[Deck] Golden Gun (B/w Reanimator)

[Bane of the Living]

Edited 12/13/06

This deck is based off a face value shitty card. So beware but dont hit the back button.

Pull from Eternity
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=42659
Go ahead look it up.

This card is essentially Entomb, except not banned. It just needs a small amount of work done first.

// Mana 20
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
3 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

// Creatures 12
4 Putrid Imp
2 Razia, Boros Archangel
4 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2 Simic Sky Swallower

// Spells 28
4 Reanimate
2 Necromancy
3 Exhume
4 Pull from Eternity
4 Serum Powder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ancestral Knowledge
3 Tainted Pact


// Sideboard 15
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

Look complicated? It is. Everything however, works together beautifully. Card explanations..

The mana..
Added blue sources currently to accomidate for new spash. Three are necessary to avoid RFG'ing all blue sources. A mox and good ol ritual help turbo you out.

Razia, Akroma
They're big, theyre bad, they have haste. They also get swords pointed at them alot so just play them carefully. Its never a bad thing to gain 6 life and just Pull from Eternity back the poor bastard.

SSS
Big and bad as well. No haste, no vigilance, but he gets the job done if you give him time. Cant be killed, ever.

Putrid Imp
For more reliable ways to get creatures in the yard. 1-3 Damage from Imp seals the deal a turn quicker when Akroma comes out. Sac to therapy for anti contol/combo and protection.

The engine..
Tainted Pact and Ancestral Knowledge not only tutor for your reanimation spells but serve the roll of RFG. You can Pact for Reanimate and rgf a creature while doing so. Turning Pull into Entomb.. Easy, effective.

Cabal Therapy provides combo protection/disruption or can pitch a creature to the yard when used on yourself.. It can later be pulled back should you want to flashback with imp.

Reanimate/Necromancy/Exhume
Reanimate is god. Cheap cheap cheap. Ill take the life loss gladly. Necromancy is played for its instant speed while Exhume rounds out the rest.

Pull from Eternity/Serum Powder
Pull is what gives this verison of reanimator a nice touch. It does silly things with the aforementioned tutors and even stupider things with Serum Powder. The classic hate method for reanimator is Tormods Crypt. Now that card is laughable. Pull your Akroma eot and let loose her rage on those crypt loving mf'ers. Like I already mentioned it works against opposing Swords to Plowshares quite well.

Serum Powder is powerful. It lets you put all your chips on the table and skulp that beautiful hand. Thus the name of the deck. Turn one akroma happens alot more with this card on your side. RFG'ing a fatty makes half the necromancers work accomplished.

The sideboard is simple. Darkblast against gobs, stp against lackey and meddling mage. Leyline against loam, iggy, and thresh. Duress vs FoW.

As of now this deck is under construction not testing. Im looking for more ideas in this thread. There are many many cards that have to do with RFG.

Here are some sample plays..

Turn one- land, imp, mox, reanimate.

Turn one- land, ritual, therapy;pitch akroma, exhume

Turn one- land, therapy;pitch akroma.
Turn two- land, exhume

Turn one- Serum Powder-> land, mox, pull akroma, reanimate

Turn one- Serum Powder-> land, ritual, imp;pitch akroma, exhume.

Turn one- land, ritual, therapy;disrupt, tainted pact;rfg akroma;find pull.
Turn two- land, pull, reanimate.

Very consistant! Proxy the deck up and see. Mulligan like a little bitch because the more you push the more busted your hands become. Its easy to win games where you happen to chain 2-3 Serum Powders or so.

[Finn]

Damn I love this idea.

How about Chrome Mox? Or hell, anything with imprint.

What I love best here - Tormod's Crypt and company can kiss your ass. Still, it does seem to have some limitations. It is a little more convoluted, but this deserves some thought.

[Cavius The Great]

I don't think this deck would work. There's too much that it needs to do and it's trying to do all these things at once. It's also a 3 card combo that's based around reanimating a single creature.

[Eldariel]

I'd try for effects like Exhume and Necromancy that allow you to choose the card to reanimate as they come into play rather than targeting, since with them, you can have opponent activate Tormod's Crypt and in response, Pull from Eternity back whatever you were going to reanimate, still getting use from the reanimation effect on the stack.

[Geet]

I goldfished this a few times and overall I'm pretty impressed with both the speed and consistency of the combo. Here are my observations, though...



Avatar of Discord
Im playing this over Putrid Imp because he actually kills your opponent. A turn one avatar can often go the distance against foes not prepared.

Avatar of Discard is just way too much card disadvantage when he gets STP'ed/bolted/etc if you don't have a fatty to discard with him (which happens a lot). Also, I really don't want to waste my ritual pushing this guy into play since he's so easily removed. I'd rather do something like ritual, imp/therapy, exhume Akroma on Turn 1 than play this guy.



The engine..
Tainted Pact and Spoils of the Vault not only tutor for your reanimation spells but serve the roll of RFG. You can Spoils eot for necromancy and rgf the target to Pull. Or Spoils for Pull. Easy, effective.

