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VeniVidiVici
10-21-2006, 03:12 AM
A rather interesting twist on the Loam archetype, piloted by Yuichi Tanaki, won a side-event at PT Kobe. While the list looks unrefined, this thread is to analyse the deck and try and improve it as much as possible.

Here's Yuichi's list:

Landbase (23):
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Accelerants (6):
4 Mox Diamond
2 Exploration

Creatures (7):
4 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Genesis

Removal (6):
3 Lightning Helix
2 Krosan Grip

Board Sweep (11):
4 Smallpox
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Void
1 Pernicious Deed

Engine (7):
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam

Misc. (1):
1 Seismic Assault

Sideboard (15):
4 REB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Perish
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Massacre
1 Hull Breach
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Pyroclasm
1 Life from the Loam

At first glance, there are some obviously strange choices (e.g. Void) and the manabase looks fairly unstable (and indeed, I was often colourscrewed in my admittedly limited playtesting, as recurring a fetchland via Loam would have taken too much time).

This is not meant to be a primer, just as a discussion-starter.

I'll kick things off - should Vindicate be in here? Combined with the various LD effects it helps to manascrew the opponent, and is great for removing the various permanents that can plague you. If it is deserving of MD slots, what should be cut? Krosan Grip?

Does Nostalgic Dreams deserve a place, if not in the MD, at least in the SB?

Bane of the Living
10-21-2006, 07:30 AM
Im not surprised at the number of odd Loam decks springing up and snagging tournaments. Its a very powerfull card, very under valued in our format. I didnt think about playing it with Smallpox but it makes perfect sense since you recover 2 of the loses with loam, and dont play creatures.

This list does look janky. It needs more focus and less one ofs. Hierarch is over valued thanks to his merits in standard, but he has no place in a loam deck since he has 0 synergy with the deck.

23 lands looks seriously low for a loam deck. You need alot of land to maximize use of Mox Diamond and Exploration. You also want to dredge 1-2 lands at minimum with loam.

kirdape3
10-21-2006, 10:04 AM
Hierarch is chosen because it gives you a life buffer against aggressive decks and a nice blocker for 4 mana. It doesn't have to have synergy with the Smallpox/Life from the Loam skeleton - it just fills a needed role.

Watcher487
10-21-2006, 10:23 AM
Well I would picture more of a Eternal Garden variant on this as opposed to just Loam Assault/super sweeper.dec.

I do like the Eternal Witness/Dredge side-engine that he is running as well. It can really be potent when you establish control.

Cavius The Great
10-21-2006, 11:26 AM
After seeing this decklist, i really believe the original Pox would work wonders when combined with Loam. We may even have a new Pox variant on the way if someone finds a way to break it with Life From The Loam.

Bane of the Living
10-21-2006, 11:36 AM
Eternal Garden loses to combo.

This deck has combo disruption. It should have more imo, Hymn or Delirium Skiens would look nice. Or even just Duress or Therapy. In my testing with loam decks Wall of Blossoms and Witness are super sweet when playing Therapy.

I see what Hierarch does as a card Im not blind or stupid. I just dont see why the life gain is so needed. Small Pox is not Pox. Its 1 life, not 7. Lightining Helix is ok removal as far as legacy is concerned but now we have better things like the Split Second shock spell and -4/-4 spell. Cutting a color out of the deck would surely make it more consistant and leave room for more utility lands as well.

If I was to reconstruct the deck it would look more like this..

Mana 27
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Badlands
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Mox Diamond

Creatures 6
4 Eternal Witness
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Genesis

Engine 9
3 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
3 Exploration


Removal 18
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sudden Shock
4 Smallpox
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Seismic Assault

Sideboard (15):
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Perish
1 Shattering Spree
1 Massacre
1 Hull Breach
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Pyroclasm
1 Life from the Loam


It should be noted that this deck very closely resembles Land Ho! The deck Sexy Rector created. Maybe Small Pox was the perfect step to take the deck.

My list plays maindeck Chalice of the Void so I have some more combo disruption. Its also kick ass against thresh of course. I dont think the deck needed Engineered Explosives, I added Sudden Shock to take care of Meddling Mage naming Loam. Fuck you Force.

jazzykat
10-21-2006, 01:04 PM
OK, one question about the winners list. How does it beat combo of any sort let alone something like solidarity?

Zir
10-21-2006, 03:54 PM
It can't, I'm assuming he managed to dodge combo alltogether, much like Roland Chang never had to play any Goblins at GenCon, because this deck has no clock to speak of, and his disruption consists of 4 Smallpox MD and some ReBs and a lone blessing which hardly effects Solidarity without a good clock, let alone decks like Iggy Pop or Nausea.

