[Deck] Dead Heads

[Mirrislegend]

Once upon a time, I came up with a half-way decent deck idea. It was basically Dark Thresh, in a Wild Zombies shell. However, the deck totally lacked any oomph, and soon lost my interest, and whatever interest others had in it. I later tried a few splashes into it, but nothing worked. The white splash was appealing, but there was nothing worth adding except StP. However, with the printing of Jotun Grunt, white had more to offer. Here is the current list, which will be continually updated:

// DeadHeads.dec

// Lands
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

// Creatures
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Wild Mongrel
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Spells
4 Mox Diamond
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Life from the Loam
2 Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Jotun Grunt
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 2 Dark Withering
SB: 2 Infest
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm


General Card explanations:
-Mongoose, Werebear: Beatsticks
-Mongrel: Beatz, discard outlet
-ZI: Beater maker, discard outlet
-Cabal Therapy: Good discard, great synergy with Dredge and ZI
-StP: Best removal in the game
-Squee: Discard fodder, infini-chump blocker during lategame


Specific explanations:
-Jotun Grunt: While this deck is dependant on the graveyard, by the time you would draw and play a grunt, you can more than handle the drawback. At that point he is threshed Werebear 5-6. He also provides some MD GY hate.
-Mox Diamond: Moves the deck's advancement up a full turn. This increases the deck's responses to a T1 Lackey, speeds up the clock, and allows it to start setting up for a long game (when necessary) earlier. It also provides some resistance to LD.
-Life from the Loam: This card is ridiculously good. It works wonders with fetches, cycling lands, ZI, mongrel, and especially Volrath's Stronghold
-Darkblast: Lackey killer, Confidant killer, and loves being in the GY.


Now obviously this deck is not perfected. There are many issues and things lacking. It's the main reason I'm making this thread. Here, specifically, are my concerns:
-This deck cries for Dark Confidant. It was in the original build, and I just totally forgot it when reconstructing this version. And now I cant find room. In my few test games, I found myself wishing for Confidant like nothing else. At bare minimum, he guaruntees a Zombie every turn.
-Ghastly Demise: see Dark Confidant
-Wasteland would rock in this deck, but I'm worried about colorless lands in a 3 color deck (even with LftL and Moxen)
-Mishra's Factory: see Wasteland
-Mana-base: I'm generally happy with it. But I need to dependably have a white mana for StP. And no moxen vs Goblins, and I have a bitch of a time getting white mana online.
-Jotun Grunt: I have no specific problems with Grunt. Rather, it's what he entails. Mongoose and Werebear loose their effectiveness, to a large degree, as does the rest of the deck, to a lesser degree.


SB:
The SB isnt really a concern of mine right now. But, for anyone who wants to tackle it, Infest really, probably, should be something else. And Dark Withering will probably be teh sex0rz vs all aggro. The rest should be self explanatory.


I know my list of issues is long and intimidating. But hopefully people can see the potential in this deck and offer their help. Thanks ahead of time for the advice.


p.s. Thanks for sticking through my ineloquence.

[MattH]

You could cut a Stronghold (it's legendary and when do you ever need a second and its a late-game card so you don't need it to show up early) for one of those lands, like Wasteland.

[outsideangel]

I'd put in Nantuko Monastery over Mishra's Factory, as Monastery can take out any of Gro's ground dudes. Alternatively, try a Treetop Village in place of one of the forests. Although the CIPT is harsh, it does add +1 win condition without -1 colored mana source. Finally, Riftstone Portal would be really random, but you've got plenty of discard outlets and it does smooth your color base.

[lolosoon]

For now I'm stuck with a B/G build packing Dark Confidant and more Cylcling Lands. Bob + LotL drawing redundancy make the deck runs smoothly early AND mid-late game (where your Confidant lies in the GY).

I can see the raw power of StP in the deck, but is the splash worth it (even if manascrew is not a pb with all the fetches, moxes and loam effect) ?

