[Brainstorming] Beat the best; Get beaten by the rest (Mostly)

[Mordenkain]

Beat the best; Get beaten be the rest (Mostly)

So, what is this?
It's a thread to start developing a deck that might get to wreck the top decks. I will tell you about my theory that may if we pull it off, be able get a DTB. But it requires all your help and passion if it's gonna work. Interested still? Fine read on.

Main Theory
I will present to you the four main things that this deck should strive to acomplish. These points may seem unoptainable, but don't back away. As i said, the deck should strive to accomplish these points. We mostly like won't be able to accomplish them all, but filling as many as possible should do the trick.
Moving on, lets see what I got for you:

1."The gun is loaded"
So what does this mean? Two words: Maindeck hate. It's that simple. The main idea of this deck is that it will be a metagame deck, geared to beat the top deck. By analysing them, finding their weakness and then use that against them, should give us a major advantage. Although this also mean that we should be careful not to include dead cards in the main deck. This should be solved by either using a wishboard, tutor power, or using hate cards that have mutiple purposes.

2."How you like that STP now, punk?"
Two words: Win creatureless. Why? You see, Legacy is concentrated around creatures, and that means everyone is sideboarding against them (If not completely basing their deck around beathing them. *cough*rifter*cough*).
So let's say we play a deck like Landstill.dec. For each and every Wrath of God and Swords to Plowshares they draw, they could as well be drawing blank cards. No wait, their even worse than blank cards, because they don't do anything and still costs mana. Well you get the idea? What Im trying to say is that by using no creatures, you most likely gives you opponent loads of dead cards, giving you large advantage.
Now this point should be takes with a grain of salt. Not using creatures entirely is most likely not the way to go, but not relying on them is the point.

3."Say goodbye to your memories"
Many decks in legacy is depending on they graveyard to able to win the game. So along with creatures, graveyard abuse is the thing most decks is sideboarding against. If we could get around using the graveyard, it would give us major advantage, by not making us vulnerable to that hate. I think this is even more of a concern than wining creatureless. Don't you hate being raped by a 0cc artifact?

4."Tell me, do I look like i care?"
One word: Counterspell. We shouldn't be losing to a single counterspell, since that is just plain stupid and retarded. If we expect to beat deck like Threshold.dec and Solidarity.dec, not getting stopped by a counterspell is key. So by using not specific spells, but a category of spells should do the trick, along with using uncounterable solutions. Cycling and lands comes to mind.

So, how does all this work out?
This is where i need you. I have now presented the idea that I think should be able make a good deck. I need your input now. Is this to much of a mouthful? Maybe it can't be done? Maybe it can?

If I recieve some positive feedback on this, we can start developing, but I want to know if your with me or not, because I can't do this alone. Remember: Two minds works better than one.

- Mordenkain

[clavio]

relic orb meets all of those criteria[/shameless plug]

I think to start with you should run black. Black gives you discard, non targeted creature removal and land destruction. It givers you engineered plague, oppression, chains of Mephistopheles and some other neat things.

Black doesn't have quality mass removal though. I suggest white because it has wog and stp. Running white also allows you to run rule of law.

I think the whole creaturless concept will be hard to make redundant to make counters not effect you. Did you have any thing in mind?

[Elfrago]

Nice idea but I think this is a difficult deck to design.

First problem: how do we win?

[Silverdragon]

The biggest problem I see is that there are almost no cards that are good against Goblins AND Solidarity. You can play creature hate like many other decks do but these cards are dead against Solidarity. You can play combohate like Ivory Mask and whatever but Goblins won't care.
Generic Burn (e.g. Lightning Bolt) looks like it solves some of the problems (it can work as creature removal or just go straight to the dome, it doesn't care about Counterspell and graveyard hate) but it is just to slow against Solidarity. Land destruction, discard or permissionspells are useful against all the topdecks too (some more, some less) but the decks currently supporting these strategies all have problems with random other tier 1.5-2 decks or aggro in general so for tournaments they may be viable but no winners.
Lastly Prisondecks come to mind (e.g. Angelstax). Angelstax has a fair chance against all the top tier decks too but has to devote at least 8 slots for the aggro matchups (Wrath, Ghostly Prison/Moat etc.) and even then often fails to beat decks like Elves! or other jank (nothing personal against Elfplayers :) )
To sum it up my suggestion would be to try a red control deck that slows down the opponent with Chalice, Trinisphere, Pillage and other stuff and can kill the opponent with some Burn like Shrapnel Blast out of nowhere ;)

[Solpugid]

I would also suggest a red control deck, maybe splashing white to add some good stuff like StP and eternal dragon. You could easily have a burning wish board, and you could run one or two shivan gorge for an untargetting, land-based win condition (obviously in addition to other win conditions).

I can see starstorm being really good, since it's good against aggro and aggro-control, but isn't completely dead against combo since it cycles.

[Peter_Rotten]

The idea is interesting and could be a worthy one. Small Pox seems like a great card against the top 3 decks. Solidarity loves its lands and hand. Untargeted removal is solid against Thresh - as is LD sometimes. Against Goblins, the card at least seems decent.

