[Deck] UWR Scepter-Control

[Hanni]

Everyone thinks Control is dead in the format. That is usually based on the fact that it has a bad combo matchup. It's good against aggro and aggro/control but folds to Combo. What if you build a Control deck that does better against Combo than other control decks and still smashes face against the other 2/3 of the top Tier? How do you make a Control deck do better against Combo?

I'm not quite sure I've found the perfect solution or anything, but why wouldn't a deck that does good against 2/3 of the top Tier be dead in the format? It seems like it's the last piece of the puzzle... each of the main deck types is represented in the top 3 Tier 1 except Control. Thresh -Aggro/Control, Combo - Solidarity, and Aggro - Goblins (well, it's like aggro/control/combo but yea).

Well regardless, I think I've built a Control deck that does fairly well against combo. Instead of running tons of dead cards against combo with removal spells, it uses burn for removal that can turn into a clock against Combo. It also maindecks 4 Meddling Mage and sideboards 4 Chalice of the Void and 3 Stifle. It's also got Orim's Chant to stop the player from combo'ing... and on a Stick that trump combo too (I'm not sure if it affects instant-speed High Tide but it does stop combo like IGGy Pop and Salvagers).

I'm not sure if anyone else has posted this idea up before or not. I skimmed through the most recent 5 pages of the Source and didn't see anything. I worked on this all morning because I wanted to build a UWR Scepter-Control deck.

Well, before I get into too much detail about the deck, let me post it:

UWR Scepter-Control

Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures (4)
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Eternal Dragon

Spells (35)
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
4 Fire//Ice
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Magma Jet
3 Lightning Helix
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Isochron Scepter

Sideboard (15)
2 Disenchant
4 Pyroclasm
4 Meddling Mage
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives


Note: The information below may contradict with the above decklist due to modifications made after the thread was created.

Where to begin...

The manabase has a relatively low cc curve for a control deck, mainly because of the way the deck is built around Isochron Scepter. Most of the spells are 1cc and 2cc instants. That allows me to run only 21 lands, with 4 of those being able to be manlands. I modeled the UWR colorbase off of my UWb Fish manabase. I've found the color base of my UWb Fish deck to work very well... and the extra 4 Factory's in here should be plenty, especially since alot of the spells in this deck can be funded with colorless mana.

4 Meddling Mage is the only creature the deck runs. It's not a bad win condition since this deck can keep the table cleared with spot removal and it's a very important creature because it can keep my Isochron Scepter's protected. It also makes my matchup against combo much better, which is something that Control needed help with. I don't believe the deck needs Eternal Dragon because it doesn't need the mana increaser, though the mana fixing could make running 3 colors easier so I still have it in consideration. Exalted Angel doesn't fit here. I thought about Trinket Mage but I don't think he's necessary either.

The draw package consists of 4 Brainstorm, 4 Fire//Ice, and 4 Magma Jet. The deck doesn't run any actual card draw beside cantrip, but Isochron Scepter provides card advantage by being perpetual. Re-using Lightning Helix, for example, is card advantage. With a draw spell on a Stick, the cantrip becomes actual card draw. Fire//Ice is a nice draw spell because it can give me card advantage by 2-for-1'ing creatures or simply cantrip and tap something out if I need to draw more. Tapping out a Solidarity opponent's land on their EoT can help. Magma Jet is basically Serum Visions without the cantrip effect but it's instant speed and it doubles over as removal or a clock. On a stick, Magma Jet can sculpt perfect topdecks.

4 Counterspell and 4 FoW fill the decks spot for countermagic. The deck adequately supports enough blue spells for FoW and supports the manabase to pay UU for Counterpell. 8 countermagic spells helps vs combo but it also fills the control role very nicely. Adding in 8 countermagic to board control decks make them more consistent, in my opinion. It also helps protect Scepter.

The removal package consists of 4 Fire//Ice, 4 Magma Jet, 3 Lightning Helix, 3 StP, and 2 Engineered Explosives. I believe that this is plenty enough removal maindeck to handle aggro and aggro/control. Fire//Ice can 2-for-1 or draw, Lightning Helix gives necessary life gain, Magma Jet is also draw, StP deals with problematic threats that aren't affected by the burn, and Engineered Explosives can sweep away problematic artifacts/enchantments like Pithing Needle and still wipes away creatures like Nimble Mongoose. Most of the removal can also go to the dome so that I don't have tons of useless removal spells against combo. They can all be put onto a Stick, besides Explosives. The numbers may not be perfect yet, since I've only been tweaking the list since this morning, but they seem about right.

Orim's Chant can also answer creatures that the removal doesn't answer. It can handle problematic guys like Nimble Mongoose and it also answers large threats like Exalted Angel. However, it also locks the game up on a Stick. It's not so hot without Scepter, which is why I only run 3. It's good against combo though, which is also a good thing for a Control deck.

The sideboard is something I worked on a little bit and it seemed pretty sound. The Chalices help against Thresh and Solidarity without really hurting me. They strengthen the combo matchup even more and makes, what I believe, to be a favorable matchup game 2 against combo. Obviously that assumption needs playtested, and I may be completely wrong.
The Stifles also help the combo matchup and they can protect against random things like Wasteland and comes-into-play effects like Rindleader. They might be better in the maindeck, I'm not quite sure yet, but they help the combo matchup alot and are overall useful in Legacy.
The Pyroclasms deal with Goblins rather well, blowing up all their guys while I hold on to my Factory's and Scepter locks. It's also useful against other random aggro. The 2cc is much easier to cast than the 4cc double white cost of Wrath of God.
Engineered Explosives can deal with Pithing Needles, Aether Vials, creatures, or whatever. They are very versatile.
Pithing Needle helps to answer randomness like Aether Vial and Rishadan Port. It also answers randomness like Auriok Salvagers and Mother of Runes.

So what do you guys think?

[Cavius The Great]

I've tested Scepter in the past before, and it really sucks without Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox. Without those two components, the deck is way too slow. Just my two cents.

[Hanni]

Why would the deck need acceleration? It plays the control role... and it doesn't need a Stick to stick. The 2 colorless mana from Tombs would suck in this deck, since very few spells can actually be funded by 2 colorless sources. Chrome Mox would cause card disadvantage and that's very bad in control. I really don't see why this deck would need acceleration when it's just playing the control role... and on a very low cc count for a control build.

EDIT:

Ok, I made quite a few tweaks based on my limited playtesting against Parcher using Threshold.

Before I make sure that I'm winning the combo matchup, I need to make sure I'm winning my Threshold and Goblins matchups. Threshold seemed like it was near 50/50. My playtesting against Threshold so far was limited but I want to make sure the matchup is favorable.

