[Deck] GRB Aggro Sliver

[GoTreK]

Over the past few days I was wondering whether Aggro Sliver could become a viable deck in Legacy. TS grants us access to the amazing Sedge Sliver and some other that might deserve consideration. At first I made up my mind as regards the creaturebase.

I came up with the following:
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
4 Spined Sliver
3 Acidic Sliver
3 Two-Headed Sliver

Muscle and Sedge Sliver are self-explanatory I reckon. Spined Sliver, too, boosts our Slivers even though only when they get blocked, so I think he deserves a spot. With Acidic Sliver we get reach. When the ground is stalled we can still force through the last damage. 3 is imho here the right choice because we only need one in play. Two-Headed Sliver is maybe no worth it but I thought if we can't play Winged Sliver then he is probably the best alternative, giving us some evasion. Additionally he teams up quite nicely with the Spined Sliver.
As you probably have noticed we lack cc1 drops. I thought Kird Ape is still playable despite his creature type, what do you think? Another choice would be Metallic Sliver but the thing is he doesn't do anything on his own and that's why I'm pretty sceptical. Any other ideas?
Furthermore considering the low mana-curve, Dark Confidant (as a 3-of) could fit in here as well. He'd lessen the chance that we run out of gas and provide a better mid- and lategame.
As to the spells I think there are quite a few that might be good. Here's a list (there are probably many more..):

Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Seal of Fire
Magma Jet
Rancor
Moldervine Cloak
Duress
Cabal Therapy
Smother
Diabolic Edict
Vendetta
Terminate
Umezawa's Jitte
Aether Vial

What do you think? Is here any potential so that the deck could ever be played seriously? I'd really appreciate some opinions... Thanks in advance!

[MasterBlaster]

I think a better creature base would be:

4 Muscle Sliver
2 Ghostflame Sliver
3 Spined Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
3 Acidic Sliver

Ghostflame should be real good as it lets you dodge Silver Knight, Mother of Runes, Spectral Lynx, etc.

EDIT: If you need a 1-drop then I would suggest Mindlash Sliver as its ability could come in handy since how you can make your opponent discard on their Draw Step.

[DeathwingZERO]

My biggest question for this deck, being that it's based on Slivers, is what exactly do you believe your odds are in the match against Meat Hooks (Sliver Control and it's variants) seeing as they would have a much more stable creature base that gains the benefits of yours, and have both denial and removal to back it up?

[MasterBlaster]

My biggest question for this deck, being that it's based on Slivers, is what exactly do you believe your odds are in the match against Meat Hooks (Sliver Control and it's variants) seeing as they would have a much more stable creature base that gains the benefits of yours, and have both denial and removal to back it up?

If GRB slivers goes against Meat-Hooks(GUW) it would pretty much come down to who can play the most slivers.

Beyond that MH has counters, while GRB would probably have burn, hand disruption, and the +1/+1 and regen bonuses from Sedge Sliver.

I think I would give the advantage to GRB but it would definitely be a close game as Meat-Hooks trys to keep a higher creature count with counters.

[Volt]

Over the past few days I was wondring whether Aggro Sliver could become a viable deck in Legacy. TS grants us access to the amazing Sedge Sliver and some other that might deserve consideration. At first I made up my mind as regards the creaturebase.

I came up with the following:
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
4 Spined Sliver
3 Acidic Sliver
3 Two-Headed Sliver

Muscle and Sedge Sliver are self-explanatory I reckon. Spined Sliver, too, boosts our Slivers even though only when they get blocked, so I think he deserves a spot. With Acidic Sliver we get reach. When the ground is stalled we can still force through the last damage. 3 is imho here the right choice because we only need one in play. Two-Headed Sliver is maybe no worth it but I thought if we can't play Winged Sliver then he is probably the best alternative, giving us some evasion. Additionally he teams up quite nicely with the Spined Sliver.
As you probably have noticed we lack cc1 drops. I thought Kird Ape is still playable despite his creature type, what do you think? Another choice would be Metallic Sliver but the thing is he doesn't do anything on his own and that's why I'm pretty sceptical. Any other ideas?
Furthermore considering the low mana-curve, Dark Confidant (as a 3-of) could fit in here as well. He'd lessen the chance that we run out of gas and provide a better mid- and lategame.
As to the spells I think there are quite a few that might be good. Here's a list (there are probably many more..):

Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Seal of Fire
Magma Jet
Rancor
Moldervine Cloak
Duress
Cabal Therapy
Smother
Diabolic Edict
Vendetta
Terminate
Umezawa's Jitte
Aether Vial

What do you think? Is here any potential so that the deck could ever be played seriously? I'd really appreciate some opinions... Thanks in advance!

No Spinneret Sliver? He seems like one of the better TS slivers to me.

As far as non-sliver spells, I would think Duress and Lightning Bolts would be auto-includes.

The deck will be too slow to deal with combo. I don't see it being very competitive in Legacy. Good luck, though.

[MasterBlaster]

This deck will be easier to talk about with an actual decklist. So without further ado:

GRB SLIVERS!
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
3 Spined Sliver
3 Acidic Sliver
3 Mindlash Sliver
2 Ghostflame Sliver
2 Spinneret Sliver

4 Rancor
4 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial

4 Chrome Mox
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland

This list is kinda thrown together, but atleast it gives us a starting point.

[Tacosnape]

Don't forget about Hunter Sliver. He's sick when combined with Sedge Sliver. Removal galore.

[MasterBlaster]

Is anyone properly motivated to test this deck?

It should at least be as competitive as ZillaStompy.

[GoTreK]

Yeah, of course I am!

As to the Meat-Hooks MU I think it should be at least even since we simply play more Sliver and while they have control-elements such as counter and StoP we have Burn which should at least be as good (imho even better in this MU), Duress (-1 removal for M-H) and depending on the build black creature removal in the form of Diabolic Edict, Smother or Vendetta.

@Volt
I am as well worried with the Combo-MU but then again Zilla-Stompy is as well a contender in the format and I don't see them being faster than we are or could be with a developed decklist. And please, don't wish Good luck but help! ;)

In the cc1 slot Mindlash Sliver is quite a good idea actually. He'd as well improve our Combo MU along with Duress so that we are not completely helpless. And naturally he benefits from the other Sliver!

@List
Maybe we even need 4 Mindlash Sliver since playing a Sliver turn 1 to have him being boosted turn two by e.g. Muscle Sliver seems pretty good.
Ghostflame and Spinnered Sliver are not bad but not very hot either. Especially Spinnered Sliver doesn't help our gameplan at all (do we want to block?). Ghostflame Sliver is nice in the mentioned cases but otherwise he is, as Spinnered Sliver, nothing but a 2/2 for cc2. I feel the 4th Spined Sliver is much better than these two.
My proposal:
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
4 Spined Sliver
4 Mindlash Sliver
3 Acidic Sliver
-19

I think 21 or 22 is probably the correct creature count. What do you guys make of Heart-Sliver and Two-Headed Sliver? Hunter Sliver was proposed, too.

I totally agree with you on your spellchoice. 4 Rancor, 4 Duress and 4 Lightning Bolt are set. I'm not sure about Aether Vial, though. Of course it's great but are there better cards? Maybe more burn? More Disruption?

I got to go now so that's it for now.

Keep on posting!!

[Eldariel]

While it's fairly expensive, Magma Sliver could actually be worth consideration in builds without Crystalline. With 3 Slivers in play, it can already do ugly stuff. The natural drawback is obviously that it costs fortunes to cast, so I guess it might be better idea to leave it on the sidelines. Heart Sliver is pretty damn nice though, Goblin Warchief goes to show how good mass haste on your side is.

