[Deck] E.R.A. [Archive]

Phantom

11-30-2006, 12:09 AM

So, this deck is really a convergence of several events:

1) Realizing that Red Thresh beats Goblins more than White Thresh (look, I didn't say they were momentous events) but loses some weapons against combo.

2) Evil Roopey (I think) saw a weakness in Thresh in both it's graveyard dependency and it's running a subpar color (green) and created the Thresh spinoff Eon Blue Apocolypse.

3) I have been working on Dragon Stompy, which runs Pyroclasm/Rolling earthquake mainboard and have witnessed the brilliance first hand.

4) I was testing a white splash version of Faerie Stompy, and realized the brilliance of Court Hussar in a deck with good spells and equipment.

So basically, I decided to steal the EBA idea, but I didn't like trading in green for black. Black gives you Dark Confidant, Duress, and Anurid/Rotting Giant. These help some matchups, but none of them really help vs. Goblins. Red on the other hand, gives you some great spells vs. Goblins (and aggro in general) while still letting me hang onto Meddling Mage to boost the combo matchup (unlike Red thresh).

Also, I didn't want to go 50/50 pre-board against Goblins, and then lose to some lucky or busted draw. I wanted to smash them from the get go, so I decided to design the deck around running either clasm or earthquake mainboard (right now it's clasm). .

E.R.A. by Phantom

//Land (18)
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
1 Island

// Creatures (15)
4 Court Hussar
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avengers
2 Meddling Mage
1 Lightning Angel

//Spells (24)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Vision
4 Fow
4 StP
4 Pyroclasm (might be Rolling Earthquake)
2 Daze
2 Counterspell

// Equipment (3)
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
2 Jitte

//Rough Board
2 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ftk
3 Armageddon
3 Disenchant

Card Choices

Mana Base - Based on Red Thresh's, but had to add some since I run less cantrips and more 3cc cards. Still tinkering though. Sadly, none of my fetches can get a basic mountain.

Court Hussar - Has just been awesome. Great defensive creature as is. Fantastic equipment carrier thanks to Vigilance and a great draw spell vs. fast aggro since it allows you to both draw and stall.

Jotun Grunt - I'm only running three so I don't get 2. I can usually only support him for 2 turns, but he can often live for three with the opponents help. Still, I'm not sure he has ever actually lived that long.

Mom - My only one drop, and a must kill for many decks. Works great with the rest of the aggro package.

Serra Avenger - Has been great so far. The deck isn't built for speed and the vigilance is huge vs. aggro and with equipment.

Meddling Mage - I like 2 mainboard. They can always pitch to Force. Might bump to 3 if combo testing doesn't go well.

Brainstorm/FoW/StP/Serum Vision - Not much to explain here. All awesome 4 ofs.

Clasm - Wrecks Goblins and other aggro. Rolling Earthquake is more universal though and can help in combo and Thresh matchups. So far it has been great and I've never killed one of my own creatures with it.

Daze/Counterspell - 2 of each. I'm liking the number now, but we'll see.

Sword/Jitte - 2/2 split. Don't ever want 2 Jitte's and Swords are nice on fliers.

Testing

Goblins - Favorable. Went 15-5 vs. R/w Goblins (3 wastes, 3 ports) in testing.

Thresh - Going 65/35 preboard with them at the moment.

Combo - Probably a tad worse than UGW Thresh pre-board, but I'm sure just as good post board and adds the option of REB and Stifle. In other words, I'm not really worried about the combo matchup as long as we have counters and Mage.

Faerie Stompy - Even. Suprisingly. Went 11-9 against them pre-board and I think it may turn to slightly favorable once we set a board.

EDIT - Here's a more aggro list that Anusien has been working on:

// Lands
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
1 Island

// Creatures
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Serendib Efreet

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Pyroclasm
4 Daze
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Sleight of Hand

Kronicler

11-30-2006, 01:37 AM

Huh, seems like an interesting combination of ideas. My first reaction is that 5 pro red creatures is to many, and that you might want to replace a few with Moms as we both know how awesome they are. Besides that it looks like a great deck and I look forward to seeing it evolve.

Kronicler

Jankwolf

11-30-2006, 01:56 AM

Have you done any testing against black decks??
Discard
Pox
Sui Black
Deadguy ale
Red death?
I think the only problem i can see with this is jotun grunts(He doesnt stay around often enough) and the fact that black might pose a problem for you i.e. discard...other than that good list.

I know the mana base might not support it but have you tried running lightning angel in the place of grunt?

Pinder

11-30-2006, 02:04 AM

So...ERA stands for Eon Red Apocalypse? It looks a little more like Faerie Stompy than EBA, honestly. Couldn't you just call it Star Spangled Stompy? I like that name better, but you can do whatever you like.

Weatherseed Faeries looks a little odd here, though. I realize that it's a 2/1 flyer with Pro: Red (so it can dodge Clasm and Quake and all the little green men it wants), but it just seems like there has to be something better you can spend 2U on (especially since you run Drakes and Efreets).

Overall though, looks good.

kicks_422

11-30-2006, 03:06 AM

I'd relegate the Meddling Magi to the SB entirely, or up them to 4 and then drop the 'Clasms to the SB... You won't be needing them both in match-ups anyway, as Magi are weak against decks you need to Clasm, and Clasms are useless against decks where you need the Magi. It all depends on your meta which one you'll be keeping MD though...

I'd just give it a simple name like Patriot and be done with it... :D

Eldariel

11-30-2006, 07:42 AM

Since France and USA.decs are already taken, make it Netherlands.dec, GB.dec or something. Anyhow, I think your curve is a bit off. I'd probably prioritise white mana if I were you, to enable the deck to play Serra Avenger (since you play no acceleration, costing 2 is so huge). It would also enable Silver Knight over Weatherseed Faeries. Sea Sprite's evasion seems possibly relevant though, so I don't know, which one you should prefer. Anyhow, while I like the deck, I might consider trying to fit in 4 more cantrips as you only run 19 lands. I'd also go without SoFIs since 3 mana is so much for the deck. All in all, I think your curve is a bit too Faerie Stompyesque for a deck with no acceleration.

Phantom

11-30-2006, 10:10 AM

Wow. Lots of good points here. Let's see what I've got:

Huh, seems like an interesting combination of ideas. My first reaction is that 5 pro red creatures is to many, and that you might want to replace a few with Moms as we both know how awesome they are. Besides that it looks like a great deck and I look forward to seeing it evolve.

Thanks for the feedback. I did overload on pro-red because I wanted to whup up on Gobs, and I wanted some cheap creatures that still dodged clasm. As for Mom, I've never really liked her, since she's knid of useless on here own, and uber vunerable the turn she's played. Still, I've never tried her in a deck with counters, and she can survive clasm, so I'll def give her a shot.

Have you done any testing against black decks??
Discard
Pox
Sui Black
Deadguy ale
Red death?
I think the only problem i can see with this is jotun grunts(He doesnt stay around often enough) and the fact that black might pose a problem for you i.e. discard...other than that good list.

I know the mana base might not support it but have you tried running lightning angel in the place of grunt?

