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Soulles
04-15-2008, 12:42 PM
Hello all!

I am new to this forum but certainly not new to MTG.

I guess some introduction.

I am a dutch dude, plays Magic since Urza Saga. Since i began playing, White was my favorite color. Esepcially the card Opal Titan. I was 16 or so back then. I think 5 years later i started to play tournamnets. It was then when i discoverd i wanted to play mono blue. Control magic was the coolest thing for me, especially when you see it played in casual games.

From there i kept playing Mono blue. Heck even this extended season i tried mono blue.

I am not really a forum guy if it comes to MTG, but with the upcoming set i have some concerns about this awesome deck. I feel it might collapse.

Before i do that, i wanne say i played 2 tournamnets the last 2 weeks. One of 40 men and one of 57 man last sunday in MOL Belgium. The 40 men tournament i ended up in top 8 but lost first match there vs eva green. The second tournament i ended up in the top 4. Also somewhere in January this year i won a tournament of 70 men with MUC. Got 6 win, 1 draw. We didn't paly top 8.

The decklist i played of the last 2 weeks, if you are curious

15x Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta

2x Morphling
1x Meloku
4x Sower of temptation
3x Kira, great glass sea spinner (or whatever it's called)

3x Fact of Fiction
4x Impulse
2x Powder keg
2x Back to basic
2x Vedalkan Shackles

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Force Spike
2x Cryptic Command

Sideboard
4x tormod's crypt
2x Sun droplet
4x Chalice of the void
1x Back to basic
1x Powder Keg
3x Pithing Needle

I really love MUC but like i said, with the upcoming set i really fear the worst. The card in question is

Vexing Shusher :rg::rg:

Creature - Goblin Shaman Rare
Vexing Shusher can't be countered by spells or abilities.
:rg:: Target spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.
2/2

Not only is this card going to help goblins versus MUC and other blue based counter decks , it will also strengh up ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh decks versus MUC with red splash.

This card can't be answerd with our control utility. Sure we can take it over with shackles, but in order to resolve shackles we need it not to be counterd or destroyed. To Protect shackles we need to counter the threat and the problem appears again, we just won't be able to do that.

I have been brainstorming about what to do about this card, because i know it will be a played main/side board card when it gets out. And sadly i havn't thought of anything yet.

This card is as stupid as tarmogoyf for me or maybe even more. I hope some people do know a solution and would like to share it.

Thanks

Kadaj
04-15-2008, 01:01 PM
My worry about Vexing Shusher is highly limited because in reality by the time it comes online it's really pretty irrelevant. It's not going to see play in Threshold, where it might matter, and it doesn't really matter in Goblins because it's still highly removable in the same way that every other threat in their deck is and the worst thing that could happen is a SCG coming down. But even then, that's really not a big deal against my version because if I'm winning before SCG comes down, chances are I'm still winning afterwards because I have multiple Propagandas down and a B2B choking their mana supply.

Sure Shusher will be a pain in the ass coming out of combo, but chances are you're not beating combo consistently anyway. You can still kill it with Powder Keg or Engineered Explosives, you can still steal it with Shackles, and more imporantly in the matchups it's going to show up you can pretty much ignore it.

Daze
04-17-2008, 07:30 AM
The 1 Daze i put in under the following theory:
Daze is at its best in two situations. One is when your opponent doesnt know that you're playing it, and taps out for an important spell which you counter. Two is when you dont actualy have Daze in hand but your opponent knows you play them, and is forced to leave a mana open for his important spells.
Both of these cases are more likely if you dont have many dazes, but just one. The first time you play it in a match its likely to be unexpected. After that your opponent will play around it, but you wont be wasting deck or hand space by holding what has become a useless card.
I had actuably started with having 1 mana leak also, but have cut it for space reasons.

While I like the idea, I don't think missing a land drop is worth it. You just can't afford it, because you want to drop as many lands as possible, and much more so in the beginning, where Daze would matter.

Another question that occured to me while testing:
What are the Repeals good for? I've had them in my Sideboard for quite a while, but they actually never did anything useful; everytime I boarded them in order to bounce permanents I couldn't counter fast enough (I guess Survival would be the main concern here), they weren't necessary or did not solve the problem.

Kadaj
04-17-2008, 11:38 AM
Repeal is definitely the weakest slot in the SB, but I'm at a loss as to what could replace it in most cases. Whatever it is it would need to be a highly versatile card that can come in against almost anything and at least have a modicum of effectiveness. Perhaps Phyrexian Furnace? I don't know. For now I'm keeping Repeal in not so much because they've been outrageously effective but because there isn't a whole lot else that can come in.

I have on occasion considered boarding either Douse or Hydroblast in addition to the standard 8 pack of BEB and Chill, if not only because you can never have the Goblins matchup too good and they would help against random Red-Aggro crap. Then again, I think if I went to a major tournament right now I'd keep the repeals in, or perhaps swap them out for Cryptic Commands, just to test them out.

Clark Kant
04-19-2008, 07:43 PM
If anything from the current Shadowmoor spoiler has a place in MUC, it might be this little one:


Curse of Chains* http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manawu.gif
Enchantment - Aura

Enchant creature
At the beginning of each upkeep, tap enchanted creature.



As good spot removal as mono-blue as ever had.


So I can answer an early threat with this and save my FoW for a more important late game card :eek:

I'm actually thinking this card could be very solid in the deck.

The problem I've had with this deck against aggro is getting to turn 5-6 with enough life that Shackles or Propaganda can save me.

Sower of Temptation/Control Magic are too slow to deal with fast aggro.

For example, turn four, I need to be able to both answer the threat that snuck thru before and counter a critical spell they try to play.

Or to both answer a threat and have the mana to activate the Shackles I played last turn to steal another one to use as a blocker.

Turn 5, I want to lay down both Propaganda and deal with a threat that snuck thru.

This lets me do that where Sower doesn't.

This card comes down early, and lets me save my counters and FoWs for more critical midgame cards.

I like it.

I lose to Pox regularly because I just don't have enough lands on the table to play anything that can answer their Tombstalker.

The 1UU steal a creature with cc of 2 or less is too narrow to answer threats like Negators and Tombstalkers. This isn't.

So what do you guys recommend I cut for this?

revenge_inc
04-19-2008, 09:48 PM
So what do you guys recommend I cut for this?

The last two pages of this thread are filled with people just saying "Here is my list". Due to the fact that each one varies quite a bit from the previous, I think you should post your most recent list before anyone can really help you decide what to cut.

Clark Kant
04-19-2008, 10:36 PM
Fair enough. Here is my list...

24 Island

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

3 Powder Keg
3 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
4 Vedalken Shackles

1 Morphling
1 Guile

I do see a decent bit of aggro in my meta which is why my build is so tuned against the aggro matchup.

I also play this deck in random multiplayer games where all sorts of crap happens.

So based on that, what do you think I should cut to make room for the playset of Curse of Chains?

Kadaj
04-20-2008, 11:39 AM
-2 Vedalken Shackles
-2 Mana Leak

+4 Curse of Chains

That's assuming you absolutely want a playset of Curse, which may or may not be warranted. I'm of the mind that a total redesigning of the deck structure is going to be necessary to use Curse of Chains effectively, but I could be wrong about that.

Anyway, in your list 4 Vedalken Shackles is way too many as it is, so losing a pair for more effecient creature control isn't going to be particularly harmful, and Mana Leak is awful in general and is easily the weakest card in your list as a whole, hence why I suggest cutting it.

Pinder
04-22-2008, 12:09 PM
Forgive me if this has come up, but I searched the thread and I didn't find it anywhere.

The use of Meloku in the MUC list that recently won Hadley got me thinking, how is Oona as a finisher once Shadowmoor is legal? I mean, it is slightly more expensive, but I think the benefits outweigh that in this case. She's an alternate win condition (milling, which is incidentally immune to Blessing) that makes tons of tokens, doesn't bounce your lands, and incidentally is a 5/5 flying beater all on her own. Also, she can't be Shriekmawed (or, perhaps more relevantly, Ghastly Demised), being half black. The only thing I can see that might be an issue is that the number of tokens you get is dependent on how well you can guess colors, but I don't think that will be an issue all that much.

So what do people think? It seems to me like Oona can beat like Morphling, and control like Meloku, and overall makes one hell of a neat finisher.

Zach Tartell
04-22-2008, 01:54 PM
...being half black

I believe the PC term is "halfrican."

Media314r8
04-22-2008, 02:24 PM
For decks running cunning wish in the main, has Dominate been tested? 5 mana for an instant speed control magic seems decent, (assuming you're burgling a goyf) and you can cast it for (3) :1: :U: :U: if you are afraid of them floating a force with counterbalance. IMO much better than tapping out sorcery speed for a control magic.

Kadaj
04-22-2008, 02:28 PM
I don't like Oona, or Meloku really, because of their vulnerability to targeted removal. The fact that Meloku bounces lands is really pretty irrelevant once you actually play it, but I can see that Oona might be better independantly because it's flat out bigger than Meloku is. I'll probably start testing it just because I really would like to see Oona be good and because I've got nothing better to do at the moment.

Media314r8
04-22-2008, 02:43 PM
I don't like Oona, or Meloku really, because of their vulnerability to targeted removal.

Targeted removal like...

Swords to Plowshares
Vindicate


....

???double lightning bolt???

I think the kind of decks running StP and/or vindicate should be favorable match-ups for MUC anyhow. (save for pikula, which is seeing less and less play)

The thing about Oona I like is that she dodges 90% of removal in the format. (bolt, smother, ghastly demise, threads, fire/ice, shriekmaw)

Clark Kant
04-22-2008, 04:39 PM
Oona is def. solid.

The $4 question is, is it better than Rainbow Efreet, Guile, Teferi, Meloku and all the other options available to us as Morphling alternatives.

I actually think Guile had a lot of potential and deserved testing as a one of too. Rainbow Efreet is just weak. Guile was everybit as good at dodging Extripate and all nonStP removal as Efreet was, but on a great body and with a very useful ability in my opinion (it turned your Spell Snares targeting Goyf/Meddling Mage into 1cc Control Magics).

I don't like Dominate.

If you plan to steal Goyfs/Dreadnoughts, Threads is soo much faster which is actually very relevent as Goyfs and Dreadnoughts get you to a low life total fast.

By the time you can cast Dominate, you can easily get Shackles online and do the same thing.

If you're okay with playing five mana, I actually like Treachery a lot. Steal any creature, for free, that's very good tempo.

spandyrules
04-22-2008, 07:57 PM
Oona shouldn't be considered for Rainbow Efreet's spot, because they play two different roles. Efreet can dodge mass removal, which is good enough to warrant a spot in the deck. Whether Oona should take Meloku's place is a better question, and personally I think she does. If you get Wrathed with Meloku not only does your army disappear but your behind on lands as well. Oona avoids the land problem, and provides an alternate win con against decks like Dredge as well.

raharu
04-22-2008, 08:16 PM
I believe the PC term is "halfrican."
Milato? Tiawaneese?

Daze
04-23-2008, 03:05 AM
Oona replaces Meloku because she
-can block creatures like Exalted Angel and Hierarch
-dodges Shriekmaw (and some other, probably irrelevant removals like double Magme Jet, Char, Threads, Slaughter Pact, Snuff out,...)
-does not bounce your lands (while Meloku worked nicely with Forbid, bouncing lands is still bad for control)
-this means you can probably create more tokens, have a faster clock anyways and an additional win condition in form of milling their library

The disadvantage is of course; if she gets sworded and you have no counter, you need at least 2 more mana to do the same thing Meloku does. Which means, if you need a chump blocker fast, Meloku is better. Still, Oona should be able to block most creatures anyway.

Clark Kant
04-23-2008, 03:45 AM
From what you guys are saying, you seem to be running builds with atleast four slots devoted to win conditions...

2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Meloku (Now replaced with Oona).

As far as I'm concerned, that's over kill.

I'm actually a fan of running just....
2 Morphling

as my only win conditon (not counting stealing opposing creatures with Shackles and beating face with them).

This was because Morphling still seems to be the best win condition for this deck hands down.

But recently, based on your guys recommendations, I switched it up to...
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

So I could see maybe devoting 3 slots to win conditions, but four seems like way too many.

It would help if you guys posted what actual win conditions you run and how many of each, rather than just mentioning one of your win conditions.

spandyrules
04-23-2008, 05:13 AM
From what you guys are saying, you seem to be running builds with atleast four slots devoted to win conditions...

2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Meloku (Now replaced with Oona).

As far as I'm concerned, that's over kill.

I'm actually a fan of running just....
2 Morphling

as my only win conditon (not counting stealing opposing creatures with Shackles and beating face with them).

This was because Morphling still seems to be the best win condition for this deck hands down.

But recently, based on your guys recommendations, I switched it up to...
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

So I could see maybe devoting 3 slots to win conditions, but four seems like way too many.

It would help if you guys posted what actual win conditions you run and how many of each, rather than just mentioning one of your win conditions.

I agree that 4 is too much, but I think 2 is too little. My cons consist of: 1 Oona, 1 Morph, 1 Efreet. Morph is obviously the guy I'm hoping to draw in case it's not Needled or Maged.

Smog
04-23-2008, 05:19 AM
From what you guys are saying, you seem to be running builds with atleast four slots devoted to win conditions...



I actually run 5

2 Morphling
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Meloku (soon to be Oona)

edit: I should add, however, that Sower is one of the first things to be boarded out against something that isn't heavy aggro/beats.

Shadowfax
04-23-2008, 06:36 AM
Flow of Ideas - win the game in 90%
Try it it's realy owesome!

Also i use Isleback Spawn.

Soulles
04-23-2008, 07:48 AM
It seems that everyone fears creature removal in MUC. But it makes me wonder why not one MUC deck runs Kira. I did and i top 8 twice in 2 weeks (one of them was ending up in top 4)

Turn 3 Kira, followed by a turn 4 Sower is Sooo much better than Shackles.

I run 3 Kira and 4 Sowers in my MUC. because of Kira, i run meloku as well. You can say what you want, but the ability is awesome!

But i am thinking of running 4 tarmogoyfs in the next tournament. Only because i recently accuired them with 4 tropicals and 4 Underground seas for very cheap :)

idraleo
04-23-2008, 08:11 AM
i've aquired 4 foil Thoughtseize and some BB Underground Sea, but i'm not gonna splash my MUC because of it...

Smog
04-23-2008, 09:00 AM
But i am thinking of running 4 tarmogoyfs in the next tournament. Only because i recently accuired them with 4 tropicals and 4 Underground seas for very cheap :)

I recently made a joke that goyf was going to become so over-hyped that he'd begin to get play in MUC.....