I mean, OK it's a great critter hoser but what are the matchups where the swords really shine ? (and where Ghastly demise or Darkblast can't be better : All i can see for now is Threshold packing Mystic Enforcers.)

I'm not fond with the sole Squee of your list. Without Survival to power him out of the deck is he really signifiant ? Why not drop it or add 2 more ?

Cards of interest i've been testing with good results are :
3x Eternal Witness (taking back ZI and works great with Volrath's Stronghold)
1x Cabal Pit (reusable removal "ala darkblast").
Gaea's Cradle could look worth the try but I never found it that useful.

@SB : I think Krosian Grisp > Naturalize and E. Explosives can be put in as a 2-3 of (in place of Dark Withering if you put back the Confidants), especially if you keep the White splash.

Really interesting list btw, I'll test it asap in MWS ^^

[Mirrislegend]

Nantuko Monastery! Thats the hawt secks tech I've been looking for. Great idea outsideangel.

@ lolosoon: Cabal Pit was in my way back original build. I forgot to re-introduce it. But I dont know how well it would fit in the three color version. But yes, it needs to go back in the 2 color version. Speaking of which:

I went back to the roots of the deck, and rebuilt the BG version. It's pretty solid. Take it for a spin, and you should be able to see, very quickly, what I mean about how it is a very tight list (making the decisions concerning splashing white very difficult):

// OriginalDeadHeads.dec

// Lands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
4 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Dark Confidant

// Spells
2 Darkblast
3 Life from the Loam
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Mox Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 2 Smother
SB: 2 City of Solitude

NB- The only things that are not rather absolute in the above list are: the lack of Cabal Pit, and the SB slots of 1x Darkblast, 2x Smother, and 2x City of Solitude

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On to the white splash version. Anyways, my terrible writing of the original post, is rather indicative of my thought process with the deck: I had no idea what I was doing.

So I figured I'd present this instead. Going from the B/G list above, how would people change it to fit in the white splash?

Said white splash will most likely include:
4x StP
1-2x Nantuko Monastery
2-3x Jotun Grunt (SB and MD total)
and anything else? suggestions please?

[Solpugid]

I personally am much more fond of the two-color version. I actually have a deck extremely similar to that, but I run more of a dredge engine to mill genesis. Sideboarding provides frog-lock if needed.

Jotun grunt is great, as is monastery, and of course StP is good. But I think all three of those cards split the focus of the deck a bit (except maybe swords), and do not justify weakening your manabase, however slightly.

As for suggestions, I have been incredibly fond of genesis in my build. I can't imagine it'd be much different for yours. Of course, I don't run confidant, and five hurts a lot.

Keep up the work, I'm really liking this deck.

Edit:
Thinking more about the white splash, I think I realize why I don't care for it: you lose confidant. Being able to draw a card and dredge on the same turn is fantastic, and I'm not sure if the awesomeness of grunt makes up for the swap.

I also don't really think 4 infestations is needed, but I have no idea what dropping one would do for the deck.

[Solpugid]

Sorry for the double post, but my last one didn't bring this thread to the top of the forums, and I was hoping discussion of this deck could continue.

[Mirrislegend]

Well, to put it bluntly, the first list I posted was crap. It was completely unrefined, nor playtested much at all. I think Confidant would stay in the 3 color version. But I just dont know how to fit everything. Got any decklist ideas? Anyone?

Also, I'm considering the following changes to the B/G version:
-1 Bayou
-1 Swamp
+1 Wasteland
+1 Cabal Pit
Thoughts?

[Bane of the Living]

Stick to two colors and add Small Pox.

[Solpugid]

I really like the idea of recursive kill and LD from wasteland and pit, but having them as 1-ofs doesn't make all that much sense. Even with dredging, you don't find them that often. I would pick one and run 2 of it. If you see lots of aggro, go with pit. Lots of thresh, etc. then run wasteland. My only concern is, with cabal pit, you'll damage yourself. With fetches, confidant, and then pit...the damage adds up.