I haven't done any testing against black decks. I'm more worried about the big three now, then i'll move on to tier 2, but I'm sure black will cause me similar problems to what is causes Thresh. Clasm does help some of those matchups though.

Lightning Angel is nice, but you can't compare it to Grunt. Two more mana is a world of difference. I might try replacing a Serendib with it and see if i can cast it reliably.

So...ERA stands for Eon Red Apocalypse? It looks a little more like Faerie Stompy than EBA, honestly. Couldn't you just call it Star Spangled Stompy? I like that name better, but you can do whatever you like.

Weatherseed Faeries looks a little odd here, though. I realize that it's a 2/1 flyer with Pro: Red (so it can dodge Clasm and Quake and all the little green men it wants), but it just seems like there has to be something better you can spend 2U on (especially since you run Drakes and Efreets).

Overall though, looks good.

Yeah, I'm not nuts about the name, but I haven't heard anything I've loved so far. The deck really only shares a few cards with FS (Sprites, Efreets, FoW and equipment). Note that I am NOT running Drake (maybe I should be, but I was worried about the tempo setback and anti synergy with Daze).

I think I will drop Weatherseeds all together and simply rely on Sea Sprites for my cheap flyer/pro-red quota.

I'd relegate the Meddling Magi to the SB entirely, or up them to 4 and then drop the 'Clasms to the SB... You won't be needing them both in match-ups anyway, as Magi are weak against decks you need to Clasm, and Clasms are useless against decks where you need the Magi. It all depends on your meta which one you'll be keeping MD though...

I want to keep both clasm and Mage because they help in completely different matchups, and I don't want to sacrifice either matchup game 1. That's also why I don't care about their anti synergy, because in the games where I want to cast Clasm, I really don't care if Mage dies (I probably didn't even bother casting him) and in the games where I want Mage down, no way in hell will I need a clasm (there will probably be a few exceptions to this, but very rarely).

Since France and USA.decs are already taken, make it Netherlands.dec, GB.dec or something. Anyhow, I think your curve is a bit off. I'd probably prioritise white mana if I were you, to enable the deck to play Serra Avenger (since you play no acceleration, costing 2 is so huge). It would also enable Silver Knight over Weatherseed Faeries. Sea Sprite's evasion seems possibly relevant though, so I don't know, which one you should prefer. Anyhow, while I like the deck, I might consider trying to fit in 4 more cantrips as you only run 19 lands. I'd also go without SoFIs since 3 mana is so much for the deck. All in all, I think your curve is a bit too Faerie Stompyesque for a deck with no acceleration.

I did consider Silver Knight, but I figured flying > first strike (especially with Sword), but I didn't think about avenger. Hmmm. I wonder how many times his drawback would kill me. I do have clasm to counter that early rush... I think I will try Avenger, at least as a 2 of. If I do drop Sword in exchange for just Jitte, I'll throw in Silver Knight, but right now I'm loving 2 of each, even when I'm casting and equipping on seperate turns.

I am going to squeeze in 4 Serum Visions and see how it goes.

Thanks for all the feedback and keep it up.

Cavius The Great

11-30-2006, 10:36 AM

Unnecessary Quoting FTW

I really think Ophidian should be in any deck running MD'ed Pyroclasm, but that's just me.

Phantom

11-30-2006, 11:17 AM

lukatron2

11-30-2006, 11:25 AM

pretty sweet looking deck. 1 main thing I noticed. An early wastland seems like it really hurts this decks development with all of the 3 drops you have. There are so many nonbasics that it would be harder to play around wasteland as well. Have you had any problems with early wasteland/ports? also, I really like the maindeck clasms. They are sweet against affinity,gobs, and other aggro decks too. but like that other guy said, they're dead against combo. I think that mother of ruins would be sweet in here cause its an early drop and helps protect you/ your mages. also, court hussar is pretty sweet too, but maybe serum visions would be better for your early game. all in all what I'm trying to say is sweet deck, I think the early game plan needs some work because it looks kinda vulnerable right now.

Jankwolf

11-30-2006, 11:26 AM

Ah yes, now i know what this deck reminds me of...FISH...HAve you thought of going that route with it?? Instead of serium visions have you tried curiosity...
Simply put alot of your creatures have evasion, Therefore a great possibility of your dude dealings damage unblocked. You get card everytime said creature deals damage...Again i think the fish route would be a good way to go. Since two casters are a common theme with creatures you could also run vile with standstill as primary draw and curiosity as secondary draw...I dunno if this is what you were shooting for but i hope some of the suggestions help.
AS for the deck name and thinking of a patriotic name...you could go with These colors dont run.dec For short T.C.D.R.dec(ticder.dec For pronounsiation for it)

outsideangel

11-30-2006, 12:18 PM

I think the Ophidian slot is being eaten by hussar, which has the bonus of drawing even if it dies quickly. Also, it does damage which is nice when the equipment comes out. Here's the newest build:

-3 Serendib (they were just killing me vs. Goblins)
-1 Delta
-1 StP
-2 Weatherseed Faeries

+2 Serra Avenger
+4 Serum Visions
+1 Lightning Angel

The Serum Visions are nice. Don't know why I left them out to begin with. Be back later with some hard numbers and I'll start working on a rough sideboard.

I know you just dropped the Serendibs, but I'd work them back in, probably in place of the other 2 Weatherseed Faeries. It might make your Goblin match a bit worse, but 3/4s are much better than 2/1s against basically every other non-red deck. Metagaming specifically to beat goblins is good and all, seeing as how it's one of the top decks in the format, but if you focus too heavily on beating just goblins, you end up weak against everything else. That said, I really like the deck, and will play around with it a bit.

Pinder

11-30-2006, 02:22 PM

ote that I am NOT running Drake (maybe I should be, but I was worried about the tempo setback and anti synergy with Daze).

Oops. It was Sea Sprite. I just saw the words 'Faerie Stompy' and 'Sea' in your opening post, and I assumed that 'Sea' must have been followed by Drake. I was tired. And you probably shouldn't be running them in a deck that can't abuse the whole Ancient Tomb/Chrome Mox opening.

I know you just dropped the Serendibs, but I'd work them back in, probably in place of the other 2 Weatherseed Faeries. It might make your Goblin match a bit worse, but 3/4s are much better than 2/1s against basically every other non-red deck. Metagaming specifically to beat goblins is good and all, seeing as how it's one of the top decks in the format, but if you focus too heavily on beating just goblins, you end up weak against everything else. That said, I really like the deck, and will play around with it a bit.

I think that outsideangel is right about that. They may kill you against Goblins (sometimes), but they're absolutely fantastic against a lost of things. A 3/4 flyer for 3 is nothing to sneeze at. And you have Jitte to help you beat the lifeloss, right? I'd take out Sea Sprites before Weatherseed Faeries, or perhaps 1 of each, though. 2/1 flyers > 1/1 flyers.

Instead of serium visions have you tried curiosity...

Not so sure about Curiosity, but along the whole equipment route, there's Mask of Memory. The the discard off of it would help you feed Grunt, at least.

