PDA

View Full Version : [Report] 1st Split w/ Solidarity in AggroControl meta (60 people tournament)



GreenOne
11-29-2006, 08:20 AM
I decide to play solidarity at the tournament even if i had only little sleep and i knew the meta was Aggro-Control filled.
We arrive at 10:00 am, the tournament begins at 11, so there's some food/scouting time. I eat a 2 inches high toast and see that almost every deck is packing Force of Will and Jotun Grunt. Fortunately there are some red decks too.
Prices are good as the number of players reached 60. There will be 6 rounds swiss and Top8.

There was some discussion in the forums about the importance of MD FoW. I decide to play just 3MD, with one in side to wish for, and see if it's worth it.
The Wipe Aways are here for the Meddling Mage problem. They help a lot with Mother of Runes too. I tested 'em a lot and 2 copies are enough to side in, and help greatly in the Thresh matchup.
That's the list I played:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
12 [P2] Island (3)

// Spells
3 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
2 [IN] Opt
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
4 [LG] Reset
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [RAV] Remand
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [TE] Meditate
3 [US] Turnabout
4 [VI] Impulse
2 [SOK] Twincast
2 [OD] Peek

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 2 [SOK] Twincast
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [AL] Force of Will



On the tournament:

1 Round: Monored Burn
G1: he wins the dice roll and goes mountain, fanatic. I put him in goblins and see that with my hand I can win turn 4. I go off turn 5 with a lethal fireblast on the stack.
SB +4 Hydroblast -1 Wish, -1 Opt, -1 Turnabout, -1 Flash of insight.
G2: He starts with a good amount of burn, I can't combo off with 3 lands in play while he got lethal dmg on stack.
G3: I keep a nice hand with no counters but many combo pieces. On turn 2 I peek and see that he has no burn power save a Ball Lightning, 2 Pyroblasts and lands. During his upkeep I cunning wish with him on 2 lands, so that if he counters he cannot play Ball Lightning that turn. He counters it, play land and pass the turn. Next turn he's on 4 lands, plays Ball Lightning, I turnabout and he counters. I'm down on life, but i can go off next turn with no counters on my path.

1-0-0

2 Round: Suicide Black
G1. I keep a nice hand with high tide, brainstorm, meditate, Flash of insight, islands and a fetchland. Island, go. He rituals into duress (I brainstorm in resp) and dark confidant, turn 2 Rotting Giant, turn 3 Rotting Giant. However, he's not able to put cards in his graveyard and attack with his giants (at a certain point he casts carnophage and sacs it to a edict to attack with 'em). I build a position and go off in the 4th turn with a good hand.
SB: -1 force, -1 peek, +2 twincast
G2. He puts a lot of early pressure and a duress that ends the game.
G3. I play land, go. When the turn passes back to me I got 3 cards in hand (ritual into cabal, cabal, carnophage, flashback cabal). However, he's not able to put pressure at all, and i recover easily in like 6-7 turns of draw-go.

2-0-0

3 Round: Accorsi Luca playing RW Goblins
G1: I keep a hand with High tide, Meditate, Turnabout, opt, 3 lands. He starts with Vial, I win on turn 4.
SB: +4 Blasts, -1 remand, -1 Flash of insight, -1 Wish, -1 twincast.
G2: he mulls to 6 and starts with vial. I peek and see no blasts nor pillars, but lot of gobbos. I hydroblast a warchief and combo on turn 5.

3-0-0

4 Round: UGw Gro
G1: He meddling mage on turn 2 naming tide, but he can't put much pressure. I Cunning wish, he doesn't counter and I read a strange dazed feeling in his face as I show him Wipe Away. I bounce the mage one turn before being dead and go off the next one, but i can't get through the counter wall (he counters the tide, I twincast it, he dazes twice and i'm on 2 mana with a turnabout in hand).
SB: +2 twincast, +2 wipe away, -4 Remand,
G2: He beats down fast with a Jotun Grunt, I try to combo off the turn I'm dead. I see a couple of Trickbinds in his hand, I sided out the remands, so I stroke him for 60 with the help of many twincasts (I twincast 3 times a meditate and once a reset).
G3: He doesn't put much pressure in the early game, but i've got no tide. He plays a SoF&I and a Jotun Grunt. During the first of the additional turns. I try to go off in response to grunt's equip, so that can bounce it and win without the help of Stroke. My hand is 2xTide, 2xReset, 2xtwincast, Brain Freeze. I go past the counterwar, freeze myself, twincast 2 times flash of insight for 14, but my meditates are bad, and he's got a Trickbind. I turnabout his lands (he floats), bounce the grunt, pass priority and wait for the combat step. He plays land (damn...I forgot that land!). I just can't combo with trickbind in his hand. I draw the match due to time.