Unforturnately, making this kind of Metagame deck often fails to work in the Legacy environment. There is simply too much randomness. Out of the 6+ rounds you could possibly play at a large event, who knows how little of the Top Tier you could see.

[Mordenkain]

It seems like there is some interest in the idea, so I will start the whole thing off a present my thoughts about the thing.
In a deck delopment process, its important to not think to fast. Ive seen that happen to loads of decks, where the main idea was good, but people moved on to fast, thought the was finished and realized that it wasn't good enough, although it could have turned out as a good deck with more development. So lets take it easy guys, one step at a time.



First problem: how do we win?

This is what I mean. We haven't even started yet, only thinking about the main theory. Don't think win condition already.

So where to start?
Well the first logical step seems to me to be to analyse the top deck and find out what cards beat em, and then see which cards repeats itself.

Threshold.dec - Thres relies on creatures to win. Further more these creatures relies on the graveyard to be good. Normally the problem with trying to hinter their win condition with creature removal is that they back it up with counters. So solution? Play our own counters or make it so that they can't counter.
Weakness: Graveyard Hate, Uncounterable Removal

Goblins.dec - I haven't payed much against gobs, since few people in my meta plays em. It seems logical to me that by rendering they key cards like Lackey and Piledriver useless and just killing them seems like what you can do to stop them. Also there is the posibility to just win before them, but i hardly think thats the way to go.
Weakness: Creature removal, fast combo

Solidarity - Stopping key spells from resolving combined with a good clock seems to be the solution. If you arent facing a good player, putting preasure on him making him try to go of before time also can win. Also there is again the posibility to win before them.
Weakness: Faster combo, counterspells.

So, come with you input, correct me where im wrong, and lets get started. Remember, dont think about color, arcetype, win condition or anything like that just yet. Just concentrate on the main idea.

- Mordenkain

EDIT: Forgot to comment:

Unforturnately, making this kind of Metagame deck often fails to work in the Legacy environment. There is simply too much randomness. Out of the 6+ rounds you could possibly play at a large event, who knows how little of the Top Tier you could see.

Remember, if we main deck hate against classic win condition like the graveyard, and creatures, or hate will still hit a lot of randomess. But I still see the problem, sure I do, it's even why i choosed the title for the thread. Also, a transformal SB should be able to do the trick against most randomess. But sure it's a point to discuss, but lets take one step at a time.

[Iranon]

I'm not sure whether this the right way to accomplish what you want, but after reading your demands I immediately thought about permanent-based Control:



Senseis Divining Top + Counterbalance as your main engine...

Scroll Rack and Brainstorm as a quality engine that supports this...

Isochron Scepter as a flexible secondary engine if you want one...

Helm of Awakening + Brain Freeze as a creatureless win.

With so many critical costing 2 mana, Muddle the Mixture would be an excellent tutor.


There are heaps of interesting splash options; Black and White look most appealing (allied colours to blue so little mana problems). Both provide instants that are degenerate on a stick (Funeral Charm and Orim's Chant). Black offers Dark Confidant which should be good with all the library manipulation, white offers StP and Enlightened Tutor. With all the hand refinement and possibilities of shuffling useless cards away, it should be more than possible to run a little maindeck hate (such as Tormod's Crypt,

[UrDraco]

There is a small problem with makeing a creatureless deck. The decks to beat don't draw that many dead cards when you have no critters. Goblins Gempalm incinerators aren't as good but they still beat face. Solidarity loves not having to deal with creatures and will just take the few extra turns you gave it. The deck most impacted is, Thresh but that deck you have to have maindeck yardhate and non-targetted removal so it doesn't really care.

While the idea is a good one, right now thats all it is, an idea. Unless you can come up with some list of cards to start with you aren't doing much. Isn't everyone in this forum trying to make a new deck that crushes all the DTB's? I think if you want to make this deck do some research, borrow ideas from other decks, and follow your guidlines and give us a decklist. Although personally I think a creatureless stacks build that can survive hyperfast agro could be a new DTB.

[Brushwagg]

Hate decks really don't work to well in a wide open meta game, like Legacy is. Looking at the top teir decks they are leaps and bounds apart. Sure you could pack alot of creature hate for Goblins and Gro, but then you have a ton of dead cards for Solidarity, which I assume you would board for or visa versa.

If you were looking to build a hate a deck I probably would look toward 1 or 2 arch types. Say more often then not ones with creatures, since most decks in Legacy win by beats. There you have fewer dead cards and just give up the Combo match.


Senseis Divining Top + Counterbalance as your main engine...

Counterbalance sucks in Legacy. Sure on paper it is totally amazing and busted. The problem is when you put it into practice. I've put a few Counterbalance list together and it is really terrible.

The Scepter idea isn't half bad. You've got alot of good stuff to imprint. You haven't seen Research//Development on a stick it can get nuts pretty fast.

[Elfrago]

Play Chalice of The Void: it kills ********, it hurts Solidarity and Goblin and is usually at least useful aganist random things...

