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tivadar
11-06-2006, 10:23 AM
Deck List and Description

As an opening, let me say first that I hope this will be my LAST angel stompy variant decklist to post, as I've had a lot of success with it and it's just plain fun to play. The idea is partially borrowed from Pirates, though I didn't know it at the time. I gave it the name puritans as it likes to sweep the board of most permanents while bringing a holy wrath of swinging down upon your opponent's head. The fact that Pirates was apparently a predecessor just makes the name even better imho.

Lands: 22

2 Island
4 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Chrome Mox
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures: 18

4 Exalted Angel
4 Meddling Mage
4 Silver Knight
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Court Hussar
2 Serendib Efreet

Removal/Card Selection: 16

2 Parallax Tide
2 Parallax Wave
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

Equipment: 4

2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte


You'll notice the decrease in the amount of equipment in this deck from standard AS. This is primarily due to the fact that that equipment is in AS primarily to gain card advantage on the board (though it helps with additional damage too), and I've essentially added 4 additional cards that do that. In addition, the traditional first turn creature drop from AS has been replaced with card selection and removal in this variant.


Individual Card Discussion


Island, Plains, Tundra - Pretty much the standard, 6 basics for wasteland resilience. I've had games where I've had no need to play a non-basic non-fetch, as mana is rarely a problem for a deck with 2 friend colors and brainstorm.

Flooded Strand, Windswept Heath - 6 fetches for getting the colors you want. Tried with 8, but it was actually too much thinning and was unneeded in general. Also works well with brainstorm.

Ancient Tomb - Double Lands. In a sense, they provide card advantage as well, as you get 2 mana for the price of 1 land. Having these with Exalted, Wave, Tide, and Equipment really makes for broken accelleration.

Flagstones of Trokair - Essentially a non-fetchable basic plain. Sure, your opponent can hit it with waste and slow you down by one mana for a turn, but this also gives you card advantage. I recently switched to this from 2 additional basic plains and its really helped against land destruction strategies, which could occassionally give me problems.

Chrome Mox - Allows for broken turn one plays, and the card disadvantage can be quickly recouped with Hussar. Also can be shuffled away with Brainstorm in the late game.

Exalted Angel - The standard AS beater, where it gets its name. Not so critical to get it swinging by turn 4 anymore, but it happens often enough and the pressure it can put on an opponent really helps.

Silver Knight - Tech against burn and goblins. Also a nice first-striker that is well costed and immune to red removal.

Jotun Grunt - Recently added in place of 2 soltari priest. This card is just amazing. The matchup where it shines is obviously threshold, but it's also good against solidarity, burn, confidant, and anything running fetches. You can support it by yourself for at least couple of turns as well. Also, because of all the other 2 casting cost creatures, you're not forced to play it early.

Meddling Mage - Obviously good against the combo matchup, but also good against control. Can shut down your opponents removal or broken plays. All this on a well-costed 2/2 body.

Court Hussar - I tried this a while back with Chrome Mox and have never gone back. He's a reasonable creature for 3 mana, but even better, replaces himself with a card. He can fetch the Parallax you need, or the Equipment, and then carry that equipment for the win. Also decent synergy with Brainstorm.

Serendib Efreet - He's evasive, beats for 3, resists most burn, and only costs 3. He's amazing in this deck.

Stifle - May seem like an odd choice, but think about the current meta. He stifles a first turn fetch by thresh. Is at least relevant against solidarity and hoses iggy. Against goblins, he prevents card advantage from Siegegang, Ringleader, and Matron. Finally, by itself, probably wouldn't have been included. However, once you add in both Parallax Wave and Tide, Stifle just gets disgusting.

Parallax Tide - This just hoses Thresh if it resolves. If not, it at least drew the counter from their hand. Essentially guarantees you around 3 turns of uncounterable spells. Combined with Stifle, this is major land destruction that loam can't get back. Great against control and most combo.

Parallax Wave - Stall against aggro, or mass removal when combined with stifle. Also useful to protect your creatures against removal, though I've found it more useful against aggro decks.

Brainstorm - Pretty much standard card selection, especially when combined with 6 fetches.

Swords to Plowshares - The best creature removal in the game.

Sword of Fire and Ice, Umezawa's Jitte - Standard equipment for this deck. Only 2 because it's heavily creature dependant, and you don't want multiple equipment in opening.


Matchups

All matchups were tested using standard decklists on MWS. I tested against myself, so feel free to criticize, but I do know how to play most of the decks in the format. In addition, with meddling mage if an obvious choice of a card to name was not clear, then a die was rolled between the top choices. I tested playing 20 games on play and then 20 games on draw.

White Threshold - On Play: 70% On Draw: 70%

Angel Stompy tends to go 50/50 with this deck, but we've got maindeck hate in the form of stifle on fetches, jotun grunt, and parallax tide. In addition, Court Hussar is a must counter if they don't want you getting more cards. The way Threshold wins is primarly to race you with Nimble Mongoose and keep your creatures off the table. This is not a good gameplan for them.

