[Discussion] What black hate do threshold players fear most?

[rsaunder]

So, I know there are some pretty serious threshold players here, and I was hoping you could help me to, well, beat you. I've been debating back and forth on multiple Deadguy threads about the merits of Dystopia VS Perish, as a SB slot. I've had success with both, but under different circumstances. As I believe it was Dratho said, the unpredictability and ability to stick around of Dystopia gives it an edge over the sheer power of Perish. Which of these two choices bothers you the most? Does it make a difference for UGr or UGw?

I've been testing the matchup a decent amount, but really haven't come to a definitive conclusion, so I really appreciate any feedback you could give me. Also, if there is something (other than Jotun Grunt) that would worry you more from a Deadguy's board, I'd love to know about it.

Peace!
-chris

[Cavius The Great]

Stuff like Innocent Blood and Small Pox come to mind. But I'm not sure if you would run those SB or not. It really depends on the deck.

[AnwarA101]

If you put a gun to a threshold player's head I believe that gun would Dystopia. It is devastating. Though I think it has to be put in a deck with an aggressive strategy. You need to be able to put real threats on the board without such a plan the Dystopia will die and then your Threshold opponent will drop his creatures. Without the luxury of waiting around for Dystopia to disappear they are usually put in a difficult position.

[Phantom]

Well, I'm not a Threshold master, but I personally believe that Leyline of the Void is the best Thresh hate out there and a very underplayed card.

Unlike the cards you mentioned, Leyline is often uncounterable. Boarding in something like 4 Perishs is often times the equivalent of saying, ok, let's play last game but you play without 4 Force of Wills. Is that good? Sure. Is it great? Hardly. Also, unlike Perish or Dystopia, Leyline discourages a recovery.

Preboard, Thresh has virtually no answer for Leyline. Postboard, they will often board in 2-3 answers, which they will likely have to dig for. Even if they are successful, all the cantrips they have used to find an answer will not count toward threshold and it will often be too much for them to recover from.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, I'm not a Threshold master, but I personally believe that Leyline of the Void is the best Thresh hate out there and a very underplayed card.

Unlike the cards you mentioned, Leyline is often uncounterable. Boarding in something like 4 Perishs is often times the equivalent of saying, ok, let's play last game but you play without 4 Force of Wills. Is that good? Sure. Is it great? Hardly. Also, unlike Perish or Dystopia, Leyline discourages a recovery.

Preboard, Thresh has virtually no answer for Leyline. Postboard, they will often board in 2-3 answers, which they will likely have to dig for. Even if they are successful, all the cantrips they have used to find an answer will not count toward threshold and it will often be too much for them to recover from.
Agreed. In the meantime, all their creatures are easily dealt your Innocent Bloods, Smallpoxes, Infests, and other removal, should you feel inclined to use such cards on mere 1/1 men.

[The Rack]

Is Leyline postboard gg then? I'm curios to what exactly thresh brings in blindly against any deck that runs black. What if the opposing deck doesn't play a Leyline but thresh has 3 Naturalizes in? I never play Thresh so I have no idea. What do you think?

[Maveric78f]

The best hate is hymn to tourach, because it enables to play devastating spells afterwards, even if it's countered.

Dystopia is better than Perish except if you play yourself green or white which are the best support for black (I don't believe in monoblack decks). If you play SUI-black you should avoid it too because of the life loss.

Perish is a too focussed sideboarding. It's good only against thresh, elves, RGSA and some zoos (and SSS of reanimator). Except Thresh, these are very rare decks.

Leyline is good against a lot of decks but it's useless if it's not put into play at the beginning of the game, so that you'll need to mulligan a lot in order to take advantage from it.

[Team-Hero]

I like Culling Scales if you can get it out. It's easy for black to pump it out whenever it needs it because of dark ritual.

[Eldariel]

Problem with Scales is, if there's a Mongoose in play, it'll do nothing as Mongoose will be the cheapest permanent and it's untargetable.

Out of those 2, I'd go with Dystopia. It clears the board, and also keeps it clear. UGw is obviously more vulnerable to it than UGr since UGw's Mystic Enforcer and Meddling Mage are also going to die to it, and it even kills Worship or such they might bring in. UGr has the potential Fledgling Dragon and whatever techy Wee Dragonauts or whatever they feel like playing, and they can also more easily capitalize on the lifeloss of Dystopia with their burn; UGw is forced to try and do so with creatures. All in all, I find Dystopia better against UGw and Perish against UGr, but I prefer Dystopia as it hits so many decks (Angel Stompy et al) and even provides an easy answer to problem white enchantments.

[Cavius The Great]

Planar Void is also very good now that you guys mentioned Leyline. It's basically multiple cards of leyline and leyline 5-8. Withered Wretch is also good and doubles as a threat. Withered Wretch is able keep them off seven cards in their yard most the time which is a major plus.

You also have to keep in mind that Dystopia feeds the graveyard, so you have to be confident that you can kill your opponent before he draws into more creatures.

[Phantom]

Is Leyline postboard gg then? I'm curios to what exactly thresh brings in blindly against any deck that runs black. What if the opposing deck doesn't play a Leyline but thresh has 3 Naturalizes in? I never play Thresh so I have no idea. What do you think?

I doubt they would bring the naturalizes in blindly (unless the deck ran some sore of nasty artifacts or enchantments). They would probably board in needles expecting Crypt or Wretch.

