential real force in the metagame. Stax is better at controlling board resources with Tangle Wire and it's litany of other lock pieces. MUC has a hard time dealing with 14 Goblin tokens on turn 2. Thresh can sacrifice its hand and leverage its tempo to present Overwhelming Board Advanage very quickly. Aether Vial is a beating and a half for MUC. And so on. And so forth.

So, as I said, this deck is basically a "Back to Basics Control Deck," that has a rather proud heritage but is of dubious competitive position for the current metagame.

This all said, I AM a contrl blue-based control nerd and have been fooling around with the following:

Monoblue Control
by Bardo

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

3 Back to Basics
2 Morphling

4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction

3 Chrome Mox
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Powder Keg

16 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard: Very customizable (Propaganda, B2B #4, BEBs, Threads, Needles, Crypts, more Kegs, etc.)

I flirted with Counter-Top and that may be the way to go, but I freed up two extra slots by going the MD Chalice route instead.

The lands had really doubting this deck. I originally had 4 Wasteland in there and then swaped them for Factories and then figured, wtf? mise well add Standstill in place of Fact and well, you can figure out the rest.

Anyway, I love the idea of MUC, but I have a hard time seeing the factors that would allow this to be a competitive foil for the Field at Large. Still, it's a fun deck to play. If you're a sadist, that is. ;)

[cheddercaveman]

Here is the issue that MUC has, and always has had. There is no tempo, no clock, no damage output. Threshold has plenty of turns to draw more land to get around the back to basics, Goblins will just run you over. 4c Landstill is packing plenty of counters and also probably duress. Right now I feel like MUC still has most of the weaknesses of Landstill without most of the strengths. Combo is going to get too many turns to build up. Aggro only needs a couple of turns. Aggro-Control is going to get a guy in there quick and protect him, while your gonna have to try to force an answer through so hard that they can just play another threat.

If this deck is going to be good, these issues need to be addressed.

[Tusk&Temper]

"MUC has a hard time dealing with 14 Goblin tokens on turn 2."

I have been working towards fixing this myself and I found both Powder Keg and Echoing Truth to work phenomenally against both TES and/or Belcher. That is to say if they are going the ETW route. Spell Snare also helps out a ton in these matchups to counter key tutors.

[thefreakaccident]

What is the most recent list for MUC?

I think if I were to run it again it would look kinda like...


4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
10 island


4 brainstorm
4 fact or fiction
4 accumulate knowledge
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 Nevinryll's disk
2 Engineered explosives
2 morphling
4 sifle
2 echoing truth
3 mana leak
2 back to basics

Sideboard//
2 back to basics
2 engineered explosives
4 propaganda
3 threads of disloyalty
4 tormod's crypt


Does this look about right?

[Wynk]

Have you ever considered this card vs. lackey in goblins?

Psychic Purge Sorcery legends

deals 1 damage to target creature or player.

When a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard Psychic Purge, that player loses 5 life.

[Doks]

@Wynk:

This card is not very flexible - what is it useful for except Lackey?
You got everything on board to handle others threads, so I don't think it's a good idea to use it just for a T1 Lackey.


@thefreakaccident:



Does this look about right?


I count 18 lands, and 8 of those are Fetchlands?
Welcome Mr. Manascrew =)

Even WUBS played at least 20 Lands with only 4 Fetchlands to ensure a Minimum of playability in the first few turns.
WUBS could use less Mana 'cause of its cheaper castable Winconditions (Exalted) and its Ability of cheap Removal (Swords).

The Minimum for a really Mono Blue Control Deck is about 21 Sources of Mana IMO, with Chrome Moxen i used to play 22. And even then, I had 4 Brainstorm and 4 Impulse to hit at least the first 3-4 land drops and then followed up with Thirst for Knowledge.

I don't like Stifle in the MB and 4 Disks are overkill, in my experience.
But I miss Vedalken Shackles, that could probably be a 3-of in a pure MUC.
All in all, I think there have been enough good lists posted up to now, so you should be able to find some hints for a prober decklist =)

For myself, I have gone with several degrees of splashing white, beginning with only Swords, then adding Decree, adding Wrath and Exalteds, making it more a WUBS deck, but did not find the build i feel comforable with.
A little Splash for Swords and Decree got me the best results so far for my personal Metagame, but I still don't feel it optimized enough.


Doks

[Tusk&Temper]

Personally I like to split my win-cons as well. So instead of 2x Morphling I would suggest 1x Morphling, 1x Meloku. I used to run 2x Morphling myself until i was constantly running into Extirpate and decided that I should probably do so. It has been working nicely for me. I am actually stretching to try and find a third win-con instead of having to rely on the Shackles to pick up the slack.

Splashing white might be a good addition however I'd feel like I was playing Landstill.2003 or something.

[Wynk]

New Preview: As one of the only decks that can cast this I thought it would be relevant

Crytic Command: 1UUU Instant

choose 2
1. counter target spell
2. return target permanent to owner's hand
3. tap all creatures opponent controls
4. draw a card

I simply said wow. Those are options. I like the design. Is there any way this could be competitive or is the cost simply too much? I lean towards the latter rather than the former, but either way its a nice card.

[Silthyn]

New Preview: As one of the only decks that can cast this I thought it would be relevant

Crytic Command: 1UUU Instant

choose 2
1. counter target spell
2. return target permanent to owner's hand
3. tap all creatures opponent controls
4. draw a card

I simply said wow. Those are options. I like the design. Is there any way this could be competitive or is the cost simply too much? I lean towards the latter rather than the former, but either way its a nice card.

I think it's a pretty good card. We're already paying 4 mana for Fact of Fiction, so I think this could be a 2-of. You don't even have to counter - You can tap all creatures your opponent controls and draw a card. That effect isn't too bad, considering that MUC has some problems against Aggro.

[Doks]

Splashing white might be a good addition however I'd feel like I was playing Landstill.2003 or something.

I read much players state this sentence - why?
I really don't feel like playing LS/w only because I splash for the best creature pinpoint removal in the format and some better kill-options.
IMO, MUC/w or WUBS differ very much from LS/w.

@ Crytic Command:

Good card, but tests will show.
We only play a CC4 instant draw spell named "Fact or Fiction" because of its really really strong power. FoF can be just game-breaking and is always a good play.
If FoF was not that strong, it wouldn't be played even for an instant draw.

At the moment, I can't see Crytic Command being as strong as FoF is, but still useful.
Time will tell.


Greetz,

Doks

[Silthyn]

Jace Beleren 1UU
Planeswalker - Jace
+2: Each player draws a card.
-1: Target player draws a card.
-10: Put the top 20 cards of target player's library in to his or her graveyard.
Loyalty: 3

Yeaah... Okay, this card should be playable.

[C.P.]

Jace Beleren 1UU
Planeswalker - Jace
+2: Each player draws a card.
-1: Target player draws a card.
-10: Put the top 20 cards of target player's library in to his or her graveyard.
Loyalty: 3

Yeaah... Okay, this card should be playable.

The long awaited substitution for Ophidian. Finally.
I'm intrigued, to say the least.

@ Cryptic command

Anything that is not FoF for FoW should not cost more than 3 in this deck.
A bad card in Legacy.

[Silthyn]

The long awaited substitution for Ophidian. Finally.
I'm intrigued, to say the least.

@ Cryptic command

Anything that is not FoF for FoW should not cost more than 3 in this deck.
A bad card in Legacy.

I wonder what the right number for Jace is. It's kinda bad against aggro, because they can just attack for 3 and kill it. Therefore, I think it's better as a sideboardcard for creature-light decks.

[Silverdragon]

So far I've seen a lot of lists with Chrome Mox but not a single one with Mox Diamond. Could Mox Diamond be a included in mana heavier builds? When playing lots of artifacts isn't it harder to find stuff to imprint on Chrome Mox than to find lands to pitch to Mox Diamond?
Any thoughts on splashing red to play Magus of the Moon? Aside from being a Blood Moon effect that could normally be replaced with Back to Basics he also functions as a win condition or at least a chumpblocker until the deck can find Shackles, Disk, Explosives or other removal. Splashing red and/or using Mox Diamond also makes it easier to set Explosives to higher values.
With Goblins on the decline why isn't this deck played more?

[Doks]

I think the reason Chrome Mox is played more often is that you don't want to discard a land in the early game.
Both the Moxen are just good in the early stages, and that's where you want to hit your land drops properly.

I don't know what to think of the Walker.
His second ability is great, no question, but the 3rd won't find that much use in my opinion and the first one is not an advantage for you the moment you activate it. I just don't like helping my opponent.
On the other hand, the Walker is better against other control decks that let's it look pretty interesting.



Doks

[Doks]

Sry for doublepost, but this seems quite interesting:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10898

Uwb Control
by Takamizu Tomohiro
5th, 51 Players


Mainboard:

4 Flooded Strand
17 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Flash of Insight
3 Cunning Wish
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Forbid
2 Misdirection
3 Back to Basics
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir

# 61

Sideboard:

3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Chill
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Extirpate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Trickbind
1 Forbid
1 Misdirection
1 Fact or Fiction


Since the B-splash is only for Extirpate, I'd have played an Underground Sea for Fetching when needed or at least have played some Deltas, but that's only my suggestion for some improvement.

What I like this list for is that it keeps the core of MUC more than any other version with splashes.
Except for 1 StoP, 1 Extirpate and 4 Disenchants only in the SB, this deck remains MUC.
With 16 Counters MB, the playset FoF including the Wishboard and good old Back to Basics.
When you have a look at the rest of the Top8, one can easily see that Spell Snare was the right choice in this environment.
Even some of the Threshplayers played 3-4 MB. Maybe influence of Tarmogoyf?

Anyway, I was glad to see another MUC-list on a more or less big tournament and now would like to hear what you think of some unusual choices:

1) Cunning Wish / Wishboard
2) Misdirection


So far,

Doks

[JakeH]

OK, Mono Blue Control has always been one of my favorite decks to play. No matter what you're up against, you stand a chance! Here is the list that I am working on. I feel that it is a little land heavy, but MUC cannot afford to get manascrewed at the beginning of the game.

3-Morphling

4-Vedalken Shackles
3-Back to Basics (HAHA! Teh kill card :cool: )

4-Fact or Fiction
4-Remand
4-Repeal
4-Spell Snare
4-Rune Snag
4-Force of Will
4-Counterspell

22-Island

SB:
4-Tormod's Crypt
4-Chill
3-Arcane Laboratory
3-Pithing Needle
1-Back to Basics

This is what I play with. It draws buttloads of cards and only has 16 true counterspells. My meta is creature heavy, so I HAVE to run 4 v.shackles! I've never won a tourny with this deck, but I've pulled 2nd.

[Brehn]

JakeH: "Only 16 true counterspells" --- whoa. Too much. Your only draw is Fact or Fiction, this seems very bad. Try Propaganda against those creature-heavy decks.

My latest list looks like this:

1 Morphling
1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics

2 Propaganda
2 Powder Keg

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Rune Snag
2 Force Spike

4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction

2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
19 Island

====

4 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Control Magic
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Echoing Truth
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Propaganda
1 Back to Basics


With the playsets Fact or Fiction and Impulse you can dig for your silver bullets quite well. 2 Powder Keg have worked fine for me as an out vs combo and an answer to Mongoose. With Propaganda main, even the aggro matchup is winnable, in the last tourney I only lost 1-2 vs Affinity in a very close match, but I believe I would have won if I had won the die roll despite of him having the god draw twice. Ideas:

- 4 Threads + 1 Control Magic is overkill, but I don't really know what to fit in the board, maybe additional crypts. Other suggestions?

- I'd like to fit Spell Snare somewhere in there, but I don't know what to cut. Force Spikes just seem too good...

- In the control mirror my drawspells sometimes look too clunky (especially FoF), so maybe I'm fitting an alternative cantrip like Ponder in.

[Bahamuth]

I don't like the 2 Propaganda in your deck. Propaganda can't hose aggro on it's own. In late game, your opponent will eventually have enough mana to attack with some creatures. If I'd play it, I'd play at least 3, maybe 4, since the card is good in multiples, while Back to Basics isn't.

Thing is, I'd probably not play it at all, since there are better ways of dealing with creatures.

2 Morphling

4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak/Rune Snag (Why do you play Rune Snag over Mana Leak?)
4 FoW
2 Force Spike/Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
4 FoF

4 StP
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Shackles

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Plains
16 Island

SB:
3 Back to Basics
4 Chalice
9 Something

Edit:

- 4 Threads + 1 Control Magic is overkill, but I don't really know what to fit in the board, maybe additional crypts. Other suggestions?

- I'd like to fit Spell Snare somewhere in there, but I don't know what to cut. Force Spikes just seem too good...

- In the control mirror my drawspells sometimes look too clunky (especially FoF), so maybe I'm fitting an alternative cantrip like Ponder in.

- Chalice is a very good option. Not only is it good vs. combo, it's also really a bomb vs. Thresh.

- Spell Snare and Force Spike are both meant to make this deck able to counter something on the first couple of turns. I think you should choose between these two for your mainboard. You could perhaps play the other sideboard, altough sideboarding Force Spike seems a bit weird to me.

- FoF is the best thing you can draw in a control mirror. It gives you a lot of cardadvantage, and that's usually the thing that will win you the game (or Back to Basics vs. Landstill).

Is anyone else working on this deck?

[Brehn]

- FoF is the best thing you can draw in a control mirror. It gives you a lot of cardadvantage, and that's usually the thing that will win you the game (or Back to Basics vs. Landstill).


Whoops, brainfart. Sorry for that. (I did have some issues with FoF though...)

Propaganda has worked very well for me. The Goblin matchup turns way better, as it buys you several turns to find Shackles or a creature. The only other acutal aggro deck I faced was Affinity, and Propaganda just wins that game if you can handle Disciple. I don't know any other aggro decks with a clock as fast as the one of those two.

The white splash for Swords is interesting, but only 8 white sources make it somewhat inconsistent. A heavier splash would require Back to Basics to be cut, then Mishra's Factory seems like an obvious inclusion, then Standstill... yeah.

In general, 4 Rune Snag > 4 Mana Leak, as you can use it as a counterspell in the lategame, while Leak just sits dead in your hand. Back to Basics main is obviously a meta decision, but it wins so many games... the BHWC Landstill matchup is fucking ridiculous, I once won a game by attacking with Meloku 18 times under Humility, my opponent couldn't resolve a spell.

[Bahamuth]

I've never had issues getting my white mana at the times I need it. 8 sources is quite a lot actually, and especially with the Brainstorms and Impulses you should find them in time.

[Doks]

For only 4 StoP this base is more than solid. Maybe i would play a second plains because you don't have to pitch it then when it comes down to a FoF-decision, but in general, this is enough.

I don't like Propaganda, I'd rather add a 3rd Shackles and concentrate on finding one of them.
I don't like Force Spike, too. Is there anything so crucial 1st turn play that wins the game against you?
There is no Vial or Lackey in the last few weeks / month that you really need to counter.
Except that, counters that become dead in the mid - late game are not good.
For everything else that comes down early and needs to be handled (Tarmogoyf any1?) Spell Snare is a very strong solution and remains that even in the later game.
And 2 Force Spike won't ensure you have one in your opening hand on a reasonable rate.



The white splash for Swords is interesting, but only 8 white sources make it somewhat inconsistent. A heavier splash would require Back to Basics to be cut, then Mishra's Factory seems like an obvious inclusion, then Standstill... yeah.


Once again, including a splash does not turn that deck automatically into Landstill.



Is anyone else working on this deck?


More or less... I try a version with a heavier w-Splash (not Landstill ;)) going into a more WUBS-like direction instead of BBS.
Back to Basics is still playable in the SB (since the only non basics are 3-4 Tundra).
However, the splash is only for a better Finsiher (Exalted Angel / Decree of Justice / Eternal Dragon) and some additional removal to StoP in the SB (Wrath of God / Disenchant).


So far,

Doks

[Bahamuth]

For only 4 StoP this base is more than solid. Maybe i would play a second plains because you don't have to pitch it then when it comes down to a FoF-decision, but in general, this is enough.

I don't like Propaganda, I'd rather add a 3rd Shackles and concentrate on finding one of them.
I don't like Force Spike, too. Is there anything so crucial 1st turn play that wins the game against you?
There is no Vial or Lackey in the last few weeks / month that you really need to counter.
Except that, counters that become dead in the mid - late game are not good.
For everything else that comes down early and needs to be handled (Tarmogoyf any1?) Spell Snare is a very strong solution and remains that even in the later game.
And 2 Force Spike won't ensure you have one in your opening hand on a reasonable rate.



Once again, including a splash does not turn that deck automatically into Landstill.



More or less... I try a version with a heavier w-Splash (not Landstill ;)) going into a more WUBS-like direction instead of BBS.
Back to Basics is still playable in the SB (since the only non basics are 3-4 Tundra).
However, the splash is only for a better Finsiher (Exalted Angel / Decree of Justice / Eternal Dragon) and some additional removal to StoP in the SB (Wrath of God / Disenchant).


So far,

Doks

What does WUBS and BBS mean? I've never heard of those terms....

BBS = Blue Bullshit (aka. Monoblue Control) For all intents and purposes, BBS = MUC.
WUBS = Blue/White Bullshit (Blue/White Control) - Bardo

Your idea sounds interesting, especially since WoG is a much better board sweeper than Keg/EE/Disk. I'd like to see a list.

[thefreakaccident]

take this as you will... please give feedback as well...

MUC w/ R

lands//21
4 volcanic island
3 wooded foothills
2 mountain
4 flooded strand
8 island

4 accumulate knowledge
4 brainstorm
4 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 mana leak
3 spell snare
2 morphling
4 lightning bolt
2 fire/ice
3 engineered explosives
2 nevinryll's disk

sideboard//
4 back to basics
4 stifle
4 tormod's crypt
3 pyroclasm

I found myself wanting CA with my draw spells so I could keep up with my opponents, hence the addition of 4 FoFs and Accumulate knowledge... The burn helps against the aggro MU, and the aggro-control MU is a joke now... the control MU is the same as it always has been... Back to basics still works great in our format, but since my meta is flooded with random jank it is hard to justify it as a MB slot anymore... I feel this is still a very poiwerful build though.

[Bahamuth]

That seems like a nice idea too. I'd probably replace the AKs with Impulse tough, but I think that's a personal preference. Also, you are playing 2 Disk and 3 Engineered Explosives, but no Shackles. Why is that? Shackles is one of the most powerful cards in the deck. I'd play it like this:

2-3 Volcantics (I think it's best to keep the dual count as low as possible)
1 Mountain
6 Fetch
13-12 Island

2 Morphling

4 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
4 FoF
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak

3 Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

I'm missing my Spell Snares now for the Fire/Ices, but I think the Fire/Ices are needed to kill large Goyfs on occasion. Perhaps Spell Snare is better against Goyf tough.

I'd definately play 4 Pyroclasm sideboard. For me, it would be the main reason to splash anyway.

4 Pyroclasm
3 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Crypt
4 Chalice

I'd like you hear your thoughts!

[Rood]

That seems like a nice idea too. I'd probably replace the AKs with Impulse tough, but I think that's a personal preference. Also, you are playing 2 Disk and 3 Engineered Explosives, but no Shackles. Why is that? Shackles is one of the most powerful cards in the deck. I'd play it like this:

2-3 Volcantics (I think it's best to keep the dual count as low as possible)
1 Mountain
6 Fetch
13-12 Island

2 Morphling

4 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
4 FoF
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak

3 Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

I'm missing my Spell Snares now for the Fire/Ices, but I think the Fire/Ices are needed to kill large Goyfs on occasion. Perhaps Spell Snare is better against Goyf tough.

I'd definately play 4 Pyroclasm sideboard. For me, it would be the main reason to splash anyway.

4 Pyroclasm
3 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Crypt
4 Chalice

I'd like you hear your thoughts!
Personally. this is just me, but Spell Snare should absolutely be in the format right now simple for the fact it counters Tarmogoyf. As well as the second strongest creature Dark Confidant. which any deck running black/green run. If you can, try to fit them in somehow.

[Bahamuth]

I guess you're right. -3 Fire/Ice +3 Spell Snare then? I'm not sure that's the best way to go, since the only burn you'll have left are the Lightning Bolts. Perpahs thefreakaccident's list is better anyway, but I just can't see MUC handle creatures without Shackles...

[FredMaster]

One of the more traditional lists of mono blue control:
//Lands
11 Island
6 U-Fetchies
4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

//Finisher
1 Morphling
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

//Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance

//Stuff
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

//Sideboard
3 Propaganda
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Powder Keg

[Doks]

Isn't that more a "comboish" way of Mono Blue StifleNaught? ...