Mono Red Goblins - On Play: 70% On Draw: 55%

In addition to all the bonuses mono-white Angel Stompy has against Goblins, we add stifle. However, the fact that this deck is a hair slower than Angel Stompy, and can't play a turn one 2/2 pulls this match down just a bit. It's still highly favorable. By the way, never stifle lackey, stifle the ability of the creature he drops...

Solidarity - On Play: 50% On Draw: 35%

This is still a very tough matchup and Mage only goes so far. Because of the slightly slower clock, Solidarity can go off without high tide a lot of the times on 6 lands. Chrome mox is a huge boost, and stifle on their fetches, not on brain freeze, can also win games.

Fairy Stompy - On Play: 55% On Draw: 45%

This is a control game for you. If you can get meddling out naming chalice before they can hit chalice at 1, you pretty much win. If not, you need parallax wave to stall their creatures. Obviously Sword of Fire and Ice goes a long way to win here, but you need a creature to equip it to, which means they can't be getting their jitte counters in the meantime.


Sideboard Options

Here are some good options for sideboard cards. Im not going to list my exact sideboard as, first, I don't want other people using my exact list :-P, second, my sideboard is constantly changing based on the meta.

Force of Will - Obviously amazing in the Iggy Pop matchup, but can also be useful against other quick combo, goblins, burn, and is at least not completely dead against solidarity. It allows you to go full-out aggro against many decks as well.

Glowrider - Great against control decks and combo not based on creatures (solidarity and iggy). Doesn't completely shut these decks down, however, as it's easy enough to bounce.

In the Eye of Chaos - Shuts down solidarity completely if it resolves. Reasonably good against iggy and also does a number on burn.

Armageddon - Amazing against control and good against combo that requires lands to go off. Also amazing synergy with Flagstones of Trokair as well as Chrome Mox.

Tormod's Crypt - Wrecks graveyard strategies such as threshold, reanimator, survival, welder, and anything running crucible or loam. Good against a large portion of the current meta.

Pithing Needle - Great against manlands and opponents equipment. It's sort of a permanent stifle. However, with four stifle maindeck to begin with, the matches it wins its often a win more in.

Engineered Explosives - Gets rid of chalice handily, does a number on affinity, can take out pithings and mongooses. Good for handling small artifacts/enchatments and more general than disenchant.

Hurkyl's Recall - Absolutely kills affinity, can get rid of chalices and pithings for long enough for you to win. Oftentimes exchangeable with explosives.


Tournament Summary


Name Reg Record T-8 Record Place People
Source Tournament VII ]4-0-1 0-1-0 5 40
Dragon's Lair 10/01/06 2-2-0 9 22
The Mana Clash 1 4-1-0 7 60
Dragon's Lair 11/19/06 3-0-1 3-0-0 1 22
Dragon's Lair 12/17/06 2-1-1 5 16
Dragon's Lair 01/07/07 3-1-0 2-0-1 1.5 22

Cavius The Great
11-06-2006, 11:27 AM
Gratz on your success Eric. This new list seems highly tuned. What prize did you get for winning 4th?

MasterBlaster
11-06-2006, 12:18 PM
You list Flagstones of Trokair in your card explanations but its not in your decklist.

Other than that it looks like a really solid list.

Eldariel
11-06-2006, 12:42 PM
Wouldn't you want at least 2 more Waves on the SB? The card is incredible against any aggro or control and easily your MVP, and the reason Angel Stompy is such a pain for any aggro to play against.

tivadar
11-06-2006, 01:50 PM
The straighup aggro match is not actually that bad. The only two aggro matches I'd even worry about extra waves for would be Fairy Stompy and Gobbo. Against control, I'd sooner board 2 parallax tides/geddons in.

Against Fairy Stompy, Wave is a house. The issue is G2 + G3 they ARE going to board in pithing needle. I've found Force of Will and Pariah to be strictly better against FS than +2 Wave would be.

Against Gobbo, the game is good already. Once again, they may board pithing too. Even if they don't, Pariah is nearly as good as wave against them if you get it on a pro-red dude. If they don't splash white or board anarchy, pariah is pretty much an auto-win. If they splash white, this isn't quite as true, but pariah still hurts them quite a bit and is a mana cheaper.

Actually, the one change I'd think of making would be to take out meddling or a 2cc in favor of something that hates solidarity even more (perhaps even at the cost of hurting me a bit at this point), just because that deck is still giving me trouble. Or perhaps removing efreet for grunt (though that's another 2cc to be chaliced in some matchups..., and also doesn't have the evasion).

Cavius The Great
11-06-2006, 05:19 PM
Thanx for ignoring me, Eric. You still havent told me what you won for 4th place. PM me if you feel more comfortable. :rolleyes:

Angel of Despair
11-06-2006, 06:02 PM
We let him borrow the flagstones for TMC. He probably forgot to actually post it in the list, but he said it did well for him.

Congrats again on the win Eric, and thanx for the new Deck box!

