[Deck] Mono Black Rat Control

[Jankwolf]

Ok ok ok ok...I know that rats may be a foggy idea buuuutttttt, i have had really good results with it against DTB...So please dont call me stupid, at least read the thread and critisize later...

Deck list:
Lands:
4 Wasteland
14 swamps
2 Swarmyard

Artifacts:
4 Aether Vile

Instants:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Edict
3 SKeletal Scrying

Sorceries:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

Creatures:
4 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Chittering Rats
4 Skull Collector
4 Nezumi Ronin
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star

Sideboard:
3 Encroach
3 Darkblast
2 Engineered Plague
2 Virtue's Ruin
2 Infest
3 Ostracize

Card Choices
Nezumi Shortfang: This guy is Amazeing He is a Discard outlet everyturn, he draws out counters and burn for the more nessecary creatures and he turns into the rack with a body.

Chittering Rats/ Skull Collector: The Skull collector bounces the time walk rat everyturn creating a lock so your opponent cannot draw anymore cards for the rest of the game...Aether Vile comes in handy with this little combo...

Nezumi Ronin: Well hes good at clean up and well...the picture looks way cool.

Kokusho: This guy is bad ass late game...He is a must counter or a must burn...This guy will turn the game around in a big hurry...

The rest of the cards should be self explanitory....

Matchups:
Gobos: Owns...Litleraly owns face...Wasteland+Duress+Hymn+Rats= g.g

Slivers: Well its a tough matchup, Game one its almost a bye, Game two its tough with Mages comin in...But not unbeatable...Wasteland REALLY messes with them...

Threshold: Tough matchup, Nezumi Ronin Deals With freakin Wear bear.
Skull collector Deals with the sorry excuse for a rat(also known as mongoose).
The game plan here boys and girls is to make them discard their hand and then make them sack creatures...Then lock it down with the time walk rat...

Solidairty:Wouldnt know...Not really afraid of it, very few people can accualy pilot the deck Without any mistakes...And besides if you look at me across the table, you are bound to make play mistakes(Since im so goddamn beautiful)

Enjoy!

[Anarky87]

I think perhaps this should be posted in the N&D before the Open forum. This forum is for decks that have already established themselves in an open field.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Wow...... is this serious?

[Jankwolf]

Yes it is serious, but its posted in the wrong forum...it belongs in N&D...not Open...Sorry

[Cavius The Great]

Why on earth aren't you running Ravenous Rats? :confused:

[Jankwolf]

I thought about it...and it sounds like a good idea...Is a good idea..the only problem is he doesnt have a body...I'll test it out though...thx for the idea

[Pinder]

Slivers: Well its a tough matchup, Game one its almost a bye, Game two its tough with Mages comin in...But not unbeatable...Wasteland REALLY messes with them...

I appreciate the plug and all, but we're not really a DTB...yet. Also, you've played a grand total of 1 match against it. Calm down.

As to everyone's naysaying, it's not as bad as it looks on paper. I would honestly run either more than one or no Kokusho at all, but whatever. And Ravenous Rats would probably be alright, but it would take up a lot of space (I'm assuming you'd be running more than 4).

[Jankwolf]

Pinder...In my opinion slivers is a deck to beat...Thats the only reason i got excited over it...Kokusho is being dropped...Me and Ookami Are thinking about a red splash...utilizeing blood moon and a small amount of burn as more removal...
What i didnt mention was against slivers i was in top deck mode all three games...My luck combined with your play mistakes and my mind games...i think thats the only reason i won...Your deck is a real contender...

Moving on though...The landstill mach up is extremely good...seriously its almost a by...not kidding...
But any thoughts or ideas on splashing red and messing with the creature base?

[Maverick676]

Skeletal scrying is a good card, but wouldn't something like dark confidant or night's whisper fit your curve a little better?



Matchups:
Gobos: Owns...Litleraly owns face...Wasteland+Duress+Hymn+Rats= g.g

WTF do these cards do against gobs?

Also one kokoshu seems a little random and likely to be dead most of the time anyway. It should probably be another skeletal scrying or other draw spell.

The red splash might be a good idea, but I wouldn't do much more than add 4 bloodstained mires and a moutain or two for blood moon; Maybe lightning bolt too.


And Ravenous Rats would probably be alright, but it would take up a lot of space (I'm assuming you'd be running more than 4).

Wouldn't that be cheating? unless of course your talking about relentless rats.

