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Peter_Rotten
10-19-2006, 06:37 PM
Opening Post by Kadaj

Mono-Blue Control (or MUC) has been around since the fledgling days of magic, and it has almost always remained the same deck. Play tons of counters, draw a bunch of cards, stop your opponent from doing anything relevant, then kill him with a large finisher whether it be Stalking Stones and Rainbow Efreet, as Randy Beuler did way back when, or the much more modern Morphling and Meloku. More recently with the printing of cards like Fact or Fiction, Stifle, and Vedalken Shackles the deck has evolved to incorporate these new powerful cards and adapt to metagame around it.

When playing a modern version of MUC perhaps the most important thing to prioritize is land drops. Making your lands drops ensures that you will have enough mana to counter the relevant cards your opponent might attempt to resolve, as well as leaves you with the option to cast a draw spell at the end of your opponents turn. It is a combination of cheap, sometimes free, countermagic like Force of Will and Counterspell in addition to the card selection and drawing of Impulse and Fact or Fiction that keeps the deck ahead in the card advantage race, as well as the land race. If MUC can remain ahead in both races without falling too low with its life total it will almost certainly win the game.

MUC’s history in Legacy:

Initially when Legacy was created people predicted a combo winter not unlike the one that gripped Magic during Urza’s block. Combo decks would run rampant fueled by unbanned bombs like Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Burning Wish. Due to this, MUC was concieved as a possible answer to these supposedly broken decks, and was given a slight amount of attention. Of course, these decks never materialized as threats, and MUC was dropped by the wayside. Perhaps the biggest blow to MUC’s possible development in the format was the invention of Solidarity by David Gearheart (Deep6er). Due to Solidarity’s ability to go off in response to anything MUC could try to do MUC had, and still has, a horrible matchup against the deck that would slowly rise to the position of not only the best combo deck in Legacy, but perhaps the best deck period.

All but forgotten, it took until Eric McGraw piloted a traditional MUC deck to 21st place at the StarCityGames Duel for Duals tournament on July 9th, 2006 for the deck to get any attention. Here is the list he played that day:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian

Enchantments
2 Back To Basics

Instants
3 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

Basic Lands
11 Island

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Quicksand
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Chalice Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Back To Basics
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
1 Misdirection

Perhaps the most important thing to note with McGraw’s deck is the inclusion of maindeck Back to Basics, a card that wrecks a good portion of decks in Legacy and puts a lot of pressure on others. Still, even with this moderately high placing in a major tournament, MUC remained almost entirely unnoticed. It took a top 8 finish from a new pilot, Glenn Anderson (Maximus04), and another solid finish from Eric McGraw to put MUC truly back on the map.

Monoblue Control
A Legacy deck, by Glenn Anderson
5th place at a StarCityGames Duel for Duals tournament in Roanoke, Virginia, United States on 2006-10-08

Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian

Enchantments
2 Back To Basics

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Force Spike
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak

Lands
15 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Quicksand

Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Repeal

And here is McGraw’s 32nd place finishing deck:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian

Enchantments
2 Back To Basics

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Force Spike
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak

Basic Lands
16 Island

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Quicksand

Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
2 Repeal

Both decks are almost identical, with the only Maindeck differences being the Fetchlands used and the number of Quicksands, and the only Sideboard differences being the number of Hydroblasts versus the number of Blue Elemental Blasts. Even despite the relative success of this version of MUC, there remains much debate over what the correct decklist is. Having tested MUC for several months, this is my own take on the archetype:

Maindeck:

Artifacts:
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Powder Keg
3 Chrome Mox

Creatures:
3 Morphling

Enchantments:
3 Back to Basics

Instants:
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Rune Snag
2 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

Lands:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
16 Island

Sideboard:
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Repeal
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast

Matchup Analysis:

In general when playing MUC perhaps the most important thing to do is make your land drops. Making your first 4 or 5 land drops ensures you’ll have mana open to counter threats, draw cards, and eventually drop your finisher for the win. Fact or Fiction is perhaps the most important card to resolve for you, as it almost always nets at least a 3 for 1 and can easily fuel a game win if the card advantage you gain off of it is maintained. Obviously this plan has to be customized and adapted to each game, especially depending on what deck your opponent is playing.

Vs. Goblins, Unfavorable (35-65 to 40-60 preboard depending on the build, anywhere between 45-55 and 60-40 postboard depending on what’s in your board and how many REBs and Pyrostatic Pillars the goblins player can bring in).

First rule, and yes it is an obvious one, you MUST stop Goblin Lackey. It doesn’t matter whether you counter it, bounce it, block it, steal it, whatever, you absolutely cannot let it hit you. If you do, you will set yourself much too far behind in the race and have no chance to catch up. Another must counter, remove, bounce, whatever, is Aether Vial, which if allowed to become active will almost inevitably result in an uncounterable Ringleader giving the goblins player far too much card advantage for you to come back from.

Post board the match gets either much easier for you, if they don’t have much in the SB for you, or slightly better if the majority of their sideboard can come in and hurt you. Either way, you should be bringing in all of your BEBs/Hydroblasts as well as any other anti-creature tools you may have (Vedalken Shackles, Propaganda, whatever). If you’re going first in game 2 bringing in Chalice’s might be a good idea, as they can shut down all of the dangerous one drops in the Goblin player’s deck. If you can grab the advantage early by countering threats as well as dropping Shackles you should be able to pull it out.

Tips:
-If your hand does not have an answer to a turn 1 Lackey, it’s probably one to throw back unless you can accelerate into an early threat and don’t think your opponent has a dangerous hand.
-Forcing Goblins into the late game makes them much easier to handle, just keep their major threats off the board with countermagic, Shackles, Keg, and whatever else you may have, and make sure that no Goblin Ringleaders resolve. How you get to the late game depends on your hand, and your opponents plays.

Vs. Solidarity (Probably 20-80 preboard, maybe 35-65 at best postboard).

Solidarity is tailor made to beat the crap out of you, and there’s very little you can do about it, especially game one. Game two if you can resolve an early chalice for one and manage to resolve a Morphling you might have a chance, but beyond that your only chance is to pray your opponent either has a pathetic hand or sucks horribly at playing Solidarity. And we’re seeing less and less of the latter types of players, so that’s probably a forlorn hope.

Tips:
-Pray. Seriously, there’s no way in hell you’re going to win this match against a competent opponent with a remotely decent hand.

Vs. UGw, UGr, and UGrw Threshold (45-55 to 50-50 preboard depending on which version of Thresh, and anywhere from 45-55 to 55-45 postboard)

This match is essentially a coinflip that relies almost entirely on the playskill of the players involved and draws they get. If the Mono-Blue player can force through even one Fact or Fiction and make good use of it’s Powder Kegs he’ll likely pull out the win. If the Threshold player can avoid MUC’s limited removal and keep FoF from resolving he’ll likely win. There are a boatload of little things that can easily decide this game as well, such as whether or not Back to Basics resolves and whether or not the Threshold player can chain his or her cantrips together and keep the threats coming.

Postboard Chalice of the Void adds another bomb to the MUC player’s arsenal, and Pithing Needle is an excellent weapon for the Thresh player, but the basic dynamic remains the same.

Tips:
-Back to Basics is possibly your best weapon against Thresh game 1, as it often shuts down a large portion of their mana base and makes it much harder for them to play cantrips and continue to lay down threats.
-Blowing an early Powder Keg at one to clear away Mongeese is often the right play, you can force through a Shackles and steal anything else. Especially if you know they’ve boarded in Worship.
-Sometimes, depending on your hand, countering Thresh’s cantrips can be a good play, as it can often put them in topdeck mode and keep their threats light. Still, this can be risky depending on your own gas, and the makeup of your opponent’s hand. A high risk, high reward strategy.

Vs. IGGy-Pop (60-40 preboard, 65-35 to 70-30 postboard depending on what’s in the Iggy player’s sideboard)

You’re Mono-Blue. They’re non-instant speed storm combo. This matchup plays out like the combo vs. control matches of old with a few small nuances to keep in mind. If they start with Leyline in play you MUST counter Ill-Gotten Gains. Yes that’s obvious, but if by some chance you make a misplay and they resolve it in that situation you are almost guaranteed to lose the game. Still, even with that threat you have 16 counters for their combo pieces, and the card advantage tools to bury them once you’ve laid the proverbial trap.

Postboard you gain Tormod’s Crypt, which makes Ill-Gotten Gains much less effective in most cases, and Chalice of the Void, which if set early at one is an absolute bomb in this matchup. Conserve your counterspells for Ill-Gotten Gains, Intuition, and Infernal Tutor (with priority going from IGG forward) and this match should be pretty easy.

Tips:
-Don’t fall into the trap of countering the tutor if there’s a Leyline out and even a remote chance they might have IGG in hand. It WILL wreck you.
-If they start getting high in storm do not be afraid to counter their tutors, as a Tendrils would wreck you.

Some questions to get the ball rolling on discussion:

Chrome Mox? Hot or not?

Is Ophidian worth a slot in today’s metagame?

What’s the optimal draw suite? 4 Brainstorm, 3 Impulse, 3 Fact or Fiction? 4 Impulse 4 Fact or Fiction?

Morphling or Meloku? Should whatever the finisher is be a three of or a two of?

Kadaj
10-19-2006, 07:15 PM
Just a couple of things I didn't go over in that post. Although the matchups appear to be primarily coinflips or in your opponent's favor, the builds of MUC listed actually have good game against non-goblins aggro like Angel Stompy, and particularly any build of 3 color aggro. Shackles is a great tool, as is Powder Keg, and against 3 color aggro like Zoo you can lock them under a B2B and just counter everything of relevence, drop a Morphling and win. The biggest threat decks like that can offer up are things like Troll Ascetic, which the only way you have to get rid of it is by either countering it or blowing it up with a Keg when they don't have mana open.

MUC also has great matchups against most fast combo, as more often than not you'll have too much countermagic for just a duress to handle.

And a little revision that I missed when writing that post is the wording in the tips section for the IGGy matchup. Generally you don't want to counter the tutors they play unless they're getting up there in storm where they could just fetch tendrils and wreck you. The wording I used seemed kind of confusing, so I figured I'd clear that up before it became an issue.

Volt
10-19-2006, 07:20 PM
Great primer! I like the addition of Rune Snag in your build. A couple of comments/questions:

Chrome Mox seems not hot to me. Between FOW, Misdirection, and Chrome Mox, there are a lot of card disadvantage effects in this deck.

Why no Force Spikes in your build?

Kadaj
10-19-2006, 07:25 PM
I have a personal dislike of counters that become dead as you get deeper into a game, hence my adoption of Rune Snag over Mana Leak, and Force Spike is about as dead as it gets outside of the early game.

That's not to say it doesn't have applications. It can certainly be an effective answer to Goblin Lackey, which you can never have too many of, and it's a great tool to prevent falling too far behind against decks when drawing as opposed to playing.

It comes down to preference really, but Force Spike could easily replace Misdirection and/or Mana Leak in my build.

herbig
10-20-2006, 01:46 AM
I really like this deck and am impressed that it has done so well recently. I was wondering how well the deck handles an early rush of creatures, such as sligh/suicide type decks. Shackles seems necessary to overcome this, yet most builds run only two.

Chrome Mox seems good, getting counter magic up turn 1, serving the same role as Force Spike, and accelerating you into a faster FOF to make up for the card disadvantage.

How good is Powder Keg? I can see it being great for Vial, Needle, Mongoose and such.

Eldariel
10-20-2006, 10:06 AM
I'd absolutely add Disrupting Shoals and Chrome Moxes. Chrome Moxes remove the need for janky Force Spikes and Disrupting Shoal gives you more counters for Goblins' turn 1 plays as well as any average MU in mid- to lategame. You've got a nice spread of casting costs making Disrupting Shoal extremely castable and Chrome Mox just accelerates you into your drawspells. These cards did very well for me when I tested a MUC-build of my own, but it's worth noting that going down to mere 11 Islands is a bit annoying, since you really want to hit your landdrops way into the lategame. I personally feel happy starting to work on winning when I have about 8 mana available and enough business in hand. Then I can draw, counter and cast win conditions while not dropping the cover.

'Phid is a no-go in my opinion, it does very little against Goblins, Thres, Iggy and just about anything that's either fast or runs creatures, being only decent against Solidarity and even there only if you can drop it before they can go off. I'd go 3 Shackles over 3 Powder Kegs as you really want active Shackles against anything running creatures if you're planning on winning.

Doks
10-20-2006, 12:33 PM
What about Chalice of the Void MB?
I think it's a very viable inclusion because the only CC1 spell is Brainstorm.
Chalice 1 Stops so much annoying things and is very good against NQG with its cantripping.

And with Chalice, you can even think about Thirst for Knowledge in the Drawengine, because it just plunges later Moxen.

And I guess there have to be 2-3 Repeal as a MB Permanent Removal other than Keg, especially Pithing Needle.
A first on the Keg, a second on Our Finisher/Shackles and we a nearly weak at killing with a 3/3 or 2/4 without ability.
Bouncing Lackey is even just a good play.


So far,

Doks

Hoojo
10-20-2006, 02:43 PM
Does anyone know if there is a tournament report by Anderson or McGraw? I would really like to see how they played each match, etc.

I like the inclusion of Chrome Mox; like you said, it removes the necessity for 1cc counters. However, in testing your list, I have had a few issues with running out of cards in the early game. To alleviate this, I am testing Chalice main in the place of a Misdirection and the two Mana Leaks.

I'm back and forth on Ophidian; In a way, I've used it more as a wall that can draw a card every once in a while more than a draw engine. Right now I'm sticking with him, but I'm considering Spire Golem instead.

As for the draw suite, I don't like Brainstorm in a deck like this, but with five to six fetchlands, I think it deserves a place. With only four fetches, I wouldn't run it. Impulse is great, and I love Fact or Fiction at four. Really, it comes down to more counters or Brainstorm.

As for win conditions, running only two seems dangerous, and if I did, I would run the most protectable (i.e. Morphling.) I like Meloku, but not entirely sure how often I would use his ability.

Alfred
10-20-2006, 03:36 PM
I'm running a mono-blue Control list, and I really like you decision to run Chrome Mox. I too have been running Moxen as a way to accelerate into a turn 1 Counterspell, which I find is absolutely crucial, and the time when you should notice the card disadvantage is after you should be resolving Fact or Fiction, so it really makes little difference at all.

I also like the inclusion of Rune Snag, which I find to be the most powerful new counter to be printed in the past six or seven years (there is a case to be made for Daze I suppose). I think it's almost strictly better than Mana Leak, and that's saying something.

I'm a bit perplexed about two things however, one is the 2 Vedalken Shackles, which I believe is so good that more should be added, and the other is the inclusion of Morphling over Meloku. I find Meloku to be the better card in the current format so rife with creatures. It's fantastic against Grow, and also quite good against Goblins (Incinerator aside). It also almost singlehandedly wins the game against random aggro decks, something that Morphling can't attest to.

Other than that, great summary of MUC's strengths and weaknesses, although I still think that Solidarity is the best mono-blue control deck in the format, at least at this time.

Maximus04
10-20-2006, 03:45 PM
Excellent Primer, Eric and I our good friends and constantly are discussing new ideas with different decks.

MUC is an interesting deck and if anybody likes I will write a tournament report and discuss how i handled goblins, affinity, GUW Thresh and Solidarity.

Cards in Defense

Quicksand - Though some of you really dislike the idea of loosing this to a wasteland it really can help handle aggro decks. It can kill a Piledriver, Lackey(practically any goblin), Dark Confident, Meddling Mage, Werebear(before Thresh), Hounds(Savannah and Isamaru), Soltari Priest, and Silver Knight. The card is excellent and should be vigoroulsy playtested if you are in an aggro heavy format.

Ophidian - Many say hes out of date based that he dies to Chain, Bolt, Edict, STP. On the other hand, sometimes he is very useful just to establish the board and stall a turn while you get the cards you need to win. 4th Round against GUW Thresh i had two Ophidian on the board and the card adavantage that they gave to me helped me win that round. He should be playtested before you dismiss him.

Mophling vs Meloku - Meloku is the kind of card that can drastically change the game after he resolves and you untap him. Though he still can die VERY easily to STP which is heavily run in my format area. I choose morphling because he is practically unkillable(except Edict and the new Sudden cards). He can drastically turn the game around the turn you resolve him. I feel that his description as Superman fits the terms that you play him. There has not been a game when we have played with BBS that a Morphling has resolved and we havnt won.

Brainstorm - This card is the best 1 U Blue cantrip card(that is legal in the format). Its helps pull through your deck to get the needed land drops, the access card can be shuffled away due to the Fetchlands. Omitting this card from you deck is a serious mistake. Its very valuable early gane.

Up for Discussion

Chrome Mox - This card was not considered when we were tweaking the deck before the SCG D4D. It seem very ideal in this deck, though if you are going to run it. You will probably either have to cut Impulse or Ophidian.

Arcane Labrotory - This card is an excellent card to help balance the matchup against Solidarity and IggyPop. Its an ideal card to side in and take out the Back to Basics for game two and hopefully game three.

Propoganda - The card can stabalize the board against VERY quick aggro decks. Though Most aggro decks can just pay the mana for the creatures they really need to win. I dislike this card in the Sideboard since you have other ways to handle aggro.

It all really depends on the meta of the format that you are in to dictate your choices.

Kadaj
10-20-2006, 03:49 PM
Meloku, which I tested extensively, has been by far the worse card for MUC in my experience. It dies to almost every piece of removal played in Legacy, which Morphling is far and away immune to, and it kills slower than Morphling in general. MUC's danger zone against aggro is the first 5 or 6 turns, where neither Meloku nor Morphling does anything to help you, so Meloku doesn't even get the benefit of being able to help against aggro decks. It's just too slow and too vulnerable.

Shackles could easily be a three-of depending on what you expect to see in your metagame. The simple change from my build would be +1 Vedalken Shackles and -1 Back to Basics, with +1 Back to Basics and -1 Vedalken Shackles in the board. I choose to run two because this deck is very adept at finding them through Impulse and Fact or Fiction, and because in some matchups it's slightly undesireable.

I've tested Ophidian extensively as well, and the only situations where it's been remotely useful were when aggro decks had horrible draws and didn't lay down any creatures. It wasn't even all that effective as a blocker because it only has 1 power and doesn't trade with anything relevent.

Brainstorm I found strictly inferior to Impulse in this deck, simply because for me they both serve the same purpose. I want to dig aggresively for land drops in the early game, and without a fetchland Brainstorm is worse than Impulse for that purpose. I suppose it comes down to playstyle, but I've prefered Impulse and FoF as 4s to fitting in Brainstorm.

Pinder
10-20-2006, 04:11 PM
This might not be as much of an issue as it seems, but I figured I bring up some discussion on Pithing Needle. Does the fact that it singlehandedly kills Morphling to death come up at all? I realize that you have Powder Keg for the ones that hit early game and counters to keep late game ones from resolving, but how often does it become an issue? I bring it up simply because Needle opens Morphling up to StP, Bolt, Chain, Lightning Helix Terror, etc., etc. Needle is in most sideboards (and a few maindecks), and it seems like something you'd better be able to deal with consistently.

EDIT: Oh, and excellent Primer. It's certainly better than what I wrote :wink:.

Alfred
10-20-2006, 04:25 PM
Meloku, which I tested extensively, has been by far the worse card for MUC in my experience. It dies to almost every piece of removal played in Legacy, which Morphling is far and away immune to, and it kills slower than Morphling in general. MUC's danger zone against aggro is the first 5 or 6 turns, where neither Meloku nor Morphling does anything to help you, so Meloku doesn't even get the benefit of being able to help against aggro decks. It's just too slow and too vulnerable.

Meloku does die to most targetted removal, save lightning bolt etc. But the fact is is that you are running tons of countermagic. I think that it's ability to totally take over the game after it resolves is much better than Morphling's "Can't be Targetted" ability. Also, as for it being slow, I actually find that it is faster than Morphling, because Morphling tops out at 5 damage per turn, while Meloku can do far more damage than that over the course of the game.


Shackles could easily be a three-of depending on what you expect to see in your metagame. The simple change from my build would be +1 Vedalken Shackles and -1 Back to Basics, with +1 Back to Basics and -1 Vedalken Shackles in the board. I choose to run two because this deck is very adept at finding them through Impulse and Fact or Fiction, and because in some matchups it's slightly undesireable.

I would suggest doing this. Shackles, unlike Back to Basics, are not useless in multiples, and against aggro decks, you most definately want to see them early and often. With only 2 in the deck, I think that you can have a very difficult time finding them even with the average amount of search this deck has available to it.


Brainstorm I found strictly inferior to Impulse in this deck, simply because for me they both serve the same purpose. I want to dig aggresively for land drops in the early game, and without a fetchland Brainstorm is worse than Impulse for that purpose. I suppose it comes down to playstyle, but I've prefered Impulse and FoF as 4s to fitting in Brainstorm.

I didn't even realize that you were running Impulse over Brainstorm, because I guess I didn't look closely enough, or just assumed that it was in there, due to it being one of the best cards in the format. I like Impulse, but when you are running 6 fetchlands (1 too many I think), there is absolutely no reason whatsoever not to run Brainstorm over Impulse. Brainstorm + Fetchlands is a more powerful effect than Impulse, and it costs half as much.

The costing half as much part is crucial when you realize that you want to leave mana open to counter things. This is much easier with Brainstorm, and many times you don't have to pick and choose between countering something and drawing some cards. Also, in the instance where you don't have a Chrome Mox in hand, Brainstorm is an incredible first turn play.

There are just too many reasons for running Brainstorm over Impulse not to include it.

Kadaj
10-20-2006, 04:54 PM
I agree Brainstorm is objectively a better card than Impulse, but I also believe that it's not nearly as good in this deck as it seems. As a first turn play with a fetchland upcoming it's great, and with Chrome Mox plays like Brainstorm + Fetchland on turn 1 become available, and those are obviously strong plays. However, this deck is based upon redundancy of cards and strategies, and more often than not Brainstorm is inefficient at digging for cards without a fetchland. So many times in testing I would hit a clump of cards that I just didn't want with Brainstorm and also lacked a shuffle effect to move myself past this clump. Impulse is a champ at moving past sections of cards you don't want, as well as still getting you the best card from the bunch.

Also, the beauty of this deck is the ability to be flexible with what it can do in response to an opponent's action, or lack thereof. For instance, you have two islands untapped on your opponents turn with a Counterspell and Impulse in hand. You have the option of countering his play if it's a major threat or letting it resolve and using Impulse to optimize your hand. Brainstorm or whatever other draw you might be running in that slot work the same way, so no matter what the build that function remains open. Unless you have three mana open, at which point you should probably be playing something proactive anyway depending on your build, Brainstorm remains functionally the same as Impulse in this instance.

I will say that my choice of Impulse over Brainstorm is not the end all be all way to run MUC, and that running Brainstorm could hardly be called a mistake. I just feel that its instances of inefficiency and the ability to free up two slots by cutting it (cut 4 Brainstorms, add the fourth Impulse and the fourth Fact or Fiction) outweighed the benefits of running it. Which, while solid, are not so overwhelming as to be an absolute must for this deck.

Meloku can indeed take over a game, but in my testing it was often useless because my opponent would have STP, Lightning Bolt and a Mogg Fanatic, REB, Vindicate, or whatever other piece of removal in their hand, and I would be unable to save him due to either a lack of countermagic in my hand or a critical mass of removal that they had in their hand because it would be otherwise dead against me. Meloku is certainly not unplayable though, I just found him to be far too vulnerable and Morphling's ability to dodge removal, as well as untap and block (which is something that often goes overlooked) makes it effective enough to warrant the slot in my build.

Pithing Needle is a major weakness for any finisher you decide to run, and if set to your finisher could be a major roadblock. However, there are several other great Needle targets in this deck (Shackles and Keg for example) so often those will draw the first Needle and by the time the second comes up you'll have countermagic ready to stop it, or a Keg to blow it up.

Thanks for the compliment Pinder, but don't sell yourself short. Your primer was awesome too.

Pinder
10-20-2006, 07:01 PM
Pithing Needle is a major weakness for any finisher you decide to run, and if set to your finisher could be a major roadblock. However, there are several other great Needle targets in this deck (Shackles and Keg for example) so often those will draw the first Needle and by the time the second comes up you'll have countermagic ready to stop it, or a Keg to blow it up.

Thanks for the compliment Pinder, but don't sell yourself short. Your primer was awesome too.

Those are good points. I suppose Needling a single target against you, even if it is your finisher, probably won't hurt too much given the other stuff the deck can do. Heaven help you if they needle Morphling, Keg, Shackles, and Meloku, though :wink:.

And thanks for your compliment, too. But before we start a 'no, you rock', 'no, you rock' sort of thing I think it would be best if the two of us safely agreed that we both kick tons of ass :tongue:.

EDIT:

So, due to some rather convincing PMs from a certain fellow Sliver enthusiast, I realize that I'm taking certain credits that aren't entirely mine. I wish to make sure that Volt's (fairly monumental) contributions to the CounterSliver primer do not go unnoticed (or unspoken). While the matchup analyses were certainly a collaborative effort (and the portion I worked on most), the entire opening history, as well as the card choices, were his doing. They were solid in the first draft he sent me, and I never really looked back. Given that, I can safely say that roughly 2/3 of the primer was his doing. So there you have it.

I still contend that I kick ass, though :tongue:.

Now back to your regularly scheduled mono-blue control deck.

Barsoom
10-21-2006, 08:35 AM
MUC is an interesting deck and if anybody likes I will write a tournament report and discuss how i handled goblins, affinity, GUW Thresh and Solidarity.


Yes this is a very good idea cause many players still think that you had luck vs this decks. Lol. Show them the power of Mono-Blue!!! :tongue:

Poron
10-21-2006, 12:21 PM
I love blue and mono-blue but I would never play this kind of deck without some bounce for enchantments and strange permanents...

imho Echoing Truth is a good choice

Vervamon
10-21-2006, 06:37 PM
Hi,

Interesting thread. I tinkered with MUC a while ago, and discovered the following.

- Too many counters are not that good. You need other types of answers.

- Fast aggro decks are a hard to handle, in fact the early game is critical, and you can easily be overwhelmed.

- You cannot be totally reactive as sitting there and waiting for something to counter is a losing strategy. You should be able to play threats too.

In testing, I lowered the amount of counters to 9/10, played with 3 Shackles to grab creatures, added my own creatures, on top of the kills, such as Spiketail Hatchling, Spire Golem (true, he is not that good even when played for free) or Serendib Efreet (he is more than OK I think), added Propagandas to slow down enemy hordes, and also maindecked extra solutions, namely bounces (Echoing Truth) and annoyances (Stifle, even monocolored decks play fetchlands nowadays).
Otherwise, Ophidian looks like outdated tech to me. It is a 1/3 for 3 that does nothing against any of the commonly played creatures in the game. It is slow, comes online on turn 3 or 4 (depending whether you play moxes or not) and needs to deal damage to net you a card... In a creature-ridden format, this does not look too good I say.
Aside from that I favor Force Spike over Daze as this deck, as was previously said by other posters, does not want to miss the first land drops.
Finally, 2 Psionic Blasts proved worthy too, often used to kill an annoying beater, or finish off an unsuspecting (now that it has been timeshifted, they may think about it though) opponent.

Thanks for reading this bunch of comments. Hope this helps you finetune MUC.

troopatroop
10-21-2006, 07:54 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't run MUC without Rainbow Efreet, or splash white for Decree of Justice. If you don't play a completely removal immune win condition, you might as well just play stasis and go to time.

This is of course, only my oppinion. Rainbow Efreet is the nuts against so many decks now that humility is non existant and board sweepers are common.

Cavius The Great
10-21-2006, 07:56 PM
This might not be as much of an issue as it seems, but I figured I bring up some discussion on Pithing Needle. Does the fact that it singlehandedly kills Morphling to death come up at all?

How on earth is that an issue? It doesn't kill Morphling, it's still a 3/3 beater. By the time you establish board control, a 3/3 vanilla beater is probably all that you would need to win the game.

Pinder
10-21-2006, 08:33 PM
How on earth is that an issue? It doesn't kill Morphling, it's still a 3/3 beater. By the time you establish board control, a 3/3 vanilla beater is probably all that you would need to win the game.

I'm sorry, I misspoke (typed?). Pithing Needle doesn't kill Morphling, but it makes it not so immune to everything that does kill it (Swords, Lightning Bolt, etc.). If a deck can't answer a 3/3 vanilla in Legacy, chances are it's not that viable anyway.

herbig
10-21-2006, 08:44 PM
Rainbow Efreet is the nuts against so many decks now that humility is non existant and board sweepers are common.

I agree and have been playing him in Morphling's place on workstation. Efreet is so incredibly hard to kill. Morphling may be much faster, but by the time you're ready to win they can lay down tons of removal and overwhelm you. Against decks without creatures to grab control of, this is a problem.

Tao
10-21-2006, 08:56 PM
I wrote this before and somehow it is away.

- Phyrexian Ironfoot is about a bazillion times better than Ophidian. Ophidian sucks. It is bad. Ironfoot can be easily supported with Snow lands. It is a great blocker wihout a drawback in the early game, it blocks away Mongeese and kills every Goblin in combat. It also survives Bolt. If you established some control and build up a Mana base he is an extremely efficient beater with Vigilance.

- Play 2-3 Repeal maindeck. Sometimes it is the perfect solution for problematic cards like Lightning Rift, Aether Vial and Pithing Needle and the other times it is an absolutely solid card without any card disadvantage.

Alfred
10-21-2006, 09:07 PM
I wrote this before and somehow it is away.

- Phyrexian Ironfoot is about a bazillion times better than Ophidian. Ophidian sucks. It is bad. Ironfoot can be easily supported with Snow lands. It is a great blocker wihout a drawback in the early game, it blocks away Mongeese and kills every Goblin in combat. It also survives Bolt. If you established some control and build up a Mana base he is an extremely efficient beater with Vigilance.

