[Deck] TES (The EPIC Storm) [Archive]

Bryant Cook

11-11-2006, 10:22 PM

Alright, where to begin? This article is here to teach you everything there is to know about The EPIC Storm. The EPIC Storm was created by me Bryant Cook, along with my team The EPIC Syndicate, as an attempt to make a valid storm based deck. The mechanic Storm was first printed in the set Scourge; storm copies the spell that is cast for how many spells are played before it that turn. You may be saying,”…And I care why?” You see certain cards with the mechanic storm can be used as win conditions - such as the win conditions Tendrils of Agony and Brain Freeze. When The EPIC Storm was created the only valid win condition for sorcery speed combo was Tendrils of Agony. This means you’d need a storm count of ten to kill someone with Tendrils of Agony. This is accomplished by playing zero casting cost artifacts, acceleration, and tutors. Innovation on The EPIC Storm really started with the release of Cold Snap and Time Spiral; these two sets gave The EPIC Storm the endurance it needed to survive with cards such as Rite of Flame and Empty the Warrens.

General History
One of the initial problems of The EPIC Storm was that reaching a storm count of ten was impossible with your 7 card hand; to solve this problem we knew we had a few options. Either A) Add draw to the deck, B) Add tutors to the deck or C) Add “Win now” cards to the deck (Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns). To help us we decided to utilize tutors, eventually we did all 3 options in separate time frames. The preliminary list of the deck contained only tutors. Although this solved the problem of reaching a storm count, then there were no “Bombs” or a real reason for tutors to be in the deck. With the addition of Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains the deck had strong tutor cards outside of Tendrils of Agony. Draw was added much later in the evolution of The EPIC Storm; the deck in its infancy went through millions of changes and cuts.

The deck ran different ways of producing mana until Cold Snap came out and the inclusion of Rite of Flame was added, making the deck even faster while freeing up slots in the main deck. With the ever exciting release of Cold Snap I was ecstatic along with other members of EPIC; this set gave The EPIC Storm the cards it needed to man handle the control match-up. With the Addition of Grapeshot the deck had a way around a troublesome card Meddling Mage, while gaining another win condition. Grapeshot was the card that shined out to me personally, then was cut later in time. Then Adam Barnello (Mr. Nightmare) of the EPIC Syndicate advised me to test Empty the Warrens. I was skeptical at first and then astonished; this card allows you do ridiculous things to the Threshold match-up while allowing you to combo out more easily. At this point in time there were debated slots in the deck and this is when draw option A was included with Brainstorm.

Choosing The EPIC Storm
“Why play The EPIC Storm?” It’s a logical question. I sure won’t pick up a deck without good reason. The EPIC storm has something that other combo decks just don’t have – no, not good-looks - but being both fast yet stable. Most combo decks trade one for the other or settle for a slower average win while having both. You’re probably still thinking “…And why do I care?” am I right? There’s one blistering fact about The EPIC Storm that separates it from the rest - its ability to not care about all the hate thrown at it. The deck can win through the million obstacles put in its way. I would list the millions of hate cards that people play but more than likely I would forget one and people will assume I lose to it so I won’t. However if the deck is piloted by a strong player the deck can fight through anything.

Many combo decks have to face the dreaded Meddling Mage, but with The EPIC Storm the Meddling Kids aren’t truly scary. The EPIC Storm has options that other storm based combo decks don’t have and one of them is simply winning with another card; between Tendrils of Agony AND Empty the Warrens, you should never have a problem with Meddling Mage. Another option is the multitalented card Burning Wish; you’ll Burning Wish for Earthquake or Rough/Tumble to deal with multiple chants from Mages. The last and probably weakest option is going to be Cabal Pit. I call it the weakest because you almost never want to tutor for a land and therefore “miss” your land drop to kill something pesky. However being a land has a side effect of being uncounterable which is good enough for its inclusion.

Finally my reason to play The EPIC Storm is the fact it is challenging to play and I dislike decks that you can play on “Auto-Pilot.” This deck takes time and practice to learn how to play correctly and it can only increase your playskill. That may turn people/players away, but decks that require skill to play are generally thought provoking and complicated and if someone can’t handle it they shouldn’t have mounted the bull anyways. If you’re prepared to grab the bull by the horns and are ready for the long run continue reading.

The Deck List
The EPIC Storm

Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tomb of Urami

Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm

Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Burning Wish
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Rite of Flame
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Brainstorm

Sideboard
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tranquility
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Earthquake
SB: 1 Duress

The Deck Breakdown

The Mana Base
Since The EPIC Storm is a four color deck it cannot run on dual lands which means we will need an alternative source of many colors of mana. Lands such as City of Brass, Gemstone Mine and Undiscovered Paradise are key factors to The EPIC Storm for their ability to produce any color of mana. “But why is more than one color important?” Well you see being able to cast first turn Xantid Swarm then second turn Plunge into Darkness is a key factor, this is one of many examples. Not being able to cast cards in the deck due to them being different colors can often hinder your ability to win fast. Tomb of Urami was added to the deck after a lot of consideration because it gets around Pyrostatic Pillar and Chalice of the Void. Then again it’s never a bad idea to just go beat down.

Are eleven lands really enough? Believe it or not eleven lands is plenty with twelve artifact mana producing cards and twelve ritual effects, eleven lands works out perfectly.

Tutors and Draw
To play The EPIC Storm you must play tutors since the deck is (duh!) tutor based. This goes back the beginning with reaching that special storm number… what was it again? I believe it was ten. Let’s get onto the point. Tutors are what make this deck go round and without tutors that suit this deck, you’ll never reach a storm of ten. You need certain tutors for this deck because not all tutors work the same way as one another. Tutors such as Infernal Tutor synergize with other cards in your deck.

Infernal Tutor is one of the most synergistic cards in the deck as you may or may not know. The card has incredible synergy with Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, and Ill-Gotten Gains. Lion’s Eye Diamond let’s your Infernal Tutor have Hellbent. This is accomplished by putting Infernal Tutor on the stack and using Lion’s Eye Diamond to discard your hand. Rite of Flame is also savagely good with Infernal Tutor, finding another Rite of Flame to increase your mana and increasing storm count is never a bad idea. Infernal Tutor with Ill-Gotten Gains may not seem like a “Combo” or very synergistic to you but it’s the only tutor in the deck that can come back reliably with Ill-Gotten Gains without causing too much harm. You see Burning Wish removes it’s self from the game and Plunge into Darkness can be very risky.

Burning Wish may be the most powerful tutor of Legacy; I’m aware this is an opinion but the card has no drawback and is very powerful and versatile. The card allows broken turn one and two wins, while only increasing power in the middle to late game. It lets you access answers for problems that might occur with answers such as Shattering Spree, Tranquility, Earthquake or Rough/tumble and Empty the Warrens. While Burning Wish is not able to comeback with Ill-Gotten Gains it can however keep bringing back Ill-Gotten gains. This is important for ramping up your storm count; the more storm the better off you’ll be. The most tutored for cards off of Burning Wish are Diminishing Returns, Ill-Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony, and finally Empty the Warrens.

The most thought provoking card in this deck is Plunge into Darkness. This card is the most frequently mis-played cards in the deck for many reasons. People often don’t know when to cast Plunge into Darkness, or how much life to pay with Plunge. All of your questions will be answered AND you’ll learn how to play it correctly!

Plunge into Darkness has no one proper time to play it; it has many opportune times based on the hand you’re given. Here’s an example.

It’s turn one on the play; your opening hand consists of Chrome Mox, City of Brass, Rite of Flame, Plunge into Darkness, Forbidden Orchard, Ill-Gotten Gains and Infernal Tutor. You have a few options here when it comes to Plunge into Darkness.
Option A) Play a Land, pass the turn. Next turn play the other land, Plunge during their end step.
Option B) Play a Land, play Chrome Mox (Removing: X) then casting Plunge into Darkness during your opponent’s end step.
These two are the choices you’ll be deciding on, the question is “What’s more optimal?” Well Option A) is kind of slow, but is more stable While Option B) Lets you attempt to win turn two, and is slightly less stable. The correct choice is Option B) why though? With The EPIC Storm you will want to win as fast as possible if you have no idea what they’re playing. Now that you know one example, start practicing more and more until your arms get tired of shuffling. Practice makes perfect, don’t forget it.

Now for the never ending question, “How much life do I pay with Plunge?” I hope this finally answers your questions so that my migraine will go away. “Well… how much do I pay?” it’s a simple question with many complicated answers. To correctly understand how to play Plunge into Darkness you will need to know many things. First off, what is your opponent playing? What turn is it? What is my life total? Am I winning next turn or now? Is Burning Wish in my hand? Is there anything I don’t want removed? How much mana do I have and of what colors? Am I using Plunge into Darkness as a set-up card or tutor? Lastly do I have another Plunge into Darkness? These are the questions you will need to be asking yourself in that order if you want to play The EPIC Storm correctly.

If your opponent is playing Vial Goblins you generally pay less life than you would pay against Solidarity. This is because of goblins somewhat speedy starts. Goblins’ speedy starts are often irrelevant because The EPIC Storm is much faster, but slow hands do occur. Well, how much is “less life than against Solidarity?” There’s no answer for this because of what turn you are casting Plunge; if you are casting Plunge into Darkness as a set-up during the end step card of the goblin player’s turn one ask yourself, “Do I have another tutor in hand.” if no; you’ll be going anywhere for 8-10 depending on your life total, looking for a better tutor or a “Win now” card. If yes, is that tutor Burning Wish? You don’t want to remove too many cards from the game with Plunge into Darkness; you’ll end up removing important cards such as the “Big Five” which are Lion’s Eye Diamond, Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains. These cards are the most tutored for cards in the deck. You often don’t want to remove them from the game because you’ll need a Burning Wish to have access to them again. Keep track in your head what turn you will be combo-ing out. If you are casting Plunge into Darkness as a set-up card and you’re not winning on your next turn or turn one I’d recommend doing it for 3-4. Using Plunge into Darkness as a tutor is probably the easiest thing about the card since you are looking for a specific card or another tutor to find that card. Just remember what color mana is in your mana pool and be very wary of your life total. This applies for other match-ups also.

Against Solidarity you can generally Plunge into Darkness for as much as you’d like since they deal you zero damage. But don’t forget about the “Big Five” while doing it; you may be cursing yourself later if you go too far into your deck. I know this seems so short compared to the information given to you on goblins but most of the details I gave you cover most match-ups. Although during this match-up Xantid Swarm is relevant so casting Plunge into Darkness during your own turn would more than likely be more optimal.

When your opponent is playing Threshold you want to always play Plunge into Darkness during the end step as a set-up card. When you do, only pay 3-5 life; you rarely cast Plunge as a tutor against Thresh since if they make you fizzle you are more than likely going to lose. The same things listed under goblins all apply here, but now you have to worry about counter magic as well.

Brainstorm is a very different card when it is played in The EPIC Storm. Brainstorm’s ability to fix somewhat unplayable hands into turn two hands and its ability to be incredibly flexible is why it was chosen to be in The EPIC Storm. “When do I brainstorm?” There are two opportune times to Brainstorm. Obviously one time is turn one; I mean C’mon who doesn’t want to see if they can win turn one? This changes if your opponent is playing swamps, discard is generally a bad match-up and you don’t want valued cards lost. The other opportune time to cast Brainstorm is with a Plunge into Darkness or a Burning Wish on the stack and then sacrificing Lion’s Eye Diamond. I don’t highly recommend trying to win off of Brainstorm and Lion’s Eye Diamonds. Not only is it terribly vulnerable but extremely risky.

Acceleration
Whether it’s Dark Ritual or High tide, acceleration is another key factor to any storm based deck. Without acceleration the deck cannot begin to “go off” so to speak, because you’ll be sitting there with a handful of dead cards. Cards such as Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, and Rite of Flame all have something in common. And what is that? Besides the fact that they’re all in this deck… It’s that they all produce more mana than their cost. They add mana to your mana pool so you can continue to ramp that storm count and continue casting spells. Dark Ritual is pretty much a given in this deck, but Cabal Ritual is a little bit different. People can forget when casting Cabal Ritual that it’s not Dark Ritual; by this I mean that they try casting it for a black or they forget about its ability threshold! Rite of Flame is a little different than Dark Ritual or Cabal Ritual because it messes up peoples math when it comes to combo-ing because it produces red mana and not black. Keep in mind that for each Rite of Flame in the graveyard, the card produces an additional red; the expression the more the merrier is actually true.

“This can’t be the only acceleration, can it?” You’re absolutely correct, there’s no way The EPIC Storm could possibly be consistent with only twelve “Ritual” effects. We need something else; but what? “Artifact mana?” Exactly; With The EPIC Storm artifact mana is just as important as “Ritual” mana if not more important. Cards such as Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, and Chrome Mox are very crucial to The EPIC Storm because they are a free means of ramping up that storm count while producing mana.

The card Lion’s Eye Diamond is very tricky card with this deck, because it has the ability of being Black Lotus or the ability to lose you the game. “Well, which one is it?” It all depends on how you play your cards with Lion’s Eye Diamond. Many people forget about using Lion’s Eye Diamond properly and by this I mean many things. People often forget that you MUST sacrifice Lion’s Eye Diamond before passing priority you may be saying. In order to use Lion’s Eye Diamond you have to do it before your opponent gets a chance to have priority to do anything or your opportunity at winning that game was more than likely loss. “Well why can’t I do it after my opponent says it resolves?” Here is why: after both players pass priority, a spell resolves and priority isn’t passed back to you. This isn’t the only thing people mess up; many people forget that you can put more than one spell on the stack then use Lion’s Eye Diamond. Putting multiple spells on the stack and then using Lion’s Eye Diamond is the best way of squeezing the juice out of it. For example, you have a Burning Wish on the stack, Lion’s Eye Diamond on the stack and a red, four black mana and an untapped City of Brass. In hand is Plunge into Darkness, Brainstorm, and Diminishing Returns. To do this correctly before passing priority you must in response cast Plunge into Darkness, then respond with Brainstorm, respond to that by sacrificing Lion’s Eye Diamond. That gives you the best means of abusing Lion’s Eye Diamond, while the order of Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness may not matter but Burning Wish must be the first spell since it is a sorcery.

After Lion’s Eye Diamond there’s Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox. There’s not much to be said about Lotus Petal, but Chrome Mox has a few things to be said on it; if you ever have a hand of 3 or 4 Chrome Mox, mulligan. “Why Chrome Mox?” Chrome Mox’s inclusion was decided on the fact that this deck needs all the mana it can get. “Is the card disadvantage worth the one mana?” Actually yes it is; you see Chrome Mox requires you to remove a card. Chrome Mox is extremely helpful when trying to be Hellbent with Infernal Tutor when you don’t have a Lion’s Eye Diamond. “What if I imprint Xantid Swarm and can’t cast anything?” This is your own fault. I will say it again and again and people won’t listen, think before you act with this deck it will only help you. I’ve never gone to time in the round because I’ve had to think about a play - neither will you. Even if there is a Mox Emerald on the table you can still tap it for a green; meaning you play cards that have 1 before the black or red.

Protection
The EPIC Storm plays protection much like any other deck out there, but there’s something different about The EPIC Storm’s protection than most decks. The EPIC Storm plays protection that lasts through different effects. Cards like Duress and Cabal Therapy only take away cards from one hand; while cards such as Xantid Swarm allows you to go off completely unhindered. Cards like Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns changes the game state by giving both players completely new hands which those Duress’s and Therapies were completely wasted. With Xantid Swarm they can’t even cast any of the cards that were given to them by Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns.

Huge threats
You may be wondering, “What am I accelerating and Tutoring into?” You see every storm based deck needs a card to be better than others and win you the game. The EPIC Storm has several of these to make your life easier, they are; Diminishing Returns, Ill-Gotten Gains, Empty the Warrens and last and foremost Tendrils of Agony. Why are these important? Without a way to gain a massive storm count by either Diminishing Returns or Ill-Gotten Gains combo-ing out in the early turns would be incredibly harder; making the deck less consistent.

Let’s first start out with Diminishing Returns. Legacy’s Time Twister has an amazing level of power that is indescribable but I’ll do my best to try. “Why Diminishing Returns? I mean it costs UU?” Its mana cost makes up for the cards ability to simply win games. “What are some common ways of getting UU?” You could always take the slow route of using two lands to tap for U. Lotus Petals also work very fine, but the big one is Lion’s Eye Diamond and a tutor effect to cast Diminishing Returns. “When is the appropriate time to cast Diminishing Returns?” The right time to cast Diminishing Returns is when you can’t win off of Ill-Gotten Gains or if your opponent has something that will disrupt you. Another time to cast Diminishing Returns is when your opponent plays graveyard hate. “Doesn’t removing ten cards hurt?” Well, define “hurt.” The deck is very dense with threats that removing ten cards often doesn’t hurt unless you are terribly unlucky and remove all Burning Wishes, both Tendrils of Agony, and the Empty the Warrens.

Ill-Gotten Gains is a card that is so terribly easy to play I wonder how people mess it up. The key to playing Ill-Gotten Gains is being able to create up to six mana and having a tutor effect. But what are your prime targets? The most optimal targets for Ill-Gotten Gains are two Lion’s Eye Diamond and Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish. Against what decks is Ill-Gotten Gains better than Diminishing Returns? Goblins and non-blue decks. You see Stifle and cards like free counters (Daze, Force of Will) can be very troublesome if your opponent recurs them.

The win conditions for The EPIC Storm are pretty simple: Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens. When casting Tendrils of Agony you will need a storm count of ten and for Empty the Warrens on turn one you will need a storm count of five without blockers six with blockers per turn.

Playing the Deck
Playing The EPIC Storm may not be as easy as it seems; get to ten spells and win, right? No. The EPIC Storm is much more difficult to play; because of this I will walk you through a few games. Keep in mind the two sample games are completely random hands.

Opening hand one (on the play):
Cabal Pit
City of Brass
Rite of Flame
Chrome Mox
Burning Wish
Infernal Tutor
Empty the Warrens

Turn One: Cabal Pit, Chrome Mox (Imprinting: Empty the Warrens). Tap both mana sources Infernal Tutor revealing Rite of Flame.
Turn Two: [Draw: Lotus Petal] City of Brass. Play Lotus Petal, Tap Chrome Mox play Rite of Flame one then play Rite of Flame two(RRRR), cast Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns(RR). Tap City of Brass, sacrifice Lotus Petal (RRUU untapped Cabal Pit) Cast Diminishing Returns.
Removing ten from the game:
City of Brass
Gemstone Mine
Tendrils of Agony
Tomb of Urami
Xantid Swarm
Burning Wish
Cabal Ritual
Brainstorm
Forbidden Orchard
Infernal Tutor

Drawing seven:
Gemstone Mine
Xantid Swarm
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Plunge Into Darkness
Rite of Flame
Chrome Mox

Play Chrome Mox (Imprinting: Rite of Flame), play Lion’s Eye Diamond, play Lion’s Eye Diamond. Tap Cabal Pit, tap Chrome Mox; cast Plunge into Darkness in response sacrifice both Lion’s Eye Diamond (RRRBBB) (Your life total is currently seventeen) [Pay sixteen life with Plunge into Darkness]
Plunge into Darkness cards:
3x Brainstorm
3x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
2x Dark Ritual
2x Plunge into Darkness
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Burning Wish
Cabal Ritual
Diminishing Returns
[Selecting: Burning Wish, Removing: The rest]
Casting Burning Wish-> (RBBB) Tendrils of Agony for twenty two.

Opening hand two (on the Draw):
Cabal Pit
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Empty the Warrens
Lotus Petal
[Draw: Brainstorm]
Turn one: Cabal Pit, Lotus Petal; sacrifice Lotus Petal, Brainstorm (Lotus Petal, Tendrils of Agony and Diminishing Returns) (Putting back Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens). Play Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal then Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Cabal Ritual off of Cabal Pit. (BBBBB possible UU) Cast Diminishing Returns
Removing ten from the game:
Tendrils of Agony
Cabal Ritual
Xantid Swarm
Forbidden Orchard
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Infernal Tutor
Chrome Mox
Chrome Mox
Burning Wish
City of Brass

Drawing seven:
Plunge into Darkness
Plunge into Darkness
Plunge into Darkness
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

Play Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual (BBBBBB), If you so choose cast Plunge into Darkness; Tendrils of Agony for twenty two, twenty four, or twenty six.

Match-ups against “The Big Three”

Threshold/Gro (45%-55%) Dependant on the list and Player.
Key Factors:
- Do I have Xantid Swarm? If so play it as quickly as possible.
- Try and win as fast as possible.
- Does my hand have a Tendrils or Warrens?
- How am I winning? Am I using Diminishing Returns or Ill-Gotten Gains? Am I using Empty the Warrens or Tendrils?
- Do I have the double Tendrils option?
- How many turns do I have left?
- Keep in mind what Meddling Mage is chanting.
- Do they play a singleton Engineered Explosives?
- Do they play Stifle?
- Lastly, this is the most important question; can you read a bluff? Reading your opponent is HUGE when trying to figure if you’re brave enough to win turns one–two.

Sideboarding
-3 Plunge into Darkness
-3 Cabal Ritual
+2 Empty the Warrens
+4 Dark Condifant

Solidarity (50%)
Key Factors
- Do I have Xantid Swarm? If so play it as quickly as possible.
- Try and win as fast as possible.
- Win before they get three islands.
- Do they have mana for Remand?
- Don’t be afraid to be aggressive. In this match-up you can afford to be since they don’t have Daze or Counterspell.

Sideboarding
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Diminishing Returns
+2 Empty the Warrens

Goblins (70%)
Key Factors
- Aim to keep a hand with more acceleration than tutors.
- If your hand generally has more than one piece of protection (Swarm) mulligan.
- Try and win as fast as possible
- If keeping a one land hand, be hesitant to play that land unless combo-ing out that turn.
- Chrome Mox is pretty good in this match-up as an unkillable mana source that dodges wasteland and port.

Sideboarding
-4 Xantid Swarm
+2 Empty the Warrens
+1 Dark Confidant
+1 Shattering Spree

Here are major tournament reports that should help you:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=114411&postcount=1 Bryant Cook's (Wastedlife) 1st place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=109979&postcount=393 Florian Fischer's(Flod0) 1st place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=103633&postcount=1 Brandon Adams's (Emildn) 4th place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=111308&postcount=1 Bryant Cook's (Wastedlife) 15th place finish
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=111881&postcount=1 Jesse Krieger's (Krieger) 16th place finish

Here are articles that include The EPIC Storm:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13782.html By Chris Coppola

Here are podcasts that include The EPIC Storm:
http://feed.teamicbm.com/ By I@n Degraff interviews me

All in all The EPIC Storm is a very powerful storm based, up and coming deck that you should get your hands on. With the current Metagame the way it is, The EPIC Storm is a great foil while being blast to play. Hope you enjoyed the article and would like to hear your thoughts.

Citrus-God

11-11-2006, 11:47 PM

Nice... It's imporved a whole lot. I expect more flexible and progressive players to pick this up and play it. It's a very good deck, and can easily benefit good players who make good plays. Only luck this deck relies on are your draws and your hand. Hardly anymore drawing from there (Outside of Diminishing Returns).

It's nice to see Helm being cut. It forced through so many aggressive mulligans, I hated it. I mean, the whole deck was pretty much built around it back then.

Also, IGGy-Pop, IMO is horrible. This deck can do what that does better, and faster, and hardly affected by hate versus Control. Reasons? This deck actually doesnt roll over to Meddling Mage.

My message here.... pick up this deck and play it. Seriously... it's a good deck.

My Name Is Scott

11-11-2006, 11:51 PM

Also, IGGy-Pop, IMO is horrible. This deck can do what that does better, and faster, and hardly affected by hate versus Control. Reasons? This deck actually doesnt roll over to Meddling Mage.
Singleton IGG in tendrils wins you alot of games you shouldn't.

Citrus-God

11-12-2006, 04:17 PM

Singleton IGG in tendrils wins you alot of games you shouldn't.

... I meant the deck. I refer to IGG as Ill-Gotten-Gains, and IGGy-Pop as the deck.

Anyways, yes, the Single IGG can win tons of games versus aggro, and sometimes versus Control without protection. It's the closest card to Yawgmoth's Will in this format, so it isnt truely terrible.

Bane of the Living

11-13-2006, 06:51 PM

Threshold (50%)
The key to winning this match-up is your opening hand. Make sure to keep a decent/strong hand, because you have to decide if you're going for the throat or drag it out until the long run. Building up therapies by using Infernal or using/flashing back and Burning Wish is another way to safely go off. If you can try and bait counterspells, using Burning Wish when you have no storm count is another safe way. Because they either use a counterspell or you get Tendrils. If they don't have a clock feel free to go for the long run, but remember don't wait too long.

SIDEBOARDING
+1 Grapeshot
+2 Defense Grid
+1 Empty the Warrens
- 4 Trinket Mage

How could you possibly go 50/50 with thresh when Nausea and Iggy Pop have a terrible matchup? There's nothing that makes this better for you, you dont even have tha nasty maindecked Leylines.

emidln

11-13-2006, 08:15 PM

How could you possibly go 50/50 with thresh when Nausea and Iggy Pop have a terrible matchup? There's nothing that makes this better for you, you dont even have tha nasty maindecked Leylines.

Burning Wish, easier access to mana, and multiple win conditions/un-counterable removal MD.

Bane of the Living

11-13-2006, 08:56 PM

xsockmonkeyx

11-13-2006, 09:39 PM

Why is Trinket Mage played over Fabricate? Is it the 2x Cabal Therapy + chump blockage? You could always stick a Fabricate in the SB to wish for, but maybe not if your looking to maintain mana while building storm.

Jaynel

11-13-2006, 10:05 PM

Fabricate won't get anything that Mage doesn't, so a pair of legs seems like a good bonus if you need to whittle down life a few points before going off. Flashing back Therapy is also good, I guess.

Edit - Fabricate finds Defense Grid in games 2 and 3, actually.

Bryant Cook

11-13-2006, 10:07 PM

Nausea plays Burning Wish and has Grapeshot and Promise of Power in the sideboard as alt win.

Iggy has uncounterable removal md (WIPE AWAY) and main deck Leyline. Some of them main deck Defense Grid and most of them sideboard Swarm.

Like I said this deck more or less just mashes the two together. How could it get better results just because it plays 3 Xantids and 2 Therapies?

Nausea also relies on Helm of Awakening. Case and point?

Iggy has a 3cc uncounterable, double blue, bounce spell congratulations. Wipe away is just bad; in fact main deck bounce is just bad. Burning Wish serves the purpose of bounce while being a threat. Burning Wish is a threat/answer/win condition all in one which is greater than a bounce spell. How is Burning Wish worse than a 3cc bounce spell, that doesn't dramatically increase any match-ups? Leyline of the Void is horrible; it doesn't win you the game, doesn't improve your position while in comboing and certainly doesn't protect you from hate/counter magic. Xantid Swarm is infinitely better than Leyline of the Void. The fact that Xantid Swarm protects, automatically makes it better than leyline. I understand after you cast Ill-Gotten Gains and if it resolves you'll be in a winning position, but if it resolves you were probably going to win anyway.

The Threshold match-up also gets better post SB for both decks as most match-ups do your point? That was highly irrelevant.
I don't really see this deck as Nausea and IGG crammed together it's separated itself enough from both to be its own. You could say the same thing for Grim Long and Pitch Long in Vintage but just because they share the same goal and cards doesn't mean one came from the other.

It's not just 3 Xantid Swarm and 2 Cabal therapy that makes the Threshold match-up better than IGGy Pop's. Yes, those are key factors it's also Burning Wish's versatility, Grapeshot as an uncounterable way to kill mage. Grapeshot also goes to the dome in appropriate situations. Empty the Warrens as a way around Meddling Mage and True Believer, not to mention its 4 storm less on turn 1 to win turn 3. Really, the deck can ignore Meddling Mage's existence and just win. Post SB the deck gains Defense Grid also to make the Threshold match-up greater.

What is fabricate going to grab that Trinket Mage can't? I understand where your coming from, but Mage already grabs everything that fabricate could. But Trinket Mage grabs everything already while serving as a beater/blocker/tutor in some situations. Trinket Mage believe it or not increases the Threshold match-up as well making Mages sit on defense.

xsockmonkeyx

11-13-2006, 10:08 PM

Edit - Fabricate finds Defense Grid in games 2 and 3, actually.

Yeah, this is why I brought it up. I probably should have mentioned that :frown:

Lego

11-14-2006, 12:53 AM

Thresh can play Mage naming Tendrils of Agony, and then counter Burning Wish or the bounce if need be. Against TES, they need two Mages.

Eldariel

11-14-2006, 06:08 AM

Thresh can play Mage naming Tendrils of Agony, and then counter Burning Wish or the bounce if need be. Against TES, they need two Mages.

Two mages AND counters for Wishes through Xantid Swarm and Therapy (and post-board, through Defense Grid, and possibly a Mage for Empty the Warrens too). The Grapeshots are in the MD. And they can STILL die to Trinket Mage-beats after that if their draw is sufficiently creature-poor.

Daze

11-14-2006, 08:06 AM

The main reason for the better matchup are in fact the Xantids because they just kill ALL counters (so Swarm > Grid, if you aren't facing STP or Bolts). Still the Trinket Mage seems somehow out of place.

Trinket Mage- It fetches Lion's Eye Diamond to replace itself or add mana, while boosting the storm count 2. It is also used frequently to grab lotus petal to fix mana or generate Storm.

Fetching LED to replace itself requires you to have 5 mana and a Tutor/Wish in order to go off the same turn. Getting the mana of your choice by paying 2 also isn't that great. Maybe i miss the point and the Mage is that good because he also beats for 2, chumblocks and is and sacrifice-outlet for Therapy, but isn't beating and cumpblocking somehow off the aim of the deck? We want to combo off asap, don't we? I haven't been testing the deck long enough to really know, but it seemed to me as if Mage would not really belong into the deck; even more so since Helm is gone.

The rest of the deck seems quite solid; especially because you have 3 MD solutions for Mage (I added Grapeshot to my Nausea MD, but it's somehow hard to find it if you need it :-().
As for the reliance on Iggy/Helm, both Nausea and Iggy can just save mana and cast double Tendrils; Nausea has even more options because it can go off Iggy style (e.g. 2 LED + Wish/Tutor), go for double-Tendrils and go for Helm + eggs. I have been experimenting with combodecks quite a lot recently; this one seems to sacrifice much speed for more consistancy. Ofent you will go Iggy style or you won't get enough Storm because there is no carddraw and you wish for something like Empty the Warrens. I don't say this is bad, because those Tokens often just go for the win, but still I don't like Chrome Mox and Trinket Mage- they just don't seem to fit into the concept of a combodeck.

tsabo_tavoc

11-14-2006, 09:25 AM

First, I must confess I am a beginner to Storm-based decks. Hence, my practises now is basically on the base of no disruptions.
My experience is that:
1.Trinket Mage is bad. Most of the time it is unplayable; on the few times I can play it out I have already LEDs in my hand, and it just compensates my mana and add my storm counts by 2, being mediocore.
2.I have never used my maindeck Diminishing Returns, for it is so LED-reliant, not to mention draw it open hand sucks.
3.The deck needs tutors badly, and Plunge into Darkness is great, maybe some Tainted Pact?

Bryant Cook

11-14-2006, 03:10 PM

The main reason for the better matchup are in fact the Xantids because they just kill ALL counters (so Swarm > Grid, if you aren't facing STP or Bolts). Still the Trinket Mage seems somehow out of place.

