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Bryant Cook
01-23-2007, 01:34 PM
Legacy had a "Power 9" what do you think they would be? Here's my guess/vote...

Force of Will
Swords to Plowshares
Dark Confidant
Goblin Lackey
Life from the Loam
Reset
Lion's Eye Diamond
Dark Ritual
Brainstorm

These cards do not HAVE to appear in every deck as they do in most Vintage decks.
EDIT::These cards should probably be format defining...

Nightmare
01-23-2007, 01:48 PM
I'm sure we have a discussion of this somewhere, but I don't care enough to find it and merge them.

Silverdragon
01-23-2007, 02:10 PM
I think the cards on a list like this should be generally powerful and something you always at least consider putting in your deck when playing the color so no Goblin Lackey or Reset for me.
I'd say the list looks something like
Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lightning Bolt
Swords to Plowshares
Pithing Needle
Aether Vial
Dark Ritual
Duress
Wasteland (or LftL or Bob or whatever)

Of course there are many other cards that seem to always get mentioned when someone posts a deck in a certain color or with a certain theme but you know it's called power 9 so I had to cut down ;)

Eldariel
01-23-2007, 02:18 PM
Meh, Vintage P9 doesn't really account for the actual format-defining cards (Yawgmoth's Will, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Drain, Bazaar of Baghdad, etc.) I don't really see how we could make a similar list for Legacy.

Anyway, if we were going to, I'd make a list like wastedlife's pretty much.

nitewolf9
01-23-2007, 02:21 PM
In order from least to greatest:

9. Dandan
8. flare
7. sorrow's path
6. swords to plowshares
5. force of will
4. aether vial
3. plague wind
2. one with nothing

And of course,

1. Didgeridoo

Pinder
01-23-2007, 02:31 PM
Interesting Discussion. I'm not sure I can really think of 9, but here's a list of cards that, when I'm playing that color, (or that strategy) are pretty much auto-includes:


Swords to Plowshares
Force of Will
Duress
Brainstorm
Lightning Bolt
Wasteland
Rancor

Tosh
01-23-2007, 02:35 PM
Duress
Brainstorm
Wasteland
Force of Will
Umezawa's Jitte
Leyline of the Void
Swords to Plowshares
Aether Vial
Lightning Bolt

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-23-2007, 02:37 PM
1. Duals
2. Fetches
3. Wasteland
4. FoW
5. StP
6. Goblin Lackey
7. Aether Vial
8. Reset
9. Brainstorm

That wasn't very exciting.

Pinder
01-23-2007, 02:56 PM
1. Duals
2. Fetches


Yeah, if we're going for 'format defining', I think that this hits it dead on. This format is built on duals and fetches. How many multicolored deck ideas don't start with '4 of the appropriate dual and 4 of the appropriate fetch'?

Goblin Snowman
01-23-2007, 03:13 PM
Nonduels that I think deserve a mention for shaping our format and being very powerful.

Lackey
Brainstorm
Aether Vial
Duress
Force of Will
Cunning Wish
Burning Wish
Survival o' teh Fittest
Jitte

Buring Wish might not make it on, but it's so Comboriftic.

xsockmonkeyx
01-23-2007, 03:27 PM
Spatula wins the thread.

Complete_Jank
01-23-2007, 05:07 PM
This isn't that great of a topic, but I have time so hear me roar. lol

The cards should be able to be defined by cards that will consist in 90% of the decks that run the color. Duals will be cut, as there are 10 of those alone, and no Fetches, as there are 5 of those too. Artifacts will of course be in if they see play in multiple decks.

MY Top 9

Swords to Plowshares - Solid creature removal
Force of Will - Blue Staple Card
Brainstorm - Goes hand in hand with FoW, and because of shuffle effects is a great card.
Dark Ritual - Next to FoW and Brainstorm, it is the single most played card on this list.
Lightning Bolt - Most red decks run this.
Pernicious Deed - Arguably the best removal in the game.
Lotus Petal/Mox Diamond - Mana accel for both combo and control.
Crucible of Worlds - Colorless allows it to be played in any deck looking to use it.
Wasteland - Single most played land in the format, next to Island probably.