Pact and Spoils do not belong in the same deck. Pact wants diversity; Spoils wants redundancy. Also, life loss from Spoils often exceeds 10. Now, I'm supposed to spend 8 life reanimating Akroma, so I can die by the hands of a lone fanatic? It's just too problematic.

I have made the following changes:
-4 Avatar of Discord
+4 Putrid Imp

-4 Spoils of the Vault
-2 Necromancy
+4 Exhume
+1 Buried Alive
+1 ??? need something <3 mana that gets dudes in the yard

Spoils seemed the better tutor to nix due to it's random suicide factor. However, losing the tutoring power required more redundancy in reanimation spells, so I added a set of Exhumes and another Buried alive. I dropped the Necromancies down to 2 b/c of their casting cost.

The deck actually works really well, and I don't see how you can lose to any aggro deck game 1. There's been some suggestions of taking out Reanimate, but they're just too good! I often use extras to snag opponents dudes to use as chump blockers if a really fast aggro player tries desperately to race.

[Cavius The Great]

Avatar of Discard is just way too much card disadvantage when he gets STP'ed/bolted/etc if you don't have a fatty to discard with him (which happens a lot). Also, I really don't want to waste my ritual pushing this guy into play since he's so easily removed. I'd rather do something like ritual, imp/therapy, exhume Akroma on Turn 1 than play this guy.

Avatar can do some damage against Soldarity though. It applies pressure on them and they basically can't bounce him till the third or fourth turn via Cunning Wish+bounce spell.

[Bane of the Living]

I goldfished this a few times and overall I'm pretty impressed with both the speed and consistency of the combo. Here are my observations, though...


Avatar of Discard is just way too much card disadvantage when he gets STP'ed/bolted/etc if you don't have a fatty to discard with him (which happens a lot). Also, I really don't want to waste my ritual pushing this guy into play since he's so easily removed. I'd rather do something like ritual, imp/therapy, exhume Akroma on Turn 1 than play this guy.


Pact and Spoils do not belong in the same deck. Pact wants diversity; Spoils wants redundancy. Also, life loss from Spoils often exceeds 10. Now, I'm supposed to spend 8 life reanimating Akroma, so I can die by the hands of a lone fanatic? It's just too problematic.

I have made the following changes:
-4 Avatar of Discord
+4 Putrid Imp

-4 Spoils of the Vault
-2 Necromancy
+4 Exhume
+1 Buried Alive
+1 ??? need something <3 mana that gets dudes in the yard

Spoils seemed the better tutor to nix due to it's random suicide factor. However, losing the tutoring power required more redundancy in reanimation spells, so I added a set of Exhumes and another Buried alive. I dropped the Necromancies down to 2 b/c of their casting cost.

The deck actually works really well, and I don't see how you can lose to any aggro deck game 1. There's been some suggestions of taking out Reanimate, but they're just too good! I often use extras to snag opponents dudes to use as chump blockers if a really fast aggro player tries desperately to race.

Avatar is a threat in itself unlike Imp. Its worth paying 2 more mana for the investment. The problem like you said is having the 2 correct cards. Try pitching Spoils if you have Reanimate in hand or vise versa. Pitch mid game rituals, lotus petals, and serum powders. You can easily beat a deck like Solidarity when you happen to open with 5 power on the table.

I need another tutor if Im to cut Spoils. The 2 reasons I dont want to are..
1) Its ONE mana.
2) Its an instant.

The only reason to consider it cut is the life loss. Yet with decks such as Landstill or Solidarity you can easily go to very little life. How much did Reanimate and Spoils bump head?

Dont forget, if your mulliganing agressive enough with powders your really thinning the shit out of your deck. Pay attention to what's already been rfg'd with powders and name accordingly. Spoils and Therapy make this a very skill intensive deck. Practice.

Plunge into Darkness might be an ok replacement for Spoils but its still a life loss issue. Im trying to focus on another tutor/rfg card. Maybe that tutor, someone help me out here.. 2 mana name a card, rfg the top 6 and put the named in hand..?

I thought about Chrome Mox in the beginning but imprinting a animation target will never give you black mana. It will however give you pull mana. Ill have to try it out. Maybe it can replace lotus petals.

Oh and its not a 3 card combo. Pull just happens to make reanimator into even more of a combo deck. You can still do the ol one two classic pitch and animate easily.

[Cavius The Great]

Plunge into Darkness might be an ok replacement for Spoils but its still a life loss issue.

Have you thought about Desperate Research? It would seem like a really hot replacement plus there's no life loss. It also removes the cards from the game making it extra sexy.

[Bane of the Living]

Thats the card I was thinking of. I wish it was instant speed though. Are there any?

[Cavius The Great]

Thats the card I was thinking of. I wish it was instant speed though. Are there any?

sorcery speed is about as good as your going to get. If it was an instant I'd be alot more broken. A hell of a lot more. Why does it need to be instant speed anyways? Element of surprise or what?

[kicks_422]

You were thinking about Demonic Consultation? It's banned in legacy though... It's creature counterpart Divining Witch is a bit too slow though, as it's a creature... Maybe try Desperate Research? Outside of crazy Relentless rats decks, that card might find a home here... I'll replace the Spoils with that and see how it works out...