I immediately loved your BG list, and my question is this: after whatever testing you did, do you think the deck needs a splash of white to be viable?

[Mirrislegend]

The only reason I brought up white is because the B/G version didnt have much success originally. I figured the white splash would give it the power it needed. Plus, it gives me an excuse to run Jotun Grunt :laugh:

Anyways, I agree about shifting the focus of the speciality lands. Probably will go towards pit, because g2 and g3, 4x Duress and 4x Cabal Therapy pound the living daylights out of anything that likes to have a hand.

Also, why smallpox? The double black CC is rather prohibitive, and I tend to drop creatures first turn: this is an aggro deck after all.

[lolosoon]

Stick to two colors and add Small Pox.
Yup, great statement :
Even if you're running some beatsticks, SmallPox are freaking good as you can easily recover from the loss of a land and another card (say... another land).

Here's a decklist I'm still tweaking :

Mana : 26
4 Mox Diamond
4 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
2 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Cabal Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland

Creatures : 18
3 Wild Mongrel
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness

Spells : 16
2 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Life from the Loam
2 Zombie Infestation
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Small Pox


Before including SmallPox (+2 ZI +1 Mongrel in this slot) I often felt the lack of removal in the deck. And now, cycling them with Witness (+ Stronghold) has gain me some great CA mid-late game. (Sure, LateGame rarely happens)

This can be improved, but I'm feeling comfortable with that list for now.

SB contains :
4 Duress -= Combo or Control =-
4 Krosan Grip -= Pithing Needle or Graveyard hate in general =-
3 E. Plague -= I'm not confidant DarkBlast alone can keep Goblins at bay =-
4 Leyline of the Void



Also, why smallpox? The double black CC is rather prohibitive, and I tend to drop creatures first turn: this is an aggro deck after all.
Mox Diamonds + Fetchlands easily get you BB or BG. For the Aggro-deck, I'd say it's a point of vue. DeadHeads can easily slide to a Rockish aggro-control. It's what I'm trying though...
The only critter I really want to drop early is Confidant (turn 1-2), then threshed beatsticks (turns 4+). With all the removal around, the first doesn't last long and SmallPox helps clearing the board before the lasts come out.
Sure, you don't always want to draw SmallPox, that's why I'm only running 3 of'em.

[Mirrislegend]

Looks like a good list. Just be careful though, wasteland will hit you hard. Do you really find 4 cycling lands to be necessary?

[lolosoon]

Looks like a good list. Just be careful though, wasteland will hit you hard. Do you really find 4 cycling lands to be necessary?
@Wastelands and colorless mana sources : yes, it can hurts sometimes, especially if your starting hand is full of Wasteland, Stronghold and Cycling lands. But in the current heavily dual-landed metagame, it's a huge weapon (especially in conjunction with Smallpox).

@Cycling Lands : I run 4 of them only to quickly dredge or discard one. I love recycling them with Lotl, but I know how it hurts your manabase. With Mox Diamonds you should even be able to cycle one 1st turn and still play Duress (or Darkblast/Demise if on the draw & facing a lackey)

Those choices have cost me some mulligans, so I think the manabase is suboptimal for now. Still, with so many low cc spells, even "bad" hands can be playable ones. Playable AND winable.


Edit : Oops, I see what you mean by beeing hit by wastelands. Yes, there's a lot of non-basic in the list. And I dunno if Life from the Loam alone will help dodging the color-/mana-screw from your opponent's wastelands. Still, beside Pox, $t@x and Goblins, is there that many MD Wastelands around ?!

[Mirrislegend]

Uhhh Goblins is a huge deal. This decks ability to handle Goblins comes from how efficient it is with resources. Having lands get wasted hurts this deck just the way goblins wants it to hurt. Thus, one really has to focus the mana base for this deck. Thats why, at most, I run 3 cycling lands: Cycling lands/LFTL and Dark confidant as engines are comparable, and you only need 1 to win.

