[Deck] RWU Aggro Control - Any good?

[hagar852]

Here is a deck I played with making.. I saw someone with a deck similar to this today in the sense that they used Lightning Angels.

This is Primarily a control deck.


// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Plateau
4 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Lightning Angel
4 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
3 [5E] Portent
2 [IA] Counterspell
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix

Card Selections:


Removal:

The best removal in the game.. Swords, Lightning Helix, Bolt.

Control:

Force of Will - self explanitory
Daze - Not sure about this spot as a counter, but not terrible
Counterspell - as a 2 of not terrible.. Not sure about these slots yet.. still testing.

Cantrips:

Brainstorm - self explanitory
Serum Visions - a good draw and works well with fetch lands..
Portent - ok draw and good with fetch lands. Not a bad digger for creatures or removal.

Creatures:

Lightning Angel: Not the best creature in legacy but not bad for 4 mana.. Haste, Vigilance, and Flying. not shabby.

Grunt: With all the cantrips and removal can be a lasting beater.


I know the deck is a lot like threshold in the sense of the cantrips and counters, but that was successful for a reason. Thought about using Serra Avenger in place of either cantrip or counters.

Any suggestions?

I don't have any matchups as of yet.. Just starting playing with the deck on MWS.

The basic idea is to control the board and play either grunt or Angel.

I have no SB yet but I know aggro and combo would be problematic. I am just working on the base for the deck currently and seeing what its other weaknesses might be.


Any suggestions or comments appreciated.

[outsideangel]

Portent is not bad, but it's a bit slow. Have you tried Impulse? Digs one deeper and gets you the card now instead of later. Also it's an instant.

-3 Portent, +1 Daze, +2 Impulse

or something.

Also, it seems like Isochron Scepter would be pretty good here. Helix, Swords, Bolt, Counterspell, heck, even Brainstorm are all good on a stick.

[Pinder]

I think that Serra Avenger isn't a bad idea at all for this deck. If you're going to control route, being able to drop an Avenger 4th turn and still have mana open for counters is some good. Also, I must make the obligatory Jitte suggestion here. I know it's control, but you have 4 (possibly 8, if you run the Avengers) creatures with both flying and vigilance. Being able to swing for 3 in the air, get two counters, and still have a creature open for blocking (to get 2 more counters) is just sexy. I've lost games to a Serra Avenger wielding that retarded fire poker.

[hagar852]

I have also thought about the avenger...

She is pretty sexy..

Maybe a creature base of

Serra Avenger
Jotun Grunt
Lightning Angel

A little more on the aggro side but better consistency for win conditions..

As for the Scepter..

Eh not a big fan of the scepter... There is a person here who runs it and so there is a lot of arti hate.. but it isn't the worst card to try either.

I also thought about MD Pithing Needle for the fact that wasteland rapes my mana base... And it is nasty against other decks also...

[freakish777]

Maybe try:

-2 Counter
-3 Portent

+2 FoF
+3 Stifle

Being a "control" deck, I'd think FoF giving you a mid-late game advantage would help you put away opponents more assuredly. Also Stifle, because it's just amazing.

[hagar852]

Maybe try:

-2 Counter
-3 Portent

+2 FoF
+3 Stifle

Being a "control" deck, I'd think FoF giving you a mid-late game advantage would help you put away opponents more assuredly. Also Stifle, because it's just amazing.

Fact or fiction is a possibility...

I have been wrestling with Stifle also.. I will just have to play test it... I will try it

[hagar852]

I have been trying this creature base.

4 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Lightning Angel


Serra avenger and the lightning angel both having vigilance is great.


Hard to play without the needles. Wasteland = Rape against me.

[aznfoodgood]

HEYYY THIS LOOKS LIKE MY BROTHERS DECK!!!

Ok so hears the list he ran, by the way, the mana base was off because we don’t have enough volcanic islands =(

Lands, 24
4 tundra
4 plateau
2 volcanic islands
2 steam vents
4 flooded strands
4 windsweaped heath
2 plains
1 island
1 mountain

creatures 12
4 serra avengers
4 lightning angels
4 exalted angles

spells
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 swords
4 wrath of god
4 brainstorm
4 magma jet

SB
4 meddling mage
4 chiliast of the void
4 glow rider < should have been true believer but we didn’t have any
3 disenchant

ideally this deck just crushes many agro decks, the spot removal is ridiculous and wrath just makes things better.

