[Deck] Mean Girls

[aisman132000]

Hi i'm new to the source, long time lurker first time poster. Here is a deck i have been working on as of late. it's sort of a R/W/u control deck that plays without counters and is a port of the flores R/W/u standard deck.

//NAME: Mean Girls
// Mana
2x mountain
2x Plains
4x Tundra
4x Plateau
4x Volcanic Island
4x wooded foothills
4x flooded strand
// Creatures
4x Lightning Angel
4x Exalted Angel
4x Serra Avenger
// Spells
4x Lightning bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Magma Jet
4x Wrath of God
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x brainstorm

// SB
4x Meddling Mage
4x Chalice of the void
4x True believer
3x Disenchant

Mana:
I think the mana base is pretty ok in general. I don't play any basic islands because not many of my cards have blue mana requirements.

Creatures:
I think this is pretty decent as well as my rather large creature base gives me a potentially quick clock once i gain control of the board. Lightning angel is a total beating against goblins and threshold as she has evasion and vigilance. She has a 3/4 body and can block mongeese/little green men all day. Serra Avenger is pretty good and can come down as early as turn 4 and chump block guys as well as fly over and smash face. Toughness of three is sort of problamatic as she dies to bolts and other unpleasantness but we can't have everything. Exalted angel is a total bomb and swings games. She feels a little bit on the expensive side but i figure what the heck.

Spells
Some of the most efficient kill spells in the game keep the board clear. Swords, bolt, helix, jet and wrath all do a good job of stopping the opponents early creature rush and can finish an opponent if it comes to that. brainstorm is a nice can trip and helps set up your draws.

SB
This deck sucks against combo as you have a pretty glacial clock and no disruption in the maindeck. swords and wrath are completly dead. As a result the sb focuses primarily in handling combo. mage, chalice and true believer are all pretty good against combo and you side them all in. disenchant is to take care of randomness.

What i didn't play

Counterspells: I know people will scream for force of will et all but in reality i don't feel like their needed. counters aren't that great against goblins due to vial and other shenanigans and i don't feel like their nessecary to beat threshold.

Isochron Scepter: Maybe this would be good i'm not sure. I might test it instead of serra avenger.

Flametongue Kavu: I really didn't like this in testing. 4/2 for 4 isn't great even if he takes out one of your opponets dorks. Too often he was getting chump blocked.

Jotun Grunt: i might play this guy as a 2 or 3 of. He's a beating against threshold for sure but i don't know if you have enough cantrips to keep him fed.

There are a whole bunch of other cards i could have played feel free to give feedback.

Matchups:

Goblins: this matchup feels really easy most of the time. You have a ton of stuff to kill their dorks and your guys are a lot bigger than theirs. pretty much what happens is you shoot any stuff they play early, wrath if nessecary, and then drop your bombs and kill them. I think this matchup is in favor of mean girls pre and post board.

Threshold: definetly harder than goblins their counters can be problamatic as getting wrath countered is no fun. However your guys can handle all of their guys plus you have excessive amounts of removal that can kill bears/mages/enforcers leaving nimble mongoose as their only really effective creature. after sb you bring in chalice. I think we all know what happens to threshold when chalice for one gets resolved. I haven't done all of the testing yet but i want to say that this matchup is slightly favorable but i have done a limited amount of testing.

Solidarity: You have no chance of beating solidarity in game one. zero. Post board however you bring in 12 cards that are all beatings against them and the matchup improves a lot. Still i would rather not play against solidarity. I want to say that this is even to slightly unfavorable but i haven't done enough testing.

Dead guy: their discard hurts you a lot but usually you can survive the initial disruption and recover. Serra avenger and lightning angel are relativly low costing and come online quickly. if the game ever goes long you have a solid advantage.

Random aggro: this deck can and does beat aggro an almost any form. just like goblins you kill stuff they play early, wrath, drop bombs. rinse and repeat.

Iggy: see solidarity


Obviously i haven't been able to do a whole lot of testing but i really like this deck. Please give me suggestions i would love to hear from you.

[Zilla]

Nice first post. Welcome to The Source.

A couple suggestions/questions:

1. Chalice seems terrible in the sideboard. I understand it's a solid anti-combo card, but you have a ton of cards in the 1cc slot, and after board you'll have many many in the 2cc slot as well. Obviously you'll be siding out some of your 1cc cards against combo, but it still seems questionable to me.