- Play 2-3 Repeal maindeck. Sometimes it is the perfect solution for problematic cards like Lightning Rift, Aether Vial and Pithing Needle and the other times it is an absolutely solid card without any card disadvantage.

I think I'm starting to come around the the Repeal idea more and more. It's such an effective card to have a few of in a deck, and I'm absolutely loving it in standard, so I guess I'm going to have to try it here in this MUC deck. It answers every permanent, and cantrips. Loving it.

I really like Ironfoot, but I'm guessing it's going to be pretty average in a MUC deck. I hate the fact that it requires an upekeep if you want to use it as pressure, especially against other control decks. It is a fine wall though, and gets a lot better later in the game. I'm neither here nor there on it, and I'm sure that it would be better served as something else.

Doks
10-22-2006, 07:24 AM
- Too many counters are not that good. You need other types of answers.


Would you count Chalice of the Void as such an answer?
This deck is predestinated for Chalice at one, Mainboard of course.




- Play 2-3 Repeal maindeck. Sometimes it is the perfect solution for problematic cards like Lightning Rift, Aether Vial and Pithing Needle and the other times it is an absolutely solid card without any card disadvantage.


QFT.

With Chrome Mox it can even be 1st turn answer to lackey on the draw.


What about the draw?
Brainstorm/Impulse/TfK/FoF/Accu-Intu are all hot candidates.
What compilation do you feel comfortable with?
In addtion, i guess the land count is a not unimportant fact to answer this.

Cavius The Great
10-22-2006, 07:40 AM
I'm sorry, I misspoke (typed?). Pithing Needle doesn't kill Morphling, but it makes it not so immune to everything that does kill it (Swords, Lightning Bolt, etc.). If a deck can't answer a 3/3 vanilla in Legacy, chances are it's not that viable anyway.

That's what counters are for. If you can't counter the first Needle then counter anything targeting the Morphling. Plus it's a basically a 2 for 1 deal making your opponent lose card advantage.

Vervamon
10-22-2006, 10:31 AM
Hi !

@ Doks

They sure are candidates. I can see two options here. Either maximize your cantrips, such as Repeal or Trickbind (instead of Stifle), and only make use of a "light" draw engine. Or play standard solutions, and rely on "bigger" draw spells.

Brainstorm although quite potent, may lack the critical number of shuffle effects in such a deck to really shine, unless you are at least running fetchlands, and I am not even sure running 5 fetches will be enough. The best spell for that deck would probably be Skeletal Scrying (your grave should fill up quickly, and the ability to refill your hand with life and used cards at instant speed looks invaluable to me). Unfortunately it is black... Maybe a light splash should be considered ? I do not really know...

Anyway, I am almost convinced though that the deck will have a hard time supporting Intuition + AK since it takes so many slots.

I would do the following.
Brainstorms (card quality) + Fetchlands (5 ?) + black splash for Skeletal Scrying (card quantity), on top of a few cantrips (Repeal seems like a good candidate as was said earlier by previous posters. I would also try Trickbind although it looks inferior to Stifle) and would definitely consider Impulse.
Fact Or Fiction, at 3U, looks too expensive to me.

As for Chalice, depends what it shuts down on your side of the board. If you cannot Stifle or Brainstorm anymore, it could be a liability...

Possible decklist, based on what was previously said.

MUC - Legacy

14 Islands
4 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

23 Lands

3 Serendib Efreet
2 Morphling
3 Vedalken Shackles

8 "Creatures"

4 Counterspell
4 Force Of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Skeletal Scrying
3 Force Spike
3 Stifle
3 Repeal
3 Propaganda
2 Psionic Blast

29 Spells

Kadaj
10-22-2006, 10:58 AM
I would do the following.
Brainstorms (card quality) + Fetchlands (5 ?) + black splash for Skeletal Scrying (card quantity), on top of a few cantrips (Repeal seems like a good candidate as was said earlier by previous posters. I would also try Trickbind although it looks inferior to Stifle) and would definitely consider Impulse.
Fact Or Fiction, at 3U, looks too expensive to me.

Fact or Fiction is the one card that makes this deck tick. Cutting it is a HUGE mistake. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that not running 4 is a mistake. Skeletal Scrying takes far too long to work to any real extent, and giving up life to draw cards is exactly what this deck does not need. Why not just play Stroke of Genius or Braingeyser if you wanted an X draw spell anyway? Although this is also a lesser factor, Skeletal Scrying lacks synergy with Rune Snag, and you should almost definately be running 4 Rune Snags in this deck.

If you're running less counterspells this is the draw base I'd run:

X4 Fact or Fiction
X3 Brainstorm (Plus 5 or 6 fetchlands)
X4 Impulse

If you're running the full 16 counterspells you have a few options. You can go with my build and cut Brainstorm, or you can instead run something like this:

X3 Fact or Fiction
X3 Brainstorm
X3 Impulse

Intution and AK take up far too many slots and don't do anything that this deck already can't do by just running Fact or Fiction, which as I said earlier is a card you absolutely must be running. Another direction for this deck to go in might be predicated on dropping Chalice for one early one and cutting Brainstorm to make itself entirely immune to it. Obviously it'll need to be tested, but I think that idea has some validity to it.

Regarding your list specifically, that list looks like it would lose ground in the Gro matchup and not really gain any ground anywhere else. It has less counters for the Combo matchup, not enough creatures to make the Solidarity matchup any better, and it lacks Back to Basics which is such a huge trump over so many decks that it almost singlehandedly makes quite a few matchups positive. Splashing is a possible route, but I also doubt any advantages you'd gain by splashing for a card like Skeletal Scrying, which isn't even that good, outweigh the advantages of being to play Back to Basics and running Fact or Fiction instead of Scrying, which you should be doing anyway.

Benie Bederios
10-22-2006, 02:14 PM
Hello,

I was the other guy that would write a primer for the deck, but had to go on a bussiness trip and couldn't work on it. But I mostly agree with the primer. I only do play Brainstorm and play Chalice of the Void MD.

I chose to play Brainstorm, because it really shines, when you don't have a Mox. It allows you to keep manaweaker hands. I do play 6 fetchlands to support it. I run it next to Impulse and Fact or Fiction though.

I chose to run Chalice of the Void, the moment I chose Chrome Mox as acc. The chance of a T1 Chalice for 1 is huge. Even a slower Chalice helps preboard in beating Iggy and Solidarity. I cut counters for it and at the moment I only run 12( Force of Will, Counterspell and Mana Leak( I don't have Rune Snag.) Chalice counts as counterspell 13 to 15.

I dropped at this moment Ophidian from the list, but do sometimes mis a recurring drawengine, if only Library was legal.

BB

Lanfeng
10-22-2006, 03:52 PM
One thing I was wondering was whether or not forbid would still be relevant, its interaction with ophidian still exists and it can lock the game down. I don't know for sure because I haven't tested it, just throwing that out there. Its a silly idea but it really can be used in interaction with arcane lab if you want to be rediculous.

Another thing I would like to add is that stifle seems really relevant in the current format since it has a target against every deck and in the case that it is less useful it will still have a use game one and then be boarded out if needed. For the most part you will always be able to taget a fetch.

@Morphling vs. Meloku: Although you can protect Meloku with your counters the difference is that Morphling generates virtual card advantage forcing all removal into dead cards, Meloku doesn't do this, you have to 1 for 1 to protect Meloku, Morphling 0 for 1s against removal.

@Repeal, this sounds like a really good idea, repeal generates a lot of tempo especially casted on the end step or when your opponent is tapped out, it should definitly be considered in MUC

@# of Shackles: Sure shackles is a relevant card but running more then two starts getting worse, being stuck with shackles early game is just terrible, you have to wait till turn 3 to cast it, and even then it is only relevant turn four. In fact I think running propaganda main would be a better idea because it takes effect immediately before the MUC player dies

@Force Spike: Force spike seems to be a very relevant card, it is almost always useful up to the first 4 turns against goblins, and at worst it can be pitched to fow, sure its worse late game but extras can also be removed to chrome mox.

Vervamon
10-22-2006, 05:04 PM
Hi !

@Lanfeng

I am in line with your ideas. By the way, the number of Shackles is totally metagame dependant. Mine is full of aggro, so 3 looked like the right number. Of course 2 in a varied metagame is probably better (I never face combo decks). Maybe Propaganda + Back to Basics, instead of Shackles + Propaganda could be considered depending on the meta as they also play nice together.

@Kadaj

I am sorry I have to disagree with you, based on my past experiences, in both T1, and Legacy.

In T1, I do play a single FOF, and often found myself unwilling to cast it because of it is cost. And I think it says a lot in a format with tons of acceleration and fast mana. The investment is huge, even for type 1. FOF although powerful, is not as gamebreaking as Gifts Ungiven for example. Some people already cut it from their Control Slaver lists, replacing it with the more easily abusable Memory Jar.

Back to legacy : since you do not have too many threats, you play answers, and the problem is, at least to me, that keeping 4 mana open to play an end of turn FOF is not that easy, when you are almost guaranteed to have something else to do each turn, be it counter something, bounce something, or play a Propaganda to slow down those weenie hordes... The point is FOF is not good early game, and unfortunately that is this deck weak point. The reason I favor Skeletal Scrying over FOF is that it can be modular. You can dig for 1/2 early game, and then late game, when you have stabilized, draw like 5/6 cards, and go for the kill.
The two replacement candidates you mentioned are unfortunately too slow (Stroke costs at least 4... Braingeyser is a sorcery) to be really helpful.

As for Skeletal Scrying and Rune Snag, I do not think that is an issue, it is quite easy to let key cards in your graveyard while you remove the others, even early in the game (Force Spike and Fetches will go to fuel your Scrying, while Rune Snags are left in the graveyard).

To sum it up, FOF certainly is good, but does not help that deck early game, and without fast mana, is rather hard to cast.

I will test the deck again this week with a friend, and will let you know the results.

Doks
10-22-2006, 05:11 PM
@# of Shackles: Sure shackles is a relevant card but running more then two starts getting worse, being stuck with shackles early game is just terrible, you have to wait till turn 3 to cast it, and even then it is only relevant turn four. In fact I think running propaganda main would be a better idea because it takes effect immediately before the MUC player dies


And this is the reason for me to play Thirst for Knowledge (with 3-4 CotV MB):
Discarding one of that many artifacts in a paying way is just strong.
With a lower landcount of 22 CC3 ist just more payable.

My Drawengine:

3 Impulse
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction

No Brainstorm 'cause of Chalice 1.

But after some testing today I find out that you just need Brainstorm for those "manaweaker" hands and early CQ.
At least, pitching it to Chrome Mox/FoW or discarding it with TfK makes sure it is not completely dead with Chalice 1 on the board.


Greetz,

Doks

Kadaj
10-22-2006, 05:16 PM
If you've been unwilling to play a FoF in Vintage because if it's cost then I don't know what to tell you. FoF is so broken in Vintage because of that mana accelleration you mentioned. BBS with 4 Facts was so broken because it could have Morphling AND Fact or Fiction up by as early as turn 3. Obviously in Legacy that doesn't matter, but you have Impulse and Brainstorm to fill the role Skeletal Scrying would in the early game, and believe me Brainstorm + Fetchland is much better than Scrying for 2 cards. That's coming from someone who doesn't even run Brainstorm in his build.

If anything, it sounds like you're not playing this deck properly. You don't NEED to counter everything. You only counter the actual threats. If your opponent lays down a Silver Knight on an empty and you have the option of countering it or playing EOT FoF there's no contest, absolutely go with Fact. Second, the other major reason why Skeletal Scrying is totally unviable in this deck is because it's black. It forces you to splash, which opens you up to wasteland, and most of all it cuts off your ability to use the absolutely game-breaking Back to Basics. This might be the most important point of all. This deck should be making it's first 5 or 6 land drops. If you can't cast FoF with 6 lands in play then I don't know what to tell you.

You have plenty of answers for threats and not all of them are counterspells. Vedalken Shackles and Powder Keg do a good job of leaving you with that flexibility to play EOT FoF. And seriously, Scrying has the same problem as Fact in the scenarios you've described. It costs the same amount of mana to net worthwhile card advangtage (B3 to draw 3, which nets you plus 2 cards) and in that case why wouldn't you just play FoF and leave open the possibility of getting a 4 for 1? Sure you can Scrying for 5 or 6, but by the time you get that far into the game you should just drop Morphling and win anyway.

If you want more early game flexibility with your card drawing play 4 Impulse 4 Brainstorm and 3 Fact or Fiction. Or work in any number of other viable blue card drawing spells for that matter, they'll all do what Scrying does without opening you up to wasteland and ruining your ability to play B2B.

Lanfeng
10-23-2006, 08:42 PM
looking at the draw engine of the deck, I would shy away from running a set of brainstorms + a set of impulses, In fact I might even opt to run neither, the big problem that ails blue based control is falling behind in the card advantage race, I like the better capabilities of tfk and FoF mainly because it generates card advantage, you have inevitability but you gotta keep down the initial onslaught and since counters are just constant 1 for 1s you have to be able to get ahead and stay ahead with the 1 for 1s, early game flexibility is great but you want to live so that you overwhelm your opponent, trading 1 for 1 in card advantage while not removing threats is not great, thirst for knowledge seems like a good way to fight this.

edit: Accumulated knowledge would be good since you are gonna drive into the late game and accumulated knowledge is CA after the first, it doesn't combat the problem about how slow this deck is but it is an Idea

Benie Bederios
10-24-2006, 05:12 PM
I think there is no one who really ones to loose Fact or Fiction. But you need cardquality in the beginning, what if you are stuck on 2/3 lands and unable to FoF. You need the digging of Impulse and maybe brainstorm. Also Impulse allows you to play a split of 2/2/2 of Kegs, B2Bs and Shackles.

Thirst for Knowledge isn't that great. I was often forced to pitch 2 cards, because I didn't want to loose Shackles. You can't really run much Artifactlands, because it does'n's work well with B2B, opens you to wasteland and makes your Shackles worse.

You've answered your question about Accumulated Knowledge. It's nice, but doesn't help the early game.

Doks
10-24-2006, 06:31 PM
Well, TfK ist just good in combination with Chalice and Moxen MB.
Otherwise it is like you claimed: discarding 2 cards...
But in this deck this does not hurt that much because there is always sth. in your hand you don't need in a certain situation.
TfK, if not providing cardadvantage, provides CQ at least.

The problem of Impulse is that it gets weaker in the mid-lategame where TfK/FoF are much better imho as you have the mana to cast them.
So Impulse as a 4-off is not that good I guess; 3 should do a good job, even if I am testing at the moment without early CQ.


Doks

Maximus04
10-25-2006, 02:32 PM
Doks is right, You should only run TfK if you are MB Moxen and Chalice. If you are MB chalice then brainstorm becomes irrevelant. Three Impulse and three FoF is the way to go. Though a possibility is Gifts Ungiven since it can garantee you atleast 2 cards you want. Its an idea worth testing.

Accum Knowledge does not work, yeah its awesome late game, but i rather cast a FoF late game. If i can get two FoF to hit, i will not usually loose the game.

Splashing for Skeletal Scrying is not a good idea, if you want to run it in Duck Hunt, then yes but THIS IS MONO BLUE CONTROL. You also dont usually want to loose life either, since you tend to win around 5 to 6 life against aggro decks. Back to Basics is far better overall in shutting down GUW and Affinity than extra draw from Skeletal.

Doks
10-25-2006, 05:28 PM
After some testing, i find out following:

CotV MB is just a bomb:

NQG dies if it can't cantrip - they can just throw their CC1 spells into it to reach threshold - without any effect for us ending up into huge advantage - even late game Mongoose isn't relevant anymore.
There Removal for our Superman (-> Swords/Bolt) is no problem anylonger, but the most important thing is that their cantripengine is just shut down.
In combination with TfK and the other artifacts there is a strong drawengine.

Against Combo CotV MB gives us a much better chance:

- Solidarity: Without their High Tide they are slown extremly. But now the Cunning Wishes have become a Mustcounter because of Time Spiral's Wipe Away.
- Chalice 0 against Gamekeeper-Combo is just great ;)
- Burn is much better to handle with Chalice 1.

I've got a question - how do you side against Goblins and NQG?

Goblins usually I side Chalice out to follow the 6 BEB/Hydroblast plan used in Germany since a few month.
The problem is that Gobbos is one of the worse MUs.
Chalice is good against Lackey/Vial/Fanatics, but you lack that removal for the early Rush - I'm completely indeterminded.

For NQG, I just try to fit in the 3rd B2B for 1 Repeal. That's all. :/

Any Suggestions?



Doks

Aggro_zombies
10-25-2006, 05:38 PM
I'm not sure if this has been discussed or not, but...has anyone considered the Counterbalance Spell Denial Engine (tm) for this deck? It would let you run fewer counters and make you less vulnerable to being slowplayed by combo, and you already run Brainstorm so all you'd have to add is Top and maybe Scroll Rack.

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

iOWN
10-25-2006, 06:53 PM
I'm not sure if this has been discussed or not, but...has anyone considered the Counterbalance Spell Denial Engine (tm) for this deck? It would let you run fewer counters and make you less vulnerable to being slowplayed by combo, and you already run Brainstorm so all you'd have to add is Top and maybe Scroll Rack.

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

Awesome.

I've been testing out a version of MUC with the Top/Snow Sheets engine (which seems to be kind of good) and I think that Counterbalance would be really efficient in it.

// Lands
14 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
2 [CS] Mouth of Ronom

// Creatures
3 [US] Morphling
2 [AN] Serendib Djinn

// Spells
4 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [LG] Psychic Purge
3 [A] Psionic Blast
2 [MM] Misdirection
4 [CS] Rune Snag
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [GP] Repeal
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [SH] Mana Leak
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor

(Yes, Top is the only cantrip because even though you have a consistent land base, the mana is being eaten way too much to support FoF, and Brainstorm would make 12 1cc spells with Chalice, which is not cool.)

It could probably replace the Rune Snags or something. So there are 11 total 1cc, 12 2cc, 6 3cc, 2 4cc, 9 5cc, so it could work! It would also let me cut something like Cunning Wish for Tangle Wire and maybe even Choking Tethers so there's a chance against Goblins...

C.P.
10-31-2006, 01:23 PM
Awesome.

I've been testing out a version of MUC with the Top/Snow Sheets engine (which seems to be kind of good) and I think that Counterbalance would be really efficient in it.

(.....)

It could probably replace the Rune Snags or something. So there are 11 total 1cc, 12 2cc, 6 3cc, 2 4cc, 9 5cc, so it could work! It would also let me cut something like Cunning Wish for Tangle Wire and maybe even Choking Tethers so there's a chance against Goblins...

How does your deck deal with goblins or other aggros? Goblins are not slow enough to lock up with counterbalance lock.
To me, cunning wish toolbox looks really slow, and you don't have much utillity cards on the sideboard to make it shine. I'm also aginst the idea of playing Mouth of Ronom and Psiblast, since it looks too slow to me. Quicksand, while it is limited, is much better solution against aggro.


Maybe this deck is just better off with Mono blue standstill variant with snow engine, runnig crusible + manland as a primary defence line?

Tao
10-31-2006, 03:11 PM
I made a similar deck. here is the Link:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4178&

The snow engine is very strong and Phyrexian Ironfoot is an absolute bomb in the deck and in the format. Counterbalance is also very strong with BS and Divining Top.

This is the list:

// Lands
16 [IA] Snow-Covered Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
4 [CS] Phyrexian Ironfoot
2 [UD] Masticore

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [u] Counterspell
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [7E] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [u] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare

iOWN
10-31-2006, 04:06 PM
How does your deck deal with goblins or other aggros? Goblins are not slow enough to lock up with counterbalance lock.
To me, cunning wish toolbox looks really slow, and you don't have much utillity cards on the sideboard to make it shine. I'm also aginst the idea of playing Mouth of Ronom and Psiblast, since it looks too slow to me. Quicksand, while it is limited, is much better solution against aggro.


Maybe this deck is just better off with Mono blue standstill variant with snow engine, runnig crusible + manland as a primary defence line?


Well the Goblin match isn't great, but considering there are 16 removalish slots, it's a little better than traditional MUC.

Quicksand is suboptimal as it costs land drops, which you can't really afford (with an additional con of sucking outside of WW Variants and Goblins, since it can't do shit against FS and is pretty terrible against anykind of larger beatdown or 5/3esque decks). Mouth of Ronom is a little slow, but is a Snow Land and produces Snow Mana, so it's still worth two slots. Psionic Blast is not slow; it costs three mana to pretty much kill any creature. Furthermore it's instant speed, so you can still keep mana open for Counters/Bluffs and only use it when needed.

@Tao: Ironfoot does look nice, especially as a snow creature, but is it really effective without any kind of sweeper? (It seems like it would be tough to push damage through without some kind of evasion.)

Edit - @CP: Welcome to the Source!

C.P.
11-01-2006, 10:02 AM
Well the Goblin match isn't great, but considering there are 16 removalish slots, it's a little better than traditional MUC.

Quicksand is suboptimal as it costs land drops, which you can't really afford (with an additional con of sucking outside of WW Variants and Goblins, since it can't do shit against FS and is pretty terrible against anykind of larger beatdown or 5/3esque decks). Mouth of Ronom is a little slow, but is a Snow Land and produces Snow Mana, so it's still worth two slots. Psionic Blast is not slow; it costs three mana to pretty much kill any creature. Furthermore it's instant speed, so you can still keep mana open for Counters/Bluffs and only use it when needed.

@Tao: Ironfoot does look nice, especially as a snow creature, but is it really effective without any kind of sweeper? (It seems like it would be tough to push damage through without some kind of evasion.)

Edit - @CP: Welcome to the Source!

Thanks iOWN, I'm sure I'll have fun time in the source.:smile:

About Quicksand, I do admit that it sucks, and cost of and land drop is no small matter. However, there is no other substitution when it comes to dealing with lackys or piledriver, in my opinion. psiblast, while it is an amazing card, I think you can put other means of creature control, such as verdalken shakles. I know that psiblst is more versatile, being able to be a 4 dmg to the head, but it does not generate card advatage.

About ironfoot, I'm not too sure whether it is worth a slot.perhaps shakles is better card in terms of advatage and board control? Ironfoot does not prevent goblins from build up more than enough goblins and attack for one lethal assult. Same thing goes for WW or other winnie decks.

Cait_Sith
11-01-2006, 11:08 AM
Double posts do suck C.P.
I am wondering about people's thougts on SB Teferi? He can hose Solidarity on resolution, piss off Spring Tide slightly, mirror, what mirror?, and he does it all at instant speed. Legacy seems a bad place to maindeck him given his price, but kudos to you if you can do it. He is expensive but once resolved he is a nasty piece of work to deal with.
I know he isn't too impressive for the aggro match up, but hey, we can't do everything. Unless...

Super Vindicate 2UWB
Choose one- counter target spell; counter target activated ability; counter target triggered ability; or destroy target permanent.

Other than that I still think Teferi should be a 1-2 of in the SB for Combo, but mostly Control.

C.P.
11-01-2006, 01:18 PM
Double posts do suck C.P.
I am wondering about people's thougts on SB Teferi? He can hose Solidarity on resolution, piss off Spring Tide slightly, mirror, what mirror?, and he does it all at instant speed. Legacy seems a bad place to maindeck him given his price, but kudos to you if you can do it. He is expensive but once resolved he is a nasty piece of work to deal with.
I know he isn't too impressive for the aggro match up, but hey, we can't do everything. Unless...

Super Vindicate 2UWB
Choose one- counter target spell; counter target activated ability; counter target triggered ability; or destroy target permanent.

Other than that I still think Teferi should be a 1-2 of in the SB for Combo, but mostly Control.

I was actually trying 4 on the board.

It is impressive against Solidarity. Turn 5 teferi at end of their turn means much easier game. They cannot go off (not on turn 5) in respose to it, and all they have for countering it is force and remand, meaning you can manage to win the counter war in most cases.

He is 7 turn clock(usually 6), and all your craetures are instant, meaning ophidians are much better with teferi. Teferi is slow answer because of his casting cost, so I think he needs some kind of backup.

In any case, he is a really big help.

Tao
11-01-2006, 01:47 PM
@Tao: Ironfoot does look nice, especially as a snow creature, but is it really effective without any kind of sweeper? (It seems like it would be tough to push damage through without some kind of evasion.)

Maybe you can replace the Masticores with Morphling if you want a big threat with Evasion that is hard to kill. But I don't think that you need it too often because you already have Shackles that can dominate the Board.

Ironfoot is more than just a finisher. It is a brilliant defensive creature that beats every Goblin, Mongoose and many creatures that Aggro decks play. 3 Mana is amazing for a creature without a real drawback in a Monoblue deck.

iOWN
11-01-2006, 02:49 PM
I actually did try out 1 Teferi in the place of a Morphling, but I just didn't like it. Even with Top, he just seems so useless with a low number of creatures, and Chalice just seems like more effective hate.

A better way to improve the game against Solidarity is to actually have some kind of clock. That was my reason for running Djinn; a four turn clock with evasion for four mana is nuts, and his drawback isn't really TERRIBLE, at least when you have something like Top or Scrying Sheets fueling it.

3 Phyrexian Ironfoot
3 Serendib Efreet
2 Serendib Djinn
1 Morphling

4 Top
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
3 Psiblast
3 Psychic Purge
4 Repeal
2 Nev's Disk

4 Chrome Mox (?)
3 Scrying Sheets
2 Mouth of Ronom
13 Snow-Covered Island


Although it is starting to look a little more like aggro-control with cheaper creatures, I think it gives it a little more pressure.

A problem with Top I've been having is that the deck still runs out of gas (barring the top three of your library) so I wanted to add a couple of FoF, I just can't seem to find room.

C.P.
11-01-2006, 09:26 PM
I'm sticking to the control build and trying to look for some kind of answer. In that case, teferi is pretty good.

Running 1 is not an answer, since you have to cast it early. clock idea is nice, and you might be able to manage that with transformational sideboard, but I still prefer the teferi + something idea since that allows me to have answers for other decks in SB.

@iOWN: I do agree that your build is better off with a clock, but I think it is not an MUC anymore in strict scence. Your deck looks more like Turbo Xerox now.

Lanfeng
11-05-2006, 03:41 AM
teferi is indeed hawt cause it means you commit 0 mana, I'm gonna try work 2 into the main, see how that goes

C.P.
11-05-2006, 11:04 AM
@Lanfeng

I'm sticking to the build with 2 morphling and 4 Ophidians, and that build does not have slot for teferi in main. Nor I think teferi would be good in main.

Teferi is hot, but the format is all about creatures. If landstill or other blue control was big, then it is another matter...but as it is right now, I see no reason to maindeck teferi.

How ever, I hope to see some interesting tweaks with teferi...Like scepterchant + teferi... Have fun toying with him.:smile:

Vamore
11-14-2006, 10:09 PM
So, I'm new to these Forums, but not to Legacy, and certainly not to MUC. Anyway, I wanted to get gauge of how effective Ophidian is in today's environment. I personally like him still, and play with 4x in my build. But, there are MANY times when he becomes a liability, and sometimes wish he was a draw spell. Ophidian? Yay or nay? Or is it still one of those "personal preference" cards?

Also, I like the Force Spike over the Moxen. You could make the argument that mid-late game, topdecking a Force Spike sucks. But, the same could be said about topdecking a Chrome Mox late game. But, Force Spike can be pitched to Force of Will and Misdirection, Chrome Mox can't (and we don't run enough artifacts to truly support T4K, so I don't buy into that argument). Also, Force Spike makes your opponent wary of casting stuff when you have ONE blue mana available, thus shifting tempo in your favor. Both cards are meant for the early game, and I feel as though Force Spike is just flat out better. It's effectiveness isn't contigent upon another mandatory card in your hand and it can be pitched to FoW and MisD.

The only problem I see MUC having is early game creature control. If your opponent is on the play and drops a 1st turn Lackey, and you don't have FoW, it's GGPO. Same with other crazy early game creatures. Sure, we have Shackles and Keg, but those take 3-4 turns to get online, and by then, it might be too late. Quicksand? Awesome. But what does it do against utility creatures that don't have to attack to be effective? I'm talking about Mage, Confidant, True Believer, Mother of Runes, etc... What bounce should we play, if any? Chain of Vapor?

atv
11-15-2006, 12:41 AM
Has anyone done extensive testing with Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top?

Counterbalance should work okay with Brainstorm too.

Lanfeng
11-15-2006, 01:14 AM
What bounce should we play, if any? Chain of Vapor?

Repeal, I tooled repeal into my build and it was just amazing, at the end of turn when your opponent has commit something to the board, also committing mana, you simply cast repeal, cantrip off of it, draw the card for the turn and next turn when your opponnet must once again commit his mana you can counter, effectively just destroying any tempo your opponent had, this works against aggro control a lot, a little less so with the balls to the walls aggro though, but running repeal mainboard was the win.

Vamore
11-15-2006, 10:23 AM
Honestly, for bounce to be any good in today's environment, I think the spell has to 2cc or less. 3cc bounce spells, while extremely powerful (Capsize, Wipe Away, etc) are just too slow and ineffective to deal with a 1st turn Lackey/Mother of Runes/etc, or 2nd turn Mage/Confidant/etc. I think Echoing Truth, Repeal, and Chain of Vapor are worth considering, everything else is too slow.

Repeal is interesting. It has that oh-so-sexy cantrip effect, plus the standard instant speed. And if you're on the play, Repeal is great. But if you're on the draw, it loses a lot of it's effectiveness. Cuz if they're on the play, and they drop Mountain, Lackey/Vial, how is Repeal going to help recover? They'll still get a 2nd Goblin into play before you have enough mana to bounce the Lackey. And sometimes, Lackey just needs to hit once for them to sink you.

With Chain of Vapor, regardless of who was on the play, it'll help you hold off the Goblin beasting, and buy you an extra turn to drop that important 2nd Island. When they try to re-cast whatever you bounced, you'll have 2 untapped Islands available to you. The loss of the cantrip ability is janky, but outside of Repeal, how many general bounce spells have cantrip effect?

