[Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup [Archive]

Phantom

11-27-2006, 03:40 PM

I'm usually extra nice to article writers as I think it is extremely difficult to write articles and faily easy to blast them. That being said, I have a few complaints. I found the article a little too elementary.

He seems to take the lists he posted as gospel and hardly discusses variations. I mean, isn't R/w Goblins more or at least as popular than Mono red at this point? Isn't this why Thresh decks don't board in Worship any more? No mention of StP being a bomb FOR Goblins? No mention of the many SB Goblins mono red can board in to beat Worship.

Still, my biggest problem was the lack of discussion about Goblins mana denial strategy. I've always found this to be the key for or against Goblins, and the key to shutting down Thresh's board cards and he barely mentions it. No discussion on when to use port/waste and when to just go aggro. No discussion on the proper use of fetches by threshold (when to go basic and when not to). No discussion on shutting out Crusade and Worship through Port...

Basically I thought it was a conscise, well written article for non Legacy players, but could have used some more detail.

AnwarA101

11-27-2006, 03:59 PM

Since I played the matchup this weekend in a very close game 2, I'm not sure whether the Threshold player should counter Goblin Matron. Countering it means the Goblin player doesn't have the 1/1 in play and doesn't have the card in hand. I think I usually don't counter matron but I think I should. It seems there should be no reason to allow them to put a 1/1 in play that makes Incinerator that much better. Any thoughts on this ? I agree that more in-depth analysis of the matchup would have helped. But I'm not complaining about Legacy articles. At least people are thinking about the format.

Bardo

11-27-2006, 04:11 PM

kirdape3

11-27-2006, 05:41 PM

The list that Chris used to bash people is very close to what we have (no Tinkerers main, 4 Commanders, 24 land). Adam's list is also pretty close to our gauntlet list.

His analysis is actually really spot on. We abandoned Threshold very quickly because even with cards like Tividar's Crusade a competent Goblins player is well ahead in the matchup. We tried Red threshold, but that deck can't beat a combo deck to save it's life and the matchup versus Goblins never got so good to play it anyways.

Do you counter Demonic Tutor? I personally do a lot especially if they have outs that just bury me. Incinerator crushes every non-Mongoose guy in your deck, and if Vial's online then none of your counterspells work anyways unless they tap for mana for some reason.

Here's actually what he didn't say about the matchup (the replies are being addressed in the order that I read them, which is inverted):

R/w Goblins is probably not worth the time. White doesn't give you anything you particularly care about - Plow is both counterable and stopped by Chalice 1, the best bomb in the matchup, Disenchant or Kami of Ancient Law has easily replaced analogues in Green or can be eschewed entirely in the case of monored, Armageddon never resolves or is not required to win the game, and any other options probably aren't as good anyways.

With that out of the way, even if you think that Worship won't live (if I were a thinking Threshold player trying to deal with a very problematic matchup, I'd be holding my hard counters for specifically Disenchants or Kamis and nothing else if I thought I could stick a Worship) you still should be boarding some of them or even maindecking a pair since that will win every game 1 with a Mongoose that I can think of.

I'm pretty sure that the mana denial is pretty obvious since Threshold has a minimum number of basic lands. Fetchlands only hold up for so long until you actually have to play a spell, and then the world comes crashing down. If it came between Porting a land and playing a spell, you have to take into account the board position. Early, you just want to be drawing into more lands so you'll probably Time Walk by Porting one of their few lands during their upkeep. In the midgame, you're trying to cut them off of GW2 for Enforcer or WW1 postboard for Tividar's Crusade. Vial is pretty key here since at that point you just Port them every turn. Wastelands act both to cut them off of a color and to put extra pressure on their Werebears to not be able to block if they want to not get avalanched on the board.

Also, even without Vial or Lackey the matchup is still very much in Goblins' favor. Vial or Lackey just make it easier to actually accomplish the win. Threshold's game is in general not that powerful and they often get overrun. I'd definitely be happy just running Siege-Gang Commanders and Ringleaders and proxies for either (Matrons mostly) at Threshold on turn 6.

SpatulaOfTheAges

11-27-2006, 06:02 PM

The main reason to counter Matron would be to either:

1) Prevent them from getting an Incinerator to their hand (i.e. uncounterable cycling)

2) If you're in full-on aggro-control mode and it's better to pitch two cards to force damage through and not have another chump blocker in the way to win a turn or two quicker.

There are other reasons that are less likely to come up. For instance they play a Matron and have a vial for 4 or 5 on the table. I'd counter that guy for sure.

When is the creature they're getting with Matron not going to be worth countering? Logically isn't countering a Matron the same as countering whatever card(minus Vial) you're most afraid of, plus eliminating Gempalm and Piledriver synergy, as well as a chump blocker?

R/w Goblins is probably not worth the time. White doesn't give you anything you particularly care about - Plow is both counterable and stopped by Chalice 1, the best bomb in the matchup,

I doubt that. The ability to directly answer Were-Bear and Enforcer in the mid-game seems highly relevant, and StP is relatively difficult to counter, since it costs 1 in a deck full of must-counters.

Bardo

11-27-2006, 06:20 PM

When is the creature they're getting with Matron not going to be worth countering? Logically isn't countering a Matron the same as countering whatever card(minus Vial) you're most afraid of, plus eliminating Gempalm and Piledriver synergy, as well as a chump blocker?

I was responding to Anwar's comment. Under different circumstances, you'd let tutor resolve and counter what they tutor for to make them waste their mana for a turn and gain a slight tempo boost. But Goblins has a few uncounterable effects (Incinerator, Vial), short of Stifle, so that's got to be considered.

kirdape3

11-27-2006, 06:31 PM

I answer both of them with an uncounterable Gempalm Incinerator. It also falls prey to the one card I particularly want to land, and that's Chalice of the Void at 1 counter.

If you think that Matron's getting a Gempalm Incinerator that would be relevant, then you have to counter that card. Incinerator is awesome in that matchup especially in the first game when you can just commit everything to the board when you draw it.

Mad Zur

11-27-2006, 08:35 PM

Concentrate on early creatures and then reaching ThresholdThis advice is my biggest complaint with the article. Werebear should almost never come down early and Mongoose should only do so either to answer Lackey or when you run out of other things to play. Furthermore, it implies that reaching Threshold is a major part of your strategy, which is generally not the case. It's important to keep track of your graveyard, but using resources to acheive Threshold rather than to efficiently answer the opponent's threats is usually going to be a mistake.

