PDA

View Full Version : [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?



emidln
11-23-2006, 06:44 PM
I like combo decks, Legacy combo decks in particular. This thread is for comparisons and discussion. If we can leave the comments here, we can keep the actual threads on decks like Iggy Pop, Nausea, Contract Tendrils, TES, Veggie Tendrils on subject at seriously evolving the decks. Additionally, I've found that discussion on differences in combo decks leads to sparks for new ideas and combinations, and this leads to better decks. For purposes of fast combo, I'm including 2-land belcher, Contract Tendrils/SI, Nausea, Iggy Pop, TES, and Veggie Tendrils. If I'm leaving something out, let me know.

I'd like to start off with how to avoid hate. So far, I've seen a variety of different answers to threats like Meddling Mage, Tormod's Crypt, Wasteland, Duress/Discard, Force of Will/countermagic, Orim's Chant, enchantments like Pyrostatic Pillar and Rule of Law, etc.

TES, Belcher and Contract Tendrils play multiple threats and alternate win conditions. Veggie Tendrils, Nausea, and Iggy Pop all play some form of bounce/removal. What is the best way to respond to:

Meddling Mage
Tormod's Crypt
Wasteland
Basic land destruction (Sinkhole, Vindicate, Ghost Quarter)
Cheap Discard (Duress/Cabal Therapy)
Countermagic (FoW, Daze, Counterspell)
Orim's Chant/Abeyance
Pyrostatic Pillar
Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory

Hopefully, we can work out some strategies to improve our game against hate. When responding, please don't say something like "SI ignores crypt." These comments aren't helpful. If you're going to post something, please explain it so we can make something out of the comment.

Finally, I'd like to ask all of the deck creators to send me an "official" list for comparison. I'm going to post those here. I'll change them if asked to, but I'd like to have easily available what builds and cards we're actually discussing. I'll post them alphabetically to avoid preferences.

---------
Decklists
---------
Belcher by Diablos

Maindeck:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Chromatic Star
3 Goblin Welder
4 Land Grant
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress


Iggy Pop by bomholmm

Maindeck:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Cabal Pit
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
1 Wipe Away

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Defense Grid
1 Wipe Away
3 Massacre
1 Echoing Truth
3 Meta Slots


Nausea by Evil Roopey

Maindeck:
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 City of Traitors
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Chromatic Star
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Repeal
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Burning Wish
1 Meditate
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Infernal Tutor

Sideboard:
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Simplify
SB: 1 Echoing Ruin
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Unmask
SB: 1 Night's Whisper
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Regrowth
SB: 1 Firebolt
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Pyroclasm

SI by emidln

Maindeck:
4 Land Grant
2 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher

Sideboard:
4 Tomb of Urami
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Avatar of Discord
3 Naturalize

The Epic Storm (TES) by wastedlife

Maindeck:
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Cabal Pit
1 Forbidden Orchard
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Trinket Mage
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Plunge into Darkness
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Rite of Flame
3 Seething Song
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard:
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Recoup
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 1 Cleanfall
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Defense Grid

emidln
11-23-2006, 08:30 PM
What is the best way to respond to:

Meddling Mage

So far, I believe it is to play more threats. I have been following a philosophy of "win asap" to the extent of optimizing for kills in the early turns. To back this up, I play two win conditions in SI: Tendrils of Agony and Goblin Charbelcher. A single Meddling Mage doesn't phase me since I have a backup plan.


Tormod's Crypt

Tormod's Crypt only has two uses against SI. The first is to turn off Threshold for Cabal Ritual. The other is to disallow the 2x IGG. SI is actually not designed around IGG, instead attempting to gain most of its power from draw4s and tutors. As such, it is not particularly affected by IGG. In fact, IGG is normally one of the first things to get boarded out as it lets me create card advantage by letting my opponent side in dead Tormod's Crypts.

I believe the best way to counteract crypt is to not rely on the graveyard. I think that my build of SI reflects this sentiment. The way I picked was a combinations of tutors and card draw.


Wasteland

Wasteland isn't much of a problem for SI. SI was designed to go off with a single mana source (and plays only 14 maindeck, enough to draw 1 in my opening hand consistently), and as such, treats its Bayous as Lotus Petals 5 and 6. This, by extension, turns Land Grant into Lotus Petals 7, 8, 9, and 10. The general philosophy is to hold land until absolutely necessary as they are one-use only.


Basic land destruction (Sinkhole, Vindicate, Ghost Quarter)

The Wasteland theory for SI applies here too. Additionally, I can try to "race" most Land Destruction with pure speed. Combined with not playing land until I go off, this has proven an effective strategy.


Cheap Discard (Duress/Cabal Therapy)

Due to the rogue-ish qualities of my deck, as well as the multiple avenues of comboing, Therapy has not been particularly effective against me. Duress, on the other hand, can be crippling when I'm on the draw. Most hands contain a key spell that can significantly slow me down if taken. Thankfully, this spell is not always obvious at first glance. Also, a significant percentage of the time (I've found this to be around 30% of the time), I have enough redundancy to survive a single Duress.

Duress followed by Hymn to Tourach is hard to beat. I think that draw4s and IGG allow me some lattitude in avoiding discard, but beating more than 3 discard spells involves a certain amount of luck in topdecking the right mix of business, mana sources, and rituals. I think that with proper deck construction this is very possible. I would lead you to SI for an example of this with Draw4s being very important.


Countermagic (FoW, Daze, Counterspell)

My answers here are Cabal Therapy and speed. If I lack the Cabal Therapy, I hope my significant turn 1 goldfish matches well against my opponent's 40% of having Force of Will. Matches including FoW and Daze generally leave me sideboarding into the "man plan", a transformational sideboard designed to beat aggro-control strategies. This has been found to be effective in game 2, but game 3, if needed, is an intricate mix of mind games with both me and my opponent guessing what my deck will be.

I have not had good results with Xantid Swarm. Additionally, Defense Grid costs too much mana to use in my deck. As reflected in SI's redundant threats in draw4s and tutors, my feeling is the best plan of counterattack is to play multiple threats in an attempt to use my opponent's countermagic as storm to kill them.


Orim's Chant/Abeyance

My only outs to Orim's Chant and Abeyance are Cabal Therapies, Speed, and the periodic ability to combo multiple turns in a row through draw4s. Much of the strategy to avoid counterspells applies here for SI. I attempt to go off quickly to race the Orim's Chant and take Abeyance out of consideration if I don't have a Therapy.