[Solpugid]

I would agree with 3 cycling lands. 2 seemed a tad low, considering you generally want to see one during a game.

Smallpox...can be very good, but is it really necessary? It takes the place of additonal beaters and/or more specific removal. How has testing with it gone? I think if smallpox ends up in the list, then wasteland should be the utility land of choice. IE, 2 wastes and 2 strongholds and NO cabal pit. The pit can be good, but is: a)waste-able, b)deals damage to you, and c)provides a single color of mana. I would honestly just put a basic swamp in its place.

This may just be my experience with other decks talking, but all the 2-ofs in that last list look rather janky. Can any of them be condensed?

[Mirrislegend]

When you expect to have at least one of LftL or Dark Confidant active each game, 2x is plenty for a land card that is good to have, but not necessary to win.

EDIT: 200th post. Hoo-rah.

[lolosoon]

When you expect to have at least one of LftL or Dark Confidant active each game, 2x is plenty for a land card that is good to have, but not necessary to win.
And don't forget the Dredge engine which digs deep into your deck to Loam the milled lands thereafter...

Has anybody been tempted by adding the madness Rootwallas ?! I'd tried them but the 1G "upkeep" for a simple 3/3 did not make the cut. Still it's quite a good CA with ZI or Mongrel in the deck.

[Mirrislegend]

I had Rootwallas in my way way back original list. The only really positive thing to be said for them is, with a discard outlet, they allow you to Cabal Therapy twice in rapid succession. But its a minute advantage, compared to the cards you would have to cut for it. It's just not worth it in this deck.

[Solpugid]

When you expect to have at least one of LftL or Dark Confidant active each game, 2x is plenty for a land card that is good to have, but not necessary to win.

I wasn't actually reffering to the 2-of lands, which I agree are plenty. I meant the 2x darkblast, ghastly demise, infestation, etc. But still, just because they look janky doesn't mean they play janky. My problem is, I don't have time to test this right now, with my finals looming.

[Mirrislegend]

Oh I see what you mean. I didnt think you were referring to that, because my build has a very solid spell base. Anyways, I know what you mean with finals :mad:

[Solpugid]

Yeah, I was reffering to Lolosoon's list. He seemed to split up a lot of your 4-ofs to splash additonal good cards. But I'm not sure about it.

While I love witness as much as the next guy, I worry about it as a 3-of, or even in the list at all. This is not the rock, and doesn't want to wipe the board and then recover quickly. As far as I can tell, this deck wins on the back of tempo, which eternal witness cuts into. That's my major beef with smallpox: it hurts your opponent more than you AT THIS TIME, but I'm not sure if the set-back in tempo could come back to bite you. Again, wish I could test...

[Mirrislegend]

Well, regular playing of this deck reveals that it beats the living shit out of control. However, it was vs Mono-U control, in 3 different matches, with pilots of varying skill. It also does well vs combo, but that was only one match.

Nimble Mongoose is a house vs control, as is the lategame engine of ZI zombies + dredged Cabal Therapies. I'm considering dropping the City of Solitudes in the SB, as I've never seen one when they've been in the deck, and I've still smashed control's face in. Any suggestions on replacements if I do drop them? I was thinking maybe Wasteland, assuming Cabal Pit goes MD. If I did Pit MD, I'd only do 1, with another in the SB in the place of that SB Darkblast. Thoughts?

[Solpugid]

Have you tested aggro, though? Like, goblins? Or angel/faerie stompy?

I imagine this deck would be pretty good versus gobs. But as for slightly slower decks, I think MD wasteland would help the match against the stompies, thresh, fish, and other aggro-control.

How does this deck do against board control decks (i.e. rifter, truffle)? I think finding a good solution to deed and wrath would be great. I almost want to side living death! Almost.