We tried Red threshold, but that deck can't beat a combo deck to save it's life
I believe any good Gro list with a reasonably experienced player should win a clear majority of its games against the commonly played combo decks in this format. What sort of build did you try, what sort of attempt was it, and against what combo decks did it lose?

Machinus

11-27-2006, 08:41 PM

Furthermore, it implies that reaching Threshold is a major part of your strategy, which is generally not the case. It's important to keep track of your graveyard, but using resources to acheive Threshold rather than to efficiently answer the opponent's threats is usually going to be a mistake.

Actually, that's one thing he is right about. You're not actually spending any resources to reach threshold anyway; it's a side effect of playing with more synergistic cards. Early threshold gives the deck the option to play an very aggressive aggro game, which is obviously relevant.

AnwarA101

11-27-2006, 09:40 PM

I was responding to Anwar's comment. Under different circumstances, you'd let counter resolve and counter what they tutor for to make them waste their mana for a turn and gain a slight tempo boost. But Goblins has a few uncounterable effects (Incinerator, Vial), short of Stifle, so that's got to be considered.

I'm just wondering if always countering Matron is the best idea since it leaves them without a chump blocker and without the card in their hand. But I can see where having them spend another turn on casting the following creature and countering that could be useful, but then again they get to block for a turn with Matron if they are playing defense to begin with. I guess I'm wondering if its usually best to counter Matron? I'm beginning to think so.

Bardo

11-27-2006, 09:50 PM

I'm just wondering if always countering Matron is the best idea since it leaves them without a chump blocker and without the card in their hand. But I can see where having them spend another turn on casting the following creature and countering that could be useful, but then again they get to block for a turn with Matron if they are playing defense to begin with. I guess I'm wondering if its usually best to counter Matron? I'm beginning to think so.

Without being evasive, it depends. And what it depends on is a number of things: number of Goblins in play (i.e. Incinerator), who's the beatdown (at the moment), active Vial or no, cards in hand, how quickly you plan on winning, what's preventing you from winning; and generally, the board state and life totals, etc.

But yeah, your primary reason for not countering Matron would be for them to spend some other wad of mana that you'd counter instead. If you were reasonably sure they were going for SGC, for instance, I would often be happy for my opponent to spend eight mana on a 1/1. Depending on the game state, cards in hand, etc., it might be worth it to let Matron resolve. It's a calculated risk, but if you play it right, that's like two free turns right there.

Like I said, it depends. ;)

Edit - But just the threat of Incinerator alone, with a critical mass of Goblins, is good reason to counter Matron.

AnwarA101

11-27-2006, 09:59 PM

Without being evasive, it depends. And what it depends on is a number of things: number of Goblins in play (i.e. Incinerator), who's the beatdown (at the moment), active Vial or no, cards in hand, how quickly you plan on winning, what's preventing you from winning; and generally, the board state and life totals, etc.

But yeah, your primary reason for not countering Matron would be for them to spend some other wad of mana that you'd counter instead. If you were reasonably sure they were going for SGC, for instance, I would often be happy for my opponent to spend eight mana on a 1/1. Depending on the game state, cards in hand, etc., it might be worth it to let Matron resolve. It's a calculated risk, but if you play it right, that's like two free turns right there.

Like I said, it depends. ;)

Yeah I agree that it depends on the situation, but Matron seems like a fine counter target. I found that having a less cluttered board is to the advantage of Thresh player because with less creatures on their side of the table your board position is better with just a couple of creatures. Besides with less creatures they can hardly take advantage of double blocking. But this might another case for playing Stifle in the board. The fact that Stifle can be used against both Goblins and combo decks seems to make the card fairly versatile in Legacy.

Bongo

11-27-2006, 10:01 PM

We tried Red threshold, but that deck can't beat a combo deck to save it's life and the matchup versus Goblins never got so good to play it anyways.

As an advocate of UGR Thresh, I would be inclined to disagree. However, a player of your caliber usually knows what they're saying. Could you go more in-depth about your testing results?

hi-val

11-27-2006, 11:42 PM

Oh snap, this thread on my article is blowin' up! Thanks for all the constructive feedback, guys.

I was unimpressed with UGR Threshold since the red cards only let you 1-for-1 anyway, outside of F/I hitting two Goblins. 1-for-1ing isn't how Threshold wins the game. White gives Mage and the incredible Grunt off the board so I'm inclined to lean towards it instead.

Matron is like the best tutor in the entire format, so you're correct in talking about whether to counter it. It's sooooooo good.

Mad Zur, I respectfully disagree. In my article, I talk about how Threshold needs to leverage its early creature advantages as best as possible. Getting Geese and Bears big early means that you have a lot of options. Personally I'd rather be reaching Threshold than sitting on Counterspells.

Phantom

11-27-2006, 11:49 PM

Yeah I agree that it depends on the situation, but Matron seems like a fine counter target.

Most of the points made on here about countering/not countering Matron seem valid, but we seem to have missed a great reason for not countering. Say they go get a Ringleader and I counter the Ringleader as opposed to the Matron. Now they are playing with one less Ringleader. This is pretty huge, especially with something like SGC, which they are almost always not running as a 4 of.

Still, I would say that thanks to things like Incinerator and Vial, countering Matron is a good idea roughly 90% of the time.

R/w Goblins is probably not worth the time. White doesn't give you anything you particularly care about - Plow is both counterable and stopped by Chalice 1, the best bomb in the matchup, Disenchant or Kami of Ancient Law has easily replaced analogues in Green or can be eschewed entirely in the case of monored, Armageddon never resolves or is not required to win the game, and any other options probably aren't as good anyways.

I'm not sure if you're dismissing R/w all together, or just vs. Thresh, but either way I'd have to disagree (Tournement results would disagree as well). The anti-synergy between Chalice and swords is a complete non factor. I've tested Chalice against Thresh a ton, and resolving Chalice against Thresh is game over at least 80% of the time, so who really cares that you have 4 more dead cards. The fact Swords can cheaply swat a Mystic Enforcer out of the sky, and clear the ground of Werebears is much more relevant. Counting on Incinerator to take care of both of them is just plain dumb due your Goblin count on the board (which is often not 4, let alone 6), and the fact that Goblins is only allowed to run 4 Geplams.