Noticeable absences:

Goblin Lackey - Only good in one deck, Goblins.
Duress - Great card, but not solid enough on its own.
Elvish Spirit Guide - Great card, my favorite actually, but not strong enough or played enough.
AEther Vial - Not useable by more than 3 decks.
Life from the Loam - Deck has to be constructed around it. Also this card will no longer be playable after the PC becomes legal.
Burning Wish - Use to be in the top 9, but now often is too slow.
Cunning Wish - Same as Burning Wish, but this still sees more play.
Dark Confidant - Not enough play, and not played by many decks that run Black.
Reset - One deck card, not even mentionable really.
Lion's Eye Diamond - Few decks can take advantage of its mana.

Machinus
01-23-2007, 06:01 PM
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire
Flooded Strand
Wooded Foothills
Windswept Heath

Jaynel
01-23-2007, 06:53 PM
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire
Flooded Strand
Wooded Foothills
Windswept Heath

I assume the blue duals are the remaining 4 cards.

Cait_Sith
01-23-2007, 06:53 PM
The Legacy Power 9 eh? In no particular order (except the number one)


SpatulaOfTheAges

Mr. Nightmare

Lego_Army_Man

InfamousBearAssassin

Finn

Complete_Jank

Goblin Snowman

wastedlife

xsockmonkeyx

DarkAkuma
01-23-2007, 06:59 PM
Dual Lands
Hymn to Torach
Dark Ritual
Force of Will
Brainstorm
AEther Vial
Swords to Plowshares
Wasteland
Lightning Bolt

All these are unique to the Eternal formats, and have to be exspected from the decks playing the colors, except Bolt and Vial. Bolt got included despite not being played in the #1 red deck, cause it just happens to be one of the few red decks that just cant play it regularly. And i bring up vial because its not only included with certain colors, but gets at the very least, considered for anything agro.

TheDarkshineKnight
01-23-2007, 08:36 PM
It's the Power 1. Not the Power 9.

The only card that can be considered akin to Power in Legacy is Wasteland.

Cait_Sith
01-23-2007, 08:40 PM
I don't know, after Hardcasting GreenMyCon in my Emo deck I won't doubt anything anymore.

Bryant Cook
01-23-2007, 09:15 PM
I don't know, after Hardcasting GreenMyCon in my Emo deck I won't doubt anything anymore.

Quoted for hilarity

Lanfeng
01-23-2007, 09:21 PM
1. Duals
2. Fetches
3. Wasteland
4. FoW
5. StP
6. Goblin Lackey
7. Aether Vial
8. Reset
9. Brainstorm

That wasn't very exciting.

Needs more Pernicious deed, its really too bad deed doesn't get good support from its colors.

Bardo
01-23-2007, 11:52 PM
Legacy doesn't have any true "power cards," ([So]LoMoxenAncestral[Tinker]Walk that are run in every deck that can and pretty much force you to run them or have a bad deck) but it does have several staples that, together, define what's going to be good or shitty.

Here's my list of 10 cards that I came up with when writing a post (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31536.msg455303#msg455303) on TMD (LoA is usually considered power card #10):

1. Alpha Dual lands (plus Volcanic Island, or whichever one was left out of the Alpha print-run)
2. Onslaught Fetch lands
3. Wasteland (regulates the growth and consistency of poly-chromatic decks)
4. Force of Will (limits turn-1/2 degeneracy; empowers combo and aggro-control)
5. Brainstorm (makes blue-based control, combo and aggro-control viable and consistent when coupled with fetchlands)
6. Goblin Lackey (forces decks to answer a turn-1 threat)
7. Swords to Plowshares (most efficient creature removal in the format)
8. Tormod's Crypt (most efficient graveyard removal in the format)
9. Pithing Needle (most versatile answer to a variety of upper-tier permanents)
10. AEther Vial (format-defining in its own right; stymies countermagic, fixes mana, does nutty stuff)

The only ones are like "real" powers card are Force of Will--which turns a random blue card in your hand into an instant-speed Lotus that sacs for UU (the "fair" cost of a counterspell)--and Goblin Lackey which turns combat damage into free loti.