I'd personally rather have CoV, to deal with threats regardless of who played first, rather than playing a potentially better bounce spell (cantrip), but who's effectiveness is conditional (play or draw, plus it could become mana-intensive mid-late game).

However, I will test Repeal in my deck. Like I said, I see the potential, but I also see it's effectiveness being very conditional.

Doks
11-15-2006, 10:45 AM
@ Vamore:

Not enough artifacts for T4K?

3-4 Chalice, 2-3 Kegs, 2-3 Vedalken Shackles, 3-4 Moxen = 10-14 Artifacts that shoud really be enough.

Otherwise, I'd prefer Disrupting Shoal.
With MUCs spreaded Mana Curve X = 1 or 2 should be playable and it just counters those 1/2 CC threads in the lategame, even with hardcast =P - and this unconditional.

CoV loses effectivness as you drop the bombs like Chalice/Keg/Shackles.
A returned Mox even hurts...


Doks

C.P.
11-15-2006, 04:14 PM
So, I'm new to these Forums, but not to Legacy, and certainly not to MUC. Anyway, I wanted to get gauge of how effective Ophidian is in today's environment. I personally like him still, and play with 4x in my build. But, there are MANY times when he becomes a liability, and sometimes wish he was a draw spell. Ophidian? Yay or nay? Or is it still one of those "personal preference" cards?

(....)

Quicksand? Awesome. But what does it do against utility creatures that don't have to attack to be effective? I'm talking about Mage, Confidant, True Believer, Mother of Runes, etc... What bounce should we play, if any? Chain of Vapor?

Hello Vamore, I'm new here, too.:smile:

Anyway, I've been doing testing on ophidian, and I found them crucial to deck. The reasons are:

1. There no other drawing engine in blue that does not require mana investment, yet fairly cheap to play.

This is why I don't like artifact creatures like the Ironfoot. This deck needs card advantage like no one's business, and no other blue creature can do this job with 3cc.


2. If you play draw spell there are times that you wish it was a blocker instead.

It does not kill 2 toughness creatures, but it handles atttckers, giving you few turns. Ophidian's spot is only meant for cearture. Fore same reasont, Old MUC's had things like Steel Golem. Replacing him with a non-creature spell is VERY BAD idea.

I agree with you on the mox. This deck hates card disadvatage. force spike is dead after turn 4, but running 1 forbid in main makes thing little better.

It is true that blue needs early creature control badly, but 5 BEBs + 4 FOW + 2 needle is enough to compensate for the lack of early game control against gobbos.

About the bouce, repeal is my choice, as it does not provide card disadvatage and everthig you'd want to bounce mostly cost 1 or 2 anyway. Chain is a bad idea, since your opponent can bouce things like shakles or keg with counter. Echoing truth is not bad, and deserves a try. Mother of runes was never a serious problem for me, since all your creature controls are colourless(quicksand, shakles). about the mage, well, 3rd keg on the SB? A singe engineered explosive as a needle hoser also works, too.

Vamore
11-15-2006, 04:20 PM
@ Vamore:

Not enough artifacts for T4K?

3-4 Chalice, 2-3 Kegs, 2-3 Vedalken Shackles, 3-4 Moxen = 10-14 Artifacts that shoud really be enough.

Otherwise, I'd prefer Disrupting Shoal.
With MUCs spreaded Mana Curve X = 1 or 2 should be playable and it just counters those 1/2 CC threads in the lategame, even with hardcast =P - and this unconditional.

CoV loses effectivness as you drop the bombs like Chalice/Keg/Shackles.
A returned Mox even hurts...


Doks

You artifact count is assuming that CotV and Chrome Mox should be maindecked, which recent tournament results prove otherwise. Also, ditching a Mox or CotV for T4K doesn't hurt too much at most stages in the game, but in today's environment, is ditching your only early-midgame ways to control the board (Keg/Shackles) a good idea? If you're in the position to ditch a Keg/Shackles without a second thought, you've probably already gained control of the game (translation: you already won). If not, then you really can't afford to ditch a Keg/Shackles, the only cards that can actually help you recover from an aggro overload, just for drawing more cards that don't deal with the resolved, immediate threats.

Also, I was going off the assumption that CotV and Chrome Mox weren't in the maindeck, therefore, making CoV a lot better. Also, if your opponent really wants to sac a land (thus, losing tempo) just to get rid of a Mox, then it's a fairly even trade. Besides, I thought it was already established we needed bounce for early game recovery (1-2 turn). Of all the options that I feel were viable (2cc or less) for early game recovery from a resolved threat, CoV was more effective and less conditional that Repeal.

That is my stance on the CotV/Chrome Mox mindeck inclusion and the CoV vs. Repeal choice.

What about Ophidian? Can MUC really afford this guy? 3 mana used during your own turn. That right there is unattractive. However, having a 1/3 body is pretty darn good in today's environment, considering most creatures are 2/*. At the very least, Ophidian will buy you a couple turns, and if he lives long enough, will draw you a couple cards. I'm still undecided though. He feels slow, old, and a bit outdated. I could be 100% wrong, but the alternatives are faster, cheaper draw spells, or playing with more 4x ofs. I no longer feel as though he's effective. I took him out as of now.

Doks
11-15-2006, 04:44 PM
Well Vamore, my assumption was that T4K is just good with that Moxen/CotV MB.
Otherwise you're right, it wouldn't make that sense.
As the discussion started, i just thought we're talking about a version where the thirst is useful, so it was just a misunderstanding. ;)

I don't think Ophidian is a viable Choice anymore, espacially the argument it was a good blocker is not very strong.
Important Creatures kill Ophidian - and blocking makes you not draw cards.
For blocking, you coud better play Wall of Air ;)


Doks

Vamore
11-15-2006, 05:44 PM
Well Vamore, my assumption was that T4K is just good with that Moxen/CotV MB.
Otherwise you're right, it wouldn't make that sense.
As the discussion started, i just thought we're talking about a version where the thirst is useful, so it was just a misunderstanding. ;)

I don't think Ophidian is a viable Choice anymore, espacially the argument it was a good blocker is not very strong.
Important Creatures kill Ophidian - and blocking makes you not draw cards.
For blocking, you coud better play Wall of Air ;)


Doks

Yes, if Cotv and Chrome Mox are maindecked, then T4K would be viable. But what does CotV really do? I mean, I know what it does, but what threats are you looking to cut off by playing CotV? Are the threats worth tapping out on your turn? Are the threats that CotV would handle worth the re-structuring of half of the traditional MUC build? btw, I'm using the recent tournament builds as traditional, until tournament proven otherwise.

Chrome Mox. Awesome. On the play, there's nothing better than Island, Chrome Mox, Go. However, with Chrome Mox, Force of Will, MD/SB Misdirection, T4K in certain situations (even if CotV is in), don't you think that we're running abit too much card disadvantage, even for Blue to handle?

The obvious reasoning for Chrome Mox would be to have it online by turn 1-2. Same reasoning for playing Force Spike, for the 1-2 turns of the game. However, Force Spike can be pitched to FoW/MisD, while Chrome Mox would be pitched to T4K (if CotV is included), but would be another permanent for you to have on the board (regardless of CoV inclusion, getting your permanents wiped off by Deed, random Disenchant, etc. sucks). I, personally, feel as though Force Spike is better in more situations than Chrome Mox. Having the possibilty of 1st turn UU available is tempting, but not at the expense of possibly cutting lands for it to fit (making Shackles a bit less effective in the early game), or even sitting with it in your hand mid-late game with no effective outlet to play it/pitch it.

However, I will play a bit more with the CotV/Chrome Mox/T4K build. It seems interesting, but there are some definite fundamental differences between this artifact heavy build, and the traditional tournament builds.

C.P.
11-15-2006, 07:58 PM
Well Vamore, my assumption was that T4K is just good with that Moxen/CotV MB.
Otherwise you're right, it wouldn't make that sense.
As the discussion started, i just thought we're talking about a version where the thirst is useful, so it was just a misunderstanding. ;)

I don't think Ophidian is a viable Choice anymore, espacially the argument it was a good blocker is not very strong.
Important Creatures kill Ophidian - and blocking makes you not draw cards.
For blocking, you coud better play Wall of Air ;)


Doks

Ophdian's not your best bocker nor best draw engine. but it does both, and that is why I think ophi deseves its slot. There are no other blue card that does both as efficiently as ophidian.

To be fair, ophidian is suboptimal in draw or combat, but MUC needs a slot that does both at the same time.

Vamore
11-15-2006, 08:23 PM
I never thought of Ophidian like that. I mean, I technically have thought of the snake in that function, but not in depth. But, does his suboptimal function warrant tapping 3 mana on your turn? This is a big commitment (tapping out on turn 3), and in Legacy, the fundamental turn is usually turn 3-4. If you wait until turn 5 to drop a Phid (with 2 mana open to counter), then you're sacrificing major tempo, just for the potential of having a suboptimal creature serve two functions.

Maximus04
11-15-2006, 08:45 PM
MUC has the possibility of going into two different styles. The new CotV/Mox/TfK build or the tradition Ophid build. I played the tradition Ophid build at the last D4D in Virginia. Ophid was a liability. Yes, he is great when you can get him out and protect him, that rarely happened, but between StP, Bolt, and Chain He rarely lived to give me the advantage. Having a blocker is great, but truth be known he doesn't stabilize the board most games. He was at most a dead draw or a stalling block for a Shackles/Keg/Morphling.

If you want to try the traditional build try the Shoal, its a good card.

Repeal is better than Chain if, i noticed myself constantly siding in the card against aggro. It was vital card that helped me top 8. Chain just has the possibility of too much unknown negative results. As a control players, do you really want to be at the mercy of the other players with ONE OF YOUR SPELLS?

Doks
11-16-2006, 01:10 PM
I say Repeal is better, too.

Another not pointed out argument yet is that every dangerous permanent has not a higher CC than 2/3 (Lackey, Werebear, Vial, Worm Tokens, Mongrels, Jitte, Confidant).
Even random decks with their Moxen and Scepter just run into Repeal, causing very huge card advantage.


Doks

Vamore
11-16-2006, 02:11 PM
I say Repeal is better, too.

Another not pointed out argument yet is that every dangerous permanent has not a higher CC than 2/3 (Lackey, Werebear, Vial, Worm Tokens, Mongrels, Jitte, Confidant).
Even random decks with their Moxen and Scepter just run into Repeal, causing very huge card advantage.


Doks

If you're playing with the Chrome Mox build, I can see how Repeal would be amazing. Again, it's already been established that the reason we need bounce is to deal with resolved early threats (1-2 turns). But, for Repeal to bounce a 1cc threat, you need two mana available. That's not going to happen if you were on the draw, unless you play a Island + Chrome Mox on one turn. Then you have hope.

You cite Lackey as being an early threat that must be dealt with if resolved, as did I. However, please explain to me what you are going to do with a Repeal if you were on the draw, and you just had a standard Land/Spell hand (no Moxen)? Your opponent on the play and dropping a 1st turn Lackey/Vial is a very real situation where Repeal does absolutely nothing to help you. And expect to see this happen alot (the number of Goblin decks being played, plus the sheer % of them having a 1cc threat in their opening hand, most assuredly after they mulligan to get a 1cc threat in hand).

My thing is, bounce is needed for turn 1-2 resolved threats that (a.) you didn't have enough UU available to use a counter, (b.) must be dealt with immediately (ie: before the resolved threat becomes active). Repeal does not solve the problem of early game threats (especially if you're on the draw), and is quite mana intensive to deal with mid-late game threats (tapping 4 mana to bounce a 3cc threat, even if it is at EOT seems like mana that could've been spent on an EOT FoF).

Although, you both are making some good arguments, I fail to see how Repeal > CoV in the early game, and if you're on the draw (traditional build).

I can definitely see how Repeal >>> CoV if you're playing the artifact build, no question.

C.P.
11-16-2006, 03:47 PM
If you're playing with the Chrome Mox build, I can see how Repeal would be amazing. Again, it's already been established that the reason we need bounce is to deal with resolved early threats (1-2 turns). But, for Repeal to bounce a 1cc threat, you need two mana available.

(...)

Although, you both are making some good arguments, I fail to see how Repeal > CoV in the early game, and if you're on the draw (traditional build).

I can definitely see how Repeal >>> CoV if you're playing the artifact build, no question.

Early game bounce is bad. You need other means of board control. First turn lacky can be dealt with BEB, and turn 1 vial can be dealt with a needle. Chain of vapour is not very necessary.

The strength of repeal is that it is also good in the late game. Chain of vapour is cheap, but it is as dead as force spike in the mid game. It give the opponents a chance of bouncing your threats(which you cannot counter), such as opidian, shakles, B2B or keg(with counter). turn 1 lackey is certainly very annoying, but 5(or more if you really hate gobbos) BEB is better answer than Chain of vapour in every way.

I've been playing the traditional build (based on the D4D top 8 build) with some tweaks of my own, and my understanding on the deck is that your opponents will have bunch of lands that they will not need after you survive first 10 turns (and you reach 6 or more land). The chain is essentially dead on that kind of situation (even more than force spike), knowing how this deck relys on permernats for the board control.

repeal is a perfect answer for ether vial as well. I personally hate the vial more than lackey when I'm playing this deck. and the situations that you would want the chain more than repeal is limited. Unless you're facing turn 1 lackey, repeal is almost always better choice. As I said before, this deck hates card disadvantage, no matter how you look at it.

Doks
11-16-2006, 04:08 PM
Against Vial, the standard hand without Moxen Repeal is even stronger as you can bounce it early eot and then counter.
That's absolute no argument against Repeal.

The Lackey thing you are right - without Mox Repeal comes too late.
But I think it's acceptable to take this problem.
How does CoV work on this?
I think following:

Goblin: 1st Turn Land, Lackey (assumption you don't have the force)
You: Land, go
Goblin: Land, Attack
You: CoV the Lackey
Goblin: Replay Lackey

At that point, I don't see what's the advantage of CoV.
Your giving Mana and a card for buying time you cant effectivly use as you must let the Lackey resolve a second time...

Btw the Goblin-MU preboard does not look that good.
They are able to beat you even without that first turn Lackey.
In any other situation, Repeal is 100% better than CoV.


As a new food for thought:

What do you guys think about Spell Snare and Annul as a 2-of in the MB or 3-4 in the SB?


Doks

Vamore
11-16-2006, 04:14 PM
This is assuming Game 1, so no sideboard cards (BEB) discussion yet.

I guess we have to iron out our fundamental differences in bounce necessity. For me, I'm focusing on bounce to help me out in the very early stages of the game (turn 1 specifically, maybe turn 2), which will solidify our mid-late game control. You're focusing on the effectiveness of mid-late game bounce, without regard to the ultra-crucial early game. I mean, we already have plenty of mid-late game answers w/ plenty of instant draw spells to find them. What we don't have is enough early game answers to resolved threats.

My stance is, if your opponent is in a position where he's resolving mid-late game threats, forcing you to bounce them, then you are not in control of the game, your opponent is. If you are in such a position, you have to ask yourself how you got there. The only thing proceeding the mid-late game stage is the early game stage. Also, mid-late game, getting a CoV bounced back to your permanents would suck, but what are they going to be casting mid-late game, that would require you to bounce it, that you couldn't just counter it/Keg it/Shackle it/Quicksand it/etc.

Which brings me back to my point. We should be focusing on early game bounce, so that the mid-late game doesn't slip out of your control. And if we are to focus on the early game, we should tune our deck so that regardless of who's on the play/draw, MUC will prevail/recover from your opponent's resolved 1st turn lethal threat.

Bounce, to me, is necessary maindeck because you will not always have a FoW in your early game hand, and Force Spike (assuming traditional build) is hit or miss.

@ Doks -

I'd play with Disrupt maindeck before considering Annul or Spell Snare, but that's just me.

Doks
11-16-2006, 05:19 PM
Where did I talk about SB?
I just said that our pre-board game is not very good.



For me, I'm focusing on bounce to help me out in the very early stages of the game


Well, Repeal is even that early bounce.
Against Threshold, a 2nd/3rd turn untreshed bounced werebear is not late, right?
Against Gobbo, as I posted, CoV is not better than Repeal against a Lackey when they are on the play.
Then:
One can't bounce Piledriver.
Guess no one would like to return Matrone.
Ringleader the same.
SGC too.

Shackles then becomes useless when you play CoV; whereas it is one of your strongest cards against Goblins.




My stance is, if your opponent is in a position where he's resolving mid-late game threats, forcing you to bounce them, then you are not in control of the game, your opponent is


What definition do you have about control?
I don't think that it is defined by countering every single spell the opponent plays.

I really do understand what you mean - but I don't think that CoV does this job better.
It is just comfortable not to have that late-game Vial/Needle countered as you can wait, repeal and then blow it up with Keg than wasting a counter on it.
In this way, Repeal more or less helps you to establish control.
It's awesome to have more options combined with cantripping.


Disrupt is not that good in Legacy as it does not what other 1CC/free counters like Daze and Force Spike do:
Counter a first turn Vial/Lackey/Mongoose.

But I see Annul a very interesting Choice.
Spell Snare may be good in the SB.


Wish you a good night, here in Germany its time to sleep ;)

Doks

C.P.
11-16-2006, 07:30 PM
Just to straight things out, let me post how I look things in MUC. It looks like we have fundimental difference in how MUC should work.

In my opinion, this is how a game works for MUC(assuming traditional build). Any disageement is welcome.

1. Early stage: This is before you establish 2 island. on the draw, this is where you lose the game to first turn threat. On maindeck, force spike and force of will is your strongest card of this phase. The cards that can ruin you on this stage are goblin lackey, ether vial, sinkhole(assuming you're on draw), hymn and others. 1 on 1, or 2 on 1 exchange is required for the threats.

2. Early-midgame: Now you start to use your 2cc counters. trading 1 on 1 and absorb some damage from their attacker is what happens here. This stage ends when they are out of gas and cards in there hand is low. You want at least 4 land by the end of this stage.

3. Midgame: This starts with your establishment of board control. Shakles or keg with approperate number will do the job. Then you play FoF/Ophidain to gain card advantage and charge up. Your Mana leak/Force spike gets worse from this stage. Sometimes you do not see the board control and forced to play the early morphling. Against fish or thresh, early morphling is quite good once you get it active. You shold have 6-8 land by this stage.

4. Mid-lategame: If you're playing against goblins, only thing you're afraid of in this stage is ringleader or seige-gang. Against thresh or fish, forbid is your best friend(I play a single copy). This ends if you get ophidian active or play morpling.

5. Lategame: Against aggro, If you're here, the chances are you win the game. Against aggro-control, you prorobably win the game. against control, do you have your B2B or morphling out?

In my opinion, maintaining control is keeping the threats that you cannot deal with out of the board and get my own threats on the board. This does not mean that you have to counter every single spell. Ol' superman is so good that he can win over the large army as long as you're not getting overruned by it.

Well, This is how I see the game. I'm pretty tired right now, so there might be some mistakes. You're welcome to point out the errors that might be there.:smile:

About some dispute:

Spell snare - I don't like the card. It sounds good, but force spike or disrupt will do a better job in most cases. Anull is very intersting indeed, but not a maindeck material, I think.

Rune snag vs Mana leak - Mana leak is better on early/mid stage, which is MUC's biggest weakness. Rune snag is better once you reached midgame, but sometimes the difference between 2 and 3 decides whether you have midgame or not. Rune snag also takes away sideboard flexiblity, since you always want to play 4.

Forbid - Maindecking a single copy is quite nice. Any opinion?

Maindeck bounce - First, I was wondering what do you take out for the maindeck bounce. I just don't seem to find the spot.:confused: As doks pointed out, earlygame bounce is not always the best solution, since you'll have to get rid of the threat sooner or later. The problem about the chain of vapor is that it is too conditional on the most occation. Sometimes you want midgame bounce, and chain just sucks at that. Card disadvantage is something to think about as well.

Ophidian - If you don't like him, what do you run instead?

Doks
11-17-2006, 09:10 AM
Ophidian is a big part of the traditional build.
In the "modern" version I play Repeal/TfK in those slots.
To make room for the rest a lowered the Manacount to 22-24 what is enough with all that draw since you reach 3 Mana for the Thirst which usually shows up with the 4th Manasource.



1. Early stage: This is before you establish 2 island. on the draw, this is where you lose the game to first turn threat. On maindeck, force spike and force of will is your strongest card of this phase. The cards that can ruin you on this stage are goblin lackey, ether vial, sinkhole(assuming you're on draw), hymn and others. 1 on 1, or 2 on 1 exchange is required for the threats.

2. Early-midgame: Now you start to use your 2cc counters. trading 1 on 1 and absorb some damage from their attacker is what happens here. This stage ends when they are out of gas and cards in there hand is low. You want at least 4 land by the end of this stage.


Good description, but there I see the problem that when you strengthen the early game you weaken the late game (Snag vs. Leak e.g.).
I mean, for sure i'ts fatal to be hit by those turn1 bombs but many you can handle in the next few turns (Mongoose -> Keg, Vial -> Repeal).
On the other hand, them having their 4-of bomb like Lackey is the same chance as you to have the FoW.

to be continued, must go now...

//EDIT: Here comes the rest:

I really see the problem, but being weak in the first few turns is a typical illness of blue =/
To improve that problem effective we needed to splash a color - what makes us losing Wastelandimmunity and B2B.
Otherwise, we need to find an answer in blue.
Even Force Spike is worthless when we are on the draw and opponent drops Lackey.
The only solution that is weaker on the draw with bombs like lackey, but is a viable solution to others like Vial/Needle/Werebear, is Repeal.


Doks

mikekelley
11-17-2006, 09:48 AM
What about running a few merchant scrolls in the deck? If you are low on counter magic you can fix that up in a pinch with that card. Or if you need a snap to deal with a pesky creature or something that they just layed down and you missed. I know the build doesn't run either of those...but it could work.

Granted, merchant scroll isn't instant speed. Meh

C.P.
11-17-2006, 10:10 AM
@ Doks - Well, The early game is important since there are chances that you won't get to lategame if you screw it up. leak is not impressive in the lategame, and that is why my 4th mana leak is forbid. Forbid solves any problem with dead cards and sometims turns into a hard lock in control matchup with ophi. In my opinion, you have to concentrate on surviving early game in current meta.

@mikekelly - You said it, it is a socery. This deck wants to avoid socery speed spell as much as possible. And any kind of tutor(including wishboard) is just way too slow to survive the earlygame.

//some more to Doks
Repeal, while it is versatile answer for the threats it does not get rid of the threat, which is a big factor(any bounce had that kind of problem, for that matter). you are required to bounce and counter and that mana/tempo commitment is just huge. Quicksand is pretty viable option for lacky, while I admit losing a land is not vary nice. Repeal, while it is an amazing card, It is as weak as force spike when you're on draw.

Doks
11-17-2006, 12:00 PM
Well, the Scroll has a nice function, but, as you said, it's a sorcery...

The "bounce and counter" is a very commom strategy for MUC.
I mean, you play tons of countermagic, why not use it for that?
But sometimes you can handle the replayed thing with Shackles/Keg which is even a often used way.


Doks

Vamore
11-17-2006, 12:10 PM
I feel we're really getting somewhere with this discussion. Good work guys. :smile:

@Doks-

The sideboard thing was directed at C.P., sorry if I didn't make that clear. C.P. mentioned dealing with resolved threats with Needle and BEB (both SB cards).

@C.P.-

I totally agree about BEB/Hydroblast and Needle to deal with retarded on-the-play Goblin opening hands, but for now anyway, I think we should deal with the optimal Game 1 maindeck.

Re: Ophidian-

For me, it's definitely a love/hate relationship. Phid has sooo many drawbacks in today's environment (especially against the tier 1 decks MUC needs to beat), it really makes you question the 4 precious slots he takes up. But the potential positives are sometimes too great to ignore. For me, he's out, and more early game answers (bounce) is in. Although, I always "feel" weird about not playing with him. I guess it might be because he's been apart of MUC since he was printed.

Re: Splashing a color for early game recovery-

The whole point of playing MUC is the untouchable manabase it gives you, plus the ability to run B2B, knowing that a resolved B2B will give the vast majority of your opponents nightmares. However, splashing Red for Fire/Ice and/or Pyroclasm would definitely help out out early game cause. Heck, Fire/Ice and Pyroclasm would be useful virtually any point during the game. I see no drawback in splashing Red, only positives. You could run 4x Volcanic Island, and 2x Blood Moon instead of 2x Back to Basics. Although not quite as strong, Blood Moon would still get the job done in most cases, with minimal drawback for you (Volcanic Island mana vs. Mountain mana).

Re: Answer in Blue for early game recovery-

I think MUC is at a point where this is as good as it gets until something new is printed. If there was a better blue card for early game recovery, it would have been found by now.

C.P.
11-17-2006, 04:03 PM
@Valmore

I aggree with you on splash. This deck is mono blue for a reason. It should never be splashing other colours.

About the ophidian, you should not forget the fact that it is a permernant. MUC differs from the landstill because it relies on permenats for getting board control, and that is one of the reason that landstill is (apparently)dead. Replacing him with a bounce spell might look good on paper, but I never liked it after I did some testing. Ophidian is also good at handling solidarity and some other random control oriented decks(e.g. Deadguy or 3CC). Maindeck bounce is also dead against combo, which is more serious threat than ever.

I agree with you on early game recovery. Unless some new recruit comes along, I think we've got everything that we could possibly use. I still like the idea of suprise engineered explosive as 3rd keg.

As for the maindeck, If we tweak the deck in a way that we can deal with gobbo's godhand without FOW, the deck will lose it's versatility because it would have too much permernant control. One of the reasons that I love the deck is that I has decent chance against everyting(except solidarity).

@Doks

While I do admit that bounce + counter had been blue's primary solution against resolved threat, it is not very effective for 2 reason.

1. It is slow. you need to play two spells a turn(at least for the threats like lackey or vial on turn 1), and that would probably mean you have more than 2 island. Or if it is not the case, then you're spending 2 turns on a threat. Either way, it is not the best thing to do in earlygame.

2. It is card disadvantage. it is essentially 2 for 1. Well, unless you use repeal. Bounce also had additional problem of being useless against things like mother of runes or a certain 2 mana goblin(It tends to be lethal if left unblocked).

@ to all

While I admit that maindeck tweaks should be considered, I think sideboard matters more, especially because of solidarity. Solidarity is one of the reason that MUC cannot be tier 1 in legacy. Once we solve that problem, I think MUc's got a future. Personally I find gobbos and thresh not that hard to beat, it is at least 50/50 for both matchups.

iOWN
11-17-2006, 07:36 PM
Re: Answer in Blue for early game recovery-

I think MUC is at a point where this is as good as it gets until something new is printed. If there was a better blue card for early game recovery, it would have been found by now.

Look at my list back a couple pages. If you're so worried about a Lackey or other deadly first turn plays, Daze and FoW already cover 8 answers. Psychic Purge covers Lackey... 12. Repeal can bounce it if you play first, so I'd say that's about 12 to 16 possibilities. Or you can even run Stifle, which can hose Lackeys ability for a turn giving you a chance to Repeal it, also being a pretty versatile card.

Doks
11-17-2006, 07:44 PM
It is card disadvantage. it is essentially 2 for 1. Well, unless you use repeal.

Right - and that's the reason why I use Repeal ;)
And why is bouncing + countering too slow?
You bounce that Vial for example eot, untap and keep that CC2-Counter to handle the bounced threat later.
Even if they are on the play, what do they want to do? - They generally replay the threat, you counter, they have 1-2 Mana open.
If it comes bad, they have the next 1CC threat, for example 2nd Lackey/Vial.
Otherwise, a lone Piledriver is not very dangerous, so just untap and keep stopping the next threats.


Doks

C.P.
11-17-2006, 09:01 PM
Right - and that's the reason why I use Repeal ;)
And why is bouncing + countering too slow?
You bounce that Vial for example eot, untap and keep that CC2-Counter to handle the bounced threat later.
Even if they are on the play, what do they want to do? - They generally replay the threat, you counter, they have 1-2 Mana open.
If it comes bad, they have the next 1CC threat, for example 2nd Lackey/Vial.
Otherwise, a lone Piledriver is not very dangerous, so just untap and keep stopping the next threats.


Doks

When you're on draw, bounce + counter is not very impressive. Can you bounce turn 1 lackey and counter, when you're on draw? Bunce + counter was traditionally used as countermeasure for things that does not run around early game or can be allowed to stay around longer than a turn(e.g. survival). For things that cannot be allowed to stay in play more than a turn(e.g. lackey), bounce + counter is not very effective(read: not fast enough).

@iOWN - Psychic purge is just bad. It is too narrow, and mostly useless unless you're playing gobbos.

iOWN
11-17-2006, 09:14 PM
When you're on draw, bounce + counter is not very impressive. Can you bounce turn 1 lackey and counter, when you're on draw?

@iOWN - Psychic purge is just bad. It is too narrow, and mostly useless unless you're playing gobbos.

It is good against Pikula (hits Confidant and makes them lose five off of Hymn or Verdict), against Goblins, can come of use against various other Aggros (it kills plenty of stuff, like Grim Lavamancer, unthreshed Werebear, etc.) and can just blow 1 to the head when completely useless. Besides, that's what the sideboard is for. If it has no use against whatever you play, then it makes sideboarding a bit easier for yourself.

Doks
11-18-2006, 05:38 AM
When you're on draw, bounce + counter is not very impressive. Can you bounce turn 1 lackey and counter, when you're on draw? Bunce + counter was traditionally used as countermeasure for things that does not run around early game or can be allowed to stay around longer than a turn(e.g. survival). For things that cannot be allowed to stay in play more than a turn(e.g. lackey), bounce + counter is not very effective(read: not fast enough).