He got $50 and 2 cards, but I forgot the cards

Cavius The Great
11-07-2006, 11:20 AM
Eric, I really think your build should be put in the Open forums, considering all the success you've been having with your deck.

tivadar
11-20-2006, 12:22 PM
So Here's all the details for all the tourneys I've been to. Will continue to update this as I go.

I went 3-0-1 in Source Tournament (5?) here.
Gobbo w/ Lotus Petal: iOwn: 2-1 Jitte and Wave really own game 1 + 3 here.
Red Death: Kadishack: 2-0 Pro-red helps, and game 2 meddling stops his winning bolts.
Aeon Blue Apocolypse: Evil Roopey: 2-0 He doesn't get the removal he needs
Seismic Loam: Dontbiteitholmes: 2-1 Close, but meddling on loam really helps.
Unknown: Anusien: Intentional draw into T8
Aeon Blue Apocolypse: Evil Roopey: 0-2 This time he sees nearly all his removal...

I went 2-2 at the Dragon's Lair in a tourney for 4x pithing needles and 22 people.
Black-Blue weenie control: 1-2 Confidant hurt, didn't see removal.
UGR Thresh: 2-1 Parallax tide saves the last match.
WGB Control: 2-0 Quick aggro plus him being behind on lands.
Wub Angel Stompy: 0-2 Didn't see the removal when I needed it.

I went 4-1 (losing to herbig) at the mana clash, with about 60 people I believe. This put me in the standings somewhere between 4th and 7th place along with getting me some prize money. There, the decks I faced were:
Solidarity (Herbig): 0-2 Double mulligan one game, mulligan the other. He had Force.
UR Landstill: 2-1 Parallax tide saves the day, swing ftfyb.
BW Confidant: 2-0 Jitte rocks.
Shade Loam: 2-0 Jitte still rocks.
Counterbalance Control: 2-0 Even with counterbalance, I can hit BS then Angel.

I went 3-0-1 in regular rounds, then 3-0 in the finals in a 22 person tournament at the Dragon's Lair securing myself 4x Force of Wills.
Burn: 2-0 Stifle on Rift Bolt really helps, as does Jitte + Sofi
Loam-Gro (Red): 2-1 Sofi helps G1, then my opponent gets stuck at 2 lands G3
UW Weenie: 2-0 His removal is no match for mine, and my creatures are better
Unknown: Draw into T8
Sligh: 2-0 Despite getting stuck on 1 mana G1, this matchup is still ridiculously favorable.
Shade-Loam: 2-0 Same as at the mana-clash. My aggro is faster than his
Smart Goblins: 2-0 Tough, but favorable with stifle. G2 pariah and parallax wave helped.

I went 2-1-1 in a 16 person tournament at the Dragon's Lair.
BR Vial Affinity: baneoftheliving: 0-2 I see NO removal when I need it.
UGRW Thresh: angelofdespair: 2-0 Stifle nailing a fetch just really hurts this deck.
Welder Sur: 1-1-1 After losing G1, I switch to aggro w/ FoW and take G2, G3 goes to time.
White Weenie: 2-0 Lots of removal = much hurt.

Cavius The Great
11-20-2006, 01:28 PM
Sligh: 2-0 Despite getting stuck on 1 mana G1 (2 mothers), this matchup is still ridiculously favorable.

I happened to be that victim, lol. I really wish I played someone else instead of you the first round of top8. It would of been so cool me and you battling for 1st place. Oh well, I'm just glad you did so well. I got nothing but love for ya.

I really think this deck deserves a spot in the Open Legacy forums, it's just that good and it's been putting up amazing numbers. Maybe the Mods will catch on.

I'm also curious, who played the UW weenie that made top8? Was it Bill? I doubt that he made top8 with a 2-2 record.

insertnamehere
11-20-2006, 10:46 PM
Considering I was sitting next to you in the top 8 playing against Goblins. Oh and if I believe correct my deck Powned your deck first round. Remember now.

Cavius The Great
11-21-2006, 11:08 AM
You still had a 2-2 record, I was 3-1 bro (going into the top8) and I assumed people with 2-2 records didn't make the cut. You must of lucked out big time, eh Bill? :wink:

insertnamehere
11-27-2006, 07:35 AM
You still had a 2-2 record, I was 3-1 bro (going into the top8) and I assumed people with 2-2 records didn't make the cut. You must of lucked out big time, eh Bill? :wink:
Please note this is not how we did.

Tividar,
Have you considered using Serra Avengers. I also noticed you were not running vials in the deck, how come?

Lego
11-27-2006, 10:48 AM
Have you considered using Serra Avengers. I also noticed you were not running vials in the deck, how come?

The last thing you want is to be staring down Lackey, Piledriver on turn two with nothing but Serra Avenger in hand. I'll take a 2/2 I can play over a 20/20 I can't any day. As for Vial, it would pretty much require taking out creatures, which is very bad. And it doesn't really do anything for the difficult matchups. The only point I can see is that it makes Meddling Mage uncounterable, and that won't improve too many matchups.

Cavius The Great
11-27-2006, 11:19 AM
Please note this is not how we did.

