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Bryant Cook
01-22-2007, 08:06 PM
A few weeks ago I was playing against Belcher in the semi finals with a red green white loam confinement deck. I have 3 untapped mana and its his turn. He combos out a belcher and fires it off at me. Revealing cards since he still has land in the deck. He stops at just about enough to get lethal. I respond by cycling a Tranquil Thicket, I draw a Forgotten Cave, cycle again, not really expecting to have an answer to this mind you, and draw a Crop Rotation off the top. I cast it and rip Glacial Chasm into play. The damage is prevented, I untap and cast Confinement ftw. Wow.


You lost that game buddy, way to cheat. You can't respond to the flipping of cards.

Bane of the Living
01-22-2007, 08:21 PM
You lost that game buddy, way to cheat. You can't respond to the flipping of cards.

You flip cards before choosing a target. I dont get priority after he chooses? Thats news to me. Looks like Im a lucky cheater.

Ebinsugewa
01-22-2007, 08:22 PM
You flip cards before choosing a target. I dont get priority after he chooses? Thats news to me. Looks like Im a lucky cheater.

Q: I only play MTGO, and it has the great feature of not letting you do anything that would break the rules. Assuming the program is correct, why then, can I not react to Goblin Charbelcher (http://www.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Goblin Charbelcher) after the cards have been revealed? It allows me to react before the cards are revealed, but after they have been shown, I can't do anything until after the damage ability resolves (killing my creature in the process when I could have saved it with Pearl Shard (http://www.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Pearl Shard), for instance). Is it because the damage is being applied outside the combat phase? Could it be a default setting in the MTGO game I'm not aware of?
A; MTGO is handling this situation properly. Only combat damage uses the stack as a separate entity. Damage from spells and abilities is dealt when those spells or abilities resolve, so the damage from Charbelcher is dealt when the ability resolves. Once cards are revealed it is too late to play anything else. In order to try and save it with damage prevention you must use the prevention spell or ability before the Charbelcher ability starts to resolve. Unfortunately for you at this point you won't know if it will be enough or needed at all as you don't know how much damage the Charbelcher ability will deal.

- From Starcity Ask the Judge

Dr. Teeth
01-22-2007, 08:24 PM
nice try buddy, but you choose a target before you even pay the cost, so he was cheating. someone correct me with comprehensive rules if i'm wrong here.

Cait_Sith
01-22-2007, 08:30 PM
What happens is the flipping of cards is done resolution of the ability. At that point it is too late to do anything but pray he topdecks a land.

MasterBlaster
01-22-2007, 08:37 PM
Perhaps this thread should be put in the rule question forum.

Cait_Sith
01-22-2007, 08:43 PM
I know I'm right, this situation has come up before on rules sections in other sites. Do you want me to try to find the Comprehensive Rule for this situation?

ForceofWill
01-22-2007, 09:10 PM
he pays three and taps belcher chooses targets and puts on the stack. you can then respond once the ability resolves and he hits enough to do leathal when the ability finishes you die. Even if your at 20 with a ravenous baloth in play and he belches for 20-23. You can't sac the baloth unless you do it before he flips.

Pinder
01-23-2007, 02:46 PM
Exactly. You can respond to the ability while it's on the stack, but at the point there's no card flipping going on. Your opponent doesn't start flipping cards until the ability resolves, and by that point you can't do anything until the ability is finished resolving, i.e., after you've been dealt the damage.

DeathwingZERO
02-06-2007, 06:38 AM
And no, Bane......the target is chosen before the flip happens. Anything that's an activation or an announcement (spell) must first choose targets, then work with it's abilities. Example:

Q: When activating Goblin Charbelcher's ability, I think I first reveal cards and then choose the target, because this is the order of actions written on the card. However, most people say I have to choose the target first. What comes first?

A: You chose targets first. “Activation” is also called “announcement”. One of the parts of announcement of any spell or ability is choosing any and all it's target(s) [CR409.1c]. When the ability resolves you'll reveal cards. If you're out of land, your whole library will be revealed, you'll get to stack your library when putting those cards back, and the target will take damage equal to that number of cards.

DeathwingZERO
02-06-2007, 06:52 AM
Since for some reason "Edit" isn't working for me, I have to double post for the info. Here's the actual relevant info in the rule in case you wanted to take a look at it:

409.1c If the spell or ability requires any targets, the player first announces how many targets he or she will choose (if the spell or ability has a variable number of targets), then announces the targets themselves. A player can’t play a spell or ability unless he or she chooses the required number of legal targets.

Cavius The Great
02-06-2007, 05:55 PM
You lost that game buddy, way to cheat. You can't respond to the flipping of cards.

Can't he respond to the Belcher when damage is on the stack and win anyways?

Ewokslayer
02-06-2007, 06:11 PM
Can't he respond to the Belcher when damage is on the stack and win anyways?

Only combat damage goes on the stack in that way.


He could have responded to the activation of the belcher ability.
However, he did not and let his opponent to flip cards.
That occurs during the resolution of the ability and that is also when the damage is dealt.

Once the ability finishs resolving the active player would get priority. However before that occurs State Based Effects are checked and someone has less than one life and they lose.

Complete_Jank
02-06-2007, 09:29 PM
I cast Sunned Shock on bane_of_the_living who is at 2.

After it resolves he casts Pulse of the Field gains 4 life and then gets it back because I am at 20.

Then he takes damage and is at 4.

If you read the errata on bane_of_the_living you'll notice all damage dealt goes onto the stack.

Nightmare
02-07-2007, 08:23 AM
I cast Sunned Shock on bane_of_the_living who is at 2.

After it resolves he casts Pulse of the Field gains 4 life and then gets it back because I am at 20.

Then he takes damage and is at 4.

If you read the errata on bane_of_the_living you'll notice all damage dealt goes onto the stack.I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny with this or serious, but either way it's incorrect. The question has been answered.