Okay, if you see it this way, you're totally right.
But 1st turn Lackey on the draw without the force then seems like a big illness =/
So maybe the Shoal woud be interesting with Brainstorm/Repeal [Annul/Force Spike/Disrupt?]. It event stops Mongoose.
And CC2 can even be very useful for Piledriver/Werebear/Disenchant.
The problem I see is, that this causes big disadvantage that has to be equalized with a heavier drawengine.
Another faster way to deal with fast CC1 threats would be Engineered Explosives as they usually are faster than the Keg.
Problem is, that it can just be set on 1.


Doks

Vamore
11-18-2006, 10:36 AM
Okay, if you see it this way, you're totally right.
But 1st turn Lackey on the draw without the force then seems like a big illness =/
So maybe the Shoal woud be interesting with Brainstorm/Repeal [Annul/Force Spike/Disrupt?]. It event stops Mongoose.
And CC2 can even be very useful for Piledriver/Werebear/Disenchant.
The problem I see is, that this causes big disadvantage that has to be equalized with a heavier drawengine.
Another faster way to deal with fast CC1 threats would be Engineered Explosives as they usually are faster than the Keg.
Problem is, that it can just be set on 1.


Doks

Shoal is interesting, but as of now (maindeck trad. build), there isn't enough 1cc spells to make it effective when you NEED it most. Also, ditching a Brainstorm hurts oh-so-bad in the early game when you need to filter and gain card quality via Brainstorm/Fetchland.

You're right, in order to support Shoal (which I have no problem with), we need more 1cc spells.

However, what would be cut? I was thinking Opt in place of Impulse. Impulse is great, but Opt isn't a slouch either. 3x Force Spike + 4x Brainstorm + 4x Opt = enough 1cc spells for Shoal, plus the added benefit of more card filtering on turn 1 (a crucial part of the game to sculpt your hand).

Also, what would be cut for Shoal? I really would like to keep the standard counter suite of 4x Counterspell, 4x Force of Will, 4x Rune Snag/Mana Leak. The Spikes are up in the air, but those 12x counters are in FOR SURE.

C.P.
11-18-2006, 12:02 PM
Shoal is interesting, but as of now (maindeck trad. build), there isn't enough 1cc spells to make it effective when you NEED it most. Also, ditching a Brainstorm hurts oh-so-bad in the early game when you need to filter and gain card quality via Brainstorm/Fetchland.

You're right, in order to support Shoal (which I have no problem with), we need more 1cc spells.

However, what would be cut? I was thinking Opt in place of Impulse. Impulse is great, but Opt isn't a slouch either. 3x Force Spike + 4x Brainstorm + 4x Opt = enough 1cc spells for Shoal, plus the added benefit of more card filtering on turn 1 (a crucial part of the game to sculpt your hand).

Also, what would be cut for Shoal? I really would like to keep the standard counter suite of 4x Counterspell, 4x Force of Will, 4x Rune Snag/Mana Leak. The Spikes are up in the air, but those 12x counters are in FOR SURE.

Impulse is one of you're best selection card and it digs for 4. Opt digs for 2 max. Replacing impulse for opt is a big mistake.

I wouldn't run shoal personally, but if I run it,

4 Counterspell
4 F of W
3 Mana leak
3 Disrupting shoal
3 Force spike

2 repeal
2 back to basics
2 powder keg
2 verdalken shakles

4 Brainstorm
3 impuse
3 F or F

2 Morphling

23 lands
(no ophidian in the deck)

Will be the list.

@iOWN - That's pretty narrow. One thing about the MUC is that it deals with all kinds of threat, thanks to the counters. A card that's only good aginst 1 toughness creatures and situational discard looks pretty bad to me (at least on the traditional MUC that we're talking about). On top of that, it's a socery.

@doks - If that's the case, bounce can just stay on the sideboard, coming in only when you need it, right?

Doks
11-18-2006, 01:09 PM
I think Maximus04 would maindeck Repeal now as he wrote he sided it in against every kind of aggro.
The only MU where Repeal is really dead is Solidarity.
But the preboard MU is so bad that the 3-4 slots due to Repeal are that vital =/
In addition, what if you lose a counterwar although you rely so heavy on your counters?
Then you'll miss the bounce imho.
Personally, I wouldn't play without 3-4 MB Repeals.


Doks

Maximus04
11-19-2006, 06:12 PM
I'm in agreement with Doks, again.

Repeal has the most viable choice since it can win be useful early, mid, and late. I am not going to MB a card that is only viable for the first few turns. Its a waste of space. Please play test with repeal in the main, the format is full of aggro. Play testing will prove my point.

Once again, MUC has two different builds. I like both builds and each offers something to the table. I believe its a individual choice if you think Mox's and Cotv build are viable in your meta.

Impulse is greater than Opt. I shouldn't even have to show you examples of why this statement is true.

This is MUC, not Puddle Control or any type of splash, if you want to make a new type of build that you think is "awesome" in the format, post it in a new thread.

A rouge Forbid is very interesting idea, I'll play test and see if its worthwhile.

MUC has yet found its ultimate build, yes we have an excellent card pool and I wish we did have a few more choices, but I think we really haven't hit the peak of this decks ability to become tier 1.

Ophid is too hard to protect, thats why I have stopped running her. Nothing personal, just I get tired of commiting on my turn and loosing to a Stp, bolt, or edict.

Lanfeng
11-20-2006, 03:00 AM
Ophid is too hard to protect, thats why I have stopped running her. Nothing personal, just I get tired of commiting on my turn and loosing to a Stp, bolt, or edict.

Very true, making your opponents removal relevant is bad (btw the ophidian is the snake in the girls ear, not the girl)

Doks
11-20-2006, 10:36 AM
Once again, MUC has two different builds. I like both builds and each offers something to the table. I believe its a individual choice if you think Mox's and Cotv build are viable in your meta.


The CotV is causing me some headache:

On the one hand, an early CotV against Grow/Thresh is awesome.
It's not an autowin, but it disturbs the opponent so much you have a very good game from then.
On the other hand, there is a problem: often, they have the advantage of free Counters and they have the higher CQ which mostly makes it very hard to resolve an early Chalice.
[What puts counters like Spell Snare/Shoal in perspective with their advantages in counterwars.]
Later on, you don't really want to draw more chalices as they are dead cards primary until the TfK comes to plunge them.
Chalice can only be set to 0/1 for some use, 0 disturbing less decks.
And which decks really are disrupted by a Chalice at one except for Grow/***** and Solidarity [under reserve].
MUC can't support the Chalice as effective as Faerie Stompy/Angelstax can as they have the viable choice to drop it for 2 Counters without annoying themselves at an acceptable speed [thx to City of Traitors, Crystal Vein, Ancient Tomb].



MUC has yet found its ultimate build [...]


Well, obviously I don't know them at all. =/
Would anyone please be so kind to point at [if they are already in the thread here]/post the "ultimate" list for the modern as for the traditional build?


Doks

C.P.
11-21-2006, 02:05 PM
The CotV is causing me some headache:

On the one hand, an early CotV against Grow/Thresh is awesome.
It's not an autowin, but it disturbs the opponent so much you have a very good game from then.
On the other hand, there is a problem: often, they have the advantage of free Counters and they have the higher CQ which mostly makes it very hard to resolve an early Chalice.
[What puts counters like Spell Snare/Shoal in perspective with their advantages in counterwars.]
Later on, you don't really want to draw more chalices as they are dead cards primary until the TfK comes to plunge them.
Chalice can only be set to 0/1 for some use, 0 disturbing less decks.
And which decks really are disrupted by a Chalice at one except for Grow/***** and Solidarity [under reserve].
MUC can't support the Chalice as effective as Faerie Stompy/Angelstax can as they have the viable choice to drop it for 2 Counters without annoying themselves at an acceptable speed [thx to City of Traitors, Crystal Vein, Ancient Tomb].



Well, obviously I don't know them at all. =/
Would anyone please be so kind to point at [if they are already in the thread here]/post the "ultimate" list for the modern as for the traditional build?


Doks

I agree on CotV. The problem about CotV/Mox build is that they are only good early. And this deck has to be good early,mid, and late being a control deck and all. Unless the mox saph. is available, I don't think I'll add accellation.

Is matchup against thresh really bad that you have to resort to maindeck chalice? I usually happen to face fish instead of thresh, and I find the matchup 50/50, without much tweaks. I think UBW fish is not that different from thresh, but I haven't done much testing on it, I cannot be sure.

P.S. I think Maximus04's build on starcity D4D is the one that is closest to the best for now. While the list is weak against solidarity, the maindeck is one of the best MUC build that I've ever seen.:smile:

Doks
11-21-2006, 04:57 PM
I agree on CotV. The problem about CotV/Mox build is that they are only good early. And this deck has to be good early,mid, and late being a control deck and all. Unless the mox saph. is available, I don't think I'll add accellation.


Well, what do you think is late?
A 3rd turn FoF eot is still nice and later on, you have to plunge the mox with TfK.
If I'd not run the Mox I'd run more free countermagic, the closest choice there would be Disrupting Shoal.




Is matchup against thresh really bad that you have to resort to maindeck chalice? I usually happen to face fish instead of thresh, and I find the matchup 50/50, without much tweaks. I think UBW fish is not that different from thresh, but I haven't done much testing on it, I cannot be sure.


Against NQG/r [which is very popular in my Meta] MUC does not have the best MU [to be true, it is bad*], especially wihtout Chalice.
Against /w, the MU looks better, but not mor than 55/45 for MUC.
This is what you could improve by playing Chalice.

*Assumption you play the modern version.



Doks

Maximus04
11-26-2006, 01:45 AM
Some good deck discussion and each build probably has much merit.

I just wanted to post some MB decklist, I will post what both Tradition and Modern builds and we can compare and contrast. This will also give us some examples to work off of. Though, no build is perfect, i am just giving each of you an idea of how it will work.

1) Traditional A

Artifacts
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian

Enchantments
2 Back To Basics

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Force Spike
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak

Lands
16 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Quicksand

This build is running Ophids and Quicksands, Eric McGraw and I ran it at SCG D4D and it performed well.

2) Traditional B

Artifacts
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Morphling

Enchantments
2 Back To Basics

Instants
2 Disrupting Shoal
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Force Spike
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak
2 Repeal

Lands
15 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory

This traditional build does not run Ophidians or Quicksands but runs the Factories as an alternate win condition. The Shoal's provide another answer to turn 1 lackey/mongoose/vial/duress.

Now we can move on to Modern builds of MUC.

Modern A

Artifacts
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Chrome Mox
3 Chalice of the Void

Creatures
2 Morphling

Enchantments
2 Back To Basics

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak

Lands
16 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory

This deck runs very smooth and takes much from the tradition build. It can consistently get out the early Chrome Mox because of the early brainstorm even if it isn't in your opening hand.

Modern B

// Lands
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
12 [A] Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [VI] Quicksand

// Creatures
3 [US] Morphling

// Spells
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [SH] Mana Leak
4 [b] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [VI] Impulse

This build depends much heavier on the chalice while also adding bounce.

As for myself, I have not yet perfected a build though I would encourage all to try out Mishra's Factory in replace of Quicksand and Arcane Laboratory in your SB to help against the Solidarity matchups and combo matchups.

Just keep testing and anticipate your meta and you will find the build that works.

Doks
11-26-2006, 09:08 AM
Thx 4 the lists, that's the idea I personally needed =).

Now it is necessary to find the version that has the best all-around game.
Modern A and Traditional B may be the hottest candidates out of them.
Even if I'd like to add more Repeals to both versions (and TfK to Modern A).

What you have to decide is:

Chrome Mox <-> Disrupting Shoal

Both provide the advantage of countering very early whereas shoal does unconditional and the Mox "just" on the play.
Therefor accelerates the Mox into early FoF and counts as an wastelandproof Manasource.

Brainstorm <-> Chalice of the Void

I don't like the idea of playing them both MB in one deck (what should not be such a big problem in the Modern Version B as you can discard BS to TfK in addition to pitch it to FoW and Mox).
Without any doubt, Brainstorm is one of the strongest blue cards in Legacy.
Its synergy with Shuffle-Effects is indisputable. A playset Brainstorms ensures even the first few landdrops.

But chalice gives you something like a safety against all those lategame CC1 drops you don't have to counter then.
With the nice effect of disturbing NQG in all its versions very hard as it stops their crazy cantripping.
It improves the Soli-MU preboard very much and owns burn.
In general it is a bomb against combo.
Duress and Therapy attacks are shut down.
And with the Mox, it can come down on turn 1.
In combination with the other artifacts it gives the opportunity of playing TfK which is more than a viable replacing for Ophidian.


Doks

C.P.
12-12-2006, 03:59 PM
I've been playing the traditional build with some tweaks, and here is the list.

2 Morphling
4 Ophidian
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Back To Basics

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Force Spike
3 Impulse
3 Mana Leak
1 Forbid

14 Island
1 Flooded strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Quicksand

Sideboard

4 Chalice of the void
3 Teferi, Mage of Zalir
4 Hydroblast
2 Repeal
2 Scrabling Claws

Here's my opinion on the list.

The deck is fairly strong once it can stablize on early turns. The biggest weakness of the deck, as it is traditional MUC, is that it cannot deal with resolved threat. Powder Keg acts more like a 1:1 exchange for a pesky threats(namly mongoose), and Shakles handles the rest. The weakness of the answers are that the both of them are really slow, going online on turn 4 at the fastest. This means that you only have early counters to deal with early threats, namely vial and lacky.

Quicksand Proved itself strong in many matches, especially against goblins and white winnie. So I packed one more than what the original list had.
I also felt that fetches are strong solution for many strategy, namly denial, thus the inclusion of the fifth fetchland. Having more than 5 might lower the real land count(No. of island) to the dangerous extent, so I felt 5 was right number.

Another problem That I faced was that mana leak and force spike was dead after they reach around 5-6 lands. I tried rune snag in the place of mana leak, but the difference between 2 and 3 on the early game was much bigger than I expected. I ended up taking a leak out and added a singleton forbid. This proved useful in following ways:

1. Any dead card just became the food for forbid. This solved problem of mana leaks and force spikes being dead. It also got rid of other dead cards on occasion. This also had effect of having more counters than the deck actually runs, a facts that helps in a long game against aggro control.

2. Ophidian became better. Well, It is Forbidian, after all.

3. Due to your efficient selection engine, a singleton forbid showed up more than expected. You still can't base your game plan on the forbid, but it showed up resonably in way that it was there when your hand had more than 2 dead cards.

I tried to include bounce, like many other people. I just could not found the spot. Only way to do this, is probably by cutting a couple counters. However, I just decided to take the approach of dealing with resolved permernants with permerrnants. The sideboard still needs work in that way.

I'm aware of the fact that many people does not like ophidian. I understand that it is fragile, and not useful on some occasions, but You don't really have to protect it. Ophidian is stll very good in the situations where both sides are out of gas. Also the gradual card advantage of the Ophidian is something that the deck really needs. FoF is an amaging cards, but you only gain the advantage once. To achieve soild control, you need better engine. And only card that can do that right now, is Phidian, unless you wanna use something like treasure trove.

The sidboard, for now, just concetrates on beating solidarity. The cahlice hurts Solidadrity(I hurts you as well, but not as much), ans gives you an oppotunity of resolving teferi. After teferi resolves, the things gets much easier. And winning the counter war so the teferi would resolve at end of their turn is no very hard. Notice that It happens at the end of their turn so their cahnce of going off in respoce is limited. The claws are there because I did not like the crypt. Only occsion that the crypt was better was when I was facing 43land.dec I really like to see needles in sidboard, but I cannot find space for it just yet.

Well, this is it. Hopely someone can share there opinions on the other bulids and their tweaks.

Poron
12-12-2006, 10:34 PM
my 2 cents:

4 Force Spike
4 Rune Snag
4 Force of Will
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak/Misdirection

2 Back to Basic
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction

2 Capsize

3 Rainbow Efreet

13 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Quicksand


1---> 8
2---> 15
3---> 6
4---> 5
5---> 4

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Teferi
3 Arcane Laboratory
5 free slot

Complete_Jank
12-12-2006, 10:54 PM
How can you play a deck in your meta and luck your way through competition.

Goblins at 50% for the entire match-up
Solidarity practically an auto loss

Yes, I played against this deck, but it really comes down to luck.

I can't see why you wouldn't throw at least a basic plains, a tundra, and focus on 4 flooded strands so you could bring in Mettling Mages to help save your Butt against Multiple combo decks, but mainly Solidarity.

Poron
12-12-2006, 10:59 PM
solidarity is a stupid deck..it's not a surprise it's disappearing from every top8.

anyway 3 Teferi from SB and it's almost auto-win, not autoloss

Goblin? 4 Powder keg 4 Vedalken and some Pithing Needle from SB to stop Rishadan and Aether Vial
Once you let 1 Fuse counter on the first Powder keg it's quite easy to handle the rest, and Quicksand is very strong for this matchup. Anyway Vial-Goblin rests a bad matchup for MUC and we probably should try to use the last 5 free SBslots to improve our control vs gobbos..
this is a strong deck, not a luck-based one..

sorry for my english

edit: oh anyway we can play 4 CotV by side, they're great against Solidarity, Burn, Gobbos, Threshold, and a 0 CotV can cut out all moxes or the whole GameKeeper Salvagers combo.

Yes, definitly to include..

C.P.
12-13-2006, 12:31 AM
solidarity is a stupid deck..it's not a surprise it's disappearing from every top8.

anyway 3 Teferi from SB and it's almost auto-win, not autoloss

Goblin? 4 Powder keg 4 Vedalken and some Pithing Needle from SB to stop Rishadan and Aether Vial
Once you let 1 Fuse counter on the first Powder keg it's quite easy to handle the rest, and Quicksand is very strong for this matchup. Anyway Vial-Goblin rests a bad matchup for MUC and we probably should try to use the last 5 free SBslots to improve our control vs gobbos..
this is a strong deck, not a luck-based one..

sorry for my english

edit: oh anyway we can play 4 CotV by side, they're great against Solidarity, Burn, Gobbos, Threshold, and a 0 CotV can cut out all moxes or the whole GameKeeper Salvagers combo.

Yes, definitly to include..

Solidarity, while I loath it with passion when I'm playing this deck, It is a solid deck. The fact that it is disappearing from top 8 only means that aggro controls sees more play, which is solidarity's biggest weakness. With meta full of blue based control and pure aggro, solidarity really shines.
3 Teferies does decent job at hosing solidarity, but it still does not change the fact that the matchup is bad. solidarity still has advantage, considering teferi costs 5 mana and therefore slow to play.

Goblins matchup is not a bad one as long as you keep two cards off the board: vial and lacky. BEB and Needle is very good at doing this. This deck can handle goblins with reasonable manner with just maindeck.
4 shakles and 4 keg is just overkill. with the draw suite this deck have, 2/2 split is just enough. I found the matchup to be very reasonable one, far from being very bad.

P.S. @Complete Jank: coin flip matters a lot in this deck since it uses force spike. but that does not mean that this deck purely depends on luck. Any other decks depend on the luck as much as this deck.
Your idea with a singe plains + mage sounds very interesting. I'll try to tweak with the idea, but the mana base might not permit it. I'll see how it goes.

Complete_Jank
12-13-2006, 12:55 AM
P.S. @Complete Jank: coin flip matters a lot in this deck since it uses force spike. but that does not mean that this deck purely depends on luck. Any other decks depend on the luck as much as this deck.
Your idea with a singe plains + mage sounds very interesting. I'll try to tweak with the idea, but the mana base might not permit it. I'll see how it goes.

I meant that Luck in pairings, not so much in play.

If you run 1 Plains and maybe 1 Tundra that would add with 4 Flooded Strands and 2 Poluted Deltas a total of 8 possibilities of getting the white when needed.. It is kind of sneaky and would be unexpected.

If you run Morphling as a win, almost all target removal would be sided out anyways, leaving no answer for mages, or few answers that you could just counter anyways.

C.P.
12-13-2006, 01:30 AM
I meant that Luck in pairings, not so much in play.

If you run 1 Plains and maybe 1 Tundra that would add with 4 Flooded Strands and 2 Poluted Deltas a total of 8 possibilities of getting the white when needed.. It is kind of sneaky and would be unexpected.

If you run Morphling as a win, almost all target removal would be sided out anyways, leaving no answer for mages, or few answers that you could just counter anyways.

In pairings, Only deck that can hurt you is solidarity. This deck has even matchup for all the other decks in the format.

Most of good players keeps some of their removals in, as ophidian is a huge threat if left unchecked. Mage surely has suprise value, and it sounds pretty attractive aginst solidarity, but one of the things that this deck enjoys is its complete immunity to wasteland. I'm not sure how splashing a colour would work... Only way of making it work, is probaly commiting more space on SB so you can side the lands in as well. I'll try to see if this 6-card commitment is worth it.

Poron
12-13-2006, 08:18 AM
MUC can't lose to Solidarity.. we play almost 20 counters Solidarity just 8, it's only necessary to wait (until you draw a Teferi obviously).

I haven't tested much these days but I never lost to soldarity with muc.

Cait_Sith
12-13-2006, 09:47 AM
Counter are purely reactive and cost mana and (at times) give you card disadvantage. Solidarity likes to play entirely on your turn, this is not a good thing for MUC. MUCs with heavy counter prefer their action to be during their opponents turns, not during their own. Solidarity can keep fiding the cards it needs, MUC cannot. Solidarity can, quite literally, go off around your counters. You counter 1 spell and lose about 40+ cards out of your library and possibly the game, right then and there.

C.P.
12-13-2006, 11:13 AM
MUC can't lose to Solidarity.. we play almost 20 counters Solidarity just 8, it's only necessary to wait (until you draw a Teferi obviously).

I haven't tested much these days but I never lost to soldarity with muc.

You just haven't tested with competive player then.

No offence, but It is an awful matchup. Remember that you have absolutly no way of stopping storm. Remand is quite a pain, as well.

HdH_Cthulhu
12-13-2006, 11:32 AM
And dont forget you present no clock to Solidarity so the can lay lands down and built up a perfeckt hand... and each counter counts the storm up!

Silverdragon
12-13-2006, 02:18 PM
MUC can't lose to Solidarity.. we play almost 20 counters Solidarity just 8, it's only necessary to wait (until you draw a Teferi obviously).

I haven't tested much these days but I never lost to soldarity with muc.

Teferi is the only real threat MUC has against Solidarity and this guy doesn't even have split second so it is possible to go off in response before he hits the table (although this means no Resets).
You say that you play almost 20 counters to their 8 but guess what, there is a handsize limit of 7 which means you'll have at most 7 counters against their hand of 6 threats and 1 Brainfreeze (or even worse 2 Brainfreeze [and perhaps even a Flash of Insight in the yard]).
Considering that you have to aggressively dig for a threat yourself, at the point that Solidarity has to go off you often have only about 30 cards left in your library which makes it even easier to deck you.
So I have to agree with the posters before me that Solidarity is a horrible matchup close to unbeatable (if you don't play the full hate package).

On another note, why is there no decklist playing the full 4 Vedalken Shackles? These are an absolute powerhouse against everything not called Mongoose or Ascetic. I'm thinking the matchup against Tendrilscombo heavily favors this deck anyway and High Tide combo as outlined above is a bad matchup either way so why not pack the full package of creature hate? Are things like Rune Snagg, Spell Snare or what have you really that much better to play a playset of them instead of the best card Monoblue has seen since FoF?

C.P.
12-13-2006, 03:48 PM
Teferi is the only real threat MUC has against Solidarity and this guy doesn't even have split second so it is possible to go off in response before he hits the table (although this means no Resets).
You say that you play almost 20 counters to their 8 but guess what, there is a handsize limit of 7 which means you'll have at most 7 counters against their hand of 6 threats and 1 Brainfreeze (or even worse 2 Brainfreeze [and perhaps even a Flash of Insight in the yard]).
Considering that you have to aggressively dig for a threat yourself, at the point that Solidarity has to go off you often have only about 30 cards left in your library which makes it even easier to deck you.
So I have to agree with the posters before me that Solidarity is a horrible matchup close to unbeatable (if you don't play the full hate package).

On another note, why is there no decklist playing the full 4 Vedalken Shackles? These are an absolute powerhouse against everything not called Mongoose or Ascetic. I'm thinking the matchup against Tendrilscombo heavily favors this deck anyway and High Tide combo as outlined above is a bad matchup either way so why not pack the full package of creature hate? Are things like Rune Snagg, Spell Snare or what have you really that much better to play a playset of them instead of the best card Monoblue has seen since FoF?

Shakles is an amazing card, all right. However, 2 is enough in most cases. One of the strength of the deck is that it runs selection suite in forms of bain+fetch and impulse so that it can search for the card that you need. Having 4 shakles and dropping counterspells will lower this deck's versatillity, considering that conterspell answers everything while shakle does not. It is also slow, comeing online on turn 4 at fastest. It's not very impressive against control either.

Kadaj
12-13-2006, 04:25 PM
MUC loses very nearly every game to Solidarity. In fact, if you play against even a halfway decent player you should never win that matchup. UWBS Would have the same problem, it has no clock to backup it's countermagic. Meddling Mage alone isn't enough and if Solidarity gets 8 or so lands in play you have no chance to win the game at all. The fact that MUC beats the tar out of every combo deck not named Solidarity also makes Mage a win more because in the one matchup you want it to help it isn't nearly enough and it isn't necessary in any of the others.

The reason 4 Shackles aren't played is because they are horrible draws in quite a few cases. I started with 4, cut one, then went down to 2 because playing one often requires that you tap out or at least close to it which leaves vulnerable.

Something that no one seems to take into account is how powerful Back to Basics is. If you can force it through against Threshold you more or less won the game right there (which is why I included 3 in my build) and it can even hurt Goblins by turning off Ports and whatever duals they may have played. It's possibly the best anti-randomness tool MUC has, and it absolutely has to be maindecked in every MUC deck if you intend on taking it to a major tournament.

Teferi is good against Solidarity if you can find a window to cast it without leaving yourself totally vulnerable to Solidarity comboing off in response, which isn't easy. Especially if they have Remand/Force of Will, which forces you to either have a FoW yourself or let them continously prolong your ability to cast Teferi and eventually just combo in response.

The Ophidian/Forbid engine is undoubtedly powerful and if you can establish it is more or less an automatic win against anything other than Solidarity (see a trend?), but that's next to impossible in the matchups that actually matter. Thresh is never going to let you do anything of that sort, Solidarity can easily win through 1 whole recurring counter, and Goblins will never let an early Phid connect.

I still maintain that agressively digging for Fact or Fictions is the best way to win games with this deck. Even if all you get is good card selection and a 2 for 1 you can still chain into another FoF, at which point you more or less win the game. Going to a major tournament with this I would totally ignore the Solidarity matchup and just board attempting to win against everything else. Make the Goblins matchup as good as possible by including BeB, additional Shackles, Force Spike/Disrupting Shoal (I would play Disrupting Shoal over Force Spike if you have 1cc spells to utilize it with, but my build has none to make CotV totally one-sided), and then blast Thresh with CotV, and Tormod's Crypt plus B2B in the maindeck.

Having one deck that's more or less an autoloss doesn't make MUC an unviable deck choice, just one that you really need to be careful with before making your final choice on a deck. If you expect a lot of Solidarity and Goblins find another deck. If a lot of Thresh and random combo/aggro is expected then this could easily be a metagame bomb.

C.P.
12-13-2006, 04:38 PM
Teferi is good against Solidarity if you can find a window to cast it without leaving yourself totally vulnerable to Solidarity comboing off in response, which isn't easy. Especially if they have Remand/Force of Will, which forces you to either have a FoW yourself or let them continously prolong your ability to cast Teferi and eventually just combo in response.

The Ophidian/Forbid engine is undoubtedly powerful and if you can establish it is more or less an automatic win against anything other than Solidarity (see a trend?), but that's next to impossible in the matchups that actually matter. Thresh is never going to let you do anything of that sort, Solidarity can easily win through 1 whole recurring counter, and Goblins will never let an early Phid connect.

I still maintain that agressively digging for Fact or Fictions is the best way to win games with this deck. Even if all you get is good card selection and a 2 for 1 you can still chain into another FoF, at which point you more or less win the game. Going to a major tournament with this I would totally ignore the Solidarity matchup and just board attempting to win against everything else. Make the Goblins matchup as good as possible by including BeB, additional Shackles, Force Spike/Disrupting Shoal (I would play Disrupting Shoal over Force Spike if you have 1cc spells to utilize it with, but my build has none to make CotV totally one-sided), and then blast Thresh with CotV, and Tormod's Crypt plus B2B in the maindeck.

Teferi can come down relatively easily with chalice backup. turn 2 chalice turns the deck down, and it souldn't be hard to resolve teferi on turn 5 if you can do that.

Forbid is just there to get rid of some dead cards. Forbidian engine is never reliable one in the format. However, Ophidian goes nuts much more then people think it does. With keg/shakles backup, Phid usually finds a way of forcing it through.

B2B is just too good. The reason no one mentions it is probably because it is an autoinclude without a doubt. Same as how no one try to stress how powerful force of will is..:cool:

Poron
12-13-2006, 04:51 PM
omg if you have so many problems with Solidarity try Arcane Laboratory.. probably I haven't still tested enough vs Solidarity (and it's true, I had just a couple of test..) but if you have such a bad matchup vs S. then play 4 Arcane Laboratory.. (which are anyway good vs aggro, elves, burns..)

but really.. I can't imagin how a solidarity can beat us with 3 Teferi + 4 CotV (which are in every MUC SB).. CotV by 1 and High Tide is out; Teferi and you cut even Resets -__-

anyway this are just my feelings without real tests

C.P.
12-13-2006, 05:13 PM
omg if you have so many problems with Solidarity try Arcane Laboratory.. probably I haven't still tested enough vs Solidarity (and it's true, I had just a couple of test..) but if you have such a bad matchup vs S. then play 4 Arcane Laboratory.. (which are anyway good vs aggro, elves, burns..)

but really.. I can't imagin how a solidarity can beat us with 3 Teferi + 4 CotV (which are in every MUC SB).. CotV by 1 and High Tide is out; Teferi and you cut even Resets -__-

anyway this are just my feelings without real tests

Looks like you're forgetting the fact that the deck runs a spell called brain freeze.:wink:

The very thing they want is a counterwar that fuels storm count. Then the brain freeze ruins your entire day. Arcane lab is not impressive without a clock. Dandan, maybe.