Tividar,
Have you considered using Serra Avengers. I also noticed you were not running vials in the deck, how come?

You calling me a liar, Bill? That's exactly how we did. I had a better record than you going into the Top8. I have no idea how you even got into the Top8.

technogeek5000
11-28-2006, 02:01 PM
I played you at the manaclash open as your second opponent... to bad landstill was the wrong deck to run. The parralax completely ruined my mishra's and everything else... congrats on your performance. Yah after the second loss in a row i dropped, my list ran black by the way... for confidant nights whisper, duress and a ostracize. Your list is and was hot.

tivadar
11-28-2006, 06:40 PM
I played you at the manaclash open as your second opponent... to bad landstill was the wrong deck to run. The parralax completely ruined my mishra's and everything else... congrats on your performance. Yah after the second loss in a row i dropped, my list ran black by the way... for confidant nights whisper, duress and a ostracize. Your list is and was hot.

Thanks for the shout out. Actually, my landstill matchup, while slightly better than average, is still rather mediocre. I got lucky getting the double parallax tide against you. I've actually made a maindeck change, I was using soltari priest maindeck, but switched over to grunt. Also, I'm debating changing out mother of runes for something, not quite sure what. Been having trouble with faerie stompy, 5/3, and solidarity mainly. Doesn't seem to be one good answer against all three, but was actually debating psionic blast. Thoughts?

Alfred
11-28-2006, 07:01 PM
Thanks for the shout out. Actually, my landstill matchup, while slightly better than average, is still rather mediocre. I got lucky getting the double parallax tide against you. I've actually made a maindeck change, I was using soltari priest maindeck, but switched over to grunt. Also, I'm debating changing out mother of runes for something, not quite sure what. Been having trouble with faerie stompy, 5/3, and solidarity mainly. Doesn't seem to be one good answer against all three, but was actually debating psionic blast. Thoughts?

This may not help the Solidarity match all that much, but Parallax Wave is still probably the best way of beating aggro decks like FS and 5/3, so if you want to cover those matchups better, I would suggest running more of them. Psionic Blast also seems like it could help out with all three matchups, but not immensely.

Cavius The Great
11-29-2006, 02:10 PM
Psionic Blast seems kinda cool. The damage you take from it is pretty much recovered by Exalted Angel. You're also able to cast it efficiently with City/Tombs and cater to the mana curve.

SpatulaOfTheAges
11-29-2006, 02:19 PM
Why no Wasteland/Port? With 4x Stifle, and Tide, having an LD/Disruption suite seems like it would be assumed.

hi-val
11-29-2006, 04:27 PM
Have you considered Tithe at all? It lets you cheat on a couple lands and it seems like a pretty decent card. It'd also help you fix blue mana.

Your list seems to have a lot of 2-ofs; have you thought of cutting some stuff to increase consistency? For example, I know SOFI is a nuts card but I think I'd want a Jitte every day of the week for my Silver Knight when I had the option.

tivadar
11-29-2006, 08:51 PM
Responding to questions:

@Psionic Blast: I had wanted it to be a creature, possibly one like devout witness that could get rid of annoying chalice @1. Then I started considering blast. Any more parallax waves are out of the question right now, they just are too dead against solidarity mainboard first game, and I've got enough dead cards against solidarity. Psionic blast is direct damage if needed, can get around chalice @1, and is well costed.

@Wasteland/Port: This is fine in a white weenie build, but we need heavy mana, and we play two colors already and use tomb/city for accelleration. Adding any more colorless land will just kill the deck. It can work if you go a different way with things, but that's not this deck.

@Tithe: Tried in Angel Stompy, dropped. We have brainstorm for a T1 play, which is also not bad late game like tithe typically is. Tithe without mask of memory is just silly.

@2-ofs: First off, sofi is just better than jitte against control. Against aggro, jitte gets the edge but sofi is far from bad. Yes, each equipment is a 2-of, but I typically want to see 1 piece of equipment per game (of either type), so 4 total is a good number. Also, 2-ofs are less of an issue with brainstorm. The only other 2-of is Serendib, and he'd become 2x Angel if I could run 6 :-P. Oh yeah, and grunt, which I don't want to see more than 1-of per game basically.

Zilla
11-30-2006, 11:02 PM
I tested the deck some today (with a few changes to the maindeck). Overall I like the feel of the deck, but I have a few observations:

1. I'm not a big fan of Parallax Tide. It's really not very good against Goblins because they have so many ways to play around it, and if they're really worried about it, they should rarely have much problem keeping you off of double blue. It's decent against Thresh, except that with countermagic (Daze especially), it's rarely going to see play before turn 4 or 5, which would be around the time they're playing the Worship that totally reams you. It's decent against Solidarity, but there's a fair chance that it will be going off around the time it becomes active anyway. Against other storm-based combo, it's really pretty irrellevant because they're not heavily reliant on their land count. Against board control decks it can be quite good, but only in conjunction with Stifle. Without it, they'll likely be able to stall you long enough to get their lands back.

