[Deck] Big Friendly Giant + [PRIMER] Modern WW

[urdjur]

The last month, I have been on a fascinating white weenie odyssey! I have looked at Angel Stompy (yes, all 54 pages of the Source thread, among others), WWW in countless variants (here and elsewhere - Eldariel's work mostly), and even the WW equip decks of Standard. I have tested, calculated and debated. Tonight I will summarize and unveil the mysteries of my findings of modern white weenie tricks, in the form of a fully explained revamped deck list - the fruit of my efforts - for you to roll your eyes at.

Big Friendly Giant (WWW variant on steroids by Urdjur, current as of December 1)

LANDS (19)
14 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
1 Flagstones of Trokair

CREATURES (23)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Silver Knight
4 Serra Avenger
3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Leonin Shikari
3 True Believer
2 Jötun Grunt

OTHER SPELLS (18)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abolish
4 Steelshaper's gift
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Bonesplitter
1 Specter's Shroud

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Armageddon
2 Abolish
1 True Believer
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Maze of Ith
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Manriki-Gusari

There are many synergies in this deck, and I think the best way to get an overview is to go over them card by card. That way, you can also read this deck presentation as a tutorial to white weenie's "greatest tricks", if you're unfamiliar with them. Sit back, relax and enjoy the reading!

Plains: I have come to believe that simple is better in this case. Mox or other fancy stuff doesn't work any better here than in Vial Goblins. Synergy with Abolish.

Wasteland: A key concept against control and aggro-control (and multicolored decks, non-basic decks - most decks really) is a wasteland engine with wayfarer and eventually recursion of the wastelands with Jötun Grunt. Against the few decks without good targets, the colorless mana help finance 13 of the main deck cards.

Rishadan Port: Read the posts below for an indepth discussion why this was added. In short, 3 wastes + 1 port is simply better with Wayfarer than 4 wastes.

Flagstones of Trokair: It's not that important, but not playing one is sub-optimal. Wayfarer it in, especially if you expect Armageddon or if you're gonna geddon yourself (free post-geddon plains!)

Mother of Runes: I think this is the best 1 cc creature printed yet. Saves any creature including herself for pure card advantage, can make creatures unblockable and is probably the best blocker in the game. You can tap her when damage is already on the stack! With a Bonesplitter, she even kills mongoose and lives to tell the tale.

Silver Knight: Maindeck Goblins hate, that is also Threshold hate with Bonesplitter (kill werebear and survive). First strike is also huge with equipment and Leonin Shikari since you can use Bonesplitter twice: first with the knight's first strike damage and then with a "normal" creature (both when attacking and blocking).

Serra Avenger: The synergy with Vial is good for a turn three play, but having so many 2 cc drops is even more important to make this vengeful angel shine consistently in a low land build. Stalling with the wayfarer/wasteland engine for a few turns also makes Serra immediately playable when you drop that second plains on turn 4. The bread and butter threat of the deck.

Weathered Wayfarer: In addition to the wasteland engine, you can consistently bring in sideboard silver bullets (maze, boseiju) and it can enable you to keep a strong 1 land hand, which means less mulligans. The fact that it mixes the deck after Grunt recursion is also great. However, its weakness as a threat and almost guaranteed self-redundancy means 3 in the main, and 1 in the board for when first turn wayfarer is the best play.

Leonin Shikari: The lionesse does three things in this deck - a) makes all your creatures untargetable with Lightning Greaves, b) abuses the first strike equipment benefits of Silver Knight, and c) gives your very equipment "evasion" as long as ONE of your creatures get through. The self-redundancy makes it a 3-of.

True Believer: This is a meta choice against a broad meta (occasional burn, duresses and whatnot) where IGGy Pop is the most important combo match-up. You can Vial this out in response to Tendrils - works just like Guilded Light. It's also hard to get rid of with mother and/or greaves, forcing combo players in general to play skillfully. Again, self-redundancy of a static ability makes this a 3-of too, but there's an extra in the sideboard when getting one on the draw is all that matters.

Jötun Grunt: This is probably the most important card in the deck, and its namesake. To be able to run Grunt, you need three things:
*A reliable way to play him when he is actually a threat (turn 3-4 against Threshold for instance): Aether Vial main deck, Boseiju after board. Also as a surprise blocker with Vial.
*A way to ensure that he stays in play: Greaves, mother, feeding through wasteland engine (consider opponents graveyard also) and the 10 non-permanents in the deck
*A way to make the most of him while he lasts: Haste from Greaves, not to mention a Jitte on this guy while the fun lasts, recursion of anything useful such as wastelands, destroyed equipment, StP, Abolish, Steelshaper's Gift etc.
Even so, I can only support 2 main deck if I'm not playing against a "pile producer". If I am, there's a third in the board. Grunt will usually stay in play for 2 upkeeps, meaning 3 attacks if hasted. Between the wasteland engine and equipment, this is really the ultimate Threshold hate card, and can be a problem for combo decks and 43land too.

Aether Vial: Contrary to many other WWW builds, you play threats that are actually worth countering. Even so, Vial has synergy with wayfarer on its own for keeping down lands on the board. As for speed, you basically sacrifice turn 1 aggression, break even on turn 2, and have a spree on turn 3+. Crazy plays like True Believer in response to storm combo, Serra Avenger on turn 3, surprise blocking with Grunt (or just making your opponent believe that you can) is extra icing on the aether cake.

Swords to Plowshares: Best creature removal in the game and feeds, or is recurred with, Grunt.

Abolish: Someone described this as the closest thing white has to Force of Will, and I agree. The synergy with wayfarer is nice, as is sending 3 cards to the grave for Grunt to feed on. It's included against main deck aggro hate like Worship, Pariah, Moat, Scepter/Chant etc. and finds a useful target against most decks, or can send redundant Vials to the grave to feed Jotun if nothing else. More in the board, of course.