Edit: Also, I agree with everyone about Dystopia > Perish in most meta's.

[Bryant Cook]

I doubt they would bring the naturalizes in blindly (unless the deck ran some sore of nasty artifacts or enchantments). They would probably board in needles expecting Crypt or Wretch.

Edit: Also, I agree with everyone about Dystopia > Perish in most meta's.

When I played Threshold I feared Withered Wretch and Dystopia. If you were playing both it was an uphill battle unless my draws were discusting.

[Solpugid]

Leyline of the void.

Just one more reason why I run a maindeck echoing truth.

[Cavius The Great]

Diabolic Edict and Chainer's Edict is also pretty nasty against Thresh and they're also not dead draws against just about anything else except Solidarity and the likes.

[Complete_Jank]

Leyline is the answer, and it is also an answer for many other decks as well.

[Parcher]

Anwar is correct.

The most devastating card is Dystopia. I cannot count how many games I have won swinging with 1/1 creatures. Leyline only delays the inevitable, and after the first becomes a dead card. If you have nothing to back it up, it doesn't matter. Dystopia forces the Threshold player to make difficult decisions with little to no information. The effect happens independantly of will, so the Black player could have absolutely nothing in hand, or could have the Nuts and be holding back. Even worse, it forces the Threshold player into the Aggro role against most Black decks. Either cast your creatures and watch them die, or hold them counting on the life loss, and get them Hymned out of your hand. Perish costs effectively the same for a one-shot effect. As a SB card, Dystopia breaks the rules for Black in general, as it allows you to remove Enchantments. Something that gives it much more flexibility against decks other than Threshold.

After Dystopia, I'd say the most feared cards are Chalice(not Black, but playable by), Hymn, Diabolic Edict, then the graveyard spells.

[rsaunder]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate it.

After quite a few more test games I'm starting to like Dystopia more and more because there's a good chance th other guy will play around it wrong. I'm totally sold on it VS perish. Leyline seems excellent as well, but it doesn't do much for other problem matchups. That said, I'm not convinced it isn't more effective hate. Time will tell.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Chains of Mephistopheles is pretty awesome if you have the money.

[rsaunder]

Chains of Mephistopheles is pretty awesome if you have the money.Sorry, but you're just wrong. I played chains as threshold hate for a while and it did less against them than the dead cards I sided out. Seriously, it had like, no effect on any thresh player worth thier salt (MadZur, Whit3_Ghost, etc.)

[The Rack]

However it is tech against Solidarity though...

[xsockmonkeyx]

Well, there's no need for snarkiness. How is it possible that a card that they have to play around is worse than a dead card?

[Cavius The Great]

The fact that Chains of mephistopheles feeds the graveyard is probably why it isn't so hot against Threshold. It is tech agianst Solidarity though.

[rsaunder]

The fact that Chains of mephistopheles feeds the graveyard is probably why it isn't so hot against Threshold. It is tech agianst Solidarity though.It wasn't even really that, it was the fact that they didn't seem to be effected at all.
Sure it may have stopped a cantrip later game, but it really appeared to do nothing.

Against things like rifter and solidarity, yeah, it's the balls. Sorry about any snarkiness.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Sorry, but you're just wrong. I played chains as threshold hate for a while and it did less against them than the dead cards I sided out. Seriously, it had like, no effect on any thresh player worth thier salt (MadZur, Whit3_Ghost, etc.)
Thanks for the compliment, although I've barely playtested you with Thresh :cool: .

Yeah, I'll second Chris's sentiments (minus the snarkiness of course) I've watched many games involving Chains, and for the most part(except ritual-> duress/chains) it hasn't done much.

As for Dystopia vs. Perish, it's pretty dependent on what you expect to see.

Thresh/Stompy/RGSA- Perish, because it's a ton better against RGSA and prevents Stompy from recurring Rancor to Dystopia.

I'd run Dystopia in the modern, more generalized metagame, because you can run it as a disenchant effect.

[xsockmonkeyx]

No worries. I was under the impression that Chains was pretty good because it keeps the Thresh player from achieving their card quality goal, somewhat. Personally Ive had some success but if your opponant knows how to play around it then obviously it loses its effectiveness. If your looking to completely stop them then chains isnt going to do that, it will just slow them down a little. MWS players are pretty crappy though(I dont own any real chains so all my play with that card was on the computer).

You know, in retrospect, it kinda played like a crappy Rule of Law except somewhat onesided and narrow. So I could see you dismissing that card for the Thresh MU and even justify the snark a bit :P

[rsaunder]

No worries. I was under the impression that Chains was pretty good because it keeps the Thresh player from achieving their card quality goal, somewhat. Personally Ive had some success but if your opponant knows how to play around it then obviously it loses its effectiveness. If your looking to completely stop them then chains isnt going to do that, it will just slow them down a little. MWS players are pretty crappy though(I dont own any real chains so all my play with that card was on the computer).

You know, in retrospect, it kinda played like a crappy Rule of Law except somewhat onesided and narrow. So I could see you dismissing that card for the Thresh MU and even justify the snark a bit :PI guess I had thought about it so long and thought it would be so awesome, that it was such a big let down when I finally got to test the stupid things. I guess I personally do have something against chains of mephastopheles.

So, Whit3_Ghost, you really would rather see dystopia than perish with thresh?