Here is one of my general WUBS lists; I post it despite the fact that it is not a pure MUC since WUBS is more related to BBS than any other deck and there is no official WUBS thread:

//Lands

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Plains
9 Island

//Finisher

4 Exalted Angel
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

//Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak / Spell Snare / whatever

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Intuition

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Echoing Truth / Repeal (Repeal + Angel = godlike!)

SB:

3 Back to Basics
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Wrath of God
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Disenchant

In times of many aggrocontrol decks, especially with Tarmogoyf, I prefer W instead of R as Swords > Bolt and Wrath (postboard) > Pyrcoclasm (postboard) [again, W is not better than R in general!] because Tarmogoyf, Grunt and Enforcer survive a bolt or Clasm.
The heavy CA and countermagic is the key for the aggrocontrol MU, against fast combo like TES you rely on early counters and later CA.
Decree is a bomb in the Control MU against 4c-Landstill and aggrocontrol MU as it "buys" turns, creates instant chumpblockers and is a kill you don't really need to protect.

[Rood]

I guess you're right. -3 Fire/Ice +3 Spell Snare then? I'm not sure that's the best way to go, since the only burn you'll have left are the Lightning Bolts. Perpahs thefreakaccident's list is better anyway, but I just can't see MUC handle creatures without Shackles...

Nono...Mana leak definetally at least -2 should be dropped from your list if you're on the draw the fastest it can be is a turn 2 drop whereas any game-changing turn 2 drop such as Counterbalance comes online before you can even cast one. Spell Snare gives you faster outs. Something along the lines of, -1 Fire/Ice, -2 Leaks. It's your call on the last card.

[Doks]

So does this in general mean that Mana Leak should/can/will be dropped from U-based control now with all those Goyfs and fast Combo around currently?
Thought about that too and found it to be an interesting decision freeing up some space in the MB.
On the other hand, Mana Leak always compensated the "narrow" use of Spell Snare and was great against any aggro-control or in counterwars.
Even if I play actually only 3 of them instead of the full set.

Opinions?


Doks

[Bahamuth]

I've done some testing recently, and I found out 2 things:

1. AK is really good. I never expected I would like this card, but somehow you always draw plenty of them, and, even when I was playing without Intuition, I really think they helped.

2. I don't think any board-sweeper artifact is needed in the mainboard. I think it would be better to play more faster counters instead. Since Goblins is on the decline, it hardly even happens you won't find a way to deal with your opponent's creatures with the Shackles and StPs in your deck.

I'm not yet sure how many lands there should be in this deck, but I do know 24 is too much. I'm keeping it at 23 right now, but I think i might go down to 22.

23 Land:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Tundra
15 Island

2 Morphling

4 FoW
4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike/Spell Snare (I'm still not sure which is best. I still like how Force Spike can be usefull at times)

1 Intuition
4 AK
4 Brainstorm
3 FoF (I replaced one with the Intuition. I think it would be too much to play both 4 FoF and an Intuition)

4 StP
3 Shackles

SB:
4 Chalice
4 Toromod's Crypt
3 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
1 ?

Doks, I have 2 questions about your list:

1. Why play that many win conditions? I suppose the Angels aren't meant to be a win condition alone, but that would mean you play them in the early games, resulting in using 6-7 mana for a 4/4 flier. I'm not sure that's a good idea for a deck that wants to keep control

2. In what occasions do you board in those Disenchants?

[Doks]

Looks like a very solid list so far (perhabs -2 counters, +2 bounce).
But i would add a second Plains or Tundra so you are not forced to grab it with an early FoF even if you would like to take the other pile. And a random Decree (easily supported by that Manabase) is a real tech - just try it.


1. Why play that many win conditions? I suppose the Angels aren't meant to be a win condition alone, but that would mean you play them in the early games, resulting in using 6-7 mana for a 4/4 flier. I'm not sure that's a good idea for a deck that wants to keep control


Well, the Angel is one of the strongest cards you may draw against any aggro / aggrocontrol deck and swings game mostly just by dropping it (only effective removal those decks play is StoP).
Compared to Morphling, it has only the following disadvantage:

Easier to remove by pinpoint-removal (excluding burn, since double Lightning Bolt for example creates CA and is a very expensive move for the opponent, you can even counter the second Bolt)

whereas the advantages are:

1. Life Gain (lets you race opponent's Goofys and destroys any aggro-strategy)
2. Does not need any additional Mana each turn.
3. Play an Angel facedown, wait for the opponent's Removal, use Repeal for only U on it and create a ton of CA.

And it is never bad to be able to just drop one and play the "accelerated Angel style" watching your opponent dying to it or being able to handle it with 3 additional Angels in the deck.
In addition, combined with a boarded Wrath of God, the Angel wins the game pretty fast and you are not really sad to draw one once you got the possibility to play it. But WoG is only supported by WUBS, not by BBS ;)

If you feel the need like me (metagame call), you can play 4, I really like them, but that's just me. Otherwise, play 3 (which will be probably enough) but i would never run less than 3 its just such a strong card.


2. In what occasions do you board in those Disenchants?

Depending on Bounce:
If you already play Bounce MB (which i currently do not), you will really need this easy and oldschool way of removal in the Sideboard. It's just as devasting against not that common decks like B2B is. Survival / Aluren / Affinity / Stax / Rifter and more.
With only Bounce, you still need a counter to get rid of the returned permanent when it is re-played.

[Bahamuth]

I can get into your argument on why Angel is so good, and I do belive it is a very strong card, but my problem with it is that it seems to undermine the general idea of MUC, which is to make sure your opponent won't be hurting you anymore before you play your win condition. If you want to play a threat like Angel earlier in the game, it will cost you mana, and therefore make you unable to counter your opponents pieces for a, or maybe more, turns.

[braccobaldobau]

Hi, i play this deck with black.
My list is:
// Lands
4 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [UNH] Island
3 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CS] Rune Snag
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [R] Counterspell
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [DS] Echoing Truth

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle


black have only confidant but is uor draw enginiar. In side have damnation vs agro deck. I don't test much this list but i think is good deck...

ps.
sorry but i don't speack english very well....:cry:

[Kadaj]

Considering the metagame in which Tarmogoyf is basically the end all be all creature (as opposed to Goblin Lackey) it is even more imperative that Powder Keg be run. Believe or not, Powder Keg is not that great against goblins because all of their creatures have varied ccs, but it is AMAZING against threshold. They don't have a single threat who can realistically escape Powder Keg, as it blows up Mongeese, Goyfs, Bears, you name it. Frankly, with curves getting so low in both aggro and aggro-control, I think a build with both Force Spike and Disrupting Shoal would be better suited for this metagame. However, you would more or less be accepting the inability to beat goblins if you ran such a deck.

Frankly, if you're taking aim at Threshold as the deck you want to beat all you really need are some number of these:

Powder Keg
Vedalken Shackles
Back to Basics
Propaganda

Propaganda is easily the least important of the above cards, but it is still a huge problem for Thresh, as it often makes them choose between cantripping or attacking. Back to Basics is just stupid against them considering it turns off a good 2/3s of their manabase, and Shackles and Keg are self-explanatory. While white does improve matchups against pure aggro, I daresay your matchup against Threshold is actually worse than MUC and your matchup against other control is definitely worse.

[Doks]

While white does improve matchups against pure aggro, I daresay your matchup against Threshold is actually worse than MUC and your matchup against other control is definitely worse.


I don't think you can present it that easy.
Especially Landstill is big problem if you don't run Back to Basics MB as you don't have a proper way to get rid of the Manlands.
Decree is the card that at least made me get some damage through in the Control-MU what Angels don't really get to happen.

In the *****-MU, I do like white too: swords are still one of the best ways to get rid of any non-targetable beater and boarded WoGs are the big surprising bomb that can catch the opponents with their pant's down.
In addition, an Angel is a huge problem for them too when it is dropped and unlike Morphling you can race 1-2 enemie's creatures then.
Angel's Butt is even big enough to survive the red versions Burn.

[Kadaj]

See, here's the thing. You are never going to resolve Wrath of God against threshold. It's just not going to happen soon enough. All Thresh has to do is ride one Mongoose against you, because swords can't get rid of it and Wrath costs too much to effectively use. Angel is another card that seems good on paper, until you realize that it's either never going to resolve or it's just going to get StPd.

Not running B2B in MUC is a grevious mistake, so if you don't you deserve to lose against Landstill. Frankly, losing to Landstill is really hard to do with any deck even remotely resembling MUC. Uncounterable threats can be difficult to deal with, until you realize they're slow as hell and Shackles can delay them quite a bit.

[Doks]

You are never going to resolve Wrath of God against threshold

You won't resolve a Keg / Explosives then in the early turns where they may come early enough, too. When you're going to blow it up, the Mongoose will have beaten you several times and in the later game, Keg is still a delayed answer to those beaters, especially the 2CC-ones since they have two additional attack phases. And then it is not guaranteed that they don't have the Stifle for it.


All Thresh has to do is ride one Mongoose against you

The Mongoose is more or less irrelevant once you get an Angel going. You still have Explosives to deal with them in the 2-color-version, depending on the build or create some instantspeed chumpblockers via Decree.
It is not uncommon to cycle a Decree T4 killing that Mongoose and creating both tempo and cardadvantage. At least, Decree buys you turns.


Not running B2B in MUC is a grevious mistake, so if you don't you deserve to lose against Landstill.

Yeah, but that's kind of playstyle. There are players that don't main it, it's a metagame call.
That's the reason I play B2B SB cause they just own any variant of Landstill.dec.


Angel is another card that seems good on paper, until you realize that it's either never going to resolve or it's just going to get StPd.


I am quite sure that it is not harder to resolve an Angel instead of Morphling (maybe even easier, if you play it facedown).
Correct, StoP is a problem, but that's why I personally run 4 Angels.
But the advantages are quite huge:
You negate any strategy that's trying to kill you with creatures.
I can't count situations that Angel won me that Morphling wouldn't have since Morphling is not a good blocker as the Angel is or gives me those little 4 extra life per turn. It's just not only good on paper.


It's not that I never played BBS / MUC before, but in the current Metagame, I like the version splashing for W more and it is solving the problems I experienced during several tournaments playing MUC; that does not exclude that one may weaken some other MUs by splashing.


Peace,

Doks

[Kadaj]

The logic in saying Powder Keg is equally as hard to resolve as Wrath is faulty. Keg costs 2, Wrath costs 4. That is a world of difference. Morphling has the added bonus of not losing to StP, something Angel cannot claim. Morphling can also simulate the whole "8 point life swing" by acting as both an attacker and a blocker that can survive any conflict. At any rate, they're both more or less going to be irrelevant in the early game and probably the mid game as well, which is the real problem.

Cards that are good against Thresh have to be good in the early game, the mid game, AND the late game, because Thresh is so adept at pushing you in all three phases of the game. Keg is good in the early game because it costs two and only requires one turn to answer the threats at hand. Is it borderline unlikely it'll resolve if you run it out unprotected on turn 2? Yeah you are risking running headlong into Daze, but it is much less likely on turn 2 then on turn 4 because Thresh will have had less time to sculpt their hand. Wrath is bad in the early game because it costs 4 and is much more likely to be played on turn 5 as opposed to turn 4 to avoid Daze, which makes it too slow to be an early game solution. They're both similar in the mid game, where Keg can sometimes be too slow due to the fact you have to wait for it to be effective, whereas Wrath is an immediate solution, but that extra two mana is a counterspell you might not be able to play, and that can make a huge difference. Once you hit the lategame Powder Keg becomes slightly worse than Wrath because it's not immediate, and by then you should have more than enough lands to avoid running into counterwars you can't win.

At first glance, that would make it seem like the two cards are even against Thresh because they're both good at 1 phase of the game and even at the other. However, Keg is better because MUC is much better geared to take advantage of the late game with Shackles, Phling, whatever you might be running, than it is to take care of the early game, where you might be running 1, if that, board affecting spell that can be played on turn 1-3.

In the end, it is totally up to you which version you play. Personal preference does play a role in this sort of thing, but I firmly believe that if you want to beat up on Threshold that Powder Keg is a card you definitely want to be running, especially in a deck like this.

[Cyrus]

About the ******** matchup, what would the sideboard plan be?

[Rood]

If you don't already MD Spell Snares SB it against Thresh. as far as anything else goes, I've found Counterbalance, Back to Basics, and especially chalice of the Void for 1.

[Bahamuth]

I just noticed a problem with the build I'm currently playing (the list I posted above):

Playing vs. Thresh, I want to board in: 3 Back to Basics, 4 Chalice and 4 Crypt (is boarding Crypt in even good?) AND 3 Engineered Explosives. There's simply no way I'm going to be able to cut enough cards to make that happen. The only option seems to move one of those cards to the mainboard. Crypt and Chalice probabply won't be the ones, but perhaps 2/3 EE's or Back to Basics might be good. So what do you think I should do? I'm still not sure about the amount of land either, so I can cut those as well...

[Doks]

I always run 20-21 Land and 22 Manasources if I play Chrome Mox.
If you just splash for a random Decree and Swords, go with the Back to Basics MB i think, or maybe better if not pure MUC -> Explosives / Kegs are usual choices, too (read Kadaj's last post, the guy knows what he's talking about ;)).
I feel Keg / Explosives better choices in non-pure MUC than B2B as B2B may come down a bit too late or is lost in an early counterwar because of Daze and kill the Critters instead of trying to cut the opponent off of Mana.
Most Treshbuilds even run 2 Basic Islands what allows them to dig for a one-shot Dualland under B2B.

[Bahamuth]

I always run 20-21 Land and 22 Manasources if I play Chrome Mox.

With Chrome Mox? But I don't play Chrome Moxes right?

I'm sorry, I'm probably misreading your post...


Most Treshbuilds even run 2 Basic Islands what allows them to dig for a one-shot Dualland under B2B.

Should I board in the Back to Basics at all then?

[JakeH]

I just noticed a problem with the build I'm currently playing (the list I posted above):

Playing vs. Thresh, I want to board in: 3 Back to Basics, 4 Chalice and 4 Crypt (is boarding Crypt in even good?) AND 3 Engineered Explosives. There's simply no way I'm going to be able to cut enough cards to make that happen. The only option seems to move one of those cards to the mainboard. Crypt and Chalice probabply won't be the ones, but perhaps 2/3 EE's or Back to Basics might be good. So what do you think I should do? I'm still not sure about the amount of land either, so I can cut those as well...

Back to Basics should be MD - the lists I saw you post were Ur and Uw, so maybe thats not the best option. B2B just destroys so so many competitive decks. Besides, out of the cards you listed its the only one that can be pitched to FoW - that doesn't count for much, but its something :tongue:

[Bahamuth]

Holy crap! This became a DTW!

I didn't even know anyone had put up some results. Does anyone have deklists?

Everyone should note that the posting quality requirements are higher here than in other forums on this website. All posts should have relevant content. This is spam.

All lists can be found in links of Anwar's T8 thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3996).

- Bardo

[Doks]

With Chrome Mox? But I don't play Chrome Moxes right?

I'm sorry, I'm probably misreading your post...


This is just what my experience showed up with: you have all the draw and search to be able to run constantly with 20-21 land (in a WUBS-like build, what may differ from pure MUC however).
Some builds in this thread even run Chrome Mox, and there I found 19 Land + Moxen to be enough, too.


B2B just destroys so so many competitive decks.

Yep, but the timing has to be very good. B2B usually is a solution that wins you the game after you got rid of early threads or are not in a dangerous position.
The perfect situation is to catch your opponent completely tapped out with his pants down when there is no thread on the board.

[Cait_Sith]

// Lands
22 [U] Island (3)

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror

// Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [U] Counterspell
4 [CS] Rune Snag
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [VI] Impulse
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance

I am trying to update this list for the more modern meta and, after studying some of the more recent top decks, have come up with this:

// Lands
22 [U] Island (3)

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet

// Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [U] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [EX] Forbid
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda

Some whys:

Disk: Sweepers that can deal with everything very quickly regardless of cost are hot.

Rainbow Efreet: It survives Sweepers like Disk, plus help to prevent cruel needling of all my wincons.

Forbid: I can see some heads turning at the 1 Forbid, but I have a reason! The fact I can return it to my hand if I need to ensures that I will have a counterspell for a critical situation. Honestly, it is fairly impressive later on. If you have 10 lands on the board and draw some more, discarding them to Forbid tends to be better than just playing them, since that way they have greater impact on the game in most situations.

Impulse: I might just cut this for Disk/Shackles and 3 Ponder. What do you guys think?

No Rune Snag: 12 Hard Counter (despite 4 being somewhat situational) tend to be more than enough, especially with all the draw/tutoring.

Crypt: It is good vs Thresh, Ichorid, and Breakfast. Why not?

Propaganda: Good vs Goblins, Ichorid, and Breakfast. Seriously, it is a very good SB choice.

[mikekelley]

Are people still running fetches here? I could see it having solid synergy with brainstorm and all the other draw we are running.

[Cait_Sith]

Fetches are a tough choice:

Pro: They make Brainstorm much better. They thin your deck and, thanks to your draw, you can easily find enough to make that thinning VERY relevant.

Con: They can really slice apart your life total against Aggro. They also are vulnerable to Stifle.

Those are the big reasons. Stifle is less common than it used to be (maindeck anyway, but expect to see them sided in), but Aggro is on the rise, so expect that 3-4 life sunk to Fetches to become very important.

However, with Control still a part of the Metagame, being able to cut chaff is amazing.

Edit: I am almost wondering if Fathom Trawl is worth it. It's sorcery status makes it look atrocious, but its an amazing draw spell.

[Bardo]

Here's one of the lists that had the MUC thread moved to this forum:

4th Place - MUC
Akihabara, Japan
October 28, 2007
Takamizu Tomohiro

4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
2 Forbid

1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Morphling

3 Engineered Explosives
3 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles

16 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle
1 Extirpate
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Forbid
1 Echoing Truth
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Misdirection

The off-color basics are something I would have never thought of. Seems poor with Shackles or needing to hit UU for CSpell on turn 2, but the upsides of EE and a light sideboard splash for StP and Extirpate are worth testing.

Other strange things: the Scaled Wurm in the 2nd place list (wtf?) and Flash of Insight here. Seems like another Fact would be better. Dunno.

Anyway, I really want to build this and take it for a spin. It looks awesome.

[etrigan]

Why do people still run Rainbow Efreet? Compared to Morphling, it beats non-targeted removal, at the cost of being a lot slower and not playing defence. I dont see it.

Hell, I dont see Morphling anymore, but that's me. I'd just run Meloku, or, if splashing white, DoJ.

[MattH]

If you're not running fetches, then you're probably not running Brainstorm, so you probably should think about maining Chalice with the intent to set it at 1 charge counter most games.

[Bahamuth]

If you're not running fetches, then you're probably not running Brainstorm, so you probably should think about maining Chalice with the intent to set it at 1 charge counter most games.

Definately agreed. Brainstorm isn't nearly as good in a deck without fetches. I've always played 4 fetchland in my mono blue version, and I upped that to 6 when starting with the white splash.

Cunning Wish and Forbid both need to be tested I guess. I don't like Cunning Wish, as I have a very full board with only about 3 slots left. I'd have to change lots of slots in my mainboard to be able to play it. Besides that, 3 mana is quite a lot for a card like that...

Forbid seems much more interesting. I think it does need more cardadvantage like AK and FoF to be effective, but I can see it working in here as a 1 or 2-off.

[Eldariel]

I don't think Brainstorm is really worth it in MUC at all. I'd rather just play few more lands and actual spells than rely on finding a land off Brainstorm, and having to dig for counters with it. Also, playing Brainstorm forces you to play fetches, which hurt you in mono-blue, opening you to those Stifles and making your chances of drawing sufficient lands lower - control-deck really hate to miss landdrops. This, of course, makes splashing undoable, but I seriously don't think EE is superior enough to Powder Keg to make a splash worth it.

I personally find Ophidians fairly awesome. I understand how they might look bad, but really, against Threshold they usually either deter attacks or win the game and against Goblins, they make for fine blockers and can again either deter the attacks or win the game.

[Iranon]

With Chalice and without Brainstorm, is it worth stompifying the mana base a little, or is the card disadvantage from Moxen and Cities prohibitive?

First turn chalices and, pardon the atrocious pun, first turn Back to Basics once in a Blue Moon sound good.

[Nihil Credo]

In a deck without shuffle effects, Ponder is a strong option to replace Brainstorm. It's a great play on turn 1 on the play, and on the draw too if you don't have a Spell Snare. On turn 3+ it doesn't really hurt to play it either, since you'll still have Counterspell mana open (although not Counterspell + pay Daze mana open).