I also would try to fit in another "pitch" card to remove your creatures from the game... Seeing as most of your creatures are white, a quick search finds Scars of the Veteran, Shining Shoal, and Sunscour, all of which could be very handy in aggro situations... I don't know if it's needed though...

I agree with the suggestion for Chrome Mox, it seems like a perfect hit here, I don't know if it could replace Dark Rituals though...

I like the concept, I'm going to load this up and work on it... :D

[Moczoc]

Chrome Mox is just broken in this deck. Imagine the following: Turn1 play Chrome mox (remove Akroma), tap mox and pull her back, then swamp and reanimate :cool:
Anyway, with other card in the starting hand, it gives you speed.

Maybe cut Petals for it.

I would change the creature base too:

from:
// Creatures 12
4 Avatar of Discord
2 Razia, Boros Archangel
4 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2 Simic Sky Swallower

to:
// Creatures 12
3 Avatar of Discord
1 Putrid Imp
2 Spirit of the Night (or Razia ... depends on meta)
3 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Simic Sky Swallower

SSS is really needed playing against stupid removal, and when drawing 2 Avatar of D. it's never possible to play both :(

[Bane of the Living]

Yea Chrome shouldve been in there in the first place. Time to edit. Razia seems a bit better at the moment but I might increase the number of animate targets anyways. Does 8 feel right to everyone playing around with it?

[kicks_422]

8 has always been enough for me in every reanimator deck I've ever tried, and I've tried a lot... :tongue:

And if you can get some, Thunder Dragons are great reanimator targets, even MD material in aggro-infested metas... They're really hard to track down, though...

[Bane of the Living]

I pulled spoils out of the deck. It lost a small amount of consistancy but the aggro matchup isnt so swingy. Reanimate is much more worth the life loss. Research randomly doesnt work unless you've used serum powders to set you up, just remember that and play it accordingly.

I wish I could get my hands on some Thunder Dragons but Nishoba can probably handle aggro just fine.

[MattH]

First off: this is very clever! Applause.

Second: I would go up to 4 Chrome Mox and 4 Scrubland, dropping one or more Godless Shrines. Reason: because of fetchlands, you will never ever be casting Tainted Pact with four Scrublands still in the deck, and it's okay to have a couple four-ofs and Chrome Mox is about as good in this deck as it's likely to ever get. Might as well make full use of it.

I have extreme doubts about Desperate Research, especially in a deck built to optimize Tainted Pact. I've tried Research even in decks comprised of tons of 4-ofs, and it almost always came up trash. I can't imagine it being any good here. Once you have one or two fatties RFG'd, you don't really want any more, since you'd have to have multiple Pulls for them to be useful.

[Mirrislegend]

I think Desperate Research could stay as a 1 or 2 of. Being a sorcery limits its power, and MattH has a solid point.

Speaking of MattH's point, I forgot: awesome idea! innovative, strong, and with solid potential. rock on

[Zilla]

This is a clever idea and it looks like it could be quite viable. Do you have any outs to an opponent's Leyline of the Void though?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Some Left Field (bad) ideas:
Body Snatcher
When Body Snatcher comes into play, you may discard a creature card from your hand. If you don’t, remove Body Snatcher from the game. When Body Snatcher is put into a graveyard from play, remove Body Snatcher from the game and return target creature card from your graveyard to play.

Contagion - removes card from the game

Ill gotten gains - dumps your hand in exchange for business

Unmask - see contagion.

[DieMyDarling]

Well Contagion and Unmask have to remove a black card and the creatures he wants to remove are not black. If u switch razia to spirit of the night ( what i wouldnt do) u perhaps can play it.

To the deck:
Is the therapy in the mainboard better then duress? I mean the Flashback cant be played very often if u dont want to sac akroma... So i would exchange that or cut the avatar for zombie infestation which makes tokens for the flashback

[Cavius The Great]

This is a clever idea and it looks like it could be quite viable. Do you have any outs to an opponent's Leyline of the Void though?

Yea, Pull from Eternity. :wink:

[xsockmonkeyx]

Yea, Pull from Eternity. :wink:

No dice.

Oracle Text:
If Leyline of the Void is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it in play.
If a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard, remove it from the game instead.

[Geet]

To the deck:
Is the therapy in the mainboard better then duress? I mean the Flashback cant be played very often if u dont want to sac akroma... So i would exchange that or cut the avatar for zombie infestation which makes tokens for the flashback

Therapy allows you to target yourself to discard a fatty. Always, always run therapy over duress in a reanimator deck. Although, if you have room, you should run both (this deck does NOT have room)

[Aggro_zombies]

No dice.

Oracle Text:
If Leyline of the Void is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it in play.
If a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard, remove it from the game instead.
Agreed. If you attempt to use PfE to get a dude into your yard from the RFG zone, it'll go right back there because of the Leyline's replacement effect. That's why I think this deck needs Disenchant in the board, because discard isn't going to cut it against Leyline.

