[Discussion] Importing Tech from Extended?

[etrigan]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af148

The first deck immediately runs into some trouble: Mind's Desire is banned in Legacy. Invasion sac lands look like they have some potential though, if you're willing to give up Brainstorming your first few turns in favor of developping your mana.

Second deck looks interesting, but I dont know if it will make it. The deck itself lacks the Blue to pitch to FoW, and lacks the black (in its current configuration) to run Duress. Plenty of White though, which makes Abeyance and/or Orim's Chant an option, although it might dilute the deck a bit much.

The Goblin deck looks strong though. Goblins is already strong in this format, and is already splashing colors, so it's no drain on the mana base. The acceleration's better in Legacy, the tutoring's better in Legacy, so I dont see why it couldn't succeed.

What do you think?

[edgewalker]

The sunny side up deck is already played in legacy, people have just forgotten about it. I would also suspect that it was played in legacy long before the french got their hands on it. It was technically played even before second sunrise came out. With that said, I think it's a viable deck. It requires more luck than the other combo decks, but kills quicker and is less disruptable. I'm sure someone will stop by and post one of the most recent lists.

[Bryant Cook]

I'm glad to see TEPS was stolen... Mr.Nightmare will agree with this... EPIC has been working on the deck that went 5-1 for the last 2 months.

[Zilla]

As far as the Goblins combo deck is concerned, it does look pretty tasty... I was certainly sorry to see FCG go when Recruiter was banned. That said, I think the deck faces some very real problems in this format, all of which make me sceptical of its viability:

1. Put in very simple terms, it's a storm-based combo deck mashed together with a Goblins deck. Two of the three best decks in the format are storm combo and goblins respectectively, so on paper it should seem good.

In practice, the Goblins aspect is weaker than its Vial-based counterpart, and its Storm aspect is arguably weaker than Solidarity.

2. The format is well prepared and packing a lot of hate for both Goblins and storm combo. since this deck is a fusion, it is incidentally weak to two kinds of hate, not just one.

3. If I'm not mistaken, the combo aspect of the deck has real problems with Leyline of the Void in addition to the myriad other anti-Storm hate which is pervasive in the format. Fecundity requires your creatures to go to the yard in order to trigger a draw, and Leyline supercedes this, which turns the deck from Storm combo to weaker Goblins combo.

4. In terms of combo, the deck is more fragile than Solidarity. While the format is largely lacking in control decks, Thresh is a very real presence which can counter key cards in this deck's combo, including Prospector, Fecundity, and Rituals. Thenm it comes down to a ground war which this deck is less prepared to win than Vial Goblins is. No Vial to get around countermagic, and no uncounterable Ringleaders for late game draw means this is a race Thresh can win much more easily.


Basically, while the deck is a bit faster than Solidarity, it's much easier to disrupt. While it has a combo aspect, its aggro aspect is almost strictly worse than Vial Goblins. In my opinion, if combo is good in your meta, there's not a lot of reason to play this over Solidarity, and if combo is bad in your meta, there's not a lot of reason to play this over Vial Goblins.

[DeathwingZERO]

My thoughts is the Goblin deck relies far too much on Fecundity and Skirk Prospecter to actually build itself, which seems to be very unstable for a format that has turn 0 counterspells. Hitting Fecundity or Prospector early basically makes this slower than Vial Goblins, and from the looks of it much easier to steamroll over. Without Ringleader to up the draws, you can't topdeck this one nearly as well as Legacy's Goblin deck.

As for the Tendrils deck, I personally believe it's just another Extended creation that we'll be missing out on in Legacy. Brainstorm > Top, we don't have access to Mind's Desire (the focus of that deck), and Lotus Bloom is useless, as we can't wait for turn 4. In addition, the manabase is horribly unstable, and Sins of the Past is just garbage for what we do with storm count (while they get to abuse it with something like Mind's Desire).

All in all, I believe TES is the closest thing we've got to a working B/R/u list, and even then, it's not running at it's best yet. I think it'll be better to work on that list than try to port this one over, as they want to achieve the same goal, we just want it much faster in Legacy.