Meddling Mage is strong against Threshold but I think Jotun Grunt would be stronger. He's also a bigger body for me against Goblins and a faster clock for me against combo. I lose the strength of Meddling Mage maindeck but I gain Jotun Grunt, so it's not entirely too bad. I now have the ability to hose graveyards, which is definitely a plus. He also survives my sideboarded Pyroclasms, which I think is pretty great.

I also tossed in Stifle so that my Grunt's could go the distance... I know how awesome Stifle and Jotun Grunt are together in the same deck. Running maindeck Stifle's should also strengthen my Goblins matchup considerably. As long as my opponent isn't gaining card advantage from Ringleaders, I should be able to handle their aggro. Stifle stops Ringleader. It also protects me against early Wastelands, so that's always a plus.

In the sideboard, I decided to go with 4 Meddling Mage. I'm also not quite sure how badly I want Pithing Needle in their.... Pithing Needle is a great card but it seems like one of the biggest targets for it is Aether Vial. I run Engineered Explosives maindeck, which can not only remove Vial but can also deal with Lackey's and Fanatics. I'm not saying Engineered Explosives is better at handling Aether Vial but I don't think this deck really needs to answer Vial, it just needs to answer Ringleader. Engineered Explosives is also useful overall, stopping opposing Needles, Mongooses, and etc.

I decided to put 2 Disenchant in instead, since it can also deal with artifacts/enchantments out of Needle/Explosives range. This may be a bad decision and I may be coming back to Needle but I'll leave it this way for now, especially since I can get Disenchant on a stick against decks where artifacts/enchantments may be a problem (narrow I know but still a possibility).

Here's the tweaks:

MD
-4 Meddling Mage
-1 Counterspell
-1 Fire//Ice
+3 Jotun Grunt
+3 Stifle

SB
-3 Stifle
-3 Pithing Needle
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Disenchant

I really wanted to fit in Fact or Fiction but I felt that Jotun Grunt and Stifle were a bit stronger. It's probably going to be hard to cast FoF against Goblins and it's probably going to be too slow against combo. Against Threshold, 4cc is going to be a huge Daze target. I know FoF owns and my small arguments I just made against it do not outweigh the power of the card, but right now I just have no clue what I could possibly remove.

I dropped 1 Counterspell since 3 Stifles came in... I still have solid amount of countermagic.

I dropped 1 Fire//Ice because it seemed like it was the weakest card to remove against combo and Threshold. Against Threshold, tapping a Mystic Enforcer and drawing a card isn't so bad... but unless it's on a Stick, it's not actually saving me. Against combo, tapping out one of their lands on their EoT can be good but it still only slows them down from combo'ing out for a turn. Fire//Ice is wicked on a stick but it seemed like the only other card I could possibly cut besides maybe 1 Orim's Chant and I really didn't want to do that. Magma Jet was just too strong for me to cut. I really felt like I needed 3 Stifle.

This deck just isn't that popular on The Source I guess, huh?

[erdjinn]

You can find a useful article in the primers.
Here's the link to the Scepter Control deck: http://mtgsalvation.com/article/15/scepter-control-in-legacy/
I tested both the UW and the UWR version and I found them very interesting. UWR is the best I think.
Coming to your list I think there are too many burn spells, and too few counters/removal. Cunning Wish is really good. Try it.

[imran]

Hanni,

Your deck seems to have really interesting ideas. There are a few things I want to ask:

** 7 Fetchlands
Wow, that’s a lot. Compared to the fact, that you have only 10 fetchable lands, your mana configuration seems really mana light. Maybe I am wrong, but the 7 Fetchlands seems way too high for me, have you considered cutting 1 Polluted Delta and adding 1 Island?
-1 Polluted Delta
+1 Island

**Mishra’s Factory
What is the logic behind running Mishra’s Factory. You don’t have Mass Removal (Pyroclasm, Wrath of God…), you are not running Standstill or any other supporting card and you don’t run Crucible or Life. Why are you distorting your mana base?
Wouldn’t it be easier to run more basic lands?
-4 Mishra’s Factory
+3 Wasteland
+1 Island

**Jotun Grunt
This is definitely a “Hanni Fish Export” 
But it seems as if this one is not fitting in this deck. You have only 7 Win Conditions, 4 Isochron Scepter and 3 Jotun Grunt. What is the role of Jotun Grunt in this deck? Is he better than Exalted Angel? I know, that your mana base can’t support (WW2 seems way too much stress). but the Grunt seems too week. In my opinion, you need a more stable Win Condition than the Grunt. Unfortunately I have no idea what your deck could support, maybe
-3 Jotun Grunt
+3 Win Conditions (I have no idea which to choose)

**Creature Control
3 Fire//Ice
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Magma Jet
3 Lightning Helix

You have a lot of Burn Spells, of which 3 Fire//Ice, 3 Sword, 4 Magma Jet and 3 Lightning Helix are all Spot Removal. I know, that you have already cutted a lot of the Spot Removal down, and any of these spells is game on a Scepter, but the question is, how many different game ending imprints do you need on a Scepter?
Furthermore I am missing the Mass Removal, have you ever thought about maindecking Pyroclasm? Rather than have so many Spot Removal I would suggest the following
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Lightning Helix
+2 Pyroclasm

Just to give you a rough idea, I have created a Legacy Version of Keeper, which I am currently testing. Basically it has the same ideas. I will just post the decklist to give you a source of ideas :-)

Legacy Keeper

Blue (17)
1 Morphling
1 Teferi’s Response/Trickbind
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

White (6)
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Exalted Angel
3 Swords to Plowshares

Red (6)
2 Magma Jet
2 Pyroclasm
2 Fire / Ice

Green (2)
1 Crop Rotation
1 Regrowth

Black (2)
1 The Abyss
1 Hauting Echoes

Artifact (3)
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible of the Worlds

Land (25)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Vulcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 City of Brass
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Mouth of Moron

[erdjinn]

I think you have too many colors and too many 1 ofs for a Legacy deck.
With all the Wastelands/Ports around double W for Exalted Angel and double B for Haunting Echoes will be really a problem.
Enlightened Tutor is nice but can get very few cards.

If you want to play Scepter Control use 3 colors at most and play 3 Cunning Wishes and a Wishboard.