[GoTreK]

I definately agree with you, mass haste could significantly speed up our clock which is very important.

What about that?

//Creatures 22
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
4 Spined Sliver
4 Mindlash Sliver
3 Acidic Sliver
3 Heart Sliver

//Spells 19
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Duress
4 Rancor
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Aether Vial
3 Chrome Mox

//Lands 17
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
3 Badlands
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

[Cavius The Great]

Have you guys considered Might Sliver at all or is it too expensive? Seems slightly viable with Ancient Tomb, plus when you drop one it's pretty much game.

[Pinder]

Finally, a Sliver deck where Aether Vial belongs. I don't have much time to contribute much now, but I'll drop an idea.

Since you can support Aether Vial, some of the higher costed slivers that were out of the question for Meat Hooks are certainly well within your ability to lay down. The one that comes to mind immediately would be Toxin Sliver. Him plus Two-Headed and Sedge means that they have to sac two guys just to block. It also serves much the same purpose on defense as Talon Sliver did in Meat Hooks. People won't swing into regenerating Basilisks. Just a thought.

More later, I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this one.

[Alfred]

Is it just me or is anyone else totally underwhelmed by Spined Sliver? It's ability is almost irrelivant. Either Two-Headed or Heart Sliver seem like they would be better choices for this slot, regardless of their P/T.

[Kronicler]

I've always been fond of aggro slivers, and with the new ones from time spiral I think this deck might finally be able to work. After some thinking and reading the start of this thread, I've made a list of my own:

Creatures
3 Acidic Sliver
3 Heart Sliver
2 Magma Sliver
4 Mindlash Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
4 Spined Sliver
2 Toxin Sliver

Spells
4 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt

Enchantments
4 Rancor

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Lands
4 Badlands
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills

It's got a nice curve of creatures along with Rancor, Duress, Lightning Bolt, and Aether Vial. Tell me what you guys think. Maybe a few less creatures in favor of some more removal / hand distruction.

[GoTreK]

I didn't think about the possibility to play some higher costed Sliver because of Vial but it definately sounds great. We now should discuss which of those expensive Sliver serve us best.
The best are imho Toxin Sliver, Magma Sliver and maybe Bonesplitter Sliver.

I actually think we should stop posting new decklists and rather develop one first list together by discussing possible cardchoices. I feel we really need such an alpha version for further improvement (by tests).

@Alfred
Spined Sliver is a solid 2/2 for cc2 and gives an extra bonus of +1/+1 to every Sliver that gets blocked. I don't see this being irrelevant with so much aggro out there. We can only succeed if our creatures are bigger than theirs and Spined Sliver helps us here a lot. Thus for the time being I can't imagine Spined Sliver to be replaced.

As to Might Sliver I consider him two expensive even with Vial. Tomb is out of the question for me since the manabase can't support them.

[Kronicler]

I think magma and toxin are 100x better than bonesplitter sliver (and PLEASE no one mension Fury Sliver). Either one prety much ends the game. The more I think about it though, I think magma is a better choice than toxin because by the time we get one of these fatties out our guys wil be so huge that toxin's ability will be useless.

I definately agree that spined sliver is a must. I tested my deck list a few times last night and it was scary how fat the slivers got by turn 4ish, especially with a turn 1 vial. Also if you have a spined sliver in play and another sliver with a rancor on it NO ONE is going to want to block it.

A few people have mensioned Two Headed sliver but I don't believe that guy has a place in here. There are much better 2 drops than him. What do people think of Hunter Sliver? Is provoke a needed ability in this deck?

[GoTreK]

Personally I don't like the Hunter Sliver and I see him far inferior to every other Sliver in the deck's cc2 slots. He's especially poor because he is only useful (...but still not that amazing imho) against creature-based decks. Otherwise he is merely a 1/1 for cc2 which is obviously awful.
My problem with Toxin Sliver is by the way about the same!


The more I think about it though, I think magma is a better choice than toxin because by the time we get one of these fatties out our guys wil be so huge that toxin's ability will be useless.
I absolutely have to agree with you here. In theory his ability may sound great but considering how big our threats are his ability is likely to be not very useful.
I'd vote for a Magma Sliver or Bonesplitter Sliver because either of them provides a large tempo boost. Why exactly would you prefer Magma Sliver to B. Sliver?

I think for now we agree on the following creatures:
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
x Spined Sliver (?)
x Mindlash Sliver
x Heart Sliver
x Acidic Sliver

[Kronicler]

4x Spined, 3x Heart, 3x Acidic IMO.

The reason I like Magma over Bonesplitter is that with a rancor in play dropping a magma litterally ends the game, while dropping a B. Splitter does not. "Hah, yeah, I give my already 6/4 sliver with trample +10/+10" GG. I'm not sure how many we should run though... probably either 2 or 3.

One thing I'm also not so sure about is the need for Mindlash Sliver. It's only purpose is as a 1st turn drop yet in my couple games of testing I would always drop a vial or a duress 1st turn. Also, is Mindlash's ability at all useful? If not I think Metallic Sliver would be a better choice simply because we can use any color of mana to play it. I duno, it's just something to think about.

[GoTreK]

Yeah but the problem is though that we don't always have a Rancor in play. In that case I think Splitter is better simply because he provides a faster clock. Normally when either hits play we have about 3 Sliver on the board. Lets say they are 2/2, 3/3 and 3/3. With Splitter they'd become 4/2, 5/3 and 5/3 whereas with Magma Sliver we coud give a Sliver +4/+0 by tapping one of them. In the first case it's 14 damage and in the second it's 10 or 11 depending on how you attack... But as I'm myself not quite sure I'd really appreciate some more opinions.


4x Spined, 3x Heart, 3x Acidic IMO.
signed!

Mindlash Sliver is quite nice I think and he improves our combo-MU. Even if you play a Vial turn 1 he can be vialed out turn 2 and you can play another Sliver so that's not a problem at all. Cutting a cc1 Sliver withouth replacing him with another Sliver is out of the question for me and therefore it pretty much comes down to a decision between Metallic Sliver and Mindlash Sliver. I'd definately go with the latter!

[Kronicler]

aight, for now I'm sold on the 1cc sliver, whichever one it may be.

I agree that without a rancor (or the guarantee of an unblocked sliver) that Splitter becomes better, but because of rancor's knack at staying around I think that magma is the better choice.

I saw you throw in a couple of chrome moxes a few deck lists up and I think that 2 might be a good adition to the deck. No more than that because we don't want to be removing to many slivers from the game but 2 might be a nice boost of speed for the deck.

[GoTreK]

Ok as long as nobody else is willing take part in the discussion I'm fine with Magma Sliver. But we should keep in mind Splitter as a possible alternative...
Chrome Moxes are indeed pretty nice but I don't know if Vials AND Moxes are the way to go.

As we have so many creatures what do you guys think of Jitte? Normally it's almost an auto-include... But I don't know if it's fast enough especially considering our highly-unfavorable Combo-MU.

[Volt]

I've given some thought to this deck, and I just can't see any way to make it competitive. The problem is that after Muscle, Sedge, and Spined, there's a big dropoff in the power level of the slivers available to this deck. Also, there are no good one-drops. Mindlash Sliver is crap. I'll spend a mana, sac a creature, and discard a card, all just to make you discard a card of your choice? Nuh uh. I'd rather play Metallic Sliver, which means I should just give up.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but I don't think this can ever be anything more than a Tier 3 "fun deck."