[Cait_Sith]

Daze is an utterly useless card in Control. It either cuts into your tempo with very little in return, or its an overcosted Force Spike. Spell Snare is almost universally better.

Rainbow Efreet: It dodges global removal, making it amazing in a control mirror. Meloku is strong, but he toasted by Wrath and Deed, and is hurt by targeted removal. Morphling is not as strong as Meloku in the offensive capabilities department as he requires constant mana to be sunk in, but if you have it he tends to be much faster and immune to targeted removal.

A finisher I'd love to try is Patron on the Moon or Soratami Savant. One is a big flier than both empowers Meloku and is plain great on its own, and Soratami Savant is a flying Mana Leak. Great for tempo since it can really cut down on the spells they can play in a turn.

If you "stompify" your mana base you will find that the anti-Synergy with BtB is just too astronomical to accept. Besides, neither of the two 2 mana lands is any good here.

Personally I am pretty sure Chalice would be a bad idea in here. There are not many 1 cost spells that you really have to worry about, and running it means you cannot run ANY 1 drops without hurting yourself badly. Spell Snare is better against Thresh than Chalice (as far as MUC is concerned). I'd sooner run Propaganda maindeck due to its ability to stop evil Aggro deck (plus make Powder Keg stronger).

If you keep Brainstorm, would Erayo be a possible choice? If you flip her, the results are astronomical as far as MUC is concerned.

[Bahamuth]

I don't think Brainstorm is really worth it in MUC at all. I'd rather just play few more lands and actual spells than rely on finding a land off Brainstorm, and having to dig for counters with it. Also, playing Brainstorm forces you to play fetches, which hurt you in mono-blue, opening you to those Stifles and making your chances of drawing sufficient lands lower - control-deck really hate to miss landdrops. This, of course, makes splashing undoable, but I seriously don't think EE is superior enough to Powder Keg to make a splash worth it.

I personally find Ophidians fairly awesome. I understand how they might look bad, but really, against Threshold they usually either deter attacks or win the game and against Goblins, they make for fine blockers and can again either deter the attacks or win the game.

I tested Ophidian quite a bit and i really didn't like him. Seriousely, why block goblins with a 1/3 for 3 mana if you can remove them for one? Or blow it up together with all his friends for 3-4? Or steal it so it can block another one? I really don't see the use...

Obviousely, Ophidian does create card advantage in the right situation. But then again, I think it's much better to use Intuition + AK for that purpose next to FoF, since that doesn't require you to play any removable creatures, isn't stopped by opposing creatures and produces more advantage for less mana.

[Kadaj]

Believe me, I have extensively tested every draw engine mentioned in this thread. If you're playing MUC, Phid is garbage, and Intuition AK takes up way too many slots.

Fact + Thirst for Knowledge is more or less the most consistent and effective draw engine. Also, not MDing Propaganda in the current meta is almost definitely a mistake, as there isn't much it isn't good against. The clear leaders of the Legacy metagame are Thresh, Goblins, and Landstill. Propaganda is actually really good against all three of them, so I'd wager fitting three of them in somewhere is a really good plan.

Brainstorm is bad in MUC because you run at max 6 shuffle effects, and Brainstorm is really only good if approaching 100% of the time, or close to it, you can shuffle afterwards. Otherwise it's just an inconsistent card filter that robs you of fluidity.

Chalice was a decent idea when Chalice at 1 reamed everything, but decks are much better at dealing with Chalice now then they ever were, and MUC really doesn't need more early game effects considering its weakness is getting through the midgame against decks like Goblins.

[Doks]

If you run enough artifacts, TfK will probably the 2nd choice right after FoF.
Unfortunately, Chalice is - Kadaj pointed it out - not the way to go in the current environment and therefore TfK lacks the substantial amount of artifacts making it worth to run it.
I never said Accumulated Knowledge (with or without Intuition) was the nonplus-ultra or the way to go, but it is not only on paper a very steadily and reliable draw that makes you able to fit the control role against any type of aggrocontrol strategy.
I like Brainstorm even in pure MUC or with a light splash (assuming you run enough Fetchlands), why not running it in addition to Impulse when you're looking for more Draw'n'Search? On the first few Pages, traditional builds even run both, too.


If you keep Brainstorm, would Erayo be a possible choice? If you flip her, the results are astronomical as far as MUC is concerned.

The same reason Goblin Welder is not that playable in Legacy:
both have strong effects but are just too vulnerable to every common run removal in our beloved format.
Brainstorms does not effect the fact that Erayo will still die.

[Bahamuth]

Believe me, I have extensively tested every draw engine mentioned in this thread. If you're playing MUC, Phid is garbage, and Intuition AK takes up way too many slots.

Fact + Thirst for Knowledge is more or less the most consistent and effective draw engine. Also, not MDing Propaganda in the current meta is almost definitely a mistake, as there isn't much it isn't good against. The clear leaders of the Legacy metagame are Thresh, Goblins, and Landstill. Propaganda is actually really good against all three of them, so I'd wager fitting three of them in somewhere is a really good plan.

Brainstorm is bad in MUC because you run at max 6 shuffle effects, and Brainstorm is really only good if approaching 100% of the time, or close to it, you can shuffle afterwards. Otherwise it's just an inconsistent card filter that robs you of fluidity.

Chalice was a decent idea when Chalice at 1 reamed everything, but decks are much better at dealing with Chalice now then they ever were, and MUC really doesn't need more early game effects considering its weakness is getting through the midgame against decks like Goblins.

So what's the list you would reccomend? Are you still playing Thrists even tough you play no Chalice? And how many Propaganda are mainboard?

[Kadaj]

See, here's the thing with Brainstorm. It's affect without a shuffle actually sucks. Seriously, I realize that might be an outlandish concept, but Brainstorm without a shuffle effect is worse than Counsel of the Soratami. It screws up the fluidity of your draws, guarantees you will draw crappy cards for the next two turns, and doesn't increase your hand size at all. That last reason there is major reason why it's not as good as TfK in MUC. Turn 1 plays are overrated in this deck if they're not FoW, Spell Snare, or Force Spike. What this deck needs is a midgame that doesn't roll over to a single resolved Goblin Ringleader or SCG, and Brainstorm doesn't help at all there.

EDIT:

Stupid list problems.

Ok, after trying to get that post to work for a while, I'm just going to make a seperate post. Here's my current list:

X16 Island
X3 Flooded Strand
X3 Polluted Delta
X3 Chrome Mox

X2 Morphling
X1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror

X4 Force Spike
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X3 Disrupting Shoal
X4 Fact or Fiction
X3 Thirst for Knowledge
X3 Propaganda
X3 Impulse
X2 Vedalken Shackles
X2 Back To Basics

SB:
X4 Stifle
X4 Blue Elemental Blast
X3 Repeal
X1 Propaganda
X1 Back to Basics
X1 Vedalken Shackles
X1 Powder Keg

Disrupting Shoal is a bone of contention with me because it's more pitch magic and is surprisingly solid in some situations, but I think it might be better off as Mana Leak or some other counterspell. Any suggestions on what you think should go there and why?

The numbers on Impulse are ugly, that much is obvious, but with 10 card advantage/dig spells you should have no trouble finding what you need, especially since 7 of them actually increase your hand size. Between Chrome Mox and Propaganda the deck can actually handle early weenie hoards without exhausting its entire hand, and Back to Basics is brutal in combination with Propaganda.

Still, with so much card disadvantage I'm inclined to beileve Disrupting Shoal is by far the weakest slot in the deck, in particular without any 1cc spells to feed to it other than another counterspell.

Merged your posts. - Bardo

[TeKo]

Why nobody plays Standstills?
Why its only good in UW or 4c Landstill?

[Cait_Sith]

Standstill is not played because this is not Landstill (Btw, Standstill is good in ALL versions of Landstill. There is where it gets its name). The biggest advantage of Standstill is that it allows land based wincons to dominate once the board is clear of relevant threats.

However, MUC lacks the spells it needs to be able to quickly create a board situation where Standstill is an optimal play. By the time MUC has Control, it is the late game and Standstill is not needed, so even useful. To play Standstill you need manlands. If you run manlands than you cannot run Back to Basics.

I'd rather run a card that can actually just win games through its resolution than a card that just gives me more cards.

Edit:

@ Kadaj:TfK does not increase hand size unless an artifact is discarded. -1 for spell, +3 for resolution, -2 for resolution = 0. As you run a whopping 5 artifacts, much of the time your only means of getting CA is Fact or Fiction.

You run 0 ways of being able to stop any troublesome cards once they resolve. If your opponent gets down a Turn 1 Kird Ape of a Taiga, you have to find one of 5 cards to be able to stop him with only 10 turns to do it. This may seem like a long time, but he will probably be throwing Burn at your face and trying to get more creatures through.

You need some sort of sweeper (I recommend Powder Keg).

You run far too many counterspells. I run 8, a Forbid, and 4 Spell Snare and I find this to be plenty much of the time. I can sweep away and steal whatever sneaks through (or I permit through). You run the standard 8, then 4 Force Spike (an atrocious counterspell late game. It is only good in Aggro-Control since they don't HAVE a late game, ideally), and 3 Disrupting Shoal (which are bad early game as you lack 1 and 2 drops to get the early stuff and bad late game because they either suck up cards or mana, both of which you need).

[Kadaj]

You vastly undervalue Force Spikes effect on the early game, which is when it's needed. It's also powerful against decks in the midgame when they like to tap out to throw threats at your head. Disrupting Shoal is, as I already admitted, by the far the weakest card in that list and should almost definitely be cut for something like Powder Keg.

Spell Snare is a potential replacement for the Force Spike slots, as is Mana Leak. Frankly, if I were going to cut Force Spike I'd probably do something like:

+3 Spell Snare
+1 Forbid
-4 Force Spike

Which if I'm not mistaken, is what you're running in your list, although it was hard to tell from you're wording. However, your arguments that Force Spike and Disrupting Shoal are bad because they are, respecitvely, weak in the late game and early game is exactly my point. Past the 8 standard counterspells, there are just about no counterspells solid in both the early and the late game. Combining Force Spike and a card like Disrupting Shoal (or Mana Leak, or whatever strong Midgame counterspell you fancy) gives you enough variance to get you to the late game, where your powerful spells can push you through to victory.

Anyway, I do agree Disrupting Shoal is way too weak in this list. So, you can go:

-3 Disrupting Shoal
+3 Powder Keg

From my list, which also ups the artifact count for TfK and gives you a stronger answer to resolved threats that can combine with Shackles, Propaganda, and B2B.

[Cait_Sith]

I have a changed list, just -4 Brainstorm +2 Islands +2 Propaganda. I really do love Propaganda and was desperate for some way to sneak it in. This also resulted in some SB changes, but that was mostly it. (It also may result in me cutting Disk, but that remains to be seen. [I cut it as I was typing this])

I run 4 Spell Snare, not 3, but close otherwise.

Spell Snare is not an amazing counterspell, but it IS good early and late game. Various problematic targets it can hit are: Various burn spells, Counterspell, Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, Abeyance, Echoing Truth, Tarmogoyf, to name a few more likely to be seen ones.

Honestly, there is so much stuff that Spell Snare can hit that the only match up where I don't like it is Goblins (they have one 2 Spells and, thanks to Vial/Lackey, they are not likely to cast it). In that case I board it and Forbid out for a 4th Propaganda, 3 Echoing Truths, and a 3rd Shackle.

[Kadaj]

I can definitely see Spell Snare's applications. Being able to hit Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Counterbalance, etc, all in one card for U is pretty fucking amazing, no doubt about that. However, I feel as though with Goblins still comprising a large part of my local meta, Force Spike is the better card in that slot considering it absolutely reams them turns 1-4 when they WILL be tapping out for threats, or not playing anything at all. If you can then force them into the mid-late game and slow them down with Propaganda and Shackles, you can eventually take over the game and win with Phling/Meloku.

Then again, it is pretty unlikely you'll be able to win game 1 against goblins even with Force Spike instead of Spell Snare. That matchup is arguably the hardest one to improve without giving ground away elsewhere, so I'd probably tend to agree that Spell Snare should be in that slot to allow for better matchups across the rest of the field and then just rely on the board to pull you through against Goblins (Which it definitely can).

[Illissius]

Why are you still running fetchlands without Brainstorm, or any other effects which benefit? The land thinning -- if you even want that in MUC -- is surely outweighed by the fact that they can Stifle it, it pumps their Goyfs, and it costs you life.

[Kadaj]

They're a holdover from when that list actually had Brainstorm in it. I was experimenting with a build that would effectively utilize Disrupting Shoal, but it consistently came up short in terms of its actual ability to, you know, win games. Of course, I forgot to remove the fetchlands when I was editing the deck because I sort of glossed over my lands when I was working with it. -6 Fetches, +6 Islands.

[Cait_Sith]

Why are you still running fetchlands without Brainstorm, or any other effects which benefit? The land thinning -- if you even want that in MUC -- is surely outweighed by the fact that they can Stifle it, it pumps their Goyfs, and it costs you life.

Also it combos amazingly with Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon and Back to Basics. I honestly just remembered that gem: your hate makes their hate better.

Never a good plan.

I actually do miss Brainstorm sometimes is my modified list, but being able to have 3 maindeck Propagandas has done so much random damage I am not nearly as worried about it anymore.

That and more lands makes for better Forbids.

Edit: As a four of I feel that Rune Snag is far superior to Mana Leak. Rune Snag even helps you when it is discarded, unlike Mana Leak. The more zones a card is better in the better the card is.

Also, may I humbly suggest Think Twice over Thirst for Knowledge? The first casting costs less; it can be cast from the graveyard via flashback should it dumped to Fact or Fiction; it provides the same or more CA on average (+1).

I will think about it versus Impulse, but I think Impulse is better is most cases.

[Kadaj]

Think Twice is something I didn't think of, it could definitely be a possibility. Another somewhat odd potential choice is Ancestral Vision. I'll attempt to test both of them in the TfK slot and see how it goes. TfK is solid in versions with 10+ artifacts, but underwhelming in versions with less, so any alternative would certainly be welcome.

Propaganda is also officially amazing. I cannot think of a single deck it's not good against other than something stupid like SI (which you should beat anyway). It forces Goblins to slow their assault down, forces Thresh to choose between cantripping and attacking, makes Landstill spend extra mana to get those extra hits in with manlands, and hurts Tomb/Chalice based decks by making them use their mana for things other than threats. Hell, it even hurts Ichorid by preventing them from attacking with 20+ Bridge tokens.

[Anusien]

Really, Forbid? I've never ever felt the need to have a counterspell you could buy back. You don't have that many non-counter cards. It's like, do you really need to cast five or six counters?

[MattH]

Force Spike's effectiveness goes up with the more B2B you run. Just thought I'd highlight that.

[C.P.]

Really, Forbid? I've never ever felt the need to have a counterspell you could buy back. You don't have that many non-counter cards. It's like, do you really need to cast five or six counters?

Forbid as a singleton is actually pretty good. You don't have to buy it back every time, using it to ditch that useless Force Spike or Mana Leak when you can. With amount of digs you have, singleton copy actually comes up pretty often when the dead cards starts to matter.

[Kadaj]

Back to Basics tends to drive up the effectiveness of the rest of the deck. Depriving your opponents of mana increases the brutality of both Shackles and Propaganda, as well as making the job easier for both your counters and Powder Keg to keep the board cleared. Running at least 2 in the maindeck is definitely a must, especially given the way the current metagame is set up.

[Tusk&Temper]

You forgot that if you resolve a turn 2 (possible with mox) Propaganda against ETW tokens they are pretty much useless. Personally I have a lot of CRET Belcher players in my meta and Powder Keg + Echoing Truth are huge in this deck.

BTW really like the deck.

[Cait_Sith]

Really, Forbid? I've never ever felt the need to have a counterspell you could buy back. You don't have that many non-counter cards. It's like, do you really need to cast five or six counters?

Yes, actually. Even with Morphling, Meloku, and Rainbow Efreet as win conditions, once I hit 12 lands they tend not to be doing very much any more. Turning them into counterspells in certainly a viable option, especially since it reduces the need for other counterspells.

If nothing else Forbid is just a slightly more expensive Counterspell and can dodge Cabal Therapy more easily.

[Kadaj]

After some testing, as ludicrous as this will sound, Ancestral Vision is nuts. Completely and totally nuts. In combination with Propaganda it singlehandedly gives you a midgame solid enough to hold its own against even Goblins and combines very well with Fact or Fiction to set up nearly insurmountable card advantage against almost any deck out there.

I urge anyone interested in this deck to test it, because, unless I've been getting stupidly lucky over and over again, the card is almost exactly what MUC has been looking for. The fact that you can play it early in the game and then get its effect at no cost later is a huge boon, because more often than not it's right about turn 6 or 7 when you start to have 2 or 3 cards in hand, and that's where Ancestral Vision will save your ass.

[Bahamuth]

That definitely sounds like an interesting idea. My only problem with it is that it's not an instant, so you won't be able to play this card early game without risking you won't be able to counter an opponent's spell. Suspending the card on turn 1, especially on the play, seems a very strong play tough. I will definitely test the card out.

[deadlock]

Hi,
could someone please explain to me why Impulse is so widely accepted as a choice for MUC? It doesnt generate CA and is a bit clunky mana wise for my taste, why should this be better than Brainstorm + Shuffle effect?

Other topic, the Japanese list played one Teferi as a wincond. thoughts on him? And what do you guys thin about Draining Welk, i somehow like this card, reminds me of.. :laugh:

[Iranon]

I often found myself in 'slowly losing' mode with MUC, where I have to cast something specific eventually but not immediately. Impulse is a natural fit: If you have a specific need (be it a big draw spell, Propaganda, a win condition or Back to Basics), Impulse is guaranteed to get you appreciably closer to it. It's an advantage that is irrelevant for Aggro/Control decks, which occasionally need the right thing immediately and feature high redundancy otherwise. They can also easier spare the life points for fetch lands.

[Kadaj]

To quote myself:


Brainstorm is bad in MUC because you run at max 6 shuffle effects, and Brainstorm is really only good if approaching 100% of the time, or close to it, you can shuffle afterwards. Otherwise it's just an inconsistent card filter that robs you of fluidity.

Brainstorm is amazing in decks like Threshold and Landstill that have tons of variety and need to fix their manabases in addition to filtering through a wide variety of effects in their deck. MUC really only has two types of cards. Lands, and instants. Early in the game Impulse can be used on a free turn (one where your opponent hasn't played a spell that you had to counter) to dig for land, or if you have enough already, more countermagic while automatically clearing away the top of your library of any gunk. That, in addition to digging 4 cards deep as opposed to 3, is the primary reason Impulse is better than Brainstorm in MUC. You don't run nearly enough shuffle effects or library clearers to make Brainstorm an optimal choice, and Impulse is just better suited for this deck's needs.

[deadlock]

I often found myself in 'slowly losing' mode with MUC, where I have to cast something specific eventually but not immediately. Impulse is a natural fit: If you have a specific need (be it a big draw spell, Propaganda, a win condition or Back to Basics), Impulse is guaranteed to get you appreciably closer to it. It's an advantage that is irrelevant for Aggro/Control decks, which occasionally need the right thing immediately and feature high redundancy otherwise. They can also easier spare the life points for fetch lands.



Brainstorm is amazing in decks like Threshold and Landstill that have tons of variety and need to fix their manabases in addition to filtering through a wide variety of effects in their deck. MUC really only has two types of cards. Lands, and instants. Early in the game Impulse can be used on a free turn (one where your opponent hasn't played a spell that you had to counter) to dig for land, or if you have enough already, more countermagic while automatically clearing away the top of your library of any gunk. That, in addition to digging 4 cards deep as opposed to 3, is the primary reason Impulse is better than Brainstorm in MUC. You don't run nearly enough shuffle effects or library clearers to make Brainstorm an optimal choice, and Impulse is just better suited for this deck's needs.


I see, i ll try it myself. Thanks for the quick response.

What about the win conditions? I like Meloku, but is Morphling still the way to go?

Do we need answers to resolved enchantments, Counterbalance for example. It cant be killed via Power Keg and is a pain in the neck if combined with SDT.

Finally a deck which can utilize Ancestral Vision. I dont think that sorcery speed is a problem, 1 CMC make it more flexbile than say Merchant Scroll.
4 FoW as only pitch-counters might be to few, because of the high creature relevance we cant play Misdirection (cant we?), I ll try 1-2 Disrupting Shoal to support FoW in the early game.

[Illissius]

Has anyone actually tested Cryptic Command? I mean, it's four mana and all, I'm just curious.