Fetching LED to replace itself requires you to have 5 mana and a Tutor/Wish in order to go off the same turn. Getting the mana of your choice by paying 2 also isn't that great. Maybe i miss the point and the Mage is that good because he also beats for 2, chumblocks and is and sacrifice-outlet for Therapy, but isn't beating and cumpblocking somehow off the aim of the deck? We want to combo off asap, don't we? I haven't been testing the deck long enough to really know, but it seemed to me as if Mage would not really belong into the deck; even more so since Helm is gone.

The rest of the deck seems quite solid; especially because you have 3 MD solutions for Mage (I added Grapeshot to my Nausea MD, but it's somehow hard to find it if you need it :-().
As for the reliance on Iggy/Helm, both Nausea and Iggy can just save mana and cast double Tendrils; Nausea has even more options because it can go off Iggy style (e.g. 2 LED + Wish/Tutor), go for double-Tendrils and go for Helm + eggs. I have been experimenting with combodecks quite a lot recently; this one seems to sacrifice much speed for more consistancy. Ofent you will go Iggy style or you won't get enough Storm because there is no carddraw and you wish for something like Empty the Warrens. I don't say this is bad, because those Tokens often just go for the win, but still I don't like Chrome Mox and Trinket Mage- they just don't seem to fit into the concept of a combodeck.

Let's be perfectly honest here, is it really that hard to gain 5 mana in a deck with 15 Ritual effects and 12 artifact mana on turns 1 or 2? It is very likely such as in the demonstration hand in the opening post. I understand that you may not like it; it’s a card you grow to like in my opinion. Mage is everything you mentioned but that card alone wins you match-ups you shouldn't win. Against decks with Chalice that extra 2 damage here and there counts, against Threshold you either have a lot of balls and win fast or you drag the game out and win carefully. Sometimes you are forced to drag the game out and that there is where Trinket Mage shines. Mage is often used as a set-up card, I think of it as transferring mana between turns in a way (That horrible onslaught enchantment comes to mind). Much speed? This deck's average kill is turn 2, how is that sacrificing much speed? Seems fairly fast to me, maybe I'm wrong. As for consistency, I prefer a consistent deck over explosive and inconsistency. Don't know if you know this but TES can also go off "IGGy Style" with Burning wish for Ill-Gotten Gains over and over again. As for the concept of a combo deck it's all perspective and can't truly have a correct answer so I'll leave you with what you believe.

Maindeck Diminishing Returns is crazy, the reason it is in here over a second Ill-Gotten Gains is that it dodges Meddling Mage, dodges grave hate, and if you somehow manage to fizzle you still have a full hand. It's a Time Twister what’s not to like? Yes, TES needs tutors it is tutor based combo which is why there are 11 tutors not including Trinket Mage. Tainted Pact just won't work there are simply too many 3-4's in the deck for it to be accessible, the deck would have to be sculpted around it and it would change the deck's style.

xsockmonkeyx

11-14-2006, 04:12 PM

Bryant Cook

11-14-2006, 04:16 PM

You could try -4 Trinket Mage + 4 Fabricate and 1 main deck Defense Grid. This would shore up the game 1 against Thresh/Control somewhat. It could be nice to play Fabricate and they let that resolve (because they think you are going for LED) and you can grab the grid. Your Fabricate target can become a "must counter" instead of an enabler.

They'll counter the Grid, if they let fabricate resolve. So it's 5 mana drag out a counterspell and you are 2 for 1'd. Fabricate just doesn't belong, and defense grid isn't needed madindeck with Xantid Swarm is generally one or the other.

xsockmonkeyx

11-14-2006, 04:48 PM

They'll counter the Grid, if they let fabricate resolve. So it's 5 mana drag out a counterspell and you are 2 for 1'd. Fabricate just doesn't belong, and defense grid isn't needed madindeck with Xantid Swarm is generally one or the other.

Granted, but its Defense Grid +4 fabricate would give you another tutorable semi-answer to a big problem(in addition to therapy). MD defense grid is not plan "A" but its nice to have a plan "B" which only takes up 1 slot. Also, Xantid Swarm isnt always going to be online yet(summon sickness) and you may want to go off now instead of later. XS is somewhat easily answered due to creature status and its attacking clause.

With all due respect, how does Fabricate "just not belong" ? It adds the same storm count, the same mana replacement trick with LED and has the exact same CC. Its not that radical of a change and offers some flexibility (maybe). The Trinket Mage offers you maybe 1 or 2 extra storm copies in terms of what it can do with its legs. If you really have a problem building a lethal storm then you could justfiy the Trinket Mage.

Also, why no Cabal Therapy/Duress to wish for?

emidln

11-14-2006, 04:55 PM

The "creature status" of Xantid Swarm makes is harder to answer for some decks believe it or not. This forces them to keep hands with dead cards against you when you may or may not have the swarm. In a deck with very few actual threats to us like Threshold, this is huge. Against other decks, like Solidarity, it doesn't matter because they bounce it or counter it anyway, just like defense grid. Additionally, Defense Grid is something that many random control decks will be boarding hate for because they see we play with a lot of artifacts.

Fabricate costs 5 mana plus whatever you want to cast. This is bad. In fact, this is terrible. How are you going to randomly come up with 5 mana without busting a whole bunch of resources that you need to combo? Legacy Combo, with very few exceptions, is a one-trick pony. If we expend the resources to Tutor up and something via Wish -> Fabricate then we will probably lose to Solidarity anyway. It would be better in such a situation to wish for Cabal Therapy or Duress, as you are at least not Time Walking them several turns in the process.

xsockmonkeyx

11-14-2006, 04:59 PM

Fabricate costs 5 mana plus whatever you want to cast.

I assume you mean Wishing for a Fabricate, no? I dont advocate that either in retrospect.

emidln

11-14-2006, 05:01 PM

I assume you mean Wishing for a Fabricate, no? I dont advocate that either in retrospect.

Fine. MD Therapy is better than Fabricate. Therapy naming FoW is infy times better than Fabricate -> Anything. Point remains that Fabricate is bad.

xsockmonkeyx

11-14-2006, 05:05 PM

Fine. MD Therapy is better than Fabricate. Therapy naming FoW is infy times better than Fabricate -> Anything. Point remains that Fabricate is bad.

Yes, but you are already going Trinket Mage -> Anything. Thereby, Trinket Mage is also bad.

emidln

11-14-2006, 05:18 PM

Yes, but you are already going Trinket Mage -> Anything. Thereby, Trinket Mage is also bad.

Trinket Mage serves a different purpose. I'm still curious as to why you would suggest a card like Fabricate to replace a card like Trinket Mage that does something entirely different. Anyway, I'll bite, because I'm bored.

Trinket Mage actually has three purposes against Control:

(1) Tutor for more storm enablers/mana fixers
(2) Quick Beats
(3) Meddling Mage Control

Against a deck such as UGW Threshold, they will keep a Meddling Mage + Filtering Hand if they can get down turn 2 Mage. In fact, they will keep relatively weak hands believing that Mage is actually the answer to their problems. Trinket Mage severely punishes them for this.

The thing is, Threshold can't actually stop your Tendrils until they find a real creature. Until that point, you are chipping away at their life total each turn with Trinket Mage, which will never ever trade with a Meddling Mage, effectively casting a Tendrils with 0 storm each turn. This lets you sculpt in an effort to remove Mage on Tendrils or just Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens anyway. Trinket Mage taking 4-10 points helps in this effort significantly.

Here, Therapy does nothing against Mage. In fact, it's weaker without running our own Mages to sacrifice. That takes away from the utility. The cards are even played at different times. You would play Therapy the turn that you go off to know if you can and remove any obstacles like FoW or Orim's Chant. You would play Trinket Mage to tutor up things and provide an alternate win condition (usually by making more red mana with which you can play Empty the Warrens).

xsockmonkeyx

11-14-2006, 05:43 PM

Actually I was curious as well, so I was playing Devil's Advocate. Now we have a better explaination of the Trinket Mage, and other aspects of the deck, no?

legacyplayer0

11-14-2006, 07:01 PM

Alfred

11-15-2006, 05:11 PM

Pyrite spellbomb seems like a nice 1 of as a Trinket Mage target. I don't know if it's necessary to have another answer to Meddling Mage, but if you do choose to run it, it would only take up one spot, and even if you draw it when you don't need it, it can still be played and replaced for 2 mana.

Wouldn't Engineered Explosives be an even better Mage target than Spellbomb? With a 5 color manabase, it would seem to me to be the perfect answer to Threshold's cheap creaturebase.

I don't think there's a reason NOT to run a singleton EE in the deck, because it's damn versatile.

Other than that, this is a pretty awesome deck WL!

EDIT: Also, I don't know if this is the right way to fight Threshold, but Tormod's Crypt can also be fetched with it, perhaps out of the board? I think that maybe EE is more versatile, but obviously Crypt could also be a nice thing to test out.

Bryant Cook

11-15-2006, 05:33 PM

Wouldn't Engineered Explosives be an even better Mage target than Spellbomb? With a 5 color manabase, it would seem to me to be the perfect answer to Threshold's cheap creaturebase.

I don't think there's a reason NOT to run a singleton EE in the deck, because it's damn versatile.

Other than that, this is a pretty awesome deck WL!

EDIT: Also, I don't know if this is the right way to fight Threshold, but Tormod's Crypt can also be fetched with it, perhaps out of the board? I think that maybe EE is more versatile, but obviously Crypt could also be a nice thing to test out.

I've tried both Engineered Explosives and Tormod's in the sideboard, the problem with EE is that it's very mana intensive and in a way unneeded. The deck has effectively 9 ways around Meddling Mage, I think the 10th would be overkill. As for Pyrite Spellbomb I haven't tested it but it seems unnessesary and a dead card in the opening hand being a worse Chromatic Sphere. I'm not trying to put a damper on the party but it also goes with what I said above with 10 being too many, especially since the others are more versitile.
Whats WL?

Also I should let people in on the techy change I made maindeck, or atleast before Eldariel tells people about our testing. I put an Empty the Warrens maindeck over a Trinket Mage, and well the card wins games.

Eldariel

11-15-2006, 05:46 PM

Anyhow, as I said in the testing games, I feel like Undiscovered Paradise might be the right land in the place of Forbidden Orchard. You don't have too many lands overall, so having a single Paradise that you'd have to play over each turn doesn't really hurt your land development at all and it lacks the nasty downside of giving tokens which might actually matter (especially with Empty the Warrens and opposing equipment).

Also, do you really find you need Cabal Pit against Threshold? It seems like, with your multitude of win conditions, one or two Mages don't really appear too much of a threat, at worst they can name Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor. Then again, losing tutors makes some hands worse. I guess my point is, what's your personal experience? How often do you find you need Cabal Pit to rid of the Mages? What about how often do you find, you'd rather have other colours of mana?

Alfred

11-15-2006, 05:52 PM

Whats WL?

You.

Also, Engineered Explosives answers any permanent up to 3cc though, so I could see it being useful to stop non-creature roadblocks.

Jaynel

11-15-2006, 05:57 PM

Or any roadblocks if you need to beat down with Magi.

Bryant Cook

11-15-2006, 06:06 PM

You.

Also, Engineered Explosives answers any permanent up to 3cc though, so I could see it being useful to stop non-creature roadblocks.

Theres very few non-creature road blocks that EE would solve over Burning Wish, the main problem I have with EE is it doesn't effectively stop Chalice of the Void. If your opponent cast 1st turn Chalice 0 what do you do? Trinket Mage up EE no longer has relevance which is why it was cut from the SB for Rebuild. I'm aware that the deck has no answer's coming from Trinket Mage, but no answers is better than playing a maindeck dead card. This arguement is why I don't believe in maindeck bounce.

It's purpose is rarely used for it's slot in the deck and it horrible to see in your oppening hand/mid-combo(off of Diminishing Returns). The deck is built so that maindeck bounce isn't needed with Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens. As for sideboard EE, I'd simply rather have Rebuild to take care of Trinisphere, Chalice and other troublesome artifacts all at once.

Citrus-God

11-15-2006, 07:16 PM

Decks that run Chalice outside of Faerie Stompy are usually very slow. You sit there and build up your mana base and 2-3cc Ritual effects and then you go off. That's only 2-3 turns from the 1st Chalice being played, as this deck is very fast.

emidln

11-16-2006, 11:30 AM

Theres very few non-creature road blocks that EE would solve over Burning Wish, the main problem I have with EE is it doesn't effectively stop Chalice of the Void. If your opponent cast 1st turn Chalice 0 what do you do? Trinket Mage up EE no longer has relevance which is why it was cut from the SB for Rebuild. I'm aware that the deck has no answer's coming from Trinket Mage, but no answers is better than playing a maindeck dead card.

Obviously you play lands that tap for colorless. Then you use Trinket Mage to tutor up EE and cast EE for 1 with colorless mana then tap 2 to kill Chalice. Do the Stax players always have to expain how to beat themselves around here? ;)

Bryant Cook

11-16-2006, 08:10 PM

Colorless lands in a 5 color deck just arn't viable. Even if it was a joke, so you found a way around chalice at 0 and EE. But does that make it any more playable in TES? I don't think so. If anyone sees otherwise I'd like to hear why, because Burning Wish is everything EE is but better and a threat.

rsaunder

11-17-2006, 10:18 PM

I suppose you could get some utility out of the colorless land. Quicksand leaps to mind for goblins, although that's hardly a problem matchup. You've considered all of the 2-mana lands already, I suppose. They seem like the best choice, but still subpar. I can't think of any better colorless lands off the top of my head right now, although I'm sure there's something.

I guess I'm with Anti-American on this, that it's best just to sit on what you've got and wait untill you can combo off.

EDIT: How about archeological dig, boseju who shelters all, or academy ruins?

Citrus-God

11-18-2006, 03:39 AM

EDIT: How about archeological dig, boseju who shelters all, or academy ruins?

Some time ago, I had a build which was more oriented towards Second Sunrise and ran Chromatic Spheres and Stars. What I did was use Helm, played a bunch or Chromatic Stars and Spheres, played something like Seethign Song, converted the mana, and then won. I was very consistent and won turn 2 consistently, but suffered to Chalice and Tormod's Crypt.

Bane of the Living

11-18-2006, 08:32 AM

Nausea also relies on Helm of Awakening. Case and point?

Relies is a harsh term, it wants. Ive won countless games without helm.

Iggy has a 3cc uncounterable, double blue, bounce spell congratulations. Wipe away is just bad; in fact main deck bounce is just bad.

Wipe Away is fucking amazing, and if you werent too thick headed you'd notice its the spell that answers all the problems being discussed in the thread. The only reason you cant support the double blue cost is because you insist on playing all five magical gathering colors. Dont blame the card, blame yourself. You're wastedlife.

Burning Wish serves the purpose of bounce while being a threat. Burning Wish is a threat/answer/win condition all in one which is greater than a bounce spell.

NO it doesn't. Burning Wish serves the purpose of bounce OR a threat. Its a threat OR an answer OR a win condition. I know your point is that its a better utility spell than Wipe Away and I cant argue with that, nor was I suggesting to cut wish. But you cant keep saying its what will pull you through. Your deck has a low card draw/tutor count because it relies on the powerfull effects of Hellbent IT's and Burning Wish. If Meddling Mage names Burning Wish then your really up shit creak. Is Burning Wish better than Wipe Away? Of course, but like I said, I wasnt comparing them.

I understand after you cast Ill-Gotten Gains and if it resolves you'll be in a winning position, but if it resolves you were probably going to win anyway.

You have a single IGG in the maindeck, when its countered its over. Iggy Pop has 7-8 copies when you count Mystical Tutor, which also gives the deck a sweet chance against discard decks. EOT tutor for IGG = GG. The EPIC Storm however, scoops up against discard.

Have you given any thought to Repeal? If you bounce an LED or Mox you generate 2 storm and 1 card draw off 1 blue mana, then you also have more mage answers. That seems better than Trinket Mage.

rsaunder

11-18-2006, 09:05 AM

Some time ago, I had a build which was more oriented towards Second Sunrise and ran Chromatic Spheres and Stars. What I did was use Helm, played a bunch or Chromatic Stars and Spheres, played something like Seethign Song, converted the mana, and then won. I was very consistent and won turn 2 consistently, but suffered to Chalice and Tormod's Crypt. I know that untill very recently, Wastedlife also ran second sunrise. It was never quite Yawg's will to me, but it was OK. Getting back a LED, trinket mage and priest of gix after they'd been culling/intented away was always some good.

Those lands I suggested were more to give colorless mana as well as some other useful effect as well as colorless for EE to handle chalice. Now that I think about it, Tendo Ice Bridge would be superior to all of the rest of those in that regard, but repeal has some real potential in here. I don't see it MB, but I can totally see 3 copies SB as the possibility of hitting your own LED/whatever as well as chalice is pretty sexy. I'd like to test it out a bit first, though.

emidln

11-18-2006, 11:49 AM

Some weak insults and speculation...

If Meddling Mage names Burning Wish then your really up shit creak. Note the availability of Grapeshot and Maindeck Tendrils. If you name Burning Wish with MM, it is probably going to be the wrong play against a deck with Cabal Pit x2, Tendrils MD, and Grapeshot MD.

You have a single IGG in the maindeck, when its countered its over. Iggy Pop has 7-8 copies when you count Mystical Tutor

When your single IGG is countered you have 4 more in the board. Interestingly, you have up to 8 copies of IGG in TES as well. Consider this scenario:

Play IGG (countered)
Play Burning Wish #1 (countered)
Play Burning Wish #2 (countered)
Play Burning Wish #3 (countered)
Play Burning Wish #4 (resolves) finding IGG
Play IGG #2 (resolves) getting IGG, Burning Wish, Burning Wish
Play Burning Wish #5 (resolves) finding IGG
Play IGG #3 (resolves) getting IGG, Burning Wish, Burning Wish
Play Burning Wish #6 (resolves) finding IGG
Play IGG #4 (resolves) finding IGG, Burning Wish, something
Play Burning Wish #7 (resolves) finding IGG
Play IGG #5 (resolves) finding IGG, something, something
Play IGG #6 (resolves) finding something, something, something

Now, you have actually cast IGG 6 times. You have cast Burning Wish 7 times. That is 13 possible times you had an IGG. Don't give me crap about Iggy Pop having more copies than TES. It's a lie.

Bane of the Living

11-18-2006, 12:58 PM

Note the availability of Grapeshot and Maindeck Tendrils. If you name Burning Wish with MM, it is probably going to be the wrong play against a deck with Cabal Pit x2, Tendrils MD, and Grapeshot MD.

When your single IGG is countered you have 4 more in the board. Interestingly, you have up to 8 copies of IGG in TES as well. Consider this scenario:

Play IGG (countered)
Play Burning Wish #1 (countered)
Play Burning Wish #2 (countered)
Play Burning Wish #3 (countered)
Play Burning Wish #4 (resolves) finding IGG
Play IGG #2 (resolves) getting IGG, Burning Wish, Burning Wish
Play Burning Wish #5 (resolves) finding IGG
Play IGG #3 (resolves) getting IGG, Burning Wish, Burning Wish
Play Burning Wish #6 (resolves) finding IGG
Play IGG #4 (resolves) finding IGG, Burning Wish, something
Play Burning Wish #7 (resolves) finding IGG
Play IGG #5 (resolves) finding IGG, something, something
Play IGG #6 (resolves) finding something, something, something

Now, you have actually cast IGG 6 times. You have cast Burning Wish 7 times. That is 13 possible times you had an IGG. Don't give me crap about Iggy Pop having more copies than TES. It's a lie.

There is one Grapeshot and One Tendrils. I would absolutely name Burning Wish against a red storm combo deck. If you've been playing them at all you should realize that. Burning Wish is the MvP. If you shut it down all you need to do is aim Force of Will in the right direction. I suppose the deck could combo a chain into its single Tendrils or Grapeshot but to do so is walking on eggshells. Relying like I said way too heavily for hellbent or a tutor that doesnt get countered.

The senario you discribe with Burning Wish involves 12 mana invested before your fourth Burning Wish resolves. LOL. The deck has some free mana but lets get realistic. How many turns do you plan to do that in? Thats some Werebear mauling ftw right there.

This deck might just need Meditates. I find them very very important to most legacy combo.

troopatroop

11-18-2006, 01:01 PM

Relies is a harsh term, it wants. Ive won countless games without helm.

Wipe Away is fucking amazing, and if you werent too thick headed you'd notice its the spell that answers all the problems being discussed in the thread. The only reason you cant support the double blue cost is because you insist on playing all five magical gathering colors. Dont blame the card, blame yourself. You're wastedlife.

NO it doesn't. Burning Wish serves the purpose of bounce OR a threat. Its a threat OR an answer OR a win condition. I know your point is that its a better utility spell than Wipe Away and I cant argue with that, nor was I suggesting to cut wish. But you cant keep saying its what will pull you through. Your deck has a low card draw/tutor count because it relies on the powerfull effects of Hellbent IT's and Burning Wish. If Meddling Mage names Burning Wish then your really up shit creak. Is Burning Wish better than Wipe Away? Of course, but like I said, I wasnt comparing them.

You have a single IGG in the maindeck, when its countered its over. Iggy Pop has 7-8 copies when you count Mystical Tutor, which also gives the deck a sweet chance against discard decks. EOT tutor for IGG = GG. The EPIC Storm however, scoops up against discard.

Have you given any thought to Repeal? If you bounce an LED or Mox you generate 2 storm and 1 card draw off 1 blue mana, then you also have more mage answers. That seems better than Trinket Mage.

Even the creator of the deck says that Nausea relies on Helm of Awakening.

Now with Wipe away you didn't really make an argument for the card. You started to, forgot that you need to actually make a coherant statement, and insulted someone you don't know.

As said above, their are answers MD to MM.

Mystical Tutor sure is tech against discard.

Good suggestion on Repeal. I like it.

Mordenkain

11-18-2006, 01:18 PM

Nice deck there WastedLife. Very impressive.
I got a few comments about it.

1) Maybe im just stupid/blind or maybe i havent read it carefully enough, but what are it we are discussing about the deck right now? Fabricate vs. Trinket Mage?

2) Have you given any notice to other 5 color lands than Forbidden Orchard? I mean Forsaken City, Undiscovered Paradise and maybe even Tarnished Citadel seems like some good choises. Perhaps the new one Gemstone Caverns.

3) I dont know, but IMO you relies to much on tutor power to get your win condition. Yeah, you play Burning Wish and Infernal, but Infernal requires hellbent. So you got 6 reliable win conditions. Wish + Tendrils is 6 mana. I may be totally wrong on this, but this seems like an issue to me.

Anyways, it could be nice if you would make a list of current issues that needs a fix. Else, this thread may like a lot others, turn into pointless talking about pointless things.

Im gonna pick this deck up and play. I look forward to any progress!

- Mordenkain, Upcoming player of TES

Bane of the Living

11-18-2006, 02:14 PM

Even the creator of the deck says that Nausea relies on Helm of Awakening.

Now with Wipe away you didn't really make an argument for the card. You started to, forgot that you need to actually make a coherant statement, and insulted someone you don't know.

As said above, their are answers MD to MM.

Mystical Tutor sure is tech against discard.

Good suggestion on Repeal. I like it.

Nausea plays Burning Wish and has Grapeshot and Promise of Power in the sideboard as alt win.

Iggy has uncounterable removal md (WIPE AWAY) and maindeck Leyline. Some of them maindeck Defense Grid and most of them sideboard Swarm.

Like I said this deck more or less just mashes the two together. How could it get better results just because it plays 3 Xantids and 2 Therapies?

There, Im quoting myself for you.
Nausea does not RELY on Helm, where is Roopey? Does he know your saying that? I wasnt trying to make an arguement for Wipe Away. I was mentioning that thats what Iggy has going for it against Threshold as opposed to TES not. It is a powerfull card and Im sure Iggy and Solidarity will prove it to you in upcoming tournaments. The deck could certainly support the card, especially since it plays IT, if it werent for the focus on playing all five colors. And I did not insult wastedlife by calling him wastedlife. Is that coherant enough for you?

EDIT

I forgot he mentioned the addition of maindeck Empty the Warrens, I'll have to give that some more consideration. I suppose the right call w/ Meddling would definitly be Burning Wish if the decks win conditions are too diverse. Just like I said you should name.

Citrus-God

11-18-2006, 02:49 PM

I know that untill very recently, Wastedlife also ran second sunrise. It was never quite Yawg's will to me, but it was OK. Getting back a LED, trinket mage and priest of gix after they'd been culling/intented away was always some good.

It was a modification from his old build actually. I didnt like any creatures in there, period. So I took them out and replaced them with Remands, Duress, and Chromati cantrips.

Bryant Cook

11-18-2006, 09:14 PM

Relies is a harsh term, it wants. Ive won countless games without helm.
Yes, the deck can win without them but how often are you more likely going to lose because you don't have them.

Wipe Away is fucking amazing, and if you werent too thick headed you'd notice its the spell that answers all the problems being discussed in the thread. The only reason you cant support the double blue cost is because you insist on playing all five magical gathering colors. Dont blame the card, blame yourself. You're wastedlife.
Ok, let's me mature about this there's no need to act like a 5 year old. Please give reasons to why you think the card is "Fucking amazing". I can support 1UU after all my lands tap for any color, but why would I want to play it? It's no better than Chain of Vapor and cost 2 more. Not to mention Burning Wish is simply a better card. The EPIC Storm playing all 5 colors has nothing to do with not playing a card that costs 1UU after all I play Diminishing Returns. Wow that was terribly clever, really. Who would've ever thought to call me a wasted life?

NO it doesn't. Burning Wish serves the purpose of bounce OR a threat. Its a threat OR an answer OR a win condition. I know your point is that its a better utility spell than Wipe Away and I cant argue with that, nor was I suggesting to cut wish. But you cant keep saying its what will pull you through. Your deck has a low card draw/tutor count because it relies on the powerfull effects of Hellbent IT's and Burning Wish. If Meddling Mage names Burning Wish then your really up shit creak. Is Burning Wish better than Wipe Away? Of course, but like I said, I wasnt comparing them.
So, we agree that Burning Wish is better than Wipe Away? I'm in no way "Shit up the creek" when a Meddling Mage names Burning Wish. Between Empty the Warrens, Tendrils of Agongy, Grapeshot, 2x Cabal Pit and other tutor effects (Infernal Tutor and Plunge into Darkness) I'm fairly sure I can play around a Meddling Mage.

You have a single IGG in the maindeck, when its countered its over. Iggy Pop has 7-8 copies when you count Mystical Tutor, which also gives the deck a sweet chance against discard decks. EOT tutor for IGG = GG. The EPIC Storm however, scoops up against discard. You said you've played combo right? By no means am I out of the game when an Ill-Gotten Gains get's countered. I do have Burning Wish, Diminishing Returns, Empty the Warrens and well just comboing out without the card. I have a bad game against discard I'll admit it but so doesn't every other Storm based deck. I don't see Solidarity's players going towards Mystical Tutor just because people play Hymn to Tourach. I do not "Scoop" to discard decks, I too play an Ill-Gotten Gains with more ways to find it than Iggy Pop and Nausea. I also play Diminishing Returns to refuel my hand.

Have you given any thought to Repeal? If you bounce an LED or Mox you generate 2 storm and 1 card draw off 1 blue mana, then you also have more mage answers. That seems better than Trinket Mage. I have it's too mana intensive and unneeded. If I was to play a bounce spell it'd be Chain of Vapor. Don't knock Trinket Mage until you've tested the deck. You'll grow to like it if you actually test the deck.

deck might just need Meditates. I find them very very important to most legacy combo.
Meditate is random which is why we don't play draw 4's. If we were to play a draw 4 it'd be Cruel Bargain due to the casting cost. Drawing random cards in deck that needs specific things to win just won't work.

Nice deck there WastedLife. Very impressive.
I got a few comments about it.
1) Maybe im just stupid/blind or maybe i havent read it carefully enough, but what are it we are discussing about the deck right now? Fabricate vs. Trinket Mage?
2) Have you given any notice to other 5 color lands than Forbidden Orchard? I mean Forsaken City, Undiscovered Paradise and maybe even Tarnished Citadel seems like some good choises. Perhaps the new one Gemstone Caverns.
3) I dont know, but IMO you relies to much on tutor power to get your win condition. Yeah, you play Burning Wish and Infernal, but Infernal requires hellbent. So you got 6 reliable win conditions. Wish + Tendrils is 6 mana. I may be totally wrong on this, but this seems like an issue to me.
Anyways, it could be nice if you would make a list of current issues that needs a fix. Else, this thread may like a lot others, turn into pointless talking about pointless things.

Im gonna pick this deck up and play. I look forward to any progress!

- Mordenkain, Upcoming player of TES
1.) We were discussing Mage V.S Fabricate, but Trinket Mage is simply better and more of a threat.
2.) I have considered other lands than Forbidden Orchard. I took the manabase from Grim Long in Vintage and worked it from there, I just grew to like Forbidden Orchard. Forsaken City makes you pitvh a card to untap, card disadvatnge = bad. Tarnished Citadel deals you 3, a token should never deal you 3 if it does you were probably losing anyways. Undiscovered Paradice I just dislike the fact it returns, which may screw with Hellbent and land drops.
3.) The deck is Tutor based so yes it relies on tutors. Becoming Hellbent isn't as hard as people say. I'm sorry but between LED and correctly playing your spells it shouldn't be a problem. The deck has argueably 17 win conditions, 10 Tutors, Tendrils of Agony, Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens and Trinket mage.

There, Im quoting myself for you.
Nausea does not RELY on Helm, where is Roopey? Does he know your saying that? I wasnt trying to make an arguement for Wipe Away. I was mentioning that thats what Iggy has going for it against Threshold as opposed to TES not. It is a powerfull card and Im sure Iggy and Solidarity will prove it to you in upcoming tournaments. The deck could certainly support the card, especially since it plays IT, if it werent for the focus on playing all five colors. And I did not insult wastedlife by calling him wastedlife. Is that coherant enough for you?
I forgot he mentioned the addition of maindeck Empty the Warrens, I'll have to give that some more consideration. I suppose the right call w/ Meddling would definitly be Burning Wish if the decks win conditions are too diverse. Just like I said you should name.
Wipeaway is something that Iggy has over TES? Please, you don't need horrible cards clogging up your deck. I wish you'd understand this, TES DOESN'T NEED BOUNCE! It has ways around Meddling Mage, those being other win conditions. What doesn't Iggy Pop have? Other win conditions therefor it is FORCED to play bad cards like wipeaway. How is the focus playing all 5 colors? I would not make poor card choices just so my deck is 5 color, in deck layout it is actually B/r/u. Xantid Swarm is a black card, accept it. Wow, you ment "Wastedlife" in a demeaning way I could care less just drop the dumb topic. Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony is always the correct first chant.

xsockmonkeyx

11-18-2006, 09:54 PM

Speaking of GrimLong, would Grim Tutor add any consistancy to the deck?

rsaunder

11-18-2006, 10:47 PM

Speaking of GrimLong, would Grim Tutor add any consistancy to the deck?Not really. It's 3 mana for the effect, which is just not good enough. There's no real way to net mana off a grim tutor.

DeathwingZERO

11-19-2006, 08:21 AM

Bryant Cook

11-20-2006, 03:09 PM

Actually as of late, any deck I've seen that's been running Meddling Mage has been also having 4x Stifle between maindeck and SB. So I would personally say that a first call from Meddling Mage should always be Burning Wish.