I agree with the Serra Avenger/Lightning Angel thing, though. There's just nothing better than evasion and vigilance, especially when combined with SoFI, and even moreso with Jitte. Two counters on your turn, two on theirs.....

Mirrislegend

11-30-2006, 03:00 PM

4x MD Serra Avenger, and no Aether Vial? Seems a little extreme to me. Drop at least one for a Serendib

outsideangel

11-30-2006, 04:25 PM

I think that outsideangel is right about that. They may kill you against Goblins (sometimes), but they're absolutely fantastic against a lost of things. A 3/4 flyer for 3 is nothing to sneeze at. And you have Jitte to help you beat the lifeloss, right? I'd take out Sea Sprites before Weatherseed Faeries, or perhaps 1 of each, though. 2/1 flyers > 1/1 flyers.

Not so sure about Curiosity, but along the whole equipment route, there's Mask of Memory. The the discard off of it would help you feed Grunt, at least.

I agree with the Serra Avenger/Lightning Angel thing, though. There's just nothing better than evasion and vigilance, especially when combined with SoFI, and even moreso with Jitte. Two counters on your turn, two on theirs.....

2/1 is indeed > 1/1, but 1U is also > 2U. Swapping Weatherseed Faeries with Serendibs doesn't raise your mana curve any, and keeping a low mana curve is important to this deck. The deck wants to keep a low curve so that you can cantrip/equip/play removal/counter stuff as well as drop threats. Additionally having to wait an extra turn on a threat for 1 extra damage isn't so hot when you really want to be accumulating counter on Jitte or drawing cards off of SoFI. And though it may not seem signifigant, Sea Sprite gives you an extra out vs. Lackey when you're on the play.

Back to the OP, you've got a lot of dig with Hussar, Brainstorm, and Serum Visions. Since you're not trying to build storm, put counters on Dryad, or fill the yard (except for Grunt) why not play more buisiness spells in the place of some of those cantrips. Silver Knight, more Meddling Mages and Lightning Bolt/Helix spring to mind.

Phantom

11-30-2006, 09:33 PM

First off, some details. I updated the opening post to show the changes I've made so when it says 2 Serra Angel, and later it says I'm adding 2 Serra Angels, it does not mean I'm running 4. Also, there was some confusion about Weatherseed Faeries. I was only ever running 2 and I dropped them.

pretty sweet looking deck. 1 main thing I noticed. An early wastland seems like it really hurts this decks development with all of the 3 drops you have. There are so many nonbasics that it would be harder to play around wasteland as well. Have you had any problems with early wasteland/ports?

Not too bad. I'm going nearly 75% against Goblins so it can't be that bad. Access to white and blue are very good. You have to be careful with WW, UU, and red though. So basically as long as you're super careful with your opening hands and fetches, you should be ok. More dedicated LD might be a problem though.

Ah yes, now i know what this deck reminds me of...FISH...HAve you thought of going that route with it?? Instead of serium visions have you tried curiosity...
Simply put alot of your creatures have evasion, Therefore a great possibility of your dude dealings damage unblocked. You get card everytime said creature deals damage...Again i think the fish route would be a good way to go. Since two casters are a common theme with creatures you could also run vile with standstill as primary draw and curiosity as secondary draw...I dunno if this is what you were shooting for but i hope some of the suggestions help.
AS for the deck name and thinking of a patriotic name...you could go with These colors dont run.dec For short T.C.D.R.dec(ticder.dec For pronounsiation for it)

Fish, at least classic Fish, is a pretty terrible deck, so I wouldn't really want to copy them much. Curiosity is just terrible in a format with so much instant removal (I don't want to turn their plows into card advantage for them). Standstill and Vial are certainly a nice combination, but that is a draw engine for a completely different deck (See Blue Skies).

I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the name, but I'm pretty sure it won't have anything to do with countries or flags.

I know you just dropped the Serendibs, but I'd work them back in, probably in place of the other 2 Weatherseed Faeries. It might make your Goblin match a bit worse, but 3/4s are much better than 2/1s against basically every other non-red deck. Metagaming specifically to beat goblins is good and all, seeing as how it's one of the top decks in the format, but if you focus too heavily on beating just goblins, you end up weak against everything else. That said, I really like the deck, and will play around with it a bit.

I already addressed the point above that I run no Weatherseeds anymore, but your point still is valid. I think it has to do with how I build decks. I like to build a deck that demolshes Goblins, as I consider that the most important matchup. Then I take that build and go test everything else and see what I need to change.

That being said, I certainly won't forget about Serendibs, but keep in mind that they do the same net damage as a Weatherseeds each turn, and they both dodge bolt but only Weatherseed dodges Incinorator, and only Weatherseed is good when at 5 life or less. Still, I will certainly keep Seredib in mind when I do my Thresh testing.

I'd take out Sea Sprites before Weatherseed Faeries, or perhaps 1 of each, though. 2/1 flyers > 1/1 flyers.

Sure, if they both cost 2. But I'm mostly playing them for their pro red. They basically do the same thing with equipment on them. The difference between 1U and 2U against a Gob build running 4 Wastes + Ports is the difference between a win and a loss.

Not so sure about Curiosity, but along the whole equipment route, there's Mask of Memory. The the discard off of it would help you feed Grunt, at least

I'm not running equipment for draw. I have plenty of draw. I'm running it to smash face and give protection and blow creatures up.

4x MD Serra Avenger, and no Aether Vial? Seems a little extreme to me. Drop at least one for a Serendib

Even if I were running 4, I'm not eating up 4 slots in order to play this guy 1 turn earlier. So far, the 2 have been great. Thinking about bumping to 3, but probably no more than that since I wouldn't want 2 in my opening grip.

In other words, I could run a 60 card deck with Silver Knight, more Meddling Mages and Lightning Bolt/Helix or I could run a 40 card deck with cards that I consider better. Also, it means that the four ofs in my deck are virtually 5 ofs. This is one of the huge reasons Thresh has been so successful.

Again, thanks to everyone for the replies (even if I shot them down).

I finally finished up my 20 games against R/w Goblins (figured that would be Era's hardest Goblin flavor) and went 15-5. Needless to say, I can move on to other matchups. Next up, Thresh.

Pinder

12-01-2006, 12:36 AM

Sure, if they both cost 2. But I'm mostly playing them for their pro red. They basically do the same thing with equipment on them. The difference between 1U and 2U against a Gob build running 4 Wastes + Ports is the difference between a win and a loss.

I suppose that in this case 1U > 2U is more important than 2/1 > 1/1. Good point.

I certainly won't forget about Serendibs, but keep in mind that they do the same net damage as a Weatherseeds each turn..

I'm not really sure that's accurate. I assume that you're counting the 1 damage they deal to you as being equivalent to 1 damage you didn't do to your opponent (hence the 'net damage'), but I don't thing that they equate that easily. Truth of the matter is, they deal more damage than Weatherseeds each turn, plain and simple. Even if they deal 1 damage to you each turn, they're still dealing your opponent 3 damage each turn. If you had a 3/4 flyer without a drawback and your opponent got a free Lava Dart every one of your upkeeps, you wouldn't say that your flyer was only dealing them 2 damage, right? Bottom line, an unabated Serendib Efreet kills a goldfish in 7 swings. Weatherseed takes 10. Even if the Efreet deals you 7 damage in that time (keep in mind that's the worst case scenario), it's still 3 full turns faster. That's gotta count for something. Especially when you have such a wonderful way to counteract the drawback. One counter from a Jitte buys you 2 turns of swinging with an Efreet. That's 6 damage, possibly a lot more if he's carrying equipment.