Outside of minimal protection like Duress, Therapy, our own Chants, or something like Xantid Swarm, avoiding Orim's Chant is difficult. In my mind, the best way to minimize the chances that they can chant in response to a tutor, draw spell, or something like IGG is to increase the speed of my deck as much as possible, effectively allowing my opponent 7 cards to find Chant or lose.


Pyrostatic Pillar/Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory

General comments about speed aside (I race it since it costs 2 mana), I have a maindeck out in Goblin Charbelcher since it requires fewer spells, as well as sideboard options of Naturalize and/or transforming into a Sui-black deck. Additionally, Cabal Therapy is a general purpose out.

noobslayer
11-23-2006, 08:31 PM
While the deck isn't tendrils based it is still fast combo. I know there was a thread for this some tiem ago, but I believe it got deleted or something. This was the list I was running before I stopped testing it. It can be confusing and luck-based to get the set-up, but after that it usually auto pilots to a very large Stroke of Genius.

I believe the name of the deck was:

Hard Boiled Awsome Sauce

// Lands
4 [IN] Archaeological Dig
4 [MI] Crystal Vein
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall

// Spells
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [EX] Reclaim
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Second Sunrise
2 [OD] Mossfire Egg
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [IN] Chromatic Sphere
4 [FD] Conjurer's Bauble
4 [OD] Sungrass Egg
4 [OD] Skycloud Egg
1 [VI] Summer Bloom
1 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [EX] Reclaim
SB: 1 [JU] Krosan Reclamation
SB: 1 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [SC] Stifle
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River

Whit3 Ghost
11-23-2006, 09:07 PM
Meddling Mage
Race it, Cabal Pit, Grapeshot, Wipe Away, Empty the Warrens and other alt wins.


Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle, Artifact D prior to comboing out, Split Second cards


Wasteland
One waste shouldn't be a big deal, but use the tempo to your advantage and try to combo out on your next turn before they can get another land drop.


Basic land destruction (Sinkhole, Vindicate, Ghost Quarter)
If that's the only form of disruption, try to set up a hand that you could win with one land.


Cheap Discard (Duress/Cabal Therapy)
Pray. Hope they don't have a clock, and try to set up your win.



Countermagic (FoW, Daze, Counterspell)
Dont't be dumb and overextend. Don't rely on only IGG, try to grab multiple tutors/wishes/ect. Remember, your win conditions are uncounterable, its the set up cards they're worrying about.
Also, run Xantid Swarm if possible


Orim's Chant/Abeyance
Duress/Therapy, watch for it. You should have won game 1 against most decks packing it, so just try to race it or build up hands that can win through it.


Pyrostatic Pillar
SS Cards, Multiple Tendrils, destruction, bounce, Empty the Warrens(6 mana for a 3 turn clock)


Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory
These, you should be able to race unless your opponent is packing acceleration. Blow them up or beat down with any creatures you may pack(Mages, random Elves and whatnot)

Bryant Cook
11-23-2006, 09:45 PM
Meddling Mage - The EPIC Storm has 4x Burning wish, Tendrils of Agony, Empty the warrens, Cabal Pit and Grapeshot to answer Meddling Mage. Having more threats in the MD allows you to shrug off Meddling Mage and act as if they weren't there.

Tormod's Crypt- The best way to deal with Tormod's Crypt is to way around it, since TES doesn't rely on the Graveyard. You can always use Empty the Warrens if you can't generate enough storm. You also have Diminishing Returns to up storm count or just combo out with tutors until you've reached 10.

Land Destruction- The EPIC Storm shrugs off land destruction, after all the deck plays 15 ritual effects, 12 artifact mana and 10 lands one wasteland won't kill you. All you need is one maybe two mana sources to go off with TES. Against decks with wasteland and you only have one land hand, often you should hold your land until it comes time to play it.

Hand disruption- Play your lands and artifact mana as fast as possible, and hold tutors. Cast tutors for Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns, if possible go aggro with a small Empty the Warrens.

Counterspells and White Protection(Chant/Abeyance)- You run Xantid Swarm and Cabal Therapy, try and use Cabal Therapy the turn you want to win. Also bait out counter magic with Trinket Mages and Tutors. Cast a Burning Wish with 0 Storm if need be. You do have Defense Grid post SB, against decks with counter magic I generally SB a Warrens and Try to win with men.

Pyrostatic Pillar- With The EPIC Storm you have 4 options.
Option a.) Win with Empty the Warrens.
Option b.) Burning Wish for Cleanfall
Option c.) Cast a smaller Tendrils then recurr it with Igg and cast it again.
Option d.) Burning wish for Tendrils, then Infernal Tendrils and cast 2 Small Tendrils.

Arcane Lab/Rule of Law- Win before they can cast it, Trinket Mage beats or Burning Wish for Cleanfall.

DeathwingZERO
11-23-2006, 10:33 PM
Personally, my issue is not with the ability to go against any combination or specific incidents of hate, but the overall effectiveness of the deck. I'd like to see first what a deck is fully capable of with the goldfish, then see what hate it worries about most second.

What are the numbers for consistent (60% minimum occurence) turn kills? I know that personally, IGGy runs about a 70% turn 3 kill, with like a 25% turn 2 and a 5% turn 1, give or take 5% for turns 1 and 2 (20/10 at best), at least for my build. I haven't bothered doing much research on the later revisions past the maindeck Leylines, so my build is probably not 100% current.

I'm mainly curious to see what TES, Contract Tendrils and Veggie Tendrils are showing for consistency and speed, as I'm quite unfamiliar with any of those as of now.

emidln
11-23-2006, 10:49 PM
Personally, my issue is not with the ability to go against any combination or specific incidents of hate, but the overall effectiveness of the deck. I'd like to see first what a deck is fully capable of with the goldfish, then see what hate it worries about most second.

What are the numbers for consistent (60% minimum occurence) turn kills? I know that personally, IGGy runs about a 70% turn 3 kill, with like a 25% turn 2 and a 5% turn 1, give or take 5% for turns 1 and 2 (20/10 at best), at least for my build. I haven't bothered doing much research on the later revisions past the maindeck Leylines, so my build is probably not 100% current.

I'm mainly curious to see what TES, Contract Tendrils and Veggie Tendrils are showing for consistency and speed, as I'm quite unfamiliar with any of those as of now.