[Goblin Snowman]

Has Blade Sliver been tested? He's very aggressive, and is a 3/2 for 2R at the worst.

[Phantom]

The problem is that after Muscle, Sedge, and Spined, there's a big dropoff in the power level of the slivers available to this deck. Also, there are no good one-drops.

I started working on this deck right after the leak of Sedge Sliver and ran into similar problems, although I think some of the 2 drops for 2/2 are quality (Acidic and Spined). CounterSliver gets around the lack of quality Slivers by running cantrips, and I think this deck should consider the same. 4 of each bauble and 4 Magma Jets should do wonders for drawing us into more quality Slivers.

The one drops are a big concern as well. The way I figure it, we can load up on other turn one plays (Duress and Therapy come to mind), or we can consider the unthinkable: non slivers. Kird Ape has never really been out of place in aggro, and would work nicely with Rancor if we choose to run it. Mogg Fanatic and Grim Lavamancer are two other options, and Lavamancer has some nice synergy with baubles and fetches. Hell, I might even consider Dark Confidant, even though it further clogs the two drop.

[PunkRocker1134]

Best One Drop ever, Aether Vial. That with Duress and Cabal Therapy I'm sure you'll be good on one drops.

[Volt]

Best One Drop ever, Aether Vial. That with Duress and Cabal Therapy I'm sure you'll be good on one drops.

By "one drop," I didn't just mean stuff you can play on turn 1. I was also referring to stuff you can Vial out with 1 counter.

[Phantom]

By "one drop," I didn't just mean stuff you can play on turn 1. I was also referring to stuff you can Vial out with 1 counter.

Also, as of now we only have 4 Lightning Bolts as turn one answers to Lackey on the draw. Add Kird ape or Fanatic and we up that count to a resonable 8.

[Anusien]

No Firewake Sliver? Seems superior to Heart Sliver; yes it costs more but it also lets you do Atog-style tricks after blockers.

Also, either Mindwhip Sliver or Mindlash Sliver are essential. They both also set up a powerful interaction with Patriarch's Bidding or Living Death.

[Pinder]

Firewake Sliver isn't that great IMO. If he was a 2/2, maybe. But 3 mana for a 1/1 (Vial or not) isn't that great. His ability isn't really that great, either. I don't like the idea of saccing your own creatures. And if you want haste, you can always go with Heart Sliver.

I'd also like to advocate Ghostflame Sliver here. Not only is it a 2/2 for 2 (which is solid already IMO), he makes all of your Slivers dodge Mother of Runes, CoP:Anything, etc, etc. But mostly he's a 2/2 for 2. Sliver decks really like those, because late game they become 4/4 regenerating beat sticks for 2. The only reason I could possibly think you'd run Mindlash Sliver is for the same reason. Vial might make the emphasis on cheap creatures a bit weaker, but it's just a thought.

As for Spined Sliver, it's really good. Not only is it another one of those 2/2 for 2 dealies we like so much, but when combined with Two-Headed Sliver (are you still running that?) it's amazing. But yeah, 2/2 for 2. Acidic Sliver for the same reason, and it gives you reach.

And I agree that Bonesplitter > Magma in this case. On that note, what about Might, then? Is the 5cc too much, even for Vial?

And Jitte might not be a bad idea here. In MH it was out pretty early because of Crystalline, but here it might not be bad.

Just some suggestions.

[Phantom]

And I agree that Bonesplitter > Magma in this case. On that note, what about Might, then? Is the 5cc too much, even for Vial?


I would like to offer the suggestion that the deck should run no 3 or more casting cost slives mainboard except Sedge Sliver. The idea behind the deck is that we drop a few Slivers, at which point they become awesome, then we beat and disrupt the hell out of them. The 3cc+ Slivers seem overcosted and narrow and we are already very suceptable to wasteland and ports. Plus, counting on vial is a poor idea since we'll see one in about half our games and almost every deck is running hate vs. them thanks to Goblins.


I've considered Living Wish and can't decide if it's a good or bad idea. We all know the tempo hit it causes, and I would probably have to move a Muscle Sliver to the board, if not a Muscle and a Sedge but it would provide us with our pump Slivers more often. It could also help our versatility by giving us access to discard (Mesmeric Fiend, Mindwhip Sliver) creature removal (FtK, Boneshredder) artifact and enchantment removal (Sex Monkey and the like) graveyard hate (Withered Wretch, Loaming Shaman) and recursion (Eternal Witness). We could even run some of the narrower Slivers in the board and Vial would help a ton (Vial would even give us the option of throwing in off color jank like Meddling Mage and Talon Sliver). Still, I'm not sure.

[Kronicler]

Wow, lots of post, and so much to say.

1st: Volt, stop being a negative nancy :tongue: .

2nd: I agree with phantom's suggestion of keeping all slivers besides sedge 2cc or under. Frankly all the best slivers are 2 cc anyways :-P.

3rd: After a lot of thought on the subject I think living wish is a good idea. It grants us the ability to mold to almost any situation and get any sliver we need. Plus I can't wait to see the look on someone's face when I vial in meddling mage in a RGB deck, haha.

4th: Pinder's reasoning for Ghostflame can't be ignored, and I agree that some should be included, though the number is very debatable.

5th: Jitte is an absolute must. Can't believe I forgot about that sweet piece.

6th: What do people think about two headed sliver? Does it deserve a spot? The synergy with spined sliver cannot be ignored imo.

So here is what we have so far:

Definate Slivers:

Muscle Sliver
Sedge Sliver
Spined Sliver

Debatable Slivers:

Acidic Sliver
Heart Sliver
Ghostflame Sliver
Two Headed Sliver
1cc Sliver

[Volt]

Wow, lots of post, and so much to say.

1st: Volt, stop being a negative nancy :tongue: .

2nd: I agree with phantom's suggestion of keeping all slivers besides sedge 2cc or under. Frankly all the best slivers are 2 cc anyways :-P.

3rd: After a lot of thought on the subject I think living wish is a good idea. It grants us the ability to mold to almost any situation and get any sliver we need. Plus I can't wait to see the look on someone's face when I vial in meddling mage in a RGB deck, haha.

4th: Pinder's reasoning for Ghostflame can't be ignored, and I agree that some should be included, though the number is very debatable.

5th: Jitte is an absolute must. Can't believe I forgot about that sweet piece.

6th: What do people think about two headed sliver? Does it deserve a spot? The synergy with spined sliver cannot be ignored imo.

So here is what we have so far:

Definate Slivers:

Muscle Sliver
Sedge Sliver
Spined Sliver

Debatable Slivers:

Acidic Sliver
Heart Sliver
Ghostflame Sliver
Two Headed Sliver
1cc Sliver


Spinneret deserves consideration because it's 2/2 for 2 and gives you a way to deal with flyers.

[MasterBlaster]

4th: Pinder's reasoning for Ghostflame can't be ignored, and I agree that some should be included, though the number is very debatable.



I suggest 2 Ghostflame slivers with the other 2 being sideboarded.

Further reasons for Ghostflame are that he lets us block a creature carrying a SoFI and he will let us dodge Perish.

[Pinder]

Spinneret deserves consideration because it's 2/2 for 2 and gives you a way to deal with flyers.

This man speaks truth. Because you don't have access to Winged in your colors, Spinneret is probably a must include. It won't give you the same sort of evasion, but being able to block flyers is a good thing. Plus, as Volt noted, it's another one of those '2/2 for 2' things we love so much.