The biggest reason I'm not a huge fan of Tide, though, is that it forces you to commit to double-blue, which I really don't like. It forces you to make difficult decisions against decks packing Wastelands, and the 2 maindeck Islands occasionally cause manascrew in the early game.

2. I'd like to see a little bit more draw in the maindeck. Brainstorm is great, but I'd like a little more oomph in the lategame, which has classically been one of Angel Stompy's weaknesses. Fact or Fiction seems like a natural fit for a deck that curves out at 4, and it doesn't require a double-blue mana commitment. The build I was testing was running 3 each of Wave and Tide in the maindeck (I cut a lot of 2-of's to make other 2-of's into 3-of's). I could easily see dropping the Tides in favor of FoF, with either Tide or Geddon in the SB for decks where you really need the land disruption.

3. Just for kicks, I tested 3 Tithe in place of 2 Fetches and a basic Island. I'm neither here nor there on it, really. It's probably not worth it, but I wanted to see how it worked. It can force you to choose between Brainstorm and Tithe on the first turn, which isn't that great, and it can occasionally force a mull where a fetch might not have. I only mention it so that it can be said they've been tested.

For reference, the list I tested (with the changes I'd like to try after original testing):

//NAME: W/u Angel Stompy

// Mana
4 Plains
1 Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

// Beats
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Silver Knight
4 Meddling Mage
2 Serendib Efreet
4 Exalted Angel

// Equipment
3 Umezawa's Jitte

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Parallax Wave
3 Fact or Fiction

tivadar
12-01-2006, 08:47 AM
Interesting changes/suggestions, let me comment on them:

First off, as I've said, I toyed with the idea of dropping mother and was debating what to add in its place. I hadn't considered additional maindeck grunts, which I think makes a lot of sense given how amazing they are in most matchups. Generally, however, I want to hit a 2cc other than grunt turn 2, and it looks as if that hasn't changed in the configuration you provided. Definite kudos for the suggestion there, don't know why I hadn't thought of something as obvious as upping the grunt and possibly serendib count.

@Tithe: I've tried it too, and the issue is that with brainstorm maindeck, I'd much rather be doing that first turn than having to cast tithe because I'm low on lands. On top of this, it also leads to additional manascrew. Though this doesn't happen too often, with 2 double colorless sources, it can.

@WTF no sofi: I have only love for sword of fire and ice. While jitte is amazing against goblins and weenie aggro, against thresh and solidarity, sofi is infinitely better. On top of this, it's some of the card advantage you were talking about. I'm curious what your logic is for dropping it.

@ Tide: So here's the long discussion. Let me first say that this card is absolute crap against goblins, brainstorm fetch it away whenever possible. However, against any sort of control, it is awesome. If thresh is packing worship maindeck, I'm screwed no matter what (though I think my board at least is going to start packing enchantment hate). My experience with tide against thresh is that their counterspells HAVE to come out early, as your threats are nearly all actual threats against them (with the exclusion of silver knight). Frequently, when I hit tide turn 4 (almost always, occassionally turn 3 with a double land), they're out of counter, or at the very least have to force of will it. This is inherent card advantage. Anything thresh has to force is awesome.

Against solidarity, parallax tide is just as good as geddon, which is to say it's mediocre, but certainly not a dead card.

Even without stifle, however, it gives you at least a few turn of swinging without risk of a board sweeper/counter in many matchups. Essentially it serves the exact same purpose as Wave in the aggro matchup, it removes their "threats" temporarily to let you get your damage across.

Honestly, I've considered other cards in place of tide, namely cataclysm (great synergy with grunt and flagstones, good against weenie and swarm). As for the double blue cost, in the matchups where it counts (solidarity and thresh), fetching tundras doesn't hurt. The only exception to this is 43-lands, where tide is awesome and they have port/wasteland.

@2 islands: Interestingly enough, I've found things tend to go the other way. Generally if I'm getting manascrewed it's from lack of blue mana, not blue mana flooding. This is primarily because even with a single blue mana, I can always brainstorm and almost always find a fetch. With just a single white (or even multiple white) mana, I don't have this option. I've played around with the manabase quite a bit, and think even dropping tide I'd keep 2 islands.

@ draw spells: Believe me, I've thought about it. My main issue boils down to the fact that this is still an aggro deck, and a draw spell costs a turn without changing board position. In my experience, this can really hurt. On top of this, were I to go the draw spell route, I'd play compulsive reasearch over fact or fiction any day. I've found it to be be better.

Tao
12-01-2006, 09:31 AM
Serra Avenger is really strong. I think it would be great as a 2-3-off in Zillas list. It has some major advantages:

- It helps you when you are manascrewed
- Vigilance 3/3 flying is awesome against everything
- the low mana cost allows you to play the creature and equip it the same turn (or keep Stifle Mana open, or Brainstorm/Swords mana)

urdjur
12-01-2006, 04:16 PM
I think GodzillA's mana base look pretty consistent, and I would be surprised it manascrewed you for blue that often. How come the 2/2 split between tomb/city? Is it for Grunt's benefit or just because you might as well and the damage hurts?

