Legacy Weapon :: Lock Down.

[C-Aleric]

I'm happy to see that Cait-Sith is so pleased with the concept of lock down. It turns out, that it is also the style of game the Waterloo development team promotes. We have made one deck which will be released post columbus, and this one is for the public to laugh at for now. I was bored at work one afternoon, and decided that Cloudpost/Vesuva needed to be attempted. So, with some MWS help, and the trustworthy advice from Phya, we put together a list, and did some testing. Wouldn't you know, that it locks down. Fast. Efficiently. We are proud to unveil:

Name: Legacy Weapon*
Creator(s): C-Aleric/Phya

Lands:
4x Cloudpost
4x Vesuva
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Savannah
3x Windswept Heath
2x Forest
1x Plains

Spells:
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Crop Rotation
4x Null Rod
3x Mycosynth Lattice
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pithing Needle
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Defence Grid
2x Sylvan Scrying

Creatures:
2x Mycosynth golem
2x Platinum Angel

Side Board:
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Pithing Needle
1x Chalice of the Void
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Defense Grid
2x Sacred Ground
3x Seal of Cleansing
3x Root Maze



Card Choices:

Main Deck:

Cloudpost/Vesuva: Okay. No mana on turn 1. 2 on turn 2. 6 on turn 3, and 9 on turn 4. If you decide not to excel right of the bat, turns out you can rotate for one to get back on pace.

Ancient Tomb: 2 mana on turn one is devestating with some of the cards in this main deck. So Ancient tomb fits the bill. And if you have a bunch you can still jam Lattice out on turn 3, which isn't always so bad.

Savannah: Colored Mana. Excellent.

Windswept Heath: See above.

Forest: Just incase you don't have Pithing needle (or you see Back to Basics).

Plains: See above.

Enlightened Tutor: So, you may notice that aside from Crop Rotation/Sylvan Scrying/Swords to Plowshares/Lands, you can get any card you want. Ghostly Prison? Defense Grid? Chalice of the Void? Null Rod? Mycosy... etc...

Crop Rotation: I believe this card needs more action. It dodges a Wasteland, and every other land destruction spell aside from Armageddon. It finds Cloudpost when you don't have one for Vesuva to copy. It finds Ancient Tomb for the turn 1 "I hate control/combo card." All around MVP in the first 3 turns.

Null Rod + Mycosynth Lattice: Now this is where the fun begins. If you read these cards, you'll notice that they provide the tightest lock imaginable. No lands will ever tap for mana again. If Prison is on the board, no creatures will ever attack you again. And then you start drawing your deck. The game, is locked down.

Ghostly Prison: This card is the saving grace against fast beats of any kind. It comes out turn 2 a lot of the time, and turn 3 at the latest if it's in your opening hand (or you needed to tutor for it). 2 mana for things to attack you. Combined with Null Rod and Lattice, that's game over.

Swords to Plowshares: We are running white, and we had 3 slots to fill. Conveniently, we needed a way to deal with Meddling Mage on a lock piece. Turns out Swords to Plowshares is good at killing creatures.

Pithing Needle: Wasteland. Rishidan Port.

Sphere of Resistance: I hate Counterspell, and I hate Reset/High Tide. Done and done. Also gets around alternate casting costed cards, like Daze/Fireblast.

Defence Grid: I hate Solidarity, and I hate Counterspells.

Chalice of the Void: This is a, I prevent you from casting the things that will hurt me. It's not an auto on 1, as is the case in a lot of decks. It goes on anything from 0-4 pretty randomly. I suppose it depends on what you're afraid of.

Sylvan Scrying: As much as I'd rather run something else here, it just makes the deck more consistant. It gives you a Cloudpost if you're in a pinch, therefore making it a 2 of.

Mycosynth Golem: This fat ass has affinity for artifacts, and late in the game that's the only way to get something into play. Conveniently all my lands are artifacts, so eventually he'll get into play. He also gives my other creatures affinity, which is really the big reason he's here.

Platinum Angel: I haven't even considered this card as being playable for a good 2 years. There was just never a good place for her. This deck, has a fantastic reason to run her. Your opponent can't win the game, and she flies, and doesn't end up costing you mana. By the way. If she's out, I can't deck myself. Neat :)


Side Board:

1x Swords to Plowshares,
1x Pithing Needle,
1x Chalice of the Void,
2x Sphere of Resistance,
2x Defence Grid: Against some decks, one of these comes out in the main, then you just put the other ones in its place. Works pretty well.

2x Sacred Ground: Well, Pikula/Goblins. Just incase.

3x Seal of Cleansing: I can tutor for this card. Wow.

3x Root Maze: I wish this could fit into the main deck, because it's just hilarious tech. Cloudpost and Vesuva come into play tapped, why shouldn't my opponents lands? That's what I thought.


Testing:

Goblins: This was the first thing I ever played the deck against (before there were Swords in it). I went 5-2. Ghostly Prison, is almost a must disenchant for Goblins. Which means that Null Rod and Mycosynth Lattice are safe. Which, is pretty good for you. Swords will nail Warchief, just to give you that last turn to drop lattice and laugh. Null Rod takes care of Vial, so Pithing needle can always drop on Wasteland. And aside from that, Defense Grids are sided out for a Sword, a Chalice, and a Needle. A good trade. Since Chalice can hit 3, you can basically laugh at them.

In the 5th or 6th game, I mulliganed to 5, and he stayed at 7. I was on the play. On turn 4, he dust bowls one of my lands, and again on turns 5-7. I lost 4 lands. Turns out, I locked him out of the game on turn 8. Heh. Who saw that coming?[Phya's edit: I sure as hell didn't] Turns out my first turn was a Null Rod, and my second turn was a Ghostly Prison. And then I just prayed that Lattice would show up. Well, it did. As well as a couple Crop Rotations and a Sylvan Scrying. Yay consistancy.

Update: So today, I went 4-2 vs. Goblins. Honestly, this matchup is pretty damn funny. It really sucks for goblins, when Prison hits. And Swords connects. The only way Goblins really ends up winning, is with crafty plays all involving Goblin Sharpshooter. SGC takes a little priority early, but Sharpshooter causes some really gay direct dmg sometimes. So really, I won both matches. In the end, it's not such a big deal. Record 9-4

Solidarity: Now if you look at my main deck, you'll see that there are 6 cards that annahilate this matchup. 3x Chalice of the Void, and 3x Defense Grid. So. You play one of these on turn 1. And then you lock them out before they get to deal with them. And if they do you just play them all again the turn after, because you can make 17 mana. I went 5-1 in testing. Once you board out 2x Swords/Ghostly Prison, you can bring in 3x Root Maze and another 1x Chalice, 1x Defense Grid, and 1x Pithing Needle. You become: anti-Solidarity. It's wonderful to watch. Oh, Turn 1: Ancient Tomb, tap, play two Pithing Needles calling Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta. Hahahahahahahaha.

Update: We tested 4 more games against Solidarity. Legacy Weapon went 4-0. Detailed
game descriptions are on page 5 of this thread. New record: 9-1

Affinity: So Phya refused to continue. Null Rod + Ghostly Prison by itself is pretty much a hard lock since it stops all their lands and against a build without Glimmervoids it actually is game over. Aside from double Berserk on turn 3 you don't really have to anything to worry about. Record: 7-1

Threshold: We played 12 games this evening. The matchup is slightly in my favor pre-board. This is because they have a chance to put Naturalize on a Scepter in games 2-3, and that's just a pain in the ass to deal with. Though, considering how things are going so far, it's still pretty good. Record: 6-6

B/W Suicide: This deck, is a monster against this one. If Solidarity beats MUC every time, B/W Suicide beats this one in exactly same fashion. Sinkhole? Sure. Negator? Sure. Shade? Sure. Holy crap Ghostly Prison only gives me a 3 turn clock. Oh crap, I need 50 Swords! Anyway. This matchup is just plain awful. It hurts to play it. I got him to scoop one game to a first turn Chalice for 1. I wonder what his hand was? (Dark Rit, Duress, Duress, Cabal Therapy, Swords to Plowshares, + Land) Record: 2-4

UWb Fish: Okay. This deck is my heart and soul. If someone asks me what deck should be winning Columbus? I'll reply with UWb Fish, every time. It is just sooo good, it's sickening sometimes. Well. Turns out UWb Fish has a pretty strong advisary in this match-up. They need to be countering Prison. They NEED to be countering Chalice for 1, and 2. If they do not counter Chalice for 1 or 2, the game swings towards L-W very very fast. Obviously. They both just butcher Fish. Especially on 2. Record: 4-3

Combo Elves?: So. We ran out of tier decks kicking around my floor. So, we decided to do a matchup that should be able to race LW. Combo Elves, undisrupted, goes off turn 3 the majority of the time. But it is rather fragile. Legacy Weapon expoits this, rather well. Chalice set to 1 early in the match is border line scoop for Elves. Priest gets swords. That's really all there is to say. We played 2 games pre-board, and 2 more post board. LW can't lose. One interesting thing about game 2, was that a Llanowar played on turn 1, beat me down to 4 life. I chaliced for 1 and 2 very fast, with Rod on the table, and I had 16 or so turns to draw Lattice. Worked out well for me. Record: 4-0.