[valor]

What do you guys think about Hide/Seek in here? Obviously for Seek, but its a Tutor and huge life gain for and Akroma or something, and it can also be used for its intended purpose on the opponent

[Daze]

What do you guys think about Hide/Seek in here? Obviously for Seek, but its a Tutor and huge life gain for and Akroma or something, and it can also be used for its intended purpose on the opponent

Seek: Search target opponent's library for a card and remove that card from the game. You gain life equal to its converted mana cost. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Since it says opponent, it doesn't work.
As for the deck, it's really a great idea, although I wouldn't want to rely on the Pull that much. If your way of getting a beater into the grave is Pull, what do you do vs gy-hate. And removing Spoils is a wise choice-you will lose about 12 life by tutoring a 4-off. Means you are dead if you cast a Reanimate...
Unmask seems great, since you get Disruption and beater to RFG in one card. Still, that again relies on Pull. Exhume is much better than the targeted reanimators imho; gy-hate does not work against Exhume if you have a PfE in your hand.
Avatar vs Imp- Avatar is indeed very situational, if you don't have beaters to discard, it sucks, because it's drawback is definitly too crippeling- STP/Bolt and your opponent just trade 3vs1. Imp can be needled, but that's were you can go Chrome Mox-> Pull, for example.

[Bane of the Living]

First off, thanks for interest in the deck.

@Daze
Unmask was a card I considered really early on, however the pitched card needs to be black. Even if Razia was turnt into Spirit of the Night it still wouldnt make it worth it. I understand what you mean with Exhume I think the yard hate dodging effect will probably pay off more than the instant speed animate effects. Avatar still seems very effective, I like the fact it eats swords for my akromas. This is something I want more input on.

@Aggro_zombies
The deck probably does need a disenchant effect. Im not sure how to include it, but the only real problem card seems to be Leyline. So as of now I'll sb my disenchants.

@DieMyDarling
ZI is a good card but this version of Reanimator isnt running Squee, and mulligans the shit out of its hand, also playing Chrome Mox. My hand gets small fast, and I dont see myself getting more than one activation of this thing.

[despo]

First of all: great idea.

But as stated above, I think you rely too much on pull from eternity, you can only play 4 of them and even if you see one every game thanks to your tutors, people can handle it quite easily (counterspells, discard or just swords your akroma after you pulled her back and reanimated). Perhaps it is better to play this more as a standard reanimator-deck, with pull from eternity as additional tech. Buried alive should be in there, so you can use your pulls to answer hate or get better use out of serum powder/chrome mox.

[Bane of the Living]

First of all: great idea.

But as stated above, I think you rely too much on pull from eternity, you can only play 4 of them and even if you see one every game thanks to your tutors, people can handle it quite easily (counterspells, discard or just swords your akroma after you pulled her back and reanimated). Perhaps it is better to play this more as a standard reanimator-deck, with pull from eternity as additional tech. Buried alive should be in there, so you can use your pulls to answer hate or get better use out of serum powder/chrome mox.

I dont know why everyone says it looks like it relies on PfE too much. The card is simply in the deck. Otherwise its classic reanimator with Serum Powder to fix your hand and tutors to fetch pieces. Buried Alive is unneeded because you can draw into and discard fatties easily and you have the Pull/Powder engine.

[valor]

Seek: Search target opponent's library for a card and remove that card from the game. You gain life equal to its converted mana cost. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Haha wow that sucks findmagiccards.com says its player lol. I was so excited at at 3 in the morning reading that too. Too bad, that would have been a sick card in here too.

I proxied this up and tested it a lot today, I found that its just too inconsistent. Sometimes I get the turn 1 Akroma or something, but generally I'm just slowly decking myself hoping for something cool to happen.
I added Angel of Despair to replace one of the Akromas, also can deal with problem cards quite well. One of the issues that I found was mana. 12 or 13 lands just isn't enough to support this deck. I can usually win with 2 mana available but what about wasteland, etc. Moxes are good but sometimes they stop making mana (Pull).
I'm trying out Infernal Tutor in here, because I noticed an empty hand pretty often, with Avatar and Imp and Therapy. The tutoring is really important for this deck to help with the inconsistency.
Another issue is the card draw, which is really needed. My hand winds up empty way too much, which also leads to inconsistency. Options that came to me were Night's Whisper, but the deck is already life hungry, and Dark Confidant, which again is bad becausae of that fatties. I think that's what we really need here.

[TorpidNinja]

I hate to necro anything but, for being so fascinating, this thread got buried quickly.

Bane: I was curious if you've tested your "engine" around a Salvagers shell? It seems like, in lieu of having access to Entomb, this might work really well and win the game far more efficiently than a huge beater. Furthermore, there's the potential to actually cast your win condition should the need arise (Mox/Petal and Rituals.)

[Bane of the Living]

I hate to necro anything but, for being so fascinating, this thread got buried quickly.

Bane: I was curious if you've tested your "engine" around a Salvagers shell? It seems like, in lieu of having access to Entomb, this might work really well and win the game far more efficiently than a huge beater. Furthermore, there's the potential to actually cast your win condition should the need arise (Mox/Petal and Rituals.)