Given the colors you're running, it seems like you have a bunch of other viable anti-combo options, such as Rule of Law, Arcane Laboratory, Glowrider, or Pyrostatic Pillar.

Normally Chalice would be solid against other random decks like Thresh, but those are matchups where you're actually going to want to keep in a lot of your 1cc cards, which makes it much more symmetrical. For a purely anti-combo slot, I think I'd choose something else.

2. WoG is nice and all, but given that you're running creatures (and many of them are quite large), I'd strongly consider Cataclysm in this slot. It wipes all opposing creatures except one. On the plus side, you get to keep one too. Lightning Angel and Serra Avenger in particular have excellent synergy with this strategy, because they have Vigilance, which means they can play both offense and defense against your opponent's single threat, and in most cases they're going to be bigger as well.

Furthermore, unlike WoG, Cataclysm isn't dead against decks like Solidarity and Mono-White control, where you get an Armageddon-type effect, which can make a huge difference against them.

3. In keeping with suggestion number 2, consider a single copy of Flagstones of Trokair over a basic Plains. Synergy, mmmm.

4. Also in keeping with suggestion number 2, consider running Jitte as a 2 or 3 of. It has great synergy with Cataclysm, in that you get to keep an artifact as well, and can turn your single threat into a more significant one. It's also great with your creatures, since they have evasion and vigilance, meaning double the activations. Good times.

5. True Believer is pretty solid against Tendrils, but not so much against Solidarity, because they can bounce him with ease while they're going off. Glowrider is probably better here. It may be a vaguely symmetrical effect, but it slows combo down very significantly while it tries to go off, where True Believer just sits there and does nothing until your opponent is ready to bounce him. Just a thought.


Overall it looks pretty solid though. I'm a huge fan of aggro-control decks, and this one seems like it could be pretty solid. I've been testing the Cataclysm plan along with several other changes in Angel Stompy and I'm finding it to be a very solid strategy, so perhaps it will work here too. Good luck with it.

[aisman132000]

1. Chalice isn't as bad as youd think however your point is well made. I think i'll test rule of law or glowrider in that spot.

2.Cataclysm...WOW. If i had known this card existed i would have run it in a heartbeat. Excellent suggestion, i will make the change immediatly.

3. Flagstones seem like a good addition as well, maybe instead of basic plains? i'm not sure i'll go that far cause i don't want to be hosed by blood moon but the possible synergy is hot.

4. I could get into jitte, i'll consider it but it seems like it could be a win more at times.

5. i see your point about true believer maybe of law, glowrider or pillar.

thanks for the feedback

[aznfoodgood]

Wow, a flash back to star-spangled slaughter one of the coolest deck names ever, and this one even cooler! Alright so I just ran a deck list that was a lot like the one you are currently running, there were some major tweaks but over all, I think the deck concept is fairly similar, hear goes

Lands 24
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
3 volcanic island
3 plateau
3 plains
2 mountains
1 island

artifacts
2 izzet signet
2 azorius signet

creatures
4 lightning angel
4 exulted angle

can trips/ card advantage
4 brainstorm
4 fact or fiction

control, because after all, that’s what this deck does
4 wrath of god
4 swords to plowshares
4 lightning bolt
Ready for this? 4 demon fire

SB
4 meddling mage
3 disenchant
4 glow rider
4 chalice of the void

ok hears some of the card reasoning as to how this deck works, hopefully it will supplement aismans ideas.

Land base- your playing control and hitting land drops ins very important as I quickly learned. Using 6 basics means I’m less susceptible to waste land.

Signets- yes much like the type 2 decks, this deck runs signet for speed. WHAT TURN 3 LIGHTNING ANGLE OMGWTFBBQ

Can trips and advantage- brainstorm= U, find an answer and fact or fiction = U3 draw 3 cards and win the game. Obviously they found a way into this deck because of there power.

Control- yes wrath, swords, bolt are all well and good but demon fire?!?!? Yes, this card wins games. Off of the top deck it is simply amazing, counters? COP red? Nope nothings stopping this ched from hitting the dome, that its except for solitary confinement, as I learned the hard way.

Any ways I must go now, ill have some mach up analysis tomorrow.