So to recap testing so far, we've had little trouble with Goblins. They just can't deal with Ghostly Prison early enough, and still prevent from an Angel/Null/Lattice lock. And Solidarity just has an incredibly awful time, trying to bash though all the hate we can apply to them. I mean, being able to safely side out Swords/G-Prison and bring in D-Grid/SoResist/Chalice/Root Maze is ridiculous. Root Maze keeps their fetches offline for 2 turns. This is useful in buying those extra turns, to lock up.

Update: All in all, the deck is still refusing to put up shitty numbers. The Black Sui matchup made me feel a lot better about testing. At least there is a conbination that just pounds this list. No question. UWb Fish still pisses me off. I really didn't want to lock them out. But it turns out that if you can play Chalice for 1, and Platinum Angel, you just win. They'll deck. And you can't lose anymore. Swords is their only out. If they Mage Angel, you just Prison/Null/Lattice lock them, like the rest. But Chalice/Angel is probably the right strategy to go for against them in the first game, for sure.

Overall: 41-19


*Alright, since I doubt anyone knows the reasons behind the name I'll explain it here. The most obvious is the pun off the name of the format. The second most obvious is the reference to the card from Apocalypse, which works in two ways. The first being the 5-color requirement which is as close as we could get to "off-color", as well as its rather amusing interaction (although wholly useless in this deck) with Mycosnyth Lattice. The final joke, which I doubt many people caught, is the reference to Final Fantasy's "X Weapons" which works well flavor-wise and because the last thing we did before writing up the list was to read a thread by Cait_Sith.

[kicks_422]

After you get the lock... Then what? Attack with a 4/5 or a flying 4/4?

I think it lacks a good win condition... Too bad Black Vise isn't avaliable... How about Ebony Owl Netsuke? :tongue:

I like the lock though... I also love the fact that the pieces are both colorless, so this could practigally go into any color...

[Ch33bs]

Mizzium + Time Vault win condition? This might be able to do it. I'll try it later.

[Complete_Jank]

I see the title, but still no Legacy Weapon? WTH?

[C.P.]

I see the title, but still no Legacy Weapon? WTH?

The last time I checked, solidarity did not run solidarity, did it?:smile:

Well, about the deck, it looks very interesting for sure. Looks fine on the paper, and has answers for everything. However, I don't like sylvan scrying and bottled cloister. How about sylvan library, if you want consistancy?

And it also looks like that a burn deck will be a huge problem for this deck. It ignores gostly prison, and also has a certain 2 mana instant that punishes you for having a nonbasic land. Maybe an white enchantment that hoses red in general(e.g. warmth) in sideboard insted of the cloister? with all that enlightend tutors, I don't think discard will be much of a problem.

The list, also looks like that you will have some colour issue. Mox diamond, maybe?

[kicks_422]

How about using a Stax-like manabase? Crystal Vein + Ancient Tomb + City of Traitor + Mox Diamond to replace Vesuva + Cloudpost + Sylvan Scrying + Crop Rotation would allow you to get of green completely for another color to go with white.

What color though? That's what I'm thinking of now. Pendrell Mists looks hot in combination with Ghostly Prison. Root Maze in the Sb could easily become Orb of Dreams/Kismet. Trinisphere looks like a good addition too, taking it more into a Stax-type build.

[C-Aleric]

The stax mana base wouldn't generate the amount of mana I need by turn 4, unless evey land provided 2 mana, which they don't. The mana base isn't really too bad most of the time. The reason Mox Diamond was frowned upon, is from all the Null Rods. Plus, once Lattice is in play, all colors of mana are produced by all lands. So you can get a good colorless base, and then drop Lattice so you can tutor for Null Rod.

I agree that Sylvan Scrying isn't a very good card. But it serves a very important role in the deck. I don't think that library would make it more consistant than this. If it's not in the top three, you're in trouble, and sylvan scrying just gets the land you need. You generally aren't short on slowing components, due to their abundancy in this deck. I can see how Trinisphere could be good, but multiples of 2 are where the money is at with this mana base. If there was a way to get 3 mana on turn 1, then Trinisphere would be a lot better, but since you can't, then Chalice/Def-Grid/Pithing Needles are your optimal turn one drops. Ancient tomb give two right off the bat. Cloudpost gives two on turn 2. I agree that a good burn deck would be a problem as well. Fireblast will be an issue. We were considering this earlier. I can see how Cloister is not needed. That could definitely be changed for something to deal with red (like warmpth, as you said).

And, you also don't have to win by beating them. Once Lattice, Rod, and Angel are in play, you can't lose. And your opponent can't win. Because you can't deck yourself for the loss. No lands will ever become useful again. Short of someone running Spirit Guides and Naturalize, you've secured a tight lock which will eventually win. The plan, is to simply drop Golem once you've got 11 permanents in play, then play Platinum Angel. And you can swing at them, or you can just sit there. But yes. The game is over at that point, for sure.

And Orb of Dreams and Kismet provides a hard lock as well, with Stasis. But, this deck does a totally different lock, but is equally effective. That deck needs Orb/Stasis/Kismet, and this one needs Ghostly Prison/Null Rod/Mycosynth Lattice. They are equally tight. Except mine isn't bastardized by Quirion Ranger.

This win condition is perfect for this deck, as well. Once you've put Lattice and Rod down, you've secured all mana from ever being used again. And with Prison, they obviously won't be able to pay to attack you.

And I apologize for not calling the deck something more like "Null Lattice", which would have been alright, but "Legacy Weapon is just better", says Phya (hopefully he'll have an account here soon so I don't have to field all the questions :cool: ).

[C.P.]

The stax mana base wouldn't generate the amount of mana I need by turn 4, unless evey land provided 2 mana, which they don't. The mana base isn't really too bad most of the time. The reason Mox Diamond was frowned upon, is from all the Null Rods. Plus, once Lattice is in play, all colors of mana are produced by all lands. So you can get a good colorless base, and then drop Lattice so you can tutor for Null Rod.

I agree that Sylvan Scrying isn't a very good card. But it serves a very important role in the deck. I don't think that library would make it more consistant than this. If it's not in the top three, you're in trouble, and sylvan scrying just gets the land you need. You generally aren't short on slowing components, due to their abundancy in this deck. I can see how Trinisphere could be good, but multiples of 2 are where the money is at with this mana base. If there was a way to get 3 mana on turn 1, then Trinisphere would be a lot better, but since you can't, then Chalice/Def-Grid/Pithing Needles are your optimal turn one drops. Ancient tomb give two right off the bat. Cloudpost gives two on turn 2. I agree that a good burn deck would be a problem as well. Fireblast will be an issue. We were considering this earlier. I can see how Cloister is not needed. That could definitely be changed for something to deal with red (like warmpth, as you said).

And, you also don't have to win by beating them. Once Lattice, Rod, and Angel are in play, you can't lose. And your opponent can't win. Because you can't deck yourself for the loss. No lands will ever become useful again. Short of someone running Spirit Guides and Naturalize, you've secured a tight lock which will eventually win. The plan, is to simply drop Golem once you've got 11 permanents in play, then play Platinum Angel. And you can swing at them, or you can just sit there. But yes. The game is over at that point, for sure.

And Orb of Dreams and Kismet provides a hard lock as well, with Stasis. But, this deck does a totally different lock, but is equally effective. That deck needs Orb/Stasis/Kismet, and this one needs Ghostly Prison/Null Rod/Mycosynth Lattice. They are equally tight. Except mine isn't bastardized by Quirion Ranger.

This win condition is perfect for this deck, as well. Once you've put Lattice and Rod down, you've secured all mana from ever being used again. And with Prison, they obviously won't be able to pay to attack you.

And I apologize for not calling the deck something more like "Null Lattice", which would have been alright, but "Legacy Weapon is just better", says Phya (hopefully he'll have an account here soon so I don't have to field all the questions :cool: ).

I agree with Phya on the name. Legacy weapon is the perfect misleading name that follows the footsteps of solidarity and rabid wormbat.:smile:

Anyway, About the sylvan library, remember that you're running 12 shuffle effects. You'll likely to see a new set of 3 cards every turn, and you can take more than one if needed. sylvan libary is not a tutor, but you run 8 tutors as it is now, anyway.

[Windux]

I think Chalice isn't great in here:
Chalice 1 = No Enlightened, Crops, Needles, Swords
Chalcie 2 = No Null Rod Lock.

I Would play Mox Diamonds and Trinispheres, because they are much better.
Eventually we cn think about Sphere of Ressistance.