On the play, the build of Contract Tendrils with Therapy goldfishes about 60% of the time on turn 1. On the draw, it is up to 65-70%. The B/u version with fetchlands and Meditate and the B/g version with Diabolic Intent both goldfish around 70% of the time turn 1 on the play, and between 75-80% turn 1 on the draw. Of course, the tournament viability of the lists without Therapy is questionable. If you don't attempt a turn 1, your percentage goes up roughly 5-7% for each card you see until you hit turn 3/4, by which time, a hand properly mulled will always win or kill you after you draw half your deck and fail to find a tutor/tendrils/belcher (this happens like 4% of the time...it blows). I've found that about 40% of the time, failed combo attempts on turn 1 set up turn 2 kills. Likewise with turn 2 failures setting up turn 3 kills. About 70% of the time, a failed turn 1 attempt will result in a turn 3/4 kill. Usually this is the worst case scenario because past that you are likely dead, although the generally high power level of SI allows you to recover when an opponent is tapped out or has managed to rid you of your hand. SI has the fastest goldfishes of any legacy-legal deck I'm aware of. I would challenge that it is more consistent at turn 1'ing than Vintage SX.

The only time SI is down and out for the count is when at 0 life or facing 3sphere/2sphere + smokestack/wasteland lock. The ability to draw 4 cards for 2-3 cards (possibly leaving mana left over) in a deck that is all mana and draw is really good, and allows you to somewhat recover from bad situations.

Phantom Ogre
11-24-2006, 01:56 AM
@noobslayer: I believe that thread was started in response to my thread over on the WotC site. Here's my current list:

Hardboiled Awesome Sauce

Maindeck: 60

Lands: 13

Archaeological Dig x 4
Cephalid Coliseum x 2
City of Traitors x 3
Crystal Vein x 4

Mana Acceleration: 11

Lion’s Eye Diamond x 3
Lotus Petal x 4
Tinder Wall x 4

Engine: 13

Crop Rotation x 1
Mystical Tutor x 4
Reclaim x 4
Second Sunrise x 4

Fuel: 20

Chromatic Sphere x 4
Cromatic Star x 4
Conjurer’s Bauble x 4
Skycloud Egg x 4
Sungrass Egg x 4

Protection: 3

Angel’s Grace x 1
Chain of Vapor x 1
Abeyance x 1

Sideboard: 15

Alternate Win Condition: 1

Decree of Justice x 1

Lands: 1

Cephalid Coliseum x 1

Protection: 13

Angel’s Grace x 2
Phyrexian Furnace x 4
Abeyance x 2
Echoing Truth x 3
Gaea’s Blessing x 1
Rushing River x 1

Bryant Cook
11-24-2006, 01:19 PM
I'm not really sure on how other people get there percentages, but out of 20 games these were my results for The EPIC Storm.
Turn 1 Combo Out: 6 Games
Turn 2 Combo Out: 9 Games
Turn 3 Combo Out: 5 Games
I wrote Combo Out because of Empty the Warrens changes things since you aren’t truly killing that turn. Three of the turn 1 combo's were Empty the Warrens, 4 of the turn 2 combo's were Empty the Warrens and there was 0 Warren beats on turn 3. The addition of Empty the Warrens to any combo deck will increase its turn ratio because it allows you to essentially win on turn 1 with a storm of 5.

outsideangel
11-24-2006, 02:40 PM
I'm not really sure on how other people get there percentages, but out of 20 games these were my results for The EPIC Storm.
Turn 1 Combo Out: 6 Games
Turn 2 Combo Out: 9 Games
Turn 3 Combo Out: 5 Games
I wrote Combo Out because of Empty the Warrens changes things since you aren’t truly killing that turn. Three of the turn 1 combo's were Empty the Warrens, 4 of the turn 2 combo's were Empty the Warrens and there was 0 Warren beats on turn 3. The addition of Empty the Warrens to any combo deck will increase its turn ratio because it allows you to essentially win on turn 1 with a storm of 5.

That's assuming they don't rip something like Pyroclasm, Earthquake @ 1, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, or even Goblin Sharpshooter, Starstorm @ 1, ect.

I really dislike both having to wait a turn to win, and having to just throw a bunch of very vulnerable critters out there and rely on them surviving.

I mean, winning with such a low storm is nice, but it's an awfully risky gameplan to go into blind. I feel like, if getting a high storm count is an issue, then the focus should be on making combo more consistent, rather than bringing in sub-par win conditions as a crutch to the greater weakness of the deck.

I really like it as a backup win condition in case you can't hit a high storm count, but I'd be wary of making the focus of the deck winning with creatures in a format with so many ways to stop that.

Bryant Cook
11-24-2006, 02:55 PM
That's assuming they don't rip something like Pyroclasm, Earthquake @ 1, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, or even Goblin Sharpshooter, Starstorm @ 1, ect.

I really dislike both having to wait a turn to win, and having to just throw a bunch of very vulnerable critters out there and rely on them surviving.

I mean, winning with such a low storm is nice, but it's an awfully risky gameplan to go into blind. I feel like, if getting a high storm count is an issue, then the focus should be on making combo more consistent, rather than bringing in sub-par win conditions as a crutch to the greater weakness of the deck.

I really like it as a backup win condition in case you can't hit a high storm count, but I'd be wary of making the focus of the deck winning with creatures in a format with so many ways to stop that.

Making 12-2X goblins on Turn 1 I don't see Sharpshooter/Starstorm being very relevant when they can't cast it and who the hell plays Earthquake? Propaganda/Ghostly Prison please, if the deck is playing those cards their deck is full of removal and I'll have time to rebuild. I don't think you understand Empty the Warrens it allows easy wins, why not make 12 dudes turn 1 against Threshold? They don't have an answer. The deck's focus was never to win with 1/1 men, but it can. If I know my opponent plays mass removal or alot of removal in general I wouldn't win with Warrens, I'd sit back and win with Tendrils of Agony or Grapeshot. The deck isn't unstable, stability has nothing to do with winning with Empty the Warrens. Empty the Warrens is an uncounterable threat that alot of top decks in the format can't deal with. Alot of the answers to Empty the Warrens you listed are not seen in widely played decks; theres only two cards that are widely played that you listed, Pyroclasm is a sideboard card and won't be seen game 1 and Sharpshooter and alot of Goblin list's cut him so I don't know where you are going with this.