Hear are his games
2-0 against this weird counter madness threshold deck. It wasn’t very good but he crushed. What saved him in the 2nd round was avengers ability to swing over and block in the same turn… yeah its prity sweet

2-1 against counter sliver. Yes pinder that was you and you did lose 4 slivers to a lucky top decked wrath of god, but that’s not the point. Im not sure exactly how these games went although I do know that counter sliver plays a lot like threshold and to play against one of the originators of the deck only makes the mach up even harder.

2-1 against life. Yes, life, he lost the first game as life proceeded to go off on turn 4, ouch. Post board, his chances improved as he did anaged to drop chiliast for 1 cutting off his gain life spell and name living wish with his Meddling mage cutting of his search for starlit sanctum

2-1 against goblins. Yes he even faced goblins. Many of the games he was at roughly 4-8 life before slapping a vigilance angle on the table and saying OHHHH GG!!!

The idea of not playing any counters makes the agro mach-up a breeze. Counters are only relevant if you have the card wile the spell is played < well no kidding… but rather then that, spot removal and or direct damage can 1 go to the dome and 2 be used against creatures. ideal the board is used in getting rid of all of those pesky combo decks as see in the situation with life.

wraping up: I believe that this deck can be very competitive with the correct sb against the correct meta, in this case it was as my meta consists of about 50% nubs, 25% goblins< people that will never have sex. 25 other random decks and a few good players. Because this deck is so focused on beating agro decks, it allows for an almost hybrid feeling as you switch to the combo match up, bringing in many different cards to protect you against your adversary

Oh and this deck does have a name for all those curious, the decks name is mean girls credited to my brother.

[hagar852]

After doing some more testing I made the following changes.

-1 Plateau
-1 Windswept Heath
-2 Lightning Angels
-3 Portent

+4 Serra Avenger
+3 Pithing Needle


Yes I knew that wasteland would be a problem... Adding Pithing Needle can hopefully negate that... If need me I will change the base a little bit to add more basics. Then I would have to change the Windswepts with Bloodstained mires.

I went down to 18 lands... Not sure if this is the best move yet but I still have to test it more thoroughly.

[aznfoodgood]

have you thought about more fat? angel would fit well in this deck. MD pyroclasm for gobs? just some quick thoughts

[hagar852]

Here is the updated list of my deck after testing... I might be replacing portent with Sleight of Hand...

// Lands
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Plateau
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [CHK] Island (4)
2 [CHK] Plains (3)

// Creatures
4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [TSP] Lightning Angel
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [5E] Portent
2 [8E] Wrath of God
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [8E] Wrath of God
SB: 4 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MI] Disenchant
SB: 3 [MR] Isochron Scepter

[Mordenkain]

I once did some testing with this type of deck. That was before the coming of serra avenger and grunt, which may have been why it didnt do so well.
Heres my old take, witht the new and better creatures:

// Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
3 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Lightning Angel

// Spells
3 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pyroclasm
4 Lightning Helix
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 4 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 3 Rough/Tumble


Pyroclasm is really really sick in this deck. Doesnt hurt your creatures at all, and is basicly a board sweeper against mose deck in this format. One sided wrath of god...

I like consistency, which is why i always play cards as a 3-of at least. Running stuff as 2 or 1-ofs is really to random to be good imo.

I choose to run stifle maindeck simply for being plain awesome. Against most deck it can act as a 1cc LD by hitting a fetchland. It totally rapes combo, and even against goblins it can be used as a semi-timewalk against lackey. Also, it can be used to let your grunt live another turn.

Over and out
- Mordenkain

[hagar852]

I thought about the pyroclasm maindeck myself.

I think I will remove the portents in place of those.

I have threshold and a random mono green deck with untargetable creatures so I I need at least a 2 of wrath of god.