4x Cloudpost
4x Vesuva
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Savannah
3x Windswept Heath
1x Forest
1x Plains
4x Mox Diamond

Spells:
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Crop Rotation
4x Null Rod
4x Mycosynth Lattice
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Pithing Needle
2x Sphere of Ressistance
4x Trinisphere
3x Sylvan Library // Sensei Divining Top (would be better with Tangle Wire)


Creatures:
2x Mycosynth Golem
2x Platinum Angel

Side Board:
1x Swords to Plowshares
2x Pithing Needle
1x Chalice of the Void
3x Defense Grid
2x Seal of Cleansing
3x Sacred Ground
3x Root Maze

[C-Aleric]

The problem with that is, you're pitching a land to mox diamond, and playing a land on turn 1. So you've lost two from your hand. And, if you played a cloud post with your mox diamond, you NEED to be playing vesuva/cloudpost or a tomb on turn 2 to be dropping trinisphere. I agree that the diamond excelleration is good, but Null Rod shuts it off immediately. And you generally aren't going to be dropping the chalice before you tutor. If you need to tutor, your first land drop is generally a fetch/savannah. Then on turn two, after you've tutored, you drop chalice for 2. Otherwise, you can still drop Null Rod/Def Grid on turn 2. I know Trinishphere looks like it would be stellar in this deck, but the problem is that Mox Diamonds are shut off by Null Rod, and it's not very consistant to be putting Trinishpere out on turn 1, which is when you need it. Sphere of resistance is just better than Trinisphere in this deck, I think. Namely for Solidarity. Just because then they have you pay 4 to Cunning Wish, and 4 to Rebuild. This gives you until turn 5 to prepare for it. Basically, Trinishpere are Mox Diamond are "Better Cards", but in the shell built here, and with the idea of putting N-Rod in play very fast, I don't think it's the right choice. This isn't stax.

Chalice definitely holds its weight in this main deck. Though, I'd consider a swap for Root Maze, but nothing else. And just put 4 in the side board. Though, I don't think that's the right call. You can play Chalice intelligently, and still have it be a bomb in the main deck. There is no reason to play it, preventing yourself from tutoring. That's just silly.

I can see how Sylvan Library wouldn't be that bad now. But if I run that, I'm going to be sooooo tempted to run Uba Mask, which may not be an awful idea, but this deck isn't really designed to need a strong draw engine. I suppose it's worth trying out though at some point.

[Cait_Sith]

I have to run, PM me about your Lockdown team sometime. Off the top of my head, Hanna's Legacy? I know it gives both sides protection but you could probably use it more.

Unless I am mistaken Trinisphere + Nullrod + Mycosynth Lattice = no spells for anyone for the rest of the game. The goes for Sphere of Resistance (except for an ESG turning allowing for some sort of dump spell).

Null + Lattice = Lands cannot tap for mana. Add something that adds manacost to spells, Trinisphere and Resistance then they cannot pitch the spell anymore.

[C-Aleric]

Hanna's Custody, I think is what you mean, and yes, it does seem like a very interesting card, except Rebuild still rapes my board, and I can chalice for 1/2 if I'm worried about Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth/Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing.

And Ghostly Prison/Null/Lattice is a hard lock. They can't use pitch spells, because lattice turns all the cards in their hand colorless, so they can't pitch "blue spells" to Force, or "Red spells" To Kinesis. All they can really do is Fireblast. I think that Sphere of Resistance could replace Defense Grid main deck, though they are still beatable. Defence Grid on turn 1 just allows me to drop lock pieces on turns 2 and 3 and 4, basically without worry. Namely, get's around a turn 2 Force of Will, which would suck for me. It, also baits out that Force on Turn 1, because if they have it, it's a must counter.

I think Daze can still be casted using it's alternate casting cost, however, so I can see Sphere sneaking into the main deck, though I could be very wrong about this. Even though their islands are artifacts, I still think they are islands. I hope they can't, but I think they can.

[Mirrislegend]

So let me get this straight:
The only way for you to win is to topdeck or E-tutor for Mycosynth Golem, or just wring a concession out of your opponent?

[Grollub]

So let me get this straight:
The only way for you to win is to topdeck or E-tutor for Mycosynth Golem, or just wring a concession out of your opponent?

Who cares when you got all the time in the world?

How ever, what stops an opponent from just FoWing the golem? --Unless you got a Grid in play, and then it's suddenly a three card lock against combo, and four card against aggro-control.

Edit: Regarding FoW.
Oh. I missed that one. I'll give you that, that's pretty darn sly! :cool:
(Just read the your post above, apologies..)

[C-Aleric]

Actually, you can't topdeck E-tutor for the win. You have to draw Golem. And this will eventually happen. I mean, your opponent can't attack, or play spells. He can just draw his card, and pass. Then Golem gets played for free, because all your lands are artifacts, and then you drop Angel. Now you can't deck. And you have an Angel, which can't be killed short of Fireblast. But, they're Blasting my Angel, then Golem is getting Through, and if they're Double Blasting the Golem, odds are I'll draw another one. Also, they'll have to kill me, somehow, or all my creatures, which they can't do, unless they just double blast both Golems.

(sorry Grollub, I was writing this as you posted that. Thanks)

You've won, once they realize they can't do anything ever again. And once Angel hits the table, it's a confirmed "You can't beat me".

And Golem can't be FoW'ed, because all the cards in their hands are colorless, so they don't have a blue spell to pitch to Force. It's the most glorious trick in the world.

[Cait_Sith]

I double checked: Trinisphere is a total lock on all sides. If you get Sphere, Rod, Myco, and Prop/Prison in play at once then no one can do almost anything. I also like Trini because if they try to FoW it ramps up the cost like D Grid, but it also can slow down Gobs from playing spells (that give 1-2 turns bonus to lock them down or TDeck a Prison) as well as thresh (same basic idea).

[C-Aleric]

I agree, but Trinishphere still doesn't seem as optimal as Sphere of Resistance. Just because it costs 3. Two is the key number. You'll realize this once you test the deck, if you decide to. If it's a multiple of two, your chances of locking a turn faster are just strictly better.

But, I can see where Trinisphere has it's advantages. Though, Resistance may be just better for the game against solidarity, if it's only to make Cunning wish cost 4, along with Rebuild. Also, Resistance only doesn't make Lackey/Vial/Fanatic cost 3 mana. Aside from that. It makes Matrons/Watchiefs cost 4, which is massive. As well as Ringleaders without a Chief no the table cost 5. Which is still looking better than Trinisphere, since I won't be playing it turn 1 anyway, I could play resistance, and still stop turn 1 Lackey/Vial/Fanatic.

[Cait_Sith]

The 2 major differences between the two are:

Sphere of Resistance costs 2 and its malus is reduced by affinity

Trinisphere costs three and its malus is NOT reduced by affinity.

[C-Aleric]

What affinity is going to hurt me? I just put prison on the table. And they can't attack me anyway. There is no way they can sack things, because all their creatures are artifacts, and Null rod is down. They can't sack things at me either.

And it's not like all their creatures get Affinity either. I don't see how affinity is ever going to be a problem. Which seems to me that Resistance still has an edge over Trinisphere.

[Daze]

If you play Trinisphere, how do you want to win? Playing 61 cards? SoR seems to be much better because it does not take away your win condition. Btw, Daze still works, doesn't it?

[C-Aleric]

I'm pretty sure I covered the daze thing earlier. And that's true. Trinisphere locks me out from casting golem. Making it atrocious. So SoR is just a strictly better call. This concludes the Trinisphere talk, because it ruins my win condition, and my win condition is awesome. It doesn't need to hit the table before my lock. And that's incredible.

So yes. Daze works, I'm pretty sure. Though, odds are, a deck running Daze will be running draw, so odds are they'll deck first anyway. Though, I think I'm going to put Sphere of Resistance into the Def-Grid slot in the main, and drop Cloister from the side board, and put 2x D-Grid instead. Just seems like the right decision right now.

[Cait_Sith]

It costs extra in either case.

[C-Aleric]

The difference is, is that Trinsphere prevents me from paying the extra 3 mana. Where as Sphere can be taken into account with just putting a 12th permanent into play.

I apologize if this is wrong, but I don't think it is. I'm pretty sure Trinisphere prevents me from dropping the win condition.

[Cait_Sith]

I just changed the deck abit with -1 Angel +1 Ebony Owl and -3 Defense Grid +3 Sphere of Resistance. (I tested Trini and it is better, but makes the deck become ALOT harder to play. One mistake can spell game.)

This deck has a near bye on Affinity since their land are already artifacts for the most part.

I changed the WinCon and yes sphere accomodates Affinity.

[xsockmonkeyx]

The 2 major differences between the two are:

Sphere of Resistance costs 2 and its malus is reduced by affinity

Trinisphere costs three and its malus is NOT reduced by affinity.

WTF is a malus?:confused:

BTW, by buddy made a deck like this, Null Rod + Macrosynth. He used Thumbscrews as the finisher (cause he's a dick).

[C-Aleric]

I really don't like the Owl. There is no need. Once it's locked, who cares about how many turns it takes. If your opponent is being an ass, and taking 2 mins per turn, call a judge, and explain to them that there is nothing your opp can do. Ever.

Angel and Golem, is a fantastic way to show your opponent, that they lose the game. And Sphere takes care of Fireblast. Last time I checked, burn doesn't run ESG's. So I think we're safe.

[Mirrislegend]

So this deck is not designed for tournaments right? Given your comment about having all the time in the world to topdeck a 2-of, you realize you will consistently run out of time? And therefore, if you dont win G1, then youve lost that match? Doesnt sound like a good deal to me.

Furthermore, how do you play angel? When you've locked the board, your mana sources are screwed over also...

[Cait_Sith]

I am still ambivalent about Owl, but the Sphere > Grid.

[Cait_Sith]

So this deck is not designed for tournaments right? Given your comment about having all the time in the world to topdeck a 2-of, you realize you will consistently run out of time? And therefore, if you dont win G1, then youve lost that match? Doesnt sound like a good deal to me.