[Kadaj]

Disrupting Shoal isn't that great in the early game because the spells you absolutely must counter are all 1cc (Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey), and the current versions of this deck play either next to or no 1cc cards. Misdirection would be amazing if it could do anything about permenants without targets, which are the main thing this deck absolutely hates.

At this point I run 2 Morphling and 1 Meloku for win conditions. Flexibility there is definitely a good thing.

Answers to counterbalance aren't that important because the only decks that really utilize counterbalance are Fish and Threshold, neither of which have the general cc range to really counter the spells that matter in this match (and you can just as easily keep Top off the board if it matters that much). Answers to enchantments in general are going to be hard to come by because Blue has to rely on bounce for that, which you can very easily put in the board. Something like Repeal or Echoing Truth could easily fill that role.

As far as Cryptic Command, no I haven't bothered to test it yet. Then again, I took the same attitude with Ancestral Vision initially, so I'll look into it as soon as possible. It could be good as a tempo generator or as a Dismiss, but I have a hard time believing a 4cc spell that isn't Fact or Fiction will be good in this deck. Still, I'll test it.

[Bahamuth]

To quote myself:



Brainstorm is amazing in decks like Threshold and Landstill that have tons of variety and need to fix their manabases in addition to filtering through a wide variety of effects in their deck. MUC really only has two types of cards. Lands, and instants. Early in the game Impulse can be used on a free turn (one where your opponent hasn't played a spell that you had to counter) to dig for land, or if you have enough already, more countermagic while automatically clearing away the top of your library of any gunk.

I get your point here, but then, why would Solidarity play 4 Brainstorm? That deck too only plays 6 shuffle effect and also only has lands and instants right?

[Kadaj]

Solidarity also runs Impulse in addition to Brainstorm. They need specific instant speed digging spells (more than 3 or 4), and in that case Brainstorm is worth it. If MUC ever reaches the point where they need more than 4 early game digging spells, then Brainstorm would be worth considering. Until then, it just doesn't fit this deck.

[cheddercaveman]

I'd love to see the list running Ancestral Visions, I'm always excited when any cards that are Kamigawa block or newer make their way into a legacy deck (because I tend to have to trade for them a whole lot less). In that vain...

Any testing with Piracy Charm? If goblins is running rampant it is a turn one lacky kill, or you can use it later in the game to force a draw step discard potentially too. With goblins declining some it might not be good enough, but maybe worth a try or even maybe a sideboard slot.

Also, kudos on bringing Keg back, unless your running trinket mage in a deck I feel like its just plain better than EE which everyone hypes so much.

Has anything like Draining Whelk or Teferi been tested? They're both solid in standard, but here maybe not? Whelk doesn't need to hit anything really big either, even a CMC = 3 give you a 4/4 flying flash and you nabbed the spell, seems ok.

What does your game plan look like against a burn-type deck. There is a very, very solid Boros Deck that is played in our metagame that runs close to 30 burn spells, and many of the creatures are things like fanatic and legionaire that deal damage too. And to save some time in a potential follow up post on this issue, no the BEBs are not going to be enough for a deck that is as slow to win as this one.

[Cait_Sith]

Chill works nicely. Since decks like that tend to run 21- lands, a single Chill can buy you enough time to find another Chill, and so forth. Having 3 Chills on the table plus BtB and Propaganda can shut down anything they try to do.

Another option vs their burn is Soratami Savant: Mana Leak on Legs.

[cheddercaveman]

I agree that chill works nicely, I just haven't seen it in any of the sideboards and I wasnt sure if there was a reason for this or not.

[Media314r8]

Has anyone tested mulldrifter in this deck? A 2/2 flyer can easily be a win condition in this type of deck, and the draw in my mind makes this guy as powerful as a FoF with a beat-stick thrown in for good measure. (I assume that you'd want FoW backup when you cast this guy to handle any spells your opponent may play) I realize that a 5 mana sorcerry may be weak in legacy, (to say the least) but in this deck, he could:
1) go all the way as a wincon
2) draw you a Force (or shoal/misdirection) or a blue card for force-fodder
3) cost the same as morphling... and he does still win the game... eventually.

I also forsee the invitational card making its way into this deck as a four-of... should it be printed as is. I think it reads:

(best land ever)
Tap: add colorless to your mana pool

2UU, discard (best land ever): Counter target spell.

[Cait_Sith]

I was pondering over that land, and it seems to me it is just not that up to snuff.

It neither counts as an island for Shackles nor a basic for Back to Basics.

It weakens your two most powerful cards in return for an expensive counterspell/land. It will probably be better in UX Control and in Extended/Standard MUC, but not in Legacy.

[C.P.]

Hi,
could someone please explain to me why Impulse is so widely accepted as a choice for MUC? It doesnt generate CA and is a bit clunky mana wise for my taste, why should this be better than Brainstorm + Shuffle effect?

Other topic, the Japanese list played one Teferi as a wincond. thoughts on him? And what do you guys thin about Draining Welk, i somehow like this card, reminds me of.. :laugh:

Most builds run Impulse on top of Brainstorm + Shuffle. The deck just needs a lot of selection, and Impule is perfect for it.

Teferi's good, but I think it ultimately comes down to personal taste.
I will Ignore Draining Whelk, as I take it as a Joke.

[Doks]

I agree that chill works nicely, I just haven't seen it in any of the sideboards and I wasnt sure if there was a reason for this or not.


I am usually the guy playing Chalice of the Void against Combo - which is also very useful in the Burn MU. Chalice for 1 usually causes the Burnplayer to go for a slower game. That buys you time and brings you into the mid-lategame where any list of MUC should probably have an advantage.
If you run W for the Angel btw, you can easily win after you dropped it and ride for victory (each attack it reads: "Counter target usual Burnspell. Gain 1 life.").

Ancestral Vision:

Neat card, but I don't like its weakness the longer the game lasts.
On the play suspended 1st Turn that should be probably a great play, no question, and is a thread the opponent has to include in his strategy:
does he want to keep an answer ready and therefore taking a slower game or will he ignore it and give us the chance to draw into a gamebreaking advantage?
But to suspend it T1 you will probably have to run 3-4, and I wonder if those slots are worth it, 'cause I don't have any idea what to cut.
A Catalog or even Inspiration (extreme comparison ;)) would be better lategame as they give you the cards at once and you don't have to give the opponent an additional 4 Turns before you overhelm them with CA.
If Vision only had some alternative cost just like Rift Bolt...



At this point I run 2 Morphling and 1 Meloku for win conditions. Flexibility there is definitely a good thing.


Nice compilation.
I just wonder why those newcoming decks that made MUC become DTW run a single Teferi in addition.
I like him, but there are better options, especially Morphling.

[thedarkness]

Lands
16 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

Creatures
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Morphling

Spells
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Impulse
3 Force Spike
1 Forbid
3 Dissipate
1 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Chrome Mox

Sideboard
SB: 1 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Chill
SB: 2 Spell Snare

This is my take on mono blue control, and in testing it's done very well for me.

The obvious choices are Fetches + BStorm/Impulse, Force, CSpell, Forbid, b2b, play set of FoF, and shackles, as I'm sure anyone actually reading this post already knows. But I think the rest of my choices are somewhat odd. At least, I haven't seen them anywhere else.

To start: Dissipate. There are any number of counterspells I could be running in the 3cc slot, but I think this one is the best call for this particular build. The card reads, for those who don't know:

Dissipate - 1UU - Instant
Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, remove it from the game instead of putting it into its owner's graveyard.

Simple. No recurring the countered spell, no tutoring the card back up, it's gone. Counter their wishes when it's relevant and they're out a card for the duration of the game. Now I'll admit, this is only situationally useful (specifically the removing from the game), but even when it doesn't matter, it IS a hard counter. 3 mana, counter a spell, no questions asked.

3 Force Spike/1 Spell Snare/2 SB Spell Snare: I opted to split Spikes and Snares the way I did because Spell Snare is more relevant than Spike in the late game, as a hard counter for a 'goyf or a SotF, but in the early game I'd often rather have a Force Spike, *especially* on the play. The proportions are switchable post-board if I deem it necessary, since I can just -2 Force Spike +2 Spell Snare. It depends on what the deck is.

I chose to run 3 win conditions for a number of reasons, the primary one being the issue of this deck totally lacking any form of threat variety in most builds. (As an aside, Scaled Wurm? What the..sigh.) I opted for one win condition that shuts down the mirror, one that shuts evades aggro and removal, and one that evades mass removal. It seemed logical to me, and it still does: if a Deed has somehow resolved, I can maintain board control and safely drop the Efreet. Teferi plunks himself down at another control player's end of turn step with counter backup, and shuts down their shenanigans for the duration of the game. And Superman doesn't really need an explanation, does he?

Anyway, that's my take. Any criticism or ideas would be appreciated.

Edit: I forgot to explain the Chills in my sideboard. >_>

Burn is big on magic-league, so I figured it warrants a 4-of slot in my sideboard. This deck has some big issues with that one.

[Kadaj]

So if a threat actually resolves what do you do? Scoop? You have exactly 2 answers to a resolved threat, in addition to running Dissapate, which is awful because it's a counterspell for three mana. There's a reason no one runs that card, and its because counters that cost more then the stuff they're countering are bad.

Also, 2 Chrome Mox is exceedingly random. The likelihood of actually being able to take advantage of Chrome Mox's effect with only two of them is just about nil, and they're the worst topdecks you could ever imagine late in the game.

Not running Ancestral Vision and Propaganda maindeck basically guarantees you will never ever be able to win a single game against Goblins, no matter what you play. The two cards combine to give you a midgame that can actually keep you up on cards while dealing with the myriad threats Goblins (or any other aggro really) can throw at you, and not running them is a very easy to way to guarantee you will lose the aggro matchup every time.

I would advise cutting Dissapate for Powder Keg, cutting Brainstorm and the fetchlands for islands and fitting in some Mana Leaks or Rune Snags. Then you can cut the Spell Snare and Forbid (and probably the Force Spikes too) to find room for another Chrome Mox and some Propagandas.

As far as Ancestral Vision growing weaker over time, I highly advise you actually go out and test it. If you do, you will find that the effect is well worth waiting 4 turns for, considering it's very hard to lose a fight over a card that costs no mana on the turn its effect resolves in a deck with 12+ counterspells. Being able to drop one on turns 1-3 and know that your hand will be totally refilled in a few turns is a huge advantage, because it allows you to spend resources as necessary to keep yourself alive while not burning out because the Vision restocks your hand so effectively. Also, you run Fact or Fiction in addition to Visions, so by the time Visions starts to lose some of it's effectiveness, Fact can take over and carry the late game.

[Tacosnape]

Okay, so, our team's decided to pick this up, and we have a couple questions.

1. If you aren't running Brainstorm, why do Fetchlands go in this deck?

2. If you -are- running Brainstorm, is there any reason this deck doesn't attempt to use Sensei's Divining Top / Counterbalance?

[Kadaj]

1. If you're not running Brainstorm, fetchlands don't go into this deck.

2. The reason is twofold, in my opinion. First off, Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance require a minimum of 5 slots (more realistically 6) to be effective, and the only things you can really get away with cutting without conceding way too much initiative are counterspells. At that point, you start cutting away with the primary role this deck wants to take, which is the control role. This deck doesn't run a lot of dig so it is less equipped to find Counterbalance early, which leads into the second point.

MUC is not properly equipped to take advantage of the effect Counterbalance creates. Threshold is the perfect deck for Counterbalance because it can utilize that tempo to win the game quickly. MUC would not be able to do that, and thus the effect created by Counterbalance would simply be one of a board jammer so to speak. A similar effect can be created (and it usually is) through Propaganda, Vedalken Shackles, and B2B, all things that serve crucial roles to MUC while still allowing it to maintain it's general function and role, something Counterbalance is not adept at.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I also forsee the invitational card making its way into this deck as a four-of... should it be printed as is. I think it reads:

(best land ever)
Tap: add colorless to your mana pool

2UU, discard (best land ever): Counter target spell.

Can I be the first to say that such a card will not see print, it would totally own T2, one more mana then the current "T2 hard counter", uncounterable and a land, not likely in my book. They will nerf it by adding atleast one mana and maybe making it come into play tapped or something (and it would still be ultra-playable in T2).

[4eak]

1. If you aren't running Brainstorm, why do Fetchlands go in this deck?

2. If you -are- running Brainstorm, is there any reason this deck doesn't attempt to use Sensei's Divining Top / Counterbalance?

1.) Fetchlands thin your deck and allow you to maximize card quality. Even without brainstorms, a few fetchlands is not out of the question. I'm not saying MUC should be running 8 fetchlands, but there is still major benefits to deck thinning. The minimal lifeloss incurred is worth the consistently higher card quality. Playing with a 56-card deck has major advantages.

Fetchlands also creates a smooth mana curve (not just a colored curve, but even the rate at which you see lands throughout the game). I want a maximal chance to draw lands early game, but I want that chance to start sloping down after I hit my 3rd and 4th lands. Fetchlands improve card quality not just from a 60 to 56-card deck perspective, but it strictly improves your card quality per use. Essentially, fetchlands mitigate the diminishing values of mid and late game land draws. Fetchlands help you see lands when you want to see them (early game), and they help you not see land when you don't want to see them (mid-late game).

Additionally, fetchlands can allow MUC to splash very easily (perhaps you wanted STP in the side or whatever).

2.) CounterTop has no place in MUC. Not only does the "combo" take up several slots, it fails to fix MUC weaknesses. CounterTop belongs in a deck that is looking for more short-term solutions and disruption (aggro-control) or better non-board sweeping, pin-point removal (for something that resembles a lock). Threshold, for example, is a much better deck for countertop. Countertop is entirely "win-more" in MUC, and in the end, it really lowers the effectiveness of MUC itself. Brainstorm or not, you shouldn't see CounterTop in MUC.

peace,
4eak

[TeKo]

Wouldn't be Guile funny in MUC, with 12+ Counters?
http://magiccards.info/lw/en/69.html

EDIT: a bit tired i think

[Lego]

2nd Turn Goyf on ur Site or something.

I'm not even sure what this means, but you do realize that you actually have to play Guile for him to have any effect, right? That's 6 mana. Once you play your lategame bombs, your opponent shouldn't have too many spells left that you care about.

[Bardo]

Additionally, fetchlands can allow MUC to splash very easily (perhaps you wanted STP in the side or whatever).

This is the principal reason I see running them here -- though Brainstorm obviously makes the case for fetchlands in a monocolored control deck much more compelling.

I'm really enamored with the Japanese list I posted above, which runs a singleton Swamp and Plains just to get more bang from Engineered Explosives in the maindeck, with a sideboard splash of Extirpate in StP (via Cunning Wish).

The question is, does the benefit of a greater potency with EE and the light sideboard splash compensate for however the off-color basics weaken Shackles (and possibly Morphling)?


Playing with a 56-card deck has major advantages.


It's only a 56 card deck if you draw all four of them. Which is unlikely, at best. It's more like playing with a 58 card deck.

[Cait_Sith]

Fetchlands function much like Cantrips, they do -1 card to your library. In this case they specifically take out lands.

However, MUC is the single most mana hungry control deck out there, as almost every good finisher you can play demands you keep mana open, plus the fact Shackles can need a periodic influx of mana as well. To keep up with this, you want as many lands as possible, and adding in the 6 fetchlands to make them relevant means cutting into your mana lands.

To make matters worse, there are still decks that run main deck Stifles and a fair number with Stifles in the sideboard. MUC normally runs enough problematic triggered abilities to make Stifle worthwhile, but since those abilities tend not to show up quickly, and MUc needs to hit its first 3-4 land drops with tremendous consistency, a Stifle on a fetchland can equal a tremendous disaster, an opportunity most players will not pass up.

Finally, the life loss from fetches is VERY relevant in MUC, because MUC lacks any early game removal. It relies on keeping your opponent's ability to do damage as low as possible before finally shutting off their early hitters. The 2 to 3 life loss can easily mean an attack your opponent does not have to make.

[4eak]

It's only a 56 card deck if you draw all four of them. Which is unlikely, at best. It's more like playing with a 58 card deck.

Assuming you use them when you see them, fetchlands are -1 to your library total.

In the elimination of one card from your library, fetchlands act as a Cantrip type Deck-thinning, which doesn't require you to use all of them to receive the benefits of having all of them in your deck. The only requirement for the cantrip-thinning effect is that you will use them when you have them. Fetchlands act like cantrip-thinning in this respect. Assuming you use them when you see them, and regardless of whether you saw/used any at all, 4 fetchlands make a 56 card deck.

The difference between a fetch and cantrip, of course, is that fetch gets a land specifically. The tutoring effect, which also thins your deck, mitigates the diminishing values of mid and late game land draws, allowing you to draw more relevant cards (spells). Fetchlands change the land to spell ratio in your favor throughout the game (which is actually a different effect than the -1 library effect of a cantrip).

Cait_Sith brings up a very relevant reason not to run fetchlands: stifle. In an aggro-control vs control match, tempo-disruption like stifle can be a deciding factor.

The lifeloss is misunderstood. You gain consistently better cards by choosing to spend, on average, 2-3 life over the course of the game. The average card quality gains can often be worth lifeloss. If you see 30 cards on an average game, and you run 4 fetches, then you'll spend, on average, 2 life to have a 56-card deck. Is 2 life worth the quality gains of having a 56-card deck instead of a 60-card deck? Often times it is worth the lifeloss.

In my experience, Brainstorm and fetchlands are a mainstay of blue-based decks. MUC, specifically, is constantly trying to balance their active hand with the right amount of different elements: permission, board control, and card advantage (and sometimes a win condition, eh?). Cantrips and fetchlands allow that balance to happen. Brainstorm and Fetchlands glue the components of a deck together, and it lets you run only the best versions of a component instead of opting to run lower-quality components in the place of the cantrip effect.

peace,
4eak

[Kadaj]

That argument would be relevant if all of the board control pieces in MUC did exactly the same thing for the same amount of mana, which of course they do not. Playing Brainstorm reduces the room for other, far more important, effects like Propaganda, Powder Keg, Shackles, and B2B while providing a card filtering mechanism that's not at all optimal in a deck with only 5 or 6 fetchlands as shuffle methods.

I said it before, I'll say it again. Brainstorm without a shuffle effect is an awful effect. An utterly terrible one. If you told me that I had a choice between running Brainstorm without the ability to shuffle afterwards and Counsel of the Soratami I would choose Counsel.

Part of optimizing a deck is deciding what are the necessary evils and what are the unnecessary evils, and then removing the unnecessary evils. A necessary evil in MUC is running cards like Shackles, Keg, and Propaganda in order to deal with aggro based decks that would otherwise run you over. An unnecessary evil is running Brainstorm, which has a significant potential to backfire horribly by drawing you into garbage but not a shuffle effect to get rid of it, and even at it's best only offers an effect that could easily be replicated by a card like Impulse. A card that has serious drawbacks in this specific deck and provides an easily replicatable effect through other cards that lack these drawbacks is the very definition of an unnecessary evil.

Past that, the deck thinning aspect of Fetchlands is among the bigger myths in magic. The mathematical increase in probability that you will draw a certain after a fetchland is so miniscule that it's almost completely irrelevant over the course of a game. However, losing 1-3 life to effectively do nothing, other than open yourself up to stifle, over the course of a game can have a huge impact and could easily lose you a game against any deck looking to kill you through your life total.

[Doks]

Personally, I keep playing Brainstorm.
With six Fetchlands it has been a very safe cardfilter I will rely on. That does not exclude running Impulse in addition to Brainstorm. (by the way: in a version with a W splash, Eternal Dragon offers a steady shuffle option, too).

Dissipate:

What is so important to keep it from recurring that you need to run it?
The core counters are:

4 Fow
4 Counterspell

In the current metagame, Spell Snare has proven to be worth it, so add 3-4 Spell Snare.

What do you guys think about Misdirection as a 5th (or even 6th) FoW in counterwars against all that control / aggrocontrol?
MUC has already an answer to annoying things like Hymn / Thoughtseize / Sink Hole (typical black disruption in general) MB then.
It even reflects the removal from your Teferi / Meloku to their own critters while not generating carddisadvantage.

[Bahamuth]

Could someone please explain me what's so awesome about Propaganda? To me it only seems to give you a bit more time to find permanent answers like Keg and Shackles, and I'd think counters could do the same thing...

Also, I'd like to encourage everyone to keep posting your updated lists. I think that is important since there are so many different lists possible.

[Kadaj]

Propaganda prevents Threshold from attacking you and cantripping at the same time, they have to choose one or the other. It will also more than likely eliminate at least one attacker because Threshold will rarely have that much mana available at one time. It also prevents Goblins from running you over in the midgame, which is by far this deck's biggest weakness, and if you can get two of them out at once very few decks will be able to attack you with any consistency.