Steelshaper's Gift: Five (5) effective Jittes. Need I say more? I'll do it anyway. Grunt food that recurs. Mixes the deck after Grunt recursion. Never a dead card thanks to other excellent targets for additional gifts (see below). As a tutor, Steelshaper's Gift is the most powerful there is - one mana and card in hand! It's the least versatile though, which means that its usefulness is dependant on the most useful piece of equipment. This means Umezawa's Jitte, that just happens to be Legendary, making it an even stronger target for a tutor toolbox as compared to playing multiple copies of it. Indeed, Jitte was a viable Enlightened Tutor target in slower WWW builds, that had additional versatility in cards like Seal of Cleansing and Pariah. Here, I have opted for speed and worked around the versatility loss with other "quick fixes" like Abolish, untargetable untargetability (True Believer + Greaves/Mother) and a well rounded equipment toolbox.

Umezawa's Jitte: If your opponent plays creatures, you will very quickly get the upper hand if you attack and get through, don't get through, block etc. If your opponent does not, it "just" reads four extra damage or life each turn. Make that eight if you can abuse first strike with shikari, though this is quite mana intensive. Jitte is also good with vigilance (get counters on both attack and block) and evasion (send that damage to the dome). Indeed, turn 3 vialed angel with turn 4 jitte equip is almost a certain win if your opponent can't handle it the next few turns.

Lightning Greaves: There are four strong reasons to have this as a Gift target - a) untargetability for all your creatures with Leonin Shikari, b) protect mother of runes so that she can protect others, c) make up for the "one turn delay" of vial, and d) make the most of Jötun Grunt. Thus, you should really only tutor for greaves when it can effect one of these four plays.

Bonesplitter: I'm not recommending you tutor this just to get some extra early damage in - you're often better off tutoring for Jitte later. Its main use is to get card advantage by killing in combat when Silver Knight and Mother of Runes aren't strong enough themselves. This is mainly relevant against threshold - axe mom blocks and kills mongoose and lives, axe knight trades with werebear and lives. And you can save your StP for mystic enforcers or troublesome magi. However, you should always consider Bonesplitter rather than Jitte if you have both Knight and Shikari in play simultaneously with little mana available. 4 extra damage per turn two mana quicker than you can start using Jitte often favors Bonesplitter for pure aggression, depending on board position.

Specter's Shroud: Another recent improvement to the deck, this actually replaces a Mask of Memory in the original version (see below for an in-depth discussion). The mask was rarely a tutor target, and the card draw not necessary, so this gem took its place. It makes the Gift toolbox useful against combo too, and is at worst a "bad bonesplitter" for one mana more and one power less with an annoying side-effect. Produces food for Grunt to boot.

SIDEBOARD

Chalice of the Void: Just dropping this at 0 helps certain combo match-ups. Following up turn 1 Vial with turn 2 Chalice @1 wrecks many decks in the format. Even if you can't play Vial turn 1, your most important threats cost 2, so you can play them anyway. Chalice @2 shuts down the Loam engine and some other stuff, and you can play around it with Vial. It's a strong sideboard card, especially against combo, but make sure that you only sideboard it in games where the opponent suffers more from it than you. Against most non-combo/non-engine decks, there are better choices.

Armageddon: A very broad sideboard card against Solidariy, threshold, control etc. You clearly have the upper hand post-geddon against most decks with Vial and Flagstones, plus great staying power in your threats. Boarding this against 43land is actually not such a good idea though. The Chalice @2 lock and Grunt (and some more Abolish) is better.

Abolish, True Believer, Weathered Wayfarer, Jötun Grunt: More of the same for match-up tweaking. See above.

Maze of Ith: A wayfarer silver bullet. Keep fatties away or nasty combat effects from resolving.

Boseiju, Who Shelters All: When you sideboard against permission, you want to make sure your important cards actually resolve. You don't want a FoWed Armageddon after saving up for that 4 mana investment, right? If you can Abolish the opponent's Worship, good for you, but what if it's countered? Hard cast it off Boseiju, just to be sure. Fits reliably into the wayfarer engine.

Manriki-Gusari: Yes, this is really narrow, but Jitte and SoFI is really strong and popular, and this is the best sideboard against it. Bring it in against Faerie Stompy to be sure, and back it up with Boseiju! It fits right in the Steelshaper's Gift toolbox. If you're up against a Jitte deck, don't count on keeping your own Jitte in play. The Legendary fragility makes your other pieces superior in this case, so go ahead and use a drawn Jitte as Jitte-removal, and tutor for Manriki-Gusari at your earliest convenience.

Well, there it is. You're welcome to try it out, and I think you'll be quite successful with it - it's a fairly straightforward deck to play if you understand the synergies. Hope you enjoyed the read, and if you got this far - thank you for your attention.

[Citrus-God]

I dont like Weathered Weatfarer and True Believer in this deck. I think you need some Isamarus and Soltari Priests.

[sammiel]

If you are going to play white weenie, play angel stompy. Enlightened Tutor is generally better than Steelshaper's Gift, since it can pick up things like parallax wave.

[Finn]

If you are going to play white weenie, play angel stompy. Enlightened Tutor is generally better than Steelshaper's Gift, since it can pick up things like parallax wave.

Right! For all those Parallax Waves he has in the deck. I have played this strategy in the past and really liked it. Come to think of it, I am not sure why I stopped.

I would bet that you still have some issues with storm combo though. Consider Glowrider.