....

god. damnit.

edit: I do think Kira is worth testing but the problem is it's rare you actually get more than one of your own creatures on the board. Two at the most. And that's coming from someone who plays five creatures in their MUC. The general consensus is three, and were it not for my aggro heavy meta, I'd be at three myself.

Arsenal
04-23-2008, 09:08 AM
I personally run 2 win conditions (1 Morphling + 1 other). Because I run lots of board control permanents, I've rarely ever felt the need to "win-now"; I've been successful with just countering, drawing, laying down lots of permanent board control, then drawing into a win condition.

Soulles
04-23-2008, 09:59 AM
I recently made a joke that goyf was going to become so over-hyped that he'd begin to get play in MUC.....

....

god. damnit.

edit: I do think Kira is worth testing but the problem is it's rare you actually get more than one of your own creatures on the board. Two at the most. And that's coming from someone who plays five creatures in their MUC. The general consensus is three, and were it not for my aggro heavy meta, I'd be at three myself.

Well, then run more creatures that provide MUC justice. Sower of temptation is best example i can think off.

This is a list i posted a page ago. I played it in the last 2 tournaments and i did very well with it.

15x Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta

2x Morphling
1x Meloku
4x Sower of temptation
3x Kira, great glass sea spinner (or whatever it's called)

3x Fact of Fiction
4x Impulse
2x Powder keg
2x Back to basic
2x Vedalkan Shackles

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Force Spike
2x Cryptic Command

Sideboard
4x tormod's crypt
2x Sun droplet
4x Chalice of the void
1x Back to basic
1x Powder Keg
3x Pithing Needle

I'll probably run more kegs now, due vexing shusher. I already fear this card..

RoddyVR
04-23-2008, 10:05 AM
Why do you run the 8 fetches? I dont see anything in your list that makes them better then islands. Seems like you're just opening yourself up to stiffle needlessly and also doing damage to yourself.
Please dont tell me its the deck thinning.

Media314r8
04-23-2008, 10:35 AM
It seems like if you're going to run 8 fetchlands, you probably want to be running brainstorm in place of impulse, however, I'd agree that fetches do not belong in MUC.

Zach Tartell
04-23-2008, 11:02 AM
What about mostly MUC? Jander (the mod, whom I haven't seen around in forever)(IRL or here INL)(that means In Nerdy Life) had some relative success with an 8 fetch build that had one swamp and one plains. It gave him wish targets of Extirpate and Swords (and maybe a disenchant and slaughter pact - it was versatile) and a little flexability with Engineered Explosives.

idraleo
04-23-2008, 11:17 AM
Cryptic Command crushes with the plains+swamp add-on, and Command is fairly better...

Zach Tartell
04-23-2008, 11:22 AM
Cryptic Command crushes with the plains+swamp add-on, and Command is fairly better...

Then run Dismiss and get the same effect.

I think you miss the point - it was for one Plains and one Swamp. Something like:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Swamp
14 Island

Soulles
04-23-2008, 11:27 AM
Why do you run the 8 fetches? I dont see anything in your list that makes them better then islands. Seems like you're just opening yourself up to stiffle needlessly and also doing damage to yourself.
Please dont tell me its the deck thinning.

Ya deck thinning indeed.

I prefer to play a 52 card deck than a 60 one. Don't you? I never got mana screwed in the matches i played so far.

I hardly care about life loss. even if i am at 1, i can win matches. As long as i don't draw useless card for the current situation.

Arsenal
04-23-2008, 11:29 AM
fetches have been MATHEMATICALLY proven to have an almost non-existent effect on the library.

idraleo
04-23-2008, 12:05 PM
Then run Dismiss and get the same effect.

I think you miss the point - it was for one Plains and one Swamp. Something like:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Swamp
14 Island

I think you miss the point: Cryptic Command got 3 blue mana in the cmc, and if you play fetches and doublesplash the better way to use Cryptic is to put it into your album and sell it for 10$. Even if you don't go ever on swamp or plains, more of the times you want to took at least 1 or 2 pieces of splash to ensure you will be able to play EE from 0 to 3; probably you'll go and fetch for islands even if you have 1 splash piece on board and other fetches in hand.

Try to think a scenario where you play simoultaneously EE, double splash, Cryptic and your mu is against pikula: did you fetch on splash leaving few island as the perfect target for vindicate and\or sinkholes or did u go to fetch islands and let EE useless? In each case you got some dead card in hand or you're forced to choose between different ways to deal with the mu.

I'm not saying that CC or EE or fetches sucks by theyrself, but that is not good to play they in the same building.

Kadaj
04-23-2008, 03:30 PM
3 is the correct number of slots that should be devoted to win-conditions. Any more than that and you risk drawing one when you neither need nor want one, and any less than that and you risk not drawing one soon enough to make a difference (or having them neutralized through random crap like Meddling Mage or Pithing Needle, admittedly neither of which are exceptionally likely).

I don't like Cryptic Command period in this deck, no matter what the build, but I can assure you it does not belong in Nearly MUC, or whatever the hell we're calling that now. Frankly, I'm more or less positive it has no place in MUC period, but in the specific example of Nearly MUC it has no place there. The list is tight enough as it is and it doesn't need a utility effect for 4 mana. That's what Cunning Wish and the splash is for in the first place.

On the other hand, that happens to be my reasoning for not liking Cryptic Command in general. It's a 4 mana utility effect. It doesn't win the game, it doesn't provide card-advantage, and it is pretty inefficient for what it does in Legacy. It isn't even particularly good at providing tempo because of its mana cost and it takes up slots that could be devoted to faster, and therefore better, cards.

Burr
04-23-2008, 04:09 PM
What do you guys think of Guile as a win condition/control card? He seems strong when he hits the field but is prone to removal.

Thoughts?

Smog
04-23-2008, 05:58 PM
What do you guys think of Guile as a win condition/control card? He seems strong when he hits the field but is prone to removal.

Thoughts?

see sig.

idraleo
04-23-2008, 07:45 PM
@Kadaj

Cryptic is a 4cc spell that became useful in each game, and at least is a counterspell effect that cantrips by itself. Probably your interpretation of "tempo" is different from mine and you've got a different way of play this deck, but when i first saw Cryptic i read this flavour text: "Hi, i'm a 4cc spell that always avoids counterbalance and always did a 2x1. Sorry but sometimes i let you draw a card". Probably you read "Hi, i'm a 4cc spell: don't play me, its stupid, 4cc means that i'm at least viable onto standard."

I'm sure you haven' t played it enough, moreover because you do a paragon with Cunning Wish; the only thing that those card had in common is the blue mana in theyr casting cost, but they are pretty different starting from the impact that they have first of all in your building strategy. Cryptic is an hard mid-late game counter, that could do a fog effect against goblin or a counter+boomerang vs ********. It doesn't kill your sideboard, meaning that you could play a good 4x package against your worst mu without cutting at least 5 or 6 slots to build up a decent Wish-target board. They start to affect the game on the same turn, 4th, because Cunning wish is ever a 2 turn card. You got to waste a turn to get an utility and another turn to use it, and it probably took you at least 5 mana. And, moreover, Wish sucks at his best in buildings without splash: you don't have acces to a decent creature removal, you always pick up some counter-effect or probably a bounce effect such as Echoing Truth or Wipe Away or Rushing River. Each of those spells did what you probably will be able to did simply playing CC, but cutting your 15 card sideboard poll to a 10 card slot pool.
Another point of consideration is that CW is viable only in Nearly Blue version, but if i want run some deck that did his best with EE and Wish probably i'm gonna play some Landstill variant to avoid mana screw and have access to Crucible, Academy and some maindeck solution other than EE.

Kadaj
04-23-2008, 08:32 PM
And I am sure that YOU have not played with Cryptic Command if you really think it's a good card for this deck. Also, if you had been paying attention to what I wrote, I was comparing Cryptic Command to Cunning Wish only in the Nearly MUC builds, not the normal ones. I don't play CC in normal MUC because it really doesn't do anything. It might counter a spell and draw a card, but we don't play Dismiss because it's simply not fast enough. It might bounce a creature and cantrip, or perhaps fog a Goblin Horde (which if you ever get to that point you're losing anyway, that much I assure you), but even with that versatility it's still a 4cc utility spell.

I HAVE tested CC extensively, probably moreso than anyone else who has ever posted in this thread or maybe even on this site, and I can assure you that it's both too slow and too weak to fit into MUC. The point about it avoiding Counterbalance is useless because if you're losing to Counterbalance then you're playing this deck awfully anyway. All of your important cards cost 3 or more, and just how likely is it that a CB player will be able to constantly have a 3 cc card on top? Slim to none. In fact, many builds of Thresh don't run a single 3 cc card at all. On top of that, you should be crushing Threshold anyway.

What is Cryptic Command good against? What matchups could it possibly help? It sucks against Goblins because it comes online far too late and is only a stop-gap even when it is effective, which isn't nearly enough to win you that match. It sucks against Threshold because while it does dodge Counterbalance it's vulnerable to damn near everything else and you will never get decent value for it because there's maybe one card in the average Thresh build that costs 4 or more mana, and if you let them actually maintain 4 mana you're probably in trouble anyway.

The only thing I ever thought Cryptic Command was good against in testing was other control, and even then it was suspect. It's very hard to keep 4 mana open when you're constantly dropping things like Powder Keg and Vedalken Shackles, or Back to Basics, and by the time you have 4 extra mana to spare you've more or less either won the game or lost the game. Cryptic Command probably won't help you once you get there. It's also a prime target for both Daze and Force Spike, which is as frustrating as it is game-losing.

Soulles
04-24-2008, 04:20 AM
Cryptic command is not just a 4 mana counter with 3 additional aiblities. It's also a nice buffer versus extirpates.

Where does extirpate usually land vs MUC? right counterspells. So what happens if lucky opponent draws 2 pates in a match and vaproize both fow and counterspell? You really think force spike will safe the day? or anything else?

As for the speed of Cryptic. You mention goblins. I can't see how MUC loses to goblins. I won many goblin matches and tournaments. Sometimes i lose hard though.. why? Because turn 1 lacky > turn 2 pildriver+warchief is gg.

But which deck doesn't lose from this combination if it goes unanswerd?

idraleo
04-24-2008, 05:15 AM
And talking about goblin, the card that let you win that mu is ALWAYS Propaganda. You can do a Spike to handle some first turn- second turn play, but going to the midgame you always get busted by each single goblin drop: vial, lakey, piledriver, warchief, matron and moreover ringleader are each a must counter for you. Now, assuming that you will probably handle one or 2 threat of your opponent who's playing goblin, you can't win going on mid-late game without dropping a Propaganda. In that way, a 4cc spell that stops a letal attack and let me draw a card, increasing the probability to find a Prop., is simply a powerhouse.

That's the last building i have tested, where i try to run Vendillion Clique, and they simply impressed me: they are a powerhouse against ******** cause they chumpblock at istant speed Mongoose, and sometimes stoles a Dark Confidant on the other side of the board. Against Landstill they are pretty awsome cause they simply let you know what your opponent had in hand, and moreover after your opponent did a Brainstorm, because many player doesn't think you play something similar and put the best of the 3 card they saw in hand, a fetch on top and a card they don' t want in hand as the second from the top. And at least, they could target you to let you draw a card and put some useles land on bottom library. I've started to test some maindeck chalice of the void because they did pretty well against storm.based, ********, and moreover burn. To play CotV i cut off Spell Snare, that i didn' t find interesting as i tought. It probably did his best in other decks, but against ******** for example i've noticed that i always let they get a goyf on board to simply stole it by Shackles, and Snare was a mere counter to hit only CB.

Here's what i'm playing by now:

// Lands
23 [CS] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [TE] Propaganda
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [LRW] Cryptic Command
2 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void

ParkerLewis
04-24-2008, 05:45 AM
And talking about goblin, the card that let you win that mu is ALWAYS Propaganda. You can do a Spike to handle some first turn- second turn play, but going to the midgame you always get busted by each single goblin drop: vial, lakey, piledriver, warchief, matron and moreover ringleader are each a must counter for you. Now, assuming that you will probably handle one or 2 threat of your opponent who's playing goblin, you can't win going on mid-late game without dropping a Propaganda. In that way, a 4cc spell that stops a letal attack and let me draw a card, increasing the probability to find a Prop., is simply a powerhouse.

Problem is, if you haven't dropped any propaganda, there is no mid-late game against goblins in the first place anyway.

Plus, this reasoning is incroyably flawed. Ok, you're tapping all its creatures, effectively avoiding an attack. But you've also waited a turn's worth of mana to do it. So basically, the net result is that you've just had a cycling effect. Just play Brainstorm, Ponder, or whatever else instead. Seriously, the described play is AWFUL in any way you can look at it.

idraleo
04-24-2008, 07:30 AM
the point of my observation was that CC isn't always useless against goblin, i know that propaganda got to be dropped as fast as we can, but sometimes if you dropped a 1st turn AV, 5th turn you'll find drawing 4 cards, 5 if you are forced to play a CC to have the fog effect. The probability of find what you need is, obv, unfair, but i want to point that CC isn't ever useless against goblin.

Smog
04-24-2008, 08:01 AM
Where does extirpate usually land vs MUC? right counterspells. So what happens if lucky opponent draws 2 pates in a match and vaproize both fow and counterspell? You really think force spike will safe the day? or anything else?


So effectively, your argument for playing cc is that fow and cs are going to get pated and you need something else? Play Spell Snare or Rune Snag, or hell, even Mana Leak, all of which are better choices than CC.

That one counterspell takes an entire turns worth of mana in mid-late game. Mana that would be better spent on board control like keg, ee, shackles, prop, and soon to be curse of chains.

Kadaj
04-24-2008, 02:42 PM
Cryptic command is not just a 4 mana counter with 3 additional aiblities. It's also a nice buffer versus extirpates.

Where does extirpate usually land vs MUC? right counterspells. So what happens if lucky opponent draws 2 pates in a match and vaproize both fow and counterspell? You really think force spike will safe the day? or anything else?

As for the speed of Cryptic. You mention goblins. I can't see how MUC loses to goblins. I won many goblin matches and tournaments. Sometimes i lose hard though.. why? Because turn 1 lacky > turn 2 pildriver+warchief is gg.

But which deck doesn't lose from this combination if it goes unanswerd?

If you can't see how Goblins beats MUC then I don't know what to tell you. In a build taylored specifically to beat Goblins MUC BARELY holds a 50-50 percentage against them. Seriously people, Goblins beats MUC. Get that into your heads. I don't care if I have to pilot Goblins myself against your MUC builds to prove the point to you, but the sooner you accept MUC doesn't have a good matchup against Goblins without significant concessions to them the better off you'll be.