[Phantom]

Here's a few cards that are good against the top 3:


Chalice - Good against all tier one and a lot of randomness, but you need accel for it to work against Goblins (dropping it turn 2 or even on the draw is often crap)

Smallpox/pox - As mentioned above it hits creatures, lands and hands and there's no deck that cares about none of them.

Counterspell/Fow/Daze? - Pretty clear here, but not quite as useful vs. Gobs as Vial/Lackey can sneak things in and Fow 2-for-1's you.

Cabal Therapy - Suprisingly useful against Goblins, but requires critters.

Vindicate - No explanation needed.

Rolling earthquake - Clearly not great against Solidarity, but not completely dead if you're planning on winning through the damage route.

Jotun Grunt - Screws Thresh's Thresh, stalls Goblins, and puts Solidarity on a clock. Requires some specific deck design.

Phrexian Negator - Amazingly solid against Tier one (with the exception of Red Thresh), especially if you can power it out early.

Untargetable creatures - None of these decks run sweepers at all, so winning through combat isn't completely out of the question. Troll and Mongoose are the class of this genre, but there are some hidden gems like Ledgewalker and Gigapede.

Scepter - Certainly worth a look. You'd probably end up running a bunch of cards that are narrow to imprint on the scepter and end up getting screwed when you didn't draw a stick, pithing needle was down, or Goblins screwed with your mana.

Arcane Lab/Rule of Law/Trinisphere - I've never seen a deck pull it off, but if you could power these out early, and deny Goblins it's cheaters, these cards are actually pretty damn good vs. Tier 1.

Misdirection - Used to suck vs. Goblins, but now it seems every list is packing Stp, Disenchant, or Krosan Grip (EDIT: I'm an idiot. You can't MisD something with Split Second) . Lots of uses against Thresh and Solidarity in either stealing their draw spells or winning counter wars.

Shadow of Doubt - Nice cantrip that counters fetch lands and stifles matrons. Card and tempo advantage.

[Elfrago]

I'd add to phantom list Solitary confinement, wich is both usefol aganist aggro and combo decks

[Bane of the Living]

Im gonna have to suggest Reanimator. I understand we dont want a deck that relies on the graveyard, but running maindeck Chalice of the Void can prove as both a great weapon and protection from Tormod's Crypt. The deck can be designed around the 1cc spells so you can drop CotV for one as well. Nullifying StP and the Thresh game plan. Needle can name Crypt but also Vial against Goblins and Flooded Strand against Thresh and Solidarity. Since your in black you have Engineered Plague, Small Pox, and Negator. All aforementioned cards.

I truely believe a black disruption deck with a fast clock is the answer to the meta.

[Goblin Snowman]

Persecute happens to kill Solidarity and Goblins if it hits fast enough. I tried to make a Black Stax deck since Death Cloud, Small Pox, CotV, and Persecute all murder Tier One decks. Then I played nontier one things, like Angel Stax did.

[Complete_Jank]

The idea is interesting and could be a worthy one. Small Pox seems like a great card against the top 3 decks. Solidarity loves its lands and hand. Untargeted removal is solid against Thresh - as is LD sometimes. Against Goblins, the card at least seems decent.

Unforturnately, making this kind of Metagame deck often fails to work in the Legacy environment. There is simply too much randomness. Out of the 6+ rounds you could possibly play at a large event, who knows how little of the Top Tier you could see.

I have to agree with Peter_Rotten on this one.

I played The Ex-Girlfriend (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4520) at Star City Games Duel for the Duals, day one: It crushes Solidarity, Goblins, Threshold, and just about every combo deck in the format.

I played 7 complete rounds, and never played a single Solidarity, Goblins, Threshold, or Iggy player, and they made up over 50% of the field. I even won and was in the winners bracket after the first round as well.


I currently have a new deck that is designed to work on a similar concept that The Ex-Girlfriend works on. I haven't come up with a catchy name yet, but I usually don't name decks til I've been playing the deck awhile, and it deserves one. It uses Small Pox and Braids, and in the little play testing that has been played, it is pretty strong, but more play testing is needed.

Here's the link http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4599

[Mordenkain]

First of all, nice to see interest in the idea, keep it up! =)

I think your concern about the deck would get beat by randomness isn't really that justified. I mean, unless we start playing Tivadar's Crusade, I think if we would beat most randomness. Our graveyard hate against Thres would most likely hit random decks that abuses the graveyard too. Then, Anti-Creature cards can be sided out if there is nothing to fire at.

I think we be using Chalice too. This card has a huge potential, and if we build the deck to use 2cc cards, then would could drop it for 1, and nearly not feel it ourselves.

Also, I think discard is the way to go, being usefull against both Solidarity and Thres, and not complete shit against Goblins.

Red has lots of creature removal, rolling earthquake, lightning bolt, etc. which also doubles as win condition in a pinch.

That leaves us with Red and Black. White wouldn't be that bad too, giving acess to Swords to Plowshares, and Exalted Angel... Vindicate too, btw.