Keep in mind, the only three decks in the format I bother playing right now are Deadguy (I still love the deck, even though it's not putting up numbers), Solidarity, and IGGy. So in all seriousness, I can fully admit about 3/4 of the blue decks I see (Solidarity, U/G/w Thresh, or Meat Hooks) have Stifle when need be. Burning Wish is indeed the real threat here.

EDIT: Also, how are your Trinket Mages actually getting real damage through with this deck vs Thresh?(I'm actually very curious, not undermining you) Nearly every game I play against Thresh, I either have to deal with Mongoose or Werebear getting thresh'd as fast as turn 3, plus their rediculous amount of control. What's your deterrent to keep that from happening on a regular basis? The build my buddy playtests against me with runs 11 Thresh creatures (4 Bear, 4 Mongoose, 3 Enforcer) and 4 Mage. I'd hardly consider it real damage in that case.

Decks playing 4x Meddling Mage and 4x Stifle are not extremely common. Yes, Threshold can run Mage and Stifle but not all thresh lists run them. Some don't run mage, some don't run stifle and some lists don't run both. My point being that you can't say that Threshold plays those because not all lists do which may cause a variation in testing results. The three decks you posted are horrible examples, Solidarity most lists don't even run Stifle was a wish target, Threshold some do some don't, and Counterslivers are not a metagame concern in my opinion. Not to sound arrogant nor cocky but its numbers aren’t great enough to consider it in a gauntlet yet alone results for a deck.

Against Threshold in the first few opening turns they should be cantripping and/or dropping Meddling Mage if they play it. While they are cantripping or before they start attempt to go off, if they are playing Nimble Mongoose and Werebears with Threshold on turn 3. They are more than likely not very well protected and you should be able to combo off and have to worry about Trinket Mage. While Threshold is cantripping Trinket Mage should be attacking if you played it, because it is a Tendrils of Agony in every swing. It also keeps Meddling Mage just chanting not swinging. If it comes down to Mage on Mage action your Mage is worthless compared to theirs swing. Trinket Mage often lowers your opponent's life total enough for a smaller lethal Tendrils of Agony. This is also assuming you have not drawn Xantid Swarm or Cabal Therapy.

Whit3 Ghost

11-22-2006, 10:50 AM

I tested 6 games against Wastedlife.

Round 1- Me 2-1
Round 2- Him 2-1

The matchup is about 50/50. Its possible to run the Thresh player out of Counters/Blue spells for FOW. You do this by baiting with your Tutors and Therapys, then either going for broke with Tendrils or resolving Wish-> Warrnens.

Empty the Warrens is a beating against Threshold because its an (almost) uncounterable source of recurring damage.

I'm starting to think that Stifle is better against Storm Combo than Mage is...

rsaunder

11-22-2006, 01:44 PM

I'm starting to think that Stifle is better against Storm Combo than Mage is...I'd totally agree with that, save solidarity. Stifle is a mini speedbump for solidarity, whereas mage can be a game breaker.

What version did you play? I'd think the numbers would be different for UGr and UGw.

Whit3 Ghost

11-22-2006, 06:07 PM

DeathwingZERO

11-22-2006, 07:44 PM

UGW, 4 maindeck Mage, 16 cantrip with Predicts. All games were preboard.
UGW vs UGR isn't actually that different. You either have the Counterspells or you don't, although the 16 cantrips make life a little easier.

Stifling fetchlands wins games against Solidarity, btw.

I agree COMPLETELY with the Stifle vs Fetchlands. I played a preboard matchup vs Volt using Meat Hooks with Solidarity, and I got raped 2-8 preboard, and 0-8 after SB. Given, 3 games we played I could have actually gone off without being hindered, but I fizzled after he hit a few crucial spells and I drew into utter garbage (lands, or counterspells) but most of the time, it was turn 1-2 Stifle vs my Fetch's and I just couldn't match him in land count. Mage on the other hand typically just needs you to waste a Cunning Wish on a bounce spell. Either are a hinderance, but Stifle is definitely more of an MVP vs Storm.

I would have to say at this point, anything running Mage + Stifle is typically an autoloss to any Storm based deck, but like Wastedlife says, it's usually uncommon outside of specific metagames. When this deck, Nausea, Solidarity, or IGGy start showing up more often, we'll see the shift in decks like Thresh and some of the other aggro control to accommodate playing those 8 cards between MD and SB. Most can already do it, but don't have the need.

Bryant Cook

11-23-2006, 02:03 PM

I agree COMPLETELY with the Stifle vs Fetchlands. I played a preboard matchup vs Volt using Meat Hooks with Solidarity, and I got raped 2-8 preboard, and 0-8 after SB. Given, 3 games we played I could have actually gone off without being hindered, but I fizzled after he hit a few crucial spells and I drew into utter garbage (lands, or counterspells) but most of the time, it was turn 1-2 Stifle vs my Fetch's and I just couldn't match him in land count. Mage on the other hand typically just needs you to waste a Cunning Wish on a bounce spell. Either are a hinderance, but Stifle is definitely more of an MVP vs Storm.

I would have to say at this point, anything running Mage + Stifle is typically an autoloss to any Storm based deck, but like Wastedlife says, it's usually uncommon outside of specific metagames. When this deck, Nausea, Solidarity, or IGGy start showing up more often, we'll see the shift in decks like Thresh and some of the other aggro control to accommodate playing those 8 cards between MD and SB. Most can already do it, but don't have the need.

I agree with that Stifle is incredibly good against TES, much better than Meddling Mage. But is there a real way to improve on this? I mean we run 3x Xantid Swarm and 2x Cabal Therapy MD with 2x Defense Grid sideboard. Do we want to dilute our deck with more protection? It's a question I've been asking myself. It would make the Threshold/Solidarity match-up better but would make other match-ups worse and it would take away consistency. So… more protection or more consistency? Also is it too early? Since MD stifle isn't that huge. It's only seen in a few decks such as Hanni Fish and Meat hooks, which aren't extremely popular.

Cavius The Great

11-23-2006, 04:02 PM

It's only seen in a few decks such as Hanni Fish and Meat hooks, which aren't extremely popular.

My buddy Eric runs 4 MD'ed Stifles in his UW Angel Stompy Puritans deck and he has been putting up strong numbers with it. It's unfair to say that Hanni Fish and Meathooks are the only decks that run Stifle.

Bryant Cook

11-23-2006, 04:14 PM

My buddy Eric runs 4 MD'ed Stifles in his UW Angel Stompy Puritans deck and he has been putting up strong numbers with it. It's unfair to say that Hanni Fish and Meathooks are the only decks that run Stifle.

Tivadar's version of Angel Stompy fits the suit, but my point wasn't to prove that those were the only two decks that play 4x Stifle between the MD and SB. There's probably a thousand different decks out there that play stifle that we don't know of but does that change the fact they're not a metagame concern? No, my point was to give a few quick examples and explain my point. I'm sorry if I left decks out.

Evil Roopey

11-23-2006, 05:34 PM

noobslayer

11-23-2006, 05:47 PM

Evil Roopey

11-23-2006, 05:57 PM

I don't think your flames combined with a lack of support from statistical numbers is appreciated in this thread. We understand your affinity for your own pet deck, but you must also realize, that there may be better tendril's based combo decks available.

When someone comes up with that deck, I will give them the crown.

BTW, I was just pointing out flaws in his deck and comparing them to Nausea, I hardly count that as flaming.

Bryant Cook

11-23-2006, 06:01 PM

Not that likely if you know what you are doing.

Trinket Mage is really, really bad. If you think that free spells are warranted in fine-tuned storm decks, you really need to just stop doing whatever it is you are doing. There is a reason why you dont just play Ornithopter isn't there? It chumps! YAY!

I don't know why you don't just spend all this time working on another deck rather than just learn how to play Nausea correctly.

You guys think of Helm in the completely wrong light. Helm is like a Ritual, except its a lot better. Generally, Helm "produces" 5-6 mana for the small investment of 2 mana. You were willing to produce 0 mana with the investment of 3 mana. Helm seems better.

1 of Meditate is a lot better than 1 of Diminishing Returns. Meditate is 10x more flexible.

I really like the idea of Repeal. That should be incorporated somehow.

You are running to mana rituals and not enough draw. Sure you have 8 tutor effects, but that is still not enough when you want to win by turn 3.

All in all, the deck wasn't very well thought out or put together.

BTW, Bigger and Badder is bad grammar, it should be Bigger and Worse.

1st off I've played nausea, and the problem with the deck is it plays 11 eggs. You often get hands with 3-4 eggs, landgrant an infernal and something irrelevant. Where you lose because you don't have Helm of Awakening. You will lose more often than not when there is not a Helm in play, it's a fact spending 1 mana to draw a card and change a color of mana with no Helm of Awakening in play when you cantrip into more eggs leaves you with no mana in your pool. Don't say you weren't playing it correctly because I am a competent Storm player and well Nausea can't handle the metagame. It's too unstable and has zero protection.

2.) If you are going to make accusations about Trinket Mage being a bad card back them up. We can push and shove all day but without a logical statement on your half how am I supposed to take you seriously? Prove me wrong on Trinket Mage really; you act as if you HAVE to cast him while in mid-combo which is not the case. He's often used as a set-up card.

3.) I know of Helm of Awakening's capabilities and what it can and can't do no need to preach, how often will Trinket Mage give your opponent mana to do broken things? How often will Trinket Mage lose you the game because you don't have him? Trinket Mage often goes aggro for the few life points needed for a less-er Tendrils against control. Trinket Mage is often counter-bait because after awhile he is a must answer. Why can't you see the light? Helm's "Light" has nothing to do with it adding mana, Seething song often adds 5, actually it ALWAYS adds 5 as well with a cost of 1 more than Helm and doesn't benefit the opponent.

4.) Let's put this in an easy way Meditate is not Burning Wishable, I wanted a Wishable draw card effect and well Diminishing Returns fits the situation. As for the MD Diminishing Returns It draws 7 for one more mana I'll pay one more and Ancestral Recall. I know your counter argument will be the casting cost, but 9 times out of 10 you're getting it off of a tutor and well that more than likely means you used a Lion's Eye Diamond or else you'd go after a different target. Well since you used a Lion's Eye Diamond you will have UUU which means the casting cost no longer matters.

5.) Don't speak of bad grammar, at least mine was intentional. Who are you to judge if a deck is bad or not?

EDIT: Mike Bolmholt stole that crown from you awhile ago. Well we were playing King of the Hill and I punched him in the face.

Evil Roopey

11-23-2006, 06:14 PM

Bryant Cook

11-23-2006, 06:29 PM

Let's try again shall we?

1 ~ To me you played incorrectly because you kept that hand. Failing to mulligan correctly is also a play mistake.

2 ~ 3 Mana set up cards are bad, that is why Grim Tutor isn't played in anyone's Tendrils decks.

3 ~ You are right Seething Song does always produce 5 mana, but Helm doesn't require any colored mana so it can be played on turn 1 off of a City or Tomb, and does cost 1 less. I don't know if you noticed or not but Nausea gets mana shorted sometimes, and I run all around cheaper cards than you: Spoils, Helm, Eggs, etc...How do you expect to not get mana shorted when all your spells cost more?! Is it by running more Rituals so that you don't have any draw power at all?

4 ~ When did people start Wishing for cards in their maindecks?

5 ~ Get it? Get it? Get it? You just don't get it.

1.) So I should keep Mulliganing until I get a helm and no eggs in my hand, with 4 or 5 cards left? It was a quick example, happens a lot why do you think Nausea players left once Iggy came around?

2.) Its much more than just a set-up card, if you read the thread you'd understand that. Why cant you "get it, get it, get it."

3.) Colored mana?!@?!?! Please do not use that as an excuse, this thread is not meant for you to compared TES to Nausea. You play colorless lands which is why you think Helm is amazing try playing 5 color lands, your opinion on Helm will change which may be the reason you CAN'T support a simple card like Seething Song. If Nausea gets mana shorted that’s something you should work on in a different thread, not my problem your deck has a lot of flaws. With 15 Rituals, 12 artifact mana sources and 10 lands I think I can support a few 3cc spells. Draw power isn't needed when you have tutor power; I play 10 tutors not counting Trinket Mage that is more than enough to efficiently win the game.

4.) There's one Maindeck one Sideboard, it's not rocket science.

5.) There's no need to respond to immaturity.

Peter_Rotten

11-23-2006, 06:34 PM

Yes, the deck can win without them [helm] but how often are you more likely going to lose because you don't have them.

Not that likely if you know what you are doing.

Trinket Mage is really, really bad. If you think that free spells are warranted in fine-tuned storm decks, you really need to just stop doing whatever it is you are doing. There is a reason why you dont just play Ornithopter isn't there? It chumps! YAY!

I don't know why you spend all this time working on another deck rather than just learn how to play Nausea correctly.

You guys think of Helm in the completely wrong light. Helm is like a Ritual, except its a lot better. Generally, Helm "produces" 5-6 mana for the small investment of 2 mana. You were willing to produce 0 mana with the investment of 3 mana. Helm seems better.

1 of Meditate is a lot better than 1 of Diminishing Returns. Meditate is 10x more flexible.

I really like the idea of Repeal. That should be incorporated somehow.

You are running to many rituals and not enough draw. Sure you have 8 tutor effects, but that is still not enough when you want to win by turn 3.

All in all, the deck wasn't very well thought out or put together.

BTW, Bigger and Badder is bad grammar, it should be Bigger and Worse.

Are you pointing out bad grammar? Do you know what they say about those in glass houses?

Yes, the deck can win without them [helm] but how often are you more likely going to lose because you don't have them.

Not that likely if you know what you are doing. Sentence Fragment

Trinket Mage is really, really bad.Redundant If you think that free spells are warranted in fine-tuned storm decks, you really need to just stop doing whatever it is you are doing. There is a reason why you dont just play Ornithopter isn't there? It chumps! YAY!

I don't know why you spend all this time working on another deck rather than just learn how to play Nausea correctly. Ouch. I don't even know where to begin. Verb Tense? Faulty parallelism.

You guys think of Helm in the completely wrong light. Helm is like a Ritual, except it's a lot better. Generally, Helm "produces" 5-6 mana for the small investment of 2 mana. You were willing to produce 0 mana with the investment of 3 mana. Helm seems better.

1 of Meditate is a lot better than 1 of Diminishing Returns. Meditate is 10x more flexible.

I really like the idea of Repeal. That should be incorporated somehow.

You are running too many rituals and not enough draw. Sure, you have 8 tutor effects, but that is still not enough when you want to win by turn 3.

All in all, the deck wasn't very well thought out or put together.

BTW, Bigger and Badder is bad grammar, it should be Bigger and Worse. bad - adjective, worse, worst; (Slang) bad-der, bad-dest for 36; noun; adverb... 36. Slang. outstandingly excellent; first-rate: He's a bad man on drums, and the fans love him.

Hmmm, I wonder if slang would be acceptable on an Internet forum discussing Magical cards?

Keep the comments nice. If you want to prove that the deck sucks, do so without implied insults. Leave the grammar correction to those who understand grammar.

Evil Roopey

11-23-2006, 06:47 PM

@ Rotten: Apparently you people don't get sarcasm inside of jokes, but I do apologize for not being an English teacher.

1.) So I should keep Mulliganing until I get a helm and no eggs in my hand, with 4 or 5 cards left? It was a quick example, happens a lot why do you think Nausea players left once Iggy came around?

2.) Its much more than just a set-up card, if you read the thread you'd understand that. Why cant you "get it, get it, get it."

3.) Colored mana?!@?!?! Please do not use that as an excuse, this thread is not meant for you to compared TES to Nausea. You play colorless lands which is why you think Helm is amazing try playing 5 color lands, your opinion on Helm will change which may be the reason you CAN'T support a simple card like Seething Song. If Nausea gets mana shorted that’s something you should work on in a different thread, not my problem your deck has a lot of flaws. With 15 Rituals, 12 artifact mana sources and 10 lands I think I can support a few 3cc spells. Draw power isn't needed when you have tutor power; I play 10 tutors not counting Trinket Mage that is more than enough to efficiently win the game.

4.) There's one Maindeck one Sideboard, it's not rocket science.

5.) There's no need to respond to immaturity.

OK, look, I'm not trying to start a war here or anything, just point out what I think you are doing wrong and tell you why I think that.

Bad hands happen with all decks. It's part of the game, the only reason people find it so "bad" to mulligan with Nausea is because they can't comprehend that having a bad hand in your 7 is very similar to having a no land hand. They are unkeepable. If you didn't know that then you are in fact not a compotent Tendrils-based combo player.

Trinket Mages "other talents" are useless and pointless to the gamestate. When you are winning on turns 2-3, swinging doesn't really come into play. Therapy is cute, but Duress is better in a deck that only plays 4 creatures anyways. So that's an easy answer.

Draw power is nessecary in order to find the tutor effects. Plunge into Darkness is not a tutor.

And the maindeck Returns should be a Meditate. This isn't rocket science, it's common sense.

That, right there, what you said, it was a response.

Bryant Cook

11-23-2006, 07:04 PM

@ Rotten: Apparently you people don't get sarcasm inside of jokes, but I do apologize for not being an English teacher.

OK, look, I'm not trying to start a war here or anything, just point out what I think you are doing wrong and tell you why I think that.

Bad hands happen with all decks. It's part of the game, the only reason people find it so "bad" to mulligan with Nausea is because they can't comprehend that having a bad hand in your 7 is very similar to having a no land hand. They are unkeepable. If you didn't know that then you are in fact not a compotent Tendrils-based combo player.

Trinket Mages "other talents" are useless and pointless to the gamestate. When you are winning on turns 2-3, swinging doesn't really come into play. Therapy is cute, but Duress is better in a deck that only plays 4 creatures anyways. So that's an easy answer.

Draw power is nessecary in order to find the tutor effects. Plunge into Darkness is not a tutor.

And the maindeck Returns should be a Meditate. This isn't rocket science, it's common sense.

That, right there, what you said, it was a response.

How are Trinket Mages "Other Talents" not relevant? Being able to keep Threshold's Mages on bay seems kind of relevant to me. Being able to swing for the 2-4 damage needed to win against discard seems important to me. Being able to tutor up LED for more consistency is relevant; you act as if Trinket mage is only a Grizzly Bear. Swinging does come into play if you were an established combo player you'd of all people know this, against control the game is often dragged out. Trinket Mage is a must answer, if they let Mage chip away at them they will lose.

Therapy vs. Duress once again you didn't give reasons, Can you count? 3x Trinket Mage and 3x Xantid Swarm does not equal 4. Back to kindergarten 3+3=6, 3+1=4, 2+2= 4. Therapy vs. Duress is more of a preference; anyways Therapy names Force of Will 70% of the time, Duress can only grab 1 Force where Therapy can grab more, not to mention you can use it twice.

Draw power is certainly not necessary; I can have it in my opening hand. After all 1/6th of the deck are tutors. Plunge is certainly a tutor, plunge to 18-19 seems like a rather large chunk of Library to me. If you consider Spoils of the Vault a tutor then you're a hypocrite.

Diminishing Returns once again you didn't state your position; I'm starting to notice a theme.

EDIT::Typos

Evil Roopey

11-23-2006, 07:22 PM

How are Trinket Mages "Other Talents" not relevant? Being able to keep Threshold's Mages on bay seems kind of relevant to me. Being able to swing for the 2-4 damage needed to win against discard seems important to me. Being able to tutor up LED for more consistency is relevant; you act as if Trinket mage is only a Grizzly Bear. Swinging does come into play if you were an established combo player you'd of all people know this, against control the game is often dragged out. Trinket Mage is a must answer, if they let Mage chip away at them they will lose.

Therapy vs. Duress once again you didn't give reasons, Can you count? 3x Trinket Mage and 3x Xantid Swarm does not equal 6. Back to kindergarten 3+3=6, 3+1=4, 2+2= 4. Therapy vs. Duress is more of a preference; anyways Therapy names Force of Will 70% of the time, Duress can only grab 1 Force where Therapy can grab more, not to mention you can use it twice.

Draw power is certainly not necessary; I can have it in my opening hand. After all 1/6th of the deck are tutors. Plunge is certainly a tutor, plunge to 18-19 seems like a rather large chunk of Library to me. If you consider Spoils of the Vault a tutor then you're a hypocrite.

Diminishing Returns once again you didn't state your position; I'm starting to notice a theme.

Combo shouldn't want to drag the game out against Threshold. It wants to win as fast as it possibly can. Using 3 mana 2/2 creatures that find a card that produces 3 mana is far worse than playing a 1-2 casting cost something or other that actually does something relevant.

Sorry, I forgot you ran Swarm main, and you are wrong, opinions don't come into play when Therapy can hit NOTHING when Duress will hit something. This makes Duress better. And playing 6 creatures does not advocate Therapies inclusion because the odds of you drawing a therapy and a creature and it actually mattering all in one game are very slim.

You CAN have it in your opening hand. But if you don't, then you have to mulligan. The odds of you not having a tutor in your opening hand are actually more than Nausea drawing 3-4 Egg hands.

Meditate is better because it cost 1 less, can be played at instant speed, doensn't fill Threshold players hands up with more counters, and doesn't get rid of your threshold for Cabal Rituals. All of this and you have to have at least 5-6 mana when casting a Diminishing Returns so that you are able to play a Ritual afterwards, and if you tutored for it that turns into 7-8 mana. This seems highly unlikely without Helm.

Bryant Cook

11-23-2006, 07:42 PM

Combo shouldn't want to drag the game out against Threshold. It wants to win as fast as it possibly can. Using 3 mana 2/2 creatures that find a card that produces 3 mana is far worse than playing a 1-2 casting cost something or other that actually does something relevant.

Sorry, I forgot you ran Swarm main, and you are wrong, opinions don't come into play when Therapy can hit NOTHING when Duress will hit something. This makes Duress better. And playing 6 creatures does not advocate Therapies inclusion because the odds of you drawing a therapy and a creature and it actually mattering all in one game are very slim.

You CAN have it in your opening hand. But if you don't, then you have to mulligan. The odds of you not having a tutor in your opening hand are actually more than Nausea drawing 3-4 Egg hands.

Meditate is better because it cost 1 less, can be played at instant speed, doensn't fill Threshold players hands up with more counters, and doesn't get rid of your threshold for Cabal Rituals. All of this and you have to have at least 5-6 mana when casting a Diminishing Returns so that you are able to play a Ritual afterwards, and if you tutored for it that turns into 7-8 mana. This seems highly unlikely without Helm.

1.) Your absolutely right it, it shouldn’t want to but it happens. That is something you can't control. TES is more prepared for it than Nausea, if Nausea goes into mid to late game it can't win where TES can. What do you have that costs 1-2 and is relevant? An egg? I drew a card but it doesn't increase your position against Threshold. Helm of Awakening? Ok, why not let's make Threshold's spells cost less when Nausea doesn't play protection.

2.) Once again you're wrong, if I have Xantid I don't need Therapy unless I want it to increase storm by two. That's something Duress can't do. If Therapy misses on Force of Will guess what? Doesn't matter I'll be winning that turn. I would play Therapy over Duress if I ran 0 creatures just because it nails 2 Force of Will against control where as if it were Duress they still have a Force.

3.) If I don't have a Tutor in my hand I can always Mulligan, wait until I do draw one, or well use a Returns, Tendrils, Grapeshot or Empty the Warrens. Not having a tutor in your opening hand is not the end of the game. Tutors are generally in your opening hand since your opening hand is 7 or 8 after the draw leaving you with about 50 cards and you play 10 tutors which is a 6th of your deck and a 5th of your deck is left. Your chances are pretty good of drawing one after that if you don't have one.

4.) Meditate costing 1 less is almost irrelevant, TES can generate more mana than Nausea can and more consistently. Being played at instant speed doesn’t matter while you're in mid-combo and Time Walks EOT. The deck plays Xantid Swarm you're better off playing it on your turn because of this. Threshold on Rituals hurts a little but 7 cards makes up for it since TES has more ways of generating mana besides Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual. Once again 7-8 mana doesn't matter the deck creates more mana than Nausea. TES doesn't need to have mana floating; you could play a land, Lotus petal or Chrome Mox that's a possible 18 ways of making mana without mana floating. Helm of Awakening just isn't needed, it was in previous lists but the deck is more consistent and faster without it.

Kronicler

11-24-2006, 02:03 PM

Has any thought been given to Tinder Wall? Seems like it would be great in this deck.

Citrus-God

11-24-2006, 02:26 PM

Bryant Cook

11-24-2006, 02:34 PM

The thing about Rite of Flame and Seething Song are they actully get you off the ground. You can cast multiple "Red Rituals" off of one another where Tinderwall deals with the sideeffect of being green. While Tinderwall has the ability to block with is huge I don't think it is worth a slot over Rite of Flame.
Rite of Flame || Tinderwall || Mana Produced
1 1 2|2
2 2 5|4
3 3 9|6
4 4 14|8
The mana produced off of Rite of Flame does matter in numbers because of the chances of drawing 2 or 3. Often I will Infernal for Rite of Flame as a set-up or in Mid-Combo because it will eventually create more mana than Dark Ritual.

EDIT:: That sucked. Eh, anywho I didn't realize WhiteGhost posted.

Whit3 Ghost

11-24-2006, 03:16 PM

It's all good, you did a better job elaborating then I did.

Bryant Cook

11-24-2006, 09:00 PM

Anybody have any troubles with keeping opening hands? I'm a very unstable Combo player, but I'm trying. This deck is not like Solidarity, where you play a few cantrips to find lands/business spells. Everything is in the opening hand. But sometimes, Infernal Tutor and Plunge can assemble those pieces as well, grabbling mana when you already have more than enough Tutors in hand. Grabbing disruption to protect your combo isnt a bad play either.

Has anyone ever went through this?

Also, how do you play versus Thresh? I heard Empty the Warrens is good. How do you play versus Thresh Game 1?

I play it versus Thresh game 1 like IGGy. I sit back, gather a ton of Ritual effects, and go double Tendrils. If they have Mage down on Tendrils, I'll go B-Wish -> Empty the Warrens.

I want to hear your thoughts on this, because this play might be flawed...

I've been recently testing more and more with different match-ups and have hated Cabal Therapy in my opening hands. Every time I see it I wish it was something better. But I've very hesitant because it helps out the Threshold match-up, but what else helps out the Threshold Match-up? Consistency, to add consistency I've cut Cabal Therapy. But what has been the deck's weak point? Not having a tutor in the opening hand. So I cut 2 Cabal Therapy for 1 Infernal Tutor (Taken from the sideboard) and 1 Plunge into Darkness. If you raise the treat density of the deck the deck will be more consistent and with more threats and more consistency you have better match-ups. The more tutors you have against Threshold the stronger your hand will be, but now you’re asking but don't you have less protection for your threats? Well I didn't want to take away protection without adding some and it came down to main decking one more piece of protection either a Defense Grid or another Xantid Swarm. I choose Xantid Swarm because it leaves a surprise element for Defense Grid post sideboard. But what to cut? The deck is tighter than Virgin Mary. I decided that cutting strong mana sources was out of the question, along with tutors(I consider Trinket Mage a tutor) it came down to Seething Song. Well now there's an empty slot in the sideboard so I decided why not move a Therapy to the SB for Solidarity to ensure a win and not false hope. This solves the no tutor in your opening hand problem.

The Threshold match-up comes down to a few things...
1.) How broken is my hand?
2.) Do I have Xantid Swarm?
3.) When is the fastest possible win?
4.) Do I have Tendrils/Empty the Warrens/Grapeshot (Cards with Storm)?
5.) How many tutors are in my hand and how do I correctly use them?
These are all things you should be asking yourself.

1.) If your hand is broken go for the quick win, if it is not stretch for the long run and prepare for a longer game.
2.) If yes play it turn one on the play. On the draw if you have 2 lands play it on turn 2, if you have it turn 1 on the draw and have Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal play them first no need to throw away a piece of protection on a Force Spike.
3.) This goes along with number 1, if you can win fast do so. If your opponent plays turn 2 Meddling Mage, guess what? Now is your time. Win with Empty the Warrens because they can't deal with it. Whenever Threshold taps out(or enough) is the time to go for it. If they don't they will lose because it becomes a war of attrition, draw go, draw go. Here you play small pieces such as Lotus Petals and Lion's Eye Diamonds. While doing this gather tutors and Storm cards. Because if you have enough tutors and mana sources (Rituals, artifact mana and lands) you will overwhelm them. As for this idea being "Flawed' I disagree building up tutors and mana(Storm Cards if you have them) is not incredibly hard.
4.) If you have a Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens in your opening 7, I'd give it another thought on keeping it if you're going to mulligan. Those 2 cards in your oppenign hand will more than likely win you the game with a lot more ease.
5.) Tutors, tutors, and tutors I can't say it enough the more of these you have the more likely you will win the game against Threshold.

Also opening post was updated to include the most current list.

Kronicler

11-25-2006, 03:18 AM

I'd sooner cut the maindeck grapeshot then the 3rd seething song. In my testing I've found the maindeck grapeshot almost completely unnecessary, even against meddling mage.

Citrus-God

11-25-2006, 03:38 AM

It's not suppose to aim at Mage completely. Sometimes, Grapeshot is just reach for your Empty the Warrens or just to go Grapeshot -> Tendrils can give you some reach with the sotmr count of 7 (Storm of 6 on Grapeshot, 7 on Tendrils). Also, you choose your targets with the new Storm copies, so it can also give you reach while hitting Mage.

Kronicler

11-25-2006, 03:43 AM

Theoretically it is useful... but in my experience of 30 or so games against salvagers, gobos, solidarity, and a bit of thresh I've either imprinted it on chrome mox or wished it was something else.

DeathwingZERO

11-25-2006, 05:57 AM

I'm not so sure if it's come up yet, but I've always loved the addition of Recoup to any storm deck able to use red mana. Have you done any testing with one instance of it maindeck, instead of or in addition to the one in the sideboard?

xsockmonkeyx

11-25-2006, 06:25 AM

@Wastedlife. About your sideboard, why are you running Rebuild instead of something that you could tutor for, like Shatterstorm? Also why cleanfall instead of tranquility, or tranquil domain?

Bryant Cook

11-25-2006, 10:40 PM

I wouldn't cut Grapeshot it is too good to be cut. I don't think the deck will miss 1 Seething Song too much. Grapeshot serves more purposes than Seething song.

I have tested recoup it is too mana intensive to really use it, you will need 14 mana in your mana pool and I'll be able to Consume Spirit them out by then. It's just a win-more card is what it comes down to.

Rebuild is played because of Dumb cards(Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere) and well I don't play Shatterstorm because it will hurt me more than it will hurt them. I will be using too many resources just to kill Chalice while Shattering Spree does the same thing without hurting me. A Rebuild end of turn will more than likely win you games vs. Chalice and dekcs like 5/3 and Stax. Cleanfall = Tranquility with a different name, there's no difference in this deck whatsoever. Tranquil domain is an instant. I know Rebuild is an instant but artifacts are alot more prevalent.

Also opening post updated once again for newer card choices and decklist. It also includes more on Trinket Mage.

xsockmonkeyx

11-25-2006, 11:56 PM

Well, if artifacts are more prevalent then shouldnt you have a tutorable answer for game 1? A 3cc sorcery that kills multiple artifacts would be nice to have for an option. What about Seeds of Innocence? Is the GG in the casting cost + life gain too prohibitive?

xsockmonkeyx

11-26-2006, 12:51 AM

Citrus-God

11-26-2006, 03:14 AM

If we want Artifact kill from the SB, it would have to be Shattering Spree. It does such a better job at killing Chalice ands Trinispheres.

xsockmonkeyx

11-26-2006, 03:56 AM

What about Chalice at x=1?