[Xero]

Throw some Time Spiral in that shit: 1x Teferi, Mage of Zhelfari makes Sceptor-Chant basicaly impossible to get out of and is great against Solitdarity, and 1-2x Academy Ruins will bring back your stick if it gets killed. I'd cut one each of Stifle, Magma Jet, and Lightning Helix and run Cunning Wish+Wishboard. Also, I don't think that Grunt is a good idea maindeck. Sure, it helps against Gro, but dosen't it kill itself a large number of times? The Factories are probably unnesecary: with Academy Ruins back-up Sceptor is a great win condition.

[Wynk]

Nice ideas Hanni.

I'd have to agree with Xero for the combo matchup. I'm messing around with UWR Scepter Control as well, and I'd have to say meddling mages, labs with factories, and Teferi with a decent counterspell line make Solidarity a less horrible matchup then I expected. An early mage or lab with counter protection helps you get to the mid game. After Teferi is cast, bounce becomes weak as mages become instant speed threats and Teferi itself can prematurely end a instant speed brainfreeze chain for an unwary Solidarity player. With Teferi out, stifle dominates the stack. This may not work for game 3 as solidarity will build up storm on its own turn and generally play more carefully, but in game 2 its a surprise. I'm not saying the matchup is good, but with a good sideboard, it isn't a complete autoloss.

Even MUC is thinking about sideboarding Teferi now. Although MUC vs. Scepter chant will be pretty evil as whoever lays down the 1st Teferi will likely win the game. Similar Situation: Sivvi in WW Rebels a few years ago.

Also, while Scepter gets hated out a lot do to the high amount of artifact removal, Ruins does a great job, even as a 1X shot at getting back a scepter. I enjoy it when the scepter with fire/ice gets gripped, and I can counter the upcoming threat, pop out a Ruins on my turn, use it before its wastelanded, get back the scepter from the top of my deck with a timely brainstorm, and imprint a chant on it instead. :)

Kudos to your using EE. I've loved that card since it came out to deal with mongoose, chalices, and pithing needles. Its pretty flexible though its not very mana efficient.


Question: I currently use 24 land right now. Do you ever find your 21 land mix to be too few, especially with all the wastelands going on right now?

How have the stifles been working for you?

[erdjinn]

@Wink: can you share your list with us?
Hanni's list has many more burn spells than the primer list.

Can anyone give me an idea of the good/bad matchups for this deck?

[Wynk]

To Erdjinn: I'd be happy to share a my decklist normally, but I've been adapting it to Teferi for the past week. Its been going all over the place. I'm not happy with it yet.

Note: I sideboard in 4X meddling mages, 1 lab, 1 enlightened tutor, the 4th chant, and 3 angels vs. Solidarity. I currently have only f/i, factories, and Teferi maindeck. Thus I tend to lose 1st game barring my opponent fizzling or inattentive play. Sideboard I try and become aggro/control, see threshold. A worse threshold, but still...........you need a clock.

In goldfish testing, I discovered I could pull out a turn 5 win with this lineup, if VERY lucky. (ie. I can do 18 damage myself. Lucky means the opponent does not counter, go off by turn 5, and given Solidarity lists average 6-8 fetchlands, the player does 1-2 points of damage to self)

turn 1: lay down a land, go. (could brainstorm or tutor at this point)

turn 2: lay down a fetchland cast meddling mage on high tide, go.

turn 3: lay down a factory etc. attack with meddling
mage for 2 damage. cast a morph, go. total: 2 damage

turn 4: lay down a land, preferably one with blue/white, morph angel, attack
with mage and angel for 6 damage, go. total: 8 damage

turn 5: lay down a land, (not necessary) attack with mage, factory, angel
for 8 damage. total 16 damage.
At this point I had F/I in hand, FOW, and lab. (I got lucky)
Hanni would probably have chalice of the void and lightning helix for
3 damage instead of the 2 F/I does. After damage done, you have
2-3 mana left in your pool and hopefully your opponent has 3-4 life
based off of combat and fetchland damage. At this point I could
have cast a lab with FOW protection, (if I drew the 5th land) which
would hurt the Solidarity player's chances of getting out of this, or
wait and cast F/I or helix with FOW backup.

Total combat damage: 16 burn: 2-3 Total damage: 18-19
disruption: FOW, meddling mage
Aggro: Angel, factory, meddling, burn
colors access needed: 1 red, 2 white, 1 blue. love dual lands/fetches.

Chances this occurs a real game: NOT good. But it can happen!

[Hanni]

I'm not really sure about Cunning Wish due to the tempo loss but I'll give it a whirl when I get the time to test.

I really like the amount of burn spells since they can go to the dome as a finisher when my opponent is low enough in life from Grunts/Factories or they simply don't run much/no aggro to begin with.

Dropping a burn spell for an extra Plow could be a good idea or maybe drop a Counterspell and a Fire//Ice for 2 MD Pyroclasm or something. This deck is still relatively new to me (I usually playtest decks for months and months before I try to give actual results) and the testing process has been slow for me because I've been extremely busy, so bear with me.

To address Imran:

I think 7 fetchlands is pretty essential here for a few reasons. First of all, it fixes the manabase considerably, allowing me to fetch for the appropriate Duals or Basics that I need. It also gives me 7 fetch effects... I am running 4 Brainstorm and I want to fetch away my 2 unwanted cards as often as is possible so that my card quality is increased. Since I run no actual card draw (besides having something like Fire//Ice on a stick), the card quality is pretty important.

I decided to run Mishra's Factory because I wanted 21 mana sources but I also wanted some extra win conditions. Factory helps fund the colorless requirement in spells like Fire//Ice and Magma Jet, as well as Scepter, but it can also turn into a win condition. It's also solid on defense, since it can block as a 3/3. I do have Pyroclasms in the sideboard, so they do work well in that regard. I was also considering MD 2 Pyroclasms and SB 2 Pyroclasm 2 WoG but I'm not sure yet... all of which the Factory's get around. Basically, Factory is a 2-for-1 for me, being a mana source and a potential win condition at the same time. I'm considering removing 1 Factory for 1 Academy Ruins, though again I need to do alot more playtesting.

I actually like Jotun Grunt in here. This deck produces a large amount of graveyard fodder since most spells it casts put 2 cards in the yard (an opponent's creature and my removal spell). He's very easy on the manabase at 2cc, allowing me to activate my Scepter the same turn I put a Grunt down. The amount of removal the deck has can usually (not always, but in my cases) swing freely. If I can swing through for 12 damage with Grunt in a game, winning becomes much easier. With the opponent at 8 life, I only need to hit a couple of times with burn or a Factory. Jotun Grunt also makes my Thresh matchup better and I know Thresh will be popular at GP Columbus. It also stops graveyard strategies, especially those involving Loam/Crucible and Wasteland.