Since you're not trying to build storm, put counters on Dryad, or fill the yard (except for Grunt) why not play more buisiness spells in the place of some of those cantrips. Silver Knight, more Meddling Mages and Lightning Bolt/Helix spring to mind.

I'd run Soltari Priest before Silver Knight here. They both have Pro: Red, and they both cost WW, but the evasion on the Priest makes it a lot easier for it to carry Jitte (or SoFI) into your opponent's face. Helix could be nice, though. And the lifegain would also help out with everyone's favorite Efreet :wink:.

Phantom

12-01-2006, 01:57 AM

I'm not really sure that's accurate. I assume that you're counting the 1 damage they deal to you as being equivalent to 1 damage you didn't do to your opponent (hence the 'net damage'), but I don't thing that they equate that easily. Truth of the matter is, they deal more damage than Weatherseeds each turn, plain and simple. Even if they deal 1 damage to you each turn, they're still dealing your opponent 3 damage each turn. If you had a 3/4 flyer without a drawback and your opponent got a free Lava Dart every one of your upkeeps, you wouldn't say that your flyer was only dealing them 2 damage, right? Bottom line, an unabated Serendib Efreet kills a goldfish in 7 swings. Weatherseed takes 10. Even if the Efreet deals you 7 damage in that time (keep in mind that's the worst case scenario), it's still 3 full turns faster. That's gotta count for something. Especially when you have such a wonderful way to counteract the drawback. One counter from a Jitte buys you 2 turns of swinging with an Efreet. That's 6 damage, possibly a lot more if he's carrying equipment.

This is an interesting debate. In goldfishing there is no debate. 7 turns > 10 turns, but net damage is also important, especially in the aggro matchup. I mean, if they made a creature that was 3cc and did 20 damage a turn, but dealt 19 to you, it would be a pretty shitty creature even though it was the fastest goldfish in magic (I'm simplifying here since everyone would be making weird decks that got around it's drawback).

Seredib is an awesome creature but I was just finding it a tad situational. There were too many times I drew it with 5 life. Now the Jitte factor is actually a fairly minor one. If I have an active Jitte going in an aggro match, then the game is pretty much over (unless they kill the creature) so it doesn't matter if the equip-ee was a Serendib, Weatherseed, or Flying Men. I'm winning anyway. In fact, I might prefer a weenie since there is nothing more annoying than having to waste a Jitte counter on lifegain.

Started my testing vs. Thresh. Going a tad better than 50/50 but am thinking about certain cuts. I'm insanely excited about the way this baby has been testing. Could have a strongly positive matchup against the big three with not too much work!

Phantom

12-02-2006, 04:39 PM

Went 11-9 vs. Thresh, which isn't bad, but I'd like a better pre-board matchup there, especially since I'm running Grunt. I'm going to drop Sea Sprite for the time being and try out Mom (who's solid against Goblins and about the best one drop that survives clasm). I also want another Avenger since they've kicked so much ass, and I'd like to test 4 Grunts for the same reason. Can't decide what exactly I want to do with equipment.

Probably won't get to testing till after the weekend, but if anyone has any more suggestions, I'd love to hear some. I'll be back with the changes I tried and how they worked out.

Pinder

12-02-2006, 08:42 PM

I'm going to drop Sea Sprite for the time being and try out Mom (who's solid against Goblins and about the best one drop that survives clasm).

Not so sure about Mom either. Sure it survives Pyroclasm (and Earthquake), but it has to tap to do so. That means it won't tap again to save itself or any of your other creatures from hate on the same turn. I'm not sure how often that'll come up, but it's worth noting. At any rate, it blocks Lackey (even better when you're on the play) and it warrants some testing. But I'm not sure it will accomplish quite the same things as Sea Sprite.

Phantom

12-03-2006, 12:27 AM

Not so sure about Mom either. Sure it survives Pyroclasm (and Earthquake), but it has to tap to do so. That means it won't tap again to save itself or any of your other creatures from hate on the same turn. I'm not sure how often that'll come up, but it's worth noting. At any rate, it blocks Lackey (even better when you're on the play) and it warrants some testing. But I'm not sure it will accomplish quite the same things as Sea Sprite.

I have actually been a big detractor of Moms for a while now, but I have to admit that the testing with her is going great, at least against Thresh. Of course when she resolves, lives for a while, and is able to protect an army is when she's at her best, but that rarely ever happened. What she does most of the time is draw a counter or a Stp. Something Sea Sprite almost never did. And when you have Thresh plowing your one drop, it's all good from there (just ask Goblins). Serras and Grunts were going to town.

I made the following changes to the deck:

-3 Sea Sprite
-1 Sword of F/I

+3 Mom
+1 Serra Avenger

and the deck went from going 50/50 with Thresh to going 80/20 (8-2 in 10 test games, so I'm not done testing yet). The difference was frankly unbelievable. If the testing with this new build still goes well against Goblins, I'm going to get super excited about this decks future and it's ability to crush tier one.

I think I'll test Stifle in Dazes slot. The dazes haven't been so good and the land bounce is annoying in a deck with a highish curve. Stifle can help out against Wasteland and combo too.

Tao

12-03-2006, 08:59 AM

Thresh - Going 80/20 preboard with them at the moment. More testing to come.

Can you explain that?

I haven't tested it but I don't see why this matchup should be one-sided.

Phantom

12-03-2006, 04:29 PM

Can you explain that?

I haven't tested it but I don't see why this matchup should be one-sided.

I'll be the first to admit to you that it's difficult to see being that one sided, but I've only tested ten games, so in the next ten it might drop down to a more reasonable number. I'll make a full write up after I test the needed 20 games to be sure, but I can tell you that most of my wins involve a Jotun Grunt (Grunting them below Thresh and then Pyroclaming is so fun it should be illegal), or a vigilant creature with equipment on it.

Most of their wins involve a Nimble Mongoose as they are rarely able to get a bear or mage to stick around. Occasionally Enforcer can do the trick. Pithing Needle and Explosives are pains as well.

Eldariel

12-03-2006, 05:12 PM

Just thinking, I think there's some promise in the Extended Fujita-style Trinket Angels. It's UWr aggro/control, but packs some serious power in Trinket Mage into Engineered Explosives or Sensei's Divining Top or Pithing Needle, and Counterbalance doing the job of Faerie Stompy's Chalice, except with Top, it makes for a nice total lockdown. Lightning Angel and Silver Knight are some real nice bodies to combat Goblins with, 4 Jittes and such help too, Engineered Explosives, Exalted Angel, Counterbalance, Lightning Angel, etc. are all real nice against Thres, Meddling Mage and Counterbalance are GGs against Solidarity.