Kronicler

11-26-2006, 04:15 AM

replicate > chalice. The original copy is countered but the replicated copies are never played and therefore aren't countered. So RR kills a chalice at 1.

Kronicler

11-27-2006, 05:31 PM

What's up everyone. I've been doing a lot of testing with this deck lately and I've really come to love it. I'll probably be taking it to a local tourney a week from this sunday and it will be interesting to see how I do. But onto the results of the tests

I tested against Solidarity, Gobos (with white splash and without), Thresh, and Faerie Stompy. My conclusions were:

1) Drawing the 1 ofs when you want to get hellbent is VERY agrivating, as not only are they almost completely useless but they actually can prevent you from comboing sometimes.

2) Getting threshold for cabal ritual is challenging considering I was going off mostly on turn 2, and without threshold cabal ritual is very weak.

3) Chrome mox is slightly awkward as you rarely want to imprint a piece of accel on it (unless you are short on mana sources... rare but possible). I found my self playing it without imprinting anything on it just to increase the storm count.

4) Xantid Swarms are f*cking amazing.

5) A cheep piece of draw would really be useful.

6) Having Cabal Pit as your only land can be problematic.

In an effort to compensate for some of my problems with the deck I decided to test out careful study instead of trinket mage as well as remove a few maindeck 1 ofs which I rarely used and change 1 cabal pit to a gemstone mine. Careful Study serves many purposes, allowing you to get threshold faster, get rid of cards preventing you from becoming hellbent, and dig for a missing combo piece (tutors, accel, etc.). After some tinkering I came up with this list:

Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm

Spells
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Careful Study
4 Dark Ritual
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Rite of Flame
3 Seething Song
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Lands
1 Cabal Pit
4 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Cave-In
1 Cleanfall
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Rebuild
1 Recoup
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Defense Grid

A couple of cuts are debatable, such as maindeck grapeshot vs the 3rd seething song, but overall I found the changes positive. After testing with the new list against the above mensioned decks I found the deck to not only be more consistent at getting threshold and sculpting your hand but at achieving a high enough storm count to tendrils FTW rather than having to Empty the Warrens. Frankly, I don't think this deck needs cabal pit as 1 MM doesn't really matter (naming tendrils? ETW. Naming something else? Tendrils.) and you should combo before 2 are on the board. Also because (excluding a 1st turn combo) the 8 1st turn plays in the deck do not cost black mana, having an opening hand with only cabal pit can be so frustrating.

So.... yeah.

Kronicler

Bryant Cook

11-27-2006, 08:33 PM

Looks solid. Careful Study vs Trinketmage is debatable, the main thing I have against careful study it is always card disadvantage where Mage is always card advantage. Have you tired using Plunge as set-up card it really makes it so you don't need draw. I agree on pit but I'm afraid to cut one because it is amazing against aggro as well as Mages. Threshold on Cabal Ritual really doesn't matter in my opinion because there are 10 other rituals, yes it is better with Threshold but I wouldn't be overly concerned with it. All in all list looks alright.

Kronicler

11-28-2006, 12:07 AM

You know what, I'm going to disprove Trinket Mage once and for all.

1) It does NOT provide card advantage because in order to cast it before turn three (in all likelihood setting up for a turn 4 win, monumentally slow for TES) you need to burn a piece of acceleration. This means you are using 2 cards and an entire turn to get a single card not much better than the piece of accel you burnt, and certainly worse than the card that trinket mage COULD have been plus the piece of accel.

2) Because this deck almost always requires both red and black mana to combo off, and because we combo so quickly (most of the time with 1 or 2 lands on the field), blue mana is seldom available mid combo meaning trinket mage can become a dead card and sometimes an actual problem if you need to become hellbent.

3) Once on the board, trinket mage does little to no damage. The only time he will even touch an opponent is if not only are you still unable to combo even after he got you an LED (a rare occurrence since we are on turn 3 or 4 by now) but also that your opponent has no blockers. In a format defined by agro the latter situation is rare, but possibly occurring against decks such as burn and solidarity (off the top of my head). In both matches if you haven't gone off by this time you are most likely dead.

Stop being so stubborn and test the deck without trinket mage. Not exploring his slot prevents the deck from evolving, and at this point there is more than enough evidence showing he doesn't deserve his spot. Careful Study is only ONE solution (which does solve a lot of problems), but a different card might be even better in the deck. Look around and test stuff out, and before you know it TES might be in the open forums!

Kronicler

BiscuitVader

11-28-2006, 12:56 AM

I'm going to have to agree with Kronicler about cutting Trinket Mage.
He can randomly help, but most of the time I end up putting him on Chrome Mox, or just discarding him to a LED I drew.

If you go off turn one or two, he is never going to get played.
Off the top of my head, Meditate seems like it would be a good choice for its slot. You can trade an empty hand for four cards with LED, or just draw and win that turn and not care at all about skipping your next turn.

Also, against some random decks in this format, you can just skip a turn and not even care.

That said, I'm sure there is a better card for the deck, we just have to find it.

xsockmonkeyx

11-28-2006, 01:55 AM

Ive been using Grim Tutor in place of Plunge and Trinket Mage. Its been really good as its easier to cast off a ritual and can grab anything. If you've got the cash then I highly recommend them (If not theres always MWS).

Kronicler

11-28-2006, 02:17 AM

Meditate is an idea that has been tossed around here before, and with some merit. I'll test them a bit this weekend but my first feelings are against 'em. As I stated in my anti-trinket mage post, this deck rarely has blue mana mid combo (as 2 colors of mana are already required) which is when meditate is best. Also, I love not being dependant on draw while comboing. Nothing sucks more than fizzling to bad luck.

In terms of Grim Tutor: Yeah, it is an idea, but one of the greatest things about this deck is how cheep it is to build (allowing more players to pick it up and thereby expediting it's evolution), and frankly I don't want to spend that kind of money on 4 cards. If I did, I would play Vintage.

Kronicler

xsockmonkeyx

11-28-2006, 02:43 AM

4 City of Brass - $8
1 Barbarian Ring - .50
1 Cabal Pit .10
4 Gemstone Mine 5.00
4 Xantid Swarm 4.00
1 Defense Grid 2.00
3 Seething Song .60
4 Rite of Flame .80
4 Infernal Tutor 9.00
4 Dark Ritual 1.00
3 Burning Wish 15.00
4 Lion's Eye Diamond 20.00
4 Chrome Mox 40.00
1 Tendrils of Agony 1.00
4 Lotus Petal 5.00
2 Meditate 6.00
4 Cabal Ritual 4.00
1 Empty the Warrens .10
2 Grapeshot .20
1 Ill-Gotten Gains 5.00
Total = 121.80

4 Grim Tutor - $400-600

.: 700 Dollar deck with 75% to 85% of the deck being the tutors. Sideboard is extra.

Citrus-God

11-28-2006, 09:41 AM

xsockmonkeyx

11-28-2006, 11:14 AM

Yeah, well, that was a rough estimate. Some cards will be a little more or less because it was off the top of my head. I just wanted to estimate the cost of the 56 other cards in the deck in comparison to the tutors.

BTW, the list is total, ie, 4 Citys for $8 etc.

rsaunder

11-28-2006, 02:52 PM

You know what, I'm going to disprove Trinket Mage once and for all...
2) Because this deck almost always requires both red and black mana to combo off, and because we combo so quickly (most of the time with 1 or 2 lands on the field), blue mana is seldom available mid combo meaning trinket mage can become a dead card and sometimes an actual problem if you need to become hellbent. That doesn't make any sense.

Trinketmage is never mana disadvantage, gets you the LED to get hellbent and combo with IGG, and with HOA in play is mana advantage.

iOWN

11-28-2006, 03:00 PM

I guess I should bring this over here from the combo discussion thread, since it is kind of off topic there.

The fork plan means you have the combo which is pretty Irrelvant at that point, no? And yes, playing more IGG's makes you more graveyard reliant because in order to play them you'll be using intuition. What does TES not lose to? Graveyard hate. If you make those changes its a hybrid of Iggy Pop and TES which in my opinion seems weaker than one or the other. Since the format is full of graveyard hate I'll pass.

I'm glad to see you're reconsidering Xantid Swarm, you won't regret it.

I for one don't want to be even the slightest bit reliant on my graveyard, because when you use the graveyard more than need be you'll see hate for it and when you actually NEED your graveyard you'll be cut off(By hate). When it comes down to it in my opinion is comes down to how comfortable are you losing to graveyard hate. I for one love Mage and won't cut it until a better card comes out.

On Draw 4's they are generally unreliable when it comes to TES, because at all times TES want's specific cards and draw 4's hardly deliver.

EDIT:: To support Intuiton you would have to add more Ill-Gotten Gains which takes up slots in the deck. Intuition makes you rely on Ill-Gotten Gains and when you rely on Ill-Gotten Gains to make Intuition good. You are relying on your graveyard in a format full of grave hate for Threshold. This just isn't logical to me.

I still don't think that having the IGG's in the deck means you rely on the graveyard. If they have hate sitting on their side of the table, just go off with a Draw4, Tutors + Accel or Diminishing Returns. You never need to use it just because it's there.

If you know the deck you're playing against packs some sort of GY hate, just board out 2 or all Ill-Gotten Gains. That way you won't run into any problems.

I'm still not seeing how Mage > Intuition. Intuition can fetch anything in the deck, Mage just gets LED. Intuition does a better job of getting LED, because it can get three of them instead of one. If you want to get Tendrils with Intuition all you have to do is search for Wish + Wish + Tendrils and fetch it. Intuition just seems like it does everything and more.

Bryant Cook

11-28-2006, 03:01 PM

My deck is worth a bit more but that is irrelevant. My deck is almost all asian'd out once it arrives...

1.) Even if Trinket Mage doesn't gain you card advantage in which it does(Creaturre and card to hand.) Even if you waste a Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Ritual mana on Trinket Mage it's still card replacement; where Careful study can't even do that.

2.) With Lotus Petals and land/on occasion Chrome Mox I don't see blue being very difficult.

3.) You are wrong here, it's not that you are uncapable of winning it's that against control Mage forces through 2 damage at a time being a Tendrils every hit. yes, Threshold is control. Winning during the opportune time is key and Trinket Mage sets this time up. Forcing them to tap out or dig for more counters when they tap out(or enough) is your time to win.

4.) Calling me stubborn doesn't do anything. I have tested other cards in it's slot. I do make in what I believe are optimal deck choices if you disagree, so be it change the slot. The only other card in Trinket Mages slot I actually like is Night's Whsiper because it has a low casting cost, primary color and also set's up. But life loss can be annoying, which is why I don't play Grim Tutor.

Alfred

11-28-2006, 05:35 PM

Kronicler

11-28-2006, 07:02 PM

That doesn't make any sense.

You want me to elaborate further than "we seldom have blue mana when comboing" ? Ok. One of the great things about TES is that it uses 5 color lands. This allows us to use set up / protection cards of any color as well as use 2 different color ritual effects as well as the same 2 color tutor effects while comboing. A problem arises though when we attempt to use 3 different colors while comboing (red, black, and blue) because only in rare cases will you be comboing with 3 lands to provide you with the colors you require(as only 10 lands are in the deck, and we go off turn 1-3). Another way to achieve 3 all color sources is to have 2 lands and a lotus petal, but because this situation does not happen every game (or even close to it) the blue combo cards will more often than not be unusable. Using blue, green, or white set up cards is fine, as producing a single mana of any color by itself is never a problem. The problem is trying to produce 3 different colors of mana in a single turn reliably while maintaining this decks speed and consistency

Bryant Cook

11-28-2006, 09:07 PM

Wastedlife, I don't want to be a dick here, because I really like the setup of the deck, but I too think that Trinket Mage just costs too much. Many times I've found that I draw into them only to find that I have to burn a peice of acceleration in order to cast it.

I'm going to experiment a bit with some of the "on-top" tutors like Mystical Tutor and Enlightened Tutor. Careful Study doesn't sound too bad either, but Brainstorm + tutor effects can really own shit too and digs deeper, so I think that may be a viable alternative.

Trinket Mage has been replaced with cards that cost the same as Mage in other people's lists. I did somemore testing tonight against Mr.Nightmare I didn't really notice too much of a differencer between Trinketmage and Night's Whisper.

Ontop tutors are bad with Threshold being played(Predict) weakening your match-up as well as them being card disadvantage. B-storm just doesn't have enough suffle effects.

xsockmonkeyx

11-29-2006, 02:23 AM

BiscuitVader

11-29-2006, 12:18 PM

Is Grim Tutor too expensive to even consider? If Grim Tutor was only worth a dollar then would it be in the deck?

How much of an issue is lifeloss due to your own spells?

EDIT: is Impulse worthy of consideration?
If Grim Tutor was just a dollar, then I think it could be run as a one or two of... As Infernal Tutor numbers five and six.

Lifeloss has been an issue for me only when I have slower draws, and I'm playing against Goblins or a very fast Threshold draw with counter backup. I'm not sure how adding an additional two lifeloss would work though.

Impulse has been a card I was considering as well. The only problem I see with it is the blue in the casting cost... Setting up for the combo, its great, but once your going off, I think it would become dead alot of the time.

I have another suggestion for a card, Minds Desire. If you run it as a one of, you will randomly get draws where you can play it with 6+ storm. This is random card draw, but with 6+ storm, odds are your going to get a Wish or Tutor. It also allows you to crack LED and still have cards to play.
Though, something tells me this is a bad idea, but I thought I would throw it out there.

rsaunder

11-29-2006, 04:00 PM

You want me to elaborate further than "we seldom have blue mana when comboing" ? Ok. One of the great things about TES is that it uses 5 color lands. This allows us to use set up / protection cards of any color as well as use 2 different color ritual effects as well as the same 2 color tutor effects while comboing. A problem arises though when we attempt to use 3 different colors while comboing (red, black, and blue) because only in rare cases will you be comboing with 3 lands to provide you with the colors you require(as only 10 lands are in the deck, and we go off turn 1-3). Another way to achieve 3 all color sources is to have 2 lands and a lotus petal, but because this situation does not happen every game (or even close to it) the blue combo cards will more often than not be unusable. Using blue, green, or white set up cards is fine, as producing a single mana of any color by itself is never a problem. The problem is trying to produce 3 different colors of mana in a single turn reliably while maintaining this decks speed and consistency
Perhaps I should have expressed myself more clearly. I'm wondering how you could possibly use the arguement that "trinket mage takes blue mana to combo", and suggest careful study as a replacement. I'm well aware of how the deck works in regards to colors, thanks though.

Nightmare

11-29-2006, 04:05 PM

I have another suggestion for a card, Minds Desire. If you run it as a one of, you will randomly get draws where you can play it with 6+ storm. This is random card draw, but with 6+ storm, odds are your going to get a Wish or Tutor. It also allows you to crack LED and still have cards to play.
Though, something tells me this is a bad idea, but I thought I would throw it out there.If you cast Mind's Desire, you will promptly get a game loss, as the card is banned in Legacy.

blarknob

11-29-2006, 04:10 PM

I have another suggestion for a card, Minds Desire. If you run it as a one of, you will randomly get draws where you can play it with 6+ storm. This is random card draw, but with 6+ storm, odds are your going to get a Wish or Tutor. It also allows you to crack LED and still have cards to play.
Though, something tells me this is a bad idea, but I thought I would throw it out there.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy

iOWN

11-29-2006, 06:55 PM

Here are some pros and cons of the cards considered for the Trinket Mage slot. I probably missed some stuff so feel free to correct or add something.

Trinket Mage -
Pros: really cheap($), chump blockage + maybe some beats, sac to plunge, therapy.
Cons: 3 mana, U in casting cost, "only" grabs <2 cc artifacts. When played, it doesnt add to threshhold unless sacced or killed

Night's Whisper-
Pros: cheap($), represents actual CA instead of parity, black spell with 2CC.
Cons: loss of life, grabs 2 random cards.

Intuition-
Pros: Can (potentially) grab any card, builds threshold, instant which can be played EOT if needed.
Cons: kind of expen$ive, 3 mana + U mana cost, may require 3ofs to maximize its tutoring ability

Grim Tutor-
Pros: grabs anything with or without hellbent, black spell
Cons: a bajillion dollars for a playset, 3cc, loss of 3 life.

Meditate-
Pros: affordable($)draw 4 type card advantage
Cons: comboing out may require luck as your next 4 cards are random. 3 mana, U in casting cost.

Infernal Contract-
Pros: cheap($) draw 4, black spell.
Cons: huge loss of life, BBB is tough at times, the 4 cards are random

And now some questions:

How often do you wish Trinket Mage could grab more than a 0-1cc artifact? How much benefit is the 2/2 body the decks strategy?

Is Grim Tutor too expensive to even consider? If Grim Tutor was only worth a dollar then would it be in the deck?

If Intuition is used then are 3ofs necessary?

Which is better in TES, a tutor or a draw 4s?

How much of an issue is lifeloss due to your own spells?

EDIT: is Impulse worthy of consideration?

Night's Whisper is probably the weakest replacement, because there is simply no reason to run it over Contract/Bargain (other than less life) since it doesn't really make you any more consistent. However the low mana cost does make it a little attractive, and I'm going to test it out in my Intuition or Fork slot.

I've found Intuition very helpful even midcombo, since it can get manafix, accel, or help you combo off harder. Playing it EOT won't happen often, though, since unless you've gotten three lands or two and a mox out, you'd be wasting mana sources.

Grim Tutor is bad. It costs 3, and grabs anything. But, it only grabs one card, and will likely not leave you enough mana to continue comboing. On the other hand, Draw4s chance you more mana accel and tutors and although they are slightly less reliable, make your combo much smoother than a three mana zero-advantage card.

Meditate is one of my favorite choices for the deck. It can give remarkably explosive first-turn hands, especially because it has no heavy color commitment (unlike the black draw4s) and won't kill you if you fizzle (although is usually equally as bad). The open mana makes it possible to combo out on either black or red sources, making it much more flexible than the other.

Contract or Bargain are both powerful cards, but like you said loses tons of life and can only be cast when you went off with black sources. I think that this is best kept to one SB as a wish target and maybe 1 MD.

I like the idea of Impulse, but it is questionable whether it would be any match for Plunge. The only real reason to run it would be so that you don't have to remove a maybe important spell from the game and risk fizzling because you do not have Wish.

I run Intuition, and the only 3of that I run because of it is IGG. I don't think it really makes you morph the deck at all, and it seems like I'm usually able to cast it without mana problems.

Tutors or Draw4s? That's a hard question. I think you can't run any less than 8 tutors and that's a bare minimum; it should usually be 13-14. Draw4 (and the draw-seven) are relied on less and can usually be tutored for or only used once in a game. I think 3-4 MD with one SB is a better number and will frustrate the player less. I don't really think you CAN say Draw4s are better than tutors since TES pretty much relies on Tutors, but they can certainly end up being powerful early- and midcombo cards.

Kronicler

11-29-2006, 09:01 PM

Perhaps I should have expressed myself more clearly. I'm wondering how you could possibly use the arguement that "trinket mage takes blue mana to combo", and suggest careful study as a replacement. I'm well aware of how the deck works in regards to colors, thanks though.

To clarify what I said: Trinket Mage requires that you have blue mana available while comboing in order to effectively use it, because using it as a setup card usually means you burn a piece of acceleration to cast it. The reason careful study is a good replacement is because it is almost exclusively used as a set up card rather than a card to be played mid combo. It also helps us to achieve threshold for cabal ritual as it puts 3 cards into the graveyard, and allows us to weed out any cards we don't want in our hand such as those preventing us from getting hellbent.

For the same color based reasons why I dislike trinket mage in this deck, I also dislike meditate, intuition, and other blue cards that cost 3 or more as they are only helpful mid combo.

In terms of other suggested cards, impulse isn't terrible, but probably not worth the spot. I could see infernal contract possibly working, but it's tripple black mana cost is prety prohibitive. Some mid combo draw would be great, but then we would have a chance of fizzling which currently, if you do the math right, is currently impossible (barring a counter of some type by your opponent). Night's Whisper isn't a terrible idea... just not sure if it would do as much good as careful study. I'll give it some thought.

Kronicler

iOWN

11-29-2006, 09:18 PM

To clarify what I said: Trinket Mage requires that you have blue mana available while comboing in order to effectively use it, because using it as a setup card usually means you burn a piece of acceleration to cast it. The reason careful study is a good replacement is because it is almost exclusively used as a set up card rather than a card to be played mid combo. It also helps us to achieve threshold for cabal ritual as it puts 3 cards into the graveyard, and allows us to weed out any cards we don't want in our hand such as those preventing us from getting hellbent.

For the same color based reasons why I dislike trinket mage in this deck, I also dislike meditate, intuition, and other blue cards that cost 3 or more as they are only helpful mid combo.

In terms of other suggested cards, impulse isn't terrible, but probably not worth the spot. I could see infernal contract possibly working, but it's tripple black mana cost is prety prohibitive. Some mid combo draw would be great, but then we would have a chance of fizzling which currently, if you do the math right, is currently impossible (barring a counter of some type by your opponent). Night's Whisper isn't a terrible idea... just not sure if it would do as much good as careful study. I'll give it some thought.

Kronicler

What are you talking about? Only being able to play it as set-up is not good. Intuition can be played as set-up, or anytime during the combo. Meditate can be used anytime during the combo.

Meditate/Intuition - Card advantage. Let you fix hand or smooth out combo. Meditate gives +3 hand, +1 yard. Intuitiong gives +3 yard, slight card advantage, and better card selection.

Careful Study - Card disadvantage, cannot be used during combo. Gives +3 yard, -1 hand and random card selection.

Sorry, but it just isn't a good card in TES. Impulse and Brainstorm do better at card selection (Brainstorm does just as good a job 'weeding out cards' and protects against disruption) and Thresh can really just be obtained midcombo. The disadvantage in playing these also comes that if you play a Draw4 or Returns as you combo off, having these gives you a greater chance of fizzling.

You are barring off any single-costing blue cards without much reason. A second land is never rare. Neither is one land and a Lotus Petal. Or a Chrome Mox. I think you should try testing out 'midcombo' blue cards a bit more before discarding them as impossible to play. I see your point about casting blue off a land before combo being easier, but I'm pretty sure the power of the other choices just outweigh this slight advantage.

11-29-2006, 09:23 PM

Bryant Cook

11-29-2006, 10:03 PM

I had a lengthy comment to add here, but accidently x'd out of window and don't feel like retyping it. But to sum up what it said:

- Trinket Mage should be replaced.

- Night's Whisper is allright, but it really doesn't give that big a boost compared to a tutor. However, it's a nice card to get started midgame if you shit the bed early on.

- Infernal Contract isn't a good idea because this deck hits itself for a lot of damage. Between painlands and Plunge, Contract would lose you the game vs. combo.

- Why use Impulse when you can run Peer through Depths? The only cards Peer can't get are lands and Xantid Swarm, but the deeper dig might be worth it.

- Grim Tutor is decent except it costs too much to buy.

- Meditate is a decent option, possibly the best one, but I dislike that it requires blue mana.

Basically, I'm not sure what the best slot would be, but Trinket Mage is ass.

1.) I disagree on Mage but I'm testing Night's Whisper and liking it soo far, haven't really noticed a difference.

2.) Night's whisper is always card advantage where Careful study can't be card advantage. You're right it's no Tutor but it's better than Grim Tutor and it's a set-up card that gains card advantage which Impulse does not.

3.) Bargains/Contracts are bad because all of the painlands and Plunge into Darkness. They lower your life total enough for it to matter, in which if this happens you'll lose to great match-ups like goblins.

4.) WHY BLUE CARDS? People are complaining about Trinket Mages casting cost look at what they're playing instead? Intuition and Meditate. Impluse/peer aren't better than Plunge into Darkness so they'd be rather unessesary, not to mention they don't gain card advantage in a deck all about abusing it.

5.) Grim tutor is awful. 1BB-> 3BBBB for Ill-gotten Gains. No thank you. Thats without mana floating also.

6.) Meditate casts the same as Trinket Mage which is one of the arguements against it so why? Draw 4's are bad in TES the deck want's specific cards at all times. Not to mention this isn't a luck based deck it's stright up combo out like IGGy Pop.

BiscuitVader

11-29-2006, 11:01 PM

If you cast Mind's Desire, you will promptly get a game loss, as the card is banned in Legacy.
I've been playing too much Extended...

I like Nights Whisper or Impulse in the slot then.

Kronicler

11-29-2006, 11:02 PM

What are you talking about? Only being able to play it as set-up is not good. Intuition can be played as set-up, or anytime during the combo. Meditate can be used anytime during the combo.

Meditate/Intuition - Card advantage. Let you fix hand or smooth out combo. Meditate gives +3 hand, +1 yard. Intuitiong gives +3 yard, slight card advantage, and better card selection.

Careful Study - Card disadvantage, cannot be used during combo. Gives +3 yard, -1 hand and random card selection.

Sorry, but it just isn't a good card in TES. Impulse and Brainstorm do better at card selection (Brainstorm does just as good a job 'weeding out cards' and protects against disruption) and Thresh can really just be obtained midcombo. The disadvantage in playing these also comes that if you play a Draw4 or Returns as you combo off, having these gives you a greater chance of fizzling.

You are barring off any single-costing blue cards without much reason. A second land is never rare. Neither is one land and a Lotus Petal. Or a Chrome Mox. I think you should try testing out 'midcombo' blue cards a bit more before discarding them as impossible to play. I see your point about casting blue off a land before combo being easier, but I'm pretty sure the power of the other choices just outweigh this slight advantage.

At this point I really cannot help you to understand that:

a. we already need 2 colors of mana to combo off, and adding a 3rd necessary color is a bad idea

and that:

b. cards that cost 3 or more mana are not set up cards, because in order "set up" with them and still combo between turns 1-3, you must use some acceleration to cast them.

I cannot emphasize these points enough.

Your comment about random card selection when in relation to careful study is wrong as there is nothing random about it. You chose what to discard and in many cases I am happy to discard those cards. You trade 1 card advantage for thresh, hand sculping, and making it easier to get hellbent. Your comment about brainstorm is also incorrect as without shuffle effects brainstorm doesn't weed anything out of your hand as you will just draw it all back.

Your final paragraph is absolute jibberish as you seem to think we need 2 colors of mana when adding blue will require us to need three.

Look, I'm not really sure careful study is the best card for the slot. I've just tested with it a lot and it seems to be great. But your disrespectful tone and the fact that many of the points brought up in your post have already been answered make me frustrated.

If you haven't meant to be disrespectful then I am sorry to have interpreted it this way. I am also sorry that my tone is quite harsh. Frankly my patience is just wearing thin.

Kronicler

xsockmonkeyx

11-30-2006, 07:05 AM

- Grim Tutor is decent except it costs too much to buy.

- Meditate is a decent option, possibly the best one, but I dislike that it requires blue mana.

Grim Tutor is expensive but its also very good here. Also, It may only require 2-3 to be effective here so a full playset isnt necessary.

Meditate, I feel, should be in here at least as a singleton target and maybe more. I feel that Contract is decent in the SB as a wish target but probably not more. In most cases Id rather have a Grim Tutor.

Bryant Cook

11-30-2006, 02:38 PM

iOWN

11-30-2006, 03:53 PM

At this point I really cannot help you to understand that:

a. we already need 2 colors of mana to combo off, and adding a 3rd necessary color is a bad idea

and that:

b. cards that cost 3 or more mana are not set up cards, because in order "set up" with them and still combo between turns 1-3, you must use some acceleration to cast them.

I cannot emphasize these points enough.

Your comment about random card selection when in relation to careful study is wrong as there is nothing random about it. You chose what to discard and in many cases I am happy to discard those cards. You trade 1 card advantage for thresh, hand sculping, and making it easier to get hellbent. Your comment about brainstorm is also incorrect as without shuffle effects brainstorm doesn't weed anything out of your hand as you will just draw it all back.

Your final paragraph is absolute jibberish as you seem to think we need 2 colors of mana when adding blue will require us to need three.

Look, I'm not really sure careful study is the best card for the slot. I've just tested with it a lot and it seems to be great. But your disrespectful tone and the fact that many of the points brought up in your post have already been answered make me frustrated.

If you haven't meant to be disrespectful then I am sorry to have interpreted it this way. I am also sorry that my tone is quite harsh. Frankly my patience is just wearing thin.

Kronicler

a. You should realize that I had stated I recognized the issue of producing blue mana during combo as opposed to being able to cast it off of a land before, but you should also realize that there are 16 to 20 possible blue sources in the deck, and you only need two to use them.

b. The acceleration needed to cast a 3cc card before turn three is exactly one card. I don't see this as prohibitive unless you need to rush the combo due to hate or possible disruption.

Like wastedlife said, I meant that the cards you draw are random, which means you are trading card advantage to dig one card deeper into your deck (because if you chose not to run the Careful Studies, you would theoretically first card you draw in your hand already :wink:). Brainstorm, although leaves the cards on top of your library, can be used the turn before you combo, meaning you weed a card you don't need but dig one card deeper than Careful Study. Also I would like you do imagine a hand where there were no useless cards, maybe comprised of much acceleration, in which case Careful Study would force you to pitch a card that you would've liked to keep.

I am sorry that you were not able to comprehend my last paragraph. In it I implied that you were able to use one color as acceleration and the other to cast the blue card. I said nowhere that I thought two colors were needed, as in fact only one is: blue. Really though, it is more efficient to have a source per color, but you don't need more than one to accel. into Meditate.

Finally, I do not want to start a flamewar and lead this thread offtrack, but I am not sure what kind of respect you think you deserve and I certaintly never asked that you lend your patience. You may have addressed the points I was trying to make earlier - and obviously I don't think your answers were correct. I'm sorry if you interpreted my post as an attack, but you are really way too quick to jump at it.

@wastedlife: What specifically about the Meditates/Bargains have you had a problem with? How many are you running? What I don't understand why you like Trinket Mage over the other choices if one of the reasons you don't like them is the blue in the cost. I think I said this earlier but this is the way I look at a draw4: The advantage it has over a tutor (including Trinket Mage) is that even though it doesn't directly get you a card, it can draw you more acceleration which makes continuing the combo easier. Like, you draw Land, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Burning Wish. Even though you didn't get Tendrils or something, you get a wider variety of cards which can sometimes be better. I don't really know what your testing has been like, so could you explain it a little more?

Edit: @Kronicler: I see that the 'midcombo' may have seemed like I was mocking. Sorry, I just meant to quote the word so that it was more clear. If I was mocking, it would have been "midcombo" instead or something. :)

Bryant Cook

11-30-2006, 04:17 PM

1.) Meditate and Bargain both cannot be used as set-up cards. Because of thier drawbacks.
2.) Meditate and Bargain's casting costs. If the arguement made against mage is it's casting cost, why play meditate? Really if you complain about a card's casting cost don't replace it with a card that costs the same.
3.) Meditate and Bargain both Suffer from drawing a "Random" 4. Meaning you are more likely to fizzel if you don't get the nuts. It's possible you get average draws Mox, Seething Song, Infernal, and Xantid Swarm. These draws are more likely to happen than the nuts in your example, just clarifing.
4.) I've tested 3 Bargains, 3 Meditates, splits between the two, 1 and 1 witrh another Seething Song, Intuition, Night's Whisper, Careful study, Grim Tutor, Rystic Tutor, Promise of Power, Skeletal Scrying, Brainstorm and Tainted Pact within the last month. I test this deck 24/7 people who accuse me of not testing and being ignorant with card choices, are likely to be wrong.
5.) The testing was against Solidarity, Threshold, Deadguy, and Fearie Stompy. Goblins would've been included but it's such a good matgch-up as it is I didn't want to waste time.

iOWN

11-30-2006, 04:25 PM

1.) Meditate and Bargain both cannot be used as set-up cards. Because of thier drawbacks.

