[Discussion] Can Solidarity Beat Angel's Grace?

[TheBirdMan]

With the release of time spiral I wonder if solidarity will be a viable deck anymore. Angel's Grace combined with one gaea's blessing wins u the game/match since the AG is a split second you can't counter or put it on the stack, it may as well read solidarity loses. Granted you could stifle the blessing but what happens when they run 4. Can solidarity get 4 stifles off?
Let me know.

[clavio]

They can stroke of genius you enough so that you have no cards/very little cards left. Then you lose when you have to draw and can't. I highly doubt that AG will make solidarity unviable.

[iOWN]

What are you talking about? Stifle? Solidarity beats Blessing because it can simply Remand the original Brain Freeze and/or Wish for a lethal Stroke of Genius.

Edit -- Angel's Grace is still a perfectly good anti-combo card for white, but it just isn't enough to hurt Solidarity's viability. It can maybe win you the game if they had went off with lethal damage on the stack, but other than that will just stall since you lose with no cards to draw.

[TheBirdMan]

Well you see, as soon as they go brain freeze and your blessings go on the stack. you then go angel's grace. They mill and make you draw all they want. you dont die, your blessings resolve and you take your next turn with a full deck and solidarity cant go off again. thats all I am saying.

[jamest]

Sure, 4 Angel's Grace plus 4 Gaea's Blessing is a big obstacle to High Tide, but that's a really narrow (read: bad) answer, since those cards are subpar(AG) to useless(GB) against everything else. Imagine if High Tide wanted to be that narrow. They could just run 4 Stifles and 4 Twincast in the board. Or they could splash black and run Cabal Therapy. Bye bye Angel's Grace.

[Rastadon]

Who says it has to be 4x of each? 2x Blessing and 4x Grace could do the trick. 2 blessings to get milled, and 4 Grace to make sure you have them while they're comboing off. It could work in a g/w aggro deck.

[emidln]

It seems that all you need are more Blessings than Solidarity's wished for Stifles. Played perfectly, Solidarity would have 3 Stifles, but that would require Wish -> Stifle, RFG Stifle with the Flashback card, Wish -> Stifle, RFG Stifle with the Flameback card, Wish -> Stifle leaving them exactly 1 Wish (if they even run 4) to find Stroke of Genius. With 4x Blessings and 4x Angel's Grace, finding 1 Grace would be enough to beat Solidarity.

Also, Solidarity has somewhere between 0 and 4 Twincasts in the board for the mirror, which it could also use to Stifle blessing Triggers. This might be more practical than the wishing/flashback plan.

However, what is to stop Solidarity from focusing on generating mana, make about 50 or so, and Stroke you for your deck? Then you fail to draw and lose on your turn, sooner or later. That would be the best workaround to Blessing + Angel's Grace, and much easier than getting a perfect ordering with Stifles and Wishes.

[jamest]

Who says it has to be 4x of each? 2x Blessing and 4x Grace could do the trick. 2 blessings to get milled, and 4 Grace to make sure you have them while they're comboing off.
Like I said, if High Tide players really want to beat Angel's Grace, they can. There are a lot of options, especially if you consider a second color.


It could work in a g/w aggro deck.
G/W Aggro? Does that beat any deck? I think High Tide would be the least of your problems.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Unless you apply a lot of pressure (meaning heavy disruption or a turn 3-4 kill), Solidarity is very capable of beating Angel's Grace, even assuming that they don't know you have it.

As long as Solidarity goes off "fully," a good pilot will plan for Blessing, which means they will make sure they have access to Stroke before going for a lethal Freeze. However, once you start resolving Brain Freeze copies, you will almost certainly flip over an Angel's Grace, which will tell the Solidarity player not to Stroke you unless they think you don't have a Grace in hand.

Instead, the Solidarity player will Stroke themselves for 10-20 cards, and then pass the turn. This restock will allow them to go off again, after forcing the Grace out of your hand with a Turnabout. They can recur the Stroke with Flash of Insight+Cunning Wish.

This sequence sounds a lot harder to do than it actually is, since Solidarity has access to practically every card in their deck once they have gone off, and Angel's Grace does absolutely nothing to stop the combo before they go for the kill. Angel's Grace becomes more than obnoxious if you draw multiples, or if the Solidarity player waits until the last minute to go off, but in other situations it is worse than an actual disruption spell.