[Mirrislegend]

-2 Steelshapers Gift
+2 Jitte

Other than that, all I see is settling your lands, specifically the fetch/ruins/basics configuration

[urdjur]

@Anti~American4621: Well, I can tell you I love playing wayfarer in wayfarer white weenie, but to each his own. True Believer can easily be replaced if something else fits your meta better. The untargetability against red and evasion of Soltari Priest is nice, but the deck has many other ways of getting untargetability and evasion. It would be a good replacement for True Believer for those finding him less-than-useful in their meta. Oh, and I definetely do not need Isamarus.

@sammiel: I've tried Angel Stompy A LOT, and it has some issues. This deck is just as good as AS against Vial Goblins, but significantly better against Threshold, any blue-ish aggro-control, 43Land and storm combo. These are the match-ups that matter to me. There may very well be match-ups where Angel Stompy is better than this deck, but I haven't played them yet. I'm not saying this to sound cocky or disrespect the creators of Angel Stompy - on the contrary. I could not have created this deck without the teachings and experience I gathered from AS. But decks must evolve to stay competitive, and this deck is currently a pretty strong incarnation of the white weenie archetype.

@Finn: You would be right, I still have issues with storm combo, and with combo in general. If you see lots of combo in your meta, don't play white weenie. If you do play white weenie though, I think this is stronger than average against combo due to MD True Believer and graveyard hate, and SB Chalice of the Void. I tried Glowrider over True Believer in previous builds. Glowrider is generally the stronger choice against combo. However, 3 cc is a bit much for a main deck anti-combo choice, since I can't reliably play it in time. The possibility for vialing out True Believer in response makes vial + true believer stronger against IGGy Pop (specifically) than Glowrider on its own, but it's a weaker choice against Solidarity. I suppose you could put Glowrider in the sideboard if you see lots of combo, but it doesn't have very good synergy with the deck. I've never even seen a Solidarity deck in my local Legacy meta, but if it's a frequent MU for you, consider 6 full slots in the sideboard with 4 Angel's Grace and 2 Gaea's Blessing. I learned this awesome tech against Solidarity from Eldariel. You will beat them about 90% of the time as long as you have Grace when they go off.

@Mirrislegend: What is your rationale for more Jittes instead of Gifts? Fear that the first will be destroyed? Remember it can be recurred with Jötun Grunt and fetched with another Gift, which just plays better than running redundant legends. Besides, this is not an "equipment" deck as such - I can manage without the Jitte, I'd just rather not.

On the lands - please be more specific. I've tried mostly any configuration you can think of. 4 flagstones, 3 flagstones, ghost quarters to use on flagstones to avoid tempo loss, vesuva to emulate flagstones for more deck thinning, traditonal fetchlands, chrome mox, the odd fetchable city of traitors/ancient tomb, karakas for use with legends, main deck maze of ith, fetchable mishra's factory and anywhere from 6 to 15 plains. This configuration is the best I have found yet. Tell me what you had in mind, and I can tell you if it's like something I've already tried and why I decided against it.

I hope I will soon get the opportunity to try this out at a local tournament, and invite others to try it out as well. It's very cheap to assemble, and most already have wasteland and a jitte, making Avenger the only moderately expensive card.

[Zilla]

Seems like a pretty decent concept to me. I'd kind of like to see Ports added into the mix to bolster the mana denial strategy, but you're already kind of low on the white mana count.

I also worry a little bit about the number of 2 and 3-ofs considering your relative lack of a draw engine. You have Mask of Memory, but that's it. This means poor consistency in drawing the threats you really need when you need them. I'm talking specifically about cards like True Believer, where you need them early (and probably in multiples) for them to be truly effective against combo. Same goes for Grunt against graveyard-based decks.

I'm also a little bit surprised that the deck has equal game against Goblins to Angel Stompy, and I'm trying to figure out how this is so. You have far fewer answers to a first turn Lackey, which is pretty significant. You have no Parallax Wave to prevent lategame stalemates. You have no Angel as an "I win button". You have more ways to get Jitte on the table early, which is certainly a game-winner in that matchup, but if they're playing Jittes of their own, they become virtual Disenchants against you, which then requires you to find one of your two Grunts and a Steelshaper's Gift to get it back. This seems rather inconsistent and slow.

I'm not calling you a liar, so please don't take it as such; I'd just like more details about this matchup.

Another thing I worry about is that with this lower mana curve, you become much more succeptible to Chalice (particularly set at 2), with no ways besides Abolish to get rid of it. I suppose it might not be so bad since you can play around it a bit with Vial, but I don't know if I'd want to rely on that.

I also foresee the deck having issues with mass removal like Deed and Wrath of God. Unlike Angel Stompy, you don't have Wave to protect you from these kinds of threats, and without the high equipment count it seems as though it would be harder to play the "resolve one large threat, make them answer, it, play another" strategy that Angel Stompy does against board control decks.

All that said, as the creator of Angel Stompy, I agree with you that decks need to evolve with the metagame, and with a significantly higher emphasis on combo decks now, Angel Stompy isn't necessarily the optimal build for a lot of modern metagames. In fact, I find it regrettable that people feel the need to immediately compare any white weenie deck to Angel Stompy, because I don't really think of it as white weenie in the first place; white weenie is about overwhelming your opponent with a steady stream of low-cost threats. Angel Stompy is more about putting pressure on with a single larger threat and protecting it or replacing it when it gets answered.

This is a very different deck with a different emphasis in strategy and is certainly going to have different strengths and weaknesses than Angel Stompy. I think people should stop trying to frame their opinions of the deck in those terms.

I'm interested in hearing more in-depth matchup analyses, when you get the time. Oh, and welcome to The Source.

[urdjur]

Nice of you to stop by Godzilla :) You bring up several important questions:

Ports: As you say, I can't cut any white sources. I know 3 wastelands works almost as well as 4 considering wayfarer/grunt engine, and I haven't actually tried a singleton fetchable Port in that slot. An intriguing idea that might just strengthen the combo MU. You think I should try it?