Poron
12-13-2006, 05:18 PM
then, (noob question) with a CotV by 2, is Brain Freeze stopped or it starts storming anyway?

C.P.
12-13-2006, 05:28 PM
then, (noob question) with a CotV by 2, is Brain Freeze stopped or it starts storming anyway?

Chalise does not stop the freeze, as far as I know. The copies are not played, apperantly. Same goes for replicate. And chalice for 2 will hurt you more then them.

Atwa
12-13-2006, 06:01 PM
Whenever you play against Solidarity, the opponent will propably build his/her hand for the first couple of turns, since by game 2 they will know you are playing BBS.

Why don't you keep Teferi in your hand for an extra turn and play him in your 6th turn's upkeep?? That way you can keep at least some mana up in the case they try to go off in your 5th turn, which allows you to counter some stuff. When playing Teferi, you are bound to tap out at least at one point in the game, so why not do so at a moment they can't use their resets? There is little they can do about it (except counter it off course, which is always something you should be aware of), since most Solidarity players are more tempted to start comboing with a Reset over a Turnabout.

Also, Chalice at 2 is a very bad idea, since almost every counterspell costs 2 mana.

C.P.
12-13-2006, 06:05 PM
That extra turn gives them more chance of getting counter. On turn 5-6, They do not have enought resources to go off without reset, anyway. The best way of pulling it off is at end of their turn, for sure.

Atwa
12-13-2006, 06:09 PM
I am going to slap myself in the face for forgetting flash cards can also be played at the end of your opponents turn. Man I need to play (and sleep) some more and work a little less.

Poron
12-13-2006, 06:16 PM
ehm.. and why not Stifle? storm out = no solidarity! :D

edit: TRICKBIND :D!!

C.P.
12-13-2006, 06:24 PM
ehm.. and why not Stifle? storm out = no solidarity! :D

Try squeezing one in, please.

Their remands still pose some problem, as well. If you go with stifle, you probably have to ditch the entire teferi/chalice plan, without having no real solution to the matchup.

EDIT: Trickbind is worse, since it cost 2 mana. They have no problem remanding the freeze ack as it is.

Poron
12-13-2006, 06:39 PM
trickbind is "split second" can't be countered and solidarity is owned with a single card 1U cc.

and if they remand their own BF? well I can't believe you have no answears to a simple Remand..

so the only thing to do is to play Stifle and to protect it with counters.

Kadaj
12-13-2006, 06:40 PM
I played 30 test games against Solidarity with 4 Stifle, 3 Teferi, 4 CotV, and 4 Dandan in the board, along with Chrome Mox and no 1cc spells in the MD. Know what my record was? 16-14. Even after totally tearing my sideboard apart and going entirely after Solidarity you still BARELY have a 50-50 matchup even after board. That's how bad that matchup is.

CotV at 1 hurts them yes, but it does not turn off any of their countermagic and most, if not all, Solidarity builds have Rebuild in the board which can be used to easily screw with any CotV buisness you had intended. There's no way you'll ever get enough mana to get CotV with 3 counters and playing it with 2 kills you more than them. Teferi can still be remanded, forced, bounced, whatever, like everything else you'd want to board against Solidarity with. It's just not a good matchup.

If you absolutely must play MUC and you know you're going to face a ton of Solidarity then you have to play as many hard counters as you can, because conditional ones like Mana Leak and Force Spike are useless when your opponent has excess mana, and probably do something drastic like maindecking Dandan and CotV.

Obviously doing so wrecks your chances against other decks postboard, and still doesn't give you a particularly good matchup against Solidarity. That matchups just not winnable.

Trickbind doesn't help for one simple reason. "Remand my brainfreeze after trickbind resolves, replay it."

HdH_Cthulhu
12-14-2006, 11:14 AM
Stifle is totaly useless against Solitarity because on the time when they cast brainfreez they are on the end of their combo what means 20+ mana in their pool and near to all counters in ther hand and maby a second or third brainfreeze...

C.P.
12-14-2006, 05:23 PM
I played 30 test games against Solidarity with 4 Stifle, 3 Teferi, 4 CotV, and 4 Dandan in the board, along with Chrome Mox and no 1cc spells in the MD. Know what my record was? 16-14. Even after totally tearing my sideboard apart and going entirely after Solidarity you still BARELY have a 50-50 matchup even after board. That's how bad that matchup is.

CotV at 1 hurts them yes, but it does not turn off any of their countermagic and most, if not all, Solidarity builds have Rebuild in the board which can be used to easily screw with any CotV buisness you had intended. There's no way you'll ever get enough mana to get CotV with 3 counters and playing it with 2 kills you more than them. Teferi can still be remanded, forced, bounced, whatever, like everything else you'd want to board against Solidarity with. It's just not a good matchup.

If you absolutely must play MUC and you know you're going to face a ton of Solidarity then you have to play as many hard counters as you can, because conditional ones like Mana Leak and Force Spike are useless when your opponent has excess mana, and probably do something drastic like maindecking Dandan and CotV.

Obviously doing so wrecks your chances against other decks postboard, and still doesn't give you a particularly good matchup against Solidarity. That matchups just not winnable.

Trickbind doesn't help for one simple reason. "Remand my brainfreeze after trickbind resolves, replay it."

CotV + Teferi and Dandan + lab is two different strategy. I'm not sure how effective would they be after that. CotV Teferi works in the trational bouild with no mox. It doesn't give you more than 40/60, but that still is enough, as you can push it through. Dandan lab is decent, but they cannot be used in any other matchup, so I'm very hesistant about actually using it in tourney.

Poron
12-15-2006, 07:49 AM
oh I'm testing now my list with 2 Stifle instead of 2 Mana Leak and 2 other Stifle SB.

Looking for Solidarity to test. And anyway Stifle is always good.. and it feeds always Force of Will or Shoals..

Eldariel
12-15-2006, 08:53 AM
Here's what you need against Solidarity:
Counterbalance

There, I said it. A resolved Counterbalance should be good enough to basically win the game, as it can counter every spell they try (most importantly, without giving them Storm-count), not only their accelerants (of course, it requires you to add Top, but meh, better than nothing).

C.P.
12-15-2006, 12:38 PM
How does a spell countered by the balance does not count as spell?

Anyway, this deck only runs 4 brainstorm. And the top/counterbalance is not sufficient to stop the deck. I guess it deserves try, but the engine tends to suck against aggro decks, especially goblins.

Kadaj
12-29-2006, 11:49 AM
Here's something interesting coming out in Planar Chaos:

Pirate Charm

Instant C
Choose one — Target creature gains islandwalk until end of turn; or target creature gets +2/-1 until end of turn; or target player discards a card.

So a blue Funeral Charm. It's never going to be the best card, but it is an answer to turn 1 Lackey as well as a brand of disruption Blue doesn't get a lot. I'm going to be testing this in my next build as well as Counterbalance-Top, so I'll get back to you guys on it.

Drkdstryer
12-29-2006, 01:07 PM
How does a spell countered by the balance does not count as spell?

You don't help THEM out with a counterspell of your own.

Iranon
12-29-2006, 05:38 PM
That new charm could have some impact. It's very effective on a stick, and staying mono-blue frees you to do a lot of things that would stretch the manabase too thin otherwise (such as a draw engine based on Scrying Sheets).

C.P.
12-30-2006, 03:03 PM
@ Drkdstryer

They can still go spell - spell - spell - spell - freeze. The thing is you are going to give them the time to set a perfect hand to do so.


@Kadaj

Wow. I'm exited. Not sure how good it would be, but very interesting thing to run against aggro. a potential sideboard?

outsideangel
12-30-2006, 04:54 PM
@ Drkdstryer

They can still go spell - spell - spell - spell - freeze. The thing is you are going to give them the time to set a perfect hand to do so.



That would all happen anyway. Counterbalance may not be the best answer, but at least it's an answer, which MUC is traditionally lacking when facing down Solidarity.

They can still play spells, but if you can counter most of their draw and High Tides, it'll be difficult for them to get both their mana and their storm to critical levels.

C.P.
12-30-2006, 09:15 PM
That would all happen anyway. Counterbalance may not be the best answer, but at least it's an answer, which MUC is traditionally lacking when facing down Solidarity.

They can still play spells, but if you can counter most of their draw and High Tides, it'll be difficult for them to get both their mana and their storm to critical levels.

The point is that counterbalance needs a backup. What do you plan to run, a top? If you talk about an incomplete answer, chalice or teferi also serves an answer.

Counterbalance is also not very impressive against the goblins. An aggro plan with dandan is something that I've been thinking of. with counter backup, winning with 5 turn clock is not hard.

Silverdragon
01-04-2007, 09:45 PM
It's 3 a.m. here in Germany and I'm really tired so forgive me if this sounds just stupid but what about Boomerang and Capsize?
These bouce spells can slow down Solidarity until you can find some other hate and creatures by simply bouncing their lands and Capsize can even create a softlock once you've got enough mana. As a bonus they are not dead against aggro too.

Kadaj
01-04-2007, 11:05 PM
Here's the problem I've had in testing. The Counterbalance-Top engine reminds me a lot of Intuition-AK. It's good, but not as good as you'd like considering how much space it takes up and how little it does in certain matchups. Yes it helps against Solidarity, but still you're not going to get that matchup any better than 50-50, and it's horrible against Goblins. I've tried several lists, all of which have had the same issue: Counterbalance-Top takes up 8 potential slots (aproximately, anyway) that would otherwise go to draw, creature control, or counterspells, and it's not good enough at any of the above to replace them. Hence, my reccomendation is those of you who want to play Balance-Top is to find an aggro-control shell to fit it into, where you can actually establish board position before dropping the pseudo-lock.

Pirate Charm really sucks in this kind of deck. It was never what I wanted it to be, and at most it's a very bad Lackey answer in a deck that really can't use any of its other functions. I will, however, readily admit that the lists I used were badly unrefined and thus their lack of success isn't really surprising. I'd be glad to continue testing, or let others take it up, but it seems like this is not the deck for Balance-Top.

Doks
01-05-2007, 08:24 AM
I have never been a friend of that Counterbalance/Top-Engine for all those reasons and the ones listed before in this thread.

The only thing in the SB against Solidarity for me would be the Arcane Laboratory as a 3 of. It is even good against other Combo.
If you manage to resolve one try to counter the wishes as they will turn into Wipe Away.
Otherwise, I go so far to say that this IS a bad MU and concentrate on others.
Other Combo-MU except solidarity are pretty much in MUC's favour, so why to desperate about that only one while there are really not so much Solidarity-Players (in my meta).

@ Silverdragon:

I think the only real possible bounce for MUC is Repeal, as it is cheap (means fast) enough to handle early threats (especially vial) without creating any disadvantage.
Until Capsize comes online with Buyback it is pretty much too late.


So far,

Doks

Maximus04
01-05-2007, 01:51 PM
Pirate charm is TOO conditional for it have any true use in the deck. I realistically played this deck at D4D, knowing that I had a terrible matchup against Solidarity. There is really no way to get around the fact. Run Arcane Labs and try to get a chalice for 1. That is really your only way of slowing them down, also make sure to counter the Wish.

If you are THAT paranoid about this matchup then this deck is obviously not for you. You dedicate 3 to 5 slots in the side and you do your best to win. You can usually top 8 with a loss.

After much testing, Repeal is still the best bounce around. Dok's is right, again, haha.

Cait_Sith
01-05-2007, 02:05 PM
Pirate Charm is good early game vs Gobs, Thresh, and meh vs Solidarity. I would think that MUC would like using it.

nitewolf9
01-05-2007, 04:03 PM
Pirate Charm really sucks in this kind of deck. It was never what I wanted it to be, and at most it's a very bad Lackey answer in a deck that really can't use any of its other functions.

How is Pirate Charm a bad answer for lackey? It kills lackey. That's the best answer to lackey. Force is card disad., and putting a blocker out there isn't guaranteed. It's never a dead card and this deck runs draw. Lackey destroys you if he hits. I think Pirate Charm is a boon for this deck.

Oh yeah, boomerang might be alright MD. Then you could run 4 Dandans in the board. At least you'd have some kind of a clock, which is what you need to beat solidarity.

C.P.
01-05-2007, 05:49 PM
How is Pirate Charm a bad answer for lackey? It kills lackey. That's the best answer to lackey. Force is card disad., and putting a blocker out there isn't guaranteed. It's never a dead card and this deck runs draw. Lackey destroys you if he hits. I think Pirate Charm is a boon for this deck.

Oh yeah, boomerang might be alright MD. Then you could run 4 Dandans in the board. At least you'd have some kind of a clock, which is what you need to beat solidarity.

It is bad because it only deals with lackey. FoW, on the other hand, deals with everything. Against gobbos, the charm only deals with lackey, fanatic(how horrible), and matron. Its discard function is marginal at best.

I tried Dandan, and I felt it is only good with something like chalice or arcane lab. I still feel that chalice + teferi is the best answer so far, since they are good against many other decks.

Doks
01-06-2007, 05:47 PM
// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
12 [A] Island

// Creatures
3 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [VI] Impulse
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mana Leak
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will

This is what my current modern build looks like.

The Matchups I want that chalice I want it early, so it is a 4-of.
Otherwise, it is TfK-fodder with the third shackles and later Moxen.
I really like Tfk, especially in a deck with that artifact count it is very supportable.

As Maximus04 said: try out Mishra's Factory, it's worth its slots ;)
With 20 sources of blue you can easily support 3 colorless Lands.

They work as a Clock that doesn't need to be forced through (-> Solidarity any1?), they are another way of finishing move and last but not least - simply blockers that trade even with a threshed Mongoose or a thrown in the way of an X/2 Piledriver ;)


Doks

ForceofWill
01-09-2007, 05:40 PM
It is bad because it only deals with lackey. FoW, on the other hand, deals with everything. Against gobbos, the charm only deals with lackey, fanatic(how horrible), and matron. Its discard function is marginal at best.

I tried Dandan, and I felt it is only good with something like chalice or arcane lab. I still feel that chalice + teferi is the best answer so far, since they are good against many other decks.

Are you kidding It's perfect it's removal for 1 mana which this deck REALLY Needs as well as can be pitched to force of will and if they have no cards in hand during their draw phase after they draw you can make them dicard without a chance to play anything.

Lanfeng
01-09-2007, 07:26 PM
can be pitched to force of will

Never use this argument it is a terrible argument. "Hey moonlace might come in handy when somebody pyroblasts your ophidian, plus it can be pitched to force zomg!" If you haven't noticed yet, every blue card can be pitched to force, the only upside is that running cards like daze and mana leak (which both are relatively playable cards) or certain cards that are the weakest cards in your deck is that you won't have a tough choice choosing the right card to pitch to force. This deck can't afford to play a weak card (no deck can), I haven't decided what to think about pirate charm yet, but my instincts say that it is much too situational. As for choosing the right card to pitch to force when there is no obvious choice I normally choose the brainstorm or AK or the FOF or the Ophidian before I even consider a counterspell or other force. You'd rather have a counter then try to dig for a counter.

Hate to go off topic, but am I the only one seeing just like 5 threads in the Open Legacy Discussion section?

Doks
01-10-2007, 12:23 PM
Hi again.

Got just some thought now as I looked throug my cards:

Do you think that there is a way to usefully include Gifts Ungiven in this deck?
Or do you even know a way?

I mean, this card has a lot potential:
Cardadvantage and precise search, but there is actually no way that comes into my mind to use it.


Doks

Maximus04
01-11-2007, 12:50 AM
I have also considered the card too...but it would compete with FoF slot. I have never playtested it, because I was far too fond of FoF to even consider dropping it for Gifts. The amount of card advantage your recieve with FoF should overule the precision of Gifts. Not enough silver bullets in the deck.

C.P.
01-11-2007, 01:11 AM
I have also considered the card too...but it would compete with FoF slot. I have never playtested it, because I was far too fond of FoF to even consider dropping it for Gifts. The amount of card advantage your recieve with FoF should overule the precision of Gifts. Not enough silver bullets in the deck.

I agree with Maximus on here. I actually tried one before, and found it to be bad. There are only 6 silver bullets in the deck, and more bullets means less counter. FoF is just plain better in the deck, given that Impulse/Brainstorm/Fetch works as a pseudo-tutor. If FoF is banned, than gifts might be worth it.:tongue:

P.S. I found that factories are better at handling Geese or Crystalline sliver, but removal became very pesky. WW(due to shadow) also became problem. Is choice between Factory and Quicksand just metagame Dependant?

Doks
01-11-2007, 04:20 PM
Well, guess you're right - more 4CC spells without cutting another one won't work that good =/

@ Mishra vs. Quicksand:

Imho the Mishra is more versatile.
It even takes down those pesky mongoose and provides a clock in the Combo-MU as you normally must expect them to go off so 2 Mana for 2 Dmg a turn sounds like a good deal while you have countermana available.


Doks

Doks
01-14-2007, 05:26 PM
Hi.

Sry 4 doublepost but I guess I have some interesting results as I went 5-2-0 (finished 9th place) at Germany's D&#252;lmen (95 Players)

1. Round: Simon mit Burn 2:0 win
2. Round: Robert mit *****/Madness-Mix 2:0 win
3. Round: Andre mit Mono-B Sui 2:0 win
4. Round: David mit U/W Landstill 0:2 loss
5. Round: Phillip mit Gobbos 2:0 win
6. Round: Fabian mit NQG/r 2:0 win
7. Round: Florian mit Hannifish 0:2 loss

I played a modern list with some little changes I will edit later as I am now going to sleep.

Edit tomorrow ;)


Doks

C.P.
01-14-2007, 09:54 PM
Hi.

Sry 4 doublepost but I guess I have some interesting results as I went 5-2-0 (finished 9th place) at Germany's Dülmen (95 Players)

1. Round: Simon mit Burn 2:0 win
2. Round: Robert mit *****/Madness-Mix 2:0 win
3. Round: Andre mit Mono-B Sui 2:0 win
4. Round: David mit U/W Landstill 0:2 loss
5. Round: Phillip mit Gobbos 2:0 win
6. Round: Fabian mit NQG/r 2:0 win
7. Round: Florian mit Hannifish 0:2 loss

I played a modern list with some little changes I will edit later as I am now going to sleep.

Edit tomorrow ;)


Doks

I think it shows exact weakness of your build. the deck is geared toward aggro/combo, control decks have easy matchup against you. Your build is superior than trad. in vs. aggro, but you need constant source of card advantage to in control matchup. One of the reason that I still use ophidian.

Doks
01-15-2007, 12:54 PM
As Maximus04 said: You have to pay attention to your metagame.
And imho I did this.

A thing to add to the control-MU against U/W Landstill:

First game I did not resolve a spell except 2 Impulse and 1 FoF as my opponent David played 4 FoW, 4 Counterspell, 4 Rune Snag, 2 Mana Leak, 2 Spell Snare.
Quick Mishrabeatdown gave it to me in the end as all my solutions to it were just countered.
After this round he smiled at me and said that he probably had drawn godlike.
In the second game I was stuck on only 4 Islands for several turns while he was still beating down with 1 Mishra, 2 Conclaves and still having countermana available (now you may have an idea how much land he had =P).

Against Hannfish (U/W/B):

To be true, I never played against this deck.
After a Duress he saw myself with 3 CotV in my hand (-> dropping Meddling Mage naming the chalice) and my Vedalken Shackles were needlet.
I nearly could not do anything.
Same in game two:
A Chrome Mox powers out a 1st turn Chalice of the Void which just got forced.
Next turn I manaleaked a confidant, then drew a FoW (-> 3 cards in hand, 1 FoF, 1 Land and this FoW) and passed.
He Duressed me, taking the FoF, then dropped Meddling Mage naming FoW.
My topdeck then was a second FoW and some land when my life slipped away to Meddling Mage beatdown.


I am @ work now and don't know the exact list I played, but it looked like this:

14 Island
4 Fetch
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Chrome Mox

3 Morphling

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Impulse
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction

2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Repeal

In the SB the 6 BEB/Hydroblast plan against Goblins (boarding out chalice), some more Kegs/Shackles, the 4th FoF/Repeal and some crap that should have been the Back to Basics I wasn't willing to buy for about 6 Dollar a piece oO


The draw is more than cruel C.P. ;)

I mean, I traded some Ophidians to test without proxies, but the TfK/chalice+mox Engine is at least equal to the Ophidian's one.
The Strength I won some games was that things that normally disrupt control just didn't count for me.
Nonbasic-Hate, Price of Progress, Colorscrew, Spotremoval.
My opponents had so much dead cards against me (with chalice even more).
Ophidian would have given them some of those dead cards back.
Another point is, that in my build TfK nearly almost is a "draw 3, discard 1".
And TfK helps you to find answers in the early game much quicker than Ophidian (whereas I wouldn't count the time Ophidian comes online as early game ;) )


Except for Landstill I didn't miss the B2B and the Manabase is very constant.
So the ones of you who think a splash is needed - just try it out (I think I'll test a red one some time).


So far...


Doks

C.P.
01-15-2007, 04:26 PM
@Doks

TfK is good. However, it gives you 2 cards and that's it. I admit that Ophi being a creature is bad in a way that their removal is not dead, but when I tried TfK in an artifact heavy build, I ran out of gas eventually in control/aggrocontol matches and lost. Ophidian should not be played aggresively, since it acts more like a way of winning 50/50 situation. Keg/Shakles/B2B gets rid of blockers and you go for the card. Ophidian is amaging when both side ran out of gas, which happens quite a bit in aforementioned matchups.

About B2B, I found them to be MVP in the deck. It shuts down many decks in the format, and things like Rishardan Port is annoying at the least. I suppose it is metagame dependent, though.

I'm sold on Factories in your build. Looks like I'll have to replace my Quicksands.

Doks
01-15-2007, 05:07 PM
The idea with the factories came to my mind weeks ago.
But most importan, Maximus04 just brought them back into perspective me trying them out and finding them viable for tournament play.

Well, I even think TfK vs. Ophidian depends on our builds (traditional vs. modern any1? ;) ) and own experience, so I guess we're doing right playing our own style.
But there's some question for me:



Ophidian should not be played aggresively, since it acts more like a way of winning 50/50 situation


So why is Ophidian always a 4of?
You say you mustn't hurry to drop it, but by the time those situations develop you should easily have drawn at least one.
Before this happens, isn't he something like some kind of blocker?
And pitching it to FoW doesn't seem that good imho.

B2B:

I didn't mean to cut them all, but I wouldn't play them MB.
As I said I wanted them in the SB against Landstill. =)


Doks

C.P.
01-15-2007, 05:59 PM
Ophidian is 4-of because of its versatility. There are times that you want 1/3 wall to gain some time. Multiple ophies also acts as win condition, when your morphling are not available for some reason. Ophidian is one of those cads that you wann a see 4 or none. 3 might not be too bad(have not tested), but 2 is little too low.

EDIT: With factories, Ophidian being threat is not very valid, I guess.

EDIT(2): Here is my brief strategy on Ophidian

Vs. Aggro: Dropped on 5th turn at fastest, with UU open. If their assult is little bit too fast, can come down earlier. Keg + Phid on the board can stabilize the board quite a bit. After board has been swept, Phid will give you card advatage that is enough for the win. A single forbid in my build helps on utilizing the cards that Phid gives.

Vs. Aggro control w/ blue: They come down when you feel it is safe. First couple will get removed, and you don't really have to protectit if you do not have enough resources. If it sticks, with shakles.keg backup, you will win.

Vs. Aggro control without blue: Chances are that you are facing black. Put Phid down one they are out of gas. Play a little bit of aggro. Keep the confidant away from the board.

Vs. Combo: Gogo aggro phid. As long as you have counter backup, Play that phid and win the game. An active phid here means game.

Vs. Control w/ blue: I play teferi on SB, I feel that if either Phid or Teferi resolve it is the game. play very conservatively.

Vs. Control without blue: Don't spend much resources on phid if you're facing Removal.dec. Just resolve FoF then win with Morphling.

Vs. Solidarity: Turn 3 Phid is your god.

Maximus04
01-19-2007, 12:59 PM
Sorry for lack of participation in this discussion, school and preparing for JSS Regionals has kept me busy.

I participated in a 34 man Legacy event the past weekend(All of these players are planning on attending the GP Columbus in May) I did win the tournament with the modern build but here are some observations about both the traditional and modern build I'll also give you a quick summary of how I did.

Round 1 vs Affinity 2-0
Round 2 vs Burn 2-0
Round 3 vs Gur Thresh 2-1
Round 4 vs Goblins(no splash) 2-1
Round 5 - I Draw

Top 8
Quarter finals vs Iggy Pop 2-1
Semi-Finals vs Goblins(no splash) 2-1
Finals vs Guw 2-0

Notes about the Tournament
1) There was only 1 Solidarity deck at the tournament(which i lent to my friend, he hasn't piloted it much except for some random playtesting with me)
2) This wasn't DCI sanctioned tournament(unfortunately :frown: )
3) This was a very aggro meta
4) None of the new innovative deck from The Source or Star City Games Forums made an appearance.
5) I was the only player running a control deck that I knew of.

I am beginning to start preparing for GP Columbus so I will not be posting my decklist but Doks or C.P. is welcome to see it through personal message.

Questions for the Modern Build

Which is the best choice?

4 Chalice and 4 Mox
4 Chalice and 3 Mox
3 Chalice and 4 Mox

Should you even run fetch lands? Since there is no Brainstorm/Fetch trick are the fetch lands even worth it since it runs such low amount of lands in the first place and it's very easy to lose to mana screw?

Question for both Modern and Traditional build

Is Teferi a legitimate SB option against Solidarity/Control?

Question for Traditional Build

Isn't my original deck from SCG D4D good enough after you fix the Solidarity matchup(SB options) and add the Factories ?(The deck had great matchups with every other deck)


Sidenotes
Traditional build beats the modern build in the mirror match 60-40 unless you have a few tricks up your sleeve...

I haven't seen any Landstill decks anywhere in the states Doks, but I'll playtest against them and make sure to be prepared. Always a bummer when you miss out on the Top 8. Make sure to pick up some B2B when you get the chance :wink:

Kadaj
01-19-2007, 01:29 PM
I've spent a very long time (more or less since your list was posted) testing the matchups of the traditional build and I can assure you that unless you're the biggest lucksack on earth your matchups are not all that great against everything. Good Threshold players will go 50-50 with you both pre and post board, Goblins is at least 60-40 in their favor pre-board and about even post board, and random aggro can be somewhat problematic. It seems at this point that we've taken different directions with the deck. I've been attempting to abuse the hell out of Back to Basics and Fact or Fiction with this deck, because they are, in my opinion, the most objectionally powerful cards in the deck. Chalice can potentially be equally powerful, and it is certainly a good addition to the deck, but I've chose to leave it primarily in the board at this point.

Anyway, for the modern build I think you want 3 Chrome Mox and 4 Chalice of the Void because Chrome Mox is a card that, while it is very good at accellerating into Chalice and having turn 1 countermagic up you don't really want multiples in your opening hand whereas multiples of Chalice are not necessarily dead. Teferi is certainly viable against control in both builds if you feel it is necessary and it can be a random speedbump against Solidarity.

The main reason I wouldn't want to add Factories to the traditional build is because they absolutely suck with B2B out. You really don't need blockers in this deck, you have enough creature kill and bounce/steal so that a 2/2 blocker really won't help you all that much. It is an offensive tool, however, which can be randomly useful, but I think the trouble of possibly keeping you off UU in certain hands, which is absolutely crucial, and sucking under B2B is why I would keep them out. However, my build is centered around B2B, which is why that's such a huge issue for me. If your build cares less about that interaction then by all means add them in.

Out of curiousity, in testing has it appeared to be that Traditional MUC beats up on control and combo pretty well whereas Modern MUC has better aggro and combo matchups while sacrificing some of the control match?

C.P.
01-19-2007, 01:42 PM
Question for both Modern and Traditional build

Is Teferi a legitimate SB option against Solidarity/Control?

Question for Traditional Build

Isn't my original deck from SCG D4D good enough after you fix the Solidarity matchup(SB options) and add the Factories ?(The deck had great matchups with every other deck)


Regarding Teferi as SB option - He is quite good. However you need to make sure that you drop him fast enough. I use 4 chalice + 3 Teferi in SB, and it prooved to be pretty decent. the matchup goes 50/50 after SB.

About your original list, I used a version with 1 more fetch and a single random forbid, and it proved to be quite good. I find all the matchups to be fair, there isn't an autowin, but every matchup is winnable. after inclusion of factory, I found that thresh matchup just got better.

Even after all this, I'm not sure if this deck will be viable anymore. Extirpate, due to the nature of the card, just destroys the deck. There is not much option but abandoning trad. build and go to the modern build, if the card sees play.

Kadaj
01-19-2007, 02:13 PM
I'm slightly curious, how does Extirpate hurt the Traditional build more than the Modern one? No one is going to be maindecking that card, which means you'll have Chalice post-board to deal with it. The decks are very similar in every other way really, so unless you do something stupid like discard a Morphling and they Extirpate it (which isn't necessarily even that bad if you won game one). Yes Extirpate hurts when it hits FoW, ect, but you have Chalice post board in both versions of the deck anyway, as well as other counterspells if they do remove a set of Force of Counterspell itself.

Am I missing something other than that?

C.P.
01-19-2007, 02:22 PM
@ Kadaj

In Traditonal build, the fastest chalice coming down is turn 2. It usually cannot afford to play an aggro chilce. Extirpate is faster than chalice, and the decks that runs it can utilize the slight edge that the card provides.