And also there is a G/W/R zoo type deck with Kird Ape, Skyshroud Elite, and Watch Wolfs. So pyroclasm is sub par in that match up, another reason why I MD the wraths.

You list is just about that I have also. Cool... The toughest matchup is against control. With so few creatures their removal just pwns this deck.. Running only 4 Forces isn't enough sometimes.

If you have been playing that list at all let me know how it has been working out for you.

[Mordenkain]

I thought about the pyroclasm maindeck myself.

I think I will remove the portents in place of those.

I have threshold and a random mono green deck with untargetable creatures so I I need at least a 2 of wrath of god.

And also there is a G/W/R zoo type deck with Kird Ape, Skyshroud Elite, and Watch Wolfs. So pyroclasm is sub par in that match up, another reason why I MD the wraths.

You list is just about that I have also. Cool... The toughest matchup is against control. With so few creatures their removal just pwns this deck.. Running only 4 Forces isn't enough sometimes.

If you have been playing that list at all let me know how it has been working out for you.

Well my experience is somewhat like yours. It really shines against fast agro decks, like stompy and goblins and can pack a good punch against combo deck with the needles, grunts, stifles and FoW. As you said, it lacks against control, which actually isnt so bad in the current meta, since its mostly fast agro with some agro control decks in the mix aswell as some combo.

One change to the decklist i was thinking about playing around with it here a while ago, was:

MB:
-4 Pyroclasm
+4 Rough/Tumble

SB:
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3 Rough/Tumble
+4 Wrath of God

About the main deck change i really think ive hit jackpot. Its essentially a pyroclasm that doesnt hurt 2/3 of your creatures. But one thing that holds me back is the deck Faerie Stompy. Only reason really.

Also the SB WoGs would make the agro matchup better against agro based on bigger creatures. Although, it may be to slow, not really sure.

Also, ive been thinking about testing Exalted Angel in the place of Lightning Angel, since i really find the Lightning Angel subpar at times. Also, I think it's 4cc is really a tad to slow. Im trying to find a good 3cc or so, if anyone know one, ill be happy to know.

About the number of counters, i think its a choice to run less than normal counters, and sometimes i feel a tad low on blue cards to support FoW. Not than im gonna cut it, no way, but i really feel that we either need more blue cards, or maybe cut blue completely for some other color, like black. Personally i like proactive disruption better than reactive. Splashing black would also give us Vindicate and maybe Dark Confidant.

Well, thats all i have for now.

Oh and hagar852, one question: You mention your own meta as a reason to run WoGs over Pyroclasm/Rough//Tumble. So i just ask, is this thread about developing a new agro-control type deck, or a deck that suits your meta? Cause if its for your meta, I would really like to start a thread myself about this deck, which also would show some more testing results when i gather more.

- Mordenkain

[hagar852]

Well my experience is somewhat like yours. It really shines against fast agro decks, like stompy and goblins and can pack a good punch against combo deck with the needles, grunts, stifles and FoW. As you said, it lacks against control, which actually isnt so bad in the current meta, since its mostly fast agro with some agro control decks in the mix aswell as some combo.

One change to the decklist i was thinking about playing around with it here a while ago, was:

MB:
-4 Pyroclasm
+4 Rough/Tumble

SB:
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3 Rough/Tumble
+4 Wrath of God

About the main deck change i really think ive hit jackpot. Its essentially a pyroclasm that doesnt hurt 2/3 of your creatures. But one thing that holds me back is the deck Faerie Stompy. Only reason really.

Also the SB WoGs would make the agro matchup better against agro based on bigger creatures. Although, it may be to slow, not really sure.

Also, ive been thinking about testing Exalted Angel in the place of Lightning Angel, since i really find the Lightning Angel subpar at times. Also, I think it's 4cc is really a tad to slow. Im trying to find a good 3cc or so, if anyone know one, ill be happy to know.

About the number of counters, i think its a choice to run less than normal counters, and sometimes i feel a tad low on blue cards to support FoW. Not than im gonna cut it, no way, but i really feel that we either need more blue cards, or maybe cut blue completely for some other color, like black. Personally i like proactive disruption better than reactive. Splashing black would also give us Vindicate and maybe Dark Confidant.