3-1-0

5 Round: Migno playing UBW Hanni Fish
We tested the match a lot. He knows my deck and how I play it. I cannot win this one, too much hate.
G1: He keeps a 1 lander and can't find the second one with his cantrips. I combo off with double Freeze with him on 2 lands and me on 6 islands.
SB: +2 Twincast, +2 Wipe Away, -4 Remand.
G2: He sided in some Katakis (SAVAGE BEATING :)) and some blue cards in place of StP. I die to a Grunt, a Meddling, and a Kataki.
G3: Duress, Meddling mage, stifle, Grunt and counters is just too much. I cannot win this one.

3-1-1

6 Round: Mirage playing Ghostway.
His deck has the same cantrips/counters of threshold, with different creature base: Coiling oracle, Eternal Witness, Wall Of Blossoms, Fleetfoot Panther and Ghostway. The deck is nice. Here's it's thread: http://www.theabyss.biz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21359
G1: He cannot make some pressure, at some point he casts a Witness, I remand, he forces (pitching force) and take the force from the grave. I go off through 3 counters and a daze during the late game. I'm with 5 mana left, a meditate, a brainstorm. I already used a reset and a turnabout. I decide to brainstorm first, revealing twincast, island, turnabout. During the combo I have to Brain Freeze myself. I turnabout his creatures and we're both with no library left, but I skip my turn due to meditate.
SB: +2 twincast, -2 remand
G2: I try to go off the turn he's killing me, but I meditate into nothing. I fizzle and we're 1-1. Time's up and we cannot draw. He concedes the game to me.

4-1-1
I'm 4th. On the Top8.

Top8: Zerbo with UGW Gro
G1: He plays some creatures, I fix my hand into a god one. He counters my tide and I remand it. He counters again my tide next turn but I got 3 of them and win the counterwar.
G2: He keeps a hand with a plains, a forest, a watchwolf, daze, force, counterspell, serum vision. He plays Watchwolf on turn 2, and tundra -> serum vision on turn 3. I combo off with just a couple counters on my path.

Top4: Gibertini With UWB Pikula
I mean, his deck splashes blue only for shadowmage infiltrator. other than that is some sort of Pikula deck tweaked to beat aggro with 12 MD creature removals, jitte and mother of runes.
G1: he plays mother of runes first and second turn, duress on the third turn, I go off like 4 turns later in response to a Tourach.
G2: He starts with a cabal therapy for Peek (???) and procedes to flashback it the next turn. I Brainstorm in response and he miss. I force an hymn to tourach a turn later and go off on turn 5 or 6, can't remember.

Finals: Maccagnani playing STAX ur
I win quite fast in the last match so I see some part of the other semifinals. It's UBW Fish vs STAX... not good matchups.
The winner is STAX, MD: 4xTangle Wire, Trini, Smokestack, Chalice. SB: 3 sphere of resistance, 5 red blasts.
I just cannot win.
He offers me the split as we know each other and it's like 8:30 pm (the tourney started at 11:00 am) and we all want to go home. I accept and thank him. I end up with a price of 2xFoW, 2x Wasteland, 1x Foil Vampiric Tutor.

I found the SB Force of Will not useful at all: never wished for it, never sided it in. However, the maindeck Twincast in the place of it allowed some great plays.
I never wished for Rebuild too, but i guess it could be the MVP in the final.
The Wipe Away are all around great. -1 Brain Freeze for +1 Wipe Away was ok, as everybody was beating with Jotun Grunt there.

Here is the Top8 decklists, for the ones who can read italian:
http://www.theabyss.biz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21501

Props:
- Caffeine, for keeping me awake
- Winston Blue, for keeping me awake
- Bevi, for organizing the whole thing
- The players, for being nice and friendly
- Solidarity, for being amazing
- David Gearhart, for being fucking awesome


Slops:
- 3:30 hours of sleep
- The tournament for being like 2 hours far from Ravenna, and lost in the middle of nowhere, with lots of fog. I mean, the journey to it was something like going to Silent Hill
- Mirage for not Top8ing. His deck was a blast and a new creative idea. Go on with it!
- STAX. Brown deck sucks.

Machinus
11-29-2006, 09:11 AM
This tournament is awesome!!! Congrats on your finish.

Does anyone have more specific Stax lists (from the non-top8)?