On another note, because Aether Vial would let you run some higher cc's, it might be worth looking into diversifying some of your mana costs so you don't die to Pernicious Deed (or EE). Meat Hooks ph34rz the Deed, because its curve tops out at 2. If you had some higher costed stuff, this wouldn't be as much of a problem for you. Just a thought.

As to Living Wish, it depends on how fast you want to go. It was too slow for MH (and that's saying something), but it would open up a lot of options once you have a Vial set at the appropriate number. It's definitely worth a shot.

IMO, here are the slivers that have to be in the deck, in some numbers:

Muscle Sliver (duh)
Sedge Sliver
Spined Sliver
Spinneret Sliver
Heart Sliver

A quick gatherer seach reveals these Slivers (in my opinion at least) to be worthy of consideration:

Ghostflame Sliver. Dodging protection and narrow color hosing (like the aforementioned Perish et al) is always a plus. And it's a 2/2 for 2.

Acidic Sliver. Gives you reach, but that's gravy. Paired with Ghostflame, this turns all of your Slivers into colorless sources of damage. Says goodbye to Silver Knight and Soltari Priest, as well as dodging mom. Oh, and another 2/2 for 2.

Crypt Sliver. Sedge Sliver might be able to give you all the regeneration you need, but this regeneration is free. Also, turns any untapped Sliver into the ultimate chump blocker.

Two Headed Sliver. The 1/1 body makes this one less than great, but it does give you a form of pseudo-evasion. In my experience, when you're swinging with more than 2 Slivers under this guy, it's pretty much impossible for them to block everything, and likely they will have to give up something useful to stop the onslaught. Creates very unfavorable combat situations for your opponent. Of course, this means that they will always be stack blocking you. You might have to watch out for that.

Blade Sliver. This one is highly debatable, but hey, it's a 3/2 for 3, that will likely regenerate. I seem to remember another creature like that.....some kind of Troll? :tongue:.

EDIT:

Oh, and Hunter Sliver might be worth a look at. I'll have to check the interaction with Two-Headed Sliver, but it might let you force them to block with two creatures, one of which is of your choosing. This would likely be retardedly one sided, especially under Spined Sliver.

[GoTreK]

I'm afraid that Living Wish is ineed too slow. If it's even too slow for MH it definately is for Aggro Sliver...

I was wondering how many Sliver we actually want to play. I mean we got several "good" Sliver but we finally have to make a choice and there is only a limited amount of slots available. So what do you think? What is the correct number? As I mentioned earlier I'd play between 20 and 22 but that's just me and I haven't really tested yet because we don't even have a widely accepted creaturebase.

IMO, here are the slivers that have to be in the deck, in some numbers:

Muscle Sliver (duh)
Sedge Sliver
Spined Sliver
Spinneret Sliver
Heart Sliver
I absolutely agree here. So what about the numbers...
My proposal is:
4 Muscle
4 Sedge
4 Spined /those 12 slots are almost set I think
3 Heart Sliver /mass haste is obviously great; I WANT to draw one, but not a second or even a third... so 3 is the correct number imho
2 Spinneret /good body but we don't need him that often and the deck is very tight
~ 17
Can we afford to run Ghostflame AND Acidic? Keep in mind we still have NO cc1 Sliver included...
Two-Headed and Hunter are not good enough imho and I'm very unsure about Blade. I'd like to include him if I knew how... He agressive and that's exactly what we want!

And what about the cantrip idea? Magme Jet might be a good idea but I don't know about bauble... Any thoughts?

[Phantom]

I really don't like Spinneret Sliver and I can't believe so many people do. So few of the decks in Legacy run flyers, so this guy is completely useless against 90-95% of the decks we face. Even when we do face flyers, we have burn to deal with them and discard to grab any equipment they might want to drop. Sure Spinneret Sliver is a 2/2 for 2, but I find both Acidic and Spined Sliver to be much more useful.

I don't like Ghostflame either. Maybe in the board, but our creatures are three colors. I'm not sure opponents can risk boarding in something like Perish, only to see one green Sliver that game. I think the only matchup where I'd really want one is Angel Stompy maybe.

The argument that these are 2/2s for 2 is ok, but I'd much rather run something like Dark Confidant, which is a 2/1 for 2 and gets me to better Slivers.

[Pinder]

I don't like Ghostflame either. Maybe in the board, but our creatures are three colors. I'm not sure opponents can risk boarding in something like Perish, only to see one green Sliver that game. I think the only matchup where I'd really want one is Angel Stompy maybe.


I agree with the logic here that Ghostflame is probably only truly useful in certain mathcups The main reason I advocated it was to hose protection, and Phantom is right about Angel Stompy being the only matchup where that's really relevant. Still, it's a 2/2 for 2 and it could never hurt alongside some of the more relevant Slivers. I'm not saying you should run it instead of the Acidic/Spined/What have you slot, but if there's any room at all after those, I think this should be very high up on the list of possible things to include.

[NoGameShow]

Is the black really that nesescary. I would consider removing it for white. Which gives you access to a couple decent one drops Sidewinder Sliver and Plated Sliver also tools such as STP and Lightning Helix for more removal.

[Kronicler]

Two Words: SEDGE SLIVER

[Pinder]

I'm not really sure we need a 1cc Sliver here. If you want disruption, run Duress/Hymn or something. And you have other things to do on your first turn like Aether Vial, etc. Mindlash Sliver isn't really that great. Sure, he's 1 mana, but he makes ypu discard (as well as sac a creature) just to make them discard. This is less than stellar in my opinion. Just play Vial/Duress on first turn, then follow it up with a 2 mana 2/2 Sliver a la Muscle, Acidic, or Spined (or possibly Ghostflame). In my mind the creature base should look something like this:

4 Muscle
4 Sedge
3 Acidic
3 Spined
3 Heart
2 Spinneret

Spinneret is debatable here, and could possibly be replaced with something else that could conseivably be more useful.

As for spells, how about:

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
4 Magma Jet

These are all just ideas, though.

[GoTreK]

I think the list is decent but I don't agree with only 3 Spined Sliver when we run 2 Spinneret or 3 Acidic, as Spined is the third best Sliver available imho.

Running no cc1 Sliver/creatures in general seems not that hot to me to be honest since we can't drop a creature turn one and we can't vial out anything in the second turn. If Mindlash Sliver doesn't make the cut, what about Kird Ape whom I suggested already in the starting post? Or about Fanatic or Lavamancer that have been mentioned earlier, too?

Playing Hyms must be tested. They are of course great but I don't know if we can reliably provide the BB to cast it.

Magma Jet as a 4 of is probably the right call. I fell we just need something like a cantrip.

[Kronicler]

Don't forget rancor in that list of spells. Also, I would rather play Cabal Therapy than Hymm because not only is the BB gona be a pain but I find Cabal to simply be more devastating. There is also the fact that we can flash it back if need be. But before we start debating Hymm vs Cabal are we sure we even need a 2nd discard spell in the deck after duress?

[MasterBlaster]

But before we start debating Hymm vs Cabal are we sure we even need a 2nd discard spell in the deck after duress?

It really depends on how bad the combo matchup is and how prevalent combo is in your meta.

I think 4 md Duress and 4 sb Cabal Therapy is the right way to go, but once again it would be meta-dependant.

[Phantom]

I think the list is decent but I don't agree with only 3 Spined Sliver when we run 2 Spinneret or 3 Acidic, as Spined is the third best Sliver available imho.