Inconsistency of 2- and 3-ofs: If certain match-ups depended on one single card, this would be a problem. For an Angel Stompy parallel, consider the 2 chrome mox and 4 Ancient Tombs that most lists had. Six sources of acceleration were needed, but you didn't need those two moxen specifically, and running a full set of 4 was sub-optimal for the deck. The "static effect bears" and grunt in this deck share that same feature.

I'm not dependent on specifically resolving Jötun Grunt against threshold, but it's too good an option not to bring in a third grunt in games 2 and 3. I also have mom and knight with bonesplitter, uncounterable threats from vial, and other edges against threshold. Jötun Grunt can also back True Believer up against combo, but I really need the 4th believer in those rare combo match-ups. The chance of getting a 4-of in your starting hand is 40%, and only 32% for a 3-of. OTOH, if you draw 15 cards in the game total, the chance of getting 2 of a 4-of is about 20% higher than getting 2 of a 3-of. So you need to consider how badly you suffer from not having believer in hand when it counts, and how badly you suffer from effectively running Grizzly Bears in the deck, and multiply that badness with how often the problem comes up.

Goblins MU: I haven't done any scientific comparison between AS and BFG against this MU. I simply noted that I had an easy time beating them with both decks. And I've never played a goblins deck with Jitte, so who knows? I think at some point I just settled for "good enough" against this match-up and never really thought about it. I'll keep an eye out for Jitte Goblins and report back if it should turn out to be a catastrophe.

Chalice: Vial and Abolish plus the division between 1cc (weenies, steelshaper, bonesplitter) and 2cc (the fat) threats seems more than enough considering how often I run into it. I even run it myself in the board. It's a hassle to play around though, so I only bring it in where it has true wrecking potential.

Wrath of God: You're right, this is a problem. I can often put 1-2 equipment pieces on the board before they have wrath mana, but I think not overextending against these decks is the most important factor. That, and keeping them of double white with the wayfarer engine.

[Cavius The Great]

Have you considered Cursed Scroll? Godzilla suggested a draw engine why not use Cursed Scroll in place of that.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Ok, rule number 1; when someone invests this much time and energy into a deck, don't respond with "you should play X, I have nothing worthwhile to say". It's insulting and it makes you look ridiculous.

Wrath of God and Sweepers; Wasteland and threat management are of course important, but I think Port might serve you well, especially against MWC. Also, it may be janky, but as a SB option Planar Guide may be worth considering.

Have you thought about Specter's Shroud at all, as a SB option against combo?

Also, it seems like 3 Grunt/3 Avenger might be a better configuration than 2/4. Both have potential drawbacks that can either be irrelevant or an advantage. But that might depend on your meta-game. Going into GP:Colombus, if I was playing this, I think I'd prefer 3/3.

[Iranon]

I would probably run 2 Jittes, 3 Tutors. I definitely like your Gifts and the small toolbox, and your reasoning is sound. However, Jitte is simply too powerful not to have a spare, despite the possible recursion (which I wouldn't want to rely on to be honest). The chance of drawing both and that actually being a bad thing are fairly small compared to the chance of seeing your only Jitte rusting in the yard and missing it badly.

I don't think you can do much to remedy the weakness to board control decks in a satisfying manner; fortunately that does not appear all that significant at the moment. Congratulations for a deck that seems to run a fine balance between having a strong independent gameplan and hating on the current cream of the crop. I can definitely see the appeal in the current metagame.

p.s.: Nice opening post. The in-depth card choice explanations make giving feedback a lot more pleasant.

[urdjur]

@Cavius The Great: The activation cost of CS is steep for a main deck that goes up to 2 cc. And I think I have all the draw I need. One should really look at Steelshaper's Gift as a "draw one" spell like Brainstorm or Serum Visions, rather than a tutor like Enlightened Tutor. You get to sculpt your hand from a small selection of cards for something that will serve you better, at no loss of tempo or card advantage, and with free deckthinning included - the hallmarks of a good draw spell. And weathered wayfarer is more than a draw engine - it's a tutor engine. It's like a freakin' reusable Crop Rotation with card advantage instead of disadvantage on a 1/1 body that comes out on turn one! I'd like to ask WotC R&D how that is even remotely balanced? Anyway, back to topic.

There is also Mask of Memory - truly a draw engine - incidentally fetchable with Gift. One should also consider how this deck plays. It doesn't have the acceleration and high cc threats of Angel Stompy, or the 1 cc hoard of WWW. It puts lots of power and toughness on the board, but in a calm and orderly fashion, by playing a steady flow of medium sized threats: not a fast horde of weenies or tons of acceleration and a quick fattie. The low land also means that I draw threat, acceleration or removal 3 cards out of 4, and I can use my mana on abilities like equip and wayfarer. All this adds up to cards in hand to play even in the mid-late game. Yet another reason not to play Cursed Scroll.