I had not.. Thats a really good idea though. The problem with the deck was after all that digging and work a well placed Swords could ruin you. The problem with this idea is Serum Powder or Tainted Pact could rfg combo pieces such as Spellbomb, the deck would be difficult to construct. Proposed list?

[deadlock]

What about abusing Prot. Black Creatures with Animate Dead and the like..

Maybe worth it?

[Cait_Sith]

Since the idea is to get the creature INTO play, not have it run around in your graveyard or hand, cards like Animate Dead would not work with a Pro-Black dude.

[Gocho]

I'm from Spain, so... Sorry for my english :tongue:

I don't have test the deck, but I'll proxy it this weekend.

Why "2 Necromancy"? You can't use it with Akroma. If you need 9 reanimate spells you can use 4 reanimate + 4 exhume + 1 Life // Death. It's not the best option, but 2 mana it's cheap.

About the tutors.

I think that you don't have enough life points to spend in reanimate and Plunge into Darkness. How many LP do you spend on PiD usually? 4? 5? 10? It's a lot of life!

Tainted Pact it's a bad option. You need to have different cards to make it good not 4-ofs as you have.

Desperate Research requires that you "name the card" before search for it. If you need a Pull it's ok, but if you need another thing. What card do you name? Reanimate? Exhume? Life//Death? Akroma? Razia? SSS? You could RFG two exhume because you named reanimate wrongly.

I think that BLUE could give you what the deck needs. And, has I learned playing UGW Threeshold, your mana base can be easily fixed to manage 3 correlative colors. You only need that all your mana give black (some scrublands and Underground Sea), the fetchs could be the same. Some cards examples:
Ancestral Knowledge. 1U
http://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Weatherlight/Ancestral_Knowledge.jpg

Pros: Low cost (1U), look 10 cards, remove CHOOSEN cards from game, could give you 2 (or more if you have mana) cards instead of one, no life cost.
Cons: Sorcery speed, doesn't put a card in your hand so card disadventage. If the oponent disenchant it you get nothing but RFG cards. You need to pay at least (1) on your upkeep to get the card.

But I think that could be better that the choosen tutors. As I say I must test it.

The "look 4/5 top cards pack".
With Plunge into Darkness you have to pay life for do the same that this cards. You can pay more than 4/5 life but I think that you don't want to do it if you are going to cast Reanimate on Akroma and never if you must reanimate/exhume it twice. This cards don't remove from the game anything, but with 4 Serum Powder + 4 Ancestral Knowledge... who needs more RFG cards? They have Swords and Tormods', remember?

Trickery Charm
Pros: Low cost (U), instant.
Cons: Only look 4 cards, don't put the card into your hand

Spy Network
Pros: Low cost (U), look opponent hand so you know how to play, instant.
Cons: Only looks 4 cards, doesn't put the card into your hand

Sage of Epityr
Pros: Low cost (U), it's creature so you can stop first turn lackey. You can combine 4 of it with Diabolic Intent + 4 putrid imp.
Cons: Only looks 4 cards, doesn't put the card into your hand, sorcery speed.

Peer Through Depths
Pros: Instant. Looks 5 cards. Put the card into your hand.
Cons: Only get sorcery & instants (all your cards are sorcery/instans or creatures) . You must to reveal the card. Normal cost (1U).

Index
Pros: Low cost (U), Looks 5 cards.
Cons: Doesn't put the card into your hand. Sorcery Speed.

Impulse
Pros: Put the card into your hand. Instant.
Cons: Only looks 4 cards. Normal cost (1U).

Diabolic Vision
Pros: Looks 5 cards. Put the card into your hand.
Cons: Doble cost (UB). Sorcery Speed.

And my favorite, Lim-Dul's Vault:
Pros: Looks 5 cards for every 1 life point you pay, so you always find the wanted card/s. Instant.
Cons: Doble cost (UB). Doesn't put the card into your hand.

http://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Onslaught/Trickery_Charm.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Onslaught/Spy_Network.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/TimeSpiral/Sage_of_Epityr.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/ChampionsofKamigawa/PeerThroughDepths.jpg
http://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Apocalypse/Index.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Visions/Impulse.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/IceAge/Diabolic_Vision.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/ai/192.jpg

And finally. Why the ASAP tactics? Why not the toolbox with some different creature vs some decks? (Phantom Nishoba or Bogardan Hellkite vs Aggro, Crosis the Purger vs Solidarity, etc...)

[Cait_Sith]

Thus far not ONE tutor you have listed can be put into this deck wiouth making a number of alterations ot its mana base. This is B/w, not B/u.

[deadlock]

Kk,

i think i have to elaborate a little bit more.
First of Animate Dead and Dance of the Dead DOES work with Prot Black Dudes.

Therefore i made the following changes:
-3 Exhume
- Necromancy
+4 Animate Dead
+1 Dance of the Dead

-2 Razzia
-2 SSS
+4 SotN

I dont like Razzia that much, because she dies to a single Bolt. She will be tapped most of the time, so you cant use her ability.
SSS is good, but too slow and not black.