What's interesting about my list looking at it, is that all of the cards on it cost 0 or 1 mana. I think this is a hallmark of the format itself, where decks are required to seek efficiency anywhere possible (Vial and Lackey in Goblins; StP and Force in Threshold, etc.) or be outcompeted.

I'm not actually sold on Pithing Needle, but I wanted a list of ten cards. Everyone likes things that end in a zero.

Machinus
01-24-2007, 12:09 AM
I think my five cards are better than everyone elses.

Bardo
01-24-2007, 12:25 AM
I think my five cards are better than everyone elses.

Fetchlands are one of the most important parts of the Legacy card pool, arguably as important as the A/B/U/R duals (or really close to it), but the fetchlands' value are no more important than the cards they support (duals, basics, Brainstorm, etc.) They don't do anything on their own, you know?


Needs more Pernicious deed, its really too bad deed doesn't get good support from its colors.

Deed is good, but it's also slow, forces you into colors that aren't too spectacular together and doesn't really come alive until turn 4. The best cards in the format are playable on turn 1, like Vintage.

ForceofWill
01-24-2007, 01:10 AM
Not many play it now but Survival is quite broken. IF I'm playing in a deck and it hits the table I usually win.

jamest
01-24-2007, 01:27 AM
1. Goblin Lackey
2. Aether Vial
3. Goblin Warchief
4. Goblin Piledriver
5. Gempalm Incinerator
6. Goblin Ringleader
7. Goblin Matron
8. Mogg Fanatic
9. Goblin Tinkerer / Tin Street Hooligan

Bardo
01-24-2007, 01:31 AM
Not many play it now but Survival is quite broken. IF I'm playing in a deck and it hits the table I usually win.

True, unless you're playing IGGy Pop or something, an active SotF is a real bitch to win against. However, most Survival decks run so many situational "toolbox" cards (that suck to draw in the wrong situation) and have a hard time winning if they can't stick and abuse Survival, that it's hard to call Survival of the Fittest a "power card," in reality or the abstract.

Really, Survival in Legacy is a lot like Oak of Druids in Vintage, which is probably not the deck that's going to take you to the finals somewhere.

When you're deck is built around a 2-mana green enchantment, caveat emptor.

@ Jamest - Tendrils of Agony and Engineered Plague might have a word with your list. ;)

emidln
01-24-2007, 06:30 AM
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein
Mox Diamond
Trinisphere
Chalice of the Void
Ensnaring Bridge
Sylvan Library
Uba Mask

And the Library award:
Crucible of Worlds

Cavius The Great
01-24-2007, 10:24 AM
Isn't the main reason Power Nine, is what it is, because of the ridiculously expensive price tag? Besides it's initial power level, most people recognize Power Nine because of it's hefty monetary value. Just my two cents.

scrumdogg
01-24-2007, 11:02 AM
Isn't the main reason Power Nine, is what it is, because of the ridiculously expensive price tag? Besides it's initial power level, most people recognize Power Nine because of it's hefty monetary value. Just my two cents.

But you need to ask yourself why the Power Nine have those price tags. The answer is simple supply & demand - low printed supply & demand for almost every deck in Vintage....even with proxies allowed in the vast majority of Vintage tournaments. Furthermore, if you look at the cards most people are touting, they tend to be among the pricier cards in our format (and for exactly the same reason as the Power Nine, except we have larger print pools & slightly less broken cards...).

I believe Bardo is on the right track of the definition of a Legacy Power Nine/Ten. They are cards that A) shape & define the format by B) being hyper-efficient in both cost & function & C) are played in almost every deck that can support them. As such, I would have to agree with


1. Alpha Dual lands (plus Volcanic Island, or whichever one was left out of the Alpha print-run)
2. Onslaught Fetch lands
3. Wasteland (regulates the growth and consistency of poly-chromatic decks)
4. Force of Will (limits turn-1/2 degeneracy; empowers combo and aggro-control)
5. Brainstorm (makes blue-based control, combo and aggro-control viable and consistent when coupled with fetchlands)
6. Goblin Lackey (forces decks to answer a turn-1 threat)
7. Swords to Plowshares (most efficient creature removal in the format)
8. Tormod's Crypt (most efficient graveyard removal in the format)
9. Pithing Needle (most versatile answer to a variety of upper-tier permanents)
10. AEther Vial (format-defining in its own right; stymies countermagic, fixes mana, does nutty stuff)