[Jankwolf]

Maverick...Wasteland Deals with ports...Hymn gets rid of stupid creatures...duress gets rid of the vile...and useing the rats abilities they will have too much disruption to get any sort of a tempo going...My sideboard makes my options better in game two...But skeletol scrying needs to go...nights whisper does seem better and kokusho is out...And dont pay any attention to pinders remark about rats, I will be putting in 4 Ravenous Rats and the mana base is going to support two lake of the dead...just to speed things up in a time of need...

[Phantom]

Maverick...Wasteland Deals with ports...Hymn gets rid of stupid creatures...duress gets rid of the vile...and useing the rats abilities they will have too much disruption to get any sort of a tempo going

I'm sorry, but none of these are good cards vs. Goblins (Hymn is the best and it's only ok) and your creatures are terrible against them. 8 of them die to Fanatic or Sharpshooter, 4 of them die to a small Gemplam or a single SGC pop, and the other four get bounced if you don't have another creature out (I understand that they are part of the lock, but you're only running 16 creatures and they are all fragile). Most decks are built to handle this many or more creatures that are more stout.

I do like the little rat combo you have (you ever consider adding Bone Shredder for Removal?), but I think you need to surround it with better cards. Nezumi Ronin needs to go ASAP, and you need a splash for removal (Edict needs to go). I'm a tad torn on whether or not Nezumi Shortfang is Legacy worthy. I tested him in Deadguy, and he just sucked.

I also agree with the booting of Skeletal Scrying, although I love the card. Confidant has some nice synergy with Vial (Vial it in at EOT and you'll usually get your card back).

Good luck with the deck!

[Jankwolf]

I'm sorry, but none of these are good cards vs. Goblins (Hymn is the best and it's only ok) and your creatures are terrible against them. 8 of them die to Fanatic or Sharpshooter, 4 of them die to a small Gemplam or a single SGC pop, and the other four get bounced if you don't have another creature out (I understand that they are part of the lock, but you're only running 16 creatures and they are all fragile). Most decks are built to handle this many or more creatures that are more stout.

I do like the little rat combo you have (you ever consider adding Bone Shredder for Removal?), but I think you need to surround it with better cards. Nezumi Ronin needs to go ASAP, and you need a splash for removal (Edict needs to go). I'm a tad torn on whether or not Nezumi Shortfang is Legacy worthy. I tested him in Deadguy, and he just sucked.

I also agree with the booting of Skeletal Scrying, although I love the card. Confidant has some nice synergy with Vial (Vial it in at EOT and you'll usually get your card back).

Good luck with the deck!

The thing is ive played gobs with it before and didnt have a problem...he only got out two creatues delt me 7 points of damage and didnt play a creature after i got rid of those two...I duressed hymned wastelanded and beat him with chittering and a flipped nezumi....its hard to explain...build it...swap out scrying for bob...swap out nesumi ronin and put ravenous in and take out diabolic edict and run devour in shadow...and you will see the results...

[rsaunder]

That's not a typical goblins game. I suggest you retest it, for your deck's sake.

[Moczoc]

Is there any reason besides Swarmyard that makes you include so many rats?

Take a look at this: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4459

[Volt]

That's not a typical goblins game. I suggest you retest it, for your deck's sake.

Ditto. Play-test at least 20 games against a competent opponent before drawing any conclusions about a matchup. Anything can happen in any given game or match. Even 10 games can yield skewed results. After 20 games, though, you'll start to have a pretty good idea of how things shake out.

[Jankwolf]

Ditto. Play-test at least 20 games against a competent opponent before drawing any conclusions about a matchup. Anything can happen in any given game or match. Even 10 games can yield skewed results. After 20 games, though, you'll start to have a pretty good idea of how things shake out.

Thx Volt...ill keep that in mind...

[Cait_Sith]

Note that you may generally ignore that rule for a hate-deck. Odds are you'll crush your hate focus and be trounced by outsiders. Vigorous testing almost never killed anyone.

[Complete_Jank]

Kokusho: This guy is bad ass late game...He is a must counter or a must burn...This guy will turn the game around in a big hurry..

Swords to Plowshares works wonders on this guy, as does bounce.


Matchups:
Gobos: Owns...Litleraly owns face...Wasteland+Duress+Hymn+Rats= g.g

Wasteland is only good against ports, and the off chance they draw one of their dual lands and have no fetch or basic land.

Duress only hits 4 cards in the deck, of which probably will either be played first if they go first, or be played the moment they draw it.

Hymn, ok they get rid of 2 cards then play ring leader for 2 or 3 on average. They have 4 and you have 4, so goblins gets the advantage.

Rats, they have SGC, Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Sharpshooter, and Gempalm Incinerator.

This all spells LOSS specially since you don't even have 4 Plagues sideboard, and what if someone brings them in against you?