Other issuses:
-You wrote about 20 Mana Sources, but i can only find 19. One Swamp added.

- Avatar of Discord looks good, but imo Putrid Imp is Superior, because of the following reasons:
-1cc Mana, makes the first turn animation much more likely
-Permanent discard outlet.
-Fodder to Cabal Therapy Flashback.
Therefore i removed AoD and added two more Imps.

-Tutor and RFG Engine could be better, but i have no concrete suggestions. I wouldnt recommend adding blue. B/w is fine.
Maybe one or two Soul Spikes could help the deck, they rfg 2 (black) cards, deal with creatures, gives life in a life-hungry deck and make the three-attack then win more likely. On the other hand it is a lot of card card disadvantede. Thoughts?
Too bad we dont have Demonic Consultation, it would be nuts in here :tongue:

Overall i like the deck/ idea, Reanimator was always muligan heavy and Serum Powder is a nice addition. :smile:

[Cait_Sith]

I checked Gatherer and Animate Dead is almost unequivacalloy better than any other animation spell when it comes to Pro-Black dudes. What is SotN by the way?

Also, try to keep one SSS in if you can, they are immune to all targeted removal as well as being excellent beaters.

[TorpidNinja]

Cait Sith: a) maybe the deck should be 3 colours; Ancestral Knowledge is a really interesting idea that should be tested. b) Spirit of the Night

Gocho: good find, a really interesting suggestion. The idea of either tutoring for Knowledge in order to stack your deck removes a great deal of cards from the game, which lessens the life loss we're dealing with right now.

Deadlock: you are competely right; Pro Black creatures can be successfully animated by the Black reanimation enchantments. End of story.

I love the: Chome Mox (imprinting Akroma), Pull, and Reanimate. Utterly unlikely, but sounds great in theory.

[Gocho]

Thus far not ONE tutor you have listed can be put into this deck wiouth making a number of alterations ot its mana base. This is B/w, not B/u.

I know that I don't speak english very well but I said this:



I think that BLUE could give you what the deck needs. And, has I learned playing UGW Threeshold, your mana base can be easily fixed to manage 3 correlative colors. You only need that all your mana give black (some scrublands and Underground Sea), the fetchs could be the same.

The deck is B/W, and I suggest to do it B/U/W

[3eowulf]

First, congratulations for the idea, it's great!

Second, ever thought of Angel of Despair? Sure it's slow and targetable, but a vindicate could be useful. And it works with black pitch spells too.

Btw, deadlock's point on Putrid Imp vs. Avatar of Discord is really valid.

[Cait_Sith]

I know that I don't speak english very well but I said this:



The deck is B/W, and I suggest to do it B/U/W

Yea, reading is tech, but the fact that you are asking for a major alteration to the mana base in return for slightly better tutors is rarely worth it.

[Rastadon]

I dont like Razzia that much, because she dies to a single Bolt. She will be tapped most of the time, so you cant use her ability.


Tapped most of the time...how? She's got vigilance, so she can attack, defend, and use her save herself ability.



- Avatar of Discord looks good, but imo Putrid Imp is Superior, because of the following reasons:
-1cc Mana, makes the first turn animation much more likely
-Permanent discard outlet.
-Fodder to Cabal Therapy Flashback.
Therefore i removed AoD and added two more Imps.


Permanent discard outlet...You only need to discard a game winning creature once, so AoD and and Imp are equal here. AoD can also be Therapy fodder, no distinct advantage there. You do have a point about it being much cheaper, but Discord is a freakin' game winner. 4 swings from him and you've won, he flies, and he's not even graveyard dependent which means you can pursue an entirely alternate strategy to mess your opponent up. All in all, choose AoD if you want a back up plan, but choose Imp if you want to be quicker.

I think that a blue splash is entirely possible. The only white card in the deck that you actually cast is Pull, so it's a very easy fix. -1 Scrubland +1 Underground Sea. Ancestral Memories is genius for this deck, and stands beside Tainted Pact as the best possible tutors for the deck.

[Bane of the Living]

I'm from Spain, so... Sorry for my english :tongue:

I don't have test the deck, but I'll proxy it this weekend.

Why "2 Necromancy"? You can't use it with Akroma. If you need 9 reanimate spells you can use 4 reanimate + 4 exhume + 1 Life // Death. It's not the best option, but 2 mana it's cheap.

About the tutors.

I think that you don't have enough life points to spend in reanimate and Plunge into Darkness. How many LP do you spend on PiD usually? 4? 5? 10? It's a lot of life!

Tainted Pact it's a bad option. You need to have different cards to make it good not 4-ofs as you have.

Desperate Research requires that you "name the card" before search for it. If you need a Pull it's ok, but if you need another thing. What card do you name? Reanimate? Exhume? Life//Death? Akroma? Razia? SSS? You could RFG two exhume because you named reanimate wrongly.