I haven't tested Worship out of the board enough to fully comment on it, but I really don't like the idea. Here are some problems:

1) It's 4cc and they are running between 4 and 8 mana denial lands so that means I'm probably going to have to draw between 5 and 7 of my 17 land. A large number of those lands are fetches which are removing 2 of my land from the deck. In other words, having the mana to cast Worship before I'm dead is far from guaranteed.

2) Holding back counters in anticipation of resolving a Worship is a nice plan, but a competant Goblins player with a resonable draw is going to make you use those counters or die, so their answers will often resolve.

3) You have to have a Mongoose alive in order for Worship to really matter. Thresh only runs four Mongoose, so it's not even a lock that they draw one, but even if they do, it can't have died in some desperate blocking situation.

4) Krosan Grip.

5) Mono red can actually Vial in Matron to go get uncounterable answers to Worship such as Skirk Fire Marshall or Goblin Assasin. Best part about these is that they take up one sideboard slot.

I prefer to bring in cheap, versitile, and easy to cast cards like Needle, Stifle, and BEB. The last 2 are extra nice because they add to your Threshold count.

Citrus-God

11-28-2006, 10:00 AM

I was unimpressed with UGR Threshold since the red cards only let you 1-for-1 anyway, outside of F/I hitting two Goblins. 1-for-1ing isn't how Threshold wins the game. White gives Mage and the incredible Grunt off the board so I'm inclined to lean towards it instead.

Mad Zur, I respectfully disagree. In my article, I talk about how Threshold needs to leverage its early creature advantages as best as possible. Getting Geese and Bears big early means that you have a lot of options. Personally I'd rather be reaching Threshold than sitting on Counterspells.

I will disagree with this comment. There are many successful variants, but those successful variants in America dont run Mental Note. I honestly dont think Mental Note belongs in Red Thresh, just White, as White exploits it's power much better. A look reference to look at are Mad Zur's list and Wastedlife's list. Those two are very good players, with very good decklists, and they stomp the hell out of Goblins. Wastedlife's list is so good Pre-Board he'll probably have a couple Burn Spells to aim at the head to seal the game. Mad Zur's build takes a firm control over the game, and makes it swing to his favor, and make's it even better Games 2 and 3. But if you are to run Mad Zur's build, you are better off running White instead of Red unless Goblins is everywhere in your meta.

SpatulaOfTheAges

11-28-2006, 11:46 AM

I answer both of them with an uncounterable Gempalm Incinerator. It also falls prey to the one card I particularly want to land, and that's Chalice of the Void at 1 counter.

A)That's assuming you have 4-6 golbins on the board, which may be an unwise assumption, especially in the mid-game.

B)There's nothing wrong with redundancy.

C)See Phantom's point.

hi-val

11-28-2006, 01:43 PM

Anti~American4621-- Truth be told, I didn't feel like typing up decklists for the article and so I linked to the most recent article on SCG with Thresh, which went up last Monday. In my gauntlet Thresh decks, there's no Meddling Mages and there's Predict/Portent instead of Mental Note; I'm in agreement about MN being kinda bad.

Red isn't the answer because Red doesn't answer Siege-Gang Commander and Ringleader, and those are the threats that just up and bury Threshold. They let you get upwards of 4 cards out of each of them and the fact is that Threshold just has stone cold nothing to really match that or stop it.

Bongo

11-28-2006, 01:58 PM

kirdape3

11-28-2006, 05:32 PM

I'm dismissing R/w altogether. If I'm splashing a color, it's green - because the artifact/enchantment answers are better. I never particularly care about their creatures because I have tutorable removal rather than removal that I can't even draw half the time since I shipped it to the bottom of my deck. And if they successfully kill my creatures, I have a lot more where those came from. 32 creatures and all.

The consensus is actually evenly split according to recent tournament results. It's either monored (those are the decks that actually win the mirror) or R/w (splashing for mainly Disenchant actually, which seems weird since green's answers are either evenly parallel in Naturalize or strictly better in Tranquil Domain/Tin Street Hooligan). Typically, monored Goblins actually wins tournaments whereas R/w gets into the top 8 of said tournament but dies horribly to the monored deck.

As for Threshold in general, I'm pretty sure that the only reason to play the deck is to break up degenerate combo decks. Red Threshold isn't good against those same decks - nice Lightning Bolt you got there, yer dead. Every bit of testing I've ever done, against competent or better than me players (Bomholt mostly) with their combo decks obliterates me with Red Threshold because my anti-creature elements outweigh my anti-combo elements. The clock just simply isn't that fast, and he can fire off half of his combo against red deck and reload it. Meddling Mage is the biggest beating ever for combo decks because now they not only have to fight your permission but they have to get around this guy to actually win the game. Good luck there.

Bardo

11-28-2006, 06:19 PM

As for Threshold in general, I'm pretty sure that the only reason to play the deck is to break up degenerate combo decks.

Personal confession time. While I think White Thresh has a respectable game against many decks (due to its free counters, StP, lots of quick card draw and big monsters), this is mainly the reason I play the deck: to pwn combo.

In conclusion, yeah.

Phantom

11-28-2006, 06:29 PM

I'm dismissing R/w altogether. If I'm splashing a color, it's green - because the artifact/enchantment answers are better. I never particularly care about their creatures because I have tutorable removal rather than removal that I can't even draw half the time since I shipped it to the bottom of my deck. And if they successfully kill my creatures, I have a lot more where those came from. 32 creatures and all.

The consensus is actually evenly split according to recent tournament results. It's either monored (those are the decks that actually win the mirror) or R/w (splashing for mainly Disenchant actually, which seems weird since green's answers are either evenly parallel in Naturalize or strictly better in Tranquil Domain/Tin Street Hooligan). Typically, monored Goblins actually wins tournaments whereas R/w gets into the top 8 of said tournament but dies horribly to the monored deck.

Well, if you take a look at the last 6 big Legacy Tourneys (back to D4Ds III ) here's what we have:

Top 8's
R/w: 7 (3 Wins)
Mono R: 2 (1 win)
R/g: 3 (0 wins)

...so I'm not sure if you're talking about smaller or local tournements or what. I know that since then Green has gotten a major bump with the addition of Krosan Grip and I won't deny it's power, but you shouldn't deny Plows power either (especially in the face of such overwhelming data). I think it helps vs. Thresh, but maybe you don't need it. Where I know it helps a ton is vs. Aggro, specifically fast Stompy decks.