Furthermore, how do you play angel? When you've locked the board, your mana sources are screwed over also...

Affinity for artifacts says your wrong. You drop Myco golem and then use its affinity to drop angel.

Sorry about the double post.

[C-Aleric]

Thanks for reading what Mycosynth Golem gives Angel. Affinity. She is played for free. And there is no way that an opponent can take all the time they want. I'll call a judge every time, and complain that they are just wasting time, and that there is no way they can win. If they don't just say "draw, go", then they're going to get hassled.

(C-Sith beat me to it again. Damn)

[C.P.]

I agree on shpere of resistance as well. Sphere can come down on the first turn, hosing their entire game plan. Seeing how much mana you can genarate from the mana base, you paying 1 more matters less than your opponent paying 1 more. Trinishpere is harder to play around, seeing how the deck relyies on 1cc tutors.

[Cait_Sith]

Thanks for reading what Mycosynth Golem gives Angel. Affinity. She is played for free. And there is no way that an opponent can take all the time they want. I'll call a judge every time, and complain that they are just wasting time, and that there is no way they can win. If they don't just say "draw, go", then they're going to get hassled.

(C-Sith beat me to it again. Damn)

All your post are belong to us. And, at this rate, your deck too. Sphere does improve the deck, but playing around it makes Solidarity look easy.

[Phya]

Just coming in for a brief second here, but I think Viseling is the card you want over Ebony Owl.

[C-Aleric]

I updated the list:

-1 Mycosylth Lattice
-1 Defence Grid
+2 Sphere of Resistance

And the SB:
-3 Bottled Cloister
+1 Defence Grid
+2 Sphere of Resistance

[C.P.]

I updated the list:

-1 Mycosylth Lattice
-1 Defence Grid
+2 Sphere of Resistance

And the SB:
-3 Bottled Cloister
+1 Defence Grid
+2 Sphere of Resistance

Why play the grid when you can just abuse the sphere? Isn't multiple spheres just better than the grid?

[C-Aleric]

The thing is, is that Force is still active on turn 2 with a Sphere, where as Grid shuts it off completely until turn 3, or my turn 4, depending on who played first. Excluding Grid from the main, for that reason, I believe is a mistake. Have both options tutorable is key in game one.

Phya is also not convinced on dropping Grids completely, and I'm going to agree with him there, because counterspells are very detrimental to this decks success.

[Cait_Sith]

Yes :). I find Solidarity isn't too much of a problem that it demands putting a possibly dead card in the main. This will still, of course, depend on your meta.

[C-Aleric]

Defence Grid isn't completely dead either. It makes all instants (Disenchant/Bounce/L-Bolt) unless on my turn. Giving me one turn to set things back up before they have a full set of untapped mana against me. I agree it's dead in some cases, but I still think that winning game one against combo is very important for this deck. Games 2-3 shouldn't be too too hard at all, since this deck can sideboard hate like none other against almost any kind of deck. Without Grid main, the Solidarity matchup in game one, isn't very good. Their bounce suite is nasty.

Root Maze makes my so happy, by the way. It just, ugh. Sooo good with my mana engine. Ridiculous. Tutorable. Mmmmm.

[Cait_Sith]

Please stop drooling over root maze. I can see it here in Albany. Do you think the Maze should be main'd?

[C-Aleric]

I think it could be good, but I think the Main is full of necessary components as it stands now. So, no. I don't think it should be main deck. But, it is just an awesome SB card, that helps you out when you have dead cards to take out of the main.

[C.P.]

Perhaps Maze can replace the grid? It hoses blue quite a bit. the grid can go side after that, maybe.

[Cait_Sith]

What do you think of exchanging Sylvan Scrying for them?

[C.P.]

What do you think of exchanging Sylvan Scrying for them?

I still like the idea of having sylvan library instead of scrying, since the deck runs 12 shufflers. I'll make the deck very consistant, it almost has same effect as brainstorm + fetch every turn.

[Phya]

I haven't seen a reason to pull out Sylvan Scrying, although I agree that since we took out Nevi(ryiiannsxczesl's) disk it's the worst card in the deck. Scrying has the unique ability of being able to take a hand of Cloudpost + colored mana + Scrying + 4 other spells and change it from a mulligan to a turn 4 win. Maybe they'll get pulled out later but with a list as tight as this one you have to be very careful about taking cards out.

Maze does not replace Grid. Against blue, Maze is a poor-man's Sphere of Resistance until they miss a land drop when it actually becomes useless. The hands-down biggest threat to this deck is countermagic, and the only real option for that is the Grid. Let's compare:

Root Maze: On turn 3 the blue player 2 mana available, which means they can cast every counter spell in their deck.
Defense Grid: On turn 3 the only way a blue player can counter is by paying 3 and pitching FoW.

The bottom line is that I have yet to see a reason Root Maze should be main.

[Cait_Sith]

The Library allow you to manipulate your draws. I think it deserves testing over scrying. And it continues to run amuck after you locked down the board.

[Mirrislegend]

So Cranial Extraction, Rootwater Thief, or double Extract, all after Mycosynth Golem, means that you lose?

Basically, I cant stand the idea of a small and highly conditional win condition. You need to kill them before they see your entire deck and know EXACTLY what to do and board in g2 and g3.

[C.P.]

@Mirrislegend

Well, the thing about the deck is that it will not do anything itself after it achieves the lock. the golem is a solution for that. If this deck used other means of winning(e.g. ebony owl) then it has to get it into play before the lock is established. That means another piece that you have to search for and protect. Wow.

P.S. just how many extractions do you see in the format? This deck can race extraction, and the thief(assuming that you see one) will need 4 mana to activae if ghostly prison is there.


@phya

I see your point on the grid. Root maze might not be to crucial in the deck, after all. I kinda wanna see the mirror match...
While I admit that the scrying has its own merit, library is very solid in most cases. Scrying seems to be only good in finding lands.

[C-Aleric]

The thing is, is that's all Scrying is wanted for. If you have library, and you don't see Cloudpost, you've probably lost. Especially on critical turns 4/5. If you have scrying, you just go get it. Drop it, and now your mana taps for 3.

Library seems like it should be good, but I think that it will just end up showing the wrong cards sometimes, and then we're screwed. E-tutor gets locks, and Scrying gets the engine, along with Rotation. It's a good system so far.

[Cait_Sith]

Its official, Sylvan Library < Scrying. At least in my testing. I big complaint I have is vs aggro-control or straight up control this deck is about 1 turn too slow. Is there ANY way of making it faster?

[C.P.]

So the spell serves as post no. 14. I'll have to agree with the card for now.

[Bane of the Living]

First off guys, great job on a helluva design. It looks a bit janky on paper till you go over the details. I love the ability to drop Chalice at anything, Im sure thats what naysayers are ommiting. Sylvian Lib looks like the better choice over Scrying just because you can drop the lib then not worry so much about what CotV@2 will do to you.

[C-Aleric]

The only thing with the Lib, is that you can't rely on it getting what you want. Scrying is only there, because we wanted to be able to get the Cloudpost engine online. This being said, Enlightened Tutor is enough to get the lock pieces we need... Basically she is crazy good in this deck. We haven't really had trouble with Chalice on 2 and Scrying so far. We've done a fair amount of testing so far, simply because it manages to continously dominate numerous decks.


We did some Threshold testing, check it out in the opening post :)

[Cait_Sith]

I made my own version of and am calling it La Cl&#233;. Why? It uses a different lock that was in my original Le Cl&#233; but that didn't work out too well, probably because cl&#233; is feminine I just went 2-1 over Solidarity. That match will be up on BeatingyYour ead against a wall on MWS in a few minutes.

This big advantage of La Cl&#233; over Legacy Weapon is its lock is two cards. In return it has a poor matchup against Legacy Weapon and is slightly more mana intensive per turn as well as allowing for upkeep action and 1 drops.

Lands:

4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Savannah
3 Windsept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains

2 Triskelion
2 Memnarch

4 Mycosynth Lattice
4 Kill Switch
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Library
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Swords to Plowshares

SB:

1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
3 Defense Grid
3 Sacred Ground
3 Root Maze
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Seal of Cleansing

BTW: I am taking the name of Legacy Weapon as a tribute to me since I am the only person I know to declare the FF Weapons "cute and snuggly soft." People tend to look at me oddly while I imagine their horrible demise. (Omega Weapon... if he was real I'd date him)

[C-Aleric]

Well, I think that it is a very interesting idea, for sure. How does it do in the Goblin matchup though. It looks basically like this one, and you don't need Ghostly Prison. But what happens when your opponent drops Pithing needle? Memn/Kill Switch both get nailed. And that's awful. I mean, you can Chalice before, and all that, but it is a very popular card, and is in a lot of side boards. It's one more obstacle to overcome.

I also realize now that Krosan Grip on Kill Switch is going to hurt after you use it. They can respond to the activation, and just nail it. This isn't so ideal.

It still looks very interesting though. Same general idea.