I kinda disagree here. Spined is very good at what it does, but it is only useful against aggro decks that are planning on blocking or being blocked. In an open meta, that helps us in about 50% of our matches (rough estimate 50% aggro or ag-con, 35% combo, 15% control). I haven't tested it yet, but it seems to me that Acidic kicks ass against all kinds of decks, hastening your clock against combo, turning controls removal into self shocks, and we all know how good instant speed removal is against aggro. Plus, it does nutty things with Vial. Also, it gives crappy 1cc Slivers something to do if we're not playing against combo.

You already know my take on Spinneret. I personally think it's too crappy even for the board.

Tough for me to say if Jitte or Rancor is better here. One gives trample, the other gives life, removal and pump. One is needleable and disenchantable, the other isn't. One is cheap, the other fairly mana intensive. One is a legend, the other isn't. Blah, Blah, Blah. Testing will show this.

[Volt]

I kinda disagree here. Spined is very good at what it does, but it is only useful against aggro decks that are planning on blocking or being blocked. In an open meta, that helps us in about 50% of our matches (rough estimate 50% aggro or ag-con, 35% combo, 15% control). I haven't tested it yet, but it seems to me that Acidic kicks ass against all kinds of decks, hastening your clock against combo, turning controls removal into self shocks, and we all know how good instant speed removal is against aggro. Plus, it does nutty things with Vial. Also, it gives crappy 1cc Slivers something to do if we're not playing against combo.

You already know my take on Spinneret. I personally think it's too crappy even for the board.

Tough for me to say if Jitte or Rancor is better here. One gives trample, the other gives life, removal and pump. One is needleable and disenchantable, the other isn't. One is cheap, the other fairly mana intensive. One is a legend, the other isn't. Blah, Blah, Blah. Testing will show this.

You might be right about Spinneret. I have no idea. I have done zero testing with an "aggro sliver" deck.

I'm pretty sure Jitte will prove to be too slow for this deck, though.

[NoGameShow]

If Spinneret is giving you problems and flyers are ruining your day try throwing some Terminates in the deck.

[scrumdogg]

The deck needs to be able to deal with both combo & aggro if you are serious about building it. Therefore, the deck needs to be flexible enough to adapt in different directions against different strategies, making Jitte better than Rancor (besides the obvious 2 for 1 that STP already poses & the need to bolster the removal component of the deck). 4 Duress & 4 Therapy maindeck are a must unless you want to declare an autoloss to combo, at which point you might as well put them all in the side. Therapy has application against non-combo as well, pulling out counters, Ringleaders, Enforcers, et. al. Muscle & Sedge are no brainers, Acidic & Spined are too good for what they do to add sub-optimal slivers just for the sake of being slivers. The same logic applies to Bob, who draws you into more slivers or diverts removal that would hit your slivers...or draws you into combo hate & removal. Why would you not play Bob? No Turn 1 drop creature wise? So what? Play the most powerful things possible. The discussions have been on adding 4x 1cc, how often do you expect to have them in hand when you have Vial at 1 anyway? Turn 1 plays should be Vial, Duress/Therapy, or Mox & a 2 drop anyway.


GRB SLIVERS (my proposed revision)
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
4 Spined Sliver
4 Acidic Sliver
3 Dark Confidant

2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
4 Aether Vial

3 Chrome Mox
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Badlands

Sideboard:
1x Duress (dead against Goblins, which makes up to 35% of a tourney)
3x Ghostflame Sliver (when they're good, they're amazing)
3-4x Shattering Spree (CotV sucks...a lot...so does opposing Vials, Jittes, EEs, Needles, Affinity, you get the picture)
3x Anarchy (Angel Stompy, U/W/x Fish, Landstill-esque control, Mystic Enforcers)
4-5x meta-dependent cards like Needle, Trinisphere, w/e

[GoTreK]

Yeah I also think Therapy > Hymn in this build. We won't have any problems to cast it and secondly we can use its flashback easily with so many creatures which is huge. But 7-8 discard spells seems like the only way to deal with combo even if it's probably still the worst MU.

I consider Bob to be quite strong here as well but I don't like the lack of Heart Sliver in your list. In my 10-12 games that I played so far I wanted to have him every single game. I'd at least run 2 but 3 seems even better. 4 Acidic is one too much because you only need one and then we need 1-2 more cards to cut to fit in 2-3x Heart Sliver (I'm referring to your list scrumdogg).

@Jitte
I'm absolutely unsure whether to play it or not... it's huge when online but it's pretty slow and manaintensive as well...

So a short summary:
+2-3 Heart Sliver
+1 Duress (I just think the 4th is necessary... :/ )

-1 Acidic
- ???

So far, GoTreK

[scrumdogg]

Heart Sliver is pretty hot, but I can't see it being more than a 2 of. Also, the 4th Duress makes sense except that A) it nearly dead vs Goblins B) something has to drop somewhere, we can't fit everything. I could see dropping 1 Bob (or, cringe, 1x Magma Jet) & 1 Acidic to add 2x Heart Sliver, but you are looking for a shot Game 1 vs combo, not a guarantee. If you want to concede Game 1, load up the main with board control & beats & load the SB for combo. But personally I hate starting down 0-1, especially when they go first game 3.... Same reasoning for the Jitte, as a 2 of, you drop it when you can. But once you do, you should assume complete control of the game if it involves creatures. It also plays it's usual role of Cancelling Legends...

[freakish777]

Is the black really that nesescary.

How about just dropping it all together?

//28 Slivers
4 Muscle
4 Spined
4 Metallic
4 Hunter
4 Heart
4 Horned
2 Blade
2 Bonesplitter

//10 Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Steely Resolve
2 Pyrostatic Pillar


//22 land
4 Wooded
4 Taiga
assortment other lands


//SB
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
6 REBs
other anti-combo stuff if necessary, or various removal is you think Goblins is really a problem (with Hunter Sliver down, they shouldn't be, you've got bigger guys, you make Piledrivers block your 2/2s and Warchiefs block your 3/3s).



EDIT:

Hunter + Spined/Muscle is rediculous.
Hunter + Horned is even more rediculous (assuming your creatures aren't dying).
Muscle/Blade/Bonesplitter + Horned is decent.
Multiple Spined + Hunter is game over for any opposing creature deck most of the time (although that requires 3 creatures in play).
The following line of play is fairly rediculous:
Turn 1 Vial
Turn 2 Heart Sliver, Vial in Metallic (2 damage)
Turn 3 Muscle Sliver, Vial in any other 2 cc sliver (10 - 11 damage or more total)
Turn 4 you should be winning here with any other creature.

In the above if you've ripped double Muscles, its 16 damage by turn 3.

Seriously, is Sedge Sliver even that good? I'm not sure the extra point of toughness here is essential. The regeneration surely isn't as important as the +1 power (which we can get from Blade Sliver). Also, if you leave it 3 colors, why are you sticking with Rancor? Horned Sliver is a threat when you need to topdeck one instead of something that needs a creature in play. Horned also lets you trample over the creatures you're killing off with Hunter. I've played casual games (so there was more time to develop) in which I had 2 or 3 Spined Slivers down as well as a Horned Sliver. People don't block when it means they'll take MORE damage AND lose their creature...

Anyways, Steely Resolve could possibly be a SB card in a 3 color version (if you can't play with Crystalline, why not play with an enchantment that does the same thing?).

[Kronicler]

Seriously, is Sedge Sliver even that good?



Yes, it is.




The regeneration surely isn't as important as the +1 power (which we can get from Blade Sliver).