AnwarA101
11-24-2006, 03:20 PM
Iggy Pop is my answer. It has proven itself in larger tournaments. That isn't to say one of these other decks might do that but I am doubtful. The other Tendrils based decks seem too "random" by this I mean that they have to storm up without a real engine. Playing Night's Whisper or Infernal Contract into the win seems way too unstable. These decks seem to lack a clear path to victory. They have to draw into what they need. Iggy Pop doesn't have this problem. It setups a win and then it actually wins. It doesn't attempt to "go off". Sure it loses to Force of Will on its IGG but doesn't countering an Infernal Contract do that just as well?

outsideangel
11-24-2006, 03:53 PM
Making 12-2X goblins on Turn 1 I don't see Sharpshooter/Starstorm being very relevant when they can't cast it and who the hell plays Earthquake? Propaganda/Ghostly Prison please, if the deck is playing those cards their deck is full of removal and I'll have time to rebuild. I don't think you understand Empty the Warrens it allows easy wins, why not make 12 dudes turn 1 against Threshold? They don't have an answer. The deck's focus was never to win with 1/1 men, but it can. If I know my opponent plays mass removal or alot of removal in general I wouldn't win with Warrens, I'd sit back and win with Tendrils of Agony or Grapeshot. The deck isn't unstable, stability has nothing to do with winning with Empty the Warrens. Empty the Warrens is an uncounterable threat that alot of top decks in the format can't deal with. Alot of the answers to Empty the Warrens you listed are not seen in widely played decks; theres only two cards that are widely played that you listed, Pyroclasm is a sideboard card and won't be seen game 1 and Sharpshooter and alot of Goblin list's cut him so I don't know where you are going with this.


"Played in the 'top 3' decks" and "widely played" are very different things in Legacy. Sure, if the only things you're going to play all day are Goblins, Gro, and Solidarity, then winning with a token swarm is fine. But there's a lot of randomness in this format, and you have to take that into consideration. That randomness is the reason why decks like Angel Stax aren't as competative as they could be, why Solidarity is probably better than Spring Tide, and why win conditions like Tendrils are better than Empty the Warrens.

Speaking of Spring Tide, why isn't it on this list? Solidarity's little brother should certainly be included in a discussion of fast combo decks. It wins a little bit later than, say, TES (Spring Tide wins generally turn 3) but is very, very reliable.

Bryant Cook
11-24-2006, 08:27 PM
"Played in the 'top 3' decks" and "widely played" are very different things in Legacy. Sure, if the only things you're going to play all day are Goblins, Gro, and Solidarity, then winning with a token swarm is fine. But there's a lot of randomness in this format, and you have to take that into consideration. That randomness is the reason why decks like Angel Stax aren't as competative as they could be, why Solidarity is probably better than Spring Tide, and why win conditions like Tendrils are better than Empty the Warrens.

Speaking of Spring Tide, why isn't it on this list? Solidarity's little brother should certainly be included in a discussion of fast combo decks. It wins a little bit later than, say, TES (Spring Tide wins generally turn 3) but is very, very reliable.

I'm aware that there are other decks in the format than "The top 3" but large events often consist of "The Top 3" in large quantities. Storm Combo generally beats randomness anyways, Empty the Warrens isn't the main kill and I don't think you understand that but it is very optimal and a Tendrils with a different name. I'm also aware that Tendrils is better than Empty the Warrens but as another option Empty the Warrens is the best second option we(as a Format) have.

DeathwingZERO
11-24-2006, 09:34 PM
Let's not worry about how good or bad Empty the Warrens is as a win condition. Basically, if that is considered the win condition, take into effect how many of them you made after the storm of x, play through the remaining number of turns it'd take you to swing, and see if you run through another storm count in the meantime.

I believe the point of what Outside was originally saying is that Empty isn't a guaranteed win, so play through the goldfish turns as if they have to put the opponent to 0 life.

I don't care at all about (what if situation x arises), because that once again doesn't give us any insight whatsoever into how the deck plays WITHOUT disruption involved.

Oh and Wasted, our %s are basically a rough estimate of x number of games, and how many times you won by that timeframe. Like my numbers for IGGy, roughly 70% of the games I won on my third turn, undisrupted, 20-25% on turn 2, and 5-10 on turn 1.

I would have to say my favorite thing about IGGy.....0% fizzle ratio. I love not having to deal with writing down games where I can get a storm of 15+ and go "Oops, didn't draw what I needed, I lose". Damn you Solidarity....

EDIT: Oh, and I would second Spring Tide being on the list. After hearing a few things about recent updates versions of the "sorcery-speed Solidarity" got, I'm very interested in seeing the numbers for it/them.

emidln
11-24-2006, 10:52 PM
I would have to say my favorite thing about IGGy.....0% fizzle ratio. I love not having to deal with writing down games where I can get a storm of 15+ and go "Oops, didn't draw what I needed, I lose". Damn you Solidarity....


This isn't strictly true. When under extreme duress from decks like UbaStax or faster combo decks, Iggy Pop can be forced into situations requiring Iggy Pop to go off using Brainstorm in a fashion similar to Contract Tendrils. Iggy Pop is poorly equipped to do this. The only matches I've observed this happening is versus Contract Tendrils and 2-Land Belcher when both had Lethal Belchers on the table and UbaStax when Smokestack was threatening to end the game.

DeathwingZERO
11-24-2006, 11:57 PM
Has UbaStax even been a competitively viable deck in this format? I haven't even seen the thing put up good numbers in Vintage in months, and their manabase and tutor effects are way more stable.

I will agree that under duress the deck will risk fizzling, but unlike Solidarity, Spring Tide, Nausea, etc......it doesn't "draw" into a win, it sets itself up for a strictly straightforward combo.

In my opinion, the ability to attempt a draw win makes the deck even more adapted than the rest of the Storm decks at the moment, because it's backup is the same gameplan most the other decks use, even if it's much poorer. I've still considered running Meditates as a sideboard option, just for times when I want to side out IGG.

Daze
11-26-2006, 12:47 PM
As for the Pillar, 9 spells + Tendrils only make 18 damage, and only if all those spells did costs 3 or less (means not including Iggies). Since most decks which side Pillar are relying on spells with cc 3 or less (goblins, burn, ...), you often can bring them to low life and then wait to find the final Wish/Tutor/Grapeshot etc; this means Pillar is not really a problem (if they don't get it in multiples...).

emidln
11-26-2006, 09:35 PM
Has UbaStax even been a competitively viable deck in this format? I haven't even seen the thing put up good numbers in Vintage in months, and their manabase and tutor effects are way more stable.

Well, I went X-2 in the Legacy Champs prelims and X-2 in Legacy Champs with it. It was definitely more viable than a number a decks, and that was before I seriously looked into the Goblins matchup, which has slightly improved. I haven't been able to take it to any major tournaments like SCG since then since SCG events are in the middle of BFE^WVirginia. The testing that I and others have done with the deck points to viability but I have no major results to back it up. It doesn't help that the 3 UbaStax players live in Iowa, Southern Illinois, and France.