So being based on burn as removal and secondary win condition, supported by white creatures as main win condition and black as support, for discard and vindicate. And of course chalice. Also by playing three colors, it gives us acess to Engineered Explosives.

So what you think of this idea?

- Mordenkain

EDIT: Btw, forgot to mention Tabernacle of the Pendra Vale. It should be some good against Goblins and Thres as well.

EDIT2: Thinking more about it, here is a decklist to start of the discussion:

// Lands
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Plateau
4 Badlands
4 Scrubland

// Creatures
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Burning Wish
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Helix
3 Rolling Earthquake
4 Vindicate

Wishboard excluded. Let it begin. =)

[Elfrago]

Well, IMHO the deck is really nice! I only have 3 concerns about it:

1)Exalted Angel: When she comes down aganist gobbos it's amazing, but at six mana (or three then four) for a deck without any mana accelleration it could be too slow. The same aganist Solidarity and Iggy, and versus ***** it's fine but nothing more. Maybe it has to be replaced by something faster.

2)The lack of a draw engine. I fear that the deck may just run out of gas!

3)LANDS!! Only 16 mana producing lands, without any cantrips or draw its just crazy! Also add basic lands or wasteland gonna kill you (and Goblins gonna kill you too!)

[Complete_Jank]

Did you even bother to read what I posted, or are you just continueing this thread in the direction you want it to go, and ignore the imputs from others.

You say you want to use Chalice of the Void, then you want to put 12 cards that cost 1 in your deck. You will be rocked by Chalice at one even if you chose not to run it. I designed my deck that I run to use Chalice at both 1 and 2. With both of those in play, I only would lose 12 card total, but know other decks would loose much more.

You have 6 main win conditions. I run a deck with 9, and know how getting them can sometimes be difficult, specially if one or two of your win conditions gets STP.

You have no basic lands, put basic swamps in the deck, matter of fact, why don't you use the mana base from my deck. It is Black/White/Red.

[Warmonger]

Currently I'm testing Pox Stax which plays maindeck Chalice AND Sphere of Resistance which wreckes all cheap & massive strategies, Pox deals well with every threat these decks may have, sideboard Bridges deal well with any played creatures and Nether Spirits do their job once the board is clear.
The deck is fast beacuse of normal Stax manabase and Rituals which allow funy things like 1st turn Stax.

[freakish777]

1) Maindeck hate.

2) Win creatureless.

3) Many decks in legacy is depending on they graveyard to able to win the game.

4) We shouldn't be losing to a single counterspell.

5) 2 + 3 = Haunting Echoes.

6) 4 + 5 = Discard.


I'll let you guys figure out the rest of this story (the MD hate portion).

[Mordenkain]

Did you even bother to read what I posted, or are you just continueing this thread in the direction you want it to go, and ignore the imputs from others.

You say you want to use Chalice of the Void, then you want to put 12 cards that cost 1 in your deck. You will be rocked by Chalice at one even if you chose not to run it. I designed my deck that I run to use Chalice at both 1 and 2. With both of those in play, I only would lose 12 card total, but know other decks would loose much more.

You have 6 main win conditions. I run a deck with 9, and know how getting them can sometimes be difficult, specially if one or two of your win conditions gets STP.

You have no basic lands, put basic swamps in the deck, matter of fact, why don't you use the mana base from my deck. It is Black/White/Red.

Easy now. If you see the list, the deck i putted together don't run chalice. It was just a starter to get the main idea going. I see your points, but don't be that harsh please.
I didn't include chalice because I thought that I was gonna hit myself to much, but ofcourse the deck can be reworked to deal with that.
Also, you havent counted the wishboard which most likely would contain haunting echoes.


Well, IMHO the deck is really nice! I only have 3 concerns about it:

1)Exalted Angel: When she comes down aganist gobbos it's amazing, but at six mana (or three then four) for a deck without any mana accelleration it could be too slow. The same aganist Solidarity and Iggy, and versus ***** it's fine but nothing more. Maybe it has to be replaced by something faster.

2)The lack of a draw engine. I fear that the deck may just run out of gas!

3)LANDS!! Only 16 mana producing lands, without any cantrips or draw its just crazy! Also add basic lands or wasteland gonna kill you (and Goblins gonna kill you too!)

Again, it's was to get people to see the main idea behind it. I think we should get some categories made now:

Discard
Removal
Draw/Tutor
Win Condition
Mana Base

So how many cards shall we devote to each type?

[GoTreK]

Your decklist looked pretty interesting! The whole idea is actually quite cool and that's why I'd really like to help here.

Discard: Hymn (doesn't need more explanation), even if BB could be an issue sometimes. But I'd like to include something else...

Removal: - Vindicate, it's just so versatile and never dead
- Lightninx Helix, removal AND buys time against fast aggro
- Magma Jet, card quality and removal
- Rolling earthquake is a good idea as well (mass removal + damage against e.g. combo)

Draw/Tutor: I'd use Night's Whisper. Draws 2 cards and the lifeloss is not that painful along with 4 Helix. (We should keep in mind that we have Jet as well) Wishboard: Pyroclasm, Haunting Echoes, Boiling Seas

Win Condition: Grunt is nice for the obvious reasons but Exalted Angel might indeed be too slow. But right now I can't think of a better option to be honest.