[Cait_Sith]

They board in Pithing when I board in Cleansing :). Pretty much I just need to know my enemy. If nothing else, there is a rather blah combo of Memnarch and Mysynth Lattice. Most good gobs builds maindeck Artifact and enchantment hate so either way I am not too worried (just drop all my chalices and needles hehe)

[C-Aleric]

The thing with this, and Goblins Maindecking Artifact hate, is that their must counter is Ghostly Prison. They have to let Null Rod come down, all though it nails the game 1 vial. An other neat Sideboard tech against annoying lands, is to SB in Seal of Cleansing, and then rush a lattice into play on turn 3. And then you can use the seals (which are tutorable, like everything else) to destroy any permanent in play. Just incase there is anything giving you some trouble. That matchup wasn't really that hard for it. Though, over at SCG, they think this deck is crap. Damn non-testing piles of garbage.

[Cait_Sith]

I actually changed my sideboard to include 2 Null Rod so that G3 I can bring them in if I need to. Gobs runs counters?? Did you mean Thresh or Disenchants?

[C-Aleric]

Hahaha. Sorry.

Gobs needs to DISENCHANT Ghostly Prison, leaving your other artifacts alone. That's what I meant to say.

And that's a good idea. The Null Rod should not be overlooked.

[Cait_Sith]

I would recommend that you include Kill Switch in your SB. It makes alot faster lock and bringing Null Rod in confuses Needle. The variety also makes it so you ultimately need to stop this deck either 2 mages or to CotV (hehehehe). And that stops the lock. We still have Myco+ the kill.

[C-Aleric]

With Kill Switch, and Lattice, can't they still play lands, and use them? They don't come into play tapped. I'm guessing you're going to be playing Memnarch to steal their permanants, or something. But, what if they played two lands before you could take them, and Disenchanted something? Would this not work?

[Cait_Sith]

You keep tapping their lands during their upkeep. With Sphere of resistance they normally can only get 1 land down before it too becomes tapped. The lock is not as strong, but it contains fewer pieces, which is a big plus.

[C-Aleric]

I supopse so. There is also the problem with Artifact Mana execll then. Because then they get a land, and an untapped Mox perhaps to play an instant.

The lock is pretty sweet, I agree, but it is just a little less game ending than L-W. Also, Prison/Angel are only needed against Aggro. Hard casting Angel is no biggie at all in this deck, and if you drop the lock with her in play, you just win as well. Since you can't lose, and they can't win. They'll deck. GG.

Also, doesn't that mean that they can vial in creatures? As well as use the abilities of the creatures when they're untapped?

I.E: They get a vial in play. And SGC, and Sharp Shooter, and Perhaps Kiki, since they have some time. There is the possibility of that as well, which seems pretty crappy. I've seen that specific combo kill me in Gobs far more than once, and it seems they'll still be able to gay their way out of your lock, by doing just that. You'll then require getting Pithing Needle to stop it. And Null Rod is just better at that. The Goblin Matchup needs as little technicalities as possible. And I think this one will sneak through.

[Cait_Sith]

A good point, but maindeck Pithings only have 2 possible targets: Vial and SGC. I still keep the maindeck Ghostlies to stop random shenanigans... However, the only cards gobs runs that could hurt me after the lock is extablished is artifact hate and using Ringleader to deal two damage to me once. Assuming they get CONSTANT land topdecks they could use SGC once every other turn assuming I do not find any Pithing Needles.

BTW: Stax after SB is an awesome matchup. Sacred Ground is tech. (ALso CotV for 0 to stop morphs.)

Just in random: Would wouldn'y believe how many matches the 0 CotV has won me.

[C-Aleric]

I'm glad you're testing lots. That's very awesome for this style of deck. Maybe we'll get our own category of decks based around "Prison", or something. Phya and I were discussing this yesterday. A forgotten archetype when Stasis went to shit.

And SCG still puts you on a pretty fast clock then. 10 turns on draw go can just go to shit. I'm guessing they'll drop as many gobs as they can before you start tapping them down.

And thanks for the Sacred Ground comment. It is pretty damn good. Just how Cleansing becomes Vindicate with Lattice on the board. The deck works well with itself, for sure.

[Cait_Sith]

If you have an IM we should discuss this.

We run 3 Maindeck Pithing, I will be honest that SGC does not scare me when I have library in play.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Am I missing some kind of key factor?

Lattice turns all permanents into artifacts right?

And Null Rod stops them from working?

And Sphere and Trinisphere are to slow people down?

But how do you cast Golem with the Lock + Sphere/Trinisphere in play?

[Ewokslayer]

Affinity will get around Sphere of Resistance since
Total Cost = Mana Cost + Cost Increase (like Sphere) - Cost Reductions (Like Affinity)

However it won't work under Trinisphere.
If there is a Trinisphere on either side of the table when Null Rod + Lattice hit the table there will be a whole lot of nothing happening.

On a more deck related note, I am somewhat doubtful of the numbers against both goblins and Solidarity. the deck seems too slow to really bother either deck with the disruption they can bring (mana denial or counters). Though perhaps Apprentice just hates me because my test draws were awful.

[Cavius The Great]

Have you guys considered Wand of Denial and Gaea's Blessing? Seems like it would work under that type of lock.

[Cait_Sith]

@ Eowk: A big part of this deck is knowing what to do when: AKA: This deck does not forgive you. Just tell us which build you were testing and we can help.

What would Wand of Denial do for Null Rod lock? You can't use it once its down. And how does Wand affect Blessing at all?

[C-Aleric]

So, we did some more testing against the field we have here. The deck is still having a well over 50% win ratio. Dammit. Check it out on the front page.

Sui Black, is basically the Anti-Deck this was was waiting to find. It beats it, easily. One win was barely deserving. I would have won if he had played it out. I guess that's one thing about this deck that gives it a bit of an advantage over most decks. The instant disruption.

Please don't talk us down for numbers either. We're playing the decks very professionally, and this is just what's happening. I apologize.

[Cait_Sith]

I'll be honest that MWS can cause skewed numbers because some people... well check my MWS posts. And some just play total jank. I ran into an animate land deck that used image crafters and griffion canyon to do god knows what.

[Phya]

We aren't testing on MWS though, we're testing against each other. It's a giant plus that it just so happens that if we're using one card pool we can make any deck in the format.

[Cait_Sith]

That is also a huge minus. When you test against each other you can easily become used to the habits and notations of each other as well as being able to analyze their previous decklist. This gives you a big advantage that does not exist normally.

[Alfred]

I just don't understand how this deck can win in the face of Goblins' mana denial strategy, and quick clock. It just seems like it's an uphill battle assembling the 3 card combo required to keep Goblins from just comboing off and ruining your life.

[UrDraco]

I read the beggining of the responces and saw that you didn't really like sylvan scrying. What if you replaced it with living wish. Then it could not only tutor for awesome lands but creatures, like the mycosynth golem out of the board? I have been tinkering around with a Cloudpost+vesuva deck and I love prison decks so I applaude you on this creation.

[Phya]

@ Alfred - I know exactly what you mean, and I'll just you a sample game to help illustrate how this deck beats Goblins.

Today in playtesting I drew what I consider to be close to the best Goblins hand I could possibly draw: Mountain, Plateau, Vial, Lackey, Warchief, Matron, Driver. Here's how the game went:

Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey
LW Turn 1: Savannah
Turn 2: Draw Piledriver. Play Plateau, swing with lackey, drop warchief and 2x Piledrivers. LW tutors for Ghostly Prison
LW Turn 2: Ancient Tomb, Ghostly Prison

At this point I could still attack for 1 a turn (because hitting with Lackey > one extra damage) but on turn 5 or 6 he locked me out. Another important thing to note is that second turn Ghostly Prison is more likely than a turn 3 kill for Goblins (around 5%), but if Goblins doesn't have the nuts a Prison on turns 3/4 can still often win you the game. Seeing a first turn Chalice for 1 on the draw is also a near auto-loss.

@UrDraco - Excellent idea, I like the way you think. However I'm concerned about either having to move lands we want to see in our opening hand to the sideboard, or having to wish for sub-optimal lands. I can't see a way that grabbing a Golem from the board would help, since you can't cast Wish after the lock which is when you want it. I'm also uneasy at screwing around with the sideboard because quite frankly its fantastic the way it is but we will look into it. I'm happy you like the deck, positive feeback is always appreciated.

[insertnamehere]

What about Darksteel Colossus, Sundering Titan and Mindslaver. If you made the deck RUW you could add the counters to fend off the hate and the red for Goblin Welder for your artifacts and Rack and Ruin in combination with the mycosinth lattice against your opponents. Also what about mishra, Lattice makes permanents artifacts, so anything you play you can search for another one.

I think I might tweak this deck and post my opinions.

[C.P.]

That is also a huge minus. When you test against each other you can easily become used to the habits and notations of each other as well as being able to analyze their previous decklist. This gives you a big advantage that does not exist normally.

I'm the sui balck player that they're talking about, and while I do admit that knowing each other's decklist is an advantage, we tried to be as fair as possible. And the goblins list that they're using has slightly more advantage than other list aginst legacy weapon, as it maindecks 4 disenchant.

The deck really is a possible candidate for tier one, now I've seen the deck at work for more than 20 real games. About MWS, we'll do something about it once we have time.

@insertnamehere

That way of deckbuilding can be interesting, but it will turn the deck into someting entirely different. This deck is very proactive right now, and I do not see how it can gain something from the cards you mentioned.