Basically, Angel's Grace will probably cause most smart Solidarity players to go off a little earlier against white decks, since playing through an Angel's Grace takes a couple turns. It will also make them dig a little more for Peek, which lets the Solidarity player know whether to play around Grace or not. The most radical effect Angel's Grace could possibly have is to make the Spring Tide plan of "eot, Turnabout you, untap, win on my turn" more popular among Reset players.

EDIT:

However, what is to stop Solidarity from focusing on generating mana, make about 50 or so, and Stroke you for your deck? Then you fail to draw and lose on your turn, sooner or later. That would be the best workaround to Blessing + Angel's Grace, and much easier than getting a perfect ordering with Stifles and Wishes.
The problem with this plan is that, as the Angel's Grace player, you get to draw the 3 remaining Graces and all of your Blessings. After using a Grace to survive your draw step, you can hardcast Blessings to maintain your library (and recur the Graces) indefinitely. Solidarity would have to counter every Blessing and survive a turn for each Grace, something that should be nearly impossible against an opponent who just drew every card in their deck.

Turnabout is a much better solution.

[midnightAce]

Well you see, as soon as they go brain freeze and your blessings go on the stack. you then go angel's grace. They mill and make you draw all they want. you dont die, your blessings resolve and you take your next turn with a full deck and solidarity cant go off again. thats all I am saying.

There is still a problem with that. After the Grace resolves, as long as Solidarity can deal with that 1 or 2 Blessing trigger, the whole deck still gets decked and you die on your next upkeep. Also, notice that after they finish combo and has milled you, they take their turn first, so there is a lot of chances for them to kill you there.

Like Ob Freely said, all the Grace does is make Solidarity player to try to combo a bit ealier and not combo with lethal damage on the stack, that's all.

[Tacosnape]

Edit -- Angel's Grace is still a perfectly good anti-combo card for white.

No, it isn't. There isn't a combo deck in Legacy that it stops. Trade them.

OB Freely is right, and Angel's Grace is more or less absolute crap.

Let's assume for a minute that Angel's Grace was worth playing against Solidarity. The following points have been made with that assumption.

1. It's at its best when combined with Gaea's Blessing.

2. The combination of the two would be at their best in Green-White Aggro.

3. It could be done with as few as 4x Angel's Grace and 2x Gaea's Blessing.

Now you're dedicating six slots of your sideboard to these cards in the hopes of stopping Solidarity with whatever random Green-White Aggro deck you're running. This is not an inherently bad plan if your cards have broader usage. So let's see what they're good against.

A. Gaea's Blessing. Good against Solidarity. Moderately useful against Life From The Loam-based decks. ...Can, um, put three cards back against Threshold. Is an overpriced cantrip against everything else.

B. Angel's Grace. Good against Solidarity. Might be distantly useful against Affinity if they Fling/Berserk something. Absolute crap against everything else. (Note that Angel's Grace does not hurt any Tendrils-Based deck or Gamekeeper Salvagers, as Tendrils and Orzhov Guildmage both kill from Life Loss and can put you at 0 Life, causing you to lose at the beginning of your next turn.)

So for the most part, you're putting these six slots in to help against Solidarity only.

As for playing Solidarity against this, Obfuscate is completely correct about the means of victory. All Solidarity must do is restock its hand upon Angel's Grace resolving and draw mana out with Turnabouts. It's important to note that against G/W Aggro, lethal damage should never be on the stack. Giant Growth/Berserk can be countered should the combo be foiled for a turn by Angel's Grace, and if the attack would be for lethal damage without additional damage being provided from instants in the opponent's hand, the combo should be attempted prior to combat, leaving the option to use Turnabout to tap the opponent's creatures.

So in essence, you're committing six slots to defeat a deck that you won't necessarily defeat because of this. You're better off packing Chalice of the Void, True Believer, City of Solitude, or Armageddon. These at least help against other decks as well.

[legacyplayer0]

Has anyone else noticed how bad Meditate is when playing against Angel's Grace? I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but if you have to meditate a couple times to go off, and Angel's Grace is casted, you're probably going to die before your next turn.

