[Discussion] The Future of Survival

[Iranon]

Disclaimer:

Anything that follows reflects my personal opinion, not universal truth. I hope my points are valid enough to serve as starting points for a discussion of whether Survival decks still have potential, and in which direction they would have to evolve to do so.

***

1. The past:

Some people rate Survival of the Fittest as one of the top 5 cards in the format, others call it the most overestimated one. As an avid Survival player, I belong to the former group - for a complete card-advantage + selection engine in one spell, there is nothing finer (well, Goblin Lackey if you look at it that way... *mutter*)
Why isn't it dominating Legacy then? I believe the main reason is that the historical implementations, while internally consistent, are intrinsically flawed. That's a big statement, so let me elaborate:

1.1 Survival Advantage: Plenty of Acceleration, some Fat, gradually building up a permanent advantage in plays that are strong but unimpressive by themselves - might as well add 2 Verdant Forces and bring a bag of Dinosaur tokens. When is the last time Midrange Aggro has been anything near competitive?
It's a testament to the power of Survival that the deck isn't a complete dud, and was even considered a DtB for a while. The engine further augments the archetype's strengths and weakness - crush random Aggro, lose horribly to anything explosive (Combo, modern Aggro on a good draw) without being fast enough to have an edge over well-built Control either.

1.2 Full English Breakfast: While I personally think this is one of the most hilarious deck concepts ever, any Combo that doesn't reliably outrace Burn is suspect in the extreme unless it has some very strong selling points (such as immunity to common hate or complete control of the stack). That the combo itself circumvents the stack for a great deal of resilence would be such a strong point - if it wasn't so easy to attack the engine that powers it. Since the advent of Pithing Needle, relying entirely on Survival is no longer feasible and FEB is severely lacking without the primary combo enabler.

1.3 Angry Tradewind Survival: Don't get me wrong, always pulling the appropriate answer out of your arse Keeper-style is fantastic. Several things are very wrong with the deck though:
First, the objective should be to build the best deck around your engine, not the deck that can get the most mileage out of it. While this can conceivably win without an active Survival, most of the topdecks won't be too useful due to their specialised nature. And if you get Survival active - do you actually need the flexibility? The sheer power should enable you to win in the near future instead of messing about with excessive answers and bad locks (unless you just have a sadistic streak and play Stasis decks for fun...)
Second, permanent-based control is pretty suspect anyway because it requires hefty investments and gives your opponent avenues to interfere with your game plan. The gamebreaking effects of a Chant-stick or a Solitary Confinement outclass the versatility of a Survival toolbox, and even those decks are hardly dominant because of the inherent weaknesses of relying on permanents.

***

2. Present and Future:

So far my issues with past decks, now to the more relevant question - what to do about the perceived shortcomings? In my opinion, there are several requirements a good Survival deck should fulfill by today's more demanding standards; in a way it needs to incorporate the best of what the old decks did.


2.1 It needs to be able to defend itself and apply relevant pressure, with or without a Survival. While RGSA has some qualitiy beatsticks, they are simply too slow. Walls don't present a clock, won't help against evasion (at least ground beaters can try to race) and are mere chump blockers in the face of abominations like Goblin Piledriver and Arcbound Ravager.

2.2 It needs to win in a timely fashion; todays decks are too explosive to be buried under gradual card advantage and dubious locks. At the same time, it needs to give a far better account of itself witout a Survival than FEB did. This means the combo either needs to consist of only a few slots, the cards need to be at least moderately useful on their own or both. Personally, I like Kiki-Jiki + Sky Hussar, despite the considerable mana cost, colour requirements and fragility. The individual components are useful in their own right, and there are ways around all the problems that don't compromise the integrity of the deck.
An Elves!-style mana engine combined with an appropriate finisher should work as well,and there are probably some other options I overlooked.

2.3 While the tutor function of Survival is a great boon, there is no need to get carried away with it. With the card pool available, it requires less slots and less time to win outright than to seize control; hence the 'solutions' need only be a stopgap measure. At a minimum, a toolbox consisting of efficient life gain (to buy time against aggro), some form of disruption (to buy time against combo or to combat permission) and bounce (to get rid of any permanents that keep you from winning) would be sufficient. Anything else that wouldn't be maindeckable without a tutor engine is dubious. It also bears mentioning that even a large toolbox won't be infallible. For example, most efficient tutorable enchantment hate fails against either Humility or Solitary Confinement.

***

3. Summary:

I think Survival decks need to be faster and more proactive than they used to be. A fundamental turn of 4 with a combo finish is realistic without sacrificing more than 2-3 slots. Against most decent decks, disruption and maindeckable hate (e.g. Meddling Mage, Jötun Grunt) are superior to specialised answers and the toolbox should reflect that. Things that merely prevent you from losing, and need a Survival active for that, have no place in the main deck (such as a Frog lock). With these changes, I'd be surprised if an optimised build couldn't give a good account of itself, possibly even becoming one of the format-defining decks.

***

How do other people think about this? Would the steps outlined help at all, and can there be something as a top-tier Survival deck in the current environment?

[Complete_Jank]

I'll be the first to jump in here I guess.

I think Survival is a strong card, but there are too many answers for it that are run right now, so a deck that runs it needs to be able to function without Survival, as well as with it. Also, any deck running it will need to be able to beat Solidarity, Goblins, and Threshold, or at least 2 of 3.

Currently problems for almost all Survival decks are as follows:
1. Pithing Needle is in almost every sideboard.
2. Humility, while not wide-spread, if you don't do something by his/her turn 4, you have a problem.
3. Graveyard hate is out in force because of Iggy and Threshold
4. The need of green colored mana slows down the deck. If it was colorless, well...
5. Survival isn't at face-value a card advantage card.


I have taken shots at different builds that have taken advantage of Survival, but were not the typical builds.

Build #1
I used it in a deck based around combo of Eureka, 2x Kokusho, and Lifeline. The deck also ran Goblin Welder, Sundering Titan, Burning Wish, and Cabal Therapy. I like the deck because it had answers for anything, but it still lacked what it needed. It was a slow combo deck that had more than one way to win.

This deck had difficulty dealing with Solidarity & Iggy, but ran well against Goblins & Control decks. The deck also didn't need to use the graveyard, and thus could get around first turn Leyline of the Void, Planer Void, and Tormod's Crypt.


Build #2
I noticed how more often than not I was winning games by locking my opponent down with Sundering Titan, so I designed my current deck around the ability to win with that, and added Triskelion for control against Goblins. I like my current build, but there is still a problem.

The deck needs another card. I currently use 3x Intuition, and have tried 3x Thirst for Knowledge, but what is really needed is a card that is an instant for 2 mana that allows you to search your library for two cards, and either you or your opponent puts one of them into the grave. It still wouldn't be real card advantage, but it would be exactly what the deck needs. Heck it could be white and only search for Enchantments and Artifacts, and it would still be 95% of what is needed. (Only time it wouldn't be the card needed is if you need to get Anger or Genesis in grave.)

Intuition isn't card advantage. Thirst for Knowledge doesn't always get you where you want to be. Even Gifts Ungiven doesn't work. Cost of all three of these cards is slightly higher than what is optimal for the deck.

The nice thing about this current build is that it crushes Solidarity, is Strong against Goblins, has an ok match-up against Threshold, and with luck can beat Iggy.



Survival will continue to be strong, but it needs to change into more of a combo deck. The old days of tool box are pretty much over. Rofellos along with FTK don't make the cut anymore either. I'm pretty sure you'll be seeing cards printed in the Time Spiral block that will be making it into Survival builds though.

[iOWN]

Currently problems for almost all Survival decks are as follows:
1. Pithing Needle is in almost every sideboard.
2. Humility, while not wide-spread, if you don't do something by his/her turn 4, you have a problem.
3. Graveyard hate is out in force because of Iggy and Threshold
4. The need of green colored mana slows down the deck. If it was colorless, well...
5. Survival isn't at face-value a card advantage card.

1. It really isn't played as much as some think, but it does see the sideboards of Thresh and FS. Any Survival deck should have an answer for when it's tapped out/unusable, such as Enlightened Tutor or Burning Wish.

2. Humility is not that big of a deal. Survival propels a constant army of creatures, so you should be able to deal with it. And anyways, if you have an answer for Pithing Needle, you have an answer for this.

3. This is probably the biggest problem other than mana intensivity that the deck has right now. The only thing you can do is try to include less of Squee and Incarnations and more of a reliable in-play strategy.

4. ...it would be banned. I'd change that to "the need of mana to activate slows the deck." You have to be donating mana to it in order for it to work well, so color doesn't really matter.


Rofellos along with FTK don't make the cut anymore either.

Please repeat that?
...

Rofellos... you never have to include him, but most do in the place of a mana producer which takes away not from consistency, as the deck is mana hungry, and you usually would rather have Rofellos than anything else.

But FTK? WTF?

[Complete_Jank]

Please repeat that?
...

Rofellos... you never have to include him, but most do in the place of a mana producer which takes away not from consistency, as the deck is mana hungry, and you usually would rather have Rofellos than anything else.

But FTK? WTF?

Rofellos is to slow to be of use against most decks these days.

FTK is narrow in comparison to Triskelion. FTK can be useless and unplayable sometimes, because of it's come into play effect.