Eldariel
10-21-2006, 04:30 PM
Devastating Dreams, Void and Burning Wishes help too, so while the MU definately isn't favourable, it's fully possible that he played some combo and got lucky.

Cavius The Great
10-21-2006, 04:46 PM
OK, one question about the winners list. How does it beat combo of any sort let alone something like solidarity?

I'm assuming the original Pox would be better at combating combo. :wink:

jazzykat
10-22-2006, 02:37 AM
It can't, I'm assuming he managed to dodge combo alltogether, much like Roland Chang never had to play any Goblins at GenCon, because this deck has no clock to speak of, and his disruption consists of 4 Smallpox MD and some ReBs and a lone blessing which hardly effects Solidarity without a good clock, let alone decks like Iggy Pop or Nausea.

Hmm...what a tech move: luck through your matchups. With that being said I do play DAL a lot but that is because the tournaments I play in usually never go above 12 people and no one plays combo and if they do it is so shitty a duress and a dreams just beats them.

hagar852
10-22-2006, 06:27 PM
Why not use the Grave Shell Scarab. This might have some potential.

Maveric78f
10-23-2006, 03:31 AM
Hierarch is over valued thanks to his merits in standard, but he has no place in a loam deck since he has 0 synergy with the deck.

I like temple acolyte as a low cost hierarch (life giver, good blocker). The only good thing with loxodon in this deck is that you can sacrifice it when you want and then, if you have enough mana gain 4 life each turn.

I really believe that this deck have problems against combo : high tide because it can counter the problematic cards : smallpox and most of all devastating dreams. And IGGy Pop, because it's too fast for it.

When I saw this build I was building a Gbw trini-turboland (31 lands). And I didn't think by myself of smallpox. So, just for that, thank you Kobe-winner. Compared to his build, the trinisphere gives a good support against combo but I lose compared to this deck the recursivity (that I find too much graveyard dependant) and the red strengths : devastating dreams, pyroclasm, ... So finally I move the matchup from anti-aggro and anti-controle to an regular matchup against most of the decks.
I can't say that my mana base is better that his one because, if I play only 3 colors, I play also a lot of special lands : maze (4), tabernacle (2), mishra (4), wastelands (4), nantuko (2), ...
I'm thinking about leaving the white (which was used MD only for nantuko and in SB for rule of law) for the red : for devastating dreams mostly (also for pyrostatic pillar), so that I would be able to get the maze and the tabernacle off for less situationnal lands (killers for example like more manlands and the red threshold land that punches for 2).

valor
10-23-2006, 09:30 PM
Wouldnt this deck be better off trying to do something earlier than having to gain life? I agree on not seeing the value of the white splash here.
I would imagine that the Aggro matchups are good enough that he could afford Duress somewhere here for that horrible combo matchup, and possibly some way of winning before turn 10.
This is a real risky suggestion but how bad is Negator in here? Its already designed to take advantage of the graveyard anway. Then again that might not be what this needs.
Isnt there also the Red dude that has Power/Toughness equal to lands in graveyards? Wouldnt even that be a better win condition?
If I were playing this I would take out white for something that would prevent me from needing the lifegain.

Maveric78f
10-24-2006, 05:19 AM
I first want to put a disclaimer that I'm not criticizing the winning deck. The good idea, he got it, and I did not : it's to play smallpox with Life from the loam. I'm going to explain how I would use the colors.

If we analyze what the colors are offering in this deck :
- green : engine of the deck, recursivity. You can't make it without it.
- red : anti-creatures mainly. It's blast and blast and the tutor of the deck (burning wish).
- black : it should be mainly disruption and side power (anti green / anti white). Why play massacre in side ? Why play void MD ? Why play pernicious deed although it will crush all our moxen and exploration ?
- white : it's life gain here and only that.

I agree that the white is useless, let's just play 1 or 2 zuran orb and it's a way more synergic. I don't like the creature recursion engine neither : it's too expensive in mana and in slots. Moreover I find it also too much graveyard oriented. I would also abandon burning wish because it's ruining the side and all the solutions may already be MD. Here is my proposition of list :

4* LftL
1* Crucible (debatable whether to include a random crucible)
4* Small Pox
3* Devastating dreams (the best reason to play red)
3* Trinisphere (the best way to get advantage of the mana disruption)
4* Dark confidant (it's a 29 land deck, so that confidant is perfect)
1* Zuran Orb (debatable also whether to play it MD)
4* Exploration
3* Krosan Grip (complementary with devastating dreams)

Mana :

4* Mox Diamond

1* The Tabernacle

4* Mishra
4* Wasteland

3* Wooded Foothills
1* Taiga
2* Bayou
1* Badlands

3* Barbarian Ring
2* Village
2* Cabal Pit

2* Tranquil Thicket
2* Barren Moor
2* Forgotten Cave

SB :

Anti-combo/controle :
4* Cabal therapy (good with mishras)
2* Hymn to tourach

Anti-aggro :
4* Pyroclasm
2* Zuran orb

Anti-a-bit-everything :
3* pithing needle

I'm really tempted to abandon the red too, but the aggro matchup becomes very difficult then, so that you have to play death cloud (better than deed in most cases imho), and it's becoming a nearly rock deck.