Angel Stompy and Faerie Stompy (and I guess Reanimator) have the ability to churn out very large and evasive creatures, or pro red creatures quickly, and throw equipment on them soon after. This is huge trouble for Goblins, and often times no amount of Incinerators can save you. I can speak to Swords' power in particular in the Faerie Stompy matchup as I have tested it into oblivion.

As to Stp not being tutorable, this would be similar to running Tin Street over Krosan Grip simply because Grip isn't tutorable and gets shipped to the bottom by Ringleader. So why does any green splash run Grip/Naturalize? Because it's often a better card than Tin Street. Just as StP is often a better card than Incinerator (like say, turn 2 when they've churned out something nasty).

kirdape3

11-28-2006, 06:47 PM

I mean, why only splash for one of them in the main? That seems like a prayer. Yay, I win teh prize because my opponent didn't reanimate a Simic Sky Swallower!

Our version splashes Green for Tranquil Domain and Tin Street Hooligan - but both of those are concentrated in the sideboard.

EDIT: Most of the builds that I looked at, the splash was only one of two cards in the maindeck - Disenchant or Swords to Plowshares. No version ran both as more than a 1-of each (which is indeed a hope without a way to go and get it) and most only splashed for Disenchant. Plow many times was not used as a four-of in these lists -- many of which appear to be more cute and winning off the strength of the Goblins maindeck rather than off the sideboard cards Disenchant, Swords to Plowshares, and Armageddon.

Phantom

11-28-2006, 07:49 PM

I mean, why only splash for one of them in the main? That seems like a prayer. Yay, I win teh prize because my opponent didn't reanimate a Simic Sky Swallower!

You're just proving the beauty of Stp here. R/w forces them to reanimate a SSS. Now I have 4 turns in which to deal 13 damage. I'll take that race over R/g or mono where they will fetch Akroma, and the game will be over. The best part here is when they don't realize you're splashing white and grab a so called Angel of Wrath.

And who cares how much they were splashing for? The point is that they were spashing. They wouldn't just splash white for no reason and rely on the power of Goblins to win it for them. That's the reason to play mono red. It gives you a more stable mana base and more disruption. They clearly had a reason for splashing, even if it was a small amount of cards.

For reference here's the lists I was talking about and what they were spashing for:

Calosso Fuentes 2nd @ Duel for Duals IV
Main - 3 Swords To Plowshares
Side - 3 Disenchant

Jim Fleckenstein 7th @ Duel for Duals IV
Main - 1 Swords To Plowshares, 1 Disenchant (I'm as confused as you about the one disenchant)
Side - 2 Disenchant, 2 Swords To Plowshares

Jonathan Rusiecki 1st @ Duel for Duals IV
Main - 3 Swords To Plowshares
Side - 3 Disenchant

George Whittaker 7th @ Duel for Duals IV
Main - 3 Disenchant
Side - 3 StP

Jeff Folinus 1st @ The Mana Leak Open
Main - Nothing
Side - 3 Disenchant, 1 Swords To Plowshares, 3 Armageddon

Jacob Baughman 1st @ Duel for Duals III
Main - 3 Disenchant
Side - 4 StP, 2 Leave No Trace

Albert Davis 7th @ Duel for Duals III
Main - 3 StP
Side - 4 Disenchant, 1 Swords To Plowshares, 3 Armageddon

So they all were splashing at least 6 White cards and as many as 11 and they ALL were splashing Stp. Now seeing as these lists pretty much outperformed both the green splash and mono red on the biggest Legacy stages available over and over, and StP is about the only thing seperating from their competition (green can run disenchant and only 2 of the lists ran geddon) can you really argue that Swords has no place in Goblins?

Our version splashes Green for Tranquil Domain and Tin Street Hooligan - but both of those are concentrated in the sideboard.

I would hope that at least one Tin street was in the main, but either way you're eating up a ton of board space for artifact/enchantment hate. That's going to eat into your combo/Thresh hate and maybe your aggro hate (note that nearly all of the T8 R/g lists have run Pyrokenisis as a 4 of).

kirdape3

11-28-2006, 08:05 PM

I do believe that the biggest Legacy stage was the pair of Grand Prix events. None of the others are as relevant as those, because people won't screw their decks up with cards like Plow and Disenchant in the maindeck at a Grand Prix and reliably expect to make Top 8. I mean, if people want to screw their decks up on lower levels then go ahead, but I cannot recommend it. Chris' build is about the best one that I've seen, simply because it doesn't assume that you'll ever see answers that aren't Goblins. 5+ copies of admittedly weaker cards are probably liable to be stronger than 3 copies of better ones.

Remember kids, 32-33 Goblins, 4 Vials, 23-24 lands!

Phantom

11-28-2006, 08:23 PM

I didn't use the GPs as examples since they were so long ago (and splashing Goblins had yet to really be perfected), and often the overseas meta is a mess, but since you brought them up R/w placed a deck in each T8! That's more than mono red and R/g comined! (I can't see the lists for some reason, but whatever)

Edit: I just realized how far off topic we are getting and we should probably take our discusiion over to the Goblins board and allow people to talk about the article here.

Obfuscate Freely

11-29-2006, 01:25 AM

Werebear should almost never come down early and Mongoose should only do so either to answer Lackey or when you run out of other things to play. Furthermore, it implies that reaching Threshold is a major part of your strategy, which is generally not the case. It's important to keep track of your graveyard, but using resources to acheive Threshold rather than to efficiently answer the opponent's threats is usually going to be a mistake.

Actually, that's one thing he is right about. You're not actually spending any resources to reach threshold anyway; it's a side effect of playing with more synergistic cards. Early threshold gives the deck the option to play an very aggressive aggro game, which is obviously relevant.

In my article, I talk about how Threshold needs to leverage its early creature advantages as best as possible. Getting Geese and Bears big early means that you have a lot of options. Personally I'd rather be reaching Threshold than sitting on Counterspells.

Zur is correct here. Getting to threshold will necessarily be a result of following the correct gameplan, which is to focus on stopping Goblins' developement. Doug actually highlighted the true priorities of a Gro player against Goblins:

1) Answer Lackeys and Vials.
2) Counter Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs.

Neither of those goals is accomplished by racing to threshold or by playing early creatures (aside from answering a Lackey with a Mongoose). Both goals are accomplished by chaining cantrips into Swords', Pithing Needles, and countermagic.