[iOWN]

Rofellos is to slow to be of use against most decks these days.

FTK is narrow in comparison to Triskelion. FTK can be useless and unplayable sometimes, because of it's come into play effect.

Rofellos, under an anger, is most definitely no slower than any two drop in existence.

Err... maybe in your deck Triskelion is better, but when you're talking about Rofellos being slow, Triskelion is really slow without a Welder, where FTK is an exceptionally aggressive and stronger card.

[Complete_Jank]

Rofellos, under an anger, is most definitely no slower than any two drop in existence.

Err... maybe in your deck Triskelion is better, but when you're talking about Rofellos being slow, Triskelion is really slow without a Welder, where FTK is an exceptionally aggressive and stronger card.


I'm pretty sure I cut all 2 drop creatures from my deck. The only creatures that cost more than 1 are creatures that are able to be welded in, have effects in the graveyard, or help gain card advantage against control.

Yes, Triskelion is slow, but Rofellos is useless by himself. Triskelion can come out as early as Turn 2, and FTK is a Turn 3 earliest creature. Now those are perfect senarios, but Triskelion can hold it's shot, and be a blocker, then pick off up to three other critters. I like the chance of 4 for 1 better than a possible 2 for 1, or even possibly a 0 for 1. Let's also mention Triskellion can hit the dome as well.

[Goblin Snowman]

I'm pretty sure I cut all 2 drop creatures from my deck. The only creatures that cost more than 1 are creatures that are able to be welded in, have effects in the graveyard, or help gain card advantage against control.

CotV FTL. Roffey is gotten simply for the reason that you cannot produce enough mana with your Birds and land to power SotF. He lets you do that.


Yes, Triskelion is slow, but Rofellos is useless by himself.[/QUOTE[

Well, since you need a Welder to make him playable, I'd say he's also useless by himself. Like you can cast him, but it isn't likely, more so without Rofellos.

[QUOTE=Complete_Jank;95703]Triskelion can come out as early as Turn 2, and FTK is a Turn 3 earliest creature. Now those are perfect senarios, but Triskelion can hold it's shot, and be a blocker, then pick off up to three other critters.

And FTK is capable of killing Werebear. And then proceeding to trade with another. FTW blocks just fine.


I like the chance of 4 for 1 better than a possible 2 for 1, or even possibly a 0 for 1. Let's also mention Triskellion can hit the dome as well.


I like the 4/2 for 3R with an almost certian 2 for 1, as opposed to the chance of eating a Lackey or three. Also, there is almost no chance of Hard-casting Trike without Roffey.

[Vardaman]

Yes, Triskelion is slow, but Rofellos is useless by himself.

What are you talking about? He beats for two. ;)

[Lukas Preuss]

Tao's Rock Survival list is probably the best Survival deck in the format right now. He has won the Source's online tournament twice with that deck and it has put up impressive results at large events in Germany...

[Complete_Jank]

There is a reason you don't see ATS or other Survival builds that use to be common. Those decks aren't competitive with the current decks that rule the format right now.

If Survival is going to be competative now, the decks need to change, and slower versions of the deck will continue to be inferior.


As for Triskelion and FTK, they both have their uses, but the sole fact that Triskelion can be welded back into play for repeated use for free, makes it a little more valuable. Reoccuring FTK costs 5GR.

[iOWN]

There is a reason you don't see ATS or other Survival builds that use to be common. Those decks aren't competitive with the current decks that rule the format right now.

If Survival is going to be competative now, the decks need to change, and slower versions of the deck will continue to be inferior.


As for Triskelion and FTK, they both have their uses, but the sole fact that Triskelion can be welded back into play for repeated use for free, makes it a little more valuable. Reoccuring FTK costs 5GR.

What happens when somebody plays a Mogg Fanatic? Or a Tormod's Crypt? Really, you can't rely on such a fragile creature or graveyard recursion, especially when comparing creatures. FTK is 4 mana for a 4/2, which pretty much will kill any creature played in the format (except a Mongoose or something) when you play it. Automatic 2-for-1. Triskelion can deal a couple damage, but costs 6, and requires you to shrink it in order to do so. FTK is a better choice, unless you are play WeldSur, when it is pretty obvious that the whole strategy is to be recurring large artifacts.

And RGSA is still played and still competes just fine.

[Solpugid]

I'll have to agree with iOWN here. If you're playing welder survival, then of course trike is better. But if you're running a basic survival deck, and you have red in it, then FTK is miles better. I think we're getting back to the idea that the cards in this deck need to be competetive with or without the engine online. Trike, when topdecked, is pretty terrible more often than he's good. Not so with FTK.

[Complete_Jank]

I'll have to agree with iOWN here. If you're playing welder survival, then of course trike is better. But if you're running a basic survival deck, and you have red in it, then FTK is miles better. I think we're getting back to the idea that the cards in this deck need to be competetive with or without the engine online. Trike, when topdecked, is pretty terrible more often than he's good. Not so with FTK.

I agree on that a 4cc card is beter than a 6cc card when top-decked, but FTK can be dead if there are no critters on the table, unless you plan on blowing up one of yours. I have seen way to many StP's go on the stack in response to a FTK.

By themselves, I will say FTK is better because of cost, but can sometimes be worthless. Trike's only draw back is cost, and thus makes in not Situational x2 like FTK.

Where I am going in saying that Trike is better, is that out of most decks that play Survival, the ones that take the traditional approach and play FTK's are not the ones that are making themselves stronger than the field, or even equal. They are making themselves sub-par to the main decks now played.

The Future of Survival is not to stay the same, the decks need to change.

[Goblin Snowman]

The Future of Survival is not to stay the same, the decks need to change.


RG(B)SA is a competative deck, as is RecSur and Welder Survival. But unless you can show me why a current thing is better than these decks, I'm not likely to change it. If we change lists frequently, then we will most likely down-grade the decks. You don't fix a decent deck unless you can certinly make it better. I'm going to come out and say it, I don't think that Welder Survival is that great of a deck. I have played against it, and it almost never won, crazy Top-decks aside. Relience on an Enchantment and a 1/1 that does nothing without said enchantment seems worse to me than playing R/G beatz that can randomly win games with Survival.

[Di]

The Future of Survival is not to stay the same, the decks need to change.

How very true this is, but that is true for any deck attempting to come back into the metagame. After a deck fades out, later when it eventually trys coming back, it obviously needs to be adapted to the current environment. In ATS's case, the printing of Pithing Needle caused the deck's fading. However, Needle isn't as played as much as anyone originally anticipated, and it is incredibly easy to get around it with a proper build.


First, the objective should be to build the best deck around your engine, not the deck that can get the most mileage out of it. While this can conceivably win without an active Survival, most of the topdecks won't be too useful due to their specialised nature.

Speaking on behalf of ATS, which I've completely tuned and refined over the last few months, I'd say that this statement is now completely false :) The deck is quite strong, to be honest. It hung around when there were much stronger decks like Dragon, Drain Landstill, and wMud, and it held it's own there, and it can do the same now. All it requires is a build that isn't entirely reliant on Survival, which is easy as pie :) Anyone who wants my ATS list can just PM me for proof.


Second, permanent-based control is pretty suspect anyway because it requires hefty investments and gives your opponent avenues to interfere with your game plan.

How is permanent-based control any more suspect than traditional control? Sure, there are plenty of cards that affect your board, but there are also plenty of cards that attack traditional control (eg. discard, etc). If anything, I would assume permanent-based control would be great for the metagame currently due to the focus on the current control decks.

Besides, considering the flexibility of Survival decks, it hasn't ever been that big of a deal when people chuck stuff at you. It's expected. If you can't get around that, then you improperly built your deck.


While RGSA has some qualitiy beatsticks, they are simply too slow. Walls don't present a clock, won't help against evasion (at least ground beaters can try to race) and are mere chump blockers in the face of abominations like Goblin Piledriver and Arcbound Ravager.


Too slow? You make it sound like these decks have to be designed to go to the throat and be all-out aggressive and not provide any sort of defense for themselves. Walls are there to serve a variety of functions. They add mana or draw a card, and they block everything in the first turns of the game. By taking out those blockers, you only give yourself a better shot at getting hit by a Lackey. Did you forget about Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator? They kill things with a small ass. Wall bypass this. Against a deck like Goblins, you don't need to win as fast as you can. All you need to do is stop their early assault, and if you succeed with that you win, as the Survival player gets access to more threats through the stretch. Those early Walls give you the time you need to find whatever else you need.


It needs to win in a timely fashion; todays decks are too explosive to be buried under gradual card advantage and dubious locks

I think you're overestimating the top decks a bit. Goblins is really the only explosive deck out there. I suppose Solidarity can be included in here too, but the deck isn't all that fast. However, Threshold isn't lightning fast. It wins by making a threat and then controlling the board. Consistant Survival decks can't win that fast, but they can act like Threshold does. Basically, I'm saying aggro-control (or just aggro) is the only way Survival decks can survive in the format. Play a threat or two, back it up with removal or disruption or something, and win.


Anything else that wouldn't be maindeckable without a tutor engine is dubious. It also bears mentioning that even a large toolbox won't be infallible. For example, most efficient tutorable enchantment hate fails against either Humility or Solitary Confinement.