[aisman132000]

after playing around with cataclysm for a whilei found that it's not as flexible as wrath of god as i have to have a guy in play for it to be worth it. as a result i've lost games where i had to clear their board and i didn't have anything in play. Also in some situations i was getting my guy swordsed or gempalmed in response which was bad times. I do however like how it gives you an armageddon type effect though and it was outstanding in control matchups where wrath would have been essentially a dead card. i'm not entirely sold on it over wrath of god though. maybe like a 2/2 split? i don't know that sounds janky to me. sb? thoughts?

the demonfire long term plan seems ok as it allows me to go long and beat control decks by demon firing their nug for eight. However, i think using it as removal might be dubious. Fact or Fiction seems nice in this deck but i'm not sure it's entirely nesssecary. obviously more testing is needed.

[aznfoodgood]

I also took a good hard look into cataclysm and came up with this idea, cataclysm very powerful with the use of counters like daze, force of will and possibly misdirection. Often having that answer for there answer is what makes this deck just plain win. Any thoughts on scepter or tutors? It seems like you could run burning wish or possibly cunning wish to find certain cards that are game breaking. Possibly run MD flagstones and sb Armageddon? More signet and in turn more board sweeps possibly even flame break and removal of avenger? Just some ideas.

[aisman132000]

counters are a no go. i hate that they are reactive and i feel like you sacrifice too much imho in the goblins matchup. After all you don't need to resolve cataclysm to win. sceptor seems like a possibility as i mentioned before, maybe in place of serra avenger? but then that would make cataclysm worse. i don't like tutors for this deck, i want to stay aggresive as possible.

[Tao]

While you mentioned that your deck has a bad Combo matchup you forgot that it has an even worse Control matchup.

You have a total of 12 threats that come online not before turn 4. They all are targetable creatures, your carddraw are 4 Brainstorms and the deck has no disruption. You simply cannot beat any Control deck in the format: Rifter, Rabit Wombat (Mono W Control), Truffle Shuffle (GBW Control), Landstill, Rock, SurvivalRock, RG/SA, Loam Control and MBC (Helldozer.dec) are all autolosses pre and post sideboard.

Suggestion:

- 4 Swords to Plowshares
- 4 Wrath of God
+ 4 Jitte
+ 4 Meddling Mage

Meddling Mage can name Swords and Jitte is good against Combo and Control.

[Cait_Sith]

Would you consider Pyroclasm over Wrath of God? It avoids all your creatures but still wipes out your opponents cheap littles dudes. Plus it makes Goblins become rather... upset.

[aisman132000]

Tao: your definetly right about the control matchup, it's incredibly difficult. The only control deck i've played is truffle shuffle and i absolutly got rocked. this is why i felt that cataclysm was good as it would give you a weapon against control. Honestly though i don't see a whole lot of control in my metagame so i'm not to worried about it. it doesn't seem like control gets played a whole lot in general in this format as blue based control is all but dead. Meddling mage was orginally in the deck but i took it out for magma jet, maybe it should go back in. jitte has been suggested twice so i definetly will try it.

As far as pyroclasm is concerned i'm not a huge fan of it. the reason being is it can't kill arguably the best creature in the format nimble mongoose.

[Cait_Sith]

It can kill Mongoose pre-thresh easily. Afterwards side in Tormod's Crypt. It does better than Magma Jet.

[aisman132000]

point taken cait it's just that i don't know if i have room in the board for crypt. 4 cataclysm/wog, 4 pyroclasm sounds hot though. it's probably worth a try.

[Cait_Sith]

Never a problem. Not to be rude but
1) Take your time with your posts. You can make sure your english is all good and sexxie!
2) It's Cait. C-A-I-T. Thank you and have a nice millenium.

[aisman132000]

Thank you all for your input. This is the deck list that i've been testing

//NAME: Mean Girls
// Mana
1x mountain
1x island
2x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Tundra
4x Plateau
4x Volcanic Island
4x wooded foothills
4x flooded strand
// Creatures
4x Lightning Angel
4x Exalted Angel
4x Serra Avenger
2x Meddling Mage
// Spells
4x Lightning bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Cataclysm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x brainstorm
// Equipment
2x Umezawa's jitte

// SB
2x Meddling Mage
4x Rule of Law
4x Glowrider
3x Disenchant
2x Jotun Grunt

I'm liking how it plays so far but i will have to continue testing.