Manabase: That's only an idea but what about tithe for a more stable manabase? And what about running chrome moxen? They would allow for turn1 chalice @1.

[noobslayer]

With enough tweaking, a psycatog variant sporting Grave-shell Scarab could fit this criteria. The only conern is the graveyard hate it becomes succeptable to.

[Bane of the Living]

That leaves us with Red and Black. White wouldn't be that bad too, giving acess to Swords to Plowshares, and Exalted Angel... Vindicate too, btw.

So being based on burn as removal and secondary win condition, supported by white creatures as main win condition and black as support, for discard and vindicate. And of course chalice. Also by playing three colors, it gives us acess to Engineered Explosives.

So what you think of this idea?

- Mordenkain


OK I thought we decided the deck should stay 1-2 colors to avoid mana screw and problems with non basic land hate? With that in mind we should drop white. You want to add creatureless win conditions and no specific creature removal like swords. Like Haunting Echoes. Maybe we should focus on that.

[noobslayer]

Tog variants have next to no mana issues. And they have echoes at their disposal for a back-up creatureless win condition.

[GoTreK]

Ok I briefly thought about a Reanimator variant that meets the criteria you established and that's what I came up with:

// Lands
15 [CHK] Swamp

// Creatures
3 [MI] Spirit of the Night
4 [DIS] Simic Sky Swallower
4 [LE] Akroma, Angel of Wrath

// Spells
4 [ON] Strongarm Tactics
3 [US] Exhume
4 [TE] Abandon Hope
4 [OD] Zombie Infestation
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [IA] Dance of the Dead
4 [A] Animate Dead
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

#1 "The gun is loaded": maindeck hate
- Chalice hates Combo and also hits Gobbos and *****. It's also great against crypt when set @0 (with that list either 0 and 1 are possible)

#2 "How you like that STP now, punk?": win creatureless
While we do run creatures for the win they are really hard to remove and we can revive them if need be (ok STP still sucks but at least we have SSS)

#3 "Say goodbye to your memories": GY dependance
Indeed we unfortunarely depend on the GY but not that much since Chalice can take care of Crypt and furthermore the opponent has mostly only 1 round (possibly even 0) to hit the GY cuz after that the creature will be online.

#4 "Tell me, do I look like i care?": Counterspells
As you wished, we'd use a category of spells, namely 11 reanimate spells ;)


I especially like about the list that we have 12 discard outlets and every single one of them has a second purpose. ZI provides chump blocker to slow down aggro and enhances our clock. S Tactics is discard (remember: we WANT to discard) as well as direct damage (e.g. against Solidarity, Iggy whatever). We can kill a full turn faster.
Abandon Hope is actually a bomb unless I'm not very much mistaken, because I'm wondering right now why nobody else used to play it. Am I missing something?
We want to find an outlet to discard Akroma, SSS and Spirit AND we look for a way to disrupt the opponent. What about first round Swamp & Mox/Petal --> Abandon Hope --> discard any creature/s & maybe any other card + take away the 1/2/3 most important cards from your opponent.

I realize that the list is quite rough but what about the main idea?
As to the creaturebase I thought as well about Sundering Titan, Razia and Phantom Nishoba... ???
I'd really appreciate some opinions! :smile:

[Elfrago]

Hope sucks, you have to pay x mana too! Last rites is much better

[MysticBlue]

Interesting concept list. Taking the Haunting Echoes theme and trying to fit it into your criteria, I have pulled together the following list. It's rough, it ain't pretty, but it does seem to fit... sort of.



// Lands
4 Underground
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire (shuffle effect, really)
1 Flooded Strand (shuffle effect, really)
4 Swamp
4 Island

// Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress/Cabal Therapy
3 Persecute *IMPORTANT CARD, stalling for time

3 Glimpse the Unthinkable *Crack just before Echoes or vs Brainstorm/Predict
2 Haunting Echoes *WIN CONDITION, vulnerable to Meddling Mage

1 Hideous Laughter *the only dead card in a creatureless matchup. sweeper effect too important to leave out completely though, given the creatureless and relatively slow nature of this deck. -2/-2 might be poor vs biggies (e.g. Thres), but keeping in mind that you can Echoes thres, that might be a way out... 'sides, Thres' clock isn't as scary as Gobbos'

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
2 Mystical Tutor/Spy Network/Serum Visions/some other cantrip
4 Lim-Dul's Vault *spending about 3-7 life on average should guarantee you whatever you want the next draw. important to find hideous laughter early vs Gobbos, and Echoes later. almost as powerful as vamp tutor. not quite, but then again, it ain't banned.