Machinus
01-24-2007, 11:51 AM
Fetchlands are one of the most important parts of the Legacy card pool, arguably as important as the A/B/U/R duals (or really close to it), but the fetchlands' value are no more important than the cards they support (duals, basics, Brainstorm, etc.) They don't do anything on their own, you know?

I completely disagree. I think fetchlands are way more important. Legacy is about fetch->basic, not duals. And they do quite a lot on their own. They thin your deck and shuffle it, both of which are very useful. Combined with draw effects they are simply amazing.

They are the "power five!"

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-24-2007, 12:05 PM
I completely disagree. I think fetchlands are way more important. Legacy is about fetch->basic, not duals. And they do quite a lot on their own. They thin your deck and shuffle it, both of which are very useful. Combined with draw effects they are simply amazing.

They are the "power five!"


Legacy is about Fetch -> whatever mana you need. In a deck with Fetches and duals, the fetches tend to be better draws, but in the absence of the dual-lands, the fetch-lands would be nowhere near as efficient. The function of the fetch-lands is directly dependant on the presence of dual-lands *and* basics.

Bardo
01-24-2007, 12:37 PM
I completely disagree. I think fetchlands are way more important. Legacy is about fetch->basic, not duals. And they do quite a lot on their own. They thin your deck and shuffle it, both of which are very useful. Combined with draw effects they are simply amazing.

They are the "power five!"

Meh, I'm not going to split hairs about it. It doesn't really matter. Fetchlands are good; basics are good; duals are good; shuffling is good. In short, it's all good.

But fetchlands are not "power" cards.

By definition, power cards break the game:

Mox: breaks "play 1 land per turn" rule
Black Lotus: see Mox
Ancestral: breaks the "draw 1 card per turn" rule
Time Walk: breaks the, um, "take 1 turn per turn" rule

(All of these cards have functional reprints--shit like Time Warp, Inspiration, etc. but they're "fairly" cost for what they do. Power cards are not properly cost--which is what makes them "broken." If Mox Ruby cost {2} it would not be broken--it would be a bad Talisman of Impulse. Or if you had to wait several turns to play Black Lotus, that would also be fair.)

Timetwister is accepted into the "power nine" simply as an honor position at this point. It's by far the cheapest $$ (least demand) and is only played in dirty combo decks, by and large.

Legacy merely has, really good cards that are great, but don't break the deeper structure of the game. So, it has staples and cards that are so much better than comparitors that they're played in enough quantities to give a general character to the format. That's what my list is about. And fetchlands are really important, but they're not a Black Lotus.

Machinus
01-24-2007, 01:43 PM
Precisely, there are no broken cards. I could make a huge list of good cards and it would be very hard to decide which are better than others. Listing all the common top8 cards really doesn't have a lot to do with inherent power level.

The most meaningful interpretation of "power" is not brokenness, but necessity in deckbuilding. In describing Vintage, they are not spoken about as breaking rules of the game (remember, everything is a time walk), but as essential and indispensible elements of deck construction. In this way, fetchlands are the power cards of the format, since good Legacy decks on average run eight of them!

I also think almost all Legacy players underestimate the power of fetchlands.

Nightmare
01-24-2007, 01:47 PM
I also think almost all Legacy players underestimate the power of fetchlands.I think almost all people using the handle Machinus make broad, sweeping, unfounded generalizations.

Cait_Sith
01-24-2007, 02:37 PM
I think that Mr. Nightmare made my argument sans swearing and insults.

Bardo
01-24-2007, 03:23 PM
The most meaningful interpretation of "power" is not brokenness, but necessity in deckbuilding. In describing Vintage, they are not spoken about as breaking rules of the game (remember, everything is a time walk), but as essential and indispensible elements of deck construction. In this way, fetchlands are the power cards of the format, since good Legacy decks on average run eight of them!