Agreed. I myself have found that out in testing over the last few months. Silver-bullets have limited options that are weak outside of their intended situation, therefore, it's important to find cards that can work multiple options so you can minimize tutor slots and maximize efficiency. For example, swap Spore Frog for an FTK. Both serve to fight aggro, but Spore Frog is incredibly weak outside of an aggro-intense situation, where FTK kills a guy (of which could be Meddling Mage or something very nasty), blocks, and also smacks for 4. That swap gives an increase in the deck's potential threat ratio (something that can win the game), as well as additional removal.


1. Pithing Needle is in almost every sideboard.
2. Humility, while not wide-spread, if you don't do something by his/her turn 4, you have a problem.
3. Graveyard hate is out in force because of Iggy and Threshold
4. The need of green colored mana slows down the deck. If it was colorless, well...
5. Survival isn't at face-value a card advantage card.


These have already been answersed, but to chime in:

1. Build the deck with a primary gameplan outside of Survival. I don't mean Survival is a secondary thing, I just mean design the deck so that it's easy to win without it, and that isn't hard to do at all, basically making Needle a non-issue.

2. Moot point. Humility never sees play.

3. Graveyard hate isn't that much of an issue for Survival. People greatly overestimate the strength of cards like Tormod's Crypt vs. decks like these. The deck's don't rely on the grave, it's simply beneficial. If someone wants to sideboard out a threat for a Tormod's Crypt and hit my Anger or Squee, fine by me. These decks are to be designed to work without Survival, so they are designed to work without Anger, Genesis and Squee. Losing them isn't all that awful.

4 and 5. Moot points.


Survival will continue to be strong, but it needs to change into more of a combo deck. The old days of tool box are pretty much over. Rofellos along with FTK don't make the cut anymore either. I'm pretty sure you'll be seeing cards printed in the Time Spiral block that will be making it into Survival builds though.

Combo decks are the most-easily disrupted. They require multiple pieces, and in more cases than not, really want Survival. This seems like a weaker option compared to an aggro or aggro-control build, because they can handle different situations better.

Also, Rofellos and FTK? You insane? Rofellos is the best speed boost a Survival decks can get, and FTK is the best removal-for-strength creature you can get. I don't understand how both of these wouldn't be auto-includes, considering a format that is both fast and creature populated.

You're calling Rofellos slow while Triskelion is fast? Rofellos quickly accelerates into anything from the deck. Trike costs 6 fucking mana. If you're using a 6 casting cost creature to be a source or removal, you're retarded, as you should be dead by then. FTK is a 2-for-1 that can come down on turn 3. The fact that it might hit your creature or not hit anything else is completely irrelevant if that is the case. If you have to play FTK and hit your own Bird, then that means there is a cheap 4-power creature about to beat the opponent's face. Also, that same 4-power creature is always going to be a beater, it doesn't get smaller like Trike. Oh, and it kills Werebear and Juton Grunt and lives to tell about it.


Yes, Triskelion is slow, but Rofellos is useless by himself


As for Triskelion and FTK, they both have their uses, but the sole fact that Triskelion can be welded back into play for repeated use for free, makes it a little more valuable.

Lol. Trike costs too much to actually see play against aggro unless it's welded back. That means it requires Goblin Welder to see play, which means it's useless by itself. It requires another card to do something. A card I might point out has a huge target on it's head, one of which aggro decks aren't going to let you keep around.


Where I am going in saying that Trike is better, is that out of most decks that play Survival, the ones that take the traditional approach and play FTK's are not the ones that are making themselves stronger than the field, or even equal. They are making themselves sub-par to the main decks now played.

This suggests that we should all go out and play Welder Survival???? The same deck that has bad combo and control matchups. Good grief. Look at RGSA. It's still doing well and it's a traditional survival deck. Saying something like FTK is sub-par in a deck these days gives me the impression that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about nor do you have any concept of the Legacy metagame. So please, refute these claims with solid evidence if you can.

[Team-Hero]

I play RecSur. I've been playing RecSur for the past 4 years. I would have to say that Survival decks in general are not aggressive enough nor are they defensive enough. Survival loses because it is exactly in the middle of both defensive and aggressive.

Personally my RecSur build right now looks nothing like other Survival builds that I have come across. I do not rely on Survival to win me the game, but it is nice to get it going. The important part is to build a deck not based around Survival, but a deck that functions without Survival but still benefits from it.

If you have any questions about my deck, email me and I can send you the decklist.

[Iranon]

That was a slight overdose of cynicism, but I'm forced to agree to some extent. The reason I didn't even mention Welder Survival in the opening post was that it commits all the sins I was complaining about at once, with greater enthusiasm and less hope for redemption... bad mistake in retrospect.

[Tao]

That was a slight overdose of cynicism,

Sorry for that. It is only really frustrating to see how Survival decks just don't develop. I don't see that decks like ATS, FEB or Welder Survival or other decks that rely only on the Survival can work in a Meta full of Gro, Needles and Wastelands.

But some things are positive: The RG/SA thread is really good, especially now that the Black splash is accepted by many players. The posts by AngryTroll, Vardaman, Parallax and quicksilver are always good to read.

[Finn]

Diablos, it has been more than two years since I posted that initial Welder Survival build. It has developed well past what you may be familiar with, just not on these forums. I can't speak to your knowledge of course. But the last build I had was quite capable of playing non-Survival aggro. Not nearly as much as RGSA of course, but far better than any ATS or other Welder Survival builds I am aware of. Some combo matchups, like Salgame and Solidarity are pretty easy, while IGG and Belcher are just awful. And pure control like Landstill a and monoblue are not too hard either. Early builds were bad on that front, but like I said. It has come a long way. Threshold will imo always keep this deck out of the top tables, but it simply does not lose to aggro. And Threshold isn't unwinnable even against excellent players, just pretty unfavorable...

Also, Rofellos is not so good when you have so many non-forest lands, as Welder Survival tends to. It's pretty common to only have a couple of Forests in play. Plus, there are a lot of times when it makes sense not to crack the fetchlands until after running a titan in and out a few times. I tried Rofellos out a lot, and ultimately had to cut him. These are the sorts of hard decisions that resulted in a more viable aggro build to fight control.

Tormod's Crypt is not an effective answer to this deck. With the amount of Pithing Needle hate, any decent build will have Tin Street Hooligans and the like coming out its ears, and Crypts go down quickly.

Recently, I have included a single Fire Imp coming in from the sideboard to handle goddamned Withered Wretches running rampant. That could just as easily be a Flame Tongue Kavu, but aggro is so not a problem that I don't care. Fire Imps kill Meddling Mage and Withered Wretch. There are so few other creatures this deck cares about that FTK is wasted mana.

Finally, about Goblin Welder being picked off. I have said this so very many times. It does not matter. Goblin Welder is a throwaway card. They almost never last past its initial activation. This is a well-known fact to people who play this deck. The next one is GR away and the opponent just wasted a spell.

EDIT: I almost forgot. I still think of this as a pet deck, however. It is unlikely to be the future of Survival. Survival decks all have a huge problem. They have to be in Green for Survival. They need Black to not lose to faster combo. They need alteast one other color for access to creatures. It's a lot to ask of a deck with no counterspells to manage all that.

[Tacosnape]

First off, Pithing Needle, if you haven't been paying attention, is disappearing fast. Goblins doesn't run it. Combo and Control decks don't run it. Even a lot of the new BW Confidant and Sui-Black variants don't run it. The only deck that seems to be packing it is Blue-based aggro-control, such as Threshold, Fish, Gro, whatever.

Second, Survival decks do need two things that most builds don't have: A way to be awesome without a Survival, and a clock.

So after about 500 builds that annoyed me, I went mono-green.

19 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Chrome Mox

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Eternal Witness
2 Troll Ascetic
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Arashi, The Sky Asunder
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Loaming Shaman

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tsunami
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Loaming Shaman

This is every form of green packed into one. It can run as Madness, with Mongrels dropping into early Arrogant Wurms. It can run as Survival, fetching utility pieces or dropping out armies of Rootwalla/Wurms. Or it can act as a green aggro deck, often dropping turn 2 Troll turn three Jitte.

The deck has played well for me. I run over Goblins, fare well against all control decks, and handle wasteland-packing aggro-control decks like they're nothing. Threshold isn't impossible game 1 and easy post-board, with 4 Crypts and 4 Loaming Shamans (I don't board in Tsunami.) Affinity's a nightmare for me, as is Enchantress or any deck packing loads of powerful artifacts and enchantments. I could pack Seeds of Innocence or Krosan Grip in board, but it isn't worth it to me.

Combo, of course, is the tricky part. Solidarity you can outrace about one out of three on the first game. Gamekeeper Salvagers and Iggy Pop are far tougher to race game one. Post-board, GK Salvagers and Iggy Pop have to face full Crypts and Chalices, and Solidarity gets full Chalice/Tsunami.
(I also board in the Loaming Shamans for less optimal creatures like Squee and Genesis. Keeping people off Flash of Insight/Cabal Ritual/Chromatic Sphere-in-grave is never bad.) Solidarity's possibly slightly in your favor but more likely close to even; the others are slightly against you. Iggy Pop's the toughest of the three.