Here would be my suggested list:

Mana:
4 Bayou
3 Polluted delta
3 Wooded foothills
2 Volrath's stronghold
2 Wasteland
2 Tranquil thicket
1 Barren moor
3 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Mox diamond

Beats:
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark confidant
4 Wild mongrel
2 Eternal witness

Spells:
2 Darkblast
3 Zombie infestation
3 Life from the loam
3 Ghastly demise
4 Cabal therapy

Board:
4 Tormod's crypt
3 Krosan grip
4 Duress
4 Engineered plague

Sort of a combo between the last 2 lists.

[Mirrislegend]

Goblins isnt terrible: MD 1cc removal is nice. Cabal Therapy allows you to effectively kick them in the nuts for the early game, and try to swing in before they go Ringleader, Matron, Kiki, Ringleaders everywhere.

I havent tested any board control decks. However, I imagine if you can get an active Stronghold before they lay a finisher, you should do alright.

And about that list, is Witness really worth giving up a removal slot (Ghastly Demise) and a discard outlet (ZI)?

[Solpugid]

Yeah, I don't know about witness either. Further up in this thread, I kinda busted on it. But when I think about it (especially + stronghold) she...makes me happy. She adds a lot to the control match-ups, but lessens your answers to aggro. Personally, I don't think I'll miss the 4th infestation (how much do you really enjoy discarding?), but the 4th demise I'm sure I will miss.

I really wanted to play her as a 1-of in place of the 4th infestation, but that just seemed terrible to me. Can you tell me how important you think it is to have 4 infestations?

[Mirrislegend]

You need at least 1 discard outlet to make a given hand keepable. Well, that or Confidant. But having that outlet makes for a more stable hand. It allows you to start abusing the synergies of this deck right away.

Also, ZI rocks the control matchup. Uncounterable 2/2 beaters? Yes please. The control matchup is under hand. And given that Witness will weaken the aggro MU, in return for an only possibly good Control MU card, I'd keep ZI over Witness. I agree that Witness could fit into this deck, but not in the place of any of the discard outlets.

[Bane of the Living]

You guys should just sideboard the Witnesses if you ask me. I think the deck needs a strong sorc like Persecute or Plow Under to tie the end game up. Both would be amazing with witness because you could dredge into them.

How good is Werebear? Do you want the deck that reliant on the graveyard business? If so may I suggest Terravore?

[Mirrislegend]

Werebear speeds up the clock significantly where it matters the most (vs combo), helps bolster the mana base when facing LD, and is the only fat body in the deck which is important vs aggro, but also, he's fat very early. It takes usually only 1 dredging to turn your board of 1/1s into beasts. Terravore, on the other hand, is much weaker in the early game. And in the lategame where he would be useful, you would be making 2+ Zombies per turn with LftL, which is usually enough for a lethal alpha strike.

[Solpugid]

I do like the idea of witness boarded, though. Having 4 duress and 2 or 3 witness come in against control and combo would be excellent. Persecute, while good, doesn't really fit the plan of the deck. Neither does plow under. Honestly, I think late game will be filled enough with playing loam and cycling lands to gain card advantage, so mana will be tight (ideally). The only "big sorcery" I could see is haunting echoes (I love that card). But I doubt there's room for more than one, if that.

Maybe we need to go back to that smallpox discussion? I don't care for it, personally, but it may turn out to be a bomb.

[Mirrislegend]

Honestly, I dont really know how to play Smallpox. I'm just no good running it in a deck that likes to play cards early on. But I can play this deck very naturally. Since my competence with those two are complete opposites, I assume that they wouldnt play well together, at least for me, despite the deck's many synergies with Smallpox. If someone posted a decent Smallpox build, I'd certainly consider it though.

[Solpugid]

Have you taken this to a tourney yet? Results from that would certainly jump-start discussion. Actually, any idea/write-up of the progression of games would be good too, since I have yet to actually play this deck. I have a lot of experience with a deck that runs similar cards, but like I said, it's definitely a control deck and this isn't.

My one major concern right now is the major dependence this deck has on the graveyard. It can certainly recover from a crypt, and can just kill jotun grunt, but it hurts a lot, and grave hate is everywhere.