4 Dark Ritual *powering early persecutes
3 Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal


-----------------------------------------------

#1 "The gun is loaded": maindeck hate
There isn't really direct hate, except for Laughter vs Gobbos (and other random weenie aggro like Deadguy). However, discard + counters + persecute should provide significant disruption. With Glimpse, which screws up library scanning, I *hope* this is sufficient to keep most opponents off balance.


#2 "How you like that STP now, punk?": win creatureless
...


#3 "Say goodbye to your memories": GY dependance
Well, I depend on filling the opponent's GY, which is risky vs GY-dependent decks, but probably worth the risk generally. 'sides, if the opponent is going to aid my Echoes, it means less early resources committed to getting cards into his graveyard for Echoes to hit.
2 cards pose problems, 1 being fairly commonly played - Jotun Grunt and Planar Void. Suggestions?


#4 "Tell me, do I look like i care?": Counterspells
I counter back. And make you discard your counterspells on top of that. Hah.

[noobslayer]

That deck seems to roll over to a resolved creature with an ass greater than 2.

EDIT: A few "dead" slots for removal isn't terrible.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm finding it amusing that we've got a very solid contender that's already started that fits nearly all of this criteria (except creatureless win):

Deadguy Ale/Red Death

Don't forget the point of the deck originally was to have solid gameplan vs Goblins, as well as a decent out against random aggro and Solidarity. It's in my opinion the best metagame deck currently in contention to support hate for both combo and aggro.

Problem is, the top 3 evolved (even slightly), and Deadguy was just too slow, before Grunt and Small Pox showed up. Now with those additions to tweak the decks speed and control, there's a good 5 or 6 of us on that thread working pretty hard to solidify a good aggro/control version of it that is even more consistent than the original.

Why don't we throw in a somewhat current list of that (I can go get mine if need be), and take a look at what we consider weaknesses that particular build has, and work from there?

It's a VERY good start on what you're requesting of the deck, and with the exception of Haunting Echoes, it can run some savage graveyard hate in Withered Wretch and Tormod's Crypt.

EDIT: In addition, both versions of Rogue have color combinations very capable of providing top notch hate, so even if we don't look at either of them, I'd highly suggest either a W/B or R/B build anyways.

[Complete_Jank]

Well. I went undefeated in my first tourney with my Black/White deck that I am now running.

Take a look here if you like. http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4599

[Mordenkain]

I'm finding it amusing that we've got a very solid contender that's already started that fits nearly all of this criteria (except creatureless win):

Deadguy Ale/Red Death

Don't forget the point of the deck originally was to have solid gameplan vs Goblins, as well as a decent out against random aggro and Solidarity. It's in my opinion the best metagame deck currently in contention to support hate for both combo and aggro.

Problem is, the top 3 evolved (even slightly), and Deadguy was just too slow, before Grunt and Small Pox showed up. Now with those additions to tweak the decks speed and control, there's a good 5 or 6 of us on that thread working pretty hard to solidify a good aggro/control version of it that is even more consistent than the original.

Why don't we throw in a somewhat current list of that (I can go get mine if need be), and take a look at what we consider weaknesses that particular build has, and work from there?

It's a VERY good start on what you're requesting of the deck, and with the exception of Haunting Echoes, it can run some savage graveyard hate in Withered Wretch and Tormod's Crypt.

EDIT: In addition, both versions of Rogue have color combinations very capable of providing top notch hate, so even if we don't look at either of them, I'd highly suggest either a W/B or R/B build anyways.

Exellent idea! I think it would be nice if you did post that list. It seems like a very good idea. Working from Deadguy Ale/Red Death, by eliminating their weaknesses.
It would either have to be speeded up, or be added with more control. But let's see the list at first.

- Mordenkain

[DeathwingZERO]

Since I'm completely lacking my deck at the moment (I think it's hidden somewhere), here's what I can remember off the top of my head:

Lands/Mana:26
6x Fetch (split between polluted delta and bloodstained mire)
4x Scrubland
1x Godless Shrine (was Tainted Field, but fetchability makes it worth the 2 life loss)
11x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual

Creatures:14
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Jotun Grunt

Disruption:20
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x Small Pox

Sideboard:15
4x Ghostly Prison (Still needs to be tested over E. Plague) or E. Plague
4x Withered Wretch/Leyline of the Void (still testing Leyline)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pithing Needle/Dystopia depending on metagame

This is the list I've got right now. Sideboard choices can be changed, maindeck things can be tweaked (I've still yet to test with Volrath's Stronghold, which I've been considering), and I honestly have yet to do real testing with Small Pox and a 22 land manabase. Still thinking about cutting 2 lands to put back in Gerrard's Verdict. Undecided. Funeral Charm also needs to be tested.

All in all, the only things I'm very sure of are as follows:

-Confidant is a MUST. He can NEVER go under 4 of.
-Small Pox + Jotun Grunt cast right after or next turn, SAVAGE tempo advantage on his part, he stays in at minimum 3 age counters worth of time (4 turns total) due to Small Pox being at minimum 6 cards in graveyard after casting.
-Wasteland is a metagame choice. I play without it, mainly because with Sinkhole + Small Pox, I already have land advantage on the average. However, it's absolutely necessary if you see a lot of Goblins or anything else with Rishidan Ports/Wastelands of their own. Scrubland/Godless is the only white source in the deck, and we can't do much about that. Also, being short of 3 mana at any given time, sucks the tempo right out of this deck.