@SpatulaOfTheAges: First off, thanks for backing me up :) I agree with your "rule number 1", but I didn't think it was my place to spell it out so clearly as a new member of the forum. Back to topic:
*Rishadan Port. I'm updating the list with this one. Both against WoG, combo, the fact that it can hit basics, hoses 43land much more than waste... 3/1 Wasteland+Port simply must be stronger than four wastes.
*Planar Guide. I'd have to run three in the board to make it consistent, and with the numbers of WoG I see in my meta it's just not worth it.
*Specter's Shroud. Ah, yes... I remember seeing this a while back and an evil grin spreading across my face. I haven't actually tried it myself, but I read about other peoples experiences with the card, and they seemed quite mixed. I wonder if it's quick enough to have an impact at combo, but the fact that my entire toolbox is pretty useless against combo at present means I should really try to fit it, since it would effectively make all four Gifts useful in combo games 2-3. Any suggestions on what to cut in the Sideboard in favor of it? Perhaps making Chalice a 3-of?
*Avenger/Grunt split. I can honestly tell you that I have never once had any problems with running 4 Serra Avenger. I have tons of stuff to do with my mana turn 1-3 anyway. I have even played 3 angels in games, no sweat. I'd be happy to play four of them in a game, if that would happen. Grunt on the other hand is impossible to play two of in one game against a non-pile producer. Against such an opponent, I can usually manage two upkeeps if I play him turn 4 (remember that one graveyard must have been fed 4 cards by the second upkeep for him to survive). By then, we both have fewer spells to play in hand and the opponent is reluctant to fill the grave, so I'm lucky if I could play a second grunt turn 8, at which point the game should be over anyway. Against threshold, I can play him on turn 3. Holding back on the grave really isn't an option for threshold, so out comes another one on turn 6, no sweat. Threshold games also tend to go on longer (enabling me to get a second grunt and make him do his thing), since we're matching power for power and counters and removal fly about briskly.

@Iranon: Thanks for the kudos. Going 3 Gifts and 2 Jitte is probably best if you see lots of jitte. Jitte is a house against aggro, and this deck is no exception. The worst time to have Jitte rusting in your graveyard, as you put it, is when your opponent's Jitte sits all nice and shiny on the board. This also turns the Legendary status to a bonus, as you can tutor one Jitte for destruction and another to play, without having to recur in between. To me, planning that it's going to be destroyed seems like wasting a slot on a pro-active counter measure that may or may not be relevant, while weakning possibilities to make game changing "mini-combos" like greaves+shikari. I have other useful equipment pieces, and jitte isn't that important. And there's Grunt recursion - clearly not the best engine in the world, but occasionally very useful. It's good to have many contingency plans, but not at all cost.

[rsaunder]

I would bet that you still have some issues with storm combo though. Consider Glowrider.As much as glowrider would rock here, I'd have to say it should be a board answer, if anything. With the steelshaper's gift engine he's running, it seems like it would have a good chance to be detremental to his gameplan, especially running on that low land count. I wish land tax and scroll rack were in for decks like this. *sighs*

Also, there's a wee-bit of dyssinergy (sp?) between grunt and true believer as I see it. I know, I know, it's minor, but have you ever had a problem with this?

EDIT: Also, great first post. Keep it up!

[urdjur]

@rsaunder: I don't see the word "target" anywhere in Jötun Grunts upkeep cost, if that's what you're referring to. But I agree, it would be a problem if i couldn't target my own graveyard with True Believer in play. I really hope I haven't misunderstood this :cry:

EDIT: On Specter's Shroud. Wow. I think I totally underestimated this card. I'm gonna replace Mask of Memory with this one in the main deck. Let's take a closer look at it:
*Specter's Shroud is a tutor target. Mask of Memory is not. Mask of Memory is a nice card that I enjoy top-decking and playing. It makes my hand bigger and increases my options. But I hardly ever tutor for it. Specter's Shroud, otoh, is a solution to certain problems, and thus a tutor target. It's useful in a way that mask isn't.
*Specter's Shroud is aggressive. At worst, this is a bad Bonesplitter - one mana more and one power less. It also hurts the opponent's ability to defend himself and find answers to your threats. Mask enables you to find answers against the opponent's threats, or answers to his answers, but since you're normally the aggressive deck, this shouldn't be your top priority.
*Specter's Shroud is good against combo. It's not a very strong option, but it is useful and makes all the Gifts useful too. That's five rather useful sources where previously you had none. I. LOVE. THAT.
*Specter's Shroud fill a similar role to Mask of Memory. Same cc, same equip cost, both trigger on CD to player, and both produce the same amount of food for Jötun Grunt. It's a very clean swap.

Kudos to Spatula of the Ages for the suggestion :cool:

[rsaunder]

@rsaunder: I don't see the word "target" anywhere in Jötun Grunts upkeep cost, if that's what you're referring to. But I agree, it would be a problem if i couldn't target my own graveyard with True Believer in play. I really hope I haven't misunderstood this :cry:Well, I'm notoriously bad with things like this, but by my understanding, you would indeed have to target the opponent's graveyard, even with the word "any".

I could very well be wrong, though, so I'd check it out with a judge or someone whose more intimate with the rules than myself.

[Eldariel]

Well, I'm notoriously bad with things like this, but by my understanding, you would indeed have to target the opponent's graveyard, even with the word "any".

I could very well be wrong, though, so I'd check it out with a judge or someone whose more intimate with the rules than myself.

No. You only target if the words 'target' appear on the card, it's really that simple. Any other wording>no targeting. That's kinda bad news for keeping the Grunt alive actually, since if opponent removes cards in response to the activation, you still got to remove some cards or have the Grunt die.

[urdjur]

Yeah, I doubled checked with my local forum just to be sure and they confirmed Eldariel's position. I'm kinda happy it works that way, since the true believer anti-synergy would otherwise be a more frequent issue to keeping the big friendly giant alive. Sure, if someone's running convenient graveyard hate main deck like Withered Wretch, l think I'll have trouble keeping Grunt alive. But it's not a big issue. I can't imagine someone boarding in, say, Crypt against me just to make Grunt die faster... seems pretty meh.

[Lego]

Could you tell us why you decided against Karakas? Is it just a Wasteland issue? I'm not sure in this meta how useful it is, but I see the occasional person playing Reanimator, and it's nice to get rid of that Akroma. I can see why Maze of Ith is out, because not producing mana = bad, but I feel like the ability to beat Reanimator is worth the small vulnerability to Wasteland. I personally used to run 1 Maze of Ith and 1 Mishra's Factory, but I ran 22 lands.