Yes, I won't even attempt arguing against this. This makes them a bit worse, but I usually tend to want to save them until going off anyhow. From another point of view they can just increase your opening hand by three, which is nothing less than useful.

2.) Meditate and Bargain's casting costs. If the arguement made against mage is it's casting cost, why play meditate? Really if you complain about a card's casting cost don't replace it with a card that costs the same.

I haven't found the cost of either Meditate or Mage to be a pain, the thing I dislike about Mage is its tendency to sit around in your hand and drain mana with less replacement when you cast it.

3.) Meditate and Bargain both Suffer from drawing a "Random" 4. Meaning you are more likely to fizzel if you don't get the nuts. It's possible you get average draws Mox, Seething Song, Infernal, and Xantid Swarm. These draws are more likely to happen than the nuts in your example, just clarifing.

Mox, Song, Infernal, Swarm isn't terrible if you went off with enough mana, but I do play Swarms SBd as a result of that chance which does lower the control match some, I guess.

4.) I've tested 3 Bargains, 3 Meditates, splits between the two, 1 and 1 witrh another Seething Song, Intuition, Night's Whisper, Careful study, Grim Tutor, Rystic Tutor, Promise of Power, Skeletal Scrying, Brainstorm and Tainted Pact within the last month. I test this deck 24/7 people who accuse me of not testing and being ignorant with card choices, are likely to be wrong.

I don't know when I or anyone else said that, but I definitely believe you. I just wanted to know the details of when the cards failed.

Also, what are your suggestions for playing against Thresh? I've been having trouble against it. I know the preboard will die no matter what if I don't maindeck the Swarms, but postboard when I don't draw a Swarm Defense Grid doesn't seem to be enough to stop them from disrupting them (when I resolve one, I usually end up not being able to combo as fast and die to freecasted counters when they hit three lands). What's the best thing to do in this match?

Bryant Cook

12-01-2006, 08:57 PM

Yes, I won't even attempt arguing against this. This makes them a bit worse, but I usually tend to want to save them until going off anyhow. From another point of view they can just increase your opening hand by three, which is nothing less than useful.

I haven't found the cost of either Meditate or Mage to be a pain, the thing I dislike about Mage is its tendency to sit around in your hand and drain mana with less replacement when you cast it.

Mox, Song, Infernal, Swarm isn't terrible if you went off with enough mana,
but I do play Swarms SBd as a result of that chance which does lower the control match some, I guess.

I don't know when I or anyone else said that, but I definitely believe you. I just wanted to know the details of when the cards failed.

Also, what are your suggestions for playing against Thresh? I've been having trouble against it. I know the preboard will die no matter what if I don't maindeck the Swarms, but postboard when I don't draw a Swarm Defense Grid doesn't seem to be enough to stop them from disrupting them (when I resolve one, I usually end up not being able to combo as fast and die to freecasted counters when they hit three lands). What's the best thing to do in this match?

No they don't. In order to cast Meditate or Bargain you'd have to waste a piece of acceleration or wait until turn 4. In which you'll probably lose anyway. If you don't find problems with the casting cost, feel free to run them I'd just prefer consistancy and a better casting cost than a bomb in one turn. You should never play Xantid SB, you want him maindeck trust me. I've gone obver this before in the thread. I'll sum it up, you want to combo out fast or prepare for a long game. Build up tutors and play artifact mana and don't discard. Wait for them to tap out enough and try to win there, or Burning wish with a storm count of 0 for Tendrils then ifnernal for the double tendrils plan.

BiscuitVader

12-02-2006, 02:24 PM

I've been doing some testing with this deck, and this is the list of have come up with.

// Lands
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Cabal Pit

// Creatures
4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

1 [TSP] Grapeshot
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [US] Duress

4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [JU] Death Wish
4 [FD] Plunge into Darkness

4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [MR] Seething Song

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [OD] Recoup
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild

Death Wish looks bad on paper, but i like it as a one of... It is basicly a fifth Burning Wish. If you play it the turn your going off, the life loss does not matter, and against slower decks, the life loss again does not matter.

I can see where Diminishing Returns would be usefull, but I have never used it for anything other than a Mox Imprint. Thats why I cut it from the main deck, and it is now just a sideboard card.

I like having 4 Duress/Therapy in the maindeck, along with Swarm. It makes your threshold matchup a billion times better game one, then you bring in 4 Grid, and you should win easy(ish).

Citrus-God

12-02-2006, 03:24 PM

So your going to run a playset of Plunge into Darkness and a Death Wish? I dont see anything working out here...

Anyways, heres my build...

// Mana 22
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Forbidden Orchard
2 Cabal Pit

// Creatures 4
4 Xantid Swam

// Spells 34
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Seething Song
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard 15
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten-Gains
1 Cave-In
1 Recoup
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Shattering Spree
3 Defens Grid

I didnt like Trinket Mage much now, but I also wanted more disruption, and it's better against things like High Tide. Cabal Therapies can easily be Night's Whisper in aggro metas, or Duress if you dont like the randomness.

xsockmonkeyx

12-02-2006, 04:26 PM

*seal clap* for the new lists. I like the return of maindeck disruption in Cabal Therapy/Duress.

BiscuitVader

12-02-2006, 05:58 PM

Does anyone even use Diminishing Returns?
Like I said earlier, I have been testing this alot, and have never once used it.

When is the right time to cast it?

Bryant Cook

12-02-2006, 10:31 PM

All I have to say is OMFGBBQWTF! He stole my tech, I thought on that 2 day's ago as a singleton because it makes a circle around Meddling Mage. I bought an S-Chinese one earlier and was going to post on how good is but you beat me to the punch. Great minds think alike...I guess? This has enclosed 1 of the 3 slots of where Trinket Mage used to be, another thought I've had is 2 ESG's but they we're alright in my testing nothing amazing. Right now there's 2 Seething song in my slots.

As for Diminishing Returns you should cast all the time in my opinion, I sure as hell do. It allows such an easy turn 1 win, turn 1 win's with IGG just aren’t as easy. If anything I'd add more before I cut them. It's also the reason we don't give a damn about our graveyard. I like Biscuit’s Vader’s list but I'd imagine sometimes too much protection show's up, I don't know I'll have to test it.

BiscuitVader

12-02-2006, 11:46 PM

As for Diminishing Returns you should cast all the time in my opinion, I sure as hell do. It allows such an easy turn 1 win, turn 1 win's with IGG just aren’t as easy. If anything I'd add more before I cut them. It's also the reason we don't give a damn about our graveyard. I like Biscuit’s Vader’s list but I'd imagine sometimes too much protection show's up, I don't know I'll have to test it.
I'm glad you like my list. Thanks.
Your right, sometimes to much protection shows up, but that is hardly ever that bad of a thing. All the stuff that kills turn 1 Lacky ends up killing Swarm so the Threapy/Duress' let me go off unhindered.

The only time I hate drawing lots of it is against Goblins, and even then, Chumping with Swarm is not that bad of a play.

What do you mean it allows for such an easy turn 1 win? If you want to cast it, you need UU, which unless you have LED or Double Petals is not going to happen. Can you post a goldfish hand of you using it. I really have never used it. And am doing fine in all my testing. I'm not saying your wrong... If anything, I'm saying I cant play the deck correctly, but I would really like to know how to play it correctly.

What about Pentad Prism in the deck? At worst, it is a free spell, but it can fix your mana. Or let you go off with no mana troubles if you cast it the turn before you try and go off.

Alfred

12-03-2006, 04:02 PM

Diminishing Returns is definately awesome. Between that and IGG, they are the most tutored-for cards after a LED crack. Returns gives you so much more juice, it's not even funny.

tsabo_tavoc

12-03-2006, 11:03 PM

All I have to say is OMFGBBQWTF! He stole my tech, I thought on that 2 day's ago as a singleton because it makes a circle around Meddling Mage. I bought an S-Chinese one earlier and was going to post on how good is but you beat me to the punch. Great minds think alike...I guess? This has enclosed 1 of the 3 slots of where Trinket Mage used to be, another thought I've had is 2 ESG's but they we're alright in my testing nothing amazing. Right now there's 2 Seething song in my slots.

First, I am curious about the "S"; and I am just curious, please just tell me privately and I mean no offense.

Go-off with LED: you can cast Diminishing Returns. However, you have much more options which ensures your win, while Diminishing Returns brings you 7 random cards and gets your opponents refueled with counters.
Go-off without LED: you cannot cast Diminishing Returns.
Setup: why Diminishing Returns?

Diminishing Returns is TECH, is tech in SB that can make it powerful. Tech in MD don't suit many matchups, and drawing it becomes a real CdisA and Hellbent-hate.
I have few experiences, willing to be open. Hope that you can specify your selections instead of general comments.

12-04-2006, 12:11 AM

First, I am curious about the "S"; and I am just curious, please just tell me privately and I mean no offense.

'S' stands for simplified. Cards are printed in both traditional and simplified Chinese.

All I have to say is OMFGBBQWTF! He stole my tech, I thought on that 2 day's ago as a singleton because it makes a circle around Meddling Mage. I bought an S-Chinese one earlier and was going to post on how good is but you beat me to the punch. Great minds think alike...I guess? This has enclosed 1 of the 3 slots of where Trinket Mage used to be, another thought I've had is 2 ESG's but they we're alright in my testing nothing amazing. Right now there's 2 Seething song in my slots.

What is all this referring to? Did I miss something?

xsockmonkeyx

12-04-2006, 05:54 AM

Nightmare

12-04-2006, 09:06 AM

To clear up some issues,

S-Chinese refers to Simplified Chinese, as Diablos said. There were in the past, traditional and simplified versions of Chinese cards, recently they have stopped printing T-Chinese.

Wastedlife's excitement was referring to Death Wish in BiscuitVader's build. This is the card he got in S-Chinese, not Diminishing Returns.

Death Wish is not particularly great, it does nothing more than Grim Tutor, at the price of three times as much life or more. The knee-jerk reaction to that suggestion is "They cost a jillion dollars" but if you intend for your deck to be competitive, you shouldn't be scared to run the best cards in it just because they are expensive. While this deck at its current incarnation is on the budget side, if it can be improved by adding cards to the build it should be done, regardless of the price tag associated with them.

Diminishing Returns has great synergy with both Lion's Eye Diamond and Burning Wish. The 10 cards removed are often still (or even more) accessable due to Wish, so the drawback is rarely of relevance. There have been times when playtesting with Wastedlife when he would remove his outs from the game, but these situations are very few and far between.

xsockmonkeyx

12-04-2006, 09:42 AM

Death Wish is not particularly great, it does nothing more than Grim Tutor, at the price of three times as much life or more. The knee-jerk reaction to that suggestion is "They cost a jillion dollars" but if you intend for your deck to be competitive, you shouldn't be scared to run the best cards in it just because they are expensive. While this deck at its current incarnation is on the budget side, if it can be improved by adding cards to the build it should be done, regardless of the price tag associated with them.

QFT

I am of the opinion that Plunge is a bad Grim Tutor and the deck runs much smoother with that substitution. Wasted said in the opening that it would be ok to pay up to 5 life on Plunge in order to set up, so the whole life loss thing with GT is irrelevant for the most part. Instant speed isnt as great in sorcery speed combo deck. The extra mana and sorcery speed is often worth it for the added consistancy. If Trinket Mage is even on the radar then Grim Tutor is what you are looking for; access to artifacts @ 3 mana. GT has the added bonus of grabbing anything(sorceries) and using black mana. The bajillion dollar question is the only argument for Grim Tutor's ommition, and not a winning one.

Grim Tutor certainly improves the % of keepable opening hands, and (probably) improves goldfishing percentages for all critical turns. It also makes your singletons more relevent and opens up the possiblity of a main deck Defense Grid.

PS. if you can "waste" money on S-Chinese Foil everything then surely you can "waste" it on the damn tutors. Just saying.

Bryant Cook

12-04-2006, 03:40 PM

Chinese Alliances? Wtf?
Anyway, Regarding Diminishing Returns:

1)How often do you cast Diminishing Returns?

2)How big a factor is the symmetry of the draw 7?

3)Is the "remove the top ten" clause ever an issue?

4)How much better is Draw7(symmetry) than Draw4 to your combo?

5)Is it ever a win more/dead slot during play?

6)In what instance do you play it over Ill-Gotten Gains?

No not Chinese Alliances, Nightmare cleared this one up.

1.) Whenever it is the right play. The right play happens to be Diminishing Returns over Ill-Gotten Gains a lot of the time. When opponent has counter magic/Stifle/Orom's Chant, something else relevant is when you really want to cast Diminishing Returns. You also cast it when you have less mana floating than you need for Ill-Gotten Gains. There are often times when you simply cannot win the game with 0-2 mana floating with Ill-Gotten Gains but you can with Diminishing Returns.

2+4.) The draw factor is HUGE. The only time I don't like Returns is when I draw 2 lands with no way of finding an LED and winning. This doesn’t happen too often. Drawing seven cards compared to four with one more mana is basically Ancestral'ing yourself for 1 more mana. More cards are always better than fewer cards.

3.) Removing the top 10 doesn't actually matter with this deck. The chances of you removing 4 Burning Wish and your 3 win conditions (Grapeshot, Tendrils of Agony, and Empty the Warrens) are slim to none.

5.) No, I personally don't think Draw 7's can be win mores unless you have a Storm count of above 10 and a lethal Tutor on the stack and you get Returns instead of the win. It's my opinion and I stand by it, Draw 7's are more effective than draw 4's which is why they are played in Vintage. The only other way it is a win-more is you have a guaranteed win with IGG and you don't go for it in which you're an idiot.

6. I gave a quick example in #1.

7.) The Grim Tutor Vs. Death Wish argument, here's how it works. Grim Tutor can ONLY grab cards in the maindeck which probably are more than likely are card's in your SB(Ill-Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns, Tendrils of Agony , and Empty the Warrens,)"The Top 5 Most Tutored for cards" The only card that isn't listed is Lion's Eye Diamond which is the 5th. So the only card Death Wish doesn't grab is LED, but it can grab LED if it was removed. But Death Wish can grab answers to troublesome match-ups that Grim Tutor can’t (Shattering Spree, Rebuild, Cleanfall, Defense Grid, and Cabal Therapy). I personally like being able to grab answers if need be without spending a ton of mana and turns. I know this isn't the best idea but at least the option is there. The life loss of Death Wish to Grim Tutor is almost irrelevant if you're winning that turn and not using it as a set-up card. Actually, they are both horrible as set-up cards.

8.) You have me baffled; I don't even know where to start proving you wrong. If you are talking about set-up cards, 1st turn Plunge(land, Mox or land, Petal) for 5 is irrelevant, I don't care what you say you are wrong. Can be both agree on this? There is not a deck in the format (That is played) that isn't combo that will deal you 15 damage turn 1. Grim Tutor is an inferior card not to mention an inferior set-up card. The fastest optimal set-up is turn 2(land, land mox/petal) (Don't give me that turn 1 Dark Ritual, Grim Tutor bullshit because that is a dumb idea), in which you'll be winning turn 3. More often than not you'll be winning turn 4 with Grim Tutor and if you're not burning valuable acceleration along the way. If you are winning turn 4 why are you not playing Solidarity? Really this is fast combo deck. Instant speed only matter's when baiting counters and at least Plunge into Darkness can do that correctly (EOT Plunge, they counter you win during your turn). The fact that Grim Tutor is a sorcery is not an advantage, which would only matter if it was a wish target in which it's not.
The added mana for Grim Tutor's "Consistency" over Plunge into Darkness is not an advantage. Since TES is a heavy threat based deck which means you'll find a card to help you within the top 5 card's of your library at a cheaper cost. Since a lot of the cards do the same thing (Seething Song=Cabal Ritual, LED = Dark Ritual.) Plunge is a cheaper (as in mana cost) way of sufficiently winning turns 1-3. Plunge can also do combat tricks and can save game's in the Combo Mirror. I can honestly say I've gained 42 life off of Plunge and won that game the next turn against IGG. You cannot use Trinket Mage in an argument against Plunge into Darkness, please defend your arguments properly.
If anything Grim Tutor will decrease the percentages of keepable hands because of its high casting cost and its BB casting cost (At least with Death Wish it's only a one of). It will only decrease the percentages for turns because it cannot set-up and win quickly in the same game and is only good mid-combo.
Last and foremost don't tell me how to spend my or anyone else's money, it is not your place.

Nightmare

12-04-2006, 04:03 PM

There are really only 2 points I want to address that you made, Bryant, so I'll cut to them.

7.) The Grim Tutor Vs. Death Wish argument, here's how it works. Grim Tutor can ONLY grab cards in the maindeck which probably are more than likely are card's in your SB(Ill-Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns, Tendrils of Agony , and Empty the Warrens,)"The Top 5 Most Tutored for cards" The only card that isn't listed is Lion's Eye Diamond which is the 5th. So the only card Death Wish doesn't grab is LED, but it can grab LED if it was removed. But Death Wish can grab answers to troublesome match-ups that Grim Tutor can’t (Shattering Spree, Rebuild, Cleanfall, Defense Grid, and Cabal Therapy). I personally like being able to grab answers if need be without spending a ton of mana and turns. I know this isn't the best idea but at least the option is there. The life loss of Death Wish to Grim Tutor is almost irrelevant if you're winning that turn and not using it as a set-up card. Actually, they are both horrible as set-up cards.The only cards you mentioned out of the board that you don't already have access to game 1 are Defense Grid and Rebuild. Rebuild and Shattering Spree are effectively the same card, so Wishing for Rebuild seems like a poor choice. As for Defense Grid, in a situation like you are describing, where you need to Wish for it to play around hate, you've spent 5 mana and 2-3 cards to get to it, and have already wasted a ton of time and mana. In this situation (playing around counters) your opponent counters the Defense Grid and your hand is depleted. It seems like a waste of resources and life to be Wishing for cards when you could be winning the game instead. I remind you we're discussing the merits of the card as a 1-of, so the ability to wish for 1 extra card in the board that will rarely be relevant must be weighed vs. the ability to tutor for an LED, one of your admitted 5 most tutored for cards.

8.) Grim Tutor vs. Plunge stuff here
Last and foremost don't tell me how to spend my or anyone else's money, it is not your place.[/QUOTE]I wouldn't replace Plunge with Grim. The two serve different purposes, and are used in completely different ways. I'm suggesting Grim over Death Wish, which costs exactly the same mana, is the same speed, and effectively serves the same purpose. I point you to the lack of Death Long lists currently in Vintage. While the formats are nowhere near the same, the parallel is still valid. One has been proven to be superior to the other.

I'm not telling you how to spend your money. Hell, I offered to let you borrow one of my Grim Tutors. It's a fact, however, that choosing cards based on budget leads to subpar card choices.

Bryant Cook

12-04-2006, 04:27 PM

rsaunder

12-04-2006, 04:36 PM

In fact I posted a few pages back on don't let prices interfer with card choices.I've become wary of acually going out and buying them, after zodiac dragon and time vault. Still, for discussion purpouses, there's no reason to let price dissuade you.

Grim tutor really can't fetch anything that wish can't fetch. There's no point at all to tutoring up a LED with grim, but I suppose the option exists...

Nightmare

12-04-2006, 04:57 PM

So you are telling me that playing Grim Tutor(1BB) for Burning wish(2RBB) for Shattering Spree(2RXBB against 5/3 or fearie stompy is more optimal than Death Wish(1BB) for Rebuild(3BBU and clearing the board? Don't tell me these match-ups are irrelevant because they are both played archetypes that happen to be bad match-ups. I agree that the Defense Grid option is over costed but it's still there. I figured if sockmonkey can use it in his defense why can't I? I'm not saying to Grim for Wish For Shattering Spree. I'm saying you have 4 Burning Wishes to get it, so why bother running Death Wish for it, too? You might as well just run Cunning Wish, too. My point is, Death wish is unneccesary, and if you're adamant about running it, Grim Tutor does about as much as Death Wish, and costs less life. Perhaps it can't find a solution for Chalice game 1, but then, you have at least 4 other outs for that. I find myself having a difficult time coming up with a scenario where 4x Burning Wish +1 Death Wish is better than 4x Burning Wish + 1 Grim Tutor.

Bryant Cook

12-04-2006, 05:08 PM

I'm not saying to Grim for Wish For Shattering Spree. I'm saying you have 4 Burning Wishes to get it, so why bother running Death Wish for it, too? You might as well just run Cunning Wish, too. My point is, Death wish is unneccesary, and if you're adamant about running it, Grim Tutor does about as much as Death Wish, and costs less life. Perhaps it can't find a solution for Chalice game 1, but then, you have at least 4 other outs for that. I find myself having a difficult time coming up with a scenario where 4x Burning Wish +1 Death Wish is better than 4x Burning Wish + 1 Grim Tutor.

My point is that they are essentially the same card.

Nightmare

12-04-2006, 05:09 PM

My point is that they are essentially the same card.And mine is, one costs ~10 life, and the other costs 3. Why would you run Death Wish?

Bryant Cook

12-04-2006, 05:11 PM

Because it is slightly more flexible. The slot isn't even solid, but for now that's one of the 3 open slots. The life is almost irrelevant while combong and it will hardly ever be 10 life by the way.

xsockmonkeyx

12-04-2006, 05:26 PM

A bunch of verbage

Theres a lot of misrepresentation of my argument in your post so fuck it, theres really no point in to reply. Those were fair open questions and arguments not a flame bait.

AnwarA101

12-04-2006, 05:28 PM

Because it is slightly more flexible. The slot isn't even solid, but for now that's one of the 3 open slots. The life is almost irrelevant while combong and it will hardly ever be 10 life by the way.

How exactly is Death Wish more flexible? You can tutor for everything in your deck which is at least as many spells as you can Death Wish for. You have 12 unique spells in your sideboard which you can wish for, but you have at least 17 unique spells in your main deck (this is based on page 1).

Citrus-God

12-04-2006, 06:33 PM

How exactly is Death Wish more flexible? You can tutor for everything in your deck which is at least as many spells as you can Death Wish for. You have 12 unique spells in your sideboard which you can wish for, but you have at least 17 unique spells in your main deck (this is based on page 1).

Well.. my build is slightly more different from most others, but I happen to have an Infernal Tutor in the SB, as my gameplan has always been creating a chain of Tutors. Death Wish means I have more of a chance to get that Infernal Tutor or IGG. Sometimes you dont make enough Red mana, so this is there for you. Also, with Death Wish, it can help you make more consistent Turn 2 kills.

As for my current list...

// Lands 11
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Forbidden Orcahrd
2 Cabal Pit

// Creatures 4
4 Xantid Swarm

// Spells 46
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Seething Song
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Plunge into Darkness
4 Burning Wish
1 Death Wish
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Night's Whisper

// Sideboard 15
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cave-In
1 Cleanfall
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Shattering Spree
3 Defense Grid

My list is slightly more different from most peoples. Mine is based on opmizations and killing on the 2nd Turn. Drawing multiple Rite of Flames has won me games, and getting Threshold as well. Shattering Spree is ran over Rebuild in my build because it blows Chalice up more effectively, and isnt skeptical to counter magic.

BiscuitVader

12-04-2006, 06:45 PM

After looking at both sides of the arguement, I am going to have to change my opinion on Death Wish, and say Grim Tutor is slightly better. Yes, there are times when Wish will be better, but for the most part, Grim is what you need most times.

The only real way to find out what is better is to test, so, get to it, and back up arguements with results, not situations you come up with in your head.

The reason for saying Grim Tutor for me is it can be used as a set up card if need be. It can get (almost) anything that Death Wish can, but not drain your life by 7-10. With Goblins being such a large part of the field, I feel that draining all that life could be a big mistake on occasion. I remember one time in testing, I had Death Wished after some Goblin Beats and was at five. Pyrotecnics + Mogg killed me.

While that wont happen very often, it happens on occasion and I feel we should make it happen less.

Bryant Cook

12-04-2006, 07:15 PM

Anywho you may be right on Grim Tutor Vs. Death Wish, I honestly don't know who's right and quite frankly don't care. I'm still unhappy with the 3 open slots and I'm looking for better options does anyone have any ideas? Besides cards already mentioned in the thread... I'm just not satisfied.

Bane of the Living

12-04-2006, 07:36 PM

herbig

12-04-2006, 07:49 PM

Why not just play Helm of Awakening? Its a great set up spell, your deck doesnt need to rely on it because you arent playing an egg heavy combo deck, yet it really ensures that combo the following turn.

Helm was cut awhile ago since its a setup card that shouldn't be relied on. If you don't rely on it then building the deck without it seems like a better idea.

I'm not sure either Grim Tutor or Death Wish should really be in this. In Vintage, Grim Tutor either gets you a win in Will or Desire, or keeps you mana neutral by getting Lotus to set up for Will or Desire. Since you don't have either card, staying neutral on mana isn't even all that good despite +1 storm, and can only be done by getting Cabal Ritual with threshold anyway (or something dumb like your 3rd Rite).

You need to tutor for a kill card or an engine that will generate more mana. In the absence of Lotus and Will, a three mana tutor just isn't good enough, not to mention double black and life loss.

Whit3 Ghost

12-04-2006, 08:03 PM

Right, but the main problem is that the 8 best tutors(Infernal and BWish) in our colors are currently being used and the deck could benifit from 1-3 tutors. Being the Vintage combo guy that you are, what would you suggest?

Kronicler

12-04-2006, 08:50 PM

helm of awakening as aditional tech doesn't sound like a terrible idea. Playing it turn 2 would make a turn 3 win almost ensured, but we definately don't need it to go off(as the deck functions great already) so not getting it some gaves wouldn't be a problem at all.

Kronicler

Bryant Cook

12-04-2006, 08:52 PM

What a great idea... Why not slow down the average turn win percentage? Helm is unneeded, slow and clucky. We've gone over this before.

Citrus-God

12-04-2006, 09:21 PM

What a great idea... Why not slow down the average turn win percentage? Helm is unneeded, slow and clucky. We've gone over this before.

Not to mention more aggressive mulligans, and bad Diminishing Return hands.

Kronicler

12-04-2006, 10:13 PM

yeah, fair enough. I didn't give it to much thought before I posted my comment, but I can see that it really doesn't belong here.

If this is an absolutely terrible idea please don't shoot me, but has desperate ritual been considered? It only nets you one mana, but mana accel is never a bad thing and it is easier to use than seething song as it only costs 2. It also bridges the mana gap that I come to sometimes when I have 1x rite of flame and 2 or 3 seething songs with only 1 land. We shouldn't include it for just that reason, but I'm just showing a point where it is useful. With the current open spots we could go 2x desperate ritual, 1x death wish / grim tutor.

Once again please don't kill me if this is a horrible idea, just throwing it out there.

Kronicler

BiscuitVader

12-04-2006, 11:59 PM

I've been testing Mystical Tutor. Yes, it puts the card on the top of your deck, and yes, it sometimes lets Threshold draw an extra card, but it gets anything for a single mana.

I'm not sure if it belongs in the deck. Sometimes I love it... as it has allowed me to get turn two wins easier. But, on the other hand, mid combo it sucks.

I've been playing games, and trying to get off a Returns, just to see how well it does, and I still don't like it very much.

rsaunder

12-05-2006, 03:34 PM

So, how about a brainstorming session. Everyone just throw ideas in there, they don't have to be good ones, just what you think could be possibilities.

HoA
Grim tutor
Death Wish
Infernal contract/cruel bargain
careful study
tainted pact
spoils of the vault
chromatic sphere/star
mystical tutor
etc.

I'm sure somthing will come up.

Bryant Cook

12-05-2006, 08:00 PM

kicks_422

12-05-2006, 08:26 PM

What exactly do you want the card to do? Tutor? Draw? Mana? Any specifications that you require (color, cc, etc.)?

Bryant Cook

12-06-2006, 06:42 AM

What exactly do you want the card to do? Tutor? Draw? Mana? Any specifications that you require (color, cc, etc.)?

Not really, a low CC is peferable.(Black and Red card's are also preferable but don't limit to them.)

kicks_422

12-06-2006, 07:13 AM

So... What role do you want the card to fill?...

xsockmonkeyx

12-06-2006, 12:18 PM

Ancestral Knowledge - Digs 10 deep, RFG things of your choosing, 2 mana. Blue mana required, setup requires upkeep, does not replace itself (no parity).

Gamble - Red, one mana, card disadvantage. Probably not on the radar.

How do you feel about 1-2 Fork?

iOWN

12-06-2006, 03:00 PM

How do you feel about 1-2 Fork?

The problem with it is that Fork is a very narrow card. Especially in a deck that doesn't often have alot of RR floating. I know both versions run Rite of Flame and Seething Song but how often will you have both RR and Fork consistantly? I could maybe see it as a 1 of but then it's kind-of pointless.

Running one fork is kind of pointless as it is not likely that you would ever tutor for it, and running it as a one-of just to be there so you can topdeck it makes it kind of inconsistent.

I've currently been testing a build that uses 2-3 MD Forks (either 2 MD 1 SB, or just 3 MD), as well as 3 FoW in the sideboard. (It also runs 4 Impulse + 4 Brainstorm as set-up and FoW pitch.) So Fork can get around counters and can help you during combo, but against decks that drop other hate, FoW is just better to have.

Kronicler

12-06-2006, 04:38 PM

Does the lack of any reply about desperate ritual mean you all think it is terrible? I've been doing some testing and it seems to speed the deck up a bit and it's just as consistent as always. We already have a lot of mana accel but more doesn't ever hurt.

Fork isn't a horrible idea as a 1 of like solidarity. I'll test it out.

Kronicler

Bryant Cook

12-06-2006, 08:29 PM

Why not just run 2 more Seething Song? I mean it gains MORE, also is it me or does Cabal Ritual suck when not threshold? Why would we want a red bad Cabal Ritual? It was in the decklist when I first started testing red rituals but they were the first things cut. Right now if the slots don't fill I'm personally going to fill my 3 with 3x Night's Whisper or 2x Seething Song and 1x Something.

xsockmonkeyx

12-06-2006, 09:14 PM

What about stuff with transmute? Is there anything with transmute that is worthwhile? Are the CC's of your targets too diverse for transmute to be effective?

emidln

12-06-2006, 10:05 PM

Bryant Cook

12-07-2006, 11:11 AM

With all the 9 shuffle effects (tutor, plunge, draw7) Brainstorm as a 3-of might not be that bad. With the threat density of the deck, a shuffle might not even be required since all you really want is a bit of optimization. Lim-dul's Vault is also a thought, although at double colored mana, it could be problematic at times, but it would be amazing if cast.

I was testing Brainstorm this morning after you, Breathweapon, and EPIC suggested I do, it wasn't as bad as I thought. It made Infernal Tutor alot better as well as Diminishing Returns(LED LEAVES A U FLOATING!). It made the turn 2 win alot easier. This is one of the cards I'm considering for the 3x open slots. I also tested Slight of Hand and found it to be less stellar, it just wasn't up to par in a way. It just didn't stick out and rarely was a great improvement.

At Transmute- It's never better than Grim Tutor or Deathwish while having the same CC and doesn't increase Storm count. Not to mention well, it's alot narrow-er than Grim Tutor and Deathwish. Which I'm not considering in the open slots.