Here's how I've gone in matches testing on Workstation:

Landstill: 4-1 (9-3 on games)
Threshold: 4-1 (9-4 on games)
Goblins: 4-1 (9-5 on games)
BW Confidant: 4-1 (8-4 on games)
RGBSA: 3-2 (7-6 on games)
Solidarity: 3-2 (6-7 on games)
Faerie Stompy: 2-3 (5-7 on games)
GK Salvagers: 2-3 (7-8 on games)
Iggy Pop: 2-3 (5-7 on games)
Affinity: 1-4 (4-8 on games)

Total: 29-21 (69-57 on games)

Anyway, that's my two cents. Try it out if you like.

[bigredmeanie]

Interesting thread.

I've been playing survival for years, and like many other people had to put it down for a while until the metagame decided how it wanted to be. NOW however and for about the last year Survival is one of the strongest decks in the format. The build I'm playing now fears no deck.

Believe what you want but the following numbers are from about the past year of me playing it.

Deadguy 65%
Gro 85-90% seriously one of the strongest matchups.
Goblins 60% close match but better than a coin flip.
Solidarity 60% have winnable g1 and after board they NEVER win.
Burn 65% not played but doesn't scare me.
Affinity 65% win more often than not.
Humility.dec 65-70%
Blue Skies 40% only bad matchup. if played properly their clock combined with pro red means their fliers get through every time, and I can't stop them quick enough.

These are not really match results, more like game results, match in most cases goes in my favor because there are no overly effective SB cards that will turn the match in their favor.


The only decks that CAN present problems are combo decks that win before turn 4. As we all know those decks have risks and aren't generally considered consisntant or safe enough to play at large tournaments. However I HAVE been able to consistantly beat Iggy, and at 1 event both me and my team mate beat Belcher 2-0.


I believe that Survival is one of the most UNDERRATED cards atm. People just assume that their Needle's and Crypts are enough. That could not be further from the truth and that is exactly where I prefer the masses.

I'm not going to give out my decklist but I will tell you how I came about the list, and after the fine tuning I have not last a tournament where I played the deck in the DFW area since 2005. That includes large and small tournaments. It's won me a foil Pernicious Deed at over 300 in cash. Also plenty of store credit to support some other decks I've been working on.

I started at the end of last year playing RGSA, I knew it had a solid grow and deadguy matchup and there wasn't much combo in my meta. Maybe 1 Solidarity player at an event, so I started there. It did well, but doesn't have the best Goblins matchup, or combo matchup. I wanted to maintain the good matchups while improving the bad matchups, so i started thinking, and remembered from my time with Welder Survival that it had a good goblins matchup in addition to a good combo matchup but lost to control or things with lots of desruption. So I took the best from both decks and cut the worst.

The deck is affectionately called NQRGSA by me and my team-mate who actually helped greately in the refining of the deck. It almost never loses if it gets an early survival, but still wins w/o it most of the time.

I like a few others have CUT Rofellos, but after several other people in my metagame started playing it I started playing 4 Tree of Tales to increase my chances of having an artifact to weld. It's not based on Welder at all, that's just how it abuses Survival, while still being a very aggro oriented deck.

FTK is the shit in the format. It almost single handedly beats deadguy and gro. While not as hot against goblins thats what Trike is for ;)

Tin-Street Hooligan is one of the best cards printed for Survival since Forest.

Also Basking Rootwalla is an auto-include in any good survival deck. It's not that powerful, but it gives surprise blockers and free creatures, and the synergy with Survival is dumb, and it upsets me that it took years of playing Survival before I realized that.


This was longer than I intended.

[Tao]

Deadguy 65%
Gro 85-90% seriously one of the strongest matchups.
Goblins 60% close match but better than a coin flip.
Solidarity 60% have winnable g1 and after board they NEVER win.
Burn 65% not played but doesn't scare me.
Affinity 65% win more often than not.
Humility.dec 65-70%
Blue Skies 40% only bad matchup. if played properly their clock combined with pro red means their fliers get through every time, and I can't stop them quick enough.

Don't be too humble. Every matchup is far better than 3000%

[troopatroop]

Survival is 75% or better against everything. Best deck in the format. Ever.

[T is for TOOL]

Survival
Deadguy............... 65%
Gro...................... 85-90%
Goblins................. 60%
Solidarity.............. 60%
Affinity................. 65%
Humility.dec........... 65-70%
Survival................ 50%

Dirt
Deadguy............... 58%
Gro...................... 83%
Goblins................. 67%
Solidarity.............. 60%
Affinity................. 100%
Humility.dec.......... 100%
Survival................ 67%

According to the data, Survival is the second best deck in the format.

[Complete_Jank]

Believe what you want but the following numbers are from about the past year of me playing it.

Deadguy 65%
Gro 85-90% seriously one of the strongest matchups.
Goblins 60% close match but better than a coin flip.
Solidarity 60% have winnable g1 and after board they NEVER win.
Burn 65% not played but doesn't scare me.
Affinity 65% win more often than not.
Humility.dec 65-70%
Blue Skies 40% only bad matchup. if played properly their clock combined with pro red means their fliers get through every time, and I can't stop them quick enough.

These are not really match results, more like game results, match in most cases goes in my favor because there are no overly effective SB cards that will turn the match in their favor.

I can believe many of these results, as the only bad match-up for my deck is Threshold and Iggy. Belcher unless it wins turn one is easily beaten, and even Iggy is able to be defeated if I know what I am facing. Matter of fact my Solidarity % is above 75%.


The only decks that CAN present problems are combo decks that win before turn 4. As we all know those decks have risks and aren't generally considered consisntant or safe enough to play at large tournaments. However I HAVE been able to consistantly beat Iggy, and at 1 event both me and my team mate beat Belcher 2-0.

These decks are played at large tourneys, and I have had to face them. Yes, they are the bane of Survival.


I believe that Survival is one of the most UNDERRATED cards atm. People just assume that their Needle's and Crypts are enough. That could not be further from the truth and that is exactly where I prefer the masses.

Maybe second most underated card, but I won't really debate it.


I'm not going to give out my decklist but I will tell you how I came about the list, and after the fine tuning I have not last a tournament where I played the deck in the DFW area since 2005. That includes large and small tournaments. It's won me a foil Pernicious Deed at over 300 in cash. Also plenty of store credit to support some other decks I've been working on.

I've learned to just go ahead and post your deck, other wise someone else will take credit for it and it will eventually get posted anyways. It has happened to me, specially with Type one decks. It is also the only real way to back up what you say.


I like a few others have CUT Rofellos, but after several other people in my metagame started playing it I started playing 4 Tree of Tales to increase my chances of having an artifact to weld. It's not based on Welder at all, that's just how it abuses Survival, while still being a very aggro oriented deck.



FTK is the shit in the format. It almost single handedly beats deadguy and gro. While not as hot against goblins thats what Trike is for ;)

Tin-Street Hooligan is one of the best cards printed for Survival since Forest.

Also Basking Rootwalla is an auto-include in any good survival deck. It's not that powerful, but it gives surprise blockers and free creatures, and the synergy with Survival is dumb, and it upsets me that it took years of playing Survival before I realized that.

I have been trying to find room for FTK, but it is difficult.

Tin-Street, I like him, but he needs Survival many times to work.

I also have tried to fit Rootwalla, but I hate cutting other important things for it.



Share your current deck and take the credit, or at least PM me and Finn, and we can maybe discuss improvements on your deck, or ours.



This discussion does show that there are different approaches that make Survival worth playing.

[Iranon]

90% win percentage per game means winning every time you aren't utterly mana screwed, or topdeck nothing but lands the entire game. We're talking about something better than Iggy Pop vs. Rifter preboard. 90% each game means a match percentage of upwards of 97% (and coincidentally, 97% of all statistics are made up on the spot).

If those figures were obtained in rigorous testing against competent opponents, they would spell 'Oops, I just broke Legacy. Quick, have some fun before they ban Survival". Sorry if I'm being arsey about this, but let's throw around percentages only when we can back them up.

(As an afterthought, even if you tested rigorously: Unless you played an utterly ridiculous amount of games, your testing results are bound to be more extreme than the reality. It likely won't matter to anyone but the most hopeless geeks, but raw numbers are always more helpful than percentages).

***

Saying 'my deck beats xxx' without further information isn't too useful by itself since Survival decks are so varied - a monogreen beatdown version with liberal use of Madness and a 4-colour control-oriented build have little in common beyond running Survival and some mana acceleration.
This includes both the main game plan and the hate you can run: for example, against combo, you could have nothing in the main... or you could have 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Force of Will and 4 Meddling Mage. So going into details without at least an overview is almost impossible. This doesn't mean we always need a full decklist - 'Archetype x with y instead of z' should usually suffice.

***

I'm still surprised at the lack of popularity:

Any good Survival build should be superior to Grow unless it's a complete one-trick pony. Regardless which direction you take, something favouring you upwards of 60% should be realistic.

Any aggro build that's leaner than traditional RGSA should give Goblins fits - bigger and better creatures, immune to mana denial, more consistent card advantage. Other builds might want to rethink their defensive creatures a little (walls won't do much against piledriver hordes), but can stay even or even slightly ahead.

Any High Tide Combo can be hated out since you don't really need to do much against the other Decks to Beat. With the right splashes, this isn't a problem anyway.

Apart from those, Survival has always been consider THE deck to stomp random junk with.