Propaganda costs one initial mana investment, and that's it, allowing it to act as another lock piece so to speak. It's also utterly brutal in combination with Shackles or Back To Basics. Also, seriously, I urge you to actually test this stuff before you question it. I had initially discarded both Ancestral Vision and Propaganda as either too slow or too ineffective, and then completely forgot about them for a while. However, after I actually decided to test the two of them it became apparent that my initial impressions were totally off. Something I would never have been able to realize without actually going out and testing it.

[Silthyn]

Propaganda prevents Threshold from attacking you and cantripping at the same time, they have to choose one or the other. It will also more than likely eliminate at least one attacker because Threshold will rarely have that much mana available at one time. It also prevents Goblins from running you over in the midgame, which is by far this deck's biggest weakness, and if you can get two of them out at once very few decks will be able to attack you with any consistency.

Propaganda costs one initial mana investment, and that's it, allowing it to act as another lock piece so to speak. It's also utterly brutal in combination with Shackles or Back To Basics. Also, seriously, I urge you to actually test this stuff before you question it. I had initially discarded both Ancestral Vision and Propaganda as either too slow or too ineffective, and then completely forgot about them for a while. However, after I actually decided to test the two of them it became apparent that my initial impressions were totally off. Something I would never have been able to realize without actually going out and testing it.

I have to agree with you about Ancestral Vision. I thought it was way too slow and useless in the lategame. When I actually tested it, it was great. The feeling to cast FoF at EoT, and then the next turn draw 4 cards was wonderful. I won that game btw ;)

Propaganda is also useful against the most decks. If you happen to meet SI or Loam or something, just board it out. ^_^

Speaking of sideboard, how would you build your sideboard?

[Kadaj]

My sideboard is currently:

X4 Stifle
X4 Blue Elemental Blast
X3 Repeal
X1 Propaganda
X1 Vedalken Shackles
X1 Powder Keg
X1 Back to Basics

Stifle is for combo, Blue Elemental Blast is for anything with red, Repeal is for anything with cheap creatures, and the rest are to refine the deck depending on the specific matchup you might be facing.

[Bahamuth]

My sideboard is currently:

X4 Stifle
X4 Blue Elemental Blast
X3 Repeal
X1 Propaganda
X1 Vedalken Shackles
X1 Powder Keg
X1 Back to Basics

Stifle is for combo, Blue Elemental Blast is for anything with red, Repeal is for anything with cheap creatures, and the rest are to refine the deck depending on the specific matchup you might be facing.

Please give me your list with Propaganda and Visions, so I can test that out. I'd rather start out with a list that's already been tested than my own probably worse creation...

Why aren't you playing Chalice in the sideboard? It's the single most awesome card in my board. It comes in vs. combo (playing one on 1 vs. TES is nearly lethal, on 0 is quite good too) and it's great vs. thresh.

[Silthyn]

I might as well post my list too ^_^

// Lands
22 Island

// Creatures
2 Morphling
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror

// Counterspells
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
1 Forbid

// Spells
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Powder Keg
3 Propaganda
4 Impulse
4 Ancestral Vision

[TeKo]

Here is my list, any suggestions?
Lands (22)
22 Islands

Creatures (3)
1 Teferi
1 Morphling
1 Meloku

Counter (15)
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle (I think they are good against fetching basics)
1 Forbid

Spells (20)
4 Impulse
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 B2B
3 Cunning Wish
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Propaganda
1 Ancestral Vision or Flash of Insight, with the Wish?


SB

1 Stifle
1 Spell Snare
1 Forbid
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hydroblast
1 Wipe Away
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection

3 Chill (Goblin/Burn)
3 Powder Keg (should I play them main?)

[Tao]

This is going into a wrong direction so Ifeel he need to say something:

Anyone, play Brainstorm/Fetchlands! Listen: BRAINSTORM DOES NOT TAKE AWAY SLOTS. You can just reduce your deck by the 4 weakest cards and thus improve your your Topdecking ability by card selection.

That can be for example 1 land, the worst Counter, the worst Card Draw and the worst Board control spell and by this you will increase your chances of Drawing into the better ones. Furthermore Brainstorm / Fetchland or at least Brainstorm/Impulse or Brainstorm/Intuiotion is run for a reason in all Non-Faerie-Stompy blue decks that has succeeded in Formats where both cards were legal: Because it is insanely strong.

[Kadaj]

And I feel the need to dispel that myth, because in this deck quantity wins out over quality. If this deck was playing 4 cards that were clearly weaker then the others then Brainstorm would be an easy thing to add, because, as you said, in that case it would not be taking away slots. However, what would you suggest I cut from the following list:

X22 Islands
X3 Chrome Mox

X2 Back To Basics
X2 Vedalken Shackles
X3 Propaganda
X3 Ancestral Vision
X3 Powder Keg
X3 Impulse
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Counterspell
X4 Force Of Will
X4 Rune Snag
X2 Morphling
X1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror

The above is my current list. If you can suggest 4 cards to cut that would not completely shred this deck's matchups then I'll gladly reevaluate Brainstorm's slots in this deck. However, as of right now, I can say with confidence that having been testing this deck for over a year at this point (not in this specific build, but over several builds) that adding Brainstorm and cutting cards from this list would badly upset the balance that this deck has managed to achieve through running certain combinations of cards.

No one is claiming that Brainstorm+Shuffle Effect is not an extremely powerful and variable effect, because it is, there's no doubt about that. But it does not automatically go into every deck ever created that happens to have blue in it. Every card in the above list is very important to the way the deck runs, and I would challenge that by adding Brainstorm and fetchlands you would be making the deck far more vulnerable to falling apart simply because you didn't draw Brainstorm, or you didn't draw Brainstorm AND a fetchland.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why 5 or 6 fetchlands is an adequet number of shuffle effects to support Brainstorm. Decks like Threshold run 6 fetches, and potentially 10 other cantrips to clear away the top of your library. This deck runs 6 fetchlands at most, and maybe Impulse if you want to count that as a likely thing to do after a Brainstorm. The likelihood of not being able to shuffle post Brainstorm is so much higher in this deck than any other running it, and that is more than enough reason for me to seek alternative solutions.

Also, I direct to a quote from Stephen Menendian's article on Mono Blue Control in Vintage that I based my initial testings of a Brainstormless version on:


It just so happens that Brainstorm is bad in mono-Blue. The only way Brainstorm is good is if, 100% of the time, or a percentage approaching that, you can shuffle afterward. The need to modulate your answers in a specific and effective way means that drawing two cards you don't want and have already seen is simply terrible. The deck is so redundant that simply seeing more cards isn't necessary as it would be in a deck with many different parts. Impulse is much better at that than Brainstorm.

The article in question can be found here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7927.html

[Tao]

However, what would you suggest I cut from the following list:


I can't build your deck, our approaches to Mono-U are too different. However I'd go with 1-2 lands, 1 fact and something else. I don't like Visions at all and would never run them, but that's just my opinion to a completely different topic, so ignore it.



Every card in the above list is very important to the way the deck runs, and I would challenge that by adding Brainstorm and fetchlands you would be making the deck far more vulnerable to falling apart simply because you didn't draw Brainstorm


Yes, Brainstorm happens to be bad when you don't draw it. But hey, you draw other cards then, namely those you reduced before adding Brainstorm.



or you didn't draw Brainstorm AND a fetchland.


If you don't draw a and can't wait for a Fetchland, Brainstorm is NOT bad. Then it is just a 1-Mana cantrip.that brings you one card closer to your solutions.



It just so happens that Brainstorm is bad in mono-Blue. The only way Brainstorm is good is if, 100% of the time, or a percentage approaching that, you can shuffle afterward.


The article is about Vintage and that format is a piece of turn-1-kill shit, so I can't say anything about it, but in Legacy that is not true. Here is where he is wrong: The only way that Brainstorm is BROKEN is when you are able to shuffle afterwards, the other times it is just good.

Now, the three reasons why you should run 4 Brainstorms:

- retarded with Fetchland
- increases the chance of Turn 1 Force of Will by ~30%
- otherwise a 1-Mana cantrip that finds needed solutions 2 turns earlier

[Kadaj]

I think that's where the fundamental disagreements lie here. I believe Brainstorm without a fetchland is an awful effect. You clearly don't. Because of that difference in opinion, you are far more inclined to run Brainstorm even though the likelihood of being able to shuffle afterwards isn't nearly as high in this deck as it is in others, whereas that issue pushes me towards finding alternate cards to fit into those slots.

I'd be happy to debate with you all day about the merits of Brainstorm without a fetchland as a good effect versus a bad effect, but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't go anywhere with it. I'm just not a big fan of Brainstorming into Chrome Moxes and lands when I'm looking for business and knowing that two turns down the line I still wouldn't have found what I was looking for, whereas if that Brainstorm was an Impulse, or even a Ponder, the chaff on the top of the library would be gone and I would be that much closer to what I need.

Also, accusing Vintage of being a turn 1 kill-shit format and then turning around and touting increased turn one FoW percentage as a reason to play Brainstorm in Legacy seems a little backwards. Force of Will is not as crucial to this deck as it is in Vintage, for exactly the reasons you've pointed out. The only decks that kill you on turn 1 in Legacy are decks like TES and SI, and neither of those with any consistency. Even if Goblins drops a Lackey and you don't have a Force, you can still just drop Propaganda and delay until you draw a Powder Keg or a Shackles, which reduces this decks reliance of Force in the only other matchup where something resolving on turn 1 will cost you the game.

[Bahamuth]

Kadaj, your list seems so perfect to play Chalice of the Void. You don't play a single 1CC spell, not even one, you have Chrome Moxes to drop them turn 1. Please consider putting them in your sideboard at least.

I've been thinking about a list that's a bit like a combination between MUC and Faerie Stompy. It would utilize 2-mana land and Chrome Moxes to drop Back to Basics and other artifact bombs like Chalice very quickly and gain fast advantage trough playing quick FoF's. Also, Vision would be very good in a list like that, since it doesn't get countered by a Chalice at 1 and provides loads of cardadvantage once your hand is drained. I'm really not sure how good this idea would be, but if anyone else thinks this might be competitive at least, please help me out with this.

I'm really not sold on playing Chrome Mox in traditional MUC by the way. MUC is a deck that wins games on cardadvantage, and Chrome Mox doesn't seem to do that really. Tough in the list you posted the card seems necessarily.

[Kadaj]

Being able to play cards like Propaganda, Fact, or Back to Basics a turn earlier is well worth the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox, especially considering Visions more than makes up for that later down the road. If I were to run Chalice, I would run it instead of all of the 1ofs in the board. About half a year ago or so there was a "Chalice MUC" list running around. I believe Doks did pretty well with it in Germany, so he would be the one to ask for info on that.

Especially considering I don't run Brainstorm, or even Force Spike or Spell Snare, Chrome Mox helps bring the overall speed of the deck up. It also allows you to get away with playing so few lands (older versions of MUC traditionally ran 25+ lands).

The major issue I see with that idea is the disynergy between the 2 mana lands and Back to Basics. I've tried to build a BBS style deck on occasion and problem usually ends up being lack of staying power. Ancestral Visions might be the solution there, and I do think the idea definitely has some level of potential, so I'd be interested to hear how it goes.

[Bahamuth]

The antisynergy between Back to Basics and 2-mana land is definately something to note. Maybe it would be better to not run a fully accelerated list with as much mana-producing options available, but try to find some balance. Like a list that would do good in late-game, but still has the opportunity to drop a turn 1 Chalice for 1, which will definately own a great number of decks, or even a turn 1 Back to Basics, since even tough you cripple yourself with that effect, numerous decks, the main example being Landstill, will be completely overwhelmed by that effect. In those occasions, the loss of one or several turns is definitely worth it.

Doks, if you have been playing this kind of deck, please post a list or something I can try to work on.

Kadaj, you really haven't answered why you aren't playing Chalice. I'd like to hear your reasoning for this decision.

[Kadaj]

My reasoning for not playing Chalice is more or less that I don't think it helps the matchups you need help in enough. Sure it's a bomb against Thresh, but almost your entire SB already comes in against Thresh, you don't need more help in that regard. Stifle is more verasitle against things like Combo and Landstill, and the other slots (BEB) are totally irreplaceable.

If I were to run Chalice in my board it would definitely be instead of the 4 one ofs, but it hasn't been doing enough for me to warrant it.

[Tao]

Yes, there is a strong disagreement between you me abotu Brainstorm without Shuffle effect. For me it is a slightly upgraded cycling for 1 Mana, but for you it seems to be game losing.

[Kadaj]

I fully believe that Brainstorming into garbage and not being able to get rid of it is game losing, yes. On the other side of the coin, I view Brainstorming into good cards and knowing they're coming up as an easily replicated effect, one that does not require you risk not having a shuffle effect and drawing into cards you not only don't want to see, but can't get rid of when you do.

I stress that I do not believe that Brainstorm with a shuffle effect is a bad combination. Far from it, I believe it's probably the best card filtering mechanism in a vacuum in all of magic. However, I also believe that to make Brainstorm into that consistent card filtering machine that it definitely has the potential to be, you need more than 6 or so shuffle effects, lest you risk getting a lesser effect out of a card you're relying on to be so much more.

[Tao]

Ok, let's assume 3 bad cards are on top of your library.

What if it was a normal cantrip and you'd see the bad cards two turns later?
What if you don't play any cantrip at all in that time?

Is the situation getting better then?

[Doks]

I played this deck 3 month in a row at Germany's Dülmen when aggrocontrol, especially NQG in all its variants, was the deck to beat (-> Spell Snare despite Chalice MB).
I searched for a version that could handle fast combo (first TES / Iggy Pop combos appeared in my metagame) and runs solid against NQG (Spell Snare).
Since Goblin wasn't on the decline then, I did rely on a 6 Hydroblast / BEB plan postboard (which really paid out).
I earned much criticism for running such a low Manacount but as far as I remember I only took 1 Mulligan out of mana problems. You usually keep each hand with 2-4 sources and then chain with Impulse and FoF into the needed Mana. TfK really helps as it fills the eot 3CC draw and dumps useless Moxen / Chalices.
The low manacount has a very big advantage: your FoF is going to be broken since the quantity of spells is very high (I had more than 40% of all FoFs including one or no (!) manasource, which makes FoF very hard to pile).
Spell Snares were great at all 3 tournaments I was attending and so I went - only naming remarkable results -

4th place
9th place

with each tournament 7 rounds with ~ 60-70 players.


MB:

19 Island
3 Chrome Mox

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare

4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Repeal
2 Powder Keg
2 Back to Basics

3 Morphling


SB:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Powder Keg
1 Spell Snare

These days, the list does not look solid enough to me anymore and I doubt I would run it again without modifications, but this list is a very good example that you have to tweak your MUC depending on the metagame as you usually should do to increase your chances placing some of the upper places.
The idea of "Chalice MUC" was there, but it hasn't seen play much, but was just a bomb regarding to these environments.


So far,

Doks

[ParkerLewis]

Ok, let's assume 3 bad cards are on top of your library.

What if it was a normal cantrip and you'd see the bad cards two turns later?
What if you don't play any cantrip at all in that time?

Is the situation getting better then?

Yes, because if you're not playing Brainstorm then it will be either Ponder or Impulse, both of which will allow you to get rid of the bad cards without any exterior shuffling effect.

[Tao]

Wrong. You are not runing Brainstorm instead of 4 other draw spells, you are running it instead of, for example, 1 Draw Spell, 1 Land, 1 Counter and 1 Board control card.

[etrigan]

What if it was a normal cantrip and you'd see the bad cards two turns later?

As said, Ponder or Impulse will get past the 3 bad cards. Even Opt, Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions will lessen the number of bad cards you draw here. Brainstorm is this situation is definitively bad because Brainstorm cannot change the top 3 cards.


What if you don't play any cantrip at all in that time?

Then you still have 3 bad cards on the top, and casting Brainstorm does nothing to help this. Replace that Brainstorm with either 1 land, 1 draw spell, 1 counter or 1 board control card, and would arguably be in a better position that if you had Brainstormed into 3 bad cards.

Although this depends heavily on the definition of 'bad cards'. Depending on the game state, those 'bad cards' will probably include some combination of draw spells, lands, counters and board control cards. Then you ask yourself whether you want a random card from not playing Brainstorm, or your immediate selection of 3 bad cards.

Or just play a better cantrip and have more card selection.

[gosumog]

What are some changes you can make for combo meta. I was thinking - some shackles/repeal for disrupt lol. i guess my real question what are good cards to mainboard against combo meta and what should u put to the side, also how is spellsnare against combo?

or maybe moxes out for force spike? i am new to MUC so i probably sound stupid
is misdirection mainly used to stop counters?

[Tao]

I am going to ignore any "Ponder, Opt, Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions are better than Brainstorm" comments.

For Impulse vs. Brainstorm: Impulse is one Mana more and so it obviously has a better effect. But it still can't change your HAND.

Speaking about HAND CARDS and BAD CARDS. In a deck with situanional cards like B2B, Shackles and Powder Keg (and of course Mana), shuffling useless cards back into the library is twice as good as in straight decks like Red Threshold in which every spell is doing something.
___

Again, you are not Playing 4 Brainstorms instead of one particular slot. You begin building the deck with Mana, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Counterspell, 4 FOW and THEN begin filling up the remaining slots with Win Conditions, Board Control, additional counters and Card Draw.

So it may look like cutting 4 Brainstorms for 3 "Spell X" and 1 Island will increase the number of spells you are drawing, but in reality that number does not change at all.


__________

Edit:
What are some changes you can make for combo meta.

If you want a spell in the maindeck that is solid against the field, but very strong against Combo, go for Stifle.

[etrigan]

I am going to ignore any "Ponder, Opt, Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions are better than Brainstorm" comments.

Without a shuffle effect, yes, they are.

If we're talking about Brainstorm+shuffle, then yes, Brainstorm is amazing.

Brainstorm alone gives you the best of the top 3 cards of you library. It does virtually nothing to improve you draws in the upcoming turns. The two cards you put back are still the two cards you put back. Ponder, Opt, etc. can improve your future draws, which is something Brainstorm alone cant do.

[nightbringer]

Hi,

I would like to start playing this deck but im not sure what is the best list for my meta.

There is lots of combo (5 ichorid, 1Tes, 2 belcher, 2 breakfast, 1solidarity) and lots of aggro control

[Bahamuth]

There is no best list. MUC isn't a deck you can netdeck easily. You'll have to find a list which goed well with your own playstyle and preference. I can give you some advice tough.

Much combo means you'll have to use some more slots for those matchups. I prefer Chalice in this case, but others like Kadaj like Stifle more. Beating Ichroid with this deck is quite hard. I'd suggest playing 3 Propaganda, since those will give you loads and loads of time to stabilize.

It'd be good for you to read through the entire thread. It's a lot of work, but if you're really willing to play this deck it'll be worth the effort.

[Kadaj]

Frankly, if your metagame has a ton of Ichorid, I reccomend playing a different deck. If you're dead set on playing MUC I would run 4 Propaganda, 4 Powder Keg, and probably 2 Echoing Truth in the main instead of some of the more traditional board control elements. You're going to need a lot of luck to beat Ichorid with MUC though.

[Hoojo]

Would Leyline of Singularity help with the Ichorid matchup? The fact that it pitches to Force of Will is a bonus, and it keeps hordes of tokens from hitting the board without them removing your leyline first. Really though, MUC is slow to go against a deck that hardly, if at all, plays any spells.

[Jaynel]

I've been running it in my board, and it's pretty solid. It essentially negates Bridges from Below (a single 2/2 Zombie isn't scary) and allows only 1 Ichorid (equally... unscary) and 1 Narcomoeba in play at a time. Even more convenient, it pitches to Disrupting Shoal to counter Dread Return for Golgari Grave-Troll.

[TeKo]

I thought the "new" Ichorid runs Ray of Revelation.

[Hoojo]

I thought the "new" Ichorid runs Ray of Revelation.

Which can be countered. Leyline of Singularity gives you an "out" versus a deck that you won't be able to beat normally. Its not a "silver bullet" but that is what I would run if you dead on playing this deck in that matchup.

[nightbringer]

Thanks for the advice.

This is the decklist i have been working on.

16 Island
3 Flooded strand
3 polluted delta

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare

3 Impulse
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Brainstorm

3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Repeal
3 engineered explosives
3 Back to Basics

2 Morphling
2 jace


SB:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of Singularity
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Arcane Laboratory
1 spell snare

[Rood]

Thanks for the advice.

This is the decklist i have been working on.