Threshold will obviously result from successfully maintaining the cantrip chain, and playing the answer cards. However, as Zur said, it is very rarely optimal to utilizes resources to attain threshold instead of focusing on the two real priorities - this means that yes, you should absolutely sit back on countermagic if that will let you answer the Ringleader coming down next turn, even if it delays threshold.

Once you reach the midgame, Goblins will start running low on actual threats, and will try to sneak in damage with random awful creatures. It is at this point that Gro can put down a monster or two and take over. It is pretty much necessary for Goblins to draw more Ringleaders, Matrons, and Siege-Gangs than Gro finds counterspells, which is a lot harder than it sounds since Gro has a draw engine.

Machinus

11-29-2006, 08:19 AM

Neither of those goals is accomplished by racing to threshold or by playing early creatures (aside from answering a Lackey with a Mongoose). Both goals are accomplished by chaining cantrips into Swords', Pithing Needles, and countermagic.

Threshold will obviously result from successfully maintaining the cantrip chain, and playing the answer cards. However, as Zur said, it is very rarely optimal to utilizes resources to attain threshold instead of focusing on the two real priorities - this means that yes, you should absolutely sit back on countermagic if that will let you answer the Ringleader coming down next turn, even if it delays threshold.

How is chaining cantrips into answers not trying to get threshold? If you play with good cantrips then you can just do both.

Obfuscate Freely

11-29-2006, 11:19 AM

Yes, as I said, you will generally reach threshold as a matter of course.

However, reaching threshold is not a priority. If a Ringleader resolves because you spent the prior turn tapping out to gain threshold, you made a mistake.

jamest

11-29-2006, 11:25 AM

Once you reach the midgame, Goblins will start running low on actual threats, ...
Have you seen how many ways Goblins can net card advantage? And nearly every card in the deck is a threat to Threshold.

... and will try to sneak in damage with random awful creatures.
If Goblins is in a position to safely attack, Threshold is usually in a lost position.

It is at this point that Gro can put down a monster or two and take over. It is pretty much necessary for Goblins to draw more Ringleaders, Matrons, and Siege-Gangs than Gro finds counterspells, which is a lot harder than it sounds since Gro has a draw engine.
If you think Threshold has a positive matchup against Goblins, I'd like to test with you. All my testing says Goblins crushes Threshold.

Nightmare

11-29-2006, 11:30 AM

If you think Threshold has a positive matchup against Goblins, I'd like to test with you. All my testing says Goblins crushes Threshold.Your testing is equally incorrect. Goblins vs. UGw threshold is about as close as it gets to 50/50 in Legacy.

calosso

11-29-2006, 11:33 AM

If you think Threshold has a positive matchup against Goblins, I'd like to test with you. All my testing says Goblins crushes Threshold.

I completely agree with this statement. Excepet for a few occasions were I keep bad hands. Generally I grind out the gro player by baiting counterspells and then when most of there resources are depleted I drop a siege-gang or a ringleader and the game ends.

Deep6er

11-29-2006, 11:38 AM

Jim Fleckenstein 7th @ Duel for Duals IV
Main - 1 Swords To Plowshares, 1 Disenchant (I'm as confused as you about the one disenchant)

Goddamn, I'm so amazing. Jim's a good friend of mine and time was running low. Neither of us liked the various one-of goblins that he had access to, so I told him to free up space by running one Swords and one Disenchant main. Damn, I'm cool. Anyway, interesting article just a couple of points I disagreed with but those are unimportant. Looking forward to how 'surprising' the matchup of Solidarity vs. Goblins is. Also, if I think you're wrong, be prepared to hear from me. Angrily at that. Especially considering you can just message me on the source if you had questions. Anyway, all vanity aside (although, I do expect you to reference my list in your article), definitely looking forward to your article.

jamest

11-29-2006, 12:08 PM

Your testing is equally incorrect. Goblins vs. UGw threshold is about as close as it gets to 50/50 in Legacy.
I'm willing to back up my statement with some test games. PM me and we can set up a time on MWS.

AnwarA101

11-29-2006, 12:22 PM

If you think Threshold has a positive matchup against Goblins, I'd like to test with you. All my testing says Goblins crushes Threshold.

I'm pretty sure Goblins doesn't crush Threshold. No way. I've won too many games from the Threshold side of the match to know that it just isn't true. This might be true if you are playing main deck Meddling Mage or not running Pithing Needle in the main, but I think both of those decisions are suboptimal in current Legacy. If I had a choice I would rather be the Threshold player in the matchup .

SpatulaOfTheAges

11-29-2006, 01:03 PM

I completely agree with this statement. Excepet for a few occasions were I keep bad hands. Generally I grind out the gro player by baiting counterspells and then when most of there resources are depleted I drop a siege-gang or a ringleader and the game ends.

Translation; I get paired against bad players. Out of curiosity, what are they countering that's not SGC, Matron, or Ringleader?

Bongo

11-29-2006, 01:20 PM

Machinus

11-29-2006, 01:26 PM

Look for a very in-depth two part series on this very topic to go up on SCG as soon as Craig thinks its important.

AnwarA101

11-29-2006, 02:22 PM

The matchup hinges a lot on the configuration of both Goblins and Thresh.

I'm running Machinus' list right now, and I found that it has a positive matchup against UGW Thresh. The less Needles and the more Mages Thresh runs, the worse its Goblin-matchup gets. Waste&Port is also a big reason why I see the matchup in Goblins favor.

The sideboard may change that, but I doubt it. Overall, Goblins has the edge.

I find this interesting since I played against Machinus with his list from day 1 and I was up 5-2 with UGW Thresh. I wonder what he thinks about this. You are probably talking about his winning list from Day 2 which I know is different than his day 1 list, but still its got to give you some insight into why the matchup isn't terrible from the Thresh player's perspective.

Phantom

11-29-2006, 02:25 PM

Translation; I get paired against bad players. Out of curiosity, what are they countering that's not SGC, Matron, or Ringleader?

Vial, Warchief, Piledriver, Lackey, Pyrokenisis, StP, Disenchant...

I would put the matchup squarly at 60/40, with the build making up a 5-10% variance (more Enforcers and Needles = good) Mages and more cantrips that aren't mental note = bad.

calosso

11-29-2006, 02:28 PM

Translation; I get paired against bad players. Out of curiosity, what are they countering that's not SGC, Matron, or Ringleader?