Dropping mother will have a bad effect on the threshold match-up, especially if dropping SoFI. On Tivadar's jitte note, it's much easier to make it work against thres if you can use mom to protect your jitte-guy, even if just for the first time you use jitte.

Having said that, adding more Grunts might make up for this loss of threshold oomph entirely. In fact, if you go for Compulsive Research, I'd consider a full complement of four Jötun Grunts, as you can probably make use of two in any game - perhaps playing even three against threshold (some may be counter fodder though - but hey, it's just a 2cc investment). As for draw in an aggro deck, I think it's the way to go when playing fat bombs like you are. You can easily recover from the lack of board development if you put down a turn 3 efreet or a turn 4 angel. Of course, this plan is contingent on having cheap, early and efficient removal, which you do - and the additional draw also gets you more where that came from.

I wouldn't add Serra Avengers without mom back-up, as they are fairly week against threshold on their own. The vigilance is very nice if you can make them survive a werebear (or even enforcer) block, though.

It's a nice concept. It's hard to go wrong with splashed AS running meddling magi, but framing it all in a tight, synergistic concept can be quite challenging.

Zilla
12-02-2006, 06:29 AM
Definite kudos for the suggestion there, don't know why I hadn't thought of something as obvious as upping the grunt and possibly serendib count.
I'd considered upping the Serendib count here as well. I could see 2 Grunt and 3 Efreet. That's really a metagame call I think.


@WTF no sofi: I have only love for sword of fire and ice. While jitte is amazing against goblins and weenie aggro, against thresh and solidarity, sofi is infinitely better. On top of this, it's some of the card advantage you were talking about. I'm curious what your logic is for dropping it.
I'll be the first to admit it wasn't a super well thought out decision. The main reason I chose Jitte over SoFI is because of the mana cost. With 6 Parallax Effects in the deck, you really want to be spending your turn 3 or 4 casting those, and that would be the turn you'd be casting SoFI. I chose Jitte because it comes down a turn earlier, and seemed to fit the curve better. Both deserve testing, but for the sake of consistency I think you probably want to go with a 3 count of one or the other.


@ Tide: So here's the long discussion. (etc.)
Again, I defer to your greater experience in this matter. I only tested a few games against a few different decks, and my initial impression of Tide wasn't that good. It could improve with more testing. I simply thought it would be interesting to test a strong draw spell like FoF here to see how it shores up the late game, particularly against control.


@2 islands: Interestingly enough, I've found things tend to go the other way. Generally if I'm getting manascrewed it's from lack of blue mana, not blue mana flooding. This is primarily because even with a single blue mana, I can always brainstorm and almost always find a fetch. With just a single white (or even multiple white) mana, I don't have this option. I've played around with the manabase quite a bit, and think even dropping tide I'd keep 2 islands.
I think I prefer 7 fetches, but that's just me. You'll always have one blue source when you need it, and the only deck that's likely to be able to keep you off double blue for Wave is the deck where you need it the least, that being Goblins. There are exceptions, I suppose, but I see very few) decks with recurring Wastelands in my meta, so 2 basic Islands seems like overkill, particularly when that extra fetch has synergy with Brainstorm and Grunt.


@ draw spells: Believe me, I've thought about it. My main issue boils down to the fact that this is still an aggro deck, and a draw spell costs a turn without changing board position. In my experience, this can really hurt. On top of this, were I to go the draw spell route, I'd play compulsive reasearch over fact or fiction any day. I've found it to be be better.
I think it's unwise to pigeon-hole yourself by saying "this is an aggro deck, it doesn't want draw". Classically, aggro strategies fail specifically because they don't have any draw. The main exception to this rule are the ones that are so fast they don't need it. This deck doesn't fall into that category. Draw may be incorrect, but it's worth considering.

As for the Compulsive Research vs. FoF argument, there's a whoooole lot to be said for instant speed. It lets you play around countermagic, first and foremost. It also lets you dig for a FoW when you really need one. Fact or Fiction is one of the best standalone draw spells in the format. My inclination would be to use it if I were going to run any blue draw spell.



How come the 2/2 split between tomb/city?
I don't really know, actually. I did it because tivadar did. I'm not really sure how I feel about it because I never drew a City in my testing. I'd be inclined to go back to 4 Tomb, but maybe tivadar has some solid reasoning behind it. I'm curious to hear his thoughts on it.


Anyway, I was just giving my initial impressions from some pretty limited testing, and tossing out some ideas I thought might benefit the strategy. I'll test it some more when I get some time, but I'm also working on a pretty significant overhaul of mono-white Angel Stompy, so it might be a bit.

tivadar
12-02-2006, 09:09 AM
Nods, I've been doing testing with 3 grunt, 3 serendib, and it hasn't changed the matchups a whole lot initially. My one concern is that there are enough matchups where I can't really cast grunt until T4 unless I want him to die without swinging twicish. There are occassions where he's the only creatures I have, especially running 3 of him, and this is a bad thing. Ideally, much like avenger, grunt is a lower-costed beater that you want to play a bit later in the game.