[C-Aleric]

What about Darksteel Colossus, Sundering Titan and Mindslaver. If you made the deck RUW you could add the counters to fend off the hate and the red for Goblin Welder for your artifacts and Rack and Ruin in combination with the mycosinth lattice against your opponents. Also what about mishra, Lattice makes permanents artifacts, so anything you play you can search for another one.

See, making a RUW version of this deck would be pretty awesome. Except you lose two VERY VERY important cards. You lose Crop Rotation: The 'Anti-Wasteland', and 'Find Cloudpost in a pinch', as well as Sylvan Scrying, which tends to just do the latter. This is a huge part of the reason the deck has posted decent numbers. It can tutor for the artifacts it needs to get, and it can rotate for the lands it needs to have. This is vital in managing to keep this deck ahead of your opponent. A RUW build just seems like it would be way to slow to lock up, and would be a lot more inconsistant. With regards to Darksteel, the reason we chose not to run him over Angel, is beacuse Angel, post lock, means the game is won (except against things like: Uba Mask). Those are really the only two cards that can force us to draw it out. And since this deck has very little filtering/card digging, it normally comes out with the win. If the deck is still going to use Null Rod, then fun cards like Slaver can't be run either, which kind of sucks. It would be very run to run Slaver with this base, but it's just more fragile. All the pieces in my combo can't be targeted by Pithing Needle, which is very very useful a lot of the time. It's not Graveyard Dependant, and can Chalice for 2 pretty fast to deal with Disenchant (Just don't be an idiot, and play Chalice on 2 before Null Rod). Even 3 to deal with Grip now (Same applies to Prison, if you need it).



The Living Wish seems very good, with the exception (a huge one) that we can simply not afford to run 4x Couldpost and 4x Vesuva. The reason Golem in the deck, is because we don't need him in our hand, ever. So, Wish seems like it would help, but I think it would take a lot more away from the deck than it would add. And as Phya said, the sideboard is pretty stellar looking at the moment. The only thing that could happen (in my opinion) is dropping 1x Sacred Ground. Having 3 is nice, but when you can tutor for them, I don't think they are as vital. Especially with turn 1 Needle on Wasteland. That being said, I don't know what I would put into it yet either. Probably a 3rd Seal of Cleansing. That card post board just seems like it would help out in a lot of situations.



I believe the Goblin deck MD's 3 Disenchants, if I'm correct, which is a bit of an issue sometimes. But when Ringleader sends one to the bottom of the deck, I pretty much win. It again, is another thing that is glorious to watch happen.

(Kiki + Sharpshooter is some unbelieveably dirty crap. Gobs snuck one out from its ass with this stupid little combo. Ugh, I hate that deck)

[Cait_Sith]

I am not sure about Tier 1, but I feel it is time to move this into the Open forum.

@ C.P. I am glad to see that they are using a few more people :).

@ C-Aleric: I made another change to my decklist, but would you mind posting it on the front page with your own please?

@ Insert: For my own deck I have one reucrring Sundering Titan as a wincon, but that it is. Mindslaver COULD be useful but could does not cut it n a deck like this. Colossus is just plain too expensive for either deck and totally unnecessary. Mishra is utterly useless actually since you MUST have Myco in play to play him even.

[Cait_Sith]

I am not sure about Tier 1, but I feel it is time to move this into the Open forum.

@ C.P. I am glad to see that they are using a few more people :).

@ C-Aleric: I made another change to my decklist, but would you mind posting it on the front page with your own please?

@ Insert: For my own deck I have one reucrring Sundering Titan as a wincon, but that it is. Mindslaver COULD be useful but could does not cut it n a deck like this. Colossus is just plain too expensive for either deck and totally unnecessary. Mishra is utterly useless actually since you MUST have Myco in play to play him even.

[C-Aleric]

@ Cait-Sith

I don't know if I'll post both list on the opening post. I mean, they are far from the same deck, they both just use Lattice/Cloud-Vesuva. Aside from this fact, and the tutoring ability, they run very different kill conditions. This deck is more a C-Aleric/Phya creation, so I'll ask him as well. But odds are we'll keep the opening page to our own creation. We take pride in building new Jank-ass looking decks, then watching them rape the field. Though talk of your deck, and posting of its list is encouraged, we may keep the opening page as an updated version of our own. This is also the first on of our decks that we've decided to post on the internet. So it's been good to see all the positive feedback.

[C.P.]

@Phya, C-aleric

I Think you should be packing more than 4 disenchant effects, seeing how many enchatments can screw you over. The list of card that I can think of...

Energy Flux
Aura of silence
Seal of cleansing
Back to Basics (Yes, don't we all know just how dirty this card is)
Smokestack
Braids, Cabal Minion
Other random artifacts that hurts you each turn (Remember how you lost sometimes because you could not find the angel/golem until turn 4000?)

All these sees some play. I know that they are not tier 1 artifact/enchantment hate, but I still think it proves the point of packing more seals, even with the tutoring effect.

[blitz]

this deck is bangin'

Nice call on the vesuva + cloudpost for a legacy prison deck. Synergy ahoy!

[C-Aleric]

Thanks Blitz. The support is awesome.

The engine seems to be the only one available in this format that can generate the amount of mana that we need to.

We'll get some more testing to see if the Tier decks will take it down. I'm hoping that this won't be the case.

Made a slight change to the side board:

-1 Sacred Ground
+1 Seal of Cleansing

This is specifically for some more of those stupid things that will potentially hold us down. Like, Smokestack, and perhaps Braids (with lattice in play, she's fair game).

[Cait_Sith]

Sacred Ground hoses Smokestack and gives Braids problems as well.

[C-Aleric]

I agree with you, but, Seal can remove the problem. Stax will put problems on the table fast. Seals actually, will probably come in most useful, against Mono-Blue Control, because C.P. plays it religiously, and, honestly, that (Back to Basics) card sucks. Seriously, sucks badly.

Though, Phya did slap me when I forgot about how Sacred Ground pwns those cards. Thank you for reminding me. :) *rubs head from the beating*

[Cait_Sith]

Back to basics should give me alot more problems that it gives you. I need the constant tappage to maintain my lock. At least almost no one Mds it.

[C.P.]

Back to basics should give me alot more problems that it gives you. I need the constant tappage to maintain my lock. At least almost no one Mds it.

Well, I was just trying to list possible random hate. I'm just trying to stress the fact that seal of cleansing deals with more hate than the ground. Since you run the tutors, ground count can go down, I think.

[C-Aleric]

I'll have to go with C.P here as well. The Grounds are only going to be effective in very heavy LD situations, and against Smokestack. I can see seals end up solving a few pre-lock issues, when lattice is on the table against some strong creature decks as well.

Perhaps they should go into the deck against Sui-Black for the sake of rushing out lattice, so Seal can deal with Negator/Shade. Just an idea though.

[Cait_Sith]

I am wondering if I should post my deck in its own thread, since it is, at this point, so radically different from Legacy Weapon, or should we turn this into a Myco Lock thread?

[C-Aleric]

Yo Cait-Sith, I think we'll post your decklist on the front page as well, as an alternate build. We'll probably get around to it tomorrow. If you happen to post your deck anywhere else, we'd appreciate if you'd reference this thread as well. Thanks a lot.

I wish I had the deck built so I could play it at the local tourney tomorrow. Looks like I'll have to win with Fish again.

[Cait_Sith]

For you convience, my current list. It is SERIOUSLY starting to BARELY resemble the original deck.

3 Vesuva
1 Academy Ruins
3 Windswept Heath
4 Cloudpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains

2 Triskelion
1 Memnarch
1 Sundering Titan

3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mycosynth Lattice
3 Kill Switch
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Sylvan Library
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Crop Rotation
2 Silent Arbiter
2 Hanna's Custody

1 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Defense Grid
3 Sacred Ground
1 Platinum Angel
3 Seal of Cleansing

[Daze]

You keep tapping their lands during their upkeep. With Sphere of resistance they normally can only get 1 land down before it too becomes tapped. The lock is not as strong, but it contains fewer pieces, which is a big plus.

I don't get it... you tap their permanents in their upkeep, then it is your turn and you will only untap the Switch. This means that your opponent will be able to untap again, which is why I don't see the lock :(. You would need something like Thran Turbine to make it work, I guess.

(There was a deck like this on the wotc-page and I also found it somewhere on a "ask the judge" page:
Q: Me and some friends were arguing the other day about Kill Switch: If I have a Kill Switch out and activate it on my turn, will all of my other artifacts untap with it during my untap... Or will they stay tapped?

I said that they stay tapped, because in order for them to untap Kill Switch would have to untap first - and everything untaps at the same time. Please clear this confusing situation up...

A: You should never argue with your friends. Just tell them you're right, and I said so. You evaluate what you're going to untap, and then untap it (rule 302.1). When you evaluate, the Kill Switch is still tapped, so your other artifacts won't untap.)

[Eldariel]

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, anyone? You have Crop Rotations to bring 'em in and tutor 'em out, as well as to sac 'em for Posts in the event that you don't need them, they give you an alternative means to complete the lock against creatures, once you want to win, just play another Tabernacle and use the Legend-rule to kill 'em before casting the Mycosynth.