Well, thats all i have for now.

Oh and hagar852, one question: You mention your own meta as a reason to run WoGs over Pyroclasm/Rough//Tumble. So i just ask, is this thread about developing a new agro-control type deck, or a deck that suits your meta? Cause if its for your meta, I would really like to start a thread myself about this deck, which also would show some more testing results when i gather more.

- Mordenkain

Well I only mentioned my meta to explain why I MD 2 Wrath of Gods, so that card only as a MD is a meta choice. I started this thread to open up discussion on making this deck more competitive.

I have a goblin deck in my meta, threshold, a black/white (which I also play myself but people started to play a lot of hate against me, so I decided to switch) and a landstill deck.

The landstill matchup is a very bad one for this deck as mentioned on how diffiicult it is to play control. The needles are big in this matchup but you must counter the disenchants to protect them or it is game over. Or Counter the crucible. But any good landstill player won't play crucible without counter backup.

I thought about cutting out the blue myself and putting in black. With the release of extirpate out control matchup just rocketed in our favor.

Going to the color black my give us more fodder against aggro and goblins.. Engineered Plague + Pyroclasm.. The goblin deck I have to face has shared triumph to counter the plague.

And ofcourse the inclusion of Vindicate would be very nice.

I will be playing in a tounrey tomorrow with the list I posted above.. I will try teh MD pyroclasm instead of the portent... Or I will try Sleight of Hand instead of the portent to help with the amount of blue cards to feed the FOW.

I will post how I do in the tourney tomorrow.

I have played 2 tournies with the deck already and the only matchup that is terrible was the mono green untargetable and the landstill. I was able to win all other matches except goblins which I was able to pull out a game.

I was able to handle the zoo variant without much trouble and other random aggro decks.. I did lose to a U/G madness do to terrible draws and the only land I draw getting waste landed. I had to mulligan down to 5 both games.. it was that bad.

Let me know if you have come up with any other ideas.

Hagar852

[Mordenkain]

Hey again hagar.
So, how did ya tournament go?

Also heres my most recent thoughts about the deck, just randomly pulled out from my head:

Lightning Angel is not really worth the 4cc. 4cc for a 3/4 that could have been Exalted Angel is reallly not good. I tested around with Exalted Angel, and i found thats good, but its still not good enough because:
1) You decrease amount of blue cards, which already there is too few of.
2) You use both turn 3 + 4 to make this thing matter. That cuts you of stifles, rough//tumbles and lightning helixes a whole extra turn, which is not worth it.
Therefore im testing Serendib Efreet in its place atm. It is also flying, as is thus not hurt by rough//tumble.

-3 Lighning Angel
+3 Serendib Efreet

I feel this deck is much of a metagame deck, suited to beat a meta of fast agro and combo. Therefore, I think it would be unwise to try to improve our control matchup. So yeah, landstill is a bad matchup, as most other dedicated control decks, since our creatures lack ways to be protected from removal, and we got litttle counters to stop the removal. But legacy currently lacks good contorl decks, which is why i think we have a chance to shine.
Just wanted to say.

Another thing is, that i have been not so happy about Lightning Helix's 2cc lately. Its really a great spell, and is removal + stall time against agro, but it's 2cc mana cost is bugging me really. We might want to test out good old Lightning Bolt in its place for a while. Oh and it also increases answers to turn 1 lackey.

-4 Lightning Helix
+4 Lightning Bolt

Something else than have been anoying me is serum visions. I like how the whole deck but creatures/needles/clasms is instant BUT serum visions. Being able to sit with open mana and be able to respond with stifles/swords/lightnings and if not used being able to brainstorm instead EOT is really really good. But serum visions as a sorcery is really bugging this. So I will test some other instant 1cc draw spell in its place.

-3 Serum Visions
+3 1cc blue draw spell

Last thing im not really sure about, but maybe we should try to move the needles to the SB, to free up more MD space for more blue cards, to better be able to support FoW. Either Daze, Counterspell or Mana Leak should be in its place i think. About the SB change, i found that jitte is not really suited to this deck because of out realatively low creature count. So yeah...