I think that BLUE could give you what the deck needs. And, has I learned playing UGW Threeshold, your mana base can be easily fixed to manage 3 correlative colors. You only need that all your mana give black (some scrublands and Underground Sea), the fetchs could be the same. Some cards examples:
Ancestral Knowledge. 1U
http://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Weatherlight/Ancestral_Knowledge.jpg

Pros: Low cost (1U), look 10 cards, remove CHOOSEN cards from game, could give you 2 (or more if you have mana) cards instead of one, no life cost.
Cons: Sorcery speed, doesn't put a card in your hand so card disadventage. If the oponent disenchant it you get nothing but RFG cards. You need to pay at least (1) on your upkeep to get the card.

But I think that could be better that the choosen tutors. As I say I must test it.

The "look 4/5 top cards pack".
With Plunge into Darkness you have to pay life for do the same that this cards. You can pay more than 4/5 life but I think that you don't want to do it if you are going to cast Reanimate on Akroma and never if you must reanimate/exhume it twice. This cards don't remove from the game anything, but with 4 Serum Powder + 4 Ancestral Knowledge... who needs more RFG cards? They have Swords and Tormods', remember?

Trickery Charm
Pros: Low cost (U), instant.
Cons: Only look 4 cards, don't put the card into your hand

Spy Network
Pros: Low cost (U), look opponent hand so you know how to play, instant.
Cons: Only looks 4 cards, doesn't put the card into your hand

Sage of Epityr
Pros: Low cost (U), it's creature so you can stop first turn lackey. You can combine 4 of it with Diabolic Intent + 4 putrid imp.
Cons: Only looks 4 cards, doesn't put the card into your hand, sorcery speed.

Peer Through Depths
Pros: Instant. Looks 5 cards. Put the card into your hand.
Cons: Only get sorcery & instants (all your cards are sorcery/instans or creatures) . You must to reveal the card. Normal cost (1U).

Index
Pros: Low cost (U), Looks 5 cards.
Cons: Doesn't put the card into your hand. Sorcery Speed.

Impulse
Pros: Put the card into your hand. Instant.
Cons: Only looks 4 cards. Normal cost (1U).

Diabolic Vision
Pros: Looks 5 cards. Put the card into your hand.
Cons: Doble cost (UB). Sorcery Speed.

And my favorite, Lim-Dul's Vault:
Pros: Looks 5 cards for every 1 life point you pay, so you always find the wanted card/s. Instant.
Cons: Doble cost (UB). Doesn't put the card into your hand.

http://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Onslaught/Trickery_Charm.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Onslaught/Spy_Network.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/TimeSpiral/Sage_of_Epityr.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/ChampionsofKamigawa/PeerThroughDepths.jpg
http://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Apocalypse/Index.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/Visions/Impulse.jpghttp://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/IceAge/Diabolic_Vision.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/ai/192.jpg

And finally. Why the ASAP tactics? Why not the toolbox with some different creature vs some decks? (Phantom Nishoba or Bogardan Hellkite vs Aggro, Crosis the Purger vs Solidarity, etc...)

Ancestral Knowledge looks pretty bombtastic for what we're trying to do. Tutoring 10 cards deep at no life loss and rfg'ing 9 other cards is amazing. Along with Powder and mox it might be all we need for rfg cards. The stretch on the mana base might be tough but it might just as well be worth the benifits.

There are only good points on Imp vs Avatar at this point and I think Ill stick with the imp mostly for his cheap cheap cost and therapy synergy.

The toolbox thing doesnt work real well with the creatures only because we arent focused on Intuition or Buried Alive, we take what we get with what we draw/pull.

Angel of Despair I dont think Ill be needing. What does she need to kill? Id rather have an unstoppable shorter clock on the table. Besides this goes along with the more toolbox approach that the deck cant maintain.

Spirit of the Night isnt as bad ass as I wish it was for one reason. No vigilance, this is a big deal in the world of legacy. Razia can swing, block, AND redirect even more damage. No one really plays bolt and if they do have red mana, the only thing I'll tap her for is to prevent that lethal. If they spend 2 removal spells on her its not a big deal as I will gain ca that way and just animate something else. Spirit is only 5 toughness, 2 removal spells spell the same demise.

Now in regards to the salvagers shell.. I havent given much thought to that besides a rough skeleton list. Here it is.

// Mana 20
1 Swamp
3 Scrubland
1 Savanah
1 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

// Creatures 6
3 Aurok Salvagers
3 Gamekeeper

// Spells 34
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Pull from Eternity
4 Serum Powder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Plunge into Darkness
4 Tainted Pact
4 Lions Eye Diamond
3 Pyrite Spellbomb

There are some obvious issues with this path. You could rfg the wrong cards, such as LED, Pyrite, green mana to cast keeper, ect. What I like is that the instant win is there. You still have the simple salvagers combo of the ritual -> turn two keeper, but you probably have much more consistancy thanks to the powder/pull combo. I need to try it out and see. It might be too bazaar.

In the mean time Ill update the first page with a new list yielding our friend Ancestral Knowledge.

[deadlock]

Just some quick replies.

I totally ignored Vigilance on Razzia, i mixed it up with something like Flanking :rolleyes:
This makes a huge difference indeed.