As far as Teferi goes, he seems like a good option. The 2UUU cost is what scares me though... people have told me already that Scepter isn't viable in Legacy, and while I don't believe that at all, a 2UUU cost doesn't seem too good. I'll try it though.

Also, I like Chalice alot better than Arcane Laboratory. It's more useful overall and can shut down so many different decks. It's great vs combo (and 1cc cheaper) but it's also great vs Threshold, Fish, etc.

Ok that's all I can think of for now. I wish I could present some matchup data and percentages but I simply don't have enough concrete data to do so at this point. If anyone would be willing to test this out and help a bit with that, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Cait_Sith]

You forgot to mention the massive Syngergy of Grunts and Fetch lands. Just saying.

[Phantom]

I put this over on TMD, but I thought it might actually get a response on here:

Has any though been given to Enlightened Tutor. I'm not really a control player, but this seems like a pretty sweet card here. It would allow you to get scepter more often, while actually decreasing the amount of times you draw one (which I know can be a dead draw early vs. Goblins or when you have nothing or nothing good to throw on it). It would give you quick access to Explosives if a needle or vial is down and I guess you could add a small toolbox main and sideboard that could include needle, crypt, artifact lands, rule of law, arcane lab, Chalice, Arcane Lab, Defense Grid, Ghostly Prison, etc.

Anyway, it's just a thought. Is there any matchup data at all? It's really hard to comment intellegently about a control deck if I don't know it's strengths and weaknesses (at least, it is for me).

Glad to see scepter getting some play.

[Hanni]

I wish I could present some matchup data and percentages but I simply don't have enough concrete data to do so at this point. If anyone would be willing to test this out and help a bit with that, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I can throw out a random guess and say that I'm about roughly:

50/50 or better vs Solidarity game 1 and possibly 65/35 vs Solidarity game 2 and 3. I have FoW, Counterspell, Chalice, Meddling Mage, Jotun Grunt to an extent, Stifle, and a relatively decent clock (burn, Factory, Grunt, Mage).

60/40 with Goblins game 1 and roughly 65/45 with them games 2 and 3. I run alot of removal and Isochron Scepter allows me to outgas them. I'm keeping the percentages against Goblins low for now because Ringleader can be busted and I haven't tested much (and many people overstate their Goblins matchups). It is more than likely better than this, especially with 4 Pyroclasms out of the sideboard, but Wastelands and Rishadan Ports can always make a big difference here. For now, I'm going to try and work on tuning the deck to better handle my Goblins matchup, whether it be through tuning up the manabase or running more mass removal.

60/40 vs Threshold game 1 and 65/35 vs Threshold games 2 and 3. This is more than likely an oversight, since most of their game is tempo based and they can easily answer my Scepters with Needle and countermagic. I'm basing the 60/40 purely off of Jotun Grunt and Engineered Explosives back by my own countermagic. This is more than likely a 50/50 preboard matchup. Postboard I gain a 3rd Explosives, 4 Chalice, and up to 4 Meddling Mages. Their Enforcers will wreck me if I don't answer them with countermagic or StP (or Grunt'ing their yard) since I run lots of burn. Fire//Ice on a stick can keep Enforcer tapped until I can manage to deal with it although that is a very narrow situation. Chalice at 1 is a house against them though, cutting them off of their cantrip, StP, Mongooses, and the like. Factory's trade with out of control Mongooses too. I'm hoping this matchup postboard is more like 70/30. I went 2-0 and 0-2 vs Threshold before I added in Eternal Dragon and Jotun Grunt's against Parcher so I'm hoping my percentages are better now with them.

Again, these are far from concrete and only speculative. I need more testing. I'm sure people will criticize this, especially since the %'s are all favorable vs the Tier 1... but that's why I'm extremely excited about this deck. I strongly believe that a fine-tuned build of UWR Control w/ Scepter has the ability to beat the Tier 1. This may be completely wrong and I've been very busy and have had minimal time to test. I love playing with the deck though, it has been very strong and consistent for me. Control is the missing archtype in the Tier pie and I think UWR Control w/ Scepter has the ability to fill that role (although I also think Landstill is a very strong deck too). Take the %'s as you will, they are not based off of a significant amount of testing whatsoever. If anyone has the time and would like to playtest with the deck and tweak, develop %'s, and etc. I'd greatly appreciate that.

EDIT: Oh, I also forgot to mention that I made a few more changes:

-3 Orim's Chant
+1 Fire//Ice
+1 Eternal Dragon
+1 Counterspell

I was also considering cutting 1 Fire//Ice and 1 Counterspell for 2 MD Pyroclasms.

I dropped the Chant's because of Machinus' suggesting on themanadrain. They seemed like the weakest card in the deck and were only good with Scepter... and I want to try and minimize my dependence on Scepter.

[Hanni]

I'm considering dropping 1 Counterspell and 1 Fire//Ice for 2 Pyroclasm MD and running 2 WoG in those SB slots.

[erdjinn]

I can throw out a random guess and say that I'm about roughly:

50/50 or better vs Solidarity game 1 and possibly 65/35 vs Solidarity game 2 and 3. I have FoW, Counterspell, Chalice, Meddling Mage, Jotun Grunt to an extent, Stifle, and a relatively decent clock (burn, Factory, Grunt, Mage).

60/40 with Goblins game 1 and roughly 65/45 with them games 2 and 3. I run alot of removal and Isochron Scepter allows me to outgas them. I'm keeping the percentages against Goblins low for now because Ringleader can be busted and I haven't tested much (and many people overstate their Goblins matchups). It is more than likely better than this, especially with 4 Pyroclasms out of the sideboard, but Wastelands and Rishadan Ports can always make a big difference here. For now, I'm going to try and work on tuning the deck to better handle my Goblins matchup, whether it be through tuning up the manabase or running more mass removal.

60/40 vs Threshold game 1 and 65/35 vs Threshold games 2 and 3. This is more than likely an oversight, since most of their game is tempo based and they can easily answer my Scepters with Needle and countermagic. I'm basing the 60/40 purely off of Jotun Grunt and Engineered Explosives back by my own countermagic. This is more than likely a 50/50 preboard matchup. Postboard I gain a 3rd Explosives, 4 Chalice, and up to 4 Meddling Mages. Their Enforcers will wreck me if I don't answer them with countermagic or StP (or Grunt'ing their yard) since I run lots of burn. Fire//Ice on a stick can keep Enforcer tapped until I can manage to deal with it although that is a very narrow situation. Chalice at 1 is a house against them though, cutting them off of their cantrip, StP, Mongooses, and the like. Factory's trade with out of control Mongooses too. I'm hoping this matchup postboard is more like 70/30. I went 2-0 and 0-2 vs Threshold before I added in Eternal Dragon and Jotun Grunt's against Parcher so I'm hoping my percentages are better now with them.