They tend to shake the game with fast disruption first, forcing me to counter. as long as counterspell is in GY, you're done. The builds here only runs 2 kind of hard counters(3 if you run forbid), and losing one of those usually means you will be allowing them to wreck you. Mana leak or Disrupting Shoal is not an ideal counter in long, dragged out match.

EDIT: So this is what happens.

1. Early disruption - Counter - Extirpate - no late game for you.

or

2. Early Chalice - Allows a crucial spell to resolve - Just lose.

Kadaj
01-19-2007, 02:34 PM
Actually, my variant of the so-called traditional build runs Chrome Mox as well to accellerate into counterspells faster, but that may not be a normal adoption. If the traditional build is not playing Chrome Mox then all it means is Chalice comes down on turn 2. Extirpate on turn 1 really doesn't do anything because unless they have some outrageous hand like Dark Ritual, Hymn, Extirpate, and you don't have a force, there won't be any targets. It IS crippling when it does resolve, even against the modern build, but that card is less effective against MUC than certain other decks because MUC is based on redundancy of threats/answers, so losing Force isn't as devastating as say Solidarity losing all of its High Tides before comboing off.

In any case one card is not enough to warrant the total unviability of a deck, no matter how much it hurts them. 3 color control builds (think Truffle Shuffle) are absolutely reamed by Blood Moon (yes I realize Blood Moon is 3cc and counterable but in this specific example neither case could really be exploited) but they're not unviable because of it. While Extirpate does hurt this deck it does not make it unviable. It does make the matchups against Red Death and Pikula (if they adopt this card) much harder, but beyond that what deck really scares you running this card?

EDIT:

If one spell resolves and kills you because you went turn 2 Chalice for 1 or something like that then you built your deck horribly wrong. There is a reason why Keg, Shackles, Repeal, whatever, are in this deck.

C.P.
01-19-2007, 02:49 PM
Actually, my variant of the so-called traditional build runs Chrome Mox as well to accellerate into counterspells faster, but that may not be a normal adoption. If the traditional build is not playing Chrome Mox then all it means is Chalice comes down on turn 2. Extirpate on turn 1 really doesn't do anything because unless they have some outrageous hand like Dark Ritual, Hymn, Extirpate, and you don't have a force, there won't be any targets. It IS crippling when it does resolve, even against the modern build, but that card is less effective against MUC than certain other decks because MUC is based on redundancy of threats/answers, so losing Force isn't as devastating as say Solidarity losing all of its High Tides before comboing off.

In any case one card is not enough to warrant the total unviability of a deck, no matter how much it hurts them. 3 color control builds (think Truffle Shuffle) are absolutely reamed by Blood Moon (yes I realize Blood Moon is 3cc and counterable but in this specific example neither case could really be exploited) but they're not unviable because of it. While Extirpate does hurt this deck it does not make it unviable. It does make the matchups against Red Death and Pikula (if they adopt this card) much harder, but beyond that what deck really scares you running this card?

EDIT:

If one spell resolves and kills you because you went turn 2 Chalice for 1 or something like that then you built your deck horribly wrong. There is a reason why Keg, Shackles, Repeal, whatever, are in this deck.

Hymn to torach and his friends are not very friendly. Meet negator on turn 3 after turn 2 hymn. Or sinkhole + hyppy even. The deck is built around the assumpton that you are not going to let an undealable threat resolve. Negator is untouchable with keg or shackles until it is too late.

nitewolf9
01-19-2007, 04:53 PM
Suicide black is always going to be a nightmare match for MUC. That, along with the bad solidarity mu, is just something that needs to be accepted. It was why suicide was designed in the first place, to beat mono blue control decks. That point is neither here nor there.

C.P.
01-19-2007, 05:05 PM
Suicide black is always going to be a nightmare match for MUC. That, along with the bad solidarity mu, is just something that needs to be accepted. It was why suicide was designed in the first place, to beat mono blue control decks. That point is neither here nor there.

I guess I'll have to accept that. However, this deck's sui matchup is not that bad. 40/60?

Anyways, does not change the fact that extirpate will give you hard time against black control/fish/thresh/ETC

freakish777
01-19-2007, 06:04 PM
Hi.


1. Round: Simon mit Burn 2:0 win
2. Round: Robert mit *****/Madness-Mix 2:0 win
3. Round: Andre mit Mono-B Sui 2:0 win
4. Round: David mit U/W Landstill 0:2 loss
5. Round: Phillip mit Gobbos 2:0 win
6. Round: Fabian mit NQG/r 2:0 win
7. Round: Florian mit Hannifish 0:2 loss



Let me get this straight. You're 5-1 going into round 7 and you didn't Intentionally Draw the last round to make Top 8 (I assume there was a cut to Top 8)?

Doks
01-19-2007, 07:07 PM
My opponent didn't want to draw as there were about 6 players standing 5:1 and about 2 or 3 even higher, so I had to play.
Throwing a chair at my opponents head is not that kind of good solution ;)

//EDIT: http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Rankings/2007-01-R15.html

Here are the ratings (and final results), me (Marcel) @ 9th place.
There was - what a pity - no chance for a draw =/

Well, I really like that the discussion goes on as my next tournament is on sunday, 4th February.

There are 2 points that I don't feel comfortable with the traditional build:

1. No acceleration in a 1st turn counter (except Fow ;)) and into early TfK/FoF as they really slap you out of tricky early games

and

2. I don't like the build to rely on only 3-4 FoF as your main card drawing spell (I count Brainstorm and Impulse for CQ/Cantripping).

TfK gives you objective 2 cards, but virtual you gain 3 as you wouldn't have played this late chrome mox or chalice, so it nets you 3 cards at some extent
(hope you understand what I mean =)).




Out of curiousity, in testing has it appeared to be that Traditional MUC beats up on control and combo pretty well whereas Modern MUC has better aggro and combo matchups while sacrificing some of the control match?


That's exaclty what I think, too:

As C.P. noticed from my MU, the modern build can really wreck any combo (except Solidarity ;)) and handle especially non-goblin aggro much better.
Chalice 1 and Shackles are some kind of Lock against any Threshold version, for example.
Therefore, you have some more disadvantages in the control MU.




Questions for the Modern Build

Which is the best choice?

4 Chalice and 4 Mox
4 Chalice and 3 Mox
3 Chalice and 4 Mox

Should you even run fetch lands? Since there is no Brainstorm/Fetch trick are the fetch lands even worth it since it runs such low amount of lands in the first place and it's very easy to lose to mana screw?




That's what I am wondering, too.
At last Germany's D&#252;lmen I've gone with 3 Mox and 4 Chalice.
You do want an early chalice almost every game.
And if it gets countered, you needn't get nervous as there is a good chance of drawing another one.
Krosan Grip even becomes very popular there, so 4 is the right number imho, as it even counts for the artifact count for TfK.
And a Chalice 1 can never be that bad, right? =)

The Mox's acceleration on the one hand was awesome:
It saved me game1 against Goblins as I was able to manaleak the 1st turn Lackey, then playing a 2nd turn TfK getting the Repeal to handle the Vial =)
In some other games, I even longed much more for the vital acceleration.
On the other hand, there was the very unlucky situation where I sat on my seat with 4 cards, 3 of them being Moxen.
But just before losing the game I set up a double TfK for the win ;)
So I think there are more advantages then disadvantages, so I think I will definetely go and test the full playset.


@Fetchlands:

I think it depends on the Manacount.
I played 21 Lands and 3 Moxen. Now I would up the count to 25 adding the 4th Mox.
The modern build even needs much mana for the final Morphling and double EOT FoF action ;)
I woudn't run less then 12 basic Islands, but shuffle effects can't be that bad, I don't know to what extend the thinning effect works.

@ Maximus04:

I would really be pleased to have a look at your list, I'm going to PN you ;)


So far, let the battle begin ;)


Doks

Clark Kant
01-19-2007, 08:14 PM
Peter Rotten,

I think 4 Silent Arbiter in the sideboard will go a long way in shoring up the goblins matchup.

All you have to do is use your countermagic to keep the card in play, and you can really set goblins back.

What do you recommend cutting from the sideboard to make this happen?

Also, I just wondering but what advantage does this deck have over landstill. It seems like goblins has similar matchup percentages except that it has a better gameplan against Goblins.

C.P.
01-19-2007, 08:42 PM
Peter Rotten,
Also, I just wondering but what advantage does this deck have over landstill. It seems like goblins has similar matchup percentages except that it has a better gameplan against Goblins.

Not folding against wasteland or nonbasic hate is the biggest thing. And it is more spell based, and its sweepers are not mana intensive. B2B is another good advantage as well.

Blair Phoenix
01-21-2007, 09:40 PM
Peter Rotten,

I think 4 Silent Arbiter in the sideboard will go a long way in shoring up the goblins matchup.

All you have to do is use your countermagic to keep the card in play, and you can really set goblins back.

Counter doesn't help when they cycle Gempalm Incinerator to kill Arbiter :P

Doks
01-22-2007, 03:52 PM
And modern Goblins have a w-splash for Swords and postboard Disenchant.



Peter Rotten,
Also, I just wondering but what advantage does this deck have over landstill. It seems like goblins has similar matchup percentages except that it has a better gameplan against Goblins.


Well, U/W's Goblin-MU is not that much better than MUC's ones.
Against Solidarity, both decks have a bad MU.
Grow depends on the build and the process of the game, e.g. if U/W resolves an early WoG or MUC an early CotV.

Therefore, MUC has - as C.P. said - a very consistent, hardly attackable manabase - one of the most important points in a control deck.
In addition, MUC is not weaker in the non-goblin aggro Matchups.
And MUC has a better non-Solidarity Combo-MU due to its nature and - one of the best inclusions in the modern build - Chalice of the Void.


Some general:

Currently, I am wondering about the latest questions, especially the one about Fetchlands in the modern build not playing Brainstorm.
Is there someone who has got information available that shows the effect of Fetchlands so we can decide if it's worth to pay life for them?


Doks

Complete_Jank
01-22-2007, 05:00 PM
Peter Rotten,

I think 4 Silent Arbiter in the sideboard will go a long way in shoring up the goblins matchup.

All you have to do is use your countermagic to keep the card in play, and you can really set goblins back.

What do you recommend cutting from the sideboard to make this happen?

Also, I just wondering but what advantage does this deck have over landstill. It seems like goblins has similar matchup percentages except that it has a better gameplan against Goblins.

Clark, don't want to be too rude, as I often see things the same as you, but Peter Rotten hasn't posed since the first post. You might want to go back through and reread some of the thread.

Kadaj
01-22-2007, 05:03 PM
And even the first post was actually written by me >_>

In any case, Silent Arbiter was tested to shore up aggro matchups, but the only aggro matchup that we really struggle with is Goblins, and the uncounterable factor of Incinerator makes Arbiter really bad in that matchup.

The major advantage this deck has over Landstill is that it has twice as much (in some cases) countermagic, and a more or less Wasteland proof mana-base.

Clark Kant
01-23-2007, 02:20 PM
Thank you for the well thought out responses everyone. :)

Clearly, I don't have much experience with the deck, I was under the impression that it had a very bad goblins matchup compared to landstill since the deck is so reactive and didn't have sweepers like Deed or Wrath/Disk to clear away an army.

I suggested Arbiter because I had started running Silent Arbiter in Fairie Stompy to bring in versus goblins and have been happy with the results. It's farily easy to lure out a gempalm. No one ever expects Arbiter and the card has singlehandedly won me games.

This deck has a lot more countermagic to stop things besides gempalm but also has fewer creatures to lure gempalm out with. So I think you guys are right.

-----------------------------------------------------

My last concern. Some people here seem to think that the newer builds with Chrome Mox and Chalice and no Brainstorm!! are better. This deck has done relatively well every single time it was played and none of those builds included Chrome Mox/Chalice despite being very recent builds.

Is there some unity to the idea that the builds with Chrome Mox and Chalice and no Brainstorm are the better builds. Or is it split up between those who like the traditional build and those who like the chrome mox build?

C.P.
01-23-2007, 07:47 PM
Thank you for the well thought out responses everyone. :)

Clearly, I don't have much experience with the deck, I was under the impression that it had a very bad goblins matchup compared to landstill since the deck is so reactive and didn't have sweepers like Deed or Wrath/Disk to clear away an army.

I suggested Arbiter because I had started running Silent Arbiter in Fairie Stompy to bring in versus goblins and have been happy with the results. It's farily easy to lure out a gempalm. No one ever expects Arbiter and the card has singlehandedly won me games.

This deck has a lot more countermagic to stop things besides gempalm but also has fewer creatures to lure gempalm out with. So I think you guys are right.

-----------------------------------------------------

My last concern. Some people here seem to think that the newer builds with Chrome Mox and Chalice and no Brainstorm!! are better. This deck has done relatively well every single time it was played and none of those builds included Chrome Mox/Chalice despite being very recent builds.

Is there some unity to the idea that the builds with Chrome Mox and Chalice and no Brainstorm are the better builds. Or is it split up between those who like the traditional build and those who like the chrome mox build?

The goblins matchup is not bad at all. It is 45/55(main) at worst if you know what you're doing. Only two cards represents a huge problem for you that you cannot deal with quick enough, lackey and vial. These can come down on turn one and both will cost you the game if left untouched. However, that's about it. other threats in the deck can be dealt with the cards you have, and once morphing hits the board you will win the game. Powder keg might no look like it, but it is a very good board sweeper. blowing it at 1 or 2 will stabilize the game, with help of ophidian(if you run it) and veldarken shackles. Post sideboard, BEB provides even more answer to first turn lackey.

Arbiter is just flat out bad. It requires you to reach four mana, and tab out(unless you are thinking that playing him on turn six is good), then it is subject to StP/pyrokinesis/Incinerator/and other removals.

The deck is more permernant oriented than landstill, and countering everything is far from what the deck does.

Clark Kant
01-24-2007, 04:30 PM
You have a good point, but lackey and vial are still 8 cards, on avg they see 2 per game but many games they see more. Many games I've played against goblins with other control decks, they often draw multiple copies of each, sometimes as many as 3-4. I don't mean you any disrespect, and I agree with a lot of your posts but I just don't see how this deck has close to an even matchup against goblins. I am in the process of building it however so I guess I will find out for myself one way or another.

Doks
01-24-2007, 05:19 PM
You must know how to play against them.
Against Goblins with the modern build, I really try everything to stop the lackey - as it is written in the primer.
The point is: with CC1 and if they are on the draw you only have FoW [Disrupting Shoal in rare cases] which allows them to slip through the counterwall.
But chances are equal in a 60 card deck to them have the lackey and us the FoW.
I really don't wince when there's a frist turn vial. With counters equal or less than the number of 3 it is even not half that dangerous.
The Keg and Repeal really shine here and the Moxen help to build up the counterwall very early.
Then it goes like C.P. said:


These can come down on turn one and both will cost you the game if left untouched. However, that's about it.

Doks

C.P.
01-24-2007, 06:22 PM
You have a good point, but lackey and vial are still 8 cards, on avg they see 2 per game but many games they see more. Many games I've played against goblins with other control decks, they often draw multiple copies of each, sometimes as many as 3-4. I don't mean you any disrespect, and I agree with a lot of your posts but I just don't see how this deck has close to an even matchup against goblins. I am in the process of building it however so I guess I will find out for myself one way or another.

Doks said it all and he is absolutely correct here, but let me go through a simple goblin matchup primer.

turn 1 vial/lackey is what you need to keep out of the board. Vial messes with how you control the game and lackey speeds up the game in a way that you can't keep up.

other threats:

Warchief: I don't like to see him on the board, but it is not the end of the world. In traditional build, blowing keg for him is not good for you because you lose your phids. If the opponent had handful of card, he should not resolve. If not, he is just 2/2 that you can deal with shackles/quicksand/factory

Piledriver: Yes, your creatures cannot block him, so he is annoying. But usually not worth countering. The chances are whether you lost or the driver is not going to get bigger then 3/2

Vial/Lackey(not turn 1): Depends. if keg can deal with these, then do so. If not, counter. but remember that both of them need some time to be truly dangerous.

Fanatic: Are you at 1 life?

Matron: Don't Counter tutors.

Ringleader: One spell that should not resolve for the whole game. If you resolved couple of FoF, then you might be able to deal with whatever that's coming, but still.

Siege-gang/Shooter/Kiki: Keep them away from the board if you can. It is one-ofs most of times.

As you can see, you really don't need to push yourself that much. In some games you do not see FoF or other cards to lead you to the late game and you are forced to go for the early morphling.But it works better than what most people think.

Any suggestion on the content is appreciated.

Doks
01-25-2007, 08:51 AM
I don't have much time, so just a throw-in:

The big weakness of Ophidian is that it really is slow, sometimes too slow.

So is it worth a try to play Phid in the modern Version with its Mox?
Against Combo, it can come down turn two and becomes a blocker for Lackey on the play =D ;)

What's your point of view?


Doks

C.P.
01-25-2007, 12:52 PM
@ Doks

One of the reason that I do not like the mox is the card disadvantage it provides. While ophidian does give you the cards back, it is slow. In the mordern builds, TfK is better than phid for giving you the cards. If you include TfK, I don't think there is room for the Phid. However, chalice for 1 and phid has a synergy, since the chalice keeps most removals in check, automatically protecting Phid.

So play it if you have a room for it, but I doubt it. Tfk is too important in your build to cut, I think.

tianyuan
01-26-2007, 04:09 PM
From Planar Chaos:
Pongify - U
Instant (U)
Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated. Its controller puts a 3/3 green Ape creature token into play.


Lacky/Warchief begone?

C.P.
01-26-2007, 07:44 PM
From Planar Chaos:
Pongify - U
Instant (U)
Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated. Its controller puts a 3/3 green Ape creature token into play.


Lacky/Warchief begone?

Then deal with 3/3 that eats factory/Quicksand? I like the card, but I don't see it in the deck. I know that you can repeal it, but that makes how many dead card against combo?

EDIT: Welcome to the source and MUC thread, tianyuan.

Doks
01-27-2007, 12:36 PM
Then deal with 3/3 that eats factory/Quicksand? I like the card, but I don't see it in the deck. I know that you can repeal it, but that makes how many dead card against combo?


Right.
The problem is, that the problematic creature you handle this way still becomes a thread and puts pressure on you.


Doks

One of the reason that I do not like the mox is the card disadvantage it provides. While ophidian does give you the cards back, it is slow. In the mordern builds, TfK is better than phid for giving you the cards. If you include TfK, I don't think there is room for the Phid. However, chalice for 1 and phid has a synergy, since the chalice keeps most removals in check, automatically protecting Phid.

So play it if you have a room for it, but I doubt it. Tfk is too important in your build to cut, I think.

For sure, I would NOT cut TfK for it. ;)
I mean, in the past Type2/Standard MUC played Thieving Magpie just because it had the Mox to bring it online Turn4, because otherwise it would have been too slow.
Except in any pure Aggro-MU an early Phid may really be a thread the opponent has to handle - no problem if he/she uses a sword on it, that won't hit your factories.


Doks

Poron
02-03-2007, 12:00 PM
Pongify + Powder Keg (0) or Echoing Truth is big..

this pongify is nice.. but already have answears to creatures..

Doks
02-03-2007, 12:13 PM
Pongify + Powder Keg (0) or Echoing Truth is big..

this pongify is nice.. but already have answears to creatures..

Which ends up in an 2:1 trade... Not in the sense of the deck, for sure.


I tested Ophid in the modern build instead of Impulse (25 Manasources) and they were great.
With chalice one, it comes through almost all time creating big advantage.
I did not use the full playset, but 3 seems the right number.



Doks

Poron
02-03-2007, 12:34 PM
doks may you share your current decklist?

C.P.
02-03-2007, 02:53 PM
I tested Ophid in the modern build instead of Impulse (25 Manasources) and they were great.
With chalice one, it comes through almost all time creating big advantage.
I did not use the full playset, but 3 seems the right number.



Doks

Cutting Impulse sound great. I haven't thought of that. since you have TfK, you still can dig for answers. But Doesn't it effect the versatility of the deck? I thought the modern build gave up the brainstorm. Does this mean that You don't run any cheap dig spells anymore?

Doks
02-03-2007, 08:11 PM
Well, I'm gonna share it after my tournament this Sunday.

Yeah, I do not run any cheap Searchspells.
Therefore, I pointed out the 25 Sources of Mana to underline, that I actually don't need to search for Mana (that was imho the main job of Impulse; 3-4 Impulse replace up to 2 lands, so cutting them means bumping up the Manacount [in my case to 25, 4 Moxen, 21 Lands]).

@C.P.:

The versatility is not affected as much you can think:
In the first turns, Impulse is great, avoiding a too early Morphling and collecting needed Counterspells, but later on it cycles more or less for nothing where TfK/FoF/Ophidian do the better job.
And this "later on" is the game state where MUC wants to go and reach for the win ;)


Doks

C.P.
02-03-2007, 11:15 PM
Well, I'm gonna share it after my tournament this Sunday.

@C.P.:

The versatility is not affected as much you can think:
In the first turns, Impulse is great, avoiding a too early Morphling and collecting needed Counterspells, but later on it cycles more or less for nothing where TfK/FoF/Ophidian do the better job.
And this "later on" is the game state where MUC wants to go and reach for the win ;)


Doks

I agree, but I'm worried that you will need to dig 4 card in the beginning. All of your draws cost 4 or more if you drop impulse. The deck sometimes need to dig for the Shackles/Keg so it can go to the late game. Brainstorm has anti synergy with the chalice for sure, but dropping impulse and relying on FoF/TfK might be too dangerous. Playing Phid in the chalice/mox buuild is still very interesting, and it is Something I'll test extensively.

Good luck in your testing.

Doks
02-04-2007, 04:05 PM
So, I've finished the tournament with an unsatisfactory 3:2:2 -.-
I've only played against 1 competitive deck, that was TES (discussed in another thread, just have a look ;)), the rest were some weird random piles, I guess I'll have to visit Germany's Iserlohn as there is a more professional Meta.
The TES-MU ended in a draw as the extra turns were announced when we wanted to start game three.
I lost to a U/G Thresh/Madness-Mix with first turn Mongrel followed by tripple Rancor and second game and to 43-Land-Build with Manabond and couples of Manlands and LftL (<- I hate this card btw as it is with Cyclelands a constant 3:1 trade MUC can't keep up with^^").
As I had the control in the early lategame I did not find my Morphling (they were in the last 5 cards) so I wasn't able to get through the Manlands with my Ophids und Factories.


But I'll now stop complaining and I am going to the more important things:


14 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Factories

2 Morphling
3 Ophidian

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction

3 Repeal
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Powder Keg

4 Chrome Mox


Right: As I find in the testings, cutting Impulse for Ophidian does not hurt compared with the advantages Phid provides:

1. Modern's Mox makes Ophid fast and effective in every non-pure Aggro-MU.
2. Phid giving Modern a source of constant card drawing, not only relying on spells.
3. Synergy Chalice 1 + Ophid (=Most removal is prevented).



Point 2 is the most important:

I won games with 2 Phids on the board killing my Opponent with pure CA - I was nearly dying as I had very few cards in my Library left ;)


The deck sometimes need to dig for the Shackles/Keg so it can go to the late game

Well, you have the Mox:
Very often I had the scenario of T1 Island, Mox -> Counterspell/Chalice, T2 Island, TfK and T3 Island, FoF what mostly turns into surviving the early game.

With 25 Mana Sources, you mostly have 2 in hand and likely draw the 3rd one.
Otherwise, CC2 Counter keep you alive till the 3rd one.

Tfk/FoF are still crucial as Chalice is.

But as Maximus PNed me, I will soon try out B2B main, even with the factories.
And I really want to add a 3rd Morphling.
I lost games as I did not find the needed Morphling which is more than annoying =/

I'll try replacing Delta with Islands too.


Doks

C.P.
02-05-2007, 12:11 AM
I feel that the Deltas are not needed here. You don't have brainstorm, and Brainstorm + fetch(and impulse in less degree) is why the card is there. I feel that lose of life + danger of stifle overwhelms the advantage of deckthinning.

About the phid, that was why I was defending the space for it in the deck. I still believe that the phid is one of the most important card in the deck.

The third Morphling will turn the deck into more of a aggro control. You will see morphing in your early hand more that you would like. However, since you run pleanty of mana source, you might be able to pull off an aggro morphling wins in most cases.


I was trying simmilar build with 4 factories and 2 B2B main(instesd of repeal), and 4 phid, and It was satisfactory but I felt that the early game can go horribly wrong sometime just beacause you can't play that 2nd mox. I still think the deck needs some cantrips.

barron
02-05-2007, 02:22 AM
I used to play a MUC deck that did very well locally (I never entered into a big event, but did play against top decks). But I got extremely bored with it so I switched to solidarity. I just don't have the personality for control. What worked *very* well was the combo of 4 parallax tide and 4 stifle MD. I know it sounds odd, but hear me out.

The strategy was to not play *anything* but counters and draw your first couple turns (no ophidians), and make sure to let the spells through that you can deal with later so you won't be baited to a misplay. Once you made it to your 4th turn you play the tide and wipe out X counters depending on your situation (usually just 3/4 to remove all their lands) After that, if you don't already have the stifle in hand you still have a turn or two to search for it since you will still have a remaining counter on the tide, then just stifle the tide and they have no more lands. I *never* lost a game when tide hit the table. With all the counters they just can't recover, and with their lands gone they really can't counter the stifle.

This is the build as best I remember

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle
4 Parallax Tide
4 Impulse
2 Vedalken Shakles
2 ? (opts?)

1 Meloku
1 Masticore
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian

22 Island
2 Quicksand (for the piledriver)

SB
4 (3?) Back to Basics (ruins thresh and landstill)
I can't remember the rest of the SB

That isn't the exact decklist, but the best my memory would permit. One thing to notice is the lack of brainstorm and fetchlands. I started without them since i didn't have the ones on color at the time, but once i started using them i switched back and here is why....consistency. With 4 Tides and 4 Stifles I found it much more consistent to just keep the stack as is and DIG DIG DIG with impulses, opts, and ophidians. If you don't believe me (which i am sure you don't since people's commitment to brainstorm is more dogmatic than anything else, *TEST* it yourself).

Masticore seems a little off, but i would take meloku out before him. He and Ophidian clench the game against just about any deck once you have the tide start (including - and especially - goblins).

Another great aspect of the deck is that it isn't at all dependent on the two card combo. Lone stifle can cripple fragile mana builds on it's on and Tide slowed decks down enough to throw out meloku, morphling, Shackles or whatever, and once those are down with protection it's usually GG.

There was only one reservation I had about the deck. It's power on the play made it seemingly invinciple, but on the draw the game was significaly harder, but certainly winnable. I can't remember how i coped with that in the SB, but there were ways to manage it.

I should add this was a deck i played about 8 months ago and there are cards that can definitely benefit if from the new sets, like teferi in the sb or possibly MD.

But really, the deck is *a lot* stronger than it looks. You should really just test it out.

Maximus04
02-05-2007, 02:41 AM
I am still debating the 4th Chrome Mox but i agree the early acceleration is very important to this deck. I'll test some more and find out, though the deck tends to have more success when you get the the early Chrome Mox out.

Even though Doks has been disagreeing against B2B it should at least be a sideboard option. I still run a random 1 of because of ridiculous terrible match ups like 43-Lands. Though it may be a better sideboard option, its a meta call.

The third repeal or the third morphling? Which one is more important? I can't call, but I think since there is the lack of deep drawing(Impulse) and shuffling techniques(Brainstorm) maybe having a 3rd Morphling is very important since you will have better odds getting one because most of the mid to late game you are just getting stalling till drawing into a Morphling. Meloku(when he was legal during standard) reminded me of Morphling, once you untapped it was like you played the card that says "I win."

Why should the deck have more cantrips? It runs some of the best competitive draw power in MTG and anything that isn't for utility(like kegs, chalices, and shackles) are trying to gain you CA.

C.P.
02-05-2007, 10:47 AM
I am still debating the 4th Chrome Mox but i agree the early acceleration is very important to this deck. I'll test some more and find out, though the deck tends to have more success when you get the the early Chrome Mox out.

Even though Doks has been disagreeing against B2B it should at least be a sideboard option. I still run a random 1 of because of ridiculous terrible match ups like 43-Lands. Though it may be a better sideboard option, its a meta call.

The third repeal or the third morphling? Which one is more important? I can't call, but I think since there is the lack of deep drawing(Impulse) and shuffling techniques(Brainstorm) maybe having a 3rd Morphling is very important since you will have better odds getting one because most of the mid to late game you are just getting stalling till drawing into a Morphling. Meloku(when he was legal during standard) reminded me of Morphling, once you untapped it was like you played the card that says "I win."

Why should the deck have more cantrips? It runs some of the best competitive draw power in MTG and anything that isn't for utility(like kegs, chalices, and shackles) are trying to gain you CA.

Because all the utillity in the deck is 2-ofs, and without cantrips like Brainstorm/Impulse, the 2-of strategy is not as effective as before. Yes, TfK and FoF digs, and they are good, but it is 3/4cc, thus slower than Brainstorm/Impulse. I always felt that those cards justifies the decks 2/2/2 utility split.

Doks
02-05-2007, 12:39 PM
Even though Doks has been disagreeing against B2B it should at least be a sideboard option. I still run a random 1 of because of ridiculous terrible match ups like 43-Lands. Though it may be a better sideboard option, its a meta call.


Of course, I had it in SB ;), but there was no second match to use it =/

My SB was:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Powder Keg
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Repeal

The thing is: in about half the games B2B would have been very useful MB, but in the other half totally useless.
That is not the problem because of pitching it to Mox/FoW or discard it with TfK, but the thing is:
It can be a dead card Mainboard that takes space for other cards who are not this MU-specific.

Repeal vs. Morphling:

I really like Repeal as a 3-of:
It bounces nearly whole Legacy, even Eternal Dragons and full grown Exalted Angels.
But its more important job is to deal Needle, Werebear, Vial, BTS - all the problems that may resolve too early so you deal with them the traditional way: Bounce -> Counter.
And this while slowing them down without any card disadvantage.