[Goblin Snowman]

I want to point out that there is almost never a "90%" win ratio. I mean, even Rifter runs Abeyence or Light in the main wnough to stop Iggy Pop.Rifter doesn't beat Goblins 90% (close though). I do not think that Survival can beat Humility outside of Wish, and if you can squeeze 4 Wishes in your deck along with all to other stuff, I need you to show me the list. I'd like to see it, just for testing sake. Or PM me for a few games, I'd like to see it.

[jazzykat]

I like this last build that is Mono-G. That being said it reminds me of Big O w/o the bazaars. A few questions:

1. If you don't encounter an overwhelming amount of wastelands and even if you do, why not put a lone mountain(and maybe a couple of taigas) in the deck and 4 wooded foothills to power out anger.

2. Why no Rofello's?

3. Why only 1 cradle not 2 or 3

4. Is it possible to have a tutor for survival?

5. Why no Elvish Spirit Guides?

[Complete_Jank]

90% win percentage per game means winning every time you aren't utterly mana screwed, or topdeck nothing but lands the entire game. We're talking about something better than Iggy Pop vs. Rifter preboard. 90% each game means a match percentage of upwards of 97% (and coincidentally, 97% of all statistics are made up on the spot).
...
Saying 'my deck beats xxx' without further information isn't too useful by itself since Survival decks are so varied - a monogreen beatdown version with liberal use of Madness and a 4-colour control-oriented build have little in common beyond running Survival and some mana acceleration.



I can believe many of these results, as the only bad match-up for my deck is Threshold and Iggy. Belcher unless it wins turn one is easily beaten, and even Iggy is able to be defeated if I know what I am facing. Matter of fact my Solidarity % is above 75%.

I did state above 75%, but if you want to go by Tourney results, I am 100% in both Match wins and Game wins against Solidarity with my Survival build. I don't even have to really sideboard to make it much better, I just remove worthless cards.

Also, my Survival build has been posted on these forums, look it up.

[Complete_Jank]

4. Is it possible to have a tutor for survival?

Yes, that is why I run White, it allows for Enlighten Tutor.

[MysticBlue]

This is a deck I've been playing casually, but I think it might be worth throwing it in for discussion anyway.

Basically, nothing makes my inner Timmy/Johnny warmer and fuzzier than "cheating" out a monster on turns 2 or 3, as this deck does, frequently.



FatSur (variant of RecSur and Reanimator and Natural Order-based decks)

--Lands--
4 Swamp
6 Forest
4 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills

--Creatures--
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Rofellos (occasionally provides shitloads of mana, which this deck uses to hardcast fat midgame)
3 Greenseeker (discard outlet, fixes mana at the same time!)
3 Wild Mongrel (discard outlet, decent creature all-round)
1 Wall of Blossoms (tertiary card advantage engine with R. Nightmare)
1 Eternal Witness (tertiary card advantage engine with R. Nightmare, fetches reanimator stuff back from graveyard too, such as Animate Dead that falls off Akroma or Exhume)
1 Loaming Shaman (graveyard hate, comboes with Nezumi Graverobber)
1 Nezumi Graverobber//Nighteyes the Desecrator (tutorable lategame reanimator)
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Spiritmonger (secondary green fat, chosen for cheapness i.e. hardcastability)
1 Spirit of the Night
1 Kaervak the Merciless (primary anti-combo weapon)
1 Garza-Zol (secondary CA engine, fat)
1 Akroma
1 Squee (primary CA engine with SotF, can feed Mongrel/Greenseeker too)

--Spells--
2 Natural Order (secondary put-fat-in-play method + tutor, anti-graveyard hate)
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Recurring Nightmare (reanimator + CA engine)
3 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Dark Ritual


--Sideboard--
2 Natural Order (vs 'yard hate)
1 Sickening Dreams (sweeper + discard, particularly vs fast aggro like goblins)
3 Pernicious Deed (universal sweeper)
2 Krosan Grip (vs Needles, Humility etc etc)
1 Indrik Stomphowler (tutorable Disenchant + fat)
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (combo disruption)
1 Crosis, the Purger (combo disruption)
1 Gaea's Blessing (vs Brain Freeze combo i.e. Solidarity)
3 Cabal Therapy (vs combo)


I've explained most of my card choices. Some of the late game stuff like Nezumi are more for casual multiplayer which lasts longer, but I could see it fitting into long competitive games too, so I've left it in.

As I've said earlier, this list is fun to play (for me), but by no means optimized for competitive play. I can see cards like Nezumi being chucked out in favour of other stuff, particularly since this deck is fat at 62 cards atm.

Some more obscure points - Spiritmonger vs 2nd SSS. I wanted a (semi)hardcastable backup to SSS as a Natural Order target. At 3BG, Spiritmonger can, and does, get hardcast occasionally on the 2nd turn with land+elf+land+ritual. Even if this god draw situation does not occur, it can still be tutored for via SotF and hardcast much more easily than SSS. Besides, it regenerates, which is excellent against aggro/damage based removal.

Greenseeker vs Putrid Imp - I like thinning the deck and fixing mana, but that's just me. Yes, Ritual+Imp+Animate Dead = Turn 1 Akroma, but hey, I'm being nice to my playmates here :tongue: Imp just seems a bit narrow compared to Greenseeker

Play notes: Vs Gobbos: Game 1 dependent on draw. Sometimes you get an Akroma out turn 2, and gg. Sometimes you die turn 3 to god draw before fat lands on the table... Game 2 with sweepers is much better.

Vs Threshold: Only played a few games, so not reliable. I like land+elf+land+ritual+natural order for SSS turn 2. that's a god-draw situation though, so... I imagine with Deed it gets easier. Loaming Shaman + Nezumi Graverobber help here too, though I guess Withered Wretch is probably better than the Graverobber in this situation...

Vs Solidarity: Played a few games again, mostly on MWS (i.e. dodgy). Game 1 is VERY tough. Race to get Kaervak out in time, else basically they go off, you go bye-bye. Game 2 you get a lot more disruption in, and it's a lot more even, perhaps even favourable. Okina-Gang Shinobi vs Silent Specter, the Shinobi can be ninjutsu-ed in 2nd turn with a ritual, which is much more useful than the bigger body of Silent Specter, particularly in this context.


I've only sought a few test games on MWS vs Tier 1 at the moment once I decided to post this deck. I look forward to advice/suggestions for competition refinement from all you Spikes out there.

[bigredmeanie]

I run RG Survival with a small Welder splash. 3 Burning Wish and 3 Umezawa's Jitte. Admitidely the Wish board has been narrowed to 4 cards basically because survival CAN'T beat Humility w/o Wish. I've wanted to cut them for a long time because it often does nothing, but if I were to cut Wish or SB slots for more sorceries it would change matchups that I want to remain strong.


My numbers are not based on actual statistics, they are based on playtesting and tournament experience. I have not lost a Match with this deck in a long time. I honestly do not remember when. A game every now and then sure, but you have to allow for yourself to get mana screwed in one way or another, and sometimes belcher wins before you get a turn. The numbers were also largely based on my confidence in any particular matchup. I believe in the deck and I consider Gro a bye, that's why I gave it such a high percentage.


---EDIT------

To prevent a double post an edit to talk about the above decklist.

WAAAY to many 1 of's. It will be prone to mulligans and won't beat counterspells reliably. If they counter Survival you're stuck until you draw another one, which will also get countered.

I've also never been a fan of Recurring Nightmare. It's expensive, slow, and is easily disrupted. It might be different if you could activate it as an instant, but no.

[Team-Hero]

Share your current deck and take the credit, or at least PM me and Finn, and we can maybe discuss improvements on your deck, or ours.



This discussion does show that there are different approaches that make Survival worth playing.

Ok. I am posting my RecSur deck so the forum can analize it and comment on it. Feel free to give changes and add a new idea or two to it. I have been playing this deck for a very very very long time now and I have some reasons in why some cards are not in it and why some cards are in it.

On that note, Rofellos is not in it because I believe he is too slow and a waste of a space in your deck (even with Anger). If you do get him running, he also turns into a win more card. If your mana base is strong you should not need him.

RecSur
2 Savannah
4 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Gigapede
1 Bone Shredder
4 Wall of Roots
1 Mangara of Corondor (Currently switched in for a Flametongue Kavu)
2 Eternal Witness
3 Recurring Nightmare
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Krosan Grip (Testing in place of Naturalize, works better than Naturalize)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Meddling Mage

Sideboard
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Monk Realist
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Withered Wretch
4 Trickbind (Testing in place of Stifle)
2 Meddling Mage
3 Mana Maze
Lands: 21, Spells: 16, Crt: 23

[MysticBlue]

WAAAY to many 1 of's. It will be prone to mulligans and won't beat counterspells reliably. If they counter Survival you're stuck until you draw another one, which will also get countered.

I've also never been a fan of Recurring Nightmare. It's expensive, slow, and is easily disrupted. It might be different if you could activate it as an instant, but no.

Mulligan frequently, yes. But 1 mulligan isn't the end of the world, and rare is the need for a 2nd mulligan. And there are sufficient methods of CA that it isn't *that* bad. Besides, my deck doesn't depend on survival to run. Yes, survival makes it VERY easy to get fat out, but with 10 discard outlets (incl. SotF) and 6 fatties this deck has a fair reanimator side to it which does not even need to whiff SotF to function. And to avoid graveyard hate, I have the added option of Natural Ordering an elf/BoP/mongrel to bring out a SSS/Spiritmonger.