If the grave goes, our thresh creatures (read: half the win conditions) get tiny, we lose lands to get with loam (and maybe even loam), and our major kill spell becomes worthless. Again, the grave can be restocked more easily than in threshold, but I'm still worried, since this deck has more cards reliant on the grave than thresh does.

I was also wondering if jitte can be fit as a 2-of, or something similar. Accelerating with mox diamond allows for some crazy plays with this card, and would result in a great advantage against aggro. Plus, the life gain allows recursion of fetchlands even with a confidant drawing us gas (and thus hurting us).

[Mirrislegend]

Vs control: Just remember to not overextend into any Wraths, and just beat face (usually with Zombies). A ridiculously easy time: ex- I beat a mono blue lockdown deck when they had a trinishpere, a winter orb, a static orb and 4 propaganda's on the board. That usually spells game over for a deck that swings with men, but not this one!

Vs combo: aim for a double cabal therapy asap (before your turn 2 ends), mulligan relatively aggressively for that, then beat face. SBed games, try to hit at least 2 discard spells or 1 discard and 1 confidant within the first 3 turns, then beat face.

Vs aggro: if this is true, straight up aggro, its favored for them, but its not terrible. Ghastly Demise and Darkblast are houses, and threshed men are some good. However, we cannot match their outright efficiency.

Vs aggro control: this is where things seem to go to hell. if you can push it to the long game, and maintain a decent life total, then you can win via Zombie swarm beatz. But if they get the jump in the early game, you may easily be screwed.

ps: sorry about the grammar and punctuation hell. got a massive headache. be back later to edit and fix that stuff.

[Bane of the Living]

The graveyard dependancy was what I was refering to when I suggested removing Werebear. Obviously because Goose is better. What about Vinelasher Kudzu? Ive gotten him ridiculously big with fetchlands in loam decks before.

[Mirrislegend]

I really dont know if there's any way to justify removing Werebear. At absolute worst, he pitches to a discard outlet for some positive effect. But Vinelasher, on the other hand, you always hold onto, to ensure that you can resolve him later as a big beater. I think this deck's reliance on the graveyard is similar to Threshold's reliance. While I rely on it for more things, I'm not completely dependant on it to win games, as Threshold is. And we all know how Thresh fights through all the graveyard hate in the format...

[Solpugid]

I think I need to BUMP this thread.

I did some testing with it, and found that it can actually run out of cards rather quickly. I found having a discard outlet to be very important during some part of the game, but I don't think it's necessary at the beginning. This is where I want to be playing removal (i.e. staying alive), therapies, confidants, and mongooses, and not worrying about immediately starting my engine. This may sound like poor judgment, considering the engine runs this deck, but sometimes setting up takes priority.

Anyway, I'm rambling so I'll move on. I also found five cycling lands to be ideal. I always want one or two, but I hate having to play them (obviously). Finally, I discovered that smallpox is not for this deck. The synergies are there, but as I said, the deck can run out of cards early. This means that smallpox is often fair, and we can't have that (considering we're investing a card and mana).

In summary: 3 infestations seems good to me; 5 cycling lands is great; smallpox is a no-go for now; dark confidant is ownage.

[Grapes17]

I am really interested in seeing where this deck can go. I love the idea of Zombie Infestation, and I love that it is being used. I don't really know what to suggest for it though. The list looks like there is little room to move around.

One idea to toss out there is Tortured Existence. It is a discard outlet (for creatures only, meh), but can be some neat synergy with Eternal Witness. Although, it may be hard to get into play while doing a lot of dredging, and most of the times your creatures are already good enough not to discard. Probably won't fit correctly into this deck, but it is just an idea.

Although, as mentioned earlier Genesis is probably just better, as is simply having it be a land rather than any of these extra cards.

Come to think of it, my input probably wasn't very useful, but I still wouldn't mind doing some testing with this deck and see how it goes.