Arsenal_Fan
11-29-2006, 10:10 AM
Well, it looks like someone has finally made it to the finals with a Stax deck. Granted most people had dismissed uR Stax because of the difficulty of keeping welder on the board. Congrats on piloting solidarity to the finals. Any other insight into this tournament would shed some light on what the field looked like.

lillelassie
11-29-2006, 11:54 AM
Nice job GreenOne :) Were there any times you felt like you needed the 4'th FoW? were there times you wished a Twincast to be a FoW?

The Sta$$ list looks cool, meditate is such a house in prison decks.
Could anybody translate: pantano and attuament from ITA to ENG plz?

GreenOne
11-29-2006, 12:02 PM
what the field looked like.

From what I could see, I was the only combo deck in the room, excluding reanimator (hey, that's europe!). A good number of red decks (both Goblins and Burn). Some control in the form of LoamTog, Rift and 43Lands.dec. Some random aggro. And many, MANY, aggro control, but little to no Threshold. Graveyard was hated to death.
As I stated above there were a lot of fish/gro variants with MD grunt and Jitte and some black based aggro-control.

However, I'll post the breakdown if I somehow find it.


Were there any times you felt like you needed the 4'th FoW? were there times you wished a Twincast to be a FoW?

The Sta$$ list looks cool, meditate is such a house in prison decks.
Could anybody translate: pantano and attuament from ITA to ENG plz?

Pantano= Bloodstained Mire
Attuament= Attunament (that was a transcribing error)

Once I had a twincast in hand and the opponent casting Meddling. That's the only time I wished it to be a FoW, however, I'm still not sold on 3 MD FoWs. It's something to test a lot to really see the difference. I'll do some testing, but wait for the master to speak (Deep6er). :smile:

Deep6er
11-29-2006, 05:02 PM
Before I get too in depth, I'd like to say that it's true. I am fucking awesome. Anyway, I don't like the idea of 3 Forces. I don't find it all that impressive especially since you wasted a sideboard slot on it anyway. Also, I haven't finished testing Wipe Away quite yet. I found that it's obviously best against the Threshold players you use Meddling Mage as a crutch for beating the combo decks. Those players are usually not ones you should worry terribly about though. Also, why in the flying fuck did you board IN Twincast against sui black? You should be siding out cunning wish to side in Meditate. Also, I don't ever side out Flash, that card is so retarded good. Anyway, sounds like a fun day. Congratulations. Also, you're right, brown decks suck. Stupid brown decks.

GreenOne
11-29-2006, 08:11 PM
I don't like the idea of 3 Forces. I don't find it all that impressive especially since you wasted a sideboard slot on it anyway.
My original thought was something like "many threats come down on turn 3/4 (rule of law, geddon, glowrider...) so this way you are playing 6 MD forces against them and your meditate are better". That was obviously bullshit. I just wanted to test it in a good tournament to prove it. The SB Fow sucks. The thing I'm debating is whether 3 force is better than 4 in the MD. 4 is probably better, but I never tested 3.


Also, I haven't finished testing Wipe Away quite yet. I found that it's obviously best against the Threshold players you use Meddling Mage as a crutch for beating the combo decks. Those players are usually not ones you should worry terribly about though.
I just find that 2 or 3 mana is not such a difference, so that echoing truth is useless. Chain of vapor is good because it allows you to wish and bounce in the same turn. 2 non-artifact combo hosers with the same name are strange to see on the playground. I just found that the "You can't respond" thing is good against decks packing Mom of Runes and sometimes against something like Jitte or lands too. Threshold is slowly dying in the italian meta as other forms of aggro-control are rising, mostly UBW HanniFish. Is it 3 mana such a crutch?



Also, why in the flying fuck did you board IN Twincast against sui black? You should be siding out cunning wish to side in Meditate. Also, I don't ever side out Flash, that card is so retarded good. Anyway, sounds like a fun day. Congratulations. Also, you're right, brown decks suck. Stupid brown decks.

Vs suicide black I found that peek is not great (they're usually boarding nothing except some critters or discard). Force is something like Hymn for 'em (as long as they're not playing Specter). So I just boarded in Twincast to copy their discard spells and help my clock. A double sided Hymn can cripple them like us. I thought of boarding in Meditate, but meditate is the card I wish more for, so what to wish for with the remaining 2 wishes?