[aznfoodgood]

YES! I like the evolution of the deck, being able to deal with both agro and combo means there are 2 less deck types to worry about but hears a big question, many control decks use massive amounts of card advantage to win the games, while your opponent is using his draw step to gain the “beat down” you can use a large draw engine in order to find an answer to his dude.
Land still- their card advantage, wile rather week, is standstill and proclaim/ wrath of god
Scepter chant- use of wrath of god to control as well as fact or fiction to find an answer or a beat down finisher
Truffle shuffle- uses deed and numerous board sweeps in order to control and gain the upper hand. The card advantage is sum what small in the form of grave shell scarab.
Any ways, you can see the above 3 decks all have a way of finding an answer through enormous amounts of draw and or finding cards with can trips and tops. So hears my argument, where the draw? If the other decks were so strong, why is there no way to draw more cards in this deck? Shouldn’t fact or fiction be considered more heavily in this deck? Jitte and various bombs are strong but with out counters, there is no real way to protect them, 2 mages? Im not saying that this deck should be running counters but what I am trying to promote is the use of a MEGA draw card or an engine that will allow you to accumulate card advantage over your opponent.

[Zilla]

It should be noted that you don't need a draw engine to beat control. In fact, most dedicated control decks are always going to have a stronger draw engine than you do, making them inherently advantaged in the card advantage war.

The main thing that all these control decks are weak against is land destruction. You already have Cataclysm, and that goes a long way in these matchups. 2 Armageddons in the board to bolster this strategy would likely put you over the top in these matchups. Just a thought.

As for the Flagstones of Trokair, I'm not sure howe I feel about two of them. The Legendary status isn't that big a problem, but the lack of a basic white source could be, since a lot of your key spells require at least one white. Were it me, I think I'd go with 1 Flagstones / 1 basic Plains. If I were going to run 2 Flagstones, I think the second one would replace a Plateau.

[aisman132000]

I agree with godzilla, this deck can't beat control on card advantage (card draw). if it tries to than it won't be able to keep up and eventually they'll win. I like the cataclysm plan, geddon out of the board might not be bad. Instead of grunt possibly? I am however starting to like the idea of jotun grunt in the md. he's great after cataclysm.

[Zilla]

Grunt in the maindeck might not be bad. You have a lot of low cc instants and fetches to fill your yard, it's got synergy with Cataclysm, and it's a house against Thresh. I'd be inclined to run it in the Avenger slot. While Avenger has some solid synergy with Cataclysm because of vigilance, it really limits your early plays. It also forces you to wait until turn 5 to play Cataclysm if it's your only threat in hand.

Too many Grunts in the early game can be a bad thing too though. I didn't realize you weren't running it, but I'd be strongly inclined to run Magma Jet over Lightning Helix. I'm of the strong opinion (after a great deal of testing) that Magma Jet is one of the very best burn spells ever printed. It's less swingy on the life totals than Helix, but it helps smooth your draws a great deal and lets you dig for the threats you need when you need them. This is especially important games 2 and 3 against combo, because it lets you dig for hate.

If you have Brainstorm and Jet to smooth your draws some, I think I'd run 3 Grunts and get a third Meddling Mage in the maindeck as well. Ideally, you'd want a full four, since they give you early plays, are good in multiples, and are easily playable after a Cataclysm, which give your opponents less ways to recover. With 8 draw fixers, I'm thinking the deck may be able to run fairly smoothly on 23 lands, which would give you the room you need for the fourth Mage.

Also, if you're going to run four Rule of Law, I'd suggest a 2/2 split between Rule of Law and Arcane Lab. They do the exact same thing, but this configuration helps protect you from Echoing Truth, which is one of combo's main outs to the card. Then again, I might consider Pyrostatic Pillar in this slot, because it's good against both Storm combo and Thresh. It also comes out a turn earlier, which can be very important against Tendrils combo.

Lastly, if you want to be truly optimal, you'll go with a 2/2 split on Foothills and Bloodstained Mires to protect yourself from Pithing Needle.

I'm thinking something like this:


//NAME: Mean Girls (and Guys, apparently)

// Mana
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Tundra
3 Plateau
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
4 Lightning Angel
4 Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Cataclysm

// Equipment
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Pithing Needle**
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 2 Rule of Law*
SB: 2 Arcane Laboratory*
SB: 4 Glowrider
SB: 2 Armageddon

* Could be 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
**I tossed a couple Needles in the board because they can help you in myriad ways, and they always seem to be a nice option in case you need them. This could be Tormod's Crypt if you see a lot of Thresh and Iggy Pop in your meta, or whatever else, depending on what your weak matchups are.