Regarding Extirpate, if you build your entire deck around a supposed "vulnerability" (that doesn't even matter) to a single sideboard card then you'll never win a game, anywhere, as you'll be playing around Declaration of Naught, Obliterate, and Sirocco. Considering the only way to play around the three aformentioned cards is to not play MUC, I'm surprised you're still playing this deck.

Clark Kant
04-24-2008, 08:50 PM
Guys, I wanted to build a blue control deck whose goal is not to control your opponent, but just wants to delay your opponent long enough for you to combo out.

It's not a control deck but it runs a lot of cards this deck runs or ran.

Here is a list..

UW Control

//Combo
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Transmutate Artifact
4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone

//Control
4 Force of Will
4 Powder Keg/Chalice of the Void
3 Back to Basics/Propaganda
2 Veldalken Shackles

//Draw
4 Brainstorm/Ancestral Visions
4 Spell Snare/Impulse/Counterspell

//Mana
24 Land

It runs all the very best cards that make MUC so good. Yet, it doesn't need to lock down the game like MUC does, just slow it down long enough that you can combo off.

Sorry if you think this is offtopic, but the deck does play a lot of similar cards, though it is in no way MUC.

Just wondering if you have any ideas on improving it.

slobad23
04-25-2008, 04:58 AM
though it is in no way MUC.



Well there you have it.

Smog
04-25-2008, 05:17 AM
Yeah, no offense intended clark, but this really isn't the thread to talk about muc combo hybrid decks. Imo, the 'almost-muc' (or whatever we're calling the multicolor splash decks in this thread) discussion is off topic as well...but w/e.

Clark Kant
04-25-2008, 01:33 PM
No offense taken. I realize it's off topic so feel free to ignore it.

I guess I was just looking for feedback on what control elements are the strongest/most neccesary parts of MUC, and what cards are expendible and can be cut from the deck.

Richard
05-04-2008, 05:47 AM
Sideboard troubles...

I think (in European meta) 8 anti-red cards are needed for Burn, Goblins and the new Vexing Slusher.
I use 4 BEB and 4 Chill, should I use 4 BEB and 4 Hydroblast to destroy the Slusher and his can't be countered creatures?
Or is the Slusher not that kinda threat to this deck?

That leaves us with 7 open slots, shouldn't we devote these slots to replace the creature-hate in the mainboard (4 Propaganda and 3 Vedalken Shackles) against non-creature decks?
What should we use? Perhaps 3 Arcane Laboratory / 3 Energy Flux + 4 ???
I tested Repeal and I feel Stifle is the better all-rounder...

Hoping to hear your thoughts,
Richard

Edit: I play Kadais list with
-1 island, +1 shackles
-2 foil, +2 spell snare

Edit: One more thing, will Augury Adept see any play in muc?

Smog
05-04-2008, 06:56 PM
will Augury Adept see any play in muc?

no

Kadaj
05-04-2008, 08:45 PM
Augury Adept might see play somewhere in some build of MUC, and I will probably fiddle with it more out of amusment than anything else, but I doubt it will be good, as Smog so aptly put it.

I have at times flirted with devoting 11 cards to anti-red (7 BEBs, 4 Chills). As far as the other slots, I've experimented on Cryptic Command as a good SB all rounder. It can come in against Control and Mid-Range crap when you don't want certain things you've got MB. On the other hand, it's still cumbersome as hell and I don't really like it's "jack of all trades, master of none" thing.

On the other hand, the reason I think 11 anti-red might be warranted has nothing to do with Shusher, which is a stupid Red-Herring anyway. We don't run enough counterspells to be unduly bothered by Shusher (at least in my builds), and he can still be removed by Powder Keg or comandeered with Shackles. In builds with a heavier counterspell count Shusher might warrant further worry, but I don't have that problem in my builds.

Kainan
05-08-2008, 10:30 AM
Hi guys,

I am a new guy joining the discussion. Hope you don't mind :)

So... I always liked MUC, since I started playing it in OLD Extended (when FoW was still Extended legal) and now I am trying to run it in Legacy. My metagame has UGb Thresh, Aggro Loam, Enchantress and Ichorid. As you may see, it's mainly aggro.

However, I think that this deck can perform ok in an aggro metagame. Here is my list and I hope that you can help me out :)


1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Fact or Fiction
1 Forbid
4 Brainstorm
1 Capsize
3 Back to Basics
4 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

3 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
16 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Any tips? Thanks!

Arsenal
05-08-2008, 10:46 AM
No Propaganda maindecked in an aggro meta = many, many losses. I would personally go for a 12 counter/12 board control/10 card draw/2 win con. split. MD bounce typically isn't needed if you have sufficient board control permanents.

Keep your manabase

4 FoW
4 CounterSpell
4 Spell Snare

3 B2B
3 Propaganda
3 Engineered Explosives (or Powder Keg if you're playing 24 Islands)
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Brainstorm or Ancestral Vision
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Impulse

1 Morphling
1 Meloku/Oona/Rainbow Efreet/whatever.

No_Life_No_Future
05-08-2008, 11:19 AM
Hey guys! I found this in a different thread but ah well its worth a shot.
How about we replace our kill conditions with Izzet Guildmage and play 4 maindeck cunning wish.

Izzet is good with ancestral visions. (have to splash r)

but most importantly it can instantly win the game with reset. All you need is 6 mana and you can go infinite. Then copy a draw spell untill you simply draw your deck and play another wish for the win.

total slots:
8
+might want to add some more cantrips or remand as a counter.

But keep in mind this gets around alot of removal and all of the pieces are useful outside of the combo.

Clark Kant
05-08-2008, 02:43 PM
Is 14 board control cards too many?

I've personally been having success with this build in an aggro heavy meta...


4 FoW
4 CounterSpell
4 Spell Snare

3 Powder Keg
3 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
4 Vedalken Shackles

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

2 Morphling

24 Island

Extripate is no where near as common as you guys make it out to be and even when it is, getting Morphing into the yard is damn near impossible. I usually beat my opponents by stealing their own creatures with Shackles anyways so I have honestly never ever lost a game because I ran out of win conditions.

Honestly, there is no reason to run a creature inferior to Morphling (which every alternative creature is) just because you fear Extripate.

My main concern is if I should be playing more counterspells. Mana Leak is no near as bad a card as you guys make it out to be.

Kadaj
05-08-2008, 02:48 PM
Pernicious Deed is the entire reason why I do not run a full set of Morphlings as my kill condition, otherwise I would. In a build like mine, which lacks counter power, it is very easy to find myself with no way to win against a Landstill player who has landed one Deed too many, hence the inclusion of the completely unkillable Rainbow Efreet. If you don't expect a lot of Deeds then by all means run nothing but Morphlings as your kill condition.

I'm going to pretend Izzet Guildmage wasn't suggested, because I'd like to think the reason why adding two cards that suck (and take up a full 5 more slots than just running a normal kill condition) would be obvious.

Anyway, in an aggro heavy meta run the full set of Propagandas and Powder Kegs/Engineered Explosives. Shackles does not need to be a 4 of, but at least two is an absolute necessity, and at least 3 Back to Basics are needed as well. Beyond that, Forbid, Misdirection, and Capsize all suck, so those should be replaced by something that doesn't, in fact, suck. What that actually ends up being is totally up to you, but it could be anything from the Propagandas your list so desperately needs to further draw spells.

Nihil Credo
05-08-2008, 02:54 PM
Throwing that one out again: does Curse of Chain tempt MUC players? It's as good spot removal as MUC has ever seen.

Clark Kant
05-08-2008, 04:44 PM
I will try it and let you know when my playset arrives tom. But I'm not impressed. For the same two casting cost, you are just one mana away from playing Shackles which is far superior. The same two casting cost is enough for Keg which is usually better against aggro as well.

If there is a creature you wanted to stop early so desperately, you're better off just countering it.


Anyway, in an aggro heavy meta run the full set of Propagandas and Powder Kegs/Engineered Explosives. Shackles does not need to be a 4 of.

I agree with absolutely every thing else in your post except for the above statement.

Honestly... in an aggro heavy meta... why NOT run 4 Shackles?

It is far and away without question the most broken card in the deck, more so than Fact or Fiction even if you're talking about aggro.

It lands turn three and usually manages to steal their biggest creature turn 4 to use as a blocker. Then you block with it, get it killed and steal another one.

Against aggro, if you don't see a propaganda asap, Shackles is the difference between winning and losing. Keg is too slow in my opinion. It comes out turn two, but this means you didn't get to counter anything that turn. And you don't get to blow up cards like Sea Drakes, Negators etc till turn five which is too late.

So I would prefer to run 4 Shackles and 3 Keg than vice versa. Shackles in never dead in multiples against aggro either. And it's actually neccesary if they play Krosan Grip type effects.

Even propaganda is just a temporary stop gap. It stops an early creature cold but is near useless by the late game. Shackles is a permanent solution.

Kadaj
05-08-2008, 05:04 PM
I agree with absolutely every thing else in your post except for the above statement.

Honestly... in an aggro heavy meta... why NOT run 4 Shackles?

Because they're slow, far worse in multiples than you let on, and can be easily dug for when you need one. Drawing one early game is like a mulligan at times, and it cannot be relied on as the first line of defense against aggro due to its cumbersome nature. That is why 4 are not necessary, no matter how aggro dense your metagame is.

So, in short, the reason why Shackles is not necessary as a four of is because you do not want one on turn 3, or even 4, most of the time. In fact, I usually don't even want them on turn 5, although it can be necessary at times. They are an exceptional late game tool, but as a late game option you do not need four of them to make them effective.


Throwing that one out again: does Curse of Chain tempt MUC players? It's as good spot removal as MUC has ever seen.

It does, and I am experimenting with it, but it will probably require a totally new deck to accomodate it, as I said earlier. I'll post my findings later when I finish screwing around with it.

Shadowfax
05-08-2008, 05:49 PM
Why nobody plays Flow of Ideas?
It's a great card in this deck. I use it instead if fact or fiction couse on the turn 4 i dont have much stress and many threats so on turn 6 i draw 6 cards and win the game. Or if later then draw 10-14 cards often.

Sanguine Voyeur
05-08-2008, 05:50 PM
It's a six costing sorcery that doesn't flat out win you the game.

Clark Kant
05-08-2008, 05:53 PM
Kadaj,

How is drawing Shackles against aggro a mulligan at times? I would happily keep a decent opening hand with even two Shackles in a heartbeat.

It's a five casting cost Control Magic whose cost can be paid over two turns. But the massive advantage is, it completely reusable.

I win more games beating down my opponents with their best creature thanks to Shackles than I do beating them down with Morphling.

I am curious to hear other people's experiences with Shackles in aggro metas.

Sanguine, Re: Flow of Ideas

Actually, it does flat out win you the game if it resolves. It actually doesn't sound bad.

If it was an instant, I would run it in a heartbeat.

Even as a sorcery, it probably warrants experimentation.

I can't justify running more than two due to the high casting cost.

So I will probably try out a 2/2 split with Fact or Fiction.

Shadowfax
05-08-2008, 06:04 PM
I think that there is much more important question then draw engine in this deck. I used to play with different kinds of threshold decks and the main problem is mangoose!!! and sometimes mystic enforcer. So only powder keg helps against mongoose but they have many answers on it - needle, grip, stifle,counters... Big creatures like enforcer can be stoped by sideboard curse of chain but what to do with mongoose?

Baumeister
05-08-2008, 07:46 PM
Sanguine, Re: Flow of Ideas

Actually, it does flat out win you the game if it resolves. It actually doesn't sound bad.

If it was an instant, I would run it in a heartbeat.

Even as a sorcery, it probably warrants experimentation.

I can't justify running more than two due to the high casting cost.

So I will probably try out a 2/2 split with Fact or Fiction.

Good to hear somebody else is thinking along the same lines. Most decks can't compete with massive card advantage. But don't run Flow of Ideas. Anything not instant is bad. I've been using Opportunity. It costs the same, is an instant, and draws you enough cards to make it worth it. Here's my draw configuration right now:

4x Fact or Fiction
4x Ancestral Vision
2x Opportunity

Every card nets me staggering card advantage and draws me into permission, board control, and win conditions.

Kadaj
05-08-2008, 08:30 PM
Kadaj,

How is drawing Shackles against aggro a mulligan at times? I would happily keep a decent opening hand with even two Shackles in a heartbeat.

It's a five casting cost Control Magic whose cost can be paid over two turns. But the massive advantage is, it completely reusable.

I win more games beating down my opponents with their best creature thanks to Shackles than I do beating them down with Morphling.

I am curious to hear other people's experiences with Shackles in aggro metas.

Shackles is a mulligan at times because it's slow as fuck. You cannot rely on it as your first line of aggro deterant because it doesn't do anything until turn 4, and that requires you tapping out on turn 3. I don't really know how you've managed to win by beating people down with their own creatures, which is something I think I've managed to pull off once or twice in something approaching 1000 games of testing and actual tournament play.

Usually the board developes into this huge stall with my opponent having 2 or 3 creatures out but being unable to attack due to Propaganda and B2B locking down their mana, and then I finish them off one with one of the various fliers.

Seriously, I don't know about you, but paying 3 mana to do nothing on turn 3 doesn't sound like a good plan against goblins to me. Especially since it will usually end up being turn 4 because of Port anyway, which makes it even shittier.

Don't get me wrong, I think Shackles is an amazing tool, it's just not worth 4 slots when it's so terrible early game. Yes, it's extremely potent in the mid to late game, but you don't need 4 slots for a mid to late game tool.


Sanguine, Re: Flow of Ideas

Actually, it does flat out win you the game if it resolves. It actually doesn't sound bad.

If it was an instant, I would run it in a heartbeat.

Even as a sorcery, it probably warrants experimentation.

I can't justify running more than two due to the high casting cost.

So I will probably try out a 2/2 split with Fact or Fiction.

Ok. This is where I'm putting my foot down. There are some ideas that have merit, and some ideas that just suck, and Flow of Ideas is one of them. I would not invest 6 mana into a draw spell for ANYTHING. Period. I don't care what it is, it's not worth it. End of discussion. The fact that it's a sorcery makes it even worse. Hell, the card didn't even see play when it was legal in standard and there were plenty of blue control decks that were viable then. Why? Because it's a 6 mana sorcery that doesn't win you the game, contrary to what you might think. It might draw 6 cards, but that basically just means you have a full hand again, while your opponent gets a free turn to rape you because you tapped out.

Opportunity has the same issue. It costs 6 mana. Seriously people, 6 mana = very, very bad. With the exception of something like Yawgmoth's Bargain or Mind's Desire, neither of which are legal in Legacy, 6 mana cards aren't good in Eternal formats, and this is no exception. I have no idea why you want further card draw anyway, but I'd rather run Think Twice, which is terrible, or even Thirst for Knowledge, which is worse, over Flow of Ideas or Opportunity.