Just posting it here, because the shell is pretty similar, so mostly just to discuss few card options, Engineered Explosives? Trinket Mage? Counterbalance? Exalted Angel? Especially Trinket Mage/Counterbalance/Top looks intriguing as the deck plays Serum Visions, which could easily become Top, and Trinket Mage is easy enough to fit, Counterbalance is absolutely destructive. Oh, and it'd allow for singleton tutor targets.

Pinder

12-03-2006, 10:12 PM

Trinket Mage is certainly an interesting idea, I suppose. It dies to pyroclasm though. Just saying. Switching out Serum Visions for Top (especially if you're running Trinket Mage) could be a move in the right direction, even if you're not running Counterbalance. And if you're not impressed with Daze, you could always try counterbalance in that slot. If you go over your curve, you have a decent spread of drops at 1, 2, 3,4, and 5 mana. The only problem there is that, beyond cantrips, you really don't have any sort of way to fish it out of your deck.

Hanni

12-03-2006, 11:26 PM

There's so many different ways Fish can go... it actually started out as U/R Fish. In Legacy, U/W is a very solid combination for Fish. U/G is as well. U/G runs typically stronger beats with less utility. U/W runs more utility. Mother of Runes and Jotun Grunt is a nice aggro package and StP answers alot of things. Meddling Mage is great against Combo. Tossing in burn makes the deck more aggressive and can answer creatures better.

Pyroclasm maindeck is a bad option. Fire//Ice is an amazing option. Threshold is a well developed deck... take what's already well developed. Fire//Ice adds to the cantrip when necessary but also spreads 2 damage around. Pyroclasm sideboard is a good idea though, 4x probably.

Magma Jet should also get added in too though, it feels like Serum Visions but does 2 damage instead of draw a card.

Here's what I would probably do with the deck:

U/W/r Fish

Lands (17)

Creatures (14)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
2 Lightning Angel

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Fire//Ice
2 Magma Jet
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (11)
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
1 Disenchant
4 Pyroclasm
3 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Not really sure how to tune the sideboard, I just splashed some of what I use in UWb Fish and replaced b with r.

Grim Lavamancer really feels like it should be in here, I'm just now sure how.

You don't really want to splash too heavily into a 3rd color. You have to choose what the primary color is going to be, what the secondary color is going to be, and what the splash is going to be. I went with blue main, white secondary, red splashed. It can go many different ways. Fish is extremely versatile.

3/3/2 Mom/Grunt/Avenger is awesome if you have the proper draw to support it. 8 cantrip, 4 Fire//Ice, and 2 Magma Jet adds a nice cantrip element.

4 Meddling Mage is a solid 2 mana creature, not really being as conditional as the rest and having a good amount of utility. Mother of Runes turns him into psuedo-Silver Knight.

4/3/3 FoW/Daze/Stifle is awesome. I've tried 4/3/2 FoW/Daze/Counterspell before and it was good as well. A 4/3/3/2 split could be really good, I just don't know how to fit it.

2 Umezawa's Jitte is good.

Lightning Bolt and StP are both 1cc spot removal. I chose StP for it's ability to answer more creatures, though Bolt would be more aggressive. Take your pick I guess.

Just figured I'd toss out a U/W/r aggro/control list from what I would do with it, to add to everyone's discussion. I just basically swapped the black splash from UWb Fish to a red splash without too much differentiaton. It's all Fish in my opinion, even Threshold. Same idea, different color splashes/combinatons. I think it's always important to make sure the deck has synergy with itself. Having 2 Meddling Mage with 4 Pyroclasm is the opposite of that I think. Good Goblins matchups are good to have but running maindeck hate seems like a bad meta call for a large tournament like GP Columbus. Fire//Ice and Magma Jet add much more to the deck I think, maindeck. Pyroclasm is a very good answer in the sideboard. I'd really like to fit in some Grim Lavamancers though...

EDIT: I'm not really liking the Lightning Angels at all. I thought they might be some good but they just feel like an overcosted Serendib to me. Maybe those would be better as Exalted Angels or Grim Lavamancers.

EDIT again: I forgot about the anti-synergy between Lavamancer and Grunt so I guess that means Lavamancer is out of the picture. I'd have to test this deck alot to really decide what would be a better fit in the Lightning Angel spots, for the build I presented at least.

Phantom

12-04-2006, 03:05 PM

So, I finished up the Thresh testing. Preboard against white Thresh (Bardo's build) I went 8-2, and my partner went 7-3 against Thresh so I think I can safely categorize it as favorable.

I also ran 20 test games againsr R/w Goblins (3 wastes, 3 ports) and went 15-5 with the new build. Looks like the lack of Sprites didn't hurt at all and the Moms were great.

This means that it's possible that this deck is running about 75/25 with all of tier 1 which, if accurate, is uncanny. I'm going to move on to some other matchups and test the ones I think are going to be troublesome (FS, Truffle Shuffle and Deadguy probably) but if anyone wants to pick up the deck and varify my testing results, that would be awesome.

Just thinking, I think there's some promise in the Extended Fujita-style Trinket Angels. It's UWr aggro/control, but packs some serious power in Trinket Mage into Engineered Explosives or Sensei's Divining Top or Pithing Needle, and Counterbalance doing the job of Faerie Stompy's Chalice, except with Top, it makes for a nice total lockdown. Lightning Angel and Silver Knight are some real nice bodies to combat Goblins with, 4 Jittes and such help too, Engineered Explosives, Exalted Angel, Counterbalance, Lightning Angel, etc. are all real nice against Thres, Meddling Mage and Counterbalance are GGs against Solidarity.

Just posting it here, because the shell is pretty similar, so mostly just to discuss few card options, Engineered Explosives? Trinket Mage? Counterbalance? Exalted Angel? Especially Trinket Mage/Counterbalance/Top looks intriguing as the deck plays Serum Visions, which could easily become Top, and Trinket Mage is easy enough to fit, Counterbalance is absolutely destructive. Oh, and it'd allow for singleton tutor targets.

This sounds like a great deck, but I'm probably not the guy to build it, and certainly not the guy to test it. It is a similar idea because it seems to play a deck that wrecks combo and ag-con, and then it splashes red for aggro hate.

Trinket Mage is certainly an interesting idea, I suppose. It dies to pyroclasm though. Just saying. Switching out Serum Visions for Top (especially if you're running Trinket Mage) could be a move in the right direction, even if you're not running Counterbalance. And if you're not impressed with Daze, you could always try counterbalance in that slot. If you go over your curve, you have a decent spread of drops at 1, 2, 3,4, and 5 mana. The only problem there is that, beyond cantrips, you really don't have any sort of way to fish it out of your deck.

I certainly considered Trinket Mage, but it just seemed sub par if there's no Chalice to fetch. SDT is nice, but instead of running Trinkets I can just run Hussars which are a better defensive and equipped creature with a SDT sort of built in. Also, they survive clasm. And as I said above, Counterbalance is not the card for me.