Changes can be made, though I still like the consistency this deck has with control. I really don't care about random aggro, this thing is mainly to kill off Goblins, have good game vs Solidarity, and keep Thresh at bay.

[Mordenkain]

Lands/Mana:26
6x Fetch (split between polluted delta and bloodstained mire)
4x Scrubland
1x Godless Shrine (was Tainted Field, but fetchability makes it worth the 2 life loss)
11x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual

Creatures:14
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Jotun Grunt

Disruption:20
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x Small Pox

The idea is good, but we need to rework it to be able to win through creature hate, mainly stp.
I really support the idea of including Grunt and Confidant. The mana base is really solid too, not rolling to wastelands. I like.
I don't really know if im a fan of smallpox. Would you please enlightened me, why it's so good?

[Elfrago]

Add creatures that are hard to remove like Hand of Honor/Black Knight(protection from STP), Phyrexian Totem (Resistant to WoG effects) and the like...

[DeathwingZERO]

Negator itself as well as the Totem were talked about in the Deadguy thread, but the big problem we have with it in the B/W version is the lack of permanents to toss into him since we have very little in terms of direct removal maindeck. In the R/B version, there's plenty of burn, whereas here we only have Vindicate and StP post SB. That's both a little too slow, and too mana intensive (Totem) to get him to swing consistently. We tend to have spells to cast each turn, and the additional 3 mana per swing causes us to slow down on the disruption.

As for the Smallpox, I say run a few tests with it. This card is rediculous. Untargeted removal (hits Mongoose, the ONLY spell in the deck that can), takes out a land plus a card in hand, and serves as minor ping damage, helping us push through that last little bit of damage if needed. Here's some bonuses it has:

Vs Solidarity- Hits a card + a Land. Two for one, in addition to slowing them down at least a turn. Our manabase doesn't really care about needing mana on table to be equal or greater than 3 lands, with a tighter curve than them as well as way more disruption than their countermagic. This is huge boost where Wasteland failed us. On top of that, we'll rarely have important things to pitch to this from discarding, typically my choice is another land or something like a Hyppie, where they'll have to either waste a Brainstorm, or ditch a possibly critical spell.

Vs Goblins- Nearly ALWAYS hits a Creature, Land, and card in hand. Typically the turn 2 answer to Lackey before he can swing (if on the play), or can help you get rid of whatever drops after him (on the draw), plus it takes out crucial red mana, or a land we don't want to deal with (Port or Wasteland). In addition, it gives some serious matchup boost when you drop Grunt along with it, as he blocks a serious majority of their creatures for multiple turns (and forces them to throw Incinerators at him instead of Bob)

Vs Thresh- #1 reason: can hit Mongoose. HUGE disadvantage both versions of Deadguy have, is dealing with untargetable creatures. Neither have the power to outright get rid of the Mongoose, and a single one can typically cause huge problems, often being larger than our creatures. Also can get rid of crucial counterspells in a pinch, plus hit them for much needed lands, both for Daze or short-ended mana for "off" color spells, such as burn (U/G/r), or StP/Mage (U/G/w).

Still looking at Spectral Lynx as a possible addition, as it has good synergy with the remainder of the deck in hate against Thresh (pro green + regeneration = amazing).....but he was better when Jitte was in the deck, and personally I got rid of it (even with 3, it was hard for it to be consistent, especially against the Big Three). Hand of Cruelty or Black Knight might be worth looking into as well.

EDIT: Personally I think the deck needs to go a more control route, rather than being sped up. With card advantage like Confidant, and a good selection of both creature/land destruction and disruption, I believe it needs to tie one or the other into a more continuous approach. More than likely creature/land removal, as Solidarity shows up much less often than either Gobbo's or Thresh, and reoccuring hand disruption can only go so far with any of the top 3, really. Given most of our creatures are less than "stellar" with damage, if we can keep a good run for the first few turns, Grunt or Shade should be able to stay in long enough to seal the deal.

I've also been considering running things in the sideboard that were less than conventional for Legacy. Mostly in the realm of Persecute, Cranial Extraction, and the like. Getting to Thresh's Mystic Enforcer, Mage, or Mongoose, Goblin's Piledrivers, Warchiefs, and Ringleaders, and Solidarities Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze's seems pretty solid. After you hit the primary focus of the decks, they tend to be random good cards that aren't nearly as good without the spine of the deck.