DeathwingZERO
11-26-2006, 10:47 PM
It is true that viability of a deck is pretty much questioned unless every place plays it, since even in the US we can't get good standing tournaments on a regular basis that aren't on the East Coast or in the middle of BF Nowhere.

And as for Pyrostatic, nearly all decks have an answer to it without really trying, especially when you start looking at decks like Solidarity and IGGy, where half of the combo is 3 or more casting cost anyways. As stated before, it's really only a problem if you see burn or Goblins, things that already have you on a fast clock or less than 20 life, and Goblins rarely packs it anymore, as it's not really any faster than the deck is anyways.

blarknob
11-27-2006, 12:12 PM
This isn't strictly true. When under extreme duress from decks like UbaStax or faster combo decks, Iggy Pop can be forced into situations requiring Iggy Pop to go off using Brainstorm in a fashion similar to Contract Tendrils. Iggy Pop is poorly equipped to do this. The only matches I've observed this happening is versus Contract Tendrils and 2-Land Belcher when both had Lethal Belchers on the table and UbaStax when Smokestack was threatening to end the game.

quite right, I have had to make this kind of play in a few situations before. Its usually when you are forced to try to combo when you haven't drawn into a tutor.

I played a game last week against goblins where after a first turn brainstorm I had a hand that consisted of two IGG and a ton of mana. My opponent had pulled the first turn lackey and was indicating that he was going to kill me on turn three. I played out all my mana recurred brainstorm twice cracking a fetch in between them and eventually pulled into an infernal for the win. So when hard pressed iggy can go into brainstorm recursion desperation mode but it doesn't happen often because of the consistency of the deck.

iOWN
11-27-2006, 03:44 PM
What do people think of Fork in Tendrils? I've been using it in a 5c Tendrils deck pretty much identical to TES but lacking the creatures; since it can avoid counters (assuming it is either a later combo off and you have enough resources, or that you resolved a mana source like Seething Song without it being countered), cheaply doubles draw fours, and becomes a second IGG (and I realized from Gearhart's strategy for Solidarity vs IGGy Pop that you can get an infinite storm count and then 10-20 mana with IGG + Fork with a Seething Song).

// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
1 [MI] Infernal Contract
2 [TE] Meditate
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
3 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [R] Fork

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Recoup
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 1 [R] Regrowth

I was happy with TES, since it is incredibly consistent and a blast to play, but the creatures in it were just slowing the combo down and were clunky to use so I cut them. Well, Priest (with Helm) and Trinket Mage didn't work, but I think Xantid Swarm could fit into the sideboard.

Other different things:

*3x Ill Gotten Gains allows you to make the chain, give you an easy out if your are likely to fizzle therefor increasing consistency, and also can ensure a win off of LED/Infernal Tutor.

*Intuition is a good tutor, and when it is not used can just sit on a Moxen. It can fetch LED, LED, LED which gives you amazing accel and colorfix if you have either an Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, or IGG in your hand. It also can go for three Rites, although I never find myself doing that, or get the 3x IGG for a chain and then reuse Intuition to fetch tutors and Tendrils for the win. However I'm finding myself using this a little less, and might either cut it down a little more or just drop it altogether.

*Meditate is SO good. I may even go up to three. It is a strong turn one play off of Rite of Flame or Ritual, and is a draw4 without so much color commitment.

*1x Brain Freeze is good to board in as an alt. win since it gets around Life combo (if you ever come against it...), and recquires less of a storm count than Grapeshot. Plus, since you are comboing off on your turn unlike Solidarity, they will die anyways as long as they don't have something that skips their draw step. The only downside is that it isn't an instant kill, so if you are flooded with mana or something, you have a small chance of killing yourself.

I've been pretty satisfied with the testing results this is giving me, and hope to hear what wastedlife thinks about it.

Bryant Cook
11-27-2006, 08:21 PM
What do people think of Fork in Tendrils? I've been using it in a 5c Tendrils deck pretty much identical to TES but lacking the creatures; since it can avoid counters (assuming it is either a later combo off and you have enough resources, or that you resolved a mana source like Seething Song without it being countered), cheaply doubles draw fours, and becomes a second IGG (and I realized from Gearhart's strategy for Solidarity vs IGGy Pop that you can get an infinite storm count and then 10-20 mana with IGG + Fork with a Seething Song).

// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
1 [MI] Infernal Contract
2 [TE] Meditate
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
3 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [R] Fork

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Recoup
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 1 [R] Regrowth

I was happy with TES, since it is incredibly consistent and a blast to play, but the creatures in it were just slowing the combo down and were clunky to use so I cut them. Well, Priest (with Helm) and Trinket Mage didn't work, but I think Xantid Swarm could fit into the sideboard.

Other different things:

*3x Ill Gotten Gains allows you to make the chain, give you an easy out if your are likely to fizzle therefor increasing consistency, and also can ensure a win off of LED/Infernal Tutor.

*Intuition is a good tutor, and when it is not used can just sit on a Moxen. It can fetch LED, LED, LED which gives you amazing accel and colorfix if you have either an Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, or IGG in your hand. It also can go for three Rites, although I never find myself doing that, or get the 3x IGG for a chain and then reuse Intuition to fetch tutors and Tendrils for the win. However I'm finding myself using this a little less, and might either cut it down a little more or just drop it altogether.

*Meditate is SO good. I may even go up to three. It is a strong turn one play off of Rite of Flame or Ritual, and is a draw4 without so much color commitment.

*1x Brain Freeze is good to board in as an alt. win since it gets around Life combo (if you ever come against it...), and recquires less of a storm count than Grapeshot. Plus, since you are comboing off on your turn unlike Solidarity, they will die anyways as long as they don't have something that skips their draw step. The only downside is that it isn't an instant kill, so if you are flooded with mana or something, you have a small chance of killing yourself.

I've been pretty satisfied with the testing results this is giving me, and hope to hear what wastedlife thinks about it.

I too tested Fork when I first started playing with red rituals. The problem with it is that Fork is a very narrow card. Especially in a deck that doesn't often have alot of RR floating. I know both versions run Rite of Flame and Seething Song but how often will you have both RR and Fork consistantly? I could mayeb see it asd a 1 of but then it's kind-of pointless.

As for the Solidarity idea that's why I origionally started playing Fork but the combo is a win-more. You'll need 3 pieces which means you tutored for them and more than likely you'll be able to win before the combo becomes relevent.

I believe that the creatures are a nessesary evil, without Xantid Swarm you just straight out lose to control. Priest of Gix was cut awhile ago, and Trinket Mage is just amazing. You claim they're slow and clunky but they cost the same as intuition and your playing those. I'm glad to see you liked TES.