The above statement is so idiotic. If it were straight regen for B vs +1 power, then it might be a debate, but the point is THAT ISN'T THE QUESTION. It's +1 power vs regen, +1 power, and +1 toughness!!! How can you possibly say that Blade is nearly as good as sedge?! Also, if you are about to drop black, then ,as people have said before, you are gona start 0-1 against combo.

STOP TELLING US TO DROP BLACK

[freakish777]

Yes, it is.

I won't believe you until you prove it.




How can you possibly say that Blade is nearly as good as sedge?!

Because it doesn't require you to have a specific type of land in play. The power benefit is guarenteed.

You: Crack fetch, find Badlands, drop Sedge, swing.
Them: Waste Badlands.

So now you have to play around that scenario, you pack a basic right? What happens when Legacy decks start running a copy or two of Ghost Quarter (Ghost Quarter is playable, against certain decks like Threshold its a Strip Mine for their singleton basic lands, backing up Wasteland, you can color screw them out of the game, the same thing would be applicable to your deck, to most Fish decks, etc)? You scoop?



Also, if you are about to drop black, then ,as people have said before, you are gona start 0-1 against combo.

Right, so move 1 or 2 more Pyrostatic Pillars main in the build I suggested. Vial turn 1, Pillar turn 2 seems extremely one sided (sure, they find a bounce spell, in the meantime their Mystical/Brainstorm/Impulse to dig for it costs them life and their Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth/etc costs them life, all while you're gunning for a turn 4 or 5 kill. Not great, but not unwinnable, also, as has been suggested by others, I'd rather focus on what the deck does well and accept that the SB has to be focused on combo then attempt to go in too many directions with a deck.

I'm not saying "drop black from your build guys, it suxx0rs!LOLOL!"

I'm saying are you sure there isn't room for 2 such RG sliver decks (for different metagames) one which splashes black for a better combo match and one that has a vastly superior mana base for the aggro/control match?

The decks really won't be that much different. Just one will splash a color. RG Vial-Silvers. RGb Vial-Slivers.

How about addressing the Horned Sliver vs. Rancor argument, any thoughts there? I am a fan of Rancor, but not in a deck that wants as many creatures as possible and can run a creature that gives one of the bonuses to all your guys. I think the deck should be running 22 - 28 Slivers, easily. You don't really need the removal, as your creatures should be better, you get Hunter for card advantage against aggro decks, and should have more creatures in just about every match up (except Goblins, where Hunter/Steely Resolve will become key).



EDIT:



If it were straight regen for B vs +1 power, then it might be a debate

Actually, no, it wouldn't be a debate in that case. Regeneration is a completely worthless ability in all formats outside of limited. Anyone disagreeing with this should review the following list of cards that are still competitive in Vintage, Legacy, Extended, and Standard:

Darkblast
StP
Wrath
Infest
Mutilate
Chainer's Edict
Diabolic Edict
Incinerate
Smother
Terminate
Putrefy


Again, its not

(+1/+0) OR (B: Regen AND +1/+1)

it (+1/+0) OR (IF you control a swamp, THEN (B: Regen AND +1/+1))

Simply pointing out that one of those scenarios is not guarenteed, and dependant on your metagame, one of them may be the difference from you doing well and doing poorly.

[Bane of the Living]

You: Crack fetch, find Badlands, drop Sedge, swing.
Them: Waste Badlands.

So now you have to play around that scenario, you pack a basic right? What happens when Legacy decks start running a copy or two of Ghost Quarter (Ghost Quarter is playable, against certain decks like Threshold its a Strip Mine for their singleton basic lands, backing up Wasteland, you can color screw them out of the game, the same thing would be applicable to your deck, to most Fish decks, etc)? You scoop?

Actually, no, it wouldn't be a debate in that case. Regeneration is a completely worthless ability in all formats outside of limited. Anyone disagreeing with this should review the following list of cards that are still competitive in Vintage, Legacy, Extended, and Standard:

Darkblast
StP
Wrath
Infest
Mutilate
Chainer's Edict
Diabolic Edict
Incinerate
Smother
Terminate
Putrefy


In your mindset your getting Muscle Sliver every game. He wont always be there. Even if you draw him he can be killed since hes the number one target for removal. Sedge is what will make your men big enough reliably each time. Especially since he protects your investment with good ol' regeneration.
Saying regeneration is prohibited to limited is so untrue. You obviously weren't playing in the days of Masticore. Troll Aestetic is pretty good too from what I can tell.

Of all those removal spells only Swords is heavily played. If you dont have another creature out to take the edicts then your obviously losing anyways. If Wrath of God is part of your meta I'd play a different deck.

Ghost Quarter sucks complete balls. It isnt even a viable option in Loam decks that play Crop Rotation. Trust me I really really tried, with my large loam fetish. You can play your Ghost Quarters, Ill shake your hand if I lose to it. Wasteland shouldnt be enough to stop Sedge. Play 8 Fetches. Keep one ready to roll when needed.

Your arguements are weaker than a drowning kitten.

[scrumdogg]

I don't think he's that far off base, as long as you had a full complement of Pillars maindeck. The Horned Sliver question is valid as well, as a Sliver that grants all of your creatures trample seems much better than Rancor (& might be better than Jitte as well, since it fits the theme better). That said, without any way to guarantee a Muscle, the ability to have 8 +1/+1 slivers that stack is too good not to play. I believe the point you're missing freakish777 is that the regen is a bonus & relevant only in the aggro & aggro control matchups anyway, where your opponents will have more desperate things to do than Waste your black source. It is the +1/+1 that shines and means you are more likely to pound fatal damage through. I agree that 22-28 slivers would be ideal, if you can fit them.

GRB SLIVERS (another proposed possibility)
critters: 28
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
4 Spined Sliver
4 Acidic Sliver
3 Horned Sliver
4 Metallic Sliver
2 Heart Sliver (or 3/3 with Metallics....?)
3 Dark Confidant

spells: 12
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Aether Vial

mana: 21
3 Chrome Mox
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Badlands

Sideboard:
3x Ghostflame Sliver (when they're good, they're amazing)
3-4x Shattering Spree (CotV sucks...a lot...so does opposing Vials, Jittes, EEs, Needles, Affinity, you get the picture)
3x Anarchy (Angel Stompy, U/W/x Fish, Landstill-esque control, Mystic Enforcers)
4-5x either meta-dependent cards like Needle, Trinisphere, w/e or board removal, since I apparently shanked all the burn.....or 4x Pillars to shore up combo & help in the aggro race...fucked if I know at this point

[Phantom]

@ scrumdogg: Why would you play Metallic over Mindlash? Your build has enough ways to get black mana, and at least Mindlash has something going for it. Anyway, I really like your build. Just an all out blitz of slivers which can double as burn (and Discard if you add Mindlash). I'm not nuts about Horned Sliver though. Rancor is trample, but it is also pump, reusable, and cheap (and even with all that I'm still not sure if it's right here). Horned Sliver is nice if you have 3 Slivers out, at least one of them is pump, and they want to chump block us. Otherwise, it's a crappy 2/2 for 3. So, it's useless:

1) Against combo
2) Against most control
3) In any game we're losing
4) Any time we don't have multiple Slivers out
5) Any time our Slivers aren't pumped (2/2 trampes = not impressive)
6) Any time they weren't going to block us anyway

In other words, I think we should trade it in. I might run all 8 of the 1 CC Slivers. It would give our deck some nice early game, and we would then have 8 Slivers and 4 Therapys which allowed us to sac crappy Slivers for useful purposes (if only one of them let us draw!).