[Eldariel]

Actually, Meditate is fine. It allows you to avoid having to go to your own turn, and keep yourself in steady to go off again. As long as you've left some Resets and High Tides, you can just Freeze them, draw cards, pass the turn, then go off again in their next draw-step. Once you've gone off, you don't really need your turn. Also, Peek obviously lets you prepare and play around Angel's Grace. It simply means you have to go off twice. This all assuming you don't have an access to Stifle.

But yea, even with Grace, Solidarity can probably stack its library with Flash of Insight AND leave all lands untapped, making going off again EXTREMELY easy.

[scrumdogg]

By itself, no, Angel's Grace will not beat Solidarity. Combined solely with Blessing, it will steal some games, and make life harder for unprepared/newer/inexperienced Solidarity players. However, you would be remiss not running Jotun Grunt in a deck like this anyway. Once you have that triumvirate as a base, you are in much better shape. The preceding discussion also presumes that you are GW (or Gw or gW....) when you might very well be RGw or UWg or any number of interesting color/card combinations. Cards don't stop decks, decks stop decks & without specific discussion of decks, this is a fascinating but ultimately useless exercise conducted in a vacuum.

[legacyplayer0]

Actually, Meditate is fine. It allows you to avoid having to go to your own turn, and keep yourself in steady to go off again. As long as you've left some Resets and High Tides, you can just Freeze them, draw cards, pass the turn, then go off again in their next draw-step. Once you've gone off, you don't really need your turn. Also, Peek obviously lets you prepare and play around Angel's Grace. It simply means you have to go off twice. This all assuming you don't have an access to Stifle.

But yea, even with Grace, Solidarity can probably stack its library with Flash of Insight AND leave all lands untapped, making going off again EXTREMELY easy.

If you have extra high tides, resets/turnabout's, and draw spells, why would you not be able to kill your opponent on the first try?

[quicksilver]

If you have extra high tides, resets/turnabout's, and draw spells, why would you not be able to kill your opponent on the first try?

Umm because of angel's grace, that's the whole thing we are talking about here.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

If you have extra high tides, resets/turnabout's, and draw spells, why would you not be able to kill your opponent on the first try?



I should smack you upside the head. Not to mention, remembe Phil, it is actually 10:26 P.M. right now, not 11:26! :tongue:

[legacyplayer0]

I admit it. I've never actually read the card.

[laststepdown]

Angel's Grace-target solidarity player can't win in response to alpha striking lethal damage.

oh, the oracle text?

W
instant
split second
You can't lose the game this turn and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead.

it's also decent if you're racing goblins-but that's not the topic at hand.

[Eldariel]

Angel's Grace-target solidarity player can't win in response to alpha striking lethal damage.

oh, the oracle text?

W
instant
split second
You can't lose the game this turn and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead.

it's also decent if you're racing goblins-but that's not the topic at hand.

Quite poor. They just Fanatic you in your upkeep.

[Meatwarz]

Not really a good card against solidarity. It can only help if he is trying to go off resp to lethal damage, othervise you'll just lose the next turn..

[Lego]

The problem with Angel's Grace that I realized a couple nights ago is that it's often going to be played by complete idiots. People often just don't know how to play against Solidarity. I cast High Tide on about turn 6, he responded with Angel's Grace. I Remanded my High Tide and went off the next turn, Stroking him for the win.

[TheBirdMan]

Not really a good card against solidarity. It can only help if he is trying to go off resp to lethal damage, othervise you'll just lose the next turn..


Ok, the discussion is going well but please realize there are blessings involved so you start the next turn with a full deck once the grace resolves as well as the blessings.

[dahcmai]

All things considered, Angels grace requires you to play White. White isn't all that widespread and most people aren't going to weaken up their manabase to support it when it's already a close match for most decks fighting Solidarity as it is.

Think about it this way.

Angel stompy - might use it.
Gobbos - no reason to, it's already fast.
Iggy pop - no reason to, just about as fast also
Landstill - has counters already, good enough
Deadguy - has discard and mana disruption, more than likely won't bother.
Thresh - has counters and a nasty clock

That's really not really worth Solidarity worrying about. Sure some people might throw it in, but it's not worth a drastic change to the deck since most people aren't going to bother using it and Solidarity can go around it anyway.