Solidairty:Wouldnt know...Not really afraid of it, very few people can accualy pilot the deck Without any mistakes...And besides if you look at me across the table, you are bound to make play mistakes(Since im so goddamn beautiful)


I think you can beat Solidarity because of the hand disruption, but it is probably not better than 55% in your favor.

[Cait_Sith]

Ok Wolfy, turn koku into... something alot better. Koko puffs is still rockin in Legacy, but he is by no means the GG he was in Pre Rotation T2. You have the ratlord already, right? Try to include a bit of spot removal or something.

[Jankwolf]

Yes i am new to play testing...I rely on luck 99% of the time...The reason for posting this was to get constructive critisism...but it seems that people are lacking common sence(hence the name of the forum) Or maybe just maybe they are RETARDED. I understand bashing the newbie, hey im cool with it but, I posted this hopeing like hell someone would take it seriously and give some advice...Thx...

[Complete_Jank]

I am trying to figure somethings out about the deck before I say which way to change it.

I am pointing out somethings that I think should be looked at and improved upon, however at this time a lack of info on the deck such as accurate play testing results kind of holds me back from saying what the actual deck needs, so I am limited in saying what cards should go in.

I was wondering why you don't have 4 Engineered Plagues.

[Cait_Sith]

Personally I would trade the Vials for Maindeck Cabal Therapies/Stupors/Blackmails. I don't really see Vials adding too much compared to a way to squish combo in general. Infests would also work since you lack removal.

[The Rack]

Is the deck tribal rats or just MBC in neato janky form? If it's the latter I strongly suggest Dark Confidant. What A Beast!! He helps with the engine and keeps the mana comin' in for the ratsies! If it was the first then go with Marrow Knawer! What a cool card. Good ability and he would fit in wth the theme very nicely. They might be worth considering. I think I'm going to put my old Rat list on here. Maybe later...

[Complete_Jank]

Accurate play testing results take 10's of hours to compile for the top 5 match-ups, and I'm sorry that I don't have the time to spend on play testing your particular deck. It is rare that we take a deck off the forums to be play tested, unless we want to test our decks against it, and prepare for a possible match-up.

We have many decks of our own that we continue to try and improve and test.

If I had unlimited time in day and could travel through time, I'd be a much nicer person, but fact is I am not. Sorry.


If you can provide us with more accurate info on how match-ups play out, I and many others can help you much more. We are hear to help.

[Cait_Sith]

I really am leaning on maindeck Infests, and turning Kokopuffs into Marrow-Gnawer, but I am stumped after that for the moment.

[Pinder]

Wouldn't that be cheating? unless of course your talking about relentless rats.

:laugh: I always get those confused. I was really wondering why Cavius made that suggestion. Ravenous is definitely > Relentless.

And Jankwolf, you could always, you know, playest with Mav and I. Since we live in the same city and all.

[T is for TOOL]

Keep it on topic people.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Here are some good rat cards off the top of my head:

Swarm of Rats, Zodiac Rats, Nezumi Cutthroat, also...um...

Well, giving them all fear for 2 mana with Cover of Darkness is pretty decent. Not bad for an alpha strike.

[Cavius The Great]

Has Bad Moon been considered at all?

[Blair Phoenix]

Ok ok ok ok...I know that rats may be a foggy idea buuuutttttt, i have had really good results with it against DTB...So please dont call me stupid, at least read the thread and critisize later...

Deck list:
Lands:
4 Wasteland
14 swamps
2 Swarmyard

Artifacts:
4 Aether Vile

Instants:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Edict
3 SKeletal Scrying

Sorceries:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

Creatures:
4 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Chittering Rats
4 Skull Collector
4 Nezumi Ronin
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star

Sideboard:
3 Encroach
3 Darkblast
2 Engineered Plague
2 Virtue's Ruin
2 Infest
3 Ostracize

Card Choices
Nezumi Shortfang: This guy is Amazeing He is a Discard outlet everyturn, he draws out counters and burn for the more nessecary creatures and he turns into the rack with a body.

Chittering Rats/ Skull Collector: The Skull collector bounces the time walk rat everyturn creating a lock so your opponent cannot draw anymore cards for the rest of the game...Aether Vile comes in handy with this little combo...

Nezumi Ronin: Well hes good at clean up and well...the picture looks way cool.

Kokusho: This guy is bad ass late game...He is a must counter or a must burn...This guy will turn the game around in a big hurry...

The rest of the cards should be self explanitory....

Matchups:
Gobos: Owns...Litleraly owns face...Wasteland+Duress+Hymn+Rats= g.g

Slivers: Well its a tough matchup, Game one its almost a bye, Game two its tough with Mages comin in...But not unbeatable...Wasteland REALLY messes with them...