Again, these are far from concrete and only speculative. I need more testing. I'm sure people will criticize this, especially since the %'s are all favorable vs the Tier 1... but that's why I'm extremely excited about this deck. I strongly believe that a fine-tuned build of UWR Control w/ Scepter has the ability to beat the Tier 1. This may be completely wrong and I've been very busy and have had minimal time to test. I love playing with the deck though, it has been very strong and consistent for me. Control is the missing archtype in the Tier pie and I think UWR Control w/ Scepter has the ability to fill that role (although I also think Landstill is a very strong deck too). Take the %'s as you will, they are not based off of a significant amount of testing whatsoever. If anyone has the time and would like to playtest with the deck and tweak, develop %'s, and etc. I'd greatly appreciate that.

EDIT: Oh, I also forgot to mention that I made a few more changes:

-3 Orim's Chant
+1 Fire//Ice
+1 Eternal Dragon
+1 Counterspell

I was also considering cutting 1 Fire//Ice and 1 Counterspell for 2 MD Pyroclasms.

I dropped the Chant's because of Machinus' suggesting on themanadrain. They seemed like the weakest card in the deck and were only good with Scepter... and I want to try and minimize my dependence on Scepter.

You say your percentages are speculative. Which decks have you tested against? :confused:

I always doubt of percentages, and I doubt even more on percentages that always grow after sideboarding. Your opponents never use sideboard. Do they? :wink:

Scepter Control depends heavily on Scepter. Since you want to minimize your dependance on Scepter I suggest you to cut at least 1 for Pyroclasm/WoG or other control maindeck. (Personally I'm going the opposite way and use the Cunning Wish to exploit the Scepter at its best.)
I have the impression that this deck is more a fish-burn deck, rather than a control deck. Wouldn't it be better with Serendib Efreet in place of Counterspell? :rolleyes:

[imran]

Hanni,

I think removing the Chant is the right step to more away from your dependence from Isochron Scepter.

** Enlightened Tutor
Have you thought about adding a Tutor? This would give you the flexibility to fetch a either an EE or a Scepter.

** Mana Base
Your Mana Base seems really stretched.
You need on your second turn double blue (Counterspell) and White and Red on two different lands (Lightning Helix) to run your deck without the Scepter. This means, that you need to have a Tundra and a Volcanic Island in play to run your deck smooth.
The problem is, what do you do with a Mishra in your opening hand? You have one colorless mana and need another land, which one do you fetch if you have Counterspell and a Helix in your hand?
I would either drop the Mishra’s, or remove one Mishra for one Dualland/Island/City of Brass and would definitely remove the Counterspell for Manaleaks due to the above mentioned reasons. This would allow you to have a Dual land and a Basic Land in play on your second turn, making your Manabase much more resilient to LD. What do you think?

** Diversification
I would try to diverse your spells. Currently your curve seems to me 2 mana heavy.

1 Mana (10)
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
3 Swords

2 Mana (22)
3 Counterspell
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Pyroclasm
4 Magma Jet
3 Fire // Ice
3 Lightning Helix
4 Isochron Scepter

A Chalice on two would really kill this deck, due to the fact, that nearly all of your removal is on the two mana slot. I think Lightning Bolt should be inserted to diverse your removal base. Maybe this seems crazy, but have you thought about removing one Magma Jet and one Helix for 2 Lightning Bolts? This would also give you 2 additional ways to remove first turn lackeys.

UWR Scepter-Control

Blue (14)
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

White (8)
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Eternal Dragon

Red (7)
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
3 Magma Jet

Multicolor (5)
3 Fire//Ice
2 Lightning Helix

Artifact
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Isochron Scepter

Lands (21)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 City of Brass
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory

[Jaynel]

I'm not sure if this is a step backwards, but could Academy Ruins help out? It can recur Engineered Explosives and get back countered Scepters.

If you want to move away from dependence on Scepter, then Academy Ruins just puts more stress on the manabase and is a bad idea.

[Mordenkain]

Hanni, this looks very interesting. Have you read my thread about creating a metagame deck? My deck idea (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4646)
I believe that the more you can complete on this list, the more your deck is stepping towards something really.
Your deck actually fills these slots nicely.
**Graveyard dependency: Only grunt is using your graveyard. Thats a nice plus.
**Creatureless win: Well, you win against creatures, but eternal dragon can be recurred, and scepter is not a creature.
**Maindeck hate: You run stifle maindeck. I really like that. Stifle is so broken imo. Also, all the creature removal is really good against agro aswell.

Suggestions:
I think you may need more win conditions. I've tried MD meddling mages more than once, and believe me it's good. Also, the can beat for 2 each turn, doubling as win conditon against combo, in more than one form because they also can spell game if they hit the right spell.
Fire//Ice is not good enough imo. I know it's good, but i think lightning bolt may be better.
**It's less of a stretch on your manabase and it smothes out your curve more.
I know you want to move away from scepter depency, but don't forget about it either. It's a very strong card, and deserves to see play. Only cards that makes it better isn't a bad idea.

Well, thats my 2 cents for now. =)

[erdjinn]

Fire//Ice is not good enough imo. I know it's good, but i think lightning bolt may be better.
**It's less of a stretch on your manabase and it smothes out your curve more.
I know you want to move away from scepter depency, but don't forget

I completely disagree with that. Fire/Ice is one of the best spells you can inprint on the Scepter.

I see nobody read the primer of Scepter control, and that's a pity because the article is really good.

Here's the UWr list:

Mana
8 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
Denial
2 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
Control
3 Fire // Ice
3 Cunning Wish
4 Isochron Scepter
3 Orim's Chant
3 Swords to Plowshares
Win
2 Morphling

It fits your list:
Graveyard dependency: none
Creatureless win: Scepter, and Morphling can't be Plowshared
Maindeck hate: Cunning Wish


Lands (21)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 City of Brass
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory

Please compare the 2 manabases: 24 lands against 21 (with 1 unfetchable mountain and 3 colorless). I think 21 are too few even with a little lower average cc cost.
Why 3 Flooded Strand and 2 Polluted Delta and not 4 and 1? Delta cannot grab Plateau nor Plains.

[Illissius]

Wouldn't Memory Lapse be better than Mana Leak here? It can create a soft lock with a Scepter.