"Power" implies more than something "necessary." It means "powerful." Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Brainstorm, Force of Will, Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will, most of the blue A/B/U/R duals, basic Islands are all ubiquitous in Vintage deck construction (not to mention other highly popular cards like Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, etc), but are never referred to as "power cards" and they are essentially "necessary" to play, lest you have a bad deck

"Power 9" is really just a romantic carry-over from the appeal of MtG's early days, when things like The Deck used to actually run Timetwister. It's really an anachronism, since Yawg's Will and Tinker are on par with the rest of the Power 9.

Machinus
01-24-2007, 04:17 PM
I think almost all people using the handle Machinus make broad, sweeping, unfounded generalizations.

Broad, sure, but definitely not unfounded. I welcome your analysis.

If you're talking about fetchlands, you might want to read the threads actually arguing about whether or not it's "worth it" to have better draws.


As for "power," the word does not mean "broken" any longer. A huge number of Vintage-legal cards break fundamental magic rules, and most of them aren't even on the restricted list. Vintage players don't refer to "power" as exceptionally broken cards; since every person plays with them, they aren't much more broken than tons of other cards, and they define the environment, their description is one of deckbuilding context.

Legacy is too young to have discovered its foundational cards, but we do know some of them. Understanding what cards define the format really doesn't have anything to do with fundamental magic rules; what is important is the power of cards relative to everything else. Currently, Legacy is actually pretty well-balanced. If I had to find an exception, I would probably choose the strength of Wasteland vs. the stronger defense of Fetchlands. On top of that, they perform free services for the consistency and quality of your deck.

Complete_Jank
01-24-2007, 04:17 PM
The Legacy Power 9 eh? In no particular order (except the number one)


Complete_Jank

Mr. Nightmare

Lego_Army_Man

InfamousBearAssassin

Finn

SpatulaOfTheAges

Goblin Snowman

wastedlife

xsockmonkeyx

LOL


By definition, power cards break the game

Actually most of the Power 9 in Vintage are not broken. They are just really good cards that you would want to play in almost any deck that you could manage to fit them into.

There are other cards that are on the restricted list that are actually better.

The Power 9 in Vintage all allow one thing: More Mana and/or card draw for more than their mana cost.

Bardo
01-24-2007, 04:23 PM
They are just really good cards that you would want to play in almost any deck that you could manage to fit them into.

There are other cards that are on the restricted list that are actually better.

The P9 is not just "good," they bend the rules of the game to the extent that break how the game is structured at its core--which is basically to nuke the limiting rules on mana development (and card drawing to a lesser extent)--which is one of the most important limits in the early game.

If you could play 4 of each Mox, Lotus and Ancestral in Vintage (7 of the P9), Magic would play so differently from the game it is in Vintage to something completely unrecognizable.

But, stepping back from it all, this is really a silly debate. "P9" is just a utterly meaningless term in 2007.

Edit - To be clear, when I say "P9" I'm really thinking about Black Lotus and the five Moxen.

Nightmare
01-24-2007, 04:24 PM
If you could play 4 of each Mox, Lotus and Ancestral in Vintage (7 of the P9), Magic would play so differently from the game it is in Vintage so something completely unrecognizable.I'd recognize it from Shandalar.

Complete_Jank
01-24-2007, 04:41 PM
The P9 is not just "good," they bend the rules of the game to the extent that break how the game is structured at its core--which is basically to tinker the limiting rules on mana development (and card drawing to a lesser extent). Which is one of the most important limits in the early game.

If you could play 4 of each Mox, Lotus and Ancestral in Vintage (7 of the P9), Magic would play so differently from the game it is in Vintage to something completely unrecognizable.