Clark Kant
05-08-2008, 08:49 PM
Seriously people, 6 mana = very, very bad. With the exception of something like Yawgmoth's Bargain or Mind's Desire, neither of which are legal in Legacy, 6 mana cards aren't good in Eternal formats, and this is no exception.

Well there goes my plan on unleashing my uber tech of Guile in a more counter heavy build onto the world. :tongue:

Seriously though, I can think of plenty of six mana cards that are justifiable.

Even excluding the cards that cost you more than 6 mana in two turns to get into play, Akroma Fury, Exalted Angel etc...

Fairie Stompy can justify Shoreline Ranger. Yes occasionally he's used to get a land or pitch to Force, but he's mainly there to serve as an additional beater in a pinch.

Dragon Stompy can justify Razormane Masticore.

Train Wreck can justify Helldozer.



Even Guile I think is solid in more counter heavy versions of this deck.

Sanguine Voyeur
05-08-2008, 08:55 PM
Even excluding the cards that cost you more than 6 mana in two turns to get into play, Akroma Fury, Exalted Angel etc...Costing six over several turns isn't the same as costing six.
Fairie Stompy can justify Shoreline Ranger. Yes occasionally he's used to get a land or pitch to Force, but he's mainly there to serve as an additional beater in a pinch.Blue Stompy typically doesn't run Shoreline Ranger, and if it does, it's not for playing. "In a pinch" doesn't mean relied on.
Dragon Stompy can justify Razormane Masticore.Dragon Stompy doesn't run Razormane Masitcore any more and it cost five.
Train Wreck can justify Helldozer.Train Wreck runs Cabal Coffers. It's mana works differently.

Seregrauko
05-08-2008, 09:16 PM
Hi Guys!

I've played around with an initial MUC build (never played the deck before).

I ended up with something like this:


Lands:
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
17 Island
1 Plains
-24

Critters:
1 Oona, Queen of Fae
1 Morphling
1 Guile
-3

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Propaganda
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Back to Basics
2 Cryptic Command
-33

SB:
4 Chill
??

I like the fetchable Plains.. This way I can (obviously) blow EE @ 2. I don't like to add the Swamp since I'd like the U-mana instead and I think I'll rarely blow EE @ 3 (since I play Shackles, B2B and Propaganda).
Fetches are also for Brainstorm..

I'd like to try out Ancestral Vision, but It's lame to get both that and Spell Snare in your opening hand (especially if you're on the draw..).

I'm not sure about CC, but I'd like to try them as 2-of. They look awesome for the mid-late game.

I'm concerned whether or not FoF is to little actual draw. Should I find something else for the Spell Snare-slot, and then replace Brainstorm with Visions?

Hope to get a comment on the list. It seems like this deck has alot of uncertain slots (atleast more than other T1.5 decks..).

Kadaj
05-08-2008, 09:31 PM
Nobody plays Exalted Angel without a way to speed it up significantly (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and Chrome Mox) and no one runs Akroma Angel of Fury or Razormane Masticore at all.

At any rate, as I've said many times, Cryptic Command is awful in the Maindeck, and it's equally awful in the SB as my experimentation has proved recently. It's slow, not particularly good at anything, and highly vulnerable to all sorts of stupid disruption that you'd usually be able to avoid.

I think you need to stop worrying about having Spell Snare and Ancestral Vision in your opening hand. Ancestral Vision is not bad at all if you can't suspend it on turn 1, and more often than not I just suspend it on turn 1 in that situation anyway. Unless I know my opponent has the potential to drop something stupid like Dark Confidant, in which case I'd sit back on Spell Snare.

I still maintain that using Fetchlands to make Brainstorm not suck is a bad idea, because running Brainstorm makes it very hard to find room for more actual draw spells, on top of the fact that I haven't changed my position on Brainstorm not being that good in MUC anyway, which is evidenced by the fact that I have yet to see a decklist in this thread that contained both Brainstorm and 6+ actual draw spells. I'm sure it is doable, but it's such a pain in the ass to find room for everything, on top of all of the vulnerabilities of having fetchlands in the first place and the fact that I think Powder Keg is better than EE anyway, and fetchlands become an unnecessary risk.

Kainan
05-09-2008, 02:51 AM
the fact that I think Powder Keg is better than EE anyway, and fetchlands become an unnecessary risk.

Topdecking Powder Keg sucks, while topdecking EE doesn't. Also, EE can destroy enchantments too, in case it's needed.

Kadaj
05-09-2008, 02:49 PM
Topdecking Powder Keg sucks, while topdecking EE doesn't. Also, EE can destroy enchantments too, in case it's needed.

However, Powder Keg can destroy man-lands, which is about 100 times more important than destroying enchantments. Topdecking Powder Keg only sucks when you desperately need an answer now and you have no way to draw further cards, which is extremely rare in my list. EE is terrible against Landstill, a very important and still competitive matchup despite what people would have you believe, whereas Powder Keg is quite solid, and I'll gladly take that advantage over the ability to destroy enchantments and slightly better topdeck potential.

Shawn
05-09-2008, 04:07 PM
Also, as it's been stated before, running two non-islands and fetchlands is a huge disadvantage of EE. One of MUC's strength's is that cards such as creature removal and land hate in the form of Price of Progress, Stifle, Wastleland, and Blood Moon are blanks against this deck. I realize that Stifle still stops Powder Keg and Ancestral Vision, but I'd rather have them Stifle those then have a 1 mana Sinkhole. Making consistent land drops is key to the decks success, and missing even one in the early game may be lethal. Also, most of the enchantments that are strong against this deck can be answered by Needle post-board. (Survival, Assault, Needle on Top stops Counterbalance) Pretty much everything besides Choke is answerable, but the decks that play that card are very good against this deck anyway, mainly the Bg suicide decks.

I played at a small tournament two weeks ago with 3 Explosives and 1 Keg, since I didn't have access to more Kegs. I lost 1 game where I drew both my Swamp and Plains consecutively. Granted, I won that matchup 2-1 after board, but losing a game due to this isn't worth the advantages that EE brings. As a side-note I played affinity that round, and Powder Keg obviously would've been much better than EE in that matchup.

Jander78
05-09-2008, 04:44 PM
Before further convoluting the thread with EE vs. Powder Keg discussion, please read the previous discussion that occured 20 pages prior. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4463&page=24) -Jander

someone_unimportant
05-11-2008, 07:00 PM
I realize that Stifle still stops Powder Keg and Ancestral Vision, but I'd rather have them Stifle those then have a 1 mana Sinkhole.

It is actually quite easy to play around Stifle with fetchlands. Skilled players will never let their lands get stifled against Thresh or Landstill without receiving at least a free sphere of resistance. Your opponent has to keep up U at ALL TIMES, including end of turn, to stifle a fetchland. This won't happen, because your opponent will have to play cantrips or threatening spells early, or else be overwhelmed by late-game advantage. Just play intelligently and there won't be any problems.

Smog
05-13-2008, 01:59 PM
Throwing that one out again: does Curse of Chain tempt MUC players? It's as good spot removal as MUC has ever seen.

I'm running 3 atm. They aren't amazing, but they've won their spot in the deck for the moment.

Misplayer
05-14-2008, 09:21 AM
What does everyone play for a land count? I run 24 (all islands naturally) and I find myself losing games to mana flood a couple times per tournament. While hitting land drops is super important, you can more-often-than-not buy yourself some turns with your control pieces once you hit 3 lands. So is 23 too few lands?

Also, I’ve been very unimpressed with Chill in the SB. Even when it comes down turn 2 all it does is slow down a burn/sligh deck a little but they’re still lobbing threats at you every turn and if they landed a creature turn 1 forget about it. What do people think of Douse in it’s place? Or maybe just more BEB/Hydroblast?

ParkerLewis
05-14-2008, 12:49 PM
What does everyone play for a land count? I run 24 (all islands naturally) and I find myself losing games to mana flood a couple times per tournament. While hitting land drops is super important, you can more-often-than-not buy yourself some turns with your control pieces once you hit 3 lands. So is 23 too few lands?

Also, I’ve been very unimpressed with Chill in the SB. Even when it comes down turn 2 all it does is slow down a burn/sligh deck a little but they’re still lobbing threats at you every turn and if they landed a creature turn 1 forget about it. What do people think of Douse in it’s place? Or maybe just more BEB/Hydroblast?

I used to run 25 Islands, and got mana-flooded way too much. I've cut one since, and I've been pretty happy with 24 for now. Sure, still getting too many lands happens sometimes, but i've found it much more acceptable than the occasional auto-scoop you're facing if you're not able to make your first 3 or even 4 lands drops flawlessly.

In any case, you're always free to test 23 islands and see for yourself if it ends up being too few or not.

Chill is a very nice card. It's a very good tempo card against aggro decks, giving you time to stabilize. Even if they already have a threat out, this usually means it'll be alone for a couple turns more, giving you time to find a shackle or another answer (propaganda, ...).

Douse doesn't seem that great. You don't have mana to counter every spell they want to play. You have enough mana to use the counterspells you already have. It seems far better to force them to play only one or maybe two every turn (with Chill) and being able to counter them than letting them play all their hand and still be countering only one or two. But once again, feel free to test if you're not convinced.

Smog
05-14-2008, 01:31 PM
I play 22 quite comfortably.

ParkerLewis
05-14-2008, 01:36 PM
I play 22 quite comfortably.

Actually, there's the need to specify the kind of lists you're running. If you're running a cantrip-based list (ie with Brainstorm and fetches), 22 might be ok, otherwise... well i can't believe it can work in the non cantrip-based build (ie no fetches no brainstorm).

Smog
05-14-2008, 02:18 PM
Believe whatever you want, it makes no difference to me.

2x Fact or Fiction
4x Ancestral Vision

Misplayer
05-14-2008, 03:12 PM
Smog, what else do you play to generate card advantage? If nothing, what are you putting in those 2+ slots?

ParkerLewis
05-14-2008, 03:14 PM
Believe whatever you want, it makes no difference to me.

2x Fact or Fiction
4x Ancestral Vision

22 lands is what an aggro deck could run. Once again, cantrips or digging effects (a la Brainstorm/Ponder/impulse) can help lowering this number a lot (see : Threshold), but if you're not running any, then you've made some very unorthodox (i'm not necessarily implying bad) card choices in the main somewhere to adjust for such a low land count.

Smog
05-15-2008, 02:36 AM
I'll just post my list. No offense to anyone, but I'm not posting for input or opinions, only to give the people asking about my build the entire view. I do not disagree with playing more lands, though I myself would only ever run one more (though I do not even plan on doing that) and would probably cut a keg or chains to do so.

=======================

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
22 [ARE] Island (8)

// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
1 [SHM] Oona, Queen of the Fae

// Spells
4 [7E] Force Spike
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [MM] Counterspell
3 [TE] Propaganda
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [SHM] Curse of Chains
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Trickbind

ParkerLewis
05-15-2008, 01:20 PM
// Lands
22 [ARE] Island (8)

// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
1 [SHM] Oona, Queen of the Fae

// Spells
4 [7E] Force Spike
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [MM] Counterspell
3 [TE] Propaganda
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [SHM] Curse of Chains
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Trickbind

I wonder if you've succumbed to the Danger of Cool Things, and wanted to forcefully fit too many "cool" cards into the list.

For example, Oona is inferior to either morphling or Rainbow Efreet. The point of Morphling & RE is being basically unkillable barring some split second / untargeted removal. I don't see any advantage to Oona : you can't realistically hope summoning her and protecting her without 8 mana available (6 for Oona + 2 for CSpell, it's not like Spike is going to counter anything at that stage of the game), plus it's going to cost additional cards to do so (the Counterspells you'll use on her). This is typically a "cool" card that has no place here. Same thing for Sower of Temptation. It's bad, because it's not worth the investment (Shackles are considered fine because you can change target any time you want).

You also have 8 ways to deal with individual creatures (sower, curse, shackles). That seems like far too much. If you're facing lots of creatures, then the fourth Propaganda should do much more for you. If you're more concerned about a few big finishers... well, you don't need 8 ways to deal with them. You already have counters (that's what they are for). Since the Shackles are clearly the best of the bunch (allowing you to change the creature you'll control according to board changes), you could free at least 3 of the other slots, and probably simply the 5 of them.

Finally, you're lacking lategame :
-the drawing suite is very light : Ancestral Vision is more of a beginning/mid-game card, after that, it's usually too slow to take effect, so you only have 2 Fact or Fiction for that.
-force spike ?
-needs moar lands.

As I suspected, your land count doesn't match that of a traditional control deck, and for a reason : as it is, the list is more of a mid-range one. It's like you're trying to force the archetype into a role it is not built to play. I'm doubtful this list could count as MUC (no offense meant here, it's just a statement).

I also have some interrogations about the SB (2x Chalice ?? you want either 0 or 4), but that's less important.

Smog
05-15-2008, 02:14 PM
That isn't my SB, I change my SB on a weekly basis and don't bother changing it in MWS.

Though I appreciate your effort to fix my deck, I've played MUC as my primary deck for what has been basically my entire mtg career. Though I do not deny I make unorthodox choices, my playtesting of literally thousands of different combinations in my current meta-game has led me to my current list. I have yet to come across a single deck that consistently gives me trouble pre or post board.

Landstill and tendrils are about the only 50/50s that I play against in my area. Thresh, affinity, gobos, suiblack, eva green, belcher, and survival I have little to no problems against.

The reason my deck operates as well as it does with a low land count is because I play so many low casting cost spot removal answers to aggro.

I've already written more than I planned, as I said originally, I wasn't looking for a critique. However, one thing I will say, as I'm tired of hearing it, is that force spike in the same deck as back to basics gives it lategame viability. Is it amazing? No. Does it work against every deck? No. But I would say out of every 2 to 3 match, I get a force spike through past turn 8-10 at least once.

Throw it together and play around with it before you completely dismiss it for not following the norm Parker. You can play whatever you want, but don't completely bash something because it doesn't look right on paper. If I didn't make unorthodox choices I wouldn't have my mox or my playset of drains.

Madmaniac21
05-15-2008, 02:22 PM
I think the next real question/argument for MUC is - why play creatures that swing over the Painter's/Grindstone combo?

Fewer slots, allows you to better run thirst for knowledge (especially in chalice builds), and wins immediately.

Arsenal
05-15-2008, 02:29 PM
I think the next real question/argument for MUC is - why play creatures that swing over the Painter's/Grindstone combo?

Fewer slots, allows you to better run thirst for knowledge (especially in chalice builds), and wins immediately.