MD:
-3 Pithing Needle
+3 Daze/Counterspell/Mana Leak

SB:
-3 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Pitihng Needle.

So, an updated list that i would be testing with would be like:

// Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
3 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Serendib Efreet

// Spells
3 Miscalculation
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Rough//Tumble
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Wrath of God

EDIT: About the Serum Visions' slot, i found out something to test: Miscalculation. Its a much needed additional counter, and it cycles if needed, what ya think? Ill test it in the Daze/counterspell/mana leak slot and let the 3 serum visions get back to the deck, since their so good for card quality.
Oh and against goblins and the like, you side miscalculations out for WoG's.

- Mordenkain

[hagar852]

Hey again hagar.
So, how did ya tournament go?

Also heres my most recent thoughts about the deck, just randomly pulled out from my head:

Lightning Angel is not really worth the 4cc. 4cc for a 3/4 that could have been Exalted Angel is reallly not good. I tested around with Exalted Angel, and i found thats good, but its still not good enough because:
1) You decrease amount of blue cards, which already there is too few of.
2) You use both turn 3 + 4 to make this thing matter. That cuts you of stifles, rough//tumbles and lightning helixes a whole extra turn, which is not worth it.
Therefore im testing Serendib Efreet in its place atm. It is also flying, as is thus not hurt by rough//tumble.

-3 Lighning Angel
+3 Serendib Efreet

I feel this deck is much of a metagame deck, suited to beat a meta of fast agro and combo. Therefore, I think it would be unwise to try to improve our control matchup. So yeah, landstill is a bad matchup, as most other dedicated control decks, since our creatures lack ways to be protected from removal, and we got litttle counters to stop the removal. But legacy currently lacks good contorl decks, which is why i think we have a chance to shine.
Just wanted to say.

Another thing is, that i have been not so happy about Lightning Helix's 2cc lately. Its really a great spell, and is removal + stall time against agro, but it's 2cc mana cost is bugging me really. We might want to test out good old Lightning Bolt in its place for a while. Oh and it also increases answers to turn 1 lackey.

-4 Lightning Helix
+4 Lightning Bolt

Something else than have been anoying me is serum visions. I like how the whole deck but creatures/needles/clasms is instant BUT serum visions. Being able to sit with open mana and be able to respond with stifles/swords/lightnings and if not used being able to brainstorm instead EOT is really really good. But serum visions as a sorcery is really bugging this. So I will test some other instant 1cc draw spell in its place.

-3 Serum Visions
+3 1cc blue draw spell

Last thing im not really sure about, but maybe we should try to move the needles to the SB, to free up more MD space for more blue cards, to better be able to support FoW. Either Daze, Counterspell or Mana Leak should be in its place i think. About the SB change, i found that jitte is not really suited to this deck because of out realatively low creature count. So yeah...

MD:
-3 Pithing Needle
+3 Daze/Counterspell/Mana Leak

SB:
-3 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Pitihng Needle.

So, an updated list that i would be testing with would be like:

// Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
3 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Serendib Efreet

// Spells
3 Miscalculation
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Rough//Tumble
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Wrath of God

EDIT: About the Serum Visions' slot, i found out something to test: Miscalculation. Its a much needed additional counter, and it cycles if needed, what ya think? Ill test it in the Daze/counterspell/mana leak slot and let the 3 serum visions get back to the deck, since their so good for card quality.
Oh and against goblins and the like, you side miscalculations out for WoG's.

- Mordenkain

I had my tourney on SAT.. These are the games I played...

before I report I made the following changes..

-1 Jotun grunt.. Sometimes I would draw too many
-3 portent.... this card is ok but not enough


+1 Island
+3 counterspell.