I think the following cards are stronger than many of the "Power 9" cards. These cards if allowed to be played as a 4 of would have more effect than the "Power 9" would.
Channel
Fastbond
Trinisphere
Yawgmoth’s Will

Bovinious
01-24-2007, 05:10 PM
Legacy Power 9:

Goblin Lackey
AEther Vial
Reset
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Swords to Plowshares
Duress
Wasteland
Lion's Eye Diamond

xsockmonkeyx
01-24-2007, 05:21 PM
Channel
Tinker
Trinisphere
Yawgmoth’s Will

Fixed :tongue:

Complete_Jank
01-24-2007, 05:53 PM
Tinker is great, but it requires a broken artifact like memory jar or 3-Sphere.

calosso
01-24-2007, 06:53 PM
Anaba Grunt
Diggeridoo
Goblin Lackey
Nimble mongoose
Force Of Will
Aether Vial
Goblin Piledriver
Dark Ritual
Swords to Plowshares
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero

Cait_Sith
01-24-2007, 07:03 PM
Yawgy's Will will own you all. The mechanized demon in that is so cute.

Kadaj
01-24-2007, 07:05 PM
Tinker is great, but it requires a broken artifact like memory jar or 3-Sphere.

Apparently you sir did not play Extended during 2003 before they banned Tinker. I don't think there was ever a more broken constructed environment, and it was based almost entirely on that card (admittedly Oath, Hermit Druid, and the usual goblin suspects were involved as well) but no Tinker does not require a broken artifact to be retarded. All it requires is Mindslaver. Or any other monolithicly large artifact. Or hell, Goblin Charbelcher was ridiculous with Tinker and Mana Severence at that point.

Trinisphere is really irritating to play against, but it is not "broken". Even when it was allowed as a 4 of in Vintage with Workshop and co powering it out on turn 1 with irritating regularity it was not unbeatable. Legacy stax can run 4 Trinispheres and we don't see them dominating Legacy with their brokeness.

Channel and Yawgmoth's Will are obvious. It's actually amusing that Channel on it's own isn't worth a slot because of its color but Yawgmoth's Will continues to dominate the format.

Whatever, the concept of a "power nine" in Legacy is flawed because there are no universal cards that almost automatically go into any deck, but the closest thing is a list of the top cards that are automatically suggested during the deckbuilding construction for each color.

In no particular order:
Swords to Plowshares
Force of Will
Duress
Brainstorm
Lightning Bolt
Rancor
Dark Confidant
Aether Vial
Dark Ritual

Bane of the Living
01-24-2007, 07:14 PM
1. Blue Duals
2. Non-Blue Duals
3. Blue Fetchlands
4. Non-Blue Fetchlands
5. Wasteland
6. Force of Will
7. Aether Vial
8. Dark Ritual
9. Goblin Lackey

The format is totally warped around those cards. If I werent to separate the blue and non-blue lands Id be adding Swords to Plowshares and Survival of the Fittest to that list. LED and Brainstorm trailing closely.

Pithing Needle is close but its a bit short of "format defining". Confidant and Loam are simply extremely good cards.

AnwarA101
01-24-2007, 07:31 PM
This discussion seems to make little or no sense. If you want to make a list of essential cards for the format that is one thing, but comparing it to the Power 9 is inaccurate at best. As far as I know the Power 9 exist for multiple reasons none of which apply to Legacy. First off, these cards were underprinted meaning they only exist in the first 3 sets and no such cards apply to Legacy. Most importantly, they are simply better than the cards they could be compared to. You play Mox Sapphire because its actually better than Island. You play Black Lotus because its actually better than Dark Ritual. Ancestral Recall is the best draw spell ever. We don't have those cards in Legacy. Cards are rarely strictly better than other cards. You can some comparison to cards such as Brainstorm and Dark Ritual, but those cards require color commitments and in the case of Brainstorm often the use of fetchlands. While these may seem like minor points its important to note that with the actual Power 9 this isn't case. They are simply better than the cards that were printed after them in every way that matters. That's why things like Null Rod were printed just to create a drawback to cards like Moxen, but even that didn't prevent people from playing them in Type 1 because the drawback didn't outweigh the potential benefit from playing these cards. That isn't true about cards in Legacy.