[HPC]

Fire//Ice on the scepter is rather good, but often times I'm trying to race to a chant-lock in order to stop the bleeding aggro can cause. What do people think about adding 1x Humility and 4x Enlightened Tutors main deck? And can the deck be remade to use Ancient Tomb to support a quicker combo and other cards like Humility and Teferi?

[Maverick676]

I have played URW scepter control alot, and I have a few points of insight to share.

1) Cunning wish is WAY to slow for this deck, and there just aren't that many different spells that you would want on the scepter. Orim's Chant, Lightning Helix, and Fire/Ice being the main three you should imprint. Counterspell can sometimes be effective depending on the deck you are playing against.

2) Lightning Helix should be a 4 of in the deck. Helix is quite possibly the best spell to imprint on a scepter. Against aggro the removal + lifegain make it impossible for them to win. I use to run fire/ice, but I think the lifegain from helix outweights fire/ice ability to tap a fatty, swords or helix on stick plus other burn can deal with just about every creatured played in the format.

3) Morphling is a bad finisher right now, one pithing needle can deal with all of your morphlings. Exalted angel or eternal dragon are much better finishers. While they can be plowed, it forces your opponent to trade 1 for 1 instead of 1 for 2-4. Although I never needed a finisher in the deck besides scepter or mishra's factory.

EDIT:

4) Orim's chant is not neccessary in the deck, usually Lightning Helix is as effective against aggro decks. Against combo meddling mage, stifle, ect. are much better answers. Chant lock is a neat trick but it is not needed in a scepter control build, you should able to lock down the game without it.

[erdjinn]

I have played URW scepter control alot, and I have a few points of insight to share.

Great. Thanks.



1) Cunning wish is WAY to slow for this deck, and there just aren't that many different spells that you would want on the scepter. Orim's Chant, Lightning Helix, and Fire/Ice being the main three you should imprint. Counterspell can sometimes be effective depending on the deck you are playing against.

I don't agree with this. I have always liked having a wishboard and Wish has won really many games. Wish doesn't always search for an instant to imprint on the scepter, but can also take the needed answer, from Misdirection to StP to Disenchant.
I would cut FoF before cutting the Wish.



2) Lightning Helix should be a 4 of in the deck. Helix is quite possibly the best spell to imprint on a scepter. Against aggro the removal + lifegain make it impossible for them to win. I use to run fire/ice, but I think the lifegain from helix outweights fire/ice ability to tap a fatty, swords or helix on stick plus other burn can deal with just about every creatured played in the format.

Having both our split colors Lightning Helix is almost uncastable without a scepter. On the other hand Fire/Ice is never dead. I have 1 Lightning Helix in the board.



3) Morphling is a bad finisher right now, one pithing needle can deal with all of your morphlings. Exalted angel or eternal dragon are much better finishers. While they can be plowed, it forces your opponent to trade 1 for 1 instead of 1 for 2-4. Although I never needed a finisher in the deck besides scepter or mishra's factory.

I agree with you that Morphling isn't unbreakable, but both Angel and Dragon require double white and cannot be pitched to FoW. This may be a problem so I run 1 Exalted Angel and 1 Morphling. I have also tried 1 Decree of Justice and it was quite good too.
I suggest to choose 2 different among the 4 options.
I admit I have never tested the Factory, but we are not Landstill and have no Crucible, so I prefer to keep a stronger the manabase.
To improve the manabase I also run a basic Plains for 1 Tundra.



4) Orim's chant is not neccessary in the deck, usually Lightning Helix is as effective against aggro decks. Against combo meddling mage, stifle, ect. are much better answers. Chant lock is a neat trick but it is not needed in a scepter control build, you should able to lock down the game without it.
Chant lock is really good against aggro and sorcery speed combo. Anyway I agree that you can use other spells on the Scepter and still have nice effects. I imprint Fire/Ice more often than Chant.

[imran]

@ Erdjinn

Just for defence, I have read the primer, but it seems really outdated. Decks have adapted and are far stronger than in the beginning of 2005.

The decks presented in the primer have the following problems:

Mana
8 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra

The Manabase has no basic Plain. If you want to play the Swords on your first turn, you fetch it either with your Fetchlands or you have it in your hand. With the current amount of Stifle/Wastelands, I am pretty sure that you will loose the Tundra within the first 2 turns.

Denial
2 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

That seems allright, especially if you consider what this deck is aiming for.

Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Fact or Fiction? That must be a joke, 4 Mana till the fourth turn without missing a landdrop and not playing against Wasteland, why do you want to outtap and draw cards when Goblins is trying to overrun you with 10 creatures? 4 seems really too high.

Control
3 Fire // Ice
3 Cunning Wish
4 Isochron Scepter
3 Orim's Chant
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Cunning wish means, that you outtap for a threat that you can earliest play on your 4th turn, not really effective and really slow. Your only first turn removal is Force and Swords (in combination with Tundra).

Win
2 Morphling

What I really like is the Win Condition. If you control the board you can win with the Morphling easily in 4 turns.

What I really miss is the Mass Removal. You cant stop every threat Goblins plays with Pin-Point-Removal. They will simply overrun you. What you need is the following:
1) Protect your mana
this is simple, no mana no win. You can play the best spells, if you don’t have the Mana two play it.

2) Pin-Point-Removal
You need Pin-Point-Removal to kill Wearbear’s and Lackey’s.

3) Mass Removal
You just need the Mass Removal once in the game. Kill 2 or 3 Gobbos with a well timed Pyroclasm and the game is yours.

I am missing the point 1 and 3, so I really guess this one is outdated.
But this is just my opinion.

** Cunning Wish
I have to agree with Maverick. Cunning Wish is really too slow, this is not Vintage and we are not playing with Ancient Tomb.

** Lightning Helix
Is in my opinion not a four of. The most important card in this Deck is the Magma Jet. The Scry is worth gold and this deck is really mana light. Due to this, you can optimise your following turns.

** Fire // Ice
Regarding Fire // Ice, it’s the best and the most flexible spell to be imprinted on a Scepter, but the problem is, that a Scepter can be countered, the imprint can be stifled and the activation can be needled. Fire // Ice is strong and on the Scepter even better, but the Scepter is to easily hateable. Especially since the print of cards like Krosan Grip.

You need spells, that lead you to a save Fire // Ice – Scepter Combo, you need to set that stuff up and you need to live long enough to tell the other about it. Due to this, Fire // Ice should NOT be played as a 4-of.

** Humilty (MD)
Seems like a really good idea, but I would combine this one with Decree of Justice. Double White seems really tough, so the question is, why not just play with Exalted?
If I have two completely independent Win Conditions, the opponent has much more problems removing them. Kill with either Scepter or with Exalted, meaning don’t side out your Artifact Hate AND your Creature Hate, cause either of my Win Conditions can kill you easily if they stay untouched.