Fewer slots? Most MUC builds run 2 win conditions; 1 Morphling + 1 something else. How would Painter's/Grindstone take up fewer spots than 2?

ParkerLewis
05-16-2008, 01:27 AM
Throw it together and play around with it before you completely dismiss it for not following the norm Parker. You can play whatever you want, but don't completely bash something because it doesn't look right on paper. If I didn't make unorthodox choices I wouldn't have my mox or my playset of drains.

I definitely did not openly dismiss it. I'm just saying this isn't really MUC, and not because of "not following the norm", but because the spirit of the deck is not the same.

Richard
05-18-2008, 12:10 PM
It does, and I am experimenting with it, but it will probably require a totally new deck to accomodate it, as I said earlier. I'll post my findings later when I finish screwing around with it.

(I'm maybe a bit impatient) Kadaj, do you already have test results? I am curious about the new list with the curse of chains, can u post it?

Kadaj
05-18-2008, 08:16 PM
I have neither finished my testing nor can I post my list. Why? Because it's still in early testing stages and I may or may not decide to play it sometime soon. Still, the early returns are almost entirely positive. Curse of Chains definitely warrants further exploration.

Clark Kant
05-24-2008, 04:46 AM
I do think that we need to iron out the win conditions.

2 is ideal in my opinion. This is a control deck after all.

1 Morphling is an obvious autoinclude.

The second card is a fight between...

Meloku vs. Oona Queen of the Fae vs. Rainbow Efreet

Has anyone tested these three cards against each other? Which is superior?

Currently, I'm running Meloku and am pleased, but haven't tested the others much.

ParkerLewis
05-24-2008, 05:35 AM
The second card is a fight between...

Meloku vs. Oona Queen of the Fae vs. Rainbow Efreet

Has anyone tested these three cards against each other? Which is superior?

Currently, I'm running Meloku and am pleased, but haven't tested the others much.

Oona is clearly the inferior choice. More expensive, no built-in way to protect it from removal... it's bad. I'd really rather just play a second Morphling.

Meloku... never liked it and probably never will. no built-in way to protect it. slow unless you're okay returning all your lands into your hand (which you shouldn't be). in any case, requires investment.

Rainbow Efreet : cheap, unkillable barring some split second shenanigans.

Seriously, this is not a choice here ;)

Silthyn
05-24-2008, 05:55 AM
Oona is clearly the inferior choice. More expensive, no built-in way to protect it from removal... it's bad. I'd really rather just play a second Morphling.

Meloku... never liked it and probably never will. no built-in way to protect it. slow unless you're okay returning all your lands into your hand (which you shouldn't be). in any case, requires investment.

Rainbow Efreet : cheap, unkillable barring some split second shenanigans.

Seriously, this is not a choice here ;)

Rainbow Efreet also dodges Pernicious Deed/Wrath of God/Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood/Pox/Small Pox, which is awesome :wink:

ParkerLewis
05-24-2008, 06:15 AM
Rainbow Efreet also dodges Pernicious Deed/Wrath of God/Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood/Pox/Small Pox, which is awesome :wink:

that was my point ;)

Kadaj
05-24-2008, 07:41 AM
First off, three is the correct number, not two. I'd be glad to debate that point, as I assure you there will be situations where you'll have to pitch a win-condition to FoW or have something Thoughtseized, etc. It is those moments where you will wish you were playing three win-conditions and not two. Two win-conditions also has an unfortunate habit of making time even more of a factor than it normally. Running into situations where both win-conditions are in the bottom 10 cards is not good times.

Second, the ideal set-up of win-conditions is:
X2 Morphling
X1 Rainbow Efreet

Morphling is by far the best overall win-condition available to MUC. Anyone who debates that fact is a fool. Rainbow Efreet is the hardest of all win-conditions to actually kill and it's still fast enough to ensure that you can actually kill someone with it. Oona is garbage because 6 mana for a 5/5 is crap unless it either immediately wins the game (which Oona doesn't) or has an effect that prevents its death from being devastating (which again, Oona doesn't). Meloku is worse than Rainbow Efreet because it fills a different niche. Rainbow Efreet is specifically included for immunity to mass removal. Meloku is more or less strictly worse than Morphling, considering it's only just about that fast and has no immunity or flexibility.

Before anyone asks, yes I have tested the above suggestions. Repeatedly. It only takes one instance of having your Morphling Pernicious Deeded away to clue you in to the fact that you need something that is immune to those shenanigans as an alternative win-condition.

Doks
05-24-2008, 11:56 AM
In addition, most builds run 3-4 FoF - in my experience, my opponents usually split up like "Wincon" and "the card you need to not lose the game in this specific situation".
Against control with mass removal I usually try to force B2B through to cut their mana they might use for a counterwar about P. D. / WoG =P

scantronboi
05-29-2008, 01:09 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to the forums but definitely not new to magic. I started playing when Tempest came out and took a few years off after the release of 8th Edition/Mirrodin (you can say I boycotted the new art as long as possible :tongue: ).

I've recently gotten back into the scene and have always loved playing mono-blue. It took me a good 2 weeks to read through all 43 pages of this thread in my spare time but I think it was well worth it to get an idea of how this deck has evolved over the years.

With all the background out of the way, I'd like to post my decklist for critique and also pose some questions and thoughts.

Legacy Mono-Blue Control (60 cards):
//Land(23)
23 Island
//Creatures(3)
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
//Counters(14)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak OR 4 Spell Snare OR 4 Foil
2 Misdirection
//Draw(8)
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse
//Disruption(12)
3 Powder Keg
3 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
//Sideboard(15)
4 Chalice of the Void (combo, storm)
4 Hydroblast (red)
2 Arcane Lab/Stifle (combo, storm)
2 Tormod's Crypt (graveyard)
2 Repeal/Echoing Truth (bounce tokens)
1 Morphling


Thoughts
1) Is Treachery a viable alternative to Vedalken Shackles? 5 to cast with "free" ability unless you face blue versus a split 3/2 to cast with reusability in the form of an artifact (no color hosing). My reasoning is that with two other higher priority spells to be played on your third land drop (Propaganda, Back to Basics), could Treachery be a better option considering you wouldn't play shackles until your 4th or 5th landdrop anyway?
2) If I only run 8 draw spells, which ones do I pick from? FoF, Impulse, Accumulated Knowledge, Ancestral Vision?
3) I cannot make up my mind on the last slot of counters. Mana leak, spell snare, or foil?
4) I believe Kadaj mentioned that solidarity is no longer a staple in the format, may I ask why this is without having to thread through a 107 pg thread?
5) For casual play, how would Legacy MUC fare against Vintage control decks like Keeper (did they change the name of it?)?

Thanks for any input :smile:

Arsenal
05-29-2008, 01:25 PM
1.) Shackles > Treachery. Shackles comes online a turn faster than Treachery (if absolutely necessary), and it's far more flexible (allowing for you to turn the gamestate from stall into win... using your opponent's creatures).

2.) 8 spells is kinda low, I stick with a minimum of 10, but I suppose AV and FoF would be the best to use.

3.) Spell Snare is far less conditional, and it can literally make or break your match if you're on the draw. I'd pick Spell Snare over Mana Leak, Foil, Rune Snag, any other conditional counter.

4.) Because there are better protected, faster, and more versatile combo decks out there now. See TES and even FT for reference.

5.) I have no idea.

Illissius
05-29-2008, 01:38 PM
1) Among other reasons, Shackles is reusable, Treachery isn't. Nothing like stealing one of your opponent's creatures to trade with another, and then untapping to do it again next turn.

4) Multiple reasons. When the fastest combo deck other than Solidarity (which wins on turn 4) won on turn 3, Solidarity could hijack the storm count and win in response to the other player going off, and thus dominate combo mirrors. These days many combo decks (Belcher, TES) go off in the first two turns, so this no longer works, and Solidarity loses. I suspect Ichorid isn't pleasant, either. Then there's the fact that the printing of Tarmogoyf has lead to an explosion in the popularity of Threshold, which is Solidarity's worst matchup, and Counterbalance/Top has become mainstream which is even worse. And basically, the other combo decks are better.

EDIT -- Upon engaging my brain cells the worst matchup for Solidarity is actually probably some kind of LD deck (Deadguy Ale, Pox?), but Threshold is pretty bad, anyways.

5) Pretty badly I think, though you can put up a fight. Your only hope is Back to Basics (backed up by Keg), but when you don't have any artifact mana yourself to accelerate it nor any of the other Keeper brokenness (Drains, Ancestral, Balance, Will), it's going to be a tough slog.

scantronboi
05-29-2008, 01:46 PM
4) Multiple reasons. When the fastest combo deck other than Solidarity (which wins on turn 4) won on turn 3, Solidarity could hijack the storm count and win in response to the other player going off, and thus dominate combo mirrors. These days many combo decks (Belcher, TES) go off in the first two turns, so this no longer works, and Solidarity loses. I suspect Ichorid isn't pleasant, either. Then there's the fact that the printing of Tarmogoyf has lead to an explosion in the popularity of Threshold, which is Solidarity's worst matchup, and Counterbalance/Top has become mainstream which is even worse. And basically, the other combo decks are better.


Thanks for the quick replies. With that being said, what are the odds of MUC pulling off a victory facing the current archetypes of Belcher/TES and Threshold? I presume Arcane Lab/Stifle would be the answer to storm and Propaganda/B2B would be immediately solutions to Thresh.

Actually, an update on how well MUC fares in the current competitive Legacy scene would be appreciated. The only matchup analysis in depth was the original post which was back in 2006.

Smog
05-29-2008, 07:16 PM
belcher is 50/50 (maybe 60/40) for me pre-board. much better post.

threshold is one of the easier match ups though still not guarenteed depending on the splash.

sorry to say their are no competitive tes or tendrils decks in my area.

Kadaj
05-29-2008, 07:38 PM
Just for what it's worth, I'd be fully willing to work on a new opening post if anyone else feels it's worth the effort.

Beyond that, Shackles is better than Treachery because it's reusable and is utterly game-breaking in the late-game, even moreso than Treachery would be. Belcher is basically Force or Foil (in my more recent lists) or bust. They're so fast that it's unlikely your standard Counterspell will come online, and ETW is likely to be too slow considering you have 8 ways to shut it down by turn 3 (Powder Keg and Propaganda).

The Threshold matchup is the biggest reason to play this deck right now. It's around 60-40 overall, with fluxuation depending on the specific lists in question.

Richard
05-30-2008, 03:08 AM
Just for what it's worth, I'd be fully willing to work on a new opening post if anyone else feels it's worth the effort.

I would very much appreciate it, your comments are always helpful! :laugh:

Smog
05-30-2008, 03:33 AM
I would say this thread is due for a long needed revamp. Many of the same questions, arguments, and cards get brought up every 5 or so pages because people are too lazy to at least scim the entire thread.

Doks
05-30-2008, 05:34 AM
Just for what it's worth, I'd be fully willing to work on a new opening post if anyone else feels it's worth the effort.

Yes, go for it - Kadaj for president :tongue:

Other than this, a guy named Jeremia Rudolph placed Top8 two times in a row (here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16370) and here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15409)) both times using Ophidian / Augury Adept as a main draw engine for his deck.
Is ist just because he usually plays Vintage (where Phid has always been included) or did they stop to suck that hard? =P


Doks

Kadaj
05-30-2008, 06:46 PM
I actually know Jeremiah Rudolph personally, although not well. I imagine his reasoning for playing Phid/Adept had more to do with his Vintage experience, where Phid is actually tits because blockers are so much rarer, than actual Legacy testing or whathaveyou. At any rate, Ophidian isn't terrible, it's just not as good as the other options. I'm not surprised he did well with a list that most of us would consider sub-optimal, he's an exceptional player and could probably have picked up anything and done well.

I'll get on that new post this weekend, hopefully I'll have it done sometime next week.

Doks
06-04-2008, 04:16 PM
Placed 4th last weekend at Germany's Iserlohn (69 players) with this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16706).

Matchups:

1. Elves! 2:0
2. MBC/g 2:0
3. TarmoBalance 2:1
4. Dragon Stompy 2:0
5. NQG/B 2:0
6. Ichorid / Dredge 1:2
7. AngelStax U-Splash 2:0

Quite solid performance, only 3 or 4 Mulls to 6 in all games. Sometimes I had to play aggressively with an early Finisher (6-7 lands in play) - most decks had boarded out their pinpointremoval what made them lose the game when Morphling / Meloku resolved. Meloku won me about two games I would have lost since I needed a fast lategamekill in the form of 5-6 EOT-Tokens ;).
Maybe I'd like to add 1 more Island but I am not sure - over all, the mana was just adequate - neither too much nor too short.
EE @ 3 got these damn Oblivion Ringe (I am serious!), Jaces, 3 Spheres, Specters and postboard Chokes - maybe I'd add another U-Dual to ensure that EE for 3 will come down reliably.

So far,

Doks

Illissius
06-04-2008, 06:23 PM
Congrats on the finish.

In the version of the deck where the fetchlands plus singleton Swamp and Plains configuration first debuted, it was also used to gain access to Extirpate and, some white card, via Cunning Wish. Is there a reason you didn't go this route, or just sideboard Extirpates manually? ("I only have five sources of black" is, of course, a pretty solid reason, if that was it). How often did the Swamp and Plains interfere with your Shackles?

As for the obvious question, I'll not ask it. I assume you had your reasons.

EDIT: Also, what's your opinion about the relative merits of Fact or Fiction and Ancestral Vision? I see you played Fact -- have you tested Ancestral?

Doks
06-05-2008, 01:51 AM
I didn't play Cunning Wish because I am not completely convinced of it right now. It gives the deck utility, no question, but as many players always mentioned, consistency and steadiness are this deck's strength. Impulse in CW's place helped me to find a maindeck solution whenever it was needed - mostly in the form of EE. Then keeping the board off of threatening things was quite easy with all those counters, so I never felt the need for a singleton StoP from the SB. I have to admit, that a G1 Extirpate usually is a strong play, but if I go for CW, I probably want to be able to play the wished card whenever I go for it and I don't think a single Swamp will do the job reliable enough. Postboard, Crypt was the much safer choice since I don't play a second black source (-> "I only have five sources of black" ;]).
Once you reach an amount of 3 or 4 Islands in the first 6 or so turns, Shackles is strong enough and a Plains or Swamp won't hurt. You never want to let Tarmogoyf hit the board when holding both a Spell Snare and Shackles in hand, anyway. At that time, I rarley met any bigger creatues (except for a Tombstalker I had to manaleak then).
Yes, I tested Ancestral Visions, but not in a build like that. General opinion is that you should use AV in more boardcontrol oriented builds with about 12 permanent control elements (Propaganda in addtion to Shackles, B2B, Keg/EE) and Brainstorm in more stackoriented builds like the one I played - which has proven to be the right choice. I needed to dig for a counter more often in the early turns since I couldn't hope to get a "lock" with B2B / Propaganda going that will save me after the threat resolved or at least just buy me a few turns.
Fact or Fiction as a 4 of was an obvious choice since it was the only pure drawspell (I really want to test Augury Adept in addition to it some day!). It gets even stronger with that low landcount. FoFs that contained EE (or postboard Repeals), 2x Counter, random spell and land always won me the game when played during an even board position.