16 Island
3 Flooded strand
3 polluted delta

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare

3 Impulse
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Brainstorm

3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Repeal
3 engineered explosives
3 Back to Basics

2 Morphling
2 jace


SB:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of Singularity
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Arcane Laboratory
1 spell snare


Why Explosives? Is it simple in there with the intent of killing a mongoose for 1?..you may want to add in another colored source simple to abuse it more.

[ForceofWill]

Explosives is needed in a deck like this for two major reasons in the format. Number one is aether vial and number 2 is empty the warrens.

[Tao]

- 4 Island
+ 2 Fetchies
+ 1 Swamp
+ 1 Plains


And you can reliably cast Explosives for 2 (Goyf, Counterbalance) with only a minimal risk to colorscrew yourself and you still untap unde B2B

[nightbringer]

Like i said my meta is heavy combo and aggro control so there are lots of 0 mana artifacts, vial, tokens and mongose.

I like the idea of the 2 basic land for beter explosives.
Has there been a version of this deck that uses cunning wish to abuse the 2 basics a bit more? (extirpate, grip, swords,... on side)

[Tao]

I don't like Cunning Wish in MUC. It is slow. And even worse : it takes away SB slots.

But you really want to have 4 Back to Basics, 4 Powder Kegs / Explosives and 4 Propaganda (plus some Crypts and Anti-Red stuff) after Boarding and can only play some of them maindeck.

[cheddercaveman]

Explosives is needed in a deck like this for two major reasons in the format. Number one is aether vial and number 2 is empty the warrens.

I'm going to go ahead and play the devils advocate here that no one really thinks of. Powder Keg is BETTER than EE at dealing with empty the warrens. Keg costs :2: to take out EtW tokens, EE will cost you :2: to deal with warrens tokens. Ok, now, vial. This one is a bit of a different argument, but I think you can go either way on this one. If you have 3 mana you can drop the EE and blow it to take out the vial. However, they play vial (turn 1). You drop keg (either turn 1 if your on the draw w/ chrome mox, or turn 2 if your on the play), turn 2 they vial out something, your next turn you put keg at 1, and blow the vial and whatever they vialed in (it could only be at one at this point).

For MUC i see no reason to mess with the mana base just to be able to run EE over the Keg.

[Tao]

Powder Keg is BETTER than EE at dealing with empty the warrens.Keg costs :2: to take out EtW tokens, EE will cost you :2: to deal with warrens tokens.

wtf, that just makes NO sense. They both are exactly on one level against ETW tokens.


For MUC i see no reason to mess with the mana base just to be able to run EE over the Keg.

The reason is obvious, Explosives is the better card, especially when topdecked - you don't have to take 2 attacks from Tarmogoyf before you can blow him up.

Therefore testing Explosives is justifiable.

[Jander78]

Here is a list I piloted to a top 8 finish at a recent tournament:

4 x Force of Will
4 x Counterspell
2 x Misdirection
1 x Disrupting Shoal
1 x Spell Snare
3 x Force Spike

4 x Brainstorm
3 x Fact or Fiction
3 x Cunning Wish
3 x Engineered Explosives

1 x Morphling
1 x Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 x Rainbow Efreet
3 x Vedalkan Shackles
3 x Back to Basics

3 x Polluted Delta
3 x Flooded Strand
1 x Plains
1 x Swamp
15 x Island

SB:
1 x Divert
1 x Disrupting Shoal
1 x Pongify
2 x Tormods crypt
1 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Extirpate
1 x Echoing Truth
1 x Stifle
3 x Hydroblast
1 x Hibernation
1 x Misdirection
1 x Fact or fiction

The deck is a take on the Japanese lists that had recent sucess at their tournaments.

Cunning Wish - Wish gives the deck maindeck answers to some huge problems. It allows the deck to be more efficient in sideboarding and also allows you to take advantage of the 2 different colors that are "splashed".

Engineered Explosives vs. Powder Keg - In my opinion Explosives is just the better card. Against 0cc they are essentially the same, anything from 1-3 is where Explosives stands out as the better card. Being able to deal with a problem right now and not in 1-3 turns makes Explosives a greater asset and well worth the splash. Keg gives the opponent turns to find an answer and, let's face it, with Tarmagoyf in the format sometimes 2 turns is well enough for them to win.

Color Splash - I was a little skeptical at first myself, but after testing the deck, the slight splash in color by the addition of 2 lands doesn't hinder the deck at all. It's actually been quite the improvement. Without having to dedicate and support an entire color in this deck, the splash allows some key answers to be used from the sideboard, and as slight as they are, they are extremely effective. Extirpate can just win you games hands down. It is extremely effective in the control mirror or any deck that is running a low count of win conditions. Swords is obviously the best creature removal in the format and it shows its worth in this deck.

Pongify - I feel the need to justify this slot in the sideboard. I wouldn't be running this card if it wasn't for Cunning Wish. Pongify is there to work with Shackles. When you can steal a creature, block with it (usually taking out 2 of the opponents creatures), and with damage on the stack, Pognify it, you end up way ahead in the arms race. I'm still not convinced it's the perfect choice, for now I continue to run it as it is a great tool.

[nightbringer]

I like your list and i think i will test the wish in my version to.
Why do you spash white over green, just for swords?

What you you guys think about jace in this deck?

[Jak]

It is because Flooded Strand gets you the plains. There is no blue/green fetch, sadly. I really like that list a lot. Plenty of counter magic, draw, and win conditions. Why not throw in 1 or 2 Academy Ruins? Recurring EE is nice because you seem to lack the sweepers.

[Jander78]

I like your list and i think i will test the wish in my version to.
Why do you spash white over green, just for swords?
I don't see what green would offer over white or black. The deck is still Mono-U and the 2 other lands are there to make Explosives better. Remember, you're not really splashing to abuse another color. That is why the off color cards are restricted as Sideboard Only options.

What you you guys think about jace in this deck?
I don't think Jace belongs in this deck. The draw is too slow (albeit continuous), and I wouldn't find any card worthy of Jace replacing.

Why not throw in 1 or 2 Academy Ruins? Recurring EE is nice because you seem to lack the sweepers.
Back to Basics

[Bahamuth]

I like how you use Cunning Wish to make the splash more usefull than just the EEs. The thing I don't like is that your board is completely filled with wish-targets, exept for, as far as I can tell, 5 cards. Could it be done with, say, just 7 wish targets?

Also, why no Propaganda's?

How were the Misdirections?

Edit: And a question for everyone: How many win conditions is the way to go? 2 or 3?

[Jander78]

The thing I don't like is that your board is completely filled with wish-targets, exept for, as far as I can tell, 5 cards. Could it be done with, say, just 7 wish targets?
I agree with you on this. That sideboard is what I used in the last tournament. It was ad-hoc as I had to create it on the fly since I showed up late and without the proper cards.

Ideally I would probably run this as my sideboard:
2-3 x Arcane Laboratory
2-3 x Tormods crypt
0-1 x Pongify
0-1 x Misdirection
3 x Hydroblast
1 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Extirpate
1 x Echoing Truth
1 x Stifle
1 x Hibernation
1 x Fact or Fiction


Also, why no Propaganda's?
I honestly never noticed a need for Propaganda. It is a good card and has decent synergy with Back to Basics, but I didn't find it necessary as between Explosives and Shackles I usually handled opposing threats with ease.


How were the Misdirections?
Great. Against certain decks they can be dead, but that was rare. They function mainly as FoW 5-6, but sometimes just let you rape the opponenet on Hymn's or Deep Analysis. I could see certain environments where Misdirection would be overkill and dead too often to justify, but that would be a metagaming call.


Edit: And a question for everyone: How many win conditions is the way to go? 2 or 3?
I've always felt comfortable with 3 primary win conditions. Sometimes you need to get one down quick and just go at the opponent. With only 2, you may not find one in time.

[Bahamuth]

To be honest, I think Arcane Lab is rather bad. Why not play Chalice in it's place? It's a very very strong card for combo, and it's also really good vs. Thresh.

What are the 3 Hydroblast used for? Goblins isn't ran that much anymore right? (might be your meta).

[Nightmare]

To be honest, I think Arcane Lab is rather bad. Why not play Chalice in it's place? It's a very very strong card for combo, and it's also really good vs. Thresh.

What are the 3 Hydroblast used for? Goblins isn't ran that much anymore right? (might be your meta).
Hydroblast is excellent against the up-and-comer Goyf Sligh, an otherwise terrible matchup. I'm not sure that just three will make a large difference, but it can't possibly hurt.

[Jander78]

To be honest, I think Arcane Lab is rather bad. Why not play Chalice in it's place? It's a very very strong card for combo, and it's also really good vs. Thresh.
Chalice is a great card. Unfortunately the way the deck is designed, Chalice can cause issues with your own ability to cast spells. Chalice set at 0 is fine, but definately won't stop most combo. Set at 1 hinders your main draw/search spell as well as your early counter power and most Wish/Sideboard options. Set at 2 isn't too bad, but not that great against combo. I'm not going to state Chalice is a worse choice than Lab, because I'm honestly not convinced either is better than the other. If I were to run Chalice, I would probably swap out Brainstorm with Impulse. The early draw/search is key in this deck to ensure that you hit 4 mana without missing land drops.


What are the 3 Hydroblast used for? Goblins isn't ran that much anymore right? (might be your meta).

Hydroblast is excellent against the up-and-comer Goyf Sligh, an otherwise terrible matchup. I'm not sure that just three will make a large difference, but it can't possibly hurt.

[Hoojo]

Curious, why Hydroblast over Blue Elemental Blast? Have you ever needed to target something that wasn't red?

[Jander78]

Curious, why Hydroblast over Blue Elemental Blast? Have you ever needed to target something that wasn't red?
No reason. BEB would be the technically correct choice in this deck.

[TeKo]

BEB would be the technically correct choice in this deck.
Why?
I know Hydro is better in Storm Combo decks, because u can play it on anything, but I don't know in which deck I should play BEB > Hydroblast.

[Jander78]

Why?
I know Hydro is better in Storm Combo decks, because u can play it on anything, but I don't know in which deck I should play BEB > Hydroblast.
Correct. Hydroblast can be Misdirected into a land or something else to make it ineffective. BEB can't be. Essentially Hydroblast is the weaker choice in a control deck and the correct choice in storm combo.

[Kadaj]

The only issue I have with your list, Jander, is that I see literally no way to beat a competant Goblins player. Taking MUC in another direction by adding Cunning Wish and "splash" colors to make EE better is definitely a possibility, but I see no way for your list to beat Goblins at all. Without playing some form of actual midgame defense that isn't vulnerable to a simple Tin-Street Hooligan or Tinkerer I can more or less guarantee that winning game one is going to prove a damn near impossibility. You don't even really gain a whole lot in game 2, although BEB/Hydroblast is certainly a boon, and the Goblins player can gain upwards 8 cards depending on the SB plans.

Was it a metagame call to run this deck even with such a potentially horrid Goblins matchup, or has your testing indicated the matchup is significantly better than it is for traditional MUC builds of this vein?

My other question is how often did you find yourself lacking cards in hand as you moved through the mid-game? In some of my earlier builds I constantly found that even with 4 Fact Or Fiction maindeck I was still lacking cards in hand come turns 6-7, which led to me trying and more or less falling in love with Ancestral Vision. Did Cunning Wish help in that regard, or did it just not come up a lot?

[mnellsae]

Why?
I know Hydro is better in Storm Combo decks, because u can play it on anything, but I don't know in which deck I should play BEB > Hydroblast.

As TeKo said, there are reasons in some decks you would pick Hydroblast over BEB, but there are no reasons you'd purposefully pick BEB over Hydroblast, at least as far as I know.

Who knows, maybe you find some opponent out there running some of the janky Black "Skulking" guys; Hydroblast it.

EDIT:

Correct. Hydroblast can be Misdirected into a land or something else to make it ineffective. BEB can't be. Essentially Hydroblast is the weaker choice in a control deck and the correct choice in storm combo.

Well, there's a good reason :P

[Jander78]

The only issue I have with your list, Jander, is that I see literally no way to beat a competant Goblins player. Taking MUC in another direction by adding Cunning Wish and "splash" colors to make EE better is definitely a possibility, but I see no way for your list to beat Goblins at all. Without playing some form of actual midgame defense that isn't vulnerable to a simple Tin-Street Hooligan or Tinkerer I can more or less guarantee that winning game one is going to prove a damn near impossibility. You don't even really gain a whole lot in game 2, although BEB/Hydroblast is certainly a boon, and the Goblins player can gain upwards 8 cards depending on the SB plans.

Was it a metagame call to run this deck even with such a potentially horrid Goblins matchup, or has your testing indicated the matchup is significantly better than it is for traditional MUC builds of this vein?
You can beat Goblins, but your right that it is a highly unfavorable matchup. I have 8 ways on the play to deal with turn 1 Lackey before it swings, but other than that, it's a struggle.

I think you would be surprised at how much stronger Explosives is in this matchup compared to Powder Keg. It doesn't swing the favor of the matchup, but it does make the percentage a bit better.

It wasn't really a metagaming call when I chose this deck. I honestly tested most matchups, and when I decided on this deck, took Goblins as a statistical loss. Everything else is some what favorable to even, and though I expected a Goblin deck or two at the tournament, I didn't come to face one.



My other question is how often did you find yourself lacking cards in hand as you moved through the mid-game? In some of my earlier builds I constantly found that even with 4 Fact Or Fiction maindeck I was still lacking cards in hand come turns 6-7, which led to me trying and more or less falling in love with Ancestral Vision. Did Cunning Wish help in that regard, or did it just not come up a lot?
Cunning Wish does function as finding the 4th Fact or Fiction easier if needed, but it's main function is finding answers. I honestly didn't have any issues with my hand size. It always seemed right and I didn't show any signs of mana problems due to mana screw or land clumps. The 4 Brainstorms and 3 Fact / 3 Wish works great for me.

As far as Ancestral Vision, I strongly would disagree with this card in a deck like this. Most draw is either cast in response to something (to filter and/or find an answer) or at the end of an opponents turn to ensure your threat will resolve. The fact that Ancestral Vision has a hefty suspend cost is very unappealing in a deck that is very tight on the resources it uses and the timing that they are used.

[Tao]

The better choice to beat Goblins is imo Chill over Blasts. The Goblin matchup is SO ridicoulously negative that a few Blue Blasts won't do anything. So the better choice is to gamble. You just have to hope to be able to deal with their 1-drop Via Force, Shoal or in case of Vial with Repeal or E.Ex and then lock them out of the game with 1,2 Chill plus Propaganda.

Chill also happens to be broken against Stupid Red burn and it is a very solid choice against CRET Belcher (shuts down all red rituals, Burning Wish and makes casting Empty the Warrens for high storm nearfly impossible).

[Kadaj]

You can beat Goblins, but your right that it is a highly unfavorable matchup. I have 8 ways on the play to deal with turn 1 Lackey before it swings, but other than that, it's a struggle.

I think you would be surprised at how much stronger Explosives is in this matchup compared to Powder Keg. It doesn't swing the favor of the matchup, but it does make the percentage a bit better.

While I do readily admit Explosives is a stronger card then Powder Keg against Goblins, and more or less in general, I would honestly be stunned if you could beat a solid Goblins player with your list. You literally have no staying power in the midgame, and stopping Lackey is, while important, not really the key to this matchup. Goblins has a better early, mid, and possibly even lategame then your version of MUC, and thus without extreme luck I can't see that matchup being anything but an auto-loss.


As far as Ancestral Vision, I strongly would disagree with this card in a deck like this. Most draw is either cast in response to something (to filter and/or find an answer) or at the end of an opponents turn to ensure your threat will resolve. The fact that Ancestral Vision has a hefty suspend cost is very unappealing in a deck that is very tight on the resources it uses and the timing that they are used.

In my testing, which has been pretty extensive so far, Ancestral Vision's suspend cost has never once been an issue. The fact that it doesn't cost you any resources to resolve on the turn you get the effect is huge, and it also helps make up for the point that you mentioned about wanting ensure your draw spells resolve. The way my version of MUC plays in Legacy it usually ends up committing mana and cards in hand to establish dominance in the mid to late game, the type of deck that Ancestral Vision is perfect for. Even suspending it on turn 3 or 4 and resolving it on turn 7 or 8 is often good enough because you can delay while you wait for the effect.

I would probably not run Ancestral Vision in a list of your vein, Jander, but I would also not run your list in the first place; Although I do very much like EE in this deck, as it is a superior card to Powder Keg in most respects, especially in Legacy. I found Cunning Wish to be awful whenever I experimented with it for exactly the reasons you described Ancestral Visions as being supposedly unfavorable for this deck. Cunning Wish costs an investment of 3 mana to find an answer that will cost at least 1 more mana, which often turns off your ability to protect your answer from opposing disruption because it sucks up so much mana.

On top of that it also shreds your SB, robbing you of slots that could quite easily prove crucial down the line against certain matchups.

[Jander78]

While I do readily admit Explosives is a stronger card then Powder Keg against Goblins, and more or less in general, I would honestly be stunned if you could beat a solid Goblins player with your list. You literally have no staying power in the midgame, and stopping Lackey is, while important, not really the key to this matchup. Goblins has a better early, mid, and possibly even lategame then your version of MUC, and thus without extreme luck I can't see that matchup being anything but an auto-loss.
I never claimed to be able to beat Goblins. In fact, I said it was a statistical loss. I have no argument here, you're just re-enforcing what I stated.

On the other hand, what results / suggestions would you advise as changing in the main deck to ensure a positive matchup against Goblins? Obviously the sideboard could be tailored around dealing with a heavy Goblins infested environment, if one were to expect that in their environment.


In my testing, which has been pretty extensive so far, Ancestral Vision's suspend cost has never once been an issue. The fact that it doesn't cost you any resources to resolve on the turn you get the effect is huge, and it also helps make up for the point that you mentioned about wanting ensure your draw spells resolve. The way my version of MUC plays in Legacy it usually ends up committing mana and cards in hand to establish dominance in the mid to late game, the type of deck that Ancestral Vision is perfect for. Even suspending it on turn 3 or 4 and resolving it on turn 7 or 8 is often good enough because you can delay while you wait for the effect.

I would probably not run Ancestral Vision in a list of your vein, Jander, but I would also not run your list in the first place; Although I do very much like EE in this deck, as it is a superior card to Powder Keg in most respects, especially in Legacy. I found Cunning Wish to be awful whenever I experimented with it for exactly the reasons you described Ancestral Visions as being supposedly unfavorable for this deck. Cunning Wish costs an investment of 3 mana to find an answer that will cost at least 1 more mana, which often turns off your ability to protect your answer from opposing disruption because it sucks up so much mana.

On top of that it also shreds your SB, robbing you of slots that could quite easily prove crucial down the line against certain matchups.
Ancestral Vision is draw. Comparing it to Cunning Wish seems out of place as the two cards have very different functions. I can see how Ancestral Vision is cast and set off to the side for 3 turns and when it resolves it wouldn't effect the current game state (hence free draw). But, against the very matchup you're concerned about (Goblins), Vision in theory is not a good choice due to the wait on cards when you are constantly under pressure.

Cunning Wish is cast when you need an answer. It's mana investment is usually swinging the game in your favor or it is used in moments of desperation. In both situations it usually will provide a solution. I'm not advocating Wish as a definitive solution or definite inclusion in MUC. In fact I was highly against its inclusion in this type of deck due to most of the points you make above. The color splashes I used in my build made Wish much more powerful as the solutions it found became more extreme and better answers. In a Mono-U deck the available cards just aren't there and Wish just doesn't hold it's weight.

[Kadaj]

I never claimed to be able to beat Goblins. In fact, I said it was a statistical loss. I have no argument here, you're just re-enforcing what I stated.

On the other hand, what results / suggestions would you advise as changing in the main deck to ensure a positive matchup against Goblins? Obviously the sideboard could be tailored around dealing with a heavy Goblins infested environment, if one were to expect that in their environment.

The two changes I ended up making in my current list that pushed the Goblin matchup towards respectability (although still not anywhere near a truly favorable matchup) were adding Propaganda and Ancestral Vision to the maindeck. The two cards combined with what was already available to give the deck a powerful midgame that was strong enough to hold off Goblins while attempting to push both decks into the lategame, where Goblins is more managable (though still not easy by any means).

For your list specifically, I'd find room for Propaganda in there somewhere. Probably for a land, at least one counterspell, and maybe a Cunning Wish or a Back to Basics. I would also look to include both Chrome Mox and Thirst For Knowledge somehow (assuming you're dead set against Ancestral Vision), although that would probably be treading on the toes of what your version is looking to do with Cunning Wish.


Ancestral Vision is draw. Comparing it to Cunning Wish seems out of place as the two cards have very different functions. I can see how Ancestral Vision is cast and set off to the side for 3 turns and when it resolves it wouldn't effect the current game state (hence free draw). But, against the very matchup you're concerned about (Goblins), Vision in theory is not a good choice due to the wait on cards when you are constantly under pressure.