Pyroclasm maindeck is a bad option. Fire//Ice is an amazing option. Threshold is a well developed deck... take what's already well developed. Fire//Ice adds to the cantrip when necessary but also spreads 2 damage around. Pyroclasm sideboard is a good idea though, 4x probably.

Magma Jet should also get added in too though, it feels like Serum Visions but does 2 damage instead of draw a card.

When I was first making the deck, I certainly had burn penciled to that slot, but then I got to thinking about Clasm/Earthquake. I pretty much already had a creature base set up that dodges clasm, and I knew I wasn't going to be burning anyone out FTW, so I thought, isn't clasm better than a 2 point burn spell? So far it has turned out to be much better in both the Goblin and Thresh matchup. If it turns out to be too narrow (note that I don't give a shit if it's dead vs. Combo as this deck will crush combo, especially post board) I'll probably try Rolling Earthquake as it is never dead. I'll always have Fire/Ice and Magma Jet (the Scry is sweet) in the back of my mind as an alternative, but I'm not sure I'll need it.

As for the so called anti-synergy between running 2 Mages and 3 Clasms, I can tell you I've played this deck in 50 games and have cast clasm with a Mage out exactly 0 times. The decks that I clasm against don't let Mage live very long and the times that I clasm are usually desperate measures times, so Mage probably just blocked and died.

Rough Sideboard:

2 FtK
3 Pithing Needles
2 Stifle
2 Meddling Mage
3 Armageddon (I get that feeling I'll need this vs. Control)
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Disenchant
x REB?

Hanni

12-04-2006, 04:04 PM

Well, I still think Pyroclasm is best left as a sideboard option, but I don't have as much testing with this version of Fish as you do.

As for the list I presented, I decided to take out 2 Lightning Angels for 2 Flametongue Kavu's. They provide great mid-late game reach and have a nice fat body. The cc is the same as Lightning Angel but with Flametongue, the deck gets 4 burn to stop Werebears and Jotun Grunt's and whatever else. It also swings for an extra point of damage each turn.

I actually tried testing my UWb Fish deck earlier with a red splash, -1 Underground Sea for +1 Volcanic Island and -3 Duress for +2 Fire//Ice and 1 Umezawa's Jitte to see if it strengthened my Goblins matchup any. Haven't tested enough yet to really say, but I've always liked Fire//Ice so we'll see.

Phantom

12-04-2006, 11:46 PM

Well, I still think Pyroclasm is best left as a sideboard option, but I don't have as much testing with this version of Fish as you do.

As for the list I presented, I decided to take out 2 Lightning Angels for 2 Flametongue Kavu's. They provide great mid-late game reach and have a nice fat body. The cc is the same as Lightning Angel but with Flametongue, the deck gets 4 burn to stop Werebears and Jotun Grunt's and whatever else. It also swings for an extra point of damage each turn.

I would certainly not argue with Ftk in any build, especially a build that dropped clasm, but Lightning Angel fits the feeling of the deck and has actually been pretty amazing vs. Gobs and Thresh. Werebears are almost no problem in the Thresh matchup, it's the Mongeese that will beat you and angel stops them dead in their tracks while beating for 3 a turn. Still, I will certainly test other cards in this slot and perhaps bump it to a 2 of if the test card performs well. First on the list is to try out Exalted Angel.

Edit: One advantage Lightning Angel has is that it can be pitched to FoW when you're mana light.

Solpugid

12-05-2006, 12:18 AM

Phantom

12-06-2006, 02:40 PM

I'm pretty sure you're going to find exalted angel too slow for this deck. It attacks the same turn as lightning angel, but takes up both turn 3 and 4 (or 4 and 5, etc.) where you'd be better off playing extra threats, answering threats, or cantripping. Still, worth a try.

You're spot on here with the added crappiness of dying to clasm if I can't flip it.

Also, updated the first post with a more aggro build that Anusien has been running. Pretty interesting stuff. Also, got some more testing data and put it up there. Next to the (gulp) control matchup.

Hanni

12-16-2006, 12:59 PM

I received this private message and figured I'd share it with you guys:

Submitted by kikkofrio:

I send u the list of my deck cause of my english is not so good to write a thread.
I like it very much and I think it is very good.
I'm italian.
I call my deck miss america, maybe u call it ERA.

Tell me what what do u think about it, and if u want, open a thread to talk about it.

Tnx

Lands:18
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plateau
1 Plains

Creatures: 17
4 Meddling Mage
3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Lightning Angel
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Mother of Runes

Spells: 25
4 Force of Will
3 Fire/Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Umezawa's jitte
4 Perilous Research
3 Daze

My response to him was this:

Well, you can still make posts here. As long as you let people know that your English isn't very good, they won't mind. There actually is a thread for this deck already:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=4716

As far as my suggestions for your list:

3 Lightning Angels is excessive. It's not a creature you want to see in your opening grip and isn't going to be castable every game with only 18 lands, especially against Wastelands and Rishadan Ports (Goblins). I'd cut this down to 2, maybe even 1.

I'm not quite sure that Weathered Wayfarer is a good creature in here. I realize that it will fix your manabase but you lack the Mishra's Factories that truly make it impressive. It's also quite slow. I think you would be much more satisfied with something like Serra Avenger, as a 2-of.

Something like this:

3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
2 Lightning Angel / Serendib Efreet

That's just my opinion of the creatue base.

Perilous Research is a terrible card. You don't want to sacrifice permanents. This should be 4 Serum Visions instead.

I'd like to see 3 Stifle in here since it is such a strong blue card in this format.

I'd also like to see Magma Jet in here too. It's card quality much like Serum Visions but it is also removal. Scry is an amazing ability.

Something like this:

U/W/r Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (14)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
2 Lightning Angel

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Fire//Ice
2 Magma Jet
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Umezawa's Jitte

That's what I would run, personally. The land count of 17 may seem iffy but the deck should have sufficient enough draw to get the lands needed. I cut an Umezawa's Jitte but you can sideboard the 3rd one or simply cut a Lighting Angel. Jitte is usually played and equipped on the same turn to avoid tempo loss and you don't really want more than 4 cards that cost 4 mana. Serendib Efreet would probably fit nicely in here as well. Good luck.

I didn't input a Sideboard for him, but this is what I would probably do:

Sideboard (15)
2 Serenity
4 Pyroclasm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
3 Winter Orb
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Or something along those lines.

Anusien

01-05-2007, 05:23 PM

I don't know where Phantoom's testing results against Goblins or Threshold come from. Based on my preliminary testing against both decks, the matchups should be favorable, but not nearly by that amount.
Anyway, I've done some modifications on my build of the deck. Yes, I took it in more of an aggro direction because there's no way the deck is going to be able to stall for Court Hussar or Mother of Runes to beat down. Here's where I am at the moment:

// Lands
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Plains

// Creatures
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Silver Knight
4 Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Brainstorm
4 Pyroclasm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 4 Blue Elemental Blast

18 lands is exceedingly low, but I feel like I can get around it with the 4 Aether Vials. Considering there are only a few matchups where you need more than two or three, you can run on Island, Plains, Plains for a long time. The basic count looks weird, but against Goblins if you don't have Aether Vial, you want to get a bunch of Plains out to pump out Silver Knights and Serra Avengers easily. Plus, now that I've cut Serendib for Serra Avenger, you can just sit Vial on 2. The main matchup you want a lot of lands is Solidarity, so that you can get extra value from your Force of Wills by hard casting them under High Tide.