I believe more than 1 MD Ill-Gotten Gains is a mistake because you only need one to win maybe two at the most. Chaining Igg's often gives you a storm count of higher than what you need and makes you more graveyard reliant. So, then cards like Tormod's crypt become relevant.

Meditate over Plunge is something to consider, I love Plunge into Darkness because of it's ability to set-up or go deep. I'll test Meditate over Plunge but I'd never cut Returns it's what makes the deck not need the graveyard at all.

iOWN
11-27-2006, 08:55 PM
I too tested Fork when I first started playing with red rituals. The problem with it is that Fork is a very narrow card. Especially in a deck that doesn't often have alot of RR floating. I know both versions run Rite of Flame and Seething Song but how often will you have both RR and Fork consistantly? I could mayeb see it asd a 1 of but then it's kind-of pointless.

As for the Solidarity idea that's why I origionally started playing Fork but the combo is a win-more. You'll need 3 pieces which means you tutored for them and more than likely you'll be able to win before the combo becomes relevent.

I believe that the creatures are a nessesary evil, without Xantid Swarm you just straight out lose to control. Priest of Gix was cut awhile ago, and Trinket Mage is just amazing. You claim they're slow and clunky but they cost the same as intuition and your playing those. I'm glad to see you liked TES.

I believe more than 1 MD Ill-Gotten Gains is a mistake because you only need one to win maybe two at the most. Chaining Igg's often gives you a storm count of higher than what you need and makes you more graveyard reliant. So, then cards like Tormod's crypt become relevant.

Meditate over Plunge is something to consider, I love Plunge into Darkness because of it's ability to set-up or go deep. I'll test Meditate over Plunge but I'd never cut Returns it's what makes the deck not need the graveyard at all.


I agree that Fork is kind of narrow, but I've actually pulled a double Meditate off maybe 1-3 times every 10 games. It can be kind of hard to cast, but you can usually do it with a hand with Ritual and Rite, or just Seething Song (it's such a powerful early combo card that I run four). Maybe going down to two or three with the excess Forks in the board, for the Gro and High Tide match-ups?

You're right that the (hard to set-up) combo doesn't usually happen, but the way I filtered through choices was looking at card versatility and Fork just can randomly save you in several situations.

I think 3 IGG is necessary when running Intuition, but also it increases your chance of starting with one and being able to combo turn one. Another thing to note is that an IGG can turn into mana accel when you happen to get multiples of LED (or Intuition them out). That may kind of seem circular, but I believe it does help out a little.

Do the IGGs really make you rely on your yard? I mean, if they have something like Crypt out you can either combo without IGG (there is plenty of other ways to rack up your storm) or IGG and then Fork it in response to the Crypt.

I definitely am going to reconsider the Xantid Swarms, but the reason I said in the SB was because they have to be one of the worst things to find in a draw4. Other than that they play great, especially vs Solidarity.
Though, the Trinket Mages are a little different. Intuition can always do the same as Trinkets, and then some. Triple LED is better than a single one to hand, and it plays the role of tutor in an IGG loop. I just never find him actually pushing damage through to my opponent. The way I chose Fork is the same way I chose Intuition; Intuition and Trinket Mage are equally 'slow and clunky', but Intuition is a much wider card -- three times more versatile to be exact. I just don't see a reason to be playing Trinket Mage over it.

And I agree: Returns are definitely one of the most powerful cards in the deck. :)

Bane of the Living
11-27-2006, 08:59 PM
On the play, the build of Contract Tendrils with Therapy goldfishes about 60% of the time on turn 1. On the draw, it is up to 65-70%. The B/u version with fetchlands and Meditate and the B/g version with Diabolic Intent both goldfish around 70% of the time turn 1 on the play, and between 75-80% turn 1 on the draw.

That seems like some extra fresh simmering dog shit if you ask me. I'll sit down with this deck TONIGHT and goldfish 10 games. I would be shocked if 5 of them gave me a turn one win. If I get 7 out of 10 turn one wins Ill never pick up any deck but this one. Ever. Im not trying to knock you emidln, your a good deck builder, but Im very very skeptical that your deck gets a 70% win ratio turn one on the play.

Im surprised you didnt mention your sideboard at all when mentioning the plan to tackle hate cards. Your switch into mono black turbo beat down is interesting. When do you switch the the man plan?

Id also suggest you add Golden Grahams to your list of combo discussion. Its efficient, and comes very equiped with answers to hate. Along with Solidarity and Iggy Pop it's the only other deck to make any real standings in the world of legacy. How can we let that go?

iOWN
11-27-2006, 09:19 PM
Actually, that isn't really a lie. It has amazing goldfishes, and can win turn one A LOT. I've already tested it quite a bit, and it is definitely one of the fastest decks in the format (although I don't know if the percentage is 100% true, but it can't be too far off).

SI has so much accel that it's hard not to get a turn 1 IGG or Draw4 (or even Infernal into Charbelcher), and has very consistent hands.

Bane of the Living
11-27-2006, 09:45 PM
Actually, that isn't really a lie. It has amazing goldfishes, and can win turn one A LOT. I've already tested it quite a bit, and it is definitely one of the fastest decks in the format (although I don't know if the percentage is 100% true, but it can't be too far off).

It has so much accel that it's hard not to get a turn 1 IGG or Draw4 (or even Infernal into Charbelcher), and has very consistent hands.

I can certainly see the speed that the deck offers in rituals, draw 4's, and mono colored action packed plan. Yet part of me knows the deck will fumble on a crucial draw 4, leaving you with a large pointless storm count and shitty hand. I see the deck fizzling on alot of turn one attempts. What kind of hand does the deck try to go off turn one with? How much free mana? How much card draw?

ON IGGY
Iggy does have not only the aforementioned 'un-fizzling' combo but I've found it extremely flexible when facing absurd hand destruction. Mystical Tutor into Iggy is not a joke, it is appauling. I found myself at 1-5 life with almost nothing in my grip where Mystical Tutor was the craziest mise in the world. No matter how many alternative wins, counterspell baiters, ld and graveyard nihilistic you are, hand disruption is combo's biggest issue. Iggy handles the discard issue unchallenged while the rest of the decks put their tail between their legs.
@Deathwing
Meditates in Iggy's board is a really good idea, I think Ill try that out.

ON PILLAR
Even though most of you are writing this off dont forget Pillar is never the only card in play. If it is your in good shape, but the decks that play it also contain a very fast clock and usually some backup disruption in the form of CotV or REB.