As for sofi, the two-two split doesn't bother me. Either generally works, and it prevents pithing needle on one or the other from shutting down all my equipment. Actually, I think sofi can work just as well in conjunction with parallax, as sofi=5 mana, jitte=4 mana. If you want to play and equip in the same turn, you do that immediately after you cast wave in the game. If you want to play, then equip next turn, then you're right, jitte works better for that with parallax. Also, I only run 4 parallax effects, not 6, in my list. Once again, also helpful against pithing, though I'd like a good way to dig for them, and perhaps FoF is the answer.

Addressing 2x city and only 6 fetches. The fact is that the damage does hurt, especially with serendib mainboard and FoW potentially in the side. I've had games where I bring myself down to 13 life without being touched by my opponent by 3rd turn. Of course, this also typically involves me swinging with an equipped serendib that turn as well. Against things like burn and goblins, the extra damage hurts and city is a LOT better than Tomb. Generally, there's very little drawback with it as well, as the deck peaks at 4-5 mana. This means you go basic, basic, city, or basic, basic, basic, city, without a drawback unless you want to play a T2 exalted or serendib. So no, it's not to feed grunt, and was in the deck long before grunt was.

As for FoF vs. CR, you're right, there is a whole lot to be said for instant vs. sorcery, and draw vs. reveal, and targetting vs. non-targetted. However, the louder statement in my mind was 3 mana vs. 4 mana. My experience with FoF was that it definetly felt like it was too late in the game and hard to maintain the pressure before with it in opening grip. With CR, this got a bit better but it still hurt. Another thing I've been toying with is actually 2x court hussar. Essentially it's a (weak) threat that gives you non-targetted, non-draw card advantage. Spending the white for this is never an issue, the only thing that is is the fact that you can't accellerate it out without chrome mox. It's not the best of threats, but against many decks, any creature in a storm as they say :-P. It also has decent synergy with brainstorm. Finally, I saw someone running perilous research in conjunction with flagstones of trokair, which I thought was an interesting choice.

Just to give you an idea of my "problem" matchups:
Solidarity: Still the toughest matchup for this deck, even with meddling, they can hit 6-7 lands and go off without high tide. If there's a better thing for mage to name against them I'd like to know it.
Faerie Stompy: Chalice at 1 really hurts as it gets all your permanent removal (stifle + swords). Without them getting chalice you basically win, and even if they have chalice you're still ok with parallax wave.
Homebrew: If they went the creature removal route, this matchup can hurt. The land destruction doesn't mean a whole lot, but a bunch of vindicates/stp, followed by hymn can be devastating.
Burn: There are certain things that make you just win this matchup (grunt with stp, jitte, pariah). Without those, though, it's actually quite difficult, as it's basically a race. Also, you're fetching basics exclusively here, so fitting your manacurve isn't always easy.

tivadar
12-21-2006, 12:40 PM
To answer questions:
@Additional Parallax Waves feel like too many and really hurt the solidarity/iggy matchup, where they need to be boarded out.
@Psionic Blast: After playtesting a bit, I've found I REALLY want 18 creatures and not 16, while Psionic Blast feels like a creature in that it can do damage, it can't wear equipment, which is a real weakness.
@Adding Grunts: 3 is too many. You get stuck not being able to cast them in a lot of matchups because of empty graveyards, and 3 makes this even worse.

Recent new test. I've taken out City of Traitors and added in Chrome mox. I've always liked the speed boost it gave but hated the card disadvantage. I also felt like adding in TFK/CR felt like too much of a slow-down/janky. What I've been trying recently is Court Hussar and I've really liked the results. I've never had an issue spending the white for him (obviously). And typically when I get tomb island, I at least have another option for a turn 2 play other than him. He's reasonably well-costed, jitte is amazing with vigilance, and his dig power is rather good. Probably going to be making this change to the main decklist above. Basically, he gives me card draw and an immediate body on the board.

Sideboard I've been debating, and I've recently gotten my hands on 2 In the Eye of Chaos. This only affects my stifle/bs/stp, which are one mana anyways. What this does to burn/solidarity/iggy/a lot of control, is just too good to pass up. On top of this, I'm still debating the best board card to fit in against things like 5/3, affinity and FS (preferrably some artifact/enchantment hate). My current board configuration looks like this:

2 In the Eye of Chaos
2 Glowrider
4 Force of Will
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Armageddon
3 ?

The things I've been looking at are energy flux/aura of silence, engineered explosives, and hurkyl's recall. I really like HR, in that it can get rid of pithings/null rod long enough for me to equip and win. In addition, casting it in response to chalice@2 against FS means that they can't get another chalice@1 out against you. HR also owns 5/3 and affinity. My only issue with it is that humility/worship still can really hurt. I guess that's what Force of Will is for... Also, I'd like HR more if it cost 3 instead of 2 :-P. Damn Magic and undercosting cards...