The deck list is then :

4* LftL
1* Crucible
4* Small Pox
3* Death Cloud
3* Trinisphere (the best way to get advantage of the mana disruption)
4* Dark confidant (it's a 29 land deck, so that confidant is perfect)
2* Zuran Orb
4* Exploration
2* Krosan Grip (complementary with death cloud)

Mana :

4* Mox Diamond

1* The Tabernacle

4* Mishra
4* Wasteland
2* Ancient Tomb

2* Wooded Foothills
4* Bayou

2* Village
4* Cabal Pit

3* Tranquil Thicket
2* Barren Moor

SB :

Anti-combo/controle :
4* Cabal therapy (good with mishras)
2* Hymn to tourach

Anti-aggro :
4* Drop of honey
2* Zuran orb

Anti-a-bit-everything :
3* pithing needle

Bane of the Living
10-25-2006, 08:11 PM
Cutting red is bad. I played G/W loam for a while and really missed its tutoring power. Gamble is one of the craziest tutors in the format in this deck. Turn one Gamble to get Loam is flawless and beautiful. Loam + Gamble + B Wish = always loam in your opening hand. Burning Wish is slow unless playing with Exploration, remember that. With it, its crazy. I actually run a copy of Rude Awakning in my build of Diddle Dal. Dont laugh, it works amazingly. You have a nack for doing nothing aggressive for a long time. You kill creatures, you blow up lands, you continue to dredge and play lands 2-3 a turn. 8 lands comes fast. 10 lands come nearly as fast. The look on your opponents face is truely enjoyable and the Mirrodin days nostalgia is nice too.

Tacosnape
10-26-2006, 04:23 PM
The single copies of cards are one of the major strengths of the deck, not a weakness. The fact that he had ridiculous amounts of recursion with Witness/Genesis and lots of dredge gave made his graveyard a toolbox.

I agree that I don't like White in the deck, as it seems to be only in there for lifegain in the form of Loxodon Hierarch / Lightning Helix. This could just as easily be Ravenous Baloth / Lightning Bolt for a more solid manabase and faster removal, but the lifegain in this deck might be more crucial than it looks.

I would also like to run a second Genesis, as I feel getting the Genesis/Witness engine going is crucial and having your Genesis sitting at the bottom of your library doesn't help things.

I'm intrigued and will have to try this deck out.

Zilla
10-26-2006, 05:01 PM
I see what Hierarch does as a card Im not blind or stupid. I just dont see why the life gain is so needed.
Because it's a relatively slow control deck that will lose to fast, highly aggressive decks like Burn if it doesn't have some kind of a countermeasure. This isn't rocket surgery.

Vardaman
10-27-2006, 01:17 PM
The white lets you get up to 4 counters with Engineered Explosives, fwiw. He is playing 3 of them main.

(Actually, you can get up to 5 counters if you count Mox Diamond.)

Bane of the Living
10-27-2006, 05:04 PM
Because it's a relatively slow control deck that will lose to fast, highly aggressive decks like Burn if it doesn't have some kind of a countermeasure. This isn't rocket surgery.

Not every control deck needs to use that philosophy. I've played control decks without lifegain plenty of times in the past. You just need to make up for your lack of an early game. In his case adding Wall of Blossoms, or Wall of Roots, would go a long way. Maybe not against burn but wtf would this deck do about Price of Progress anyways.

I would suggest people playing the deck to test without focusing too much on the Genesis engine. It's slow as balls and it makes the deck more graveyard dependant which is a bad idea. People are already siding in Crypts against you. Dont make them more painfull.

Maveric78f
10-30-2006, 11:50 AM
Against Price of Progress, just play zuran orb, it's awesome as soon as you play exploration and life from the loam.