[aznfoodgood]

Guess what, after reading gozillas post about magma jet in this article and in his article about zilla stompy 2k6 I’m incline to agree with him. I think that aisman will also agree as he favors burn + card smoothing as well (long time RDW player). I also have one thing to note, using cataclysm after resolving a grunt means he’s going to be there for a LONG TIME, and probably be able to finish off your opponent. So far, this deck seems to be very stable, is there any way it could be faster? Signets? Moxes? Surely a turn 3 cataclysm would be devastating. Just some quick thoughts

[aisman132000]

i really like how this is coming together. As far as manna accel goes i don't think we have enough room, the decklist seems pretty tight as is.

[aznfoodgood]

agreed, i think this deck list just needs some testing to figure out how to play it, once we get a good idea on how it plays, we can change the deck around but for now, all it needs is play testing.

[aznfoodgood]

Hey ever one I’m just dropping in a post of a new potential bomb that I found wile browsing star city games’ cards
Rakavolver
R2
For a 2/2
Kicker U and or W1
U kicker, +1/+1 and flying
W kicker +2/+2 and spirit link

Sounds like exulted angel but with 1 more power? Sweet ill take it, and you can drop it earlier if necessary as a 3/3 flyer or a 4/4 spirit link

Could be good? Could be bad? Is exulted angel all that you need? Is it a replacement?

Just some quick questions on a new card idea.

[aisman132000]

the only time you would play that card is with the white kicker. the blue kicker is just awful, four mana for a flying hill giant? i think i'll pass. if you pay it with the white kicker it's just like exalted angel only with less toughness and no flying. i dunno it doesn't seem that great. plus what would you drop for it?

[TekTik]

//NAME: Mean Girls (and Guys, apparently)

// Mana
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Tundra
3 Plateau
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
4 Lightning Angel
4 Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Cataclysm

// Equipment
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Pithing Needle**
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 2 Rule of Law*
SB: 2 Arcane Laboratory*
SB: 4 Glowrider
SB: 2 Armageddon

* Could be 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
**I tossed a couple Needles in the board because they can help you in myriad ways, and they always seem to be a nice option in case you need them. This could be Tormod's Crypt if you see a lot of Thresh and Iggy Pop in your meta, or whatever else, depending on what your weak matchups are.


OK I have one question, why the ONE flagstones? I mean isn't the point of them to have multiple ones so that they kill each other when they come into play? Unless you're thinking that they're wasteland-proof... in that case why not put more in or just take them out completely, because as far as I know you can't fetch for them. So tell me if I'm wrong, but I think they would be more useful especially in this deck when there are more of them. :smile:

[Jankwolf]

Flagsstones acts almost like a fetch...but not quite...
The card has great sinergy with cataclysm because the player would be able to have two lands insted of one...And second The list already shows one basic plains and im doubting a need for a second.
On top of it all though flagstones allows you to fetch any plains card...Which makes it soooo damn good...If more than one was ran it would take up valuable mana slots.

[Maverick676]

I have been trying out a slightly different version of this deck. It takes a more permission based route, and includes more of a draw engine.

The List:

2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Lightning Angel
2 Exalted Angel

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
3 Wingshards
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
2 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
1 Serum Visions
2 Fact or Fiction

SB-----------------
4 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
2 Armageddon
3 Absolute Law

With this build I am really trying to exploit the flagstones. They are another shuffle effect for brainstorm, the help against wasteland targeting your white sources and the also have great synergy with armaggedon (post board against combo and control.

While misdirection may seem like an odd choice to maindeck, I feel it warrants it's two slots. My meta sees a good amount of mono black disruption playing hymn to tourach, In which case you politely inform them as to where they can stick that him once you misdirect it. Also it is nice to make them use their removal on their own creatures (My favorite being misdirecting an incenerate onto someone's troll acsetic). Lastly it acts as another "free" counter in a counter war, I like it better than daze generally against other aggro control and control decks.

Wingshards is a recent addition to the deck in order to shift my white commitment to higher levels (to support flagstones). So far I have really liked it against goblins, as goblins decks tend to play a creature or ten before they swing.