Bardo
12-21-2006, 01:29 PM
OMG!, this is awesome and totally freaking creepy, but without ever knowing this thread existed, I've been working on this list on and off since February. Lately (like this past week), I even dusted off the list and started working on it again. Here's where I left off as of Sunday:

Accelerated WW/u
by Bardo

4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Meddling Mage
4 Silver Knight
3 Serra Avenger
3 Serendib Efreet
2 Exalted Angel

4 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

4 AEther Vial
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
5 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island

sb: 3 Pithing Needle
sb: 3 Parallax Wave
sb: 3 Armageddon
sb: 3 Jotun Grunt
sb: 3 Glowrider

And then I found this thread. :smile: I'll have to go back through this thread to see if I'm going to make any changes to my list.

Wasteland is the thing I've considered the most lately. I also had Grunt in the maindeck, but found I couldn't pay the upkeep cost too much, so I just boarded them and dropped the Crypts in the sideboard instead.

Other cards I've tested/considered in the creature slots:
Whipcorder
White Knight
Galina's Knight
Paladin En-Vec
True Believer
Glowrider
Soltari Priest
Old Man of the Sea
Knight of the Holy Nimbus
Pride of Clouds
Azorius Herald
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

Some of these I've tested more than others.

Edit -

Here's where I started in February (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27084.0).

And a more recent attempt in September (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29961.0).

tivadar
12-21-2006, 01:54 PM
Hmmm, isn't this fish? It seems to drop manlands for exalteds, and a bunch of counters for a bunch of creatures. My main worry with it is that you get into too many situations where standstill is dead because you don't have board position. Anyways, this looks a lot closer to either UW fish or my old UW AS build, which, while good, had big problems against control and combo. Don't forget, pithing still shuts down your engine and makes Avenger and Standstill bad.

Cavius The Great
12-21-2006, 03:30 PM
Yea.... I would never run Standstill without manlands.

Bardo
12-21-2006, 03:52 PM
Yea.... I would never run Standstill without manlands.

Turn 1 Isamaru, Turn 2 Standstill works fine. Basically you just need a single guy on the board for it to be worth casting.


Don't forget, pithing still shuts down your engine and makes Avenger and Standstill bad.

AEther Vial isn't the "engine," it's just a nifty toy. I've addressed the Standstill point a second ago and Avenger is still fine even without it. Just consider it a four-drop that costs two mana. It's not like this deck isn't brimming with solid turn 2 and/or turn 3 plays anyway.

As for it looking like Fish, yeah, it's the evolution of the "Angel Fish" deck I wrote about in this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10025.html).

As for it being bad, it is. It's just a fun casual thing I bring out every now and then. I'd never take it to a tournament.


The last thing you want is to be staring down Lackey, Piledriver on turn two with nothing but Serra Avenger in hand. I'll take a 2/2 I can play over a 20/20 I can't any day.

By that logic, do you not play anything with a casting cost greater than 2 in any deck you play?

tivadar
01-07-2007, 11:57 PM
More success with this deck. I split for first in the 4x Tundra tourney at the Dragon's Lair this weekend with 22 people. Was fairly lucky in that I don't think much if any solidarity was there. Also go paired against Sligh and Burn through the day, as well as having to face down welder. Was a good tourney and I'm happy the deck continues to do well. I think I'm bringing it to GP: Ohio. To go for the terrible joke, after seeing parallax wave and tide, GP: Ohio is going to become GP: Ohbyeo!

Also editing the main page. Wanted to put my tournament results in some sort of table, so sorry for the bad formatting there but I can't quite figure out how to do it.

Bane of the Living
01-08-2007, 04:35 PM
Congrats on your finish eric, the deck looks like it belongs in the Open Forums now. How was the sideboard tech throughout the day? How happy were you with Court Hussar?

tivadar
01-08-2007, 05:37 PM
Outside of the sligh matchup at one point, there wasn't a time I got a hussar and didn't want it in my hand. Even in sligh it was primarily because I had FoW and used hussar and didn't see another blue card. At one point it nabbed me the stifle for the parallax wave I had just played. It also bore a jitte for me for a bit as well.

The sideboard was solid, Engineered Explosives was the bomb in a couple matchups. Force of Will was a gamebreaker a couple of times as well (once even hardcast). I didn't face any matchups where Hurkyl's Recall or Armageddon would come in handy, and even though I boarded the 2 In the Eye of Chaos I had against burn, I didn't actually see them in either of the last two games.

Cavius The Great
01-08-2007, 06:20 PM
Congrats on your finish eric, the deck looks like it belongs in the Open Forums now. How was the sideboard tech throughout the day? How happy were you with Court Hussar?

I've been telling him to put the deck in the Open Forums for like an eternity now. The deck is amazing. :tongue:

markbris
02-16-2007, 03:23 PM
I really like the look of this deck. Can you update tivadar with your current sb and maindeck?

Cavius The Great
03-02-2007, 01:04 AM
Note to Mods: Please put this thread in the Open Forums. It's been putting up too many strong numbers to not get recognition. Tivadar has been putting up amazing numbers with this deck. I see no reason why this thread shouldn't be in the Open Forums and I think it's long overdue. I don't have enough fingers to count all the times Eric has made Top 8 with this deck in various tournaments.