I moved the Mother of Runes to the board, since they sucked so incredibly hard against Goblins. You really want them against Threshold and possibly High Tide.

Your game plan against Goblins with this build is to get Umezawa's Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice on a creature. Post-board you bring in the 4th Silver Knight, the 4th equipment and the 4 Blue Elemental Blasts. By contrast, against Threshold you'll get the equipment out more readily and need to stick a creature, so you bring in the MoR.

Edit: Update. I cut the 3 Stifle for 2 Goblin Legionnaire and Sleight of Hand #3 so I would have more creatures and almost enough blue spells. Some people like Galina's Knight in the Legionnaire slot, but I'm still too skeptical. Legionnaire is one of your only ways to stop the Warchief bum rush.

Edit 2: Updated the creature base. This most recent build is posting favorable numbers against Goblins, Threshold and Tide.

diffy

01-22-2007, 03:13 PM

I have been testing this deck for quite some time, mostly agains MWSpeople (we all know that this testing can't really be evaluated) and against some real life gobs/boros and I have been wondering how badly did you miss the stifles as I found them always pretty usefull... thanks for your replies

Windux

02-20-2007, 02:51 PM

That's the list, im working on:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Plateau
1 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [IN] Galina's Knight
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Serum Visions
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [OD] Predict
3 [FD] Magma Jet
2 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [B] Armageddon
SB: 2 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 3 [PT] Pyroclasm

It's testable if Silver Knight is better because of WW, but in my opinion, you don't want to waste your manabase in the early game by fetching WW.

Phantom

02-20-2007, 03:07 PM

My only issue with the knights is their crappiness against Thresh. I guess you help that out with your sweet bun package, but it can still be risky. How's that draw engine working out for you? What about SDT?

Anyway, sorry I haven't been up to much lately on the MTG tip. I've been obsessed with FFXI lately, and school and work ain't helping. Hey, at least I'm single now so I might get to fine tune this puppy before GP:Columbus. I wouldn't hold your breath though.

Windux

02-20-2007, 03:25 PM

SDT is really nice at all. In this deck it's just a gimmick. One Top can't be wrong, 2 ARE wrong. So playing it as 1-off is just fine for me. If you draw it, you're happy, if not the deck still works.
Silver Knight with first strike sounds really nice, because with Jitte or unblocked with SoFaI you can safe your other creatures (at example attack with all, knowing he will die next round if you do this again, he blocks a creature, which you can shot before it gets damage).
Also nice tricks with First strike damage + burn are possible.

Tacosnape

02-20-2007, 11:12 PM

Phantom, you know I rank you as being one of the five best deckbuilders/innovators on this site and I respect your opinions (EDIT: Greatly. How the fuck do you spell terriffically anyway? It doesn't ever look right.), so I don't feel bad making the following rant on your thread as opposed to the others.

What the high fructose fuck syrup is up with people playing Court Hussar?

So it has Vigilance, enough toughness to block your standard goblin, cantrips, and pitches to Force of Will. So what? It's still a creature with power 1 for three mana. I don't consider a creature with 1 power that comes out at roughly the same speed as some combo decks kill you to be worth maindecking. He can pick up equipment, yes, and we all know Vigilance + Equipment = Awesome Sauce, but I don't see enough equipment in this build to guarantee you always have the equipment for him. And a lot of times he's going to be just a 1/3.

Outside of that I like the deck. Thought about Sulfur Elemental in any build not running Mom? He's hot sex with Grunt and Avenger.

hagar852

02-21-2007, 12:26 AM

Here is my list I have been playing since end of October and Early November. This is my list as I have it now.. This deck rolls over and dies against landstill or any other land denial. It is a very UNfavorable matchup... The goblin matchup isn't much better even with silver knights and pyroclasms.

here is my version of the deck.. I have had some success have to watch out agaisnt those mono green troll asectic decks and other untargetables..

4 [R] Tundra
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Plateau
3 [R] Volcanic Island
2 Plains
2 Island

// Creatures
2 [TSP] Lightning Angel
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
3 Stifle
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pithing Needle
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
2 Wrath of God

ExplosPlankton

02-21-2007, 01:30 AM

Phantom

02-21-2007, 02:27 AM

Why are some of you running lightning angel over serendib efreet? He deals some trivial damage to you and loses vigilance but has the same basic stats for one less mana (not to mention being able to be cast more reliably).

I like the synergy of aether vial and serra avenger. Is it impossible to drop the pyros and add one drops (like moms and isamaru) to give the deck some semblance of a curve?

It sounds like your talking about a more aggro version of the deck. Anusien was working on one of those over on SCG. As for my reasons of running lightning angel over serendib, my build is deceptively controlish. Serendibs are terrible creatures in a slow deck. Even a measly Savannah Lion turns them into a wash, life wise.

As for dropping clasm, I wouldn't. This deck was designed to run it, and play around it when you don't need it. Still, there are clearly some builds out there that favor Bolt, Jet, or Fire/Ice, so I won't dissuade you completely.

hagar852: If you're having trouble with untargetables, rolling earthquake either maindeck or out of the board is always an option.

Tacosnape: Don't sweat it man. Ever since I've created the deck people have been yelling at me about Hussar. I've tried to defend him, and tried to get people to at least test him before discarding the idea completely, but have been successful at neither. Since I have no ones judgment to go on but my own, I'll try this again.

People seem to think of hussar as a creature with a draw spell attached. So they focus on the creature and come to the conclusion that he sucks. Fair enough. This seems like looking at Trinket Mage and saying, he's a 2/2 for 3. Sure the fetch is nice, but no way am I playing a 2/2 for 3.

Hussar, to me at least, is a draw spell with a mediocre creature attached. Sure, there are better 2U draw spells out there, but none that I would play in ERA. Here's why:
I remember when Eladriel and I decided to play Fof/TfK in Faerie Stompy to improve the Thresh matchup (and it did help a ton). I remember being suprised at how it affected the goblins matchup. Not that drawing cards is bad against Goblins, or that we couldn't get to 2U reliably against their disruption package, it was just the simple fact that when we were digging, we were doing nothing else while Goblins was making the game unrecoverable no matter how good the cards were we drew into.

This is the conundrum that Hussar solves. It digs while playing the role of stopgap, wall, chump blocker, and occasionally beater. This is clearly awesome against Goblins as it allows us to dig for our fantastic hate while not letting the red men go all combo on us. At times I have thought of Hussar as a draw spell with a Fog attached.

It is also surprisingly good against Thresh and it's clones. I remember testing and ERA was up like 10-3 against Thresh and my play partner began to counter my Hussars. After the game I asked him why (I found it odd since I was running so many more cards that hurt Thresh), and he said "because I'm not countering Brainstorm or Visions, and Thresh just can't keep up with your card quality." And he was right. ERA's draw engine was just killing Thresh's. And since the Brainstorms were the same and the Visions were the same the difference had to be the Hussars.