Eldariel
06-05-2008, 03:26 AM
Hmm, so what did you lose to? Faeries or Dark Belcher? Or was it a 4-way split? Also, were you missing any number of MD Propagandas at any point? Finally, did you feel the red-hate wasted seeing your match-ups?

Congratulations, though. Oh yeah, and it would be awesome to have Kadaj write a new opening post since the deck has come such a long way, with actual semi-optimized lists et al.

slyfer
06-05-2008, 03:51 AM
Hi, It's my first post in this topic.
The topic is honestly huge, I read back the last dozen of pages... I would try to sum up the situation, because it seems there are 2 viable "ways" both with pro&cons obviously, 2 most "promising" strategies.
Fow, counterspell, 3 finishers, shakles, fact of fiction and about 23 mana sources are staples.
1) fetch + brainstorm + explosives + spell snare + manipulation (impulse)
respectively in place of:
2) island only + ancestral vision + powder keg + chalice of the void + all_board_control (propaganda maindeck)

The choices are tied together, you can't play explosives in monoU, so that all is connected.

The first has better early game with brainstorm+snare and uses singleton basic lands with explosives (can deal with stuff cc3, can topdeck and destroy cc2 the same turn, faster than keg). Brainstorm is good also to reshuffle back dead card like finisher in early game + help in building up lands, searching the third, forth, ecc...

The second version with vision has a weakness if you are stuck at 2/3 lands and you didn't start with ancestral vision turn 1.... because fact or fiction cost 4, and so if the lands don't come up you are in big trubles. This version cannot manipulate, cannot reshuffle back bad cards (not only the finishers but sometimes back to basics also).
I justify the use of ancestral vision ONLY if there is *chalice of the void* maindeck, that is a very big bomb in some match.
The latter has also early game problems BUT can compensate with all the board control pieces maindeck (4 propaganda)
I am testing idraleo version of the deck and I must say it performs very good (23 lands, draw= vision+fact, counters= fow + counter + 3 chalice + 3 cryptic command, board control= 2keg, 4 propaganda 3btb, 3 shakles, winner=3).

For example chalice@2 even if stopped my counterspells (but still I have cryptic command and fow) completely shuts down loam deck he cannot play 80% of the deck (confidant, goyf, wish, loam, assault is useless without loaming), he is on topdeck and you can buy a lot of time (btb, propaganda hits him much) until swing or steal with vedalken shakles.
Chalice can turn very hard match up into winnable match up, so it's a slow card, but quite powerfull. I think versions without chalices have troubles with combo (say belcher or FT), every orim chant is a must counter and is not hit by snare.

I don't know if chalice is *always* strictly better, because sometimes you face decks that are not hit by that (white stacker, dragon stompy, affinity, control decks with deed + explosives, dredge, goblin, maybe aluren) or you miss the "tempo" (stifle+naught, you fow, they fow on turn 2 only because you lose the dice roll, it's quite frustrating).
So I think it's a metagame call.

EDIT: discards dont's scare either version because the former has brainstorm, the latter has huge draw. Also if they duress/seize it's hard for them to decide you have counters + board control, so if they took board control (otherway they lose to a btb or vedalken for example), you still keep the counter, and vice versa.

Doks
06-05-2008, 04:57 AM
Hmm, so what did you lose to? Faeries or Dark Belcher? Or was it a 4-way split? Also, were you missing any number of MD Propagandas at any point? Finally, did you feel the red-hate wasted seeing your match-ups?


The T8 were not played out, opponent score was deciding after 7 rounds. I've gone with 5:1 into the last round, defeated Stax and was one of 3 guys having 6 won games - unfortunately with the lowest opp score.

MD Propagandas:
would have been really necessary against Ichorid / Dredge - the only card that may save your life preboard. As I didn't play it, I just scooped and went for the other two games where a double Propaganda followed up with a crypt has been game. I didn't have the force G3 to stop his Breakthrough so he killed me before I could lay down Propaganda.
Against Elves, it would have been useful too preboard, but EE @ 1/2 and Shackles have been devasting enough for my opponent anyway. G2 Propaganda was just the "I win with a 200% probability".

BEBs:

The one Hydroblast in the maindeck list is just a Typo - I played exactly 60 cards, never planned to use one maindeck.
I went for 5 BEBs in the SB because there were several Burn / Goblindecks preparing at the tables. They paid out against Dragon Stompy at least.

Kadaj
06-05-2008, 01:42 PM
Just as an update, I'm working on the new opening post but obviously I haven't finished yet. I'm trying to make sure I have a balanced slate of decklists representing the various ways MUC has been built over the past few months.

Anyway, congratulations on your finish Doks. My one question would be if you felt as though Mana Leak carried its weight, as whenever I employed that card I always felt thoroughly underwhelmed, which is actually a major part of the reason I pushed my own versions of MUC in the direction they've gone.

As far as Chalice of the Void goes, it's awful in MUC. That was established a long time ago (30 some odd pages in this stupidly long thread), as it requires garbage like Chrome Mox and Thirst for Knowledge for it to be useful. Also, I urge you to actually test my version before making assumptions. There are almost no early game issues because there's a minimal likelihood that you'll actually have dead cards in your hand. For example, I kept a hand that was something like Shackles, Keg, Keg, Ancestral Vision, Land, Land, Land, against and unknown opponent who turned out to be playing UW Landstill and won handily. Why? Because AV is an absolute bomb against other control and because this deck has very few dead cards against any deck in this format.

Illissius
06-05-2008, 07:02 PM
As far as Chalice of the Void goes, it's awful in MUC. That was established a long time ago (30 some odd pages in this stupidly long thread), as it requires garbage like Chrome Mox and Thirst for Knowledge for it to be useful.

For the record, I don't think this is necessarily true. I played a UBG Landstill deck once with three maindeck Chalices and none of the dumb gimmicks to go with it (no Moxen, no Thirsts, though I did have an Academy) and it was pretty awesome. It was effectively the deck's win condition -- where, for other control decks, the plan was "play a fat creature and swing a few times", here it was "drop Chalices at every relevant value where the opponent's deck has spells, then beat them to death with Factories"*. And, of course, you can also drop it earlyish for 0, 1, or 2 against various decks (Storm, Threshold, Slivers) and piss them off greatly thereby, so it's a versatile and useful card all around.

Granted, UBG Landstill and MUC are rather different decks, but my point here is that Chalice of the Void can be a perfectly powerful card in its own right, and doesn't require any of the attendant gimmicks to be good.

* Interesting fact: I never once actually killed an opponent with Factories. They conceded first every single time.

Kadaj
06-05-2008, 08:09 PM
The reason I state that it requires Chrome Mox and Thirst for Knowledge to be useful is because MUC is not a deck that can take advantage of Chalice of the Void in any proactive way, and especially not when the first value it can be dropped where it'll be relevant is 1. Without Chrome Mox the earliest you can do that is turn 2, which isn't exactly the best time to be tapping out. I mean, I did test it for quite a while, and it was in vogue for a while as well. The problem is the lack of consistency and power provided by it, and the risks it poses in terms of dead slots and whatnot.

Mind you, I'm not debating that Chalice of the Void is a powerful card on its own, I'm merely stating that it's not viable in this deck without the addition of several cards of questionable value, which makes Chalice much weaker than it could be.

scantronboi
06-05-2008, 08:38 PM
Two Thoughts:

Can Misdirection find any slots in the latest decklists of MUC? I personally like to run 2 maindeck as the 13th and 14th "counters" after FoW/CSpell/SSnare.

Is Accumulated Knowledge even worthwhile without the Inuition engine? I would need test results but theoretically thinking AK has potential as long as you get to see more than one copy of it. Also, AK has good synergy with and would be a good pitch to a FoW/Misdirection/FoF. FoF is definitely a 4 of but could 4 AK's replace 4 Impulses or 4 Ancestral Visions?

Ozymandias
06-05-2008, 09:02 PM
AK is a terrible pitch to Fow or MisD, because then it shuts down the AK engine. For sheer card advantage, better to play Think Twice. However, you will find that in this deck, the card advantage is immaterial compared to the selection of Impulse.

slyfer
06-06-2008, 03:58 AM
Kadaj, are you serious? Playing chalice doesn't mean I *must* play crome mox and thirst!
Please read carefully what I wrote, because I think you just read a couple of lines and passed over it.
I play 4 fow 4 counterspell 3 chalice 3 cryptic command as permissions, 4 ancestral vision 4 fact or fiction as drawer, I have ZERO card @ cc1, so I can blindly set chalice @1, and sometimes also @2 making many decks just scooping (futhermore there is a trick with cryptic command so that I can also safely play chalice @2).
It's impossible for a control deck to counter everything, that's where chalice shines, it's obviously more powerfull than counterbalance

Shivanking
06-06-2008, 04:09 AM
two week ago I have played a shadowmoor draft and I saw a beautyful creature for this deck:
Ghastlord of Fugue (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/162.html).
This creature is, in my opinion, a card especially for decks as MUC.
The cc is 5 and It's a 4/4 unblockable. when it deals combat damage to a player that player reveal his hand and you may remove any card from it!

Silthyn
06-06-2008, 04:40 AM
two week ago I have played a shadowmoor draft and I saw a beautyful creature for this deck:
Ghastlord of Fugue (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/162.html).
This creature is, in my opinion, a card especially for decks as MUC.
The cc is 5 and It's a 4/4 unblockable. when it deals combat damage to a player that player reveal his hand and you may remove any card from it!

It doesn't have any kind of removal-protection, unlike Morphling and Rainbow Efreet.

Clark Kant
06-06-2008, 11:32 AM
Yes, but it has the best form of disruption imaginable.

Even if you just protect it for a single turn and hit with it just once, it will reveal your opponents entire hand, give you intimate knowledge of their game plan and what cards you should save your counters for, and deprive them of the single most threatening card in their whole hand.

Thus just one strike from Ghastlard is typically enough to change you from a losing position to a winning one.

Ozymandias
06-06-2008, 12:17 PM
Well, it dies to Swords, it dies to burn, it is a 5-turn clock instead of a 4-turn clock, it can be stolen, bounced, countered, and otherwise be negated. If you were going to play an alternate 5cc creature besides Morphling or Meloku, which I would not recommend, Teferi is clearly better.

Also, if this deck is losing heavily on a board position, it's probably also losing the game, so I don't think our buddy Ghastly is turning much around against a Tarmogoyf that is bigger than he is.

Kadaj
06-06-2008, 02:51 PM
Kadaj, are you serious? Playing chalice doesn't mean I *must* play crome mox and thirst!
Please read carefully what I wrote, because I think you just read a couple of lines and passed over it.
I play 4 fow 4 counterspell 3 chalice 3 cryptic command as permissions, 4 ancestral vision 4 fact or fiction as drawer, I have ZERO card @ cc1, so I can blindly set chalice @1, and sometimes also @2 making many decks just scooping (futhermore there is a trick with cryptic command so that I can also safely play chalice @2).
It's impossible for a control deck to counter everything, that's where chalice shines, it's obviously more powerfull than counterbalance

If you want Chalice to be good you pretty much have to be playing Mox and Thirst. I'm sure you will attempt to refute that, so I'll provide my well tested reasoning for that statement.

The earliest you can play Chalice at 1 is turn 2 without Mox in your deck. Now let's look at the commonly played cards that Chalice at 1 actually stops for the three major decks in Legacy (Goblins, Landstill, Threshold).

Goblins:
Lackey and Aether Vial

I don't know about you, but usually when my opponent is playing Goblins and has a Lackey or Vial in hand it comes down on turn 1. That means your chalice will almost invariably be too late to do anything relevant.

Threshold:
Brainstorm, Ponder, SDT, Mongoose, Thoughtseize/STP/Lightning Bolt

This is where Chalice can actually be solid regardless. However, to accurately evaluate Chalice in this situation you have to look at what it's actually doing. You have paid two mana, and tapped out most likely, to stop your opponent from playing four to five cards. That's assuming they actually let Chalice resolve, which I find unlikely. However, what have you really done?

If they had a SDT it was coming down turn 1, and its equally likely that if they had a Brainstorm or a Ponder it was used on turn 1 as well. If in fact they did get turn 1 SDT through then your Chalice's effects are significantly mitigated because they will be able to just continue cantripping, or even dig for an EE to remove it. Thoughtseize, STP, and Bolt are all stopped cold by Chalice, but none of them are particularly relevant in this matchup anyway. Yes, Chalice at 1 will stop a Mongoose cold in most cases, but you might as well just play a Meddling Mage naming Mongoose in that situation.

Is Chalice potentially a bomb against Thresh? Yes, but only when it comes down turn 1, or when you get really lucky.

Landstill:
STP and Brainstorm

Congratulations, you spent two mana to cut-off access to an already dead card and a cantrip. Great trade that is.

Now, you can say something like "Well no control deck can counter everything!" (which in fact you already did) in attempting to justify Chalice's inclusion, but that's foolish because MUC doesn't have to counter everything. Why do you think all of my versions play so much card-drawing and Board Control? So I have access to a large amount of varied and high effective answers to potential problems an opponent could pose in a match.

Clark Kant
06-06-2008, 04:19 PM
I don't think saying that Chalice is unplayable without Chrome Mox and TFK is a fair statement.

I play Chalice in my sideboard. I happily bring it against storm combo, thresh, burn and some other random matchups.

The card is very strong with or without Chrome Mox.

If my meta were composed predominantly of storm combo, thresh and burn, I wouldn't hesistate to play Chalice maindeck without Chrome Mox.

But in many metas, I don't think it warrants maindeck inclusion though.

idraleo
06-06-2008, 04:25 PM
So you' re assuming that 3shold will get ever SDT on turn 1 and goblin won' t keep an hand without Lakey or Vial on turn1. On the thought your logic is right, but on the percentual the games where Chalice hurts opponent gameplan is even more than those where it is useless.

BTW, Landstill and Thresh are good MU even without Chalice and Goblin is viable and not ever a bad MU; all those mu are good\playble even without Chalice, and Chalice simply let you get more advantage. Landstill without Brainstorms performs bad Forces and can't manage at best theyr hands, and Chalice sets on 1 hurts a lot Thresh at every time of the game.