Bryant Cook
11-27-2006, 10:42 PM
Do the IGGs really make you rely on your yard? I mean, if they have something like Crypt out you can either combo without IGG (there is plenty of other ways to rack up your storm) or IGG and then Fork it in response to the Crypt.
I definitely am going to reconsider the Xantid Swarms, but the reason I said in the SB was because they have to be one of the worst things to find in a draw4. Other than that they play great, especially vs Solidarity.
Though, the Trinket Mages are a little different. Intuition can always do the same as Trinkets, and then some. Triple LED is better than a single one to hand, and it plays the role of tutor in an IGG loop. I just never find him actually pushing damage through to my opponent. The way I chose Fork is the same way I chose Intuition; Intuition and Trinket Mage are equally 'slow and clunky', but Intuition is a much wider card -- three times more versatile to be exact. I just don't see a reason to be playing Trinket Mage over it.


The fork plan means you have the combo which is pretty Irrelvant at that point, no? And yes, playing more IGG's makes you more graveyard reliant because in order to play them you'll be using intuition. What does TES not lose to? Graveyard hate. If you make those changes its a hybrid of Iggy Pop and TES which in my opinion seems weaker than one or the other. Since the format is full of graveyard hate I'll pass.

I'm glad to see you're reconsidering Xantid Swarm, you won't regret it.

I for one don't want to be even the slightest bit reliant on my graveyard, because when you use the graveyard more than need be you'll see hate for it and when you actually NEED your graveyard you'll be cut off(By hate). When it comes down to it in my opinion is comes down to how comfortable are you losing to graveyard hate. I for one love Mage and won't cut it until a better card comes out.

On Draw 4's they are generally unreliable when it comes to TES, because at all times TES want's specific cards and draw 4's hardly deliver.

EDIT:: To support Intuiton you would have to add more Ill-Gotten Gains which takes up slots in the deck. Intuition makes you rely on Ill-Gotten Gains and when you rely on Ill-Gotten Gains to make Intuition good. You are relying on your graveyard in a format full of grave hate for Threshold. This just isn't logical to me.

Jankwolf
11-30-2006, 01:37 AM
I dont know if you all have adressed this or not...But what does discard do for combo? I'm talking Duess/Therepy/hymn and maybe pox??
All of those would seem to pose a problem for any combo player...

Mystical Storm
11-30-2006, 02:10 AM
has anyone mentioned or thought of Doomsday as a fast combo option? There are some very efficient stacks out there that haven't quite made it to the mainstream, but seem to be primed to make some sort of dent in the metagame.



I dont know if you all have adressed this or not...But what does discard do for combo? I'm talking Duess/Therepy/hymn and maybe pox??
All of those would seem to pose a problem for any combo player...

if it hasn't already been discussed, discard kills combo, but there are solutions. Combo decks that run black can cast a discard spell first, thus beating the other player to it. Blue decks run Daze or Force for the early counter. And since discard runs at sorcery speed, White can get in Orim's Chant or Abeyance. And most competitive combo decks can be tuned to go off turn two or even turn one (such as Doomsday) with a good hand, so the last option is a simple race: go off before disruption hits.

Bane of the Living
12-02-2006, 11:33 AM
has anyone mentioned or thought of Doomsday as a fast combo option? There are some very efficient stacks out there that haven't quite made it to the mainstream, but seem to be primed to make some sort of dent in the metagame.




if it hasn't already been discussed, discard kills combo, but there are solutions. Combo decks that run black can cast a discard spell first, thus beating the other player to it. Blue decks run Daze or Force for the early counter. And since discard runs at sorcery speed, White can get in Orim's Chant or Abeyance. And most competitive combo decks can be tuned to go off turn two or even turn one (such as Doomsday) with a good hand, so the last option is a simple race: go off before disruption hits.


Brainfreeze > Doomsday

I've yet to see a successfull rehabilitation of that deck.

I adressed the discard issue as well. Mystical Tutor -> Ill-Gotten Gains

Mystical Storm
12-02-2006, 07:22 PM
Brainfreeze > Doomsday

I've yet to see a successfull rehabilitation of that deck.

I adressed the discard issue as well. Mystical Tutor -> Ill-Gotten Gains


do you mean to say that solidarity has an auto win against any current doomsday build? i've been working on that and trying to get a doomsday deck that can actually run with the top tier. it's such an alluring card, it basically reads "cast this, you win (provided you don't get countered during or discarded before, sorry)"

it's fragile, yes, but i think that i may have found a good working balance between discard, counters, and pure speed to make it viable, i just need to conduct thorough testing against the full suit of good decks, which i've yet to do, due primarly to the lack of legacy activity in my area (DC). perhaps i should create a doomsday thread for deck discussion. is it worth it, or is doomsday doomed to be a crazy casual card?

Lego
12-03-2006, 05:02 AM
My gut is to say that Doomsday will have a bad game against all three of the best decks in the format. Against Threshold, they can hold back a single counterspell, probably even a Daze, and wreck you. A resolved Meddling Mage is pretty much game. Against Solidarity, Doomsday + Brain Freeze = enough storm to deck you. Force is equally bad here. Goblins is interesting, because you'll often have to pass after casting Doomsday, at which point they win, because you've just put yourself at 5 life.

If you can't beat any of the top 3 decks, where do you go from there?

MattH
12-03-2006, 03:44 PM
Doomsday (as a deck) isn't basically any better than Buried Alive for Kiki-Karmic-Hussar. You get to combo without creatures but you pay a ton of life and are more vulnerable to other kinds of disruption, like Mage and Freeze and counters. And you're still basically reliant on finding and resolving a 4-of, which is one of the biggest problems with, say, Survival.

Any setup you an do with Doomsday (4 doom and 4 mystical, or 3/4 and 4 burning wish) you could do with Buried Alive, and BA even can use Intuition for #5-8, etc.

Bryant Cook
12-03-2006, 09:09 PM
What do people think as Doomsday as a Burning Wish target? I saw it in Roopey's SB and thought it was awfully techy.

MattH
12-03-2006, 10:31 PM
What do you actually DO with it though? Crack a Chromatic to get at the goods?

outsideangel
12-04-2006, 03:06 AM
has anyone mentioned or thought of Doomsday as a fast combo option? There are some very efficient stacks out there that haven't quite made it to the mainstream, but seem to be primed to make some sort of dent in the metagame.



Exactly what does the Doomsday decks look like, anyway? It's not something I'm familiar with, and I always love seeing a new combo deck.

It really seems like you'd better win the turn you cast Doomsday though. Going to half your life and having to sit around for a full turn on a library of 5 cards is probably the lose.