Threshold: Tough matchup, Nezumi Ronin Deals With freakin Wear bear.
Skull collector Deals with the sorry excuse for a rat(also known as mongoose).
The game plan here boys and girls is to make them discard their hand and then make them sack creatures...Then lock it down with the time walk rat...

Solidairty:Wouldnt know...Not really afraid of it, very few people can accualy pilot the deck Without any mistakes...And besides if you look at me across the table, you are bound to make play mistakes(Since im so goddamn beautiful)

Enjoy!


As far as I can see there isn't anything that makes this deck Tribal, so why the hell are you running Nezumi Ronin? It's a horrible card, and black has MUCH better 3 drops available. Chittering Rats + Skull Collector is a nice little combo, but as it didn't break Standard in two I doubt it will do anything in Legacy, Not to mention it's a silly 2 card combo, which never does all that well, especially if you depend on it.

I doubt your testing with Goblins. You aren't running any maindeck kill cards, Meaning Gobbos will simply overrun you. You say Wasteland + Duress + Hymn hurts them, but so many decks run that settup and still get overrun. They simply play more creatures than you, and discard= Nothing when they resolve a Ringleader to fill back up their hand.

Slivers isn't considered tier yet, and including it in your matchups doesn't really say anything

Thresh isn't going to just let you dis their whole hand. They DO run counter, and cantrip effects, not to mention, they run enough removal to really hurt your deck. Also, a resolved Mystic Enforcer eats you.

[Cait_Sith]

If you need some help I have 4 decks you can test against. Reading other peoples posts I agree that your clock could use some gentle lovin'. Remeber that your clock is like a woman; slapping it only results in a match loss.

[Jankwolf]

Deck changes.
Lands:
4 Wasteland
14 swamps
2 Swarmyard

Artifacts:
4 Aether Vile

Enchantments:
2 Engineered plague

Instants:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Edict
3 SKeletal Scrying
3 Darkblast

Sorceries:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

Creatures:
4 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Chittering Rats
4 Skull Collector



Ill be coming out with the sideboard here in a bit...

[Maveric78f]

Are you all crazy ?

This deck has absolutely no chance aginst most of the decks in the format. Only combo is hurt by the number of discard.

The deck plays 4*vials for only 12 creatures, 4 of them can't stay in play alone, 4 other ones should not be bounced neither. Please test a little your decks before posting them.

Moczoc has already made a link towards my deck :
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4459

and you can believe me, the build is far better. The main reason is that I don't play all my strategy on the hand disruption. It happens often but it's not automatic. The second reason is that I've been working this deck for 2 months now and that I can state that it has good answers to almost everything in the format. The success of the deck is also due to the fact that the mechanisms of the synergy between vial + harpy is difficult to get from the first games, even for descent players. I don't want to pollute this thread but the last build is so bad that I could not prevent me from making myself some advertising.

[Jankwolf]

As far as I can see there isn't anything that makes this deck Tribal, so why the hell are you running Nezumi Ronin? It's a horrible card, and black has MUCH better 3 drops available. Chittering Rats + Skull Collector is a nice little combo, but as it didn't break Standard in two I doubt it will do anything in Legacy, Not to mention it's a silly 2 card combo, which never does all that well, especially if you depend on it.

I doubt your testing with Goblins. You aren't running any maindeck kill cards, Meaning Gobbos will simply overrun you. You say Wasteland + Duress + Hymn hurts them, but so many decks run that settup and still get overrun. They simply play more creatures than you, and discard= Nothing when they resolve a Ringleader to fill back up their hand.

Slivers isn't considered tier yet, and including it in your matchups doesn't really say anything

Thresh isn't going to just let you dis their whole hand. They DO run counter, and cantrip effects, not to mention, they run enough removal to really hurt your deck. Also, a resolved Mystic Enforcer eats you.

Try reading the updated decklist...and there is going to be another update soon

[Jankwolf]

Are you all crazy ?

This deck has absolutely no chance aginst most of the decks in the format. Only combo is hurt by the number of discard.

The deck plays 4*vials for only 12 creatures, 4 of them can't stay in play alone, 4 other ones should not be bounced neither. Please test a little your decks before posting them.

Moczoc has already made a link towards my deck :
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4459

and you can believe me, the build is far better. The main reason is that I don't play all my strategy on the hand disruption. It happens often but it's not automatic. The second reason is that I've been working this deck for 2 months now and that I can state that it has good answers to almost everything in the format. The success of the deck is also due to the fact that the mechanisms of the synergy between vial + harpy is difficult to get from the first games, even for descent players. I don't want to pollute this thread but the last build is so bad that I could not prevent me from making myself some advertising.