I'm not sure about 4 Steelshaper's Gift. I personally played Enlightened Tutor because it grabbed my maindeck Pithing Needle, but I only played 2 of them, allowing me to play a couple more pieces of equipment. I also played a single Pariah because I'm a cool kid.

[urdjur]

@Lego Army Man: It's a wasteland issue. I tried it out in early testing when I was fooling around with Isamaru and 8.5-tails (waaaay to mana intensive). I'd have to update myself on the prevalence of Reanimator in my meta to be sure. If you're running say 3 Isamaru, I'd say Karaks is worth it on its own for cool combat tricks and protection. If not, I'd say wastability outweighs reanimator considering I've yet to play it, but I'll have to ask around more with the local guys :wink:

You'll have problems running a full playset of Enlightened Tutor in an aggressive deck, because of the card disadvantage. Not so with Gift, though. So far I'm loving the consistency of getting a needed Jitte or Greaves, but it feels kinda meh when you get two equipment pieces and two gifts in your starting hand... That's usually a mulligan though - not because of "too much equipment" or something like that, but because of the likely lack of enough threats or mana in the other three slots. Still, spending 8 slots on equipment feels just right with 3 Leonin Shikari. One could even go up to 9 slots, but I wouldn't know what to cut in favor of it.

[Bane of the Living]

Consider adding Crusade to the sideboard. With vial out you can continually pump out guys and use your mana to cast Crusade, getting around Pyroclasms in sideboards and giving you a better matchup against gobs and thresh for having larger creatures.

[urdjur]

Many people just say "meh don't play Crusade" when the card comes up. I think writing it off by default is a mistake. Three things matter:
a) How many other white decks do you see in your meta?
b) Why include it? (that is: what does it do for you, more specifically)
c) Is it the best solution to the reason presented in b?

I see very little white in my meta, which was a secondary reason to building this deck. A few decks may run Exalted Angel, but I wouldn't call most of them Angel Stompy. So a) would likely be positive for me - Crusade would help me win more games than it would make me loose.

As for b), your argument to include it is relevant in itself. I'd have a hard time beating threshold considering creature size alone. Goblins are a different story. They have a toughness of 1 or 2, and most have unimpressive power (piledriver being a notable exception). I think Crusade wouldn't contribute much there. Pyroclasm, though uncommon, comes up often enough to merit consideration.

So we turn to c). I think the deck has sufficient pyroclasm protection as is with mother, knight and 6 creatures with more than 2 toughness. I'm currently debating the usefulness of main deck True Believers at my local forum, and it might end up being replaced with 3 Isamaru since it's a turn 1 Lackey answer. If it is, Karakas would provide another means of sweeper protection. Considering the prevalance of sweepers right now, that should suffice.

Finally, the size of Threshold's creatures. This is more or less the reason I have a bonesplitter in the Gift toolbox. Unless I can put it on Angel before they play Mystic Enforcer, Umezawa's Jitte is so-so in this match-up. I can just barely trade a Jitte-knight for a werebear, but it ties up my mana on equip costs and really seems like fighting a loosing battle.

Not only does Bonesplitter come in two mana earlier than Jitte (very relevant against Threshold), it has wonderful synergy with first strike and mom tricks. Even if I can't equip mom or knight with it, it makes all my "bears" trade with werebear, only costing me one mana to reequip. To get the same advantage with Crusade, I would need two of them, and they don't fetch with Gift. Even if I ran a full four copies, I would need two in play to do the job of the humble bonesplitter - which I have effectively 5 copies of.

Another argument that could be made in favor of Crusade is a quicker clock - that it speeds up the win in most aggro match-ups. To this I reply: Umezawa's Jitte. It probably does that better than Crusade, and gives removal and life to boot. This is not to say Crusade is a bad card. It can be good. But I enjoy the luxory of a fully equipped toolbox and have little need for it at present.

[Bane of the Living]

Crusade cant be needled. Its effect can be much larger damage wise for a two mana investment, as opposed to Jitte which needs 4 mana and a combat step to show any rewards, never mind the additional equip charges you make over the course of the game. Artifact destruction is much more prevailent than enchantment as well.

[urdjur]

All points I can't argue with, the question is if they matter. Threshold runs Piting Needle, but Umezawa's Jitte is already a sub-optimal card against them. I'd much rather fetch Bonesplitter, as I explained above. And even if they have artifact destruction in the board, I doubt they would bring it in to destroy a humble Bonesplitter.

Umezawa's Jitte is relevant against Goblins for spot removal, which Crusade wouldn't provide, Pithing Needle or no Pithing Needle. Goblins do run artifact destruction, but I'm confident that I will beat them with my better creatures if they expend resources on destroying my equipment.

I'm considering stengthening the Goblins MU in another way however, by swapping True Believer for Isamaru. Here's the deal:

True Believer: 3 True Believers MD and 1 in the side. This is the current set up. It's supposed to protect me against burn, black disruption and storm combo. The problems:
*Nobody plays burn where I live.
*Duress etc. comes out before True Believer, and if it presents a problem to the black player at all, they will naturally choose it as the Duress target.
*The idea to vial out True Believer and Meddling Mage was tested in an aggro anti-combo deck with horrible results against its "best" match-up. The fact is, you may very well loose before you get two counters on your vial. There's also the issue of drawing both Vial and True Believer, with 3 believers in the main.

Isamaru: Swapping the three Believers for three Isamarus gives me an even better goblins MU and allows combat tricks and mass removal anti-measures with Karakas. If so, I'd ditch the 1 believer and geddons in the side and go 4 Rule of Law instead. It's effective in pretty much the same MUs as geddon, but better (and a decesive 1 mana faster) against Tendrils, if it would come up. However, Karakas will see absolutely no Reanimator use (unheard of here), and my Goblins MU is already quite favorable, but that's no excuse not to make it even better.