I've tried my land oriented, rock (see the list few posts ago) and I made some changes like play 3*darkblast MD, just to deal with the biggest creature threats in the metagame : lackey and confidant but also and most of all to be able to dredge and then find a life from the loam quite easily. The build is descent against all kind of control and most of the combo decks but is raced by most of aggro and aggro control (mostly deadguy ale).
Actually, death cloud is bad, devastating dreams is 1 billion times better because it's very cheap to cast, it's complementary with smallpox (which could be called smalldeathcloud actually) and it's not hurting yourself. I'm also not convinced by trinisphere which is relevant only against combo because we are rarely fast enough to ruin the opponent mana base.

I totally agree that gamble is very powerful in this deck, so much that I would cut the burning wishes which are often slow and ruining the sideboard.

I insist that :
- cabal pit is a great card : gets rid of small red protected creatures.
- dark confident is great in this deck
- I don't understand why running genesis instead of several copies (2 or 3) of fortress. Fortress gives mana, fortress goes away with a mow diamond. The only good reason I see is to prevent an easy lock of the witness recursion but as somebody said, it's not that recursion that makes you win, you can easily play around that. And there are so many things to pithing now : barbarian ring, fetches, wastelands, mishras, cabal pits, Engineered Explo, pernicious deedseismic assault, ... I don't know exactly which one you are going to include but it's at least 5 of them.
- trinisphere and cabal therapy in side is good against combo, and most of control decks.
- krosan grip is awesome against grave hate. krosan grip + cabal therapy forces the opponent to play its grave hate as a morning tide which is bad for him. Krosan grip is always precious anyway.
- between Engineered Explo and pernicious deed, I can't make my choice. Deed is much better but it's destroying all our moxen and exploration. Enginneered explo is safe under dark confidant nad more selective in the destruction... Sometimes I wonder if Crime//Punishment would not be the best. But it's a 7 life lost with dark confidant...

Edit :

I added Sudden Shock to take care of Meddling Mage naming Loam. Fuck you Force.
=> cabal pit or barbarian ring is so better for that...

I forgot also to talk about the kagemaro. It's a good idea I think, as much a kill as a table solution.

Peter_Rotten
10-30-2006, 02:13 PM
Bumping due to stupid board issues that won't let users see page two of this thread.

Bane of the Living
11-01-2006, 08:50 PM
You shouldnt rely on Barbarian Ring to do anything ever. Its nice when it works out but you arent playing Crop Rotation or Gamble so theres no way to find it when you need it. You also cant rely on thresh because people DO bring in yard hate against you.

Im wondering what this guy does against Leyline of the Void. Its been loams biggest problem in testing. More Krosan Grips?

Maveric78f
11-06-2006, 07:26 AM
Well I did not show the list, but I play gamble in the GRB version of this deck.

Yard hate is not that much a problem. Once the hate is off, it's very fast to get 7 cards in graveyard, by dredging, playing smallpox, gamble, devastating dreams, ... Counterspells on mox diamond during the first turns are at least as much a problem as that. The most problematic grave hate is the leyline but he's got 7 cards to get rid of it : wish and krosan grip. You can easily get rid of the other grave hates with EE or Crime/punishment.

Red is offering pretty good cards (first of all gamble and devastating dreams) that can't be cut off. I'm now convinced that the best version includes red.

Here is the list I play at this moment :

// Lands (27)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [U] Plateau
1 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [U] Badlands
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
2 [OD] Cabal Pit
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [U] Bayou
2 [B] Taiga
2 [ON] Forgotten Cave
2 [ON] Barren Moor
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures (4)
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells (29)
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [US] Exploration
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [TS] Smallpox
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
2 [TS] Krosan Grip
1 [EX] Seismic Assault
3 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
3 [TO] Devastating Dreams
4 [US] Gamble

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [TS] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [TE] Scorched Earth
SB: 4 [BOK] Crack the Earth
SB: 2 [P3] Rolling Earthquake
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid

Crack the earth is a great card against combo. Scorched earth too if you're a bit late...

Bane of the Living
11-06-2006, 07:24 PM
Maveric I like your list and it certainly sounds like your putting work into things but I can tell you havent played a single game against Leyline. Starting the game against leyline is such an uphill battle that you lose all your resources trying to remove it.

Look at it this way just to put it in prospective.

Opening Leyline->
Turn one: Play a fetchland, play a Mox Diamond, discard and fetch. Play Burning Wish.

Even if you got your free accelerant you just lost 2 important cards to Leyline. 3 If you count the card you got to blow it up. It doesnt seem like a big deal but you could've played the turn one Loam, getting back 2 lands and being ready for turn 2 dredge.

If your opponent follows up with turn one Duress, Therapy, or Hymn you probably lose. If your opponent goes first they get to take your Grip or Wish first.