Last of all, assume that your best 1st turn play is a suspended AV, not island-mox-chalice. A first turn Chalice in this deck is not supported well as it is in another decks because it not a lock piece for us, but a simply way to waste less cards and took our opponent to did some unusual move and turn the game in the direction we want it goes.

Kadaj
06-06-2008, 05:15 PM
So you' re assuming that 3shold will get ever SDT on turn 1 and goblin won' t keep an hand without Lakey or Vial on turn1. On the thought your logic is right, but on the percentual the games where Chalice hurts opponent gameplan is even more than those where it is useless.

No, that's actually not at all what I was asserting. What I was attempting to convey, although apparently not well enough, is that Chalice is a win-more card in the best of circumstances and a terrible card in the worst of circumstances.

First off, Goblins is not a good matchup for this deck. Period. Chalice is terrible against Goblins anyway, regardless of whether or not you stopped their turn 1 Lackey or Vial. Even in the best of circumstances it's not helping you because Lackey is not problematic after turn 1, and Vial is less effective if played after turn 1 as well. Chalice does nothing against Goblins other than take up space in a matchup where you cannot afford dead cards if you don't want to get steamrolled.

Second, you should be crushing Threshold without wasting slots on Chalice as it is. Chalice isn't improving the percentages here, it's just shifting the way you beat them. At any rate, I wasn't implying that Threshold always has SDT on turn 1, I was using that as an example for why Chalice isn't all that amazing there anyway.

Landstill is not so ridiculously reliant on Brainstorm that cutting them off from it will do anything of note other than be a minor annoyance, and get removed by EE and Pernicious Deed fairly quickly anyway. On that note, the same thing I said about Threshold applies here too. Landstill is a fairly positive matchup, not quite as good as the Threshold one however, and Chalice does not help that in any way.

I'll concede that Storm Combo is definitely a matchup where Chalice helps, but that's not so much because you can set it at one, but because you can set it at zero and make a huge difference. Then again, chances are you'll end up losing to competant storm combo pilot anyway because MUC is so ridiculously slow at actually killing an opponent that the combo player will have way too much time to bounce/remove whatever obstacles you place in their way before you can actually finish them off.

Burn, on the other hand, is not helped by Chalice nearly as much as it is by the 8 anti-red cards in my SB. BEB and Chill make that matchup go from about 35-65ish pre-board to at least the reverse post-board. BEB and Chill also have the infinitely more important purpose of making the Goblins matchup workable, something that Chalice doesn't help in any way shape or form.

Seriously people, there is a reason the chalice based builds were discarded a long time ago. Ask Doks, who used to play the chalice MUC builds a lot if I'm not mistake, as to his reasoning why he eventually put them aside. I'm betting the reasoning is because the other versions are exceedingly more consistent and powerful against the field at large. But that's just me.

idraleo
06-07-2008, 01:57 AM
Yep, i know too that the most amazing card against goblin is Propaganda and that post side you'll go to 4 BeB, but Chalice too helps us on comboish mu, that is a good percentual of the decks in my enviromnent, it cuts off 12 Burn cards enabling you to take tempo to get your Chills post side, shuts down Loam except by few cards.

And if we doesn' t go on Chalice anymore, what card should replace it that is so amazing against Thresh and Landstill on maindeck? Seriously, don' t say to go on Spell Snare, i' ve played it tons of games then cutted to go on Chalice, the best thing that he can do was did a random counter on Standstill. Seriously, i wanna know what card could be played maindeck that hurts Thresh, Burn, Comboish, Loam as much as Chalice do and helps in the same numbers of MUs.

Shimster
06-07-2008, 03:39 AM
As a half part vintage player, I like Ophidian very much. Since non-evasion critter and Propaganda don't achieve synergies, I tested Finkel (Shadowmage Infiltrator) in a MUCb shell and was quite pleased:

// Lands
17 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet (Possibly Meloku, although he does not dodge massremoval.)

// Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Counterspell
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda

// Sideboard (pretty much untested)
4 Duress (less dead cards against combo)
4 Extirpate (Loam is pretty sexy against MUC, if Big Blue cannot resolve B2B. Ichoridhate as well.)
4 Chill (Burn, Dragon Stompy, Goblins, TES to a lesser extent.)
3 Engineered Plague (Elves, Goblins, Ichorid to a lesser extent.)

Furthermore, I tried to exhaust Doks' fetchland-build by using Finkel and Hoofprints of the Stag (nice synergy, uh?):

// Lands
12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Morphling

// Spell
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Back to Basics
3 Meditate
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Hoofprints of the Stag

// Sideboard
15 Relentless Rats

I expanded the B splash for Finkels, although they aren't that good without Propaganda. Hoofprints are very powerful with the ton of carddraw (2 active Finkles enable nearly one token per turn). You should not underestimate Meditate, as they are golden in the control mirror and acceptable against aggro.

Doks
06-07-2008, 08:55 PM
My one question would be if you felt as though Mana Leak carried its weight

In this build, yes, it did. I just needed this additional counter several times to survive the early turns, especially against the decks that throw out one bomb after the other the first 4-5 Turns (e. g. MBC -> Phyrexian Arena / Hymn / Tombstalker or Stax -> Ravages of War / Amargeddon / 3Sphere / Crucible / Smokestack).
With an active B2B out, Mana Leak does not lose that much of it's strength so it was quite a solid choice this time.

@ the topic of a "CA-Critter":

I think Phid is outdated now with Augury Adept (I am a big fan of its lifegain ability!) out or a little splash for Finkel. I would really like to fit in 3 or even 4 copies of such a card drawing guy, but I feel the draw and search in form of EOT instants much too important and I don't like tapping out on T3 - we probably got to reduce the number of counters then.
Problem I see is that we play kind of "too much draw for too less answers" and a second question is in what kind of build (more permanent based which already runs tons of CC3 boardcontrol pieces or more instantrelying that already devotes at least 8 slots to draw and search and needs to cut other important cards) should we give it a try?

Maybe I could try sth. like this on my build:

-3 Impulse
-1 Mana Leak
-1 Fact or Fiction

+4 Augury Adept
+1 Land (U-Dual for firm EE@3 and possibly at 4)

Ozymandias
06-08-2008, 12:40 AM
I sort of question the utility of Augury Adept as card draw, given that it just zombifies your opponent's removal package. However, it might be quite useful as an anti-combo measure, given that it serves the twofold purpose of a) allowing you to exhaust yourself to stop the first rush and then quickly replenish and b) have some sort of clock to make a re-combo different.

As far as counters go, I think that 1 Foil to serve as FoW #5 might be a good idea.

Shimster
06-08-2008, 03:35 AM
According to my testing, Ophids are inferior to Impulse in counterspell based version, as they do not dig deep enough. On the other hand, they are golden in a list running 12 or more (?) permanent solutions: One is able to counter early threats aggressively, without losing too much gas in the late game, as they enable a constant draw.

As I already said, Ophidian and Augury Adept aren't that good in a permanent based MUC. Since the opponent's creatures are untapped because of Propaganda, the Ophid cannot connect. Finkel on the other hand has got evasion and is able to deal damage while drawing cards, whereas you need a black mana source (4 Polluted Delta and 4 Swamp are enough, even after sideboarding).

team17
06-12-2008, 09:40 AM
I finally registered on the forums so I can post my build.
It is a good build for the metagame here, it is good against a lot of aggro-control decks.

// Lands
24 [PT] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
1 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [EX] Forbid
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [TE] Propaganda
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle

I haven't tested against combo decks yet, but I bet I can win against them with a bit luck. (except Solidarity)

-Landstill is an easy match-up: B2B is almost an instant win.
-Threshold(threshold is probably the most played deck here) is also easy:
B2B, shackles and threads of disloyalty(!) are very good.
-Deck's like Dragon Stompy are very easy: Just counter the threats or steal a creature with shackles.
-aggro-control: B2B, threads and shackles
This are the match-up's I tested.

I'm not sure about my side-board, Echoing Thruth is very good against Bridge Ichorid and EtW kills. Tormod's Crypt is good against several decks, it is the only graveyard removal for blue? Stifle is good against whatever you want. Pith Needle is only because I don't now what to fill the last 4 slots with.

Any suggestions?

risethehandsofreason
06-12-2008, 05:31 PM
Having played MUC, Thresh and Dreadstill/Stifle-Nought and liking components of each, I really wanted to do a bit of a deck merger. So, I came up with a list that hits some of the high points of each. Although this post could also belong in a Stifle-Nought thread, I see the shell being primarily MUC in nature. Pardon me for posting if something like this has been hashed out before, but I was hoping to hear if anyone had tried something like:

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Morphling

2 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance

3 Back to Basics
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

3 Chrome Mox
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
16 Island

I, like many, wanted to speed MUC up a bit and give it some more versatility. That said, I cannot attest to whether or not this list accomplishes that. This is entirely untested.

The way Back to Basics punishes most decks is fantastic and what, for me, really makes MUC decent. With the long-game potential of counter-top and the 3rd win condition (next to Efreet / Morphling and Shackles) of Dreadnought, my thought is that it could be better than the typical, under-performing MUC build. I could be entirely wrong, here, though.

One obvious weakness is card disadvantage, with Chrome Mox and not a lot of card quantity draw spells. I have never played MUC without Propaganda main, so that could be an issue as well with certain decks if Counterbalance doesn't come online fast enough.

So, have any of you had success with counter-top in MUC? With stifle? I would be happy to hear critiques of this list. I am virtually certain that the coutner-top discussion has been had at length, and I apologize to the extent that this could duplicate that discussion. Thanks.

Kadaj
06-12-2008, 06:42 PM
The counter-top discussion has indeed happened at least twice in this thread, and the result is always the same. Counter-top does not belong in this deck, for a multitude of reasons, some of which being how many slots it requires, and the fact that MUC cannot take advantage of the tempo it generates.

As far as adding Dreadnaught, there's really no reason to do that. Stifle isn't really that good in the maindeck against a significant portion of the field, and MUC doesn't struggle to kill opponents within a time limit anyway. Not if you know what you're doing at least. Morphling will end a game in 3-4 turns almost every time, and even Rainbow Efreet will do the job in 5 or so turns. Dreadnaught just takes up unnecessary space for a card that will far too often be completely useless and, once again, MUC is not a deck equipped to take advantage of Dreadnaught through tempo and knocking an opponent off balance quickly so Dreadnaught can actually kill them.

Doks
06-13-2008, 01:11 PM
So, have any of you had success with counter-top in MUC? With stifle? I would be happy to hear critiques of this list. I am virtually certain that the coutner-top discussion has been had at length, and I apologize to the extent that this could duplicate that discussion. Thanks.


The counter-top discussion has indeed happened at least twice in this thread, and the result is always the same. Counter-top does not belong in this deck, for a multitude of reasons, some of which being how many slots it requires, and the fact that MUC cannot take advantage of the tempo it generates.


Other reasons being that MUC is much too vulnerable in the early game. You got better things to do than setting up the engine while it needs to come down quite early to be effective.

For Stifle:
it really is quite useful against stormbased combo, but you should have already quite a good game against that (TES might trouble you if you can't counter Orim's Chant though).
Wastelands can't even touch you so no landprotecting use for Stifle in MUC.
It's not that effective to Stifle an opposing Fetchland since you
1. can't abuse the won tempo advantage
2. always have to have U ready even EOT so you play as if your opponent had played a SoR (can't remember who made this comparison but I really liked that)

@ Kadaj: how is your "new primer's" state of progress? ;)

Kadaj
06-13-2008, 07:12 PM
Well, I just got back from the hospital, so chances are it'll have to wait until I'm feeling up to it. Hopefully sometime during next week.

risethehandsofreason
06-16-2008, 11:19 AM
Thank you for the feedback. I should note that, after I posted, I did find a very similar deck list on this thread (post #326, 10.22.07, FredMaster).

Although not exhaustive, I did test this list against Armageddon Stacks, Belcher, and Goblins. The deck performed very well, except for the Goblins matchup. That was to be expected. Post-board, the goblins matchup was still very difficult, as would also be expected.

The times that I won convincingly have been when I have gotten a first or second turn dreadnought. That, of course, is to be expected, as is the fact that that does not often happen. The dreadnought component is, admittedly, an unfocused strategy.

It may be a lost cause but, after a few adjustments, I will give this thing a shot at our local legacy tournament this week. I can report back on how poorly it performs and confirm your analysis. While I would love for that not to be the case, I am not counting on it. Thanks for the help.

risethehandsofreason
06-19-2008, 01:54 PM
I ran the above list at a local tournament, minus counter-top, plus propaganda in the main, and with a 4/4 Brainstorm, AV split. I went 1-0-2 against Ichorid, 4-Color Stifle-Nought, and Welder Survival, with the latter being my only win. Some observations:

Chrome mox was dead about half the time.

Stifle and dreadnought were fun and seem to be the way the deck wanted to win the most. It seems that the deck could move in the stifle-nought direction without spoiling its plan.

Even in the traditional builds, I've wanted more win conditions, as Shackles often sits with no targets. The Stifle-Nought matchup was a good example of this. He held Tarmogoyfs and Dreadnoughts all game, since I could take them both. Not losing wasn't too hard, but winning was harder.

As much as I want this deck to consistently do well, it seems that its place is primarily limited to certain surprise meta-gaming situations. That will change when we get a blue Tarmogoyf.

Frid
06-22-2008, 06:12 AM
Hi, its my first post. Maybe you guys can help to make my deck better, its an old ophidian list.


3 Polluted delta
3 Flooded Strand
17 Island

4 Counterspell
4 Force of will
4 Mana leak
4 Brainstorm
4 Augury adept (im testing this, but i used 4 shadowmage infiltrator with a black splash, what do u think about this?)
3 Impulse
3 Force spike
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Powder keg
2 Vedalken shackles
2 Back to basics
2 Morphling

The sideboard is not tested, so if u have any suggestion plz focus on the maindeck.

1 vedalken shackles
3 tormods crypt
3 chalice of the void
4 propaganda
4 chill

thefreakaccident
06-22-2008, 07:01 AM
Here is where my list is at, when I dust it off:

lands//23
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
17 island

creatures//3
1 rainbow efreet
1 meloku, the clouded mirror
1 morphling

spells//34
4 ancestral visions
4 counterspell
4 force of will
4 vedalken shackles
4 brainstorm
4 spell snare
2 powder keg (a little slow, want something else)
3 fact or fiction
3 manaleak/whatev.
2 impulse


Sideboard//
4 propaganda
4 back to basics
2 pithing needle
3 hydroblast
2 BEB


I don't have any board for grave hate or combo hate, as if you are loosing to combo w/ 15 countermagic, something is wrong... I also gave up o the loam.ichorid matchups... they are so hopeless, there isn't a point in wasting board space.

deadlock
06-22-2008, 07:41 AM
First of, please dont post lists without explanations of your card choices.
Without any hints i cannt tell, but to me both your lists doesnt look that good.