**Secondary Win Condition
I agree with erdjinn would suggest to add 1 Exalted and 1 Morphling as secondary Win conditions.

** Question left
I think, rather than talking about cards, we should try to talk about the amount of Burn Spells that should be uses, what is the perfect configuration…

1-Mana Removal
3 Swords to Plowshares

2-Mana Removal
4 Magma Jet
3 Fire // Ice
2 Lightning Helix
2 Pyroclasm

Each of this spell is strong on a Scepter, the thing is what amount to play of which spell?
How many first turn answers do we need for a Lackey?
Do we need Mass Removal?
Do we need a secondary Win Condition?
How important is Library Manipulation (Magma Jet, Fire // Ice) compared to Life Gain (Lightning Helix)?
How much of each is necessary especially, if Exalted Angel is also played as secondary Win-Condition?
Is it necessary to play with four Isochron Scepter or are three enough?

[erdjinn]

@ Erdjinn

Just for defence, I have read the primer,

Unfortunately not everybody did.



but it seems really outdated. Decks have adapted and are far stronger than in the beginning of 2005.

I agree, but it is not a good reason for starting from zero.
Some aspect may change with time, but some other don't.
Just to make an example Wasteland and Mishra's Factory already exist.



The decks presented in the primer have the following problems:

Mana
8 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra

The Manabase has no basic Plain. If you want to play the Swords on your first turn, you fetch it either with your Fetchlands or you have it in your hand. With the current amount of Stifle/Wastelands, I am pretty sure that you will loose the Tundra within the first 2 turns.

I added the basic Plains, too. (I said this in my last post). It won't save me from Stifle but helps against Wasteland. I'd say that's not a big change.
Unfortunately there's no help for the basic Mountain, so either we go the UR route or we try to limit the number of red spells.

Where is this manabase better?
Lands (21)
3 Flooded Strand (why not 4?)
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath (why this? It can fetch only 5 lands, all fetchable by f. Strand, are you afraid of Needle on F. Strand?)
1 City of Brass (?)
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory (?)



Denial
2 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

That seems allright, especially if you consider what this deck is aiming for.

Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Fact or Fiction? That must be a joke, 4 Mana till the fourth turn without missing a landdrop and not playing against Wasteland, why do you want to outtap and draw cards when Goblins is trying to overrun you with 10 creatures? 4 seems really too high.

I agree that 4 are too much. I suggest taking out some FoF (maybe 2) for some removal, probably Pyroclasm.



Control
3 Fire // Ice
3 Cunning Wish
4 Isochron Scepter
3 Orim's Chant
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Cunning wish means, that you outtap for a threat that you can earliest play on your 4th turn, not really effective and really slow. Your only first turn removal is Force and Swords (in combination with Tundra).

Win
2 Morphling

What I really like is the Win Condition. If you control the board you can win with the Morphling easily in 4 turns.

What I really miss is the Mass Removal. You cant stop every threat Goblins plays with Pin-Point-Removal. They will simply overrun you. What you need is the following:
1) Protect your mana
this is simple, no mana no win. You can play the best spells, if you don’t have the Mana two play it.

2) Pin-Point-Removal
You need Pin-Point-Removal to kill Wearbear’s and Lackey’s.

3) Mass Removal
You just need the Mass Removal once in the game. Kill 2 or 3 Gobbos with a well timed Pyroclasm and the game is yours.

I am missing the point 1 and 3, so I really guess this one is outdated.
But this is just my opinion.

Mana was exactly the problem with the list I saw posted. They have less lands (21) and more out of color spells. You can't play 10 red spells with a single basic Mountain and no fetch to take it.




** Cunning Wish
I have to agree with Maverick. Cunning Wish is really too slow, this is not Vintage and we are not playing with Ancient Tomb.

We are not going to win in 4 turns, we have a middle-long term plan. Wish is really good then.
Anyway, I don't agree and this is clear. But let's say I did. What do you play in its place. Another red burn spell?



** Lightning Helix
Is in my opinion not a four of. The most important card in this Deck is the Magma Jet. The Scry is worth gold and this deck is really mana light. Due to this, you can optimise your following turns.

** Fire // Ice
Regarding Fire // Ice, it’s the best and the most flexible spell to be imprinted on a Scepter, but the problem is, that a Scepter can be countered, the imprint can be stifled and the activation can be needled. Fire // Ice is strong and on the Scepter even better, but the Scepter is to easily hateable. Especially since the print of cards like Krosan Grip.

You need spells, that lead you to a save Fire // Ice – Scepter Combo, you need to set that stuff up and you need to live long enough to tell the other about it. Due to this, Fire // Ice should NOT be played as a 4-of.

** Humilty (MD)
Seems like a really good idea, but I would combine this one with Decree of Justice. Double White seems really tough, so the question is, why not just play with Exalted?

Really good question. Or maybe answer.



If I have two completely independent Win Conditions, the opponent has much more problems removing them. Kill with either Scepter or with Exalted, meaning don’t side out your Artifact Hate AND your Creature Hate, cause either of my Win Conditions can kill you easily if they stay untouched.

**Secondary Win Condition
I agree with erdjinn would suggest to add 1 Exalted and 1 Morphling as secondary Win conditions.

** Question left
I think, rather than talking about cards, we should try to talk about the amount of Burn Spells that should be uses, what is the perfect configuration…

1-Mana Removal
3 Swords to Plowshares

2-Mana Removal
4 Magma Jet
3 Fire // Ice
2 Lightning Helix
2 Pyroclasm

Each of this spell is strong on a Scepter, the thing is what amount to play of which spell?

Unless we add more Mountains I wouldn't play more than 3 Fire//Ice and 2 Pyroclasm.



How many first turn answers do we need for a Lackey?

3 StP + 4 FoW are probably enough if we add some second turn answer for Lackey and whatever our opponent drops with it.



Do we need Mass Removal?

Yes. Do we need Mass Removal maindeck? Not sure.



Do we need a secondary Win Condition?

Yes.



How important is Library Manipulation (Magma Jet, Fire // Ice) compared to Life Gain (Lightning Helix)?

The problem with Helix is that it is red and white. Anyway I prefer drawing, but I wouldn't run 4 Jets.



How much of each is necessary especially, if Exalted Angel is also played as secondary Win-Condition?

Only 1 Angel doesn't change much.



Is it necessary to play with four Isochron Scepter or are three enough?
If you're not playing Wish don't play 4 Scepters.