Lastly absolute law is an absolutely awesome sideboard card against goblins, UGR thresh, burn decks, and control with red based removal. It turns serra avenger into silver knight on steroids, exalted angel into some divine inflicter of pain and match losses, and turns meddling mage into gallina's knight's weilding a ban hammer.

While this build is quite a bit different then the original post, It follows the same type of idea and I thought it would be helpful to share my play testing insights as well.

[Jankwolf]

I have been trying out a slightly different version of this deck. It takes a more permission based route, and includes more of a draw engine.

The List:

2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
3 Lightning Angel
2 Exalted Angel

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
3 Wingshards
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
2 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
1 Serum Visions
2 Fact or Fiction

SB-----------------
4 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
2 Armageddon
3 Absolute Law

With this build I am really trying to exploit the flagstones. They are another shuffle effect for brainstorm, the help against wasteland targeting your white sources and the also have great synergy with armaggedon (post board against combo and control.

While misdirection may seem like an odd choice to maindeck, I feel it warrants it's two slots. My meta sees a good amount of mono black disruption playing hymn to tourach, In which case you politely inform them as to where they can stick that him once you misdirect it. Also it is nice to make them use their removal on their own creatures (My favorite being misdirecting an incenerate onto someone's troll acsetic). Lastly it acts as another "free" counter in a counter war, I like it better than daze generally against other aggro control and control decks.

Wingshards is a recent addition to the deck in order to shift my white commitment to higher levels (to support flagstones). So far I have really liked it against goblins, as goblins decks tend to play a creature or ten before they swing.

Lastly absolute law is an absolutely awesome sideboard card against goblins, UGR thresh, burn decks, and control with red based removal. It turns serra avenger into silver knight on steroids, exalted angel into some divine inflicter of pain and match losses, and turns meddling mage into gallina's knight's weilding a ban hammer.

While this build is quite a bit different then the original post, It follows the same type of idea and I thought it would be helpful to share my play testing insights as well.

First of all there are many problems with this post...Troll is untargetable...Therefore you cannot misdirect or "change the target" to the troll...
And sure IF flagstaones wasnt legendary it would have great synergy with armagedon...But it is so you can only have one in play at anyone time.
And in a counter war the two for one trades with free counters arent so hot after a while...its card disatvatage...
Now....Absolute Law is a great choice....I like this idea...Helps with the good ol' gobbos matchup.

[outsideangel]

First of all there are many problems with this post...Troll is untargetable...Therefore you cannot misdirect or "change the target" to the troll...
And sure IF flagstaones wasnt legendary it would have great synergy with armagedon...But it is so you can only have one in play at anyone time.
And in a counter war the two for one trades with free counters arent so hot after a while...its card disatvatage...
Now....Absolute Law is a great choice....I like this idea...Helps with the good ol' gobbos matchup.

Troll is untargetable only by effects your opponent's control. Hence equipping a Troll with Jitte, etc.

[sammiel]

except you control the misdirection, and *you* are the one who has to choose the troll.

[Maverick676]

Well first of all, your using your opponent's spell to target the troll so it is perfectly legal. The misdirection is targeting the incenerate.

EDIT: Here's a reminder from the gather database under notes to confirm this

Once the spell resolves, the new target is considered to be targeted by the deflected spell. This will trigger any effects which trigger on being targeted.

However this is a very small part of my post and is not worth argueing about.

Secondly, flagstones legendary status is part of it's appeal since it can be used to fix mana, shuffle your library, and thin land from the deck.

Lastly Jankwolf, remember who your talking to next time and also that ... does not equal a comma or a period.

Now some actual discussion would be nice as opposed to nitpicking various rules questions.

[Jankwolf]

Well first off, if someone from the source could confirm what you say about misdirecting the incinerate to a troll...
Second I agree partly about the Flagstones but its sinergy with armageddon...it nets you one land...The other apeal of the land is good yes...I do agree with the statement.

And ... Is called and ellipses...And we are not on the source to discuss grammar,
and I do appreciate your attempt to flame me...and it doesnt work...
Try not to get worked up anymore.

[Mirrislegend]

I'm worried by this deck's tailspin towards U/r/w Counter-Angels. It's been done. And, like much of Legacy, is a well beaten horse. I think we should go back to Zilla's list. It is amazingly well thought out. Every detail is hit, and it appears incredibly resilient and versatile. That's the kind of design we need to evolve Legacy past its stagnation. So mad propz Godzilla.