The counter vials(If they don't have needle), lackey, piledriver (if they have a suboptimal hand), warchief (If the damage is way to much). These cards are very good in the early game against gro and the have to deal with them and if they do then they have to start worrying about matron,gang-bang,and ringleader.

I cannot type.

Parcher

11-29-2006, 02:37 PM

I completely agree with this statement, except for a few occasions where my opponent doesn't shuffle my deck.. Generally I out-luck the Gro player by playing first, and after a first turn Lackey, I drop a Siege-Gang or a Ringleader and the game ends.

Edited for grammar, spelling, punctuation and truth.

Bardo

11-29-2006, 03:15 PM

Competent White Splash Threshold players will usually beat bad Goblin players with bad builds. A revelation, I know. But against a strong Goblin player with a good build, my money's on Goblins.

AEther Vial
Wasteland
Goblin Ringleader
Gempalm Incinerator
Tormod's Crypt
Siege-Gang Commander

With support from Rishadan Port, Warchief and Matron? It's pretty fucking miserable.

Against Red Splash with 4 Pyroclasm and 4 BEBs in the sideboard, I'm inclined to think Thresh will win.

I would put the matchup squarly at 60/40, with the build making up a 5-10% variance (more Enforcers and Needles = good) Mages and more cantrips that aren't mental note = bad.

Pretty much, yeah.

SpatulaOfTheAges

11-29-2006, 03:45 PM

Vial, Warchief, Piledriver, Lackey

You play between 8 non-counter answers to all of these except Vial. Most of the time these will not be must-counters. If someone is countering your warchief, unless they're at really low life, they're probably bad.

Vial is the only thing that truly swings the game in Goblin's favor. Obviously it has to be answered, but it's not a matter of "baiting".

Pyrokenisis, StP, Disenchant...

These are situationally must-counters, and in those situations, they're not bait. Baiting is tricking someone into countering something that doesn't need to be countered. This can be reasonable against a rogue deck, but when you're playing the most popular deck in the format, you should not be able to bait good players.

calosso

11-29-2006, 03:59 PM

This can be reasonable against a rogue deck, but when you're playing the most popular deck in the format, you should not be able to bait good players.
I do agree with your statement about the situational removal spells not being great bait. I normally use piledriver, warchief, or tinkereer as bait.

Nightmare

11-29-2006, 04:01 PM

Gro is not the most popular deck in the format, Vial Goblins is the most popular deck in the format.Read what he posted again, Calosso. That's exactly what he was saying.

Machinus

11-29-2006, 04:04 PM

I find this interesting since I played against Machinus with his list from day 1 and I was up 5-2 with UGW Thresh. I wonder what he thinks about this. You are probably talking about his winning list from Day 2 which I know is different than his day 1 list, but still its got to give you some insight into why the matchup isn't terrible from the Thresh player's perspective.

Well, I'll tell you what I think. My day 1 list was a pile of shit and that's why I played my real Goblins deck on day two. Anwar, I think my monored list is at least 55% vs UGW - and that's against very good players.

calosso

11-29-2006, 04:04 PM

Read what he posted again, Calosso. That's exactly what he was saying.

Thanks, I mis-read his statement.

hi-val

11-29-2006, 04:22 PM

From what I've heard, Machinus' article should be very good. My article was supposed to be an overview. My forte is not writing about all the various configurations and their merits; I find that I'm a lot better at conceptualizing and writing about tempo and tactics. The Goblins vs. Thresh match is a VERY interesting one and it always goes to the better prepared player.

One of the most salient points I think I make in the article is that Goblins can keep just about any hand they open with, but Threshold must mulligan into a Lackey answer. That shows just how much of an advantage Goblins has simply going into the match.

Mad Zur

11-29-2006, 05:13 PM

Every bit of testing I've ever done, against competent or better than me players (Bomholt mostly) with their combo decks
Again, what combo decks? I assume Bomholt would've been playing Iggy Pop; what else? (Oh, and if they're better than you, the testing probably isn't terribly accurate.)

...obliterates me with Red Threshold because my anti-creature elements outweigh my anti-combo elements.That doesn't sound right. What was your build like?

(more Enforcers and Needles = good) Mages and more cantrips that aren't mental note = bad.
I disagree. Enforcer is actually pretty poor against Goblins, for a few reasons. Firstly, you can't rely on it, because of Gempalm and sometimes StP. Secondly, by the time you can assemble four mana, the game may have already been won or lost - if you've survived that long, odds are good that you can win within a reasonable amount of time using the more efficient creatures. If the Enforcer was a draw spell, a removal spell, or a counterspell, it could actually help you get to that position. Enforcer also makes mana denial far more relevant than it should be (more on that later). It's the first card I board out.

Cantrips, on the other hand, are very good. The more draw spells you have, the more control you have over the cards you draw; the ratio of land to spells (again, this is relevant to just how good Goblins' mana denial is), the numbers of threats and answers, and the type of answers. This is the fundamental concept of the deck, and it applies just as well in this matchup as in any other.

On the subject of what actually constitutes a threat from Goblins, a large number of things can be threats but at any given time only some of them are and they are not necessarily must-counters.

You have four basic answers in your deck: Counters, removal, Pithing Needle, and creatures. Some threats are answered by most of these (Goblin Piledriver). They are not must-counters. Some threats are answered by very few of these (Aether Vial). They are often good to counter. But only two are immune to all of your other options (Ringleader and SGC). They are the only must-counters in the deck. They also happen to be the most expensive cards in the deck.

So if you can't accept Piledriver not being a threat, it is. But it's the kind of threat that gets answered by creatures at a better than one to one ratio, often much better. A threat that has often already been answered before you play it because you can't make a favorable attack even with an extra creature. Of course, to simplify things, some people prefer to say that it isn't a threat.

Removal is rarely a threat, because Werebear is rarely key to my survival. By the time Goblins is in a position to have a big enough horde of creatures on the board that I have to have blockers, I've either got a Mongoose or enough Werebears that they can't remove them all. Gempalm is annoying because it's actually card advantage, but not nearly as good as you all seem to believe. Swords is decent but very rarely good enough to waste a counterspell on. Pyrokinesis is much worse.