If you didnt get your first turn accel you need to wish turn 2 and wait till turn 3 to kill Leyline. Thats 3 turns to deal with the bane of your deck.

Even if you got the perfect Burning Wish into Simplify you lost too much gas trying doing so. You lost everything that went into the yard. You need to cast Loam with NO targets and dredge it back as a USELESS loam unless it dredges at least 2 lands that turn. Diddling with Burning Wish and Loam for those turns should get you killed.

BTW Crack the Earth is nice tech, I was looking into Raze but Crack is better since its on resolution of the spell and Raze requires a land as cost.

Maveric78f
11-07-2006, 03:19 AM
First of all I don't play burning wish, so that I'm not going to do what you tell. I'll just play gamble, my opponent won't know what I got to my hand because he doesn't know my deck.

Moreover the decks you are talking about is very slow, so that I'll have time to get rid of the leyline to start over later.

Against IGGy Pop, it's another problematic, it can be playing Leyline at least after sideboard and it's very fast. Even without leyline, IGGy Pop is very problematic, so that I'm not sure that leyline would be the main threat and you should just try to hurt his hand and his lands, afterwards you could think of getting rid of the leyline. Against Iggy Pop, the main deck's tormod's crypt can give also some tempo (Iggy is gonna wait for a double tendrils tech or for a bouncer, that could be played during the same turn as the combo).

So yes grave hate in general are a problem BUT :
- the most common anti grave : tormod's crypt is bad against the deck.
- the wretch is also quite bad : if it comes late, the cabal pits or barbarian rings will rule it. In the other cases, the opponent will need to spend a lot of mana to remove all the cards that go to our yard.
- planar void : problematic if played at the opponent's first turn, useless if not but we've got a lot of maindeck solutions.
- Leyline : it's the worst because it's impossible to remove with punishment so that we'll probably have to make a risky gamble.

Counterspells are more problematic because they can cut our early mana (mox diamond), because they will never let ut do a devastating dreams and it's very hard to see our devastating dream countered, and because counterspells are played MD, in aggro decks (Wub Hanniu fish, Threshold, UGr madness, ...) and combo decks (solidarity, Xxx Tide, aluren).

Tacosnape
11-16-2006, 03:30 AM
I insist that :
- cabal pit is a great card : gets rid of small red protected creatures.

No, it isn't. So do Void, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, and Smallpox.



- dark confident is great in this deck


No, it's fair in this deck at best. It doesn't survive a Smallpox or a Devastating Dreams, and if it lives a single turn it nets you the same number of cards as Witness for one less mana with a life penalty and the inability to choose your card.



- trinisphere and cabal therapy in side is good against combo, and most of control decks.


Trinisphere is awful in a deck where a spell you must play over and over again costs less than 3 mana.

Now then, on to a new suggestion. Has anyone tried Werebear or Chronosavant (Henceforth known as Crono) in this deck?

Werebear doubles as a kill condition and assistance in replaying Loam, and he beautifully survives a Devastating Dreams for 3 or less, given that the cards you pitch as part of the cost will send you into Threshold (It almost always will.)

Crono requires a mild white splash (One white-based dual and a few Gemstone Mines are usually enough,) but allows a ridiculous play with four mana to Devastating Dreams for your entire hand (4+ is ideal) and return Crono to play. Crono also survives a dreams for 4 when out, which is awesome, considering a dreams for 4 kills seriously almost everything in the format (All Goblins, Mongoose, Werebear, Jotun Grunt, Confidant, you name it.), and Crono can easily swing lethal after this play before your opponent can recover.

Thoughts?

Maveric78f
11-16-2006, 04:12 AM
Tacosnape, please read my last posts before quotting me. Except yuor first remark, all of your criticism is so much right that I did the same observation as you (look at my last list : no confidant, no cabal therapy, no trinisphere, just 1 in SB because it can be very helpful sometimes).


Chronosavant
I don't see why we would need another kill condition than witness and barbarian ring.


Werebear
Dies too easily to smallpox or EE or punishment. I don't think that playing a regular creature (with no come into play nor recursive ability) is a good idea.

As I said, I don't think that the deck needs any additional kill but if you really think I would rather play some gigapede, grave-shell scarab or loxodon hierarch : all of them are immune to STP.


Cabal pit
Compared to your solutions, cabal pit has at least 4 of these advantages :
- opponent can only stifle it.
- no need to have witness out to have it recursive
- it's quite cheap : 2 mana.
- it's never a dead card : it's part of the coloured mana base
- doesn't allow regeneration (not very important in the metagame but it can help sometimes for some boa for instance)
Of course threshold and targettability are constraints but it's anyway an enhancement of regular swamps.