Cunning Wish is cast when you need an answer. It's mana investment is usually swinging the game in your favor or it is used in moments of desperation. In both situations it usually will provide a solution. I'm not advocating Wish as a definitive solution or definite inclusion in MUC. In fact I was highly against its inclusion in this type of deck due to most of the points you make above. The color splashes I used in my build made Wish much more powerful as the solutions it found became more extreme and better answers. In a Mono-U deck the available cards just aren't there and Wish just doesn't hold it's weight.

The primary reason I believe that Ancestral Vision is actually strong against Goblins is because you generally lose to Goblins in the midgame as opposed to the early game. Casting Ancestral Vision on turn 1 or 2 and reaping the rewards on turn 5 or 6 can aid you considerably in holding off the rush that Goblins is very adept at throwing at your face.

I'll concede that in your version, with access to things like StP and Extirpate out of the board, Cunning Wish gains an added dimension that simply isn't there in a purely Mono-Blue version of this deck. Gaining EE is another advantage that's definitely worth looking into, at the very least.

[nightbringer]

After reading the last pages this is the list i came up with.

14 Island
1 swamp
1 plain
3 Flooded strand
3 polluted delta

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Mana Leak
2 disrupting shoal

3 Impulse
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Brainstorm
3 cunning wish
2 ancestral vision

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 engineered explosives
3 Back to Basics

2 Morphling

SB:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of Singularity
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Extirpate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pongify
3 Tormods crypt

I wanted to get the most out of the splash using the explosives and the wishes.
The side is very combo oriented because my meta have lots of combo decks like ichorid en ETW combo.

[Jander78]

The two changes I ended up making in my current list that pushed the Goblin matchup towards respectability (although still not anywhere near a truly favorable matchup) were adding Propaganda and Ancestral Vision to the maindeck. The two cards combined with what was already available to give the deck a powerful midgame that was strong enough to hold off Goblins while attempting to push both decks into the lategame, where Goblins is more managable (though still not easy by any means).

For your list specifically, I'd find room for Propaganda in there somewhere. Probably for a land, at least one counterspell, and maybe a Cunning Wish or a Back to Basics. I would also look to include both Chrome Mox and Thirst For Knowledge somehow (assuming you're dead set against Ancestral Vision), although that would probably be treading on the toes of what your version is looking to do with Cunning Wish.
Propaganda I would run, but preferrably in the Sideboard. I don't find it necessary in my environment to justify it in the maindeck. I do agree it's a great card and a strong tool against aggro decks in general.

I haven't felt the need for the extra draw, hence my skepticism on adding or modifying my version with draw spells.


The primary reason I believe that Ancestral Vision is actually strong against Goblins is because you generally lose to Goblins in the midgame as opposed to the early game. Casting Ancestral Vision on turn 1 or 2 and reaping the rewards on turn 5 or 6 can aid you considerably in holding off the rush that Goblins is very adept at throwing at your face.
Whenever I've played control against Goblins, I've always had the issue of stopping them in the first few turns. That always means my mana is tied up the first couple of turns, so I wouldn't find resources to suspend AV. Usually turn 1 is reserved for Force Spike/Brainstorm (only if nothing is cast) and turn 2 is saved for Counterspell. I use FoF for that mid-game hand refill.


I'll concede that in your version, with access to things like StP and Extirpate out of the board, Cunning Wish gains an added dimension that simply isn't there in a purely Mono-Blue version of this deck. Gaining EE is another advantage that's definitely worth looking into, at the very least.
I think it's worth looking into in any version of MUC and only for EE. Cunning Wish is a call on a whole different level and not really the reason behind the color splash. By just replacing two Islands with 1 Plains and 1 Swamp you can easily just replace Powder Keg with Engineered Explosives and maintain the same stability.


I noticed you suggested Chrome Mox above, this would make sense and invalidate my agrument against AV if you are running this in your version. Can you link a current list of your deck?

[Tao]

TaobotMUC

// Lands
10 [ON] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [8E] Swamp
1 [PT] Plains

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror

// Spells
4 [TSP] Think Twice
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
1 [TE] Intuition

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal

3 [GP] Repeal
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [US] Back to Basics
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [TE] Chill

- Think Twice and AK are a fantastic draw engine. They search for land drops in the early game and produce tons of card advantage later. Think Twice is especially strong in the control mirror because it is virtually uncounterable.

- I play only one Intuition, even though it has synergy with AK and TT and can search for E.Ex and B2B it is often too slow or you have drawn your pieces already. However, one feels right.

- With Brainstorm, AK and TT as early Cyclers you need only 20 lands

- Most of the SB is made to fight against Goblins (Chill plus Propaganda) and Ichorid (Proaganda plus Crypt); Stifles are there to fight Combo and for the Control Mirror where your Explosives are dead; the 4th B2B comes in whenever B2B is broken

[Kadaj]

I noticed you suggested Chrome Mox above, this would make sense and invalidate my agrument against AV if you are running this in your version. Can you link a current list of your deck?

My current list is as follows:

X22 Islands
X3 Chrome Mox

X2 Back To Basics
X2 Vedalken Shackles
X3 Propaganda
X3 Ancestral Vision
X3 Powder Keg
X3 Impulse
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Counterspell
X4 Force Of Will
X4 Rune Snag
X2 Morphling
X1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror

The SB is highly variable, and although I posted one earlier in the thread I have no current set SB.

Chrome Mox gives this deck a lot of extra speed and allows for AV to be cast as early as turn 2 with counter backup, as well as setting up turn 1 Rune Snags, Counterspells, whathaveyou, and playing bombs like Fact or Fiction and Vedalken Shackles a turn earlier can make all of the difference. Mox is also, admittedly, one of the reasons I consider additional card draw to be necessary in my build at least.

Tao, I actually really like your list, and I fully agree that Think Twice and Accumulated Knowledge have the potential to be a very consistent draw engine. However, as I consider Fact or Fiction the lynchpin of this archtype, I'm curious as to why you decided to exclude it. I presume it's because you felt it's either too slow, or simply not as efficient as TT+AK, but I'd like to hear your reasoning anyway.

Again, my only real complaint about your list is that it seems highly vulnerable to Goblins. Even with tools like Repeal and additional pitch magic the matchup still seems pretty unfavorable, at least game 1. Game 2 I can certainly see things improving dramatically, however.

[Tao]

- I excluded FoF because it does not fit into my attempt of a lower mana curve. I think TT is more flexible. It cycles turn 2 for solutions or Mana, you don't have to fight to resolve it against other blue decks and it is a tower in the combat against black Discard.
It is also nice to be able to do things EoT and thus punish your opponent for not playing spells into your waiting Counterspell / Spell Snare .

- I am not trying to tell anything wrong. In Game 1 Goblins just slaughter my list, but that's not unusual unless you tune your mainboard against them. If you expect them in your Meta in a high number, change the deck. if you expect them in a fair number, you could add for example 3 Propaganda to the maindeck, instead of (for example) 1 Snare, the Intuition and one TT.

[Cait_Sith]

Guile: It is awesome, but not for the reasons you think.

It is the first and third abilities that carry this beastie through. It can only be killed by Swords to Plowshares and defends itself against all other removal spells without costing mana. It cannot be needled. It is VERY evasive (gang blocking a 6/6 that will just come back is stupid, but people will do it because they must).

The second ability, the spell stealing, is not nearly as amazing. Guile comes down late, after you have established control, so they rarely have anything worth stealing and won't play their good cards into the ability. It can be used to hijack cantrips, and draw spells, but they almost never play anything good into it, and more rarely do they do it twice.

[Doks]

Think Twice and AK are a fantastic draw engine. They search for land drops in the early game and produce tons of card advantage later. Think Twice is especially strong in the control mirror because it is virtually uncounterable.



I fully agree that Think Twice and Accumulated Knowledge have the potential to be a very consistent draw engine.

If you run only 4-7 artifacts only(Chrome Mox, Shackles, EE or Keg), but now use AK and TT, wouldn't TfK be a choice to try then again?
Even if you have no artifact, discarding a TT and a useless land still creates card advantage.
If it does not create CA, it at least creates a ton of CQ.

[Kadaj]

I am of the belief that card quality is not at all what this deck is looking for. This deck wants raw power, and the ability to just completely outdraw and outcontrol its opponent. Thirst For Knowledge is great at helping that out in certain builds, but in builds that cannot reliably get the best effect out of it should not be running it over Fact or Fiction, or Think Twice, or whatever.

[TeKo]

What do you think about Meditate as Mid/Late Game EOT Draw Spell?

When you have about 8 Lands and your Enchantments in play you can skip one Turn, if you have Mana open to counter or FoW on your Hand.

[Tao]

Hmm, Meditate sounds like "Win more". When I have counterbackup and my opponent is not attacking me, then I don't need the drawspell.

For TfK, I agree with Kadaj. You can only play a certain number of draw spells, and the other options are better. In my list are 9 draw spells, that is enough. If I would add more cards to my list, card 61 would be Shoal#3, card 62 Shackles#3 and card 63 Intuition#2

[Cait_Sith]

Meditate is bad. If you need the cards, you cannot spare the turn. If you don't need the turn, then the cards are not a desperate resource and a much more powerful spell, like Fact or Fiction, should be used.

The situations where Meditate is the best choice are rare enough that it is not worth including in your list.

[TeKo]

What do you think about my list?
I like the Chalice MD, because I play no 1cc spells, so I can play it for 0 or 1.
And Chalice @ 1 is good against most decks (Goblin, Thresh ...)

-Lands (20)
20 Island (imo 20 Islands + 3 Mox are enough)

-Creatures (3)
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror

-Spells (37)
-Counter (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Rune Snag
-Draw (8)
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse
-Board Control (14)
3 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda
3 Powder Keg
3 Chalice of The Void
2 Vedalken Shackles
-Mana (3)
3 Chrome Mox


-Sideboard (15)
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Stifle (Combo)
1 Chalice of the Void (Combo)
3 Hydroblast (Goblin or other red shit)
4 Chill (Goblin or other red shit)
3 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid or other GY decks)

[Arsenal]

Getting back to the "to Brainstorm or not to Brainstorm" debate, why aren't people mentioning that Brainstorm allows you to hide cards? Although Duress, Thoughtseize, and other player-selected discard effects aren't dominating the format, I always thought it was nice to be able to hide/save a key card that I know my opponent would've Durressed/Thoughtseized. Personally, I run 4x Brainstorm because I haven't come across a card that allows me to dig 3 deep and hide 2 key cards at the same time.

[Kadaj]

The reason I don't find the ability to hide cards important is because MUC is a deck built on redundancy. Board control, card draw, and countermagic make up the general frame of this deck, and if one piece is taken from your hand with say a Duress or Thoughtseize, there will always be more on its way. You might even have more in your hand. However, for me at least, it all comes down to whether or not you're willing to risk not being able to shuffle after a Brainstorm and how much you consider that a negative.

The two sides to that coin are very diverse, and are probably a matter of experience, but almost every time I've ever Brainstormed in this deck and not been able to shuffle afterwards I've gone on to lose the game because of the huge tempo and fluidity loss that has almost always accompanied that. As such, I highly dislike Brainstorm in MUC in general, and never include it in my own builds.

TeKo, your list is more or less my list with Ancestral Vision replaced by Chalice of the Void. While I do agree with the majority of your card choices, I think some kind of card draw in addition to Fact or Fiction is very important in some form or another. Thirst For Knowledge might work for you because you have 11 artifacts to discard to it, or perhaps Think Twice if you don't like TfK, but that would be my major qualm with your list.

[TeKo]

I dont know what i can cut for 3 TfK, maybe 1 Impule, 1 FoF, X?

No one-line posts in the LMF. Maybe experiment for yourself and let us know what works for you. - Bardo

[Arsenal]

Kadaj -

While I agree that one of MUC's strongest points is redundancy, and that I will most likely acquire another (insert bomb spell here) in the near future, that does very little to address the fact that my opponent, without me Brainstorming, knows the likely sequence of events for the next 2-3 turns. This is bad. Although Brainstorm does not completely hide what I'm able to do (like you mentioned, I might be holding 2x answers when he Thoughtseizes), it certainly helps in hiding key pieces of information about my response availability.

Also, yes, our deck is redundant and I'll draw into that Force of Will he Duressed soon, that doesn't help the fact that he now knows that he's pretty much free to cast (insert bomb card here) in the next turn (barring me topdecking another Force of Will).

IMO, the ability to hide key cards (and the overall hand structure and response availability) is great. The fact I can dig 3 deep at Instant speed for U is nice, although admittedly, if I draw into junk, that might be a gamebreaker. But if it doesn't draw into junk, then I'm in a good position.

Basically, in my eyes, I'm getting 2 positives (hide cards/info + dig into key pieces with a possible shuffle effect) at the cost of 1 negative (dig into junk cards with no way to shuffle).

I would like to hear how well your testing w/ Ancestral Visions has been working mid-late game, or if you're in a early-mid topdeck/must-find-answer-right-now situation.

[JvV]

Hi guys,

I never posted here, but I've read a lot of the stuff and decided to get my hands dirty as well. I'll post my list and improved list and my point of view on some issues. Even though some of them might already have been discussed or aren't discussed at this time, I'm just throwing it out there for you to get a feel of what I think of the deck. Sounds good?

I top 8ed with MUC a couple of weeks ago in a local tournament (30ish people). I decided to try MUC out a couple of days before that and must say I'm really impressed with it.

First of all, my list (put together after I read the forum)

22 Island
3 Chrome Mox

2 Morphling
1 Meloku

4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

3 Impulse
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

3 Powder Keg
3 Propaganda
2 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Propaganda
1 Back to Basics

Ronde 1: BR Dragonstorm 2-1, 1-0
Ronde 2: Rw Goblins 2-0, 2-0
Ronde 3: Mono G Land-D 2-0, 3-0
Ronde 4: UGR Threshold 1-1, 3-0-1
Ronde 5: UGBW Landstill 0-2, 3-1-1
Ronde 6: UG Threshold 2-0, 4-1-1

Quarter: Mono B Weenie 1-2


What I think about the cards:

The mana:

Currently I play 25 manasources (12 Island, 8 fetch, 1 Plains, 1 Swamp, 3 Mox). I've seen a lot of lists on here that run 20-23 manasources. Isn't that a bit on the low side? Even with 25 I'm sometimes shy for land, and I don't think that is something you want to do with this deck.
I switched to playing fetchland (along with Brainstorm and EE, more on that later), because I wanted to try that out. There are some times you randomly draw a basic Plains at the wrong time, but those are negligable. I am still not sure whether I like it or not.
I am also still not sure about the Moxen. I actually don't like them that much in the deck, because there are a lot of games when they just sit in my hand and do nothing and should be an Island instead. On the other hand, I feel they are an necessary evil sometimes and hand you wins in the form of T2 B2B, T3 Propaganda on the draw against an Affinity/Goblins explosion, where I would've lost if I had to wait an extra turn. I'd like to cut 1, but I don't think running 2 is worth it, so for now they stay at 3, because they win more than they lose atm.

The kill:

Three is about agreed on, right? Most people play 2 Morphling, 1 Meloku. Sadly I don't own 2 Morphling (not that they are THAT expensive), so I decided to try some other creatures before buying that 2nd. I figured I wanted a creature against Deeds and Innocent Bloods, so I tried out Rainbow Efreet and fell in love with it. I really like the fact it can take any hit and live to tell about it. That, and it is really hard to remove it, just like Morphling.
Then some people started questioning Meloku and I figured, what the hey, I'll switch her out as well (for the record, I like Meloku myself). At the moment I'm trying Guile. Guile is virtually unblockable and makes sure (except for STP) that you never run out of winconditions. Guile is expensive though, and cannot block flyers. Maybe the Meloku finds its way back, or maybe I'll go with 2 Morphling, 1 Rainbow Efreet.

The counters:

I'm not going to discuss 4 Force, 4 Counterspell. I play 4 Spell Snare at the moment, for its ability to counter some of the best threats (Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Dark Confidant, Jitte, Hymn to Tourach) in the format turn 2 on the draw AND, unlike Force Spike, later in the game. I haven't tried out that many other counterspells, because I kinda like these. I did try 2 Disrupting Shoal, which were pretty decent, and 1 less Spell Snare, which is probably enough. I think 12-13 counters is about all you need with all the boardcontrol you pack. Rune Snag seems interesting, but like I said, haven't tried it yet. Force Spike seems a bit narrow (narrower that Spell Snare)

The draw:

I think this is one of the most discussed topics here, is it? Brainstorm versus Impulse. I played Impulse at the tournament, but switched to Brainstorm after to try it out. Although I thought I wouldn't, and was telling everybody at the tournament that, 'no, Impulse is better in this deck', I actually kinda like Brainstorm. I do play 8 fetch with it to make sure I have a shuffle effect when I need it (and to have consistent acces to off-colour basics when I want them, but not before). The thing I like most about Brainstorm is something I haven't seen argumented before here; it costs only 1 mana. Not so you can cast it turn 1, but so you can cast it turn 2 with Spell Snare mana up, or T3 with counter mana up. I often had to Counterspell (actual card) something turn 3, while I had Impulse in my hand. I had to make a decision between digging and countering, and we all know that sometimes you don't have a choice. I think Impulse and Brainstorm are somewhat off the same powerlevel in this deck. At least they both fullfill the same purpose. The fact that Brainstorm costs just 1 and Impulse 2, and I think running fetchland without Brainstorm is just stupid, I run Brainstorm for the moment.
Ancestral Vision is insane. So is Fact or Fiction. People don't seem to like Vision that much, thinking it is dead slow and useless in the mid-late game. Sure, it's best on turn 1-2, but this whole deck is designed to spend all its resources to push the other deck in lategame, where MUC usually is best. What more could you want from a card than that you can pay for it when you have a spare mana, lets you spend your hand on making sure you're not dying and refills it a couple of turns later? I think that even mid-lategame it's still really good and that most of the time you can afford waiting a couple of turns.
I tried out AK and Think Twice for a bit (like Tao suggested), but came back from that decision. It just didn't do enough for me. I had some better cardquality, but it never felt like it gave me the edge I so sorely needed. 1 or 2 resolved Visions or FoFs will just win you the game.

The Utility:

I'm a bit undecided about this, because my testing isn't that extensive yet. I kinda liked Powder Keg and didn't feel the need to try out Engineered Explosives. When I tried out Tao's list (AK, TT, EE, Brainstorm, fetch), I found I really liked the fact you can play it for 2 and sac it immediately. Plus, it can destroy enchanments *cough* counterbalance *cough* (which can probably also be annoying when you have to sac it for 3, but that hasn't come up yet). The downside is that you have to run non-Island lands, but I think it's worth it.
Back to Basics is at the moment a 3-off in my list, because it's insanely good against the decks it's good against and in which you need it to win. No discussion there I guess.
Vedalken Shackles is a 3-off as well for now, because I tended to win when I got double Shackles (well, actually even when I got 1), so I upped it. This was also because I cut Propaganda from the main.
Propaganda is really good maindeck, as there are aalmost no decks where it's completely dead. Even against Landstill it makes them tap 4 lands if they want to attack with a Factory and against Belcher/TES ETW tokens look a bit dumb. But, although it isn't a dead card, often it didn't do that much. For example, against Landstill, Back to Basics and Vedalken Shackles also do a good Moat impression against man-lands. Against ETW tokens, Powder Keg or EE would do the same. Against Threshold Back to Basics and Shackles are also better. So I'm trying them out of the board now, for they are only really good against the most aggressive decks. Which, paradoxally (word?), is a bad matchup for MUC....so I'm not entirely sure yet.


The sideboard:

Lets get Chalice out there first. I'm completely in the blue with this card. I like it, but I hate it at the same time. First of all I want to make clear that you don't need Chalice to win against Threshold. Spell Snare is just better. Against Burn there are better cards as well (Chill, Blasts). That leaves combo as the type of deck where Chalice should be good against. I haven't played against combo decks yet with MUC (well, Dragonstorm, where Chalice did win me the last game). Chalice 0 should be very good against a lot of fast combo, so maybe you want that. Chalice 1 doesn't seem that much better (and a turn slower) than Stifle against combo. Not that Stifle is the end-all here, but Stifle could have other uses (against Threshold fetching basics? probably win-more...Landstill with Deeds and fetching basics?...). To make a long story short, I don't know if Chalice will improve my combo match-up that much to warrant a place in my sideboard? For now it's out, because I'm running Brainstorm AND Spell Snare, which is kind of a non-bo.
Chill/Blasts are next in line. I played 6 Blasts, which is a good plan against Lackey and generally good against Goblins. Against Burn it destroys men and counters burn (especially Fireblast, which Chalice doesn't). Chill is better against burn, but worse against Goblins. But with Propaganda, Shackles, Back to Basics (I like B2B against Goblins) and Keg/EE (for the Vial) Chill could be a major problem for Goblins as well.
Stifle, like I said above seems good, but I haven't tested it out.
Echoing Truth/Repeal also seem quite good against aggro, with Echoing Truth being good against ETW and Myr Enforcer as well, while Repeal is better against cheap stuff and Counterbalance.
I think you need the 4th Back to Basics, 4th Keg/EE and a 3rd (maybe 4th if you play 3 main) Shackles in your sideboard, because they are your bombs.