Mana denial is also rarely amazing. Sure, I've lost games because I only had one land and it got Wasted. I've also won games because my opponent didn't have red mana or had to mulligan to find it. With the exception of Enforcer (one reason he's bad), Gro has nothing that doesn't cost one or two mana. It also has twelve one mana library manipulation spells that are excellent at finding land. Most (if not all, depending on build) of its spells can be played with basics, and activating Port is likely to hurt Goblins more than Gro.

One of the most salient points I think I make in the article is that Goblins can keep just about any hand they open with, but Threshold must mulligan into a Lackey answer. That shows just how much of an advantage Goblins has simply going into the match.
Goblin players lose all the time because they didn't mulligan. I've won a number of games because my opponent didn't have enough/the right kind of mana, didn't have enough threats, or didn't do anything relevant until turn three.

Well, I'll tell you what I think. My day 1 list was a pile of shit and that's why I played my real Goblins deck on day two. Anwar, I think my monored list is at least 55% vs UGW - and that's against very good players.
Did you get that number from playtesting?

kirdape3

11-29-2006, 08:58 PM

Citrus-God

11-29-2006, 09:08 PM

Red isn't the answer because Red doesn't answer Siege-Gang Commander and Ringleader, and those are the threats that just up and bury Threshold. They let you get upwards of 4 cards out of each of them and the fact is that Threshold just has stone cold nothing to really match that or stop it.

Actually Red gives you Pyroclasm, and that is important against SCG, and being able to race Ringleaders if they resolve. Did I mention they're a savage topdeck? Also, Red isnt there for Creature removal entirely, as the Burn just adds to the clock, it just works as removal if needed. Against Goblins, they have a ton of low quality creatures, once you get your clock started, you should over run them. Also, a few burn cards can easily make rediculous wins after something big resolves from a Goblin's side of the table.

An example is this deck...

// Lands 17
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Island

// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Fire // Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet

// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Open Slot

This deck can easily take the mirror down as well as Solidarity. This deck design was taken from Wastedlife, and he has won a lot with this deck. He Top 8's a Lotus Tourney, and he won a Mox. I too have ran this version for a long time, and the only flaw I accumulated was the fact I didnt know how to play against Solidarity with this deck. I recently corrected that flaw by learning how to play against them, and I have won more than I expected. This deck also aims at the head a lot, and can win you games when your allowed to lose, or even win before your opponent gets a chance to do something. White has the same tech this deck has available to to deal with Goblins, and it's called Pithing Needle, Stifle, and BEB.

But you can try Mad Zur's Red build, which is

-3 Windswept Heath
-4 Tundra
-2 Mystic Enforcer
-4 Swords to Plowshares

+3 Wooded Foothills
+4 Volcanic Island
+2 Fledgling Dragon
+4 Lightning Bolt

The two decks have two different Post-Board Strategy against Goblins, the White build involve Stifles and BEB, while the Red build uses Pyroclasm. The White build tries to establish Control early, and the Red build uses it's cantrips to cycle through the deck to find Pyroclasms to turn Games around, and attacking with a couple guys. I personally found the Pyroclasm method works very well because it gives you more reach against Goblins.

Citrus-God

11-29-2006, 09:13 PM

Machinus

11-29-2006, 10:43 PM

Did you get that number from playtesting?

If I say that I got it from playtesting, is that really going to change how much weight you give to my opinion? It's what I think about that matchup, and I'm fine with not defending that on this forum.

AnwarA101

11-29-2006, 11:48 PM

Well, I'll tell you what I think. My day 1 list was a pile of shit and that's why I played my real Goblins deck on day two. Anwar, I think my monored list is at least 55% vs UGW - and that's against very good players.

That seems reasonable. Our testing showed it as 50/50 and was presented as such in our article a few months ago. As for your specific version, I would have to say that you have more insight into that than I would, but it doesn't seem far off from our results.

kirdape3

11-30-2006, 04:50 PM

We stopped working on Threshold despite everybody else's success with it for two reasons. The first is that it wasn't really beating anybody with our then current list. We'd win games sometimes, but it either involved a mulligan error on the opponent's part or all the counterspells being drawn or (my favorite) defeating a Xantid Swarm somehow. The second is that I could be playing a deck with 4 Fact or Fictions, 4 Demonic Tutors, 4 AEther Vials, 4 Goblin Lackeys, and 4 Rishadan Ports. All of these are cards that have been banned/restricted from one constructed format or another. Or I could be playing 4 Dark Rituals, 4 Lion's Eye Diamonds, and that set of degenerate plays. Don't get me started on High Tide - otherwise known in formats past as the best Draw-Go deck in the history of mankind, which just so happened to win on turn 3.

Instead, I'd be playing a deck with simply undercosted creatures and some light control elements - and even those creatures are scalable in size if the opponent really wants to. I understand why people play Threshold, because it's capable of winning, but it's a very underpowered deck compared to Goblins, High Tide, Ill-Gotten Gains, even Affinity.

frogboy

11-30-2006, 05:36 PM

I'm actually a little curious if anyone testing Goblins has gone to a 25 land build.

kirdape3

11-30-2006, 05:41 PM

Mad Zur

11-30-2006, 05:54 PM

I'm pretty sure that I was making the right plays. The only choices in the Threshold v IGGy matchup are really whether to hold back mana for counterspells or to commit to the board - and if you're holding back for counterspells what spells do you aim them at.

Red Threshold

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Fire/Ice
3 Pyroclasm

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Mental Note
3 Predict

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
I'm not really sure why that list should lose to Iggy Pop. As far as the combo matchup goes, it can't be much worse than my current white list. In my experience, they haven't been able to pull together a combo that doesn't lose to counterspells by the time the creatures finish them off. Xantid Swarm shouldn't be much of a problem with seven removal spells. I've found the matchup to be very good, but I'll admit I haven't tested it a whole lot, and my testing partners were not Bomholt. In any case, a list like that should still do pretty well against Solidarity, which is more relevant.

But if you prefer to judge decks based on how impressive they are on paper, that's fine. If I have a deck that seems to consistently perform well against those supposedly overpowered decks, I'll play it. It doesn't matter to me that there are no obvious similarities to broken cards.

kirdape3

11-30-2006, 06:05 PM

I also failed to point out that Goblins was by far our best testing deck. Affinity is also very, very good, but Goblins allows for so many silly things to happen in such a compressed time. Our combo decks also were better on the numbers against the projected field than Threshold was. Affinity had the nasty habit of losing to Null Rod and Kataki, Complete Beating, but if those cards aren't present good luck to the opponent.