Thank you imran for your post.

[imran]

@ erdjinn
So, what do you think about creating a new UWR list, just a core list with the minimum amount of cards. I have created a list, which includes most of the suggestions in this thread.

Lands (min 24)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath (Yes I am afraid of the Needle)
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Plain
2 Mountain
?? Mishras Factory

Blue (min 18)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell/Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Morphling

Red (min 5)
3 Magma Jet
2 Pyroclasm

White (3)
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Exalted Angel

Multicolor (min 5)
3 Fire // Ice
2 Lightning Helix

Artifact (min 3)
3 Isochron Scepter

Thats a rough total of 60 cards, which should give us plenty of room to play with. The question is, which route should this deck go now?

The most important question is, is this the list, Hanni wants?
It would be really good to get an update from him !

[Maverick676]

@ erdjinn
So, what do you think about creating a new UWR list, just a core list with the minimum amount of cards. I have created a list, which includes most of the suggestions in this thread.

Lands (min 24)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath (Yes I am afraid of the Needle)
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Plain
2 Mountain
?? Mishras Factory

Blue (min 18)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell/Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Morphling

Red (min 5)
3 Magma Jet
2 Pyroclasm

White (3)
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Exalted Angel

Multicolor (min 5)
3 Fire // Ice
2 Lightning Helix

Artifact (min 3)
3 Isochron Scepter

Thats a rough total of 60 cards, which should give us plenty of room to play with. The question is, which route should this deck go now?

The most important question is, is this the list, Hanni wants?
It would be really good to get an update from him !

This list is WAY too unfocused. First of all scepter control should run 4 scepters. Second you're removal is way to diverse. Stick with 4 of's so you can count on having them when you need them. 4 Swords to plowshares and 4 Lightning Helix are a must. In addition you could add fire/ice, or magma jet, or lightning bolt.

This manabase is just plain stupid. Do not run basic mountains with no way to fetch them ( I never thought this would need saying but apparently I was wrong). Also run 4 Flooded 3 Polluted Delta, No one is going to needle you're fetchlands when your playing isochron scepter. Polluted delta and flooded strand are the most popular fetchlands in 1.5, most decks run them and will not needle their own lands.

[erdjinn]

This list is WAY too unfocused. First of all scepter control should run 4 scepters. Second you're removal is way to diverse. Stick with 4 of's so you can count on having them when you need them. 4 Swords to plowshares and 4 Lightning Helix are a must. In addition you could add fire/ice, or magma jet, or lightning bolt.

This manabase is just plain stupid. Do not run basic mountains with no way to fetch them ( I never thought this would need saying but apparently I was wrong). Also run 4 Flooded 3 Polluted Delta, No one is going to needle you're fetchlands when your playing isochron scepter. Polluted delta and flooded strand are the most popular fetchlands in 1.5, most decks run them and will not needle their own lands.

I think the problem of a deck with so many burn spells is the manabase.
Is it possible to fit in a single deck these cards:
- Counterspell (UU)
- FoW (requires many blue cards to be effective)
- Exalted Angel (WW...)
- Lightning Helix (RW)
- 5 other red spells (R...)
without being screwed by Wasteland?

I think running a UWR deck is not possible. BUW (friend colors) may be possible.
So the problem is to choose which way to go:
a) a Uwr deck (no more than 10 spells with W or R in the casting cost, no Helix)
b) a UR deck (out: StP, Helix, Angel - in: Lightning Bolt, Magma Jet, Masticore?)
c) a UW deck (out: burn - in: WoG, Decree of Justice?)

That's my opinion. What's yours?

[imran]

I am not really sure, whether this list is unfocused or not.
The removal looks maybe unfocused, but there are a lot of cards, that have a double role.

Let look on the list in another way:

Creature Control (23)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell/Mana Leak
3 Magma Jet
2 Pyroclasm
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fire // Ice
4 Lightning Helix

Win Condition (6)
1 Morphling
2 Exalted Angel
3 Isochron Scepter

Library Manipulation (12)
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Magma Jet
3 Fire // Ice

Life Gain (6)
4 Lightning Helix
2 Exalted Angel

I have the following in the deck:
Creature Control (23)
Win Condition (6)
Library Manipulation (12)
Life Gain (6)

I have 36 cards, that I use to create these effects. Some cards just have double roles:
Fire // Ice, Magma Jet, Exalted Angel and Lightning Helix are the best examples for this.

I would not go below 3 with Magma Jet, the double role it has is just too good. The library optimisation on turn 2 with the effect to kill a creature is just too good.

I have chosen to play with only 3 Isochron due to the fact, that I want to avoid kills by a Needle.

I guess it is possible to create a stable 3 Color Manabae.
I would just change the requirements:
The base color should be Blue.
The next question are the basic lands. How many do we need? And when do we need them? Due to the fact, that we want to play Counterspell, we need Islands. And due to the fact, that we want to play with Exalted (which requires double white), two Plains and one Mountain. No red spell needs double Red, so playing with only one Mountain should be also fine.
What I would do is, adding City of Brass to stabilize the Mana even more, but two should be enough.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island

2 City of Brass

4 Island
2 Plain
1 Mountain

The problem is, the Counterspell. The risk having Counterspell and Lightning Helix is too big. If we would play with Mana Leak and not with Counterspell, the Mana Base would look much different.

Just remember, we need double white not in the beginning, only Exalted Angel need it, and we are a control Deck, not Angel Stompy :-)

Opinions?

[erdjinn]

Why City of Brass? City of Brass against Rishadan Port is bad and Goblin packs at least 2 Ports (and we have no Wasteland). City is "Wastable" so I'd rather go with the shock dual if you really feel the need (personally I don't).

I think 1 Plains is enough. We need only 1 for StP/Helix and casting Angel in the late game is not a problem. (BTW, why 2 Angels and 1 Morphling? I think 2 fatties are enough)

1 single Mountain is not enough. When will you draw it?

So what do I suggest?
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire

4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island

0 City of Brass

4 Island
1 Plains
3 Mountain

"The problem is, the Counterspell."
Yes, and also FoW with only 14 other blue spells.

[Maverick676]

In a deck like this you'll find that having a basic mountain is unimportant. Your opponent will not see more than 2 wastelands usually ,and you should run 6-8 fetchlands along with 4 volcanic island, which will insure that you will have red mana available. The important basic to have is islands and to a lesser extent plains. While finding 1 mana of a color is easy finding 2 of the same color through wasteland becomes more difficult.

EDIT: the manabase I would recommend is

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
2 Plains
7 Island (if you run mishra's factory go -4 island)