The vial is there to play chittering and the newly added Bone shredder without paying a many cost to make them get rid of a card right after their draw step....But again, I will be updating the deck list again that will make it more stream-line...so hold back the critisism for a short while plz...after i playtest this new list on friday...i will post the deck list accordingly...thank you

[Jankwolf]

Are you all crazy ?

This deck has absolutely no chance aginst most of the decks in the format. Only combo is hurt by the number of discard.

The deck plays 4*vials for only 12 creatures, 4 of them can't stay in play alone, 4 other ones should not be bounced neither. Please test a little your decks before posting them.

Moczoc has already made a link towards my deck :
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4459

and you can believe me, the build is far better. The main reason is that I don't play all my strategy on the hand disruption. It happens often but it's not automatic. The second reason is that I've been working this deck for 2 months now and that I can state that it has good answers to almost everything in the format. The success of the deck is also due to the fact that the mechanisms of the synergy between vial + harpy is difficult to get from the first games, even for descent players. I don't want to pollute this thread but the last build is so bad that I could not prevent me from making myself some advertising.

The vial is there to play chittering and the newly added Bone shredder without paying a many cost to make them get rid of a card right after their draw step....But again, I will be updating the deck list again that will make it more stream-line...so hold back the critisism for a short while plz...after i playtest this new list on friday...i will post the deck list accordingly...thank you

[Mirrislegend]

I think this deck needs to be taken in a different direction, if it is to be even remotely taken seriously. Consider de-emphasizing discard, in order to return the focus to the creatures. It may make the deck seem more like a casual deck, but it is more likely to provide the power that Jankwolf claims is there. I just whipped up something that is by no means perfect, but it should get my point across:


// Lands
14 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 Skullsnatcher
3 Swarm of Rats
3 Ravenous Rats
2 Nezumi Shortfang--Stabwhisker the Odious
2 Nezumi Graverobber--Nighteyes the Desecrator
4 Gnat Miser
3 Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dirge of Dread
4 Bad Moon
4 Duress
4 AEther Vial

4x MD Bad Moon and Jitte make up for the lack of size in most of the creatures. 3x Dark Confidant is proof that this deck is just a vague idea. Anyways, Cover of Night was suggested: I chose Dirge of Dread, cuz it does the same thing, except in the early game it cycles and gets a Jitte-carrier through at the same time. The rest is pretty basic. Anyways, this is closer to a viable rat deck. Although why it would be played over Red Death or an oldschool, shadow-based black weenie deck, I have no clue

[xsockmonkeyx]

// Lands
14 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 Skullsnatcher
3 Swarm of Rats
3 Ravenous Rats
2 Nezumi Shortfang--Stabwhisker the Odious
2 Nezumi Graverobber--Nighteyes the Desecrator
4 Gnat Miser
3 Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dirge of Dread
4 Bad Moon
4 Duress
4 AEther Vial



Sewer Rats :) They eat Mongooses and Lackeys @ 1 mana.

[Maveric78f]

you know what makes the strength of my harpy deck ? It's harpy : unkillable creature that bounces, indeed protects all my creatures in instant.

for exemple I attack with harpy plus a ravenous rat :
the opponent blocks with let's say one skyhunter and a meddling mage. I put the damage in pile and in resp, I pay 1 life, get back harpy to hand and play it through vial to bounce my rat. Then I play my rat, the opponent discard a new card and I have 2 blockers.

If you want to make a similar deck, you absolutely need harpy because it's the reason why the deck is working. Some other blue cards are awesome, that's why it's absolutely needed that the deck is UB. White is a choice of myself just to struggle more easily against combo and gobs.

If you just want to make a monoblack rat tribal deck, I don't believe in your chance getting it competitive. All the rats have an ass of 1. Sharpshooter or engineeres plague love that. I know bad moon is in the list, but you have nothing to find it contrary to most of decks...

[Maverick676]

you know what makes the strength of my harpy deck ? It's harpy : unkillable creature that bounces, indeed protects all my creatures in instant.

for exemple I attack with harpy plus a ravenous rat :
the opponent blocks with let's say one skyhunter and a meddling mage. I put the damage in pile and in resp, I pay 1 life, get back harpy to hand and play it through vial to bounce my rat. Then I play my rat, the opponent discard a new card and I have 2 blockers.

If you want to make a similar deck, you absolutely need harpy because it's the reason why the deck is working. Some other blue cards are awesome, that's why it's absolutely needed that the deck is UB. White is a choice of myself just to struggle more easily against combo and gobs.