I goldfished some hands and i had the Chome Mox -> remove creature play more often than you would think. I noticed the lack of lands sometimes, so i cut the Plunge Into Darkness for three more Lands.
Tainted Pact on the other hand i liked very much, despite of these many 4of's.

Good points on Avatar of Discord, but still i dont know if i should reinclude him.
He would be stronger with something like Squee i think.

[Bane of the Living]

Avatar is much better when running Orloves Squee Reanimator or another such similar build. It still may turn out good in the sideboard since it makes the deck less dependant on the reanimation process, giving you a simple 5/3 flying body.

[Gocho]

Angel of Despair I dont think Ill be needing. What does she need to kill? Id rather have an unstoppable shorter clock on the table. Besides this goes along with the more toolbox approach that the deck cant maintain.


I'ld put it in Sideboard. Solitary confinement and Worship don't play a lot but it's only 1 slot.

What do you think about sideboard?
Must include reanimate targets vs some decks or another tactic?

[Bane of the Living]

Speaking of sideboards.. Holy shit, GEMSTONE CAVERNS. This is the deck it goes in. Im not sure if its worth running md or just side for games your on the draw. What do you guys think?


I'ld put it in Sideboard. Solitary confinement and Worship don't play a lot but it's only 1 slot.

What do you think about sideboard?
Must include reanimate targets vs some decks or another tactic?

In my meta I dont care about those cards. If they're heavily played in your's go for it. I dont like the idea of toolbox reanimate targets very much since this deck isnt playing Intuition or Buried Alive. Although a little gem known as Kaervek the Merciless has been brought to my attention. I can only imagine getting him into play turn one against something like Solidarity.

Speaking of sideboards.. Holy shit, GEMSTONE CAVERNS. This is the deck it goes in. Im not sure if its worth running md or just side for games your on the draw. What do you guys think?

[Gocho]

Gemstone Caverns
Legendary Land
If Gemstone Caverns is in your opening hand and you're not playing first, you may begin the game with Gemstone Caverns in play with a luck counter on it. If you do, remove a card in your hand from the game.
{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool. If Gemstone Caverns has a luck counter on it, instead add one mana of any color to your mana pool.


I think that Chrome Mox does the same function.

Yo can Play both in your first turn + another land.
Both of them remove a card from your hand.
Both of them gives mana. Gemstone any color, Mox only one color.

Mox doesn't need to "be in your opening hand" AND "not playing first" to work. Caverns needs to be. If you draw your 8th card and it's a chrome mox you can combo. If it's a Caverns you can't.

Do you think that the deck need 5-6 chrome mox? it's your card, but Cavern is weaker than Mox

[Cavius The Great]

I really think that reanimator needs to choose "draw" instead of "play" on the principle that you basically skip a turn without playing a land and discard a fatty and reanimate it next turn. Gemstone Caverns actually reinforces this theory and makes it a much feasible decision.

[Finn]

BotL, I thought that I should mention that Ancestral Knowledge has an excellent side effect with Perilous Research, Oblation, Claws of Gix, etc. The trick is in the stack abuse. But you can completely avoid the upkeep that way.

Good luck with the new deck.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think that Chrome Mox does the same function.

Yo can Play both in your first turn + another land.
Both of them remove a card from your hand.
Both of them gives mana. Gemstone any color, Mox only one color.

Mox doesn't need to "be in your opening hand" AND "not playing first" to work. Caverns needs to be. If you draw your 8th card and it's a chrome mox you can combo. If it's a Caverns you can't.

Do you think that the deck need 5-6 chrome mox? it's your card, but Cavern is weaker than Mox

Opponent's Turn 1 - PfE
Your turn 1 - Exhume

Cha cha cha.

[Poron]

don't Sb cards count as removed from game? then use the Pull From Eternity to get an Akroma into graveyard from sb..

does it work?

[Atwa]

Nope it doesn't.

Card in your sideboard are RFG faced down. Your opponent can't see what cards you have in your graveyard.

I am not even sure SB cards are considered RFG, I think they are just cards you own outside the (current) game.

[Cait_Sith]

They are considered outside the game entirely. Otherwise cards like Burning Wish would be tournament jank.

[Bane of the Living]

This deck is proving very consistant at its mission of turn one Akroma. The decks problem cards seem to be Swords and Diabolic Edict. Swords we can handle with SSS. What do you guys suggest against Edict? Force of Nature maybe?

[kicks_422]

Maybe you were thinking Verdant Force instead?

Against Edicts, the best thing you can get is Symbiotic Wurm, I guess.

[Atwa]

Maybe you were thinking Verdant Force instead?

Against Edicts, the best thing you can get is Symbiotic Wurm, I guess.

If you think your opponenet will have multiple Edicts in 3 turns it is, but most of the time Edicts is a 1-off, played from the sideboard. If that is the case in your meta, you could also try Penumba Wurm, since if a deck plays with a Wishboard, Pyroclasm is also waiting for you (which kind of suckes when you have a shitload of 1/1 tokens).