[Illissius]

I think the way to go is the Tomb, City, Mox manabase plus Chalice of the Void. A Chalice for one singlehandedly wrecks Threshold, forces High Tide to remove it before they have a chance at winning, and isn't half bad against Goblins on the play. So start with Chalice, and then spend the rest of the deck on beating Goblins. The two colors that stand out as being the best for this sort of strategy are blue and black. Blue has Trinket Mage to fetch Chalice, while black has Rituals to make your openings even more consistent, and Engineered Plague. You could combine the two at the cost of making your manabase completely Wasteable, or the monocolor builds could be something along the lines of:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Propaganda
4 Sea Sprite
4 Weatherseed Faeries
2 Sea Drake
4 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bonesplitter
1 Cursed Scroll
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Darksteel Citadel
10 Island
SB: 4 Chill
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

After boarding, you have 8 backbreaking 2-mana artifacts, 12 ways to play them turn one, and six pitch counters as backup. Against Goblins, I'm not sure whether Chills and Needles, or just 8 Blasts is the better plan, or something else like Saprazzan Legate or Brass Man.

Or in black:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Ebon Drake
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Engineered Plague
4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
8 Swamp
and 4 other cards

A Negator with a Sword is, incidentally, quite insane. Turn two, swing for ten?

[Plank]

A Negator with a Sword is, incidentally, quite insane. Turn two, swing for ten?

He'd only be hitting for 9. Also, to get that it'd be turn 1 swamp, ritual, negator. Turn 2 ritual, ritual, sword, equip. That's a nuts draw, not too likely though.

[Illissius]

Hmm, for some reason I thought Sword dealt 3. My bad.
On the other hand, the nuts draw is actually:
Turn one: City/Tomb, Mox, Negator
Turn two: City/Tomb/Ritual, Sword, equip, swing
Which still isn't terribly likely, but much more so than relying on just Rituals.

[Bane of the Living]

How is negator a meta choice against goblins?

[Complete_Jank]

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4784

Check out this deck.


Also, I think Negator is a horrible creature.

[DeathwingZERO]

Personally, I think Trinket Mage has to be the worst tutor advocated throughout any Legacy decks I've seen. The only reason it's used in Faerie Stompy builds is because it can use equipment, pitch to FoW, and can come out turn 1 with enough acceleration. This still doesn't guarantee the ability to drop either a Needle or Chalice @ 1 (cause 0 against any of the 3 topdecks is retarded) on turn 1.

As for the Braids deck, I personally don't see it's matchups (which were on it's thread) being ANYWHERE near as good as they are stated. Deadguy Ale runs a faster clock with more threats as well as practically the same disruption engine, and my matchups vs Solidarity at absolute best case scenario game 1 is 60%, if I'm on the play. Game 2 and 3, I could possibly bring in Chalice and hope to topdeck it, but that's about as much hate as I devote to combo.

In addition, I was pretty certain I've explained the complete lack of Negator. In Goblin matchups, he's a suicide play. A first turn Negator = any of their goblins turning into card advantage against you. In Thresh matchups, they chump once or twice until you have barely anything on the board, then throw down all their creatures because you no longer can cast your disruption. Vs Solidarity....well, at best he's a turn faster than Grunt, when swinging on their own, and the same speed if you have a second creature.

Creature resilience to StP: the only deck that packs it is UGw Thresh. This is by no means a reason to weaken the overall strength of your threats. Confidant and Grunt hurt their gameplan, they will take the blunt of StP hits. StP has never really been a problem, because you pack just as many threats as they do, and with the addition of Withered Wretch from the sideboard, they have to either find a Needle (if they play it SB), or StP him to prevent your creatures from overpowering theirs. In all honesty, I fear Mage much more than StP, and that's why I pack StP's of my own in the SB.

I've actually taken over the idea of playing 1 MD Volrath's Stronghold. This I believe is the answer to the "more threats" problem the deck lacked. You lose 1 Swamp, which hardly cuts back your black production on turn 1, and gain the ability to bring back any creature taken out short of StP. This basically increases the threats by about 50%, which is just shy of Goblins in creature count (and their threats don't come back).

I've solidified the sideboard for the time being. I decided that the "loss" of Dark Ritual and Duress is a fair trade for the power of Chalice of the Void. It cripples the main accelerant of Solidarity, hurts the Thresh draw and removal spells, and Mongoose (which we really don't like seeing), and cuts back 2/3 of Goblin's turn 1 plays (if your on the play w/Rit).

Here's the latest version with the minor changes:

Lands/Mana:26
6x Fetch
4x Scrubland
1x Godless Shrine
10x Swamp
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Dark Ritual

Creatures:14
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Jotun Grunt

Disruption:20
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x Small Pox

Sideboard:15
4x Engineered Plague
4x Withered Wretch
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Chalice of the Void

I'm going to be doing more testing over the weekend vs Solidarity and Goblins, and let you in on what I believe to be the weaker cards in the deck. Oh, and in case some of you still want to playtest with Wasteland, my build subtracts 2 Swamp and 2 Fetch in for them. Cuts back the % of guaranteed double black on turn 2, but not by an amount that's very noticable.

I'd like to see some people actually testing this deck, as I don't see Deadguy being "too slow" anymore thanks to the power of Grunt and Smallpox. The synergy the two cards have in addition to Grunt being larger than most of the other 2 aggro decks creatures, is a very good addition.