Complete_Jank
01-24-2007, 10:34 PM
Apparently you sir did not play Extended during 2003 before they banned Tinker. I don't think there was ever a more broken constructed environment, and it was based almost entirely on that card (admittedly Oath, Hermit Druid, and the usual goblin suspects were involved as well) but no Tinker does not require a broken artifact to be retarded. All it requires is Mindslaver. Or any other monolithicly large artifact. Or hell, Goblin Charbelcher was ridiculous with Tinker and Mana Severence at that point.

Actually that was one of the decks/cards I played in Extended that year, but we were discussing Vintage where it is much weaker than many of the other cards.


Trinisphere is really irritating to play against, but it is not "broken". Even when it was allowed as a 4 of in Vintage with Workshop and co powering it out on turn 1 with irritating regularity it was not unbeatable. Legacy stax can run 4 Trinispheres and we don't see them dominating Legacy with their brokeness.

Vintage Staxs could almost insure a turn one 3-Sphere. FoW was the only out. Most Vintage decks are less land dependent and are artifact mana dependent than Legacy decks. 3-Sphere was restricted for a reason, and once again I was refering to Vintage.

I am only a Legacy player by default. Vintage died out here a few years ago, and we Vintage players started playing Legacy, because we could get more people to play that.


Channel and Yawgmoth's Will are obvious. It's actually amusing that Channel on it's own isn't worth a slot because of its color but Yawgmoth's Will continues to dominate the format.

You obviously never played Type 1 ProsBloom when it was first legal. Prosperity w/Channel > Fireball w/Channel.

Mirrislegend
01-24-2007, 11:20 PM
Almost every card in Legacy does not qualify as a power card. They may define the format, but wouldnt be Legacy's power cards. Power cards warp every metagame, every time they see play. Over time, they may become accepted as part of the metagame, but the fact remains that they are ridiculously unfair decks, all thanks to certain cards.

I'm talking about Goblin Lackey. Imagine Goblins without Lackey. What is this? A deck that abuses Aether Vial worse than anything ever, has incredible disruption, an incredible draw engine, a fast kill, and ridiculous consistency? Without Lackey, Goblins is still playable. And all the natural advantages of the deck are still there, minus the brokenness thats WORSE (in a creature defined format) than dropping 1 or 2 Moxen first turn.

Goblin Lackey is the only Legacy power card. Sadly.

Cavius The Great
01-25-2007, 01:38 PM
The Legacy Power 9 eh? In no particular order (except the number one)


SpatulaOfTheAges

Mr. Nightmare

Lego_Army_Man

InfamousBearAssassin

Finn

Complete_Jank

Goblin Snowman

wastedlife

xsockmonkeyx

Why the hell am I not on that list??

Pinder
01-25-2007, 02:08 PM
Goblin Lackey is the only Legacy power card. Sadly.

While you have point (since this format is built around removing a first turn 1/1), I'm not sure that Lackey is really the most broken card in Goblins.

I would contend that it's Ringleader. A Fact or Fiction that happens to leave behind a 2/2 haste that triggers for Piledriver? Insane. Not to mention that it's hard card advantage in a color that traditionally doesn't get any. How's that for breaking the rules? The ability to power out Gobs and then use Ringleader to refill your hand to power out more is just crazy. I doubt Goblins would be even half as good if Ringleader was banned.

xsockmonkeyx
01-25-2007, 08:12 PM
Why the hell am I not on that list??

Meh. You can have my spot. Im getting errata'ed soon anyway. :laugh:

mikekelley
01-26-2007, 08:40 AM
none of the 1.5 cards being mentioned are really that powerful. i mean come on, every single deck is better with a black lotus in it. same can be said for the corresponding color of mox. time walk and recall are just effing silly.

Neither lackey, ringleader or vial even come close to having an affect anywhere similar to the rest of those. Ringleader is quite strong, yes, but that is because of the deck that it's in.

Hoojo
01-26-2007, 11:43 AM
none of the 1.5 cards being mentioned are really that powerful. i mean come on, every single deck is better with a black lotus in it. same can be said for the corresponding color of mox. time walk and recall are just effing silly.

Neither lackey, ringleader or vial even come close to having an affect anywhere similar to the rest of those. Ringleader is quite strong, yes, but that is because of the deck that it's in.