[blitz]

certainly, there are things besides cloudposts and vesuva to be gotten by crop rotation like chasm, tabernacle, ith, etc. But can the deck support more targets for crop rotation? Test and find out! =D

[Phya]

Yup, we thought of Tabernacle and quickly decided that the card was cool tech but didn't belong in here. The reason is that there is no real justification to run both Ghostly Prison and Tabernacle, and Ghostly Prison is just so more helpful before the lock. A Goblins player facing second turn Prison at best has a turn 6 kill, where as Tabernacle only slows them down to turn 4. If we were to swap Prison for Tabernacle I can't see our Goblins record being better than 20%, and that's just not acceptable. After the lock Tabernacle looks more powerful than Ghostly Prison, but there's no practical difference between giving your opponent no creatures and giving them creatures that can't attack or be activated... unless of course they're playing with Shizuko, Caller of Autumn. :laugh: There may be something I'm missing so if there is feel free to point it out.

In regards to Maze of Ith, it is definitely an interesting idea but I am not convinced of its usefulness since it isn't that great without Ghostly Prison (although it would be helpful against Sui Black until it runs into a Sinkhole) and there are very few aggro match-ups that you will lose after a fast Ghostly Prison. I also don't like the idea of running lands that don't tap for mana because this deck is an energy whore, but that's another thing we'll look into.

[blitz]

under the lock, they wouldn't be able to pay the upkeep for tabernacle, so would end up losing their creatures...

but before that, it's not really that hard to accomodate tabby (that's my name for it) and keep swinging unless we had a way to tap them out at the beginning of their upkeep (good luck).

But I'm thinking that maybe there is a target worth having that we haven't considered...

[Eldariel]

Yup, we thought of Tabernacle and quickly decided that the card was cool tech but didn't belong in here. The reason is that there is no real justification to run both Ghostly Prison and Tabernacle, and Ghostly Prison is just so more helpful before the lock. A Goblins player facing second turn Prison at best has a turn 6 kill, where as Tabernacle only slows them down to turn 4. If we were to swap Prison for Tabernacle I can't see our Goblins record being better than 20%, and that's just not acceptable. After the lock Tabernacle looks more powerful than Ghostly Prison, but there's no practical difference between giving your opponent no creatures and giving them creatures that can't attack or be activated... unless of course they're playing with Shizuko, Caller of Autumn. :laugh: There may be something I'm missing so if there is feel free to point it out.

Umm, I'm talking about SB-alternatives mostly. Also, the fact that you can scry and draw all you want since you have a free answer makes the card extremely powerful. It gives you more redundancy in ETutor-targets and Crop Rotation-targets to destroy them with. A fact of the matter is, that in Legacy, you can never have too good a Goblins-MU.

[C-Aleric]

Hello everyone. We did a few Solidarity match-ups today. Legacy Weapon triumphs once again to everyones (but ours) surprise by going 4-0. We wrote down 4 matches, as they progressed turn for turn. 3 from the perspective of the Solidarity player, and 1 from the perspective of L-W.

Solidarity vs. Legacy Weapon

LW wins flip

Game 1:

Opening hand: Island x2, Meditate, Flooded Strand, Flash of Insight, Remand, Impulse

Opp 1: Ancient Tomb, Chalice for 1
Me 1: Draw Island. Play fetch. Pass.
Opp 2: Cloudpost, Null Rod. EOT: Sacrifice fetchland for Island.
Me 2: Draw Brain Freeze. Island. Pass
Opp 3: Vesuva copying post. EOT: Impulse – see Remand, Island, High Tide, Reset – take Reset.
Me 3: Draw Brainstorm. Island. Pass.
Opp 4: Savannah, Sphere - in response Flash for 1: draw Reset.
Me 4: Draw Opt. Island. Pass.
Opp 5: Lattice – Remand: draw Brainstorm.
Me 5: Draw High Tide. Flash for 2 – see Peek, Peek. Take and discard Peek.

*The alternate plan was to play Meditate, which would have got me a Force, but I still couldn’t play it due to Sphere. The alternate-alternate plan was to play 2x Reset on his turn followed by Flash and Brain Freeze. This also would not have worked.

Opp 6: Lattice.


Legacy Weapon: 1-0

Game 2:

Opening hand:

2x Island, 2x Reset, High Tide, Flash of Insight, Twincast

Me 1: Island.
Opp 1: Heath, sacrifice to get a Savannah, play Root Maze.
Me 2: Draw Island, play Island (tapped).
Opp 2: Cloudpost.
Me 3: Draw Flooded Strand, play Island (tapped).
Opp 3: Vesuva copying Cloudpost, Sphere of Resistance.
Me 4: Draw Impulse. Play Flooded Strand (tapped).
Opp 4: Cloudpost, tap for seven, Chalice for three: In response impulse. See Force, Meditate, Opt, Island – take Force.
Me 5: Draw Turnabout. Pass.
Opp 5: Vesuva copying Cloudpost, tap Cloudpost for 4, play Defense Grid. Counter Defence Grid using Force of Will pitching Turnabout. Play Mycosynth Lattice, Null Rod.

Legacy Weapon: 2-0

Game 3:

Opening Hand: Island x3, Flooded Strand, Remand, Force of Will, Brain Freeze

Me 1: Flooded Strand.
Opp 1: Savannah. Root Maze, sacrifice Flooded Strand in response.
Me 2: Draw Impulse. Island (tapped).
Opp 2: Cloudpost. Enlightened Tutor for Null Rod.
Me 3: Draw Brainstorm. Island (tapped).
Opp 3: Vesuva copying Cloudpost. Sphere – remand: draw reset.
Me 4: Draw Turnabout. Island (tapped).
Opp 4: Ancient Tomb. Sphere – In response Brainstorm: draw Island, Turnabout, Impulse and put back: Island, Turnabout. Play impulse: see Turnabout, Island, Reset, Impulse – take Reset. I let Sphere resolve. He plays Null Rod.
Me 5: Draw Flash of Insight.
Opp 5: Vesuva copying Cloudpost. Chalice for 3. Chalice is countered using Force pitching Turnabout. He plays Pithing Needle naming Polluted Delta. EoT: Impulse – see Island x3, Meditate – take Meditate.
Me 6: Draw Island. Play Island.
Opp 6: Sphere #2, in response Flash for 1: draw Remand. Mycosynth Lattice.

Legacy Weapon: 3-0

NOW FROM LW’S PERSPECTIVE

Opening hand: Windswpet Heath, Ancient Tomb, Cloudpost, Defense Grid, Null Rod, Mycosynth Lattice, Enlightened Tutor


Opp 1:Polluted Delta.
Me 1: Draw: Ancient Tomb. Play Ancient Tomb, Defense Grid.
Opp 2: Flooded Strand.
Me 2: Draw: Defense Grid. Play Ancient Tomb, Defense Grid, Null Rod. EoT: He fetches for 2x Island.
Opp 3: Island. Flash for 1.
Me 3: Draw: Mycosynth Lattice. Play Windswept Heath, sacrifice Heath finding a Savannah, Enlightened Tutor for Sphere of Resistance.
Opp 4: Island. High Tide, plays Remand targeting High Tide. Then casts Opt, puts the card on the bottom of his library and draws another.
Me 4: Draw: Sphere of Resistance. Play Cloudpost, and Sphere of Resistance.
Opp 5: Flooded Strand. Sacrifices it searching for an Island. Casts High Tide, Remand targeting High Tide. Draws the card and passes.
Me 5: Draw: Ancient Tomb. Play Ancient Tomb. Play Mycosynth Lattice. Win. Life = 5.

Legacy Weapon: 4-0



Hope we get lots of flak for our play styles. Let us know if we were screwing up. Comments are greatly appreciated, as always.

[Cavius The Great]

I am not sure about Tier 1, but I feel it is time to move this into the Open forum.

I feel that there's been alot of intelligent discussion about this deck. You guys are die hard about testing it and I have to give you guys alot of props. But until you Top 4 in a major tourney with the deck, I feel that the deck isn't worthy of being in the Open Forums.

[Cait_Sith]

Bump.

Edit: That means I just have to win a few times, eh? Well then, I'll find Legacy Tournaments in Albany!

Bumping without adding anything to the discussion is against site rules. Please avoid it in the future. - Zilla

I bumped it because the first post on this page was blocked off by a bug.

[C-Aleric]

@ Cavius the Great

That is a fair statement to make. It is unproven. Major Legacy tournaments however, are few and far between. It will not be so easy to just go to one, and win first try. Mind you, if there is one, I will be taking this deck with me, for sure.

There is (or was supposed to be) a legacy tournament every weekend for local players at a store near us. However, that store decided to be closed when the tournament was suppose to be on. So, no tournament results. Though, we will continue to test the deck. Hopefully it will continue its string of good results against the Tier decks, and will be able to be moved up on that account alone. There are some decks in open discussion that I know post worse records against tier decks, and since that seems to be the most important thing to legacy players at the moment, the exposure to this may be helpful.

Ultimately, I know this isn't my decision. Regardless, any club with Zoo/Belcher/Zilla Stompy can't be too exclusive. :wink:


PS: Added Combo Elves? to the testing gauntlet. I almost feel bad for doing it.

[vigilante]

I don't get it... you tap their permanents in their upkeep, then it is your turn and you will only untap the Switch. This means that your opponent will be able to untap again, which is why I don't see the lock :(. You would need something like Thran Turbine to make it work, I guess.