Vs red decks i side out Flash because I board out a wish. With 2 wishes left in library I just don't feel like taking the risk of Freezing myself (and usually I just don't have to). Other than that vs red decks (read Aggro) I'm usually forced to go off on turn 4, so that on turn 3 if I have an Impulse/Brainstorm and a Flash in hand but miss a combo piece I cast the dig spell instead of the draw1 one. Am I wrong with that?
Well, once in my life I Wished for a sided out Flash too: I had to discard. :smile:

Deep6er
11-29-2006, 09:15 PM
My original thought was something like "many threats come down on turn 3/4 (rule of law, geddon, glowrider...) so this way you are playing 6 MD forces against them and your meditate are better". That was obviously bullshit. I just wanted to test it in a good tournament to prove it. The SB Fow sucks. The thing I'm debating is whether 3 force is better than 4 in the MD. 4 is probably better, but I never tested 3.

I just find that 2 or 3 mana is not such a difference, so that echoing truth is useless. Chain of vapor is good because it allows you to wish and bounce in the same turn. 2 non-artifact combo hosers with the same name are strange to see on the playground. I just found that the "You can't respond" thing is good against decks packing Mom of Runes and sometimes against something like Jitte or lands too. Threshold is slowly dying in the italian meta as other forms of aggro-control are rising, mostly UBW HanniFish. Is it 3 mana such a crutch?



Vs suicide black I found that peek is not great (they're usually boarding nothing except some critters or discard). Force is something like Hymn for 'em (as long as they're not playing Specter). So I just boarded in Twincast to copy their discard spells and help my clock. A double sided Hymn can cripple them like us. I thought of boarding in Meditate, but meditate is the card I wish more for, so what to wish for with the remaining 2 wishes?

Vs red decks i side out Flash because I board out a wish. With 2 wishes left in library I just don't feel like taking the risk of Freezing myself (and usually I just don't have to). Other than that vs red decks (read Aggro) I'm usually forced to go off on turn 4, so that on turn 3 if I have an Impulse/Brainstorm and a Flash in hand but miss a combo piece I cast the dig spell instead of the draw1 one. Am I wrong with that?
Well, once in my life I Wished for a sided out Flash too: I had to discard. :smile:

Well, one thing to note is the example you gave with Flash. Obviously the correct call is to Impulse/Brainstorm, however CASTING the Flash later in the combo is the important part.

Secondly, Wish is awful against Black decks. Thus, I side it out. Having the fourth Meditate in the main allows you to throw one out in order to refill. Wish into Meditate takes too long. If you MUST Wish, then Wish for bounce because that supplements the 'throw out a meditate' plan.

Anyway, I think you misunderstood me. Meddling Mage is a crutch that some weaker players use to gain an even balance against the combo decks. One of the things I can't stress enough is adaptability. As interesting as I think Wipe Away is, I'm coming to the conclusion that 'can't be countered' is just not that valuable. However, thanks to an amalgamation of data about the Threshold matchup from other players' point of view, I can see how Meddling Mage is incredibly frustrating and why you are adamant about Wipe Away. I'll tell you what, I'll start working on a way to describe adaptability a little better so you can understand me with a little more clarity. I'm currently using it to closely approximate how you should approach the other PLAYER not the DECK. Information about the player is far more valuable than stategic information about the matchup. Do you understand? Knowing the player will give you insight into exactly how YOU should be playing the matchup. Of course this applies in every matchup but none moreso than the Threshold matchup. Hopefully, this shed a little light on how I approach this matchup and you can glean what information you can out of that to use for your own advantage.

revenge_inc
11-29-2006, 10:13 PM
Congrats on your making the finals and for the great tournament rapport.
Thanks for the links to the decklists.

Ok, this will sound über n0ob but the "he sided in Katakis" was sarcasm right? Or am I missing something here?
It seems weird because, if I read your decklist correctly, you have no artifacts. If this is the case, then why would he side it in? Did he want more dudes and Kataki was the best he could board in? I have yet to play, or see in action a solidarity deck so I have somewhat of an excuse (and HanniFish can vary quite a bit...)

GreenOne
11-30-2006, 08:18 AM
Anyway, I think you misunderstood me. Meddling Mage is a crutch that some weaker players use to gain an even balance against the combo decks. One of the things I can't stress enough is adaptability. As interesting as I think Wipe Away is, I'm coming to the conclusion that 'can't be countered' is just not that valuable. However, thanks to an amalgamation of data about the Threshold matchup from other players' point of view, I can see how Meddling Mage is incredibly frustrating and why you are adamant about Wipe Away. I'll tell you what, I'll start working on a way to describe adaptability a little better so you can understand me with a little more clarity. I'm currently using it to closely approximate how you should approach the other PLAYER not the DECK. Information about the player is far more valuable than stategic information about the matchup. Do you understand? Knowing the player will give you insight into exactly how YOU should be playing the matchup. Of course this applies in every matchup but none moreso than the Threshold matchup. Hopefully, this shed a little light on how I approach this matchup and you can glean what information you can out of that to use for your own advantage.