If you just want to make a monoblack rat tribal deck, I don't believe in your chance getting it competitive. All the rats have an ass of 1. Sharpshooter or engineeres plague love that. I know bad moon is in the list, but you have nothing to find it contrary to most of decks...

First of all the point of this deck is hand disruption, and a hard lock with chittering rats, vial, and skull collector. While combat tricks like the one you described might be cute, they hardly win games.

Also, the decks sticks to rats because it runs swarmyard. You might want to actually look at the cards jankwolf runs, All except nezumi shortfang have an ass bigger than one.


Moving on:

With swarmyard in the deck I think crypt rats should be an auto include. Reusable sweep seems like it would pwn just about every creature deck in the format.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Moving on:

With swarmyard in the deck I think crypt rats should be an auto include. Reusable sweep seems like it would pwn just about every creature deck in the format.

I had the same idea the other day of Crypt Rat + Swarmyard but I havent tested it yet. Also, Swarmyard + Jitte seems pretty decent. Heres a list I threw together:

Yay, Tribal Rats!!! v.1.0

4 Dark Ritual
14 Swamps
4 Polluted Delta
4 Swarmyard

4 Crypt Rats
4 Swarm of Rats
1 Nezumi Cutthroat
3 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Sewer Rats

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Darkblast
3 Diabolic Edict

4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Cover of Darkness

[Kokusho17]

you ever considered ostracize against gobos for removing early lackeys or fanatics?

[Jankwolf]

Here is the new list...Try not to bash this one without reading it this time...

Land:
3 Wasteland
2 Swarmyard
14 Swamp

Spells:
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Dark Ritual
4 Night's Whisper
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Funeral Charm
2 Spinning Darkness

Creatures:
2 Plague SLiver
4 Chittering Rats
4 Skull Collector
3 Nezumi Shortfang

Articfacts:
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
3 Wrench Mind
1 Funeral Charm
2 Infest
1 Spinning Darkness
3 Bone Shredder
3 Engineered Plague
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Wasteland


Lets go over the card choices one more time...(Hopefully, This time you guys will read the cards BEFORE you comment.)

Swarmyard: Regenerates rats...Enough said.

Nightswhisper: I put these in to help dig through the deck a little bit.

Funeral Charm: Additional discard...plus it boosts late creatures a bit.

Spinning Darkness: Free creature kill plus a little life gain...Not the best card but, it helps out late game.

Now for the creatures...(please read what the cards do BEFORE you comment)

Plague SLiver: He is the much needed late game fat. He is a better Juzam, Plus in the off chance i end up playing against a virsion Meathooks...HE IS JUST SO GODDAMN GOOD!

Chittering Rats: He is a Timewalk it a 2/2 body...Plus he works well with Skull Collector.

Skull Collector: He is a 3/3 with regeneration and he bounces Chittering Rats
over and over and over again creating a lock that doesnt allow the opponent
to draw any addition cards.

Aether Vile: This helps out with the Skull Collector+Chittering Rats combo so mana doesnt have to be spent to play him...This makes both of the uncounterable.

Nezumi Shortfang: Discard plus he becomes the rack with a 3/3 body.

Sideboard Choices:
Wrench Mind: This helps out against deck with little or no creatures. Such as combo and control.

Bone Shredder: Against mild creature decks he is a reacurring Terror over and over again...

Every other card choice should be self explanitory.

Now for the matchups:
Control: Landstill, Mono Blue Control, All counter based decks i seem to have really good games against.

Aggro: Infest and plague pretty much good game.

Combo: Do i really have to address this?

Enjoy the new and updated list!

[kicks_422]

Infest+Plague is nowhere near GG against aggro... Goblins will just Vial in a Ringleader EOT then attack for bajillion the following turn, and other Aggro such as Affinity and Zoo aren't affected by those cards (Kird Ape, Watchwolf, Ravager, Enforcer >> Infest or Plague)

[Maveric78f]

Jankwolf, don't you get what I told you ?

I know that vials is here to make instant speed chittering rats, but it's absolutelly useless before... Vials in a deck with only 13 creatures and a little finders (finders = drawers, diggers and tutors) are dead cards most of the time.

The skull collector also is an heresy. It's here only for an interaction with another one. It's completely useless before that... (you can't even keep it into play...)

Don't tell that plague sliver is better than Juzam... With 2 plague sliver in play, you have to pay 4 life each turn, and don't say that sliver is played in legacy... I know that you play only 2 of them, but the weak probability that you want to play both is bigger than the very weak probability that you face a sliver deck.

Your deck is awful... Really...