(There was a deck like this on the wotc-page and I also found it somewhere on a "ask the judge" page:
Q: Me and some friends were arguing the other day about Kill Switch: If I have a Kill Switch out and activate it on my turn, will all of my other artifacts untap with it during my untap... Or will they stay tapped?

I said that they stay tapped, because in order for them to untap Kill Switch would have to untap first - and everything untaps at the same time. Please clear this confusing situation up...

A: You should never argue with your friends. Just tell them you're right, and I said so. You evaluate what you're going to untap, and then untap it (rule 302.1). When you evaluate, the Kill Switch is still tapped, so your other artifacts won't untap.)
Daze makes an excellent point...doesn't the Kill Switch version of the lock not work due to it's "They don't untap during their controllers' untap steps as long as Kill Switch remains tapped" clause?

Cait Sith: During testing, have you been using Kill Switch/Mycosynth Lattice properly (ie. you tap all permanents during your opponent's upkeep, but then only your Kill Switch untaps during your untap step)? It would seem to me that the Null Rod version of the deck just took the lead in the "which version is better" stakes, seeing as it actually works.

[Cait_Sith]

Actually I just redid my enitre premise. La Cle no longer resembles Legacy Weapon. (Also, The Great God Richard Garfield ordered Thran Turbine to be, and so it was.

[C-Aleric]

So, now you have 2 colorless mana on your upkeep? So if they play a land, which chances are, sometimes they will just get to play spells. Iggy Pop seems like it would basically laugh at you, eventually. Dark Ritual -> Vincicate seems like it will be an issue as well. Burn seems like it will be able to Crash whenever it plays a land, which isn't going to be so ideal for you either.

Kill Switch + Mycosynth Lattice + Thran Turbine, means they can't play many spells. However, you don't seem to have a win condition. Or so you don't speak of one. Memnarch is no longer viable, since you don't have the mana.

I'm interested in seeing the list though, since you can't use creatures to kill (from the switch), and you don't get to untap, or use Thran's mana to play spells.

[Cait_Sith]

You noted that I get 1 untapped land. Enter Sleeper Agent. Also, the turn I activate the lock I can use Devouring Greed to punish them. Right now I am testing Jax and playing Spring Tide, so I don't have time to try out my own build now. (And IggyPop going off successfully with one land is a rather uncommon occurance.

[Phya]

Sleeper Agent is cool, good call for thinking of it. However, if you have one mana to play Sleeper Agent your opponent has one mana to play Swords or Lightning Bolt or Ghastly Demise or Innocent Blood etc.

You are also flat out wrong about Iggy Pop not being able to go off on one land, since you're confusing "going off on one land" with "going off on first turn." Judging by the cards you've provided the fastest you can win is by turn 4 lock + Sleeper Agent, which gives your opponent until turn 14 (unless you also drop one turn 5 which is still turn 10). You also need to factor in that your opponent gets to attack with Agent the turn you play it so Iggy has less work to do. Iggy Pop will just go to turn 13 then play Swamp, Dark Rit and your game is over. Assuming you get lucky and find two Chalices for 0 and 1 you can't play Sleeper Agent or Thran Turbine.

[Cait_Sith]

You seemed abit confused. Sleeper goes down after the lock. And CotV goes right through my lock when set to 0. Hehe.

[C.P.]

@ Cait_Sith
Sleeper agent being a creature can cause some trouble. As Phya mentioned above, it can be removed by bolt/sword/chain/innocent blood, which is not very ideal, given that you need at least 10 turns to win.

Being a prison deck that allows your opponents to play a land to play things reminds me of Stasis(ones without white). Only difference is that stasis can counter their spells while you cannot. Exploration looks like a natural foil to your deck as well. Stifle is going to hurt, too, since you will allow an untap step. Needle on kill switch can wreck you, but I'm assuming that you're aware of it.

My point is that youre deck needs more reliable lock mechanism. I don't see how your deck is better than stasis.

[Cait_Sith]

2 words. Colorless Mana. It allows me to get a good lock out faster than Stasis. Besides, I'm pretty much done with this deck. I am working on Rifter/Jax(Stax)/Spring Tide now. As well as Verdant Hermit in Type 2. It is probably the best deck I ever made.

[Plank]

Stasis can get a hard lock on turn 3 - 4. (Hard lock as in Kismet, Stasis, and Forsaken City) I think Turbo Stasis can do it even faster with Rootmaze.

Stasis rocks hard by the way.

[vigilante]

Now that it's been established that the two-card "combo" of Kill Switch & Mycosynth Lattice doesn't actually work very well (unless you add in a third piece -- Thran Turbine -- which does absolutely nothing useful on it's own), it seems like a fair assumption that the Null Rod/Mycosynth Lattice/Ghostly Prison version is superior.

Regarding the win condition of that variant...is it possible to improve upon Mycosynth Golem/Platinum Angel? While the hard lock produced by the combo means that you will almost certainly win the game after the lock is established, I can imagine a lot of games in tournament settings taking a *very* long time to finish (sort of reminiscent of the Stasis problem -- time). Platinum Angel may very well save you from life loss and decking, but it won't save you from the clock. All your opponent has to do is resolve something capable of blocking the Angel and/or Mycosynth Golem, and you can no longer beat them down, in which case you're reduced to decking them. At this point you open yourself up to the ol' "I'll take 5 minutes to decide which land to play" tactic. Would something like Viceling be worth considering? (You can play it for free after you resolve a Mycosynth Golem).

[Phya]

Stasis can get a hard lock on turn 3 - 4. (Hard lock as in Kismet, Stasis, and Forsaken City) I think Turbo Stasis can do it even faster with Rootmaze.

Stasis rocks hard by the way.

Seconded.

Stasis gets a hard lock even without acceleration as fast as your best hand, 2nd turn Howling Mine, 3rd turn Orb of Dreams, 4th Stasis... or replace the mine with a Tog if you want to play it risky. Turbo Stasis can get a hard lock turn 3. Although *shrug* doesn't matter because unless someone else picks up La Cle there's no point discussing it.

@ vigilante

We did consider Viseling but mentioned very briefly somewhere in the earlier pages. The possibility of running to time is a legitimate concern, although given the number of DQs at Worlds I'm slightly less worried about it. A good thing about the lock it's really easy to prove that your opponent is stalling, since the number of decks that actually can play another spell after MycoRod is very small and even the ones than can don't really have decisions that can warrant taking a long time to think. Also, against most match ups Angel is a faster kill than Viseling since she can do an extra damage a turn. All I can think of that won't allow a faster Angel win are bigger flying creatures (Fledgling, Enforcer, Akroma) or Confinement... which they can't pay for and therefore doesn't really count.

[Mordel]

This deck makes me cry...I bet CtG shat upon because of jealousy.

How did this just sort of fizz out?

[C.P.]

This deck makes me cry...I bet CtG shat upon because of jealousy.

How did this just sort of fizz out?

Not lying, it actually kinda worked. I tested with the creators of the deck back in the day, and we were all suprised how this pile somehow stole games.

That said, C-Aleric did have tendency to go bit overboard, so it does look like CtG stuff...

[Xero]

This deck does not look awful, unlike Nourishing Lich, etc. from Cavius.

[keys]

Isn't mono white Stax strictly better than this? The Null Rod/Mycosynth Lattice combo seems janky as hell...lol.

[C.P.]

Isn't mono white Stax strictly better than this? The Null Rod/Mycosynth Lattice combo seems janky as hell...lol.

SO is your face.

You should test more instead of being funny. White Stax doesn't win games and have good thresh matchups. Google Legacy Weapon, and you'll find primer for how to play this great deck properly. Probably in Germany, I think.

[Blade]

Just jumping into this discussion, and I haven't tested the deck all that much but one thing struck me. I was playing the "revised" version and I began thinking that Trisk wasn't our best creature choice. I'm thinking Karn, Silver Golem. It can't kill creatures, but it can kill lands (with Lattice), which, since the removal of Null Rod, would be nice. And its huge ass also works as a stall engine.

[MadAlchemist]

Please enjoy/ critique my version which evolved from a prison deck with a chalice at 1 on turn 1 game plan.

Lattice of Persecution

10 Creatures

2 Greater Gargadon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Abyssal Persecutor

24 Spells
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Null Rod
4 Mycosynth Lattice
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Smokestack
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Cabal Therapy

26 Lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Peat Bog
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
1 Maze of Ith
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plateau
4 Scrubland


Alternate Card choices:

Simian spirit guide - cheats Greater Gargadon a 9/7 fattie into play under the lock. Is used with abanadon for acceleration and can get aroung daze.

Greater Gargadon can't be blasted, cant' be countered, can remove the persecuter, a win condition with mind tricks.

Abyssal Persecuter - can be better than a prison on turn 2. Autowin vs. Fish (when he leaves play with both players at 0 you win. Helps matchups vs. aggro, control, combo...everything.

Smokestack - removes everything

Cabal Therapy - removes the Abyssal Persecuter cast it colorless or use it from the grave for free

Wastlend - synergy with fast mana lands and removes The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale which is the single most effective card AGAINST this deckj

Peat bog - see persecuter

Thoughts - might remove the ports and the maze if ith for more white sources.