[Eldariel]

White Goblins might actually use it. They can usually kill at about the point Solidarity could go off, having the uncounterable means to postpone the 'going off' by one turn sure makes it a lot easier to go lethal. Then again, it's way too narrow, red blasts are generally far better, as well as Sirocco, Chalice and Pillar, as they have other uses.

Landstill's MU is horrible, but the problem is, Grace isn't going to solve anything as their problem is putting a clock on Solidarity. Grace just postpones the inevitable. Meddling Mage or such is again much better SB-card.

[Brushwagg]

I think the better options are Orim's Chant or Abeyance in response to a un-tap or draw effect. But you also need to have muliples of them. But at least if you win the stack war you should get at least 1 extra turn and not have to worry about the having to cast Blessings to stay alive.

[TheBirdMan]

I think the better options are Orim's Chant or Abeyance in response to a un-tap or draw effect. But you also need to have muliples of them. But at least if you win the stack war you should get at least 1 extra turn and not have to worry about the having to cast Blessings to stay alive.

Or you could just use angels grace to get the other turn if thats what you really wanted plus blessings resolve for free you arent casting them :-/

[Meatwarz]

Ok, the discussion is going well but please realize there are blessings involved so you start the next turn with a full deck once the grace resolves as well as the blessings.
Well, after grace resolved, Solidarity played can still Stifle the blessing or in resp go of more.

[Lego]

Iggy pop - no reason to, they can't win anyway

Fixed.


Well, after grace resolved, Solidarity played can still Stifle the blessing or in resp go of more.

The solidarity player can't "go off more" in response to the Blessing trigger like they normally could, because the way out of that without letting Blessing resolve is a Stroke. After Angel's Grace, Stroke just puts a bunch of cards in their hand (probably giving them more Angel's Graces) and then Blessing will put their graveyard back in their library, so they won't lose.

[Bahamuth]

This discussion is really really useless. No1 will ever play Angel's Grance, since it's a really bad answer to combo for most decks, simply because there are better options.

If Angels Grace would ever become a problem to Solidarity, they'd probably put 4 crypts in the board.......

[TheBirdMan]

Well, I played the match up today and the turnabout their land during their upkeep works and then you just go off during their draw step after they draw so they cant play another land to cast grace. So I guess I answered my own question :-P.

[Eldariel]

Well, I played the match up today and the turnabout their land during their upkeep works and then you just go off during their draw step after they draw so they cant play another land to cast grace. So I guess I answered my own question :-P.

They kinda can just float mana from their upkeep to their draw though. Much rather play Turnabout in their main after they've played a land if that's what you want to do.

[TheBirdMan]

First of all, you cant float mana from step to step. I guess you could do it during their main it doesnt effect it that much but idk why you would wait and allow them to play the card they drew, it may help them.

[Eldariel]

First of all, you cant float mana from step to step.

Yes you can. You can't float mana from phase to phase. From comprehensive rules:

3. Turn Structure

300. General

300.1. A turn consists of five phases, in this order: beginning, precombat main, combat, postcombat main, and end. Each of these phases takes place every turn, even if nothing happens during the phase. The beginning, combat, and end phases are further broken down into steps, which proceed in order.

300.2. A phase or step ends when the stack is empty and all players pass in succession. No game events can occur between turns, phases, or steps. Simply having the stack become empty doesn't cause the phase or step to end; all players have to pass with the stack empty. Because of this, each player gets a chance to add new things to the stack before the current phase or step ends.

300.3. When a phase ends (but not a step), any unused mana left in a player's mana pool is lost. That player loses 1 life for each one mana lost this way. This is called mana burn. Mana burn is loss of life, not damage, so it can't be prevented or altered by effects that affect damage. This game action doesn't use the stack. (See rule 406, "Mana Abilities.")

[DeathwingZERO]

Keep in mind that's the only part of an entire turn that can be used to float mana into another step. If they have nothing to do after the draw, they burn as soon as the Main Phase 1 starts.

[Raider Bob]

How About, Solidarity "go's off" decks you ha leathal draw on the stack you angels grace and you brainstorm to put 2 cards back in your deck? All in all Angels Grace is a small issue at best and not really worth its salt.