Dont think that combo is a bye for you, they will often be faster than your discard strategy (life, IGGy pop), or they can walk through discard (IGGy pop, Ichorid, Aluren).

Don't think that you can handle aggro with 2 infest in side, or with plague... You are a bye for aggro.

[Jankwolf]

Infest+Plague is nowhere near GG against aggro... Goblins will just Vial in a Ringleader EOT then attack for bajillion the following turn, and other Aggro such as Affinity and Zoo aren't affected by those cards (Kird Ape, Watchwolf, Ravager, Enforcer >> Infest or Plague)

Ok for those of you who lack common sence...Plague+infest...on top of the discard and hand disruption pretty much shuts down aggro without a draw engine...I dont know where you people come up with this i really dont...AND WHO PLAYS AFFINITY OR ZOO ANYMORE? Anyone??And i didnt mention goblins at all in my thread, i said if you cant remember, "mild aggro".
Which by in no means implys said goblins...

[Blair Phoenix]

Ok for those of you who lack common sence...Plague+infest...on top of the discard and hand disruption pretty much shuts down aggro without a draw engine...I dont know where you people come up with this i really dont...AND WHO PLAYS AFFINITY OR ZOO ANYMORE? Anyone??And i didnt mention goblins at all in my thread, i said if you cant remember, "mild aggro".
Which by in no means implys said goblins...
Affinity has made top 8 in several recent legacy tournaments, so I'd say a good few.

[Maverick676]

Your deck is awful... Really...
Jankwolf, don't you get what I told you ?I can not imagine why he wouldn't listen to your suggestions.


I know that vials is here to make instant speed chittering rats, but it's absolutelly useless before... Vials in a deck with only 13 creatures and a little finders (finders = drawers, diggers and tutors) are dead cards most of the time.Normally vial would be dead with a deck running 13 creatures. But when you replay the same creature every turn it becomes more useful even with such a low creature count.


Don't tell that plague sliver is better than Juzam... With 2 plague sliver in play, you have to pay 4 life each turn, and don't say that sliver is played in legacy... I know that you play only 2 of them, but the weak probability that you want to play both is bigger than the very weak probability that you face a sliver deck.Actually slivers are played in legacy, there's a whole thread dedicated to it in the open legacy forum. You should check it out we have decklists and everything.:laugh:

Considering someone is always playing meathooks.dec at jankwolf's weekly tournament plague sliver is a better choice. Also most people don't have juzam djinns and aren't stupid enough to pay a fortune for them, so plague is a great alternative. Even if you have more than one out it likely doesn't matter, having 10 power on the board is a two turn clock for your opponent.

[Ookami]

You guys do see what he's running, right? hand disruption (Chittering Rats + Skull Collector) plus creature kill (Diabolict Edict, Funeral Charm-if they have a toughness of 1-and Spinning Darkness) plus discard (Hymn, Wrench mind, Charm, Shortfang) plus MORE CREATURE KILL (Infest, Plague, Boneshredder) actually DOES say GG to aggro decks. Not to mention that the Collector can regenerate, and Swarmyard regens his Chittering and Shortfang.

[Goblin Snowman]

You guys do see what he's running, right? hand disruption (Chittering Rats + Skull Collector) plus creature kill (Diabolict Edict, Funeral Charm-if they have a toughness of 1-and Spinning Darkness) plus discard (Hymn, Wrench mind, Charm, Shortfang) plus MORE CREATURE KILL (Infest, Plague, Boneshredder) actually DOES say GG to aggro decks. Not to mention that the Collector can regenerate, and Swarmyard regens his Chittering and Shortfang.

Do you play competitive MTG?

Randomly listing cards that do not win the game against Goblins or something, and claiming they do, seems (Yeah, this is poorly worded) foolish. Ok, if I run Decree of Justice I should win, since it's effect is larger that, say Exalted Angel. This is not true, since Mana exists. Most of your ways of dealing with Aggro and discard are very slow.
His deck has little or no way to beat a turn one Lackey (2 Funeral Charms). If said Lackey connects, he has no way of dealing with SCG (pre-board). Later in the game, Goblins is more than capable of refilling their hand with a combination of Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Ringleader, and Goblin Matrol. Goblins packs more creature hate that is less situational (Incinerator, Sharpshooter, SCG, and possible Swords/Sparksmith) yet they do not always beat aggro.

[Jankwolf]

Do you play competitive MTG?