Especially the one of freak, cutting B2B is horrible imo. Additionally i see no point in overloading the list with 2 cmc counterspells (=Mana Leak), because often they are too slow and you have to answer a resolved threat anyway.

For reference this is my current list:

Creatures
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Back to Basics
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Powder Keg
2 Propaganda
3 Impulse

Lands
24 Island

SB:
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Back to Basics
1 Powder Keg
2 Propaganda
3 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Stifle

Card Explanations: Most of the stuff is pretty self-explanatory.

-This one is quite close to Kadaj's i think, but i like the choices Impulse gives instead of maxing everthing out, which i can do after boarding anyway.

-2 Morphlings over Meloku / Morphling split. Sometimes i am quit out of gas and doesnt have the counterspells that would be needed to protect Meloku from removal. In other words i prefer the Morphling abilitys over the stalling versus multiple creatures that Meloku offers.

SB:
-1of's to max out where it comes handy (including Propaganda).
-Crypt vs. Loam and Ichorid and the like.
-Stifle vs fast Storm combo and Goblins. (Maybe even vs Ichorid to Stifle Nacro triggers.)

The combo matchup may lack a little bit, but i guess i have to accept that.

When playing this deck its quite a different feeling from the usual blue stuff, which keeps cantriping and shuffling all the time. You simple but raw power spells on the board of which a single one can nearly crush an enemy. :cool:

Frid
06-22-2008, 11:43 AM
So u think i should cut the mana leak and add spell snare? yeah i can try it. I se that u dont use ophidians, maybe becouse its hard that they survive or becouse with a simple blocker on the other side they cant do their job, so is ancestral visions a good replace for ophidians?

Why dont u use brainstorm? I see them very usefull with fetchlands and keeping a 1 or 2 lands hand is possible with them.

Do u think its really necesary run propaganda in main deck?

I agree that Morphling>> Meloku :)

Sorry for my poor english :P

ParkerLewis
06-22-2008, 12:28 PM
Why dont u use brainstorm? I see them very usefull with fetchlands and keeping a 1 or 2 lands hand is possible with them.

There are basically two ways to go with this deck : either you're going with the filtering/cantripping version, playing less lands, and more fetches, or you're playing the "raw card advantage" version, with more lands and actual draw spells (ancestral, fof).


Do u think its really necesary run propaganda in main deck?

It is, because they're incredible against all kinds of aggro decks (especially Goblins where they're a powerhouse), which are your worst matchups and against which you simply can't win without them. This card solely turns an UNWINNABLE match-up into something along the lines of 40%/60%.

It's also useful against Threshold aka the most played deck in the format, because they're used to function with very few lands in play, so if they have to spend two mana to attack with their Tarmogoyf, they've actually spent most of their turn's resources to do so. It's also useful against storm combo decks (stops EtW tokens), against dredge decks (stops Zombie tokens), against landstill (using 4 lands a turn just to deal 2 damage with a Mishra is, um, well, incredibly inefficient).

It's a MD card, at the very least as a 3-of, and more than likely as a 4-of, as its effect is cumulative.

Frid
06-22-2008, 12:45 PM
And what about ophidian vs ancestral visions?

I just tested the deck without mana leak and i didnt like it.... Maybe 4 counterspell 4 FOW 4 mana leak 3 spell snare? Not sure, should i cut the force spikes?

ParkerLewis
06-22-2008, 03:27 PM
And what about ophidian vs ancestral visions?

I just tested the deck without mana leak and i didnt like it.... Maybe 4 counterspell 4 FOW 4 mana leak 3 spell snare? Not sure, should i cut the force spikes?

It's too much. In any case, even if you added even more, you would't have the resources nor the simple possibility to use all of them / counter everything the opponent throws at you.

Past a given point, additional counterspells get useless. What you need is ways to deal with threats that have resolved : Shackles, Powder Keg. The list you gave had two of each, I'd add a third one for both of them.
(Propaganda relies on the same concept : how and why would you wear yourself out countering every threat when you can deal with all of them with a single permanent ?)

So, I'd say cut the spikes, cut the leaks, add the Shackles/Keg/Propagandas, and complete the possible left slots with additional Islands. You NEED a lot of mana to be able to operate (ie play spells) on your turn and still keep the opportunity to counter a dangerous spell from the opponent.

Alex "Sir Tech" Welp
06-22-2008, 03:30 PM
This is my first post, and also my thoughts on MUC in the current environment. I played in the GP Indy last saturday and piloted a MUC build, I finished 23 over all and my build is posted below.

Creatures:
1 Morphling
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Rainbow Efreet

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Counter Spell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Back to Basics
3 V. Shackles
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Powder Keg
2 Impulse
1 Meditate

Lands:
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Swamp
15 Island

SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 4 Faerie Macabe
SB: 4 Blue elemental blast
SB: 3 Hydroblast

Match 1: Loam
I ended up loosing this match, not surprising, as MUC has such a bad match vs it. However, I did win one game by keeping a Engineered Explosives in my hand and blew the board clear of terravor and country side crusher. Very disappointing start to the tourney.

Match 2: Zoo
Game 1. I locked the board down with Shackles and waited untill I got Oona, Queen of the Fae.
Game 2. He played 3 Vexing Shusher, I had blasts for two of them but couldn't find the third, my shackles got Krosan Gripped, and he won shortly after.
Game 3. I mulligan to six and loose to two vexing shusher.

At this point I was read to drop from the tourney and do something else but i pushed on.

Match 3: Fish
I never saw a aether vial, I simply took control of the board and won 2-0.

Match 4: Belcher
Easiest match so far that night and won very easily 2-0.

Match 5: Dreadnought Variant
His deck was very bizarre and focused on running large under costed creatures (including Hunted Horror), it was almost a rouge deck and I really don't know how to explain it. However, I did win the match 2-1.

Match 6: MUC
I was surprised that I ran into another MUC deck at the tournament however as we where both 3-2 at this point, I feel as though this was a good indicator of MUC in the current environment. We went to time (not surprising) and we drew.

Match 7: Canadian Thresh
I tested the thresh match a lot, and my build was optimized to beat it along with Combo.X This is why I main decked the 3 EE and 2 Powder Keg,
Game one: I shackled his goyf then eventually won with it.
Game two: I locked him under back to basics and propaganda. Waited until I drew Morphing, and then won the game.

After this tourney I think it is really telling that MUC has potential but is not the best deck to be running in the current environment. Furthermore, Myself and the only other MUC player (that I know of) where both 3-2-1 after six rounds.
I finished the tourney at 4-2-1

deadlock
06-22-2008, 05:41 PM
ParkerLewis thanks for answering the questions quite thoroughly.

I decided to go with 2 Propaganda maindeck, because they are not so good in some matchups (tendrils combo, decks with only few threats like black disruption, landstill etc) and i am already running many cmc 3 spells.

I am not saying that the version without Brainstorms is better, for that i havent done enough testing. I like to have 8 spells that give raw card advantage and my deck is redundant enough + i still have Impulse.
Its quite appealing to have the strongest possible manabase, being even Stifle immune.

Alex how do you liked Oona? It looks cool, but i dont know - i just like Morphling - saying gg against decks that dont pack mass removal.
What about Faeri Macabre? I dont think removing two cards is enough, especially against Ichorid and you cant even hardcast it. Its Needle proof though.

RogueMTG
06-22-2008, 06:02 PM
Pretty sure Faerie Macabre's ability is an activated ability, ergo: not needle proof.


01/06/2005 Pithing Needle affects cards regardless of what zone the card might be in. This includes cards in hand or in the graveyard as well as cards in play. For example, a player can't cycle Eternal Dragon or return an Eternal Dragon from his or her graveyard to hand if Pithing Needle naming Eternal Dragon has been played.

Illissius
06-22-2008, 06:03 PM
Its Needle proof though.

No it's not.

EDIT - feh.

deadlock
06-22-2008, 06:07 PM
Okay sorry my fault.
Makes it even worse.
At least the opponent may not see it coming ;)

idraleo
06-22-2008, 06:44 PM
It is surprising to saw people that is still playing graveyard hate on SB, it is useless against all decks, from dredge to loam to rock versions. This deck doesn' t need to get more advantage from those decks post sideboarding because they are all good mups indeed, and is ridiculous to saw the same stupid questions reposted every 2 new pages.

Frid
06-22-2008, 09:54 PM
Ive been testing the deck in mws tonight (If you played agains a boring MUC, sorry, it was me xD) i tried to put propaganda mainboard as lewis said, and i liked them, even more than back to basics that was a dead card several times (no problem in my deck, brainstorm + fetch is good, or pitching to fow).

I play 4 brainstorms and 3 impulses so i didnt feel i had to play with 3 of each, list is now:

Name Qty
Flooded Strand 3
Island 16
Polluted Delta 4
Morphling 2
Ancestral Vision 4
Back to Basics 2
Brainstorm 4
Counterspell 4
Fact or Fiction 3
Force of Will 4
Impulse 3
Mana Leak 3
Powder Keg 2
Propaganda 2
Spell Snare 2
Vedalken Shackles 2

I was playing till today a deck with 4 creatures with ophidian effect, but i decided to give a chance to ancestral visions and wow i just like them. 4 turns delay its not a big deal since u can stop the game with counters +b2b + vedalken and propaganda, what do u think at this point? should i run ancestral or phids?

idraleo
06-23-2008, 02:29 AM
Ive been testing the deck in mws tonight (If you played agains a boring MUC, sorry, it was me xD) i tried to put propaganda mainboard as lewis said, and i liked them, even more than back to basics that was a dead card several times (no problem in my deck, brainstorm + fetch is good, or pitching to fow).

I play 4 brainstorms and 3 impulses so i didnt feel i had to play with 3 of each, list is now:

Name Qty
Flooded Strand 3
Island 16
Polluted Delta 4
Morphling 2
Ancestral Vision 4
Back to Basics 2
Brainstorm 4
Counterspell 4
Fact or Fiction 3
Force of Will 4
Impulse 3
Mana Leak 3
Powder Keg 2
Propaganda 2
Spell Snare 2
Vedalken Shackles 2

I was playing till today a deck with 4 creatures with ophidian effect, but i decided to give a chance to ancestral visions and wow i just like them. 4 turns delay its not a big deal since u can stop the game with counters +b2b + vedalken and propaganda, what do u think at this point? should i run ancestral or phids?


Propaganda got to be 4 off or is far useless. Goblin and other aggro decks could get out from a single Propaganda but they scoops on the second one. Mana Leak is disgusting if you don' t play Wastelands and Stifles, and Spell Snare is more casual than other counters. Your version had problem to handle an opponent Counterbalance, you have no out from anything that comes into play that doesn' t attack you, and you' re in trouble to handle a single creature that get throught your counter effects and Propaganda.

ParkerLewis
06-23-2008, 06:55 AM
Propaganda got to be 4 off or is far useless. Goblin and other aggro decks could get out from a single Propaganda but they scoops on the second one. Mana Leak is disgusting if you don' t play Wastelands and Stifles, and Spell Snare is more casual than other counters. Your version had problem to handle an opponent Counterbalance, you have no out from anything that comes into play that doesn' t attack you, and you' re in trouble to handle a single creature that get throught your counter effects and Propaganda.

I agree (bascially as I already said before too). At least remove the 3*Mana Leak to up the Propaganda/Keg/Shackles count.

Thomas1991
06-23-2008, 02:45 PM
my list on the NK legacy holland

land
16 Island
3 Polluted Delta (top and brainstorm)
3 Flooded Strand (""")

3 Back to Basics (duh)
3 Vedalken Shackles (duh)
2 Morphling (a kill that can't be target)
3 Counterbalance (countering without losing cards. this thing is a card advantage engine with top. good agains almost everything.)
3 Sensei’s Divining Top (see counterbalance + it searches for stuff)
4 Brainstorm ( "one of" best card in legacy
4 Counterspell (duh)
4 Rune Snag (duh)
2 Fact or Fiction (cardadvantage is good)
4 Force of Will (duh)
3 Spell Snare (can be force spike but i prefer spellsnare because it's better late game.)
3 Impulse (digs for 4)


// sideboard
3 Powder Keg (agains mongoose enz)
1 Counterbalance (will be removed for peedle)
1 Sensei’s Divining Top (will be removed for peedle)
4 Tormod’s Crypt (loam decks?)
1 back to basics (will be removed for peedle)
1 Vedalken Shackles (aggro decks like goblins)
4 Hydroblast (vs goblins and fast decks that play red cards (combo, burn enz)
(next time i hope i can borror 3 pithing needles)

I ended 3-4 (with a 57 place of the 150 not bad for a 1th NK)

win agains:
43 land 2-0 (B2B en counter top vs the loam.)

Burn: 2-0 (counter top vs everything)

Meathooks: 2-1 (thanks to countertop and shackles.)

lost agains:
0-2 Solidarity,0-2 the only cards he was scared of where counterbalance and top.)

pikula: 2-1 (lot of discard enz, good player. lost because he played a shade with one swamp open and i mana leaked it (i should had counterspelled it) he playes D.ritual en beat me to death.

meathooks: 1-2close one, game one, counter top counters everything, game 2 he playes eather vial and get throug my counterbalance en played needle on schackles. game 3 a lot of counterwars get counter top en destroy his aether vial with powder keg. he destroy counterbalance and play en few slivers. i topdeck morphling which should had win the game if he had'nt topdecked a pithing needle on the next draw.

angel stax 1-2 (game 3 on the turn i was about to win with morphling i get a gameloss for forgetting his smokestack.) (stupid mistake)

ParkerLewis
06-23-2008, 03:35 PM
3 Counterbalance (countering without losing cards. this thing is a card advantage engine with top. good agains almost everything.)
3 Sensei’s Divining Top (see counterbalance + it searches for stuff)


Countertop is very good in legacy. But MUC is NOT the deck to abuse it. It's been discussed and discussed again before. There are better cards that help MUC fill the holes in its strategy - once again, Propaganda to name only one. How can you even expect to win against any kind of aggro with your build ?
How will Counterbalance help you against threats that are cheated into play with vial and/or lackey ? How do you fight manlands ? Those are your hard match-ups.

That's why Propaganda is an auto-include in the main as 3 or more commonly 4-of, and the Countertop engine isn't.

Bardo
06-23-2008, 07:12 PM
Closed. New thread here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10052