Round 1 Soldiers.. This is my friend's deck he tried making like the goblins. Obviously not as good as gobbos but the deck is lethal once it gets going with first strike. Stifle was good nailing the ability of the enlistment officer which is a gobbo ringleader, denying him to rip for soldiers. I was drawing counter spell but found it to be subpar at times. I won 2-1.. sb pyroclasms and isochrons... he couldn't deal with them... I sided out the counterspells

Round 2.. U/G Madness.. Last time I played this guy I mana screwed myself.. So I went to 20 lands to help prevent any such thing again... It payed off... Needle was mvp shutting down wild mongrel and wastelands. I won first game when we were both at 1. I drew brainstorm and pulled lightning helix. Lightning Helix's life can be crucial at times and it is almost impossible to remove this card.. It was so useful all day. Game 2 he sided in chalice of the void and dropped it for 1.. I played Isochron with swords to plowshares and that was pretty much it. 2-0 sided out counterspells in this match up also

Round 3.. R/G/w Zoo variant.. Another good friend of mine who knows my deck as well as I do, so this makes playing even harder. I win game one with swords and helix long game being in top deck mode but I ended up pulling it out with grunts and Serra. Game 2 he was able to beat me down with kird apes and skyshroud elites.. Game 3 I was able to get ischron and helix and then another with counterspell.. he scooped.. 2-1 I sided out stifle since he has almost nothing to stifle in his deck and left the counters there for possible scepter food.


Once again I play mono green untargetable deck and can't do a damn thing. 0-2.

Made top 4 winning all of my matches just to face mono green boy once again and once again I can do nothing.


Counterspell only really helped in the 3rd round against the R/G zoo. And its help marginal.. most of the time I was wanting Lightning bolts in that spot which I removed for counterspells just about to help support FOW.

I was going to remove the counterspells and put in bolts... Burn to the face sometimes is very needed.

Lightning Angel is great for the haste and vig. Problem with her and Serendib is they are both blue and can't block Piledrivers. Exalted angel is to easily delt with and with a 6cc ugh..

I thought about using Pristine angel... 6cc and pro everything.. with all the instants in this deck you can support her ability to untap her. I know she is slow but maybe playable... Only way to remove her is WOG. I am the only person besides Landstill that runs them.

So as it stands right now I am at a loss of what to do now. As it seems I can't take the deck much farther unless I change it completely in another direction. The Pristine Angels might be ok, but takes out another blue card for FOW. The only way to really know if it will work is to play test it.. Theorizing about its success or failure is not a legitiment way of ruling it out.


By the way.. I still can't beat gobbos.. My friend played this deck and I played his gobbo deck... He pyroclasmed twice swordsed twice,, helixed twice, and I still overwhelmed him.. It was ridiculous..

Well anyway that is what I have so far..

Let me know if you have any news.

[hagar852]

Hey again hagar.
So, how did ya tournament go?

Also heres my most recent thoughts about the deck, just randomly pulled out from my head:

Lightning Angel is not really worth the 4cc. 4cc for a 3/4 that could have been Exalted Angel is reallly not good. I tested around with Exalted Angel, and i found thats good, but its still not good enough because:
1) You decrease amount of blue cards, which already there is too few of.
2) You use both turn 3 + 4 to make this thing matter. That cuts you of stifles, rough//tumbles and lightning helixes a whole extra turn, which is not worth it.
Therefore im testing Serendib Efreet in its place atm. It is also flying, as is thus not hurt by rough//tumble.

-3 Lighning Angel
+3 Serendib Efreet

I feel this deck is much of a metagame deck, suited to beat a meta of fast agro and combo. Therefore, I think it would be unwise to try to improve our control matchup. So yeah, landstill is a bad matchup, as most other dedicated control decks, since our creatures lack ways to be protected from removal, and we got litttle counters to stop the removal. But legacy currently lacks good contorl decks, which is why i think we have a chance to shine.
Just wanted to say.

Another thing is, that i have been not so happy about Lightning Helix's 2cc lately. Its really a great spell, and is removal + stall time against agro, but it's 2cc mana cost is bugging me really. We might want to test out good old Lightning Bolt in its place for a while. Oh and it also increases answers to turn 1 lackey.

-4 Lightning Helix
+4 Lightning Bolt

Something else than have been anoying me is serum visions. I like how the whole deck but creatures/needles/clasms is instant BUT serum visions. Being able to sit with open mana and be able to respond with stifles/swords/lightnings and if not used being able to brainstorm instead EOT is really really good. But serum visions as a sorcery is really bugging this. So I will test some other instant 1cc draw spell in its place.