Essentially, how do you get to the goods you get with Doomsday and still have the mana to use them?

Mystical Storm
12-08-2006, 04:06 AM
here is a cut and paste from a doomsday discussion thread written by "sobek" a few months ago on the wizards forum:

Ive worked on Doomsday combo for a long, long time and I have a pretty much optimal list.


Legacy Doomsday Combo
Mana: 18
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
2x Chromatic Sphere

Tutors: 8
4x Lim-Dul’s Vault
4x Mystical Tutor

Combo: 9
4x Doomsday
2x Conjurer’s Bauble
1x Predict
1x Brain Freeze
1x Second Sunrise

Disruption: 7
3x Unmask
4x Duress

Land: 18
5x Island
5x Swamp
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta

Sideboard:15
1x Breakthrough
1x Shallow Grave
1x Sutured Ghoul
2x Krosan Cloudscraper
4x Chain of Vapor
6x?


The Sideboard has an alternate Doomsday stack that dosn't die to Pithing Needle, but does die to STP. Chain of Vapor makes Meddling Mage go away. The rest is up to you for your meta.

Dark Rit and Cabal Rit make it so you always have the correct ammount of mana to cast Doomsday. LED makes first and second turn wins possible. Lim-Dul's Vault sets up crazy turns, and Mystical Tutor finds you Doomsday/Rituals.

Chormatic Sphere fixes your colors and lets you win the turn you Doomsday if you have the mana and its in play. Conjurers Bauble does the same.

Unmask and Duress are your disruption and are generally good enough as you don't have to worry about many cards other than Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage and obviously FoW and kin.

You can generally Doomsday w/disruption turns 2-4 most of the time. The majority of your wins will be turn 3-4. If you are really concerned about giving them an upkeep before they are die, you can always run Tendrils instead of Brain Freeze, but it does make the total mana to combo out go from 2U to 2UB which can mean the difference between going off turn 2-3 and turn 3-4.

Turn 1 Doomsdays arn't unheard of with this deck and can happen fairly often, and even with Disruption. Likewise, turn 1 wins are more difficult, but can happen. Turn 2 wins happen a surprising ammount of the time.

Hide
12-21-2006, 06:46 AM
I am a follower of IGG because I believe that this deck has tons of potential in Legacy.... Just wondering (don't know if you guys cover this already... ) what about Chalice of the void and Trinisphere? How do these combo decks deal with it?

Tacosnape
12-22-2006, 10:36 PM
I am a follower of IGG because I believe that this deck has tons of potential in Legacy.... Just wondering (don't know if you guys cover this already... ) what about Chalice of the void and Trinisphere? How do these combo decks deal with it?

Iggy bounces them with Echoing Truth if it can. And if you're me and playing against Iggy, it ALWAYS gets the Echoing Truth when it needs it. Always. Every freaking time. Stupid Michael Bom..B...Wossname.

Solidarity Cunning Wishes for Rebuild (Or COV/Echoing if Rebuild isn't run) or just goes off around them if there's only one and not both.

Belcher tries to go off before they're on the board or plays Oxidize/Shattering Spree.

Gamekeeper Salvagers laughs madly when people stupidly Chalice for 1, Living Wishes for Orzhov Guildmage, plays it, then Salvager/LED's into an infinite life draining, and advances to the finals of their local tournament (Not that I know anything about this.) It Living Wishes for Viridian Shaman/Sex Monkey to kill a Trinisphere or a Chalice at 0, and boards in Deeds. (You are running Pernicious Deed and Orim's Chant in your sideboard, aren't you? Good boy.)

Most of the others just die.

Bryant Cook
12-22-2006, 11:16 PM
TES can win through Chalice. However Trinisphere not so much, for this you must either play alot of Dark Rituals into a threshed Cabal Ritual then either a Rite of Flame or Lotus petal into Warrens. Another option is Burning Wish-> SHattering Spree.

MattH
12-23-2006, 01:08 PM
Iggy bounces them with Echoing Truth if it can. Iggy...
Solidarity...
Belcher...
Gamekeeper Salvagers...
Most of the others just die.
What are these 'others' you speak of? You just named about every combo deck in the format.

Hide
12-31-2006, 05:45 AM
I still don't think I know how to pilot the deck (IGG-POP)to the fullest...

Questions:
How do you use Infernal Tutor/Mystical tutor to the fullest?

I can't seem to combo out on 2nd turn that often... mostly 3rd or 4th turn... Is it normal?

list other intuition targets other than 3x IGG?

Can you list some ways combo out without using intuition?

Also, TES players, if you are playing againest a control deck and they counter or mage naming burning wish... how do you recover from that?

More question to come...

Thanks in advance for the answers.. :)

Benie Bederios
12-31-2006, 08:53 AM
Hello,

It doesn't fit really in the this thread, but here it goes:

1. Infernal Tutor is used primary to tutor for a IGG after a Lion's Eye Diamond. But you can use it to find a second ritual, if you go for the perfect hand.

Mystical Tutor is used to get Intuition or a ritual. The best play is to use it after a brainstorm so that you can shuffle the bad cards away. Late game it can tutor for IGG so you can win the game.

2. There are alot of ways to win turn 1 or 2. Some of them aren't as obvious as other. Remember there are to different loops. The first one is with Intuition. The other one is with Double LED and a Infernal Tutor. Next to that there are some ways you can win without the loop. When you see your oppening hand, just start calculating how many damage you can do. This makes it easier to tutor for the right spells too.

3. Triple LED is one of the most obvious other Intuition targets. It makes comboing with Infernal Tutor possible. If you don't have enough mana you can wish for Dark Ritual/ Cabal Ritual/ Lotus Petal. Late game a Intuition can go in alot of variations, including a single IGG/Xantid Swarm/Tendrils. It makes it for your opponent very risky to choose the right card.

4. The most obvious is a hand of Swamp, Lotus Petal, Double LED and Infernal Tutor. Play the mana and Tutor for IGG. crack the LED's in response, creating six mana. IGG for double LED and Infernal Tutor and repeat. This is also possible with double Cabal Ritual or a combination. There are some other ways, but you must not stick to the loops. If you have a hand of a Infernal Tutor and mana, it's obvious you can win without the loop.

EDIT: check the IGG thread for more details.

To get back to the subject. I think the idea of a fast combo deck is flawed. There is no Wheel of Fortune or Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy. The fast combo decks are always based on a few cards. They can win without them, but is very hard. I think TES and IGG are the strongest, but I found Belcher still a strong deck. Sure Needle is a weak point, but they still have to get into play before you belcher for twenty.

Greeting

BB