The third Morphling will turn the deck into more of a aggro control. You will see morphing in your early hand more that you would like. However, since you run pleanty of mana source, you might be able to pull off an aggro morphling wins in most cases.


Well, and this was the way I won 2 whole rounds by just going for the early Morphling - where early means with 8-9 Sources of Mana ;)
Many decks just loose to a resolved Morphling without any chance as they don't run Mass Removal or are not able to force it through.
And if I had that damn Morphling earlier I would have even beaten the 43-Land deck =/
And with 3, it does not hurt imprinting it to Mox or pitching it to the FoW as it was for me when I had one in my opening hand.



Doks

C.P.
02-05-2007, 04:28 PM
Well, and this was the way I won 2 whole rounds by just going for the early Morphling - where early means with 8-9 Sources of Mana ;)
Many decks just loose to a resolved Morphling without any chance as they don't run Mass Removal or are not able to force it through.
And if I had that damn Morphling earlier I would have even beaten the 43-Land deck =/
And with 3, it does not hurt imprinting it to Mox or pitching it to the FoW as it was for me when I had one in my opening hand.
Doks

By early morphling I meant with 5-6 mana source for the win.:smile: I forgot about the fact that the mordern version uses more ways of ditching a dead card. 3 Morphlings sound pretty viable in that way. About B2B, it gets almost half of the field(even goblins lose their Port/Splash Duals) and with all that Mox/FoW, I don't think you will have problem of having a dead one in hand.

Doks
02-05-2007, 04:55 PM
And this are the reasons why I'll try some MB, too. Guess you convinced me ;)
I never could imagine playing MUC without B2B at least Sideboard.
I know how strong the card can be, but I doubted it strength MB. I think I will have to rethink something.

And I'm going to look for the 3rd Morphling.
Now there's the question: what to cut?
There are some kind of staples that I really do not want to touch.
Let's wait and see.


Doks

Kadaj
02-05-2007, 08:52 PM
I built my entire version of MUC around abusing B2B and found that it crushed the matchups that mattered and was inefficient in the ones you lose anyway. The philosophy I was operating under was that unless I wanted to make 6/8 matchups suck for the sake of the other two, which aren't even that popular, I would just optimalize the 6/8 matchups and hope for the best.

As testing went on it became clear the B2B reams Thresh, 3 color control, Rock esque crap, decks with Rishadan Port/Manlands (read 43 lands, Loam, Goblins, ect), and more or less anyone that leads with duals against you.

Obviously, in some metagames this isn't a viable strategy because you can't assume there's going to be decks that B2B is effective against, but then again, how likely is it that the field is going to made up by mono-colored decks in the majority? Hell, I went 5-0-1 in a local tournament after playing against San Diego Zoo 3 times and raping with B2B after stabilizing with Shackles and Keg.

In the modern build, which I haven't really tested, I have no idea what you would cut to add B2B to either the mainboard or the sideboard, but my advice is to look long and hard at the Arcane Labs in the Sideboard and decide whether they're worth it or not.

Doks
02-08-2007, 12:10 PM
Space is really a problem:

The only cards I could imagine to cut are:

1 Mana Source (rather a land than a Mox i guess)
1 Repeal (even if I am really not convinced)
1 Counter (would be Mana Leak, but then the Mox looses strength)
1 Chalice (would be the same with the Leak)

Therefore, I'd like to squeeze in 1 Morphling/1Ophidian and at least 1 B2B, preferably 2 B2B.


Do you think there is the possibility of weakening the artifact-theme in Modern (means -1 Chalice, -1 Mox, -1 TfK) to make room for other important cards?


Doks

C.P.
02-08-2007, 11:44 PM
I've been testing my moden build, and I did not like it.

The first problem was that there was too few blue card to make mox/FoW matter. I ran 25 mana source like Doks, and found myself to be mana flooded. cutting an island would not be a problem. When I was playing the deck, the problems that I was worried about occured. The first one was that 2/2/2 split was not effective anymore, and my utillity cards were not showing up as much as I would like. THer other one was that if you did not see the TfK, you will have to let a very critical thereat or two resolve. Other than that, the deck worked fine. It's solidarity matchup was better than the traditional version, since it ran 4 maindeck chalice.

Still, I'm thinking about going back to the old traditional with some tech to beat solidarity. The older version was more of an all-round control, which I liked quite a bit.

Doks
02-09-2007, 09:09 AM
The first one was that 2/2/2 split was not effective anymore, and my utillity cards were not showing up as much as I would like.

Well, I don't see the problem here:
In my experience, that one card Impulse digs deeper than TfK does not matter in most cases.

I assume with Utility you mean: Keg/Shackles/B2B, right?

At which point of the game do you want to see them that early that Impulse is the card that would give them to you?
The time you can play TfK instead of Impulse, TfK is almost always better as it can create CA and at least gives CQ.
And Impulse doesn't even guarantee you the Utility you're searching for.
For example, an unlucky shuffle and both the B2B are in the lower half of the deck.

And what do you mean with


THer other one was that if you did not see the TfK, you will have to let a very critical thereat or two resolve

?

Being out of answers is always critical, but I don't know how TfK is guilty for that.

C.P.
02-09-2007, 12:03 PM
I was in hurry to write it, so I guess I had not made my point well.

With Brain + fetch + Impulse, you get to see a fair share of your deck. As many people can tell us, Brain + Fetch provides amaging CQ. Impulse also surves the function as well. with 4+ fetches, you can minimize the effect of unlucky shuffle as well. Tfk digs for three. It is an amaging card, but as far as digging is concerned, it is not all that better than impulse. So without this early card cycle, you look lees of your deck than the trad. build.

And with Mox + FoW, the card disadvantage was too great. Only way of solve the problem is TfK or FoF, which cost 3/4. So you end up having less cards then your opponent, which was not that great. Phid, FoF, TfK sheres a weakness: it is slow. And if you don;t hav the early game, you will not get to have a late game.

Doks
02-09-2007, 12:18 PM
Now I get it =)

Well, obviously this is right.
I think this is how these two decks differ:
Traditional uses Card selecting in the slots where Modern uses its "Lock"-Components like Chalice and its acceleration in form of Mox.
So this ends up in Modern relying on strong, but late CA and Traditional using Card selecting and a weaker drawengine.


Phid, FoF, TfK sheres a weakness: it is slow

This is why you play the Mox - all these cards are much stronger when they come down 1 turn earlier.


Maybe one could try a version which combines both advantages.

http://mtgsalvation.com/10-the-basics-of-blue-in-legacy.html

Maybe something oriented on the BBS list unter point 5, second deck?



Doks

C.P.
02-09-2007, 12:32 PM
Now I get it =)

Well, obviously this is right.
I think this is how these two decks differ:
Traditional uses Card selecting in the slots where Modern uses its "Lock"-Components like Chalice and its acceleration in form of Mox.
So this ends up in Modern relying on strong, but late CA and Traditional using Card selecting and a weaker drawengine.



This is why you play the Mox - all these cards are much stronger when they come down 1 turn earlier.


Maybe one could try a version which combines both advantages.

http://mtgsalvation.com/10-the-basics-of-blue-in-legacy.html

Maybe something oriented on the BBS list unter point 5, second deck?



Doks

You must be joking if you're trying to say that the BBS in that article is way too go...lol

I think the version that we should follow is T1 BBS. Yes, we do not have man drain, but BBS with FoF strongly resembles the deck that we are making.

So some basic lines that I see.

'Modern' Versions have a lock components, and artifact reliant. Random artifact hate can hurt the deck quite a bit. (I played against a deck that runs maindeck Null Rod. It was not funny)

2/2/2 split is not very effective in a way that the deck goes for more of an card volume than card quality.

More blue cards are required, since almost half of the deck is colorless.

Some possible solutions.

1. Put more accelerations and turn the deck into accelerated blue. Well, We do not have grim monolith anymore.:frown:

2. Just up the blue count and stick to what we have. Utility slot will have change, but other plans stay as it is

What do you think?

Clark Kant
02-09-2007, 02:57 PM
To me, it makes sense for the deck to stick close to the build that had far and away the most success in this format...

Monoblue Control
A Legacy deck, by Glenn Anderson
5th place at a StarCityGames Duel for Duals tournament in Roanoke, Virginia, United States on 2006-10-08

Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian

Enchantments
2 Back To Basics

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Force Spike
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak

Lands
15 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Quicksand

Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Repeal

I could see an arguement for cutting Brainstorm and Force Spike for Chalice of the Void (to help versus combo, Thres, Red Death and a lot of other decks that have gotten very popular recently) and making up for the loss of card draw by playing an additional Impulse and Fact of Fiction

But beyond possibly...

-4 Brainstorm
-3 Force Spike

+4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Impulse
+1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Veldalken Shackles/Island/Powder Keg/Morphling

I don't think any other changes are really worth it.

Chrome Mox is nice, but it is very bad card disadvantage for an effect no where near as important as Force of Will.

But that's just my personal opinion.

C.P.
02-09-2007, 03:30 PM
To me, it makes sense for the deck to stick close to the build that had far and away the most success in this format...

Monoblue Control
A Legacy deck, by Glenn Anderson
5th place at a StarCityGames Duel for Duals tournament in Roanoke, Virginia, United States on 2006-10-08

Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian

Enchantments
2 Back To Basics

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Force Spike
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak

Lands
15 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Quicksand

Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Repeal

I could see an arguement for cutting Brainstorm and Force Spike for Chalice of the Void (to help versus combo, Thres, Red Death and a lot of other decks that have gotten very popular recently) and making up for the loss of card draw by playing an additional Impulse and Fact of Fiction

But beyond possibly...

-4 Brainstorm
-3 Force Spike

+4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Impulse
+1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Veldalken Shackles/Island/Powder Keg/Morphling

I don't think any other changes are really worth it.

Chrome Mox is nice, but it is very bad card disadvantage for an effect no where near as important as Force of Will.

But that's just my personal opinion.

Just to let you know, the list above was discussed throughly and the changes you have made was discussed as well.

Chalice is a proactive card. It is useless once that 1cc threat resolves and hit the board. the only way of preventing it is to put it down as fast as possible. That's why the mox build uses the card. In traditional build(refers to the build above, and I myself is quite the defender of the build as opposed to newer build with mox), chalice is slow and not dependable. Force Spike in the deck is a way of dealing with early threat, along with FoW. If you want to give the same role to the chalice, then you need to play the chalice as soon as possible.

Some people already went through this, but 4th FoF is very suboptimal. you have it stuck in your hand way to much. being able to tab 4 mana is not something that happens often. FoF is amazing, but we have to play fair(read: no Mana Drain) and tap 4 lands for it. 4th copy is win more card in the late game and does not really help you going through the late game.

if you're going to stick with the trad. build, chalice should stay in the sideboard. Chaice = Mox in MUC.

Kadaj
02-09-2007, 04:14 PM
The changes you've recommended have been tested ad nauseum, as C.P. pointed out, and believe me, Chalice without mox absolutely sucks. You NEVER tap out on turn two for a sorcery speed "proactive" (I say this because on turn two it's likely the threat you wanted to stop has already resolved) defense that won't save you from the 2cc threat you would've otherwise countered. Once you start playing Chalice later than turn 2 you're playing it far too late to be relevant.

However, there is something I will argue heavily for, and that is the fourth FoF. You can call it whatever you like, unnecessary, too expensive, ect, but the fact of the matter is that card wins game. It allows you to play Chrome Mox and Force of Will in the same deck and not kill yourself through card disadvantage. It lets you go all out to stop your opponents early game and still have a late game to back it up. I'm not just waxing lyrical either, I've been testing my build in tournaments, testing sessions, what have you, for around half a year now, and I still say the biggest innovation that made the deck better was cutting Brainstorm to add in the fourth Impulse and the fourth Fact or Fiction.

Calling the fourth Fact or Fiction a win more card is really misusing the term "win more". Resolving a FoF in a situation where you death isn't already on the board can swing a game dramatically. I've beaten Thresh almost entirely off getting 4 for 1s out of FoF, and that's after using perhaps multiple counterspells protecting that FoF. Yes, if you resolve 4 Facts in a game you'd probably have won without the 4th of them, but the same is true for arguably any of them past the first (the second is debateable depending on the matchup, but if you resolve a THIRD FoF in a game you might as well have already won). Does that mean you should only run one? Of course not. It's a card you want resolve as often as possible, and is absolutely crucial to this decks gameplan of dealing with the card disadvantage of things like FoW and Chrome Mox.

As far as a 2/2/2 split between B2B, Keg, and Shackles it should look something like this 3/3/2, with the numbers on B2B and Shackles depending on the metagame. If you expect more aggro-control and control (think Thresh/Hanni Fish and Landstill type stuff) you want 3 B2B, because that card either singlehandedly ruins their gameplans, or severely impedes them. If you expect more Goblins and mid-range aggro you want the third Shackles instead, because Shackles makes your mid to late game that much better and two of them active at the same time can easily end the game against any aggro.

One thing I would like to test more extensively with anyone who's got the time is Rune Snag vs. Mana Leak. Without getting too deep into it I can say that they both have strengths and weaknesses, and as far as I can tell there has been very little testing to attempt to figure out which is more optimal in this style of deck. It may not be that important, but identifying what are the necessary and unnecessary evils in a deck is the best way to improve it, which is what we should be aiming to do here.

C.P.
02-09-2007, 05:06 PM
I once tried rune snag in place of Mana leak, and concluded it to be suboptimal. In the early game, especailly aginst midrange aggro contorol decks, having 2 mana open is not a problem. Rune Snag start to suck earlier than Mana leak, and that difference is usually crucial. Thresh or Fish can have 4 or 3 mana easily, but not their 5th mana. After they achieve that crucial threshold(not the game mechanic), RS is better, but somtimes that difference cost you the game. Even against goblins, Difference between 2 and 3 Mana open is crucial and the cost is high, usually letting a Warchief or Ringleader resolve.

Still, Mana Leak suck after that phase. So my soluton was to run a singleton Forbid. It is much better than what everyone thinks, for sure.

About that 4th FoF, I find that when I can saftly resolve the card, I tend to have the card anyway, so I think 4th one is overkill.

Poron
02-09-2007, 10:54 PM
the big difference between Mishras and Quicksand is that Quicksand allows you to play B2B and I would never play this deck without

C.P.
02-10-2007, 12:11 AM
the big difference between Mishras and Quicksand is that Quicksand allows you to play B2B and I would never play this deck without

Quicksand is as dead as the Factory under B2B. Quicksand goes away after taking care of X/2. Factory goes away after it takes out X/3. Factory and B2B does not have sinergy, but the same is true for the Quicksand as well. Factory is more versatile on top of that.

Doks
02-10-2007, 11:35 AM
@ C.P:


You must be joking if you're trying to say that the BBS in that article is way too go...lol


I meant orienting, not copying the list from the article ;)
For sure I would not run the full playset Powder Kegs for example.
I wouldn't even play this version without the Mox.
But I think relying on this "Lock"-Components is Modern's strength.


Chalice without mox absolutely sucks. You NEVER tap out on turn two for a sorcery speed "proactive"

QFT.
But here comes the question from Maximus04: 4th Mox or not?
With the 4th, you maximize your chance of having one in the opening hand to make that 1st turn Chalice happen or they give the possiblity of first turn Counterspell/Mana Leak.

The problem I see is that every version of MUC has the problem of answering a dangerous 1st turn thread on the draw without the Force in an acceptable way.
Traditional has Force Spike getting dead as the game goes on, Modern the Mox creating disadvantage.


//EDIT:

Mana Leak vs. Rune Snag.

I noticed like C.P:
In the early game, Mana Leak means 3 Turns delay for the opponent to cast his/her spell without the risk getting it leaked.
That turn usually means a Mana and a card more for the MUC-player what is a very big difference.
In addition, with B2B Leak does not loose its strength so hard and in Counterwars Leak is always a very annoying card for the enemy not rarley ending in winning the war for the MUC-player.


Doks

C.P.
02-15-2007, 06:03 PM
Now I'm back to the traditional build. What I notice now is that the deck can handle vast range of decks and does not have a bad matchup except mean ol' Solidarity.

So here is the ultimate question: How do you beat solidarity with traditional MUC?

The addition of factory gave the deck slightly better clock. Now Things like Mana Maze or Arcane Lab actually win you the game. With factory, I felt that the Teferi is not need much.

So what sideboard options can you use?

1. Arcane Lab: 3 mana and being an enchantment is slow, but does the job once it is out. It really helps against those pesky Remand. The downside is that you cannot play any spell first after this resolves.

2. Chalice of Void: strong, also useful against thresh and burn. Not very useful by itself, or if it hits the board too late.

3. Dandan: A reasonable clock. Not very useful in other matchups.

4. Teferi: Good, and it will win you the game, but expensive and slow. Having flash does help, though.

Kadaj
02-15-2007, 08:28 PM
The traditional build of MUC literally cannot beat Solidarity. It, frankly, won't happen. Hell, even the modern build will likely get its ass handed to it by Solidarity, and it plays MD chalice with ways of getting it out on turn 1, as opposed to traditional, which can only play Chalice at 1 on turn 2.

As much as I'm all for constructive discussion on how to improve matchups, this is one matchup that is just hopeless, especially for the traditional build of MUC. Hell, if I ran traditional MUC in a tournament I wouldn't board for Solidarity at all. I would just concede and move on. Your only hope is having 2 or 3 forces in hand with food for them and getting Teferi and Lab lock down. Beyond that, you're fucked. And even then, chances are you'll never actually resolve that.

However, if you really want to board aggressively for Solidarity 4 Lab and 3-4 Teferi are a good start for the Traditional Build. Anything else is likely overkill.

Doks
02-27-2007, 01:59 PM
Even for "Traditional Build" I would suggest the Factory-Beatdown.
Siding the B2Bs out for Labs and maybe add some Chalices.
That hopefully will slow them down enough to give you time for 9-10 attacks.

Otherwise, my "strategy" is not to be paired against Soli ;)
I wouldn't care about this MU so hard. It's the same option some U/W Landstill players prefer. Just hope that Soli is kept down on the lower tables by Aggro and Sui or that Soli is not played that much (what it actually is).
Neither you're going to board aggressively - as Kadaj mentioned - or do not pay too much attention to the MU and make others safer.


Some other thing:

I'd like to advocate everyone to test Kadaj's way of 4 Impulse and 4 FoF ánd therefore cutting Brainstorm (making slots free).
If you do not like it, return to your personal preference, but I am going to try it out at Germany's next Dülmen after some testing behind me.


Doks

Doks
03-04-2007, 04:37 PM
Sry 4 double post, but I will present some results I did today at Germany's Dülmen.
I went 5:0:2 (Draw against Goblins and Pox (o.O)).
I beat 3 Rock/Survial, R/W Anti-Landstill.dec and - more important - Solidarity.

The List (Kratzeis.dec):

MB:

19 Island
3 Chrome Mox

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare

4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Repeal
2 Powder Keg
2 Back to Basics

3 Morphling


SB:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Powder Keg
1 Spell Snare


Some notes on the Soli MU:

He takes a Mulligan down to three. That were very good conditions ;)
But game two I took a mulligan.
Here appears the strength of a lowered land count:
I let the High Tides resolve and concentrate on countering the first draw spell.
As I resolve a Chalice for 1 he concedes when I drop the Morphling and he has just one Cunning Wish left.


The Survival/Rock-MUs worked out all the same:
First getting hit by Duress/Therapy, then just recover and hurt them with B2B.
Drop a Shackles/Morphling, counter the Deed and go for the win.


General:

B2B MB are just good - the opponent is thrown back several turns.
It just generates so much tempo advantage and buys time.
And rapes players who do not care about basic back up =P

Spell Snare is great, too - very useful against Soli (;)), Survival, Werebear, Hymne, Sink Hole, Small Pox, Remand etc. oO
For just one blue Mana (!).

Vedalken Shackles as a 3-of were the right choice.
Even in the harder Control-MU they stalled the Board and prevented Mishra's Factories vom damaging me too much.


So far,

Doks

C.P.
03-05-2007, 12:00 PM
Sry 4 double post, but I will present some results I did today at Germany's Dülmen.
I went 5:0:2 (Draw against Goblins and Pox (o.O)).
I beat 3 Rock/Survial, R/W Anti-Landstill.dec and - more important - Solidarity.

The List (Kratzeis.dec):

MB:

19 Island
3 Chrome Mox

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare

4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Repeal
2 Powder Keg
2 Back to Basics

3 Morphling


SB:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Powder Keg
1 Spell Snare


Some notes on the Soli MU:

He takes a Mulligan down to three. That were very good conditions ;)
But game two I took a mulligan.
Here appears the strength of a lowered land count:
I let the High Tides resolve and concentrate on countering the first draw spell.
As I resolve a Chalice for 1 he concedes when I drop the Morphling and he has just one Cunning Wish left.


The Survival/Rock-MUs worked out all the same:
First getting hit by Duress/Therapy, then just recover and hurt them with B2B.
Drop a Shackles/Morphling, counter the Deed and go for the win.


General:

B2B MB are just good - the opponent is thrown back several turns.
It just generates so much tempo advantage and buys time.
And rapes players who do not care about basic back up =P

Spell Snare is great, too - very useful against Soli (;)), Survival, Werebear, Hymne, Sink Hole, Small Pox, Remand etc. oO
For just one blue Mana (!).

Vedalken Shackles as a 3-of were the right choice.
Even in the harder Control-MU they stalled the Board and prevented Mishra's Factories vom damaging me too much.


So far,

Doks

Very interesting build. But why no brainstorm when you run CotV in SB?
Other than that, it look promising. gotta try the build.

Doks
03-05-2007, 12:43 PM
But why no brainstorm when you run CotV in SB

Two reasons:

1. To make CotV totally one-sided after boarding.
2. I did not want to thin out the deck with Fetches, which are indeed needed if you run Brainstorm. If you don't have the possibility to shuffle, I felt the 2 cards you put back on the top of the library to be disturbing, just like stopping the fluency of your game.
The argument to make 1-land-hands keepable is mostly irrelevant - I mulled every Hand without two sources of mana - except one game where the risk was worth it ;)

Some other notes:

I really <3 4 FoF - you're going to chain from one into the other.
And in this version they are very strong, as with this low landcount the quality (quality in form of concentration of Spells) of cards is very high (had about 40% FoF with just 1 or no (!) Mana Source) which is just broken as it makes FoF much harder to pile.
The Impulse were great too, but I was very happy that I had two additional TfK on board.
This Compilation runs very smooth.

The Moxen are worth their slots, but I can remember them winning me just 1 game - against the Goblins as 1st turn counter are what you need.
I could imagine cutting them and bumping the land count by 1-2, making 1-2 slots free (4th Spell Snare is a very hot candidate!).


Doks

Maximus04
03-10-2007, 03:19 PM
Congrats on doing so well at the tournament. Some questions and observations about your deck.

Why made you decide chalice needed to come out of the side instead of being mainboard?

I still don't understand how you can win against the solidarity? Your match up is very week game 1. Post Side, the match up does improve with chalice, but how do you put them on a clock to win?

What made you decide against Ophidians?

Do you think the 4th mox is needed? Can you still have an explosive start with only 3?

Isn't Force Spike better than Spell Snare since it doesn't limit the countering to just 2CC?

_________________________________________________________________

I do see your points with the 4th FoF and with such a low land count. It does get better on the flop :) I'll try out your build and let you know how it goes for me.

Doks
03-10-2007, 07:45 PM
Why made you decide chalice needed to come out of the side instead of being mainboard?


Well, I thought Chalice MB to be a good idea. So far, so good. But that was it *full stop*.
Take a second look on the chalice: Do you fluff sth. gamebreaking against the majority of decks?
I think Kadaj posted sth. that sounded like this:

"Don't MB Chalice if you can not be sure that it pays off. If Chalice ist just an idea that may sound good, do not MB it."

There I think he is right.

Against decks like thresh/non-Soli-combo, Chalice MB is a bomb.
But I think you can not play it because of the assumption you MAY be paired against them.
Any other Counter would do the same job, but better as it can counter any other single spell.

I always wanted to try out the Spell Snare und it was just an impulse to try it - and it did very well, it was a direct hit in 6 out of 7 Rounds.


Isn't Force Spike better than Spell Snare since it doesn't limit the countering to just 2CC?


Spell Snare counters the target spell without any condition. Counters that get very weak as you get into the later game are bad and risk your control.
And isn't Chrome Mox like a Force Spike accelerating into 1st trun CC2 counter?
In addition, against every deck except Goblins it is at least useful.
Survival/Sui/BW-Confidant/Hannifish/Grow/Solidarity: they all run 4-X CC2 spells you really want to deny.

At the moment I can imagine a build with more CC2 countermagic (Rune Snag in addition to Mana Leak).
Therefore, we'd have to tweak the deck and the 4th Mox becomes very attractive:


Do you think the 4th mox is needed? Can you still have an explosive start with only 3?


What do you mean by explosive start?
For me, Chrome Mox serves following things:

1. Accelerating into turn 1 countermagic, making Force Spike needless.
2. Accelerating into an early FoF - there is a big different if it comes down EOT turn 3 or 4.
3. Protection against Boil/Sinkhole/Armageddon.
4. Less used, but still an option: playing like accelerated blue the early Morphling.

I really like a Mox in the opening hand, but running 4 means:

1. Higher chance to have 2 in the opening hand
2. Draws that are dead until the TfK comes



I still don't understand how you can win against the solidarity? Your match up is very week game 1. Post Side, the match up does improve with chalice, but how do you put them on a clock to win?


First game, my opponent took a Mulligan down to three on the play - giving me 5 cards more than my opponent.
I do not "waste" much space to the SB for Soli.
I follow a very simple plan I used to play some month ago:

I let all the Tides resolve, giving me the possibility to play all my countermagic against them, then counter the first business spell.
During their EOT, I play FoF/Thirst/Impulse and rise the counters in my hand.
The process above repeats some more times:
They will try again to start a "mini"-combo and I end up winning the counterwar, thanks to Spell Snare against their Impulse/Resets.
I did not have any pressure - I just wait until I have about 10 Mana open and play the Morphling.
Post-board, Chalice did a good job, I then proceeded as in game 1.


What made you decide against Ophidians

The last tournament I found Ophid to be the reason of my unsatisfying performance:

1. It turns the deck into another direction, Forbiddian. I found MUC to be more Draw-Go style, which Ophid does not fit in.
EOT FoF is more powerful than a Phid the enemy can response to.
2. Without Chalice MB, every common spot removal kills Phid.
3. Blockers: e.g., the Sui player had just a tiny weeny Withering Wretch: Preventing my Phid from coming through.


I am very tired, if you do not get the point, don't hesitate to ask a second time. ;)


So long,

Doks

Arsenal
05-17-2007, 03:06 PM
wow... so inactive. i take that as a bad sign? any new developments? have the newer sets affected MUC greatly? or is it destined to be mid tier in legacy?

Maximus04
05-17-2007, 04:54 PM
The deck is just is still around...It Top 8'd at a GPT, so don't entirely dismiss it. I wouldn't be surprised if It makes a comeback at the Grand Prix this weekend.

From what I hear...the deck has involved much since this thread died, right Doks? :wink:

Jak
05-18-2007, 02:22 AM
I actually think MUC could do quite well. MUC's biggest weakness IMO is that the win condition was not fast enough. But I have been trying to incorporate flash. Thoughs on a list. Mine is very rough, but I think it could work.

Lands 21
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polltued Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
7 Island

Combo 9
4 Flash
4 Hulk
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Body Snatcher
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Kiki
1 Karmic Guide

Draw 12
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor

Control 18
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Misdirection
2 Counterspell
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth

SB
4 Pongify
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Morphling
4 Fact or Fiction

The SB is really bad. Pongify is mirror tech. And Summoner's Pact is for Gobbos to win quickly. The last 7 were there for the hate to board in against aggro-control decks. I just threw in some of my favorite cards. Thoughts.

Doks
05-18-2007, 10:45 AM
Looks like a Mono-U Hulk Flash Jak. *lol* ;)

Last Germany's Dülmen with MUC (not a good result, don't want to talk about that -.-')


MUC's biggest weakness IMO is that the win condition was not fast enough

There is a problem but it's not the speed, it's the cost.
The moment you tap (out?) for a Morphling MUC has a hard time to keep control with 5 Mana less, especially the boardposition.
Usually, after Morphling resolves, the opponent can drop Meddling Mages/Werebears/Mongeese they would otherwise have kept and you still loose the game even if you have Superman on the board now.
Therefore, I added a Single Teferi that does not only wreak opponent's countermagic but solves the above problem, too.


From what I hear...the deck has involved much since this thread died, right Doks?

That could be right guy =P
But for now I am waiting for the Columbus results this Weekend as it is a very meaningful event with all the new decks that may now show their strength (Hannifish, Hulk Smash any1?)


Greetz,

Doks

Jak
05-18-2007, 11:14 AM
There is a problem but it's not the speed, it's the cost.

Yes that is what I mean. Costing five is not good. Which makes it slow when you need to get it down on turn 5, you leave yourself vulnerable.

And the deck is MUHF. LOL. Just thought it could be a win-con.

C.P.
05-18-2007, 11:28 AM
Been a while, guys.

What I found in the Hulk Meta is that you really want chalice to shut Duress, Extirpate, Cantrips, ETC down, as these cards are played frequently.

Solidarity is as good as dead, so the matchups got a lot better, though. B2B is still really strong against those fish type of decks, and same applies to shackles and keg.

About the HanniFish Matchup, I have a friend who was obsessed with the deck since last year, so I played against it quite a bit. The matchup is favorable(60%ish) assuming the traditional build with phids and no mox. Since everyone and their cats will be playing extirpate, that's the only thing that worries me.

EDIT: Oh, I've been playing against Jack Flash as well, and found that you need stifles or trickbinds somewhere. Stupid Hulk.