-3 Serum Visions
+3 1cc blue draw spell

Last thing im not really sure about, but maybe we should try to move the needles to the SB, to free up more MD space for more blue cards, to better be able to support FoW. Either Daze, Counterspell or Mana Leak should be in its place i think. About the SB change, i found that jitte is not really suited to this deck because of out realatively low creature count. So yeah...

MD:
-3 Pithing Needle
+3 Daze/Counterspell/Mana Leak

SB:
-3 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Pitihng Needle.

So, an updated list that i would be testing with would be like:

// Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
3 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Serendib Efreet

// Spells
3 Miscalculation
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Rough//Tumble
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Wrath of God

EDIT: About the Serum Visions' slot, i found out something to test: Miscalculation. Its a much needed additional counter, and it cycles if needed, what ya think? Ill test it in the Daze/counterspell/mana leak slot and let the 3 serum visions get back to the deck, since their so good for card quality.
Oh and against goblins and the like, you side miscalculations out for WoG's.

- Mordenkain

I had my tourney on SAT.. These are the games I played...

before I report I made the following changes..

-1 Jotun grunt.. Sometimes I would draw too many
-3 portent.... this card is ok but not enough


+1 Island
+3 counterspell.

Round 1 Soldiers.. This is my friend's deck he tried making like the goblins. Obviously not as good as gobbos but the deck is lethal once it gets going with first strike. Stifle was good nailing the ability of the enlistment officer which is a gobbo ringleader, denying him to rip for soldiers. I was drawing counter spell but found it to be subpar at times. I won 2-1.. sb pyroclasms and isochrons... he couldn't deal with them... I sided out the counterspells

Round 2.. U/G Madness.. Last time I played this guy I mana screwed myself.. So I went to 20 lands to help prevent any such thing again... It payed off... Needle was mvp shutting down wild mongrel and wastelands. I won first game when we were both at 1. I drew brainstorm and pulled lightning helix. Lightning Helix's life can be crucial at times and it is almost impossible to remove this card.. It was so useful all day. Game 2 he sided in chalice of the void and dropped it for 1.. I played Isochron with swords to plowshares and that was pretty much it. 2-0 sided out counterspells in this match up also

Round 3.. R/G/w Zoo variant.. Another good friend of mine who knows my deck as well as I do, so this makes playing even harder. I win game one with swords and helix long game being in top deck mode but I ended up pulling it out with grunts and Serra. Game 2 he was able to beat me down with kird apes and skyshroud elites.. Game 3 I was able to get ischron and helix and then another with counterspell.. he scooped.. 2-1 I sided out stifle since he has almost nothing to stifle in his deck and left the counters there for possible scepter food.


Once again I play mono green untargetable deck and can't do a damn thing. 0-2.

Made top 4 winning all of my matches just to face mono green boy once again and once again I can do nothing.


Counterspell only really helped in the 3rd round against the R/G zoo. And its help marginal.. most of the time I was wanting Lightning bolts in that spot which I removed for counterspells just about to help support FOW.

I was going to remove the counterspells and put in bolts... Burn to the face sometimes is very needed.

Lightning Angel is great for the haste and vig. Problem with her and Serendib is they are both blue and can't block Piledrivers. Exalted angel is to easily delt with and with a 6cc ugh..

I thought about using Pristine angel... 6cc and pro everything.. with all the instants in this deck you can support her ability to untap her. I know she is slow but maybe playable... Only way to remove her is WOG. I am the only person besides Landstill that runs them.

So as it stands right now I am at a loss of what to do now. As it seems I can't take the deck much farther unless I change it completely in another direction. The Pristine Angels might be ok, but takes out another blue card for FOW. The only way to really know if it will work is to play test it.. Theorizing about its success or failure is not a legitiment way of ruling it out.


By the way.. I still can't beat gobbos.. My friend played this deck and I played his gobbo deck... He pyroclasmed twice swordsed twice,, helixed twice, and I still overwhelmed him.. It was ridiculous..

Well anyway that is what I have so far..

Let me know if you have any news.