[Article] What Next for Legacy? Cheating the Rules of Mana

[Volt]

I don't think this has already been posted. Nicely written article by Finn, whether you agree with it or not.

the article (http://mtgsalvation.com/article/490/cheating-the-rules-of-mana)

[TeenieBopper]

Competent players lead out with Vial over Lackey against an unknown deck? Wait, what? When did that shit start?

[Volt]

Competent players lead out with Vial over Lackey against an unknown deck? Wait, what? When did that shit start?

Yeah, I'm not so sure that's true.

[Anusien]

Aether Vial is objectively stronger and if it resolves you're in a better position, but there are matchups where you want Goblin Lackey to come down first.
Plus turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 Vial is much weaker if your opponent has removal but no counters.


Anyway, I guess the article was alright, but I don't agree with your conclusions. You do a good job analyzing the effects of Aether Vial, but you somehow make the unintuitive leap from "Aether Vial stops land destruction" to "Aether Vial is broken".

[Kadaj]

I agree in the abstract that Aether Vial is a very powerful card that damages control's chances against Goblins. However, I will maintain that Goblins is not the reason why control is supposedly dead in this format. Solidarity is. Traditional blue based control has no game at all against Solidarity whatsoever. None. Zip. Nadda. And that is why there hasn't been significant success with it. NOT because Aether Vial turns off countermagic.

[AnwarA101]

I agree in the abstract that Aether Vial is a very powerful card that damages control's chances against Goblins. However, I will maintain that Goblins is not the reason why control is supposedly dead in this format. Solidarity is. Traditional blue based control has no game at all against Solidarity whatsoever. None. Zip. Nadda. And that is why there hasn't been significant success with it. NOT because Aether Vial turns off countermagic.

Blue-based control is probably poor against Goblins and Threshold. Blue-based control traditionally was a way to beat combo, but it can't do that anymore because the Storm mechanic allows Solidarity to always beat it. Blue-based control was never particularly good at beating aggro and aggro-control decks were initially built to beat Blue-based control because they had counters as well, but they were able to use tempo to beat those Blue-based strategies (ex. Fish vs. Psychatog). So its unlikely that Threshold would be bad against Blue-based control. Blue-based control basically has no reason for its existence. It was suppose to beat combo and it doesn't. It never had much game against aggro or aggro-control.

[Kadaj]

Actually, my current build of MUC (first post in the MUC thread) goes 50/50 with Threshold preboard and potentially better postboard, so that matchups not at all an autoloss. Goblins is tough game 1 but gets better after board. Still, the fact that MUC cannot beat Solidarity (it does still have 60/40 or better matches against almost all other combo) more or less rules it out of major tournaments in my eyes. You can't afford to be a bye for potentially the best deck in the format and hope to do well.

[Eldariel]

Actually, my current build of MUC (first post in the MUC thread) goes 50/50 with Threshold preboard and potentially better postboard, so that matchups not at all an autoloss. Goblins is tough game 1 but gets better after board. Still, the fact that MUC cannot beat Solidarity (it does still have 60/40 or better matches against almost all other combo) more or less rules it out of major tournaments in my eyes. You can't afford to be a bye for potentially the best deck in the format and hope to do well.

That kinda changed with the print of Counterbalance though. It gives a control-deck the way to truly just lock the combo-player out of the game. The problem, of course, is fitting it in and not losing to Goblins while at it.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The article does a decent job of explaining why Aether Vial is a good card in Goblins (I'll be pointing it out to David Gearhart), but, as Anusien said, it doesn't satisfactorily explain why the card needs to be banned.

Aether Vial is not solely responsible for killing control in Legacy. The reason pure control decks do poorly is because they cannot effectively counter every proactive strategy. The format is too diverse for a deck to pack an answer for every threat from every deck.

This is not a problem. The fact that Jack Elgin decks are not winning tournaments doesn't bother me in the slightest, because this is a perfect emulation of the evolution of other Magic formats. Decks with hybrid strategies have repeatedly shown themselves stronger than more strategically "pure" control decks. From Standard Solar Flare to Extended Psychatog and Vintage Gifts decks, it's fairly questionable whether the old Weissman school of thought holds much value anymore.

Even Shaheen Soorani plays Angels and Decrees. Because, you know, you have to win the game. "Not losing" isn't what it used to be, and banning Aether Vial won't change that.

[Anusien]

I do however give you that Aether Vial obviates prison and resource denial strategies (this was my original argument in the next B/R cycle after Flame Vault Stasis Stax), so it's questionable if in a world without Aether Vial some sort of blue-based control with Counterbalance would be a competitor.

[Finn]

Hey all. Good to see the topic is under discussion. You all know my postition on why we need to talk about this.


Anyway, I guess the article was alright, but I don't agree with your conclusions. You do a good job analyzing the effects of Aether Vial, but you somehow make the unintuitive leap from "Aether Vial stops land destruction" to "Aether Vial is broken".

Actually this situation is what prompted me to write the opinion in the first place. I have been busy attempting to build control and control-aggro in this format from a lot of different directions for a while now. After trying a dozen or so strategies from aggro with disruption all the way through pure control with a single win condition, I kept having to account for that damned card. It didn't matter if I was working mana disruption or forcing discards or countering spells or whatever. Vial made me have to work harder at it. After a constant dance of losing to it, altering the deck to beat it, and then losing to something else because of that change, I began to really consider what was going on.

Nothing about Aether Vial is intuitive. If it was, I would not have had to write the article. We would all understand its effects up front.

[Complete_Jank]

Maybe they could fix Vial by making it either add or remove a counter during your upkeep.

Just kidding that would make it too strong.


I have played decks with Vial, and it was the one card that made the deck playable in this format. If not for Vial then some decks would become not as strong and thus narrowing the field of decks.

I have also played decks that hated to see the vial on the other side of the table. It made winning the game much more difficult, and I wish that the card hadn't been printed. I still usually won the majority of the games, but had there been no vial, it would not have been a fair match.

Control already gets free counter spells, so I think Vial is perfectly acceptable. I don't think we should have people playing monoblue control like it use to be 11 years ago.

With out Vial this format will be even more narrow. No one deck should be able to beat every deck.

[etrigan]

This would all be solved if they unbanned Oath of Druids.

But that's probably better left for another thread.

[Iranon]

I do not think it is a single card that creates the problem; Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey in combination is the problem.
Modern Goblins is a horrendously bad deck if it has to actually cast its creatures (it would be a seriously defense-impaired midgame deck...); 8 cards to circumvent mana costs is enough to give it consistency. Whether Lackey's sheer brokenness or Vial's flexibility/greater resilency contributes more is largely academic; it's not relying on a single 4-of that makes the whole thing work.

Goblins refusing to live and die by the curve coupled with its ability to recover from mass destruction certainly makes things hard for control but I wouldn't go so far to say that Goblin is the only Aggro deck worth playing. Depending on the build, Affinity can be both faster and more consistent (at least if nobody bothers hating on it...) and Zoo variants have their own advantages... no the least being their good match-up against Goblins.


For the control situation...I think all the necessary tools for a viable (and possibly format-breaking) control deck are out there, it has just not been built yet. The emphasis on consistency with 4-of-everything just doesn't give you enough flexibility against a diverse field without heavy countermagic... and relying on that is not advisable against Goblins or Solidarity.
I almost expect some Keeper player to break Legacy making use of the recent additions to a backbreaking artifact/enchantment toolbox.