I think I'm understanding. Vs the Burn deck G2 I played Cunning Wish during his upkeep to test him on the way he uses his blasts. Peek is great to see what kind of hands he's keeping and how he's playing it. This is something about what you said time ago about not testing the Thresh and mirror matchups, isn't it? Am I on the right way?

However, maybe I'm wrong on the Wipe Away thing, maybe playing 2 copies is not that good. I'm just saying that IMO Wipe Away > E.Truth in term of raw power and versatility, so why don't just play it in its place?


Ok, this will sound über n0ob but the "he sided in Katakis" was sarcasm right? Or am I missing something here?
It seems weird because, if I read your decklist correctly, you have no artifacts. If this is the case, then why would he side it in? Did he want more dudes and Kataki was the best he could board in?

He had no sideboard against combo (it's already a great matchup), so he just boarded in some critters and some pithable cards in place of Swords to plowshares.

Citrus-God
12-01-2006, 03:16 AM
I'm currently using it to closely approximate how you should approach the other PLAYER not the DECK. Information about the player is far more valuable than stategic information about the matchup. Do you understand? Knowing the player will give you insight into exactly how YOU should be playing the matchup. Of course this applies in every matchup but none moreso than the Threshold matchup. Hopefully, this shed a little light on how I approach this matchup and you can glean what information you can out of that to use for your own advantage.

Are you a poker player? It seems that you have applied the information from the other Gro player's perspective in the match-up and their view on how they play against you, and used it against them. Please give us an insight and examples of this coming into play, and how you did it. I'm very interested in knowing about this, as I really want to start playing Solidarity again.

A lot of good players I have met plays differently in each round two different ways; one on what deck they play, and another on how they identify their opponents. They usually apply this concept in the mirror or bad match-ups, as everything else is just played the same way with favorable match-ups.

hi-val
12-01-2006, 04:27 PM
Great report and great read! You're right, Mirage's deck sounds really neat. I bet it would like Momentary Blink a lot!

Whit3 Ghost
12-01-2006, 06:47 PM
Just what Gearhart needs, another boost to his ego.

Citrus-God
12-01-2006, 08:19 PM
Just what Gearhart needs, another boost to his ego.

Yeah... problem is, against good Solidarity players, I always lose... I just want advice really.

Deep6er
12-02-2006, 04:59 PM
Are you a poker player? It seems that you have applied the information from the other Gro player's perspective in the match-up and their view on how they play against you, and used it against them. Please give us an insight and examples of this coming into play, and how you did it. I'm very interested in knowing about this, as I really want to start playing Solidarity again.

A lot of good players I have met plays differently in each round two different ways; one on what deck they play, and another on how they identify their opponents. They usually apply this concept in the mirror or bad match-ups, as everything else is just played the same way with favorable match-ups.

I play poker occassionally. In reality, playing your opponent is what a lot of the people who do WELL with Solidarity do. Adaptability and versatility are both one of the key points of playing the deck well. Experience has a lot to do with it though. At this point, I have so much experience with the deck, that everything is instinctual, which allows me to auto-pilot the easy matchups and think two or three turns in advance in the hard ones. That allows me to adapt to their strategy much faster and formulate plans accordingly.

Volt
12-02-2006, 05:36 PM
I play poker occassionally. In reality, playing your opponent is what a lot of the people who do WELL with Solidarity do. Adaptability and versatility are both one of the key points of playing the deck well. Experience has a lot to do with it though. At this point, I have so much experience with the deck, that everything is instinctual, which allows me to auto-pilot the easy matchups and think two or three turns in advance in the hard ones. That allows me to adapt to their strategy much faster and formulate plans accordingly.

Goddamn, you are fucking AWESOME.

calosso
12-02-2006, 06:45 PM
Just what Gearhart needs, another boost to his ego.

Agreed!

Congrats on your finish.

Citrus-God
12-03-2006, 02:23 AM
I play poker occassionally. In reality, playing your opponent is what a lot of the people who do WELL with Solidarity do. Adaptability and versatility are both one of the key points of playing the deck well. Experience has a lot to do with it though. At this point, I have so much experience with the deck, that everything is instinctual, which allows me to auto-pilot the easy matchups and think two or three turns in advance in the hard ones. That allows me to adapt to their strategy much faster and formulate plans accordingly.

Thanks,

Yeah, I guess I need to start practicing Solidarity now. I was thinking of playing this deck for awhile, and I really like Storm decks. I'm still trying to get TES right, but I also want to play this deck right as well.