Randomly listing cards that do not win the game against Goblins or something, and claiming they do, seems (Yeah, this is poorly worded) foolish. Ok, if I run Decree of Justice I should win, since it's effect is larger that, say Exalted Angel. This is not true, since Mana exists. Most of your ways of dealing with Aggro and discard are very slow.
His deck has little or no way to beat a turn one Lackey (2 Funeral Charms). If said Lackey connects, he has no way of dealing with SCG (pre-board). Later in the game, Goblins is more than capable of refilling their hand with a combination of Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Ringleader, and Goblin Matrol. Goblins packs more creature hate that is less situational (Incinerator, Sharpshooter, SCG, and possible Swords/Sparksmith) yet they do not always beat aggro.


ok...Then explain why i am 2-0 vs goblins...let me explain latest results against goblins
Goblins:
first game...i lose plain and simple...I have an answer to goblin lackey...its called funeral charm...which i am now running 4 of...i am now running 4 Plague
And 3 infest...this on top of discard turns things in my favor...Against goblins i end up siding out duress...Games to and three are tough but not unbeatable

[Jankwolf]

Do you play competitive MTG?

Randomly listing cards that do not win the game against Goblins or something, and claiming they do, seems (Yeah, this is poorly worded) foolish. Ok, if I run Decree of Justice I should win, since it's effect is larger that, say Exalted Angel. This is not true, since Mana exists. Most of your ways of dealing with Aggro and discard are very slow.
His deck has little or no way to beat a turn one Lackey (2 Funeral Charms). If said Lackey connects, he has no way of dealing with SCG (pre-board). Later in the game, Goblins is more than capable of refilling their hand with a combination of Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Ringleader, and Goblin Matrol. Goblins packs more creature hate that is less situational (Incinerator, Sharpshooter, SCG, and possible Swords/Sparksmith) yet they do not always beat aggro.


ok...Then explain why i am 2-0 vs goblins...let me explain latest results against goblins
Goblins:
first game...i lose plain and simple...I have an answer to goblin lackey...its called funeral charm...which i am now running 4 of...i am now running 4 Plague
And 3 infest...this on top of discard turns things in my favor...Against goblins i end up siding out duress...Games to and three are tough but not unbeatable

[Jankwolf]

Ok more one little green men(goblins)...
The and updated list is running 4 Funeral Charm and for Plague




Like i said previous game one is a bye for the gobos player...its that simple...

Game two, Side out duress for plague, then side out bone shredder for infests and the last Funeral charm...At this point keep the board clear is better than hand disruption(except in early game).

Here is how the latest match went on friday...
Game one: He plays some dudes...then procedes to smash my face...

Game two:He drops lackey then passes the turn over...Lackey dies to funeral charm...And he loses two cards via hymn...
Next turn he plays vial....thats cool...i drop plague on my following turn...
He then procedes to drop war chief and i drop a second plague...He plays goblin king(i think thats what its called) and i hit up infest and its game over, via skull collector...

Game three: more of the same, he loses to early game hand screw...Oh, and plague and infest...My record against gobs is 2-0..thanks for the support guys!

[Goblin Snowman]

Test like 30-40 games against Goblins, Monored, White, and Green. If you get 2x Plagues, then of course you win. But there are going to de times when it doesn't matter, like when they cast Ringleader and negate most of your discard. Or when they Tutor up Incinerator and are able to Disenchant Plague due to a slow clock. Deadguy has trouble with Goblins, and they more disruption, Cursed Scroll, and more removal overall.

[troopatroop]

2 Matches lets alot of luck come into play. 20 to 30 does to. Play the matchup 100 times and tell me how it goes. You won't be ahead against a good player. I promise.

[Shriekmaw]

2 Matches lets alot of luck come into play. 20 to 30 does to. Play the matchup 100 times and tell me how it goes. You won't be ahead against a good player. I promise.


I do agree that more than 2 matches must be played to determine the win-loss ratio against a particular deck, but I fell that 20-30 matches is more than enough to determine the win-loss ratio.

Why do you feel that you always have to bring luck into your comments Troopatroop when you don't agree with the results of a particular matchup?

Oh, yeah; I forgot. Your a bad player.

[Jankwolf]

Ys i know i need to play test more against gobos...but the new list includes 4 crypt rats and 4 swarm yards...From what has been suggested on an earlier part of the thread this would smash creature based decks hands down...So im testing
it out on friday and i will happily post the results for those who suggested it to begin with.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Hey JW, have you condidered Blood Clock for your deck? It does the same thing for you as Skull Collecter and offers your opponant somewhat of a disadvantage.

[Jankwolf]

Yay...Main deck Crypt rats was a success...As well as the addition of two swarmyards...Well...i won against goblins again...The Crypt rats that reoccured was a great idea to those of you who suggested it...
But with small minor tweaking...Where could we take this if we added pox, small pox, and the rack?? I like the rat engine that im running and would like to include these cards...