Anyways, so given that, I'm going to focus on Mean Girls and Guys, henceforth referred to as Mean People. The one big big thing that jumps out at me about Mean People is that Goblins seems very difficult. You cataclysm, they save a vial, a lackey, and a port, drop a land next turn, lock you down, and head towards rebuilding with typical gobbos speed.

I am, in general, a huge advocate of MD Pyroclasms, and I want to suggest it here to cover the aforementioned Goblins weakness. However, the usefulness of Meddling Mage (dies to 'clasm) and of the cards that would be sacrificed to make room (even just 1 Cataclysm and 1 Magma Jet) in all matchups convinces me otherwise. Any thoughts? I think this is probably best solved by testing. I would volunteer, as I like this concept, but my trip to Spain begins in 5 hours, lasts 2 weeks, and I'm left with only 2 weeks of break after I come home. So I guess I can work on it when I get back to school and start slacking again. But until then, anyone with the time to take variations of Zilla's version for a spin would be my hero :laugh:

[Maverick676]

Well first off, if someone from the source could confirm what you say about misdirecting the incinerate to a troll...
Second I agree partly about the Flagstones but its sinergy with armageddon...it nets you one land...The other apeal of the land is good yes...I do agree with the statement.

And ... Is called and ellipses...And we are not on the source to discuss grammar,
and I do appreciate your attempt to flame me...and it doesnt work...
Try not to get worked up anymore.

Well first off learn the goddam rules.

Second, I am glad you know the name for ... ,now just learn to use them correctly and you will be all set.

[Jankwolf]

@mav.
Honestly, I was just stateing that I was unclear about being able to misd. a incinerate to a troll...Seriously if you read misd., which I know you have, it does say chose a new target. Logic does state that you would be "targeting" the troll and I am simply confused on how that all works out.

Second Misdirection is a good card, but wouldn't it be too much for the maindeck? You already have four 2 for 1 counters. Keeping Misdirection in the mainboard seems like you would be pitching cards that would be better played.
If anything with the limited draw it would seem to be a disadvatage. The blue sources you have are ether counters, draw spells or creatures. Now with Force of Will you are already removing resources from the game. Now, in a counter war for example, say you use both Force of Will and Misdirection. You would have could have pitched a creature(which is ok in my opinion) another counter or a draw spell. And on top of that I'm doubting that you'll have that many blue sources in hand later on in the game. What I am suggesting is that
Misdirection should be used as a sideboard card in this sort of aggro-control deck. Its place would be much better suited with more counters or more draw.
Second, why Misdirect a spell that mage can handle on its own?


Btw, swearing at me is not needed. Makeing fun of my grammar is not needed
especially when I question something you are saying. I have never recieved an infraction for my ellipses. If it doesn't bother the moderators, it shouldn't bother you. Now quit trying to get a rise out of me, this is only a discussion
Mav.

[Maverick676]

Second Misdirection is a good card, but wouldn't it be too much for the maindeck? You already have four 2 for 1 counters. Keeping Misdirection in the mainboard seems like you would be pitching cards that would be better played.
If anything with the limited draw it would seem to be a disadvatage. The blue sources you have are ether counters, draw spells or creatures. Now with Force of Will you are already removing resources from the game. Now, in a counter war for example, say you use both Force of Will and Misdirection. You would have could have pitched a creature(which is ok in my opinion) another counter or a draw spell. And on top of that I'm doubting that you'll have that many blue sources in hand later on in the game. What I am suggesting is that
Misdirection should be used as a sideboard card in this sort of aggro-control deck. Its place would be much better suited with more counters or more draw.
Second, why Misdirect a spell that mage can handle on its own?


While having six 2 for 1 counters may seem like too much card disadvantage for the deck to handle on paper, in pratice it is not. You usually try to pitch force to misdirection or misdirection to force when you can, choosing whichever spell accomplishes your goal. For example, when you need to counter a creature or critical spell that cannot be misdirected you use force (obviously), but say an opponent hymns you, or aims a swords at a critical creature i.e. exalted angel or jotun grunt (against thresh) then you would use your misdirections.

I originally had daze in the misdirection slot, but after further testing I found that misdirection generally functioned the same as misdirection in a counter war ,plus misdirection can usually counter removal aimed at your guys where as daze cannot. Daze is better for gaining tempo, but this is a control deck more than anything else so gaining quick tempo isn't as important in a faster deck, like thresh for example.