These are what I'm currently considering...
3x Night's Whisper
3x Brainstorm
2x Seething Song and 1x Something

herbig

12-07-2006, 11:49 AM

emidln

12-07-2006, 02:59 PM

With Brainstorms in the deck you could try Doomsday as a card to tutor for. There isn't a well defined stack, but depending on your hand and board there should be many situations where you could use it.

This stack:

// top
LED
Cruel Bargain
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony
// bottom

is good for 7 storm with 2 random cards, Brainstorm, and Doomsday in hand, with BBBBU open. Assuming you have BBBBU to play the doomsday, brainstorm, dark rit, you might already have 3 storm and/or be able to cast the 2 random cards so it's possible that doomsday would be worth including as a one-of.

Bryant Cook

12-07-2006, 03:12 PM

Then you're including Bargian, 2 3cc cards that don't speed up the deck and you'll be at 5. The example seems a little sketchy, can't the deck already win with 4B,U? Seems like a win-more to me. Given I haven't tested it out yet, I just don't see it being too good. I'm not against it yet, but im not convinced it's not a win-more.

xsockmonkeyx

12-07-2006, 03:16 PM

This stack:

// top
LED
Cruel Bargain
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony
// bottom

After you play Bargain, you draw Ritual, Ritual, Tendrils and then you lose because of the last draw. No?

Nightmare

12-07-2006, 03:19 PM

You put 2 back on top with Brainstorm. You would draw LED, Ritual, Ritual, Tendrils.

xsockmonkeyx

12-07-2006, 03:27 PM

Then wouldnt the Doomsday need to be wished for instead of tutored? You wouldnt have any cards left to put back (or a brainstorm) off of a hellbent tutor.

emidln

12-07-2006, 07:07 PM

Bryant Cook

12-07-2006, 08:04 PM

Yeah, for that stack to work you need to cast doomsday with Brainstorm and 2 other cards in hand with UB floating. I'm sure there are better stacks to use, but yes, it would probably be a wish target.

It would play out like this:

Brainstorm into LED, Dark Rit, Cruel Bargain, put back 2 random cards from hand. Play LED, Play Dark rit, play Cruel Bargain (break LED for BBB in response) into 2 random cards, dark rit, and tendrils. Play Dark Rit. Play Tendrils.

If you have 1R(BurningWish) then BBB(Doomsday) then U(Brainstorm)B(DarkRitual)B(last mana needed for Tendrils) do you really want/need Doomsday? You can just win if you have 8 mana in your pool without color restrictions. My point being that Doomsday is a win more than isn't needed, we can already win with 8 mana. Now Bargain shouldn't be played. It's casting cost is draining as well as 4x random cards will more than likely not win you the game. Not to mention with this deck it cannot afford to lose 1/2 of it's life and not be garuanteed to win the game. Between Plunge into Darkness and painlands, Bargains additional cost is too much.

emidln

12-08-2006, 08:09 AM

If you have 1R(BurningWish) then BBB(Doomsday) then U(Brainstorm)B(DarkRitual)B(last mana needed for Tendrils) do you really want/need Doomsday? You can just win if you have 8 mana in your pool without color restrictions. My point being that Doomsday is a win more than isn't needed, we can already win with 8 mana. Now Bargain shouldn't be played. It's casting cost is draining as well as 4x random cards will more than likely not win you the game. Not to mention with this deck it cannot afford to lose 1/2 of it's life and not be garuanteed to win the game. Between Plunge into Darkness and painlands, Bargains additional cost is too much.

You actually only need 1RBBU, Burning Wish, 2 random cards, in hand, brainstorm, and dark rit to win with a Doomsday in the board.

Pay 1R, Burning Wish for Doomsday (BBU floating)
Pay B, Play Dark Rit (BBBBU floating)
Pay BBB, play Doomsday finding LED, Dark Rit, Cruel Bargain, Dark Rit, Tendrils
Pay U, play Brainstorm into LED, Dark Rit, Cruel Bargain, put back 2 random cards (B floating, your library is random card #1, random card#2, dark rit, tendrils)
Pay B, play Dark Rit (BBB floating)
Pay 0, play LED (BBB floating)
Pay BBB, play Cruel Bargain, in response, break LED for BBB (BBB floating, random card #1, random card #2, dark rit, and tendrils in hand)
Pay B to play Dark Rit (BBBBB floating)
Pay BBBB to play Tendrils of Agony (B floating)

that 1RBBU could be many configurations of 1-2 land, a lotus petal chrome mox, and 1-2 rituals. I don't think it's win more as it is a win in some non-obvious situations if you know to look for it, but it would require a cruel barrgain/infernal contract MD to use in your doomsday stacks. It may not be viable for that reason, but it's not win more, unless you can prove that any time you have 1RBBBBU you that you can win the game with only Burning Wish, Brainstorm, and random cards in hand. If you make BBBB off Dark Rit + Cabal Rit (for example), IGG would be worthless, Diminishing returns uncastable, Empty the Warrens uncastable, and your outs being a draw4 or draw5 (since you seem to have cut the tutor from your board).

Edit:

Actually, going through the stacks, there is a really saucy IGG stack with Brainstorm, 2 cards, and 1UB open:

Infernal Tutor
LED
LED
Tendrils
IGG

1) Brainstorm
2) LED
3) LED
4) IT
5) IGG
6) LED
7) LED
8) IT
9) Tendrils

which means you only need 1 more spell in your initial hand to win once you get doomsday. So if you went turn 1 Rite of Flame, Burning Wish -> Doomsday, turn 2 you could easily win if you have a lotus petal/dark rit, 2 petals, a chrome mox and a card + a rit of some sort, etc.

xsockmonkeyx

12-08-2006, 01:12 PM

Nice work on the Doomsday stacks, its interesting reading. But...

If you have 1R(BurningWish) then BBB(Doomsday) then U(Brainstorm)B(DarkRitual)B(last mana needed for Tendrils) do you really want/need Doomsday?

Probably not. There has to be a better way to go about winning the game with those resources available. Wasted, Im looking at you. Besides, its like a 3-4 card combo in your hand, how often will that be available?

Bryant Cook

12-08-2006, 02:45 PM

You actually only need 1RBBU, Burning Wish, 2 random cards, in hand, brainstorm, and dark rit to win with a Doomsday in the board.

Pay 1R, Burning Wish for Doomsday (BBU floating)
Pay B, Play Dark Rit (BBBBU floating)
Pay BBB, play Doomsday finding LED, Dark Rit, Cruel Bargain, Dark Rit, Tendrils
Pay U, play Brainstorm into LED, Dark Rit, Cruel Bargain, put back 2 random cards (B floating, your library is random card #1, random card#2, dark rit, tendrils)
Pay B, play Dark Rit (BBB floating)
Pay 0, play LED (BBB floating)
Pay BBB, play Cruel Bargain, in response, break LED for BBB (BBB floating, random card #1, random card #2, dark rit, and tendrils in hand)
Pay B to play Dark Rit (BBBBB floating)
Pay BBBB to play Tendrils of Agony (B floating)

that 1RBBU could be many configurations of 1-2 land, a lotus petal chrome mox, and 1-2 rituals. I don't think it's win more as it is a win in some non-obvious situations if you know to look for it, but it would require a cruel barrgain/infernal contract MD to use in your doomsday stacks. It may not be viable for that reason, but it's not win more, unless you can prove that any time you have 1RBBBBU you that you can win the game with only Burning Wish, Brainstorm, and random cards in hand. If you make BBBB off Dark Rit + Cabal Rit (for example), IGG would be worthless, Diminishing returns uncastable, Empty the Warrens uncastable, and your outs being a draw4 or draw5 (since you seem to have cut the tutor from your board).

Edit:

Actually, going through the stacks, there is a really saucy IGG stack with Brainstorm, 2 cards, and 1UB open:

Infernal Tutor
LED
LED
Tendrils
IGG

1) Brainstorm
2) LED
3) LED
4) IT
5) IGG
6) LED
7) LED
8) IT
9) Tendrils

which means you only need 1 more spell in your initial hand to win once you get doomsday. So if you went turn 1 Rite of Flame, Burning Wish -> Doomsday, turn 2 you could easily win if you have a lotus petal/dark rit, 2 petals, a chrome mox and a card + a rit of some sort, etc.

This implies that you also had an extra Dark Ritual in the first hand. Where are you getting the mana to cast both Doomsday AND Cruel Bargain off 1 Dark Ritual? This is where I said the BBB came from, you would need too many specific cards to win with Doomsday to make it worth while. If I have 1RBBBBU in my pool, I should sure as hell be able to win with Ill-Gotten Gains and who say's Diminishing Returns is uncastable at that point? If you are able to create 3 colors that turn and have a colorless which could be a blue or you could just tap your lands differently to create UU. How is Empty the Warrens uncastable? If you're casting Burning Wish you could always get IGG for Tutor or just not use whatever source you used for the U for the red.

Kronicler

12-08-2006, 02:56 PM

Regardless of how unlikely it is, it can still work, and because I never EVER use recoup i'm gona replace it with doomsday in the board. BTW I've been extensively testing brainstorm and it is quite a beast. I'm never unhappy to see it in my hand and it definately speeds up the deck a bit. My two friends who play gobos, solidarity, and salvagers are sick of playing against TES because it wins to quickly :-D.

Also, I'm going to probably a 20-30 person tourney this weekend. There is almost no combo in the meta so they are quite unprepared. Wish me luck!

Kronicler

emidln

12-08-2006, 06:22 PM

This implies that you also had an extra Dark Ritual in the first hand. Where are you getting the mana to cast both Doomsday AND Cruel Bargain off 1 Dark Ritual? This is where I said the BBB came from, you would need too many specific cards to win with Doomsday to make it worth while. If I have 1RBBBBU in my pool, I should sure as hell be able to win with Ill-Gotten Gains and who say's Diminishing Returns is uncastable at that point? If you are able to create 3 colors that turn and have a colorless which could be a blue or you could just tap your lands differently to create UU. How is Empty the Warrens uncastable? If you're casting Burning Wish you could always get IGG for Tutor or just not use whatever source you used for the U for the red.

The second dark ritual comes after you Brainstorm into it from your doomsday pile. You need 1RBBBBU. I was suggesting that you would probably get that from a Dark Ritual so it would in reality be 1RBBU, which itself may come from other rituals. Cruel Bargain comes after you Brainstorm into Cruel Bargain, Dark Rit, and LED.

If you use 1R to get IGG then you cannot replay your Burning Wish to find Empty the Warrens as it is RFG. That rules out Empty the Warrens unless you have it in hand already (and then it would be silly to try something as complex as doomsday when you can just win). In fact, with only Burning Wish as the tutor in hand, you would have to get Doomsday or a draw spell to get out of the situation. If you did have 1RBBBBU and a tutor, then you should obviously use the tutor, but Doomsday would be functioning as a last resort that doesn't draw random cards.

Bryant Cook

12-10-2006, 05:35 PM

The second dark ritual comes after you Brainstorm into it from your doomsday pile. You need 1RBBBBU. I was suggesting that you would probably get that from a Dark Ritual so it would in reality be 1RBBU, which itself may come from other rituals. Cruel Bargain comes after you Brainstorm into Cruel Bargain, Dark Rit, and LED.

If you use 1R to get IGG then you cannot replay your Burning Wish to find Empty the Warrens as it is RFG. That rules out Empty the Warrens unless you have it in hand already (and then it would be silly to try something as complex as doomsday when you can just win). In fact, with only Burning Wish as the tutor in hand, you would have to get Doomsday or a draw spell to get out of the situation. If you did have 1RBBBBU and a tutor, then you should obviously use the tutor, but Doomsday would be functioning as a last resort that doesn't draw random cards.

But your not garaunteed to get other rituals so it still costs 1RBBBBU; you can't use well if I draw X in an arguemnt. I still disagree with Doomsday maindeck and/or sideboard, speaking of which I currently have changed the sideboard also. After rereading this thread a few times there was one list(That wasn't mine, I'm pretty sure it was Anti-Americans) that had something I thought was a great idea, cutting rebuild for 2x Shattering spree. After testing Shattering Spree was better 60% of the time. Although I rarely Burning Wish for 2x Artifact removal, so that's not the reason if it was anyone elses.

You were right on the Empty the Warrens, I was thinking of something else. But... You could've just use the mana source that gave you blue for a red and Burning Wish-> Warrens, instead of playing such a narrow card.Narrow in the means of needing 1RBBBBU and 2 cards.

@Kronicler- Good luck! ... if it didn't happen already... and if it did how did you do?

Kronicler

12-11-2006, 01:06 AM

So just got back from the tournament and here is the list I played:

Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Rite of Flame
3 Seething Song
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Lands
4 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard
1 Cave-In
1 Cleanfall
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Doomsday
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Rebuild
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Defense Grid

So I ended up going 2-2 and here is how the day went:

Round 1: Daniel playing BW Confidant

Game 1 - This game went pretty much how you would expect it to go... he made me discard a lot of cards and I was 1 mana off comboing like 5 times and then I lost. GG.

Game 2 - He duressed on turn 1 and I brainstormed in response hiding some good stuff, then he hymmed me on turn 2 but missed the important cards. Turn 3 I barely managed to go off thanks to a nice top deck and made 12 1/1s. He died 2 turns later.

Game 3 - He started with ritual into hippie and I knew I had to win first turn. Luckily I had an ok hand, but after thinking about all the possibilities I realized that what it came down to was petal -> brainstorm with lots of praying before hand. If I got an LED I won. Otherwise, I lost. I brainstormed and, thank god, LED was the 3rd card! Tendrils for 26 turn 1 FTW! I really couldn't believe I pulled this win off considering that the matchup really isn't a good one for TES.

1-0

Round 2: Galen playing IGGy Pop

Game 1: I've never tested this match before but I figured I was simply faster than him so I wasn't to worried. He started with a Leyline in play which I gave a little frown to, but I managed to go off turn 3 with Diminishing Returns. For everyone out there who says this card is bad, you are WRONG... though there is a possibility of drawing a terrible hand and fizzling, so use it wisely.

Game 2: He once again starts with Leyline in play, but this time I don't have any LEDs in my hand. He does the whole mind twist thing on turn 2, the turn before I was going to go off, and combos out the turn after. :-(.

Game 3: 3rd time in a row he starts with a leyline in play (f*ck that sh*t) and mind twists me on turn 2 again. I could have gone off turn 1 if he hadn't had the leyline, but oh well. It turned out that leyline slowed me down just enough (about a turn, maybe 2) that he comboed first. Plus that mind twist play is just stupid in general.

1-1

Round 3: Mike playing MUC

Game 1: I started with a turn 1 xantid which he forced. I was a little short of mana to go off turn 2, and the second he hit 2 mana I knew that was prety much game. He ended up countering 2 more xantids and all 3 of my tutors the turn I eventually tried to go off, and after that I just conceded.

I sided out 4 brainstorm for defence grid.

Game 2: I kept a kinda crappy hand because it had a defence grid and a xantid swarm, but he ended up forcing both then dropping a chalice at 0 and 1, and it was GG from there.

Afterwards a friend told me that there was a turn when I could have done something with empty the warrens (it had been in my hand) but in the end it didn't matter as mike was holding a morphling and 2 ophidian. Looking back I don't think this matchup is quite as terrible as it seemed while I was playing it. If you resolve a piece of protection within the first few turns or simply win then you are ok. But if they can survive to 2 lands then you lose. What it really comes down to is how many forces do they have.

1-2 :-(

Round 4 - Morgan playing Gobos

Game 1: I was so happy to see his play of mountain -> lackey, and when I comboed out on turn 2 I didn't even have to do anything fancy with IGG or DReturns. I just used 2 plunges and a lot of accel and tendrilsed him for exactly 20.

Game 2: He sided in some secret tech which ended up being tormods. While I was going off on 3rd turn I infernaled for a second rite of flame while he had a crypt on the board forgetting that it would prevent my second rite from producing an extra mana. That 1 mana ended up making all the diference and I had only 3 mana when I went to cast empty the warrens :-(.

Game 3: I don't much remember, I went off turn 2 or something and won.

2-2

Considering I got paired up against BW Confidant AND MUC, both bad matchups, I think I did pretty well. One thing that I noticed was that I definately didn't miss the cabal pits, grapeshot, or diminishing returns maindeck.

My biggest problem with the deck right now is 12 cards: the chrome moxes, the xantid swarms, and the brainstorms.

Chrome mox is ok, but with 8 off color cards maindeck it becomes a whole lot worse. Also, you almost never want to draw 2 chrome moxes. With this in mind going to take one out and maybe put the last seething song in the slot.

Xantid Swarm is an amazing card against anything with counterspells, but otherwise it is completely dead. It makes brainstorms and diminishing returns worse, and is horrible in multiples or with chrome mox. It's really a conflict of interest because when you want xantid you want it ASAP, but when you don't want it you never want to see it. I really don't know how to solve this problem besides changing xantids to duresses. Duress is useful in a lot more matches than xantid and is useless in almost none. It can also be pitched to chrome mox for black rather than green (lol). I'm definately going to be testing this slot out a lot.

Brainstorm is frickin absurd. A lot of the time it is basically an ancestral recall and guarantees a win the turn after it is cast. It can dig for whatever you need as well as protect you from discard. The problem comes when you don't get a good 3 cards off of brainstorm. Then you are stuck with bad draws for 2 turns (a lifetime in this deck) because we only have a few shuffle effects. The obvious solution to this is to add fetchlands. With xantid swarm in the deck that is impossible, but if we put in four duresses instead of xantids then we are left with only 3 colors, and a 3 color fetch/dual land mana base is no less stable than what we currently run. We also all know the advantages of running fetch lands in general, so I think this is an attractive option.

After a little tweaking here is my new list:

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Rite of Flame
3 Seething Song
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Lands
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Cave-In
1 Cleanfall
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Bayou

Once I finish my final exams this thursday I'll be testing this list a lot, but for now I gotta go study. Wait a sec.... wtf was I doing playing magic all day the weekend before finals?!?!?

Kronicler

Bryant Cook

12-11-2006, 03:31 PM

My biggest problem with the deck right now is 12 cards: the chrome moxes, the xantid swarms, and the brainstorms.

Chrome mox is ok, but with 8 off color cards maindeck it becomes a whole lot worse. Also, you almost never want to draw 2 chrome moxes. With this in mind going to take one out and maybe put the last seething song in the slot.

Xantid Swarm is an amazing card against anything with counterspells, but otherwise it is completely dead. It makes brainstorms and diminishing returns worse, and is horrible in multiples or with chrome mox. It's really a conflict of interest because when you want xantid you want it ASAP, but when you don't want it you never want to see it. I really don't know how to solve this problem besides changing xantids to duresses. Duress is useful in a lot more matches than xantid and is useless in almost none. It can also be pitched to chrome mox for black rather than green (lol). I'm definately going to be testing this slot out a lot.

Brainstorm is frickin absurd. A lot of the time it is basically an ancestral recall and guarantees a win the turn after it is cast. It can dig for whatever you need as well as protect you from discard. The problem comes when you don't get a good 3 cards off of brainstorm. Then you are stuck with bad draws for 2 turns (a lifetime in this deck) because we only have a few shuffle effects. The obvious solution to this is to add fetchlands. With xantid swarm in the deck that is impossible, but if we put in four duresses instead of xantids then we are left with only 3 colors, and a 3 color fetch/dual land mana base is no less stable than what we currently run. We also all know the advantages of running fetch lands in general, so I think this is an attractive option.

Chrome Mox is a nessesary evil, I hate to say it but it's true. The deck simply cannot run without them, because without Chrome Mox the deck is 3.5 color Iggy Pop because our turn 2 consistant wins are now 3-4. 8 Off color cards are a problem? Since when? I run more than you and I'm fine with it. Imprinting a Xantid Swarm in a match-up that it is not needed is fine, just think of it as colorless mana. The deck does run cards that have 1 before the R or B.

Xantid Swarm is amazing against decks with counterspells, I agree 100%. Now ask yourself this... What are TES's bad match-ups? Blue being in 90% of all of them. Now would you rather have a card that says I WIN THE GAME IF I RESOLVE or I take away a counterspell leaving you with more? I personally love cards that say I win the game. Xantid Swarm doesn't need to be an all around card because we win match-ups that he's not needed in. Why does Duress imprinted on Chrome Mox more important than Xantid Swarm, if neither card is needed you should be winning anyways regardless of the color mana it produces.

I agree on Brainstorm's nuttyness. However you're wrong on cutting Xantid for Duress, you'll see it soon enough. I noticed your MD doesn't include Grapeshot, I've always been an advocate of MD Grapeshot. But after I went down to 1 Seething Song, I was thinking what if I cut it for a MD Defense Grid for a better Threshold match-up. Then I thought well I could cut Grapeshot for another Seething Song, but then I thought what about cutting a Xantid AND the lone Seething Song for 2x Defense Grid. These are all options I'm considering. But I'm still thinking about it before testing, because I don't want to cut Grapeshot, it's been so good to me.

Eldariel

12-11-2006, 03:36 PM

How about City of Solitude? As a Faerie Stompy-player, I must say that I wouldn't be least bit intimidated by a Defense Grid, since by the time I'm going to be utilizing my FoWs with you having a Grid in play, it'll be a breeze for me to keep 3 open. City of Solitude is unconditional; it just says 'no'. It costs G more, which I'd assume could be a problem as you're going to need some acceleration to resolve it, but the finalness of it seems to make up for that.

Nightmare

12-11-2006, 03:40 PM

Kronicler

12-11-2006, 04:16 PM

I think eldariel is advocating for city of solitude over defence grid, not over xantid swarm.

Wasted: I agree with you about the power of xantid swarm, but in order to optimize brainstorm's usefulness I think we need to be able to use fetches and duals in our mana base.

I also think you underestimate the power of duress. Against our bad matchups all we really have to do is take out their FOW and then we win. If they have something else ontop of FOW like another FOW or a daze or a stifle etc. then they would have just FOWed the Xantid and then used their other card to trip us up. If xantid resolves then we win, but the only time that will happen is if they don't have a counter therefore it doesn't matter. If xantid is countered then it functions exactly like duress by removing 1 of the counters in their hand.

The only time xantid is better than duress is if they topdeck a counter after we duress them. I think this possibility is far outweighed by duresses color and greater usefulness in more matches. Because it is black not only is it better with chrome mox but you can duress them mid combo right before you tutor. Bet they won't see that comming :-). I haven't tested it yet so I can't say this with 100% certainty but, after thinking about it a lot I'm of the opinion that duress is a better choice.

In terms of chrome mox I don't think they give the deck its speed. They do help sometimes, but they hurt a lot more than they help when you get 2 in a hand. Because of this I think that taking them down to 3 won't hurt the deck at all, and as that spot is taken by a fetch land it could really help the deck with greater consistency in finding land yet decreasing the chance of drawing into land with your Bstorm / Dreturns.

Kronicler

zorrikon

12-11-2006, 05:55 PM

Duress is also much more relevant in the BW Confidant (or any disruption based deck) and combo match-up. Not playing any creatures MD can also be an advantage in many match-ups. I'm not sure which is better, though, Cabal Therapy or Duress. If you're playing Trinket Mage (which I'm still not convinced is bad-- the deck has a certain dependency on Lion's Eye Diamond), then Cabal Therapy is probably better. I've been playing 2 of each, and it has worked out better than Swarm so far.

Bryant Cook

12-11-2006, 06:07 PM

All we have to do is take thier force? This is why alot of Iggy list don't play Duress anymore. It comes back with Ill-Gotten Gains or if they draw a force off of Diminishing Returns. Have you ever heard of card disadvantage? Force removes an additional card, where duress only takes one. If they counter Xantid they still have other counters? Is that your arguement? If so how is that any different than Duress? I personally wouldn't want to wait until mid- combo to find out if I am going to win, I want a gauranteed win.

I could see a Chrome Mox being cut for a land, but I personally like 4x Chrome mox.

Eldariel

12-11-2006, 06:27 PM

Why would you run City of Solitude at 2G, when you can run a 1 sided City of Solitude at G?

Indeed, I meant, as he was brainstorming for Defense Grid, I'd imagine Citys would make for better Swarms 5-6 than Grids. Then again, I can see the manacost being prohibitive.

Alfred

12-11-2006, 06:40 PM

Brainstorm optimization versus Xantid Swarm is an interesting debate. Xantid Swarm is great against Solidarity, but not so much against Thresh, basically because you make their otherwise dead creature removal useful.

Wastedlife makes a great point though, as IGG and Diminishing Returns make Force of Will an issue, even when Duressed away. Those are two of the most powerful cards in the deck, and they become liabilities unless Xantid Swarm is involved.

Brainstorm is obviously a card that this deck wants to abuse, because it's the best hand optimization card in Legacy at the moment, and becomes almost broken when paired with fetchlands.

I'll have to do a bit of testing myself on the issue, but I think I'm leaning towards something more like Kron's list right now.

Kronicler

12-11-2006, 06:41 PM

Arg... I forgot about IGG recuring FOWs and the such. Meh, I dunno, I love xantid and brainstorm but I think 1 of them has to go in order for us to use a better mana base. If we keep xantid maybe we switch brainstorm for night's whisper? I love brainstorm though. I really need to test out the lists before I keep posting, lol.

Bryant Cook

12-11-2006, 06:51 PM

Why does Brainstorm without fetchlands matter if you are winning turns 1-2? Also City of Solitude costs too much for protection.

Alfred

12-11-2006, 07:01 PM

Why does Brainstorm without fetchlands matter if you are winning turns 1-2? Also City of Solitude costs too much for protection.

From my calculations, this deck wins on turn 3 almost half the time.

Bryant Cook

12-11-2006, 07:44 PM

From my calculations, this deck wins on turn 3 almost half the time.

You are playing it wrong.

Kronicler

12-11-2006, 08:07 PM

Bryant Cook

12-11-2006, 08:21 PM

I think that turn 2 is the most common combo turn and turn 3 is slightly more common than turn 1.

The reason you want fetches to use with your brainstorm is if you don't hit what you need to combo then you have to wait 2 more turns before you even draw a new card.

Kronicler

I'm aware of this, after all I'm not mentally challenged. However the threat density of TES is very high and more than likely you'll find something to help or a Tutor. Which is why I believe this deck doesn't need shuffling effects. I'm perfectly happy with 5c lands, and I refuse to cut Xantid Swarm for a sub-optimal card just so I can shuffle my deck.

Kronicler

12-11-2006, 09:53 PM

Woah, my post was not an attack on you or your level of intelligence. The fact that I'm playing this deck is a testament to how smart I think you are.

Kronicler

Bryant Cook

12-12-2006, 08:46 PM

Lands
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Cabal Pit
1 Forbidden Orchard

Creatures
3 Xantid Swarm

Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Rite of Flame
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Brainstorm
2 Defense Grid

Sideboard
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Tranquility
SB: 2 Compost

You'll notice some changes such as the removal of Seething Song, I'd rather have added protection than a random 1x of Seething Song. The sideboard has changed alot since the last list, Compost was added to make the deck all around better. Now that the control match-up is 50% or higher, I wanted to improve on the one other bad match-up Hate(sui-black variants). Another option is Spiritual focus but it's a little bit more narrow.

Bane of the Living

12-12-2006, 09:29 PM

Have you taken this to any tournaments besides the mana clash? Id like to see some actual results to back up the deck. It would be a shame to see another tendrils deck slip away due to lack of interest and results.

Bryant Cook

12-12-2006, 09:39 PM

I have to work on Sundays which is the day our store has the pathetic 8 person Legacy events. So no; I haven't played it since then, but I plan on playing it at Geneseo and GP Columbus.

Citrus-God

12-14-2006, 08:54 PM

I like the Defense Grids in here, but I liked the fact I can pitch extra Swarms to Mox. The additions of Composts are really nice against Black based Tempo decks. I like the Brainstorms, as 2nd turn wins are tech.

Seeing as Wastedlife is busy right now, he wont be able to attend tournaments. Luckily, MWS exists, as well as good players with AIM. So Wastedlife does all his playtesting by MWS, but with good players as well.

b4r0n

12-14-2006, 11:12 PM

With 3 Empty the Warrens between the maindeck and the sideboard, do you think it might be better to run a different land over Forbidden Orchard? It seems that something like Tendo Ice Bridge, Undiscovered Paradise, or even a dual might be a better choice as a singleton, as none of those interfere with one of your potential win conditions.

A couple general questions on how you play the deck:

1) How much life do you typically spend on a Plunge? How much does this depend on the matchup, and how much do you spend when goldfishing?
2) What do you find yourself Wishing for most often? Similarly, which win condition do you find that you're using the most?
3) How aggressively do you typically have to mulligan?

Citrus-God

12-16-2006, 09:39 AM

Well... heres the thing.... you cant ever use Tendo-Ice Bridge or Undiscovered Paradise, as you want to slowplay against Control, such as Thresh. What you want is a strong midgame, then you combo off. Running Tendo-Ice Bridge will stop you from optimizing further more, as you want Brainstorms, Burning Wish, Plunges, and Infernal Tutors to be played when your not in the process of comboing off.

And to answer your questions:

1. Depends what I play against. Against a deck like Burn, I dont want to spend a low, maybe around 3-6. Versus Goblins/Affinity, you have to analyze your hand how fast you can win the next turn, which helps you judge the amount of life you have to spend. A deck like Thresh is maybe 4 or 5 for me. Opposing Combo decks is going to be a huge sum usually, as I want to win before they do.

2. Tendrils of Agony, but if I cant budget the mana anymore in increasing the Storm count, I wish for Empty the Warrens. Grapeshot is also a good option if you use your black mana on mana recursions, and all you have left is Red. I do this quite often as well. Also, another time, my Tendrils cant reach all the way to that 20 mark, and I had 4 mana left and a Tutor/Wish, which I used to grab a Grapeshot for reach.

3. With the addition of Brainstorms, I has less mana problems, so I dont mulligan as much, and around 75%-85% that your Brainstorm will ensure you a 2nd turn kill if you played Brainstorm turn 1.

Citrus-God

12-21-2006, 10:57 PM

So I had a thing at school.... it's truancy.... I dont skip classes really, it's just that I wake up late a lot... around 30 min-1 hour. I had to have a parent look at my record, and was scolded at by my butch lesbian mother who divorced my dad because she tends to e more manly than him. Because this happened, I had a ride, how great was that!

So I walked him, and paid my five. I was sitting there singing "You Cant Always Get What You Want" excessively. People there hate me, and hardly know me, so what else can I say.

Also, heres my list

// Lands 10
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Forbidden Orcahrd

// Protection 5
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Defens Grid

// Spells 45
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Death Wish
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Brainstorm
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

// Sideboard 15
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cave-In
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Compost
3 Shattering Spree

No Therapies in the SB sadly. I dont run Grapeshot, as I love ETW much more. I crashed into a lot of Meddling Mages... but Angel Stompy is a slowass deck. RG Beatz and The Rock were byes for me. Random shit Round 1 is a sweet ass start.

Round 1: UG Madness

This guy is new... no Wastelands, no Dazes, and no FoW! Mana Leak is not hard for me to handle, and he cant Madness on my turn because of Defense Grid.

Game 1: I was on the play

I had a hand of

Xantid Swarm
Dark Ritual
Chrome Mox
Lion's Eye Diamond
Cabal Ritual
and 2 Tutors I think.

I can do this. I played Brainstorm after he played Island. Turn 2, I went Xantid Swarm, and I knew he was safe. He played Mongrel, so I comboed out Turn 3.

Game 2:

He kept, I had to mull as I had 3 Moxes in my opening hand.