Also, I think 8 discard spells main might be over kill. We all know the danger of running them mainboard, and I think we can present a resonable clock with our low curve, haste, and vial, so the 4 Therapy's and 4 Mindlash's might buy us enough time to pull out a win vs. Solidarity (IGGy is pretty much unwinnable game 1 from what I can tell).

So, from what I'm saying, I would go:
-4 Duress
-3 Horned Sliver
-3 Dark Confidant (not sure if he belongs here or not, but I would test without him to make sure he is needed)
-2 Metallic
(Also, I'm not sure about the Moxen)

+ 4 Mindlash
+ 4 Lightning Bolt (I noticed you had no turn one answers to Lackey. That'll hurt)
+ 3 Magma Jet (sort of fills Confidants spot)
+ 1 Heart Sliver

And I would def put some Leyline's in the board and maybe even some Crypts to seal all the graveyard matchups. Maybe that's overkill, but I would def drop Ghostflame Sliver. We can find better things to bring in vs. AS, and I can't think of any deck that is going to board in color specific hate against us.

--------------------------------------------------------------
@ freakish777:
You're making some good points, but people are blinded by your bad one's. Pillar is not playable mainboard in this deck, and one or two certainly isn't going to improve the combo numbers. Meanwhile, it's a dead card vs. Aggro, Control, and IGGy.

Also, I think you're missing the point of regeneration. It's certainly not good enough to run a Sliver just for it, but it is quite nice. Sure, a lot of removal bypasses regen, but it does allow us to dodge some removal that is still heavily played. Burn and Deed come to mind. Even that's not the best part of regen. The best part is what it does to combat. It makes our creatures either the best blockers in the world, or invincible attackers. Dropping a single Sedge Sliver will hold off a Threshed 'Goose and a Bear all day. Trying that with a Blade Sliver...not reccomended. Still, I'll keep Blade in mind since we may need more than just 8 pump Slivers (since opponents will be gunning for them) but for right now, he doesn't make the cut.

You make a good point about Wasteland (but a terrible one about Ghost Quarter) but that is easily fixed. 8 black fetches and 1-2 Swamps should do the trick.

I like the idea of Steely Resolve, but I'm not so sure it's a playable card. Once again it's useless against Combo, while only really shutting down 4 slots against most decks (Thresh, many Goblin builds, Red Death can burn you, etc). I think at best it is a sideboard card and at worst, a piece of casual garbage.

I don't know what to think of the provoke Sliver yet.

[GoTreK]

I'm so happy that there are apparently quite a number of other people interested in the Sliver aggro approach!

I believe there's enough said about Sedge by now so that I'm not required to post more arguments to reason his inclusion. He is way too strong not to run at any rate.

As to Rancor I think some people misunderstood me. It wasn't mainly (/only) about trample but rather about the extra 2 damage each turn. Phantom got me right here... That's exactly why I think Horned Sliver can't be compared to Rancor. Anyway we might cut Rancor but not in exchange for Horned because of the very reasons Phantom pointed out. Merely a trampling 2/2 for cc3 in many cases is not really amazing, is it? With a higher creature count he might be "ok" but frankly, I'd play Blade Sliver over him.

I thought as well about a _large_ creature base but in the end I wasn't bold enough to propose it :D. I mean it's really a tough call to cut Bolt, Duress or Rancor (some of the best cards of their colour..).

By the way I'd run Mindlash Sliver over Metallic as well. Even if the ability is not particularly strong it's at least a possibility and better than nothing. With Vial and enough black sources the coloured mana shouldn't be a problem.

My list looks like the following for the time being:

4 Mindlash Sliver
4 Spined
4 Sedge
4 Muscle
4 Acidic
3 Heart
3 Confi / Magma Jet (I'm so unsure here... Confi is REAL card advantages in most cases and Jet is basically burn/removal creating card quality)

4 Duress/ Bolt
4 Therapy
4 Vial

+1 slot (if only 18 lands)

19/18 lands +
3 Chrome Mox

edit: Is Night's Whisper any good? It can't hit for 2 like Confi but on the other hand you draw 2 cards immediately and it can't be removed (ok that isn't bound to be a disadvantage since the opponent has less removal for Muscle/Sedge). Discuss!

[GoTreK]

Sry for doublepost but the "last post" function doesn't work properly. It says the last post is from "bane of the living" and the topic wasn't upped when I posted either...

[freakish777]

@Horned Sliver. I'm not really concerned whether or not this makes the cut. Just Rancor doesn't belong in here.

@Pyrostatic Pillar. This is a meh slot, I simply like the interaction between it and Vial, I like having Vial give me free Slivers and my opponent's spells to get them back into the game putting them further in the hole first. This is by no means a great card, just a suggestion for shoring up combo match in a strictly RG Vial Slivers deck (which again, would be dependant on the metagame you play in. I'm not a fan of running 8 fetches and "having one ready to roll" this is a big reason why Roland's UG Madness deck and Nick Tradeau's 4 Color Landstill deck did well was their use of Stifle + Wasteland).

@Ghost Quarter, I'm either ahead of the curve on this, or I'm wrong. I don't expect people to believe me if they aren't seeing evidence of it in their metagames, but I'm fairly positive Ghost Quarter is far better than most people think. I think come GP Colombus we'll see at least a handful of decks utilizing them. I'm not really concerned with people believing me or not, simply saying this deck will need to evolve when Ghost Quarter sees more play (or that in a specific metagame you might want a more solid manabase, but these meta's are few and far between).


@Regeneration. Whoever said "only StP is played that much" missed what I wrote, as its across all formats I was talking about. I realize this is a deck designed for Legacy, but my point remains, in constructed, regen is a sucker ability. I'll argue that Masticore wouldn't be a good creature if he didn't have the 2: 1 to target creature on him and Troll wouldn't be a good creature without the "Can't be the target of spells or abilities that opponents control" on him. I don't want creatures that can "hold off a Thresh'd Werebear all day." I want a creature that can kill my opponent. If your busy screwing around in creature combat all the time that you think Regen is somehow an awesome ability (regardless of how aggro oriented this environment is) I question your ability to play Magic well (I realize this is an unpopular sentiment, and that you need to be able to do combat math, but seriously, Regen is a sucker ability).

Anyways, I need food, I might make some more coherent arguments later in this thread, but not now (food is some good).

[Goblin Snowman]

@Regeneration. Whoever said "only StP is played that much" missed what I wrote, as its across all formats I was talking about. I realize this is a deck designed for Legacy, but my point remains, in constructed, regen is a sucker ability. I'll argue that Masticore wouldn't be a good creature if he didn't have the 2: 1 to target creature on him and Troll wouldn't be a good creature without the "Can't be the target of spells or abilities that opponents control" on him. I don't want creatures that can "hold off a Thresh'd Werebear all day." I want a creature that can kill my opponent. If your busy screwing around in creature combat all the time that you think Regen is somehow an awesome ability (regardless of how aggro oriented this environment is) I question your ability to play Magic well (I realize this is an unpopular sentiment, and that you need to be able to do combat math, but seriously, Regen is a sucker ability).


I'm going to make a list of cards that you might actully run in to at a large tourney that kill you creatures:
Lightning Bolt
StP
Wrath
Lightning Rift
Gempalm
SCG
Pyroclasm
Sharpshooter
FTK
P. Blast
Burn.dec
Wing Shards
Scroll
Vindicate
Deed
The entire Combat Zone

Regen does not suck, for the following reasons - Your creatures beat Thres's due to the whole "my 4/4 is bigger than your 3/3" not working for them any more.
- Goblins has to build up for Alpha since it allows crazy card advantage otherwise.
- You beat RGSA. I'm not sure how they can deal with that w/o them having a perfect engine going.
- Anything Red in it, that is not Goblins, runs Pyroclasm.
- Any kind of random aggro (Red Death, Sligh, Green based aggro) dies.