He's pretty crappy against combo I guess, although digging for hate turn three might come in handy occasionally. Still, I have never been worried about the combo matchup and I doubt I ever will.

Lastly (see how I mentioning him as a creature last, LOL) his body and ability fit into my control -> aggro scheme pretty well. I've found that i generally play defense/control for the first 4-8 turns until my card quality and hosers kick in and I go aggro in your face. Hussars perfect for that since it makes such a good staller and chump blocker while being absolutely deadly with a piece of equipment. Also, don't underestimate how much the Jittes and Sword show up when you're digging this much.

All this is what leads me to stick with the Huss. I have certainly been wrong about creatures before (most recently O. Viper). I guess I could test the matchups with and without him and see if there's a swing in win/losses, but I'm not sure I'll have the time :(

hagar852

02-21-2007, 10:44 AM

hagar852: If you're having trouble with untargetables, rolling earthquake either maindeck or out of the board is always an option.

Earthquake doesn't kill creatures that regen. I have considered it myself but it just doesn't do the job well enough.

Hibernation isn't a bad choice against such creatures and also threshold matchup.

Finn

02-21-2007, 11:42 AM

I estimate that you are going to like Lightning Angel every single time it hits the table. When I tried out this sort of deck (haven't we all) it was my favorite card, and I quickly went up to three. It is one more than Serendib, that's true, but it has both haste and vigilance, making that extra turn it takes minimized in importance. The only issue I can see is that you draw a lot of cards, so the extra cost might be a pain if you would otherwise be ripping through search cards. That was what happened to me. I still like it way better, though.

Also, you have 8 vigilance critters with toughness > 2, right? That alone should give you a nice leg up on gobs. I think that this strategy has a lot going for it. I hope you are in discussion with Anusien to work out the finer details.

Tacosnape

02-21-2007, 12:32 PM

Court Hussar rules and here's a lot of well thought-out logic why (Shortened for posting space)

I guess my problems with Court Hussar are as follows:

1. Court Hussar may do a lot of different things, but it doesn't do any of them well. Three mana for a three-deep Opt is weak, and I can't see where Hussar would actually be all that great against Goblins. It can't block Piledriver and it's wide open after blocking a Warchief or a Siege-Gang Commander. It's too small to live blocking most Threshold creatures, and I would venture to say that Court Hussar isn't the guy swinging Threshold matches in your favor.

2. Power 1 for three mana still makes me cringe. If I'm going to play a 1/3 in a deck like this, I'll go dig up Thieving Magpies.

That said, I must admit there doesn't seem to be much better to perform the role that you have Court Hussar set for. Just...still. Geh.

Anusien

02-21-2007, 01:09 PM

The problem I was having with Court Hussar is while he DOES affect the board, he does so barely. He's actually useless against Threshold, and virtually useless against Goblins. The way I found the Goblins matchup going is that they try to build up an army to crash through my defense, while I either go to clock with Serra Avenger, Silver Knight or just blow them out with equipment, using Pyroclasm to set them back when necessary. The problem here is that Court Hussar isn't really going to hit for damage (they'll block with two 2/2s) and he doesn't will Warchief or Ringleader. Sure, he can block and kill Matron, but you're not going to die to Matron, you're going to die to Piledriver and some 2/2s.

Windux

02-21-2007, 03:09 PM

Another option would be Fanthom Seer.
It's a 2/2 for 3 or a 1/3 for 2.
It's not having Vigilance BUT it has Cardadvantage, even against Landdestruction.
Mostly against Goblins and Sui it can be a big issue, to bounce your lands, which getting wasted/Sinkholed/Ported and play it again. And by the way...that#s just the cost, the effect is way better: draw two cards.

AnwarA101

02-27-2007, 04:05 PM

This deck just made T8 at the February Iserlohn Legacy Tournament in Iserlohn, Germany. The link to the T8 thread is here -

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3996

and the decklist is -

lands (18):
2Island
1Plains
1Snow-Covered Plains
3Tundra
4Volcanic Island
1Plateau
4Flooded Strand
2Polluted Delta

creatures (16):
4Silver Knight
4Jötun Grunt
4Serra Avenger
4Goblin Legionnaire

spells (26):
4Æther Vial
1Sword of Fire and Ice
2Umezawa's Jitte
4Pyroclasm
4Counterspell
4Force of Will
4Brainstorm
3Sleight of Hand

60 cards

Sideboard

creatures (4):
4Meddling Mage

spells (11):
2Swords to Plowshares
3Hydroblast
1Blue Elemental Blast
2Armageddon
2Pithing Needle
1Disenchant

15 cards

Barook

03-21-2007, 06:29 PM

i play/played an almost identical version of the deck above in the current MWS SGC Legacy Tournament. since i figured that i can't make it into the top 8 anymore with a record of 3-2 (well, it was my fault after going 2-0 and screwing up round 3 royally in game 3 when i first forgot to put the 2nd counter on Vial and then forgot to vial in the Legionnaire the other turn. 2 turns wasted which costed me the win in the end :cry: ) and only one round left to play, i think that i can reveal the deck i play:

lands (18):
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

creatures (16):
4 Silver Knight
4 Jötun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
4 Goblin Legionnaire

spells (26):
4 Æther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Pyroclasm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Sleight of Hand

Sideboard

4 Meddling Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

it's almost the same version like here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13670.html) besides adding a Plateau and replacing those totally crappy Threads of Disloyality with other copies of StP. i picked up the deck just before the tournament began and besides a bit of goldfishing, i didn't have any play experience with that deck. but hey, it didn't matter because i only played against rogue random stuff (except Fairy Stompy - a bad match-up - great...).

however, i learned some things about the deck during the tournament, even though those decks were random:

- Pyroclasm was ridiculously useless and unless Goblins run rampant in your meta, i really don't see any reason to MD it. heck, even against Elves, it sucked big time! just run 4 MD StP instead.

- the mana base is good, but still not optimal. i would rather see only 1 of each basics and maximize the amount of blue duals.

- 4 MD Grunts are probably too many and 3 is the more optimal number, but it's very hard to judge that from my current experience because he can double as creature removal when combined with Vial.

- the deck in its current form does roll over and die to CotV unless you have an active Vial in play - it does need anti-artifact (and enchantment) tech - my choice would probably be Aura of Silence because with its 3cc it doesn't care about a Chalice set to 2, it can kill problematic artifacts and slow artifact/enchantment heavy decks down.

- Vial is god in this deck, believe it or not, even with only 16 creatures. no other card reads for control decks: "deal with me or lose!"

- FoW felt slightly underfed in this deck - with my inexperience, i don't know how important Silver Knight MD can be compared to Pikula who would also increase the number of blue spells.

- the deck needs more equipment - it DOES win you games. at least a second copy of SoFI.

- Avenger & Legionnaire are the best creatures in the deck and definitely deserve the 4-of status.

these are my thoughts so far on the deck. sure, it still needs some tweaking, but the core of the deck is really excellent and if i hadn't screwed up, i would probably have been top 8 now.

hagar852

03-23-2007, 02:00 PM