Eldariel

11-30-2006, 06:05 PM

24, and I understand why you'd want to run 25 entirely. You want to hit 5 on 5 and the deck is actually really mana-hungry in the midgame when you want to be Porting every land that you can't Wasteland and still cast some random guy. Hitting 5 on 5 is important, but surprisingly more is still useful.

I find Ancient Tombs alleviating the mana problems somewhat as a few-of in the additional landslots. I'm personally running 23 with 2 Tombs and it seems to run pretty smoothly, even when Vials and Lackeys are answered. I definately find 22 too few though.

frogboy

11-30-2006, 10:45 PM

22 is awful, and I didn't care for 23. I have 24 and if I started testing again, I think I'd go to 25. I always want to hit my first four drops, and I almost always want the fifth, and yeah, like Kird said, more's useful.

Havn't actually done it, but thought it'd be good food for thought. There's probably some four-of that's marginal utility is less than the 25th land. Any ideas?

I havn't tested Ancient Tomb, but I would hate to have mountain, mountain, Tomb on my Warchief turn. It seems like the pain would be highly relevant, too.

Citrus-God

11-30-2006, 11:51 PM

As for IGGy, I always lose when they play Leyline Turn 0. The reason why is that your creatures are so weak, it's not even a clock anymore. They'll just sit back with so many Ritual effects that, when they're at 5, they'll just play out their whole hand and double Tendrils. I always lost like that, but it rearely happens. I usually end up beating IGGy Pop due to the fact that I'm fast, and I have enough control elements to counter what they need, such as Tutors.

Eldariel

12-01-2006, 06:55 AM

I havn't tested Ancient Tomb, but I would hate to have mountain, mountain, Tomb on my Warchief turn. It seems like the pain would be highly relevant, too.

Yea, but it allows you to cast those Ringleaders and Siege-Gang Commanders earlier. I've found it quite effective, although specifially with Warchief, it's annoying. On the other hand, for example Matron-Pyromancer in one turn is much more doable with Tombs and makes that kinds of early kills easy. Also plays like double Incinerator or such are much easier off Tomb. And you can start casting set-up Matrons earlier with them, especially to get that Siege-Gang for the Lackey (a little-known fact is that Lackey>Matron isn't exactly the scariest play in the game, especially if opponent is going to answer the Lackey the following turn). I'm playing Mox along with it (I feel the deck has enough means to make up for lost cards, and the acceleration makes the Warchief-component of the deck more effective as additional acceleration. Besides, turn 1 Land-Mox-Lackey-Lackey is kinda überbrutal, even if they can answer one, they need to answer the other, and you can generally follow up with next turn Matron or Ringleader for something devastating off the Lackey). But I haven't tested it enough, or seriously enough, to really say 'better' or 'worse' for my experiences, I've just found it to be very effective on many occasions.

Citrus-God

12-12-2006, 10:11 AM

Yea, but it allows you to cast those Ringleaders and Siege-Gang Commanders earlier. I've found it quite effective, although specifially with Warchief, it's annoying. On the other hand, for example Matron-Pyromancer in one turn is much more doable with Tombs and makes that kinds of early kills easy. Also plays like double Incinerator or such are much easier off Tomb. And you can start casting set-up Matrons earlier with them, especially to get that Siege-Gang for the Lackey (a little-known fact is that Lackey>Matron isn't exactly the scariest play in the game, especially if opponent is going to answer the Lackey the following turn). I'm playing Mox along with it (I feel the deck has enough means to make up for lost cards, and the acceleration makes the Warchief-component of the deck more effective as additional acceleration. Besides, turn 1 Land-Mox-Lackey-Lackey is kinda überbrutal, even if they can answer one, they need to answer the other, and you can generally follow up with next turn Matron or Ringleader for something devastating off the Lackey). But I haven't tested it enough, or seriously enough, to really say 'better' or 'worse' for my experiences, I've just found it to be very effective on many occasions.

His right. Your so much better off being more aggressive before Threshhold gets another counter on it. The more time you give Thresh, the more likely you'll lose as Thresh get's those counters really fast. Play them aggressively when Threshold is still trying to make a comeback in the attrition war... god that post was so friggin' late.

Personally I dont like Chrome Mox in this deck, but it works well for a lot of people, and the fact Eldariel knows what good card choices to make.

kirdape3

01-04-2007, 07:15 PM

Part 2 of this series is up: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13464.html

It's pretty much as we tested the matchup to work - Crusade is tough to cast and not even a complete game win when it resolves, and Goblins' sideboard is just better than Threshold's is because Tormod's Crypt invalidates Threshold's strategy and denies it the critical turns before Goblins reacquires the advantage in the late game.

Bardo

01-04-2007, 07:37 PM

Wrong series. ;)

I'll bump the other one, since starting a new thread won't add much.

Citrus-God

01-04-2007, 07:37 PM

So what do you all say? I say Stifle is better than Crusade because it can fight Tormod's Crypt as well as Goblin Triggers.

sammiel

01-04-2007, 09:15 PM

I agree, stifle is what keeps fish in the game against goblins.

Against Goblins, Stifle hits:

Aether Vial: both an activation, or maybe even a critical charge counter

Wasteland: whoops! protect your manabase

Fetchland: whoops, attack their manabase

Goblin Triggers: Matron's tutor, Piledriver's power bonus, Siege Gang's extra dudes, Ringleader's I win the game ability, Incinerator's cycling, Tinkerer to save your needle for a turn, Lackey's ability if you dont have a swords or blast hany

Seeing as how stifle is decent to board in against storm combo too, I think that anyone going to a big event with Threshold should be packing stifles in the board.

*edit*

Although I'm a huge fan of Goblin Tinkerer, I think 4x maindeck is somewhat excessive. The build that I use when we are running the big 3 gauntlet uses 2x Tinkerer, 3x Siege-Gang, and 1x Ib Halfheart. I think Ib likes to tapdance all over Threshold's face, since it makes even your 1/1 chumps trade with threshed gooses and bears. Aside from those changes, my list is identical to Machinus, right down to the manabase. If threshhold and landstill wised up and started packing stifle, or I was expecting to see lots of fish, I would cut some of those fetches for mountains and run the risk of diluting my winleaders.