Reasons it "must" suck - Being able to play defensivly against decks that have larger creatures in play makes you a bad player.
- Combat math makes it useless.
- Apparently Terminate, Darkblast (outside Friggorid), Putrefy, Incinerate, and Edicts are all heavily run, and no other removal is.
- Having another Muscle Sliver with extra stuff is not needed.

I'd run another Muscle Sliver if it was a 1/1 for three. The deck needs them, and Regen is nice just for the greatly needed ability to dodge half the removal in the Format.

[scrumdogg]

@Horned Sliver. I'm not really concerned whether or not this makes the cut. Just Rancor doesn't belong in here.

@Pyrostatic Pillar. This is a meh slot, I simply like the interaction between it and Vial, I like having Vial give me free Slivers and my opponent's spells to get them back into the game putting them further in the hole first. This is by no means a great card, just a suggestion for shoring up combo match in a strictly RG Vial Slivers deck (which again, would be dependant on the metagame you play in. I'm not a fan of running 8 fetches and "having one ready to roll" this is a big reason why Roland's UG Madness deck and Nick Tradeau's 4 Color Landstill deck did well was their use of Stifle + Wasteland).

@Ghost Quarter, I'm either ahead of the curve on this, or I'm wrong. I don't expect people to believe me if they aren't seeing evidence of it in their metagames, but I'm fairly positive Ghost Quarter is far better than most people think. I think come GP Colombus we'll see at least a handful of decks utilizing them. I'm not really concerned with people believing me or not, simply saying this deck will need to evolve when Ghost Quarter sees more play (or that in a specific metagame you might want a more solid manabase, but these meta's are few and far between).


@Regeneration. Whoever said "only StP is played that much" missed what I wrote, as its across all formats I was talking about. I realize this is a deck designed for Legacy, but my point remains, in constructed, regen is a sucker ability. I'll argue that Masticore wouldn't be a good creature if he didn't have the 2: 1 to target creature on him and Troll wouldn't be a good creature without the "Can't be the target of spells or abilities that opponents control" on him. I don't want creatures that can "hold off a Thresh'd Werebear all day." I want a creature that can kill my opponent. If your busy screwing around in creature combat all the time that you think Regen is somehow an awesome ability (regardless of how aggro oriented this environment is) I question your ability to play Magic well (I realize this is an unpopular sentiment, and that you need to be able to do combat math, but seriously, Regen is a sucker ability).

Anyways, I need food, I might make some more coherent arguments later in this thread, but not now (food is some good).


You start off so well, then become an ass. Why? It takes the focus away from your good points (like Horned > Rancor) & does not foster a good conversation about the other points, only creates hostility.

Being a Sliver is better than being an enchantment. Period. The Sliver gains all the other bonuses of all the other slivers & cannot be 2 for 1'ed by STP, which is everywhere. I may come around to the 6-8 1cc slivers in a 28 sliver model as the deck would be more of an aggro smash model. 1 drops are not a bad thing, but having only 4 (and for the sake of having a 1 drop) is silly. 6-8 makes a lot more sense to me. Also, it gives you slivers to sac for the amazing abilities of Acidic & Therapy. They require a sac & why would you want to sac a good sliver? Hmmm? Acidic should be a 4 of, imo, as you want then early and you'll need 2 since your first one is going to die.

Pyrostatic Pillar is a fine SB card because the decks you utilize it against don't really affect the resource you're losing.....

I believe you are ahead of the curve with Ghost Quarter. Crucible is already a good card & the ability to augment LD against basics is powerful. Especially if you can combine it with board sweeping LD like Armageddon, Ravages of War, Wildfire, etc. Having the ability to Ghost Quarter followed by one of those is particularly savage as it nets an extra land, often one of the rare basics in a deck, or they choose not to search, which case you just Strip Mined. That being said, until someone breaks the card in popular play it will remain hidden tech. Also, it makes Vial that much more important.

Regen is not a sucker ability, get off your high horse. It is a gravy ability, not one that you MUST get in play. But if you have the ability to do so, combat math becomes the problem for your opponent, not you. Always give your opponent the opportunity to make a mistake and added abilities & pressure do just that. Turning what would be trades into a one sided affair is quite powerful & if the build features burn, the options become even bleaker for your opponent as any damage leaking through puts them closer to the edge of crispy flaming death. Regen allows for plays that either simply could not (or should not) happen otherwise. Swinging 3 3/3 slivers into a threshed Werebear & Mongoose with cards in hand, Sedge on board, and at least B & R available. What was your board getting slapped turns into either 6-9 damage or 2 dead thresh critters (if you in fact do have a burn spell). Same applies if you were on the defensive, would you swing into that as the Thresh player? You have twice their creatures and Vial, time benefits you. Versus Goblins, negating their ability to easily remove your creatures should benefit you long term as your creatures, long game are superior to theirs (ala RG anything historically).

[NoGameShow]

.

[NoGameShow]

etsey

[Binary Star]

Here's my version of the deck. So far I've had pretty good matchups overall. I figure duress and bolt are needed, but I'm not sure what I would cut.


1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 wooded foothills
3 bloodstained mires
4 bayous
4 badlands
4 taigas
1 sliver queen
1 sliver overlord
1 blade sliver
1 horned sliver
2 ghostflame sliver
2 acidic sliver
2 metallic sliver
2 magma sliver
2 toxin sliver
2 mindlash sliver
2 brood sliver
2 hunter sliver
2 heart sliver
4 gemhide sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 sedge sliver
4 aether vial

sb:
1 choke
1 steely resolve
2 naturalize
2 root sliver
2 tormod's crypt
3 pyrostatic pillar
4 engineered plague

[GoTreK]

Mhh are you serious about that? Read the last pages and try to find out on your own why this deck sucks.

My creaturebase looks like that atm:
4 Muscle
4 Sedge
4 Spined
4 Acidic
4 Mindlash
3 Heart
3 Metallic

That makes 26 creatures

I tested with 4 Duress 4 Cabal Therapy to have a chance against combo but unfortunately there were too many matches in which they were nearly dead. At least not very useful. What do you think of scrumdogg's proposal to load the SB with combo hate? And only running Duress/Therapy main as a 4 of?

The problem is I didn't face many tier1 decks in MWS and mostly played vs pretty strange decks. I only played ~ 3 games (3 wins...) against B/w Confi which were in my favour due to my high threat density and the fact that I'm not that fragile towards LD.
My only real conclusion is though that our rogue aggro MU is pretty nice.

Gtg now... more later on

[bleachedazn]

As tempting or great as an aether vial sounds.. it only summons one creature per turn. Also, since this deck has three different types of mana, it might be difficult to get some of the multicolored slivers out. In this case, I suggest you use aluren. It is great in most cases, because most of your slivers cost 3 mana or less and you can play them for no mana cost, regardless of color, all slivers gain flash, and the abilities from your slivers have usually will decide the outcome of the game. The only weakness I see of including this card into sliver decks is that decks can disrupt it easily or you can't draw enough cards each turn to effectively utilize this card.

[HammafistRoob]

t3h ultimate necr0.

[THEchubbymuffin]

Nice Necro, personally I like the sliver survival. But vial should definately be in the deck instead of aluren. Aluren comes down turn three. Any sort of control deck can counter it by then. Discard would hit it by then too. Vial on turn one is hard to stop and is just good.