For reference, my current list:

12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox

1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Guile

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Ancestral Vision

3 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles

SB (more of a guideline I guess, I have no clue on this yet..)
4 Propaganda
4 Stifle
4 Chill/Blast
1 Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Back to Basics

So, this is how I came to my current configuration. Most of it is based on limited testing, 1 tournament and speculation. Like I said, I really like the deck and think it has a lot of untapped potential. But, like with The Rock (ext) your metagame is very important and finding 'the perfect list' seems really hard.

Wow, this is getting out of hand.... I'm curious what you all think, and am looking forward to testing this deck more and discussing it.

[Cait_Sith]

Thoughts:

Chrome Mox takes up land slots. 25 mana sources is quite exorbitant; I can get away with 23 thanks to Ancestral Visions (I stick to 24 anyway. No need to take risks, right?)

I hate the EE "tech" and stick to Powder Keg. This deck is ridiculously blue mana hungry with Morphling/Rainbow Efreet, draw spells, and Counterspell. It is slower, but in turn doesn't cause you to rely on fetches, or put pressure on your mana base.

I find that, with the current meta (I mean GLOBAL meta at this point) that the 12 counter setup of 4 CSpell, 4 FoW, and 4 SS is ideal.

Visions is amazing, especially early on, so I would recommend a 4th one at all times. Because of the power of fetches to reduce a SPECIFIC resource, Ancestral Visions has a higher chance of handing you good stuff, making it better than Brainstorm in his deck overall. With, or without, fetches, Ancestral Visions trumps Brainstorm in MUC.

SB:

This is the nightmarish place. You can get a basic idea of "optimal" maindecks, but because of the massive amount of answers blue, and therefore MUC, has to such a variety of situations makes it hard to decide which ones to use. This is pretty much meta dependent, but I can recommend a few generally good ones:

Stifle: Cheap and effective. Great vs Combo, especially if they bait out a Force of Will. As a side note, using this vs Fetch lands is DUMB. You do not have the tempo to take advantage of the Ld, nor do you have more LD to keep the pressure up. Don't do it unless you have to or stand to gain a lot by it.

Chill: This is not great vs Burn, but it is all you really have. However, it is great vs Red-Aggro in general, because you can sweep their creatures away and counter critical burn/creatures.

Forbid: Really adds inevitability vs other Control. You can keep countering their important spells as long as you can keep visions up to fuel Forbid.

Tormod's Crypt: Currently Blue's best grave hate, as many decks now require as much of their graveyard to be taken at once as possible.

[Jak]

Have people tried a mana denial thing? Propaganda, Tabernacle, Stifle, Wasteland, Port, and B2B. Well, maybe not Port with B2B, but it seems alright. Has anyone tried this?

[Arsenal]

Cait Sith -

But Ancestral Visions and Brainstorm fulfill two unique roles in MUC; they don't compete for the same function. Especially with reliable shuffle effects, I do not see how Ancestral Visions > Brainstorm. I don't see why they can't co-exist.

Ancestral Visions is purely a raw draw spell, nothing more. It cannot filter, it cannot hide cards/info, it cannot be played in response, however, it's quite good at what it does (undercosted raw draw), but is narrow in scope.

Brainstorm is not considered a true draw spell (due to card parity), but rather is used to filter your hand in the pivotal early game (if combined with a shuffle effect, then it really shines), to hide cards/info at pivotal moments (hide a gamebreaking bomb from getting Duressed), and to potentially find an answer in response to your opponent's bomb at that particular moment.

If you're suggesting that Ancestral Visions replace Brainstorm, then what do you use, aside from 3-4x Impulse (which has a 2cc btw), to ensure that within the first 3 turns (before Ancestral Visions gets online), you have the appropriate land/answers/response?

[JvV]

@ Cait Sith: Do you play Chrome Mox in your 24 sources? I think I'll try out the 4th Ancestral, instead of the 22nd land. I don't feel comfortable dropping to 23 sources.
I guess Powder Keg/EE is a personal preference, like Brainstorm/Impulse, but for now I like the immediate effect of EE. The strain on the manabase isn't that big in my testing, but sure, there are times the off-colors are a bit sketchy. And that's only when you draw them. I almost never fetch for them unless I have to, or have a lot of blue sources already available.
I never considered Forbid a good sideboard card, but now that you mention it, it sounds really good. Most control decks don't pack this much counters and even as extra counter it should be really good.
Is your most recent list somewhere in the last pages? If not, would you like to post it or PM it to me?

@ Jak: Running Wastes and Ports sounds afwul with B2B. Wasteland and Tabernacle each cost a landdrop and Tabernacle doesn't even produce mana. Like Cait Sith said: MUC is really blue-hungry, so running that many colorless sources shouldn't be that good. I guess it could be good, but you get a whole different deck.

[Lego]

Have people tried a mana denial thing? Propaganda, Tabernacle, Stifle, Wasteland, Port, and B2B. Well, maybe not Port with B2B, but it seems alright. Has anyone tried this?

See Caith_Sith's post above for the reason why this doesn't work. Unless you completely lock them out of the entire game, you can't effectively capitalize on the mana denial plan.


If you're suggesting that Ancestral Visions replace Brainstorm, then what do you use, aside from 3-4x Impulse (which has a 2cc btw), to ensure that within the first 3 turns (before Ancestral Visions gets online), you have the appropriate land/answers/response?

Just throwing it out there: Ponder finds early lands better than Brainstorm. I don't recommend it for the deck though, being Sorcery speed and all.

[Cait_Sith]

I am gonna throw this out there:

My name has no h in it. You should know better Lego.

Now, on topic:

Brainstorm is just not that great in MUC. You need a shuffle effect or the card becomes weak because you don't have any way to push past the cards you put back on top. There is no "really shines" with a shuffle when in comes to Brainstorm in MUC, there is only "actually does something relevant." It cannot filter in MUC without shuffles.

Which brings me to the second point on Brainstorm. Kadaj said this before, but I will reiterate it here: Your deck is incredibly redundant. All you have to do is counter and keg your way to the mid game where you can use Ancestral Visions and Fact or Fiction or resupply/dig.

The only situation where it can truly outshine Ancestral Visions is where you quickly need to dig for a response. However, as the window where this ability of Brainstorm's is actually relevant is rather small (pretty much 2nd and 3rd turns only, and only if they drop a dangerous bomb, like Nimble Mongoose, or try to combo out) it is just not large enough a justification to run Brainstorm at all, let alone have more of it than Ancestral Visions.

On my own build: I run 4 Visions and 4 Fact or Fiction; I run neither Impulse nor Brainstorm. Propaganda is a big force for ensuring I can survive into the late game.

On Chrome Mox:

All 24 of my mana sources are lands. Although having the acceleration is nice, the biggest problem that MUC commonly has to deal with is that the (sometimes vast) majority of its removal can only generate card parity. This is pretty much suicidal for a Control deck, as it means it does not have inevitability. MUC supplements this with powerful draw spells and adding Chrome Mox ultimately taxes them more.

My current list:

// Lands
24 [PT] Island (4)

// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
1 [LRW] Guile

// Spells
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [U] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [TE] Propaganda
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 2 [EX] Forbid

[Arsenal]

Cait Sith -

I do not see how your deck does well against 4c Landstill, nor do I see how you live versus UBW Fish. Please list your strategies. I'm curious as to how you beat 4c Landstill, especially post-board.

EDIT: To expound, 4c Landstill is vulnerable to B2B, YES, but they also pack tons of disruption, maindeck Disenchant, ways around your Keg, don't really care about early-mid game Propaganda, and has the best board-clearer in Magic.

Also, for the UWB Fish matchup... How do you live? They pack even more disruption (spells and creatures), is vulnerable to B2B (but what deck aside from MUC, Goblins, and Solidarity isn't?), they don't really care about early game Propaganda, as their creatures are primarily there for the built-in effects, and pack tons of maindeck hate for you already.

[Kadaj]

Beating 4c Landstill is easy. You drop B2B and win the game. Seriously, it is that simple. Even your creature removal like Keg and Shackles isn't dead because it forces them not to attack. Very few, if any, 4c builds pack Disenchant main, they might have Deed, but that's infinitely easier to deal with than Disenchant is.

UWB Fish is extremely rare at tournaments these days, so it's not exactly the most relevant matchup, but shackles really hurts them, and Propaganda, while not immensely effective, does slow them down enough to establish Shackles, Keg, and B2B. It's not exactly the easiest matchup ever conceived by man, but it's far from the autoloss you've envisioned.

[Jander78]

Visions is amazing, especially early on, so I would recommend a 4th one at all times. Because of the power of fetches to reduce a SPECIFIC resource, Ancestral Visions has a higher chance of handing you good stuff, making it better than Brainstorm in his deck overall. With, or without, fetches, Ancestral Visions trumps Brainstorm in MUC.

As much as I dislike Ancestral Vision in theory, I've been giving it a chance lately. I've noticed Vision can be amazing turns 1-2. Anything after is questionable, due to the suspend cost. It's not hard draw like Fact or Fiction that can be cast and have an immediate effect. I've had a lot of issues needing an answer or a counter with Visions suspended and wishing it was Brainstorm/Impulse. A lot of decks apply too much pressure or fit in a bomb when you require that Counter or draw / search to find the redundant spells to handle such situations. Personally I don't think the pro's outweigh the con's to make this card suitable for this style deck.


Brainstorm is just not that great in MUC. You need a shuffle effect or the card becomes weak because you don't have any way to push past the cards you put back on top. There is no "really shines" with a shuffle when in comes to Brainstorm in MUC, there is only "actually does something relevant." It cannot filter in MUC without shuffles.
I agree with everything in this paragraph but the first line. Brainstorm is great in MUC. It is much weaker (almost unplayable) without shuffling effects, but this isn't a deck that has issues fitting shuffling effects in. Brainstorm would give you the same options that Ancestral Vision would, at instant speed. Brainstorm's draw back can be cumbersome when you stack the top of your library with non-answers, but I don't feel this drawback is enough to discount the card.


Which brings me to the second point on Brainstorm. Kadaj said this before, but I will reiterate it here: Your deck is incredibly redundant. All you have to do is counter and keg your way to the mid game where you can use Ancestral Visions and Fact or Fiction or resupply/dig.
In an environment like today's, even redundant decks have issues finding and maintaining answers. With all the great control / anti-control options available, relying on your deck being redundant isn't always viable. Countering your way to the mid-game is too late half of the time. Thoughtseize + Duress is rampant everywhere. Holding onto the Keg to take care of threat's is not as easy as it used to be. Brainstorm gives you the option of concealing sweapers like Keg or Propaganda to protect them for when they can be cast.



The only situation where it can truly outshine Ancestral Visions is where you quickly need to dig for a response. However, as the window where this ability of Brainstorm's is actually relevant is rather small (pretty much 2nd and 3rd turns only, and only if they drop a dangerous bomb, like Nimble Mongoose, or try to combo out) it is just not large enough a justification to run Brainstorm at all, let alone have more of it than Ancestral Visions.
I think if you are going to compare these two cards you have to do it more subjectively. Against combo, dangerous bombs, or extremely quick aggro combined with disruption, you are going to require an answer quick. Those type of decks will out-resource you early on and you probably will not even get to see turn 4-5 to reap the benefits of Vision, and if you do your answers will be too late. In this format the state of the game is going to be decided in the first 4 turns. I don't follow your reasoning as to why Brainstorm only being relevant in those turns is substantial, I find it the greatest benefit of the card. Brainstorm is an immediate action. You will get to see the next 3 cards, choose the best ones, and use them to handle the state of the game immediately. The most investment of turns it will cost you is 2 from the cards replaced compared to 3 suspended turns.

[Kadaj]

Personally I don't think the pro's outweigh the con's to make this card suitable for this style deck.

I think that's the major distinction that has to be made here. You don't play, nor build, MUC the way I do. My version of MUC invests heavily in speed and early to midgame answers, and often finds itself running out of gas in the late game. That style of play is absolutely perfect for Ancestral Vision, because you can play it early, and then reap the rewards later when it becomes later. I have found, in my extensive testing of the card, that even when I suspend it on turns 4-5 or so, it's still very very effective.

In your version, Jander, you play like a more classic, or traditional variant of MUC, relying on using simple 1 for 1s to maintain board parity and then eventually burying someone with a threat like Meloku or Morphling.

The two versions, or styles, don't play that differently in the end, but the variance between them seems to be the difference between Ancestral Vision being amazing and being mediocre. However, as far as Brainstorm goes, I have found the card consistently underwhelming, and even weak, in every variant of MUC I've ever tested, and that includes both Tao's and Jander's builds, which I have taken some fairly decent looks at in testing. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if my past experiences are clouding my judgment of Brainstorm here, but I also wouldn't be surprised if preconceptions about Brainstorm's effectiveness are influencing other's opinions on the card's place in MUC.

In all of my testing, Brainstorm's best has been nowhere near the upside it provides in other decks, precisely because of the redudancy that this deck builds its foundation on. Impulse serves a far better role, digging for specific cards farther down into the deck and not requiring a shuffle effect to make it not suck.

Ancestral Vision might make you wait 4 turns for its effect, but it doesn't actively cost you turns like Brainstorm does when you don't have a shuffle effect. I don't like playing more than 6 shuffle effects (read: fetchlands) in MUC because the lifeloss does eventually add up against more dedicated aggro matchups, which are perilous enough as it is. Ancestral Vision's effect is also strong enough that it's worth the 4 turn wait, which Brainstorm's effect is not if you Brainstorm into garbage and cause yourself 2 turns of useless topdecks.

[TheRock]

From my testing and in all honesty, the most dangerous thing that Landstill can throw at you is Extirpate. If they don't have it in their sideboard then you are going to beat them pretty badly. You can probably side in Stifle or Crypt against most of those decks just to get rid of the really bad cards like Propaganda.

However, once Extirpate gets involved it isn't so easy anymore. They can begin to attack your card draw (FoF, Visions, TfK, whatever) which is so vital to your success. They can get rid of your B2B plan entirely. Heck, once they Extirpate you, they don't need to actually swing to kill you - you'll have less cards in your deck than your opponent will have.

Unfortunately, MUC doesn't have an answer to Extirpate (unless you're willing to splash for Extirpate). That means that you have to pray that it doesn't show up in your matches. :(

I hope that this makes some sense. :)

[Arsenal]

Beating 4c Landstill is easy. You drop B2B and win the game. Seriously, it is that simple. Even your creature removal like Keg and Shackles isn't dead because it forces them not to attack. Very few, if any, 4c builds pack Disenchant main, they might have Deed, but that's infinitely easier to deal with than Disenchant is.

UWB Fish is extremely rare at tournaments these days, so it's not exactly the most relevant matchup, but shackles really hurts them, and Propaganda, while not immensely effective, does slow them down enough to establish Shackles, Keg, and B2B. It's not exactly the easiest matchup ever conceived by man, but it's far from the autoloss you've envisioned.

Perhaps I have far more Fish-esque and Landstill decks in my meta, but most 4c Landstill decks do run maindeck Disenchant (see Nick Trudeau's slightly dated version he took to Worlds), and in theory, you are correct, drop B2B and win the game. But that's almost as clear as me saying, "I need to gain control of the game, then I win". Duh. Most decks pack TWO maindeck B2B. Most games, you will be burning draw spells to find it, among other things, so just dropping one, unopposed, isn't exactly easy. Landstill packs almost as many counters as us, and has access to off-color pro-active hate as well (Duress, etc).

I think you vastly are underestimating Landstill, especially 4c, with the mentality of "drop B2B, win game".

Re: UWB Fish. In your meta, perhaps Fish is rare. In mine, that definitely not the case. If you are comfortable with your Propaganda's essentially doing nothing against their Mage's and Confidant's, two of their most valued utility creatures that rape us, that's okay. Also, if I'm a Fish player, and I have a field of creatures out, a couple pieces of armor, and I'm looking at your Propaganda and you searching for answers to regain control, I've won. Imo, you need to test against Fish and the 100 variations more.

We are approaching MUC fundamentally different, so any further debate is useless. It's interesting to see a different approach though; your points are well taken.

[Bahamuth]

For Kadaj, Cait Sith and the others who dislike Brainstorm: Let's say I want to play Engineered Explosives instead of Keg. I need fetchland to support that. Woulnd't you still not play Brainstorm even if you have the, let's say, 6 fetchland avaidable in your deck which are in for a different purpose?

[Kadaj]

Unless you're playing 8 fetchlands, then no I would not run Brainstorm.

Anyway, as far as 4c Landstill goes, I have tested the matchup extensively, and by extensively I mean 30+ games, and the matchup basically comes down to the old adage: In control on control, the deck with more blue wins (And if neither deck has blue the deck with most colors wins). 4c Landstill is a good control deck and an exceedingly poor aggro deck in this matchup, considering you have more counters, more draw, and more relevant answers then they do (Swords to Plowshares is effectively dead in this matchup, whereas Keg and Shackles actually do slow down, or completely halt, manland beatdown), which forces them to play the aggro role.

I have never seen a single variant of 4c Landstill in my area (CT and the northeast) with a maindeck disenchant variant of any kind beyond Deed itself, nor have I seen one recently with Duress in the main. Most builds run 8 counters. You run at least 12. They have 4 cards that increase their hand size. You have 7 or 8 (if you run Ancestral Vision). They have AT LEAST 4 dead cards. You have none. None of the above facts bode well for Landstill in this matchup, especially postboard when MUC gains access to more B2B and more counters to make the matchup even more lopsided.

The matchup basically comes down to being able to completely ignore most of Landstill's control cards and having more draw, and sometimes filtering, than they do. B2B is a card that often wins the game, but I've beaten Landstill multiple times in the past without it.

As far as UWB Fish goes, I readily admit I haven't tested it a whole lot, nor am I really all that interested in testing it. No deck in Legacy is going to have perfect matchups against everything, and I'm more than willing to accept a potentially somewhat weak matchup against a deck that's non-existent in my metagame.

[mackaber]

Hey there everyone. In my ever enduring quest to abuse the hell out of Counterbalance Top I am growing less and less happy with treshholds capacites to do the combo justice. My main problem is that I cannot find a setup which will allow me to run both 3 and 4 CC spells and additional counterspells to basically lock up the game completly. Also I feel like the dec does not run enough land to support the combo ideally. Another constraint is the aggro control nature of the dec and the pure control mode one enters when resolving both combo parts.
So looking for a suiteable shell to implement the combo I kept thinking of an MUC build.
I am fully aware that CBtop does not really belong in the lists that people are discussing here since the combo itself basically replaces the plan of 'draw more answers than your opponent has questions'. But much rather I would like to know if anyone here has ever considered the inclusion or actually tested it or what speaks against it in this type of dec?

[Jander78]

I tested CounterTop in MUC for a while.

CounterTop has many issues. One being it requires a minimum of 6 slots from the deck. That is very hard to adjust the deck to accomodate this. MUC is a very tight list and has no room to really adjust for so many dedicated slots. Another completely different build would have to be tampered with to use CounterTop.

CounterTop doesn't really fit the modus operandi of MUC. It's much more suited for aggro-control where you are actually putting pressure on the opponent. I've noticed even with the CounterTop combo in play, I still wasn't realiably able to lock down the opponent, because they are still casting their threats, which I often need "real" answers for that CounterTop can't handle.

CounterTop takes up the first few turns, which are the most important for MUC to stay afloat. Spending early resources getting CounterTop online, can cause you the game without realizing it. Tapping out turn 2-3 to play Counterbalance when you should be saving your mana for Counterspell, Spell Snare, Force Spike, etc.. can be detrimental. Holding onto it for any later in the game is somewhat useless. There is not an ideal time to cast Counterbalance in this deck.

It does have some positives. Against combo decks where they have a very low mana curve, it can be good. Against decks like Enchantress it can do well. It's just not a reliable option to run in this type of deck. If you are going to run a two card combo, it may as well be a win condition instead of trying to lock the opponent down. The positives don't outweigh the clunkiness in my eyes.