Aside from fat, all of which are viable in their own right, the only other one of's are silver bullets for specific situations. WoB+Witness form a CA engine with Nightmare for the mid to late game, by which time a SotF should have been active sufficiently to tutor once/twice. Loaming Shaman+Nezumi Graverobber form a reanimator combo, for lategame as well. Rofellos is manaboost, but strictly not necessary, given the other manaboosters around (unless you're hardcasting fat late-game). Squee as a one-of means little, since in this deck he adds to other cards, but has no intrinsic value of his own - SotF can tutor for him, and Greenseeker and Mongrel use him as a backup, since they are more for discarding fat than anything else.

Which is why my inner Johnny loves this deck. And my inner Timmy just loves the fat. :cool:

[bigredmeanie]

@ Mystic Blue I'm trying really hard to be nice, but...

The fact that you run a 62 card deck and 12 1-of's means the deck is inconsistent. You also can't seem to decide which way you want to go. Reanimate or Natural Order. Pick one take out so many of the 1-of's If you ran 4 SSS than you could include 1 U producing land so than on occasion you can cast it when u need to. I'm going to give away a little secret here, deck building is all about consistancy. If your deck is consistent in what it does every time, than it will be greater than the sum of it's parts. If it's not than it will fall to the wayside and become a 'fun pet deck.'

My survival deck has 7 1-of's. 3 of which are Genesis, Anger, Squee.

[Bane of the Living]

This thread is the best place to point out that the Create a New Good Deck winner; a survival variant resembling ATS did nothing to harbor survival's future. I havent even noticed discussion on the deck for months now.

It would be interesting to hear Spat's input.

[Complete_Jank]

FatSur (variant of RecSur and Reanimator and Natural Order-based decks)

--Lands--
4 Swamp
6 Forest
4 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills

--Creatures--
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Rofellos (occasionally provides shitloads of mana, which this deck uses to hardcast fat midgame)
3 Greenseeker (discard outlet, fixes mana at the same time!)
3 Wild Mongrel (discard outlet, decent creature all-round)
1 Wall of Blossoms (tertiary card advantage engine with R. Nightmare)
1 Eternal Witness (tertiary card advantage engine with R. Nightmare, fetches reanimator stuff back from graveyard too, such as Animate Dead that falls off Akroma or Exhume)
1 Loaming Shaman (graveyard hate, comboes with Nezumi Graverobber)
1 Nezumi Graverobber//Nighteyes the Desecrator (tutorable lategame reanimator)
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Spiritmonger (secondary green fat, chosen for cheapness i.e. hardcastability)
1 Spirit of the Night
1 Kaervak the Merciless (primary anti-combo weapon)
1 Garza-Zol (secondary CA engine, fat)
1 Akroma
1 Squee (primary CA engine with SotF, can feed Mongrel/Greenseeker too)

--Spells--
2 Natural Order (secondary put-fat-in-play method + tutor, anti-graveyard hate)
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Recurring Nightmare (reanimator + CA engine)
3 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Dark Ritual


--Sideboard--
2 Natural Order (vs 'yard hate)
1 Sickening Dreams (sweeper + discard, particularly vs fast aggro like goblins)
3 Pernicious Deed (universal sweeper)
2 Krosan Grip (vs Needles, Humility etc etc)
1 Indrik Stomphowler (tutorable Disenchant + fat)
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (combo disruption)
1 Crosis, the Purger (combo disruption)
1 Gaea's Blessing (vs Brain Freeze combo i.e. Solidarity)
3 Cabal Therapy (vs combo)

I really like how this deck works much like a reanimator deck.

I would like to see the deck run Chrome Moxes for more speed, just my opinnion, but it doesn't really needed it, but you could cut the Dark Rituals and try them.

I really think that P. Deed is one great card, but not in your deck. Wouldn't you wand Engineered Plague, specially if you keep the Dark Rituals. It would help the goblin match-up.

Also, I'd cut the Gaea's Blessing for sure. Because of Remand, Solidarity can get around it. Find a way to put Duress in the deck, and Cabal Therapies can be used on yourself for reanimating purposes.

[Complete_Jank]

RecSur
2 Savannah
4 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Gigapede
1 Bone Shredder
4 Wall of Roots
1 Mangara of Corondor (Currently switched in for a Flametongue Kavu)
2 Eternal Witness
3 Recurring Nightmare
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Krosan Grip (Testing in place of Naturalize, works better than Naturalize)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Meddling Mage

Sideboard
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Monk Realist
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Withered Wretch
4 Trickbind (Testing in place of Stifle)
2 Meddling Mage
3 Mana Maze
Lands: 21, Spells: 16, Crt: 23

How do you manage with only 2 mountains and 1 Island in the deck. Also, Scrubland? I think the mana base needs to be worked on.

You also need mana accel. The problem is that Birds are often not reliable enough to be there second turn, and that can be a problem often against the decks that will kill it.

Your deck looks similar to an older ATS "TYPE" build. And that is something many of us that play survival are trying to move away from, because of the inability to compete against most tier 1 decks these days.

[Tacosnape]

I like this last build that is Mono-G. That being said it reminds me of Big O w/o the bazaars. A few questions:

1. If you don't encounter an overwhelming amount of wastelands and even if you do, why not put a lone mountain(and maybe a couple of taigas) in the deck and 4 wooded foothills to power out anger.

2. Why no Rofello's?

3. Why only 1 cradle not 2 or 3

4. Is it possible to have a tutor for survival?

5. Why no Elvish Spirit Guides?

1. Because I don't like the red splash and having a fantastic manabase is why I love this deck. I'm not even sure I like the Gaea's Cradle in my own deck, even though it gets ridiculous with a Rootwalla/Wurm Chain. Colors are easy to splash, but I'm not a fan in this case. Survival needs consistent mana to run, and basic Forests do that very well. Llanowar Elves and Chrome Mox allow for turn one accelerators. Anger isn't worth the slot, and Anger is a weak draw on his own. The only card I run that I can't play is Squee, because, well, he's Squee.

2. Because, er...good question. I don't typically run him in builds that don't run Anger. However, given that he can power out turn three Arashi/Arrogant? I might just cut a Witness or a Troll for him. Good call.

3. Because I would much rather draw 0 Cradles in a game than 2 (I also only own one). Cradle isn't necessary at all for my deck and really only shines with Survival active and in play, which doesn't happen every game. It almost never hurts me to have the one, though. Two isn't unfeasible, per se, it's just a preference.

4. No. The bright side is, it isn't necessary to have Survival at all either. Survival here works almost like the Standstill in Landstill. It's mad card advantage, but you aren't necessarily automatically dead if you don't get it.

5. Because they're a terrible, suboptimal creature in combat (3 for 2/2), with a one-shot mana ability that isn't terribly strong, in a deck that thrives on having permanent mana sources as opposed to temporary ones. Chrome Mox does what's needed for getting the periodical turn 1 Mongrel/Survival.

[MysticBlue]

@ Mystic Blue I'm trying really hard to be nice, but...

The fact that you run a 62 card deck and 12 1-of's means the deck is inconsistent. You also can't seem to decide which way you want to go. Reanimate or Natural Order. Pick one take out so many of the 1-of's If you ran 4 SSS than you could include 1 U producing land so than on occasion you can cast it when u need to. I'm going to give away a little secret here, deck building is all about consistancy. If your deck is consistent in what it does every time, than it will be greater than the sum of it's parts. If it's not than it will fall to the wayside and become a 'fun pet deck.'

My survival deck has 7 1-of's. 3 of which are Genesis, Anger, Squee.

thanks for the input bigredmeanie, and i totally understand where you are coming from. allow me to explain my point of view.

firstly, of the 6 fatties i run, they are all decent in their own right. each has specific strengths and weaknesses, but the overall point is that any one of them can quite readily end games - some are better in specific situations than others, but all are sufficient until better options turn up in the course of a game. hence, they can be considered as "6 copies of 1 card" in terms of counting for consistency.

secondly - the loaming shaman is graveyard hate tech. any more than 1 is overkill MD. i have a soft spot for the Nezumi Graverobber, which i agree probably does not belong in a competition deck. Eternal Witness is important for recurring some stuff which will be inevitably lost/countered, particularly SotF and reanimator spells. WoB is debatable, i agree. squee as a 1-of is not a problem, since the card it really interacts with (SotF) can tutor for it anyway. Rofellos is not strictly necessary, but can set up the mana for hardcasting fat later in the game, hence being a one-of and with the inconsistencies that this implies is a no-issue in this specific case.

and Kaervak and SSS are fairly easy to hardcast with a single BoP. just a sidenote, really. islands aren't necessary to support 1 SSS/Kaervak.

reanimate vs natural order. i agree, going in one direction will provide "consistency". however, reanimate is vulnerable to graveyard hate, and natural order has minimal synergy with the discard effect of SotF, and is expensive to cast. hence, having both is useful. it also makes the deck slightly unpredictable to play against, which is always useful against random stuff like meddling mage and pithing needle. more the mage than the needle, really.

@complete_jank: thanks for the vote of confidence!