This lends itself to Mechinus' argument, and part of Bardo's. The only cards we have that improve almost every deck they go into are land cards like duals, fetches, and possibly Wasteland. Though, since two-thirds of the Tier 1 are mono-colored, duals even lose out. Brainstorm would be the only other card that might fit into this definition, but since blue doesn't hold the bar up in Legacy as high as it does in Vintage, it may not fit the echelon.

Jak
01-26-2007, 02:45 PM
This is really more of a discussion of the best cards in the best decks. There is no power 9 in legacy because legacy has so many different kinds of decks. This topic is just silly.

Cait_Sith
01-26-2007, 04:50 PM
This is really more of a discussion of the best cards in the best decks. There is no power 9 in legacy because legacy has so many different kinds of decks. This topic is just silly.

As I have already proven with my post, Legacy has a power 9, until sockmoney's errata becomes official when they unveil the new comprehensive rules. Then Cavius will take over.

mikekelley
01-27-2007, 12:09 AM
This is really more of a discussion of the best cards in the best decks. There is no power 9 in legacy because legacy has so many different kinds of decks. This topic is just silly.

There are also so many different kinds of decks in vintage.

The power nine are the power nine because they warp the game to the point that if you arent playing with most of them, you are at a severe disadvantage in many cases. Nothing can be said like that for any card in 1.5.

Jak
01-27-2007, 01:27 AM
What I was saying was the decks are so diverse in different aggro strategies, combo-control, etc.. To where not many decks run the same card. So that is why why Vintage has a power nine where almost every deck is powered and in Legacy there are so many decks and so many good cards in those decks.

Bardo
01-27-2007, 01:49 AM
What I was saying was the decks are so diverse in different aggro strategies, combo-control, etc.. To where not many decks run the same card. So that is why why Vintage has a power nine where almost every deck is powered and in Legacy there are so many decks and so many good cards in those decks.

It's not because the "decks are diverse;" it's because none of Legacy's cards are so busted that every deck runs them or loses to them.

Jak
01-27-2007, 02:01 AM
Yes that is what I am trying to say is that no cards in the legacy card pool are busted enough to put the in every deck, which makes so many different archtypes and strategies. No decks need to splash for anything like in vintage where I hear it is good to run blue.

SpatulaOfTheAges
01-27-2007, 05:04 PM
No one's really defined what "Power 9" even means. The Power 9 in Vintage aren't the objectively strongest cards or necessarily the most flexible. They're the original defining cards of the format, and that's all.

Bardo
01-27-2007, 06:54 PM
No one's really defined what "Power 9" even means. The Power 9 in Vintage aren't the objectively strongest cards or necessarily the most flexible. They're the original defining cards of the format, and that's all.

Right, right. "Power 9" is just a romantic anachronism that doesn't mean much of anything anymore; unlike it did in 1995.

mogote
01-29-2007, 09:54 AM
The term P9 is hard to translate to the Legacy format, IMO.

There are no cards like Black Lotus, the most extreme in this regard, that are a must-play in all colors and in all decktypes (aggro, aggro-control, control, combo, prison) unless one has a very good reason not to, at least I couldn't think of one except monetary issues or no need for mana.

B.C.
01-29-2007, 11:33 AM
I have heard the (Vintage) Power 9 described as the cards that, after the game was established, were widely recognized as the best and most powerful cards in the game. For those cards, the "Power" level was due either to mana acceleration (Moxes, Lotus) or efficient, undercosted abilities (Blue Power). Keeping with these themes, here is my Legacy Power 9, all of which have been mentioned already:

1. Dark Ritual
2. Force of Will
3. Goblin Lackey
4. Swords To Plowshares
5. Lotus Petal
6. Lion's Eye Diamond
7. Mox Diamond
8. Aether Vial
9. Dark Confidant? (Not sure about this one)

I don't think mana-producing lands belong on this list, simply because they don't do either of the things that "Power" cards do. Also, I left off many cards that have been on a lot of people's lists (Wasteland, Duress, Brainstorm) because although they are good and heavily played in the format, I consider them more utility cards then game breaking or format defining cards. Just my opinion.