EDIT: Oh and Wastedlife: Try not to give yourselves too much credit for the deck concept. B/R storm has been being built as a deck archetype in Extended since red's rituals came out in Mirrodin and Champions, even a couple of my friends and I had a list with Desire for 1.x last year. That particular version that placed has been in the works for almost 2 years now, I had friends at PTQ's talking about the builds showing up more often at last year's Extended tournaments. The only real change this one has that made it place higher was making the Mind's Desire more effective with Lotus Bloom and Sins of the Past, giving them the ability to merge the broken plays Tendril's Desire with the consistency of Harvest Desire. TES was hardly stolen for Extended, they really look nothing the same.

[Bryant Cook]

My thoughts is the Goblin deck relies far too much on Fecundity and Skirk Prospecter to actually build itself, which seems to be very unstable for a format that has turn 0 counterspells. Hitting Fecundity or Prospector early basically makes this slower than Vial Goblins, and from the looks of it much easier to steamroll over. Without Ringleader to up the draws, you can't topdeck this one nearly as well as Legacy's Goblin deck.

As for the Tendrils deck, I personally believe it's just another Extended creation that we'll be missing out on in Legacy. Brainstorm > Top, we don't have access to Mind's Desire (the focus of that deck), and Lotus Bloom is useless, as we can't wait for turn 4. In addition, the manabase is horribly unstable, and Sins of the Past is just garbage for what we do with storm count (while they get to abuse it with something like Mind's Desire).

All in all, I believe TES is the closest thing we've got to a working B/R/u list, and even then, it's not running at it's best yet. I think it'll be better to work on that list than try to port this one over, as they want to achieve the same goal, we just want it much faster in Legacy.

EDIT: Oh and Wastedlife: Try not to give yourselves too much credit for the deck concept. B/R storm has been being built as a deck archetype in Extended since red's rituals came out in Mirrodin and Champions, even a couple of my friends and I had a list with Desire for 1.x last year. That particular version that placed has been in the works for almost 2 years now, I had friends at PTQ's talking about the builds showing up more often at last year's Extended tournaments. The only real change this one has that made it place higher was making the Mind's Desire more effective with Lotus Bloom and Sins of the Past, giving them the ability to merge the broken plays Tendril's Desire with the consistency of Harvest Desire. TES was hardly stolen for Extended, they really look nothing the same.

Not TES, TEPS. The Extended Perfect Storm it was developed on MTG Salvation by a bunch of kids then Nightmare brought it to EPIC and we've worked on the list since, which I believe our list was stolen. Nightmare contributed the most to the deck more than anyone, we as a team have all been testing different variants and have been looking for the best options for it. I know we didn't create but I have resentment.

[DeathwingZERO]

The way I see Magic decks is this: you'll never have proof you were the first with any given idea, short of having the first list to make top 8 somewhere. The basis of the decks kill condition (Desire -> Tendrils) has been around since Scourge anyways.

I wouldn't hold any resentment towards anyone playing a deck similiar to something I constructed on my own or with friends, in fact I'd actually be happy to see that the variant they had actually made top in such a diverse crowd. That alone would make me feel accomplished as a deck builder.

As I was saying before though, TPS was ported into an extended build just after the swap of the banned/restricted list, it just never made good numbers because it lacked such good mana development until now, with B/U having so little to work with. I'm just happy Desire is getting another facelift in Extended, it's easily the most broken card that format has right now. Too bad we'll never see it.

[Phantom Ogre]

The sunny side up deck is already played in legacy, people have just forgotten about it. I would also suspect that it was played in legacy long before the french got their hands on it. It was technically played even before second sunrise came out. With that said, I think it's a viable deck. It requires more luck than the other combo decks, but kills quicker and is less disruptable. I'm sure someone will stop by and post one of the most recent lists.

Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=551329)'s the link to my 20+ page thread over on the WotC boards and here (http://www.team-abs.net/eggs.html)'s the link to the primer I wrote. The thread has a lot of spam at the beginning and I need to fix the matchup section in the primer, but that's what people should be running if they plan to play the deck in Legacy.