He went 1st Turn Rootwalla. I drew a fucking god hand of 3 Rite of Flames, 2 Petals, Empty the Warrens, and 1 Dark Rit. So I made a fuckton of tokens, and he died 2 turns after I comboed.

2-0 SWEET!

I walked around and bought some cards... like crappy uncommons, like Hail Storms and a huge pile of Hydroblasts, and a stack of Portents. I found a couple miscut Hydroblasts!

Round 2: UW Angel Stompy

I was on the play. I kept a hand with Brainstorms, Defense Grid, 2 lands, and more stuff like a LED and D. Returns. I was about to BS away. He went 1st turn Strand. I went EOT BS, -> Defense Grid. He played a Mage, and thought for a bit. I told him to play it on Tendrils of Agony, and he said I'm a dumbass for trying to throw him off. He called Burning Wish, and passed the turn.
Then I came in with a fuckton of mana, Deminishing Returns (didnt find a tutor), got like 3 Burning Wishes and no other tutors... I was fucked. I shouldn't have played it impulsively.

Game 2 I went killed him 1st turn with 2 Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Land, and 2 LED as my opening hand. God I'm a fucking lucky.

Game 3 I mulled down to 4 because my deck mana flooded me with Chrome Moxes, or I didnt get lands/Mox/petals and a fuckton of Ritual effects. That fucker beats me down with 2 fucking lions.... how humiliating.

No way for me to get 1st place now.... 1-1. Fucking Angel Stompy, and those ****** stuffed animals (Lions), Fairies (Efreet), and Angels. I mean, that is just gay... and Stifles too.

I was buying cards from people because the store decides to jack up prices on shit like SoFI. I bought them for $6 a piece. Take that fuckers! Anyways, all I need now are some German/French... the art isnt shit. I bought some Dr. Pepper, and made sure I looked original... goddamn, I look gay, and being gay isnt original, but I looked good anyways. Take that you sucky college students, and your windshield breaking habits! I was cocky today... I'm usually not that cocky, but it happened. Anyways, parings were up, and yes, I was so fucking ready.

Round 3: The Rock

Game 1, I kept a semi-decent hand on the Draw, with a good amount of mana, a Infernal Tutor, and a Burning Wish. He played a 1st turn Duress and stole a Wish. I topdecked an LED... I was so happy at that point. My hand was like

LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
City of Brass
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual

I had to go off. I went off, IGG like 3 times with 2 LED and the same fucking Infernal Tutor.

Game 2:

My first Plunge of the day... Finally. He mulled like 3 times. He went 1st turn Birds. I played a land, go. He played Troll Ascetic. I played land, Compost, go. He played a Therapy and Saced wall. I lost my plunge and a Dark Rit in the process. I later built my hand back up after like 3 turns of Troll beatz. he played a Duress and recurred it with Witness. He said he wished he left deeds in there, since it can kill off that Compost. I drew enough cards, and I went off with Infernal Tutor ->, D. Returns, crack LED, and I won with ETW since he told me he had no Deeds in the Board.

2-1. I need one more win, and I get a shitty pack.

Round 4: Vial Goblins:

Game 1: I know this guy, and he plays Goblins a lot. He knows I played Thresh, so he went 1st turn Lackey. I had a busted hand. I went Mox, Land, go. he hit me with Lackey, and dropped Warcheif, then a Matron for Piledriver. I went EOT Plunge and grabbed myself an LED. Like a champ, I topdecked a Dark Ritual, and I went all out with Diminishing Returns.

Game 2: He got Pillers and REB to counter my Returns and Brainstorms... fucker.

Game 3: I got sexy 1st turn win. I had like

1 LED
3 Rite of Flames
1 Burning Wish
1 Orchard
1 Lotus Petal

That can do a lot of damage right? So I played out my whole hand, played Burning Wish, cracked LED while it was on the stack BBBRRRRR, grabbed Infernal Tutor, and played Tutor BBRRR, grabbed IGG, crack petal BRR. Recur Rite of Flame, LED, and Infernal Tutor. Played Rite BRRRR, played Tutor, and cracked LED. I had Tendrils for 20 exactly.

I came back home dissapointed with a fucking pack... but that was my first tournament with TES. I am happy to say I like the deck, but I wish there was
more control. That mistake I made against Angel Stompy was crap. I knew I could've done better, but I was friggin' tired. Gawd I need some actual sleep.

Bryant Cook

12-22-2006, 08:33 PM

Great report! You made a few mistakes but atleast you recognized them. I like the fact that you know and understand the power of Returns its sooo good. I'm currently writing a painfully long article on TES, not sure if I want it in the primer board here or to SCG. What do you think?

Citrus-God

12-22-2006, 10:16 PM

Yeah.. that game against Angel Stompy was hell for me. I was way too impulsive. *sigh.

Anyways, I love this deck, it's so fucking explosive. I need to judge my 1st turn kills hands much better.

BiscuitVader

12-22-2006, 11:06 PM

How have you guys been doing in your Threshold matchups?
The addition of Grid in the maindeck has helped me, but the lack of Therapy lets then FoW/Daze.

kicks_422

12-22-2006, 11:20 PM

I run an almost similar list to Anti-American, with some few tweaks.

-1 Forbidden Orchard
+1 Gemstone Mine
+2 Cabal Pit

-3 Xantid Swarm
-2 Defense Grid
+4 Duress
+1 Infernal Tutor

-4 Plunge into Darkness
+4 Spoils of the Vault

-1 Empty the Warrens
+1 Tendrils of Agony

And my SB looks like this:

1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Cave-In
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Shattering Spree

The Grids and Swarms were sometimes irrelevant, while Duress at least lets you peek at their hand to judge how much work you need to do. I can board in the Swarms if I'm going against countermagic.

I went with Spoils instead of Plunge because I'll be sure that I'll be getting what I want. I'm tired of Plunging for 10 and seeing nothing but mana and lands when I need a tutor/wish or vice-versa. Sure, it sometimes kills me, but when you're playing Storm combo in Legacy, speed is such a major factor. I'd rather Spoils for LED Turn 1 EOT and have a remote chance of killing myself than set-up with Plunge at Turn 2 EOT.

@BiscuitVader:
Honestly, I've never had too much trouble with Thresh. They need 3 Mages to actually come remotely close to shutting you off (Wish, Tendrils, ETW), but even then, Death Wish and Cabal Pits can get rid of them. They also absolutely need a FoW in hand to match up against you, which can be taken care of by Duress, and once you test on the match-up more, you'll learn how to play around Daze.

Winning on Turn 2 regularly is no joke. This deck could really become a contender if more people pick it up.

Bryant Cook

12-22-2006, 11:21 PM

My Threshold match-ups are generally anywhere from 45% to 55% depending on the player. I'd consider the average threshold player about 50%. Main deck Defense grid is amazing! If they would've forced a Therapy or Dazed it's basically an equivalent; Even if they do force or dazed it you therapied for 1 more at a change to win the game.

EDIT:: I just read Kick's post, I disagree with you on Spoils of the Vault completelty. Maybe after the article/primer comes out you'll understand it more often since theres a part on playing Plunge correctly. Other wise I agree with you, I've never not found what I want off a Plunge for 10. You can't Plunge looking for specifics, Plunging looking for a LED can sometimes gruesome when not found but a Thresh'd Cabal Ritual does the same thing. That's what you need to be thinking when you cast it.

Finally; someone agrees with me winning on turn 2 isn't a lie, this deck is incredibly consistant and explosive.

Citrus-God

12-24-2006, 03:41 AM

Problem is that this deck takes a ton of skill. That's where the stupid Solidarity thing comes up, as a lot of people might not be able to play right at all.

Also, Xantid Swarm it so sexy. People literally send their Counters to the bottom of their Library with Serum Visions looking for Swords. That is one thing I love seeing like everytime I sit across from Thresh. I might consider cutting my Death Wish for my 4th Xantid Swarm.

Bryant Cook

12-25-2006, 10:14 AM

I'm currently in a delimma; I can't decided between 2 Tendrils of Agony and 1 Empty the Warrens or 2 Empty the Warrens and 1 Tendrils. What do you think? Both have thier advantages but lately I've been deciding on which option and can't decided between the two, believe it or not it makes a huge difference.

Citrus-God

12-25-2006, 02:31 PM

you only need 1 ToA, as multiples clog your hand, whereas EtW, allows you still win after an Aggro-Control deck tries and pressure you into going off early. ToA is good, but also quite demanding in terms of conditions. I would vote for 2 EtW, and 1 ToA.

BiscuitVader

12-25-2006, 02:38 PM

I would say two IGG. I have been running two, and they have been working great.

It makes going off via Tendrils so much easier.

Bryant Cook

12-25-2006, 02:47 PM

I would say two IGG. I have been running two, and they have been working great.

It makes going off via Tendrils so much easier.

How so? Really, after you cast the first one you'll have a high enough storm count to kill anyways. What would a second accomplish that isn't already there.

BiscuitVader

12-25-2006, 03:34 PM

How so? Really, after you cast the first one you'll have a high enough storm count to kill anyways. What would a second accomplish that isn't already there.
It lets you draw the one you need to get your Storm Count high enough to kill with Tendrils easier.

Test it, it has been working wonders for me... But, I guess the spot really comes down to meta and play style (Sharpshooter kills EtW, so I like Tendril kills best against the group I play with).

emidln

12-25-2006, 09:02 PM

rsaunder

12-26-2006, 10:48 AM

If you can tutor up both on demand, then the 3rd is marginally useful in these situations:

You draw the 2nd copy randomly. If you have 9 storm then Tendrils is obv better. If you don't, ETW would be better.

You have 10 mana and tendrils + tutor. Tendrils is a lot better here since you can go double Tendrils.

You need a specific color mana off Chrome Mox. This normally happens with black for me, but could be red. This would require some analysis. Whichever color you need more may be the way to lean.

It seems that double tendrils and a need for black mana would push me into the 2nd Tendrils, especially since ETW is not a sure kill.I'll second that motion. I've found that going for a double tendrils kill against control with any combo deck like this is never a bad idea. Especially since ETW can still have an extra copy in the SB for thresh.

The one option I don't like is the extra IGG MB. I always hate drawing my ONE copy, and will toss it away with a brainstorm if I can. I can't imagine having to do that twice as often.

Bryant Cook

12-28-2006, 11:37 AM

I did some testing against Emildn last night with TES against several decks(RGB control, UGW Thresh, URW control, SI, Deadguy, and Iggy Pop) after all the dust had cleared I was 18-5 against him (Losing to UWR control once, a Fizzel, and Deadguy 3 times). 8 of those games had been turn one kills, and a few of them were because of the additional Tendrils of Agony maindeck. Most of those games I had used Diminishing Returns to win on turn one without Returns this deck is a lot slower and inconsistent so anyone who cut returns should give it another shot. I think I casted Gains maybe 5 times last night and that was it the rest was Diminishing Returns for the win.

Lately, I've been considering adding a few land to the deck but last minute always go against it. I'm wondering how Kronicler is doing with only 3 Chrome Mox and an additional land. If you don't mind could you post on it? I've been considering it. The only downfall to it is its worse with Diminishing Returns and Infernal Tutor.

rsaunder

12-29-2006, 05:07 PM

So What exactly was your list, just for reference purpouses. I haven't really played the deck too much since the inclusion of Death Wish, and am just wondering if there's a new master list.

Those results are enough to make me want to pick it up again:smile:

kicks_422

12-30-2006, 10:01 PM

I'm currently trying out no Diminishing Returns. Getting more juice to run up storm is great and all, but it doesn't really help in bad match-ups. Giving your opponent another 7 cards is too much of a liability when they're playing with counters.

I'm also trying out 4 Duress and 3 Swarms MD for more protection. I've found Duress to be golden, not just nabbing counters/Stifles but also opposing Duresses. I've also cut down to 1 each of Tendrils and ETW, to see hwo it goes.

Having the Duress and Swarms MD frees up the SB. Along with the 4th Swarm and 4 Shattering Sprees, there's lots of room for Wish targets.

Citrus-God

12-31-2006, 03:01 AM

In a deck like this, you would much rather have Xantid Swarm and Defense Grid. Why?

1. It makes both Diminishing Returns and Ill Gotten Gains much more broken.
2. It forces your opponents to answer it now! This could force your opponent into a lot of unintentional mistakes, can leave you in a very favorable position.
3. It swings games around in the Control v.s. Combo match-up.

Bryant Cook

12-31-2006, 08:40 PM

I completely disagree with cutting Diminishing Returns it is by far the strongest card in the deck. It's no only there to help you up storm count, against control with Xantid's and Defense Grids it helps you rebuild your hand after a previous fizzle(believe it or not control can make you fizzle). Against discard it wins you the game, and lastly against aggro it gives you the added boost of guaranteeing you're faster than them.

Duress isn't right for the deck, it doesn't make Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns better and only temporarily stops the threats because they'll be back(Ill-Gotten Gains) if you don't use gains or returns you probably won't be winning early. This just makes you weaker in the match-ups you would need Duress in because they can build up their hand.
I too have been thinking about options and 1 - 1 was one of them I'm glad to see people are also thinking of possible solutions.
What other Burning Wish targets do we need?

Saturday I went to my local card shop to test The EPIC Storm like I do every Saturday because I get out of work while Magic events are still happening. (Legacy happens on Sundays when I'm working...) So our tournament organizer Nate walks over and asks if we would like to have a Legacy event. Of course The EPIC Syndicate was there to get this going, so before round 1 people are looking for storm combo hate, I wonder why? There were only 10 or 12 of us testing Legacy and a few left early so it was a fun 10 man. Round one begins.
The List
Lands
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Cabal Pit
1 Forbidden Orchard

Creatures
3 Xantid Swarm

Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Burning Wish
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Rite of Flame
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Brainstorm
2 Defense Grid

Sideboard
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Tranquility
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Compost

Round 1- Rob Matthews with W/G aggro.

Game 1: I keep a weak opening hand, he plays hound of 2/2ness and repetitively throws stuff on it until I'm at 0. Wow not the way I wanted to start out. F
Game 2: I shuffle profusely and angrily then present my deck; my turn one consisted of creating 14 goblins, go.
Game 3: I kept a hand of LED, Petal, Dark ritual, City of Brass, Infernal, Brainstorm, and Rite of Flame. Needless to say he was dead before he got to play his flagstones turn 1.
1-0
2-1

Round 2- Scott Burch with mono red Vial goblins.

Game 1: I casted Plunge on his end step turn 1; turn 2 killed with Ill-gotten gains.
Game 2: I keep a hand of Dark ritual, Plunge, cabal Ritual, IGG, City of Brass, Led and Tendrils. I kept because of its potential awesomeness, I waited until turn 3 to draw my second mana source (Lotus Petal) at that point I played my City of Brass and won.

2-0
4-1

Round 3- John Lacasse (Mulletus) with RGSA
Game 1: I mull to 5 and keep a blah hand, and slowly lose until my last turn possible
I’m at 3 I rip Plunge but have to tap city to cast it. In response goes the LED and Ritual, I do it for one nabbing Burning Wish-> death nothing saves me and if I get Warrens I mana burn to death.
Game 2: I keep a City, LED, Tendrils, Tendrils, Cabal Ritual, and Plunge hand. Yes, that’s right another mulligan; I kept this hand because he had said he SB’d in pyrostatic Pillar. My turn 1 was LED go because I know he plays Chalice. He plays turn 1 Chalice 0, then turn 2 Pillar. I continued to not draw mana sources.

2-1
4-3

Round 4– Colin Chilbert (Diablos) with ATS(GRBU)
Game 1: I Mull AGAIN! At this point I’m furious I keep an opening hand of Led, Mox, Xantid, Defense Grid, and City of Brass. Colin Turn 1 Therapied me naming Infernal, I reveal, then draw a Xantid for my turn. I drop my hand and pass, Turns out he opened 3 Therapy. We play Draw go for awhile, he drops masticore beats me to 16 then plays a witness therapies me and flashes it back naming Returns, I’m cardless. I draw IGG and pass next turn I drew a land and won off of Returns.
Game 2: Colin sided in 3-4 Duress and 4 Mesmiric fiend, He turn 1 duresses me nailing Brainstorm leaving me with LED, 2x Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, and Forbidden Orchard. I drew for the turn and did a lot of thinking said “How big are my balls?” I turn 1 LED, 2x Ritual, Crack petal for Rite and cast IGG in resp crack LED for RRR. I get back Petal, B-storm Dark ritual and Brainstorm into(In order) Cabal Ritual, Infernal Tutor, and Tendrils of Agony. GG!

3-1
6-3
Because it was 9 we decided to split top 4. So, I’m sorry I can’t Deliver anymore.

tsabo_tavoc

12-31-2006, 09:48 PM

Congrats on the top4 finish!

I am really stunned by the 13/18 games winning by Diminishing Returns, only 1 Fizzles. 8/23 games trun 1 kills almost same as 40% percentage of LED in opening hand! I used to deem Returns as a resort under graveyard hates, now it becomes the golden card! Returns need 2(B/R) and 1 LED to accomplish a turn 1 kill, while Gains 2(B/R)B(B/Ritual) and 1 LED: I am convinced.

Duress: It's faster than Compost, and what's more, it can duress out Chalices, 3spheres, and Counters/Stifles! On the Counters/Stifles point, IGGed back your Duress to take out their sole answer, and LED, Tutor to win! However, you may feel unsafe with Duress rather than Swarms to win with Diminishing Returns. But in my mind, Returns are only turn 1-2 kills must, later games should resort to Gains.

Lastly, I put 1 Infernal Tutor in SB to Wish them in my IGG plan.

I want to hear more about your Returns plan, and will practice it a lot.

MattH

01-02-2007, 12:03 AM

Well, the successful reports given here have rekindled my passionate love of storm combo. I am interested in putting up another set of 100% fully-logged goldfishes as I did here (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30803.30). This time I am looking for a post-Brainstorm decklist to try out. Can I get a suggested list?

As far as the Tendrils/ETW splits, I would favor 2 Tendrils 1 ETW, because the times when you need to double-up on your kill cards are when you can only get 4-5 storm, and in those cases Tendrils needs the help of a twin more, because if ETW isn't lethal it is very easy to get more damage out of it - just untap and swing again.

Additionally, the "twinning" play is going to come up against counter-heavy decks more (where you don't want to be channeling your resources into a single counterable tutor) and in those matchups Tendrils is much better.

Giles

01-02-2007, 04:03 PM

Bryant Cook

01-02-2007, 04:22 PM

Hello all.
First I want to say that I love the deck. I have proxied it up and playing with it fine. However, I just want to share some of my notes.

Is Plunge into Darkness a 4 of? Since I only do it once a game and Rystic Tutor might be a better card for 2 of Plunge's spots

Second is that I am having trouble with Force of Will. Are there any pointers how not to walk into it?

I'm glad you like The EPIC Storm, the more people the better. Yes, Plunge is a 4 of; Rystic Tutor can be countered with 2 mana, and can't be used as a set-up card where Plunge into Darkness can be.

Yes, there are ways around Force of will; play your protection spells.
Don't cast IGG with Force in the yard.
Bait with Infernal Tutors.
Cast Burning Wish with 0 storm for a storm card.
Generally keep hands with storm cards in them.
Infernal-> double tendrils.
build up multiple tutors.

Giles

01-02-2007, 08:22 PM

Rysstic Tutor's 2 mana counter built-in dose not matter when you are comboing off Turn 1 or Turn 2. And it can get you any thing mid comboing.

Firebrothers

01-02-2007, 10:04 PM

I kind of like the rhystic tutor idea as well, i have tested around with the deck and sometimes find plunge not to be that usefull. If a deck is not tapping out to play threats the first few turns you probably dont have any reason to be going off in the first place. If you are playing a control deck and they are saving those 2 lands for a counterspell then you probably wont win anyway.

Bryant Cook

01-02-2007, 10:23 PM

Rystic Tutor's casting cost prohibits it from being usefull which is one of the reasons we don't play Grim Tutor. Legacy doesn't have Black Lotus to make up for 3cc tutors like it does in Vintage. You can't use Rhystic Tutor as a set up card since it's horribly slow and will only lower the decks average kill. Playing a card in the deck that is only good mid-combo and doesn't win you the game doesn't seem like a great idea.
Plunge into Darkness is a card you grow to like if you are playing it correctly, it's the first card people want to cut, but why? Because you are not used to a tutor that doesn't give you an exact card? When you cast Plunge you can't be looking just for X. You're also looking for l,m,n,o and P because they also find X or do somethign similiar.

Bovinious

01-02-2007, 10:26 PM

Ive played the deck a little as well, it seems to me that rhystic tutors drawback or pay 2 thing isnt really relevant, what is is that it costs 1 more than plunge and is a sorcery rather than an instant. I think that if you plunge for 16 or some large number your going to get the card you need, and sometimes more than one card will do. Plunge does cost 1 less and can be used endphase turn 1/2 to setup, but I think rhystic tutor is worth a try but is by no means an auto replacement of plunge.

Kronicler

01-03-2007, 02:46 AM

Well I've been testing this deck for quite a while. The things I've been focusing on are

a) the correct number of lands
b) the correct number of chrome moxes
c) if diminishing returns should be maindecked
d) if an infernal tutor should be in the SB
e) how much protection should be maindecked
f) if seething song should be included

A few of the things kinda tie in together, so I'll just dive right in.

a) After being a bit dissatisfied with 10 lands I decided to up the land count to 11. I found that while on VERY rare occasion you can get land flooded, you also get increased consistency. I constantly go back and forth, but against any decks with land destruction or mana denial stratagies, extra lands help a LOT.

b) I tried to lower the chrome mox count to 3 because I hated having double chrome mox hands and the such, but it was quickly apparent that wastedlife was correct, and that chrome mox is one of the most necessary parts of the deck.

c) For a while I rarely used diminishing returns, but after wastedlife's multiple praises of the card I gave it another shot. While I definately use it more, I still dont think it is maindeck material, and here is why: If I'm going to use Dreturns, I want to have atleast one red mana, one black mana, and one blue mana after it resolves. Thats 3 plus 4 to play returns, plus 2 for the tutor = a total of 9 mana. If you have that much mana and an infernal tutor than you win with IGG anyways. Thats why there is no point in maindecking it. If you only have a burning wish then THAT is when you use the returns, hence the reason it is in the sideboard. If my logic is flawed here then I would really like someone to correct it.

d) A SBed infernal tutor allows you to win with IGG in the burning wish scenario above, but since you can win with Dreturns it is better just to run 4 maindeck infernal tutors.

e) I think that xantid swarm is by far the best protection that exists for this deck, and after some testing I think that 4 is the correct number. I'm not really sure why people are going 3/2 xantid/Dgrid. In the thresh matchup I guess one could argue this setup because xantid can be STPed, but the grid has downsides too. Defence grid is good, sure, but it takes 2 mana to cast therefore giving your opponent atleast a turn to dig for the Fow, get daze mana open, etc. IMO the best setup is 4 xantids main and 3 grids in the SB.

f) I do NOT think that seething song should be cut. It is absolutely amazing with empty the warrens, and it has won me many games. I do not think that seething song should be a 4 of though... as its cost is prohibitive at times. Right now I'm running 2 and I love em.

The one thing I go back and forth between is the 3rd seething song and the 11th land. Potentially that slot could be filled with the 2nd tendrils / etw that people keep talking about, but right now I'm undecided. More testing is in order, heh. So here is my final 59 card list:

Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Rite of Flame
2 Seething Song
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Lands
4 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Cave-In
1 Cleanfall
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Compost
3 Defense Grid

Any input on the returns thing mensioned above or insight on the 60th card is greatly appreciated.

kronicler

Bryant Cook

01-03-2007, 06:44 AM

(This is going to be quick I got to leave for school soon)Wow, Kronicler seems like we're on the same page as in looking where the deck wants to be. Last night while talking over AIM I decided I was going to move Defense Grid to the SB, add another land and Xantid; I added the 4th Gemstone Mine.

Diminishing Returns- Seems like we play this card differently, I'm very agressive with it and will win with it with 0 mana floating preferably 1 B/R but will cast it with only one. You seem to think you need one of each color which isn't true. Between the 12 artifact mana spells and possible land drops I rarely find too little mana an issue. When I cast Returns it's generally 4 or 5 mana to win as opposed to 6 or 7 with IGG as I see it; compared to the 9 you see.

I liked my SB Infernal for a long, longe time but alas I wanted my MD to be more threat dense. More threats against control will win you games. I can see a tutor in the SB.

Xantid/Dgrid- Grid was moved to the SB because when you wanted to cast it it was often turn 1/2 and I ended up using too much accleration on it MD. It doesn't go on Mox and hurts Infernal Tutor. I ended up with 4 Xantid and 2 Dgrids SB. I agree with you on this one.

Seething Song- My decklist is too tight to find room honestly if I had more slots I'd play it.

your 60th card should be Tendrils the reasons are on the last few pages.

Edit:: Nvm that list continue using the old one, after alot of thinking and talking 3/2 is better.

Kronicler

01-03-2007, 10:42 AM

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I've been playing it too safe when it comes to going off with returns.

Kronicler

P.S. You finally dropped MD grapeshot!!!!!! Yes!!!!!!!

emidln

01-05-2007, 02:27 AM

Plunge into TES: Spoiling the Tutor Feud

Spoils of the Vault (SotV or Spoils) is a terrible card in TES. Initial observations seem to indicate that Spoils would be better than Plunge, another awful card, but a significant margin due to being a full mana cheaper, but this analysis is short-sighted. Let me explain.

Plunge Into Darkness is the very best of a long line of bad cards that allows TES to reach a critical mass of 12 tutors to play its game. For the mere cost of mana and life you may choose amongst a variety of cards for a solution to your particular problem. Sometimes your problem is that you need storm. Sometimes, you need to net two mana and a spell. In this way, Plunge is a super impulse in our favorite color.

Spoils, however, is a tutor. Now, Plunge is very much a tutor in that it gets you your choice of cards, but your choice is very limited to the amount of life you are willing to risk to find it. Spoils is a tutor that will get you what you ask for or kill you trying for it. With spoils, you ask the question "Can I have a Lion's Eye Diamond?" The answer is either yes or no. With Plunge you would be asking something else entirely: "Can I have a way out in the next 10 cards? Ideally, I'd like to net three mana and some storm, but I'm open to other options too."

Digging deeper, we find that the first spoils will probably not lose you the game on itself. However, in playing with multiple spoils we are effectively stricken from playing random card draw in order to reduce the chances that we draw dead cards. By dead cards, I mean Spoils numbers two, three, and four. Although there is only around an 8% that the first spoils will kill you, a second spoils is almost certainly to kill you barring extreme circumstances such as Brainstorming your card to the top for storm or RFGing most of your deck to multiple Diminishing Returns. In this way we trade the first of four tutors for our ability to use a Diminishing Returns. If our one Spoils does not win us the game, our reset has been effectively reduced by 33% since we would not want to Spoils again if Spoils is our only tutor after drawing our new hand.

Plunge rarely has this problem as it offers a choice as to how much risk you want to take. In the course of playing TES, I've found that I most often plunge for ten (+/- two) and almost as much, I plunge for five (+/-two). The only time I would plunge for MAX (Life Total - one - #of pain available (City of Brass/Cabal Pit/Tomb of Urami on the table + one if I have not yet made a land drop)) is when I am looking for a particular card to win on the spot. Usually, this is simply a business spell (Diminishing Returns/IGG/EtW/Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor), although it can be something like a spell that nets 3 mana.

In the MAX situation, Plunge is actually still the best choice since you are allowed to skirt the issue of odds by looking for any in a range of cards that fulfills your goals. For instance, say that you need to net three mana off a single spell and you are at 18 life. If you have a City of Brass in play along with a Cabal Pit (which you played this turn) you can safely plunge for 15 looking for your card. However, if you two rite of flame in your yard, a lion's eye diamond in hand, and have not yet seen a Cabal Rit, you have nine (two (Rites) + three (LED) + four (CRit)) outs in those 15 cards. The most obvious card to name with Spoils is Cabal Ritual, but Plunge, for an extra colorless yields a significantly higher chance of netting the precise card that you need. (*Of course, if you were using Spoils you would only need to net two mana here and Dark Ritual would be an option depending on whether you had seen a copy yet.)

I personally like the odds of finding one of nine out of the top 15 cards of the deck much moreso than I like the odds of finding one of four in the top 15 cards of the deck. Remember, if you name incorrectly with Spoils, you cannot simply choose a card that works in a similar way. Spoils only asks what card do you want, not what do you want to do.

So, I ask you this question, what kind of person are you? Do you know what you want? Do you know for sure? Are you willing to bet the game on it? How about in round one? What about round seven? The top eight of a GP? I'll be betting on Plunge, but I'll leave your bets to you.

- emidln

rsaunder

01-05-2007, 06:07 PM

Well, sorry to detract from the spoils V. plunge arguement or whatever had been going on, but I, for the first time today, built up TES in its current incarnation. I goldfished eight games (mostly due to time constraints), and had some interesting results.

Game#:

1: Kept hand at 7, first turn win with no option of protection. On the play.

2: Kept first hand at 7, second turn kill off a first turn brainstorm. Could have been turn 3 with swarm protection.

3: Kept hand at 7, Turn 1 win with swarm in opening grip.

4: Fizzle (turn 4+). Admittedly, I should have mulled this hand. I needed one more rit, or something.

5: Fizzle. I drew into essentially nothing relevant (i.e. land after land) after the first turn. My opening grip had been seething song, rite of flame, infernal tutor, chrome mox, defense grid, 2 land.

6: I mulled the first hand. I keep a semi-decent hand with a brainstorm. Brainstorm gets nothing relevant, and I am stuck on 1 mana source with no good accel untill turn 6. Counts as a fizzle to me.

7: For some reason I tooke very few notes on this game. I only know that I did not mull, and fizzled after a diminishing returns.

8: A solid second turn kill with a first turn xantid swarm. Good way to finish it off.

So do you guys find the deck just randomly sucking horribly?

Zir

01-05-2007, 06:23 PM

I've had similar experiences. It's an amazing deck, but it can just suck since it's so reliant on its opening hand. Because it features no draw besides the brainstorms, it will see very little cards besides its opening hand. TES doesn't have the option to semi-go off and draw into the stone-cold nuts and just win like Solidarity can for example, because of this. Sometimes you need two pieces for the hand to be good, and your tutors can only get you one. This is the risk you take when abandoning draw and going for hardly ever fizzling.

emidln

01-05-2007, 06:55 PM

So do you guys find the deck just randomly sucking horribly?

Short Answer: no. Long answer: In the last 200 hands or so I've played with TES, I haven't been able to go off around 7 times. That's 3.5% and that is by turn 3. I've had bad returns 3 times that I can remember with the current list (close to 1000 hands played). If you are fizzling then you are keeping bad hands or getting incredibly unlucky off Diminishing Returns.

Citrus-God

01-05-2007, 10:17 PM

Reasons why Spoils is bad: You name a card, either it's a 1-of or not. You hit over 20, and since you use Cbal Pits and Cities, your more likely to kill yourself and fizzle. The thing about Plunge is that you get the best cards out of the X amount of life you spent. Plunge is not a Tutor, it's a Cantrip. It's only used because we dont have moxes and lotus to accelerate Grim Tutor, otherwise we would be using it.