This deck originally began life as a reanimator deck, since that was the most Johnny/Timmy deck i could get my hands on. Then i read about survival, and thought that SotF would be an elegant way of reducing the number of slots dedicated to fat in my deck, as well as adding other dimensions to it. Then i read about graveyard hate and natural order decks...

on that note - the thought of using survival in reanimator comes from the commonly expressed opinion that SotF decks should be enhanced by the presence of SotF, but not depend on it. in my case, SotF allows me a discard outlet + tutoring for extra fat + CA, but this deck can function just fine without it, although having SotF makes it run much better.

Sideboard cards are basically stuff i'd like to play but have absolutely no space for MD at the moment - it has undergone next to *zero* testing. Cards that can be considered for the role of "mass sweeper" - Deed, E Plague, Sickening Dreams (which is also another discard outlet). Only testing will tell which fits best. Deeding your own elves and birds (and mongrels, etc) can also be very risky, hence my reluctance to MD them unnecessarily.

because of the somewhat suspect matchup vs Solidarity, i've dedicated a fair amount of anti-combo tech into the sideboard against it. Gaea's Blessing is one of many tricks, which include Kaervak (MD), Crosis, Okiba-Gang Shinobi to back it up. i don't know, honestly. once again, more testing is probably required.

chrome mox and duress are excellent ideas, and were actually MD for a time in this deck's evolution. they got dropped by the wayside as other cards came in and took up the space. mox got replaced by ritual, since the 1 mana boost upfront has implications for the Shinobi and Spiritmonger coming out turn 2. Chrome mox is also card-disadvantage of a very bad sort, given the number of one-of's i have in the deck. in the end, ritual won that battle. besides, between 3 elves, rofellos, 4 BoP and 4 rituals, i have 30 cards which are acceleration of one sort or another - 4 more would be overkill? duress and cabal therapy got dropped for more creatures in the toolbox and the natural order + recurring nightmare engine in the deck.

keep the ideas and suggestions coming. i'll attempt to explain myself as best as i can with regards to card choices...

[MattH]

Admitidely the Wish board has been narrowed to 4 cards basically because survival CAN'T beat Humility w/o Wish.
What nonsense, I solved this problem like a year ago. 1x maindeck Naturalize, 1x Dimir Infiltrator (which also tutors for Survival if you want it to), and isn't awful against goblins (good blocker, and on the play, kills Lackey). It's a slow solution, but you have time against Humility decks.

Or, if you're running Enlightened Tutor as some are, Seal of Cleansing.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Spike Feeder and/or Anger+Squee/Genesis is all ready somewhat effective vs. Humility, assming no great immediate pressure.

[Team-Hero]

How do you manage with only 2 mountains and 1 Island in the deck. Also, Scrubland? I think the mana base needs to be worked on.

You also need mana accel. The problem is that Birds are often not reliable enough to be there second turn, and that can be a problem often against the decks that will kill it.

Your deck looks similar to an older ATS "TYPE" build. And that is something many of us that play survival are trying to move away from, because of the inability to compete against most tier 1 decks these days.

The Scrubland could be changed to an island if you want but I rather have a Tundra in that slot.

For mana excell, I also have the wall of roots; those things are amazing. I've used this deck a lot and although it looks like it's mana base is bad, it really is not; try it out for yourself. It's not ATS because it runs Recurring Nightmare. With Recurring Nightmare you win the game once it gets going (especially with Yosei constantly going to the graveyard and coming back).

[Complete_Jank]

Spike Feeder and/or Anger+Squee/Genesis is all ready somewhat effective vs. Humility, assming no great immediate pressure.

StP is the problem with anyone that would play Humility, Squee or Genesis don't help with that.


The Scrubland could be changed to an island if you want but I rather have a Tundra in that slot.

For mana excell, I also have the wall of roots; those things are amazing. I've used this deck a lot and although it looks like it's mana base is bad, it really is not; try it out for yourself. It's not ATS because it runs Recurring Nightmare. With Recurring Nightmare you win the game once it gets going (especially with Yosei constantly going to the graveyard and coming back).

Wall of Roots isn't really that quick of mana accel, specially since it requires 2 mana to bring it out. It is almost a waste of a turn. Recurring Nightmare is strong, but how quickly do you plan on getting that out? Tier 1 decks will disrupt or practically win before you lock with Yosei.


MysticBlue,
I know about not being able to fit Duress, I ran only Cabal Therapy as well, but I ran Burning Wish with one in the board, and that was enough to disrupt most control or combo decks, specially with all the creatures to sacrifice to it. I also ran Eureka which got arround M. Mages, so that with Burning Wish and all the other things to name it was a problem.

[Team-Hero]

Wall of Roots isn't really that quick of mana accel, specially since it requires 2 mana to bring it out. It is almost a waste of a turn. Recurring Nightmare is strong, but how quickly do you plan on getting that out? Tier 1 decks will disrupt or practically win before you lock with Yosei.

Turn 1: Land, BoP
Turn 2: Land, Wall of roots, Survival. During their turn, use survival by puting another counter on the wall of roots.

Wall of roots can be used one time per turn, so you can actually get 2 green from the wall of roots and still be able to block an attack. Wall of roots gives you excelent tempo against decks like Goblins and Threshold. Keep in mind that you can use the wall of root's ability as soon as they come into play.

On the Yosei Lock, it's not a strategy that I normaly go for. I don't straight tech into putting Yosei to the graveyard and cycle him in and out of the grave yard. I'd much rather get Akroma in ASAP or get the SoFaI up and running on a BoP. The Yosei lock only works when you've hit turn 6 and the opponent is still sitting strong.

[Complete_Jank]

Turn 1: Land, BoP
Turn 2: Land, Wall of roots, Survival. During their turn, use survival by puting another counter on the wall of roots.

Wall of roots can be used one time per turn, so you can actually get 2 green from the wall of roots and still be able to block an attack. Wall of roots gives you excelent tempo against decks like Goblins and Threshold. Keep in mind that you can use the wall of root's ability as soon as they come into play.

On the Yosei Lock, it's not a strategy that I normaly go for. I don't straight tech into putting Yosei to the graveyard and cycle him in and out of the grave yard. I'd much rather get Akroma in ASAP or get the SoFaI up and running on a BoP. The Yosei lock only works when you've hit turn 6 and the opponent is still sitting strong.

Birds turn one and then wall turn two is going to be a rare occaision. Drawing both by themself is not a high %, but the added fact that your bird lasts to the second turn is another added factor that will bring down the %. A turn two wall by itself is week.

Don't try and explain what Wall of Roots does, I full well know what it does, and it isn't mana accel.


Lets look at your senario.
Turn One: Land->Bird
Turn Two: Land->Wall of Roots->Survival
Oponents Turn: Activate Survival.
Turn Three: Land->Activate Survival 4 times. (Four Mana available turn 3)

But with out Birds or if bird dies.
Turn One: Land
Turn Two: Land->Wall of Roots
Turn Three: Land->Survival->Activate Survival 2 times. (Two Mana available turn 3)

With out running Wall of Roots
Turn One: Land
Turn Two: Land->Survival
Turn Three: Land->Activate Survival 3 times. (Three Mana available turn 3)

Wall of Roots is not Mana accel, they are additional mana, but they slow your game and ability to put threats out sooner, because you have to cast them, and they don't yield you what you spent on casting them til next turn. Thus the reason I have chosen not to run them anymore.

[Complete_Jank]

double post.

[iOWN]

But with out Birds or if bird dies.
Turn One: Land
Turn Two: Land->Wall of Roots
Turn Three: Land->Survival->Activate Survival 2 times. (Two Mana available turn 3)


Actually you have two available, but can activate Survival three times. One untapped land, and Wall can activate once your turn, and once their turn. 1+1+1=3. Math FTW.

Wall pays for itself in one and a half turns, then next turn-and-a-half gives you two mana if needed. It is both mana accel and a great blocker.

[Complete_Jank]

Actually you have two available, but can activate Survival three times. One untapped land, and Wall can activate once your turn, and once their turn. 1+1+1=3. Math FTW.

Wall pays for itself in one and a half turns, then next turn-and-a-half gives you two mana if needed. It is both mana accel and a great blocker.

I didn't count the opponents turn on third turn in any of the senarios. This was to show you how much mana you would have by third turn available, to both Survival and cast something.

Observation & Reading Comprehension FTW!!!

[iOWN]

I didn't count the opponents turn on third turn in any of the senarios. This was to show you how much mana you would have by third turn available, to both Survival and cast something.

Observation & Reading Comprehension FTW!!!

That means you're playing down the card to your opinion. Wall of Roots would allow 3 activations by turn three's end.

Also note that in your first example, you have 5 mana available. 3 lands, birds, Wall. You can also activate Survival twice on turn 2.5.

Turn One - Land, Birds (0 Mana Available)
Turn Two - Land, Wall into Survival (One mana on your turn, another on opponent's turn.)
Turn Three - Land (Five mana available, another on your opponent's turn.)

You are saying that Wall is not mana acceleration when it so obviously is. Why does it not qualify when something like BoP does? Wall can produce one to two mana per turn, which obviously is giving you extra mana. Something that allows you to have more mana on a given turn than you would have does equal mana accel.

Simple card comprehension FTW?