Right now I'm thinking I will probably sit there in one match thinking "if only this doggy was a True Believer", but it's starting to seem that in 90% of all matches, the dog would have been superior. There's also Soltari Priest - probably better with the equipment in general, and not bad against goblins. Definetely not an answer to turn 1 lackey though.

Suggestions?

[Iranon]

I'm not convinced to be honest; maindeck Believers look rather vital for Combo matches (and help against Burn/Discard, as you said). I really don't see any way you can make your post-board matches against Combo so favourable that you can afford handing them the first one on a platter.

It also bears remembering that you don't necessarily need Vials; they are still a decent roadbock especially when backed up by Mother of Runes.
The speed problem you mentioned means Rule of Law isn't an optimal sideboard card: If you are on the draw, most combo decks other than Solidarity have a depressingly decent chance to kill you before you can play it anyway.

Incidentally, True Believer isn't a legal target for Duress. Perhaps you meant Cabal Therapy?

[urdjur]

I think it's really an issue of prevalence in my meta. Combo decks are few and far between, threshold decks are numerous. I'm hoping that the Ux-aggro decks will take care of the few fast combo decks that may arise and allow me to top 8 smoothly.

Also, when IGGy and Solidarity attempts to go off, sequential mechanisms like mom or greaves are only a nuiscance to them. It's like counting on a single Gaea's Blessing to do something against Solidarity. They can bounce the greaves, then the mother, then the believer - no sweat. Glowrider is a different matter entirely though, since it runs them out of steam before they have enough answers. Unfortunately, it's a crappy fit for the deck in its present incarnation.

I don't think I can have a good game against all decks, some I'm gonna settle for a great game against goblins and thres, an acceptable game against everything non-combo, and an autoloss game 1 and 50/50 games 2 and 3 against the match-ups that come up 5% of the time.

My point of the switch from Armageddon to Rule of Law was that RoL was faster, not sufficiently fast all the time. Chalice @0 is the fastest there is, but it's only useful sometimes. If there's a better combo hoser than RoL, please inform me. What would be better: Sphere of Resistance? Crypt (to narrow?)

[Iranon]

From your posts so far, I would say Tormod's Crypt (very little combo in your meta, IGGy Pop being the most prevalent).
It comes down turn 1 when needed and, combined with your Grunts, should wreck any deck that relies on the graveyard.

This, of course, means dropping your pants and bending over to any combo deck that doesn't need the yard but I don't think you have a realistic chance to win a match against them anyway if you remove the maindeck Believers (Even with Rule of Law, I think a 50% chance game 2 and 3 is on the optimistic side... which is just not good enough if game one favours them so heavily).

[urdjur]

Is Tormod's Crypt really all that against IGGy POP? It has anti-synergy with Grunt, which is generally better graveyard hate since it's continous. Unfortunately though, the giant can only go to work on the grave by turn 3, which may be too late against IGGy. This means Crypt will really only be useful against IGGy since I have Grunt already and they have anti-synergy. I fear that Crypt isn't enough of a "you loose now" card against the rare IGGy match-up to merit inclusion.

Hmm, you know, this deck had a small rebel toolbox before I went with the equipment concept (back when I had glowriders). With Ramosian Sergeant, KotHN and Children of Korlis. The sergeant ultimately proved too slow, but CoK was a great card against Iggy Pop.

What about just ditching True Believer in favor of Children of Korlis? It's faster and it says "you can't win this turn" against IGGy. They can't bounce it effectively which makes it a better hard cast, and it's still "vialable" turn 2! It also has synergy with Grunt, contrary to Crypt, and can be main decked just as painlessly as True Believer. It may, in fact, be more versatile than beliver given my aggro-heavy meta with no mono black dedicated disruption or pure burn. It's basically a time walk against aggro.

[Rastadon]

Children of Korlis isn't really all that great. Saccing it makes you regain the life you've already lost, not the life you will lose, so Iggy can still bounce it. If you put the toolbox back you could tutor a Children up and sac it vs iggy, but if you don't they see it from a mile away.

It doesn't do much vs aggro either. If Goblins alpha strike you and go lethal in one turn, Children aren't going to save you. By the time you've lost life, you're dead or they've removed Korlis.

Now, if you add 1-2 Ancient Tomb you can play Armageddon on turn 3 if you fetch it out with Wayfarer. Just as quick as Rule of Law but not so narrow.

[urdjur]

You mean, if I add tombs, I can fetch them with wayfarer, if I get wayfarer, so I can use armageddon, if I get armageddon, on turn threee, if I survive till then? :cry:

But yes, you are right, Children of Korlis are not so fantastic. So far, the only half-good solution to IGGy Pop is CotV@1. It stops the bounce and the tutor that gets the bounce (and/or wincon), plus it stops dark ritual. It won't stop the combo for sure, but it may very well, and atleast it protects itself. Unfortunately, relying exclusively on 4x CotV in the board isn't even a 50% win chance in games 2 and 3...

Stifle and counters seems to be the only way to tackle IGGy Pop. Everything else can be bounced. Seems entirely possible to play around Crypt that way too, or am I mistaken? I'd like to improve my combo match-up very much, if I only knew how. All on color counter measures I can think of are nuiscances at best.

[Iranon]

Tormod's Crypt isn't amazing against Iggy, but it should be enough to make the match winnable while making your game against Thresh even better.
It seemed the most sensible quick fix if Iggy is the only combo deck of any relevance.

Hate costing 3 mana isn't only a problem because you might be goldfished turn 2/3, but because you can't really mulligan agressively for it (especially not if it's a legal target for Duress). 5 cards, one of which is Rule of Law is not really a solid start in my opinion.

I still think maindecked Believers are the way to go (they don't shut things down indefinitely but a roadblock that beats is often good enough). Incidentally, how has Specter's Shroud been? That looks quite attractive because you can tutor it up reliably. Was it worth cutting Mask (I liked two different draw engines that had excellent synergy between them)?