Doks
05-18-2007, 02:30 PM
At least the modern version (Mox: yes, Chalice: no) has a rough MU against Hannfish as my experience was.
1st Turn Duress, 2nd Turn Mage, then Needle (naming Shackles/Keg) und avenger ftw -.-
Because of Daze they win the early important counterwars leaving your stronger countermagic in the mid - lategame irrelevant until the trash is on the board. (0:2 against FlodO)
So what does the "Traditional Build" have cards that make the MU so much better?
(Anyway, newer developments may change this as Maximus04 mentioned).

Therefore, I can "reveal" some techs that have proven very power - and useful:

1. Spell Snare. As I wrote before, this is such a strong choice in the whole legacy format, I simply do not want to miss.
It is something like a tempo boost (countering Werebear on the draw for U) as it is a tool in counterwars as my next choice is:

2. Misdirection

Awesome, nice synergy with Teferi (forcing him through EOT or redirecting Swords in the opponent's Mainphase) but more important hosing aggro-control (NQG/Hannifish) and Sui/Pikula/Deadguy/Ying&Yang/etc.

Currently I am running this:

4 FoW
4 Counterspell
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
2 Misdirection (-1 MD, + 1 Leak if you go for the full set of Moxen).


I run 4 FoF and 3 TfK to regain cards pitched to FoW/MD/Mox.



Doks

eternaldarkness
05-19-2007, 07:25 AM
This deck really looks interesting. I've always favored control tye strategies and this Draw-Go is the king of everything control. :)

A few questions though:

How is your Hulk Flash match-up? I guess you need stifles/ trickbinds...is the current maindecked permission enough of an answer? And is chalice for two against flash feasible?

What is the optimum amount of permission spells to run? Are they enough to fight against most forms of control?

Optimum win condition?
I think a mix of mrphlings and teferi with a set of Factories might be the way to go. (Aside: I know the Solidarity match sucks, won't Tefer make that better?)

How is your match-up against fish agro control decks? Won't the fast beatdown coupled with free countermagic give MUC fits?

And how do you fight against black-style disruption decks like deadguy ale or pox? Are they favorable?

I might really adopt this deck, it looks really cheap to build and is promising to become top tier in a combo metagame.

Kadaj
05-19-2007, 12:05 PM
Chalice for 2 is a bad idea because, although it does cut HulkFlash off from its namesake card, it cuts you off from the bulk of your countermagic. Teferi is not all that great against Solidarity due to costing 5, and equally bad against everything else for the same reason. Factory is good in the builds not running Back to Basics, but I'd argue that in the current metagame infested with 3 color aggro control builds not running Back to Basics are strictly inferior to the ones that are.

MUC really shouldn't be playing Morphling until it has around 8 lands in play, leaving enough open for a counter, a free counter, and the activation of Morphling's untargetability. I've been testing MUC constantly since HulkFlash reared its head because I firmly believe that maindecking as much countermagic and some combination of stifles/trickbinds should make the matchup good, while still keeping Keg, Shackles, and B2B as the way to keep your matchups against aggro-control workable.

My question is, which to play? Trickbind or Stifle? Stifle costing 1 as opposed to 2 is a huge advantage, but Trickbind doesn't leave the option of countering it open. Perhaps a split between the two?

Doks
05-19-2007, 07:18 PM
And how do you fight against black-style disruption decks like deadguy ale or pox? Are they favorable?


Sui is much easier as 8-Pox.
If you can handle Shade/Specte fast enough you will finally win as there disruption loses effectivness after the first rounds.
Keep away their fast clock and you will win.
Vedalken Shackles is a powerhouse in this MU. Drop it turn 3 and they will just die to it^^

8-Pox is some kind of hard as they play removal Morphling isn't immune to.
4 Pox, 4 Small Pox und 2-4 Edicts give you a hard time to do any damage without stolen creatures.
Therefore, I play a single Meloku in the Sideboard to avoid that problem and against Extirpate those decks may board.


How is your match-up against fish agro control decks? Won't the fast beatdown coupled with free countermagic give MUC fits?


I found the modern version to be weak against Hannifish even if Spell Snare and Misdirection are huge improvements.
Meddling Mage is a problem as you have just Repeal/Keg/Shackles against it.
Unfortunately, Mage names Shackles/Keg and the other card gets needled, so you have to repeal and then fight a new counterwar while you are beaten up by Grunts/Avengers assuming the opponent has no Mother of Runes to protect the Mage from the Repeal =/


What is the optimum amount of permission spells to run? Are they enough to fight against most forms of control?


4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak

is the core imho.

14-17 counters should be normal where at least 3 should be the "cheap counters" like Spell Snare and Misdirection.
I changed to

4 FoW
4 Cspell
4 Leak
3 Snare
1 Misdirection


So far,

Doks

thefreakaccident
05-19-2007, 08:03 PM
I have been playing MUC for a long time (years in fact)... throught my experiences I have found that this deck can overcome just about anything that gets trown at it.
Once you learn the intricicies of the decks in your meta, you can win outright. Recently I have made a two color version (UR) that has taken me into the top 5 at every local tourney I have played at (won 3 and placed T5 at 8).

I call the deck UR Funkling (I have a thread that's kinda dead right now in developemental about it). I have found that while the splash gets rid of 1 of our bombs (B2B), it significantly increases all of the MUs that people could ague that were 'bad'... The games that I have lost to were solidarity (that's about it, besides horrid hands/mulliganing to 5/4)... but solidarity was built to beat us, so it's not all that infuriating.

C.P.
05-20-2007, 12:49 AM
@ Doks

Force spike, and not pitching a card to your mana source, and being able to slowplay them gives the deck fair ground. Play around Stifle and Daze, and let things like grunts and Mage though, while Cut their ways of CA.

Maximus04
05-20-2007, 01:10 AM
This is what I took to the GP this weekend(6-3 Day 1), I did not make day two because of my misplays and mental mistakes. The deck is very good, but in truth, Red Death , Doks, and friends gave me the inspiration to try this out. I dubbed it Andy-K control

Andy-K Control(UwBS)

11-Island
2-Plains
1-Tundra
4-Flooded Strand
4-Polluted Delta

3-Morphling

4-Force of Will
4-Counterspell
4-Manaleak
4-Swords to Plowshare
4-Brainstorm
4-Impulse
2-Fact or Fiction
2-Powder Keg
3-Vedalken Shackles
1-Back to Basic

SB
3-Stifle
1-Spell Snare
1-Powder Keg
2-Back to Basic
4-Meddling Mages
2-HydroBlast
2-Blue Elemental Blast

LET ME EMPHASIZE that this deck is NOT UW Control, so lets get that straight. It merely splashes white to improve certain matchups while helping you out against fast aggro, such as goblins or zoo.

First things first, this deck has amazing matchups against aggro-control, which I didn't see at all today at the GP:frown:. Nonetheless, the format is unstable right now, so variations and adjustments will come after FS is legal. It also depends on if Flash is banned or not. The deck does need to improve it's Flash matchup. I played it 4 times today and only won half. I'll probably start a new thread with this decklist, since I think MUC just doesn't have what it takes to be consistent all the time. It just needed something that made it seem a bit more proactive(such as the Meddling Mages)

Even though everyone keeps talking about Teferi, He is VERY overated. I am not one to waste a counter on spot removal and with the sheer amount of it running around in this format. I wouldn't even want to loose my win condition to a STP.

Here are some talking points about the deck that will help evolve MUC

Should the Meddling Mages be MB?

Can there still be room in the deck for bounce?

What do you think would be some good inclusions to the deck to improve the Flash matchup?(assuming it'll be legal)

Could Chrome Mox help develop this deck?

Doks and I have been talking about this and different variations for about a couple of weeks. This deck would have been amazing if flash didn't come out of left field. Though I digress, this deck has potential to really come into it's own, but please remember. This is not UW control!

C.P.
05-20-2007, 01:18 AM
Should the Meddling Mages be MB?

Can there still be room in the deck for bounce?

What do you think would be some good inclusions to the deck to improve the Flash matchup?(assuming it'll be legal)

Could Chrome Mox help develop this deck?


Mages: Probably not. It does not offer much.
Bounce: No, unless you want to drop the removals.
Flash: Spell Snare, Perhaps?
Mox: I was never a fan of the mox, and since you can get rid of lackey/Vial more easily with white, I don;t see a reason to include acc.

thefreakaccident
05-20-2007, 02:24 AM
-there is absolutely no reason to run card disadvantage in a deck that thrives on card advantage (i.e. mega draw)... mox cannot be ran in any circumstance (while maintaining affectiveness that is)..

-there is no reason to have hate cards in the SB for hulk flash, unless it impacts other bad MUs (I still think that after the GP, they'll ban that without thinking twice). If you are really interested in screwing with them, you could run the split second stifle...


I think it is called trickbind.

I have also found that pithing needle is quite effective in the MD for goblins, landstill, and hulk flash (kiki kill).... with enough countermagic, there is no way you can loose (last I checked I ran 13 countermagic, who knew).

those are some other possible solutions to the deck overall, just in case it doesn't get added to the banned list.

do you think they'll restrict it in vintage? I don't think so, but they could.

Doks
05-20-2007, 02:28 PM
The bounce does not only fill the role of removal, it is some kind of vital as it keeps you playable.
As I pointed out, with all the control-tools e. g. Hannifish may use against you (Mage and Needle) naming Keg you do not really have a tool to take them out (stealing the mage with the Shackles does not mean you're going to get rid of it).
4 Mages and 2-3 Needles can easily take out Morphling/Keg - what makes it impossible to handle the problem later on if you do not play Repeal.

I do not like Mages MB as you usually play them if you are willing to attack earlier than Turn 6 =P
They are a aggro-control tool what MUC has no need for MB imho.
SB especially against Soli they are great, no question.

For the Flash MU:

Spell Snare may become a 4-of and I'd like to add 1-2 Misdirection.
Besides, I don't think Stifle MB should be the way to go.



Doks

eternaldarkness
05-21-2007, 08:46 AM
Thanks Doks for the answers to my questions. Pretty useful, IMO

I agree that Spell Snare should be added, main or side. Doks implied that Fish was a challenging match to say the least. Spell Snare is good against that, countering stuff like Meddling Mages and Serra Avengers all for one mana. Its also pretty good against most of the field, countering Flash, Sinkhole, Hymns, Werebears, Counterspell, Jittes and basically every card in CounterSliver.

One card that I think might be useful is Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale to help fight aggro and aggro control strategies. Plus I imagine it would be hell for a goblin player. Tech or jank?

Doks
05-21-2007, 03:06 PM
There are 3 reasons against the Tabernacle:

1. Goblins will be pleased to pay the 1 Mana to keep the Lackey in play and go for the win, same goes for double Piledriver and Warchief ;)
2. Wastelands.
3. It does not produce any mana, not even colorless! "Missing" a land drop this way will hurt very much in the first turns, where the Tabernacle may become rudementary useful.


Doks implied that Fish was a challenging match to say the least

This are only my experiences with the modern build. C.P. mentioned that the Traditional Build does have a better game, but I just have too less experiences to say anything to that.
But the "MUC with splash for W" with Swords may have a good MU, at least in theory ;)

Hummingbird TG
05-21-2007, 09:11 PM
Hey, you mean you haven't seen the StPs in the main? OOh, thats funny, I thought I saw them...

[ASIDE: You're still here...? o_0]

yellow knife
05-23-2007, 10:14 AM
hello.i'm japanese legacy player.yellow knife.
i cannot almost understand english...but i'm lovin MUC to and i often leads there.

Maximus04.yourUWBS is so good.
but this deck have only 57 cards in mainboard...why?
and i think that's good to change any of Powder Keg into Engineered Explosives.
that good for enemy's Pithing Needle.
if your enemy play Pithing Needle for keg,Crystalline Sliver ,Nimble Mongoose ,AEther Vial will kill you...

Maximus04
05-23-2007, 01:47 PM
I personally don't care what you call it, but thats what we dubbed it during testing.

I agree, Explosives are far better and much faster.

The only thing I wanted to express was that I really wish I could find a place for bounce either MB or SB. Some may think it to be redundent to run bounce with STP, but it definately helps stall or can help stabalize. You are in a load of hurt if they drop needle and name Keg(or explosives now) and you have no way to bounce it.

I wish there was something faster than morphling, but I could not find anything else as awesome of a bomb.

Doks
05-24-2007, 08:10 AM
WUBS' typical kill creature is Exalted Angel, but since this is a little splash and W has not become a coequal colour, the WW is not supportable with 2 Plains and 1 Tundra ;)
Therefore, I could Imagine a single DoJ or maybe 2 with 2 Morphlings.

1. It's a very robust Win-condition EOT, even for just 4-6 Tokens.
2. Makes you more resistent against the Needle.
3. A house against other Control.

If it is too clunky in your hand in the early game, you can just cycle it away.


Maybe a 1:1 Split MB Keg/EE ?

For bounce, I could imagine Echoing Truth and Repeal in a split.
Both have their advantages, especially Echoing Truth becomes more and more a viable choice imho as now the aggro-control decks play their disrupting permanents/Critters mostly as a 4 of (Meddling Mage/Werebear) or some have a higher casting cost such as Enforcer.
In addition, EE "counters" Decree and more important: Empty the Warrens!
A first round EtW for 6-10 Tokens is not uncommon and can wreck you faster as you can ask "Hey, I did not have a land drop yet and shall handle 10 1/1 Goblins?"

The 10.000$-question is now: what to cut?

The only things that aren't hurting so much when they are cut are imho:

1. 1 Land
2. 1 Shackles/Back to Basics
3. Some countermagic.

Yes, that's right, I'm talking about cutting countermagic.
Currently, I can think of cutting Spell Snares and replacing them with 1 Misdirection and 2 Bounce (1 Repeal/1 Truth or 2 Repeal).
Spell Snare really is a great card, but we must make some room for a necessary amount of utility.
In addition, I would like to add at least a third FoF as 2 look a little tick too less for me. They also ensure that you will not run out of countermagic.
Therefore, you can run the full playset Spell Snares in the SB being a surprise postboard.


Doks

thefreakaccident
05-24-2007, 11:31 PM
I would have to agree with doks, FoF is by far the best card in the deck (like brainstorm is in BHWC landstill)... Personally I like a red splash with burn in place of stp, but that is just me...
Has everyone forgot about ophidian?!!

it is almost a guaranteed constant draw engine against 50% of the decks in the format, and can still hit with the splice (kill blockers EOT, then get your cantrip on your turn).

FoF can easily be made a 3-4 of, just do to the fact that it is Never
a bad draw to see. It digs 5 cards (that's a rediculous number), and with brainstorm, for 5 mana you have looked into the top 8 cards of your deck... saying you have 53 cards after drawing your hand, then putting into account the draws you get until you have the mana to cast them... your probably looking at a good 10-15% of your deck on that turn alone.

this card by itself wins games for me.

get back to me on why you personally do not run ophidian, with or without splashes.

yellow knife
05-25-2007, 01:45 AM
11-Island
2-Plains
1-Tundra
4-Flooded Strand
4-Polluted Delta
3-Morphling(DoJ)
4-Force of Will
4-Counterspell
4-Manaleak
4-Swords to Plowshare
4-Brainstorm
4-Impulse
2-Fact or Fiction
2-Powder Keg (EE)
3-Vedalken Shackles
1-Back to Basic

+2 Repeal
+1 FoF
it's good.Because without ophidian,It is hard to get card Advantage.
we must be careful with Advantage...
and i like 2 B2B and 2 Shackles.
i can't draw B2B if i run that only 1 in my deck.
and i shink 4 STP and 2 Shackles is enough against beatdown.

if we run ophidian,i run like this.
-1 Morphling
+4 ophidian

these decks weak in hulk flash without snares.
but i think Immediately Flash deck will cannnot play in legacy...

Doks
05-26-2007, 07:30 AM
The issue Ophid has been discussed a lot in this thread.
Imho, it comes down to personal experiences.

In my experiences, Ophid has not proven to be worth its slots.

1. It dies to every spotremoval that otherwise is dead against you (Morphling ;))
2. Does not do its job as a blocker very well as it does not kill anything relevant in Combat (threshed critters, Mages and Warchiefs)
3. Tapping out on Turn3 has not proven very vital for a Draw-Go style MUC is.
I mentioned before that I think Ophid takes the deck more into the direction of Forbiddian.

At least, I think currently Phid is too slow in the Metagame of Flash Decks.
And all those aggro-controls may not be so frightened when they face a 1/3 blocker they can easily play around or remove.


it is almost a guaranteed constant draw engine against 50% of the decks in the format

Can you give me the names of at least 3 Decks where Ophid is useful against currently? ;)



Doks

Kadaj
05-26-2007, 10:01 AM
Fact or Fiction (and Thirst for Knowledge if you're running it) do everything Phid would do over the course of a game, and more. Not running 4 Fact or Fictions is a mistake, plain and simple. That alone is the card that allows MUC to play Chrome Mox, Force of Will, and maybe even Misdirection, and get away with it. It's always at least a 3 for 1, maybe even a 4 for 1, and it's an instant, which more or less seals the deal as far as which is better when comparing it to Ophidian. Thirst is also better for the simple reason that it's an instant, is guaranted to see you new cards whereas Phid is more likely to simply be blocked, removed, or otherwise dealt with. Even with Flash in the environment, this is still a format that either demands you be faster than aggro, or have answers to aggro. Dealing with a 1/3 is not difficult for decks in Legacy.

thefreakaccident
05-26-2007, 06:25 PM
well, doks... it hits against almost all combo decks, usually hits against most control decks, and usually gets contact against aggro control (remeber I run a red splice with creature control)... if it will not serve any purpose during game play, then it will not see the board (fow fodder)... but that is truely a rare occurance for me.

Just about every game he lets me draw just enough to win me the game (or blocks for stall measures).

these are my experiences with the card overall, I am not quite sure what your meta must look like to say that he is completely worthless... but my experiences may be tainted because I am talking tricktly about the version w/red splice.

Mono blue he is hard to be included sometimes.

Doks
05-26-2007, 09:17 PM
it hits against almost all combo decks, usually hits against most control decks, and usually gets contact against aggro control

I miss the three names =)

I mean, you say it hits against Combo.
Relevant Combo-Decks:

TES, Iggy PoP, Solidarity and last but not least Hulk Flash.
All of them are able to go off constantly Turn 1 - 3/4, Solidarity being the slowest.
When do you want to drop the Ophid then when not on time Turn3?
Even if you have the FoW, it is not very uncommon that they are able to play around 1 counter.
They have solutions, too, therefore MB, Duress/Grid/Swarm/countermagic and the like.
The argument "Then I will drop it later" is not a very good one, as the game heads very much into your favour the longer it lasts (exception may be Hulk Flash).


You write it "usually hits against most control decks":
Relevant Control-Decks:

Landstill (U/B and U/W, BHCW/Nick Trudeau style/whatever)
Rifter
Rock
Scepter Chant
WUBS/Angel Keeper/UWR Control


Afaik they will all be able to remove a single creature you play, especially the heavy-control Decks like Rifter/UW Landstill or they put a blocker into play. There will be no control playing opponent that will voluntary let your Phid get active.
You are right:
if you can bring an Ophid into play and protect it for 3-4 turns or more it gets you CA what may bring you the win in Control-MUs, but is spending counters on keeping it into play worth it the risk that other cards may resolve?
I like the counter in my hand more than the one I may draw with the extra card.
In addition, playing against some of them is like playing against Removal.dec where it just gives the opponent dead cards back.


and usually gets contact against aggro control

Well, this seems to be a very general phrase...
Ophid can get in contact with a treshed Mongoose and will die then - imho this counts as "getting in contact", too =P

Relevant Aggro/Control-Decks:

UWb Fish/Hannifish
********/NQG/Grow
Faerie Stompy
Counter Sliver

Here, our little snake has a doubled problem: they play removal and lay down critters, too.

Like Kadaj said, FoF/TfK are more effective than Ophidian in creating CA, they are more flexible and stronger.
You can use them to start an EOT counterwar and prepare some nasty actions for your own turn, too.

Neither can I forbid you nor do I not want you to play Ophid, it comes down to personal preferences and experience, but in a MUC list without splashes or the UwBS list from Maximus04 Ophid is a no-go imho.

You're version with a red splash may show other results, but wouldn't that be more some kind of URphid, making the deck more like Forbiddian?
I think that MUC =/= Forbiddian.



Doks

Maximus04
05-29-2007, 01:42 PM
11-Island
+2 Repeal
+1 FoF
it's good.Because without ophidian,It is hard to get card Advantage.
we must be careful with Advantage...
and i like 2 B2B and 2 Shackles.
i can't draw B2B if i run that only 1 in my deck.
and i shink 4 STP and 2 Shackles is enough against beatdown.

if we run ophidian,i run like this.
-1 Morphling
+4 ophidian

these decks weak in hulk flash without snares.
but i think Immediately Flash deck will cannnot play in legacy...

Yellowknife, I agree with you that a 3rd FoF needs to be put in place. The lack of card advantage in the deck is proven. I still think Chain of Vapors is better than repeal since speed of the bounce is very pivitol in helping stablize your aggro matchups.

Anyone suggesting Ophidian, They are just to slow in the format. I agree that can be awesome if you can get them to resolve and swing them a few turns, but that is very unlikely with all the spot removal in format. The reason I don't run Ophids is the same reason I don't run another win condition like Teferi or Meloku. You just don't want to waste your counters against spot removal.

Thefreakaccident, What makes the red splash better than the white splash? Is Lightening Bolt better than StP? Is there a better creature than Meddling Mage out there to help improve certain matchups while putting your opponent on a clock?

Doks, I think Decree of Justice is very viable. I think it's worth some testing(i'll def try it out after Regionals). I'm not completely sold on taking out the spell snares. They have been very useful on the draw in many matchups.

Everyone, If Flash is not banned the deck will have to re-event itself to handle that matchup. I guess we will find out where to take this deck on the 1st.

thefreakaccident
05-29-2007, 07:57 PM
I have tested the white splash, and while STP can be amazing, it is usually just as effective as bolt (while bolt can win you games just due to the available reach)... meddling mage is also quite underwhelming, because as you guys put out; there is a lot of spot removal out there.

If you guys want, I can post my decklist (the UR decklist) and I can give some explanations of card choices & other certain things... I will also explain how the MUs are affected if you guys are curious.. feel free to ask, because I have never been disappointed with the UR build (placing in T5 in every local tourney).

Doks
05-30-2007, 11:19 AM
meddling mage is also quite underwhelming, because as you guys put out; there is a lot of spot removal out there.


Well, I think you didn't get the sense of Meddling Mage.
He is to beat combo (disruption and pressure in one card) - and what combo-decks plays removal that is only for creatures?

- Solidarity wishes for a bounce
- TES may wish for Pyroclasm/Massacre
- Iggy Pop uses 1-2 Bounce MB
- Flash has Bounce MB and Massacre/Swords SB (the control version)

Against Soli/TES, it is very common to drop the mage naming the wishes (after the first on High Tide) or to counter them.
And the removal ist not the key point, but the thing is that it buys you much time AND does damage.
The concept of the deck really supports the mage:
lay down an early mage and protect it with counters while you have the clock on the board.
Later on, it is not uncommon with all that draw that you can drop a second mage.
In addtion, you can board the mage against problematic MUs like Enchantress/Loam-Decks which need another solution multiple countermagic.


StoP vs. Bolt:

The R-Splash in a blue-based control deck gives flexibility in form of being able to change roles and of multiple use of red removal.
But therefore, other cards must have at least a minimum of potential to support this plan, for example U/R Landstill does.
With its manlands and standstill it puts pressure on the opponent and the Burn becomes very helpful and provides a "combo-like" burn-finish.

But MUC takes bigger advantage from a W-splash right now (I don't think that I have to tell you about late-game or control choices of W like Dragon/DoJ/Exalted Angel/Wrath) as it provides the so called best creature removal in the format and a very good anti combo card. And finisher, if you are willing to test DoJ.
And there are too less cards that may provide this aggressive finish if you splash R, so why use R if W is better in this deck (THIS deck, I do not argue that W is better than R in general!).


I have never been disappointed with the UR build (placing in T5 in every local tourney).

Outer circumstances like Meta/Match-Ups you were paired against/number of contenders?
If you are a skilled player with an at least decent good deck it will be no problem to make top5 in a 10-20 people tournament with some unexperienced players and/or rogue-decks.


I'm not completely sold on taking out the spell snares. They have been very useful on the draw in many matchups.


I am not glad with this decision, too, but what would you rather take out?
I like the full set of Brainstorms and Impulse, they allow you to run that less land and harmonize with all the 2 ofs.
Maybe cutting Shackles down to 2 and cutting 1 Fetchland, but this is not enough space for all the new changes:

- an additional finsiher (DoJ) or maybe even 2
- a third or maybe fourth FoF (as you do not run TfK)
- 2 Bounce (Repeal/Truth/CoV)

It could be possible to cut some Mana Leaks in favour of Spell Snare, but right now I am just confused about how to fit everything into the deck.
Currently, I could imagine going up to 61 cards, but is this the way to go?
Dunno...



Doks

thefreakaccident
05-30-2007, 11:40 AM
well... the main tournament that I attend (weekly evry friday) is alos attended by BHWC (entire crew), as well as severl good unknowns and some other semi-ecperienced players with the occasional noob just getting into tournament play. I have found that the only combo MU that I personally have difficulty with is solidarity, which is why I personally opted to play the red splash (deals with aggro better, isn't dead against combo, and can quicken my clock against control).. aggro was always a tough MU for MUC, but with the red splash I have not lost an aggro MU since & I have never looked back. My deck is a little on the janky side, so I guess it would explain my win ratios and the sort. I do not have the time right now, but I will post my list later.

Doks
06-01-2007, 11:34 AM
Everyone, If Flash is not banned the deck will have to re-event itself to handle that matchup. I guess we will find out where to take this deck on the 1st.

This is not a problem anymore since today ;)

@ thefreakaccident:

I already had a look on your list and found it the way I thought it to be:
Your deck has many elements of an U/R-Phid which may explain our different experiences and your positive aggro-MU.
And it contains many cards that support the R-splash in the way I tried to explain in my post before with the flexibility and so on.
It is very similar to U/R Landstill and in this kind of strategy R is better than W. Plain and simple. =)
Your problems against Solidarity are just normal, that's the weird thing with Soli, it has good Control-MUs despite the counters and easily dies 20 dmg done by fast aggro.


Doks

thefreakaccident
06-01-2007, 07:33 PM
thank you for the kind comments.. I can see how we all got cofused in the discussion... would you know how to work my list to work a litle better?

I have been finding that pyroclasm is dead in almost any MU where their board does not pack creatures (i.e. stax, lanstill, MBC, us)... while it is a bomb against I tend to have to play against the previously listed decks, and find myself crying on the inside...

perhapes more burn of another type?

Maximus04
06-13-2007, 09:12 PM
I have been doing some testing and here are some of my thoughts

Decree of Justice is to slow, the white splash build runs such a lower land counter that Decree often sits dead in the hand, if the format moves to a more control meta I would suggest this card either MB or coming out of the side. Though, I highly doubt control will make much of a comeback, just drop B2B against Landstill and you'll do fine. Maybe in Europe the meta is a little slower, but I need fast answers turn 2 ALWAYS in my testing.

Echoing Truth is the best bounce. With Empty the Warrens running rampant, this is best bounce around. I know it's not as fast a Chain of Vapors or as good CA as Repeal but, you will feel like a complete idiot when you die to 8 1/1 goblin tokens.

Thefreakaccident, I would like to see the red splash version if you ever get the chance. I'm quite interested.

If some are still not sold on the splash variations here is a pure MUC build that has proven very solid in my testing

4-Flooded Stand
2-Polluted Delta
17-Island

3-Morphling

4-Brainstorm
3-Impulse
3-Fact or Fiction
2-Back to Basics
4-ManaLeak
4-Counterspell
3-Spell Snare
4-Force of Will
2-Vedalken Shackles
2-Powder Keg
3-Echoing Truth

I still think the white splash has the most power and versatility. I just wish I could find a good size legacy tournament to prove it's worth. I'll def post a decklist once I get it tuned once the meta has re-established after Flash debacle.

thefreakaccident
06-13-2007, 09:28 PM
@ maxim-

I just p.m.'d you with the current list... as stated before it isn't exactly MUC, seeing as it is more of a hybrid deck that I came up with... it is quite powerful though, so be careful!

should I start an Ophid thread somewhere, or just post here with you guys?

ClearSkies
06-13-2007, 10:11 PM
What about Zuran Orb? MUC seems to have a problem with early game, but it usually do well when it gets into the late game. Zuran Orb allows the MUC to live into the late game. Maybe 1-2?

I went to a local tournament a few times, and I seen a MUC player that seemed to be saved by this card often. Sometimes it is a win condition when timer runs out. (When timer runs out, the person with most life wins right? That is how it is in the local tournament I play, I am not completely sure on other tournaments.)

Also, how about Sensei's Divining Top? It allows you to draw better, and often, it allows you to "hide" your counterspells on the top three cards of your library.

thefreakaccident
06-13-2007, 10:57 PM
zuran orb cannot be abbused in this sort of deck... we need our lands in order to counter spells and cast high cc cards like morphling and Fact or fiction. If we start saccing the lands, we will be unable to defend ourselves/use our powerful spells.

most tournaments do not go by life count, because you could have more life and still loose.

ClearSkies
06-13-2007, 11:38 PM
zuran orb cannot be abbused in this sort of deck... we need our lands in order to counter spells and cast high cc cards like morphling and Fact or fiction. If we start saccing the lands, we will be unable to defend ourselves/use our powerful spells.

most tournaments do not go by life count, because you could have more life and still loose.

Well, with Zuran Orb, it would mean that you can't really use fetch lands, and that you will have to run more basic islands in your deck. Early in the game, Zuran Orb just sits there, but mid to late game, you can have a lot land out right?

What about Maze of Iths? Do they help MUC versus Aggro at all?

What do most tournaments go by when time is out?