[Complete_Jank]

That means you're playing down the card to your opinion. Wall of Roots would allow 3 activations by turn three's end.

Also note that in your first example, you have 5 mana available. 3 lands, birds, Wall. You can also activate Survival twice on turn 2.5.

Turn One - Land, Birds (0 Mana Available)
Turn Two - Land, Wall into Survival (One mana on your turn, another on opponent's turn.)
Turn Three - Land (Five mana available, another on your opponent's turn.)

You are saying that Wall is not mana acceleration when it so obviously is. Why does it not qualify when something like BoP does? Wall can produce one to two mana per turn, which obviously is giving you extra mana. Something that allows you to have more mana on a given turn than you would have does equal mana accel.

Simple card comprehension FTW?

I didn't call Birds of Paradise real mana acceleration either. Do we need to go back to Reading Comprehension FTW?

I classify cards deemed as mana accel to cost less then the mana they return the same turn they are put into play.

Wall of Roots gives you increased Mana over time, and is tempo, not mana accel, it will also stop providing mana too, but that is besides the point.

By the way, your senario is wrong! It should look as follows:
Turn two with bird, wall, and survival will look like this.
Play 2nd Land
Tap 2 Land cast Wall of Roots.
Tap Bird & use Wall of Roots cast Survival.
ZERO mana available.
Pass the turn.
Use Wall of Roots and activate Survival on other players turn.

[Di]

Fucking stop your back-and-forth blabbering. The point of this thread is to innovate the deck, and arguing about an old slot deters from that intent.

Regarding Wall of Roots, I personally cut it from ATS. Cut it a while ago, actually. I will agree with those in favor of Wall of Roots, however. An important function of a survival deck is for slots to be as versatile as possible. This means that each slot needs to serve as many roles as possible. Arguing Wall of Roots is not acceleration is ludicrous. Granted, you point out that it doesn't add that extra mana on your turn for that sole point after a Survival, but it adds it the turn it comes into play, and it also boosts you afterwards for a quicker Tradewind or FTK or whatever the hell you want. Plus, it blocks. In those scenarios, nobody ever addresses the other side of the board. What if there is a Goblin Lackey on the other side, or a Nantuko Shade? That's what turn 2 Wall of Roots is for. Rather than take a lot of unneeded damage, you can play a little early-game defense so that your midgame is a lot stronger.

Personally, I believe that it's more important to have a creature that can be played turn 1 for Goblin Lackey. If Lackey hits, you most likely lose, because it's rather hard to come back from that considering Survival takes a while to get online. That's why I like Tinder Wall. :p It's a 1cc wall that can kill a Piledriver. Plus, turn 2 Tradewind ftw?

[Complete_Jank]

Fucking stop your back-and-forth blabbering. The point of this thread is to innovate the deck, and arguing about an old slot deters from that intent.

Wrath of the Moderator FTW?


I like the thought of running Wall of Roots if Chrome Moxes are run, because they would yield a Turn one drop against Goblins, not to mention a possible 4 mana turn 2 for casting something with out survival.

I also like the thought of tinder wall, just wish it could sacrifice for green mana.

[Di]

If you say anything else with FTW at the end of it in this thread I will shove a baseball bat-sized penis directly through your ass. Now that that's out of the way:

The issue with running Chrome Mox alongside Wall of Roots is that you already run Birds of Paradise too, and then even some builds run Aether Vial. That's way too many 'accelerants' in the deck. Not to say acceleration is bad, but when you run that many the deck's draws become significantly weaker during the mid-to-late game. A Survival deck should really only use 8-10 accelerants so it can maintain a good chance of opening them while not cluttering their midgame topdecks. Basically you would have to choose between the 4 of them, and get to keep 3 in a ratio of something like 4:3:3. Personally I dislike Aether Vial. I had it in ATS for a long time because I loved the way it could cheat stuff and ease mana to cast lots of men to support Tradewind, but I recently cut it (before I was giving out lists). It's honestly just too slow. I found that I hated drawing them after turn 2-3, and even at turn 1, most times I would prefer the mana creature over it because they help supplement Survival, and had better overall synergy with the deck. I don't know if it's the same for your Welder Survival builds, which Aether Vial obviously has a lot more benefits that a regular deck, but It just isn't as good imo as a setup such as 4 BoP, 3 WoR, 3 Chrome Mox. Granted you increase the artifact land count if it isn't up already, that helps bypass the loss of a cheap artifact.

As for the Tinder Wall mana being red, a great majority of the time that is a non-issue because all of the deck's manasources produce green. Annoying if you're tapped out, but it boosts creatures into play, and is nice to cast FTK without having a red mana source.

[Complete_Jank]

If you say anything else with FTW at the end of it in this thread I will shove a baseball bat-sized penis directly through your ass. Now that that's out of the way:

But the question is where you'd ever find such a thing, I know I won't let you use mine.

LOL

I'm sorry, I had to, you just set me up so well.



Anyways, I am currently looking at trying to build something with Survival and Zombie infestation, and use it as another discard outlet.

[Michael Keller]

Necroed for irony.

[Jak]

Necroed for irony.

Awesome.

Now can people stop saying Survival has always been broken?

[Dark Ritual]

LOL I started reading the first post of this then I realized it was posted in '06 when survival was a completely fair card. And people who think survival has always been broken, GO FUCK YOURSELF seriously it has been a broken card for only what 5 months now/whenever Rise of the Eldrazi was printed.

[Vacrix]

Necroed for irony.
Win.

[Grollub]

Survival will continue to be strong, but it needs to change into more of a combo deck.
Pretty spot on.

I don't really understand the "Win" or "LOL" - Survival is only as good as the cards it can find/discard in the context of the metagame, and as thus it has always been a ticking bomb. For instance Survival was plenty broken in T2 when it was introduced, with Rec/Sur being quite possible the strongest deck in the metagame (most certainly was in Tempest block); mind you this was a field that had Oath decks too.

[Gui]

I read the thread, for fun sakes, and we really never know when we are going to learn something...

I like how Tacosnape was probably the first to interact Madness with Survival in mono-G fashion as it's now done with GW, and how he posted a few good results BACK IN 2006 without vengevine, and yet that idea didn't seem to evolve. Anyways, was Taco the author of UG survival madness?

[Grollub]

I read the thread, for fun sakes, and we really never know when we are going to learn something...

I like how Tacosnape was probably the first to interact Madness with Survival in mono-G fashion as it's now done with GW, and how he posted a few good results BACK IN 2006 without vengevine, and yet that idea didn't seem to evolve. Anyways, was Taco the author of UG survival madness?

Oshawa Stompy, or mono-green Survival Madness was an ancient T1 deck by Bebe on TMD from around 2002.

[Gui]

Oshawa Stompy, or mono-green Survival Madness was an ancient T1 deck by Bebe on TMD from around 2002.

Makes sense, the other guy @ the thread said "reminds me of Big O." and I had no clue what it was... Well, even tho, that one is a Legacy Oshawa at least, and could have been good long ago if further tested. Maybe GW Sur can do well without vengevines, or maybe that's the proof that it wasn't able to do well before vengevines. Wonder how much effort Taco had put on that by then.

[Tacosnape]

I read the thread, for fun sakes, and we really never know when we are going to learn something...

I like how Tacosnape was probably the first to interact Madness with Survival in mono-G fashion as it's now done with GW, and how he posted a few good results BACK IN 2006 without vengevine, and yet that idea didn't seem to evolve. Anyways, was Taco the author of UG survival madness?

Points to you for remembering/finding all that.

That said, I wasn't the first to do anything about the modern mono green thing. As far as I know, the Hatfields were the first to start doing the mono-green LED/Survival/Vengevine/Arrogant Wurm/Explodo Baggins thing, then with the Enlightened Tutor splash. I pretty much followed suit and made a few personal customizations, but all of my best/favorite Survival lists are pretty much theirs. I still run straight GW, and I think they now run Necrotic Ooze.

I -DID- have a mono green Survival Madness deck for Legacy LONG ago, before the printing of Tarmogoyf and Hierarch and all the great stuff, which ran Mongrels, Wurms, Rootwallas, Survivals, Chrome Mox, Jittes, Elves, etc. It was a pretty awesome deck back in its time. Steamrolled Goblins, and this was in the era where half the metagame was Goblins. So yes. I've been playing Survival Madness for the duration of Legacy. I don't think this in any way actually affected anybody's modern interpretation of it, though.

And yes, I've been running Survival Madness for aeons before Vengevine, both with Black Green and Blue Green. I've always always always loved the interaction between Survival and Basking Rootwalla. But it was never much more than a tier 2 deck in a skilled pilot's hands and a tier 3 in your average player's hands back then, and it never got any support so I never got any people helping to improve the deck, and eventually I lost interest. Despite my efforts, I still don't really think I should get any credit in the development of the archetype, as one of a thousand people could have come up with the deck once Vengevine came out. Vengevine's really the centerpiece of the deck.

[Iranon]

I've been tinkering with Survival in Legacy before it was called Legacy... reading that ancient post again made me feel like a pet died :(

I still think that there was too little between 'don't need to take Survival seriously' and 'it's broken!' to warrant a ban, but with the power level of creatures in recent years and the preferences for cheaty antics I can understand it from a different angle: I wouldn't want to design each new creature with a commercially unimportant format in mind.