[urdjur]

The Shroud is largely irrelevant against combo since it comes out turn 3 and the discard is opponents's choice. IGGy Pop isn't usually dependent on its entire hand to combo out by then. It's useful against slower control decks though, since it forces them to use the answers they've save up on. I'm strongly considering relegating it to the sideboard though. While not often a tutor target, Mask of Memory is a better top deck.

Okay, so let's see what we can really do with True Believers. They need back-up either by Mother of Runes or Aether Vial. Here are some approximations to determining how game 1 would fare:

*IGGy Pop wins on turn 1 5% of the time
*IGGy Pop wins on turn 2 25% of the time
*IGGy Pop wins on turn 3+ 65% of the time
*IGGy Pop fizzles or looses to a bad draw 5% of the time

*BFG wins over IGGy Pop if it can play Mother of Runes turn 1 and True Believer turn 2 (I can grant True Believer protection from blue until end of turn in response to any bounce, meaning IGGy can't win that turn)
*BFG wins over IGGy Pop if it can play turn 1 Aether Vial, and vial out True Believer in response, but only in the 65% of the cases where this is relevant
*Otherwise, BFG looses game 1 to IGGy Pop

(Of course, these approximations may not be entirely accurate, but I hope that overly positive estimations will balance out overly negative estimations)

Counting with a full playset of maindeck True Believers, this modifies the above win probabilities for IGGy Pop to:
*100% of the turn 1 will remain unaffected (there's Chalice for games 2 and 3)
*82% of the turn 2 kills will remain unaffected
*65% of the turn 3 kills will remain unaffected
*100% of the autolosses will remain unaffected

Result: 30% win chance game 1.

Do you still think it's worth maindecking True Believer? Even if I assume that fully 10% of my MU would be combo (an over-estimate), maindecking True Believer would statistically affect 3 out of 100 first games. Now consider that more than 50 Legacy players in one tournament is highly unusual where I live.

I think the best way to go is to focus on a multi-purpose sideboard. I can live with the anti-synergy between Crypt and Grunt if it means extra combo protection AND 7 sources of graveyard hate post board against Threshold, 43land etc. I'm definetely dropping Rule of Law, and Armageddon seems to slow to matter for my deck anyway. Going all out on graveyard hate, Chalice, plus some added boosts to the main deck (extra Grunt, wayfarer) + silver bullets for the engines (Shroud, manriki-gusari, maze of ith etc.) might be the way to go.

[urdjur]

Hm.. strangely enough, my last post didn't bump the thread, so it still looks like Iranon was the last poster :confused: Hope this will do the trick.

[Blair Phoenix]

Result: 30% win chance game 1.

Do you still think it's worth maindecking True Believer? Even if I assume that fully 10% of my MU would be combo (an over-estimate), maindecking True Believer would statistically affect 3 out of 100 first games.

Perhaps My math is bad again, but I do believe 30% of 100 games would be 30 games.

[urdjur]

Perfectly correct if you play 100 games against IGGy Pop, but I was over-estimating that True Believer would only be a decisive play in 10% of all match-ups. 10% out of 30 equals 3.

EDIT: Here's an idea. Who says white doesn't have multi-purpose combo hosers just like blue does in its counterspells? Well, I think I did implicitly, but I was a fool. Rifter has put Abeyance to good use, and there is also Orim's Chant. I think they would work really well against many different decks. They go with the "no counter" theme of the deck and hates on Thres. They are instants, meaning more Grunt food. It's an easy fit with the deck.

I'm just wondering if I should go for Chant or Abeyance? Abeyance cantrips which is more good draw for the deck, but I need to keep two mana open in a deck that doesn't like to keep mana open that much... Of course, play style will definetely need to be adapted depending on the opposition - if I play all out aggro on combo I will naturally loose! Chant has the added benefit of preventing a goblins alpha strike. Neither seem to be dead cards in any match-up though. Stalling aggro is arguably of less use than stopping activated abilities for this deck, since it hates aggro so much already.

3-4 maindeck abeyance... hmm...

[urdjur]

I've come to think that Orim's Chant is the better choice. I only need to keep one mana open, which means I can even stop turn 1/2 kills instead of turn 2/3 kills. Against aggro decks, I get a free round of attacking. Against blue control I get counter protection and against board control I can postpone WoG etc. for a round. I wonder why other white weenie decks don't play with main deck Chants, as it helps against so many problems and has an aggressive use to boot. Perhaps they feel they need more land, creatures or pump...

Btw, Rishadan Port appears to be so-so in this deck, and I think the problem is the low land count. I can't afford to lock down one land with two of my own - it stalls my clock as much as the opposition. It also has bad synergy with wayfarer, since I need a third land to use wayfarer so that I can get more mana to play stuff while keeping one of their lands locked, which means that they must have at least 4 lands in play already, meaning I'm toast on their next land drop anyway... I think Orim's Chant more than makes up for dropping it, as it stalls WoG and stops combo more adequately.

Here's an updated deck list with a more reasonable sideboard. Overall, I think the loss of true believers and gain of Orim's Chant strengthens game 1 against combo a lot, it gives an added shield (besides Vial) against control and a more competitive clock vs. aggro.

LANDS (18)
14 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland

CREATURES (20)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Silver Knight
3 Leonin Shikari
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt

OTHER SPELLS (22)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
2 Abolish
4 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Bonesplitter
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mask of Memory

SIDEBOARD (15)
>>multi-purpose and anti-combo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
>>reinforcement of main deck
2 Abolish
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Weathered Wayfarer
>>wayfarer toolbox
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Maze of Ith
>>gift toolbox
1 Specter's Shroud
1 Manriki-Gusari