Reasons why Rhystic Tutor is bad: You want to slowplay a deck like Thresh until you can get a Swarm or a Grid set-up. Once that happens and this is your only ivable Tutor, they'll just pay two and force you to screw yourself over.

rsaunder

01-07-2007, 05:47 PM

Short Answer: no. Long answer: In the last 200 hands or so I've played with TES, I haven't been able to go off around 7 times. That's 3.5% and that is by turn 3. I've had bad returns 3 times that I can remember with the current list (close to 1000 hands played). If you are fizzling then you are keeping bad hands or getting incredibly unlucky off Diminishing Returns.I don't doubt for a second that I should have mulled at least one of those hands, but with previous versions of the deck, I had gotten so incredibly screwed over by mulling that I guess I'm a little spooked of it now. I always found myself with a meh hand, mulled, got a meh hand, mulled, and got a bad hand. Then I mulled again, and it just didn't matter.

I guess I have just been getting crappy returns. It's seriously worked, like twice for me, not so much removing important stuff, but giving me relative crap when I got to the Draw7. I guess it's just bad luck, but it's really discouraging, and makes me not want to go for returns.

On a side note, a friend who I loaned the deck to T4'd in our tournament saturday, beating out a rather competent solidarity player in the last round of swiss. He was horrible at playing the deck, but apperantly still managed to win games.

/I won it with Aluren.

Kronicler

01-07-2007, 07:59 PM

I've been having some similar feelings about the deck. When it works, boy does it work well. Sometimes I'll goldfish 10 or 20 hands and every single one works beautifully. Other times though, I can't seem to find a decent hand. I mull and mull and mull... but I rarely find anything that satisfies me. My brainstorms come up empty and my returns even emptier. When almost every hand looks something like landx2 burning wishx2 xantidx2 chrome mox, I get prety depressed. I've been playing Dreturns a lot more offensively thanks to wastedlife's advice, and there are times when it works perfectly. Unfortunately there seem to be an equal number of times where it doesn't work. This makes me hesitant to go for returns as if you can use returns you can use ETW. Perhaps I'm really unlucky, maybe I'm playing the deck wrong (though I doubt it), I really don't know.

Kronicler

kicks_422

01-07-2007, 08:44 PM

Of course that stuff happens. This deck is Tendrils Storm combo, being unstable is the very nature of it.

Though huge props to all working on the deck to minimize the times that the deck just dies out on the player.

BiscuitVader

01-07-2007, 11:22 PM

I agree that the deck can give really bad hands, as well as great ones.
I think we need two or three more card draw spells in the deck, bringing the total up to six or seven.

Maybe cut Tendris/EtW number two, and I have no idea what else.

Serum Visions?
Peak?
Maybe even Remand (Not really, but just something I would love to see work in this deck)?

emidln

01-07-2007, 11:25 PM

If the deck needed another draw spell the obvious choice would be Impulse. However, this deck doesn't need Impulse.

GreenOne

01-08-2007, 09:33 PM

I never really played the deck (just goldfished it some times) but I had something like 30 matches in the last weeks vs TES (wastedlife as player) with me playing solidarity.

In the first 20 matches he tried to go for the Diminishing Returns ASAP route. It's not the right way: he had something like 15-20% win percentage (well, with me opening broken hands).

The last 10 played matches went 50-50. He changed his strategy radically siding -4 Plunge +2 Grid +2 ETW.
ETW proved to be sweet in the solidarity matchup. Making 6-8 goblins on turn 1-2 and then playing defense grid on the next turn makes you somewhat like an aggro-control deck.

Some tips for the matchup:
- If you ETW early solidarity needs to combo on 3rd-4th turn and can have the cards just to tap your gobbos and leave you without cards in library waiting for you to deck next turn. Watch out: you might have something like cabal ritual (threshold)->Tendrils, or Diminishing returns in hand or IGG to a lethal tendrils (easy to do if you have your library in grave).
- If you have both Swarm and Grid in hand, play grid for the last. Grid is much better here.
- If you ETW early and have a clock you can wish for discard and go for the aggro control route.
- If you ETW early solidarity doesn't have the advantage of using your storm when comboing off on the next turns.
- Most important. If you ETW early the solidarity player is less likely to cantrip into FOW or have the mana to play Remand.
- IGG/Returns suck hard unless you can do it under swarm/grid or on turn 1 or turn 2 on the play.
- Side out Plunge. It's a good spell to twincast/remand. Remands are almost dead if you have ETW in hand.

However, I don't play E. Truth in my SB, and it can be a bad thing for you with the ETW plan. Just watch for it and remember that he can play it on turn 4 (wish on 3rd turn). I probably messed with my SB strategy too, as I had to side in some twincasts for remand to help winning on 3 lands and on my turn (defense grid) with turnabout abuse.

If you all have questions about the matchup feel free to ask.
Hope this was useful.

BreathWeapon

01-09-2007, 03:01 AM

Your close to the appropriate boarding plan against High Tide,

The critical difference between the list Wastedlife uses and the list I use is that I MD 3xEmpty the Warrens. EPIC Storm should be pre-boarded against High Tide and Threshold, because both decks represent 2/3 of the Tier 1, and Empty the Warrens is the strongest card to combat counterspells after Xantid Swarm.

That said, SBing out Plunge into Darkness is wrong, because Plunge into Darkness is what makes the deck consistent, and the plan against High Tide and Threshold is to use Plunge into Darkness to find a Xantid Swarm to protect Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens to disregard the opponent's counter wall.

The card the deck should SB out against High Tide is Cabal Ritual, because Cabal Ritual can't be used to accelerate Defense Grid onto the board on the first turn, and the game isn't going to last long enough for the deck to build Threshold.

Bryant Cook

01-09-2007, 02:34 PM

Your close to the appropriate boarding plan against High Tide
Since you seem to know the "appropriate" plan why don't you share it?

Yes, siding out Plunges was a bad idea I had thought about it after the match-up. However, if I were to do sideboard now it wouldn't be -4 Cabal Ritual or Plunge + X; it would be -2 Cabal Ritual, -2 Plunge not one or the other because both are important. We've gone over this at TMD, 3x Warrens is unneeded and clogs the hand in the main deck and causes inconsistency. 3x ETW will only harm the main deck not giving it a fair game against the WHOLE field. The deck already has 50+ the top 3 decks why not aim for the whole metagame? Hence why we play Compost in the SB.

@ The people with bad Returns hands- Bad hands happen it’s a fact of life, and amazing hands happen. When it comes down to it, how many games has Diminishing Returns won you compared to losing you the game? I've won more games with Returns than not. Returns also has to do with leaving the appropriate mana floating, leaving yourself with 2-3 of one color generally isn't that great of an idea...

BreathWeapon

01-09-2007, 05:13 PM

Since you seem to know the "appropriate" plan why don't you share it?

Yes, siding out Plunges was a bad idea I had thought about it after the match-up. However, if I were to do sideboard now it wouldn't be -4 Cabal Ritual or Plunge + X; it would be -2 Cabal Ritual, -2 Plunge not one or the other because both are important. We've gone over this at TMD, 3x Warrens is unneeded and clogs the hand in the main deck and causes inconsistency. 3x ETW will only harm the main deck not giving it a fair game against the WHOLE field. The deck already has 50+ the top 3 decks why not aim for the whole metagame? Hence why we play Compost in the SB.

@ The people with bad Returns hands- Bad hands happen it’s a fact of life, and amazing hands happen. When it comes down to it, how many games has Diminishing Returns won you compared to losing you the game? I've won more games with Returns than not. Returns also has to do with leaving the appropriate mana floating, leaving yourself with 2-3 of one color generally isn't that great of an idea...

I did share the appropriate plan; SB out Cabal Rituals for Defense Grids against High Tide. Cabal Ritual is the worst ritual in the deck, and the game will be over before Cabal Ritual reaches Threshold. Consistency is more important than speed against High Tide, and for that matter Threshold, and that is the reason that SBing out Plunge into Darkness is wrong. Plunge into Darkness can become anything it can search for, but Cabal Ritual is always going to be Cabal Ritual.

3xETW in the MD is the right decision, because the deck wants its MD to be prepared for decks with counterspells, and that is the same reason we MD Swarm instead of Duress etc. The 3xETW is "unneeded, clogs up hands, and makes the deck inconsistent" argument is inaccurate on all three accounts. The deck SBs in 2xETW against Threshold and High Tide games 2 and 3, which tells me that the card is needed against decks with counterspells. ETW is not Tendrils, it does not sit in your hand and stare at you, it can be cast in order to turn the deck into aggro against High Tide and Threshold, which is the preferred plan, or it can be cast in order to turn the deck into aggro against Goblins or chump block them, which tells me that the card doesn't clog hands, it just "tilts" them towards casting ETW. Adding 2xETW makes the deck consistent, not inconsistent, because now it can draw ETW instead of tutoring for it, and it can Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness to search for it.

Lets compare the 2xETW to the two cards used in other lists, either the second Tendrils and a Seething Song or two Seething Song. The second Tendrils is, in fact, unneeded against Threshold and High Tide, because the preferred plan is ETW, and Tendrils can't be cast from hand like ETW. The card being suggested over an ETW better fits the counter argument than ETW itself, which refutes the argument. Seething Song is in the same category as Death Wish and Defense Grid, all of them are good enough to be included in the MD as tertiary cards, but none of them should replace a more efficient version of the card or a card that serves a seperate role. Seething Song is the worst of the three in this case, because the deck has more acceleration than any other card type, and with out the appropriate combination of accelerants, it will cut the deck off from black mana.

I am designing the deck to be better against the field, because the majority* of the field are counterspell decks, and these match ups present the most difficulties for us. All aggro matches are a free win, so that leaves discard decks as the second most difficult match ups**, but I don't think that these match ups are worth making concessions to the MD or SB, because B/W and B/R etc. aren't a significant percentage of the field, and ETW is an excellent card against them any way.

* The majority of the field we should be concerned with.

**I suppose that prison is an even worse match up than discard, but Stax and 5/3 are non-existent in this format.

Now, I am going to contest that the deck has a 50/50 match up against Threshold/Fish, because even with MD 3xETW and SB 4xGrids, I still have trouble winning the match against a competent pilot. The problem with stating that the Threshold/Fish match up is 50/50 comes down to two things, first Threshold/Fish pilots don't know what to Meddling Mage against you, and second their MDs and SBs aren't prepared against you. This isn't going to last, and I have seen it first hand, because Threshold players are learning what to Meddling Mage for, ETW or Infernal Tutor, depending on whether or not they have Stifle and Engineered Explosives or counterspells and Swords to Plowshares, and their MD/SB are starting to take ETW into consideration, i.e MD/SB Engineered Explosives and MD/SB Stifle. The thing is, both Engineered Explosives and Stifle are good against Threshold's worst match up, Goblins, so I can guarantee that Threshold is going to start MD/SBing them if this deck becomes popular.

P.S. I also have a suspicion that if Threshold/Fish pilots start to Force of Will and Daze the acceleration to stop us from resolving Empty the Warrens and turn Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor into set up cards, it would improve their position in situations where they don't have Meddling Mage, Stifle or Engineered Explosives.

emidln

01-09-2007, 08:51 PM

As the format's lone prison player, I can tell you the matchup vs UbaStax isn't really _that_ bad. SB Shattering Spree is really, really good game 1 if they don't draw their few wastelands. You can play out from under Chalices and 3spheres as long as they don't backup their disruption by a quick Smokestack or Uba Mask.

BreathWeapon

01-09-2007, 09:49 PM

Another idea I came across in Extended, in TEPS, is to SB a Right of Flame in order to give Burning Wish an acceleration target, and it reduces the amount of acceleration in the deck for a Death Wish or a Seething Song, Desperate Ritual or Tinder Wall. I'm not sold on the idea, but it is an interesting option that no one has brought up before.

Bryant Cook

01-09-2007, 09:56 PM

I did share the appropriate plan; SB out Cabal Rituals for Defense Grids against High Tide. Cabal Ritual is the worst ritual in the deck, and the game will be over before Cabal Ritual reaches Threshold. Consistency is more important than speed against High Tide, and for that matter Threshold, and that is the reason that SBing out Plunge into Darkness is wrong. Plunge into Darkness can become anything it can search for, but Cabal Ritual is always going to be Cabal Ritual.

Acceleration is just as important against Threshold and Solidarity as Tutors without proper acceleration you will not be able to win; sometimes Cabal Ritual is that extra boost. Consistency is important but without speed you simply lose, if you give Threshold or Solidarity too much time you will lose the game. Sitting there tutoring is a waste of time against Solidarity because if you are setting up you are more than likely allowing them to have multiple lands and with that you will lose. I’ve played the match-ups more than enough to dissect them completely and accurately. Thank you.

3xETW in the MD is the right decision, because the deck wants its MD to be prepared for decks with counterspells, and that is the same reason we MD Swarm instead of Duress etc. The 3xETW is "unneeded, clogs up hands, and makes the deck inconsistent" argument is inaccurate on all three accounts. The deck SBs in 2xETW against Threshold and High Tide games 2 and 3, which tells me that the card is needed against decks with counterspells. ETW is not Tendrils, it does not sit in your hand and stare at you, it can be cast in order to turn the deck into aggro against High Tide and Threshold, which is the preferred plan, or it can be cast in order to turn the deck into aggro against Goblins or chump block them, which tells me that the card doesn't clog hands, it just "tilts" them towards casting ETW. Adding 2xETW makes the deck consistent, not inconsistent, because now it can draw ETW instead of tutoring for it, and it can Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness to search for it.

We already have a good match-up against decks with counterspells. Is it that hard to get the point across? No, the argument is not inaccurate its true. With ETW in hand you cannot cast Infernal Tutor in mid-combo without having to have LED, Mox or cast it which prohibits the deck to be forced to cast a sub-par win condition. Yes, I said it; Empty the Warrens is a sub-par win condition compared to Tendrils of Agony. Empty the Warrens is simply only good against Solidarity and Threshold because they have very few answers for a horde of 11 tokens. Threshold’s being Engineered Explosives and Solidarity’s being Cunning Wish- Evacuation/Echoing Truth. Empty the Warrens takes time to win, it’s a fact; with time Solidarity’s power grows and grows allowing it to do whatever it wants to including Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth. Which also reads TARGET PLAYER LOSES THE GAME BECAUSE THEY WASTED THERE RESOURCES ON A SUB-PAR, EASY TO ANSWER WIN CONDITION.PERIOD. More than likely if you can cast Empty the Warrens you can probably continue to combo into Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns; however, you wouldn’t know because you waste slots on cards that force the deck into creating 1/1’s instead of the main plan. I honestly don’t mean to be rude when I say that but it’s true, with those cards MD instead of cards that allow you to go for the main plan cause you to drift towards a sub-par plan which is a bad idea.
Goblins in my metagame has started running MD shooter again because of TES; same
with Threshold and Engineered Explosives. The metagame changes to hate on decks and
adding cards to your deck which are easily answered and hated on isn’t the greatest idea.
Lastly for this quote, I don’t want to draw ETW or Tendrils in my opening for that matter, Tendrils is a “win now” not a “win later” making it more optimal against Solidarity and Threshold because of the double Tendrils plan. Also with 2 Tendrils instead of 3x Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns becomes stronger because if Tendrils you no longer are forced to Burning Wish for it to win now; but that’s a different topic. Against decks that are as fast (Goblins, Solidarity and Iggy Pop) you don’t want to be passing the turn.

Lets compare the 2xETW to the two cards used in other lists, either the second Tendrils and a Seething Song or two Seething Song. The second Tendrils is, in fact, unneeded against Threshold and High Tide, because the preferred plan is ETW, and Tendrils can't be cast from hand like ETW. The card being suggested over an ETW better fits the counter argument than ETW itself, which refutes the argument. Seething Song is in the same category as Death Wish and Defense Grid, all of them are good enough to be included in the MD as tertiary cards, but none of them should replace a more efficient version of the card or a card that serves a seperate role. Seething Song is the worst of the three in this case, because the deck has more acceleration than any other card type, and with out the appropriate combination of accelerants, it will cut the deck off from black mana.

The second Tendrils is better than a 2nd or 3rd Empty the Warrens, Tendrils actually kills them that turn and is actually better against Solidairty and decks with counterspells. When testing against Solidairty holding Tendrils/Ill-Gotten Gains in hand and beginning to combo out having them steal your storm count, then them not being able to finish comboing and you winning because of them not being prepared to win.
The double Tendrils plan is better against decks with Counterspells because they rack up the storm count for you allowing you win off of their cards. Most decks with counterspells even including MUC have answers for multiple hordes, may it be Echoing Truth or Powder keg.

I am designing the deck to be better against the field, because the majority* of the field are counterspell decks, and these match ups present the most difficulties for us. All aggro matches are a free win, so that leaves discard decks as the second most difficult match ups**, but I don't think that these match ups are worth making concessions to the MD or SB, because B/W and B/R etc. aren't a significant percentage of the field, and ETW is an excellent card against them any way.

* The majority of the field we should be concerned with.

**I suppose that prison is an even worse match up than discard, but Stax and 5/3 are non-existent in this format.
Most of the field is counterspell decks? Outside of the top 3 I completely disagree with you. Most of the field is aggro decks in the form of Zoo Variants, BXX Control, Stompy decks and finally BX suicide. Zoo variants generally pack some form of a way to deal with hordes in the SB (Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake), BXX Control has discard, mass creature removal and Pernicious Deed. Angel Stompy decks has Jitte, Meddling Mage, Duress and Tivadar’s crusade and finally BX has Pyroclasm/ Engineered Plague to deal with Hordes more than half of those don’t deal with Tendrils of Agony. The metagame is more prepared for 1/1’s than lethal on the stack.

Now, I am going to contest that the deck has a 50/50 match up against Threshold/Fish, because even with MD 3xETW and SB 4xGrids, I still have trouble winning the match against a competent pilot. The problem with stating that the Threshold/Fish match up is 50/50 comes down to two things, first Threshold/Fish pilots don't know what to Meddling Mage against you, and second their MDs and SBs aren't prepared against you. This isn't going to last, and I have seen it first hand, because Threshold players are learning what to Meddling Mage for, ETW or Infernal Tutor, depending on whether or not they have Stifle and Engineered Explosives or counterspells and Swords to Plowshares, and their MD/SB are starting to take ETW into consideration, i.e MD/SB Engineered Explosives and MD/SB Stifle. The thing is, both Engineered Explosives and Stifle are good against Threshold's worst match up, Goblins, so I can guarantee that Threshold is going to start MD/SBing them if this deck becomes popular.

P.S. I also have a suspicion that if Threshold/Fish pilots start to Force of Will and Daze the acceleration to stop us from resolving Empty the Warrens and turn Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor into set up cards, it would improve their position in situations where they don't have Meddling Mage, Stifle or Engineered Explosives.
Your problems against Fish and Threshold are because of the choices in cards you choose to play. I happen to do amazingly against Threshold; fish is a whole different match-up than Threshold talk about the two separately. Personal problems when playing the deck are due to playskill and knowledge of the deck I’d recommend goldfishing and learning the deck in and out. I already know how to beat the deck and what to name and so forth as do my teammates who are my testing partners. My testing partners have already started running EE and stifle so been there done that, so it seems you need better partners to test against and maybe you’ll find my list and change to be better suited.

Another idea I came across in Extended, in TEPS, is to SB a Right of Flame in order to give Burning Wish an acceleration target, and it reduces the amount of acceleration in the deck for a Death Wish or a Seething Song, Desperate Ritual or Tinder Wall. I'm not sold on the idea, but it is an interesting option that no one has brought up before.

No, why make our deck less threat dense just so we can pay 1RR to gain RR?

Kronicler

01-10-2007, 01:44 AM

Holy crap... I don't check this thread for a day, and all of a sudden wastedlife and breathweapon are starting WWIII over the number of ETWs to play vs solidarity?!?!?!??!?!??!! Frankly I've never had much trouble with the matchup, though there are only 2 compotent pilots in my area, 1 who hardly ever plays and the other is the judge for all of our tourneys!

So.... after hours and hours of testing, I've once again changed my mind about maindeck Diminishing Returns. The reason is that casting it and leaving yourself with 1 mana post-resolution is to unreliable. Yes, it is certainly possible to win, but in most matches I would rather just go for ETW then have a sizeable chance of fizzling. If you are able to have 2 mana post-resolution then just get IGG and win. The only time this really matters is against graveyard hate backed by a dangerous clock (one to fast for ETW to matter). In essense, Iggy Pop. MD diminishing returns was tremendously helpful here. I'm torn as I would love to run my 11th land in that spot. Do you guys think that it is really worth running the MD returns simply to make our game against Iggy better? And if no, does the 2nd returns deserve a slot in the SB to be boarded in against Iggy?

Another thing I've been thinking about lately is enlightened tutor. Perhaps it's to slow, and I know it is card disadvantage, but putting an LED ontop of my library for a single mana is extremely enticing. I can't count the number of times I've thought to myself, "This hand would be godly IF ONLY I had a mtherfking LED!11!!one!!!!eleven1!1!!". Has it been tried before? Do we have any room for it?

Aight, thats it. I'd love to hear your opinions on the above questions, but besides that, let WWIII continue!

Kronicler

P.S. I agree with wastedlife on the ETW issue :-D.

BreathWeapon

01-10-2007, 01:47 AM

kicks_422

01-10-2007, 06:37 AM

There's a red ESG? Where did you get that info?... I don't think it could fit in the deck though, as it doesn't add to storm. It's a better addition to Belcher, I believe.

Citrus-God

01-10-2007, 08:10 AM

U/g/w Threshold and U/b/w Fish are the same deck, U/g/w Threshold is a port of Bird Shit from Vintage, which was a Fish deck designed to take advantage of the mirror match with larger creatures, and regardless, Threshold and Fish (the non-LD versions) have an identical game plan, use cheap and efficient threats backed up with cheap and efficient disruption in order to win the game. That said, card selection and skill are bull shit arguments, because you stated yourself that you SB in 2 Empty the Warrens against Threshold, and I am willing to go on MWS or Apprentice with Threshold or Fish, post board, and prove to you that you are playing against incompetent aggro-control players.

1. Bird Shit in T1 was far more different than Fish in T1. Fish in T1 has the same philosophy we have today's T1, but the functions are different because T1 is a format that was very reliant on acceleration. Bird Shit was resource denial, but unlike Fish, Bird Shit ran out of resources quickly, so they had Threshold creatures to kill the opponent before it matter. But since we decided to cut Standstills and Ninjas from Fish, I guess it did turn into Bird Shit. UGw Threshold however, isnt an influence in T1, known as Gro, better yet known as Super Gro. Super Gro was actually a deck based off of Miracle Gro (Just UG), designed to slap the hell out of Trix in that era of old extended. But the biggest influence for the deck is Comer's Turbo Xerox, and his theory. His Theory happens to be that if you run a low land count, and a high density of cantrips and business spells, you can cantrip for lands early game, and everything else around midgame to lategame.

2. Fish and Threshold are two very different decks. The design is similair, but the fundamental turns and the way it plays are way more different. First off, Fish's creatures are weaker, and it's clock is slightly slower, and it's dark engine is slightly more redundant. Threshold just goes beatdown before decks can recover, thus, it plays it's game much more similair to T1 Tempo decks. But that's Threshold. Apparently, you forgot about Gro, which plays so much more different from Threshold and Fish.

3. I laughed at this.

a. Wastedlife is a former compotent Threshold player. His quite famous for playing with Predicts and Magma Jets. He is quite an influence on Red Thresh's in today's metagame. He Top 8ed a Lotus tourney, and he won a Mox. He slapped David Gearhart before, without Meddling Mages. Awesome isnt it?

b. I know he used to play Threshold, so he does know what to do against them. His teammate Mr. Nightmare is also quite a competitive Threshold player. He got 2nd in the TML Open. Can you say playtest partner?
You may remember that EPIC Syndicate also has Michael Herbig of team Meandeck as their Legacy teammate. That just means they know a lot about Tendrils, and the old incarnations of Long.

Bryant Cook

01-10-2007, 11:06 AM

I think those counter arguments are off base, making concessions to the MD for a field consisting of Zoo.dec is nonsensical, because I could use two dead cards in those slots and still win, and I am not convinced that 3 Empty the Warrens MD is a bad decision against Zoo.dec or discard.dec to begin with. Besides, using that line of logic, we should remove Xantid Swarm for Duress, Cabal Therapy or Orim's Chant etc. because those cards are better against the Zoo.dec and discard.dec match ups. Furthermore, your argument is inconsistent, because the second Tendrils of Agony was added in order to improve the Threshold and High Tide match up, which is the same thing I am doing with the second and third Empty the Warrens, except the second and third Empty the Warrens are better than the second Tendrils of Agony against High Tide and Threshold, and it isn't dead against aggro.

Have you ever played in a large tournament? This is a serious question. Large tournaments consist of many different arch types and variants of different decks, the modern metagame is switching to deal with hordes of little men. I wasn’t saying the whole field would be Zoo, which is why I listed other decks which you failed to mention. 3c Angel Stompy and Faerie Stompy are both Horrible match-ups and MD Empty the Warrens doesn’t help. They both run Jitte and Engineered Explosives and Faerie Stompy can even Tutor for their answer.
No, you are misinterpreting my words and changing them around, we already have a decent match-up against decks with counterspells because of Xantid. Which means there’s no need to put MD hate for more counterspells if we already have a good match-up. Taking away the card that allows us most of our flexibility against control is a bad idea; just because most of the metagame isn’t control doesn’t mean the tier one isn’t. Outside of the tier one is a different story, if there wasn’t Threshold or Solidarity Xantid wouldn’t be maindeck. But since we already have a decent match-up against them why not improve on bad match-ups? Empty the Warrens doesn’t help the bad match-ups this deck has.

Acceleration is irrelevant against High Tide, unless the deck can establish a Defense Grid or Xantid Swarm to protect the Infernal Tutor into Tendrils of Agony win condition, and the best way to do that is to Plunge into Darkness for them, cast them and then win on the following turn, or disregard protection and Infernal Tutor and Plunge into Darkness for Empty the Warrens, cast it for 6 to 10 goblins on your second turn and race. Also, Plunge into Darkness is at its strongest against High Tide, because life is irrelevant, so it doesn't make sense to SB out Plunge into Darkness against its best match up. Plunge into Darkness for Lion's Eye Diamond is the same net mana gain as a Cabal Ritual, with mana of any color and an additional storm, and you are all but guaranteed to find a Lion's Eye Diamond after a Plunge into Darkness for 17 to 19.

No, no, and no you couldn’t be anymore wrong. How the hell are you going to cast ETW without acceleration? Really; I’d like to know, you can’t even cast ETW without proper acceleration on turns 1-2 so you are able to race. Plunging for X, and Infernalling for X takes time with time ETW without acceleration becomes too slow and unndeed. I’m aware of how strong Plunge is in this match-up after all it is my deck. However, it is slow and like ETW can clog hands in numbers. Too many tutor effects with no acceleration can take ages to win.

Empty the Warrens is the best plan against High Tide, because Cunning Wish on turn three and Echoing Truth on turn four is slow; if you Empty the Warrens for 10, you will win the race, and if you Empty the Warrens for 6 or 8, you will win the race if you won the coin flip, or you can defend your Goblins with Burning Wish for Duress, or you can play a Defense Grid and try to find another threat before they can find another Cunning Wish.

You don’t always win the coin flip and even so what about game 2? They play first, you are unable to cast Warrens until turn 2. It’s very likely and it completely wastes resources and you will more than likely lose to one card. You are assuming you have the absolute tit hands, which don’t automatically happen. “Oh, I’ll have turn 1 ETW for 10, turn 2 Burning Wish, and then, and THEN turn 3 Duress without them having Force of Will/Remand/Cunning Wish.” Is that what you are saying? “Your counterarguments are illogical.”

I have one more 4cc card in the MD than you do, that does not make a significant difference in Hellbent for Infernal Tutor, so it is not a relevant argument against ETW. We also have Brainstorm, Chrome Mox and LED to remove the card for Hellbent, not to mention Burning Wish for Ill Gotten Gains or Plunge into Darkness for one of the first three cards, which should be more than enough to deal with the situation should it arise.

Those are all possible ways of removing ETW, I agree but do you understand how much time that will take? You will more than likely lose the game against Solidarity (The match-up we’ve been discussing); the problem with all of that is you won’t be able to win until Solidarity’s fundamental turn in which you will lose. So yes, ETW does make Infernal Tutor worse and it dies indeed clog hands.

U/g/w Threshold and U/b/w Fish are the same deck, U/g/w Threshold is a port of Bird Shit from Vintage, which was a Fish deck designed to take advantage of the mirror match with larger creatures, and regardless, Threshold and Fish (the non-LD versions) have an identical game plan, use cheap and efficient threats backed up with cheap and efficient disruption in order to win the game. That said, card selection and skill are bull shit arguments, because you stated yourself that you SB in 2 Empty the Warrens against Threshold, and I am willing to go on MWS or Apprentice with Threshold or Fish, post board, and prove to you that you are playing against incompetent aggro-control players.

Anti-American already addressed this I won’t waste my time rewording what he said.

The Right of Flame in the SB doesn't make the deck less threat dense, it makes the deck more threat dense, because acceleration is being removed for business, Death Wish. Burning Wish for Right of Flame isn't that bad, because it transfers two mana from one turn into another, and it becomes 1RR for RRR with a second Right of Flame in hand, or it transfers two mana into three mana from one turn into another with a second Right of Flame in hand. Also, the card replacing Right of Flame could be either Seething Song, Desperate Ritual, Tinder Wall or the planeshifted Red ESG (which looks awesome in this deck), so you don't really lose anything.

Are you kidding me? You must be joking, taking away from the deck to add to the SB does make the deck less threat dense. It makes Rite of Flame worse because you want them in numbers and I for one am not winning to spend 1RR to gain RR, you also can’t assume you’ll have another one to have it RRR that is illogical. The new red ESG more than likely won’t be played it doesn’t add storm however it may see play as a 1 or 2 of to make Diminishing Returns better.

So.... after hours and hours of testing, I've once again changed my mind about maindeck Diminishing Returns. The reason is that casting it and leaving yourself with 1 mana post-resolution is to unreliable. Yes, it is certainly possible to win, but in most matches I would rather just go for ETW then have a sizeable chance of fizzling. If you are able to have 2 mana post-resolution then just get IGG and win. The only time this really matters is against graveyard hate backed by a dangerous clock (one to fast for ETW to matter). In essense, Iggy Pop. MD diminishing returns was tremendously helpful here. I'm torn as I would love to run my 11th land in that spot. Do you guys think that it is really worth running the MD returns simply to make our game against Iggy better? And if no, does the 2nd returns deserve a slot in the SB to be boarded in against Iggy?

Another thing I've been thinking about lately is enlightened tutor. Perhaps it's to slow, and I know it is card disadvantage, but putting an LED ontop of my library for a single mana is extremely enticing. I can't count the number of times I've thought to myself, "This hand would be godly IF ONLY I had a mtherfking LED!11!!one!!!!eleven1!1!!". Has it been tried before? Do we have any room for it?

It’s your choice to cut it or not but I believe it should stay. The mana thing isn’t always true, especially With Burning Wish but then again that’s with the SB. Returns is also in the deck to dodge graveyard hate also to shuffle Force of Will’s and other harmful cards back into the deck so you can continue comboing because IGG would’ve lost you the game. I recommend the 11th land to everyone, it’s been amazing in testing my 11th land is Tomb of Urami which won a game vs. Solidarity. I could see a 2nd Returns in the SB if you don’t play one MD, you can always side it in, against decks you don’t need swarm. Enlightened tutor = no. It’s a topdeck tutor which is why we don’t play mystical. It can be predicted away, has horrible synergy with IGG and it’s card disadvantage.